May 30, 2025 • 53 mins
What happens when we apply biblical language to modern business concepts? Attorney Colin Hoffman joins Tim and Jack to challenge how Christian leaders use marketplace terminology and offers a refreshing biblical perspective on leadership development.
• Integrating faith in the marketplace through daily devotionals and Christ-centered business practices
• Using biblical language instead of business terminology – how "name" in Scripture relates to modern concept of "brand"
• Name changes in the Bible (Abraham, Israel, Peter) represent divine identity transformation similar to baptism
• John 17 as a perfect model of project management and leadership handoff from Jesus to God the Father
• Implementing Christian principles in legal practice through mediation clauses based on 1 Corinthians 6
• Creating high-trust business relationships by applying biblical wisdom to contracts, client relationships, and conflict resolution
• Christian business leaders serving as shepherds to employees and missionaries in places traditional ministry cannot reach.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
We are honored when people have a difference of
opinion and would love to comeon and talk about it, because
every time we do, we find waymore things that we agree on,
namely Christ and Him crucified,than we disagree on.
This is Lead Time.
Welcome to Lead Time.
This is Tim Allman, JackKalberg also in the house.
Jack, you're loving life,feeling good, Are your allergies
(00:22):
?
Everybody worries about yourallergies, Jack.
You bring that up all the time.
You're so high maintenance.
I know, I know.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
It's a season right now.
The good news is I've beengoing through this immunotherapy
.
They give you these allergyshots and it's like 2%, 3%,
better every time I get a shot.
It's just really slow, though.
So you know, notice it when youlook at like a six month period
of time.
So I would say like right nowwe're in probably the worst
(00:49):
season for allergies and I don'tfeel like I'm going to die
anymore.
So that's really good.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
It's just very uncomfortable.
Speaker 4 (00:55):
Yeah, all things considered, I've been sorry.
I paid attention to yourprogress a little bit over the
last couple of weeks and I wasthinking about getting allergy
shots myself, and so this is thereal reason why I tune in
really, of course is to getallergy relief help.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Good for nothing else here at Lead Time other than
allergy support.
Anyway, I want to introduce ourguest, Colin Hoffman.
Colin is an attorney, aChristian business leader.
He is in church law and we'regoing to get into his vocation
in the marketplace in probablythe second half of our
conversation.
(01:31):
That'll be super fun, but Colinreached out to me via text.
I'll let you know where I waswhen you text me.
I was watching the DenverBroncos play this past fall on a
Thursday night game with my son.
Past fall on a Thursday nightgame with my son, or Monday
night game, I think it was.
And I get this text from thisguy and he was very, very kind,
(01:53):
very cordial, because I put outmy text on my cell phone on the
On the Line podcast with BrianStecker, who's going to be on
the podcast here soon.
And you sent me a super kindemail but you had one kind of
point of clarification.
A super kind email, but you hadone kind of point of
clarification.
You were concerned that I wasusing secular leadership
language to explain theologicalconcepts and that was.
I was like, oh, that'sfascinating, let's, let's get
(02:13):
together and talk.
And you said, hey, I'm a partof the Wells congregation in
Wisconsin, Evangelical LutheranSynod congregation and I was
like, wow, this guy sounds,sounds, fascinating.
And then you told me that youme that you're an attorney and
man, this is.
And then I understood why youcare about language so much,
which it really matters, Right,so good stuff.
Say more about that, Colin.
(02:33):
Welcome to the podcast man,Thank you.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
Thank you so much.
Yeah, I found out about youguys from on the line and I've
listened to you guys ever since.
But yeah, I was actually alittle bit dismayed when you
were like, oh yeah, come on andtalk about language usage,
because I feel it is actuallykind of pedantic and I, even
though I'm an attorney, I don'treally love to talk about
(02:56):
pedantic topics.
But, all things considered,this is actually something that
is important to me, and I thinkit's whether or not somebody
takes this discussion andchanges the way they talk.
I don't really care too much,but I just want to give some
perspective on some of thesethings.
So, as an attorney, I wasactually drawn into contract law
(03:18):
.
I had a background in computerscience and so I found contracts
to be very fascinating becausethey're kind of programming for
human relationships, and so it'sactually fascinating to me in
contracts.
People think of contracts asonerous and kind of an
enslavement to certain terms,but if it's done right, it is
(03:42):
actually setting up boundariesin a relationship.
It is actually settingexpectations for how a
relationship is going toprogress.
And the most important thingwith a contract is actually it
sets up conflict resolutionbefore conflict takes place,
which is really importantbecause once conflict begins,
agreeing on how to resolve thatconflict goes down the drain
(04:05):
right with all of the goodwill,and once insults start getting
thrown, it's so hard.
I got into contract law.
I learned a lot about contractlaw and in contracts language is
everything and, mostimportantly, it's, like I said,
it's expectations.
If the parties understand thelanguage of the contract well,
they won't need to go to courtover it, because they understand
(04:27):
what's going on and they,especially Christians, try to
abide by their word.
And then, of course, languageis important to the courts
because the courts understandlanguage to be something else.
The courts will generally tryto understand what the
intentions of the parties are,but they fall back upon legal
understandings of certain words.
So after I became a ChristianI'm in the middle of law school
(04:48):
I started realizing that so muchof what I had learned about the
world was wrong, obviously.
And God introduced me to thiswonderful.
Well, I, you know, I startedreading the Bible and everything
, but I was reintroduced to whatGod was saying and I was like
fascinated.
I was like this is all, likethis is incredible wisdom and
(05:08):
just applying to like everyfacet of life I mean, as a
lawyer, I loved Leviticus.
We don't need to get into allthat, but even I actually
learned health law, and soLeviticus was.
I was shocked at how good thehealth and sanitation laws were
in Leviticus and LeviticusDeuteronomy Numbers they had
criminal laws that I think weresimpler and better than our
(05:31):
criminal laws, but anyway.
So I wanted to.
I was interested in languagebecause I think you guys are
developing Christian leaders ina very you guys are intentional
about that and you're doing alot of great things, and so I
think just a little bit ofcherry on top or actually more
than that, it's a lot offoundation here is using the
words that God gives us in theBible to reinforce biblical
(05:52):
principles in your leaders andalso draw upon what we learn in
the Bible to essentially abideby business principles that are
pleasing to God.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Yeah, no, that's good .
Very good, that's good, I agree.
Tell me that's good.
Very good, that's good, I agree.
Tell me, tell the story.
How'd you come to faith at lawschool?
Like what was that?
Can you tell that in kind of acondensed-ish version?
Like that's wild, that'sawesome, praise.
Speaker 4 (06:12):
God.
So I am a recovered alcoholicand let's so you know the, you
know the prodigal son.
Well, god had given me a greatjob with Epic and I was a
software developer projectmanager and so I was making a
good amount of money.
And then I ended up going tolaw school because I had seen
(06:33):
that there were some issues.
I originally wanted to helppatients developing software
tools.
Anyway, I found that while Iwas there I wasn't actually
helping the patients as much.
So I thought, well, maybe ifI'm a lawyer I can help guide
these laws and regulations tothat, but I'm still living the
life of the prodigal son, allthings according to the prodigal
son.
And then I got really badlyinjured due to really bad
(06:58):
missteps in my walk as aprodigal son, ended up with a
concussion that I think probablyshould have, maybe should have
killed me.
God would.
I felt that God was.
So.
I had short-term memory lossfor over a month and I the
doctors told me it could lastweeks or years and I was
actually in a recovery groupwith a guy who had was on like
(07:19):
year two of short-term memoryloss and essentially I knew that
if this persisted I would haveto drop out of law school and,
frankly, I wouldn't be able todo very much intellectual work
at all.
And so, and I don't know, Ireally think God stepped into my
life at that point and so Istarted.
Just, I couldn't listen to musicbecause of the head trauma.
I couldn't watch TV or stuff onmy phone, so I was supposed to,
(07:41):
I had to, like, stare at thewall.
So in staring at the wall Iwould sometimes pray, like I
hadn't prayed seriously in awhile, and so I pray.
And then I once I started beingcomfortable listening to things
, I started listening to theBible, and God had put some
miracles in my life, you know.
And then, oh yeah, short-termmemory loss, my memory came back
like fully about 10 days beforefinals started, and in law
(08:04):
school, back like fully about 10days before finals started, and
in law school, finals are thelike all of your grade.
So it was, it was a realmiracle what happened.
And so I was originallyplanning to be a health law
attorney, a business lawattorney, and still still am.
But I, but you know, god hascalled me in a direction and I,
you know, I just feel like Igotta, I gotta go where he calls
me.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
So yeah, so is there someone that discipled you, told
you the story, or is it solelythrough just listening to the
Bible You're like?
I think Jesus is the way thetruth and the life I grew up.
Speaker 4 (08:33):
I grew up in the LCMS church, so I grew up in the.
In the LCMS church I fell awayin in undergrad, where a lot of
people, probably for the samereasons as other people, and so
I was very familiar with thestories or the accounts.
So I had actually even startedreading the Bible again in 2018,
(08:58):
before I started law school,just because I was wrestling
with my alcoholism and trying tofigure out what was know, what
was going on in the world.
And there, between that andwhen God started really moving
in my life, I had some bizarreexperiences which is a story for
another time that had convincedme that evil, like evil, was
real, like you know, someexperiences with, like you know,
(09:21):
like, probably demons, soanyway, you know.
So once those doors startopening, you're like I got to, I
got to figure out you know Igot demons, so anyway, you know.
So, once, once those doors startopening, you're like I gotta, I
gotta figure out.
You know, I gotta figure outwhat the truth is here, what's
going on, and clearly we knowthat that God is real and that
that Jesus is our savior, andyeah, so, and that, yeah,
amazing bro.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Yeah Well, welcome back.
Welcome back home, man.
We celebrate and welcoming youback and now using your vocation
, I should have asked are youmarried with children or
anything?
Speaker 4 (09:50):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That was one of the miraclesGod blessed me with.
You know, when the prodigal soncomes home, he puts a robe over
his son and puts a ring on hisfinger.
Well, god, you know, god gaveme the woman who is my wife.
So, yeah, we're, we're happilymarried.
We got a two year old daughter.
She's well.
She's turning two in a coupleof weeks.
(10:10):
So congrats, man.
Yeah, that's.
That's been a huge blessing.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
What a what a celebration.
And now getting to use your,your newfound Holy Spirit
inspired passion for the gospelto change your community and to
change families.
And we're going to get to that.
But let's go into.
You wanted to make sure wetalked about Jesus as leader
connected to John 17.
Want to take us into that andwe'll use that as a launching
(10:35):
off point for our conversation.
So I don't know exactly what Isaid on Brian.
I said a lot of things.
It was like a two hour.
We just kept going.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
But if you even remember some of the things that
I had said, they were like, Idon't know if I'd there were a
couple words that I think couldbe discussed a little bit better
.
And not that it's your fault,you know that you've done
anything wrong.
I just, you know, let's sharpenthe saw a little bit, you know.
So you were discussing brand.
At one point you guys were inthe middle of a rebrand or you
(11:19):
guys had helped someone with arebrand or something like that.
And you know I studied a lot ofIP law.
Brand is really importantTrademarks, trade names and you
know that it's important tomaintain your creative works.
If they're under your brand,you want to make sure that
they're represented well andthings like that.
But you know, as I read theBible, god actually seems to
(11:42):
have a different way ofdiscussing brand.
So God does talk about brand alot, as you guys know.
You know the word he uses forhis brand right, oh, it's name.
He says his name, yeah and soand so he.
I mean, and of course that's.
You know there's the Hebrewword for name and the Greek word
for name.
But you know, you know the newking james version, um
(12:05):
translates it to name, as wellas the most of the other
translations do too, and so wesay in the lord's prayer
hallowed be your name.
You know, essentially your nameis holy and um, I think brand
is.
Actually.
In modern english, brand isactually a closer approximation
to name than than what use asname.
We consider name to be like alabel, whereas brand is so much
(12:29):
more.
It is a reputation, althoughbrand usually comes with a
little bit of artistic thing,and it usually I don't.
The reason why I think Biblesdon't use the word brand is
because brand is also associatedwith like changing a lot.
Like you can change your brand,like oh, we're this brand today
and then we change our brand,et cetera.
So name is, you know God's nameis permanent, but it is good,
(12:50):
and you know we, if we just swapout the word name for brand,
like your brand is holy, youknow your brand is good, you
know we trust in your brand.
You know things like that.
It's like if you go to thestore and you're trying to
choose between, let's say, themost important toilet paper of
(13:10):
your life, and you know thatthere's one brand that is like
you know they have always donegood, you're like, well, yeah,
we'll pick that brand.
You know your brand is good,your brand is holy.
But then where this comes inand being really important is
you can start reading how Goduses our brand, our name, in the
Bible.
So I'm going to read reallyquickly Psalm 23.
(13:32):
You guys are probably familiar.
The Lord is my shepherd.
I shall not want he makes me tolie down in green pastures.
He leads me beside the stillwaters.
He restores my soul.
He leads me in the paths of.
He restores my soul.
He leads me in the paths ofrighteousness for his name's
sake.
So that last verse there, heleads me in paths of
(13:53):
righteousness for his name'ssake.
I'm going to just read one otherthing here Jeremiah 14, verse
19 through 21.
I'm just going to kind of pullhalf of 19, half of 21.
We look for peace, but therewas no good, and for the time of
healing and there was trouble.
We acknowledge, o Lord, ourwickedness and the iniquity of
(14:14):
our fathers, for we have sinnedagainst you.
Do not abhor us for yournamesake, do not disgrace the
throne of your glory.
So they're saying there do notabhor us for your namesake.
And in the previous one he saidhe leads me in the paths of
righteousness for his namesakePlace, the name name with brand
for his brand's sake.
Why is brand so important hereis because Psalm 23, david is
(14:38):
the head of his brand on earthat this point in time.
And in Jeremiah, the people whoJeremiah is lamenting over are
the people who are under hisbrand.
So what they're saying is likeGod, this is your brand, we are
part of your brand.
We have messed up, but we stillwant to see your brand
glorified.
(14:58):
And so, because we're part ofthat which they're not giving,
they're not, you know, givinginto any judgment of how God has
chosen such awful brand bearers.
But you know, god chose me aswell, so it's like, you know I'm
.
I'm not looking that deep intothat either, so, but you know
says, for your brand sake, youknow, for your name sake.
And so as we read the Bible, wecan see how even Jesus talks
(15:21):
about God's brand, god's name,and so as we pursue branding in
our churches, christianbusinesses, you see how God sees
name Also really quickly onthat, brands change.
So we say, well, god's namedoesn't change.
However, god changes the namesof those who he calls.
So Abram, his name is changedto Abraham.
(15:41):
Jacob, his name is changed toIsrael.
Jacob was a deceptive, wily guy.
Israel was the father of Israel, of course, and God had changed
him after wrestling with himand changing who he was.
So, actually, jacob's brandliterally changed when he became
(16:02):
Israel.
And then, of course, peopleknow, simon became Peter.
Jesus is like oh, you're notPeter anymore, we're going to
call you the rock.
So Saul becomes Paul, exactly.
And, yeah, james and Johnbecome the sons of thunder.
And so Jesus does actuallychange our brand when we, when
(16:22):
we come into business, intoliving with him.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
Well, I would say, baptism is where we get a brand
new name.
Right, god places his name uponus, that's.
That's the audacious reality ofour brand change from sinner
into saint by grace, throughfaith, jack any response A
baptismal name to go along withbaptism, right?
Speaker 3 (16:42):
That that's really when we think of the time of
that name being applied to us.
So this is fascinating, youknow, when you, if you think
about the petitions of the Lordprayer, you say hallowed be thy
name, that makes sense.
If you said hallowed be thybrand, that would seem terrible.
But if you say hallowed be thyreputation, that actually makes
a lot of sense.
That now you, now you havebasically a very similar meaning
(17:03):
in that, and I think that'sreally what we've always hoped
to press in on with the conceptof brand is that brand is not
about logo per se, althoughlogos can communicate a lot,
right, really, what it is brandshould be almost all of the
times.
Thought about what yourreputation is.
The way that we measure brandis by what people say about us,
(17:24):
right, and how Jesus measured it.
He actually measured it, heasked the disciples what are the
people saying about me?
Right, and now you hear allthese stories.
Some people say you're ElijahAll these, you know.
Some people say you're John theBaptist Right, so there's this
brand floating out there andJesus actually is is revealing
that through the conversation,what this current brand is.
And then he asks them what doyou say?
(17:48):
So, what is the brand now ofthe disciples?
Right, what is it that they'resaying about him?
Right, that you're the Messiah,right?
So I think that's a reallyfascinating way to think about
brand and maybe actually doeshelp us as church leaders know
that brand is actually a type ofreality that the early church
dealt with, that Jesus dealtwith as he was discipling people
and you know, starting the verybeginning of his church, his
(18:09):
ministry on earth, and what wedeal with as church leaders.
The church has a brand, right?
You could say that the globalchurch has a brand.
Certain denominations have abrand.
It's interesting hearing peopletalk about like our own, our own
, like the LCMS.
What is our brand?
Right?
There's people who are veryconservative Bible believers
(18:30):
that have a very, very high viewof the LCMS.
This is fascinating.
I've heard it represented thisway A very, very high view of
the LCMS and its view ofpreserving the inerrancy of
scripture, but then also, likekind of questioning maybe, some
of our hospitality with how wedeal with people online.
Right, well, and that's that's,that's part of our brand now,
(18:50):
right, because that's whatsometimes people are saying
about us, right, well, sointerestingly enough, you said
it would seem weird to sayhallowed be your brand or brand.
Speaker 4 (18:59):
Interestingly enough, you said it would seem weird to
say hallowed be your brand orhallowed be your brand.
But think about so.
When you say hallowed be yourbrand, it's very weird because
it creates this corporatelanguage.
But here's the thing is you, weare under God's brand, just as
the Israelites were, just asDavid was, and he says for your
namesake, and so you knowsomething to consider.
(19:19):
Is you know you?
He says for your name's sake,and so you know something to
consider.
Is you know you?
You were obviously talkingabout your church's brand, your
denominations brand, and youknow how you, as a leader in
that, represent that.
But you have to remember youknow how it'd be your brand in
the Lord's prayer.
It's like we have to recognizethat we represent God's brand on
earth and it's kind of saying,like God, we are striving to
(19:43):
keep your reputation holy in ourlives and as we represent
ourselves to the community.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
And the early church had a brand and it had two
simultaneous brands at the sametime.
One brand was these are thepeople that are failing to
glorify the emperor, and theother brand is here's the people
that love each other.
Isn't that interesting thatboth of these brands existed at
the same time and society waswrestling with these two things?
That was part of the church'sbrand.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Yeah.
Well, going back to Jesus, whatgot Jesus killed is he
connected his brand, his name,so intimately to the father's
name, to Yahweh's name.
That's the audacity of the dualnature of Christ.
At the very same time, how cana man claim to be God?
Well, this man came downbecause the brand of Israel,
carrying the message of God'slove to the nations, has been
(20:35):
compromised.
They've taken on the brand ofother gods when there is only
one, when there is only one God.
So I'm curious, colin, and youcan quote me, I'm always
learning.
So what did I say on the linethat led you to say we could be
a little tighter?
Did I just not make the logicaljump from what people say about
you, your reputation, whenyou're not in the room, back to
back to the Old Testament,because I agree with everything
(20:57):
we've said up to this point.
Speaker 4 (20:58):
No, actually.
So that wasn't actually thething that got my gears turning.
That was something that I justthink we could sharpen the saw
Okay cool.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
What did I say?
That got your gears going.
Speaker 4 (21:08):
So the thing that you said that got my gears turning
is when you talked about yourleadership accelerator that you
had put together, and that was awhile back, so I don't know if
you still call it a leadershipaccelerator.
But, having been in the startupspace, I w, I was I in law
school, I was working for thelaw and entrepreneurship clinic,
which worked with a lot ofsmall businesses and especially
(21:31):
works kind of in collaborationwith an accelerator slash
incubator out of Madison, and soyou use the term accelerator
and and I didn't know if youwere using the Silicon Valley
term accelerator or if you wereusing what you thought
accelerator meant.
But essentially, long storyshort, accelerator.
So in Silicon Valley, like thehigh tech space, you've got
(21:54):
incubators and accelerators.
Incubators are the things thathelp a new business bring a
product or service to market,and an accelerator goes from
entry into the market toexpansion of the market or into
the market.
So when you said a leadershipaccelerator now I don't know a
ton about it I kind of said tomyself does he actually mean
something that is like anaccelerator for people bringing
(22:17):
their leadership to market orsomething, or is this just an
accelerated leadership course?
Speaker 3 (22:22):
No, it's actually we are deriving the Silicon Valley
model here.
Now, when we started using that, the term incubator wasn't as
common.
It was kind of like just the itwas.
We were using accelerator asthe blanket term, but you would
probably say that there was acombination of incubator style
learnings as well as acceleratorstyle stuff.
Depending on is very contextual, because we would get cohorts
(22:44):
of churches together and they'reall in different levels of
their leadership, development,maturity in terms of their
systems and culture andstructure, and some some people
are starting from zero andthey're learning from the more
mature churches.
Some of the more maturechurches already have something
in place and they're doingrefinement work on it.
So we just generically use theterm accelerator because we're
(23:05):
using a lot of the techniquesthat they would use in the
Silicon.
Valley accelerator to do thatmethodologies.
Speaker 4 (23:10):
But I guess you know I this struck me because I am,
like I said, I'm familiar withthose and the thing that always,
you know, I was taught when Istarted learning Scrum, you know
, essentially it said yourmanagement, the tools and the
(23:31):
management style should align.
So if you change your tools,the management style needs to
change.
If the management style changes, the tools need to change as
well, and so tools are alwayschanging.
So you think management stylechanges a lot too, and so I
guess.
But from my perspective is, youknow, these things change a lot
, and I just think I don't havea super clear answer on this and
(23:55):
I was really praying about thisto try to bring the answer.
I don't have the answer, but Ihave a lot here which I want to
go over.
But you know, when we, when werely on Silicon Valley
terminology, techniques, whilethey are generally better than
you know, there's a ton ofthings that the church just
doesn't understand, like a lotof times in these development
(24:16):
spaces there, yes, they'rereading the Bible, but their
understanding of things is likepretty minimal.
So you know they they're thethings that are in the Bible
that should be instructing themon how to lead are just absent.
So you know, silicon Valleytechniques are better than
nothing, but I think we can dobetter in developing Christian
principles that meet the samegoals, meet the same principles.
(24:39):
And actually, one thing that youguys were talking about with
Brian Stecker or Tim you weretalking about with Brian Stecker
is he was talking about OKRobjectives and key results.
Right, and there are otherterminologies for this, like
when we were doing some.
Like one time in theconversation they used the STAR
method, situation, task, action,results.
But what I'm highlighting hereis there's a bunch of different
(25:01):
words that are used, a bunch ofdifferent principles and stuff,
and if we lean on biblicalprinciples, it's like the wise
man building his house on therock.
Right, these words are going tochange the world is going to
change the way that they usetheir terms accelerator and
incubator.
You're saying incubator wasn'twidely used at that time, but
you know it is.
(25:21):
Maybe it is now, but in 20years it will be something else
and if your name stays as anaccelerator, they're going to be
like what, yeah, yeah, thebrand of it.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
you know we have to well that.
That gets to the point of it.
I would say the most importantthing as a principle that we
teach people in our accelerators, or whatever we choose to brand
them in the future, is the wecall it the build measure learn
mindset right.
And so the whole point is thatwithin the scope of ministry,
you have a lot of freedom tobuild programs, to understand
(25:50):
what are the most effective waysthat the church can collaborate
to reach people, be able toshare the gospel with more
people, build relationships withmore people, engage with people
more effectively.
These are all areas ofadiaphora and a lot of times, a
lot of the times, the way thatthings used to work in terms of
how we build fellowship andreach communities and
communicate about certain topics.
(26:11):
They work for a season, theydon't work for another season.
And with the change in culture,the change in technology, it
seems like things are changingdramatically and we have to
build churches and ministriesthat are dynamic enough that the
eternal, unchanging word of thegospel can be applied in a more
flexible way to people, right?
Speaker 4 (26:31):
So Especially around that where there is flexibility,
because God puts differentgifts and different people in
different places.
I actually want to go to one ofthe answers that I found was
John 17.
Okay, john 17,.
Jesus is praying at the Gardenof Gethsemane, which is it's
(26:54):
amazing that we were given thistime to talk over Holy Week,
given this time to talk overHoly Week, but because this is
Jesus praying at the Garden ofGethsemane Thursday night after
his last meal, so I'm just goingto read it.
Actually, let me just give alittle bit of background.
So what I found in John 17 isJesus, in John 17, praying in
the Garden of Gethsemane.
(27:15):
He is doing a project handoff toGod.
He is doing a lot of thingshere, but one of the things he's
doing is he's doing a projecthandoff to God.
He is doing a lot of thingshere, but one of the things he's
doing is he's doing a projecthandoff to God, and I'll
highlight these points.
But in this project handoffthat he does, he does an
executive level summary over hismission and you'll see that he
starts off with resources andobjectives and goals and he goes
(27:37):
into results and then he goesinto goals and future goals big
picture goals as well.
And of course people don't seeit like this, and it's best you
don't need to see it like this.
It's only important for peoplewho would find value in it.
But let me just read it andjust kind of go through it here
a bit.
(27:57):
And this is the New King JamesVersion.
Jesus spoke these words, liftedup his eyes to heaven and said
Father, the hour has come,glorify your son, that your son
also may glorify you, as youhave given him authority over
all flesh, that he should giveeternal life to as many as you
have given him and this iseternal life that they may know
you, the only true God in JesusChrist, whom you have sent.
(28:20):
Hold on right there, I'm justgoing to pause quickly.
So this is him.
The hour has come, you know.
Glorify your son.
That your son may glorify you.
You know he's saying the hour'scome, I move on to you know,
being the sacrifice and startingon the next part of this
ministry, this thing that youhave for me.
And so he just kind of gives anopening there and then he says
(28:43):
I have glorified you on theearth, I have finished the work
which you have given me to doand now, oh, father, glorify me
together with yourself, with theglory which I had with you
before the world was.
I have manifested your name tothe men whom you have given me
out of the world.
They were yours, you gave themto me and they have kept your
word.
Now they have.
(29:03):
So this is objective startingresources objective.
And he says you know, I amsuccessful, this objective has
(29:24):
been completed.
So he then says I pray for them.
I do not pray for the world,but for those whom you have
given me, for they are yours.
Just going to stop right there,he says I pray for them, really
quickly.
Pray also means request.
I pray for them, I you them, Iseek blessings for them, I pray.
He says I do not pray for theworld, but for those you have
(29:44):
given me.
So he's saying specificallyright now, I'm just talking
about these guys.
All right, now I am no longerin the world, but these are in
the world and I come to you,holy Father, keep through your
name those whom you have givenme, that they may be one, as we
are, while I was with them inthe world.
Wait, hold on really quickly.
So, um, let's see, okay, no,I'm going to keep going, sorry.
(30:07):
Okay, while I was with them inthe world, I kept them in your
name.
Those whom you gave me, I havekept, and none of them is lost,
except the son of perdition,that the scripture might be
fulfilled.
So there, he's actually goingmore into the results there and
actually, as you would see, in ahigh level or in any executive
summary, you say, okay, thereseems to be a little failure
(30:30):
here.
I've delivered all of them toyou.
But he's saying but wheneveryou do a summary, whenever
you're doing these accounting,you say, okay, there is
something, there's a blip in theresults here.
Let's explain that.
He says there's one person whowas not delivered.
That's the son of perdition,that's Judas, and it was because
prophecy said that.
So it's actually fulfillment ofprophecy.
(30:52):
It's not actually a failure,and that's what you do in
project management.
You say there's a blip here,seems like it may seem like a
problem, but we're actually blah, blah, blah.
This is why it's not really aproblem, it's being taken care
of.
So he's doing that there.
He's giving more discreteresults.
So all right.
But now I come to you and thesethings I speak in the world that
(31:13):
they may have my joy fulfilledin themselves, I have given them
your word and the world hashated them because they are not
of the world, just as I am notof the world.
I do not pray that you shouldtake them out of the world, but
that you should keep them fromthe evil one.
They are not of the world, justas I am not of the world.
Sanctify them by your truth.
(31:34):
Your word is truth.
As you have sent me into theworld, I also have sent them
into the world and for theirsakes I sanctify myself that
they also may be sanctified bythe truth.
There he is saying.
He is saying, okay, next stepsfor them.
I'm sending them out into theworld.
God, they've done a great jobso far, which just a kind of a
(31:55):
side note there.
This is Thursday night, afterthe Passover meal.
They have not done a good joband in fact they are not going
to do a good job the next dayeither.
You know, there's a little bithere in terms of leadership,
where Jesus is saying he isnonetheless praising his
subordinates here, his disciples, even though they're still a
mess, but they're a mess inprogress, and he's praising them
(32:18):
to the higher up, to God, theFather, but anyway, he says here
, even though they've done goodwork, god, their time's not done
.
Don't snatch them out of theworld.
I just pray that as you guidethem, you keep them from the
evil one.
I'm sending them out into theworld and I pray that you bless
them in that mission.
All right, so then he goes onand says so.
Then he continues praying forthe big picture goals.
(32:40):
He says I do not pray for thesealone, but also for those who
will believe in me through theirword, that they all may be one,
as you, father, are in me and Iin you.
That they also may be one in us.
That the world may believe thatyou sent me and the glory which
you gave me I have given them.
That they may be one just as weare one, I in them and you in
(33:01):
me.
That they may be made perfectin one.
And that the world may knowthat you have sent me and have
loved them as you have loved me,father.
I desire that they also, whoyou gave me, be with me where I
am, that they may behold myglory, which you have given me,
for you loved me before thefoundation of the world.
Oh, righteous father, the worldhas not known you, but I have
(33:24):
known you and these have knownthat you sent me and I have
declared them.
I have declared to them yourname, your brand, of course, and
will declare it that the lovewith which you loved me may be
in them and I in them.
So that last couple paragraphsthere he says okay, beyond these
(33:44):
next goals and objectives,we're broadening.
And I'm now praying, I'm nowrequesting God that in these
future goals, that you alsocarry out this blessing with
those who come after them.
And he says you know, themission was that these people
that come to know me come toknow the Father, that they be
with us in heaven.
(34:05):
And so you know.
He says you know, as a resultof that, I ask for that as well.
And so, essentially, this lastpart here is he talks about
bigger goals and the bigger,wider next steps.
So, anyway, that's the end ofJohn 17.
I think it is a.
Really.
You know, I was praying abouthow are we going to?
What is a?
Is there any good role model inthe Bible about you know how to
(34:26):
give account of projects or doproject management?
And I think John 17 is is areally great, perfect model,
perhaps Very good.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
Hey, thanks for the devotional, colin.
I was just like taking that inon Holy Week.
I'm going to be telling a lotof people that story and the
thing that always strikes meabout John 17,.
Jesus talks about joy and Jesustalks about love.
Those are the postures of theheart of the disciples and Jesus
who, for the joy set before him, we were his joy and those who
would come.
And Jesus talks about love.
Those are the postures of theheart of the disciples and Jesus
who, for the joy set before him, we were his joy and those who
would come after us because ofour proclaimed word would find
(35:01):
that joy as they believe in whatJesus came to do.
And I sometimes struggle withand we talked about it a lot,
you've heard us, if you'velistened to us at all the
confession of the worddisconnected from the sending
nature of God.
And I think we can tighten upour language as confessional
Lutherans who confess a puredoctrine and the purpose of that
(35:25):
pure doctrine.
And I think John 17 is awonderful, wonderful place for
us to unite because that'sJesus's word.
Right?
This is a podcast of UniteLeadership Collective and we.
He's made his outcomes clear ofwhat he sees.
The outcomes are very clear andthere's more people who need
that.
They all may be one Like what'sthe?
What's the end goal?
It's that every person wouldcome to know the saving love of
(35:47):
God.
Who did Jesus die for?
He died for the sins of theentire world.
And so, as our posture is asChristians all of the baptized,
in all of our differentvocations is it for one more,
one more multiple familiescoming?
And you see this engage in thebook of Acts 3,000 in one day,
whole households being changed,like the vision that Jesus left
(36:07):
in John 17, inspired by and, Iwould say, accelerated by, the
Holy Spirit, moved the people ofGod in mighty mission to make
him known, even at the loss oflife.
And we see that very early inthe story Like, this is life and
death stuff here, and theChristians are like, yeah,
exactly, eternity is on the lineand God has come and he has
(36:29):
spoken, and all we want to do isget his word in all of our
different vocations out into theworld.
This is the charge, and it'snot just 17, right, it's at the
very end, or the new beginningin the Great Commission and in
then Jesus's words right beforehis ascension, you will be
martyred, witnesses, jerusalem,judea, samaria, to the ends of
(36:49):
the earth.
Like the vision that Jesus leftwas so profound, and I guess,
if you're going to summarize oneof our points of emphasis on
our podcast over a long periodof time is leaders need to be
aligned by the Spirit's power tothe mighty mission vision of
God who is going out into theworld to make him known.
There are so many Collins out inthe world right now, bro, that
(37:10):
are wondering is the church forme?
Does the church have a placefor me?
And obviously the answer is yes, because Jesus has a place for
you and we are his livingmanifestation on the earth.
Hopefully, our posture is love,and the outcome of the love of
God for us is robust joy thatnothing in this world can steal
from us.
(37:30):
So thank you for taking usthrough that devotional call and
response.
Speaker 4 (37:34):
Yeah, actually you got me really fired up on that,
as you do when you get on a rollthere.
You got me really fired up.
You were saying that you knowthat we must proclaim Jesus
Christ, and one thing that hasbeen interesting to me is how
much we can harvest in ournormal jobs.
(37:54):
And when we talk about thatpeople think, oh well, I can
just bring my coworkers tochurch and stuff like that.
But there's actually adifferent thing we can do here
is if we are working forChristian organizations, then
church doesn't end on Sunday.
It actually I do with myparalegals and other attorneys
(38:17):
in collaboration.
We do devotionals throughoutthe week.
We do Monday, wednesday, fridaydevotionals in the morning and
we kind of make it some homeworkthat the leaders will try to
bring a passage for everydevotion and God speaks to us
through those devotions and thenwhen we start our day with that
, god's mission for us in thatday becomes a lot clearer.
(38:39):
And there's a lot more you cando in professing Christ to the
marketplace when you have thefull support of your institution
, your company, yourorganization to handle money the
way Jesus wants you to handlemoney organization to.
You know to handle money theway Jesus wants you to handle
money to, you know, be able togive your clients the treatment
(39:00):
that Jesus wants us to give them.
And then, especially whenyou're serving Christians,
having the biblical clarity tonot just serve the client but
serve the client according towhat God wants for them.
Because you know there are somany.
You know when we're talking withour brothers and sisters in
church, you know there are somany.
You know when we're talkingwith our brothers and sisters in
church, you know if they starttalking about something that
they want to do, that theyreally want to do, but you're
like you know what that soundsdangerous or like that doesn't
(39:23):
seem like a good route to go, wewould say hold on, why don't
you do this instead?
And so you know something thatI think has been awesome, for
what God has called me into iswhen is as I, as I counsel
Christians in their legalstruggles, I can tell them, like
I know, that this is what yousay you want.
But you know, let's talk aboutit, let's pray about it and
(39:44):
let's consider what God wants.
And you know the Bible saysthat this is what he wants us to
do in these roles.
This is how he wants us torelate to others, what he wants
us to do in these roles.
This is how he wants us torelate to others.
And and you know, in and whenyou start doing that, then you
say you know, you see that, oh,there's a big trial coming up
and it looks awful, and youdon't know how you're going to
get through it.
And so you know you.
Then you can pray, you know youpray with the clients as long
(40:07):
as you need to, and just youknow.
Pray God, deliver.
Deliver us, because accordingto your brand, according to your
name, according to your brand,why are you setting us on this
mission?
Why do you have this in ourlives?
You clearly aren't just settingus up for failure.
That's not your brand.
You're setting us up to dogreat things.
And so deliver us God, becausethis seems treacherous.
(40:29):
So having that Christianbusiness, that in the
marketplace Christian, whetherit be nonprofit business or, you
know, church as well it givesyou a lot more.
It gives you all the arrows inthe quiver to proclaim Christ
into the marketplace.
Speaker 3 (40:44):
Sometimes, in the law right, there's opportunities to
cause harm to another personthrough a legal process.
There's opportunities to takeadvantage of other people
through a legal process.
There's opportunities to takeadvantage of other people
through a legal process, and Ithink it's powerful that there
would be Christians serving inthat role, saying wait a minute,
just because you can dosomething doesn't mean that you
should do something.
Speaker 4 (41:03):
Right.
Well, I mean, think about.
Think about this you, if you'regetting into a contractual
relationship to take advantageof somebody, right, it's clearly
not a long term relationship,because once you take advantage
of them, it's clearly not along-term relationship, because
once you take advantage of them,you are going to destroy the
relationship and you're going totake from them in a way that is
detrimental to them.
So it's not when you havemutually beneficial
(41:24):
relationships, both parties growbeneficially and actually
develop more business and morebusiness together.
So one thing that we actually do, you know, reading the Bible, I
see 1 Corinthians 6, brethrendo not sue brethren.
And it says why don't we suebrethren?
Well, it's because God hasgiven you all the wisdom, like
he has given you the purestwisdom, the best wisdom.
(41:46):
Why do you think that a judgewill be better to resolve your
conflicts than somebody in yourchurch?
The judge hasn't been given theword of God, he hasn't been
given wisdom.
It's your church.
So why do you think a judge isgoing to solve your problems
better than somebody I've givenyou in your church?
So just really quickly on that,in my contracts that I craft
(42:07):
between Christians, I put amandatory Christian mediation
clause in there I mean, ofcourse, assuming that's what
they want.
But mediation is not.
The outcome of mediation is notmandatory.
But it is mandatory and it'sheld by law that if you agree to
that then before you can takematters to courts you must go,
in this case, before a Christianmediator under we specify
(42:27):
certain Christian mediationstandard.
But yeah, forces them to abideby 1 Corinthians 6.
Speaker 3 (42:37):
There's an attorney I work with.
You know, obviously theinstitution of the church has to
deal with legal documents andall that kind of stuff, just
like any other business does,and he's a very devout Christian
and I remember I was working onthe topic of liability waivers
and he gave me some really wisecounsel because he said, hey,
you could write a waiver andsomething could happen to
somebody and they're justcompletely out of luck.
But you guys have wonderfulinsurance.
Wouldn't you want to at leastlet them be able to submit
(42:58):
against your insurance?
You know, like that's what it'sthere for.
So we wrote it that they hadthe ability to claim against our
insurance and that liabilitywaivers were above what we've
provided insurance for.
And that was, I don't know,that a person apart from a
Christian worldview would havemaybe put that as the priority
when they're thinking about thattype of stuff, and I really
appreciated that he had thatmindset in there.
Speaker 4 (43:19):
There was a yeah, go ahead, colin.
Response.
I don't have a ton of responseto that.
I think that that's really goodthough.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
I'll pivot us just a bit to double down.
There are a number of businessowners right now in the
insurance space and think ofMarty O'Horn Jack in our world
right With great businesspractice, ethical business
practices.
I partner as a coach with a man, john Carlson, who runs
Christian Brothers Automotiveand it changes the way they
(43:47):
collaborate.
Which that business hasexploded across the country.
All of their owner operatorsare like Chick-fil-A Christians
and when they get together attheir conventions there's robust
time in the word.
He just returned from hisnational conference and he said
it was so spiritually.
Jesus said it was unbelievable.
He said Mazda down the road,not that Mazda corporate, but
(44:09):
the Mazda dealer down the roadthat we just got a car for my
son, but the Mazda dealer downthe road that we just got a car
for my son.
I heard that they have abusiness owner that's doing all
the things that you're talkingabout with all of his folks.
He has a story.
He was a prodigal at one time,came through a recovery journey
and is now doing dailydevotionals with his staff Not
mandatory, not everybody comes,but if they want to come, come
(44:30):
talk about Jesus and that'sgoing to govern the way we treat
our employees treat ourcustomers and the deals that we
make are going to be fair andethical, and that's all that we
experienced.
And praise, praise be to God,jack.
Any follow up?
Speaker 3 (44:42):
on that.
Yeah, one.
One more thing I'm going to.
I'm going to recommend a bookby a non-Lutheran, so just be
careful, but I would say it'swritten very, very well.
Jd Greer talks about empoweringbusiness leaders.
There's places in the worldthat missionaries cannot go,
that business leaders are ableto go, and they bring their
(45:14):
faith with them when they go anddo business development is to
see Christian business ownersand business leaders as
missionaries in the workplaceand really think that God is
calling you to be able to sharethe gospel within these areas of
influence that you have that wemay never have.
Right?
God has made those people yourneighbor, and they're not the
pastor's neighbor, they're yourneighbor, right.
And so now he's called you tocare for those people.
And how does the church then?
How do Christian leaders, howdo pastors, think about
(45:35):
equipping those people so theycan enter into those
circumstances?
Really well equipped, right?
Speaker 1 (45:40):
Well, jack that's the yeah, we don't think that way
often, and that, to go back toland the accelerator plane, and
we can definitely look atlanguage.
What I love about ouraccelerators is one bringing
churches and leaders together tolearn with one another as we
try to go on mission.
And then we've identified aframework, which is the church
(46:02):
engagement model.
You can come up with a numberof different frameworks and
whatever, but to not have somesort of a way in which we're
going right now about it, andI've made the case that because
I would say the evangelicalworld, and again, we agree on
Jesus.
We don't agree necessarily onthe sacraments, and that's a
significant, significantdisagreement, right, but we in
(46:23):
the marketplace, as it relatesto brand and brand awareness,
they do an exponentially betterjob than a lot of our churches,
and so the five jobs of thechurch that we teach are attract
, get retained, disciple,multiply.
And on the other end ofmultiply, this is where we can
cast a bigger vision for thosethat are in the marketplace, not
(46:44):
just to partner with us, toserve, but to be a leader, to
explore creative ways that thechurch can partner with them.
This is discipleship, right, togive them more of the words,
more training, more.
What does it look likepotentially and I've done this
with a number of differentbusiness leaders for me to
gather to have what is, inessence?
I'm not a pastor, I'm notordained, but I'm pastoring
(47:05):
these folks who are on the wayto Jesus or following Jesus and
things.
So how does the church leaderstart to partner with them as
they start to lead people in theword?
So anyway, I just love theaccelerator because we're
bringing churches together forshared learning and the outcomes
have been extraordinary for theadvancement of the gospel Colin
.
Speaker 4 (47:24):
Well, ultimately, you know, a pastor is a shepherd,
right, that's what the wordmeans.
And whenever you're a leader inthe marketplace or, you know,
in your mission nonprofit church, you are a shepherd to those
who God has given you to lead.
You know we, you know anybodywho leads other people needs to
be grounded in the word anddriven by the Holy Spirit,
because that is how people seewhat the kingdom of God is and
(47:47):
is like.
And so when you talk about, youknow what things we can do in
the marketplace I know that.
You know that you said thereare these disagreements with
other evangelical churches andthings like that.
But so many people in the worldChristians and people in the
world lament that there was thistime in America when you could
trust one another, that peoplewouldn't just rip you off here
(48:07):
and there and stuff like that,and they say, well, we should
just get back to that.
And they come up with all thesedifferent ways and how you can
accomplish it.
But that comes fromChristianity and it comes from
Christianity in the marketplace.
So, you know, if you know, when, when you have people who are
lamenting how everybody seemslike they're trying to rip them
off, like, yeah, that's the waythe world is like that.
Like what do you expect?
(48:28):
The Bible literally tells youthis.
Anybody who's been in the world.
You go in there.
You see that the world is likethis.
He's got these great artistsunder his label.
Like, listen to good Christianmusic.
(48:55):
Like, work with and support theChristians in the marketplace
and like, and you'll see God'skingdom the way the Bible talks
about it, the way that you know.
You hear the rose tintedglasses of the, of older people
saying you know this high trustsociety.
Like you can have that hightrust society with Christians.
You know resolving conflicts inthe church according to
biblical principles.
(49:15):
So I just think that's reallyimportant too, especially for
people who aren't called to beleaders.
Speaker 1 (49:21):
And I agree, and it's going to be messy, you know,
because people are very.
It's not going to be perfect.
No, and and when you hang out,I love your.
Your point about the discipleswere still kind of a hot mess at
the end of John 17.
They needed the Holy Spirit tocome and to reveal all truth to
them.
Until that point, all they careabout is safety and
(49:45):
self-preservation and they justdidn't see.
It's fascinating, closingcomments.
Here Jesus helps us see theworld clearly, and then he helps
us see the world clearly, andthen he helps us see that there
are many lost sheep, there aremany prodigals waiting for a
father to run to them with armsopen wide and to celebrate
Welcome home, son, I've beenwaiting for you to come home and
(50:06):
I'm hoping that in all of ourdifferent circles of the
Christian expression we canunite around that.
Speaker 4 (50:12):
Go ahead, colin.
There's also a lot of oldersons who have seen these
prodigals.
Maybe they've seen them, maybethey haven't.
And they said you neverslaughtered the fattened calf
for me.
And the father says all youneed to do is ask.
So there are a lot of oldersons who are here saying the
world doesn't look the way Godpromised me it should look and
(50:33):
all you need to do is ask.
You need to step up, you needto ask and step up and seek that
in God's kingdom, I think.
Speaker 1 (50:40):
Colin, I'm so glad you reached out to me and I
loved getting to know you and Iknew it'd be a fun conversation
today.
I knew I'd learn something andhopefully we clarified some
things.
I think your conversationaround brand and name is very
helpful for us moving forwardand you have our word.
We're word people here, colin,you know.
I mean everything should bebaked in the word and if you
(51:01):
can't defend it, connect it tothe word in the way of Jesus.
Like, what are we doing?
And words really matter andwords can be a springboard.
Jesus uses words that were inthe culture to tell a higher
story or a grounding or metastory, right, the greatest story
of all time, the love of Godfor his fallen, rebellious
creation.
And so I think there can befreedom in using words to tell a
(51:23):
story, but the ultimate storythat is told better be God's
story, connected to his neverchanging words.
So praise be to God.
Colin, if people want toconnect with you, how can they
do so?
Speaker 4 (51:33):
Well, let's see they can connect with me on LinkedIn,
I think would be a good placeto start.
I am not going to give out myphone number or email.
That's all right.
As much as you do that and Ilove that you do that.
I think you are a verycourageous person and I think,
like I said, I love your podcast.
I'm flattered that you even,you know, had me on.
(51:53):
Hey, man, I don't usually get Idon't get asked to come on
after I, you know, send peoplecriticism to their podcast, but
they can connect with me onLinkedIn and I really appreciate
what you guys are doing, and soit's just been an absolute
honor to be a part of this andlook forward to more content and
leadership development from youguys.
Speaker 1 (52:14):
Hey, let's go.
Let's go Always more to learnand praying for you and your
mission and your congregation,and for our Wells brothers and
sisters as well.
This is lead time.
Please like, subscribe, commentwherever it is you take in
these podcasts, and we arehonored when people have a
difference of opinion and wouldlove to come on and talk about
it, because every time we do, wefind way more things that we
agree on, namely Christ and Himcrucified, than we disagree on.
(52:36):
I'm always looking to learn.
It's a good day, go and make ita great day.
Wonderful to meet you, colin.
God bless you guys.
Speaker 2 (52:41):
You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the
Unite Leadership Collective.
The ULC's mission is tocollaborate with the local
church to discover, develop anddeploy leaders through biblical
Lutheran doctrine and innovativemethods To partner with us in
this gospel message.
Subscribe to our channel, thengo to theuniteleadershiporg to
(53:02):
create your free login forexclusive material and resources
and then to explore ways inwhich you can sponsor an episode
.
Thanks for listening and staytuned for next week.
We are honored when people have a difference of
opinion and would love to comeon and talk about it, because
every time we do, we find waymore things that we agree on,
namely Christ and Him crucified,than we disagree on.
This is Lead Time.
Welcome to Lead Time.
This is Tim Allman, JackKalberg also in the house.
Jack, you're loving life,feeling good, Are your allergies
(00:22):
?
Everybody worries about yourallergies, Jack.
You bring that up all the time.
You're so high maintenance.
I know, I know.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
It's a season right now.
The good news is I've beengoing through this immunotherapy
.
They give you these allergyshots and it's like 2%, 3%,
better every time I get a shot.
It's just really slow, though.
So you know, notice it when youlook at like a six month period
of time.
So I would say like right nowwe're in probably the worst
(00:49):
season for allergies and I don'tfeel like I'm going to die
anymore.
So that's really good.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
It's just very uncomfortable.
Speaker 4 (00:55):
Yeah, all things considered, I've been sorry.
I paid attention to yourprogress a little bit over the
last couple of weeks and I wasthinking about getting allergy
shots myself, and so this is thereal reason why I tune in
really, of course is to getallergy relief help.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Good for nothing else here at Lead Time other than
allergy support.
Anyway, I want to introduce ourguest, Colin Hoffman.
Colin is an attorney, aChristian business leader.
He is in church law and we'regoing to get into his vocation
in the marketplace in probablythe second half of our
conversation.
(01:31):
That'll be super fun, but Colinreached out to me via text.
I'll let you know where I waswhen you text me.
I was watching the DenverBroncos play this past fall on a
Thursday night game with my son.
Past fall on a Thursday nightgame with my son, or Monday
night game, I think it was.
And I get this text from thisguy and he was very, very kind,
(01:53):
very cordial, because I put outmy text on my cell phone on the
On the Line podcast with BrianStecker, who's going to be on
the podcast here soon.
And you sent me a super kindemail but you had one kind of
point of clarification.
A super kind email, but you hadone kind of point of
clarification.
You were concerned that I wasusing secular leadership
language to explain theologicalconcepts and that was.
I was like, oh, that'sfascinating, let's, let's get
(02:13):
together and talk.
And you said, hey, I'm a partof the Wells congregation in
Wisconsin, Evangelical LutheranSynod congregation and I was
like, wow, this guy sounds,sounds, fascinating.
And then you told me that youme that you're an attorney and
man, this is.
And then I understood why youcare about language so much,
which it really matters, Right,so good stuff.
Say more about that, Colin.
(02:33):
Welcome to the podcast man,Thank you.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
Thank you so much.
Yeah, I found out about youguys from on the line and I've
listened to you guys ever since.
But yeah, I was actually alittle bit dismayed when you
were like, oh yeah, come on andtalk about language usage,
because I feel it is actuallykind of pedantic and I, even
though I'm an attorney, I don'treally love to talk about
(02:56):
pedantic topics.
But, all things considered,this is actually something that
is important to me, and I thinkit's whether or not somebody
takes this discussion andchanges the way they talk.
I don't really care too much,but I just want to give some
perspective on some of thesethings.
So, as an attorney, I wasactually drawn into contract law
(03:18):
.
I had a background in computerscience and so I found contracts
to be very fascinating becausethey're kind of programming for
human relationships, and so it'sactually fascinating to me in
contracts.
People think of contracts asonerous and kind of an
enslavement to certain terms,but if it's done right, it is
(03:42):
actually setting up boundariesin a relationship.
It is actually settingexpectations for how a
relationship is going toprogress.
And the most important thingwith a contract is actually it
sets up conflict resolutionbefore conflict takes place,
which is really importantbecause once conflict begins,
agreeing on how to resolve thatconflict goes down the drain
(04:05):
right with all of the goodwill,and once insults start getting
thrown, it's so hard.
I got into contract law.
I learned a lot about contractlaw and in contracts language is
everything and, mostimportantly, it's, like I said,
it's expectations.
If the parties understand thelanguage of the contract well,
they won't need to go to courtover it, because they understand
(04:27):
what's going on and they,especially Christians, try to
abide by their word.
And then, of course, languageis important to the courts
because the courts understandlanguage to be something else.
The courts will generally tryto understand what the
intentions of the parties are,but they fall back upon legal
understandings of certain words.
So after I became a ChristianI'm in the middle of law school
(04:48):
I started realizing that so muchof what I had learned about the
world was wrong, obviously.
And God introduced me to thiswonderful.
Well, I, you know, I startedreading the Bible and everything
, but I was reintroduced to whatGod was saying and I was like
fascinated.
I was like this is all, likethis is incredible wisdom and
(05:08):
just applying to like everyfacet of life I mean, as a
lawyer, I loved Leviticus.
We don't need to get into allthat, but even I actually
learned health law, and soLeviticus was.
I was shocked at how good thehealth and sanitation laws were
in Leviticus and LeviticusDeuteronomy Numbers they had
criminal laws that I think weresimpler and better than our
(05:31):
criminal laws, but anyway.
So I wanted to.
I was interested in languagebecause I think you guys are
developing Christian leaders ina very you guys are intentional
about that and you're doing alot of great things, and so I
think just a little bit ofcherry on top or actually more
than that, it's a lot offoundation here is using the
words that God gives us in theBible to reinforce biblical
(05:52):
principles in your leaders andalso draw upon what we learn in
the Bible to essentially abideby business principles that are
pleasing to God.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Yeah, no, that's good .
Very good, that's good, I agree.
Tell me that's good.
Very good, that's good, I agree.
Tell me, tell the story.
How'd you come to faith at lawschool?
Like what was that?
Can you tell that in kind of acondensed-ish version?
Like that's wild, that'sawesome, praise.
Speaker 4 (06:12):
God.
So I am a recovered alcoholicand let's so you know the, you
know the prodigal son.
Well, god had given me a greatjob with Epic and I was a
software developer projectmanager and so I was making a
good amount of money.
And then I ended up going tolaw school because I had seen
(06:33):
that there were some issues.
I originally wanted to helppatients developing software
tools.
Anyway, I found that while Iwas there I wasn't actually
helping the patients as much.
So I thought, well, maybe ifI'm a lawyer I can help guide
these laws and regulations tothat, but I'm still living the
life of the prodigal son, allthings according to the prodigal
son.
And then I got really badlyinjured due to really bad
(06:58):
missteps in my walk as aprodigal son, ended up with a
concussion that I think probablyshould have, maybe should have
killed me.
God would.
I felt that God was.
So.
I had short-term memory lossfor over a month and I the
doctors told me it could lastweeks or years and I was
actually in a recovery groupwith a guy who had was on like
(07:19):
year two of short-term memoryloss and essentially I knew that
if this persisted I would haveto drop out of law school and,
frankly, I wouldn't be able todo very much intellectual work
at all.
And so, and I don't know, Ireally think God stepped into my
life at that point and so Istarted.
Just, I couldn't listen to musicbecause of the head trauma.
I couldn't watch TV or stuff onmy phone, so I was supposed to,
(07:41):
I had to, like, stare at thewall.
So in staring at the wall Iwould sometimes pray, like I
hadn't prayed seriously in awhile, and so I pray.
And then I once I started beingcomfortable listening to things
, I started listening to theBible, and God had put some
miracles in my life, you know.
And then, oh yeah, short-termmemory loss, my memory came back
like fully about 10 days beforefinals started, and in law
(08:04):
school, back like fully about 10days before finals started, and
in law school, finals are thelike all of your grade.
So it was, it was a realmiracle what happened.
And so I was originallyplanning to be a health law
attorney, a business lawattorney, and still still am.
But I, but you know, god hascalled me in a direction and I,
you know, I just feel like Igotta, I gotta go where he calls
me.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
So yeah, so is there someone that discipled you, told
you the story, or is it solelythrough just listening to the
Bible You're like?
I think Jesus is the way thetruth and the life I grew up.
Speaker 4 (08:33):
I grew up in the LCMS church, so I grew up in the.
In the LCMS church I fell awayin in undergrad, where a lot of
people, probably for the samereasons as other people, and so
I was very familiar with thestories or the accounts.
So I had actually even startedreading the Bible again in 2018,
(08:58):
before I started law school,just because I was wrestling
with my alcoholism and trying tofigure out what was know, what
was going on in the world.
And there, between that andwhen God started really moving
in my life, I had some bizarreexperiences which is a story for
another time that had convincedme that evil, like evil, was
real, like you know, someexperiences with, like you know,
(09:21):
like, probably demons, soanyway, you know.
So once those doors startopening, you're like I got to, I
got to figure out you know Igot demons, so anyway, you know.
So, once, once those doors startopening, you're like I gotta, I
gotta figure out.
You know, I gotta figure outwhat the truth is here, what's
going on, and clearly we knowthat that God is real and that
that Jesus is our savior, andyeah, so, and that, yeah,
amazing bro.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Yeah Well, welcome back.
Welcome back home, man.
We celebrate and welcoming youback and now using your vocation
, I should have asked are youmarried with children or
anything?
Speaker 4 (09:50):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That was one of the miraclesGod blessed me with.
You know, when the prodigal soncomes home, he puts a robe over
his son and puts a ring on hisfinger.
Well, god, you know, god gaveme the woman who is my wife.
So, yeah, we're, we're happilymarried.
We got a two year old daughter.
She's well.
She's turning two in a coupleof weeks.
(10:10):
So congrats, man.
Yeah, that's.
That's been a huge blessing.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
What a what a celebration.
And now getting to use your,your newfound Holy Spirit
inspired passion for the gospelto change your community and to
change families.
And we're going to get to that.
But let's go into.
You wanted to make sure wetalked about Jesus as leader
connected to John 17.
Want to take us into that andwe'll use that as a launching
(10:35):
off point for our conversation.
So I don't know exactly what Isaid on Brian.
I said a lot of things.
It was like a two hour.
We just kept going.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
But if you even remember some of the things that
I had said, they were like, Idon't know if I'd there were a
couple words that I think couldbe discussed a little bit better
.
And not that it's your fault,you know that you've done
anything wrong.
I just, you know, let's sharpenthe saw a little bit, you know.
So you were discussing brand.
At one point you guys were inthe middle of a rebrand or you
(11:19):
guys had helped someone with arebrand or something like that.
And you know I studied a lot ofIP law.
Brand is really importantTrademarks, trade names and you
know that it's important tomaintain your creative works.
If they're under your brand,you want to make sure that
they're represented well andthings like that.
But you know, as I read theBible, god actually seems to
(11:42):
have a different way ofdiscussing brand.
So God does talk about brand alot, as you guys know.
You know the word he uses forhis brand right, oh, it's name.
He says his name, yeah and soand so he.
I mean, and of course that's.
You know there's the Hebrewword for name and the Greek word
for name.
But you know, you know the newking james version, um
(12:05):
translates it to name, as wellas the most of the other
translations do too, and so wesay in the lord's prayer
hallowed be your name.
You know, essentially your nameis holy and um, I think brand
is.
Actually.
In modern english, brand isactually a closer approximation
to name than than what use asname.
We consider name to be like alabel, whereas brand is so much
(12:29):
more.
It is a reputation, althoughbrand usually comes with a
little bit of artistic thing,and it usually I don't.
The reason why I think Biblesdon't use the word brand is
because brand is also associatedwith like changing a lot.
Like you can change your brand,like oh, we're this brand today
and then we change our brand,et cetera.
So name is, you know God's nameis permanent, but it is good,
(12:50):
and you know we, if we just swapout the word name for brand,
like your brand is holy, youknow your brand is good, you
know we trust in your brand.
You know things like that.
It's like if you go to thestore and you're trying to
choose between, let's say, themost important toilet paper of
(13:10):
your life, and you know thatthere's one brand that is like
you know they have always donegood, you're like, well, yeah,
we'll pick that brand.
You know your brand is good,your brand is holy.
But then where this comes inand being really important is
you can start reading how Goduses our brand, our name, in the
Bible.
So I'm going to read reallyquickly Psalm 23.
(13:32):
You guys are probably familiar.
The Lord is my shepherd.
I shall not want he makes me tolie down in green pastures.
He leads me beside the stillwaters.
He restores my soul.
He leads me in the paths of.
He restores my soul.
He leads me in the paths ofrighteousness for his name's
sake.
So that last verse there, heleads me in paths of
(13:53):
righteousness for his name'ssake.
I'm going to just read one otherthing here Jeremiah 14, verse
19 through 21.
I'm just going to kind of pullhalf of 19, half of 21.
We look for peace, but therewas no good, and for the time of
healing and there was trouble.
We acknowledge, o Lord, ourwickedness and the iniquity of
(14:14):
our fathers, for we have sinnedagainst you.
Do not abhor us for yournamesake, do not disgrace the
throne of your glory.
So they're saying there do notabhor us for your namesake.
And in the previous one he saidhe leads me in the paths of
righteousness for his namesakePlace, the name name with brand
for his brand's sake.
Why is brand so important hereis because Psalm 23, david is
(14:38):
the head of his brand on earthat this point in time.
And in Jeremiah, the people whoJeremiah is lamenting over are
the people who are under hisbrand.
So what they're saying is likeGod, this is your brand, we are
part of your brand.
We have messed up, but we stillwant to see your brand
glorified.
(14:58):
And so, because we're part ofthat which they're not giving,
they're not, you know, givinginto any judgment of how God has
chosen such awful brand bearers.
But you know, god chose me aswell, so it's like, you know I'm
.
I'm not looking that deep intothat either, so, but you know
says, for your brand sake, youknow, for your name sake.
And so as we read the Bible, wecan see how even Jesus talks
(15:21):
about God's brand, god's name,and so as we pursue branding in
our churches, christianbusinesses, you see how God sees
name Also really quickly onthat, brands change.
So we say, well, god's namedoesn't change.
However, god changes the namesof those who he calls.
So Abram, his name is changedto Abraham.
(15:41):
Jacob, his name is changed toIsrael.
Jacob was a deceptive, wily guy.
Israel was the father of Israel, of course, and God had changed
him after wrestling with himand changing who he was.
So, actually, jacob's brandliterally changed when he became
(16:02):
Israel.
And then, of course, peopleknow, simon became Peter.
Jesus is like oh, you're notPeter anymore, we're going to
call you the rock.
So Saul becomes Paul, exactly.
And, yeah, james and Johnbecome the sons of thunder.
And so Jesus does actuallychange our brand when we, when
(16:22):
we come into business, intoliving with him.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
Well, I would say, baptism is where we get a brand
new name.
Right, god places his name uponus, that's.
That's the audacious reality ofour brand change from sinner
into saint by grace, throughfaith, jack any response A
baptismal name to go along withbaptism, right?
Speaker 3 (16:42):
That that's really when we think of the time of
that name being applied to us.
So this is fascinating, youknow, when you, if you think
about the petitions of the Lordprayer, you say hallowed be thy
name, that makes sense.
If you said hallowed be thybrand, that would seem terrible.
But if you say hallowed be thyreputation, that actually makes
a lot of sense.
That now you, now you havebasically a very similar meaning
(17:03):
in that, and I think that'sreally what we've always hoped
to press in on with the conceptof brand is that brand is not
about logo per se, althoughlogos can communicate a lot,
right, really, what it is brandshould be almost all of the
times.
Thought about what yourreputation is.
The way that we measure brandis by what people say about us,
(17:24):
right, and how Jesus measured it.
He actually measured it, heasked the disciples what are the
people saying about me?
Right, and now you hear allthese stories.
Some people say you're ElijahAll these, you know.
Some people say you're John theBaptist Right, so there's this
brand floating out there andJesus actually is is revealing
that through the conversation,what this current brand is.
And then he asks them what doyou say?
(17:48):
So, what is the brand now ofthe disciples?
Right, what is it that they'resaying about him?
Right, that you're the Messiah,right?
So I think that's a reallyfascinating way to think about
brand and maybe actually doeshelp us as church leaders know
that brand is actually a type ofreality that the early church
dealt with, that Jesus dealtwith as he was discipling people
and you know, starting the verybeginning of his church, his
(18:09):
ministry on earth, and what wedeal with as church leaders.
The church has a brand, right?
You could say that the globalchurch has a brand.
Certain denominations have abrand.
It's interesting hearing peopletalk about like our own, our own
, like the LCMS.
What is our brand?
Right?
There's people who are veryconservative Bible believers
(18:30):
that have a very, very high viewof the LCMS.
This is fascinating.
I've heard it represented thisway A very, very high view of
the LCMS and its view ofpreserving the inerrancy of
scripture, but then also, likekind of questioning maybe, some
of our hospitality with how wedeal with people online.
Right, well, and that's that's,that's part of our brand now,
(18:50):
right, because that's whatsometimes people are saying
about us, right, well, sointerestingly enough, you said
it would seem weird to sayhallowed be your brand or brand.
Speaker 4 (18:59):
Interestingly enough, you said it would seem weird to
say hallowed be your brand orhallowed be your brand.
But think about so.
When you say hallowed be yourbrand, it's very weird because
it creates this corporatelanguage.
But here's the thing is you, weare under God's brand, just as
the Israelites were, just asDavid was, and he says for your
namesake, and so you knowsomething to consider.
(19:19):
Is you know you?
He says for your name's sake,and so you know something to
consider.
Is you know you?
You were obviously talkingabout your church's brand, your
denominations brand, and youknow how you, as a leader in
that, represent that.
But you have to remember youknow how it'd be your brand in
the Lord's prayer.
It's like we have to recognizethat we represent God's brand on
earth and it's kind of saying,like God, we are striving to
(19:43):
keep your reputation holy in ourlives and as we represent
ourselves to the community.
Speaker 3 (19:49):
And the early church had a brand and it had two
simultaneous brands at the sametime.
One brand was these are thepeople that are failing to
glorify the emperor, and theother brand is here's the people
that love each other.
Isn't that interesting thatboth of these brands existed at
the same time and society waswrestling with these two things?
That was part of the church'sbrand.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Yeah.
Well, going back to Jesus, whatgot Jesus killed is he
connected his brand, his name,so intimately to the father's
name, to Yahweh's name.
That's the audacity of the dualnature of Christ.
At the very same time, how cana man claim to be God?
Well, this man came downbecause the brand of Israel,
carrying the message of God'slove to the nations, has been
(20:35):
compromised.
They've taken on the brand ofother gods when there is only
one, when there is only one God.
So I'm curious, colin, and youcan quote me, I'm always
learning.
So what did I say on the linethat led you to say we could be
a little tighter?
Did I just not make the logicaljump from what people say about
you, your reputation, whenyou're not in the room, back to
back to the Old Testament,because I agree with everything
(20:57):
we've said up to this point.
Speaker 4 (20:58):
No, actually.
So that wasn't actually thething that got my gears turning.
That was something that I justthink we could sharpen the saw
Okay cool.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
What did I say?
That got your gears going.
Speaker 4 (21:08):
So the thing that you said that got my gears turning
is when you talked about yourleadership accelerator that you
had put together, and that was awhile back, so I don't know if
you still call it a leadershipaccelerator.
But, having been in the startupspace, I w, I was I in law
school, I was working for thelaw and entrepreneurship clinic,
which worked with a lot ofsmall businesses and especially
(21:31):
works kind of in collaborationwith an accelerator slash
incubator out of Madison, and soyou use the term accelerator
and and I didn't know if youwere using the Silicon Valley
term accelerator or if you wereusing what you thought
accelerator meant.
But essentially, long storyshort, accelerator.
So in Silicon Valley, like thehigh tech space, you've got
(21:54):
incubators and accelerators.
Incubators are the things thathelp a new business bring a
product or service to market,and an accelerator goes from
entry into the market toexpansion of the market or into
the market.
So when you said a leadershipaccelerator now I don't know a
ton about it I kind of said tomyself does he actually mean
something that is like anaccelerator for people bringing
(22:17):
their leadership to market orsomething, or is this just an
accelerated leadership course?
Speaker 3 (22:22):
No, it's actually we are deriving the Silicon Valley
model here.
Now, when we started using that, the term incubator wasn't as
common.
It was kind of like just the itwas.
We were using accelerator asthe blanket term, but you would
probably say that there was acombination of incubator style
learnings as well as acceleratorstyle stuff.
Depending on is very contextual, because we would get cohorts
(22:44):
of churches together and they'reall in different levels of
their leadership, development,maturity in terms of their
systems and culture andstructure, and some some people
are starting from zero andthey're learning from the more
mature churches.
Some of the more maturechurches already have something
in place and they're doingrefinement work on it.
So we just generically use theterm accelerator because we're
(23:05):
using a lot of the techniquesthat they would use in the
Silicon.
Valley accelerator to do thatmethodologies.
Speaker 4 (23:10):
But I guess you know I this struck me because I am,
like I said, I'm familiar withthose and the thing that always,
you know, I was taught when Istarted learning Scrum, you know
, essentially it said yourmanagement, the tools and the
(23:31):
management style should align.
So if you change your tools,the management style needs to
change.
If the management style changes, the tools need to change as
well, and so tools are alwayschanging.
So you think management stylechanges a lot too, and so I
guess.
But from my perspective is, youknow, these things change a lot
, and I just think I don't havea super clear answer on this and
(23:55):
I was really praying about thisto try to bring the answer.
I don't have the answer, but Ihave a lot here which I want to
go over.
But you know, when we, when werely on Silicon Valley
terminology, techniques, whilethey are generally better than
you know, there's a ton ofthings that the church just
doesn't understand, like a lotof times in these development
(24:16):
spaces there, yes, they'rereading the Bible, but their
understanding of things is likepretty minimal.
So you know they they're thethings that are in the Bible
that should be instructing themon how to lead are just absent.
So you know, silicon Valleytechniques are better than
nothing, but I think we can dobetter in developing Christian
principles that meet the samegoals, meet the same principles.
(24:39):
And actually, one thing that youguys were talking about with
Brian Stecker or Tim you weretalking about with Brian Stecker
is he was talking about OKRobjectives and key results.
Right, and there are otherterminologies for this, like
when we were doing some.
Like one time in theconversation they used the STAR
method, situation, task, action,results.
But what I'm highlighting hereis there's a bunch of different
(25:01):
words that are used, a bunch ofdifferent principles and stuff,
and if we lean on biblicalprinciples, it's like the wise
man building his house on therock.
Right, these words are going tochange the world is going to
change the way that they usetheir terms accelerator and
incubator.
You're saying incubator wasn'twidely used at that time, but
you know it is.
(25:21):
Maybe it is now, but in 20years it will be something else
and if your name stays as anaccelerator, they're going to be
like what, yeah, yeah, thebrand of it.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
you know we have to well that.
That gets to the point of it.
I would say the most importantthing as a principle that we
teach people in our accelerators, or whatever we choose to brand
them in the future, is the wecall it the build measure learn
mindset right.
And so the whole point is thatwithin the scope of ministry,
you have a lot of freedom tobuild programs, to understand
(25:50):
what are the most effective waysthat the church can collaborate
to reach people, be able toshare the gospel with more
people, build relationships withmore people, engage with people
more effectively.
These are all areas ofadiaphora and a lot of times, a
lot of the times, the way thatthings used to work in terms of
how we build fellowship andreach communities and
communicate about certain topics.
(26:11):
They work for a season, theydon't work for another season.
And with the change in culture,the change in technology, it
seems like things are changingdramatically and we have to
build churches and ministriesthat are dynamic enough that the
eternal, unchanging word of thegospel can be applied in a more
flexible way to people, right?
Speaker 4 (26:31):
So Especially around that where there is flexibility,
because God puts differentgifts and different people in
different places.
I actually want to go to one ofthe answers that I found was
John 17.
Okay, john 17,.
Jesus is praying at the Gardenof Gethsemane, which is it's
(26:54):
amazing that we were given thistime to talk over Holy Week,
given this time to talk overHoly Week, but because this is
Jesus praying at the Garden ofGethsemane Thursday night after
his last meal, so I'm just goingto read it.
Actually, let me just give alittle bit of background.
So what I found in John 17 isJesus, in John 17, praying in
the Garden of Gethsemane.
(27:15):
He is doing a project handoff toGod.
He is doing a lot of thingshere, but one of the things he's
doing is he's doing a projecthandoff to God.
He is doing a lot of thingshere, but one of the things he's
doing is he's doing a projecthandoff to God, and I'll
highlight these points.
But in this project handoffthat he does, he does an
executive level summary over hismission and you'll see that he
starts off with resources andobjectives and goals and he goes
(27:37):
into results and then he goesinto goals and future goals big
picture goals as well.
And of course people don't seeit like this, and it's best you
don't need to see it like this.
It's only important for peoplewho would find value in it.
But let me just read it andjust kind of go through it here
a bit.
(27:57):
And this is the New King JamesVersion.
Jesus spoke these words, liftedup his eyes to heaven and said
Father, the hour has come,glorify your son, that your son
also may glorify you, as youhave given him authority over
all flesh, that he should giveeternal life to as many as you
have given him and this iseternal life that they may know
you, the only true God in JesusChrist, whom you have sent.
(28:20):
Hold on right there, I'm justgoing to pause quickly.
So this is him.
The hour has come, you know.
Glorify your son.
That your son may glorify you.
You know he's saying the hour'scome, I move on to you know,
being the sacrifice and startingon the next part of this
ministry, this thing that youhave for me.
And so he just kind of gives anopening there and then he says
(28:43):
I have glorified you on theearth, I have finished the work
which you have given me to doand now, oh, father, glorify me
together with yourself, with theglory which I had with you
before the world was.
I have manifested your name tothe men whom you have given me
out of the world.
They were yours, you gave themto me and they have kept your
word.
Now they have.
(29:03):
So this is objective startingresources objective.
And he says you know, I amsuccessful, this objective has
(29:24):
been completed.
So he then says I pray for them.
I do not pray for the world,but for those whom you have
given me, for they are yours.
Just going to stop right there,he says I pray for them, really
quickly.
Pray also means request.
I pray for them, I you them, Iseek blessings for them, I pray.
He says I do not pray for theworld, but for those you have
(29:44):
given me.
So he's saying specificallyright now, I'm just talking
about these guys.
All right, now I am no longerin the world, but these are in
the world and I come to you,holy Father, keep through your
name those whom you have givenme, that they may be one, as we
are, while I was with them inthe world.
Wait, hold on really quickly.
So, um, let's see, okay, no,I'm going to keep going, sorry.
(30:07):
Okay, while I was with them inthe world, I kept them in your
name.
Those whom you gave me, I havekept, and none of them is lost,
except the son of perdition,that the scripture might be
fulfilled.
So there, he's actually goingmore into the results there and
actually, as you would see, in ahigh level or in any executive
summary, you say, okay, thereseems to be a little failure
(30:30):
here.
I've delivered all of them toyou.
But he's saying but wheneveryou do a summary, whenever
you're doing these accounting,you say, okay, there is
something, there's a blip in theresults here.
Let's explain that.
He says there's one person whowas not delivered.
That's the son of perdition,that's Judas, and it was because
prophecy said that.
So it's actually fulfillment ofprophecy.
(30:52):
It's not actually a failure,and that's what you do in
project management.
You say there's a blip here,seems like it may seem like a
problem, but we're actually blah, blah, blah.
This is why it's not really aproblem, it's being taken care
of.
So he's doing that there.
He's giving more discreteresults.
So all right.
But now I come to you and thesethings I speak in the world that
(31:13):
they may have my joy fulfilledin themselves, I have given them
your word and the world hashated them because they are not
of the world, just as I am notof the world.
I do not pray that you shouldtake them out of the world, but
that you should keep them fromthe evil one.
They are not of the world, justas I am not of the world.
Sanctify them by your truth.
(31:34):
Your word is truth.
As you have sent me into theworld, I also have sent them
into the world and for theirsakes I sanctify myself that
they also may be sanctified bythe truth.
There he is saying.
He is saying, okay, next stepsfor them.
I'm sending them out into theworld.
God, they've done a great jobso far, which just a kind of a
(31:55):
side note there.
This is Thursday night, afterthe Passover meal.
They have not done a good joband in fact they are not going
to do a good job the next dayeither.
You know, there's a little bithere in terms of leadership,
where Jesus is saying he isnonetheless praising his
subordinates here, his disciples, even though they're still a
mess, but they're a mess inprogress, and he's praising them
(32:18):
to the higher up, to God, theFather, but anyway, he says here
, even though they've done goodwork, god, their time's not done
.
Don't snatch them out of theworld.
I just pray that as you guidethem, you keep them from the
evil one.
I'm sending them out into theworld and I pray that you bless
them in that mission.
All right, so then he goes onand says so.
Then he continues praying forthe big picture goals.
(32:40):
He says I do not pray for thesealone, but also for those who
will believe in me through theirword, that they all may be one,
as you, father, are in me and Iin you.
That they also may be one in us.
That the world may believe thatyou sent me and the glory which
you gave me I have given them.
That they may be one just as weare one, I in them and you in
(33:01):
me.
That they may be made perfectin one.
And that the world may knowthat you have sent me and have
loved them as you have loved me,father.
I desire that they also, whoyou gave me, be with me where I
am, that they may behold myglory, which you have given me,
for you loved me before thefoundation of the world.
Oh, righteous father, the worldhas not known you, but I have
(33:24):
known you and these have knownthat you sent me and I have
declared them.
I have declared to them yourname, your brand, of course, and
will declare it that the lovewith which you loved me may be
in them and I in them.
So that last couple paragraphsthere he says okay, beyond these
(33:44):
next goals and objectives,we're broadening.
And I'm now praying, I'm nowrequesting God that in these
future goals, that you alsocarry out this blessing with
those who come after them.
And he says you know, themission was that these people
that come to know me come toknow the Father, that they be
with us in heaven.
(34:05):
And so you know.
He says you know, as a resultof that, I ask for that as well.
And so, essentially, this lastpart here is he talks about
bigger goals and the bigger,wider next steps.
So, anyway, that's the end ofJohn 17.
I think it is a.
Really.
You know, I was praying abouthow are we going to?
What is a?
Is there any good role model inthe Bible about you know how to
(34:26):
give account of projects or doproject management?
And I think John 17 is is areally great, perfect model,
perhaps Very good.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
Hey, thanks for the devotional, colin.
I was just like taking that inon Holy Week.
I'm going to be telling a lotof people that story and the
thing that always strikes meabout John 17,.
Jesus talks about joy and Jesustalks about love.
Those are the postures of theheart of the disciples and Jesus
who, for the joy set before him, we were his joy and those who
would come.
And Jesus talks about love.
Those are the postures of theheart of the disciples and Jesus
who, for the joy set before him, we were his joy and those who
would come after us because ofour proclaimed word would find
(35:01):
that joy as they believe in whatJesus came to do.
And I sometimes struggle withand we talked about it a lot,
you've heard us, if you'velistened to us at all the
confession of the worddisconnected from the sending
nature of God.
And I think we can tighten upour language as confessional
Lutherans who confess a puredoctrine and the purpose of that
(35:25):
pure doctrine.
And I think John 17 is awonderful, wonderful place for
us to unite because that'sJesus's word.
Right?
This is a podcast of UniteLeadership Collective and we.
He's made his outcomes clear ofwhat he sees.
The outcomes are very clear andthere's more people who need
that.
They all may be one Like what'sthe?
What's the end goal?
It's that every person wouldcome to know the saving love of
(35:47):
God.
Who did Jesus die for?
He died for the sins of theentire world.
And so, as our posture is asChristians all of the baptized,
in all of our differentvocations is it for one more,
one more multiple familiescoming?
And you see this engage in thebook of Acts 3,000 in one day,
whole households being changed,like the vision that Jesus left
(36:07):
in John 17, inspired by and, Iwould say, accelerated by, the
Holy Spirit, moved the people ofGod in mighty mission to make
him known, even at the loss oflife.
And we see that very early inthe story Like, this is life and
death stuff here, and theChristians are like, yeah,
exactly, eternity is on the lineand God has come and he has
(36:29):
spoken, and all we want to do isget his word in all of our
different vocations out into theworld.
This is the charge, and it'snot just 17, right, it's at the
very end, or the new beginningin the Great Commission and in
then Jesus's words right beforehis ascension, you will be
martyred, witnesses, jerusalem,judea, samaria, to the ends of
(36:49):
the earth.
Like the vision that Jesus leftwas so profound, and I guess,
if you're going to summarize oneof our points of emphasis on
our podcast over a long periodof time is leaders need to be
aligned by the Spirit's power tothe mighty mission vision of
God who is going out into theworld to make him known.
There are so many Collins out inthe world right now, bro, that
(37:10):
are wondering is the church forme?
Does the church have a placefor me?
And obviously the answer is yes, because Jesus has a place for
you and we are his livingmanifestation on the earth.
Hopefully, our posture is love,and the outcome of the love of
God for us is robust joy thatnothing in this world can steal
from us.
(37:30):
So thank you for taking usthrough that devotional call and
response.
Speaker 4 (37:34):
Yeah, actually you got me really fired up on that,
as you do when you get on a rollthere.
You got me really fired up.
You were saying that you knowthat we must proclaim Jesus
Christ, and one thing that hasbeen interesting to me is how
much we can harvest in ournormal jobs.
(37:54):
And when we talk about thatpeople think, oh well, I can
just bring my coworkers tochurch and stuff like that.
But there's actually adifferent thing we can do here
is if we are working forChristian organizations, then
church doesn't end on Sunday.
It actually I do with myparalegals and other attorneys
(38:17):
in collaboration.
We do devotionals throughoutthe week.
We do Monday, wednesday, fridaydevotionals in the morning and
we kind of make it some homeworkthat the leaders will try to
bring a passage for everydevotion and God speaks to us
through those devotions and thenwhen we start our day with that
, god's mission for us in thatday becomes a lot clearer.
(38:39):
And there's a lot more you cando in professing Christ to the
marketplace when you have thefull support of your institution
, your company, yourorganization to handle money the
way Jesus wants you to handlemoney organization to.
You know to handle money theway Jesus wants you to handle
money to, you know, be able togive your clients the treatment
(39:00):
that Jesus wants us to give them.
And then, especially whenyou're serving Christians,
having the biblical clarity tonot just serve the client but
serve the client according towhat God wants for them.
Because you know there are somany.
You know when we're talking withour brothers and sisters in
church, you know there are somany.
You know when we're talkingwith our brothers and sisters in
church, you know if they starttalking about something that
they want to do, that theyreally want to do, but you're
like you know what that soundsdangerous or like that doesn't
(39:23):
seem like a good route to go, wewould say hold on, why don't
you do this instead?
And so you know something thatI think has been awesome, for
what God has called me into iswhen is as I, as I counsel
Christians in their legalstruggles, I can tell them, like
I know, that this is what yousay you want.
But you know, let's talk aboutit, let's pray about it and
(39:44):
let's consider what God wants.
And you know the Bible saysthat this is what he wants us to
do in these roles.
This is how he wants us torelate to others, what he wants
us to do in these roles.
This is how he wants us torelate to others.
And and you know, in and whenyou start doing that, then you
say you know, you see that, oh,there's a big trial coming up
and it looks awful, and youdon't know how you're going to
get through it.
And so you know you.
Then you can pray, you know youpray with the clients as long
(40:07):
as you need to, and just youknow.
Pray God, deliver.
Deliver us, because accordingto your brand, according to your
name, according to your brand,why are you setting us on this
mission?
Why do you have this in ourlives?
You clearly aren't just settingus up for failure.
That's not your brand.
You're setting us up to dogreat things.
And so deliver us God, becausethis seems treacherous.
(40:29):
So having that Christianbusiness, that in the
marketplace Christian, whetherit be nonprofit business or, you
know, church as well it givesyou a lot more.
It gives you all the arrows inthe quiver to proclaim Christ
into the marketplace.
Speaker 3 (40:44):
Sometimes, in the law right, there's opportunities to
cause harm to another personthrough a legal process.
There's opportunities to takeadvantage of other people
through a legal process.
There's opportunities to takeadvantage of other people
through a legal process, and Ithink it's powerful that there
would be Christians serving inthat role, saying wait a minute,
just because you can dosomething doesn't mean that you
should do something.
Speaker 4 (41:03):
Right.
Well, I mean, think about.
Think about this you, if you'regetting into a contractual
relationship to take advantageof somebody, right, it's clearly
not a long term relationship,because once you take advantage
of them, it's clearly not along-term relationship, because
once you take advantage of them,you are going to destroy the
relationship and you're going totake from them in a way that is
detrimental to them.
So it's not when you havemutually beneficial
(41:24):
relationships, both parties growbeneficially and actually
develop more business and morebusiness together.
So one thing that we actually do, you know, reading the Bible, I
see 1 Corinthians 6, brethrendo not sue brethren.
And it says why don't we suebrethren?
Well, it's because God hasgiven you all the wisdom, like
he has given you the purestwisdom, the best wisdom.
(41:46):
Why do you think that a judgewill be better to resolve your
conflicts than somebody in yourchurch?
The judge hasn't been given theword of God, he hasn't been
given wisdom.
It's your church.
So why do you think a judge isgoing to solve your problems
better than somebody I've givenyou in your church?
So just really quickly on that,in my contracts that I craft
(42:07):
between Christians, I put amandatory Christian mediation
clause in there I mean, ofcourse, assuming that's what
they want.
But mediation is not.
The outcome of mediation is notmandatory.
But it is mandatory and it'sheld by law that if you agree to
that then before you can takematters to courts you must go,
in this case, before a Christianmediator under we specify
(42:27):
certain Christian mediationstandard.
But yeah, forces them to abideby 1 Corinthians 6.
Speaker 3 (42:37):
There's an attorney I work with.
You know, obviously theinstitution of the church has to
deal with legal documents andall that kind of stuff, just
like any other business does,and he's a very devout Christian
and I remember I was working onthe topic of liability waivers
and he gave me some really wisecounsel because he said, hey,
you could write a waiver andsomething could happen to
somebody and they're justcompletely out of luck.
But you guys have wonderfulinsurance.
Wouldn't you want to at leastlet them be able to submit
(42:58):
against your insurance?
You know, like that's what it'sthere for.
So we wrote it that they hadthe ability to claim against our
insurance and that liabilitywaivers were above what we've
provided insurance for.
And that was, I don't know,that a person apart from a
Christian worldview would havemaybe put that as the priority
when they're thinking about thattype of stuff, and I really
appreciated that he had thatmindset in there.
Speaker 4 (43:19):
There was a yeah, go ahead, colin.
Response.
I don't have a ton of responseto that.
I think that that's really goodthough.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
I'll pivot us just a bit to double down.
There are a number of businessowners right now in the
insurance space and think ofMarty O'Horn Jack in our world
right With great businesspractice, ethical business
practices.
I partner as a coach with a man, john Carlson, who runs
Christian Brothers Automotiveand it changes the way they
(43:47):
collaborate.
Which that business hasexploded across the country.
All of their owner operatorsare like Chick-fil-A Christians
and when they get together attheir conventions there's robust
time in the word.
He just returned from hisnational conference and he said
it was so spiritually.
Jesus said it was unbelievable.
He said Mazda down the road,not that Mazda corporate, but
(44:09):
the Mazda dealer down the roadthat we just got a car for my
son, but the Mazda dealer downthe road that we just got a car
for my son.
I heard that they have abusiness owner that's doing all
the things that you're talkingabout with all of his folks.
He has a story.
He was a prodigal at one time,came through a recovery journey
and is now doing dailydevotionals with his staff Not
mandatory, not everybody comes,but if they want to come, come
(44:30):
talk about Jesus and that'sgoing to govern the way we treat
our employees treat ourcustomers and the deals that we
make are going to be fair andethical, and that's all that we
experienced.
And praise, praise be to God,jack.
Any follow up?
Speaker 3 (44:42):
on that.
Yeah, one.
One more thing I'm going to.
I'm going to recommend a bookby a non-Lutheran, so just be
careful, but I would say it'swritten very, very well.
Jd Greer talks about empoweringbusiness leaders.
There's places in the worldthat missionaries cannot go,
that business leaders are ableto go, and they bring their
(45:14):
faith with them when they go anddo business development is to
see Christian business ownersand business leaders as
missionaries in the workplaceand really think that God is
calling you to be able to sharethe gospel within these areas of
influence that you have that wemay never have.
Right?
God has made those people yourneighbor, and they're not the
pastor's neighbor, they're yourneighbor, right.
And so now he's called you tocare for those people.
And how does the church then?
How do Christian leaders, howdo pastors, think about
(45:35):
equipping those people so theycan enter into those
circumstances?
Really well equipped, right?
Speaker 1 (45:40):
Well, jack that's the yeah, we don't think that way
often, and that, to go back toland the accelerator plane, and
we can definitely look atlanguage.
What I love about ouraccelerators is one bringing
churches and leaders together tolearn with one another as we
try to go on mission.
And then we've identified aframework, which is the church
(46:02):
engagement model.
You can come up with a numberof different frameworks and
whatever, but to not have somesort of a way in which we're
going right now about it, andI've made the case that because
I would say the evangelicalworld, and again, we agree on
Jesus.
We don't agree necessarily onthe sacraments, and that's a
significant, significantdisagreement, right, but we in
(46:23):
the marketplace, as it relatesto brand and brand awareness,
they do an exponentially betterjob than a lot of our churches,
and so the five jobs of thechurch that we teach are attract
, get retained, disciple,multiply.
And on the other end ofmultiply, this is where we can
cast a bigger vision for thosethat are in the marketplace, not
(46:44):
just to partner with us, toserve, but to be a leader, to
explore creative ways that thechurch can partner with them.
This is discipleship, right, togive them more of the words,
more training, more.
What does it look likepotentially and I've done this
with a number of differentbusiness leaders for me to
gather to have what is, inessence?
I'm not a pastor, I'm notordained, but I'm pastoring
(47:05):
these folks who are on the wayto Jesus or following Jesus and
things.
So how does the church leaderstart to partner with them as
they start to lead people in theword?
So anyway, I just love theaccelerator because we're
bringing churches together forshared learning and the outcomes
have been extraordinary for theadvancement of the gospel Colin
.
Speaker 4 (47:24):
Well, ultimately, you know, a pastor is a shepherd,
right, that's what the wordmeans.
And whenever you're a leader inthe marketplace or, you know,
in your mission nonprofit church, you are a shepherd to those
who God has given you to lead.
You know we, you know anybodywho leads other people needs to
be grounded in the word anddriven by the Holy Spirit,
because that is how people seewhat the kingdom of God is and
(47:47):
is like.
And so when you talk about, youknow what things we can do in
the marketplace I know that.
You know that you said thereare these disagreements with
other evangelical churches andthings like that.
But so many people in the worldChristians and people in the
world lament that there was thistime in America when you could
trust one another, that peoplewouldn't just rip you off here
(48:07):
and there and stuff like that,and they say, well, we should
just get back to that.
And they come up with all thesedifferent ways and how you can
accomplish it.
But that comes fromChristianity and it comes from
Christianity in the marketplace.
So, you know, if you know, when, when you have people who are
lamenting how everybody seemslike they're trying to rip them
off, like, yeah, that's the waythe world is like that.
Like what do you expect?
(48:28):
The Bible literally tells youthis.
Anybody who's been in the world.
You go in there.
You see that the world is likethis.
He's got these great artistsunder his label.
Like, listen to good Christianmusic.
(48:55):
Like, work with and support theChristians in the marketplace
and like, and you'll see God'skingdom the way the Bible talks
about it, the way that you know.
You hear the rose tintedglasses of the, of older people
saying you know this high trustsociety.
Like you can have that hightrust society with Christians.
You know resolving conflicts inthe church according to
biblical principles.
(49:15):
So I just think that's reallyimportant too, especially for
people who aren't called to beleaders.
Speaker 1 (49:21):
And I agree, and it's going to be messy, you know,
because people are very.
It's not going to be perfect.
No, and and when you hang out,I love your.
Your point about the discipleswere still kind of a hot mess at
the end of John 17.
They needed the Holy Spirit tocome and to reveal all truth to
them.
Until that point, all they careabout is safety and
(49:45):
self-preservation and they justdidn't see.
It's fascinating, closingcomments.
Here Jesus helps us see theworld clearly, and then he helps
us see the world clearly, andthen he helps us see that there
are many lost sheep, there aremany prodigals waiting for a
father to run to them with armsopen wide and to celebrate
Welcome home, son, I've beenwaiting for you to come home and
(50:06):
I'm hoping that in all of ourdifferent circles of the
Christian expression we canunite around that.
Speaker 4 (50:12):
Go ahead, colin.
There's also a lot of oldersons who have seen these
prodigals.
Maybe they've seen them, maybethey haven't.
And they said you neverslaughtered the fattened calf
for me.
And the father says all youneed to do is ask.
So there are a lot of oldersons who are here saying the
world doesn't look the way Godpromised me it should look and
(50:33):
all you need to do is ask.
You need to step up, you needto ask and step up and seek that
in God's kingdom, I think.
Speaker 1 (50:40):
Colin, I'm so glad you reached out to me and I
loved getting to know you and Iknew it'd be a fun conversation
today.
I knew I'd learn something andhopefully we clarified some
things.
I think your conversationaround brand and name is very
helpful for us moving forwardand you have our word.
We're word people here, colin,you know.
I mean everything should bebaked in the word and if you
(51:01):
can't defend it, connect it tothe word in the way of Jesus.
Like, what are we doing?
And words really matter andwords can be a springboard.
Jesus uses words that were inthe culture to tell a higher
story or a grounding or metastory, right, the greatest story
of all time, the love of Godfor his fallen, rebellious
creation.
And so I think there can befreedom in using words to tell a
(51:23):
story, but the ultimate storythat is told better be God's
story, connected to his neverchanging words.
So praise be to God.
Colin, if people want toconnect with you, how can they
do so?
Speaker 4 (51:33):
Well, let's see they can connect with me on LinkedIn,
I think would be a good placeto start.
I am not going to give out myphone number or email.
That's all right.
As much as you do that and Ilove that you do that.
I think you are a verycourageous person and I think,
like I said, I love your podcast.
I'm flattered that you even,you know, had me on.
(51:53):
Hey, man, I don't usually get Idon't get asked to come on
after I, you know, send peoplecriticism to their podcast, but
they can connect with me onLinkedIn and I really appreciate
what you guys are doing, and soit's just been an absolute
honor to be a part of this andlook forward to more content and
leadership development from youguys.
Speaker 1 (52:14):
Hey, let's go.
Let's go Always more to learnand praying for you and your
mission and your congregation,and for our Wells brothers and
sisters as well.
This is lead time.
Please like, subscribe, commentwherever it is you take in
these podcasts, and we arehonored when people have a
difference of opinion and wouldlove to come on and talk about
it, because every time we do, wefind way more things that we
agree on, namely Christ and Himcrucified, than we disagree on.
(52:36):
I'm always looking to learn.
It's a good day, go and make ita great day.
Wonderful to meet you, colin.
God bless you guys.
Speaker 2 (52:41):
You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the
Unite Leadership Collective.
The ULC's mission is tocollaborate with the local
church to discover, develop anddeploy leaders through biblical
Lutheran doctrine and innovativemethods To partner with us in
this gospel message.
Subscribe to our channel, thengo to theuniteleadershiporg to
(53:02):
create your free login forexclusive material and resources
and then to explore ways inwhich you can sponsor an episode
.
Thanks for listening and staytuned for next week.
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