February 28, 2025 • 35 mins
The episode delves into the significance of branding in church ministry, emphasizing how identity and storytelling play crucial roles in reaching new audiences. Church leaders are encouraged to rethink their approach to branding, ensuring alignment between mission statements and the experiences they provide.
• Emphasis on the holistic nature of branding for churches
• Importance of storytelling in conveying church identity
• Disconnection between mission statements and lived experiences
• Tips for creating accessible and inviting church websites
• Recognition of branding as an ongoing, evolving process
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is Lead Time.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Welcome to Lead Time, Tim Allman here.
Jack Kauberg in the house.
How you doing, Jack?
Speaker 3 (00:08):
I'm doing fantastic, man.
It's been a delightful week,very busy week, connecting with
a lot of people.
Depending on when we post this,there's a little bit of a time
shift here, but we're justfinishing BPM in the Phoenix
area, as well as meeting withsome of the most mission-minded
people in our entire nationalchurch body, so it's been very
invigorating, I think, reallyexciting it was.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Lutherpalooza for a whole week, everybody and their
mom descending upon the valley,maybe their grandma and grandpa
too, especially with the missionorientation in the Missouri
Synod.
There are so many, jack, as Iget to hang out, so many amazing
ministries, men and women offaith who are in maybe full-time
vocational ministry, but Italked to a whole bunch of lay
(00:51):
leaders, elders and those thatmay be on boards that are just
looking to cast new vision toreach new people.
I think there's a spirit ofoptimism and hope.
Over 3,000 people came to theBest Practices ministry and so
shout out to Christ Church,lutheran and Pastor Schrank and
their team you want to talkabout a brand, over the top
hospitality, caring for peoplefor three days.
(01:14):
So, yeah, I'm juiced coming outof that as well and, listener,
I pray, you're excited to get tomeet James Seleska.
James reached out to me andjust kind of like a number of
people, saying hey, thanks forhaving the conversation about,
yes, theology, yes, mission, butalso looking at different
topics that we think the churchought to be aware of and this is
going to be a masterclass interms of brand.
(01:36):
Let me tell you a little bitabout James.
James is in Frankenmuth,michigan Now.
If you know anything about theLutheran Church Missouri Synod.
This is like the motherland ofthe heartland of the origin
story of the LCMS, and I'm goingto let him tell a little bit of
his story.
But he was just telling us he'shelped over 12 service
companies industries there inFrankenmuth with their redesign
(01:59):
around their brand and hestarted his own company toward
that end and is now starting towork with churches as well, as a
lot of churches are saying, hey, maybe it's time for us to
reconsider the value of brands.
So, james, thanks for beingwith us today.
On Lead Time, brother, how areyou doing?
Speaker 4 (02:14):
Great.
Thank you so much for having me.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Yeah, this is going to be great.
So what else?
What did I leave out in yourstory and what you're kind of
offering right now, james?
Speaker 4 (02:30):
Yeah, so my story starts a little bit further back
than that, and so I've beenraised Lutheran my whole life.
My grandpa actually taught at aseminary, fort Wayne, for a
while.
My uncle is at a seminary rightnow.
I have another uncle who was aleader of Concordia, and my dad
is a teacher.
My mom is a teacher.
All of them are in Lutheraneducation.
And so I went to Concordia,wisconsin, and in school.
In high school I really didn'twant to take a career where I
(02:51):
had to write papers or taketests, and art seemed like a
natural progression for me, andso I got into design.
It seemed like a great place tobe, but one of the things that
was always in the back of myhead was how do I use this
career to further the kingdom ofGod?
And that's been something thatI've worked towards over the
past 20 years is trying tofigure out where do the skills
(03:12):
that God has given me exist inthe marketplace in a way that I
can help out churches?
And so I worked at anadvertising agency out of
college for a while, and then Imet my wife and moved to
Frankenmuth, and it was therethat I started to get into my
own stuff.
I wasn't really intentionallydoing that, except that there
wasn't a lot of places aroundthat were doing the type of
thing that I wanted to do, andso my business has really
(03:34):
evolved over that time andbecause of my strong Lutheran
heritage I've been able toconnect with the people.
I think people say you know,it's not what you know, it's who
you know, and so I know a lotof pastors.
I broomed with two pastors andI was at Concordia, and so it
was a natural progression thatthat's where my business grew,
and so, along with the businessthat I do in Frankenmuth for
(03:55):
local tourism companies, here Ido a lot of church related
branding and then also outsideof you know churches.
I do work with districts andthe LCMS as well.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
That's a deep need right now.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
It's a huge need.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
Churches need to be looking at their brand with
intentionality.
I don't care if you're a largerchurch small church, like
identifying.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Is our brand helping us reach more people with the
gospel or is it hurting us?
So let's talk brand.
Why is understanding brandJames important, both in the
marketplace or is it hurting us?
So let's talk brand.
Why is understanding brandJames important, both in the
marketplace and in the localchurch?
Speaker 4 (04:30):
Oh well, you've kind of already said that already,
but it's about building trust.
It's about helping people whoare walking into your front door
or viewing you online establishability to see who you are and
what you're about, and it's thattrust that allows them to see
your consistency across all thetouch points as well, and so
(04:51):
when they're watching videosfrom your pastors or when
they're reading about what youbelieve or what type of
activities you have, they wantto be able to tell right away
this is a place that I can goand feel comfortable and
welcomed and understand whatyou're about, and so that brand
really helps kind of give youthat doorway into that story
(05:11):
right off the bat.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Yeah, yeah.
What are misperceptions that weoften have about brand?
Because I think when mostpeople think about this, they
think look, they think design,they think logo.
But brand is way, way biggerthan that.
Right, James?
Yeah, 100%.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
I would say that, and it's interesting.
I think churches, especiallyright now, are realizing that it
goes beyond the logo.
So a lot of the places that I'mworking with are asking me to
design a logo.
But then what is it?
How does that reach out intothe other touch points?
What are some of the other waysthat we can use that logo to
tell our story, and how doesthat logo reflect the story that
we're already trying to tell?
(05:50):
And so, like you said, it'smuch more than just a logo.
It's all the different thingsthat help contribute to your
church's story and it's all thedifferent pieces and parts that,
when people are interactingwith you, they can get and they
can feel when people areinteracting with you, they can
get and they can feel yeah, Ithink that's great.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Let's talk more about story.
People are we're all storiedindividuals.
We see the world throughstories.
So get a little bit moredetailed in terms of how your
company helps tell a story, andyou can use an example or two.
And we've got a lot oflisteners, right, james, who are
in maybe smaller churches.
I already know the devil wantsto sway our minds like I can't,
I won't, you'll never.
I think there's the unfortunatething about the marketplace
(06:33):
today, if you will, the churchmissional marketplace is you've
got a lot of other churches andministries that you compare
yourself to and you're like man,I can never do that.
Satan's so wily man.
So let's get into how would youhelp, like a small,
medium-sized church, tell theirstory and how is that connected
to brand James?
Speaker 4 (06:53):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean number one.
It starts with your mission andyour vision.
And so what are those thingsthat you're trying to hit and
who is that person that you'retrying to reach?
And so I was working with achurch recently that really
wants to hit outside of thetypical person that's attending
their service and wants to reachinto the community to some of
these people who are coming andwho have a need that's greater
to.
Ooh, just a second, sorry, mylight just turned off.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Sorry, all good, all good.
If you're watching, I can seeit almost looks like the
background of James' office.
Oh, that looks like your child.
How many children do you have,james?
I have four children.
What are their?
Speaker 4 (07:30):
ages.
Well, I just had a newborn, andso he's a month old, and then
I've got one that's in preschool, kindergarten and third grade.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Wow, that's so good.
Enjoy your moment, dude.
So, yeah, keep going on interms of story.
The church you're helping rightnow tell their story, yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:46):
So if they want to reach a person that's outside of
their typical church goer, howdo they tell the story?
What does their mission looklike?
What does their vision looklike in order to reflect things
that that person needs?
And so if that person is maybea little bit more lower income,
how can we tell a story thatallows that person to feel
comfortable and confident whenthey walk in the door?
(08:08):
What are the things when theyland on the website that show
that our doors are open and wewant to reach out to people like
them?
Speaker 3 (08:16):
James, I think you brought up mission statements
and, like value statements, Ithink this is a key thing for
organizations is they arepowerful brand building tools,
but in order for them to be that, you actually have to abide by
them.
You can't they can't just besomething theoretical that
you're aspiring to.
They actually have to drivebehavior of the local church and
(08:39):
if it doesn't, it can actuallybe harmful.
If you sit there and say allthese things in your mission
statement about being welcomingto people but then when you show
up there's very poorhospitality.
People don't care what thatmission statement says.
They actually care about theexperience that they have.
Right.
Talk about that a little bit.
Maybe sometimes a disconnectthat might happen between a
mission statement and actuallyhow people behave.
Speaker 4 (08:59):
Yeah, that's really important.
One of the things that I reallytry to do in my work is make
sure that I'm aligning with that, in that what they say is what
I'm pushing them and helpingthem align with, and so what I
don't want to do is come in andsay I think you should be this
and that doesn't align with whatthey think.
And so you're absolutely right,other people on your staff or
(09:25):
even your congregation thatstory is irrelevant, because
people walk in the door and, allof a sudden, what you've been
pushing online is different thanwhat they experience when they
come in, and so it is reallyabout aligning all the various
touch points, and that's comesback to that idea of branding.
So it's not just what does thatlogo look like on the website,
but what is the story you'retelling the website and does
that story then reflected whenyou walk in the doors?
Is your welcome centerreiterating that is the stuff
(09:45):
that you're handing out,reiterating that story?
Is your bulletin reflectingthat story?
And how are these differentelements, all kind of giving
pieces, that when the personwalks in the door, they feel
like they've already met you andthey already know who you are
and they already know whatyou're about?
And again, you know it comesall the way down to what is the
pastor up front and how does thestory come out from that
(10:06):
perspective as well.
And so it really is to me aboutfinding that alignment and
making sure that then that'swhat's filtered down through all
the different touch points.
So rather than kind of a youknow from the bottom up, it's a
top down approach and makingsure that everything comes in
lines.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
That's.
That's so good, jack.
I'm thinking one of ourtaglines is you belong here?
You probably wouldn't put onyour website you don't belong
here.
Like every church is going tosay, yeah, we want to be about
hospitality.
Go ahead, jack.
Maybe they do, maybe they do.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
Sometimes well, not explicitly, but sometimes what a
church will do is they'll frontfirst foremost.
I don't be careful aboutcalling out a specific church.
There's a church that put righton the front of the website we
are proud I'm trying to sayunashamed of our.
(11:01):
This is like the first thing.
They start right off the bat.
We are proudly liturgical,confessional church, right.
So that's great.
They're owning what they love.
But it also says like if that'snot where you are, then you're
not going to feel welcome here,right?
So you're already right off thebat saying this is who we're
for and this is kind of whowe're not for by that standpoint
we're narrowing.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Yeah, James, talk about that, because that is a
dance.
I mean, we want to be true towho we are as confessional
Lutherans, but we also believeconfessional Lutheranism should
be for everybody Like, even ifyou don't have that sort of a
(11:42):
brand indicator.
Speaker 4 (11:43):
You didn't grow up Lutheran LCMS, whatever, like
the doors are still wide openfor you.
How do you help churches, kindof with that dance James,
absolutely, I mean.
I think a really important partof the website is the beliefs
page and I think that's whereyou get into that type of
specific and make sure thatpeople understand these are the
touch points.
These are the things that webelieve in, this is what we
stand by and this is what youcan see reflected in our service
and the way that we worship.
I think the rest of the websiteshould really feel like a
welcome center.
And so if you think about, likewhen you visit a city and you go
(12:06):
to their, if you go to thewebsite, what are the things
that they're talking about thatmake you feel like, ooh, I want
to check that out, I'minterested in that, and then get
into the details of what that'slike, where the events held.
You know what kind of size is akid friendly, that type of thing
.
And so if you approach a churchwebsite the same way, you get
that balance of you still wantto give them the core, the meat
(12:27):
and potatoes of what you believe.
You don't want to hide that,but you also want to make sure
that they feel comfortable andconfident walking in and they're
excited about the experience,and so what are some of the ways
that you can tell that story onthe website and give them that
feeling of there's a lot of funthings going on here.
There's a lot of interestingthings going on.
This is a dynamic, excitingchurch and I know that it's
rooted in what I believe and Ican stand strong in what they're
(12:51):
doing because at the core ofwhat they do is what they
believe.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
Right, yeah, well, before you have something to
learn.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Yeah, let's talk about web design, jack.
One of our major dances atGrace Greenfield is the pull
toward the website needs to beall things for all people.
The pull toward the websiteneeds to be all things for all
people, and the website is myone-stop shop for the member as
well as for the guest, andthat's maybe not a best practice
(13:18):
.
So what are three principleslocal churches could take to
improve the first impression ontheir website?
James?
Speaker 4 (13:22):
Yeah, I think you really nailed it there.
Clarity over complexity is abig thing, and so making sure
that it's simple, it's easy tonavigate and it's interesting, I
think a lot of times you try tothrow everything up there and
then that message gets dilutedand lost over the course of the
website.
And so what are the key,essential parts?
And so I work a lot withchurches up front with designing
(13:44):
that flow, that user flow of.
When they land on the website,where is it that we want to
direct them?
What's the most important callto action?
A lot of the times it's getthem in the doors to visit the
church.
And what are some of the things, what are some of the types of
messaging that we'll hear, thatthey'll hear that will allow
them to feel comfortablevisiting the church.
The other thing too, like yousaid or you kind of alluded to,
(14:05):
is the idea that, um, mobilefirst is really important right
now.
So websites are really important, but they're doing it on their
phone.
So if that website doesn't workwell on the phone, if it's not
connecting with them, um, youknow the, the text is too small
or the pictures aren't centered,or or whatever, it's really
important that your websiteworks well on the um mobile, and
then I think the big one that alot of churches that I see
(14:28):
struggle with right now isauthenticity in their
storytelling and then justreally solid imagery.
And so if you again you look atthe churches that are doing this
well, they have fantasticimages that make you feel like
you belong there and that youthat it's a trustworthy
establishment and and I think, acurrent establishment as well,
(14:50):
and so constantly updating thatstuff, making sure that the
event photos are current andthat it's exciting and again we
go back to that idea of avisitor center.
When you land on those sites,you feel like I can be here, I
want to be here, and that's whatwe want to see from a church
website as well.
Is that, yes, there's worshiphere, but what are some other
exciting ways that I can getinvolved with this community?
(15:12):
What else are they doingbesides that?
Speaker 3 (15:14):
Yeah, I love this image of it's a digital welcome
center, right center in yourcourtyard or your narthex or
whatever, and you know youraudience is guests or people who
are new trying to get moreconnected to the church.
What do you have available forpeople in that welcome center?
Well, that's basically what youhave on your website as well.
(15:36):
That is the audience thatyou're dealing with and I tell
people, virtually 100% of peoplewho are guests to your church
will check out your websitebefore they're coming.
They're trying to see you knowwhat are they looking at,
they're seeing.
Are you weird?
Is this place weird?
You know it's kind of.
You know.
Is it welcoming?
What do I do with my kids?
How should I dress?
What are you know?
(15:56):
Obviously basic things likewhat are the times and how long
is the service and stuff likethat.
But people have questionsbefore showing up and you know
the how you communicate topeople before they show up, as a
form of hospitality, and theyreally appreciate being informed
about these things, right?
So thinking about the websiteprimarily is hospitality towards
(16:16):
guests, man, and so then, whatdo you do with stuff that
members like member resources,like hey, we're, we're part of
the community.
What we do is we put that inour app.
You know it's like hey, thewebsite is for our guests, the
app is for our members, right.
Every, every single thing,every single insider resource
you could possibly imagine is onour app, right, but everything
(16:39):
for the guests is going to be onour website.
Speaker 4 (16:41):
Absolutely yeah, and and that's the way that I design
all the websites, and sothere's a member portal where
everything that's important tothem exists there.
Like you said a lot of times,that exists within an app if
you're doing it well, but wewant to make sure that the
website is very visitor focusedand, primarily, most of the
churches that I work with arehow, when people land on the
website, how, when the visitorsland on the website, do we get
(17:02):
them in the door so that then wecan make those personal
connections, because it's greaton the website, but it's best,
you know, one-on-one when theywalk in, and so making sure that
it's focused on that is isreally important.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
So obviously we're going to be connecting people to
, to your company and yourservices.
That's awesome at the end ofthis, but are there if
somebody's looking to redesigntheir their website?
You know who are some of yourpreferred partners in that work,
james.
Speaker 4 (17:30):
I don't really have any preferred me obviously Okay,
you do website.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
Okay, well then, don't throw any other names out,
just go to James Alaska that'sall you need to know.
Speaker 4 (17:37):
No, there's a lot of great Christian adjacent or
other organizations that workwith churches.
Specifically, there's one inIndiana called Fish Hook.
They do fantastic work.
I'm a big fan of the stuff thatthey do.
Um.
There's another one called umoh, plain Joe.
They do a lot of um, really bignon-denominational church work
(18:00):
and they do a lot ofarchitectural work and they're a
lot of fun to see with theprojects that they're working on
.
Uh, I don't, I don't really havea lot of other.
You know, no one's going to.
Hopefully no one's coming to megoing.
Who do you recommend?
If you weren't to do this, whatwould you recommend?
But I know a lot of otherdesigners too.
It's really interesting to meto watch over the progression of
my career too.
(18:20):
Designers within the Christianspace are really starting to
turn a corner too.
So I talked about how churchesare starting to realize that
design is important, butdesigners are really.
There's some really fantasticwork done by Christian designers
for these churches and you'restarting to see these churches
have a really impressivecreative team that's not only
(18:42):
producing the content that's inon Sunday, but also other
materials that are just reallyreally well done and so becoming
a clearinghouse for that typeof stuff I think in today's
society is another place wherethese churches really have the
opportunity to grow, and I tryto push that to that idea of
what, besides Sunday morning,are you doing to feed people
(19:04):
what they need?
Speaker 3 (19:08):
to feed people what they need.
An interesting thought as itcomes to website and we've put a
lot of thought into this is ifsomebody were to tell you in
advance that they were coming asa guest, what would you do for
that person to make them feelwelcome?
On Sunday and I don't know thatwe always use that website as
an opportunity to have peoplelet us know that they're coming
and then make preparations forthat person to feel exceedingly
(19:30):
welcomed in their firstexperience with the church.
Any thoughts about that?
What you've seen as bestpractices?
Speaker 4 (19:36):
Yeah, no, you're right, absolutely, and that's
why that plan your visit page isso fundamentally important to
the church's website is what arethe things that you can say to
that individual?
Again, if we go back to whowe're targeting, who's your
target audience?
What are the types of thingsthat they need?
What are the types ofexperiences that they're having
that will allow them to go?
This feels like something I canget on board with.
(19:56):
There's another church here inMichigan that's doing a great
job and they've got a bunch ofother ministries that kind of
feed into their church, and sothey're offering things like a
coffee house, and I thinkthey've even got like a place
where you can go and get yourcar fixed, and so all these
websites are kind of backed bythis church and allow those
people who are coming in throughother avenues to come back to
(20:17):
the church.
And I think that that plan yourvisit kind of page should have
some of that ability to say, hey, here's who we are, um, and
most of all, we want you to comeand meet us.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
We were kind of talking about how the and you've
worked in the LCMS.
Just to let you know some ofsome of James work he's a lead
designer for the LCMS youthgathering, working with websites
, photography for churches allover the U?
S and districts and otherChristian organizations.
Praise God, jack and I havesaid for some time and this is
(20:52):
all based on a relationship andcare and because of the, I don't
know polarizing, politicized,tribal nature, not just in the
world, but can also take placein the LCMS, and it's very
unfortunate, I believe ourrespective brands within the
LCMS, from local churches out toinstitutions and seminaries and
(21:16):
Concordia and the LCMS ingeneral.
I think we need to be aware ofwhat people who are not in our
organization are saying about us, about us, um, and and I don't
know again, this is.
This is very like.
I'm a part of the brand of the,of the lcms, so I take
responsibility for what we cantake responsibility for.
(21:36):
I don't know that the, thewider brand is, is strong for us
.
I think we need some tune-ups,both in our local local churches
as well as the LCMS Inc from StLouis and then across the world
.
So let's just talk.
It's all about vision.
It's all about casting andtelling a better story.
So how do you pray?
(21:57):
The local church and the LCMSin general start to recognize
brands, start to tell adifferent story and and start to
have a brand, because it needsto be a wider brand that reaches
it.
And this is the complexity oflike even think about LCMS brand
modification.
It needs to be a wide storythat reaches from rural to very,
(22:20):
very confessional, and I I'mconfessional but like
conservative, um, very, veryliturgical, you know, on one end
of the spectrum.
But then you've got otherchurches that are very
liturgical, but also you knowwe're going to have different
types of worship experiencesthat are centered in modern
instrumentation etc.
And churches that are lookingto go on mission.
(22:42):
I don't so landing this plane.
James, if anybody's listened toLead Time for a while, you know
, you know kind of where I don'tthink we're telling all of the
stories that are taking place inthe LCMS.
That's one of the beautifulthings about best practices
conference you get to hear allthese different types of stories
that shape the widerunderstanding of who we are as a
brand in the LCMS.
(23:02):
Any kind of comments there,james?
Speaker 4 (23:06):
That's where I let pastor speak.
No, I try not to get involvedin that part of the story as
much, but just again, from myperspective, from the work that
I do, I think a lot of it comesback to being relational and
being community driven makingsure that you're reaching out
into your community and sharingthe love of Christ with the
(23:28):
people outside of your specific,you know, one kind of person,
and so opening your doors to allsorts of different people,
offering events that allow allsorts of different types of
people to come in the doors.
And then I just think it'sabout being authentic, too, and
really living out your faith,and so it's great to say this
(23:50):
stuff on the website, but, likewe talked about in the beginning
of the podcast, if you're notliving that out, if the people
of your, your church, aren'tliving that faith out in the
community and having thoserelationships where people see
them and go, I want to get in onwhat they've got.
Um, you can say whatever youwant on the website, it's not
going to make a difference.
And so I think that's reallyimportant, and I think you're
really seeing that shift in thechurch too, of coming back to
(24:11):
this idea of you know, makingsure that we love the people
around us and show them the loveof Christ through what we're
doing and the actions that we'retaking.
And that comes back to to.
You know what we talked aboutin the beginning, about why I do
the Christ through my vocation,and I think you know, when I
started my career early on Ididn't see that connection and I
(24:33):
remember having that kind oflike feeling of what am I doing
in the world if this work isn'treflecting, you know, jesus in a
very specific way, and I thinkthere's both.
You can do it both ways.
You know it can be veryspecific church related design
work, but how also, am I showingthe love of Christ to the other
work that I'm doing and how canI make sure that my business
reflects that?
Speaker 3 (24:54):
Yeah, when I think about the brand of the early
church, marked by two thingsFirst, they refused to worship
the emperor, which made a lot ofpeople really angry, but then
also, they loved each other.
Right, this was the story thatwas being shared Like, this is
these weird people that just goabove and beyond to love each
other and care for the community, and that was very attractive
(25:16):
to people.
That was a brand that thechurch held, even though there
were certain things that were,like the community might have
thought, strange.
Hey, they're, you know, they'reeating the flesh and drinking
the blood of Christ.
This is weird.
What is that all about?
And they won't worship theemperor.
What's with these strange people?
But, man, look at how they'reloving each other, like, look at
the way that they care forwidows and orphans.
(25:36):
Look at how they care forpeople when they're sick.
Right, this was the brand ofthe early church and was one of
the things that made the churchintriguing to people.
Hey, I want to come try it out.
I want to see what thiscommunity is all about.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
Yeah Well, they were turning the world upside down at
17.
And they were willing to.
So the two marks Jack I meannot calling anybody, but Jesus
Lord that led to immensesacrifice, even willing to give
up their lives and who gives uptheir life for a lie?
Right, it's because Jesus saidbodily risen from the dead, and
so everything else is just gravyLike you can take my life.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
I've already been crucified and risen with Christ
and he's going to raise me aremarkable courage.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
He's going to raise me up and I guess if I could
pray for one thing in the LCMS,it would be like we would have
that sort of robust courage togo out into our communities to
share the love of Jesus, to, yes, share wonderful, good doctrine
, but so that when we go out itwouldn't be about you've got to
look like this, think like this,act like this.
(26:41):
We're on mission to love you,meet you exactly where you're at
and invite you into a living,active, vibrant relationship
with God, the God of theuniverse, evidence, through his
son, the power of the HolySpirit.
But then, just like, you'resaying, jack, that you wouldn't
have and maybe this is a goodway to say it too that you
wouldn't have to be a Lutheran,you wouldn't have to have it all
figured out.
And this is very this.
(27:02):
You want to talk aboutauthenticity, james.
This is where it goes for,especially with young people,
like, will you actually meet mewhere I'm at All of my failings
and I know I've got some beliefsystems that are out of
alignment with the Word of God,I don't know exactly what those
are the young person may say butwill you meet me where I'm at,
love me enough to invite me intothis family before I got it all
(27:24):
figured out.
And that has to be our posture,jack and James, in this
post-Christian secular day andage.
It just has to.
I don't know how else we'regoing to go about it If we're
going out to find the Lutherans,like this church.
Right, our church, christGreenfield, is planted because
Lutherans were coming to thevalley.
There are very, very, very fewLutherans now, even in a
(27:46):
migratory place like the valley,coming here saying you know
what I got to find the localLCMS church.
No, there's Mormons, there'spre-Christians, there's people
that are all over the map.
And will they know us?
What is our brand?
Will they know us as a place?
I could go there and I couldmaybe meet Jesus there.
What would that look like?
(28:06):
Even if I'm a mess right, evenif I'm a hot mess for sure.
So yeah, james, anything moreto say there as we're coming
down the hall, yeah.
Speaker 4 (28:12):
Have you talked to anyone from the youth gathering
this year?
Do you know the theme of that?
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Isn't it?
Speaker 4 (28:19):
Oh, Endure.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Endure.
Thank you yeah.
Speaker 4 (28:21):
And so I was on the original committee that came up
with that theme, and that'sexactly what we talked about.
Is that, especially with theyouth today?
Um, what are they going through?
What types of things can wehelp them, um, figure out as a
church body and and really helpthem understand how to live with
Christ through all of thedifferent problems, all the
different struggles, all thedifferent things that they have?
(28:43):
And I think you're absolutelyright that we need to find
people where they're at and helpthem walk along that path,
regardless of what that lookslike.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Last question how is Jesus giving you joy, right?
Speaker 4 (28:55):
now, james man, there's a lot of ways right now.
My son was just baptized lastweekend and so that's awesome,
and raising my kids in theChristian faith has just been an
incredible blessing.
You know, watching them grow upat St Lawrence and having other
people feed into them and seeingthat relationship grow, seeing
the types of stuff that theycome home and talk to me about.
(29:15):
We were just at the suppertable the other day and we asked
the question who's your bestfriend?
And my middle child, who's inkindergarten?
Right away said Jesus, and myolder child, who had already
talked, was like, yeah, me too,and it was just really
incredible to see that.
You know, that relationshipalready starting to grow and
flourish and I love, I lovewatching the love of Jesus
(29:35):
through my children and thenseeing you know my ability to
create for the creator is is somuch fun when I can create a
message that you know, like atthe youth gathering, that I can
see for all of these peoplecoming and that I can see how
it's reflecting the gifts thatGod has given me, and so those
types of things are what bringme a lot of joy right now.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
James, you are a gift to the body of Christ, to the
Lutheran Church, missouri Synod.
So glad you're in a ministryfamily and you're using your
gifts for ministry.
And in the marketplace which isministry you stand on the
shoulders of those.
So, tim Seleska, one of myfavorite profs, he's your uncle,
is that right he is, it'sinteresting.
Speaker 4 (30:19):
Anytime we get a vicar over here, they always ask
me that question, and it usedto be my grandpa.
My grandpa had a lot of peoplethat he taught and so it's fun
to be in that lineage andabsolutely.
And so it's fun to be in thatlineage and absolutely and
that's part of why I reallyenjoy the work that I get to do
is that it's very rare that I gointo one of these things
without somebody being like Ithink I might know somebody
(30:40):
related to you.
And so my middle name isactually Timothy, and so that's
usually how I follow that up.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
There you go.
Hey man, if people want toconnect with you, we're not
giving out any other websitedesigner names, it's only James
Seleska.
How can they connect with youand your work there, brother?
Speaker 4 (30:56):
Yeah, so Seleskacom is my website, so it has
everything you need to contactme there, and so that'd be the
best way to do it, seleskacom.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
Right, I'm glad you got that name.
It seems like someone else inthat family lineage would have
grabbed Seleskacom.
You've got the corner market onit there, james.
Well, good stuff, hit them up,seleskacom, if you'd like some
help with your brand web design,and it's one of those things.
To close, brand identificationis not a set it and forget it,
(31:30):
right.
Jack, it's constantly analyzingwhat are we saying about
ourselves and what are they inthe community saying about who
we are, and is there connectionthere, Jack?
Any final comments?
Speaker 3 (31:43):
Yeah, I mean we have a rhythm.
We call it our metrics Mondayand we are constantly polling
Every single month.
We're polling people.
We're doing net promoter.
You're familiar with netpromoter probably, but it's
basically trying to reverseengineer what are people saying
about us so that we understandthe brand Is what people are
saying about us the same thatwe're trying to hope people will
say about us through ourassertion of our brand.
And we look at this and we doanalysis of every single month.
(32:06):
Are we on brand?
Are we on brand or are weveering off of brand?
So, yeah, my encouragement forpeople is to just you know it's,
it's something that must becurated constantly and if it's,
if it's not thought about it, ifit's not intentional, then
you'll lose it.
So that's just a word ofencouragement for people.
But you can be an intentionalabout it and make positive
(32:27):
differences on it.
It is something you can do, sothat's the good thing about it.
Yeah, go ahead bro.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Yeah, man, If you're someone that doesn't like
challenging conversations, don'ttalk about brand.
That's right.
Right, Because it's going to bewell.
We think we're this, but we'reobviously not this yet.
We like to aspire toward this,but we're not this yet.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
Go ahead, jack.
Yeah well, sometimes theanalysis of your brand, actually
hearing what the community says, is an opportunity for
repentance.
It's an opportunity forconfession and absolution and
it's an opportunity for, I wouldsay, sometimes hard, difficult
conversations and an opportunityto die and be reborn again in
the uh, as uh you know, in themission of Christ and moving
(33:11):
forward with it.
So, um, you know, the good newsis that, uh, we all, you know,
confession and absolution is forall of us, including church
leaders that maybe have missedthe target on trying to reach
the community, and every singleday is a new day with, uh, with
the absolution of.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
Christ, amen, amen.
It's a great day to grow, togrow up into Jesus, who is our
leader, our Lord.
He loves you, regardless of howsolid your brand is as a church
leader, like it doesn't matter,so there's freedom here in this
conversation right, there's afreedom to say, okay, let's just
take that 1% next step to growas a ministry offering it all to
(33:51):
the Lord.
It's all His.
We're just stewarding it in ourshort days.
So this is a lead timeconversation.
It's been kind of a longerconversation around the topic of
brand.
I hope it is a blessing to youas you take your next steps as a
leader, whether it's in aformal vocational role or out in
the marketplace.
You are a leader, a missionary,bringing the love and light of
(34:12):
Jesus into a dark and dyingworld.
It's a good day.
Go and make it a great day.
Wonderful work, James.
Thanks for hanging with us,brother.
Speaker 4 (34:17):
Thank you so much, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
You've been listening to lead time, a podcast of the
unite leadership collective.
The ULC's mission is tocollaborate with the local
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leaders through biblicalLutheran doctrine and innovative
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Subscribe to our channel, thengo to theuniteleadershiporg to
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(34:41):
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.
Thanks for listening and staytuned for next week's episode.
This is Lead Time.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Welcome to Lead Time, Tim Allman here.
Jack Kauberg in the house.
How you doing, Jack?
Speaker 3 (00:08):
I'm doing fantastic, man.
It's been a delightful week,very busy week, connecting with
a lot of people.
Depending on when we post this,there's a little bit of a time
shift here, but we're justfinishing BPM in the Phoenix
area, as well as meeting withsome of the most mission-minded
people in our entire nationalchurch body, so it's been very
invigorating, I think, reallyexciting it was.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Lutherpalooza for a whole week, everybody and their
mom descending upon the valley,maybe their grandma and grandpa
too, especially with the missionorientation in the Missouri
Synod.
There are so many, jack, as Iget to hang out, so many amazing
ministries, men and women offaith who are in maybe full-time
vocational ministry, but Italked to a whole bunch of lay
(00:51):
leaders, elders and those thatmay be on boards that are just
looking to cast new vision toreach new people.
I think there's a spirit ofoptimism and hope.
Over 3,000 people came to theBest Practices ministry and so
shout out to Christ Church,lutheran and Pastor Schrank and
their team you want to talkabout a brand, over the top
hospitality, caring for peoplefor three days.
(01:14):
So, yeah, I'm juiced coming outof that as well and, listener,
I pray, you're excited to get tomeet James Seleska.
James reached out to me andjust kind of like a number of
people, saying hey, thanks forhaving the conversation about,
yes, theology, yes, mission, butalso looking at different
topics that we think the churchought to be aware of and this is
going to be a masterclass interms of brand.
(01:36):
Let me tell you a little bitabout James.
James is in Frankenmuth,michigan Now.
If you know anything about theLutheran Church Missouri Synod.
This is like the motherland ofthe heartland of the origin
story of the LCMS, and I'm goingto let him tell a little bit of
his story.
But he was just telling us he'shelped over 12 service
companies industries there inFrankenmuth with their redesign
(01:59):
around their brand and hestarted his own company toward
that end and is now starting towork with churches as well, as a
lot of churches are saying, hey, maybe it's time for us to
reconsider the value of brands.
So, james, thanks for beingwith us today.
On Lead Time, brother, how areyou doing?
Speaker 4 (02:14):
Great.
Thank you so much for having me.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Yeah, this is going to be great.
So what else?
What did I leave out in yourstory and what you're kind of
offering right now, james?
Speaker 4 (02:30):
Yeah, so my story starts a little bit further back
than that, and so I've beenraised Lutheran my whole life.
My grandpa actually taught at aseminary, fort Wayne, for a
while.
My uncle is at a seminary rightnow.
I have another uncle who was aleader of Concordia, and my dad
is a teacher.
My mom is a teacher.
All of them are in Lutheraneducation.
And so I went to Concordia,wisconsin, and in school.
In high school I really didn'twant to take a career where I
(02:51):
had to write papers or taketests, and art seemed like a
natural progression for me, andso I got into design.
It seemed like a great place tobe, but one of the things that
was always in the back of myhead was how do I use this
career to further the kingdom ofGod?
And that's been something thatI've worked towards over the
past 20 years is trying tofigure out where do the skills
(03:12):
that God has given me exist inthe marketplace in a way that I
can help out churches?
And so I worked at anadvertising agency out of
college for a while, and then Imet my wife and moved to
Frankenmuth, and it was therethat I started to get into my
own stuff.
I wasn't really intentionallydoing that, except that there
wasn't a lot of places aroundthat were doing the type of
thing that I wanted to do, andso my business has really
(03:34):
evolved over that time andbecause of my strong Lutheran
heritage I've been able toconnect with the people.
I think people say you know,it's not what you know, it's who
you know, and so I know a lotof pastors.
I broomed with two pastors andI was at Concordia, and so it
was a natural progression thatthat's where my business grew,
and so, along with the businessthat I do in Frankenmuth for
(03:55):
local tourism companies, here Ido a lot of church related
branding and then also outsideof you know churches.
I do work with districts andthe LCMS as well.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
That's a deep need right now.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
It's a huge need.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
Churches need to be looking at their brand with
intentionality.
I don't care if you're a largerchurch small church, like
identifying.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Is our brand helping us reach more people with the
gospel or is it hurting us?
So let's talk brand.
Why is understanding brandJames important, both in the
marketplace or is it hurting us?
So let's talk brand.
Why is understanding brandJames important, both in the
marketplace and in the localchurch?
Speaker 4 (04:30):
Oh well, you've kind of already said that already,
but it's about building trust.
It's about helping people whoare walking into your front door
or viewing you online establishability to see who you are and
what you're about, and it's thattrust that allows them to see
your consistency across all thetouch points as well, and so
(04:51):
when they're watching videosfrom your pastors or when
they're reading about what youbelieve or what type of
activities you have, they wantto be able to tell right away
this is a place that I can goand feel comfortable and
welcomed and understand whatyou're about, and so that brand
really helps kind of give youthat doorway into that story
(05:11):
right off the bat.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Yeah, yeah.
What are misperceptions that weoften have about brand?
Because I think when mostpeople think about this, they
think look, they think design,they think logo.
But brand is way, way biggerthan that.
Right, James?
Yeah, 100%.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
I would say that, and it's interesting.
I think churches, especiallyright now, are realizing that it
goes beyond the logo.
So a lot of the places that I'mworking with are asking me to
design a logo.
But then what is it?
How does that reach out intothe other touch points?
What are some of the other waysthat we can use that logo to
tell our story, and how doesthat logo reflect the story that
we're already trying to tell?
(05:50):
And so, like you said, it'smuch more than just a logo.
It's all the different thingsthat help contribute to your
church's story and it's all thedifferent pieces and parts that,
when people are interactingwith you, they can get and they
can feel when people areinteracting with you, they can
get and they can feel yeah, Ithink that's great.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Let's talk more about story.
People are we're all storiedindividuals.
We see the world throughstories.
So get a little bit moredetailed in terms of how your
company helps tell a story, andyou can use an example or two.
And we've got a lot oflisteners, right, james, who are
in maybe smaller churches.
I already know the devil wantsto sway our minds like I can't,
I won't, you'll never.
I think there's the unfortunatething about the marketplace
(06:33):
today, if you will, the churchmissional marketplace is you've
got a lot of other churches andministries that you compare
yourself to and you're like man,I can never do that.
Satan's so wily man.
So let's get into how would youhelp, like a small,
medium-sized church, tell theirstory and how is that connected
to brand James?
Speaker 4 (06:53):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean number one.
It starts with your mission andyour vision.
And so what are those thingsthat you're trying to hit and
who is that person that you'retrying to reach?
And so I was working with achurch recently that really
wants to hit outside of thetypical person that's attending
their service and wants to reachinto the community to some of
these people who are coming andwho have a need that's greater
to.
Ooh, just a second, sorry, mylight just turned off.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Sorry, all good, all good.
If you're watching, I can seeit almost looks like the
background of James' office.
Oh, that looks like your child.
How many children do you have,james?
I have four children.
What are their?
Speaker 4 (07:30):
ages.
Well, I just had a newborn, andso he's a month old, and then
I've got one that's in preschool, kindergarten and third grade.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Wow, that's so good.
Enjoy your moment, dude.
So, yeah, keep going on interms of story.
The church you're helping rightnow tell their story, yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:46):
So if they want to reach a person that's outside of
their typical church goer, howdo they tell the story?
What does their mission looklike?
What does their vision looklike in order to reflect things
that that person needs?
And so if that person is maybea little bit more lower income,
how can we tell a story thatallows that person to feel
comfortable and confident whenthey walk in the door?
(08:08):
What are the things when theyland on the website that show
that our doors are open and wewant to reach out to people like
them?
Speaker 3 (08:16):
James, I think you brought up mission statements
and, like value statements, Ithink this is a key thing for
organizations is they arepowerful brand building tools,
but in order for them to be that, you actually have to abide by
them.
You can't they can't just besomething theoretical that
you're aspiring to.
They actually have to drivebehavior of the local church and
(08:39):
if it doesn't, it can actuallybe harmful.
If you sit there and say allthese things in your mission
statement about being welcomingto people but then when you show
up there's very poorhospitality.
People don't care what thatmission statement says.
They actually care about theexperience that they have.
Right.
Talk about that a little bit.
Maybe sometimes a disconnectthat might happen between a
mission statement and actuallyhow people behave.
Speaker 4 (08:59):
Yeah, that's really important.
One of the things that I reallytry to do in my work is make
sure that I'm aligning with that, in that what they say is what
I'm pushing them and helpingthem align with, and so what I
don't want to do is come in andsay I think you should be this
and that doesn't align with whatthey think.
And so you're absolutely right,other people on your staff or
(09:25):
even your congregation thatstory is irrelevant, because
people walk in the door and, allof a sudden, what you've been
pushing online is different thanwhat they experience when they
come in, and so it is reallyabout aligning all the various
touch points, and that's comesback to that idea of branding.
So it's not just what does thatlogo look like on the website,
but what is the story you'retelling the website and does
that story then reflected whenyou walk in the doors?
Is your welcome centerreiterating that is the stuff
(09:45):
that you're handing out,reiterating that story?
Is your bulletin reflectingthat story?
And how are these differentelements, all kind of giving
pieces, that when the personwalks in the door, they feel
like they've already met you andthey already know who you are
and they already know whatyou're about?
And again, you know it comesall the way down to what is the
pastor up front and how does thestory come out from that
(10:06):
perspective as well.
And so it really is to me aboutfinding that alignment and
making sure that then that'swhat's filtered down through all
the different touch points.
So rather than kind of a youknow from the bottom up, it's a
top down approach and makingsure that everything comes in
lines.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
That's.
That's so good, jack.
I'm thinking one of ourtaglines is you belong here?
You probably wouldn't put onyour website you don't belong
here.
Like every church is going tosay, yeah, we want to be about
hospitality.
Go ahead, jack.
Maybe they do, maybe they do.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
Sometimes well, not explicitly, but sometimes what a
church will do is they'll frontfirst foremost.
I don't be careful aboutcalling out a specific church.
There's a church that put righton the front of the website we
are proud I'm trying to sayunashamed of our.
(11:01):
This is like the first thing.
They start right off the bat.
We are proudly liturgical,confessional church, right.
So that's great.
They're owning what they love.
But it also says like if that'snot where you are, then you're
not going to feel welcome here,right?
So you're already right off thebat saying this is who we're
for and this is kind of whowe're not for by that standpoint
we're narrowing.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Yeah, James, talk about that, because that is a
dance.
I mean, we want to be true towho we are as confessional
Lutherans, but we also believeconfessional Lutheranism should
be for everybody Like, even ifyou don't have that sort of a
(11:42):
brand indicator.
Speaker 4 (11:43):
You didn't grow up Lutheran LCMS, whatever, like
the doors are still wide openfor you.
How do you help churches, kindof with that dance James,
absolutely, I mean.
I think a really important partof the website is the beliefs
page and I think that's whereyou get into that type of
specific and make sure thatpeople understand these are the
touch points.
These are the things that webelieve in, this is what we
stand by and this is what youcan see reflected in our service
and the way that we worship.
I think the rest of the websiteshould really feel like a
welcome center.
And so if you think about, likewhen you visit a city and you go
(12:06):
to their, if you go to thewebsite, what are the things
that they're talking about thatmake you feel like, ooh, I want
to check that out, I'minterested in that, and then get
into the details of what that'slike, where the events held.
You know what kind of size is akid friendly, that type of thing
.
And so if you approach a churchwebsite the same way, you get
that balance of you still wantto give them the core, the meat
(12:27):
and potatoes of what you believe.
You don't want to hide that,but you also want to make sure
that they feel comfortable andconfident walking in and they're
excited about the experience,and so what are some of the ways
that you can tell that story onthe website and give them that
feeling of there's a lot of funthings going on here.
There's a lot of interestingthings going on.
This is a dynamic, excitingchurch and I know that it's
rooted in what I believe and Ican stand strong in what they're
(12:51):
doing because at the core ofwhat they do is what they
believe.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
Right, yeah, well, before you have something to
learn.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Yeah, let's talk about web design, jack.
One of our major dances atGrace Greenfield is the pull
toward the website needs to beall things for all people.
The pull toward the websiteneeds to be all things for all
people, and the website is myone-stop shop for the member as
well as for the guest, andthat's maybe not a best practice
(13:18):
.
So what are three principleslocal churches could take to
improve the first impression ontheir website?
James?
Speaker 4 (13:22):
Yeah, I think you really nailed it there.
Clarity over complexity is abig thing, and so making sure
that it's simple, it's easy tonavigate and it's interesting, I
think a lot of times you try tothrow everything up there and
then that message gets dilutedand lost over the course of the
website.
And so what are the key,essential parts?
And so I work a lot withchurches up front with designing
(13:44):
that flow, that user flow of.
When they land on the website,where is it that we want to
direct them?
What's the most important callto action?
A lot of the times it's getthem in the doors to visit the
church.
And what are some of the things, what are some of the types of
messaging that we'll hear, thatthey'll hear that will allow
them to feel comfortablevisiting the church.
The other thing too, like yousaid or you kind of alluded to,
(14:05):
is the idea that, um, mobilefirst is really important right
now.
So websites are really important, but they're doing it on their
phone.
So if that website doesn't workwell on the phone, if it's not
connecting with them, um, youknow the, the text is too small
or the pictures aren't centered,or or whatever, it's really
important that your websiteworks well on the um mobile, and
then I think the big one that alot of churches that I see
(14:28):
struggle with right now isauthenticity in their
storytelling and then justreally solid imagery.
And so if you again you look atthe churches that are doing this
well, they have fantasticimages that make you feel like
you belong there and that youthat it's a trustworthy
establishment and and I think, acurrent establishment as well,
(14:50):
and so constantly updating thatstuff, making sure that the
event photos are current andthat it's exciting and again we
go back to that idea of avisitor center.
When you land on those sites,you feel like I can be here, I
want to be here, and that's whatwe want to see from a church
website as well.
Is that, yes, there's worshiphere, but what are some other
exciting ways that I can getinvolved with this community?
(15:12):
What else are they doingbesides that?
Speaker 3 (15:14):
Yeah, I love this image of it's a digital welcome
center, right center in yourcourtyard or your narthex or
whatever, and you know youraudience is guests or people who
are new trying to get moreconnected to the church.
What do you have available forpeople in that welcome center?
Well, that's basically what youhave on your website as well.
(15:36):
That is the audience thatyou're dealing with and I tell
people, virtually 100% of peoplewho are guests to your church
will check out your websitebefore they're coming.
They're trying to see you knowwhat are they looking at,
they're seeing.
Are you weird?
Is this place weird?
You know it's kind of.
You know.
Is it welcoming?
What do I do with my kids?
How should I dress?
What are you know?
(15:56):
Obviously basic things likewhat are the times and how long
is the service and stuff likethat.
But people have questionsbefore showing up and you know
the how you communicate topeople before they show up, as a
form of hospitality, and theyreally appreciate being informed
about these things, right?
So thinking about the websiteprimarily is hospitality towards
(16:16):
guests, man, and so then, whatdo you do with stuff that
members like member resources,like hey, we're, we're part of
the community.
What we do is we put that inour app.
You know it's like hey, thewebsite is for our guests, the
app is for our members, right.
Every, every single thing,every single insider resource
you could possibly imagine is onour app, right, but everything
(16:39):
for the guests is going to be onour website.
Speaker 4 (16:41):
Absolutely yeah, and and that's the way that I design
all the websites, and sothere's a member portal where
everything that's important tothem exists there.
Like you said a lot of times,that exists within an app if
you're doing it well, but wewant to make sure that the
website is very visitor focusedand, primarily, most of the
churches that I work with arehow, when people land on the
website, how, when the visitorsland on the website, do we get
(17:02):
them in the door so that then wecan make those personal
connections, because it's greaton the website, but it's best,
you know, one-on-one when theywalk in, and so making sure that
it's focused on that is isreally important.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
So obviously we're going to be connecting people to
, to your company and yourservices.
That's awesome at the end ofthis, but are there if
somebody's looking to redesigntheir their website?
You know who are some of yourpreferred partners in that work,
james.
Speaker 4 (17:30):
I don't really have any preferred me obviously Okay,
you do website.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
Okay, well then, don't throw any other names out,
just go to James Alaska that'sall you need to know.
Speaker 4 (17:37):
No, there's a lot of great Christian adjacent or
other organizations that workwith churches.
Specifically, there's one inIndiana called Fish Hook.
They do fantastic work.
I'm a big fan of the stuff thatthey do.
Um.
There's another one called umoh, plain Joe.
They do a lot of um, really bignon-denominational church work
(18:00):
and they do a lot ofarchitectural work and they're a
lot of fun to see with theprojects that they're working on
.
Uh, I don't, I don't really havea lot of other.
You know, no one's going to.
Hopefully no one's coming to megoing.
Who do you recommend?
If you weren't to do this, whatwould you recommend?
But I know a lot of otherdesigners too.
It's really interesting to meto watch over the progression of
my career too.
(18:20):
Designers within the Christianspace are really starting to
turn a corner too.
So I talked about how churchesare starting to realize that
design is important, butdesigners are really.
There's some really fantasticwork done by Christian designers
for these churches and you'restarting to see these churches
have a really impressivecreative team that's not only
(18:42):
producing the content that's inon Sunday, but also other
materials that are just reallyreally well done and so becoming
a clearinghouse for that typeof stuff I think in today's
society is another place wherethese churches really have the
opportunity to grow, and I tryto push that to that idea of
what, besides Sunday morning,are you doing to feed people
(19:04):
what they need?
Speaker 3 (19:08):
to feed people what they need.
An interesting thought as itcomes to website and we've put a
lot of thought into this is ifsomebody were to tell you in
advance that they were coming asa guest, what would you do for
that person to make them feelwelcome?
On Sunday and I don't know thatwe always use that website as
an opportunity to have peoplelet us know that they're coming
and then make preparations forthat person to feel exceedingly
(19:30):
welcomed in their firstexperience with the church.
Any thoughts about that?
What you've seen as bestpractices?
Speaker 4 (19:36):
Yeah, no, you're right, absolutely, and that's
why that plan your visit page isso fundamentally important to
the church's website is what arethe things that you can say to
that individual?
Again, if we go back to whowe're targeting, who's your
target audience?
What are the types of thingsthat they need?
What are the types ofexperiences that they're having
that will allow them to go?
This feels like something I canget on board with.
(19:56):
There's another church here inMichigan that's doing a great
job and they've got a bunch ofother ministries that kind of
feed into their church, and sothey're offering things like a
coffee house, and I thinkthey've even got like a place
where you can go and get yourcar fixed, and so all these
websites are kind of backed bythis church and allow those
people who are coming in throughother avenues to come back to
(20:17):
the church.
And I think that that plan yourvisit kind of page should have
some of that ability to say, hey, here's who we are, um, and
most of all, we want you to comeand meet us.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
We were kind of talking about how the and you've
worked in the LCMS.
Just to let you know some ofsome of James work he's a lead
designer for the LCMS youthgathering, working with websites
, photography for churches allover the U?
S and districts and otherChristian organizations.
Praise God, jack and I havesaid for some time and this is
(20:52):
all based on a relationship andcare and because of the, I don't
know polarizing, politicized,tribal nature, not just in the
world, but can also take placein the LCMS, and it's very
unfortunate, I believe ourrespective brands within the
LCMS, from local churches out toinstitutions and seminaries and
(21:16):
Concordia and the LCMS ingeneral.
I think we need to be aware ofwhat people who are not in our
organization are saying about us, about us, um, and and I don't
know again, this is.
This is very like.
I'm a part of the brand of the,of the lcms, so I take
responsibility for what we cantake responsibility for.
(21:36):
I don't know that the, thewider brand is, is strong for us
.
I think we need some tune-ups,both in our local local churches
as well as the LCMS Inc from StLouis and then across the world
.
So let's just talk.
It's all about vision.
It's all about casting andtelling a better story.
So how do you pray?
(21:57):
The local church and the LCMSin general start to recognize
brands, start to tell adifferent story and and start to
have a brand, because it needsto be a wider brand that reaches
it.
And this is the complexity oflike even think about LCMS brand
modification.
It needs to be a wide storythat reaches from rural to very,
(22:20):
very confessional, and I I'mconfessional but like
conservative, um, very, veryliturgical, you know, on one end
of the spectrum.
But then you've got otherchurches that are very
liturgical, but also you knowwe're going to have different
types of worship experiencesthat are centered in modern
instrumentation etc.
And churches that are lookingto go on mission.
(22:42):
I don't so landing this plane.
James, if anybody's listened toLead Time for a while, you know
, you know kind of where I don'tthink we're telling all of the
stories that are taking place inthe LCMS.
That's one of the beautifulthings about best practices
conference you get to hear allthese different types of stories
that shape the widerunderstanding of who we are as a
brand in the LCMS.
(23:02):
Any kind of comments there,james?
Speaker 4 (23:06):
That's where I let pastor speak.
No, I try not to get involvedin that part of the story as
much, but just again, from myperspective, from the work that
I do, I think a lot of it comesback to being relational and
being community driven makingsure that you're reaching out
into your community and sharingthe love of Christ with the
(23:28):
people outside of your specific,you know, one kind of person,
and so opening your doors to allsorts of different people,
offering events that allow allsorts of different types of
people to come in the doors.
And then I just think it'sabout being authentic, too, and
really living out your faith,and so it's great to say this
(23:50):
stuff on the website, but, likewe talked about in the beginning
of the podcast, if you're notliving that out, if the people
of your, your church, aren'tliving that faith out in the
community and having thoserelationships where people see
them and go, I want to get in onwhat they've got.
Um, you can say whatever youwant on the website, it's not
going to make a difference.
And so I think that's reallyimportant, and I think you're
really seeing that shift in thechurch too, of coming back to
(24:11):
this idea of you know, makingsure that we love the people
around us and show them the loveof Christ through what we're
doing and the actions that we'retaking.
And that comes back to to.
You know what we talked aboutin the beginning, about why I do
the Christ through my vocation,and I think you know, when I
started my career early on Ididn't see that connection and I
(24:33):
remember having that kind oflike feeling of what am I doing
in the world if this work isn'treflecting, you know, jesus in a
very specific way, and I thinkthere's both.
You can do it both ways.
You know it can be veryspecific church related design
work, but how also, am I showingthe love of Christ to the other
work that I'm doing and how canI make sure that my business
reflects that?
Speaker 3 (24:54):
Yeah, when I think about the brand of the early
church, marked by two thingsFirst, they refused to worship
the emperor, which made a lot ofpeople really angry, but then
also, they loved each other.
Right, this was the story thatwas being shared Like, this is
these weird people that just goabove and beyond to love each
other and care for the community, and that was very attractive
(25:16):
to people.
That was a brand that thechurch held, even though there
were certain things that were,like the community might have
thought, strange.
Hey, they're, you know, they'reeating the flesh and drinking
the blood of Christ.
This is weird.
What is that all about?
And they won't worship theemperor.
What's with these strange people?
But, man, look at how they'reloving each other, like, look at
the way that they care forwidows and orphans.
(25:36):
Look at how they care forpeople when they're sick.
Right, this was the brand ofthe early church and was one of
the things that made the churchintriguing to people.
Hey, I want to come try it out.
I want to see what thiscommunity is all about.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
Yeah Well, they were turning the world upside down at
17.
And they were willing to.
So the two marks Jack I meannot calling anybody, but Jesus
Lord that led to immensesacrifice, even willing to give
up their lives and who gives uptheir life for a lie?
Right, it's because Jesus saidbodily risen from the dead, and
so everything else is just gravyLike you can take my life.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
I've already been crucified and risen with Christ
and he's going to raise me aremarkable courage.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
He's going to raise me up and I guess if I could
pray for one thing in the LCMS,it would be like we would have
that sort of robust courage togo out into our communities to
share the love of Jesus, to, yes, share wonderful, good doctrine
, but so that when we go out itwouldn't be about you've got to
look like this, think like this,act like this.
(26:41):
We're on mission to love you,meet you exactly where you're at
and invite you into a living,active, vibrant relationship
with God, the God of theuniverse, evidence, through his
son, the power of the HolySpirit.
But then, just like, you'resaying, jack, that you wouldn't
have and maybe this is a goodway to say it too that you
wouldn't have to be a Lutheran,you wouldn't have to have it all
figured out.
And this is very this.
(27:02):
You want to talk aboutauthenticity, james.
This is where it goes for,especially with young people,
like, will you actually meet mewhere I'm at All of my failings
and I know I've got some beliefsystems that are out of
alignment with the Word of God,I don't know exactly what those
are the young person may say butwill you meet me where I'm at,
love me enough to invite me intothis family before I got it all
(27:24):
figured out.
And that has to be our posture,jack and James, in this
post-Christian secular day andage.
It just has to.
I don't know how else we'regoing to go about it If we're
going out to find the Lutherans,like this church.
Right, our church, christGreenfield, is planted because
Lutherans were coming to thevalley.
There are very, very, very fewLutherans now, even in a
(27:46):
migratory place like the valley,coming here saying you know
what I got to find the localLCMS church.
No, there's Mormons, there'spre-Christians, there's people
that are all over the map.
And will they know us?
What is our brand?
Will they know us as a place?
I could go there and I couldmaybe meet Jesus there.
What would that look like?
(28:06):
Even if I'm a mess right, evenif I'm a hot mess for sure.
So yeah, james, anything moreto say there as we're coming
down the hall, yeah.
Speaker 4 (28:12):
Have you talked to anyone from the youth gathering
this year?
Do you know the theme of that?
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Isn't it?
Speaker 4 (28:19):
Oh, Endure.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Endure.
Thank you yeah.
Speaker 4 (28:21):
And so I was on the original committee that came up
with that theme, and that'sexactly what we talked about.
Is that, especially with theyouth today?
Um, what are they going through?
What types of things can wehelp them, um, figure out as a
church body and and really helpthem understand how to live with
Christ through all of thedifferent problems, all the
different struggles, all thedifferent things that they have?
(28:43):
And I think you're absolutelyright that we need to find
people where they're at and helpthem walk along that path,
regardless of what that lookslike.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Last question how is Jesus giving you joy, right?
Speaker 4 (28:55):
now, james man, there's a lot of ways right now.
My son was just baptized lastweekend and so that's awesome,
and raising my kids in theChristian faith has just been an
incredible blessing.
You know, watching them grow upat St Lawrence and having other
people feed into them and seeingthat relationship grow, seeing
the types of stuff that theycome home and talk to me about.
(29:15):
We were just at the suppertable the other day and we asked
the question who's your bestfriend?
And my middle child, who's inkindergarten?
Right away said Jesus, and myolder child, who had already
talked, was like, yeah, me too,and it was just really
incredible to see that.
You know, that relationshipalready starting to grow and
flourish and I love, I lovewatching the love of Jesus
(29:35):
through my children and thenseeing you know my ability to
create for the creator is is somuch fun when I can create a
message that you know, like atthe youth gathering, that I can
see for all of these peoplecoming and that I can see how
it's reflecting the gifts thatGod has given me, and so those
types of things are what bringme a lot of joy right now.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
James, you are a gift to the body of Christ, to the
Lutheran Church, missouri Synod.
So glad you're in a ministryfamily and you're using your
gifts for ministry.
And in the marketplace which isministry you stand on the
shoulders of those.
So, tim Seleska, one of myfavorite profs, he's your uncle,
is that right he is, it'sinteresting.
Speaker 4 (30:19):
Anytime we get a vicar over here, they always ask
me that question, and it usedto be my grandpa.
My grandpa had a lot of peoplethat he taught and so it's fun
to be in that lineage andabsolutely.
And so it's fun to be in thatlineage and absolutely and
that's part of why I reallyenjoy the work that I get to do
is that it's very rare that I gointo one of these things
without somebody being like Ithink I might know somebody
(30:40):
related to you.
And so my middle name isactually Timothy, and so that's
usually how I follow that up.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
There you go.
Hey man, if people want toconnect with you, we're not
giving out any other websitedesigner names, it's only James
Seleska.
How can they connect with youand your work there, brother?
Speaker 4 (30:56):
Yeah, so Seleskacom is my website, so it has
everything you need to contactme there, and so that'd be the
best way to do it, seleskacom.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
Right, I'm glad you got that name.
It seems like someone else inthat family lineage would have
grabbed Seleskacom.
You've got the corner market onit there, james.
Well, good stuff, hit them up,seleskacom, if you'd like some
help with your brand web design,and it's one of those things.
To close, brand identificationis not a set it and forget it,
(31:30):
right.
Jack, it's constantly analyzingwhat are we saying about
ourselves and what are they inthe community saying about who
we are, and is there connectionthere, Jack?
Any final comments?
Speaker 3 (31:43):
Yeah, I mean we have a rhythm.
We call it our metrics Mondayand we are constantly polling
Every single month.
We're polling people.
We're doing net promoter.
You're familiar with netpromoter probably, but it's
basically trying to reverseengineer what are people saying
about us so that we understandthe brand Is what people are
saying about us the same thatwe're trying to hope people will
say about us through ourassertion of our brand.
And we look at this and we doanalysis of every single month.
(32:06):
Are we on brand?
Are we on brand or are weveering off of brand?
So, yeah, my encouragement forpeople is to just you know it's,
it's something that must becurated constantly and if it's,
if it's not thought about it, ifit's not intentional, then
you'll lose it.
So that's just a word ofencouragement for people.
But you can be an intentionalabout it and make positive
(32:27):
differences on it.
It is something you can do, sothat's the good thing about it.
Yeah, go ahead bro.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Yeah, man, If you're someone that doesn't like
challenging conversations, don'ttalk about brand.
That's right.
Right, Because it's going to bewell.
We think we're this, but we'reobviously not this yet.
We like to aspire toward this,but we're not this yet.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
Go ahead, jack.
Yeah well, sometimes theanalysis of your brand, actually
hearing what the community says, is an opportunity for
repentance.
It's an opportunity forconfession and absolution and
it's an opportunity for, I wouldsay, sometimes hard, difficult
conversations and an opportunityto die and be reborn again in
the uh, as uh you know, in themission of Christ and moving
(33:11):
forward with it.
So, um, you know, the good newsis that, uh, we all, you know,
confession and absolution is forall of us, including church
leaders that maybe have missedthe target on trying to reach
the community, and every singleday is a new day with, uh, with
the absolution of.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
Christ, amen, amen.
It's a great day to grow, togrow up into Jesus, who is our
leader, our Lord.
He loves you, regardless of howsolid your brand is as a church
leader, like it doesn't matter,so there's freedom here in this
conversation right, there's afreedom to say, okay, let's just
take that 1% next step to growas a ministry offering it all to
(33:51):
the Lord.
It's all His.
We're just stewarding it in ourshort days.
So this is a lead timeconversation.
It's been kind of a longerconversation around the topic of
brand.
I hope it is a blessing to youas you take your next steps as a
leader, whether it's in aformal vocational role or out in
the marketplace.
You are a leader, a missionary,bringing the love and light of
(34:12):
Jesus into a dark and dyingworld.
It's a good day.
Go and make it a great day.
Wonderful work, James.
Thanks for hanging with us,brother.
Speaker 4 (34:17):
Thank you so much, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
You've been listening to lead time, a podcast of the
unite leadership collective.
The ULC's mission is tocollaborate with the local
church to discover church todiscover, develop and deploy
leaders through biblicalLutheran doctrine and innovative
methods To partner with us inthis gospel message.
Subscribe to our channel, thengo to theuniteleadershiporg to
create your free login forexclusive material and resources
(34:41):
and then to explore ways inwhich you can sponsor an episode
.
Thanks for listening and staytuned for next week's episode.
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