May 6, 2025 • 55 mins
Dr. Jon Braunersreuther joins Tim Ahlman to challenge one of the most persistent false dichotomies in Lutheran circles: the notion that being "confessional" and "missional" represent opposing priorities. Drawing from his role as Director of District-Wide Strategy for the Texas District LCMS, Jon presents a compelling alternative—a reciprocal and reinforcing relationship where strong theological convictions naturally fuel passionate mission work, and authentic mission efforts necessarily depend on doctrinal clarity.
• Conviction implies connection between cognitive understanding and affective heart response that moves us to action
• True Lutheran confessional convictions naturally lead to missional cause—sharing these beliefs with those who don't yet know Jesus
• The false dichotomy of "confessional vs. missional" can be replaced with a reciprocal, reinforcing relationship model
• Article 4 of the Augsburg Confession (justification by grace through faith) has powerful missional implications
• 1 Timothy 4:16 demonstrates the biblical foundation for watching both "life and doctrine closely"
• The Book of Concord preface states doctrines are preserved "to be kept and spread"
• Luther himself emphasized that faith "will not do for each one hearing the gospel to go his own way" but must be extended
• The Texas District aims for 500 new leaders in 500 new places by 2031, inspired by Ethiopia's Mekani Yesus Lutheran Church
• First Article gifts (reason and senses) should be used for mission planning without fear of "programming the Holy Spirit"
• The Jerusalem Council (Acts 15) demonstrates how the early church discussed mission problems and reached consensus
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is Lead Time.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Welcome to Lead Time.
Tim Allman here, Jack Calvertstill on vacation.
It's a great day to be alive.
Pray.
The joy of Jesus is with you asyou lean into a wonderful, fun
conversation today with ReverendDr John Browners Reuter.
He's been on with me before.
I think he was on the AmericanReformation podcast a while back
, or maybe it was Lead Time.
I don't know.
I think he was on the AmericanReformation podcast a while back
(00:25):
, or maybe it was lead time, Idon't know.
You could go back in thearchives and listen to that one.
But today we're going to betalking about a presentation
that John gave to circuitpastors at circuit meetings in
the Texas district.
He is currently the director ofdistrict-wide strategy for the
Texas district of the LCMS.
In addition, he serves asmission strategist for the
greater Houston metropolitanarea of the Texas district.
He received his MDiv fromConcordia Seminary, St Louis
(00:48):
1989.
Doctor of the Ministry fromRegent University in 2019.
And this is the bio that hesent me.
He has a stunningly beautifulwife, Rachel.
You married up just like I did,John, Fair enough, and they are
the parents of now.
How do I say Adah?
Am I saying that?
Speaker 3 (01:07):
right, yeah, andy, and his wife's name is Adah Adah
.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Okay, and Aaron, who is married to also a pastor,
aaron LaHue.
Is that right?
That's right, lahue?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And grandparents to Jax.
He got three grandkids Jax,judah and Ray Lynn.
How are you doing today, john?
Thanks so much for hanging out,I'm great.
Thanks for having me.
This is going to be great.
So the title of yourpresentation Conviction Cause.
Community Mission in the TexasDistrict.
(01:34):
Let's start there.
Talk to us about how youconnect confessional as
synonymous with conviction andmissional as synonymous with
cause.
What a joy to be with you, john, and missional as synonymous
with cause.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
What a joy to be with you, john.
Yeah, it's great to be here,and you know the word conviction
.
I like the word convictionbecause I think it implies a
connection between what's goingon in our heads and what's going
on in our hearts, between thecognitive and the affective
domains.
It's knowledge that actuallymeans something to us and moves
(02:06):
us to action.
And as Lutheran Christians, wehave convictions.
We have convictions that arebased on the truth of Holy
Scripture.
We're sola scriptura people,we're people of the Bible, and
we have convictions that arebased on the Lutheran
confessions to which wesubscribe.
(02:27):
So those are our convictions.
We have confessionalconvictions, we have doctrinal
convictions based on HolyScripture and Lutheran
confessions, and then we have acause.
I think, that arises out of ourconvictions, and it's a
missional cause.
We have reason to want tospread what it is that we
(02:51):
believe to the world, to peoplewho do not yet know about Jesus,
and I think that you know.
Sometimes we get that question,you know, or we pose it to
ourselves, you know, are youmissional or are you
confessional?
Which one are you?
And you know, or we pose it toourselves, you know, are you
missional or are youconfessional?
Which?
Which one are you?
And, and you know, if you'relike most people, you say, well,
I'm both right.
You know, cause, we kind ofknow that's the right answer
(03:14):
both Um or or.
We put it on a continuum, youknow, as if you know you got
confessional on this end of thecontinuum and you got missional
on this end of the continuum.
Now, where are you on thiscontinuum?
And you know, some people willsay, well, I'm right in the
middle.
You know, because thatindicates I'm both confessional.
(03:35):
And we have this saying inTexas.
You know, the only thing that'sin the middle of the road is
yellow stripes and deadarmadillos, you know.
So you know, I think thatthere's a better model than that
.
I think there's a better model.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Well, so let's talk about that Instead of using kind
of the metaphor of the middleand then right and left, which
does go down the political line,to be sure.
And I've been making theargument that we're going right
down the exact same politicaldivisive line today by
bifurcating confessional andmissional, turning what should
be a verb into a noun theconfessionals and the missionals
(04:13):
.
It's just not helpful.
So what's a better metaphor forus, john?
Rather than being down themiddle.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Yeah, and I'm going to put forth a little model.
But there was a Britishstatistician by the name of
George EP Box.
Isn't that a great name, by theway, george EP Box?
And maybe just because my lastname has 15 letters in it, I'm
enamored with people that havethree in their last names.
But he said all models arewrong but some are useful.
(04:41):
All models are wrong but someare useful.
So, with that caveat in mind, Iwould say I believe that there
is a reciprocal and reinforcingrelationship between being
confessional and being missional, a reciprocal and reinforcing
relationship.
And so you know, if you want toimagine this graphically,
(05:06):
imagine, you know, the wordconviction or confessional at
the top of a little graph and anarrow pointing down to
missional or cause, and then anarrow pointing up from missional
and cause back to confessionalagain.
I think that they arereciprocal and I think that they
reinforce one another.
And this is what I mean.
(05:27):
I mean, let's take an exampleof a confessional doctrine.
Let's pick out, let's say,article 4 of the Augsburg
Confession, which is aboutjustification, right?
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Yeah, obviously it's the biggest one.
It's what we've kind of hungour hat on.
Right.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
We've said you know, we have our head on which the
church rises to falls.
Yeah, yeah, exactly this is thedoctrine upon which the church
stands or falls.
You know, this is really animportant doctrine.
We are saved by grace, throughfaith, entirely by the merit of
jesus christ, and not because ofwhat we have done are we
(06:05):
guaranteed eternal life, which I, you know.
I just have to stop at thispoint and say you know, number
one, that's true, and number two, that's really good news.
Is it nice news?
It's the best you know.
Know, it's fantastic.
Who wouldn't want paradiseforever and have it be free?
(06:31):
It's free.
You don't have to earn it, youdon't have to deserve it.
And now that you got it, youdon't got to prove it Not to God
, not to God.
The proof lies in the cross ofJesus Christ.
It's wonderful news, it's greatnews.
That's a doctrine, and I want tosay we should get our doctrine
(06:52):
right.
Yeah, we should, and I want toget, for instance, that doctrine
.
I want to be sure that it'sright, that it is pure.
We should get it right.
But my point is is thatdoctrine has missional
implications?
Okay, so, first of all, it hasan implication for my life and
(07:14):
yours.
I mean, by the grace of God, Iam on my way to heaven forever
instead of hell forever.
That's great news.
But the fact of the matter isthat doctrine which we believe
in, which we believe, teach andconfess that we are determined
(07:35):
in this church body to get rightand we should has implications
for everyone, everyone foreveryone.
Everyone.
Everyone has an eternity tospend someplace and that
(08:00):
doctrine says without Jesus,without the grace of God, it's
hell forever.
Our doctrine reinforces ourmission and that's true.
You can pick out any doctrine,any doctrine that we have, any
doctrine that we work so hard toget right and we should work
hard to get it right.
They all have missionalimplications, missional
(08:31):
implications.
And if we are missional, if weare truly missional, we ought to
be concerned about what thetrue doctrine is, because
otherwise, what am I missionalfor?
I mean, if I don't have somepassion about something, if I
don't believe something stronglyabout something, if I don't
believe something strongly, youknow, you know then why do this?
It's too hard, I don't know ifwe have it right anyway, let the
(08:52):
Baptist do it.
So if I don't, if I, if I don'thave some convictions, why be
involved in the cause?
That's right.
And if I and if I do haveconvictions, I can't help but be
involved.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
John, how did we arrive at this place where we
all I mean who would listen towhat you just said in our church
body and say you know whatthat's all wet?
I mean, if you read the Bible,and here's what I mean shout out
to Paul Robby, are we readingthe Bible?
It's very clear that God is ona mission and that mission
includes the entire world, well,no, the entire cosmos.
(09:28):
Romans, chapter eight, which isgroaning for restoration.
Right, everything has been hurtand there's a day that is
quickly approaching, when Jesusis returning to gather all of
his kids, that there's going tobe a day of the separation
between the sheep and the goats,the wheat and the shafts, you
know, those who believe in,those who do not believe, and if
we believe there's going to bea separation, people outside of
the presence of Jesus.
(09:48):
Shouldn't that give us greatconviction, clarity around who
Jesus is, what he's done, whatthe word says, what it means to
be a part of the church,obviously, justification by
grace, through faith, and thenthat cause to make him known.
This is the cruciform life ofJesus.
As I have done so, will you dothrough the cross to new life
(10:10):
Like I don't?
I don't, maybe you're more of ahistorian.
I don't get how.
And I do understand why,because we have the battle over
the Bible, we have Seminacs, wehave some of these wounds.
We've just not processed a lotof our struggles.
I mean, I think that's the nearthe more recent why.
And then we have maybe thewounds of the church growth
movement and how some think thatin the contemporary spaces
(10:31):
you've compromised some teaching, which we're doing better work
right now, I think, to writebetter songs for the church that
are, yes, in a modern,contemporary space, but very
Jesus-centered, very Doctrine ofJustification by Grace Through
Faith-centered, veryJesus-centered, very doctrine of
justification by grace throughfaith centered, very narrative
centered.
The bell is being rung rightnow, if you can't hear it,
chapel is happening right hereat Christ Greenfield.
(10:52):
Anyhow, those are some of thehistorical reasons.
But who in our church bodywould deny this kind of clarity,
this reciprocal relationshipbetween conviction and cause?
I'm left kind of curious aboutit, john, your take.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
Well, you know, I think that we all have
predilections.
I think we have things thatmake us comfortable.
All right, and you know some ofus, you know, and that's why I
think we need to apply thesewords, you know, this idea of a
reciprocal relationship toourselves.
I have to apply it to myself.
What makes me more comfortable?
(11:25):
Am I more comfortable studyingtheology and getting it right
and sort of being polemic, or amI one of those people that
really has a heart for outreachand mission?
And wow, that's the thing thatI really want to do?
I think we all need to remembertime is short and hell is hot,
(11:48):
you know, and we have somethings that we have convictions
about and so, hey, let's dosomething about it.
And you know, this is biblical,you know, and it's directly
biblical.
The one passage from Scripturethat I think is just so clear is
first timothy, chapter 4.
Uh, starting with verse 16, stpaul writes to timothy watch
(12:10):
your life and your doctrineclosely.
And I mean, is that not a clearpacket passage?
Okay, your life and yourdoctrine, all right.
So this is not, you know.
Oh, let's get doctrineright-ish, you know?
No, this is get it all right.
You know, get it all right,watch your life and your
(12:33):
doctrine closely.
But then he very quickly addsthe second part of that If you
do what, you will save yourselfand your hearers.
You will save yourself and yourhearers.
See, see, there there is amissional purpose for
correctness in doctrine there'sa missional purpose.
(12:54):
Um, how about?
How about saint paul to thecorinthians?
Uh, fifth chapter, uh, the loveof christ compels us.
And then you know, that chapteris about the ministry of
reconciliation.
Of course that's the the topic.
But he talks about the love ofchrist compels us.
Now I get a little wonky on youhere.
(13:15):
Uh, you know so.
So for the greek scholars outthere, um, uh, yeah, is that a
subjective or an objectivegenitive?
All right.
So the question is is how doyou translate it?
Is it our love for Christ thatcompels us, or is it Christ's
love for us that compels?
Speaker 2 (13:35):
us.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
I think that the context clearly indicates and
the verse kind of works eitherway, but I think the context
clearly indicates it's asubjective genitive.
It's that Christ's love, thatwonderful doctrine of
(13:56):
justification by grace throughfaith and all of the articles of
the faith that go along with it, all right, compels us to a
message of reconciliation.
You know, if I'm saved by gracethrough faith and, for instance
, if I believe that baptism is ameans of grace that should be
applied to babies, to children,that the Holy Spirit can work
(14:21):
faith in the life of an infantthrough baptism, you know I'm
kind of passionate for that.
I want people to understandthat I am delighted when people
come to faith in Jesus Christ,in whatever theological
tradition they come into it.
That's a good thing, right.
(14:41):
But you know what I believe.
We got the truth here and I'dreally rather have people
believe what I believe is thefullness of the truth.
Yeah, when people come to theLord's Supper, I want them to
understand hey, you are reallyand truly receiving the body and
blood of Jesus in with andunder the bread and wine for
(15:03):
your forgiveness, life andsalvation.
I want people to understand that.
I don't want them to be in aplace where that isn't taught.
I want them to have the full.
There are missionalimplications for the doctrines
that we believe, Not to mentionthe fact that Luke says in
chapter 19, the Son of man cameto seek and to save the lost.
(15:25):
The Missio Dei itself, themission of God itself, is a
doctrine.
The Great Commission itself isa doctrine.
So if we're going to bedoctrinally pure, let's be pure
about all the doctrine, whichincludes the mission of God,
which includes the GreatCommission.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
I think it's good, john.
So let me try this on Do youthink in our church body there's
been a misunderstanding of andI don't like the right or left,
but maybe the bent you could useright or left hand hemisphere
of the brain and gifting toward,because Paul is very clear
Ephesians, chapter 4, that hegave.
(16:05):
I think there's one office butthen there's multiple kind of
functions in that office Apostle, prophet, evangelist, preacher,
teacher, lot of time, just tomake a point in my office, doing
deep exegetical work for thefocus of 15 to 25 minute message
(16:30):
, and I need to spend the 15minute work, or I'm working on
my PhD toward one part of thedoctrine within the church and
this is going to be a blessing,like my day is not spent as much
as some people who are theextroverts, the missional
oriented, the new starters, theentrepreneurs out there, and
those, those two different typesof groups, those that are out
(16:52):
there, I would say theevangelist, um, and for those
that are the teacher, moreinternal, we just talk right
past each other.
We don't have room to love andcare and respect one another
based on our, based on our bent,if we could say you know what
evangelists I need, you, I'mbetter because you are out there
sharing the gospel consistently, bringing people to a saving
(17:12):
knowledge, bringing them,incorporating them into the life
of the church.
But I'm more discipleship bentrather than outreach bent.
Right, is there something there?
I think there is, and some ofmy research has been on the
personalities of thosebehavioral sets of those that
are pastors in the church.
Most of them are, I would say,imbalanced.
(17:33):
This is not bad, but there's amajority of us that are more
imbalanced toward discipleship,anonymous, with that is
conviction around our doctrines,rather than maybe aggressively
and I use aggressive in ageneral sense or or dynamically
imbalanced toward, towardmission and evangelism.
We've just like talked rightand when there's the water's
(17:55):
warm, there's room for everybodyin this, in this place, from
apostle all the way to preacherand teacher, evangelist and
prophet.
Anything more to say there,john, is that is that a fair
take?
Speaker 3 (18:03):
Yeah, well, and that's why I said before, I
think that we need to apply thisidea of conviction and
community to ourselves.
I have to apply it to myselfand think about okay, where am I
more comfortable?
Right.
And if I'm a person who iscomfortable getting the
(18:24):
convictions correct which is theright thing to do, by the way,
I want to reinforce it.
Getting the doctrine correct isright.
There's nothing in the Biblethat says otherwise.
If that's what I'm morecomfortable with, then I have to
kind of apply this to myselfand say, yeah, but my
convictions, they ought to bemoving me to mission, because if
(18:47):
I really believe what I say, Ibelieve there are missional
implications.
And if, on the other hand, ifI'm the missional guy who's all
about, you know, who has thispassion for people, who wants to
be sure that people go toheaven forever, you know I want
to be out there with people.
You know I'm not the sort ofguy who wants to sit in my
office and study very much.
(19:07):
I better be saying to myselfyeah, but what am I saying?
Amen, right, do I?
Do I have this right or wrong?
And see, that's why I thinkthat you know the.
The title of my littlepresentation, tim, was
Conviction, cause and Community,and I think it's that third C
(19:28):
that is, that is vitallyimportant.
And you know, for this I wouldgo, you know, and I'm sure that
you were up reading the handbookof last night before you before
you went to bed, as you'reintegrating I, I know all your
and everybody who's listening tothis podcast does too.
I'm sure, sure, but there arereally some gems in there,
particularly in the Constitution.
I love the preamble to theConstitution of the Lutheran
(19:52):
Church, missouri Synod.
The preamble to theConstitution is entitled Reasons
for the Formation of aSynodical Union and there are
two of them given.
And I wonder, you know, justI'll pause here for a minute and
I just wonder if the listenersto this podcast know what the
reasons are for the formation ofa synodical union.
(20:12):
But but they are there.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
I do.
I do Because I'm, because I'vehung out with you.
John, thank you for turning meon.
And I have read, and I haveread the handbook.
So, nonetheless, but not everynight, just yeah night.
All right, give it to us.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
Yeah.
So the first one is the exampleof the apostolic church in Acts
, chapter 15, which, of course.
What is that?
It's the Jerusalem council,right?
It's the first churchconvention, and what was the
problem there?
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Deep debate.
What do the Gentiles got to doto be brought in?
And there was, after muchdiscussion, debate.
Like the people have somestrong opinions here.
They united on a certainperspective, but they had a long
time discussing their variousopinions about what the Gentiles
had to do.
Say more about that, John.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
Yeah, you know.
And you know, it strikes methat the church first church
convention was convened around amission problem.
Yeah, it was a mission problem.
All these Gentiles are comingto the faith.
What are we going to do withthem?
Do they have to follow all theJewish laws or not?
And you know what?
The missional people talked tothe doctrinal people and the
(21:18):
doctrinal people talked to themissional people and everybody
had their say and they came to aconsensus around what it was
that needed to be done.
So the example of that that'swhat we are meant to be in the
Lutheran Church Missouri Synod.
(21:38):
We are meant to be in theLutheran Church Missouri Synod.
You know it wasn't one grouplording it over the other group
or forcing the other group, youknow, to do what they thought
was right.
It was enough of a discussionaround an important,
controverted issue that theywere able to come to a consensus
.
And that's what we're supposedto be in the Lutheran Church
(22:01):
Missouri Synod.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Well, I think there's great help in understanding
what they actually said in Acts,chapter 15, because they said
that they shouldn't do anythingexternal to prove themselves as
righteous.
So circumcision, no, but, and Ithink there's two kinds of
righteousness is seen here.
So we are passively broughtinto faith, but then don't eat
(22:25):
meat, the sacrifice, don't doanything like horizontally that,
and Paul doubles down on this.
So this is the convictionaround hey, no sexual immorality
.
There's a new way that we areliving here as we give witness
out into the world and stand onour conviction of, by grace,
through faith, passivelyreceived, through the work and
merit of of Christ.
(22:45):
Anything more to say about,because there was, there was
consensus and both, both sides,kind of say I can see it and I
can see this side, and we'restill preserving a new way of
being in our community.
We're convicted around our, ourdoctrines, namely what our
witness looks like to theoutside world.
John, take that.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
Well, you know, and I would love it if, in our church
body, we actually had thosekinds of discussions that
brought us together, because,you know, around whatever the
controverted issue might be,god's word is powerful.
The Holy Spirit is powerful, heworks in the hearts and minds
of people, and you know thesecond reason for the formation
(23:26):
of a synodical union, that thediversities of gifts might be
for the common profit.
And 1 Corinthians 12 is thepassage that's mentioned there,
which is the parts of the bodyof Christ, all of which are
vital, all of which areabsolutely vital.
And one of those types ofdiversity is diversity of
(23:53):
opinion.
And so when I see somethingdifferently from the way you see
it, you know what we need totalk with each other about that,
because the same spirit livesin me, you, that that lives in
me, all right.
So so it's, it's important forus to discuss those, amen.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Amen.
So where is this cause?
Conviction, interplay,reciprocal relationship seen in
the Book of Concord.
Speaker 3 (24:18):
Interplay reciprocal relationship seen in the Book of
Concord, john.
Yeah, well, and I love this, apart of the preface to the Book
of Concord.
Why was the Book of Concord puttogether?
Well, it's listed in thepreface, all right, and I love
this particular paragraph fromthe Book of Concord.
They write we have desired todirect and earnestly exhort our
(24:42):
churches and schools first ofall to the Holy Scripture and
the creeds and then to theaforementioned Augsburg
Confession, in order thatespecially the youth who are
being trained for service in thechurch and for the holy
ministry may be instructedfaithfully and diligently so
that among our descendants thepure teaching and confession and
(25:07):
confession of the faith may bekept and spread.
There you go, through the helpand assistance of the holy
spirit.
Isn't that amazing that?
That's it Amazing, yeah, soit's not a doctrine to be kept
just for the sake of beingdoctrine.
This doctrine is there and itis to be spread.
(25:29):
And you know this is reallyconsistent also, I think, tim,
with what our church fathershave said, what Luther has said
on down the line.
Another quote for you here thisis from Walther's proper form of
a Lutheran congregation that hepresented to the Western
District I think it was 1862,one of his theses it is also
(25:53):
incumbent upon the congregationto do its part in building up
and promoting the welfare of thechurch at large.
And then he quotes a couple ofimportant Bible passages Amos 6,
6, acts 11, 21 to 23.
And then Walther goes into thisLuther quote.
Get this Luther quote.
This is amazing, you know,because we often think of the
(26:16):
time of Luther as being the timeof it was all about doctrine.
It was all about, yeah,everybody was Christian in some
way, shape or form.
Admission wasn't a thing andlet's just get the doctrine
right.
But this is what Luther said.
Luther Mark 16, 16,.
He that believeth and isbaptized shows that faith must
(26:37):
not remain concealed and hidden.
It will not do for each onehearing the gospel to go his own
way, to believe for himself andnot to confess his faith before
others.
No, it should be known and seenwhere the gospel is not only
preached but also believed andreceived.
That is where the church andChrist's kingdom is to be found
in the world.
For that purpose, christ bringsus together and holds us
(27:00):
together through the divine signof baptism.
Otherwise, if we remained apartand separate, without such an
external bond and sign,christendom could not be
extended and preserved.
Therefore, christ binds ustogether in this divine
community, the church, in orderthat the gospel be spread
(27:23):
farther and farther and othersbe brought into the fold through
our confession.
You asked the question beforehow did we get off onto this
thing where we're just abouttheology?
Well, it didn't come fromLuther, it didn't come from the
(27:49):
confessors, somehow somewhere,someplace along the line.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
We strayed from that, Another type of spirit, and I
feel like it's a spirit that'sputting us back under the weight
of the law and we should get itright.
But the reason we get it rightis for our homes and for our
communities, that all would besaved and come to a knowledge of
(28:12):
him.
We're walking through Markright now, john, through our
Lenten journey to the cross andempty tomb, and it's funny, you
mentioned Mark 16, 16.
That's in the extended versionof Mark, right?
I think the suspended endingtake on ending at verse eight is
quite fascinating for therhetorical reason of saying.
(28:33):
The women left with fear andgreat trembling and they told no
one anything, no words, becausethey were fearful.
Now we know the women actuallyended up telling the men what
they'd seen and heard.
But the rhetorical element ifyou end at the suspended ending
of verse 8, is for you as thehearer, who have simply heard
(28:54):
the word.
You haven't seen the risenJesus.
You've just heard the angelicproclamation.
What are you going to do withit?
Are you going to be faithfulwith it, carrying it to others
who are under the weight, thecrushing weight, of their sin,
locked up in the upper room oftheir heart wondering if God is
for them, if he loves them, andthen let them know Jesus is
breaking into that upper roomand saying peace be with you, I
(29:16):
love you, I forgive you, I'mbreathing my spirit upon you, oh
, and as a father has sent me,so I'm sending you.
Any, take on, like the firstevangelist, these women, having
heard the word, they carry theword back to the scared
disciples.
Any, take there, john, on Mark16, 8?
.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
Yeah, you know, and the thing is, the most important
historical event ever in theworld is the resurrection of
Jesus Christ, without questionthe most important historical
event in the world, and that's adoctrine, right, it's
resurrection, but it moved.
(29:55):
The conviction about that movedthose women to mission, it
absolutely moved those women tomission.
And without the resurrection,of course, st Paul said, our
faith is in vain, you're stillin your sins, and what
motivation is there?
But with the resurrection thereis such great motivation.
(30:19):
And you know, I just think thatthat you know it.
Just, it's just another exampleof this interplay between
conviction and and cause, amen.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
All right, you've done some work on balancing
confession and mission with thehistorian, the kind of church
historian, ed Stetzer.
Ed's been writing some, somework on theological pastoral
formation recently too.
Just read an article from himthat talks about actually the
seminaries, the academics, thosewho are convicted around the
doctrines of the church doingmore today and this is what our
(30:51):
prayer is actually, with both ofour seminaries doing more to
get closer to the context of thevariety of different types of
congregations that exist in theLCMS.
I'm praying for that, to besure.
So what is Stetzer'sperspective on the balance
between confession and mission?
John?
Speaker 3 (31:06):
Yeah, you know, when I give this presentation, what I
love to do is without revealingthat it's Ed Stetzer who says
this.
I like to ask the question whatcontemporary LCMS author wrote
these words?
Because these words sound likean LCMS guy writing them.
(31:30):
So I want to just read thislittle narrative.
This comes from Ed's work ViralChurches that he wrote several
years ago, and I just I thinkit's amazing.
He writes in 1910, churchleaders came together in
Edinburgh, scotland, under theslogan the evangelization of the
(31:50):
world in this generation.
That sounds like a great thing,doesn't?
Speaker 1 (31:54):
it.
It sounds awesome yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
Leaders of most major denominations were present to
discuss how they could worktogether to win the world to
Christ.
Ok, they assumed that everyonewho loves missions must also
love the Bible and be committedto it in a similar way.
Initially that was true, sodifferences in doctrine,
structure and polity wereintentionally set aside for the
(32:17):
purpose of helping each othersend out missionaries.
Unfortunately, the follow-upconferences ultimately steered a
different direction.
By 1928, the InternationalMissionary Council, which had
been founded because of the 1910meeting, questioned the need
for personal witness andincreasingly focused on service.
The 1938 InternationalMissionary Council meeting
(32:42):
questioned the need forconversion among devout
followers of other faiths.
Though much good has beenaccomplished through the
International Missionary Counciland its successors, the
historic lesson for many is thatmissions without a doctrinal
framework tend to lose thegospel's transformational power.
(33:03):
And here's the, once again, thekicker line is right at the end
.
No mission organization hasmaintained its focus on the
gospel without a strongdoctrinal foundation.
And so, in addition toeverything that Scripture has to
(33:23):
say about keeping our doctrinepure and it says it over and
over again St Paul said ifanyone should preach to you any
other doctrine than what Ipreached to you, let him be
accursed, or St John at the endof Revelation.
If anyone would add anything tothis book or take away from
this book, let all of theplagues that come from this book
(33:45):
fall on him.
It's all throughout Scripture.
But, as a practical matter, ifwe're going to be about the
mission, if we're going to beabout the mission, we must
maintain a strong doctrinalfoundation, and this is one of
the things that actually givesme hope for our church body, Tim
.
We have a strong doctrinalfoundation, right.
(34:09):
We have strong convictions,right.
Most of which most of us, thevast majority of which, the vast
majority of us do not disagreeabout, like justification and
the resurrection and eschatologyand all those things we don't
we tend not to disagree aboutthat.
(34:30):
We have strong doctrinalconvictions.
Now, if we just allow thosestrong doctrinal convictions to
play themselves out as theyshould in mission, what a
powerful thing that could be.
I'm curious.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
You've been a district leader now for a while,
mission as a pastor, but you'vealso served nationally too with
President Kishnick.
How many stories and you don'thave to get specific how many
stories of pastors, justeveryday faithful pastors, small
(35:03):
church, large church, whateversize church.
How many stories do you have ofpastors swerving from the
specifics of our doctrine whereyou have to, oh my goodness,
like we're falling off the railshere?
In my estimate, I don't thinkthere are many.
Maybe you hear way more than Ido, but I don't hear like robust
(35:27):
heresy from our pulpits in theLCFS.
I mean no, it's very, very,very infrequent.
So I think we should rejoice inthat right.
Speaker 3 (35:38):
It is rare.
You know, and I have thepleasure of serving here in
Texas.
One of the stories I love totell, if you'll indulge me in
this one, is sort of howLutheranism started in Texas,
the heart and what I would callthe heart and core of LCMS
Lutheranism in Texas.
It was 1854, and a group ofWendish people got together, 600
(36:05):
of them.
And who are the Wends?
Well, ethnically Slavic people,not Teutons like the Saxons
were, but ethnically Slavicpeople kind of in the
hinterlands between Germany andthe Slavic countries that
existed at the time decided thatthey were going to emigrate,
600 of them.
And same reason, essentially,as the Saxons they disagreed
(36:33):
with the, with the PrussianUnion.
They wanted to practice theirLutheran confessional faith.
As they understood it, 1854,they get on a ship called the
Ben Nevis he's from, I believeit was Amsterdam lands in
Galveston, texas, on December15th of 1854.
(36:58):
They walk about halfway acrossthe state to Surbin, texas,
which is near Austin.
So if you kind of know what thestate of Texas looks like, they
walked that far.
They lived in dugouts the firstwinter.
They had very little food.
They put up a little church.
(37:19):
First thing they did startedfour new congregations in
surrounding townscross-culturally.
Cross-culturally because thepeople in the surrounding towns
who needed to be reached wereGermans, not Wends, different
language, different culturalgroup, but they did this
(37:40):
cross-culturally.
So that was the first thingthey did About.
The second thing that they didwas there was a pastor, a
Lutheran pastor, who was not yetLCMS, he was confessional
Lutheran at Trinity LutheranChurch in downtown Houston,
heard about what the Wens weredoing in Lee County and he said
(38:01):
we got to get them over here tothe Houston area and then they
started four more congregations,right.
So these were people ofconviction.
They were people of strongconvictions.
They left their homelandbecause of those theological
convictions, number one andnumber two.
They left their homelandbecause they wanted to be
(38:24):
together and work together.
They wanted to be in community,conviction.
Community leading to, naturallyleading to the cause, the cause
to start new congregations, tospread the good news.
They couldn't help but do that.
They.
They had to do that and a partof the deal was with them.
(38:45):
73 of the 600 died on the wayover.
Can you imagine that?
No, 73 of their number, mostlyfrom cholera, uh, on ship.
So these were people for whomdeath was real and it was right
in front of them and that was alot for them and so their
(39:08):
convictions.
It really made a difference intheir Christian life.
The other story I love theirleader's name was John Killian,
so they had first built thislittle church in 1854.
In 1859, they dedicated the newSt Paul's Lutheran Church in
Serban and Killian preached thededication sermon in Wendish and
(39:33):
he looked out over the audienceand he said oh, there are some
German-speaking people here.
I better give a summary inGerman.
So he gave a summary in German.
Then he looked over out overthe audience and said oh, some
of these people here.
They only speak English, so Ibetter give a summary in English
.
So Wendish, german, english.
Killian was seeker sensitive,before that was even a term
(39:59):
Right.
And why?
Why?
Because the gospel is tooimportant, it's too important to
be proclaimed in a languagethat people don't understand.
It's too important.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
The gospel makes a difference.
Hey, such a great story, John,and really kind of explains the
confessional and missionalconviction and cause that the
Texas district has lived withstill to this day.
That story, the stories we tell, deeply matter.
I'm curious how did they raiseup their pastors to start these
churches?
Do you know?
Speaker 3 (40:32):
I don't know.
I don't know for sure, I'mcurious.
You know the?
Speaker 2 (40:35):
LCMS story is.
I mean, we had relied for sometime on Leah getting pastors
over from Germany, send themover.
And then we're like well, themission is too strong, right, we
got to start some organizationinstitutions, seminaries,
mentorship et cetera and raisethem up local.
A guy by the name of Ben didyou?
Speaker 3 (40:56):
Go ahead.
So a guy by the name of Ben,did you go ahead?
Yeah, I was going to say thereis certainly a history more
broadly in the LCMS of a varietyof ways of providing pastoral
formation.
You know, there were the notehelpers, the sendling, the coal
poor tours, all of whom weremore minimally trained, but but
they certainly provided pastoralcare because we recognized that
(41:20):
there was a mission needed.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
Yeah, we're going to be talking about Reverend Dr Ben
Mays, professor at ConcordiaTheological Seminary, fort Wayne
.
Did you read his most recentarticle on 16th 17th century
pastoral formation?
Speaker 3 (41:33):
I did, I did.
Speaker 2 (41:35):
It's quite fascinating in that some of the
pastors in rural, less educatedplaces, they didn't want them to
be overly educated.
Obviously, they need to haveclarity on the conviction and
the ability to proclaim thegospel, but it wasn't.
It wasn't a cookie cutter forevery pastor it was about it was
a lot about their context.
We need some who are going tobe the academics who are going
(41:57):
to help dig into the word of God.
But that wasn't, that wasn'tfor everyone.
It was very, very contextual.
And what he ends up, what heends up saying, what would it
look like today?
It's, he says, is basicallycompetency, contextual pastoral
education, with a combination ofthe academics, the scholars, in
partnership with other local,experienced pastors, raising up
(42:20):
the next generation of pastors.
And that's what I've beenexperiencing here and it's
wonderful.
And so, anyway, praying foropenness to that conversation
into the future, I know you areas well, john.
Go ahead.
Speaker 3 (42:32):
Yeah, well, and wouldn't it be great if we had?
You know, we talked about Acts,chapter 15.
Wouldn't it be great if we hada good conversation and a clear
conversation about that too.
There's a friend of mine whosaid who is fond of saying
sometimes we train, we'retraining PhDs to work at
7-Eleven, here in the, in theLCMS, and, you know, with
(42:54):
respect to the pastoralformation, respect to the
pastoral formation, and so, yeah, we have a lot of work to do, I
think, in coming to consensusabout what it is that we need.
Certainly Amen.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
Hey, let's talk about the Texas district coming down
the homestretch, what is thevision for growth there in Texas
?
I love the role of vision.
It inspires districts and itcan inspire other districts in
the LCMS.
Talk about that a little, John.
Speaker 3 (43:18):
Yeah, well, back in 2017, 2018, of course, 2017
being the 500th anniversary ofthe Lutheran Reformation we said
let's use that 500 number as abuilding block for the next
period of time in Texas districthistory.
And so we said 500 new leaderswe're looking for in 500 new
(43:42):
places by 2031, which is the125th anniversary of the Texas
district.
So that's what we're lookingfor.
And we said we can't depend onall of those leaders being
pastors, so we're going to haveto do something else.
And so we said let's look atwhat's going on in other
(44:08):
Lutheran churches, and we lookedespecially at the Makani Yesus
Lutheran Church in Ethiopia, thelargest Lutheran church in the
world.
I'm not sure what.
The last time I looked it was12 million members.
I think it's more than that nowand they have many more lay
evangelists in their midst thanthey have pastors.
And so we said, hey, we need tolearn something from them.
So we actually talked to thepresident of the Mekani Yezu
(44:30):
Church At that time it wasBurhanu Afga and we said, hey,
how do you do this and how doyou train these evangelists?
And he said hey, how do you dothis and how do you train these
evangelists?
And he said well, we just kindof do, which wasn't particularly
(44:50):
helpful, but we knew that weneeded to translate the idea of
evangelists, and then we sendthem into places where the
gospel does not yet exist,places where it's dark.
Evangelists can do all kinds ofthings they're not pastors and
they understand that they're notpastors, but they do share the
word in apartment complexes,schools and in businesses and
(45:14):
through works of mercy like food, banks and clothing, those
sorts of things, you know, andthey're doing a fantastic job
and they're absolutely on fire.
We have, at last count, we have38 evangelists and, at last
(45:39):
count, if I remember this right,140 of them are actually active
in ministry, if my memoryserves me correctly.
So that's really a wonderful,wonderful thing to do and,
frankly, it builds on one of thethings that our church body and
convention asked us to do In2016,.
The convention of the LutheranChurch, missouri Synod asked
(46:02):
districts to train lay people inevangelism, and so that's
precisely what we're doing withour evangelist process.
So, 500 new workers, 500 newplaces Some of them are pastors
with new church plants.
We planted somewhere between 40and 45 new congregations in the
last three years, which is afabulous, fabulous thing.
(46:23):
We're grateful for that.
And yet if we would multiplythat by 10, if we would have
planted 400 to 450 congregations, it wouldn't be matched to the
size of the harvest that we havehere in Texas.
Roughly 30 million or so peoplein the Texas district.
(46:44):
Roughly seven and a halfmillion of those people trust in
Jesus as their Savior.
Now I'm grateful for the sevenand a half million, praise God
for them.
The Holy Spirit lives in them.
But that leaves 22 and a halfmillion people that are lost,
and that's the sort of thingthat gets us up in the morning
(47:06):
ready to eat nails and dosomething about it.
That's why we say here in Texaswhat are we as district staff
trying to do?
We're trying to be catalysts fora mission movement.
Catalysts for a missionmovement.
What's a catalyst?
A catalyst is that third thingthat you add to a chemical
reaction and it releases energy,and so we try to bring
resources to the mission so thatwe're multiplying those leaders
(47:28):
and mission movement.
What's a mission movement?
I'm a simple guy, I like simpledefinitions.
It's when congregations plantcongregations, that plant
congregations and so on, andwhen disciples make disciples,
who make disciples, and so on.
That's a mission movement.
So we're very excited aboutthat.
(47:49):
By the grace of God, he'sblessed us and we pray that he
continues to do so.
Speaker 2 (47:55):
You've been to many LCMS conventions.
I've been to fewer, but I havebeen to the last three.
Wouldn't it be amazing if therewere resolutions toward
reaching more disciples and weactually put a number on growth
that we would aim toward andthen new churches that are going
to accommodate that growth?
(48:16):
I feel like there's beenopportunity for a uniting vision
for us that will balance ourconfession and our conviction
and then the cause in communityand convention coming together
to say this is this and thenwe're going to work, because if
you don't have that vision, thenthe means toward that end are
not.
You're going to fight over themeans.
(48:36):
No, let's get.
Fight over the means, no, let'sget, let's get united on the
ends and then we can have therobust debate about the means
toward that end in terms ofleadership, development,
discipleship, what all thethings that need to be discussed
.
But I feel like, because we'vehad a very little conversation
about long range, because theMakana Yesu movement, they've
got strong aims toward reachingmillions and millions of people
(48:59):
by x date.
Why do you think we'rereluctant to put that kind of
line in the sand, I think, as asynod, and say we got to go
there and then we're going totrust.
Hey, in your district it'sgoing to look different, but
we're aiming there it.
The texas district is verydifferent.
The psd district is different.
Maricopa County has a thousandpeople coming into our county
every single week, john.
(49:20):
One thousand.
So within two weeks that's thesize of my congregation.
Two weeks coming into my county.
How are we reaching mission?
There has to be more trust asthat vision gets lived out in
our respective districts.
But I don't see the nationalvision lying in the sand.
And this is not againstPresident Harrison, this is kind
of an indictment or aninvitation to the wider church.
(49:41):
Let's write resolutions towardthese missional ends with the
conviction of justification bygrace, through faith.
Any thought about why we'rereluctant there, john?
Speaker 3 (49:50):
Well, you know, have you ever noticed basketball is
more fun when you have hoops youkeep score, man, you know, yeah
, I mean, how else do you know?
you know if you're playing thegame?
You know, how else do you knowwhether you're, whether you're,
uh, whether you're winning?
You know what, what's going on?
Basketball is so much more funwhen you have hoops.
(50:12):
Um, and and, uh.
So now, by no means, by settinggoals, are we trying to program
the holy spirit?
No, come on.
Yeah, yeah, and, and.
So let let's, let's, get rid ofthat argument right away.
Um, we are saying, we believethis is what god is leading us
(50:33):
to do, and, and, and, and.
It gives us a method ofplanning.
And, believe me, have me onanother time.
I've got a whole speech on firstarticle gifts and how to use
first article gifts and whywe're sometimes reluctant to use
first article gifts.
Some of the planning tools thatare out there and measurable
(50:57):
objectives, they're just firstarticle gifts.
What do we confess in the firstarticle of the Creed?
I believe that God made me andall creatures that he has given
me my body and soul, eyes, earsand all my members, my what, my
reason and all my senses.
My reason and senses are giftsfrom God and they are to be
(51:19):
stewarded for the sake of thekingdom.
So why wouldn't we, as anearthly activity, as an earthly
objective, not trying to programGod, not trying to program the
Holy Spirit?
Why wouldn't we set goals?
Why wouldn't we say we're goingto try to train 500 more
leaders, we're going to try tospread the gospel, we're going
to try to reach this many people?
(51:41):
It's up to God.
We're not taking credit foranything.
The Holy Spirit is the one whomakes believers out of people.
The Holy Spirit is the one whoconverts people, and if they're
converted, it's because he'sdone so through the means of
grace.
We're just trying to programour own activity and we need
those sorts of things.
We need, you know, if we'replaying basketball, we need
(52:03):
hoops, and if we're in thechurch, we need goals.
And why wouldn't we have them?
Speaker 2 (52:07):
It makes perfect sense, amen, hey, last question
what do you pray the LCMS lookslike in 2050?
What do you pray?
We advance, and what do youpray we avoid?
John frame it up that way.
Speaker 3 (52:20):
Well, you know, I hope, I would hope and pray that
what we are in 25 years is achurch body that continues to be
convicted, that continues to beconfessional, that continues to
be fully scriptural, where thatreally matters, where the truth
(52:41):
of Holy Scripture reallymatters so much so that we
actually do live it out inmission that we can't help that
Christ's love for us compels usto be about the message of
reconciliation.
And especially, I hope that wedo it together, in conversation
with one another, with a greatdeal of respect for one another
(53:06):
and one another's opinions andone another's giftedness.
That's what I would like to seethe LCMS become in the days
ahead and in the decades ahead.
Speaker 2 (53:16):
Amen, John.
What a joy to be with you.
If people want to connect withyou and your ministry, how can
they do so?
Speaker 3 (53:21):
Yeah, just email me.
My email address is on theTexas District's website, but
otherwise you have to figure outhow to type johnbrownersreuter,
which can be a little bit of achallenge.
But it's johnbrownersreuter attx like Texas lcmsorg.
You can look on the TexasDistrict website and find my
(53:43):
email address.
Speaker 2 (53:44):
This was a really, really fun conversation.
Listener, please like,subscribe, comment.
If you've got a diverseperspective on what we've said,
we would love to get you on thispodcast to discuss that, that
perspective.
But I think this has beenscriptural, it's it's in the
book of concord.
(54:04):
It's a part of our story in thelcms, uh, and and we're just
trying to to work it out now inour, in our context, which are
very, very diverse in the lcms,and I think that's one of our
biggest struggles is contextualhospitality for the diverse
places that we have in ourchurch body right now.
But I think we can all agree weneed to be convicted around our
(54:27):
common confession and thatconfession always moves us
toward the cause of advancingthe gospel.
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
Thanks so much, john, thank you.
Speaker 1 (54:35):
You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the
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(54:57):
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This is Lead Time.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Welcome to Lead Time.
Tim Allman here, Jack Calvertstill on vacation.
It's a great day to be alive.
Pray.
The joy of Jesus is with you asyou lean into a wonderful, fun
conversation today with ReverendDr John Browners Reuter.
He's been on with me before.
I think he was on the AmericanReformation podcast a while back
, or maybe it was Lead Time.
I don't know.
I think he was on the AmericanReformation podcast a while back
(00:25):
, or maybe it was lead time, Idon't know.
You could go back in thearchives and listen to that one.
But today we're going to betalking about a presentation
that John gave to circuitpastors at circuit meetings in
the Texas district.
He is currently the director ofdistrict-wide strategy for the
Texas district of the LCMS.
In addition, he serves asmission strategist for the
greater Houston metropolitanarea of the Texas district.
He received his MDiv fromConcordia Seminary, St Louis
(00:48):
1989.
Doctor of the Ministry fromRegent University in 2019.
And this is the bio that hesent me.
He has a stunningly beautifulwife, Rachel.
You married up just like I did,John, Fair enough, and they are
the parents of now.
How do I say Adah?
Am I saying that?
Speaker 3 (01:07):
right, yeah, andy, and his wife's name is Adah Adah
.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Okay, and Aaron, who is married to also a pastor,
aaron LaHue.
Is that right?
That's right, lahue?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And grandparents to Jax.
He got three grandkids Jax,judah and Ray Lynn.
How are you doing today, john?
Thanks so much for hanging out,I'm great.
Thanks for having me.
This is going to be great.
So the title of yourpresentation Conviction Cause.
Community Mission in the TexasDistrict.
(01:34):
Let's start there.
Talk to us about how youconnect confessional as
synonymous with conviction andmissional as synonymous with
cause.
What a joy to be with you, john, and missional as synonymous
with cause.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
What a joy to be with you, john.
Yeah, it's great to be here,and you know the word conviction
.
I like the word convictionbecause I think it implies a
connection between what's goingon in our heads and what's going
on in our hearts, between thecognitive and the affective
domains.
It's knowledge that actuallymeans something to us and moves
(02:06):
us to action.
And as Lutheran Christians, wehave convictions.
We have convictions that arebased on the truth of Holy
Scripture.
We're sola scriptura people,we're people of the Bible, and
we have convictions that arebased on the Lutheran
confessions to which wesubscribe.
(02:27):
So those are our convictions.
We have confessionalconvictions, we have doctrinal
convictions based on HolyScripture and Lutheran
confessions, and then we have acause.
I think, that arises out of ourconvictions, and it's a
missional cause.
We have reason to want tospread what it is that we
(02:51):
believe to the world, to peoplewho do not yet know about Jesus,
and I think that you know.
Sometimes we get that question,you know, or we pose it to
ourselves, you know, are youmissional or are you
confessional?
Which one are you?
And you know, or we pose it toourselves, you know, are you
missional or are youconfessional?
Which?
Which one are you?
And, and you know, if you'relike most people, you say, well,
I'm both right.
You know, cause, we kind ofknow that's the right answer
(03:14):
both Um or or.
We put it on a continuum, youknow, as if you know you got
confessional on this end of thecontinuum and you got missional
on this end of the continuum.
Now, where are you on thiscontinuum?
And you know, some people willsay, well, I'm right in the
middle.
You know, because thatindicates I'm both confessional.
(03:35):
And we have this saying inTexas.
You know, the only thing that'sin the middle of the road is
yellow stripes and deadarmadillos, you know.
So you know, I think thatthere's a better model than that
.
I think there's a better model.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Well, so let's talk about that Instead of using kind
of the metaphor of the middleand then right and left, which
does go down the political line,to be sure.
And I've been making theargument that we're going right
down the exact same politicaldivisive line today by
bifurcating confessional andmissional, turning what should
be a verb into a noun theconfessionals and the missionals
(04:13):
.
It's just not helpful.
So what's a better metaphor forus, john?
Rather than being down themiddle.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Yeah, and I'm going to put forth a little model.
But there was a Britishstatistician by the name of
George EP Box.
Isn't that a great name, by theway, george EP Box?
And maybe just because my lastname has 15 letters in it, I'm
enamored with people that havethree in their last names.
But he said all models arewrong but some are useful.
(04:41):
All models are wrong but someare useful.
So, with that caveat in mind, Iwould say I believe that there
is a reciprocal and reinforcingrelationship between being
confessional and being missional, a reciprocal and reinforcing
relationship.
And so you know, if you want toimagine this graphically,
(05:06):
imagine, you know, the wordconviction or confessional at
the top of a little graph and anarrow pointing down to
missional or cause, and then anarrow pointing up from missional
and cause back to confessionalagain.
I think that they arereciprocal and I think that they
reinforce one another.
And this is what I mean.
(05:27):
I mean, let's take an exampleof a confessional doctrine.
Let's pick out, let's say,article 4 of the Augsburg
Confession, which is aboutjustification, right?
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Yeah, obviously it's the biggest one.
It's what we've kind of hungour hat on.
Right.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
We've said you know, we have our head on which the
church rises to falls.
Yeah, yeah, exactly this is thedoctrine upon which the church
stands or falls.
You know, this is really animportant doctrine.
We are saved by grace, throughfaith, entirely by the merit of
jesus christ, and not because ofwhat we have done are we
(06:05):
guaranteed eternal life, which I, you know.
I just have to stop at thispoint and say you know, number
one, that's true, and number two, that's really good news.
Is it nice news?
It's the best you know.
Know, it's fantastic.
Who wouldn't want paradiseforever and have it be free?
(06:31):
It's free.
You don't have to earn it, youdon't have to deserve it.
And now that you got it, youdon't got to prove it Not to God
, not to God.
The proof lies in the cross ofJesus Christ.
It's wonderful news, it's greatnews.
That's a doctrine, and I want tosay we should get our doctrine
(06:52):
right.
Yeah, we should, and I want toget, for instance, that doctrine
.
I want to be sure that it'sright, that it is pure.
We should get it right.
But my point is is thatdoctrine has missional
implications?
Okay, so, first of all, it hasan implication for my life and
(07:14):
yours.
I mean, by the grace of God, Iam on my way to heaven forever
instead of hell forever.
That's great news.
But the fact of the matter isthat doctrine which we believe
in, which we believe, teach andconfess that we are determined
(07:35):
in this church body to get rightand we should has implications
for everyone, everyone foreveryone.
Everyone.
Everyone has an eternity tospend someplace and that
(08:00):
doctrine says without Jesus,without the grace of God, it's
hell forever.
Our doctrine reinforces ourmission and that's true.
You can pick out any doctrine,any doctrine that we have, any
doctrine that we work so hard toget right and we should work
hard to get it right.
They all have missionalimplications, missional
(08:31):
implications.
And if we are missional, if weare truly missional, we ought to
be concerned about what thetrue doctrine is, because
otherwise, what am I missionalfor?
I mean, if I don't have somepassion about something, if I
don't believe something stronglyabout something, if I don't
believe something strongly, youknow, you know then why do this?
It's too hard, I don't know ifwe have it right anyway, let the
(08:52):
Baptist do it.
So if I don't, if I, if I don'thave some convictions, why be
involved in the cause?
That's right.
And if I and if I do haveconvictions, I can't help but be
involved.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
John, how did we arrive at this place where we
all I mean who would listen towhat you just said in our church
body and say you know whatthat's all wet?
I mean, if you read the Bible,and here's what I mean shout out
to Paul Robby, are we readingthe Bible?
It's very clear that God is ona mission and that mission
includes the entire world, well,no, the entire cosmos.
(09:28):
Romans, chapter eight, which isgroaning for restoration.
Right, everything has been hurtand there's a day that is
quickly approaching, when Jesusis returning to gather all of
his kids, that there's going tobe a day of the separation
between the sheep and the goats,the wheat and the shafts, you
know, those who believe in,those who do not believe, and if
we believe there's going to bea separation, people outside of
the presence of Jesus.
(09:48):
Shouldn't that give us greatconviction, clarity around who
Jesus is, what he's done, whatthe word says, what it means to
be a part of the church,obviously, justification by
grace, through faith, and thenthat cause to make him known.
This is the cruciform life ofJesus.
As I have done so, will you dothrough the cross to new life
(10:10):
Like I don't?
I don't, maybe you're more of ahistorian.
I don't get how.
And I do understand why,because we have the battle over
the Bible, we have Seminacs, wehave some of these wounds.
We've just not processed a lotof our struggles.
I mean, I think that's the nearthe more recent why.
And then we have maybe thewounds of the church growth
movement and how some think thatin the contemporary spaces
(10:31):
you've compromised some teaching, which we're doing better work
right now, I think, to writebetter songs for the church that
are, yes, in a modern,contemporary space, but very
Jesus-centered, very Doctrine ofJustification by Grace Through
Faith-centered, veryJesus-centered, very doctrine of
justification by grace throughfaith centered, very narrative
centered.
The bell is being rung rightnow, if you can't hear it,
chapel is happening right hereat Christ Greenfield.
(10:52):
Anyhow, those are some of thehistorical reasons.
But who in our church bodywould deny this kind of clarity,
this reciprocal relationshipbetween conviction and cause?
I'm left kind of curious aboutit, john, your take.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
Well, you know, I think that we all have
predilections.
I think we have things thatmake us comfortable.
All right, and you know some ofus, you know, and that's why I
think we need to apply thesewords, you know, this idea of a
reciprocal relationship toourselves.
I have to apply it to myself.
What makes me more comfortable?
(11:25):
Am I more comfortable studyingtheology and getting it right
and sort of being polemic, or amI one of those people that
really has a heart for outreachand mission?
And wow, that's the thing thatI really want to do?
I think we all need to remembertime is short and hell is hot,
(11:48):
you know, and we have somethings that we have convictions
about and so, hey, let's dosomething about it.
And you know, this is biblical,you know, and it's directly
biblical.
The one passage from Scripturethat I think is just so clear is
first timothy, chapter 4.
Uh, starting with verse 16, stpaul writes to timothy watch
(12:10):
your life and your doctrineclosely.
And I mean, is that not a clearpacket passage?
Okay, your life and yourdoctrine, all right.
So this is not, you know.
Oh, let's get doctrineright-ish, you know?
No, this is get it all right.
You know, get it all right,watch your life and your
(12:33):
doctrine closely.
But then he very quickly addsthe second part of that If you
do what, you will save yourselfand your hearers.
You will save yourself and yourhearers.
See, see, there there is amissional purpose for
correctness in doctrine there'sa missional purpose.
(12:54):
Um, how about?
How about saint paul to thecorinthians?
Uh, fifth chapter, uh, the loveof christ compels us.
And then you know, that chapteris about the ministry of
reconciliation.
Of course that's the the topic.
But he talks about the love ofchrist compels us.
Now I get a little wonky on youhere.
(13:15):
Uh, you know so.
So for the greek scholars outthere, um, uh, yeah, is that a
subjective or an objectivegenitive?
All right.
So the question is is how doyou translate it?
Is it our love for Christ thatcompels us, or is it Christ's
love for us that compels?
Speaker 2 (13:35):
us.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
I think that the context clearly indicates and
the verse kind of works eitherway, but I think the context
clearly indicates it's asubjective genitive.
It's that Christ's love, thatwonderful doctrine of
(13:56):
justification by grace throughfaith and all of the articles of
the faith that go along with it, all right, compels us to a
message of reconciliation.
You know, if I'm saved by gracethrough faith and, for instance
, if I believe that baptism is ameans of grace that should be
applied to babies, to children,that the Holy Spirit can work
(14:21):
faith in the life of an infantthrough baptism, you know I'm
kind of passionate for that.
I want people to understandthat I am delighted when people
come to faith in Jesus Christ,in whatever theological
tradition they come into it.
That's a good thing, right.
(14:41):
But you know what I believe.
We got the truth here and I'dreally rather have people
believe what I believe is thefullness of the truth.
Yeah, when people come to theLord's Supper, I want them to
understand hey, you are reallyand truly receiving the body and
blood of Jesus in with andunder the bread and wine for
(15:03):
your forgiveness, life andsalvation.
I want people to understand that.
I don't want them to be in aplace where that isn't taught.
I want them to have the full.
There are missionalimplications for the doctrines
that we believe, Not to mentionthe fact that Luke says in
chapter 19, the Son of man cameto seek and to save the lost.
(15:25):
The Missio Dei itself, themission of God itself, is a
doctrine.
The Great Commission itself isa doctrine.
So if we're going to bedoctrinally pure, let's be pure
about all the doctrine, whichincludes the mission of God,
which includes the GreatCommission.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
I think it's good, john.
So let me try this on Do youthink in our church body there's
been a misunderstanding of andI don't like the right or left,
but maybe the bent you could useright or left hand hemisphere
of the brain and gifting toward,because Paul is very clear
Ephesians, chapter 4, that hegave.
(16:05):
I think there's one office butthen there's multiple kind of
functions in that office Apostle, prophet, evangelist, preacher,
teacher, lot of time, just tomake a point in my office, doing
deep exegetical work for thefocus of 15 to 25 minute message
(16:30):
, and I need to spend the 15minute work, or I'm working on
my PhD toward one part of thedoctrine within the church and
this is going to be a blessing,like my day is not spent as much
as some people who are theextroverts, the missional
oriented, the new starters, theentrepreneurs out there, and
those, those two different typesof groups, those that are out
(16:52):
there, I would say theevangelist, um, and for those
that are the teacher, moreinternal, we just talk right
past each other.
We don't have room to love andcare and respect one another
based on our, based on our bent,if we could say you know what
evangelists I need, you, I'mbetter because you are out there
sharing the gospel consistently, bringing people to a saving
(17:12):
knowledge, bringing them,incorporating them into the life
of the church.
But I'm more discipleship bentrather than outreach bent.
Right, is there something there?
I think there is, and some ofmy research has been on the
personalities of thosebehavioral sets of those that
are pastors in the church.
Most of them are, I would say,imbalanced.
(17:33):
This is not bad, but there's amajority of us that are more
imbalanced toward discipleship,anonymous, with that is
conviction around our doctrines,rather than maybe aggressively
and I use aggressive in ageneral sense or or dynamically
imbalanced toward, towardmission and evangelism.
We've just like talked rightand when there's the water's
(17:55):
warm, there's room for everybodyin this, in this place, from
apostle all the way to preacherand teacher, evangelist and
prophet.
Anything more to say there,john, is that is that a fair
take?
Speaker 3 (18:03):
Yeah, well, and that's why I said before, I
think that we need to apply thisidea of conviction and
community to ourselves.
I have to apply it to myselfand think about okay, where am I
more comfortable?
Right.
And if I'm a person who iscomfortable getting the
(18:24):
convictions correct which is theright thing to do, by the way,
I want to reinforce it.
Getting the doctrine correct isright.
There's nothing in the Biblethat says otherwise.
If that's what I'm morecomfortable with, then I have to
kind of apply this to myselfand say, yeah, but my
convictions, they ought to bemoving me to mission, because if
(18:47):
I really believe what I say, Ibelieve there are missional
implications.
And if, on the other hand, ifI'm the missional guy who's all
about, you know, who has thispassion for people, who wants to
be sure that people go toheaven forever, you know I want
to be out there with people.
You know I'm not the sort ofguy who wants to sit in my
office and study very much.
(19:07):
I better be saying to myselfyeah, but what am I saying?
Amen, right, do I?
Do I have this right or wrong?
And see, that's why I thinkthat you know the.
The title of my littlepresentation, tim, was
Conviction, cause and Community,and I think it's that third C
(19:28):
that is, that is vitallyimportant.
And you know, for this I wouldgo, you know, and I'm sure that
you were up reading the handbookof last night before you before
you went to bed, as you'reintegrating I, I know all your
and everybody who's listening tothis podcast does too.
I'm sure, sure, but there arereally some gems in there,
particularly in the Constitution.
I love the preamble to theConstitution of the Lutheran
(19:52):
Church, missouri Synod.
The preamble to theConstitution is entitled Reasons
for the Formation of aSynodical Union and there are
two of them given.
And I wonder, you know, justI'll pause here for a minute and
I just wonder if the listenersto this podcast know what the
reasons are for the formation ofa synodical union.
(20:12):
But but they are there.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
I do.
I do Because I'm, because I'vehung out with you.
John, thank you for turning meon.
And I have read, and I haveread the handbook.
So, nonetheless, but not everynight, just yeah night.
All right, give it to us.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
Yeah.
So the first one is the exampleof the apostolic church in Acts
, chapter 15, which, of course.
What is that?
It's the Jerusalem council,right?
It's the first churchconvention, and what was the
problem there?
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Deep debate.
What do the Gentiles got to doto be brought in?
And there was, after muchdiscussion, debate.
Like the people have somestrong opinions here.
They united on a certainperspective, but they had a long
time discussing their variousopinions about what the Gentiles
had to do.
Say more about that, John.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
Yeah, you know.
And you know, it strikes methat the church first church
convention was convened around amission problem.
Yeah, it was a mission problem.
All these Gentiles are comingto the faith.
What are we going to do withthem?
Do they have to follow all theJewish laws or not?
And you know what?
The missional people talked tothe doctrinal people and the
(21:18):
doctrinal people talked to themissional people and everybody
had their say and they came to aconsensus around what it was
that needed to be done.
So the example of that that'swhat we are meant to be in the
Lutheran Church Missouri Synod.
(21:38):
We are meant to be in theLutheran Church Missouri Synod.
You know it wasn't one grouplording it over the other group
or forcing the other group, youknow, to do what they thought
was right.
It was enough of a discussionaround an important,
controverted issue that theywere able to come to a consensus
.
And that's what we're supposedto be in the Lutheran Church
(22:01):
Missouri Synod.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Well, I think there's great help in understanding
what they actually said in Acts,chapter 15, because they said
that they shouldn't do anythingexternal to prove themselves as
righteous.
So circumcision, no, but, and Ithink there's two kinds of
righteousness is seen here.
So we are passively broughtinto faith, but then don't eat
(22:25):
meat, the sacrifice, don't doanything like horizontally that,
and Paul doubles down on this.
So this is the convictionaround hey, no sexual immorality
.
There's a new way that we areliving here as we give witness
out into the world and stand onour conviction of, by grace,
through faith, passivelyreceived, through the work and
merit of of Christ.
(22:45):
Anything more to say about,because there was, there was
consensus and both, both sides,kind of say I can see it and I
can see this side, and we'restill preserving a new way of
being in our community.
We're convicted around our, ourdoctrines, namely what our
witness looks like to theoutside world.
John, take that.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
Well, you know, and I would love it if, in our church
body, we actually had thosekinds of discussions that
brought us together, because,you know, around whatever the
controverted issue might be,god's word is powerful.
The Holy Spirit is powerful, heworks in the hearts and minds
of people, and you know thesecond reason for the formation
(23:26):
of a synodical union, that thediversities of gifts might be
for the common profit.
And 1 Corinthians 12 is thepassage that's mentioned there,
which is the parts of the bodyof Christ, all of which are
vital, all of which areabsolutely vital.
And one of those types ofdiversity is diversity of
(23:53):
opinion.
And so when I see somethingdifferently from the way you see
it, you know what we need totalk with each other about that,
because the same spirit livesin me, you, that that lives in
me, all right.
So so it's, it's important forus to discuss those, amen.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Amen.
So where is this cause?
Conviction, interplay,reciprocal relationship seen in
the Book of Concord.
Speaker 3 (24:18):
Interplay reciprocal relationship seen in the Book of
Concord, john.
Yeah, well, and I love this, apart of the preface to the Book
of Concord.
Why was the Book of Concord puttogether?
Well, it's listed in thepreface, all right, and I love
this particular paragraph fromthe Book of Concord.
They write we have desired todirect and earnestly exhort our
(24:42):
churches and schools first ofall to the Holy Scripture and
the creeds and then to theaforementioned Augsburg
Confession, in order thatespecially the youth who are
being trained for service in thechurch and for the holy
ministry may be instructedfaithfully and diligently so
that among our descendants thepure teaching and confession and
(25:07):
confession of the faith may bekept and spread.
There you go, through the helpand assistance of the holy
spirit.
Isn't that amazing that?
That's it Amazing, yeah, soit's not a doctrine to be kept
just for the sake of beingdoctrine.
This doctrine is there and itis to be spread.
(25:29):
And you know this is reallyconsistent also, I think, tim,
with what our church fathershave said, what Luther has said
on down the line.
Another quote for you here thisis from Walther's proper form of
a Lutheran congregation that hepresented to the Western
District I think it was 1862,one of his theses it is also
(25:53):
incumbent upon the congregationto do its part in building up
and promoting the welfare of thechurch at large.
And then he quotes a couple ofimportant Bible passages Amos 6,
6, acts 11, 21 to 23.
And then Walther goes into thisLuther quote.
Get this Luther quote.
This is amazing, you know,because we often think of the
(26:16):
time of Luther as being the timeof it was all about doctrine.
It was all about, yeah,everybody was Christian in some
way, shape or form.
Admission wasn't a thing andlet's just get the doctrine
right.
But this is what Luther said.
Luther Mark 16, 16,.
He that believeth and isbaptized shows that faith must
(26:37):
not remain concealed and hidden.
It will not do for each onehearing the gospel to go his own
way, to believe for himself andnot to confess his faith before
others.
No, it should be known and seenwhere the gospel is not only
preached but also believed andreceived.
That is where the church andChrist's kingdom is to be found
in the world.
For that purpose, christ bringsus together and holds us
(27:00):
together through the divine signof baptism.
Otherwise, if we remained apartand separate, without such an
external bond and sign,christendom could not be
extended and preserved.
Therefore, christ binds ustogether in this divine
community, the church, in orderthat the gospel be spread
(27:23):
farther and farther and othersbe brought into the fold through
our confession.
You asked the question beforehow did we get off onto this
thing where we're just abouttheology?
Well, it didn't come fromLuther, it didn't come from the
(27:49):
confessors, somehow somewhere,someplace along the line.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
We strayed from that, Another type of spirit, and I
feel like it's a spirit that'sputting us back under the weight
of the law and we should get itright.
But the reason we get it rightis for our homes and for our
communities, that all would besaved and come to a knowledge of
(28:12):
him.
We're walking through Markright now, john, through our
Lenten journey to the cross andempty tomb, and it's funny, you
mentioned Mark 16, 16.
That's in the extended versionof Mark, right?
I think the suspended endingtake on ending at verse eight is
quite fascinating for therhetorical reason of saying.
(28:33):
The women left with fear andgreat trembling and they told no
one anything, no words, becausethey were fearful.
Now we know the women actuallyended up telling the men what
they'd seen and heard.
But the rhetorical element ifyou end at the suspended ending
of verse 8, is for you as thehearer, who have simply heard
(28:54):
the word.
You haven't seen the risenJesus.
You've just heard the angelicproclamation.
What are you going to do withit?
Are you going to be faithfulwith it, carrying it to others
who are under the weight, thecrushing weight, of their sin,
locked up in the upper room oftheir heart wondering if God is
for them, if he loves them, andthen let them know Jesus is
breaking into that upper roomand saying peace be with you, I
(29:16):
love you, I forgive you, I'mbreathing my spirit upon you, oh
, and as a father has sent me,so I'm sending you.
Any, take on, like the firstevangelist, these women, having
heard the word, they carry theword back to the scared
disciples.
Any, take there, john, on Mark16, 8?
.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
Yeah, you know, and the thing is, the most important
historical event ever in theworld is the resurrection of
Jesus Christ, without questionthe most important historical
event in the world, and that's adoctrine, right, it's
resurrection, but it moved.
(29:55):
The conviction about that movedthose women to mission, it
absolutely moved those women tomission.
And without the resurrection,of course, st Paul said, our
faith is in vain, you're stillin your sins, and what
motivation is there?
But with the resurrection thereis such great motivation.
(30:19):
And you know, I just think thatthat you know it.
Just, it's just another exampleof this interplay between
conviction and and cause, amen.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
All right, you've done some work on balancing
confession and mission with thehistorian, the kind of church
historian, ed Stetzer.
Ed's been writing some, somework on theological pastoral
formation recently too.
Just read an article from himthat talks about actually the
seminaries, the academics, thosewho are convicted around the
doctrines of the church doingmore today and this is what our
(30:51):
prayer is actually, with both ofour seminaries doing more to
get closer to the context of thevariety of different types of
congregations that exist in theLCMS.
I'm praying for that, to besure.
So what is Stetzer'sperspective on the balance
between confession and mission?
John?
Speaker 3 (31:06):
Yeah, you know, when I give this presentation, what I
love to do is without revealingthat it's Ed Stetzer who says
this.
I like to ask the question whatcontemporary LCMS author wrote
these words?
Because these words sound likean LCMS guy writing them.
(31:30):
So I want to just read thislittle narrative.
This comes from Ed's work ViralChurches that he wrote several
years ago, and I just I thinkit's amazing.
He writes in 1910, churchleaders came together in
Edinburgh, scotland, under theslogan the evangelization of the
(31:50):
world in this generation.
That sounds like a great thing,doesn't?
Speaker 1 (31:54):
it.
It sounds awesome yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
Leaders of most major denominations were present to
discuss how they could worktogether to win the world to
Christ.
Ok, they assumed that everyonewho loves missions must also
love the Bible and be committedto it in a similar way.
Initially that was true, sodifferences in doctrine,
structure and polity wereintentionally set aside for the
(32:17):
purpose of helping each othersend out missionaries.
Unfortunately, the follow-upconferences ultimately steered a
different direction.
By 1928, the InternationalMissionary Council, which had
been founded because of the 1910meeting, questioned the need
for personal witness andincreasingly focused on service.
The 1938 InternationalMissionary Council meeting
(32:42):
questioned the need forconversion among devout
followers of other faiths.
Though much good has beenaccomplished through the
International Missionary Counciland its successors, the
historic lesson for many is thatmissions without a doctrinal
framework tend to lose thegospel's transformational power.
(33:03):
And here's the, once again, thekicker line is right at the end
.
No mission organization hasmaintained its focus on the
gospel without a strongdoctrinal foundation.
And so, in addition toeverything that Scripture has to
(33:23):
say about keeping our doctrinepure and it says it over and
over again St Paul said ifanyone should preach to you any
other doctrine than what Ipreached to you, let him be
accursed, or St John at the endof Revelation.
If anyone would add anything tothis book or take away from
this book, let all of theplagues that come from this book
(33:45):
fall on him.
It's all throughout Scripture.
But, as a practical matter, ifwe're going to be about the
mission, if we're going to beabout the mission, we must
maintain a strong doctrinalfoundation, and this is one of
the things that actually givesme hope for our church body, Tim
.
We have a strong doctrinalfoundation, right.
(34:09):
We have strong convictions,right.
Most of which most of us, thevast majority of which, the vast
majority of us do not disagreeabout, like justification and
the resurrection and eschatologyand all those things we don't
we tend not to disagree aboutthat.
(34:30):
We have strong doctrinalconvictions.
Now, if we just allow thosestrong doctrinal convictions to
play themselves out as theyshould in mission, what a
powerful thing that could be.
I'm curious.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
You've been a district leader now for a while,
mission as a pastor, but you'vealso served nationally too with
President Kishnick.
How many stories and you don'thave to get specific how many
stories of pastors, justeveryday faithful pastors, small
(35:03):
church, large church, whateversize church.
How many stories do you have ofpastors swerving from the
specifics of our doctrine whereyou have to, oh my goodness,
like we're falling off the railshere?
In my estimate, I don't thinkthere are many.
Maybe you hear way more than Ido, but I don't hear like robust
(35:27):
heresy from our pulpits in theLCFS.
I mean no, it's very, very,very infrequent.
So I think we should rejoice inthat right.
Speaker 3 (35:38):
It is rare.
You know, and I have thepleasure of serving here in
Texas.
One of the stories I love totell, if you'll indulge me in
this one, is sort of howLutheranism started in Texas,
the heart and what I would callthe heart and core of LCMS
Lutheranism in Texas.
It was 1854, and a group ofWendish people got together, 600
(36:05):
of them.
And who are the Wends?
Well, ethnically Slavic people,not Teutons like the Saxons
were, but ethnically Slavicpeople kind of in the
hinterlands between Germany andthe Slavic countries that
existed at the time decided thatthey were going to emigrate,
600 of them.
And same reason, essentially,as the Saxons they disagreed
(36:33):
with the, with the PrussianUnion.
They wanted to practice theirLutheran confessional faith.
As they understood it, 1854,they get on a ship called the
Ben Nevis he's from, I believeit was Amsterdam lands in
Galveston, texas, on December15th of 1854.
(36:58):
They walk about halfway acrossthe state to Surbin, texas,
which is near Austin.
So if you kind of know what thestate of Texas looks like, they
walked that far.
They lived in dugouts the firstwinter.
They had very little food.
They put up a little church.
(37:19):
First thing they did startedfour new congregations in
surrounding townscross-culturally.
Cross-culturally because thepeople in the surrounding towns
who needed to be reached wereGermans, not Wends, different
language, different culturalgroup, but they did this
(37:40):
cross-culturally.
So that was the first thingthey did About.
The second thing that they didwas there was a pastor, a
Lutheran pastor, who was not yetLCMS, he was confessional
Lutheran at Trinity LutheranChurch in downtown Houston,
heard about what the Wens weredoing in Lee County and he said
(38:01):
we got to get them over here tothe Houston area and then they
started four more congregations,right.
So these were people ofconviction.
They were people of strongconvictions.
They left their homelandbecause of those theological
convictions, number one andnumber two.
They left their homelandbecause they wanted to be
(38:24):
together and work together.
They wanted to be in community,conviction.
Community leading to, naturallyleading to the cause, the cause
to start new congregations, tospread the good news.
They couldn't help but do that.
They.
They had to do that and a partof the deal was with them.
(38:45):
73 of the 600 died on the wayover.
Can you imagine that?
No, 73 of their number, mostlyfrom cholera, uh, on ship.
So these were people for whomdeath was real and it was right
in front of them and that was alot for them and so their
(39:08):
convictions.
It really made a difference intheir Christian life.
The other story I love theirleader's name was John Killian,
so they had first built thislittle church in 1854.
In 1859, they dedicated the newSt Paul's Lutheran Church in
Serban and Killian preached thededication sermon in Wendish and
(39:33):
he looked out over the audienceand he said oh, there are some
German-speaking people here.
I better give a summary inGerman.
So he gave a summary in German.
Then he looked over out overthe audience and said oh, some
of these people here.
They only speak English, so Ibetter give a summary in English
.
So Wendish, german, english.
Killian was seeker sensitive,before that was even a term
(39:59):
Right.
And why?
Why?
Because the gospel is tooimportant, it's too important to
be proclaimed in a languagethat people don't understand.
It's too important.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
The gospel makes a difference.
Hey, such a great story, John,and really kind of explains the
confessional and missionalconviction and cause that the
Texas district has lived withstill to this day.
That story, the stories we tell, deeply matter.
I'm curious how did they raiseup their pastors to start these
churches?
Do you know?
Speaker 3 (40:32):
I don't know.
I don't know for sure, I'mcurious.
You know the?
Speaker 2 (40:35):
LCMS story is.
I mean, we had relied for sometime on Leah getting pastors
over from Germany, send themover.
And then we're like well, themission is too strong, right, we
got to start some organizationinstitutions, seminaries,
mentorship et cetera and raisethem up local.
A guy by the name of Ben didyou?
Speaker 3 (40:56):
Go ahead.
So a guy by the name of Ben,did you go ahead?
Yeah, I was going to say thereis certainly a history more
broadly in the LCMS of a varietyof ways of providing pastoral
formation.
You know, there were the notehelpers, the sendling, the coal
poor tours, all of whom weremore minimally trained, but but
they certainly provided pastoralcare because we recognized that
(41:20):
there was a mission needed.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
Yeah, we're going to be talking about Reverend Dr Ben
Mays, professor at ConcordiaTheological Seminary, fort Wayne
.
Did you read his most recentarticle on 16th 17th century
pastoral formation?
Speaker 3 (41:33):
I did, I did.
Speaker 2 (41:35):
It's quite fascinating in that some of the
pastors in rural, less educatedplaces, they didn't want them to
be overly educated.
Obviously, they need to haveclarity on the conviction and
the ability to proclaim thegospel, but it wasn't.
It wasn't a cookie cutter forevery pastor it was about it was
a lot about their context.
We need some who are going tobe the academics who are going
(41:57):
to help dig into the word of God.
But that wasn't, that wasn'tfor everyone.
It was very, very contextual.
And what he ends up, what heends up saying, what would it
look like today?
It's, he says, is basicallycompetency, contextual pastoral
education, with a combination ofthe academics, the scholars, in
partnership with other local,experienced pastors, raising up
(42:20):
the next generation of pastors.
And that's what I've beenexperiencing here and it's
wonderful.
And so, anyway, praying foropenness to that conversation
into the future, I know you areas well, john.
Go ahead.
Speaker 3 (42:32):
Yeah, well, and wouldn't it be great if we had?
You know, we talked about Acts,chapter 15.
Wouldn't it be great if we hada good conversation and a clear
conversation about that too.
There's a friend of mine whosaid who is fond of saying
sometimes we train, we'retraining PhDs to work at
7-Eleven, here in the, in theLCMS, and, you know, with
(42:54):
respect to the pastoralformation, respect to the
pastoral formation, and so, yeah, we have a lot of work to do, I
think, in coming to consensusabout what it is that we need.
Certainly Amen.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
Hey, let's talk about the Texas district coming down
the homestretch, what is thevision for growth there in Texas
?
I love the role of vision.
It inspires districts and itcan inspire other districts in
the LCMS.
Talk about that a little, John.
Speaker 3 (43:18):
Yeah, well, back in 2017, 2018, of course, 2017
being the 500th anniversary ofthe Lutheran Reformation we said
let's use that 500 number as abuilding block for the next
period of time in Texas districthistory.
And so we said 500 new leaderswe're looking for in 500 new
(43:42):
places by 2031, which is the125th anniversary of the Texas
district.
So that's what we're lookingfor.
And we said we can't depend onall of those leaders being
pastors, so we're going to haveto do something else.
And so we said let's look atwhat's going on in other
(44:08):
Lutheran churches, and we lookedespecially at the Makani Yesus
Lutheran Church in Ethiopia, thelargest Lutheran church in the
world.
I'm not sure what.
The last time I looked it was12 million members.
I think it's more than that nowand they have many more lay
evangelists in their midst thanthey have pastors.
And so we said, hey, we need tolearn something from them.
So we actually talked to thepresident of the Mekani Yezu
(44:30):
Church At that time it wasBurhanu Afga and we said, hey,
how do you do this and how doyou train these evangelists?
And he said hey, how do you dothis and how do you train these
evangelists?
And he said well, we just kindof do, which wasn't particularly
(44:50):
helpful, but we knew that weneeded to translate the idea of
evangelists, and then we sendthem into places where the
gospel does not yet exist,places where it's dark.
Evangelists can do all kinds ofthings they're not pastors and
they understand that they're notpastors, but they do share the
word in apartment complexes,schools and in businesses and
(45:14):
through works of mercy like food, banks and clothing, those
sorts of things, you know, andthey're doing a fantastic job
and they're absolutely on fire.
We have, at last count, we have38 evangelists and, at last
(45:39):
count, if I remember this right,140 of them are actually active
in ministry, if my memoryserves me correctly.
So that's really a wonderful,wonderful thing to do and,
frankly, it builds on one of thethings that our church body and
convention asked us to do In2016,.
The convention of the LutheranChurch, missouri Synod asked
(46:02):
districts to train lay people inevangelism, and so that's
precisely what we're doing withour evangelist process.
So, 500 new workers, 500 newplaces Some of them are pastors
with new church plants.
We planted somewhere between 40and 45 new congregations in the
last three years, which is afabulous, fabulous thing.
(46:23):
We're grateful for that.
And yet if we would multiplythat by 10, if we would have
planted 400 to 450 congregations, it wouldn't be matched to the
size of the harvest that we havehere in Texas.
Roughly 30 million or so peoplein the Texas district.
(46:44):
Roughly seven and a halfmillion of those people trust in
Jesus as their Savior.
Now I'm grateful for the sevenand a half million, praise God
for them.
The Holy Spirit lives in them.
But that leaves 22 and a halfmillion people that are lost,
and that's the sort of thingthat gets us up in the morning
(47:06):
ready to eat nails and dosomething about it.
That's why we say here in Texaswhat are we as district staff
trying to do?
We're trying to be catalysts fora mission movement.
Catalysts for a missionmovement.
What's a catalyst?
A catalyst is that third thingthat you add to a chemical
reaction and it releases energy,and so we try to bring
resources to the mission so thatwe're multiplying those leaders
(47:28):
and mission movement.
What's a mission movement?
I'm a simple guy, I like simpledefinitions.
It's when congregations plantcongregations, that plant
congregations and so on, andwhen disciples make disciples,
who make disciples, and so on.
That's a mission movement.
So we're very excited aboutthat.
(47:49):
By the grace of God, he'sblessed us and we pray that he
continues to do so.
Speaker 2 (47:55):
You've been to many LCMS conventions.
I've been to fewer, but I havebeen to the last three.
Wouldn't it be amazing if therewere resolutions toward
reaching more disciples and weactually put a number on growth
that we would aim toward andthen new churches that are going
to accommodate that growth?
(48:16):
I feel like there's beenopportunity for a uniting vision
for us that will balance ourconfession and our conviction
and then the cause in communityand convention coming together
to say this is this and thenwe're going to work, because if
you don't have that vision, thenthe means toward that end are
not.
You're going to fight over themeans.
(48:36):
No, let's get.
Fight over the means, no, let'sget, let's get united on the
ends and then we can have therobust debate about the means
toward that end in terms ofleadership, development,
discipleship, what all thethings that need to be discussed
.
But I feel like, because we'vehad a very little conversation
about long range, because theMakana Yesu movement, they've
got strong aims toward reachingmillions and millions of people
(48:59):
by x date.
Why do you think we'rereluctant to put that kind of
line in the sand, I think, as asynod, and say we got to go
there and then we're going totrust.
Hey, in your district it'sgoing to look different, but
we're aiming there it.
The texas district is verydifferent.
The psd district is different.
Maricopa County has a thousandpeople coming into our county
every single week, john.
(49:20):
One thousand.
So within two weeks that's thesize of my congregation.
Two weeks coming into my county.
How are we reaching mission?
There has to be more trust asthat vision gets lived out in
our respective districts.
But I don't see the nationalvision lying in the sand.
And this is not againstPresident Harrison, this is kind
of an indictment or aninvitation to the wider church.
(49:41):
Let's write resolutions towardthese missional ends with the
conviction of justification bygrace, through faith.
Any thought about why we'rereluctant there, john?
Speaker 3 (49:50):
Well, you know, have you ever noticed basketball is
more fun when you have hoops youkeep score, man, you know, yeah
, I mean, how else do you know?
you know if you're playing thegame?
You know, how else do you knowwhether you're, whether you're,
uh, whether you're winning?
You know what, what's going on?
Basketball is so much more funwhen you have hoops.
(50:12):
Um, and and, uh.
So now, by no means, by settinggoals, are we trying to program
the holy spirit?
No, come on.
Yeah, yeah, and, and.
So let let's, let's, get rid ofthat argument right away.
Um, we are saying, we believethis is what god is leading us
(50:33):
to do, and, and, and, and.
It gives us a method ofplanning.
And, believe me, have me onanother time.
I've got a whole speech on firstarticle gifts and how to use
first article gifts and whywe're sometimes reluctant to use
first article gifts.
Some of the planning tools thatare out there and measurable
(50:57):
objectives, they're just firstarticle gifts.
What do we confess in the firstarticle of the Creed?
I believe that God made me andall creatures that he has given
me my body and soul, eyes, earsand all my members, my what, my
reason and all my senses.
My reason and senses are giftsfrom God and they are to be
(51:19):
stewarded for the sake of thekingdom.
So why wouldn't we, as anearthly activity, as an earthly
objective, not trying to programGod, not trying to program the
Holy Spirit?
Why wouldn't we set goals?
Why wouldn't we say we're goingto try to train 500 more
leaders, we're going to try tospread the gospel, we're going
to try to reach this many people?
(51:41):
It's up to God.
We're not taking credit foranything.
The Holy Spirit is the one whomakes believers out of people.
The Holy Spirit is the one whoconverts people, and if they're
converted, it's because he'sdone so through the means of
grace.
We're just trying to programour own activity and we need
those sorts of things.
We need, you know, if we'replaying basketball, we need
(52:03):
hoops, and if we're in thechurch, we need goals.
And why wouldn't we have them?
Speaker 2 (52:07):
It makes perfect sense, amen, hey, last question
what do you pray the LCMS lookslike in 2050?
What do you pray?
We advance, and what do youpray we avoid?
John frame it up that way.
Speaker 3 (52:20):
Well, you know, I hope, I would hope and pray that
what we are in 25 years is achurch body that continues to be
convicted, that continues to beconfessional, that continues to
be fully scriptural, where thatreally matters, where the truth
(52:41):
of Holy Scripture reallymatters so much so that we
actually do live it out inmission that we can't help that
Christ's love for us compels usto be about the message of
reconciliation.
And especially, I hope that wedo it together, in conversation
with one another, with a greatdeal of respect for one another
(53:06):
and one another's opinions andone another's giftedness.
That's what I would like to seethe LCMS become in the days
ahead and in the decades ahead.
Speaker 2 (53:16):
Amen, John.
What a joy to be with you.
If people want to connect withyou and your ministry, how can
they do so?
Speaker 3 (53:21):
Yeah, just email me.
My email address is on theTexas District's website, but
otherwise you have to figure outhow to type johnbrownersreuter,
which can be a little bit of achallenge.
But it's johnbrownersreuter attx like Texas lcmsorg.
You can look on the TexasDistrict website and find my
(53:43):
email address.
Speaker 2 (53:44):
This was a really, really fun conversation.
Listener, please like,subscribe, comment.
If you've got a diverseperspective on what we've said,
we would love to get you on thispodcast to discuss that, that
perspective.
But I think this has beenscriptural, it's it's in the
book of concord.
(54:04):
It's a part of our story in thelcms, uh, and and we're just
trying to to work it out now inour, in our context, which are
very, very diverse in the lcms,and I think that's one of our
biggest struggles is contextualhospitality for the diverse
places that we have in ourchurch body right now.
But I think we can all agree weneed to be convicted around our
(54:27):
common confession and thatconfession always moves us
toward the cause of advancingthe gospel.
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
Thanks so much, john, thank you.
Speaker 1 (54:35):
You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the
Unite Leadership Collective.
The ULC's mission is tocollaborate with the local
church to discover, develop anddeploy leaders through biblical
Lutheran doctrine and innovativemethods To partner with us in
this gospel message.
Subscribe to our channel, thengo to theuniteleadershiporg to
create your free login forexclusive material and resources
(54:57):
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.
Thanks for listening and staytuned for next week's episode.
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