May 13, 2025 • 45 mins
What does it mean to be "free" in a Lutheran context? Join us as we explore that question with President Micah Hjermstad of the Association of Free Lutheran Congregations. President Micah Hjermstad shares the history, structure, and vision of this distinctively autonomous Lutheran body. The conversation explores how congregational freedom and collaborative ministry can flourish together when centered on the gospel of Jesus Christ.
• History of the AFLC traces back to Norway in the 1800s as a reaction against state church control
• AFLC formed in 1962 when 40 congregations chose not to merge with the American Lutheran Church
• Now encompasses over 250 congregations across 26 states with international ministries
• Unique polity based on 12 fundamental principles that establish congregational autonomy
• National offices support rather than govern congregations through five separate corporations
• Congregations answer only to "the Word and the Spirit" without hierarchical authority
• Vision focusing on maintaining biblical authority while leaning into "the freedom of the gospel"
• Leadership development primarily occurs at the congregational level with new national initiatives
• Majority lay representation required on all national boards
• Creating environments for gracious disagreement while maintaining unity
• Lutheran theology "embraces tension" rather than forcing artificial resolution of biblical paradoxes
• Different Lutheran denominations reach different people with the same gospel
Through meaningful interviews and heartfelt conversations, Friar Time, hosted by Fr....
Listen on: Apple Podcasts Spotify
Join the Lead Time Newsletter! (Weekly Updates and Upcoming Episodes)
https://www.uniteleadership.org/lead-time-podcast#newsletter
Visit uniteleadership.org
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is Lead Time.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Welcome to Lead Time, tim Allman, here with Jack
Kalberg.
It's a beautiful day to bealive.
Pray, the joy and love of Jesusis with you.
Our current guest, thepresident of the AFLC, the
Association of Free LutheranCongregations, is in the house.
President Micah Germstad, howare you doing, brother?
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Doing very well.
Thank you, Grateful to join youtoday and looking forward to
our conversation.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Yeah, likewise for sure.
So just to let the record stand, we're not talking, as I've
talked to other denominationalleaders.
We're not talking because ourcongregation in particular, or
any congregation I know of, islooking to move the LCMS.
We love and respect our LCMSroots and heritage.
All this conversation is abouttoday is to hear more stories.
(00:50):
There are so many differentLutheran confessional
denominations in the UnitedStates of America and we're
going to hear that story today.
So let me give you a little bitof background for Micah.
He has been serving as thepresident of the AFLC since
their annual conference in 2022.
He was installed as presidentOctober 3rd of 2022.
(01:14):
He grew up in South Dakota.
He's a son of an AFLC pastor,wayne Germstad.
Upon graduating from highschool, he attended the Lutheran
or the Free Lutheran BibleCollege I love all the acronyms
affectionately known as theAFLBS earning a diploma in
biblical studies.
He's then studied at both NorthDakota State and Minnesota
(01:36):
State in Moorhead Graduating Ihad some family that went there
Graduating in 2006 with a BA inphysical education, teaching and
coaching.
Let's pause right there.
What have you coached, micah?
I'm curious.
A little bit of baseball,mostly basketball.
Okay, cool, so big basketballfan, I'm a football coach.
I love that, love that.
In 2006, reverend Germstadenrolled in the Free Lutheran
(01:58):
Seminary also the AFLTS.
He served his internship atRuthred Lutheran in Bethel Park
was ordained in 2010.
Reverend Germstad served HopeFree Evangelical Lutheran Church
in where's that?
At Ishpeming, michigan.
It's in the upper peninsula,ishpeming okay, it's on the oh
peninsula, beautiful.
(02:18):
In 2005, he accepted a call toserve as St Paul's Free Lutheran
in Fargo, north Dakota, wherehe served until he was elected
as president in 2022.
He married his wife, brittany,in 2021.
They have two wonderful youngchildren, a boy and a girl, levi
and Sophie.
So thanks so much for hangingout with us today, micah.
(02:40):
This is going to be a greattime.
Tell us a story for those whodon't know the origin story of
the Association of Free LutheranCongregations.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
Yeah, it's a mouthful , isn't it?
Lots of acronyms, although Iwould say that that's not
necessarily unique to our littlecul-de-sac of Lutheranism.
It's pretty common throughoutthe history, at least in America
anyway, that we like ouralphabet soup here here as
Lutherans in America.
Yeah, we, we actually trace ourroots back to Norway and some
(03:12):
some things that were happeningthere in the early to mid 1800s,
the, the, the country of Norway, had a state church model and
and at that time was, was veryoppressive.
Uh to, uh to, I would say,christians who were looking to
uh worship independently and andyou know, when you have a state
(03:33):
church model, it's this is anoversimplified way of saying it
but essentially the pastors, theclergy, are government
employees and and uh, and thatcreates a whole host of
difficulties and and so, uh,there was some, so there was
some rejection of that at thetime and really, coming from
(03:53):
that and this emphasis onpersonal Christian living and
things like that, as immigrantscame from Norway to America,
they brought some of the passion, the fire, the zeal for what we
would call free and livingcongregations to America, and
there were a couple of guys whowere hired at Augsburg College
(04:17):
and Seminary here in Minneapolisto be professors, to be
professors, and they had thisvision for a body of
congregations that the focus onthe authority of the
congregation and, yeah, had thisvision that there could be
(04:38):
these free and livingcongregations in America that
weren't governed by the state orgoverned by any kind of
ecclesiastical authority.
And so that goes back again.
That got kind of up and runningin the late 1800s.
They formed what became knownas the Lutheran Free Church, so
the LFC, and that existed as adenomination until I don't
remember the exact date it waseither like 59 or 60, somewhere
(05:00):
in there and then they mergedinto what was, I think then at
that time the ALC, and therewere about 40 congregations that
did not want to merge into thatgroup and so they broke off and
formed what became knowneventually then as the AFLC.
I mentioned that because kindof a funny thing in the history
(05:23):
there is that there wereactually some legal battles that
made it all the way to theMinnesota Supreme Court over the
naming of this.
They really wanted to keep theLutheran Free Church wording and
so the kind of the funnyproposal was we were going to be
named the Lutheran Free Church,not merged.
That was initially what ourtitle, our name was going to be
and, like I said, that ended upmaking it all the way to the
(05:45):
Minnesota Supreme Court.
There were different lawsuitsand things like that.
We settled on AFLC and so we'vebeen in existence now since 1962
.
So that's 63 years.
We've grown from those 40, 50congregations to about 250, a
little over 250 now across 26states about 250, a little over
250 now across 26 states andwe've got ministries in Canada,
(06:09):
india, as far as official AFLCkind of denominations.
We have missions work in othercountries too, but we have
congregations in those countries.
Brazil would be another onewhere we have AFLC congregations
.
And so I'm just grateful forhow God has been at work over
these 60 plus years and how he'syeah, how he's moved.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
So I don't know if this is like too hot of a topic,
but what was the thinking aboutwhy they did not want to merge?
Was it a doctrinal issue?
Speaker 3 (06:40):
It was doctrinal and polity.
Sometimes, you don't, you know,people don't like to
necessarily parse those.
They'll say that there arepolity things that are doctrinal
, right, but yeah, it was overthe inerrancy and the authority
of the word.
The ALC that they were joiningwas much more hierarchical in
their ecclesiastical structure,which really those churches felt
(07:03):
went against the fabric of whothey were as free Lutherans.
Speaker 4 (07:07):
Yeah, so this is fascinating to me because I was
actually baptized into theLutheran state church.
I was born in Norway andbaptized into one of those
churches and so knowing thatwhat we call the free Lutheran
churches comes out of that, sothe free Lutheran churches would
be the contrast to the staterun churches.
That's kind of the maybe anoversimplified way of of that.
So the free Lutheran churcheswould be the contrast to the
state-run churches.
That's kind of maybe anoversimplified way of describing
(07:29):
that.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
Yeah, certainly at the time.
That would be a very good wayof describing it Now.
As time has moved on in America, we don't necessarily identify
with that now as much.
It's kind of like there used tobe German Lutheran churches,
norwegian Lutheran, swedishLutheran, finnish, on and on
down the list, and our churchesnowadays.
We can still reference thatsometimes, but we don't
(07:50):
necessarily identify ourselvesthat way.
So a lot of Lutherans in ourgroup today, if we said, well,
we're the antithesis to thestate church, they wouldn't
necessarily know what that means, because that's not our history
in America per se, right,exactly, yeah, so what is?
Speaker 4 (08:05):
what is your?
Speaker 2 (08:06):
let's do two things.
What is your current kind ofpolity for as a church body and
then piggyback off that to sharekind of the vision for the AFLC
Micah.
What are your thoughts?
Speaker 3 (08:17):
Yeah, so you know, I'll try to keep a brief, keep a
brief description of our polity.
We, we value congregationalautonomy, and so we have this
set of what we call fundamentalprinciples, 12 principles that
were written in the late 1800sand then it follows through and
(08:43):
others that talk about how wedon't have any other
ecclesiastical authority overthe congregation other than the
word and the spirit.
So the congregation answers tothe word and the spirit, and
that's essentially it.
We have obviously nationaloffices, and I'm sitting here as
(09:04):
a president I joke with peoplethat I'm probably the most
powerless president that I knowof anyway and that's.
I actually think that's a goodthing and maybe later we can get
into some of the nuances youknow that are involved in being
a leader and not but notexerting domineering authority,
that kind of thing, but notexerting domineering authority,
that kind of thing, anyway.
(09:25):
So, yeah, we have nationaloffices, but our national
offices exist to support thecongregations in their work, to
be able to do things that theLord leads, that they wouldn't
otherwise be able to dothemselves.
So, to use missions as anexample, one congregation can't
support missionaries in sevencountries, but if you put 250
congregations together, well nowwe can do that.
(09:47):
But there needs to be a levelof administration and leadership
in that work, and so that's whyour World Missions Department
exists.
We have a publishing wing too,so we can produce Sunday school
material and Bible studies,devotionals, things like that,
and Bible studies, devotionals,things like that a church
planting department.
I work a lot myself with ourpastors and congregations
(10:10):
working with well, it's just somany different contexts, I guess
Pastoral vacancies, I celebrateanniversaries, I do a lot of
conflict resolution, you knowthose kinds of things.
So I'm a resource.
Sometimes when, like, a thirdparty is needed to come in, I'm
a resource to connectcongregations with one another
(10:31):
or with potentially availablepastors, those kinds of things.
So we have a good purpose andreason for existence.
But as a headquarters we don'texert any authority over the
congregation.
So we have a corporatestructure, so we're split into
five different majorcorporations so there isn't even
(10:52):
one board or entity that kindof rules them all.
To vaguely use a Lord of theRings reference.
We have a schools corporation,so they legally you know legally
oversee our Bible college andseminary.
We have a world missionscorporation that legally
oversees that work, homemissions, the same, and so and
(11:16):
so that's kind of how we're, howwe are legally structured to be
able to do this the right waywithout having kind of this top
down authority.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Yeah, yeah.
So you've been in your rolealmost three years now.
How is it going in terms ofbecause I think this is the
balance between hey, we wantthis overarching, or, you could
say, foundational why you couldcall that a vision and it could
be as relates to reaching morepeople with the gospel, starting
churches to do so, things likethat.
(11:45):
Are you kind of dipping yourtoes right now into casting
vision for the AFLC and, if so,how's that sound, micah?
Speaker 3 (11:51):
Yeah, no, that's a great question.
Certainly, I think a leader hasto have a place to present a
vision to the body.
It differs, again, depending onthe structure that you have,
and our structure specificallyhas historically kind of
downplayed the role of thepresident in that work, and not
(12:13):
that it hasn't been there, butwe just don't necessarily see it
as being a primaryresponsibility that my office
has and that's totally fine.
I have no problem with that.
I also don't think that that Ineed to stay silent in it either
and that there's a way that Ican, that that I can present
part of my vision and and how Iwant to see the AFLC move down
(12:37):
the road, without saying thatthat this is the way it shall be
done, either, you know, andwithout saying that that this is
the way it shall be done,either you know, and, and so I,
you know, I, I have great, Ihave great hope for our group.
I've, I just have great joy inwho we are.
You know, part of part ofmoving forward is is maintaining
an appreciation for whereyou've been and where you are
(12:59):
Right.
I think of the, the, the oneleper of the 10 that was healed,
who thought to turn and saythank you.
You know, having a gratefulnessfor what God has done over the
years, I think is reallyimportant in keeping grounded
and staying true to our identity.
And so you know our value onthe inerrancy and the authority
(13:23):
of the Word of God.
I just pray that we maintainthat and keep that for as long
as God has us here serving Him,and I just praise God for that
history, for that legacy that wehave, and that it's not just a
legacy but that it's an integralpart of who we are.
I want us to lean into thefreedom of the gospel.
(13:46):
That's a big thing for me.
You know we talk about we'refree Lutherans, and when people
ask all the time, what in theworld does that mean, you know?
Does that mean you don't chargean entry fee or whatever other
lame joke that you can come upwith on that?
But when we talk about it sooften we talk about the polity
that we don't answer to anyoverarching overlord or anything
(14:06):
like that.
And I say that a little bitfacetiously.
So I don't mean to bedisrespectful to those that have
a different structure that way.
But I think we maybe have missedor have de-emphasized the other
side of that freedom, which isthe freedom that we have in the
gospel.
It was for freedom that Christhas set you, the freedom that we
(14:27):
have in the gospel.
It was for freedom that Christhas set you free.
That's Galatians 5.
And that, this gospel, freedomthat our chains have been loosed
.
Think of just the words ofChrist in Luke 4 echoing in my
mind there too.
That's the message that thisworld that is bound by sin needs
to hear that there is thisfreedom that is to be found in
(14:49):
Jesus Christ, and so I want usto, just, I want us to lean into
that.
I think that's something we allneed, but it's something our
culture, our society reallyneeds right now, and so I want
us to embrace that.
I want us to embracecooperation and interdependence.
I want us to embrace that.
I want us to embracecooperation and interdependence.
This is another thing.
(15:10):
With the freedom that we havecongregationally, I think we can
focus so much on where eachcongregation is independent that
we neglect to consider the factthat God has given us this
bigger body, and we need eachother.
The body of Christ needs eachother body and we need each
other.
You know, the body of Christneeds each other, and, at least
for me.
I know I'm guilty sometimes ofthinking of that just within a
(15:32):
congregation.
You know that God equips thebody within a congregation, but
I think God has equipped thebody in a greater way too.
That's outside of thecongregational walls, and so I
think that we need to learn toembrace and really value
cooperation betweencongregations.
With the different nationalministries that we have.
We can come alongside you andwork with you, those kinds of
(15:54):
things.
Yeah, so those are some of thethings that I kind of see, I
guess, moving forward for us,that I would like to just really
see us lean into.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Well, I just affirm it, President Germstad man, you
can call me Micah, by the way.
I know I can, but I just giveyour office respect.
Leaders are constantly curatingand I would say, by the
Spirit's power, as Lutherans andconnected to the Word, curating
the gospel.
(16:23):
The gospel doesn't change Life,death, resurrection, ascension
of Jesus.
But how the gospel getscommunicated in time and space
is contextual, right, and youget the responsibility to say
this is the what that I see, andI am going to summarize purity
of the doctrine of ourconfession.
Freedom and not just freedomfrom one another, right, freedom
(16:48):
from any kind of, but freedomfor advancing collaboratively
the mission of Jesus.
And you get to cast vision anduse your words.
But then the how it gets.
I don't care if it's at thenational level or it's at the
local, congregational level oranywhere in between.
That's just the call ofleadership.
This is a leadership podcast,micah.
Right Is to test out the what.
(17:10):
Now, what do you all think?
Is this, what this vision kindof lands?
And then we're going to worktogether on the how.
I'm not going to dictate thehow.
Anything more to say inresponse to that, though, micah.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
Yeah, no, I just I learned a lesson early on in my
time.
I was down visiting a new churchplant in San Antonio, texas,
and I was presenting the AFLCthey were applying to join our
body and and I kind of went on alittle bit of a rant on the
structural autonomy and becausethat's kind of what I'm used to
(17:44):
in my context that actually wasraising some red flags for them,
because a lot of them had comefrom these big kind of big box
church, non-denominationalchurches that were also
completely free of any authorityover them, but they had seen
within their walls theleadership the pastors exert, a
(18:04):
more power-hungry type ofleadership style, and so it was
very important to them that theyheard you know, either we have,
either we have, you know, astructure where the few leaders
(18:26):
in charge make all the decisions.
Nor is it.
You're on your own.
Good luck, you know, there'sgot to be a way that we can come
alongside and work together,and yes, it's, it's to share
resources and and encourage eachother and love one another, but
sometimes it is to hold eachother lovingly accountable too,
and I think that there's ahealthy, biblical way to do that
(18:47):
that, just, yeah, promotes thehealth of the congregation and
the greater body.
Speaker 4 (18:52):
Well, I have to say, one of the things that really
attracted me to the church thatI'm in right now becoming it
wasn't the label LCMS, really,it was the fact that I knew that
the pastors in this church wereheavily vetted, that there was
a really, really robust pastoralformation process, that there
was some form of organizationalstructure that would hold people
(19:14):
accountable, you know, let'ssay, you know, if some sort of
gross corruption happened, Iknew that that would be the case
.
And that gave me a lot ofcomfort being part of this part
of this church body.
Not that it was a, you know, adeal breaker, but I came from a
Pentecostal background.
That was how I was raised intoand it was.
It was an independent churchand you know it was there.
(19:36):
They were making things up asthey were going along.
They were making things up asthey were going along, and it
was very unsettling to me howthey were kind of, let's say, we
sometimes talk about theinnovation orthodoxy pendulum.
They were way off on thisinnovation side of things,
creating new thoughts anddoctrines to me that were
veering out of scripture, and Ididn't see any accountability
(19:56):
mechanism in that type ofcontext.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Yeah, I can't do ministry on my own.
It's not Tim's church, it'sChrist's church and then it's a
congregation of the LutheranChurch Missouri Synod, of which
we're in the PSD PacificSouthwest District, of which
there's five no seven othercongregations in my circuit and
we're kind of a funny, we'rekind of a super circuit because
Tucson has its own circuit.
(20:20):
So some of the Phoenix churcheslike gather together and I know
, hey, if we start doing orsaying something that's a little
off, we're going to have aconversation about it and we do.
And LCMS, so you look at, we'rean older church body, almost
(20:44):
200 years old, and so we havegreat points in our history
where innovation and I would saythe appropriate amount of
innovation you think LutheranHour, you think our
international missions and awhole bunch of departments kind
of getting raised up and many,many faithful leaders over many,
many generations leading us tobe one of the top two or three
(21:09):
largest Lutheran, confessionalLutheran denominations.
And I'm keeping from talkingabout the Evangelical Lutheran
Church of America because theyhave some stuff that is, there's
some struggles there, I wouldsay.
But we're one of the largerdenominations and that comes
with a whole bunch of blessingsand some things.
We've got to continue to workon as well as you.
As an outsider, kind of look atthe LCMS, what do you say?
(21:31):
Wow, this is a jewel, a gem,and this is something maybe to
watch out against there,president Germsath.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
Yeah, you're talking specifically about the LCMS.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Sure yeah.
I mean, what do you know aboutour church body and our history?
Anything, yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
Yeah, you know enough , I guess, um, enough to get me
in trouble.
Is that?
Is that a bad thing?
To say yeah, no, I, I, I reallyappreciate.
Uh, the LCMS is a zeal for theLutheran confessions.
Um, some of Some of the circlesthat I am a part of, you know,
sometimes they have a little bitof a squinty-eyed approach to
(22:06):
that, and I think it's in theirmind.
It's because there's then thisdanger of placing the
confessions over scripture, andI think that comes from a
misunderstanding that nobody, atleast that I've ever
encountered in the LCMS, has anydesire to place the confessions
over Scripture.
It's just, very simply, that webelieve the confessions are a
faithful exposition of whatScripture teaches and that
(22:28):
they're a beautiful, wonderfulteaching tool to help us
understand what Scripture says,but that Scripture is the final
authority, and that's somethingI've just always again
appreciated about the LCMS and Ifind a great kindred spirit in
that, and so I praise God forthat.
I think the LCMS has a standardof excellence too that I
(22:49):
appreciate.
I think there are times when,again, in our zeal to or I
shouldn't use that word, maybe,but in our desire to be
unorganized and there's goodreasons for that I think
sometimes that can promote or atleast bring a temptation to
(23:13):
laziness, and even theologicallaziness, so to speak, and so I
really appreciate the standardof excellence that the LCMS has,
at least as I perceive it, andI don't mean to accuse our group
of being theologically lazyeither, but I think that can be
(23:34):
a temptation there and it'ssomething I'm a little bit
sensitive to, and so I'mgrateful for that.
One of the things that I'vepersonally and professionally
benefited from is, just becauseof the size of the LCMS and the
resources that you all have,we're able, and because of your
grace to include us too, we'reable to join you in some things
(23:56):
like Lutherans for Life.
I mean, I don't know if it's athird or something like that of
the national board right now iscomprised of AFLC members, and
so we've just got a greatpartnership there and
recognizing it's not our deal,it's your deal, but that you
invite us in and we can worktogether that way, and I think
(24:18):
that's great.
I had a great experience lastyear with the Minnesota South
District.
It was a coordinated effortwith the North District as well.
But the state of Minnesota hasbeen up to some political
shenanigans I'll just call itthat way and I mean some stuff
that was just very blatantlyoppressive towards Christians
(24:41):
and Christian groups andorganizations, and I was invited
to be a part of having aLutheran response to that
officially, you know, and tohave my voice heard by state
officials was something I wasjust really grateful to partner
(25:02):
with with my Missouri Synodbrothers and sisters that way at
our Capitol, and so I just I'mjust grateful for some of the,
some of the ways that we've beenable to work together that way.
You know, we certainly have somedisagreements on on some
structure, uh and and politythings.
There's there's somedifferences there, Uh,
(25:23):
theologically I I wouldn't saythat we necessarily disagree
much on on communion, but we dopractice it differently, Uh,
just a little in terms of, youknow, I think our altar is
probably more open than than, uh, the vast majority of of
Missouri Synod altars and uh,and so we've got some
differences there.
But overall I'm just gratefulfor the work and the ministry of
(25:46):
the LCMS.
Hey, that's wonderful Jack.
Speaker 4 (25:50):
No, I'm just kind of curious that openness, is that a
congregational decision or isthat a national body decision on
that position for communion?
Speaker 3 (25:59):
Probably the best answer is that it's a
congregational decision.
I would say that withincongregations I've seen some
that will practice theiropenness.
That actually isn't that farfrom, if at all, from the
Missouri Synod practice of more.
If you want to use closedcommunion or closed communion,
(26:20):
however you want to say that, sowe do have a few that do that
and that's their decision.
But the vast majority of ourcongregations would say you know
, do you believe that you're asinner?
Are you a sinner?
Do you need God's forgiveness?
Do you believe that Christforgives your sins?
And do you believe that Christis really present in the bread
(26:41):
and the wine?
And if that's true, then if youcan answer those questions in
the affirmative, then you'rewelcome at our table.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
That's good.
I am not talking aboutformation anymore on podcasts
publicly, but I am curious abouthow you raise up leaders in
your church body and not justpastors.
What is that upward draft?
This is a leadership podcast.
What does that upward draft ofleadership development look like
in the AFLC?
Speaker 3 (27:10):
So officially, that happens at the congregational
level first and foremost,especially when you're talking
about lay leadership.
We haven't had a very robust orintentional work that I've
observed over the years indiscipling lay leaders.
(27:30):
We have had some of it, butit's for a very specific group
and that's for lay pastors, andthat's maybe another difference
that we would have with the LCMS.
We're more open to lay pastorsserving congregations and we
have a roster for lay pastorswho can get licensed with us and
(27:54):
go through some of that vettingand accountability that we
talked about earlier.
But even then we have a lot ofchurches that are served by lay
pastors who aren't rostered withus and we don't know who they
are, you know, or anything likethat, which is, I think, a
little bit unique that way, andthat's a congregational
authority to do that.
(28:14):
Yep, yep.
So the congregation has theauthority to do that.
So we have had some mechanismsfor developing leadership,
pastoral leadership for laymenand then other, you know,
rostered ordained pastors areinvited to join some of those
sessions.
Women can join those sessionstoo.
(28:36):
We don't have a path forrostership or ordination for
women.
We, I would say we're verysimilar with the LCMS in that,
in in that regard, and what webelieve about, about the, about
women in the office of of theministry, but, um, but there are
certainly invited to take someof those leadership classes, uh,
that are designed more for layleaders, but that's, that's it
(28:59):
and it's.
It's one.
It's historically been justkind of one week a year, um, of
uh, usually in-person uh classeshere on our campus and and
that's about it.
So, uh, what?
When I came into office, um, Ihired uh, uh a ministry
associate, an assistant, who, uh, that was my number.
(29:21):
First thing that I put on hisjob description was develop a
leader's training program andyou can incorporate our
licensure stuff for lay pastors.
But I want it to be much morebroad in scope than that,
because we've got a kind of agap here.
We just haven't done a greatjob of, in my opinion of
intentionally providingresources and training and
(29:43):
encouraging leadership, not justpastorally.
But you know, we are a.
One of the identifying markersof who we are is our emphasis on
the value of lay leadership atthe congregational level and the
national level.
All of our national boardsrequire us to have majority lay
(30:04):
representation, and so if wevalue that, we should be
investing in promoting anddiscipling lay leaders, and so
we've been working on that herefor the last couple of years,
and then now this year we've gotkind of an initiative put
together where I put somematerial together and am making
(30:26):
that available for me to go outand start doing some training in
our districts.
Even I would do itcongregationally too, but I
think you have a broader reachif you can catch multiple
congregational representativesin one event, and so we're
really trying to trying toimprove in that area.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
How's it being received?
You're training Great.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
Yeah, we're in the early stages of it.
I actually was just writing areport for our national
convention, which happens inJune, kind of kind of presenting
it.
But I've already had someevents where I've spoken at it
and there's there's a hunger forit just because I think it's
been a it's been a need thathasn't been met yet, and so I'm
excited to see what happens.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
Well, you're using your coaching and PE background
to shape your education right.
Coaches are obviously the best.
Coaches are teachers, thosethat offer words of wisdom and
care and then get all of God'speople out into the kingdom,
expanding work and giving themthe word and and which we have,
(31:24):
and the way then of Jesus tocarry out in all of our
different vocations Gospelproclamation, praise, be to God.
So how has coaching kind ofshaped your leadership as
president?
Speaker 3 (31:34):
Yeah, I mean, you kind of said it.
You know the people kind ofchuckle a little bit when, when
I say that my, my bachelor'sdegree was in physical education
, I went to school to be a gymteacher, that seems to be a
little bit of a leap to them forwhatever reason.
But I have, you know, thattraining that I received really
(31:56):
gave me a passion and a joy inteaching.
You know, that's where I reallystarted to learn that that God
had gifted me, uh, to be ateacher and and so I think that
that has that has really helpedme.
And then, and then the coachingside of things, um, I think,
really opened my eyes to what ittakes to lead a team and and,
uh, um, that's where I reallyfirst kind of got introduced to
(32:19):
some of these leadershipprinciples and I saw firsthand
the consequences, good and bad,for different leadership
decisions.
And so I haven't coached forprobably almost 15 years, so I
haven't maintained that I justget to be an armchair coach now
(32:39):
watching games on TV, but.
But I would definitelyattribute my background in it to
kind of starting to open myeyes, to see my, my desire to
not only not only developquality leadership traits in
myself, but to then teach it toothers.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Yeah, we talk about difficult conversations maybe
last question here a lot and wehave them quite frequently in
our congregation right to loveand challenge one another on.
It could be around a structure,a financial decision.
It could be around maybe aculture that's being established
that is less than helpful.
(33:17):
And you know, gossip is alwaysa thing.
And, jack, I'm not speaking toany one thing, if you're trying
to guess.
I'm just speaking what we knowthe way Satan works, right, he
seeks to steal, kill, destroyand divide us.
And so leadership at the locallevel is it's constantly saying
where are we going?
This is the way I like todefine kind of leadership.
(33:38):
Where are we going?
So that's a vision.
How are we going?
So that's a vision.
How are we going to get there?
We're going to work together.
That's strategy.
And then, how well are weloving one another on the way to
there?
Like Jesus loved, and Jesusloved through both words of
encouragement and words ofchallenge, and that's culture.
So how are you trying to leadlike that and get people?
(34:01):
Because the tendency, peoplethat disagree with one another,
they'd rather keep it tothemselves because uncomfortable
conversations they're namedthat for they're uncomfortable.
So we just rather sweep itunder the rug, and I think in a
German, norwegian, scandinaviankind of culture we can have a
tendency not to be as kind offorthright to one another's face
(34:23):
as we could and should betalking to one another about
places where we disagree, and soyour perspective as you lead in
the AFLC toward havingdifficult conversations, micah.
Speaker 3 (34:33):
Yeah, one of the things I appreciate about our
group is we really try to fostera family feeling type culture,
which has two edges to that,because I think that on the
negative side you can createkind of a very inward looking
group, right, and that can beproblematic too.
But seeing that we are thefamily of God, that we are
(34:55):
brothers and sisters and I usemarriage sometimes as an example
of this Marital unity, okay,doesn't always mean unanimity,
right, and that's true not justin a marriage but in a church
council or any kind ofleadership board.
And I've seen firsthand whereleaders inappropriately demand
(35:19):
unanimity to define unity andthat's abusive, frankly.
And we need to be able tocultivate and foster a culture
where people are free todisagree and that shouldn't be
that hard for us.
I think we make it harder thanit needs to be.
But I think if we start withthis baseline, that we are
(35:40):
brothers and sisters in Christ,that's that family thing.
And we are loved, we areredeemed, we are saved, we are
justified and made an heir ofheaven by grace, through faith
in the crucified and risen JesusChrist.
That is our identity, that isour status Now.
We don't need to proveourselves to others, we don't
need to have our way or else oranything like that, but we can
(36:05):
have joy in working together.
We can learn how to disagreewell.
And one of the things that Ireally appreciate about Lutheran
theology is that it quoteembraces tension, and I think
even of, like the doctrine ofsalvation.
Okay, we aren't doublepredestination people, we're not
Calvinist and we're notdecision theology people either.
(36:27):
We let God's word say that youare dead in your trespasses and
sins and you've been saved byGod's grace, and I praise God
for that.
And I think that that mindsetapplies to some of these other
practical things too.
And so we can learn to livetogether and live well together,
(36:48):
even though we disagree on somethings.
And I don't want to use likethe doctrine of salvation as an
example of that, because that ispretty basic.
But you know, like in the AFLC,we've got some differing beliefs
about eschatology.
Okay, we don't have an officialstatement on eschatology as a,
as an association, there'sfreedom there.
We, like I said, we don'tordain women, but there's
(37:10):
freedom within the congregationfor women to have different
positions of leadership andpeople have different opinions
on how that should go, and wecan learn to disagree on that
and still be united under thisone tent, and I just really
appreciate that.
I praise God for that.
(37:31):
I think when we can learn tocommunicate well and openly and
honestly together, againrecognizing and remembering that
we are a part of the samefamily, then I think that gives
us grace for one another andpatience and love and a
willingness to work together,even though we don't always fall
(37:51):
in line on every single issuewith everyone.
Jack comment.
Speaker 4 (37:55):
That's beautiful.
I love that.
The description of how we holdthings in attention right, I
think that's a beautiful thingto know.
There are areas where we evennow the church has to have
robust conversations about whatscripture means on certain
things and how that actuallygets applied in the local church
.
The Lutheran confessions arereally, really great, but
(38:20):
there's still a lot of thingsthat we freedom to have these
challenging conversations tospeak truth and love and to be
(38:44):
challenged by others in thespirit of love.
Right?
Speaker 3 (38:47):
Look yeah, sorry to interrupt.
Great Go for it.
I mean our people.
When I say our people, I mean Idon't mean our members, I'm
talking about our culture, oursociety.
I think they're hungry for that.
I think part of where thechurch capital C can get into
trouble a little bit is when werefuse to talk about these
(39:08):
things.
And if we can foster anenvironment of openness and
there isn't a question that youcan't ask, let's wrestle with it
, let's deal with it, let's lookto scripture.
I think our broader culture ishungry for that message and I
see a great opportunity againfor the church capital C so that
includes all of us to reallywitness to the people around us.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
group is because exactly they started to say
caesar's not lord, jesus is lord.
And oh, gentile women, poor,there's no more.
Now I'm shouting out togalatians right, and no more.
Our new identity has comebecause our life is hidden with
(39:55):
christ and so there's verylittle that you can say to me.
That's going to offend me,because my baptismal identity
says he's already said the firstand the final word in who I am
and therefore I live out thebest, the best posture.
Then I just live out of theadventure of Christian freedom
in trying to follow, by thespirit's power, the word and the
(40:16):
way and the work of Jesus,knowing that it's all passively
given and received.
What do you have that youhaven't received?
It's all from him.
And then I get to partner.
I get a partner in carryingthat gospel message out,
regardless of whether I'm apastor.
I'm just an everyday guy out inthe marketplace bringing the
gospel.
(40:36):
This is my new identity and myinvitation, and going away from
the power of positionalleadership.
It's good, we need leaders, butwe need leaders who are after
the heart and mind of Jesus, whotook the low place, humbling
himself even to the point ofdeath, and will very rarely, if
(40:57):
ever, use the voice of do thisbecause I say so.
You know, jesus, I've beenwanting to say this for a while.
Jesus came all authority soit's not like we're
anti-authority at all Allauthority in heaven and on earth
has been given to me.
And then you can say Jesus,this is kind of a wild move.
Therefore, I am sending you goand make disciples of all
(41:22):
nations, how baptize and teacheverything I've commanded you.
I'm with you always, the veryend of the age, and you will be
my witnesses in Jerusalem, judea, samaria, to the ends of ends
of the world.
And that's what we get to be apart of today.
Because Jesus is coming backvery, very soon and I pray he
finds us united in walkingthrough the hard stuff,
(41:43):
cross-cultural, our differentcontexts that we find ourselves,
and I'm praying we work up intohim, who is the head and leader
and Lord lover of our souls,and I'm grateful for your
expression of leadership.
I'm praying for the advancementof the gospel in the AFLC and
we covet your prayers, PresidentGermstad, as we carry out
(42:03):
gospel expansion in the LutheranChurch Missouri Synod.
Any final words there, micah?
Speaker 3 (42:08):
Yeah, just grateful for this opportunity, grateful
for you guys, grateful for ourbrothers and sisters in the LCMS
.
One of the most beautifulthings to me is to see how God
uses different groups to reachdifferent people with the gospel
(42:29):
and you said it well just ouridentity is so.
We can rest so well in who weare, in Christ, that we don't
need to be competing and I don'tmean to imply that there's any
undercurrents of that anywayeither here but just to be able
(42:52):
to have a spirit of thankfulnessfor how God is at work in
another group, and I'm gratefulfor that and grateful for how
God has used the LCMS for somany years and grateful for when
he brings us together to worktogether on different things too
.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
Amen, this is lead time.
Please like, subscribe, commentwherever it is you take in
these podcasts.
And again, we're not having theconversation because we're
leaving to join the aflc.
As awesome as you are, micah,we're just praying for our
church body and praying for theadvancement of the gospel.
People coming to know jesus inall of our churches takes all
(43:31):
types of churches to reach alltypes of people and then
carrying the message of christout into our various vocations.
Uh, please, comment and uh,please subscribe, whether it's
on YouTube or wherever it isthat helps get the word out and
we'll take.
I'm sure someone on the commentsection is going to say, well,
you guys should just leave andgo to the AFL.
No, no, no, we're a part of thefamily of faith here in the
(43:54):
Lutheran Church, missouri Synodand I'm better.
I'm better, micah, becauseyou're my friend and brother in
Christ and I'm praying for you,president Germstad, and your
leadership in the AFLC.
It's a good day.
Go and make it a great day.
Thanks so much, micah, thanksJack.
Speaker 4 (44:08):
God bless guys.
Speaker 1 (44:09):
You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the
Unite Leadership Collective.
The ULC's mission is tocollaborate with the local
church to discover, develop anddeploy leaders through biblical
Lutheran doctrine and innovativemethods To partner with us in
this gospel message.
Subscribe to our channel, thengo to theuniteleadershiporg to
create your free login forexclusive material and resources
(44:31):
and then to explore ways inwhich you can sponsor an episode
.
Thanks for listening and staytuned for next week's episode.
This is Lead Time.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Welcome to Lead Time, tim Allman, here with Jack
Kalberg.
It's a beautiful day to bealive.
Pray, the joy and love of Jesusis with you.
Our current guest, thepresident of the AFLC, the
Association of Free LutheranCongregations, is in the house.
President Micah Germstad, howare you doing, brother?
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Doing very well.
Thank you, Grateful to join youtoday and looking forward to
our conversation.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Yeah, likewise for sure.
So just to let the record stand, we're not talking, as I've
talked to other denominationalleaders.
We're not talking because ourcongregation in particular, or
any congregation I know of, islooking to move the LCMS.
We love and respect our LCMSroots and heritage.
All this conversation is abouttoday is to hear more stories.
(00:50):
There are so many differentLutheran confessional
denominations in the UnitedStates of America and we're
going to hear that story today.
So let me give you a little bitof background for Micah.
He has been serving as thepresident of the AFLC since
their annual conference in 2022.
He was installed as presidentOctober 3rd of 2022.
(01:14):
He grew up in South Dakota.
He's a son of an AFLC pastor,wayne Germstad.
Upon graduating from highschool, he attended the Lutheran
or the Free Lutheran BibleCollege I love all the acronyms
affectionately known as theAFLBS earning a diploma in
biblical studies.
He's then studied at both NorthDakota State and Minnesota
(01:36):
State in Moorhead Graduating Ihad some family that went there
Graduating in 2006 with a BA inphysical education, teaching and
coaching.
Let's pause right there.
What have you coached, micah?
I'm curious.
A little bit of baseball,mostly basketball.
Okay, cool, so big basketballfan, I'm a football coach.
I love that, love that.
In 2006, reverend Germstadenrolled in the Free Lutheran
(01:58):
Seminary also the AFLTS.
He served his internship atRuthred Lutheran in Bethel Park
was ordained in 2010.
Reverend Germstad served HopeFree Evangelical Lutheran Church
in where's that?
At Ishpeming, michigan.
It's in the upper peninsula,ishpeming okay, it's on the oh
peninsula, beautiful.
(02:18):
In 2005, he accepted a call toserve as St Paul's Free Lutheran
in Fargo, north Dakota, wherehe served until he was elected
as president in 2022.
He married his wife, brittany,in 2021.
They have two wonderful youngchildren, a boy and a girl, levi
and Sophie.
So thanks so much for hangingout with us today, micah.
(02:40):
This is going to be a greattime.
Tell us a story for those whodon't know the origin story of
the Association of Free LutheranCongregations.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
Yeah, it's a mouthful , isn't it?
Lots of acronyms, although Iwould say that that's not
necessarily unique to our littlecul-de-sac of Lutheranism.
It's pretty common throughoutthe history, at least in America
anyway, that we like ouralphabet soup here here as
Lutherans in America.
Yeah, we, we actually trace ourroots back to Norway and some
(03:12):
some things that were happeningthere in the early to mid 1800s,
the, the, the country of Norway, had a state church model and
and at that time was, was veryoppressive.
Uh to, uh to, I would say,christians who were looking to
uh worship independently and andyou know, when you have a state
(03:33):
church model, it's this is anoversimplified way of saying it
but essentially the pastors, theclergy, are government
employees and and uh, and thatcreates a whole host of
difficulties and and so, uh,there was some, so there was
some rejection of that at thetime and really, coming from
(03:53):
that and this emphasis onpersonal Christian living and
things like that, as immigrantscame from Norway to America,
they brought some of the passion, the fire, the zeal for what we
would call free and livingcongregations to America, and
there were a couple of guys whowere hired at Augsburg College
(04:17):
and Seminary here in Minneapolisto be professors, to be
professors, and they had thisvision for a body of
congregations that the focus onthe authority of the
congregation and, yeah, had thisvision that there could be
(04:38):
these free and livingcongregations in America that
weren't governed by the state orgoverned by any kind of
ecclesiastical authority.
And so that goes back again.
That got kind of up and runningin the late 1800s.
They formed what became knownas the Lutheran Free Church, so
the LFC, and that existed as adenomination until I don't
remember the exact date it waseither like 59 or 60, somewhere
(05:00):
in there and then they mergedinto what was, I think then at
that time the ALC, and therewere about 40 congregations that
did not want to merge into thatgroup and so they broke off and
formed what became knowneventually then as the AFLC.
I mentioned that because kindof a funny thing in the history
(05:23):
there is that there wereactually some legal battles that
made it all the way to theMinnesota Supreme Court over the
naming of this.
They really wanted to keep theLutheran Free Church wording and
so the kind of the funnyproposal was we were going to be
named the Lutheran Free Church,not merged.
That was initially what ourtitle, our name was going to be
and, like I said, that ended upmaking it all the way to the
(05:45):
Minnesota Supreme Court.
There were different lawsuitsand things like that.
We settled on AFLC and so we'vebeen in existence now since 1962
.
So that's 63 years.
We've grown from those 40, 50congregations to about 250, a
little over 250 now across 26states about 250, a little over
250 now across 26 states andwe've got ministries in Canada,
(06:09):
india, as far as official AFLCkind of denominations.
We have missions work in othercountries too, but we have
congregations in those countries.
Brazil would be another onewhere we have AFLC congregations
.
And so I'm just grateful forhow God has been at work over
these 60 plus years and how he'syeah, how he's moved.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
So I don't know if this is like too hot of a topic,
but what was the thinking aboutwhy they did not want to merge?
Was it a doctrinal issue?
Speaker 3 (06:40):
It was doctrinal and polity.
Sometimes, you don't, you know,people don't like to
necessarily parse those.
They'll say that there arepolity things that are doctrinal
, right, but yeah, it was overthe inerrancy and the authority
of the word.
The ALC that they were joiningwas much more hierarchical in
their ecclesiastical structure,which really those churches felt
(07:03):
went against the fabric of whothey were as free Lutherans.
Speaker 4 (07:07):
Yeah, so this is fascinating to me because I was
actually baptized into theLutheran state church.
I was born in Norway andbaptized into one of those
churches and so knowing thatwhat we call the free Lutheran
churches comes out of that, sothe free Lutheran churches would
be the contrast to the staterun churches.
That's kind of the maybe anoversimplified way of of that.
So the free Lutheran churcheswould be the contrast to the
state-run churches.
That's kind of maybe anoversimplified way of describing
(07:29):
that.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
Yeah, certainly at the time.
That would be a very good wayof describing it Now.
As time has moved on in America, we don't necessarily identify
with that now as much.
It's kind of like there used tobe German Lutheran churches,
norwegian Lutheran, swedishLutheran, finnish, on and on
down the list, and our churchesnowadays.
We can still reference thatsometimes, but we don't
(07:50):
necessarily identify ourselvesthat way.
So a lot of Lutherans in ourgroup today, if we said, well,
we're the antithesis to thestate church, they wouldn't
necessarily know what that means, because that's not our history
in America per se, right,exactly, yeah, so what is?
Speaker 4 (08:05):
what is your?
Speaker 2 (08:06):
let's do two things.
What is your current kind ofpolity for as a church body and
then piggyback off that to sharekind of the vision for the AFLC
Micah.
What are your thoughts?
Speaker 3 (08:17):
Yeah, so you know, I'll try to keep a brief, keep a
brief description of our polity.
We, we value congregationalautonomy, and so we have this
set of what we call fundamentalprinciples, 12 principles that
were written in the late 1800sand then it follows through and
(08:43):
others that talk about how wedon't have any other
ecclesiastical authority overthe congregation other than the
word and the spirit.
So the congregation answers tothe word and the spirit, and
that's essentially it.
We have obviously nationaloffices, and I'm sitting here as
(09:04):
a president I joke with peoplethat I'm probably the most
powerless president that I knowof anyway and that's.
I actually think that's a goodthing and maybe later we can get
into some of the nuances youknow that are involved in being
a leader and not but notexerting domineering authority,
that kind of thing, but notexerting domineering authority,
that kind of thing, anyway.
(09:25):
So, yeah, we have nationaloffices, but our national
offices exist to support thecongregations in their work, to
be able to do things that theLord leads, that they wouldn't
otherwise be able to dothemselves.
So, to use missions as anexample, one congregation can't
support missionaries in sevencountries, but if you put 250
congregations together, well nowwe can do that.
(09:47):
But there needs to be a levelof administration and leadership
in that work, and so that's whyour World Missions Department
exists.
We have a publishing wing too,so we can produce Sunday school
material and Bible studies,devotionals, things like that,
and Bible studies, devotionals,things like that a church
planting department.
I work a lot myself with ourpastors and congregations
(10:10):
working with well, it's just somany different contexts, I guess
Pastoral vacancies, I celebrateanniversaries, I do a lot of
conflict resolution, you knowthose kinds of things.
So I'm a resource.
Sometimes when, like, a thirdparty is needed to come in, I'm
a resource to connectcongregations with one another
(10:31):
or with potentially availablepastors, those kinds of things.
So we have a good purpose andreason for existence.
But as a headquarters we don'texert any authority over the
congregation.
So we have a corporatestructure, so we're split into
five different majorcorporations so there isn't even
(10:52):
one board or entity that kindof rules them all.
To vaguely use a Lord of theRings reference.
We have a schools corporation,so they legally you know legally
oversee our Bible college andseminary.
We have a world missionscorporation that legally
oversees that work, homemissions, the same, and so and
(11:16):
so that's kind of how we're, howwe are legally structured to be
able to do this the right waywithout having kind of this top
down authority.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Yeah, yeah.
So you've been in your rolealmost three years now.
How is it going in terms ofbecause I think this is the
balance between hey, we wantthis overarching, or, you could
say, foundational why you couldcall that a vision and it could
be as relates to reaching morepeople with the gospel, starting
churches to do so, things likethat.
(11:45):
Are you kind of dipping yourtoes right now into casting
vision for the AFLC and, if so,how's that sound, micah?
Speaker 3 (11:51):
Yeah, no, that's a great question.
Certainly, I think a leader hasto have a place to present a
vision to the body.
It differs, again, depending onthe structure that you have,
and our structure specificallyhas historically kind of
downplayed the role of thepresident in that work, and not
(12:13):
that it hasn't been there, butwe just don't necessarily see it
as being a primaryresponsibility that my office
has and that's totally fine.
I have no problem with that.
I also don't think that that Ineed to stay silent in it either
and that there's a way that Ican, that that I can present
part of my vision and and how Iwant to see the AFLC move down
(12:37):
the road, without saying thatthat this is the way it shall be
done, either, you know, andwithout saying that that this is
the way it shall be done,either you know, and, and so I,
you know, I, I have great, Ihave great hope for our group.
I've, I just have great joy inwho we are.
You know, part of part ofmoving forward is is maintaining
an appreciation for whereyou've been and where you are
(12:59):
Right.
I think of the, the, the oneleper of the 10 that was healed,
who thought to turn and saythank you.
You know, having a gratefulnessfor what God has done over the
years, I think is reallyimportant in keeping grounded
and staying true to our identity.
And so you know our value onthe inerrancy and the authority
(13:23):
of the Word of God.
I just pray that we maintainthat and keep that for as long
as God has us here serving Him,and I just praise God for that
history, for that legacy that wehave, and that it's not just a
legacy but that it's an integralpart of who we are.
I want us to lean into thefreedom of the gospel.
(13:46):
That's a big thing for me.
You know we talk about we'refree Lutherans, and when people
ask all the time, what in theworld does that mean, you know?
Does that mean you don't chargean entry fee or whatever other
lame joke that you can come upwith on that?
But when we talk about it sooften we talk about the polity
that we don't answer to anyoverarching overlord or anything
(14:06):
like that.
And I say that a little bitfacetiously.
So I don't mean to bedisrespectful to those that have
a different structure that way.
But I think we maybe have missedor have de-emphasized the other
side of that freedom, which isthe freedom that we have in the
gospel.
It was for freedom that Christhas set you, the freedom that we
(14:27):
have in the gospel.
It was for freedom that Christhas set you free.
That's Galatians 5.
And that, this gospel, freedomthat our chains have been loosed
.
Think of just the words ofChrist in Luke 4 echoing in my
mind there too.
That's the message that thisworld that is bound by sin needs
to hear that there is thisfreedom that is to be found in
(14:49):
Jesus Christ, and so I want usto, just, I want us to lean into
that.
I think that's something we allneed, but it's something our
culture, our society reallyneeds right now, and so I want
us to embrace that.
I want us to embracecooperation and interdependence.
I want us to embrace that.
I want us to embracecooperation and interdependence.
This is another thing.
(15:10):
With the freedom that we havecongregationally, I think we can
focus so much on where eachcongregation is independent that
we neglect to consider the factthat God has given us this
bigger body, and we need eachother.
The body of Christ needs eachother body and we need each
other.
You know, the body of Christneeds each other, and, at least
for me.
I know I'm guilty sometimes ofthinking of that just within a
(15:32):
congregation.
You know that God equips thebody within a congregation, but
I think God has equipped thebody in a greater way too.
That's outside of thecongregational walls, and so I
think that we need to learn toembrace and really value
cooperation betweencongregations.
With the different nationalministries that we have.
We can come alongside you andwork with you, those kinds of
(15:54):
things.
Yeah, so those are some of thethings that I kind of see, I
guess, moving forward for us,that I would like to just really
see us lean into.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Well, I just affirm it, President Germstad man, you
can call me Micah, by the way.
I know I can, but I just giveyour office respect.
Leaders are constantly curatingand I would say, by the
Spirit's power, as Lutherans andconnected to the Word, curating
the gospel.
(16:23):
The gospel doesn't change Life,death, resurrection, ascension
of Jesus.
But how the gospel getscommunicated in time and space
is contextual, right, and youget the responsibility to say
this is the what that I see, andI am going to summarize purity
of the doctrine of ourconfession.
Freedom and not just freedomfrom one another, right, freedom
(16:48):
from any kind of, but freedomfor advancing collaboratively
the mission of Jesus.
And you get to cast vision anduse your words.
But then the how it gets.
I don't care if it's at thenational level or it's at the
local, congregational level oranywhere in between.
That's just the call ofleadership.
This is a leadership podcast,micah.
Right Is to test out the what.
(17:10):
Now, what do you all think?
Is this, what this vision kindof lands?
And then we're going to worktogether on the how.
I'm not going to dictate thehow.
Anything more to say inresponse to that, though, micah.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
Yeah, no, I just I learned a lesson early on in my
time.
I was down visiting a new churchplant in San Antonio, texas,
and I was presenting the AFLCthey were applying to join our
body and and I kind of went on alittle bit of a rant on the
structural autonomy and becausethat's kind of what I'm used to
(17:44):
in my context that actually wasraising some red flags for them,
because a lot of them had comefrom these big kind of big box
church, non-denominationalchurches that were also
completely free of any authorityover them, but they had seen
within their walls theleadership the pastors exert, a
(18:04):
more power-hungry type ofleadership style, and so it was
very important to them that theyheard you know, either we have,
either we have, you know, astructure where the few leaders
(18:26):
in charge make all the decisions.
Nor is it.
You're on your own.
Good luck, you know, there'sgot to be a way that we can come
alongside and work together,and yes, it's, it's to share
resources and and encourage eachother and love one another, but
sometimes it is to hold eachother lovingly accountable too,
and I think that there's ahealthy, biblical way to do that
(18:47):
that, just, yeah, promotes thehealth of the congregation and
the greater body.
Speaker 4 (18:52):
Well, I have to say, one of the things that really
attracted me to the church thatI'm in right now becoming it
wasn't the label LCMS, really,it was the fact that I knew that
the pastors in this church wereheavily vetted, that there was
a really, really robust pastoralformation process, that there
was some form of organizationalstructure that would hold people
(19:14):
accountable, you know, let'ssay, you know, if some sort of
gross corruption happened, Iknew that that would be the case
.
And that gave me a lot ofcomfort being part of this part
of this church body.
Not that it was a, you know, adeal breaker, but I came from a
Pentecostal background.
That was how I was raised intoand it was.
It was an independent churchand you know it was there.
(19:36):
They were making things up asthey were going along.
They were making things up asthey were going along, and it
was very unsettling to me howthey were kind of, let's say, we
sometimes talk about theinnovation orthodoxy pendulum.
They were way off on thisinnovation side of things,
creating new thoughts anddoctrines to me that were
veering out of scripture, and Ididn't see any accountability
(19:56):
mechanism in that type ofcontext.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Yeah, I can't do ministry on my own.
It's not Tim's church, it'sChrist's church and then it's a
congregation of the LutheranChurch Missouri Synod, of which
we're in the PSD PacificSouthwest District, of which
there's five no seven othercongregations in my circuit and
we're kind of a funny, we'rekind of a super circuit because
Tucson has its own circuit.
(20:20):
So some of the Phoenix churcheslike gather together and I know
, hey, if we start doing orsaying something that's a little
off, we're going to have aconversation about it and we do.
And LCMS, so you look at, we'rean older church body, almost
(20:44):
200 years old, and so we havegreat points in our history
where innovation and I would saythe appropriate amount of
innovation you think LutheranHour, you think our
international missions and awhole bunch of departments kind
of getting raised up and many,many faithful leaders over many,
many generations leading us tobe one of the top two or three
(21:09):
largest Lutheran, confessionalLutheran denominations.
And I'm keeping from talkingabout the Evangelical Lutheran
Church of America because theyhave some stuff that is, there's
some struggles there, I wouldsay.
But we're one of the largerdenominations and that comes
with a whole bunch of blessingsand some things.
We've got to continue to workon as well as you.
As an outsider, kind of look atthe LCMS, what do you say?
(21:31):
Wow, this is a jewel, a gem,and this is something maybe to
watch out against there,president Germsath.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
Yeah, you're talking specifically about the LCMS.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Sure yeah.
I mean, what do you know aboutour church body and our history?
Anything, yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
Yeah, you know enough , I guess, um, enough to get me
in trouble.
Is that?
Is that a bad thing?
To say yeah, no, I, I, I reallyappreciate.
Uh, the LCMS is a zeal for theLutheran confessions.
Um, some of Some of the circlesthat I am a part of, you know,
sometimes they have a little bitof a squinty-eyed approach to
(22:06):
that, and I think it's in theirmind.
It's because there's then thisdanger of placing the
confessions over scripture, andI think that comes from a
misunderstanding that nobody, atleast that I've ever
encountered in the LCMS, has anydesire to place the confessions
over Scripture.
It's just, very simply, that webelieve the confessions are a
faithful exposition of whatScripture teaches and that
(22:28):
they're a beautiful, wonderfulteaching tool to help us
understand what Scripture says,but that Scripture is the final
authority, and that's somethingI've just always again
appreciated about the LCMS and Ifind a great kindred spirit in
that, and so I praise God forthat.
I think the LCMS has a standardof excellence too that I
(22:49):
appreciate.
I think there are times when,again, in our zeal to or I
shouldn't use that word, maybe,but in our desire to be
unorganized and there's goodreasons for that I think
sometimes that can promote or atleast bring a temptation to
(23:13):
laziness, and even theologicallaziness, so to speak, and so I
really appreciate the standardof excellence that the LCMS has,
at least as I perceive it, andI don't mean to accuse our group
of being theologically lazyeither, but I think that can be
(23:34):
a temptation there and it'ssomething I'm a little bit
sensitive to, and so I'mgrateful for that.
One of the things that I'vepersonally and professionally
benefited from is, just becauseof the size of the LCMS and the
resources that you all have,we're able, and because of your
grace to include us too, we'reable to join you in some things
(23:56):
like Lutherans for Life.
I mean, I don't know if it's athird or something like that of
the national board right now iscomprised of AFLC members, and
so we've just got a greatpartnership there and
recognizing it's not our deal,it's your deal, but that you
invite us in and we can worktogether that way, and I think
(24:18):
that's great.
I had a great experience lastyear with the Minnesota South
District.
It was a coordinated effortwith the North District as well.
But the state of Minnesota hasbeen up to some political
shenanigans I'll just call itthat way and I mean some stuff
that was just very blatantlyoppressive towards Christians
(24:41):
and Christian groups andorganizations, and I was invited
to be a part of having aLutheran response to that
officially, you know, and tohave my voice heard by state
officials was something I wasjust really grateful to partner
(25:02):
with with my Missouri Synodbrothers and sisters that way at
our Capitol, and so I just I'mjust grateful for some of the,
some of the ways that we've beenable to work together that way.
You know, we certainly have somedisagreements on on some
structure, uh and and politythings.
There's there's somedifferences there, Uh,
(25:23):
theologically I I wouldn't saythat we necessarily disagree
much on on communion, but we dopractice it differently, Uh,
just a little in terms of, youknow, I think our altar is
probably more open than than, uh, the vast majority of of
Missouri Synod altars and uh,and so we've got some
differences there.
But overall I'm just gratefulfor the work and the ministry of
(25:46):
the LCMS.
Hey, that's wonderful Jack.
Speaker 4 (25:50):
No, I'm just kind of curious that openness, is that a
congregational decision or isthat a national body decision on
that position for communion?
Speaker 3 (25:59):
Probably the best answer is that it's a
congregational decision.
I would say that withincongregations I've seen some
that will practice theiropenness.
That actually isn't that farfrom, if at all, from the
Missouri Synod practice of more.
If you want to use closedcommunion or closed communion,
(26:20):
however you want to say that, sowe do have a few that do that
and that's their decision.
But the vast majority of ourcongregations would say you know
, do you believe that you're asinner?
Are you a sinner?
Do you need God's forgiveness?
Do you believe that Christforgives your sins?
And do you believe that Christis really present in the bread
(26:41):
and the wine?
And if that's true, then if youcan answer those questions in
the affirmative, then you'rewelcome at our table.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
That's good.
I am not talking aboutformation anymore on podcasts
publicly, but I am curious abouthow you raise up leaders in
your church body and not justpastors.
What is that upward draft?
This is a leadership podcast.
What does that upward draft ofleadership development look like
in the AFLC?
Speaker 3 (27:10):
So officially, that happens at the congregational
level first and foremost,especially when you're talking
about lay leadership.
We haven't had a very robust orintentional work that I've
observed over the years indiscipling lay leaders.
(27:30):
We have had some of it, butit's for a very specific group
and that's for lay pastors, andthat's maybe another difference
that we would have with the LCMS.
We're more open to lay pastorsserving congregations and we
have a roster for lay pastorswho can get licensed with us and
(27:54):
go through some of that vettingand accountability that we
talked about earlier.
But even then we have a lot ofchurches that are served by lay
pastors who aren't rostered withus and we don't know who they
are, you know, or anything likethat, which is, I think, a
little bit unique that way, andthat's a congregational
authority to do that.
(28:14):
Yep, yep.
So the congregation has theauthority to do that.
So we have had some mechanismsfor developing leadership,
pastoral leadership for laymenand then other, you know,
rostered ordained pastors areinvited to join some of those
sessions.
Women can join those sessionstoo.
(28:36):
We don't have a path forrostership or ordination for
women.
We, I would say we're verysimilar with the LCMS in that,
in in that regard, and what webelieve about, about the, about
women in the office of of theministry, but, um, but there are
certainly invited to take someof those leadership classes, uh,
that are designed more for layleaders, but that's, that's it
(28:59):
and it's.
It's one.
It's historically been justkind of one week a year, um, of
uh, usually in-person uh classeshere on our campus and and
that's about it.
So, uh, what?
When I came into office, um, Ihired uh, uh a ministry
associate, an assistant, who, uh, that was my number.
(29:21):
First thing that I put on hisjob description was develop a
leader's training program andyou can incorporate our
licensure stuff for lay pastors.
But I want it to be much morebroad in scope than that,
because we've got a kind of agap here.
We just haven't done a greatjob of, in my opinion of
intentionally providingresources and training and
(29:43):
encouraging leadership, not justpastorally.
But you know, we are a.
One of the identifying markersof who we are is our emphasis on
the value of lay leadership atthe congregational level and the
national level.
All of our national boardsrequire us to have majority lay
(30:04):
representation, and so if wevalue that, we should be
investing in promoting anddiscipling lay leaders, and so
we've been working on that herefor the last couple of years,
and then now this year we've gotkind of an initiative put
together where I put somematerial together and am making
(30:26):
that available for me to go outand start doing some training in
our districts.
Even I would do itcongregationally too, but I
think you have a broader reachif you can catch multiple
congregational representativesin one event, and so we're
really trying to trying toimprove in that area.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
How's it being received?
You're training Great.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
Yeah, we're in the early stages of it.
I actually was just writing areport for our national
convention, which happens inJune, kind of kind of presenting
it.
But I've already had someevents where I've spoken at it
and there's there's a hunger forit just because I think it's
been a it's been a need thathasn't been met yet, and so I'm
excited to see what happens.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
Well, you're using your coaching and PE background
to shape your education right.
Coaches are obviously the best.
Coaches are teachers, thosethat offer words of wisdom and
care and then get all of God'speople out into the kingdom,
expanding work and giving themthe word and and which we have,
(31:24):
and the way then of Jesus tocarry out in all of our
different vocations Gospelproclamation, praise, be to God.
So how has coaching kind ofshaped your leadership as
president?
Speaker 3 (31:34):
Yeah, I mean, you kind of said it.
You know the people kind ofchuckle a little bit when, when
I say that my, my bachelor'sdegree was in physical education
, I went to school to be a gymteacher, that seems to be a
little bit of a leap to them forwhatever reason.
But I have, you know, thattraining that I received really
(31:56):
gave me a passion and a joy inteaching.
You know, that's where I reallystarted to learn that that God
had gifted me, uh, to be ateacher and and so I think that
that has that has really helpedme.
And then, and then the coachingside of things, um, I think,
really opened my eyes to what ittakes to lead a team and and,
uh, um, that's where I reallyfirst kind of got introduced to
(32:19):
some of these leadershipprinciples and I saw firsthand
the consequences, good and bad,for different leadership
decisions.
And so I haven't coached forprobably almost 15 years, so I
haven't maintained that I justget to be an armchair coach now
(32:39):
watching games on TV, but.
But I would definitelyattribute my background in it to
kind of starting to open myeyes, to see my, my desire to
not only not only developquality leadership traits in
myself, but to then teach it toothers.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Yeah, we talk about difficult conversations maybe
last question here a lot and wehave them quite frequently in
our congregation right to loveand challenge one another on.
It could be around a structure,a financial decision.
It could be around maybe aculture that's being established
that is less than helpful.
(33:17):
And you know, gossip is alwaysa thing.
And, jack, I'm not speaking toany one thing, if you're trying
to guess.
I'm just speaking what we knowthe way Satan works, right, he
seeks to steal, kill, destroyand divide us.
And so leadership at the locallevel is it's constantly saying
where are we going?
This is the way I like todefine kind of leadership.
(33:38):
Where are we going?
So that's a vision.
How are we going?
So that's a vision.
How are we going to get there?
We're going to work together.
That's strategy.
And then, how well are weloving one another on the way to
there?
Like Jesus loved, and Jesusloved through both words of
encouragement and words ofchallenge, and that's culture.
So how are you trying to leadlike that and get people?
(34:01):
Because the tendency, peoplethat disagree with one another,
they'd rather keep it tothemselves because uncomfortable
conversations they're namedthat for they're uncomfortable.
So we just rather sweep itunder the rug, and I think in a
German, norwegian, scandinaviankind of culture we can have a
tendency not to be as kind offorthright to one another's face
(34:23):
as we could and should betalking to one another about
places where we disagree, and soyour perspective as you lead in
the AFLC toward havingdifficult conversations, micah.
Speaker 3 (34:33):
Yeah, one of the things I appreciate about our
group is we really try to fostera family feeling type culture,
which has two edges to that,because I think that on the
negative side you can createkind of a very inward looking
group, right, and that can beproblematic too.
But seeing that we are thefamily of God, that we are
(34:55):
brothers and sisters and I usemarriage sometimes as an example
of this Marital unity, okay,doesn't always mean unanimity,
right, and that's true not justin a marriage but in a church
council or any kind ofleadership board.
And I've seen firsthand whereleaders inappropriately demand
(35:19):
unanimity to define unity andthat's abusive, frankly.
And we need to be able tocultivate and foster a culture
where people are free todisagree and that shouldn't be
that hard for us.
I think we make it harder thanit needs to be.
But I think if we start withthis baseline, that we are
(35:40):
brothers and sisters in Christ,that's that family thing.
And we are loved, we areredeemed, we are saved, we are
justified and made an heir ofheaven by grace, through faith
in the crucified and risen JesusChrist.
That is our identity, that isour status Now.
We don't need to proveourselves to others, we don't
need to have our way or else oranything like that, but we can
(36:05):
have joy in working together.
We can learn how to disagreewell.
And one of the things that Ireally appreciate about Lutheran
theology is that it quoteembraces tension, and I think
even of, like the doctrine ofsalvation.
Okay, we aren't doublepredestination people, we're not
Calvinist and we're notdecision theology people either.
(36:27):
We let God's word say that youare dead in your trespasses and
sins and you've been saved byGod's grace, and I praise God
for that.
And I think that that mindsetapplies to some of these other
practical things too.
And so we can learn to livetogether and live well together,
(36:48):
even though we disagree on somethings.
And I don't want to use likethe doctrine of salvation as an
example of that, because that ispretty basic.
But you know, like in the AFLC,we've got some differing beliefs
about eschatology.
Okay, we don't have an officialstatement on eschatology as a,
as an association, there'sfreedom there.
We, like I said, we don'tordain women, but there's
(37:10):
freedom within the congregationfor women to have different
positions of leadership andpeople have different opinions
on how that should go, and wecan learn to disagree on that
and still be united under thisone tent, and I just really
appreciate that.
I praise God for that.
(37:31):
I think when we can learn tocommunicate well and openly and
honestly together, againrecognizing and remembering that
we are a part of the samefamily, then I think that gives
us grace for one another andpatience and love and a
willingness to work together,even though we don't always fall
(37:51):
in line on every single issuewith everyone.
Jack comment.
Speaker 4 (37:55):
That's beautiful.
I love that.
The description of how we holdthings in attention right, I
think that's a beautiful thingto know.
There are areas where we evennow the church has to have
robust conversations about whatscripture means on certain
things and how that actuallygets applied in the local church
.
The Lutheran confessions arereally, really great, but
(38:20):
there's still a lot of thingsthat we freedom to have these
challenging conversations tospeak truth and love and to be
(38:44):
challenged by others in thespirit of love.
Right?
Speaker 3 (38:47):
Look yeah, sorry to interrupt.
Great Go for it.
I mean our people.
When I say our people, I mean Idon't mean our members, I'm
talking about our culture, oursociety.
I think they're hungry for that.
I think part of where thechurch capital C can get into
trouble a little bit is when werefuse to talk about these
(39:08):
things.
And if we can foster anenvironment of openness and
there isn't a question that youcan't ask, let's wrestle with it
, let's deal with it, let's lookto scripture.
I think our broader culture ishungry for that message and I
see a great opportunity againfor the church capital C so that
includes all of us to reallywitness to the people around us.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
group is because exactly they started to say
caesar's not lord, jesus is lord.
And oh, gentile women, poor,there's no more.
Now I'm shouting out togalatians right, and no more.
Our new identity has comebecause our life is hidden with
(39:55):
christ and so there's verylittle that you can say to me.
That's going to offend me,because my baptismal identity
says he's already said the firstand the final word in who I am
and therefore I live out thebest, the best posture.
Then I just live out of theadventure of Christian freedom
in trying to follow, by thespirit's power, the word and the
(40:16):
way and the work of Jesus,knowing that it's all passively
given and received.
What do you have that youhaven't received?
It's all from him.
And then I get to partner.
I get a partner in carryingthat gospel message out,
regardless of whether I'm apastor.
I'm just an everyday guy out inthe marketplace bringing the
gospel.
(40:36):
This is my new identity and myinvitation, and going away from
the power of positionalleadership.
It's good, we need leaders, butwe need leaders who are after
the heart and mind of Jesus, whotook the low place, humbling
himself even to the point ofdeath, and will very rarely, if
(40:57):
ever, use the voice of do thisbecause I say so.
You know, jesus, I've beenwanting to say this for a while.
Jesus came all authority soit's not like we're
anti-authority at all Allauthority in heaven and on earth
has been given to me.
And then you can say Jesus,this is kind of a wild move.
Therefore, I am sending you goand make disciples of all
(41:22):
nations, how baptize and teacheverything I've commanded you.
I'm with you always, the veryend of the age, and you will be
my witnesses in Jerusalem, judea, samaria, to the ends of ends
of the world.
And that's what we get to be apart of today.
Because Jesus is coming backvery, very soon and I pray he
finds us united in walkingthrough the hard stuff,
(41:43):
cross-cultural, our differentcontexts that we find ourselves,
and I'm praying we work up intohim, who is the head and leader
and Lord lover of our souls,and I'm grateful for your
expression of leadership.
I'm praying for the advancementof the gospel in the AFLC and
we covet your prayers, PresidentGermstad, as we carry out
(42:03):
gospel expansion in the LutheranChurch Missouri Synod.
Any final words there, micah?
Speaker 3 (42:08):
Yeah, just grateful for this opportunity, grateful
for you guys, grateful for ourbrothers and sisters in the LCMS
.
One of the most beautifulthings to me is to see how God
uses different groups to reachdifferent people with the gospel
(42:29):
and you said it well just ouridentity is so.
We can rest so well in who weare, in Christ, that we don't
need to be competing and I don'tmean to imply that there's any
undercurrents of that anywayeither here but just to be able
(42:52):
to have a spirit of thankfulnessfor how God is at work in
another group, and I'm gratefulfor that and grateful for how
God has used the LCMS for somany years and grateful for when
he brings us together to worktogether on different things too
.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
Amen, this is lead time.
Please like, subscribe, commentwherever it is you take in
these podcasts.
And again, we're not having theconversation because we're
leaving to join the aflc.
As awesome as you are, micah,we're just praying for our
church body and praying for theadvancement of the gospel.
People coming to know jesus inall of our churches takes all
(43:31):
types of churches to reach alltypes of people and then
carrying the message of christout into our various vocations.
Uh, please, comment and uh,please subscribe, whether it's
on YouTube or wherever it isthat helps get the word out and
we'll take.
I'm sure someone on the commentsection is going to say, well,
you guys should just leave andgo to the AFL.
No, no, no, we're a part of thefamily of faith here in the
(43:54):
Lutheran Church, missouri Synodand I'm better.
I'm better, micah, becauseyou're my friend and brother in
Christ and I'm praying for you,president Germstad, and your
leadership in the AFLC.
It's a good day.
Go and make it a great day.
Thanks so much, micah, thanksJack.
Speaker 4 (44:08):
God bless guys.
Speaker 1 (44:09):
You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the
Unite Leadership Collective.
The ULC's mission is tocollaborate with the local
church to discover, develop anddeploy leaders through biblical
Lutheran doctrine and innovativemethods To partner with us in
this gospel message.
Subscribe to our channel, thengo to theuniteleadershiporg to
create your free login forexclusive material and resources
(44:31):
and then to explore ways inwhich you can sponsor an episode
.
Thanks for listening and staytuned for next week's episode.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
True Crime Tonight
If you eat, sleep, and breathe true crime, TRUE CRIME TONIGHT is serving up your nightly fix. Five nights a week, KT STUDIOS & iHEART RADIO invite listeners to pull up a seat for an unfiltered look at the biggest cases making headlines, celebrity scandals, and the trials everyone is watching. With a mix of expert analysis, hot takes, and listener call-ins, TRUE CRIME TONIGHT goes beyond the headlines to uncover the twists, turns, and unanswered questions that keep us all obsessed—because, at TRUE CRIME TONIGHT, there’s a seat for everyone. Whether breaking down crime scene forensics, scrutinizing serial killers, or debating the most binge-worthy true crime docs, True Crime Tonight is the fresh, fast-paced, and slightly addictive home for true crime lovers.