February 11, 2025 • 25 mins
This episode dives deep into the importance of multiplication over mere growth in church leadership. We explore humility as a foundational quality for leaders, the biblical basis for raising up other leaders, and practical steps for cultivating a culture of discipleship.
• Emphasizing humility as a key trait for effective leaders
• Understanding multiplication versus addition in church growth
• Learning from Jesus and Paul’s models of leadership development
• Encouraging a shift from a pastor-centric model to community-based models
• Highlighting the importance of discipleship as a holistic apprenticeship
• Providing actionable steps towards fostering a culture of multiplication
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is Lead Time.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Welcome to Lead Time, tim Allman, here with Jack
Kauberg.
This is going to be a shorterconversation today.
I think this will probably bereleased on a Friday, just the
next step for you on yourleadership journey.
A lot of these podcasts aregoing to be focused on, maybe,
best practices and clarifyingeven some of our language.
You know, jack, as you go on theleadership development journey,
(00:26):
as you start to become a churchthat is focused on maybe
building a hospitality cultureor learning new things like the
church engagement model, there'sone thing that is required on
this journey, and that ishumility, because there's never
an end to this.
I mean, there's always someone.
(00:47):
There's worthy rivals who areall around you within our
denomination, outside of ourdenomination, there's people
that are at a different placethan you are theologically, on
different points.
Anytime.
I'm focusing on gettingfeedback right, I never should
be surprised that someone has adifference of opinion or
(01:09):
amplified opinions around acertain topic, because the more
I know about a certain thing,that means the more I don't know
, and someone else is leaninginto another point of emphasis,
and I just have to have acurious heart, and we're gonna
lean into that curiosity today.
Any observations, though, tojust kind of maintaining
humility as we go on thisleadership development journey.
There's never there's.
(01:29):
The ceiling is very, very high,jack, as we continue to learn.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
Yes, it is very high, and I think you nailed a couple
things here.
I mean, first is there's alwaysmore to learn, right?
So we are on learning journeysand you know, even quoting good
old Martin Luther, he would sayit takes a hundred years to
become a good theologian, right?
So there's always opportunitiesfor us to learn and for our
(01:53):
audience to learn.
Everyone is constantly learning.
And then number two is there'salways an opportunity to be more
clear with our language.
It's very easy for messages toget confused.
Language is not always precise,it doesn't always mean the same
thing to different people, andso we're constantly trying to
monitor our language andunderstand.
Are we being as crystal clearas we possibly can when we're
(02:14):
trying to communicate aboutcertain topics?
So that kind of brings uptoday's topic that we're talking
about multiplication, right?
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (02:22):
that's right.
I had an email that was sentthat we're talking about
multiplication, right.
Yeah, that's right.
I had an email that was sent.
Maybe it was a text because Ithink it was in response to the
podcast I did on the line, apartner podcast and great Brian
Stecker doing a wonderful,wonderful job with that podcast,
welcoming a number of differentpeople with a variety of
different perspectives.
It was almost like a he wantsto be like Joe Rogan.
You know it was like almost athree-hour conversation, so
(02:50):
you'd think in three hours Iwould have been able to clarify
a term like multiply andleadership development leading
toward multiplying leaders.
The listener asked you throwaround multiply a lot.
Could you be more precise withwhat that means Over?
the next 10, 15 minutes we'llsee how long we go.
We want to give a kind of amasterclass deep dive.
When we use, in our context, inthe ULC, multiplication, we
(03:11):
mean this Jack, why don't youkick us off?
What do we mean when we talkmultiplication?
Speaker 3 (03:15):
Well, to start off, you know, obviously it's like
it's a mathematical term, right?
So some churches grow and otherchurches multiply, and when you
know, if you're a math nerd,like our buddy Trey who's got a
doctorate in mathematics andcurriculum design, right.
But if you draw a curve ofsomething that's on a growth
model, it's like a straight line, right, growth is linear, right
(03:39):
.
But multiplication means thatyou know, 10 becomes 20, 20
becomes 40, right, there's thisamplification that happens, and
so that's exponential.
So the question is how does achurch expand, a church movement
, a collection of churches,let's say the church in a city,
(04:00):
how does that movement ofChristianity expand in a way
that is exponential rather thanlinear?
Because when you hear a lot ofbiblical language, you hear
Jesus talking about more of anexponential growth model as an
explanation of his desire forthe church and even modeling out
in certain ways.
(04:20):
I was just looking at Luke,right where Jesus is praying.
He gathers all the disciples,he goes up in the mountain to
pray and he comes down and hepicks 12th right, and then he
goes on a journey where he'sgoing around preaching and he's
got the disciples just watchinghim, just watching him do it
right.
Then later on he sends out the12th Right.
Then later on he sends out 72.
(04:42):
Right, so what he's doing ishe's raising up people to do
what he does.
And then those people areraising up people to do what
they do.
And you even see that with Paul, when he's, you know, saying,
hey, the things that I'm, whenhe's, he's the things that I'm
teaching, you, make sure you're,make sure you're raising up
other people to teach what I'm.
The wisdom that I've given you,right?
(05:02):
So this is an expectation ofraising up leaders in the church
is that it's not just about apastor being a really good
preacher.
It's important.
You know the pastor has to bethe.
You know he has to preach thegospel, he has to do the word
and sacrament.
That is important.
We're not saying that's not athing.
That will always be a thing,but that's not the end of your
job description If you'releading the church.
(05:29):
If you're leading the church,there's more things that go into
that job description and wecall those things multiplicative
discipleship actions.
Can you raise up people to dowhat you do or portions of what
you do?
Right, you, pastor, will alwayshave a limit to the number of
people that you're going to beable to communicate to.
But if you equip the localchurch and you raise up leaders
(05:53):
and you shift the identity ofthe local church so they see
themselves part of thepriesthood, right Now you have
more people speaking to morepeople than you could have ever
spoken to.
Right Now you've got thebeginnings of a multiplication
movement.
Now, how do you do that?
That's the question.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Well, let's pause.
Let's just pause.
Yeah, let's talk.
We'll get to the how.
But I think we need to get justdrilled deeper into the why
this is so important.
Not only is it what Jesus did,but I think of the explosion in
the early church and the apostlePaul.
He is obviously an equipping,releasing, mission-oriented
(06:32):
leader.
He's trusting the Holy Spirit.
He's obviously trusting theword of God to work mightily.
But then, at the beginning andthe end of a lot of his letters,
he's referring to all of theseleaders scattered across the
known church.
And who are these?
These are apostolic leaders whohave heard the word and are
carrying out their apostolicfunctions in their local areas,
(06:52):
meaning they're raising up othermen who can teach, who can
raise up other men who can teach.
Second Timothy 2.2 is really alife verse here, Find others who
can teach and raise them up tofind others who can teach.
You see, actually and there's alot of people who have written
a lot about this but in secondtimothy 2 2 you want to open it
up, he's.
He's talking about timothy, his, his final, his final letter.
Jack is like his greatest, he'sin the maritime prison in rome
(07:16):
and he's doing for one what hewishes he could do for many
people.
It's kind of, in some respects,second timmy, at respects 2,
timothy's last will andtestament, right, you know.
So in that we have tounderstand the context.
In that context, knowing thatdeath is imminent, he's
mandating Timothy, charging himto find other men who can find
(07:37):
other men to teach.
He's saying I received thisauthority from Jesus through the
power of the Holy Spirit, likeI've met with Jesus.
So there's one generation, twogenerations down to me.
Timothy, I'm interacting withyou, now you're finding another
one who can you can interactwith, and then they're going to
find another one.
So there's five differentgenerations, five different
movements of the word that movesout of Paul's ministry.
(07:59):
How formative would that havebeen to Timothy?
We don't know a lot of hisstory.
I can't wait to meet Timothy.
It's like how did you actuallylive this out.
He's going to say.
I'll tell you what.
It was messy.
There were fits and starts.
I thought I could trust thisguy or whatever, but the Holy
Spirit worked and I had torelease it.
I had to move from a doer to adeveloper of people for any of
(08:22):
this to have a possibility tosaturate.
And you know, in the earlychurch, jack, last point, and
then we'll get into the how.
But you know, jesus is charged.
You will be my witnesses.
It's not just a command, it's apromise, and it actually
happened in the book of Acts,right From Jerusalem, judea,
samaria to the ends of the earth.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
And so they're like we got got to go, we got to
release, we got to start.
It was just in the DNA of theearly church and I think we need
to reclaim that multiplyingspirit today.
All right Done with the.
So, that being said,discipleship multiplication is
different than discipleshipgrowth.
Right, A very let's say, a veryeffective communicating pastor
that does a really great job atcommunicating the gospel, he can
absolutely attract a greatnumber of people to his church,
but it will plateau becausethere is a limit to the span of
(09:10):
care that a pastor can do.
Now you think differently aboutyour role and you can say I'm
going to raise up people thatcan do what I do I can.
You know, we can have multipledirectors, multiple people
serving in paid and unpaid jobsthat are able to help do
discipleship in this context,able to share the gospel with
their friends, able tocommunicate that right.
(09:30):
So now we've got way morevoices raising up more people
doing life-on-life discipleshipthan just a pastor-centric model
of discipleship for the church.
We're not in any waydenigrating the role of the
pastor.
We're actually saying as moreimportant right, this is more
important in addition topreaching and we're in sacrament
(09:52):
.
You're doing people development.
You're doing leadershipdevelopment.
You are raising up not just anytype of leader, but spiritual
leaders.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Amen, and I think discipleship needs to.
We need to clarify whatdiscipleship means to us.
There's a lot of folksLutherans, non-Lutherans who
have done a lot of work here.
I think my favorite synonym forthe word disciple is apprentice
.
Yeah, Absolutely Someone, andlet's use the three W's from
Jesus someone who knows and canspeak the words of Jesus.
(10:22):
So that's like a little bitahead here.
This is like holistic formation.
Apprenticeship is holisticformation.
So those who understand thewords of Jesus, understand the
work of Jesus, so they know hewent to the cross and they're
carrying their cross as well.
They understand this is not away, a path of glory, this is
the way of the cross.
And then, third, they know theway of Jesus, the rhythms of
(10:45):
Jesus.
Then you know I think we don'tlook at the way of Jesus nearly
enough like how epic of aleadership development guru,
multiplying leader, he was.
It seems kind of silly to say.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
And it's much, much more than a formal seminary
education, although those thingsare extremely important as well
.
But, you know, a school is notthe fullness of discipleship, it
is a very much lived out lifeon life.
It is iron testing, iron right.
It is bearing each other'scrosses.
It's like you said, it is rolemodeling and having people that
(11:19):
follow.
What's role modeled?
Yep, and this is exactly whenyou say that there's 12,.
We see 12 disciples in theBible.
These are 12 apprentices.
They're literally apprenticingunder Christ so that when he's
ready to give the greatcommission, they've been
apprenticed to do this Right.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Amen, amen.
So talk.
We've done the Don ratio before.
We need one pastor for every500 people in our Valley, like
we need exponentially morepastors.
You may be in a rural settingand you don't have the same
sense of urgency, but I betthere's still room for growth to
satisfy the Don ratio.
We know that for gospelsaturation to occur, one pastor
for every 500 people, and thisis one of the big reasons in a
(11:56):
community.
So this is one of the bigreasons why we're lovingly
challenging our thought processright now in the Lutheran Church
Missouri Synod.
Regarding formation yes, Are weraising up leaders just to
satisfy the current need andmaybe a declining need in
churches?
Or are we looking at ourcommunity and saying we want to
be about gospel saturation?
We need to rethink it, jack,yeah some people.
Speaker 3 (12:17):
So you know our context.
Christ Greenfield, it's arelatively large Lutheran church
.
We can celebrate that, butthere's nothing, there's no
laurels to rest on.
We are in the Phoenix metroarea with 4 million people and
for Christianity, you know, andideally, what we would love is
(12:38):
Lutheran Christianity, we lovethe orthodoxy of the Lutheran
faith.
For that to be normative in acommunity, you need one person
who can disciple and teach forevery 500 people.
This is research by the DawnInitiative.
So what does that look like forthe Phoenix metro area?
Well, we need about 12,000 morepeople, 12,000 more churches,
12,000 more pastors in ourPhoenix metro area, right?
(13:04):
So even if we were a massivemega church, right, with 10,000
people showing up, we are justtiny, scratching the surface of
what this metropolitan areaneeds.
We need to think radicallydifferent on our scale.
We need to think about thechurch as a movement that raises
up people, to fulfill thatratio, to make Christianity
(13:26):
normative for an entire region.
Right.
The scale, the scope of whatwe're doing has to be rethought.
We have to have a differentlens on how we think of mission
in America, and so it startswith rethinking the role of the
local church.
We believe that the true churchis found where there's
preaching and sacrament, right,but the role of the church has
(13:51):
to be a training institution.
We have to think of everysingle type of church as a type
of seminary, where life-on-lifediscipleship is happening, where
people are being challenged tolive out their vocation, not in
your, not just their dailyvocations as police officers and
, you know, managers and techconsultants and stuff like that.
(14:13):
But, priest, right, what doesthat look like to carry that
vocation with you into everysingle environment?
And then also, how do I takethe leadership skills that I've
learned in the business worldand apply that in the church and
become a spiritual leader?
Right?
And what does it look like thento start planting more churches
(14:33):
, or raising up more in our case, more campuses to reach more
people?
Right, this is themultiplication movement.
So this is where you seeexponential growth rather than
the linear growth.
It's a different model ofthinking.
So the challenges for us, tim,because people will ask well,
why do we challenge the existingpastoral formation for our
synod?
Number one, we are notadvocating for the elimination
(14:58):
of the existing system.
We are looking for addition tothe system so that the local
churches can be equipped toraise up people locally.
In order for this system tohappen, we are going to have to
Think of the national body as abody that exists primarily to
(15:19):
equip local congregations withexcellent leadership development
content.
Imagine how things would lookdifferent if that was the
culture of our church body, ifthe culture of the church body
was you, pastor, are expected toraise up spiritual leaders of
all different kinds, includingfuture pastors, future directors
, future whatever that is, andwe're going to equip you locally
(15:41):
to do that.
How that would look differentfor the scale and growth of our
church.
It would be amazing.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Yeah, well, we're praying.
We're praying for that day.
Honestly, our district shoutout to the Pacific Southwest
District.
I mean we're trying to liveinto that reality A hundred new
starts in the next 10 years.
Some of them are churches, notall of them are.
They're places, gospel stations, micro church expressions, all
different types, and so, yeah,the training for all of those
(16:09):
different communities are goingto look different.
Here's what I do know You're aproduct of this, jack, I am.
You came out of the marketplaceand you have a deep love for
Lutheran theology and you wantto multiply leaders.
You don't want it just to beabout you, you want it to be
about others that we're in lifewith and we're just seeing a
robust explosion right now is asculture and things change, like
(16:31):
deep theology and our Lutherantheology, our tension filled
theology, law, gospel, centered,like there are way more lay men
and women who, around theirrespective gifting If there are,
I see in you conversationscould imagine the day we're
living in our, in our context.
I guarantee they're there.
They could imagine the daywhere they're helping, they're
(16:53):
helping the pastor, they'rebearing the burdens.
You know the load of the pastorand I'll tell you what it is so
much fun to live into thatright now, to have so many
different proclaimers in ourcommunity.
And for those that say well,how do you maintain theological,
appropriate Lutheran theology,integrity, there we go, that's
(17:14):
the word.
And I have never okay, I'vebeen down this path for a long
time.
It's not like there's notnuanced ways that we can but,
it's the body of christ, theholy spirit that's within the
body of christ.
If one of these brothers islike teaching a word that is
inappropriate to our lutheranlens for scripture, I would hear
about it.
But here's the reality.
They're in learning communityright now.
(17:35):
That's not happening.
It's not happening happening,these guys are robust Lutheran
theologians.
It's great.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
Let me ask you this question right now, because
we've been on this leadershipdevelopment journey, raising up
people in alternative pathways,but very Lutheran right.
So, as we have done, this,would you say, christ Greenfield
has become more or lessLutheran by doing that,
exponentially more Lutheran,exponentially more Lutheran.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Exponentially more.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
Lutheran.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Exponentially more confessionally Lutheran than we
were before we started goingdown this path.
And that's the power of theHoly Spirit and the word right.
It's not about any one of us.
Like the church is going tomaintain her theological
integrity, like I have so manylay leaders that have been
listening to Lutheran preachingfor their entire lives Like if
we start going off the rails,we're going to hear about it,
but here's what I know they'recelebrating these men who are
(18:20):
going deeper into theirtheological formation, receiving
the word from them.
So, yeah, nothing could befurther from the truth of us
becoming less orthodox, lessconfessional.
Only it's going the other way.
Actually, I got to watch outfrom time to time that
pharisaical tendencies couldeven be like in our community
because we become so robust.
This is the Lutheran way, likethat's the ethos that I'm a part
(18:42):
of here, and it's super, superfun.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
Jack, absolutely so.
Yeah, I mean, if done well, youwill see more thirst and desire
to be a confessional Lutheranchurch, while maintaining that
missional fervor that'snecessary to move the church
forward.
You and I were talking earliertoday and I was talking about
hey, I wrote a little paper tohelp people going through a new
(19:05):
member class understand thedifference between synergism and
monergism, right, yeah, it'sgreat.
Wouldn't you like to have awhole bunch of lay leaders that
could do that kind of stuff,right For sure, that could be
able to enter into conversationsof this type of thing where
they can actually articulatethese key things about faith and
actually compare and contrastit with other denominations out
(19:27):
there and actually have thatlevel of understanding Like this
is the type of thing that'spossible in the local church if
we empower the local church totrain and multiply, right.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
And when you brought that up in our.
This is in our new member class, our belong new member class.
Like when you brought that up,were the people interested in
that topic?
Speaker 3 (19:46):
Absolutely fascinated with the topic.
Yeah, exactly, absolutelyfascinated with it.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Yeah, so we don't have to be afraid.
We don't have to be afraid ofthis conversation.
The Holy Spirit is leading usand we can, we can engage with,
engage with love and care andrespect for one another.
One little thing I would askeverybody that's listening to
pray for because I think thiswill be out before this
gathering both seminarypresidents, both at Concordia
Theological Seminary in FortWayne as well as Concordia
(20:13):
Seminary in St Louis.
They asked to meet with mearound the best practice time,
and so prayers that thatconversation would be Holy
Spirit filled and that we wouldbe open to exchange ideas and,
honestly, the goal is that we'dbe open to partner and work
together to advance the gospeland raise up more leaders at the
local level.
And I truly believe if there'sthat open spirit, our on-campus,
(20:37):
our residential influence onlyincreases.
So this has been fun, Jack.
Any final words of wisdom, forwe hope we've clarified language
around what multiply means.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
So some of you might be thinking okay, that's great,
what can I do?
How do I take my next step here?
What if I want to dodiscipleship multiplication,
which really means raising upleaders who raise up leaders
that's really what the goal is.
I want to do that.
What's the next step that Icould do?
What's one thing, Tim, that youwould say this is the next
(21:13):
first step for you.
What would you say?
What would you recommend?
Speaker 2 (21:16):
If you're not meeting with a group of leaders weekly
and pouring into them aroundscripture and the confessions
great place to start scriptureand I mean we're interviewing
right now Chad the keys you candig into the word of God and
like, pick up a book, like howthe light shines through very,
very practical.
You don't have to do it at 6amon Sunday, on Sunday, like we do
(21:38):
it, but find a group of men,elders, whoever they are
Actually for a lot of ourcongregations who have elders
who are serving in variousspiritual care roles, I think
that's the group that we need tostart with and then explore.
Is there anyone here in thisgroup based on their past, maybe
marketplace experience, orthey've kind of dabbled in
(22:01):
proclamation work Is thereanyone here who potentially has
the ability to teach others?
And if so, then you take yournext steps in formation with
them.
And here's the thing too aboutthe residential this leader
would probably like, at least intheir early years, to stay in
that community learning with you.
That's why it's hard for us alot of times to even picture
(22:23):
like we're going to send themoff for four years into another
context.
They may eventually, but I betthere's going to be a series of
months and years, they'dprobably want to dabble, stick
their foot in the water.
If that's the case, then youaudit a Reformation class with
Luther House.
Luther House loves just havingpeople just come in.
Jack, I mean you've been in theReformation class a number of
(22:44):
years.
Just try it out right, and youcan email us.
Just look us up atuniteleadershiporg if you want
any more help.
But is there a group of menthat you're meeting with with
the potential, with the lens?
Like you know, some of theseguys can start to do what I do.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
Excellent.
Yeah, if you connect with theUnite Leadership Collective, you
can check out our website andschedule a conversation with us.
There's no cost to have aninitial chat with us and we are
happy to sit down with you andtalk through what next steps
might look like for yourministry context.
So just let you know you're notalone out there.
(23:19):
We have been paying the dumbtax multiple times.
We pay a lot of that.
We pay a lot of dumb taxsometimes, but the benefit is we
are doing this on purpose, totry and bless other
congregations, that you canlearn from what we're learning
and have this wisdom applydirectly to you.
So we are happy in any way,shape or form to help any
(23:42):
congregation that's eager tostart a multiplication movement
in the local church.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Amen, this is an awesome opportunity, jack,
thanks for the conversation.
I hope this clarified.
We want to be about not justaddition, but those who identify
apprentices of Jesus and teachthem.
And not just teach them, butgive them experiences.
I do, you watch, I do, you help, you do, I watch, and on, we go
, you do, I'm a partner, andthen you do, and you know over
(24:10):
multiple years, you do andyou're doing the same thing for
others, inviting them in.
That's how.
That's how multiplicationhappens.
It's a good day.
Go, make it a great day.
We'll be back next Friday withanother.
We got a whole bunch of cooltopics.
We're going to be Ping and Jack.
You sent me a number of othertopics technology and
productivity, strategicexecution, safety and risk
management Woo, can't wait forthat one.
(24:30):
Managing change, conflict andstress.
So these are going to be alittle shorter form.
Hope they're very, verypractical and very, very helpful
.
It's a good day.
Go and make it a great day.
Good work, jack.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
Thank you and God bless guys.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the
Unite Leadership Collective.
The ULC's mission is tocollaborate with the local
church to discover, develop anddeploy leaders through biblical
Lutheran doctrine and innovativemethods To partner with us in
this gospel message.
Subscribe to our channel, thengo to theuniteleadershiporg to
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(25:08):
.
Thanks for listening and staytuned for next week's episode.
This is Lead Time.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Welcome to Lead Time, tim Allman, here with Jack
Kauberg.
This is going to be a shorterconversation today.
I think this will probably bereleased on a Friday, just the
next step for you on yourleadership journey.
A lot of these podcasts aregoing to be focused on, maybe,
best practices and clarifyingeven some of our language.
You know, jack, as you go on theleadership development journey,
(00:26):
as you start to become a churchthat is focused on maybe
building a hospitality cultureor learning new things like the
church engagement model, there'sone thing that is required on
this journey, and that ishumility, because there's never
an end to this.
I mean, there's always someone.
(00:47):
There's worthy rivals who areall around you within our
denomination, outside of ourdenomination, there's people
that are at a different placethan you are theologically, on
different points.
Anytime.
I'm focusing on gettingfeedback right, I never should
be surprised that someone has adifference of opinion or
(01:09):
amplified opinions around acertain topic, because the more
I know about a certain thing,that means the more I don't know
, and someone else is leaninginto another point of emphasis,
and I just have to have acurious heart, and we're gonna
lean into that curiosity today.
Any observations, though, tojust kind of maintaining
humility as we go on thisleadership development journey.
There's never there's.
(01:29):
The ceiling is very, very high,jack, as we continue to learn.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
Yes, it is very high, and I think you nailed a couple
things here.
I mean, first is there's alwaysmore to learn, right?
So we are on learning journeysand you know, even quoting good
old Martin Luther, he would sayit takes a hundred years to
become a good theologian, right?
So there's always opportunitiesfor us to learn and for our
(01:53):
audience to learn.
Everyone is constantly learning.
And then number two is there'salways an opportunity to be more
clear with our language.
It's very easy for messages toget confused.
Language is not always precise,it doesn't always mean the same
thing to different people, andso we're constantly trying to
monitor our language andunderstand.
Are we being as crystal clearas we possibly can when we're
(02:14):
trying to communicate aboutcertain topics?
So that kind of brings uptoday's topic that we're talking
about multiplication, right?
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (02:22):
that's right.
I had an email that was sentthat we're talking about
multiplication, right.
Yeah, that's right.
I had an email that was sent.
Maybe it was a text because Ithink it was in response to the
podcast I did on the line, apartner podcast and great Brian
Stecker doing a wonderful,wonderful job with that podcast,
welcoming a number of differentpeople with a variety of
different perspectives.
It was almost like a he wantsto be like Joe Rogan.
You know it was like almost athree-hour conversation, so
(02:50):
you'd think in three hours Iwould have been able to clarify
a term like multiply andleadership development leading
toward multiplying leaders.
The listener asked you throwaround multiply a lot.
Could you be more precise withwhat that means Over?
the next 10, 15 minutes we'llsee how long we go.
We want to give a kind of amasterclass deep dive.
When we use, in our context, inthe ULC, multiplication, we
(03:11):
mean this Jack, why don't youkick us off?
What do we mean when we talkmultiplication?
Speaker 3 (03:15):
Well, to start off, you know, obviously it's like
it's a mathematical term, right?
So some churches grow and otherchurches multiply, and when you
know, if you're a math nerd,like our buddy Trey who's got a
doctorate in mathematics andcurriculum design, right.
But if you draw a curve ofsomething that's on a growth
model, it's like a straight line, right, growth is linear, right
(03:39):
.
But multiplication means thatyou know, 10 becomes 20, 20
becomes 40, right, there's thisamplification that happens, and
so that's exponential.
So the question is how does achurch expand, a church movement
, a collection of churches,let's say the church in a city,
(04:00):
how does that movement ofChristianity expand in a way
that is exponential rather thanlinear?
Because when you hear a lot ofbiblical language, you hear
Jesus talking about more of anexponential growth model as an
explanation of his desire forthe church and even modeling out
in certain ways.
(04:20):
I was just looking at Luke,right where Jesus is praying.
He gathers all the disciples,he goes up in the mountain to
pray and he comes down and hepicks 12th right, and then he
goes on a journey where he'sgoing around preaching and he's
got the disciples just watchinghim, just watching him do it
right.
Then later on he sends out the12th Right.
Then later on he sends out 72.
(04:42):
Right, so what he's doing ishe's raising up people to do
what he does.
And then those people areraising up people to do what
they do.
And you even see that with Paul, when he's, you know, saying,
hey, the things that I'm, whenhe's, he's the things that I'm
teaching, you, make sure you're,make sure you're raising up
other people to teach what I'm.
The wisdom that I've given you,right?
(05:02):
So this is an expectation ofraising up leaders in the church
is that it's not just about apastor being a really good
preacher.
It's important.
You know the pastor has to bethe.
You know he has to preach thegospel, he has to do the word
and sacrament.
That is important.
We're not saying that's not athing.
That will always be a thing,but that's not the end of your
job description If you'releading the church.
(05:29):
If you're leading the church,there's more things that go into
that job description and wecall those things multiplicative
discipleship actions.
Can you raise up people to dowhat you do or portions of what
you do?
Right, you, pastor, will alwayshave a limit to the number of
people that you're going to beable to communicate to.
But if you equip the localchurch and you raise up leaders
(05:53):
and you shift the identity ofthe local church so they see
themselves part of thepriesthood, right Now you have
more people speaking to morepeople than you could have ever
spoken to.
Right Now you've got thebeginnings of a multiplication
movement.
Now, how do you do that?
That's the question.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Well, let's pause.
Let's just pause.
Yeah, let's talk.
We'll get to the how.
But I think we need to get justdrilled deeper into the why
this is so important.
Not only is it what Jesus did,but I think of the explosion in
the early church and the apostlePaul.
He is obviously an equipping,releasing, mission-oriented
(06:32):
leader.
He's trusting the Holy Spirit.
He's obviously trusting theword of God to work mightily.
But then, at the beginning andthe end of a lot of his letters,
he's referring to all of theseleaders scattered across the
known church.
And who are these?
These are apostolic leaders whohave heard the word and are
carrying out their apostolicfunctions in their local areas,
(06:52):
meaning they're raising up othermen who can teach, who can
raise up other men who can teach.
Second Timothy 2.2 is really alife verse here, Find others who
can teach and raise them up tofind others who can teach.
You see, actually and there's alot of people who have written
a lot about this but in secondtimothy 2 2 you want to open it
up, he's.
He's talking about timothy, his, his final, his final letter.
Jack is like his greatest, he'sin the maritime prison in rome
(07:16):
and he's doing for one what hewishes he could do for many
people.
It's kind of, in some respects,second timmy, at respects 2,
timothy's last will andtestament, right, you know.
So in that we have tounderstand the context.
In that context, knowing thatdeath is imminent, he's
mandating Timothy, charging himto find other men who can find
(07:37):
other men to teach.
He's saying I received thisauthority from Jesus through the
power of the Holy Spirit, likeI've met with Jesus.
So there's one generation, twogenerations down to me.
Timothy, I'm interacting withyou, now you're finding another
one who can you can interactwith, and then they're going to
find another one.
So there's five differentgenerations, five different
movements of the word that movesout of Paul's ministry.
(07:59):
How formative would that havebeen to Timothy?
We don't know a lot of hisstory.
I can't wait to meet Timothy.
It's like how did you actuallylive this out.
He's going to say.
I'll tell you what.
It was messy.
There were fits and starts.
I thought I could trust thisguy or whatever, but the Holy
Spirit worked and I had torelease it.
I had to move from a doer to adeveloper of people for any of
(08:22):
this to have a possibility tosaturate.
And you know, in the earlychurch, jack, last point, and
then we'll get into the how.
But you know, jesus is charged.
You will be my witnesses.
It's not just a command, it's apromise, and it actually
happened in the book of Acts,right From Jerusalem, judea,
samaria to the ends of the earth.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
And so they're like we got got to go, we got to
release, we got to start.
It was just in the DNA of theearly church and I think we need
to reclaim that multiplyingspirit today.
All right Done with the.
So, that being said,discipleship multiplication is
different than discipleshipgrowth.
Right, A very let's say, a veryeffective communicating pastor
that does a really great job atcommunicating the gospel, he can
absolutely attract a greatnumber of people to his church,
but it will plateau becausethere is a limit to the span of
(09:10):
care that a pastor can do.
Now you think differently aboutyour role and you can say I'm
going to raise up people thatcan do what I do I can.
You know, we can have multipledirectors, multiple people
serving in paid and unpaid jobsthat are able to help do
discipleship in this context,able to share the gospel with
their friends, able tocommunicate that right.
(09:30):
So now we've got way morevoices raising up more people
doing life-on-life discipleshipthan just a pastor-centric model
of discipleship for the church.
We're not in any waydenigrating the role of the
pastor.
We're actually saying as moreimportant right, this is more
important in addition topreaching and we're in sacrament
(09:52):
.
You're doing people development.
You're doing leadershipdevelopment.
You are raising up not just anytype of leader, but spiritual
leaders.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Amen, and I think discipleship needs to.
We need to clarify whatdiscipleship means to us.
There's a lot of folksLutherans, non-Lutherans who
have done a lot of work here.
I think my favorite synonym forthe word disciple is apprentice
.
Yeah, Absolutely Someone, andlet's use the three W's from
Jesus someone who knows and canspeak the words of Jesus.
(10:22):
So that's like a little bitahead here.
This is like holistic formation.
Apprenticeship is holisticformation.
So those who understand thewords of Jesus, understand the
work of Jesus, so they know hewent to the cross and they're
carrying their cross as well.
They understand this is not away, a path of glory, this is
the way of the cross.
And then, third, they know theway of Jesus, the rhythms of
(10:45):
Jesus.
Then you know I think we don'tlook at the way of Jesus nearly
enough like how epic of aleadership development guru,
multiplying leader, he was.
It seems kind of silly to say.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
And it's much, much more than a formal seminary
education, although those thingsare extremely important as well
.
But, you know, a school is notthe fullness of discipleship, it
is a very much lived out lifeon life.
It is iron testing, iron right.
It is bearing each other'scrosses.
It's like you said, it is rolemodeling and having people that
(11:19):
follow.
What's role modeled?
Yep, and this is exactly whenyou say that there's 12,.
We see 12 disciples in theBible.
These are 12 apprentices.
They're literally apprenticingunder Christ so that when he's
ready to give the greatcommission, they've been
apprenticed to do this Right.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Amen, amen.
So talk.
We've done the Don ratio before.
We need one pastor for every500 people in our Valley, like
we need exponentially morepastors.
You may be in a rural settingand you don't have the same
sense of urgency, but I betthere's still room for growth to
satisfy the Don ratio.
We know that for gospelsaturation to occur, one pastor
for every 500 people, and thisis one of the big reasons in a
(11:56):
community.
So this is one of the bigreasons why we're lovingly
challenging our thought processright now in the Lutheran Church
Missouri Synod.
Regarding formation yes, Are weraising up leaders just to
satisfy the current need andmaybe a declining need in
churches?
Or are we looking at ourcommunity and saying we want to
be about gospel saturation?
We need to rethink it, jack,yeah some people.
Speaker 3 (12:17):
So you know our context.
Christ Greenfield, it's arelatively large Lutheran church
.
We can celebrate that, butthere's nothing, there's no
laurels to rest on.
We are in the Phoenix metroarea with 4 million people and
for Christianity, you know, andideally, what we would love is
(12:38):
Lutheran Christianity, we lovethe orthodoxy of the Lutheran
faith.
For that to be normative in acommunity, you need one person
who can disciple and teach forevery 500 people.
This is research by the DawnInitiative.
So what does that look like forthe Phoenix metro area?
Well, we need about 12,000 morepeople, 12,000 more churches,
12,000 more pastors in ourPhoenix metro area, right?
(13:04):
So even if we were a massivemega church, right, with 10,000
people showing up, we are justtiny, scratching the surface of
what this metropolitan areaneeds.
We need to think radicallydifferent on our scale.
We need to think about thechurch as a movement that raises
up people, to fulfill thatratio, to make Christianity
(13:26):
normative for an entire region.
Right.
The scale, the scope of whatwe're doing has to be rethought.
We have to have a differentlens on how we think of mission
in America, and so it startswith rethinking the role of the
local church.
We believe that the true churchis found where there's
preaching and sacrament, right,but the role of the church has
(13:51):
to be a training institution.
We have to think of everysingle type of church as a type
of seminary, where life-on-lifediscipleship is happening, where
people are being challenged tolive out their vocation, not in
your, not just their dailyvocations as police officers and
, you know, managers and techconsultants and stuff like that.
(14:13):
But, priest, right, what doesthat look like to carry that
vocation with you into everysingle environment?
And then also, how do I takethe leadership skills that I've
learned in the business worldand apply that in the church and
become a spiritual leader?
Right?
And what does it look like thento start planting more churches
(14:33):
, or raising up more in our case, more campuses to reach more
people?
Right, this is themultiplication movement.
So this is where you seeexponential growth rather than
the linear growth.
It's a different model ofthinking.
So the challenges for us, tim,because people will ask well,
why do we challenge the existingpastoral formation for our
synod?
Number one, we are notadvocating for the elimination
(14:58):
of the existing system.
We are looking for addition tothe system so that the local
churches can be equipped toraise up people locally.
In order for this system tohappen, we are going to have to
Think of the national body as abody that exists primarily to
(15:19):
equip local congregations withexcellent leadership development
content.
Imagine how things would lookdifferent if that was the
culture of our church body, ifthe culture of the church body
was you, pastor, are expected toraise up spiritual leaders of
all different kinds, includingfuture pastors, future directors
, future whatever that is, andwe're going to equip you locally
(15:41):
to do that.
How that would look differentfor the scale and growth of our
church.
It would be amazing.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Yeah, well, we're praying.
We're praying for that day.
Honestly, our district shoutout to the Pacific Southwest
District.
I mean we're trying to liveinto that reality A hundred new
starts in the next 10 years.
Some of them are churches, notall of them are.
They're places, gospel stations, micro church expressions, all
different types, and so, yeah,the training for all of those
(16:09):
different communities are goingto look different.
Here's what I do know You're aproduct of this, jack, I am.
You came out of the marketplaceand you have a deep love for
Lutheran theology and you wantto multiply leaders.
You don't want it just to beabout you, you want it to be
about others that we're in lifewith and we're just seeing a
robust explosion right now is asculture and things change, like
(16:31):
deep theology and our Lutherantheology, our tension filled
theology, law, gospel, centered,like there are way more lay men
and women who, around theirrespective gifting If there are,
I see in you conversationscould imagine the day we're
living in our, in our context.
I guarantee they're there.
They could imagine the daywhere they're helping, they're
(16:53):
helping the pastor, they'rebearing the burdens.
You know the load of the pastorand I'll tell you what it is so
much fun to live into thatright now, to have so many
different proclaimers in ourcommunity.
And for those that say well,how do you maintain theological,
appropriate Lutheran theology,integrity, there we go, that's
(17:14):
the word.
And I have never okay, I'vebeen down this path for a long
time.
It's not like there's notnuanced ways that we can but,
it's the body of christ, theholy spirit that's within the
body of christ.
If one of these brothers islike teaching a word that is
inappropriate to our lutheranlens for scripture, I would hear
about it.
But here's the reality.
They're in learning communityright now.
(17:35):
That's not happening.
It's not happening happening,these guys are robust Lutheran
theologians.
It's great.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
Let me ask you this question right now, because
we've been on this leadershipdevelopment journey, raising up
people in alternative pathways,but very Lutheran right.
So, as we have done, this,would you say, christ Greenfield
has become more or lessLutheran by doing that,
exponentially more Lutheran,exponentially more Lutheran.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Exponentially more.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
Lutheran.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Exponentially more confessionally Lutheran than we
were before we started goingdown this path.
And that's the power of theHoly Spirit and the word right.
It's not about any one of us.
Like the church is going tomaintain her theological
integrity, like I have so manylay leaders that have been
listening to Lutheran preachingfor their entire lives Like if
we start going off the rails,we're going to hear about it,
but here's what I know they'recelebrating these men who are
(18:20):
going deeper into theirtheological formation, receiving
the word from them.
So, yeah, nothing could befurther from the truth of us
becoming less orthodox, lessconfessional.
Only it's going the other way.
Actually, I got to watch outfrom time to time that
pharisaical tendencies couldeven be like in our community
because we become so robust.
This is the Lutheran way, likethat's the ethos that I'm a part
(18:42):
of here, and it's super, superfun.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
Jack, absolutely so.
Yeah, I mean, if done well, youwill see more thirst and desire
to be a confessional Lutheranchurch, while maintaining that
missional fervor that'snecessary to move the church
forward.
You and I were talking earliertoday and I was talking about
hey, I wrote a little paper tohelp people going through a new
(19:05):
member class understand thedifference between synergism and
monergism, right, yeah, it'sgreat.
Wouldn't you like to have awhole bunch of lay leaders that
could do that kind of stuff,right For sure, that could be
able to enter into conversationsof this type of thing where
they can actually articulatethese key things about faith and
actually compare and contrastit with other denominations out
(19:27):
there and actually have thatlevel of understanding Like this
is the type of thing that'spossible in the local church if
we empower the local church totrain and multiply, right.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
And when you brought that up in our.
This is in our new member class, our belong new member class.
Like when you brought that up,were the people interested in
that topic?
Speaker 3 (19:46):
Absolutely fascinated with the topic.
Yeah, exactly, absolutelyfascinated with it.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Yeah, so we don't have to be afraid.
We don't have to be afraid ofthis conversation.
The Holy Spirit is leading usand we can, we can engage with,
engage with love and care andrespect for one another.
One little thing I would askeverybody that's listening to
pray for because I think thiswill be out before this
gathering both seminarypresidents, both at Concordia
Theological Seminary in FortWayne as well as Concordia
(20:13):
Seminary in St Louis.
They asked to meet with mearound the best practice time,
and so prayers that thatconversation would be Holy
Spirit filled and that we wouldbe open to exchange ideas and,
honestly, the goal is that we'dbe open to partner and work
together to advance the gospeland raise up more leaders at the
local level.
And I truly believe if there'sthat open spirit, our on-campus,
(20:37):
our residential influence onlyincreases.
So this has been fun, Jack.
Any final words of wisdom, forwe hope we've clarified language
around what multiply means.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
So some of you might be thinking okay, that's great,
what can I do?
How do I take my next step here?
What if I want to dodiscipleship multiplication,
which really means raising upleaders who raise up leaders
that's really what the goal is.
I want to do that.
What's the next step that Icould do?
What's one thing, Tim, that youwould say this is the next
(21:13):
first step for you.
What would you say?
What would you recommend?
Speaker 2 (21:16):
If you're not meeting with a group of leaders weekly
and pouring into them aroundscripture and the confessions
great place to start scriptureand I mean we're interviewing
right now Chad the keys you candig into the word of God and
like, pick up a book, like howthe light shines through very,
very practical.
You don't have to do it at 6amon Sunday, on Sunday, like we do
(21:38):
it, but find a group of men,elders, whoever they are
Actually for a lot of ourcongregations who have elders
who are serving in variousspiritual care roles, I think
that's the group that we need tostart with and then explore.
Is there anyone here in thisgroup based on their past, maybe
marketplace experience, orthey've kind of dabbled in
(22:01):
proclamation work Is thereanyone here who potentially has
the ability to teach others?
And if so, then you take yournext steps in formation with
them.
And here's the thing too aboutthe residential this leader
would probably like, at least intheir early years, to stay in
that community learning with you.
That's why it's hard for us alot of times to even picture
(22:23):
like we're going to send themoff for four years into another
context.
They may eventually, but I betthere's going to be a series of
months and years, they'dprobably want to dabble, stick
their foot in the water.
If that's the case, then youaudit a Reformation class with
Luther House.
Luther House loves just havingpeople just come in.
Jack, I mean you've been in theReformation class a number of
(22:44):
years.
Just try it out right, and youcan email us.
Just look us up atuniteleadershiporg if you want
any more help.
But is there a group of menthat you're meeting with with
the potential, with the lens?
Like you know, some of theseguys can start to do what I do.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
Excellent.
Yeah, if you connect with theUnite Leadership Collective, you
can check out our website andschedule a conversation with us.
There's no cost to have aninitial chat with us and we are
happy to sit down with you andtalk through what next steps
might look like for yourministry context.
So just let you know you're notalone out there.
(23:19):
We have been paying the dumbtax multiple times.
We pay a lot of that.
We pay a lot of dumb taxsometimes, but the benefit is we
are doing this on purpose, totry and bless other
congregations, that you canlearn from what we're learning
and have this wisdom applydirectly to you.
So we are happy in any way,shape or form to help any
(23:42):
congregation that's eager tostart a multiplication movement
in the local church.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Amen, this is an awesome opportunity, jack,
thanks for the conversation.
I hope this clarified.
We want to be about not justaddition, but those who identify
apprentices of Jesus and teachthem.
And not just teach them, butgive them experiences.
I do, you watch, I do, you help, you do, I watch, and on, we go
, you do, I'm a partner, andthen you do, and you know over
(24:10):
multiple years, you do andyou're doing the same thing for
others, inviting them in.
That's how.
That's how multiplicationhappens.
It's a good day.
Go, make it a great day.
We'll be back next Friday withanother.
We got a whole bunch of cooltopics.
We're going to be Ping and Jack.
You sent me a number of othertopics technology and
productivity, strategicexecution, safety and risk
management Woo, can't wait forthat one.
(24:30):
Managing change, conflict andstress.
So these are going to be alittle shorter form.
Hope they're very, verypractical and very, very helpful
.
It's a good day.
Go and make it a great day.
Good work, jack.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
Thank you and God bless guys.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the
Unite Leadership Collective.
The ULC's mission is tocollaborate with the local
church to discover, develop anddeploy leaders through biblical
Lutheran doctrine and innovativemethods To partner with us in
this gospel message.
Subscribe to our channel, thengo to theuniteleadershiporg to
create your free login forexclusive material and resources
and then to explore ways inwhich you can sponsor an episode
(25:08):
.
Thanks for listening and staytuned for next week's episode.
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