December 24, 2024 • 54 mins
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The episode highlights the importance of entrepreneurial leadership in the LCMS, emphasizing the need for innovative approaches in church ministry. It explores the connection between discipleship and leadership, discussing how trust and collaboration among leaders can drive effective change within congregations.
• Discussion on Zach's entrepreneurial journey while in seminary
• Emphasis on the LCMS culture and its hesitance towards entrepreneurship
• Importance of cultivating a spirit of risk-taking in church leadership
• Connection between discipleship and effective leadership development
• Highlighting the Red Letter Challenge and its impact on personal transformation
• Conversations on stories of hope within the church community
• Call to embrace change and innovation in faith practices
• Open dialogue and trust among church leaders as a crucial element for growth
Through meaningful interviews and heartfelt conversations, Friar Time, hosted by Fr....
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Lead Time listeners, tim Allman here.
We love at Lead Time bringingyou content to grow as leaders
in your ministry and beyond, butwe want to make sure that we're
hitting the mark, so can youhelp us out by filling this
five-question survey?
It's going to take less than aminute.
It helps us know what you likeabout the podcast.
We want to hear what topics youwant more of and even which
(00:21):
guests you'd love to hear fromnext.
Please let us know.
We want to know also how likelyyou are to recommend Lead Time
to a pastor, a friend or achurch leader.
Your feedback, it really reallymatters.
Check out the link in the shownotes and let us know what you
think.
Thank you for helping us leadbetter together.
God bless.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
This is Lead Time.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
All right, welcome to Lead Time, tim Allman here.
Jack Calvert is on vacation.
He's at some conference.
I don't know where Jack is, buttoday I get to hang out with my
friend.
Partner in the gospelaccountability, partner now for
a number of years, partner inloving the game of golf and
leadership formation years,partner in Loving the Game of
Golf and Leadership Formation,entrepreneurial Kingdom.
All the things are wrapped upinto Pastor Zach Zender.
(01:10):
How are you doing, zach?
Speaker 3 (01:11):
I'm doing great man.
I'm on Lead Time Podcast withmy buddy, tim.
What could be better?
You know?
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Well, the joy is mine .
Man, You're a gift.
As you look at the LCMS rightnow, there aren't many guys that
do as many wild things asyou've done Now.
You sold golf head.
Maybe we'll just start here.
When you were at the seminary,you made money selling golf head
(01:40):
covers.
Zach, that's very unusual.
You ran a business while youwere going to grad school.
Tell that story quick before Iget going, because I think it
kind of seeds.
Oh, this is why the cross waslaunched.
This is why Red Letter waslaunched.
God put something in you tostart new things, to reach
people, to provide for yourself,for sure, but then to reach new
(02:01):
people with the gospel, once itgot kind of turned toward that
end.
Like, tell that, tell thatstory.
You're a unique breed, ZachZender.
I love it.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Yeah, hey, I don't know that all the people like
that I'm that unique, but hey,it's for me, honestly, what I've
always been entrepreneurial.
I learned early on with my dadand my brother.
Going to sports card shows thatit is better to be behind the
table than in front of the table, and so we did everything we
could to collect enough to getbehind the table, because you
(02:30):
can charge more behind the table, and so I've always had that
entrepreneurial spirit and forme, I started something in
college that we then wentthrough seminary and even
honestly, tim into my firstseven years of church planting
in Florida.
We sold golf head covers.
We bought them in bulk fromgolf shops, country clubs and we
sold them individually on eBay,amazon, and that for me, was my
(02:52):
number one primary income, evento go be a church planter.
That was part of the reason whywe were able to plant the
churches.
I took a halftime salary thosefirst three years even though I
was working full time right offthe bat, and so that's kind of
like I've always been reallyentrepreneurial, like if people
really understand who I am, Ilove, you know, I love ministry
and I love being a pastor.
(03:14):
I'm probably more on theleadership communication side of
being a pastor less on theshepherding every day, if I look
, if I just look at my giftingsnot that I can't do those things
or won't do those things, butalways sort of been that
entrepreneurial guy thoughunderneath it all.
And so for me it was justselling golf head covers.
That's what.
I went to seminary, I did myvicarage in St Louis as well,
(03:37):
and anytime we could sell headcovers I'd be shipping them out
every day and we'd sell 150, 200a week or so on average and it
turned into a really great thingto get us through seminary debt
free.
And what's neat now is myteenage son, who just turned 17
today as we're recording kind ofcrazy, but he has resurrected
that head cover business thelast few years and now he's
(03:59):
doing it as a high schooler andjust yeah, super proud of him.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
So shout out to Nathan Zender getting after it,
bro, I love it, yeah, superproud of him.
So, yeah, shout out to NathanZender getting after it, bro.
Yeah, I love it and happybirthday to you.
So we need more entrepreneurialleaders in our church body.
I don't, I don't know why, Idon't know.
We're an older church body.
(04:33):
It appears as if the Luther anda lot of the early reformers had
this kind of because if you'rean entrepreneur you have a
higher tolerance toward risk,relational risk, financial risk,
right.
But I don't know that we havethat kind of being cultivated,
stewarded well to identify those, because not everybody has that
kind of a new start early, notjust early adopter, but like the
innovator.
It's a very small percentage inany organization, right, I mean
, it may be 5% tops.
(04:55):
My take as I look at the widerLCMS is it's closer to 1% maybe,
and so you're even more of kindof the black sheep anomaly.
You kind of push the boundaries, it's even.
You're even more of kind of theblack sheep anomaly, you kind
of push the boundaries, that'swho, that's who you are.
So let's just, yeah, any kindof take on how the culture I
guess in our church body is kindof adverse to entrepreneurs.
(05:16):
Zach.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
Yeah.
So I mean, in some ways, everychurch plant and every RSO and
every nonprofit like, in someways, was started by an
entrepreneur or someone who hadthat spirit and so in a sense we
do have it there, but forwhatever reason, we're not
cultivating it.
Well, right now in our Lutheranchurch, missouri synod.
And I do think we have to alsolook at what's going on in
culture.
(05:38):
When you look at, like, highschool Gen Z, right now, the
number one job that they want todo is be an entrepreneur.
We're seeing that in the gigeconomy that, like there's
people that don't want thenormal jobs.
They're bouncing around there.
They're, they're becomingentrepreneurs because they want
to own their schedule, theflexibility, and so they're
working to be contractors ontheir own hours where they can
work where they want.
(05:59):
I think I saw a study that waslike, or heard one that was like
72% of high schoolers want tobe entrepreneurs.
That's a lot of people.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Now part of me is like they don't understand fully
what it's like to be anentrepreneur.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
It ain't always easy, it sounds easy and there's
definitely pros and cons andbenefits to it, but it's
challenging.
And so for me, tim, yeah, Ithink we've lost on a large
scale what it looks like to bean entrepreneur in our synod,
and I don't think we've had manythat have been a voice for
other entrepreneurs, and part ofme is saddened by that, because
I really believe in the LCMS,which I'm a fourth generation
(06:33):
LCMS pastor.
I really believe we've got thepurest of the doctrines, the
gospel, the justification bygrace through faith, and if
anybody ought to be starting newthings like crazy, it's us.
That's the, that's the fuelthat should get us to start.
We've got everything we need,we, we, we don't have anything
we don't need.
We've got Jesus Christ andeternity, the confidence that we
(06:54):
walk with, not by our works butby his, and so that in alone
like ought to be enough for usto just do bold things and take
risks that nobody else iswilling to take, and for
whatever reason, we stop withthe intellectual ascent of
justification by grace throughfaith and we don't work it out
in sanctification.
So to me, it is a sanctificationissue, it's a discipleship
(07:14):
issue and it's not something wecultivate and there aren't a lot
of leaders that are goingbefore.
And if I can be one for others,I want to be that to say like,
because I've had to kind of walkthis journey not totally alone
but I can pull in the BillWoolseys of our church and a few
others that have made impactbeyond LCMS.
But we've got what it takes andwe've got the doctrine and
(07:37):
we've got everything we need andyet there's just something that
there's a spirit that's notpresent right now in our
leadership at the top level downthat is preventing a lot of the
newness and the ideas and therisk takers and the bold people
that are ready to storm thegates of hell.
There's a breaks system to ourdenomination.
(07:58):
That's just really frustratingright now.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Yeah, that's good.
We have a propensity towardwhat Edwin Friedman who was a
Jewish rabbi, not a Christian,he's more of a sociologist in
family systems theory called thehurting mentality.
There's a stickiness to thishurting mentality that keeps
(08:25):
people from individually.
So this is all in leadership,it's always the us and the me,
the me and the we.
Right and healthy folks aredifferentiated enough to speak
for self to say I think we couldtry something here, and leaders
go first, right, and then it'sgoing to be okay, is the other
(08:46):
thing we say.
You know, and so if there werejust more leaders saying we
could do this and we want to bea voice for that here at the ULC
, right, we could try some newthings, we could test it.
It doesn't mean we're throwingthe baby out of the bag.
You're going to compromise onabsolutely everything.
Oh, by the way, Jesus is stillon the throne.
Still, word and sacrament isthe main thing.
Still, two kinds ofrighteousness, the way we
(09:07):
understand the scriptures, youknow, law, gospel, handles, like
all of these things are stillthe foundation of what we do.
And out of that foundation andit is a family systems thing out
of that foundation, I haveother people who are cheering
for me.
I have a dad, you have a dad.
I have a wider group of peoplewho say you know what it's going
to be.
Okay, we can try new things andnot compromise on theology.
(09:28):
Think about the early church.
Again, the early church is notprescriptive, it's descriptive
of what God did, but a lot ofthat description needs to.
You're going to be okay, andthen Jesus.
It seems unkind for Jesus tojust ascend, Doesn't it?
I mean, I gave you this greatmission go and make disciples of
all nations Jerusalem, Judea,Samaria you're going to be.
(09:50):
And then he just gave us thespirit, just the spirit.
Listen to us, man.
You have everything you needbecause you have the comfort of
the consoler, the leader, theone who's going to be speaking
for you.
When you don't know what you'regoing to say, what you're going
to try, it really is adenigration of the work of the
Holy Spirit and trust of theHoly Spirit.
Anything more to say there,Zach, though?
(10:10):
I think we've got all the goods.
I'm just doubling down on whatyou're saying.
We got all the goods.
Are we going to live with aspirit of fear or a spirit of
faith, trusting the Holy Spiritto be at work.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
Anything more there, Zach, oh gosh, a lot more, I
think yeah, part of it too is,by the way, we're going to mess
up at times, and our doctrine isso amazing that when we mess up
, we've got this beautiful giftof grace.
And I do love theology and Idon't want to compromise
theology, but what I will tellyou is any sort of bad theology
is also something that can becovered by the grace of God, and
(10:40):
so we cannot live with thisfear mindset.
No-transcript.
(11:06):
And before Peter says anything,jesus meets him and tells him
essentially by the way, you knowthat I don't have to pay the
tax and my kids don't have topay the tax either.
But just to appease, because wegot a bigger mission going on
right now, why don't you goahead and cast your net out
there?
Put the pole in the sea ofGalilee, where there are
thousands upon thousands of fish, and you will happen to find a
(11:29):
two denarii coin that's going totake care of both you and me,
even though we have to pay it.
I will pay it for you, I'll payyour debt and I'm going to pay
mine, even though I don't needto, just because we got bigger
fish to fry.
And what I love about this is hecorrects his bad theology, like
even there in that story withhim paying the tax, like it's
bad theology to pay the tax forand he does it anyway, just
(11:52):
because there's there's stuff tomove on.
There's bigger things.
So what I'm not advocating hereis that we have in our
denomination that this mindsetthat theology trumps everything
else.
I think is got to go JesusChrist on his throne like
(12:13):
justification by grace, throughfaith.
Let's work it out, let's trustone another, let's go for things
we're going about thosemistakes.
Let's have grace for oneanother, forgive one another and
keep moving on, rather thanadvocating that we should not
and cannot do anything new inour church body for the sake of
the purity of the doctrine.
(12:34):
I love our purity of doctrine,but let's go.
Now is the time.
So anyway, I got a lot more Icould say on it, but those are
just a few.
I'm not that passionate aboutit.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
It's great, dude, I love your passion.
And God's mission has a church.
The mission the church doesn'thave a mission.
God's mission has a church.
Like, if you miss that, all ofscripture and this is theology,
and I'd love to hear anybodychallenge that.
God's mission is to seek and tosave the lost.
(13:07):
God's mission is to get all ofhis kids back, those that were
riddled in sin, far from him.
This is why Jesus became flesh.
This is why Jesus perfectlyfulfills the law, dies our death
, rises again to give us hope inthis life and in the life to
come.
And now he's mobilizing achurch to bring his word into
the world, to be salt and lightin a dark and dying world, and
(13:28):
and to let people know thatGod's done it all and he wants
to continually remind us howmuch he loves us through the
sacraments.
Like this is not I don't thinkthis should be a debate at all
and then we're going to trustone another in our various
contexts to handle that said.
Confession for the sake of thefound, for the sake of
discipleship, for the sake ofdisciples being released to care
(13:49):
for those who are far from Godin our various vocations Like
this is like Lutheranism 101.
I don't even know why there is adebate on this.
So, yeah, I think it's more.
I think it's more sociological,I think it's more like I talked
about the hurting, the anxiety.
I think it's more like I talkedabout the hurting, the anxiety
of the world going in a certaindirection and then the church
(14:12):
kind of knee jerk reacting tothat.
We can't be like the world.
This is going to compromise.
Jesus says my kingdom is not ofthis world and so we've got to
keep all of our wonderful, ourLutheran distinctives, two kinds
of righteousness, the tworealms, the right and the left,
like we've got all of thesewonderful handles for us.
But it does require leaderstaking responsibility for self
(14:34):
and in the group of people thatthey have led, taking
responsibility for bad behavior.
People talking about peoplerather than to people, people
developing these small, becauseI think our biggest issue in the
LCMS, having talked to a lot ofpeople on both sides of the
proverbial aisle, is the hurtingtribalism that is taking place
(14:59):
and having an ever narrowerdefinition of my people.
Let me just speak into this.
Jesus was crucified because hedidn't narrow down, he expanded
out.
All of these people are mypeople he eats and hangs out
with.
Can you believe so-and-so ishanging out with Tim Allman and
Zach Zender?
(15:20):
Jesus was ridiculed for hangingout with the other the tax
collector, the sinner, those whoare far from and so we have
narrowly understood what itmeans to be a part of the church
and I think we've forgotten theway Jesus did ministry and why
he was crucified because hedidn't play the Pharisees game,
he reserved the hardest wordsinside the church, right.
(15:41):
And so where there isPhariseeism, we're trying to
have our identity be anythingother than baptized as a child
of God.
We're making our identity basedon who we hang out with, rather
than the one who hangs out withus the Father, the Son and the
Holy Spirit by grace, throughfaith.
Like this is very, verydysfunctional and needs leaders
to confess it and invite oneanother.
Hey, I have a lot to learn fromthat person.
(16:02):
I got a lot.
I'll just be specific.
Like there are brothers who arein different contexts who
deeply love the liturgy deeplylove and I deeply love the
liturgy.
Like they've learned certainthings, though that may be
helpful for me in telling thewhy behind the what of, why the
Lutheran liturgy is helpful.
(16:23):
Like that's great.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
But are we even talking to one another?
I don't know that.
We are Zach thoughts there.
Are we talking to one another?
I don train leaders that I knowwe're the most that I know of.
There's just very few paths andthere's not relevant paths for
training up leaders today thatdon't require moving and just
upheaval of our families becausewe want everybody to fit into
(17:05):
that one system.
Now, once you go through thatsystem, there's still not a
level of trust.
I've went through the systemand there's not a lot of trust
sometimes.
But what helps is when I get totalk to a Christian brother and
they talk to me and I talk tothem and we get to hear one
another's stories.
I'm a part of our circuit herein Omaha and King of Kings has
(17:30):
always kind of been known as oneof the more modern contemporary
expressions, and so once ortwice some of my brothers have
asked me questions about why wedo things the way we do things
and I'm able to share our answerand whether they agree with my
answer, whether I agree withtheir answer.
Like we still like each other,we're on the same team and
because we're talking to oneanother and I think that's one
(17:52):
of the cool things like with myred letter world, tim, is that I
do.
You know there's a lot oflike-minded people that you know
worship in the same way or thatwould share a lot of my
characteristics with how we doministry, but there's also a lot
that don't.
There's a lot of churches thatdo things different, and I think
what I love about the redletter side of things is we try
to keep things as focused and asunified on Jesus as we can,
(18:15):
because I'm hoping, I am hopingand praying that at least we can
unify on Jesus is our Saviorand Lord is about putting his
words into practice.
I'm hoping we can unify that.
This is who Jesus is and it'simportant that we put his words
into practice, and I've foundthat to be unifying, and it's
also opened up doors for me totalk with some people that I
(18:36):
probably wouldn't have talkedwith in our natural setting or
that they wouldn't have talkedwith me, and I love getting into
conversations and helpingchurches that think differently
and are different, and we'realso, by the way, way more than
just Lutheran Church MissouriSynod and I love the fact that
our justification by grace,through faith undertones is now
(18:56):
bringing a sanctification answerwith it that's now impacting
more so than just ourdenomination, and I want to tell
our denomination and ourleaders we've got really great
stuff in here that others arelistening to out there and it's
making a difference.
But we need to get it out thereand that's what we're trying to
do is get this out there and itreally can make a difference.
And so to me it boils down totrust.
(19:18):
And if we don't talk to oneanother, how can we trust one
another?
And if we're putting it allinto one system and then we
don't even trust that thatsystem raises up the people.
You know it's, it's crazy Likethere's so many people right now
that, as they're planning forthe national youth gathering
next year, that have wentthrough our system and played by
the rules and done everythingthe right way that cannot even
(19:39):
get approved by denominationalleadership right now, that now
the whole thing is way behindschedule for planning, and I
don't even know if I'm supposedto say that, but it's like crazy
.
There's just no trust in oursystem for the people that we've
made into one system andthey're saying we can't add any
other systems to it.
So I don't get how this isgoing to work out in the end.
(20:01):
Well, if we continue to do whatwe're doing, we've got to change
up something, and to me, itdoes.
That's why I love what you'redoing, tim, and you know I'm a
constant supporter of you, andUnite Leadership Collective is
you are.
You are saying we're going totrain up leaders and and we're
going to go, and cool, I'm withyou, man.
We got to train up leaders.
We need, we need disciples.
Let's do this and let's go, andGod be with us.
(20:23):
And we're going to makemistakes, by the way, as we do
it, and I'm so grateful thatwhen we make mistakes, that
we've got the grace of God andwe've got each other and a large
number of people that are withus in our corner to say we're
going to keep moving because thegospel and the kingdom of God
is bigger and above all thesethings that we're talking about
today.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
That's good man.
There is a resolution that'sbeing put forward about the
prior approval list to createmore transparency and, honestly,
greater trust hopefully, godwilling, with synodical
leadership, because there's alot that happens behind closed
doors and I think it's aboutidentity politics in our small
(21:06):
little corner of the kingdom,rather than actual substance and
content, because what theresolution basically says if you
want to send me an email,tallman at cglchurchorg what it
basically says is, hey, ifthey're not on, if they're not
approved for whatever speakingat National Youth Gathering or
for a position at one of ouruniversities, seminaries, etc.
Would you please bring chargesas to why they're not approved?
(21:29):
What, heresy sir, have theyspoken that keeps them from
being on said list?
Like, you got to bring thatstuff public.
There are some people thatbelieve and we're going to have
one of our brothers on, gregBierce, here who's been on
there's a story to be shared andit's really, really.
I'm not even going to get intoit right now.
It's very, very dysfunctional,but the heart of it is Matthew
(21:52):
18, not being followed and evenbeing justified, saying I don't
have to talk about you to you.
I can talk about you to otherpeople because you're in a
public position, like howdysfunctional is that?
And we need to bring what's inthe dark into the light, and
this is one attempt to do to dothat, and it it cause trust is,
is eroding and it's unfortunate.
(22:12):
So let's go back to red.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
Yeah, real quick, though, like I was super honored
and blessed.
That was a like a monumental,you know, moment in my life to
lead from the stage the youthgathering in 2022.
And like this is the beautiful,like I don't know that there's
anything more beautiful than thenational youth gathering that
we put on every three years.
(22:35):
And and like the sad part aboutit is because all this stuff is
just getting kicked down.
The, the, the can just keepsgetting kicked down and there's
no resolution is the people thatare going to lose out on the
end of this are the receivingend.
It's our Gen Z, it's our highschoolers, and they're going to
get a shadow version of whatcould have been, because a few
(22:58):
people at the top cannot proceedforward with this because they
don't like it for whateverreason.
And it's crazy, like the onlythings they show about the 2022
National Youth Gathering are thethings from the traditional
worship service where we'redoing the sacrament and where
our president preaches.
And why would we not want tohighlight this stuff and share
(23:19):
with the rest of the world?
This is the best of the best ofthe LCMS coming together, and
there's nothing being shown fromsome of the really amazing
things.
What's crazy is, then we'llalso then highlight, like that
we brought in a concert or ateam who's amazing for King and
Country, who are not Lutheran.
So, like I, don't get what wedo and why we highlight certain
(23:42):
things and why we limit thegospel in certain ways and at
the end of it, the people thatare paying for it are the next
generation and they may not evenknow that, but it will be
unless they get their acttogether.
And the team that works on theyouth gathering they're fabulous
, they're going to do everythingthey can to try to rise above
the ridiculous leadership at thetop and still put out an
(24:04):
amazing few days for ourchildren and our youth to have a
great experience.
I believe in them, I trust inthem, but I'm also wondering
will they even be able to do it?
Or have they been so hampered,or will they be so hampered that
this becomes a real shadow ofwhat it's been?
And I hope it doesn't, becauseto me it's one of the seminal
things.
Where you've got musicians,you've got artists, you've got
(24:26):
speakers, you've got over andover and over some of the best
of the best and like we don'tshare any of that.
We just share that we had atraditional worship service with
sacrament on Sunday and sharethat.
That's fine, but where's theother stuff?
Like we got so much good stuffgoing on in our denomination and
it's not getting shared.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Yeah, no, that's that is true.
The full story is not beingshared in a number of our
publications.
And my kids I got three highschoolers, zach.
They're already signed up.
I just actually filled out thepaperwork for them to go.
Your boys are going as well.
I like.
It was such a formative timefor me going to the national
(25:05):
youth gathering.
It was in Atlanta back in theday and then that was one of the
milestone kind of events thatsaid, wow, ministry could be for
you.
And I see all these other kidswho, in their various vocations,
are now out and I don't.
Is it going to be a shadow ofwhat it's been in the past?
That would be very, veryunfortunate.
(25:25):
And it's remarkably Lutherandude.
Anybody that says we're marriedto these forms in the LCMS.
These forms become the idolrather than what the forms point
to.
And no one can go to theNational Youth Gathering and say
you know what?
Jesus wasn't talked about there.
Jesus is obviously not thecenter.
(25:46):
No, jesus is the center pointof the entire experience.
And then kids falling more inlove by the Spirit's power, with
Scripture and creativeexpressions of the gospel.
Why is that liberal?
Why is that counter to?
It's really, really hamperingthe next generation.
Where are a lot of our let'sjust talk this our churches are
(26:08):
a little little.
There's nothing against smallchurch Like this isn't a small,
but we have a higher percentageof the larger churches have a
higher percentage of kids thatended up going and experiencing
this.
And if it's not evencommensurate with what they get
at their local level, they'relooking at like what kind of
church body is this?
This is bad.
I'm going to use a worldly term.
This is really bad marketing.
Lcms Really bad marketing notto highlight what the Lord has
(26:32):
done in the National YouthGathering.
I know this has been a burr inyour saddle for a number of
years.
For a number of you in higherlevel leadership, it's been a
burr like if we could just getrid of this.
Come on, man, in the localchurch are there sometimes
things that you're like you know, I don't know that I actually
do that that tradition let'sjust bring.
I think a lot of times when youtalk national, you just need to
bring it down local.
You know Well, like I don'tknow about that youth group, if
(26:55):
I'd actually lead it like that,like some pastors may say, but
for the sake of like thatgeneration connecting, I don't
know if I'd play all those riskygames or whatever, but for the
sake of that generationconnecting, it'd be sin for me
as a leader to get in the way ofthat Take it up to the national
level and we're making the samekind of error.
(27:15):
At this point, zach, I'll letyou land that plane.
We can go off on the.
I don't think I've everactually gone off this long.
About the National YouthGathering, let me say this you
were awesome, it was cool to beconnected.
My kids were like because mydaughter went and they're like,
you know, zach Zender, oh wow,zach's cool, zach's cool, and
they thought you were wayyounger than you actually are
right, because, anyway, it waskind of a funny event.
(27:36):
But there is something to letme land the plane here.
There is something to thelarger gathering.
Right, think about Jesus.
Let's bring it to Jesus.
Jesus fed the disciples couldhave said I don't know, there
was a few hundred, 5,000 people,not mentioning kids and their
moms.
This is a huge stadium typeevent where Jesus showed up and
(28:02):
showed off.
We can have the smaller, wehave to have the smaller, but
there's also space for theselarger like oh wow, you too, I'm
not alone, let's go on mission.
I mean, that's the vibe thatthe National Youth Gathering has
had over the years and to losethat would be a big time loss
for the LCMS.
Zach, land that plane.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
Yeah, and I would.
I would just tell you, tim,it's.
It's not on the marketing andhow we limit this is not on the
people that are in theday-to-day of planning the
gathering.
They're the greatest people andthey're ready to go and they
believe in it, they love it,they're going to give their
everything for it.
It's somewhere else, it'shappening somewhere else where
it gets limited and I just Idon't understand it.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
Yep, all right.
Hey, let's go to something youdo understand, which is Red
Letter.
Talk about the journey of RedLetter, like your favorite parts
of what the Lord's done nowmoving from the cross after 11
years.
To start this while you were atthe cross, praise God, to then
(29:03):
now it's.
There can be ups and downs, Ithink.
Just get us behind the scenes alittle bit, because you and I
talk all the time, so Idefinitely know it.
But, like I think a lot oftimes people could look at Red
Letter and, oh, zach's probablymaking all sorts of money, and
they got there's a big thing.
You know they're going beyondthe LCMS and so, but now it's,
it's an entrepreneurial ventureand it can be a little like oh
gosh, god, I have to rely on youthrough this season.
(29:24):
I'm going to put in the work,but I'm going to release it.
Release it to you.
Tell the red letter story alittle bit, Zach.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
Yeah, man, it's something that I never really
planned on.
God put this idea in me in 2011that the best way to follow
Jesus is to follow Jesus.
That discipleship isn't easy,but understanding it is, and I
think sometimes weovercomplicate discipleship and
disciple making at the start ofit, and I think the wrong first
question that a lot of peopleand church leaders are asking is
(29:56):
how do I make disciples?
And the better first questionis are you committed to
following Jesus?
Cause, like we don't need toreinvent anything, like let's
just go back and do what he said, and that was the initial idea
was I don't know how to tellthese people how to be disciples
, but I can just tell them toread Jesus's words and put them
into practice, and so that'swhat we did in 2011.
I did 40 blogs on it and justtook random commands of Jesus,
(30:18):
random red letters of Jesus witha Greek imperative and, you
know, do what he said.
So some days were more likeinternal abide in my word.
And so the challenge today ishey, read God's word for 30
minutes and share what youlearned.
Some were more external.
You know, love your neighbor asyourself, and so, physically,
literally, go do something tolove your neighbor today and
share what you did, and it was areally great experience.
In 40 days my little church planat that point, which had just
(30:40):
started what happened?
Our church, little church, grew.
Our community is always betterwhen you put the words of Jesus
into practice.
But the one that was the mostsurprising is longtime
Christians talked about howfulfilling and rewarding it was
to follow Jesus, and I knewthere was something bigger with
this, so we did it again thenext year.
I tweaked it a little bit in2012.
And then, over a five-yearprocess from there, developed
(31:03):
five targets in Red LetterChallenge.
That probably, is the one humanelement that I think is really
really, as I reverse engineer,like God, why have you anointed
this project?
Obviously, the main idea isgreat, and it's not mine, it's
Jesus's.
Do what I said.
It tells us that in the end ofthe Sermon on the Mount,
probably the human elementthat's really good is organizing
around these five targets,because I think that's where
(31:24):
people don't get to is like,what is it?
That's a really great idea tofollow Jesus, but like break it
down a little more.
And so we broke it down intofive targets that we felt like
came out of the mouth of JesusBe forgive, serve, give and go.
Be forgive, serve, give and go,and that sort of gave it some
sticky stickiness, some stayingpower.
(31:44):
That these five targets aresomething, then, that I can form
my life around, I can form mychurch around.
And is that all that Jesus saidis an exhaustive list?
No, but it's a really greatplace to start and most people
in most churches don't have thatlanguage in place or that
starting point.
And so 2018, january is when RedLetter Challenge, the official
(32:05):
40-day challenge, came out afterseven years, and it was one of
those things I was like cool God.
I feel like I was faithful tothat project.
We put some good investmentinto it and had a couple of
partners that helped us get itto where it was in the beginning
.
Some family, friends and theysacrificed to do that and
churches started picking it upand have a great experience
because with the books we had,you know everything else that
(32:26):
you'd want for a 40 day turnkeyexperience at your church.
And by the end of 19, 2019,allison and I were really left
with like a real dilemma, likethe church was growing, but it
was really complex and we hadour probably our hardest year in
2019, even before COVID, welost the lease on our space and
had to move portable and at thatpoint we were 600, 700 people a
(32:48):
weekend having to go portablein a small town and it was just
really a challenging year.
On top of that, red letter stuffwas like just exploding and
we're like God, what are wedoing?
What are you doing here?
And so, through a lot of prayer, I talked with Kerry Newhoff.
He came down to Orlando andwe'd gotten to know each other a
little bit and he saidsomething that really stuck out
(33:13):
to me that you know when you,when you put 10 times in the
energy over here and over herewas the cross and you get one
out of it Um, but then you putone times the energy over here
and here would be red letter andyou get 10 out of it Um, he's
like.
That, for me, was when I knew inhis world, the podcast was his
other answer or thing that hewas wrestling with, he's like.
And that's when I really kindof knew that God was moving me
more towards that and thatreally resonated with me.
(33:36):
Not that what I was puttinginto the cross wasn't great, it
was so fun.
I loved, loved, loved that 11year chapter and I miss it in
some ways because I'mentrepreneurial.
I loved being a part of a newthing where God was doing
something.
But we really, really felt likeGod was here.
And our job in life is not to uh, not to say I'm going to go
(33:57):
here and God you show up, it'sjust to say God, where are you?
And that's where we really feltlike he was and and those that
heard the first few minutes knowthat it kind of fit my
entrepreneurial spirit anywayand my wife.
Her passion is writing and itallowed her an outlet to do what
she does and what she loves,because she writes all of our
kids material and so much morefor us and she even helps me in
(34:19):
my writing, which I probablyneed.
And so it just really allowedus an opportunity to impact the
Capital C Church, which is amuch different call than the
local C Church, but the local CChurch is still really important
to me and I'm a fourthgeneration pastor and so I'm
still a teaching pastor at Kingof Kings and also heavily
involved in the multi-site partof what we do at King of Kings
(34:39):
and so still here at officethree times a week, three days a
week, I should say.
So I care about the localchurch, but also it's given me
an opportunity to impact theCapital C Church too.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
Hey, man, grateful that you listened to the Lord's
call and I know that was a tough.
You and I were talking through,praying, through all of those
things, and the Lord has blessed.
It's kind of got to be a uniqueexperience.
To birth I got a little bit ofan experience having launched
the table and then, five yearslater, this was a meal and
(35:12):
worship inclusive of, but notexclusively, for the working,
poor and homeless in Denver.
And leaving that and cominghere 12 years ago, man, there
was some like heavy grief, guiltand then release, guilt and
then release, and I bet you'vekind of gone through through all
of those kinds of cycles ofsaying, hey, it wasn't mine to
(35:32):
begin with, this is, this isyour thing, and I think that's
the way we kind of have toapproach anything
entrepreneurial.
Right, I mean, it's not youLike red letter isn't even, it's
the Lord's thing, and so,whatever he wants to, there's
some freedom that comes out ofthat.
Zach isn't there Talking tokind of the freedom of release
to the Lord.
Speaker 3 (35:51):
Yeah for sure.
And I think what it allows meto see, Tim, is that we're
called to continually try toinvent and new things and risk
for where we know God is already.
And so when we think about itfrom the LCMS standpoint,
especially from a training up ofleaders and I'm more in the
discipleship than the leadershipspace, but they're so
(36:12):
intertwined right To me not allleaders are disciples, but every
disciple is a leader, and so weneed both discipleship and
leadership, and so I'm more onthe discipleship day-to-day
stuff than the leadership stuff.
But I do think that, at the endof the day, the LCMS and the
future of our LCMS really doesdepend on are we training up
(36:32):
leaders?
Now, I would hope that theseleaders are disciples.
So I would want to comeunderneath the leaders and
really put and pour a lot morediscipleship stuff into them
than we currently do so thatthey're a more effective leader.
But are we training up leaders?
And so what I think this allowsus to do is we know that Jesus
is for the church, he institutedit, and the gates of hell will
(36:53):
not prevail against capital Cthe church.
So we know he's for that.
So what that allows us to do is, underneath that we can try new
things and we can risk newthings, that we can try new
things and we can risk newthings.
And then guess what?
If the Lord blesses it andanoints it, we can continue to
walk in that path.
(37:13):
And if the Lord doesn't blessit and anoint it and there's no
momentum and movement there, wecan say we tried and we can try
something else again.
It allows us a spirit to tryand risk and innovate and then,
when you see God show up, youstep more fully into it.
I think, from a personal level,from a professional level and
from a corporate level, theseare the things that we're called
(37:35):
to do.
Is God, where are you?
Where have you already promisedto be, and how can I put myself
there to use my gifts to thepower of the Holy Spirit to be
where you already are?
And provided you do somethingcool, let's step even more into
it.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
Amen, amen.
Hey, let's talk about risk inlike the early church, because I
think you live, we've seen theradical shift in our culture,
you know, and Christians areobviously not in the majority.
We're an increasing minoritykind of kingdom people, those
that are people of the book,those that are people of the way
(38:12):
of Jesus, and so I thinkembracing some of the struggles
of the early church are helpfulfor us, like think about the
societal and cultural andtheological risk of elevating
Gentiles to equal status withJews, I think, because that is,
I mean, Book of Galatians, likethe second half of the Book of
(38:34):
Acts.
It's like trying to figure outwhat do we do with these people
who are the outsiders who havebeen brought near.
That was a risky propositionthen, for Peter, right, I mean
Acts chapter, and Peter had hiskind of waffling moments.
You know Acts 10 moment, whenwhy should you call anything
that God has created clean,unclean?
Like let them in and then Ilove it.
(38:57):
The end of Acts 10, it's theGentile conversion.
Can anyone withhold water fromthese guys?
And it's kind of like a Bueller.
You know Bueller, is anybodygoing to speak?
Okay, baptize them, bring themin, like that was societally and
theologically risky.
Anything more to say to thatZach?
Yeah, just that yeah, so much.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
Acts 10 is such a great, great chapter where you
have God working throughCornelius, this amazing Gentile
that somehow was God fearing,even though you know his culture
and everything else was maybepressing against it.
So God is working on him.
And then, all of a sudden,peter goes up to the roof to
pray at noon, which, by the way,is not a normal time.
(39:39):
I think we should give it upfor Peter.
We talk about all the badthings he does, but like he's
praying at a time he didn't haveto, and but he has to pray
because, like, think about beinga part of that early church and
how confusing and hard it wasand how his brothers are getting
martyred for the faith.
And now this guy that waspersecuting is now a part of the
church somehow and I need towelcome him.
I probably need to work out myown inner feelings about how I
(40:01):
feel about Saul, paul, and likethere's so much going on.
And then and then in Acts nine Ithink it's Acts nine right
before that chapter like Peter's, peter's healing, healing
people, like by the things thatJesus was, like he's touching
hems of God, like they'retouching him and like he's.
How prideful I would be, youwould be, we would be tempted to
be like.
So I love the fact that Peterprays at noon and that he's
(40:24):
hungry and he dreams about meat.
I think that's really anybodythat's ever dreamt about meat, I
think loves that chapter.
But here's what I love aboutthis one the entrepreneurial,
the risk side comes in, what Godwas doing in that story, and
again he has to tell Peter threetimes, because things come in
threes for Peter.
What God is telling Peter inthat story is stuff, meat, meat
that was previously off the menuis now on the menu.
(40:46):
There's a new way to do thingsnow and and and I need you to be
the spokesperson for that andPeter's still not sure what to
do about that, but in God'ssovereignty he's already
prepared Cornelius to come andto meet with Peter to share like
.
Here's the interpretation ofthat.
I love that God is working ontwo different people in two
different places on one mission,and I think technologically we
(41:09):
can do that so much more todaythan we've ever been able to.
But the fact that the churchwas doing great things, mighty
and powerful things, and yet inActs 10 needed to be corrected
and needed a bigger mission andneeded to be told by God.
What was once off-menu is nowon-menu, and so, as we look,
this especially for me, tim isreally important with the
(41:30):
technological world we live inwe're doing a podcast that right
now we would not have been ableto do 25 years ago.
There's this thing called theinternet that this will land on,
and this was not on the menu 25years ago.
It is on the menu now, and whatalso was not on the menu 25
years ago, it is on the menu now.
And what also was not on themenu 25 years ago was to train
anybody online to become aleader of our church.
(41:52):
But what is on the menu now isyou can do super good, effective
training online in localized,regionalized contexts and people
almost every denominationthat's worth their salt has
figured out how to do that, andwe have not.
And so what I want to say iswhat the Lord told Peter in Acts
, chapter 10, what was off menuis now on menu, which means we
(42:14):
got to change the way we dothings, and so that to me is
like entrepreneurial, it's risky, it's a course correction for
the greater capital city church,because times have changed.
And so what does that look likefor us today?
It means we can do thingsdifferently.
We can train online.
We can have even videoteachings in other campuses,
because if we're not training upthe pastors, we've got to get a
(42:36):
message that is grace-basedLutheran from an ordained pastor
into those places.
If we're going to be in thislimited structure, we've got to
figure out how we're going to dothat, and there's not enough
people to go around.
And so cool, now you can listento a message from anybody, from
any Lutheran church if they havethe technological advances to
do that, and also take a littlebit of the pressure off of the
(42:57):
pastor who is pastoring a churchdoing it by himself.
That's probably overtapped,because there's not leaders in
his context being being trainedup.
So you can actually be an ally,I can be an ally.
We can be an ally for oneanother and provide training
that is different today than itwas 25 years ago.
It's through a video screen.
Now I'm not saying it's themost effective and that's the
only way to do things, but it'sa way it's effective, it's
(43:20):
working in other places and so,anyway, you got me going and I
just happened to be doing astudy on Acts 10 not that long
ago, and so I'm ready to rockwith that one.
Speaker 1 (43:30):
So off menu, on menu.
Dude, that's a.
That's a legit rhetorical hookright there.
The Holy Spirit is expandingour menu options today.
Now I don't know if we win theLCMS.
We're definitely not like theCheesecake Factory.
Like Cheesecake Factory, thatmenu is ginormous.
Like I don't think we need allthat, but we need to be
(43:52):
somewhere.
Okay, from fast food I'm justgoing with the metaphor From
fast food to Cheesecake Factory.
There are these like walk-upstations where it's a little bit
faster, but they're still kindof like.
The LCMS just seems to move inthat direction.
Please, please.
So anyway, it's so good.
Zach, I've said so much on thattopic.
Thanks for doubling down on it.
(44:13):
We have a leadershipdevelopment shortage and
opportunity today and we need totell more stories.
Let's close with hope.
I mean, we've talked a lotabout some opportunities for
growth in the LCMS.
Today let's talk about thestories of hope.
We need to tell those more.
What makes you, as you look atthe broader landscape of the
LCMS, what gives you hope andjoy?
Zach?
Speaker 3 (44:32):
Jesus is still on his throne and he's working through
people and no matter what we dothat's been my message this
election season no matter whatwe do or no matter who gets
elected, jesus ain't getting offthe throne again.
He got off for 34 time, stampedyears to redeem us and rescue
(44:53):
us.
But he very firmly and squarelyat least from a metaphorical,
figurative standpoint that theLord invites us into this
imagery to think about and todwell on he took back his seat
on the throne in Revelation 4and 5 and Hebrews 9 and 10.
He paid with his own blood andretook his seat, and the more we
tether to that Jesus, who isseated on the throne and
(45:16):
sovereign and in control, themore, from a personal and a
church corporate level, we'regoing to be okay.
I think that's what I love aboutbeing a part of red letter.
I've been able to travel alittle bit more the last few
weeks.
There's a couple of seasons ofthe year where I travel a good
bit and then there's manyseasons where I don't.
I've been in one of those, andso it's nice to get to meet and
see people that your work youknow.
(45:38):
You don't know like is yourwork impacting, you know
people's lives or not, and andso in the last three weeks, tim,
I've gotten to hear these,these things individually and
corporately.
Um, I got to hear, uh, a familyfrom a family.
I was at a conference and theythey said, hey, through red
letter challenge, one of thechallenges was to tithe for six
(45:58):
months, and me and my husbanddid that, and you're the reason
why.
And now, of course, it was Godthrough the Holy spirit, through
me, through my words, andyou're the reason why.
And now, of course, it was God,through the Holy Spirit,
(46:18):
through me, through my words,through the page, that did that.
But and they've never stoppedsince then, and and and they've
talked about the joy that theyhave in generosity.
Jesus is generous.
And now said he talked with aman that for 70 years has kept a
secret inside of an infidelityand that the people you know
that are in his life that wouldhave cared, have all passed on.
And he said I've never told asoul and I'm telling you, pastor
, um, about this sin and I needyour forgiveness.
And the pastor, like in himwere in tears and the pastor,
(46:40):
like, obviously forgave him.
And then the guy said if youneed to tell this story to
anybody else so that they can,too, have freedom, share the
story.
And so, like, the grace ofJesus is so big and it covers
enough of us, and so those arelike personal stories I love
hearing on the church side wehad a actually a huge mega
church, like 6,000 people,multiple campuses in Georgia
(47:04):
that just went through RedLetter Challenge and at the end
of it they said we had hundredsof people that through this
challenge, like recommitted topracticing the words of Jesus,
and I say none of that likeabout my challenge, but what we
try to do in the challenges iscenter back on this Jesus guy.
That is pretty amazing, that weall love, that is a friend, that
(47:29):
is a brother, but right now isthe King of Kings seated on his
throne, sovereign and in control.
And so what brings me hope isnothing I do or nothing you do
will take God off of his throne.
Nothing anybody else does orleadership does that I disagree
with will take God off of histhrone.
Nothing anybody else does orleadership does that I disagree
with will take God off of histhrone.
He's still there and his graceis still for me and for others,
(47:51):
and the more people get in touchwith that person, the person of
Jesus Christ.
There's always a future withJesus Christ.
I don't know what this lookslike on a denominational
standpoint.
Honestly, I think things arereally ramping up, um, from the
people that are tired of justthe limiting, and I think that
there's going to be some goodthings coming, um, I hope, and.
(48:14):
But what I do know is thatJesus is good and he's still on
his throne and eternity lookspretty fun, uh, the more I've
studied revelation, uh, I'mpretty.
I'm pretty pumped about gettingthere.
Amen dude.
Speaker 1 (48:28):
There's this like trendy TikTok dude.
I don't know Christian dude whohas this like rant on
Tetelestai.
Have you seen that one?
Speaker 3 (48:36):
I have not.
I want to hear more though.
Speaker 1 (48:38):
Oh my gosh.
No, well, he, just that's theword, for it is finished, jesus
Tetelestai, you know.
And we've preached it on goodFriday.
But it has a judicial componentto it.
We've been justified or paid inguilt, paid in full, and it's
been placed on on Jesus.
Our guilt is fully placed onhim.
It's, it's finished.
The crushing weight of our sinis finished.
(49:00):
And then it also has a militarycomponent, kind of the Mel
Gibson Patriot or Gladiator, youknow, kind of what was the
movie where he got?
It was no.
What's the Mel Gibson moviewhere he's on his, he's getting
ripped to shreds on that.
Come on, why am I trying toblink.
Speaker 3 (49:17):
Are you talking about the Passion of the Christ?
Speaker 1 (49:20):
No, no, no, no, no.
Mel Gibson no, he's an actor,he's an actor.
No, no, mel Gibson Not.
No, he's an actor, he's anactor and he's on, he's getting
anyway.
Someone knows the movie I'mtalking about, but he has this
like loud, loud, guttural cry atthe end of his life, and that's
the loud, guttural cry fromJesus on.
It is finished and it's amilitary victory as well has
been won.
The enemy, sin, death and thedevil have been defeated, and so
(49:42):
, because of that, jesus is onthe throne, the crucified, risen
, reigning, one that we don'thave to be afraid.
We can have profound faith andconfidence.
We can disagree agreeably.
You are not the core of you isnot your idea, your opinion,
your beliefs.
Your core is a child of God.
So if you disagree withanything Zach and I said today
and you want to come on and havea loving, brotherly
(50:05):
conversation around something Igive this invitation all the
time, very, very few take me upon it.
If you actually want to talkabout the issues that are taking
place in the local church andhow the decisions that leaders
make have a trickle down effectto those of us at the grassroots
just trying to be faithful toreach people with the gospel.
If you want to honestly talkabout that in any leadership
(50:26):
position, you get a fast trackto the front of the line on a
lead time podcast, because Idon't know that many of us are
talking about that today and wewant to welcome godly dialogue
and debates.
After much discussion, you lookat the book of Acts 2, after
much discussion and great debatethis was on the Gentile
inclusion right.
(50:47):
They spent time together.
Well, and I have to believe.
What was Jesus really about?
Oh yeah, it wasn't just forIsrael, it wasn't just for the
Jews.
I think from the very beginningGod has this grand story.
So what should we do to bringthem in?
Should they do page 5 and 15 ofthe liturgy?
(51:07):
Should they do all of thesedifferent things?
No, Just let them in.
Don't eat meat sacrificed toidols though they kind of have
this, well, it's not reallyanything anyways a little bit
later on and then be sexuallypure, honor the body, the temple
of the Holy Spirit that God hasgiven you.
Outside of that, the HolySpirit's going to help us figure
it out in our respectivecontext.
Can we have that sort of aposture today in the Missouri
(51:29):
Synod, for the sake of thewonderful theology that's been
passed down to us.
I pray the answer is yes, butit's going to take more dialogue
rather than less.
So, hey, zach, close with tellpeople Red Letter.
Where can they find all of thegreat content that you guys
bring out?
Speaker 3 (51:46):
yeah, thanks, tim, for what you do.
Man, I love you as a brother,as an accountability partner.
I'm in your corner.
Um, let's create leaderstogether.
So thank you for having thehard conversations.
Uh, I do pray that it it stirs.
It stirs us, I know it'sstirring us in the right way.
Um, so keep keep going, man,and I'm in your corner.
(52:07):
If anybody wants to connect withme, yeah, I don't do much on
socials, actually personally,but our website,
redletterchallengecom, haseverything there and my contact
info and all that good stuff.
It's not hard to find on there.
So, redletterchallengecom, andif I can help any pastor or any
church leader, if you want to doa 40 day challenge or want to
(52:27):
go even deeper with creating adisciple making strategy at your
church, just email me, zachZ-A-C-H at redletterchallengecom
.
Zach at redletterchallengecom,and I would love to talk with
you and help you.
And let's create greatdisciples, because we know with
great disciples we become greatleaders and with enough great
leaders, we're gonna have agreat church body and we need
more great leaders.
So let's do this.
Speaker 1 (52:48):
Amen, hey, dude, proud of you, love you, love the
mission.
The best days are ahead of us,we have to believe this because
Jesus is on the throne.
The best days are ahead for theMissouri Synod, definitely for
the wider church, definitely forKing of Kings.
We're praying for ChristGreenfield too, and for ULC and
(53:10):
Red Letter and all the thingsthat we do to try to listen,
learn and care for the widerchurch.
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
This is Lead Time.
We'll be back next week ormaybe even later on this week
with another fresh episode Righton ZZ.
Love you, buddy, see you, dude.
Speaker 3 (53:16):
Love you too, man.
Speaker 2 (53:17):
You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the
Unite Leadership Collective.
The ULC's mission is tocollaborate with the local
church to discover, develop anddeploy leaders through biblical
Lutheran doctrine and innovativemethods To partner with us in
this gospel message.
Subscribe to our channel, thengo to theuniteleadershiporg to
(53:39):
create your free login forexclusive material and resources
and then to explore ways inwhich you can sponsor an episode
.
Thanks for listening and staytuned for next week's episode.
Lead Time listeners, tim Allman here.
We love at Lead Time bringingyou content to grow as leaders
in your ministry and beyond, butwe want to make sure that we're
hitting the mark, so can youhelp us out by filling this
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It's going to take less than aminute.
It helps us know what you likeabout the podcast.
We want to hear what topics youwant more of and even which
(00:21):
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We want to know also how likelyyou are to recommend Lead Time
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Your feedback, it really reallymatters.
Check out the link in the shownotes and let us know what you
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Thank you for helping us leadbetter together.
God bless.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
This is Lead Time.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
All right, welcome to Lead Time, tim Allman here.
Jack Calvert is on vacation.
He's at some conference.
I don't know where Jack is, buttoday I get to hang out with my
friend.
Partner in the gospelaccountability, partner now for
a number of years, partner inloving the game of golf and
leadership formation years,partner in Loving the Game of
Golf and Leadership Formation,entrepreneurial Kingdom.
All the things are wrapped upinto Pastor Zach Zender.
(01:10):
How are you doing, zach?
Speaker 3 (01:11):
I'm doing great man.
I'm on Lead Time Podcast withmy buddy, tim.
What could be better?
You know?
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Well, the joy is mine .
Man, You're a gift.
As you look at the LCMS rightnow, there aren't many guys that
do as many wild things asyou've done Now.
You sold golf head.
Maybe we'll just start here.
When you were at the seminary,you made money selling golf head
(01:40):
covers.
Zach, that's very unusual.
You ran a business while youwere going to grad school.
Tell that story quick before Iget going, because I think it
kind of seeds.
Oh, this is why the cross waslaunched.
This is why Red Letter waslaunched.
God put something in you tostart new things, to reach
people, to provide for yourself,for sure, but then to reach new
(02:01):
people with the gospel, once itgot kind of turned toward that
end.
Like, tell that, tell thatstory.
You're a unique breed, ZachZender.
I love it.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Yeah, hey, I don't know that all the people like
that I'm that unique, but hey,it's for me, honestly, what I've
always been entrepreneurial.
I learned early on with my dadand my brother.
Going to sports card shows thatit is better to be behind the
table than in front of the table, and so we did everything we
could to collect enough to getbehind the table, because you
(02:30):
can charge more behind the table, and so I've always had that
entrepreneurial spirit and forme, I started something in
college that we then wentthrough seminary and even
honestly, tim into my firstseven years of church planting
in Florida.
We sold golf head covers.
We bought them in bulk fromgolf shops, country clubs and we
sold them individually on eBay,amazon, and that for me, was my
(02:52):
number one primary income, evento go be a church planter.
That was part of the reason whywe were able to plant the
churches.
I took a halftime salary thosefirst three years even though I
was working full time right offthe bat, and so that's kind of
like I've always been reallyentrepreneurial, like if people
really understand who I am, Ilove, you know, I love ministry
and I love being a pastor.
(03:14):
I'm probably more on theleadership communication side of
being a pastor less on theshepherding every day, if I look
, if I just look at my giftingsnot that I can't do those things
or won't do those things, butalways sort of been that
entrepreneurial guy thoughunderneath it all.
And so for me it was justselling golf head covers.
That's what.
I went to seminary, I did myvicarage in St Louis as well,
(03:37):
and anytime we could sell headcovers I'd be shipping them out
every day and we'd sell 150, 200a week or so on average and it
turned into a really great thingto get us through seminary debt
free.
And what's neat now is myteenage son, who just turned 17
today as we're recording kind ofcrazy, but he has resurrected
that head cover business thelast few years and now he's
(03:59):
doing it as a high schooler andjust yeah, super proud of him.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
So shout out to Nathan Zender getting after it,
bro, I love it, yeah, superproud of him.
So, yeah, shout out to NathanZender getting after it, bro.
Yeah, I love it and happybirthday to you.
So we need more entrepreneurialleaders in our church body.
I don't, I don't know why, Idon't know.
We're an older church body.
(04:33):
It appears as if the Luther anda lot of the early reformers had
this kind of because if you'rean entrepreneur you have a
higher tolerance toward risk,relational risk, financial risk,
right.
But I don't know that we havethat kind of being cultivated,
stewarded well to identify those, because not everybody has that
kind of a new start early, notjust early adopter, but like the
innovator.
It's a very small percentage inany organization, right, I mean
, it may be 5% tops.
(04:55):
My take as I look at the widerLCMS is it's closer to 1% maybe,
and so you're even more of kindof the black sheep anomaly.
You kind of push the boundaries, it's even.
You're even more of kind of theblack sheep anomaly, you kind
of push the boundaries, that'swho, that's who you are.
So let's just, yeah, any kindof take on how the culture I
guess in our church body is kindof adverse to entrepreneurs.
(05:16):
Zach.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
Yeah.
So I mean, in some ways, everychurch plant and every RSO and
every nonprofit like, in someways, was started by an
entrepreneur or someone who hadthat spirit and so in a sense we
do have it there, but forwhatever reason, we're not
cultivating it.
Well, right now in our Lutheranchurch, missouri synod.
And I do think we have to alsolook at what's going on in
culture.
(05:38):
When you look at, like, highschool Gen Z, right now, the
number one job that they want todo is be an entrepreneur.
We're seeing that in the gigeconomy that, like there's
people that don't want thenormal jobs.
They're bouncing around there.
They're, they're becomingentrepreneurs because they want
to own their schedule, theflexibility, and so they're
working to be contractors ontheir own hours where they can
work where they want.
(05:59):
I think I saw a study that waslike, or heard one that was like
72% of high schoolers want tobe entrepreneurs.
That's a lot of people.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Now part of me is like they don't understand fully
what it's like to be anentrepreneur.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
It ain't always easy, it sounds easy and there's
definitely pros and cons andbenefits to it, but it's
challenging.
And so for me, tim, yeah, Ithink we've lost on a large
scale what it looks like to bean entrepreneur in our synod,
and I don't think we've had manythat have been a voice for
other entrepreneurs, and part ofme is saddened by that, because
I really believe in the LCMS,which I'm a fourth generation
(06:33):
LCMS pastor.
I really believe we've got thepurest of the doctrines, the
gospel, the justification bygrace through faith, and if
anybody ought to be starting newthings like crazy, it's us.
That's the, that's the fuelthat should get us to start.
We've got everything we need,we, we, we don't have anything
we don't need.
We've got Jesus Christ andeternity, the confidence that we
(06:54):
walk with, not by our works butby his, and so that in alone
like ought to be enough for usto just do bold things and take
risks that nobody else iswilling to take, and for
whatever reason, we stop withthe intellectual ascent of
justification by grace throughfaith and we don't work it out
in sanctification.
So to me, it is a sanctificationissue, it's a discipleship
(07:14):
issue and it's not something wecultivate and there aren't a lot
of leaders that are goingbefore.
And if I can be one for others,I want to be that to say like,
because I've had to kind of walkthis journey not totally alone
but I can pull in the BillWoolseys of our church and a few
others that have made impactbeyond LCMS.
But we've got what it takes andwe've got the doctrine and
(07:37):
we've got everything we need andyet there's just something that
there's a spirit that's notpresent right now in our
leadership at the top level downthat is preventing a lot of the
newness and the ideas and therisk takers and the bold people
that are ready to storm thegates of hell.
There's a breaks system to ourdenomination.
(07:58):
That's just really frustratingright now.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Yeah, that's good.
We have a propensity towardwhat Edwin Friedman who was a
Jewish rabbi, not a Christian,he's more of a sociologist in
family systems theory called thehurting mentality.
There's a stickiness to thishurting mentality that keeps
(08:25):
people from individually.
So this is all in leadership,it's always the us and the me,
the me and the we.
Right and healthy folks aredifferentiated enough to speak
for self to say I think we couldtry something here, and leaders
go first, right, and then it'sgoing to be okay, is the other
(08:46):
thing we say.
You know, and so if there werejust more leaders saying we
could do this and we want to bea voice for that here at the ULC
, right, we could try some newthings, we could test it.
It doesn't mean we're throwingthe baby out of the bag.
You're going to compromise onabsolutely everything.
Oh, by the way, Jesus is stillon the throne.
Still, word and sacrament isthe main thing.
Still, two kinds ofrighteousness, the way we
(09:07):
understand the scriptures, youknow, law, gospel, handles, like
all of these things are stillthe foundation of what we do.
And out of that foundation andit is a family systems thing out
of that foundation, I haveother people who are cheering
for me.
I have a dad, you have a dad.
I have a wider group of peoplewho say you know what it's going
to be.
Okay, we can try new things andnot compromise on theology.
(09:28):
Think about the early church.
Again, the early church is notprescriptive, it's descriptive
of what God did, but a lot ofthat description needs to.
You're going to be okay, andthen Jesus.
It seems unkind for Jesus tojust ascend, Doesn't it?
I mean, I gave you this greatmission go and make disciples of
all nations Jerusalem, Judea,Samaria you're going to be.
(09:50):
And then he just gave us thespirit, just the spirit.
Listen to us, man.
You have everything you needbecause you have the comfort of
the consoler, the leader, theone who's going to be speaking
for you.
When you don't know what you'regoing to say, what you're going
to try, it really is adenigration of the work of the
Holy Spirit and trust of theHoly Spirit.
Anything more to say there,Zach, though?
(10:10):
I think we've got all the goods.
I'm just doubling down on whatyou're saying.
We got all the goods.
Are we going to live with aspirit of fear or a spirit of
faith, trusting the Holy Spiritto be at work.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
Anything more there, Zach, oh gosh, a lot more, I
think yeah, part of it too is,by the way, we're going to mess
up at times, and our doctrine isso amazing that when we mess up
, we've got this beautiful giftof grace.
And I do love theology and Idon't want to compromise
theology, but what I will tellyou is any sort of bad theology
is also something that can becovered by the grace of God, and
(10:40):
so we cannot live with thisfear mindset.
No-transcript.
(11:06):
And before Peter says anything,jesus meets him and tells him
essentially by the way, you knowthat I don't have to pay the
tax and my kids don't have topay the tax either.
But just to appease, because wegot a bigger mission going on
right now, why don't you goahead and cast your net out
there?
Put the pole in the sea ofGalilee, where there are
thousands upon thousands of fish, and you will happen to find a
(11:29):
two denarii coin that's going totake care of both you and me,
even though we have to pay it.
I will pay it for you, I'll payyour debt and I'm going to pay
mine, even though I don't needto, just because we got bigger
fish to fry.
And what I love about this is hecorrects his bad theology, like
even there in that story withhim paying the tax, like it's
bad theology to pay the tax forand he does it anyway, just
(11:52):
because there's there's stuff tomove on.
There's bigger things.
So what I'm not advocating hereis that we have in our
denomination that this mindsetthat theology trumps everything
else.
I think is got to go JesusChrist on his throne like
(12:13):
justification by grace, throughfaith.
Let's work it out, let's trustone another, let's go for things
we're going about thosemistakes.
Let's have grace for oneanother, forgive one another and
keep moving on, rather thanadvocating that we should not
and cannot do anything new inour church body for the sake of
the purity of the doctrine.
(12:34):
I love our purity of doctrine,but let's go.
Now is the time.
So anyway, I got a lot more Icould say on it, but those are
just a few.
I'm not that passionate aboutit.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
It's great, dude, I love your passion.
And God's mission has a church.
The mission the church doesn'thave a mission.
God's mission has a church.
Like, if you miss that, all ofscripture and this is theology,
and I'd love to hear anybodychallenge that.
God's mission is to seek and tosave the lost.
(13:07):
God's mission is to get all ofhis kids back, those that were
riddled in sin, far from him.
This is why Jesus became flesh.
This is why Jesus perfectlyfulfills the law, dies our death
, rises again to give us hope inthis life and in the life to
come.
And now he's mobilizing achurch to bring his word into
the world, to be salt and lightin a dark and dying world, and
(13:28):
and to let people know thatGod's done it all and he wants
to continually remind us howmuch he loves us through the
sacraments.
Like this is not I don't thinkthis should be a debate at all
and then we're going to trustone another in our various
contexts to handle that said.
Confession for the sake of thefound, for the sake of
discipleship, for the sake ofdisciples being released to care
(13:49):
for those who are far from Godin our various vocations Like
this is like Lutheranism 101.
I don't even know why there is adebate on this.
So, yeah, I think it's more.
I think it's more sociological,I think it's more like I talked
about the hurting, the anxiety.
I think it's more like I talkedabout the hurting, the anxiety
of the world going in a certaindirection and then the church
(14:12):
kind of knee jerk reacting tothat.
We can't be like the world.
This is going to compromise.
Jesus says my kingdom is not ofthis world and so we've got to
keep all of our wonderful, ourLutheran distinctives, two kinds
of righteousness, the tworealms, the right and the left,
like we've got all of thesewonderful handles for us.
But it does require leaderstaking responsibility for self
(14:34):
and in the group of people thatthey have led, taking
responsibility for bad behavior.
People talking about peoplerather than to people, people
developing these small, becauseI think our biggest issue in the
LCMS, having talked to a lot ofpeople on both sides of the
proverbial aisle, is the hurtingtribalism that is taking place
(14:59):
and having an ever narrowerdefinition of my people.
Let me just speak into this.
Jesus was crucified because hedidn't narrow down, he expanded
out.
All of these people are mypeople he eats and hangs out
with.
Can you believe so-and-so ishanging out with Tim Allman and
Zach Zender?
(15:20):
Jesus was ridiculed for hangingout with the other the tax
collector, the sinner, those whoare far from and so we have
narrowly understood what itmeans to be a part of the church
and I think we've forgotten theway Jesus did ministry and why
he was crucified because hedidn't play the Pharisees game,
he reserved the hardest wordsinside the church, right.
(15:41):
And so where there isPhariseeism, we're trying to
have our identity be anythingother than baptized as a child
of God.
We're making our identity basedon who we hang out with, rather
than the one who hangs out withus the Father, the Son and the
Holy Spirit by grace, throughfaith.
Like this is very, verydysfunctional and needs leaders
to confess it and invite oneanother.
Hey, I have a lot to learn fromthat person.
(16:02):
I got a lot.
I'll just be specific.
Like there are brothers who arein different contexts who
deeply love the liturgy deeplylove and I deeply love the
liturgy.
Like they've learned certainthings, though that may be
helpful for me in telling thewhy behind the what of, why the
Lutheran liturgy is helpful.
(16:23):
Like that's great.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
But are we even talking to one another?
I don't know that.
We are Zach thoughts there.
Are we talking to one another?
I don train leaders that I knowwe're the most that I know of.
There's just very few paths andthere's not relevant paths for
training up leaders today thatdon't require moving and just
upheaval of our families becausewe want everybody to fit into
(17:05):
that one system.
Now, once you go through thatsystem, there's still not a
level of trust.
I've went through the systemand there's not a lot of trust
sometimes.
But what helps is when I get totalk to a Christian brother and
they talk to me and I talk tothem and we get to hear one
another's stories.
I'm a part of our circuit herein Omaha and King of Kings has
(17:30):
always kind of been known as oneof the more modern contemporary
expressions, and so once ortwice some of my brothers have
asked me questions about why wedo things the way we do things
and I'm able to share our answerand whether they agree with my
answer, whether I agree withtheir answer.
Like we still like each other,we're on the same team and
because we're talking to oneanother and I think that's one
(17:52):
of the cool things like with myred letter world, tim, is that I
do.
You know there's a lot oflike-minded people that you know
worship in the same way or thatwould share a lot of my
characteristics with how we doministry, but there's also a lot
that don't.
There's a lot of churches thatdo things different, and I think
what I love about the redletter side of things is we try
to keep things as focused and asunified on Jesus as we can,
(18:15):
because I'm hoping, I am hopingand praying that at least we can
unify on Jesus is our Saviorand Lord is about putting his
words into practice.
I'm hoping we can unify that.
This is who Jesus is and it'simportant that we put his words
into practice, and I've foundthat to be unifying, and it's
also opened up doors for me totalk with some people that I
(18:36):
probably wouldn't have talkedwith in our natural setting or
that they wouldn't have talkedwith me, and I love getting into
conversations and helpingchurches that think differently
and are different, and we'realso, by the way, way more than
just Lutheran Church MissouriSynod and I love the fact that
our justification by grace,through faith undertones is now
(18:56):
bringing a sanctification answerwith it that's now impacting
more so than just ourdenomination, and I want to tell
our denomination and ourleaders we've got really great
stuff in here that others arelistening to out there and it's
making a difference.
But we need to get it out thereand that's what we're trying to
do is get this out there and itreally can make a difference.
And so to me it boils down totrust.
(19:18):
And if we don't talk to oneanother, how can we trust one
another?
And if we're putting it allinto one system and then we
don't even trust that thatsystem raises up the people.
You know it's, it's crazy Likethere's so many people right now
that, as they're planning forthe national youth gathering
next year, that have wentthrough our system and played by
the rules and done everythingthe right way that cannot even
(19:39):
get approved by denominationalleadership right now, that now
the whole thing is way behindschedule for planning, and I
don't even know if I'm supposedto say that, but it's like crazy
.
There's just no trust in oursystem for the people that we've
made into one system andthey're saying we can't add any
other systems to it.
So I don't get how this isgoing to work out in the end.
(20:01):
Well, if we continue to do whatwe're doing, we've got to change
up something, and to me, itdoes.
That's why I love what you'redoing, tim, and you know I'm a
constant supporter of you, andUnite Leadership Collective is
you are.
You are saying we're going totrain up leaders and and we're
going to go, and cool, I'm withyou, man.
We got to train up leaders.
We need, we need disciples.
Let's do this and let's go, andGod be with us.
(20:23):
And we're going to makemistakes, by the way, as we do
it, and I'm so grateful thatwhen we make mistakes, that
we've got the grace of God andwe've got each other and a large
number of people that are withus in our corner to say we're
going to keep moving because thegospel and the kingdom of God
is bigger and above all thesethings that we're talking about
today.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
That's good man.
There is a resolution that'sbeing put forward about the
prior approval list to createmore transparency and, honestly,
greater trust hopefully, godwilling, with synodical
leadership, because there's alot that happens behind closed
doors and I think it's aboutidentity politics in our small
(21:06):
little corner of the kingdom,rather than actual substance and
content, because what theresolution basically says if you
want to send me an email,tallman at cglchurchorg what it
basically says is, hey, ifthey're not on, if they're not
approved for whatever speakingat National Youth Gathering or
for a position at one of ouruniversities, seminaries, etc.
Would you please bring chargesas to why they're not approved?
(21:29):
What, heresy sir, have theyspoken that keeps them from
being on said list?
Like, you got to bring thatstuff public.
There are some people thatbelieve and we're going to have
one of our brothers on, gregBierce, here who's been on
there's a story to be shared andit's really, really.
I'm not even going to get intoit right now.
It's very, very dysfunctional,but the heart of it is Matthew
(21:52):
18, not being followed and evenbeing justified, saying I don't
have to talk about you to you.
I can talk about you to otherpeople because you're in a
public position, like howdysfunctional is that?
And we need to bring what's inthe dark into the light, and
this is one attempt to do to dothat, and it it cause trust is,
is eroding and it's unfortunate.
(22:12):
So let's go back to red.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
Yeah, real quick, though, like I was super honored
and blessed.
That was a like a monumental,you know, moment in my life to
lead from the stage the youthgathering in 2022.
And like this is the beautiful,like I don't know that there's
anything more beautiful than thenational youth gathering that
we put on every three years.
(22:35):
And and like the sad part aboutit is because all this stuff is
just getting kicked down.
The, the, the can just keepsgetting kicked down and there's
no resolution is the people thatare going to lose out on the
end of this are the receivingend.
It's our Gen Z, it's our highschoolers, and they're going to
get a shadow version of whatcould have been, because a few
(22:58):
people at the top cannot proceedforward with this because they
don't like it for whateverreason.
And it's crazy, like the onlythings they show about the 2022
National Youth Gathering are thethings from the traditional
worship service where we'redoing the sacrament and where
our president preaches.
And why would we not want tohighlight this stuff and share
(23:19):
with the rest of the world?
This is the best of the best ofthe LCMS coming together, and
there's nothing being shown fromsome of the really amazing
things.
What's crazy is, then we'llalso then highlight, like that
we brought in a concert or ateam who's amazing for King and
Country, who are not Lutheran.
So, like I, don't get what wedo and why we highlight certain
(23:42):
things and why we limit thegospel in certain ways and at
the end of it, the people thatare paying for it are the next
generation and they may not evenknow that, but it will be
unless they get their acttogether.
And the team that works on theyouth gathering they're fabulous
, they're going to do everythingthey can to try to rise above
the ridiculous leadership at thetop and still put out an
(24:04):
amazing few days for ourchildren and our youth to have a
great experience.
I believe in them, I trust inthem, but I'm also wondering
will they even be able to do it?
Or have they been so hampered,or will they be so hampered that
this becomes a real shadow ofwhat it's been?
And I hope it doesn't, becauseto me it's one of the seminal
things.
Where you've got musicians,you've got artists, you've got
(24:26):
speakers, you've got over andover and over some of the best
of the best and like we don'tshare any of that.
We just share that we had atraditional worship service with
sacrament on Sunday and sharethat.
That's fine, but where's theother stuff?
Like we got so much good stuffgoing on in our denomination and
it's not getting shared.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Yeah, no, that's that is true.
The full story is not beingshared in a number of our
publications.
And my kids I got three highschoolers, zach.
They're already signed up.
I just actually filled out thepaperwork for them to go.
Your boys are going as well.
I like.
It was such a formative timefor me going to the national
(25:05):
youth gathering.
It was in Atlanta back in theday and then that was one of the
milestone kind of events thatsaid, wow, ministry could be for
you.
And I see all these other kidswho, in their various vocations,
are now out and I don't.
Is it going to be a shadow ofwhat it's been in the past?
That would be very, veryunfortunate.
(25:25):
And it's remarkably Lutherandude.
Anybody that says we're marriedto these forms in the LCMS.
These forms become the idolrather than what the forms point
to.
And no one can go to theNational Youth Gathering and say
you know what?
Jesus wasn't talked about there.
Jesus is obviously not thecenter.
(25:46):
No, jesus is the center pointof the entire experience.
And then kids falling more inlove by the Spirit's power, with
Scripture and creativeexpressions of the gospel.
Why is that liberal?
Why is that counter to?
It's really, really hamperingthe next generation.
Where are a lot of our let'sjust talk this our churches are
(26:08):
a little little.
There's nothing against smallchurch Like this isn't a small,
but we have a higher percentageof the larger churches have a
higher percentage of kids thatended up going and experiencing
this.
And if it's not evencommensurate with what they get
at their local level, they'relooking at like what kind of
church body is this?
This is bad.
I'm going to use a worldly term.
This is really bad marketing.
Lcms Really bad marketing notto highlight what the Lord has
(26:32):
done in the National YouthGathering.
I know this has been a burr inyour saddle for a number of
years.
For a number of you in higherlevel leadership, it's been a
burr like if we could just getrid of this.
Come on, man, in the localchurch are there sometimes
things that you're like you know, I don't know that I actually
do that that tradition let'sjust bring.
I think a lot of times when youtalk national, you just need to
bring it down local.
You know Well, like I don'tknow about that youth group, if
(26:55):
I'd actually lead it like that,like some pastors may say, but
for the sake of like thatgeneration connecting, I don't
know if I'd play all those riskygames or whatever, but for the
sake of that generationconnecting, it'd be sin for me
as a leader to get in the way ofthat Take it up to the national
level and we're making the samekind of error.
(27:15):
At this point, zach, I'll letyou land that plane.
We can go off on the.
I don't think I've everactually gone off this long.
About the National YouthGathering, let me say this you
were awesome, it was cool to beconnected.
My kids were like because mydaughter went and they're like,
you know, zach Zender, oh wow,zach's cool, zach's cool, and
they thought you were wayyounger than you actually are
right, because, anyway, it waskind of a funny event.
(27:36):
But there is something to letme land the plane here.
There is something to thelarger gathering.
Right, think about Jesus.
Let's bring it to Jesus.
Jesus fed the disciples couldhave said I don't know, there
was a few hundred, 5,000 people,not mentioning kids and their
moms.
This is a huge stadium typeevent where Jesus showed up and
(28:02):
showed off.
We can have the smaller, wehave to have the smaller, but
there's also space for theselarger like oh wow, you too, I'm
not alone, let's go on mission.
I mean, that's the vibe thatthe National Youth Gathering has
had over the years and to losethat would be a big time loss
for the LCMS.
Zach, land that plane.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
Yeah, and I would.
I would just tell you, tim,it's.
It's not on the marketing andhow we limit this is not on the
people that are in theday-to-day of planning the
gathering.
They're the greatest people andthey're ready to go and they
believe in it, they love it,they're going to give their
everything for it.
It's somewhere else, it'shappening somewhere else where
it gets limited and I just Idon't understand it.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
Yep, all right.
Hey, let's go to something youdo understand, which is Red
Letter.
Talk about the journey of RedLetter, like your favorite parts
of what the Lord's done nowmoving from the cross after 11
years.
To start this while you were atthe cross, praise God, to then
(29:03):
now it's.
There can be ups and downs, Ithink.
Just get us behind the scenes alittle bit, because you and I
talk all the time, so Idefinitely know it.
But, like I think a lot oftimes people could look at Red
Letter and, oh, zach's probablymaking all sorts of money, and
they got there's a big thing.
You know they're going beyondthe LCMS and so, but now it's,
it's an entrepreneurial ventureand it can be a little like oh
gosh, god, I have to rely on youthrough this season.
(29:24):
I'm going to put in the work,but I'm going to release it.
Release it to you.
Tell the red letter story alittle bit, Zach.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
Yeah, man, it's something that I never really
planned on.
God put this idea in me in 2011that the best way to follow
Jesus is to follow Jesus.
That discipleship isn't easy,but understanding it is, and I
think sometimes weovercomplicate discipleship and
disciple making at the start ofit, and I think the wrong first
question that a lot of peopleand church leaders are asking is
(29:56):
how do I make disciples?
And the better first questionis are you committed to
following Jesus?
Cause, like we don't need toreinvent anything, like let's
just go back and do what he said, and that was the initial idea
was I don't know how to tellthese people how to be disciples
, but I can just tell them toread Jesus's words and put them
into practice, and so that'swhat we did in 2011.
I did 40 blogs on it and justtook random commands of Jesus,
(30:18):
random red letters of Jesus witha Greek imperative and, you
know, do what he said.
So some days were more likeinternal abide in my word.
And so the challenge today ishey, read God's word for 30
minutes and share what youlearned.
Some were more external.
You know, love your neighbor asyourself, and so, physically,
literally, go do something tolove your neighbor today and
share what you did, and it was areally great experience.
In 40 days my little church planat that point, which had just
(30:40):
started what happened?
Our church, little church, grew.
Our community is always betterwhen you put the words of Jesus
into practice.
But the one that was the mostsurprising is longtime
Christians talked about howfulfilling and rewarding it was
to follow Jesus, and I knewthere was something bigger with
this, so we did it again thenext year.
I tweaked it a little bit in2012.
And then, over a five-yearprocess from there, developed
(31:03):
five targets in Red LetterChallenge.
That probably, is the one humanelement that I think is really
really, as I reverse engineer,like God, why have you anointed
this project?
Obviously, the main idea isgreat, and it's not mine, it's
Jesus's.
Do what I said.
It tells us that in the end ofthe Sermon on the Mount,
probably the human elementthat's really good is organizing
around these five targets,because I think that's where
(31:24):
people don't get to is like,what is it?
That's a really great idea tofollow Jesus, but like break it
down a little more.
And so we broke it down intofive targets that we felt like
came out of the mouth of JesusBe forgive, serve, give and go.
Be forgive, serve, give and go,and that sort of gave it some
sticky stickiness, some stayingpower.
(31:44):
That these five targets aresomething, then, that I can form
my life around, I can form mychurch around.
And is that all that Jesus saidis an exhaustive list?
No, but it's a really greatplace to start and most people
in most churches don't have thatlanguage in place or that
starting point.
And so 2018, january is when RedLetter Challenge, the official
(32:05):
40-day challenge, came out afterseven years, and it was one of
those things I was like cool God.
I feel like I was faithful tothat project.
We put some good investmentinto it and had a couple of
partners that helped us get itto where it was in the beginning
.
Some family, friends and theysacrificed to do that and
churches started picking it upand have a great experience
because with the books we had,you know everything else that
(32:26):
you'd want for a 40 day turnkeyexperience at your church.
And by the end of 19, 2019,allison and I were really left
with like a real dilemma, likethe church was growing, but it
was really complex and we hadour probably our hardest year in
2019, even before COVID, welost the lease on our space and
had to move portable and at thatpoint we were 600, 700 people a
(32:48):
weekend having to go portablein a small town and it was just
really a challenging year.
On top of that, red letter stuffwas like just exploding and
we're like God, what are wedoing?
What are you doing here?
And so, through a lot of prayer, I talked with Kerry Newhoff.
He came down to Orlando andwe'd gotten to know each other a
little bit and he saidsomething that really stuck out
(33:13):
to me that you know when you,when you put 10 times in the
energy over here and over herewas the cross and you get one
out of it Um, but then you putone times the energy over here
and here would be red letter andyou get 10 out of it Um, he's
like.
That, for me, was when I knew inhis world, the podcast was his
other answer or thing that hewas wrestling with, he's like.
And that's when I really kindof knew that God was moving me
more towards that and thatreally resonated with me.
(33:36):
Not that what I was puttinginto the cross wasn't great, it
was so fun.
I loved, loved, loved that 11year chapter and I miss it in
some ways because I'mentrepreneurial.
I loved being a part of a newthing where God was doing
something.
But we really, really felt likeGod was here.
And our job in life is not to uh, not to say I'm going to go
(33:57):
here and God you show up, it'sjust to say God, where are you?
And that's where we really feltlike he was and and those that
heard the first few minutes knowthat it kind of fit my
entrepreneurial spirit anywayand my wife.
Her passion is writing and itallowed her an outlet to do what
she does and what she loves,because she writes all of our
kids material and so much morefor us and she even helps me in
(34:19):
my writing, which I probablyneed.
And so it just really allowedus an opportunity to impact the
Capital C Church, which is amuch different call than the
local C Church, but the local CChurch is still really important
to me and I'm a fourthgeneration pastor and so I'm
still a teaching pastor at Kingof Kings and also heavily
involved in the multi-site partof what we do at King of Kings
(34:39):
and so still here at officethree times a week, three days a
week, I should say.
So I care about the localchurch, but also it's given me
an opportunity to impact theCapital C Church too.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
Hey, man, grateful that you listened to the Lord's
call and I know that was a tough.
You and I were talking through,praying, through all of those
things, and the Lord has blessed.
It's kind of got to be a uniqueexperience.
To birth I got a little bit ofan experience having launched
the table and then, five yearslater, this was a meal and
(35:12):
worship inclusive of, but notexclusively, for the working,
poor and homeless in Denver.
And leaving that and cominghere 12 years ago, man, there
was some like heavy grief, guiltand then release, guilt and
then release, and I bet you'vekind of gone through through all
of those kinds of cycles ofsaying, hey, it wasn't mine to
(35:32):
begin with, this is, this isyour thing, and I think that's
the way we kind of have toapproach anything
entrepreneurial.
Right, I mean, it's not youLike red letter isn't even, it's
the Lord's thing, and so,whatever he wants to, there's
some freedom that comes out ofthat.
Zach isn't there Talking tokind of the freedom of release
to the Lord.
Speaker 3 (35:51):
Yeah for sure.
And I think what it allows meto see, Tim, is that we're
called to continually try toinvent and new things and risk
for where we know God is already.
And so when we think about itfrom the LCMS standpoint,
especially from a training up ofleaders and I'm more in the
discipleship than the leadershipspace, but they're so
(36:12):
intertwined right To me not allleaders are disciples, but every
disciple is a leader, and so weneed both discipleship and
leadership, and so I'm more onthe discipleship day-to-day
stuff than the leadership stuff.
But I do think that, at the endof the day, the LCMS and the
future of our LCMS really doesdepend on are we training up
(36:32):
leaders?
Now, I would hope that theseleaders are disciples.
So I would want to comeunderneath the leaders and
really put and pour a lot morediscipleship stuff into them
than we currently do so thatthey're a more effective leader.
But are we training up leaders?
And so what I think this allowsus to do is we know that Jesus
is for the church, he institutedit, and the gates of hell will
(36:53):
not prevail against capital Cthe church.
So we know he's for that.
So what that allows us to do is, underneath that we can try new
things and we can risk newthings, that we can try new
things and we can risk newthings.
And then guess what?
If the Lord blesses it andanoints it, we can continue to
walk in that path.
(37:13):
And if the Lord doesn't blessit and anoint it and there's no
momentum and movement there, wecan say we tried and we can try
something else again.
It allows us a spirit to tryand risk and innovate and then,
when you see God show up, youstep more fully into it.
I think, from a personal level,from a professional level and
from a corporate level, theseare the things that we're called
(37:35):
to do.
Is God, where are you?
Where have you already promisedto be, and how can I put myself
there to use my gifts to thepower of the Holy Spirit to be
where you already are?
And provided you do somethingcool, let's step even more into
it.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
Amen, amen.
Hey, let's talk about risk inlike the early church, because I
think you live, we've seen theradical shift in our culture,
you know, and Christians areobviously not in the majority.
We're an increasing minoritykind of kingdom people, those
that are people of the book,those that are people of the way
(38:12):
of Jesus, and so I thinkembracing some of the struggles
of the early church are helpfulfor us, like think about the
societal and cultural andtheological risk of elevating
Gentiles to equal status withJews, I think, because that is,
I mean, Book of Galatians, likethe second half of the Book of
(38:34):
Acts.
It's like trying to figure outwhat do we do with these people
who are the outsiders who havebeen brought near.
That was a risky propositionthen, for Peter, right, I mean
Acts chapter, and Peter had hiskind of waffling moments.
You know Acts 10 moment, whenwhy should you call anything
that God has created clean,unclean?
Like let them in and then Ilove it.
(38:57):
The end of Acts 10, it's theGentile conversion.
Can anyone withhold water fromthese guys?
And it's kind of like a Bueller.
You know Bueller, is anybodygoing to speak?
Okay, baptize them, bring themin, like that was societally and
theologically risky.
Anything more to say to thatZach?
Yeah, just that yeah, so much.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
Acts 10 is such a great, great chapter where you
have God working throughCornelius, this amazing Gentile
that somehow was God fearing,even though you know his culture
and everything else was maybepressing against it.
So God is working on him.
And then, all of a sudden,peter goes up to the roof to
pray at noon, which, by the way,is not a normal time.
(39:39):
I think we should give it upfor Peter.
We talk about all the badthings he does, but like he's
praying at a time he didn't haveto, and but he has to pray
because, like, think about beinga part of that early church and
how confusing and hard it wasand how his brothers are getting
martyred for the faith.
And now this guy that waspersecuting is now a part of the
church somehow and I need towelcome him.
I probably need to work out myown inner feelings about how I
(40:01):
feel about Saul, paul, and likethere's so much going on.
And then and then in Acts nine Ithink it's Acts nine right
before that chapter like Peter's, peter's healing, healing
people, like by the things thatJesus was, like he's touching
hems of God, like they'retouching him and like he's.
How prideful I would be, youwould be, we would be tempted to
be like.
So I love the fact that Peterprays at noon and that he's
(40:24):
hungry and he dreams about meat.
I think that's really anybodythat's ever dreamt about meat, I
think loves that chapter.
But here's what I love aboutthis one the entrepreneurial,
the risk side comes in, what Godwas doing in that story, and
again he has to tell Peter threetimes, because things come in
threes for Peter.
What God is telling Peter inthat story is stuff, meat, meat
that was previously off the menuis now on the menu.
(40:46):
There's a new way to do thingsnow and and and I need you to be
the spokesperson for that andPeter's still not sure what to
do about that, but in God'ssovereignty he's already
prepared Cornelius to come andto meet with Peter to share like
.
Here's the interpretation ofthat.
I love that God is working ontwo different people in two
different places on one mission,and I think technologically we
(41:09):
can do that so much more todaythan we've ever been able to.
But the fact that the churchwas doing great things, mighty
and powerful things, and yet inActs 10 needed to be corrected
and needed a bigger mission andneeded to be told by God.
What was once off-menu is nowon-menu, and so, as we look,
this especially for me, tim isreally important with the
(41:30):
technological world we live inwe're doing a podcast that right
now we would not have been ableto do 25 years ago.
There's this thing called theinternet that this will land on,
and this was not on the menu 25years ago.
It is on the menu now, and whatalso was not on the menu 25
years ago, it is on the menu now.
And what also was not on themenu 25 years ago was to train
anybody online to become aleader of our church.
(41:52):
But what is on the menu now isyou can do super good, effective
training online in localized,regionalized contexts and people
almost every denominationthat's worth their salt has
figured out how to do that, andwe have not.
And so what I want to say iswhat the Lord told Peter in Acts
, chapter 10, what was off menuis now on menu, which means we
(42:14):
got to change the way we dothings, and so that to me is
like entrepreneurial, it's risky, it's a course correction for
the greater capital city church,because times have changed.
And so what does that look likefor us today?
It means we can do thingsdifferently.
We can train online.
We can have even videoteachings in other campuses,
because if we're not training upthe pastors, we've got to get a
(42:36):
message that is grace-basedLutheran from an ordained pastor
into those places.
If we're going to be in thislimited structure, we've got to
figure out how we're going to dothat, and there's not enough
people to go around.
And so cool, now you can listento a message from anybody, from
any Lutheran church if they havethe technological advances to
do that, and also take a littlebit of the pressure off of the
(42:57):
pastor who is pastoring a churchdoing it by himself.
That's probably overtapped,because there's not leaders in
his context being being trainedup.
So you can actually be an ally,I can be an ally.
We can be an ally for oneanother and provide training
that is different today than itwas 25 years ago.
It's through a video screen.
Now I'm not saying it's themost effective and that's the
only way to do things, but it'sa way it's effective, it's
(43:20):
working in other places and so,anyway, you got me going and I
just happened to be doing astudy on Acts 10 not that long
ago, and so I'm ready to rockwith that one.
Speaker 1 (43:30):
So off menu, on menu.
Dude, that's a.
That's a legit rhetorical hookright there.
The Holy Spirit is expandingour menu options today.
Now I don't know if we win theLCMS.
We're definitely not like theCheesecake Factory.
Like Cheesecake Factory, thatmenu is ginormous.
Like I don't think we need allthat, but we need to be
(43:52):
somewhere.
Okay, from fast food I'm justgoing with the metaphor From
fast food to Cheesecake Factory.
There are these like walk-upstations where it's a little bit
faster, but they're still kindof like.
The LCMS just seems to move inthat direction.
Please, please.
So anyway, it's so good.
Zach, I've said so much on thattopic.
Thanks for doubling down on it.
(44:13):
We have a leadershipdevelopment shortage and
opportunity today and we need totell more stories.
Let's close with hope.
I mean, we've talked a lotabout some opportunities for
growth in the LCMS.
Today let's talk about thestories of hope.
We need to tell those more.
What makes you, as you look atthe broader landscape of the
LCMS, what gives you hope andjoy?
Zach?
Speaker 3 (44:32):
Jesus is still on his throne and he's working through
people and no matter what we dothat's been my message this
election season no matter whatwe do or no matter who gets
elected, jesus ain't getting offthe throne again.
He got off for 34 time, stampedyears to redeem us and rescue
(44:53):
us.
But he very firmly and squarelyat least from a metaphorical,
figurative standpoint that theLord invites us into this
imagery to think about and todwell on he took back his seat
on the throne in Revelation 4and 5 and Hebrews 9 and 10.
He paid with his own blood andretook his seat, and the more we
tether to that Jesus, who isseated on the throne and
(45:16):
sovereign and in control, themore, from a personal and a
church corporate level, we'regoing to be okay.
I think that's what I love aboutbeing a part of red letter.
I've been able to travel alittle bit more the last few
weeks.
There's a couple of seasons ofthe year where I travel a good
bit and then there's manyseasons where I don't.
I've been in one of those, andso it's nice to get to meet and
see people that your work youknow.
(45:38):
You don't know like is yourwork impacting, you know
people's lives or not, and andso in the last three weeks, tim,
I've gotten to hear these,these things individually and
corporately.
Um, I got to hear, uh, a familyfrom a family.
I was at a conference and theythey said, hey, through red
letter challenge, one of thechallenges was to tithe for six
(45:58):
months, and me and my husbanddid that, and you're the reason
why.
And now, of course, it was Godthrough the Holy spirit, through
me, through my words, andyou're the reason why.
And now, of course, it was God,through the Holy Spirit,
(46:18):
through me, through my words,through the page, that did that.
But and they've never stoppedsince then, and and and they've
talked about the joy that theyhave in generosity.
Jesus is generous.
And now said he talked with aman that for 70 years has kept a
secret inside of an infidelityand that the people you know
that are in his life that wouldhave cared, have all passed on.
And he said I've never told asoul and I'm telling you, pastor
, um, about this sin and I needyour forgiveness.
And the pastor, like in himwere in tears and the pastor,
(46:40):
like, obviously forgave him.
And then the guy said if youneed to tell this story to
anybody else so that they can,too, have freedom, share the
story.
And so, like, the grace ofJesus is so big and it covers
enough of us, and so those arelike personal stories I love
hearing on the church side wehad a actually a huge mega
church, like 6,000 people,multiple campuses in Georgia
(47:04):
that just went through RedLetter Challenge and at the end
of it they said we had hundredsof people that through this
challenge, like recommitted topracticing the words of Jesus,
and I say none of that likeabout my challenge, but what we
try to do in the challenges iscenter back on this Jesus guy.
That is pretty amazing, that weall love, that is a friend, that
(47:29):
is a brother, but right now isthe King of Kings seated on his
throne, sovereign and in control.
And so what brings me hope isnothing I do or nothing you do
will take God off of his throne.
Nothing anybody else does orleadership does that I disagree
with will take God off of histhrone.
Nothing anybody else does orleadership does that I disagree
with will take God off of histhrone.
He's still there and his graceis still for me and for others,
(47:51):
and the more people get in touchwith that person, the person of
Jesus Christ.
There's always a future withJesus Christ.
I don't know what this lookslike on a denominational
standpoint.
Honestly, I think things arereally ramping up, um, from the
people that are tired of justthe limiting, and I think that
there's going to be some goodthings coming, um, I hope, and.
(48:14):
But what I do know is thatJesus is good and he's still on
his throne and eternity lookspretty fun, uh, the more I've
studied revelation, uh, I'mpretty.
I'm pretty pumped about gettingthere.
Amen dude.
Speaker 1 (48:28):
There's this like trendy TikTok dude.
I don't know Christian dude whohas this like rant on
Tetelestai.
Have you seen that one?
Speaker 3 (48:36):
I have not.
I want to hear more though.
Speaker 1 (48:38):
Oh my gosh.
No, well, he, just that's theword, for it is finished, jesus
Tetelestai, you know.
And we've preached it on goodFriday.
But it has a judicial componentto it.
We've been justified or paid inguilt, paid in full, and it's
been placed on on Jesus.
Our guilt is fully placed onhim.
It's, it's finished.
The crushing weight of our sinis finished.
(49:00):
And then it also has a militarycomponent, kind of the Mel
Gibson Patriot or Gladiator, youknow, kind of what was the
movie where he got?
It was no.
What's the Mel Gibson moviewhere he's on his, he's getting
ripped to shreds on that.
Come on, why am I trying toblink.
Speaker 3 (49:17):
Are you talking about the Passion of the Christ?
Speaker 1 (49:20):
No, no, no, no, no.
Mel Gibson no, he's an actor,he's an actor.
No, no, mel Gibson Not.
No, he's an actor, he's anactor and he's on, he's getting
anyway.
Someone knows the movie I'mtalking about, but he has this
like loud, loud, guttural cry atthe end of his life, and that's
the loud, guttural cry fromJesus on.
It is finished and it's amilitary victory as well has
been won.
The enemy, sin, death and thedevil have been defeated, and so
(49:42):
, because of that, jesus is onthe throne, the crucified, risen
, reigning, one that we don'thave to be afraid.
We can have profound faith andconfidence.
We can disagree agreeably.
You are not the core of you isnot your idea, your opinion,
your beliefs.
Your core is a child of God.
So if you disagree withanything Zach and I said today
and you want to come on and havea loving, brotherly
(50:05):
conversation around something Igive this invitation all the
time, very, very few take me upon it.
If you actually want to talkabout the issues that are taking
place in the local church andhow the decisions that leaders
make have a trickle down effectto those of us at the grassroots
just trying to be faithful toreach people with the gospel.
If you want to honestly talkabout that in any leadership
(50:26):
position, you get a fast trackto the front of the line on a
lead time podcast, because Idon't know that many of us are
talking about that today and wewant to welcome godly dialogue
and debates.
After much discussion, you lookat the book of Acts 2, after
much discussion and great debatethis was on the Gentile
inclusion right.
(50:47):
They spent time together.
Well, and I have to believe.
What was Jesus really about?
Oh yeah, it wasn't just forIsrael, it wasn't just for the
Jews.
I think from the very beginningGod has this grand story.
So what should we do to bringthem in?
Should they do page 5 and 15 ofthe liturgy?
(51:07):
Should they do all of thesedifferent things?
No, Just let them in.
Don't eat meat sacrificed toidols though they kind of have
this, well, it's not reallyanything anyways a little bit
later on and then be sexuallypure, honor the body, the temple
of the Holy Spirit that God hasgiven you.
Outside of that, the HolySpirit's going to help us figure
it out in our respectivecontext.
Can we have that sort of aposture today in the Missouri
(51:29):
Synod, for the sake of thewonderful theology that's been
passed down to us.
I pray the answer is yes, butit's going to take more dialogue
rather than less.
So, hey, zach, close with tellpeople Red Letter.
Where can they find all of thegreat content that you guys
bring out?
Speaker 3 (51:46):
yeah, thanks, tim, for what you do.
Man, I love you as a brother,as an accountability partner.
I'm in your corner.
Um, let's create leaderstogether.
So thank you for having thehard conversations.
Uh, I do pray that it it stirs.
It stirs us, I know it'sstirring us in the right way.
Um, so keep keep going, man,and I'm in your corner.
(52:07):
If anybody wants to connect withme, yeah, I don't do much on
socials, actually personally,but our website,
redletterchallengecom, haseverything there and my contact
info and all that good stuff.
It's not hard to find on there.
So, redletterchallengecom, andif I can help any pastor or any
church leader, if you want to doa 40 day challenge or want to
(52:27):
go even deeper with creating adisciple making strategy at your
church, just email me, zachZ-A-C-H at redletterchallengecom
.
Zach at redletterchallengecom,and I would love to talk with
you and help you.
And let's create greatdisciples, because we know with
great disciples we become greatleaders and with enough great
leaders, we're gonna have agreat church body and we need
more great leaders.
So let's do this.
Speaker 1 (52:48):
Amen, hey, dude, proud of you, love you, love the
mission.
The best days are ahead of us,we have to believe this because
Jesus is on the throne.
The best days are ahead for theMissouri Synod, definitely for
the wider church, definitely forKing of Kings.
We're praying for ChristGreenfield too, and for ULC and
(53:10):
Red Letter and all the thingsthat we do to try to listen,
learn and care for the widerchurch.
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
This is Lead Time.
We'll be back next week ormaybe even later on this week
with another fresh episode Righton ZZ.
Love you, buddy, see you, dude.
Speaker 3 (53:16):
Love you too, man.
Speaker 2 (53:17):
You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the
Unite Leadership Collective.
The ULC's mission is tocollaborate with the local
church to discover, develop anddeploy leaders through biblical
Lutheran doctrine and innovativemethods To partner with us in
this gospel message.
Subscribe to our channel, thengo to theuniteleadershiporg to
(53:39):
create your free login forexclusive material and resources
and then to explore ways inwhich you can sponsor an episode
.
Thanks for listening and staytuned for next week's episode.
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