Bridging LCMS Theology: Intellectual Tradition Meets Digital Mission

Tim sits down with Brian Stecker, associate pastor at Trinity Lutheran Church in Waconia, Minnesota, and creator of the "On the Line" podcast, to explore theological leadership in today's changing religious landscape. They discuss how traditional Lutheran theology can engage with contemporary culture while maintaining its rich intellectual tradition.

• CS Lewis's powerful influence as a bridge between classical education and modern thinking
• The importance of story in cultivating Christian imagination and faith formation
• Brian's unexpected journey from business to pastoral ministry through Tolkien's stories
• On-the-job pastoral learning and the value of theological "soft skills" in difficult situations
• Understanding the pastor's role as a leader within proper theological frameworks
• The LCMS's significant opportunity to expand its digital media presence
• How intellectually substantive content is attracting audiences contrary to conventional wisdom
• The "unfair advantage" of traditional theology as younger generations seek deeper roots
• Building unity within the LCMS while engaging diverse perspectives

Connect with Brian's work at ontheline.net or visit Trinity Waconia's website to learn more about their ministry.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is Lead Time.

Speaker 2 (00:03):
Welcome to Lead Time.
Jack is off today as I get theprivilege of hanging out with a
brother who reached out to me.
Gosh a little over a year agosaid, hey, I got a newer podcast
and we're looking to startconversations with people who
have diverse opinions across theLCMS with a desire for us to
unite.
And I was like, wow, that kindof sounds similar to some of the

(00:26):
intentions that we've had onLead Time and my own formerly
American Reformation, now my ownpodcast wanting to learn with
people inside and outside of theLCMS to unite in mission to
make Jesus known.
So he's Brian Stecker.
Brian, how are you doing, bro?

Speaker 3 (00:39):
It's good to sit down with you.

Speaker 2 (00:48):
I mean, it was nice to do it in person when you were
here, but this is great too.
Great technology, yeah, thankyou.
He is the hosting creator of Onthe Line If you've not checked
it out, you definitely shouldthe hospitality, the intention,
the desire to sit down face toface, because, while technology
is great, I love that you havethat approach and I love that
your congregation is supportingthat as well.
He is also one of the if you'veheard of LIT not I-L-T, no LIT
Lutheran Institute of Theology.

(01:09):
He's working with a number oftheologians and pastors to
provide a gift to the widerchurch, not a pathway toward
ordination, it is just trainingfor lay leaders and I think it's
a wonderful pursuit.
We need more of this in theLCMS.
He's an associate pastor atTrinity Lutheran Church in
Waconia, minnesota.
He studied business at BallState and earned an MDiv from

(01:32):
Concordia Theological Seminaryin Fort Wayne.
He's living in Minnesota withhis wife, raylene, and their
three children soon to be fourthchild all of them under five,
five years and under and he iscommitted to equipping the
church with engaging, highcaliber theological content.
So, brian man, what a joy to bewith you.
This is going to be a lot offun.
You mentioned and we didn't getto go into it when I had the

(01:55):
longer conversation than this isgoing to be.
This will be around an hour orso.
I love that you have long form.
You're like Joe Rogan style manReally really long.
It's great and it allows for alot of conversation, a lot of
different directions for peopleto get to know one another
better, and I love it.
So we didn't get to talk aboutCS Lewis.
That's where I wanted to starttoday.
Tell me what you love mostabout CS Lewis and how he's kind

(02:17):
of shaped your theological mindbrother.
Yeah, so you know there'sprobably two routes.

Speaker 3 (02:21):
So you know, anyone that knows me knows he's
probably one of the mostinfluential teachers, and that's
not to take away, of course,from the confessional training
book of Concord.
You know Bible, but you knowkind of extracurricular
individuals that have had animpact and two things I'd
probably say about him.
I think there's been asubjective kind of impact that I
can speak to and then anobjective, and the subjective
one for me was I did grow upreading Chronicles of Narnia, so

(02:44):
some of those kind ofimaginative stories I think
formed some of my imagination,which was helpful.
But during college, as mostpeople do, you kind of go
through those kind ofchallenging times where you're
questioning things and it kindof, you know, trying to grit
your teeth on being an adult,and that can be kind of returned
to or read for the first timethe Great Divorce at like, a

(03:05):
particular time where I had somequestions, kind of struggling
through some things, read it inone night and it was just an
overwhelming experience and itanswered questions, it opened my
eyes to things.
I think it kind ofreinvigorated some of that
imagination that I had and fromthere that was kind of towards
the middle of college, butthat's kind of what I think
started to get me interested intheology in a deeper way.

(03:26):
So I started to go through hisworks and the one thing that
I've noticed is so I've readthrough most of his works, many
of them I've reread butsomething happens when you spend
a lot of time with one author,and that is you start to learn
not only what they've said butyou kind of learn how they think
and how they process things.
And Lewis is a very he's, veryhe's very much trained in logic.

(03:47):
So when he goes to thesequestions he articulates them
very well.
So I got to the point where Icould say what Lewis said on
something, but I could also makea pretty accurate guess of what
he would say about something hedidn't say, because I knew how
he thought, I knew his framework, I knew the way he articulated
things.
So, subjectively speaking,that's, he formed the way that.
I think he formed my imaginationand I do think that's one value
of studying one person in depthis, you know, if you just read

(04:09):
one book or if you just read anarticle or something, you can
take it out of context and youcan miss what he's trying to say
.
But if you read a lot of oneauthor, you can kind of get the,
you can get an understanding oftheir mind and then you can
place their points into thatgrander scheme and I think that
very much kind of forms you andgives you an accurate look of
what this individual is thinkingthrough and what kind of lens
they're understanding thingsthrough.

(04:29):
Yeah, amen.

Speaker 2 (04:30):
I mean, anybody that's read Luther would say the
exact same thing with greatdepth, as you've also read a lot
of Luther.
Like if we, just for case inpoint, if we just read on Luther
and the lies of the Jews or onthe Jews and their lies there we
go Like that would be a verypoor right and some people do,
right, they just know this kindof cursory understanding of who

(04:52):
Luther is.
But why for that point?
Why did he say that?
It's because he had a strongdesire, along with the Apostle
Paul, for the chosen people ofGod to come into a right
relationship through thepromised Messiah, jesus.
So go back to Lewis.
What about the great divorce?
Captured initially yourimagination and then use that as
a springboard to help us thinkcritically about things that

(05:14):
maybe CS Lewis didn't say.
So two part question, but youthink he'd speak into.
And how would he speak into2025, as we're going on mission
to make Jesus known today, brian.
So go to the Great Divorce.

Speaker 3 (05:25):
Yeah, so the Great Divorce is Lewis is he's kind of
taking his own version and he'snot really duplicating, but
he's taking the same approachthat Dante took in his trilogy,
right.
So there's kind of this pilgrimaspect and he's answering the
grander question of what isheaven and hell, and you know.
So one of his theses is, youknow he'll say, hell is the
greatest monument to humanfreedom, right, and he'll also

(05:46):
make the point that hell islocked from the inside.
Point, being those who are onhell choose it, right.
So that's kind of the grandoverarching theme.
But then he does it through allof these different
conversations that Lewis ishaving in a dream or a vision or
you know, kind of whatever itis.
But what happens is he interactswith all of these different
people who choose not to go onto heaven but to return back to

(06:06):
hell, and so it's a veryreflective process, so like one
that would be very applicable tosomeone like you or myself.
Is there's an individual who'san apologist for Christianity,
so he's all about like debating,and so Lewis is very much in
this one, reflecting on himselfbecause he is in that role.
But this guy is so interestedin kind of debating the
resurrection or debating thevalidity of historical things,

(06:27):
that he actually becomesuninterested in just kind of the
beatific vision or actuallyunderstanding God or faith.
So he actually refuses to goback.
He wants to go back into hellbecause he wants to go back to
these like conversations anddebates and such.
So it goes through a lot ofdifferent areas where it just
kind of it makes youintrospectively reflect on your
own conversations, that you haveyour own goals, what your life
is geared towards, and it kindof breaks down those barriers.

(06:48):
That's one of the beauties ofthe Great Divorce, which is, you
know, kind of allegory.
You know it's certainly fictionto where some of his works are
nonfiction.
So that's certainly onesnapshot, another one, if you
kind of want to bring it intotoday, maybe I would say two
things.
This is something.
So this is kind of get intothat objective realm of why I
would endorse reading Lewis.
So him and you could throwChesterton and Tolkien into this

(07:08):
group too, and there's a coupleothers but you know George
McDonald and such, but they'rekind of on the last cusp of
those that were part of like atrue classical education.
So educational reform washappening during Lewis's time
and that's why he writes, likethe Abolition of man, which is a
very prophetic book about themovement of education in the
West.
And so he doesn't.
He's not an inheritor of thatchange, he's still an inheritor

(07:31):
of the way that education wasdone, which means he knows how
to read Latin, he reads all thegreat books, he knows Aquinas,
he knows Augustine, he knowsLuther.
You know you go through the,you know Dante, all of this.
So for you or I, like I haven'tbeen trained classically,
really I think I got a littlebit at seminary, but you know
some of those books.
I can go back and read them,but they're tougher for me to
grasp a hold of.

(07:52):
For one, they're translatedinto English, which adds a level
of difficulty.
Two, they're written in someways that we're just not trained
to read.
But Lewis is an English speakerwho who has one foot in
modernism, so he kind ofunderstands our world still
today.
He's not too far back inhistory, but he also has one
foot in the classical realm.
So he's one of the great kindof entry points of understanding
the wisdom of, you know, theprevious 1800 years.

(08:14):
He's got access to that andhe's able to articulate it into
our modern context.
So that's why I think he's verykind of prophetic in that way.
And so what kind of things doeshe speak to?
Well, he understands the firstmovements of modernism.
So, for instance, like, wheredo ideas come from?
You know if you go to, if I goto the Mall of America, you know
it's about 30 minutes from hereand I walk around.
Everybody, all the kids in theMall of America are Marxists,

(08:36):
right, or they're Nietzsche, andit doesn't mean, like they
might say, I'm not a Marxist,but those, those ideologies have
seeped into our culture.
That doesn't happen in like 20years.
That happens, you know, ittakes a hundred, 150 years.
So Lewis was seeing the firstmovements in the academic system
, cause that's where, that'swhere these things start, and
then they move into the studentsand then the students grow up
and become influencers and theyeducate the next generation.

(08:57):
So eventually, eventually, itjust gets seeped in.
So Lewis Lewis was, he had hisfinger on the pulse of what
we're dealing with today becausehe was seeing the first
movements of it.
But I think he was able towrestle with it in a clear way
because the air hadn't quite yetbeen polluted with these ideas.
So yeah, that's kind of myendorsement for Lewis and that's
one of the reasons that Iappreciate still reading him.

Speaker 2 (09:15):
Yeah, so good.
What are your thoughtsregarding Luther and the or, I'm
sorry, I said Luther CS Lewisand the power of story?
There's a number ofphilosophers today who are
saying the enlightenment vision.
We've completely walked pastthe enlightenment vision that
science and humans can figurethings out right and that

(09:38):
there's a groundingmeta-narrative that every human
should be, is attuned to.
But again, hell is locked fromthe end.
But we don't.
We'd rather not be connected asa creature in God's creation.
The power of story becauseTolkien and CS Lewis I mean
that's what really made him puthim on the map was the

(09:58):
Chronicles of Narnia right andgrounding people as an
evangelical tool Wasn'tapologetics, it was story.
Say more about where we findourselves today and the power of
story, brian.

Speaker 3 (10:09):
Yeah, I might reference Tolkien here.
You know, in some of thequestions we talked about
beforehand, you know, I thinkit'll apply well to you know,
kind of what made a pastor.
So he certainly has appliedhere.
So one of the challenges Ithink, like the church has today
or that we have, chestertonputs it this way.
So Chesterton says that themodern man needs to become a
pagan before he can become aChristian, right, so once again,
like, if you don't understandChesterton, you know you'd hear

(10:30):
a statement like that and you'relike that's crazy.
Why would we want, you know?
But what's his point?
His point is, if you look at,like the pagan culture John D
also, they were built on stories, right, just think, just think
like oral culture, right,Stories are big.
So what happens is it formsyour imagination, stories do,
and it creates kind of thesenarratives.
And you know so, if you go toAfrica, like missionaries in

(10:52):
Africa will speak this way,where they'll say they have
these stories of good and eviland battle in the spiritual
realm.
So when the Christian messagecomes in there it affirms some
of these things.
It's like, yeah, like there isa spiritual realm, there is this
battle between good and evil,and you know here's where
victory comes from, so you canfit into that narrative.
That's already there, thegospel message.
So Chesterton saying the modernman who has lost all imagination

(11:13):
lost these kind of proper.
I mean everyone's got a storybut lost these kind of deep meta
narratives and we've had a verysimplistic, only scientific
method type, thinking that justnaturally.
I mean like once again, if yougo to the Mall of America some
people might say there's a God,but for the most part we operate
as if there isn't a God, likewe're kind of practical atheists
in the way that we live orthink.
So our stories are just kind ofthey're down below the clouds,

(11:36):
just kind of down here.
So when Christianity speaks tothat it's got a two-pronged
issue, like one.
It wants to articulate thattruth, but it also needs to
break through the clouds andkind of open up the imagination
to understand the reality of thedivine, the spiritual realm,
like these archetypes that areflowing through.
Story is a necessity to start totrain children in this kind of

(11:57):
imaginative process.
So Lewis's Chronicles of Narniadoes this very well, I think
Tolkien's trilogy and you can goto Hobbit and such too.
But Tolkien's works might bethe best at this because they
are richly, you know, mythic innature.
So they create some of thesenarratives, and I could
certainly speak more to that.
But that's that's why I thinkstory is so important, because
you have to open up theimagination, because if not it

(12:19):
just becomes like doctrine, anddoctrine is of completely
essential, but doctrine issupposed to also move us towards
.
You know, it's like I can reada great systematic book and
that's necessary, but it'ssupposed to kind of move you
then into once again that faiththat's vibrant and believes and
sees these kind of grandiosethings that God articulates to
us.

Speaker 2 (12:37):
That's centered in a God who created and his
rebellious creation fell, and heloved that rebellious creation
enough to send his son.
And now, through faith in hisson, given by the sent Holy
Spirit, we are sent in missionto make the triune God known.
We've been grounded to thegreatest story of all time God's
love for his fallen andrebellious creation.

(12:58):
Praise be to God.
So you mentioned Tolkien.
I've heard the story thatTolkien looked at CS Lewis's
Chronicles of Narnia and said,oh, that's kind of cute, you
know, like a lion and all thiskind of stuff.
Like, let me tell you anotherstory Like this is a deeper
grounded story.
Is there some validity toTolkien and Lewis kind of giving
each other a little bit ofsomething?

(13:18):
You know?
Were they competitive at all?
It seems like they were reallygood friends, know, who just
like to banter and loving,lovingly challenge one another.
Is that a true story, brian?

Speaker 3 (13:28):
from what I understand it is and I think, I
think it probably gets, I thinkit probably gets exaggerated.

Speaker 2 (13:33):
Yeah, probably yeah obviously they were.

Speaker 3 (13:34):
They were best friends.
They were brits.
Brits have that kind of humor,right.
So I'm sure they were.
I'm sure they were poking ateach other, or maybe tolkien
more so at lewis.
That said that they are doingtwo different things.
Like Tolkien is verystraightforward I'm like I'm not
writing allegory and Lewis islike Aslan, jesus, right there.
If you go to Lord of the Ringsit's like, well, like Frodo is a
type, gandalf is a type andAragorn's a type, so right, so

(13:56):
it's not so straightforward.
He's trying to like, pull outelements of like what's the king
of Kings?
What's kind of this, thisdivine wisdom coming down in
gandalf?
And then, of course, like theservant that suffers.
You know, the suffering servantis kind of frodo, so he's much
more nuanced.
They're different audiences,right, my?
I'm reading the chronicles ofnarnia with our three and
five-year-old, or at least theline the witch in the wardrobe
seems accessible to them.

(14:17):
I can't open up the fellowshipof the ring and go through 60
pages of like concerning hobbitswith with my kids.
So they're geared towardsdifferent audiences.

Speaker 2 (14:25):
Yeah, that's good.
All right, let's get into yourstory a little bit.
How did you know you wanted tobe a Lutheran pastor?
Who, or what, most influencedyou?
Tell that story, brian.

Speaker 3 (14:33):
Yeah, it's one of the questions you get asked, I
think, the most, and I don'thave a good answer.
I don't have a great answer forit.
I's just kind of one of thethings that happened.
It wasn't a long draw, I mean.
So I didn't grow up wanting tobe a pastor, you know.
One data point is my father wasa pastor.
I graduated college withbusiness and psychology.
I went and worked inIndianapolis and it took a

(14:54):
little while, probably, you know, probably halfway into that,
like maybe six months into that,the idea maybe started to creep
in and probably by 10 months Iwas enrolled in seminary.
So it happened very quickly forme Now.
So that's kind of the simpleanswer is you know God works and
you know sometimes things justkind of happen.
But when I reflect back and thisis where Tolkien kind of comes
in, or does come in, when Ireflect back I think what took
place was these stories wereplaced in my childhood early on.

(15:17):
So I would listen to first theabridged version of the Lord of
the Rings and then eventuallymoved on to the Unabridged and I
would just listen to those whenI would go to bed.
So the stories were kind ofdeeply seated in me, right.
So then I think, you know, Igot my degree, I went on and I
was doing some entrepreneurshipand then I was doing logistics
broking and I was doing that andI just there was a longing for
I wanted to be part of, like thegood fight.

(15:38):
So in other words, like inthese stories, there's this, you
know, battle, there's thisbattle of good and evil and
there's these characters youfollow that go on the front
lines.
And there's even this greatscene with Sam.
I think it's in the movie,towards the end of the second
one, where Sam kind of givesthis speech and he says well,
frodo, remember all thosestories that we read, the ones
that really meant something andhow could everything go right

(16:00):
when everything had gone sowrong?
But those are the stories thatreally mattered.
And maybe we're in one of thosestories and I think that kind of
articulates that point.
Is you in that story you don'twant to be the Hobbit back in
Hobbiton, like smoking your pipeand having a pint, like you
want to be Legolas or Aragon orFrodo, you want to be on the
front lines.
And I think that's where thatstory kind of cultivated that in
me and although I couldn'tarticulate it at the uneasy with

(16:20):
my job, because I felt like Iwanted to be in a really
important battle, like fightingfor something that on my
deathbed I can look back and saythat was a fight worth fighting
.
So I think that is what movedme in.
Was this battle for the West,this battle for good breaking
into evil, dealing with theseweeds that have grown up in our
society, that are kind ofattempting to choke out this
gospel light, and so wanting tobe part of that battle was, I

(16:44):
think, what drove me.
Now, if you would have asked mein my entry exam to the
seminary, I probably would nothave articulated that.
I'd have been like I don't know, like I'm kind of interested in
theology and my dad was apastor and he seemed pretty
happy.
So you kind of learn thesethings as time goes on.

Speaker 2 (16:55):
Yeah, our stories are kind of similar, with the dad
being a pastor.
You don't really know.
We don't know much of anything,brian, to be quite honest,
truth has to be revealed to usand I don't know how all of this
is going to end.
So the spirit of adventure andfollowing, listening to the
voice and Jesus being out ahead,he's obviously within, but he's

(17:16):
definitely on the move and thecall is to something like
voluntary self-sacrifice for thesake of the gospel and for the
sake of mobilizing leaders toknow who he is.
But if you had, if you haveasked me at 26 years old, are
you going to be having podcastsaround all the topics that I've
had podcasts?
I don't know.
No, it's not on the, it's noton the agenda right now, but it

(17:39):
you know.
The way God kind of made youbecomes unfolded in time and I
appreciate the way the Lord madeyou as you entered into your
congregational life.
What were you like man?
I was ready to go and then whatyou know so much of our work is
on the job, training right whenyou get in.
And each congregation has uniqueculturals.

(18:00):
We preach the culturalimplications, we preach the
sermon on the necessity forrituals and rites, but those,
those rituals and rights are notfor themselves.
They are for something.
They point us to, obviously Godin the divine service and his
work for us.
But there are certain things inour churches that are unique.
We ring a bell seven times outhere.

(18:20):
I know you have a bell as well,but if I were to get rid of the
ringing the bell seven times,like I'd be.
It's like that's not in thedivine service, but we ring the
bell here seven times at the endof the service.
We say God is good.
All the time we have all ofthese kind of contextual rituals
.
This is a I inherited acongregation that is very much
focused on raising up leadersfrom within the congregation,
like that's a strong, strongvalues.

(18:42):
What did you, what were youprepared for and what were you
like?
Wow, that's.
I didn't see that one coming,anything there.

Speaker 3 (18:53):
Yeah.
So I think I was properlyprepared in the way that I could
be.
So I think there's certainthings you just have to learn on
the job, you know.
So, for instance, my, my veryfirst day in the office I was, I
was half, I had unloaded abouthalf my books, so I still had
boxes around, and a lady calledand it was her son had just
committed suicide.
Her son was a high schoolstudent and they weren't members
of the church.
So day one I was sitting downwith this lady and the
grandmother some mother andgrandmother whose son had

(19:13):
committed suicide.
I think it was either thatmorning or the night before.
And so I can, I can confidentlytell you I was not prepared for
that.
But I can also confidently tellyou there's no way that I could
have been properly prepared forthat.
You know, and I would reflecton, you know, and if I look back
, I would have had thatconversation different.
That being said, it wasappropriate for a pastor on his
first job and you know I wasable to articulate the gospel to
them.

(19:33):
You know I might have framedthe conversation different.
Or, you know, maybe gone intothe sanctuary and spent a longer
time praying, point being, youknow, those kinds of situations
the first time you're watchingsomebody die, there's just no
way that you can be properlyprepared, and there's a lot of
situations like that.
So you know, kind of what Ivalued in retrospect was, I
think that like the goal of likethe seminary, like it's kind of

(19:54):
trying to train your softskills more than your hard
skills.
You know, because we had somepractical classes that dealt
with some of these counselingthings and I don't know how much
I used what I learned in thoseclasses, because you just have
to, you have to be in thesituation and you have to kind
of react and adapt and thenreflect and then do it again.
So I think it was really justthose, those soft theological
skills, that kind of polishes, away that you think, in a way

(20:16):
that you process.
And I think that's myreflection at least is that
that's one of the big things isyou become, you become kind of
trained in that way.
It's kind of the same with, likesports or wrestling.
You know, I was a wrestlergrowing up and you know, when
you wrestle it's all about soft,it's all about you understand.
Your body becomes like water,like you need to understand
how's the other person moving,where's their weight

(20:37):
distribution, where are theypressing?
And it becomes second nature towhere a good wrestler is not
really thinking like I'm goingto do a half Nelson, now, you're
just, you're just respondingand that's so.
Wrestling is all about kind ofsoft skills that then move into
hard movements.
And I think the pastoraltraining is the same too, where,
like, it sets you up so thatyou can think theologically, you
can think with a gospel centerwhen how you're going to

(20:57):
communicate in these differentsituations.
And then you get thrown inthose situations.
Then you, you come out and yougo like, oh, that was tougher
than I expected.
And then you got, I should havedone this, should have done
this, and then you do that thesecond time, if that makes sense
.

Speaker 2 (21:07):
So yeah, yeah, no, I think the best in theological
formation is when you get taughthow to think.
There's frameworks, right, andnot necessarily what,
dogmatically what, but how.
And I felt super well trainedand then you work it out as you

(21:27):
get into the parish and certainexperiences.
I can place myself back in theclassroom with some of my
favorite professors and draw onthat wisdom.
But it's not just one person,it's like a collective.
It's kind of like the HolySpirit is responsible for it,
right, there's like a collectivewisdom that comes.
And so, yeah, shout out toeverybody who works to train up

(21:50):
the next generation of leaders.
You're doing a mighty, mightywork and we need more leaders
being raised up and love andpray for everyone in our
seminaries, for sure.
So let's talk about leadership.
This is a leadership podcast,right, brian?
And how is pastor, as youarticulated right now, in 2025,
seen as a leader?
And how is pastor as leaderframed up?

(22:10):
Maybe appropriately?
And how could it be framed upinappropriately?
How have you heard?
And so just use someappropriate and cautionary
language toward seeing pastor asleader.

Speaker 3 (22:21):
Yeah, that's a good question, certainly with a lot
of nuances as I reflect on it.
Maybe I can go two angles.
Maybe I'll kind of go first towhere maybe it's I don't want to
rule this out, but this is notlike the main focus and that is,
you know, as a pastor, you're aleader within an area right,
but you're not necessarily aleader in everything right.

(22:43):
So, you know, I think sometimesas a like as a pastor,
sometimes you can come with thisnotion, or I'll hear this
notion articulated, sometimeswhere it's it's like you have to
be a leader in everything right, and that's not really the case
, like I'm not trained to docertain things.
So, for instance, when it comesto like marriage counseling so
I do premarital counseling, whenI do weddings and we focus on
for the most part, like what isthe theology of marriage, you

(23:04):
know, going into Genesis 1, 2, 3, getting into Ephesians 5,
elsewhere, and kind of trying topaint a picture of here's the
lens by which to understand howGod articulates about marriage.
And I've been married for agoodness handful of years, seven
years.

Speaker 2 (23:19):
I'm 20.
It's easy to remember.
I'm 20 right now, 20 more thanfive.

Speaker 3 (23:23):
There you go, so I've got.
I've got some nuggets of thingsthat I've learned, but at the
same point there's there'scouples in this congregation
that have been happily marriedfor 45 years and they probably
have a better capability ofspeaking to some of the
practicalities of marriagechallenges than I do.
I've got, you know, seven yearsof marriage experience and a

(23:43):
great theological framework.
So if you want a theologicalframework, I can lead you
through that.
I can also give you sometidbits based on my own personal
experience, but that doesn'tmean that I'm the go-to person
for marriage right Now.
Maybe someone goes and gets anMA in marriage counseling or
something like that, where theyhave extra training.
But you know.
So there's a lot of areaswithin the church and without
where you know I say how do Igive you my thoughts on this?

(24:05):
Or well, here's something thatGod says.
But you know I'm not theend-all, be-all right, and I
think that's an importantclarification too, because
sometimes you can feel like youhave to wear all these different
hats when really, like your,your hat is.
Once again, your soft skillshave been trained theologically
to process the goodness, thetruth and the beauty of
scripture and how this isportrayed and then how it
interacts with the world aroundus, and you should be a leader

(24:26):
there and you should feelconfident that you can speak
within those areas with clarity,right, and with boldness, when
you do that within its properrealm and when you're confident
about that and when you trulybelieve it and people can see
that right In the way thatyou're passionate and you're
excited and you're willing tojump in and tackle these things
or someone has a question andyou don't have a right answer,
like you're going to go researchthat and get back to them.

(24:46):
Those are the areas where youshould be leading as someone who
is, you know, all of the Paul'sletters to Timothy, right, all
these kinds of things like beinga good father, being a good
husband, you know, having a goodreputation, that you're living
out this Christian faith as well, and then this kind of boldness
and clarity and being excitedto teach about it.
And if you do that, then Ithink people will gravitate
towards that.

(25:06):
And there's all these otherleaders and influencers that
come into their life within thebody of the church and all these
different areas, right, whichis kind of that emphasis of the
pastor is a pastor and that's aessential and bedrock position
within the church that needs tobe kind of maintained and held
up.
But then there needs to be allsorts of other leaders.
To your point, right, likethere needs to be elders, there
needs to be individuals that arereally good at finance.
There needs to be all of theseother people and we need to be

(25:28):
able to say and this skill setis really important for our
church too.
Right, they're not intermixableor interchangeable, but they're
all important.
So this raising up of leaders,or the body of Christ that can
do all of these different things, I think is very important.

Speaker 2 (25:40):
Well, the Apostle Paul hits on that quite
spectacularly in 1 Corinthians12, romans, chapter 12, talking
about the various gifts.
I find it fascinating that bothof those letters are written
not to a person but to thechurch, right?
So the church is going to needEphesians 4.
They're going to need under theoffice of holy ministry and I
don't really want to go down theAPEST pathway, but he does talk

(26:02):
apostle, prophet, evangelist,shepherd, teacher, right, and I
would say that that's one officewith maybe some different
nuanced gifts.
But nonetheless, there's goingto be different roles within the
church and you better not leadfrom a place of positional power
.
You should be clear about whatyour responsibility are, and for
us it's it's warden sacrament,right.
But, man, there's a lot of, alot of things that are beyond

(26:24):
that.
Let me.
Let me tease something thatsome of my friends would would
probably agree with and othersmaybe not, as not as much.
And we're still brothers in ourchurch body.
What's the role of pastor asvisionary leader?
That's a loaded word, right?
So thinking of, so does thepastor?
Is there a vision Sunday?
Is there a here's where we'regoing?

(26:46):
And here's kind of some of thestrategy, maybe not all of it,
but here's how we're going toget there.
It's going to be fueled withlove for us and for one another
and for the world.
You could make a case, and Ijust got off a podcast with an
attorney, alan Hoffman, whowalked devotionally it was
fascinating Walked devotionallythrough Jesus's high priestly

(27:07):
prayer in John chapter 17 andequated that to a visionary
speech.
Right, my hour has come.
I've done everything that'sneeded to be done.
The cross is ahead, and thenthere's this future reality for
what's going to happen on theother side and you're going to
be a part of it, disciples, andyou'll have joy and stay united

(27:30):
to one another in Christian love.
And there's others who areneeding to hear this word and
believe it, and you're going tobe proclaiming that word by the
Spirit's power.
So John 17, you could say Jesusis definitely offering a
preferred future and thedisciples invitation into that
preferred future by the Spirit'spower.

(27:50):
So any take on visionaryleadership.
I think this is where I thinkin our church body, we should
get clear with our language andnot be flippant with it.
So thoughts, brian, and I'llpiggyback.

Speaker 3 (28:03):
Yeah, I don't think this is an area of strength in
mind.
I haven't looked into this toomuch and I'm an associate pastor
, which means when a lot ofthese kind of macro decisions
come, I'm kind of a consultant,I can pass it off to Pastor
Duncan and say, yeah, there yougo, buddy, you know.
So there's, there's that, youknow.
I mean, one thought as you werespeaking was and this is more
macro than micro, I guess, butyou know that, you know I desire

(28:24):
that you would be one, as meand my father are one.
You know that language there,and I think that's something
that should always be applied ortaken seriously.
Right, and you know we talkedto Bill Weiner about this and he
made a good point that unity isalso that we would speak in
unity, right, so there's kind ofthis theological integrity that
is built into that, right.
So like, in the same way, it'snot like Christ is saying you

(28:45):
should be one with the Mormons,right, so it's.
You know it's obviously notthat, but there should still be
this desire that you know anykind of any kind of quick move
towards fragmentation orsplitting or anything like that.
It's just it does go againstthat spirit and it doesn't mean
there's never a time right, like, obviously, as we as Lutherans
would say, there was a timewhere, even though it wasn't the
prime goal of the start of it,but there was kind of the split

(29:07):
between Catholics and Lutherans,if you want to call it that way
, but like, and that those arebuilt over real issues that you
couldn't break past.
So there are those times, butany kind of at least emotional
movement towards we should splitand that kind of a thing,
whether it's within a church orin a broader spectrum, that's
never good.

Speaker 2 (29:23):
No, I agree.
I agree I would say the pastors.
To answer my own question, Idon't think his primary role is
visionary in the secular sense.
Is visionary in the secularsense I think there is a role
for a vision toward reachingmore people with the gospel and
then having the congregation,with all of our varied gifts,

(29:45):
figure out how we go about doingthat in our respective context.
But hopefully a pastor wouldlet us consider how to love and
spur one another on toward loveand good deeds, that there would
be this kind of galvanizing,spurring on component to our
preaching, because the days aretoo short to not want to reach
more people with the gospel andgive them a vision of what the

(30:05):
true good life looks likeconnected to the triune God.
That's great.
Let's get into your podcast alittle bit.
Amazing success reaching.
You know a lot of people, I'dimagine mostly within the LCMS
but probably outside in thebroader Lutheran community of
those confessing Lutherans, ofwhich there are a number of
smaller tribes even in theUnited States and that kind of

(30:27):
looked to some of us in the LCMSand you know we share in many
respects a very, very, verysimilar confession and so
they're looking in and watching.
You know your podcast.
You know we share in manyrespects a very, very, very
similar confession and sothey're looking in and watching
you know your podcast, thispodcast, and trying to kind of
discern where are we and whereare we going right now, and I
love that you kind of.
You know we've dealt with someof the pain points I would say

(30:50):
in the LCMS.
Your aim is as I can from anoutsider looking at it isn't
necessarily to do that, but tojust set up a place for
wonderful theologicalconversation.
Say more on why you started onthe line, brian.

Speaker 3 (31:02):
Yeah, the goal is definitely intellectually
forward, right, and that mightbe kind of a niche, so I'll get
out.
I won't bring in the internals.
So the internals are howTrinity united around this and
that's the only important thingto note there is Trinity.
My church has been completelybehind.
This is not a Brian Steckerthing, this is my call is
associated towards this At thispoint.
That was a change.
And then the district alsosupported it, not necessarily

(31:25):
financially, but they said youshould do this, we're in full
support of it.
So we had some unity aroundthat.
But really, where kind of theidea drove from was I would
strongly urge that the LCMS andthe Lutheran church is
drastically behind in the mediaspace, and that's not to take
away from issues etc.
You owe Brian Wolf, likethere's people that are doing

(31:45):
this.
But if you go, so for instance,if you go to the Catholic
church, who's probably one ofthe best ones they've got,
they've got well over a hundredchannels that have over 100,000
subscribers.
Many have over a million andmost of those are well above
100,000 too.
So they're a bigger church body, yes, but if you were to take
that and reverse engineer thatback to the Lutheran church,
we're not there, we're still.

(32:05):
We're drastically behind, andthe proof's in the pudding and
you could go into some of thenumbers or examples, which I
won't necessarily take the timeto do, but that this is a very
necessary way to engage,particularly millennials Gen X
is thrown into there too, butmillennials Gen Z, like this is,

(32:27):
people are engaging in themedia space and many Catholics
have found a way to Pints of theQuietness is the one that we
first reverse engineered, andthen Word on Fire is another one
.
That's more associated withwhat we're trying to do with lit
, right, but they're puttingintellectually serious things
out into the space where that isheavily demanded and what
they're doing, a lot of things.
Once one, there's a hugeconversion towards Catholicism
through this.
Okay, like these resources,right, and they're always

(32:48):
pushing people towards.
You know, go to mass and findyour local parish.
But then also, what they'vedone is they've been able to
because of the kind of momentumbehind this.
Now you find, like BishopBarron sitting with Jordan
Peterson on his round tablediscussion on the gospels, for
instance.
So now there's like a pluginwhere now the Catholic church is
being represented in this, likevery widespread space that's

(33:09):
hitting seekers, you know,agnostics, Christians across the
board.
And if you've got like a seekerthat's kind of becoming
interested in Christianity andis somewhat intellectually
oriented, and they come acrossBishop Barron in this structure,
which church are they going to?
They're going to go to theCatholic Mass.
They're not going to stumbleacross the Lutheran Church, and
that's exactly what you have todo.
If you're entering through thisspace, is you kind of have to

(33:30):
stumble upon.
Once again, I'm not taking awayfrom issues et cetera, because
they do have a huge followingand they they have done this
throughout their time in a verybig way.
So I'm not trying to minimizethat, but once again, a hundred
channels, well, over a hundredchannels, over a hundred
thousand subscribers and more,and uh, and we were not in the
long form space, and there'sother couple other spaces that
we haven't gotten into, andthat's, that's part of the our

(33:50):
kind of growth plan or is, touse your words, like you know,
it's part of our vision.
So it was, it was really areverse engineering aspect or
approach, and it's, it'scertainly served well.
So far We've exceeded some ofour goals.
But I mean maybe, if I can putit in two other ways one, you
can have truth, which we haveright, but you have to be able
to express it within beauty,right.

(34:10):
So it needs to be expertly done, expertly professed, and we
need to take that very seriously.
We need to shoot a serpents inthis way and be very, very smart
and diligent in how we we getthat message out Right.
If you have the truth and youhide it underneath a rock, you
know like, ok, good for you,you've got the truth.
So, yeah, so that's.
That's what I love aboutpodcasts is I get to make
friends with people that I maynot have been friends with, and

(34:30):
do you have an intention?

Speaker 2 (34:42):
I mean you invited me on, but are you?
Is there kind of across thespectrum of the LCMS in all of
our various contexts, and isthat a part of your aim to try
and be a bridge builder at all?
Yeah, go ahead, Brian.
What are your thoughts there?

Speaker 3 (34:57):
Yeah, that's certainly built into it and, to
be honest, we have had somepeople from other denominations
on too.
We're working a little bit moreon that.
We've reached out to a handfulof people and a couple have said
, yes, that we'll have on in thefuture.
So we do kind of want these,like you know, across the board
dialogues.
I think that's very helpful.
So for lit, for example, youknow we've got, we've got
Bierman from St Louis, we've got, you know, beck with Beckman,

(35:18):
and I'm going to go through thenames.
So we've got Adam Coonsclassical college, both
seminaries and the Concordiasystem covered, along with some
other other areas.
So that is kind of our goal.
We do want to unite this.
We do not want to be afragmented podcast.
That being said, our firstfragmented podcast, that being
said, our first kind of ourfirst move or our first goal, is
intellectual conversations, andI kind of take the Joe Rogan

(35:38):
approach of what are youinterested in, right?
So when I find someone who'slike written a book or an
article or speaking on something, or is recommended based on
something, I say that'ssomething I would like to learn
more about.
It's that's kind of the firstmover, is that?
And one of.
The one of the things we'velearned is you can almost track
it and for the most part, themore intellectually heavy the
topic is, the more views.
The more average duration, themore engagement.

(36:00):
So one of the theories as westarted was throw out this idea
that you need to kind of liketailor things down like you know
, teach it at like a freshmanand high school level, and I
think that's been really that'sbeen disproven in the public
spectrum.
When you look at who are thepopular speakers, they use
intellectual language, they'revery articulate, they're
tackling deep ideas and that waskind of our theory at first and

(36:21):
we found that when you've gotsomeone who's dealing with a
very deep topic and diving deep,people are very much engaged in
that.
We've got a very intellectualaudience here in the LCMS, which
is good, and then trying toleverage that and build on that.

Speaker 2 (36:35):
Love it.
What have you learned about theLCMS in having the range of
conversations you've you've had?
What are your biggest takeaways?

Speaker 3 (36:42):
Yeah, the first one would be that that we and that's
what I think that's you wouldsay that just historically,
looking at the Lutheran church,you would say we're a very
intellectually heavy church.
Like you know, if you look ateven just the numbers for
schools in America, like we, weweigh, we shoot, shoot far above
our waist, like you know, asfar as the amount of schools we
have, like we take educationvery seriously.

(37:02):
When you look at the way wearticulate doctrine, like the
book of Concord and such like we, we, we dot our I's and cross
our T's, we're not kind offlippant, you know.
Like we've I've got a goodfriend from the EV free church
and he was a pastor there andwhat you know his story that's
really interesting is he kind ofcame across the early church
and found that the sacramentswere important and he was kind
of wrestling with this and hewould kind of teach on this and

(37:22):
then he started talking to asenior pastor about it and the
senior pastor's like it's like,yeah, like I don't think there's
really much to the sacramentsand that's okay, right, that's
not in the LCMS.
Like we're, we're very, we'revery, we make sure that we are
intellectually forward and we,we dot our I's and cross our T's
theologically.
So that's, that's in our makeupand I think we need to be able

(37:44):
to articulate and feed into thatin this public public realm.
And the data has shown againthat that that is actually true.
Like our lay people are very,that is actually true.
Like our lay people are very,they're intellectual
heavyweights, right, and theywant to wrestle with these
things and be able to articulatethose things.
So that's one.
Two, we've got great resources,and by that I mean, you know
we've had what we've aired Ithink 69 episodes or something.

(38:04):
So we probably recorded 79 or80.
And you know, across the board,I just come across people that
are very impressive in all sortsof different ways.
I mean, you know your wisdom onleadership training, you know,
and your doctorate's degreethere, like that's a great
resource.
You know we've got people thatare experts in the early church,
experts on ethics.
I mean, across the board, theseare voices that are quite
profound and you know.

(38:26):
So that's one of those goals isto give them an opportunity for
you to learn from theseindividuals who have a ton to
teach and the wider world couldvalue from that.
So we've got a gold mine ofwisdom.
You know right here that we,that we want to share with the
world.
How do we.

Speaker 2 (38:39):
I couldn't agree more .
How do we keep fromcollectively becoming arrogant
with what we have?
And what do you have that youhaven't received?
Paul says right, there's,there's nothing that isn't
coming down from above, and towhom much is given, much is
required.
And how?
How is our intellectual, how doour intellectual heavyweights

(39:00):
continue to offer what they'vecome to deeply believe in?
But recognize this is the powerof, I think, a posture of
humility.
Recognize that in knowingsomething about this topic, you
know leadership, development,culture, healthy system
structures, that kind of stuff.
There's a whole that, becausethat's where I've spent a lot of
time.
There's a whole host of othertopics that I'm not, I don't

(39:24):
know and I got to learn andthat's why you I think you and I
both have the same approach islike, oh, my goodness, the world
is so amazing and there's noend to what we can learn, and
the end result being, brian,that, wow, I know pretty much.
I'm practically I'm a big dealAnchorman, because I know you
know something about something.
But no, the end result shouldbe I know so little about most

(39:49):
things.
Right, if you've done deep,deep work.
I think there could be thiscollective arrogance in the LCMS
that we must.
We must guard against, or elsewe may end up making idols out
of our intellect, rather thanthe one who has given us our
intellect.
Brian, anything to say?
Say there.

Speaker 3 (40:04):
Yeah, probably three thoughts, you know.
First, to kind of to that, thatcuriosity point, I think
Chesterton says the chief sinand he's being a little bit
satirical here, right, it'sChesterton.
So he's not actually sayingthis is like the prime sin, but
he's saying one of the chief sinis boredom, right?
In other words, like the wholeworld around you is amazing and
there's so many other peoplethat have so much to offer like
curiosity and that's.
I think that's it, that's theone skill set that helps me most

(40:25):
.
It's the curiosity where, whenI sit down with a guest, right,
and then that's, and I love thatbecause there's just this
wealth of knowledge that I canbe curious and and learn from
right, so that's that helps inthat realm.
One, two.
I'll say maybe two other thingson this.
So two, arrogance not the rightword I'm trying to think of

(40:47):
like the right word, but thereshould be.
I'm going to use arrogance andI'm not using this as, like, the
correct term, I just don't haveanother one but there should be
a little bit of arrogance inthat.
I mean, like there's swagger,that's the right word, like
there should be some swagger andconfidence.
You know it's in the same wayto where, like when you're
preaching, it's not swagger likeyou're, you're egotistical, but

(41:13):
there's this like confidence oflike, like, yeah, like like if
you go out there and you listento the other thinkers that are
around in your community, likethey don't have this to offer,
and it doesn't mean BrianStecker's offering it, it means
we're, we're discussing it andthe Holy Spirit is bringing it
here.
So that's the one like I.

(41:34):
So there should be a little bitof that to this.
Third point, which you know iskind of the caveat to that right
, is when you look at the, ifyou go to the seven deadly sins,
you've got pride.
Pride is number one.
When you go through the threetemptations in the wilderness,
you know pride seems to be thepinnacle, along with kind of
this desire for honor.

(41:54):
You know, if you kind of gothrough the three, the flesh,
the desire for honor, the desirefor power, so we should always
be wary of where does thatboastfulness goes, and Paul
speaks to that.
It's like I'm going to boast inthe gospel right.
So for Lutherans you should beable to say you know, what we
have here is a proper frameworkso that the gospel does not get
muddled and so that this goodnews and the truth, the goodness
and the beauty can be properlyexposed and we should boast in
that.
We should boast boldly andconfidently, right, and raise

(42:16):
your head up high as you have it.
At the same point, if you'reboasting in that what you have
received, it can't lead to likean intellectual boasting of like
look at me, right.
So it's all about kind of thatorientation of that, with the
two issues being if you minimizeboth and you become kind of
passive or like, or if you kindof elevate yourself and then you
become the egotisticalmegalomaniac.

Speaker 2 (42:38):
Yeah, yeah, good.
So Jesus has so much confidence?
Yeah, right, Jesus has.
He trusts fully in the Father'smission and he holds that
confidence in a way that drawspeople nearer.
They're curious about Jesus.
It's very obvious he can dothings and say things from a

(42:59):
position of profound authority,and that's where the Pharisees
are kind of looking at who givesyou that authority?
Well, it kind of came down onme.
We're pretty close, me and theFather are pretty close right.
But the way it drew not justthe disciples, the kind of came
down on me, we're pretty close,me and the father are pretty
close right.
But the way it drew not justthe disciples, the power of
invitation, come and follow me,but it absolutely changed the
whole world, as the apostleswent out as eyewitnesses of the

(43:21):
crucified and risen one, withthe appropriate level of
confidence in their message.
Don't worry, it's not going tobe you speaking, it's going to
be the Holy Spirit speaking.
But it was a winsomeinvitational.
Come, come, learn with me.
Come, come meet.
I love this.
Come meet the one this is awoman at the well who told me

(43:41):
everything I've done on thepeople in the town and Samaria,
like everything, everything.
Could this be the promisedMessiah, you know, and so I
think that's the that keeps usfrom hubris, that keeps us from
arrogance, you know, and so Ithink that's the that keeps us
from hubris, that keeps us fromarrogance.
There's a spirit of invitation.
We're courageous, we know ouridentity.
To be sure, there's no way we'refalling off in the LCMS on the
passive side we could become isis our brand and I had a

(44:02):
conversation about brand to thename LCMS.
What that means is that aninvitational group of people who
are gathering together, yes,with profound intellect et
cetera, but in a profoundhistory and tradition, Are we
inviting more people who areoutside of that tradition?
Lcms means very little in termsof their identity marker and

(44:23):
obviously there's way morepeople that are there in our
communities than identify withwho we are.
Are our congregations and ourleaders and our intellectuals
offering what we have with anopen, invitational hand that
will keep us from hubris, keepus from arrogance.
Any response to that, Brian?

Speaker 3 (44:38):
No, that was beautifully put.
I think that's.
Yeah, I mean you made thebetter point than I did, because
you went right to.
Jesus says that the perfectexample.
So I think that's spot on,thank you.

Speaker 2 (44:56):
Hey, so good.
All right, let's close withthis question here.
As you look, as I bring up theLCMS, as you look at us, what is
our unfair advantage?
Because I think there are manyOur unfair advantage as you
compare us with kindness andcharity to other denominations
Catholic to charismatic,everywhere in between as you
compare us, though, to othermainline denominations and the
rise of non-denominationalchurches and I say all that in
the context of only about 15% ofpeople being in a Catholic or

(45:17):
Lutheran or non-denom in mycommunity.
This blows my mind, brian.
The growth in our community,right With 1,000 people moving
into Maricopa County everysingle week, and not even that's
a great point.

Speaker 3 (45:31):
I heard you mentioned that before, and that's yeah.

Speaker 2 (45:33):
I mean it's mind blowing.
It's the size of our Sundayworshiping community every
single week moving into the EastValley and and more of them.
Here's one of my struggles isin our struggles here as a
congregation.
It's like how, how do we createawareness about we're a
Christian church, we're in atraditional, what may look to

(45:54):
some of you like Catholic.
But let me tell you the otherstory of grounding why we do the
things we do.
And sometimes I feel on thismarket where you've got
non-denom churches, who willstart another multi-site Brian
this blows my mind and launchone of their multi-sites with a
community of worshiping athousand people first Sunday and
500 end up sticking becausethey have strategies to buy lots

(46:17):
of land, you know, and not tomention our Mormon neighbors
here.
Right, buy lots of land.
Very strategic, long rangethinkers, and sometimes I don't
know that our strategy isfollowing as much of our
theology.
Do we have that sort of avision in all of our especially
urban, suburban communities andother communities in between to
say, wow, we need, we need morechurches right now?

(46:39):
I think that could be anopportunity for growth for us,
but there there is a strategicunfair advantage and I think
it's our theology, which is so,so great.
What do you think about ourunfair advantage right now in
the wider Christian landscape?

Speaker 3 (46:52):
Brian, yeah, no, that was.
You know, I've heard you speakon that before and I've it's
been.
It's been one of those, likeyou know, it gets planted here
and I just keep trying towrestle with like your situation
here and ours is a little bitdifferent.
We're a very we're growingcommunity but you know it's a
Lutheran, more saturated area.
So, yeah, kind of the fair,kind of maybe playing both sides
there, let's go Right.
So you know what's the fair?
There's the obvious ones andyou articulated it and I'll kind

(47:19):
of skip past it not to minimizeit, but because you know the
theology.
You know, I think one thingthat we can leverage more is
we're watching, particularlylike in the younger groups,
we're watching like a swingtowards traditionalism, and it's
not just in the church, it'skind of, it's kind of throughout
.
You can even watch it.
You know.
I mean Mormons very fastgrowing, they're a good example.
It kind of the interest in likespirit, like ancient spiritual
practices.
You know, if you go on YouTubelike you get a lot of these like

(47:40):
ancient Buddha meditationtechniques and stuff like that.
A little bit of that's new age,but a lot of it too, is just
this.
There's this intrigue, there'sthis recognition by people that
we've got a fractured societythat's lost its kind of
groundwork.
So people start to searchbackwards and they say, where's
that firm ground?
And that that moves them backtraditionally, right.
So sometimes they go back tolike the real ancient, or they
go to the Eastern and they,they're, they're looking for

(48:01):
that.
So if you look at the landscapeof churches, that that moving
desire means that you know,despite, despite the very valid
data point that you're talkingabout with some of these mega
churches, which is, you know,sometimes when you just get
large, there's a multiplicationeffect.
So that's kind of it's that'syou know one thing to table, but
the movement isn't traditional,which means Catholics, orthodox
and LCMS, lutherans have anadvantage there, right?

(48:23):
Other ones that have that havegone more modern, and by modern
I mean, like they've adoptedmodernist type philosophies,
women's ordination, things likethat, like that.
That is going to hurt them inthe long run and it's, I think,
numerically hurting them already.
We have demographic issues.
I think they have theologicalissues on top of probably
already demographic issues.
So that's, that's something toleverage.
Now what's the challenge to that?

(48:44):
Well, how do you get people toknow that?
Right, and that's certainly, Ithink, part of your mission and
my mission is like okay, sopeople get interested in that
and they go watch Father what'shis name?
From the Orthodox Church whoarticulates it wonderfully, and
young men are like there.
It is Like there's like therestoration of masculinity and
like the proper ordering of thehousehold and all of this kind
of stuff, and they get excitedabout that and so they're going

(49:06):
Orthodox or they see BishopBarron or Pints with Aquinas and
they, you know, they get drawnto the Catholic and it's so
that's.
I mean, that's kind of it's myshtick, but I truly believe it.
Right, like we need to be inthat space to show to the public
like, well, like what'sLutheranism?
This is Lutheranism, right, andit's and it's and it's serious
because people want to takesomething seriously.
It's not stuffy, you know.
Like you know, it doesn'tserious, doesn't have to be

(49:27):
stuffy, traditional, doesn'thave to be boring or anything
like that.
Right, it's the exact opposite.
There's this, there's thisvibrancy.
So that's, that's the gem thatwe have.
And the challenge is how do wearticulate it.
And that leads to the challenges, and the one that I would
probably highlight the most isarticulating this externally,
putting it out there in front ofpeople, so that there's access
points where people can saynever really heard about
Lutheranism, but like that's,that's a compelling case, oh,

(49:48):
they're interested in the earlychurch and you know, you can
just kind of play into that.
And then the other one, which isnot an area of expertise in my
area I think this is probablymore in your lane, but I think
there's there's very validquestions that you're asking.
As far as we've got a thousandpeople coming in Like what do we
do about?
Right, like they don't callBrian Stecker up, the associate

(50:10):
pastor of Minnesota, and say,like you know, just so you know,
here's what's going on inCalifornia, right, so I'm not
privy to those, thoseconversations.
Oh, they don't call me upeither, they don't call you up,
but like those, those areserious, those are serious
things that we should be andtrying to like taking that
seriously and say we gotta, wegotta jump at those things.

(50:32):
So I think that's a valid thingas well.
I don't have a ton of answersto that outside of kind of my
realm that I'm, that I'm leaninginto, cause you know I've
studied this now enough, butthere's there's a lot of other
ones, and that's where where youneed those kind of those voices
that are skilled in that areato say you know, here's

(50:55):
opportunities, and let'scapitalize on those
opportunities and jump at thoseopportunities, and I've said
publicly now that I'm nottalking about pastoral formation
, and so I'm not.

Speaker 2 (50:59):
This podcast has, though, talked about some
cultural and long rangestrategic concerns for us,
multiplying the message ofChrist crucified in the Lutheran
Church, missouri Synod, messageof Christ crucified in the
Lutheran Church, missouri Synod,which is what I'm praying for.
I'm praying for diverseperspectives and some of those
conversations I pray.
I pray there's an invitationalspirit for more and more of

(51:20):
those conversations about someof our pain points had to be
taking place privately and, ifit makes sense, for the help of
the church for some folks withdiverse perspectives.
I've been told that podcasts isnot the appropriate place for
some diverse perspectiveconversations in the LCMS, and
so we're not.
We're going to do the best wecan to talk about what the

(51:43):
church wants to talk about, andsometimes they're a little more
on the edge, I guess you may say, but but I'm not afraid.
Like all of my conversations inmy local church, there's lots of
edgy conversations that pastorstalk about like all the time,
you know.
So it doesn't feel for me likea different thing when I'm
talking about something that'sgoing on in the life of the

(52:04):
wider church.
But I know for some it feelslike a different and maybe even
a divisive thing, and if youknow my heart, brian, this is
why I love being with you.
That's the last thing I wouldwant to do.
We are an entrepreneurialcommunity here that like to test
new things.
Not that everybody else shouldbe doing what we're doing, but
yeah, we'll see how it all kindof plays out, and I know you and

(52:25):
I both share this.
We would love to see more unityin the LCMS toward toward our
one another, obviously, and thenunited in our mission to make
Jesus known and united,obviously, around scripture and
confessions.
Any any more comments there,brian?

Speaker 3 (52:42):
Yeah, maybe maybe two , just a plug to say, like you
know, I appreciate having a linewith you and vice versa, and
we've we've talked about somethings over the phone, right,
and whatnot.
I mean, when you were on, youthrew your cell phone number out
there, right.
Say like, hey, if you've gotthings, you can call me up and
talk about it, like if you'vegot challenging thoughts or
whatever.
But no, I appreciate that andmore of that, I think, is good,

(53:03):
right.
So if there's something likethat, tim says I'm like I don't
know about that, or vice versa,we like prime, like what were
you getting at there, like youknow, just taking the time to
talk there, one that's.
I just want to endorse that andto endorse that you're very
willing to do that.
You do it with me and you'veshared stories of doing it with
others, so I want to endorsethat publicly.
And then, one of the thoughtsyou were, you were talking about

(53:27):
in the ELCA, right, how they'rehaving, like they're having
conversations on the divinity ofChrist, right.
Like that's like that'ssignificant, so like there's
groups within, like their synod,that are arguing about that.
Like that's mad, like I can'timagine that.
So there's one like we don'tknow how good we have

(53:49):
discussions and you know,sometimes, you know Brian has to
be like you know what I wassaying, this and you know I
might be wrong.
So there's all these examples.
But at the same point, likewe're not arguing over the
divinity of Christ or the youknow the article justification,
so in many ways we have itreally good and I think that's
because of the theological ac.
Like like people do disagree onthings and that we should
debate these things.
But at the same point, likewe're very healthy in that as

(54:16):
like an LCMS and like I justdon't see any reasonable reasons
for like a split or anythinglike that to where it's.
Like when I look at the ELC I'mlike you guys might split over
the divinity of Christ.
Right, that we should recognizethat concordance.
That, I think, is there.
Amen.

Speaker 2 (54:30):
Hey Brian, this has been great dude.
I'm grateful for yourfriendship, partnership in the
gospel, for the way God made youand for your desire to put it
on the line.
People you should follow on theline.
It's wonderful, and all therange of guests you're having
praying for you and yourministry, your family, your new
little one coming.
If people want to connect withyou, what's your?
Just like church email.
If people wanted to cause I getthis from time to time.

(54:52):
Hey, have you talked toso-and-so?
No, okay, yeah, if someonewants to recommend or just
connect with you, how can theydo so?

Speaker 3 (54:57):
Yeah, if on the linenet is the best way because
the contact information's onthere.
So that's a good place to justmean, unless if anyone's got a
pen and they're going to writeit on brianstecker at
trinitywaconiaorg.
Yeah, so just check out thewebsite and you'll find my
contact information on there.

Speaker 2 (55:16):
Hey, this is good man , this is lead time like
subscribe, comment wherever itis you take in these podcasts,
and it was an upward, movingconversation.
We're growing together.
I learned more about CS Lewistoday.
That was super, super fun andI'm again just grateful for our
partnership in the gospel,praying for you and for more
churches like Trinity that wantto raise up leaders, newer,

(55:37):
younger pastors and say hey, ifyou got a vision, let's see
about accomplishing that vision.
Our congregation is the sameway with the Unite Leadership
Collective.
Let's see about releasing youngleaders into a creative
adventure and to see how it allshakes out.
It's shaking out really, reallywell for you, brian, and praise
, praise be to God.
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day.

(55:58):
Thanks, brian, thanks Tim.

Speaker 1 (55:59):
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(56:22):
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