February 14, 2025 • 53 mins
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Believers are called to resist the discouraging narratives of darkness and hopelessness by embodying empathy, vulnerability, and resilience. Through creative community engagement, Dr. Chad Lakies inspires a refreshed understanding of church as a beacon of light, extending beyond its walls into the world.
• Importance of resilience in the face of challenging culture shifts
• Engaging with communities through hospitality and authenticity
• Understanding and embracing a broader view of vocation
• Practical tools for creating spiritual conversations
• The need for love and empathy amid societal anger and fear
Find peace, clarity, and companionship for your spiritual journey.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is Lead Time.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Welcome to Lead Time.
I pray that the joy, thepassion for life, the calling
that Jesus has over you and yourbaptism, and the calling that
he has for you today to bringsalt and light into a dark and
dying world is propelling youfor a wonderful, wonderful
conversation.
I've been looking forward tothis one for some time, a
two-part episode with ReverendDr Chad LaKeys.
(00:25):
Let me tell you about Chad.
He wrote a brand new book andthis has been kind of making the
circuit.
It's called how the LightShines Through A Resilient
Witness in Dark Times, and Chadalso serves as the vice
president for ministryengagement here in the US at
Lutheran Hour.
Ministries Shout out to LutheranHour tip of the spear in terms
(00:45):
of evangelical work in theLutheran Church Missouri Synod.
We're going to hear a littlebit of his story, why this kind
of is important.
This work is important.
Not only was it connected tohis PhD, but it also is
connected to his life Before hewas introduced to the crucified
and risen one, jesus, and wasbrought into the family of faith
.
So this is going to be a greattime.
(01:06):
How are you doing, chad?
Feeling good?
I'm doing really well.
Thanks for having me, tim.
Yeah, this is going to be great, so just tell the kind of
origin story.
How did you come up with theidea how the light shines
through?
I mean light and dark.
It's such a powerful metaphorthroughout scripture.
What inspired you, though, towrite this labor of love for the
church, brother?
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Yeah, I think the church is really struggling with
the massively fast way it feelslike culture has changed in the
last 30 to 40 years.
And, as you mentioned, yeah, Icame into Christianity out of
unbelief a little more than aquarter century ago and church
and culture stuff has justalways been of interest to me.
(01:49):
I've always wondered about howthe church can better reach
people like where I was, righton the outside, and it seems
like that's just become more andmore difficult, more and more
scary.
And from inside the church Ihear so many assessments of our
culture and they're all verydark, they're all very often
(02:13):
negative, but even more it's asense of helplessness at times.
What do we do about this?
How do we engage?
There's a sense that we knowit's important we should be, but
, given all that's changed,everything that we were taught
about how ministry was going togo doesn't seem to be.
You know what works these days,so what will?
(02:35):
It's really frustrating andexhausting for a lot of folks
out there trying to do ministry.
So I wanted to kind of stepinto that space and see if I
could offer help, just based onthings that I've learned and
have found helpful.
I wanted to give them away.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
I couldn't agree with you more.
I mean, I can even go down that, that path.
I'm pretty optimistic generally, but but things are just so
different, like I don't know.
Maybe we can go here Even since, even since COVID, like the
acceleration or maybedeceleration in a lot of
(03:11):
churches I've heard, I've heardpastors I just came from from a
conference, I mean guys justsaying what used to work for us
in terms of community engagement, growing the church, et cetera,
is just it's just not not thereanymore and it can feel like
I'm throwing a whole bunch ofthings you know against the wall
and just trying to see what,see what sticks, what I do know.
(03:35):
I'd love to get your take onthis.
Like churches developreputations, I think within
churches and church bodiesdevelop reputations within the
Christian community and outsideof the Christian community.
All I know is I want those whothink about us as a church and a
church body but right here inmy context, in Gilbert, arizona,
the East Valley of Phoenix,when someone would think about
(03:58):
Christ Greenfield, what wouldthey think?
I mean, that's roughly ourbrand.
We got to be concerned aboutour reputation.
I think now more than ever arewe here actively for the
community, trying to add valueinto the community, meeting
people where they're at.
For us it sounds like feltneeds, divorce, grief, et cetera
, finance, or are we about, hey,you come here and you figure
out how we do it?
(04:19):
I think, if I could paint ageneral picture, churches that
are moving toward, I would say,over the top, hospitality, arms
(04:46):
wide open to meet people, notjust when you come onto our
campus, though we should beconcerned about that.
You know, I see the value ofthe local church and as I meet
Jesus, starting to follow himtogether in community.
Any observations there, as I'mtrying to paint a wider path
toward, I guess, arms wide openfor the community, rather than
you come and you learn.
Here's the thing too, in aChristian culture, I guess it
could work when you just open upyour doors and at least enough
(05:08):
people end up coming, eventhough you're internally focused
, because they share, you knowmaybe, the liturgy, they share
some of your values, christianethos, etc.
But that day is long since,long since passed.
So, yeah, any general thoughtsfor church leaders as we're
trying to go into the communitya little bit more Chad.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
Yeah, I think positive, winsome engagement is
always a thing.
One of the challenges that wehave is we're trying to make
this shift into a time when thatgoing out is required of us now
, whereas for so long it justwasn't.
And I wonder if it's just abasic assessment that those old
(05:45):
muscles in the life of thechurch are atrophied.
Right, we're not necessarilybad people or we just want to
have it our way.
It's just that we've lost asense of concern that that was
important because for so long itwasn't, we didn't have to pay
attention to it.
And now we're all of a suddenkind of realizing, and the
pressure's on us right,especially with young people.
We're seeing them leave andwalk away.
(06:07):
We're seeing antagonism fromthem about the church and the
long.
You know tried and true folksin the church, whether Lutheran
or otherwise, you know they'relooking at this exodus of people
and they're thinking we've gotto do something.
They're looking at thesociological data that comes out
from Pew and Gallup and thePublic Religion Research
(06:32):
Institute and a handful ofothers, barna.
All of them are saying the samething.
They're talking about thisobservable decline that people
are leaving and there is astrong feeling we've got to do
something about it, and that'swhat I wanted to speak into.
I'm not sure that everybodyquite knows what to do, but on
your point of hospitality, yeah,that's one of the things that I
(06:55):
did point out.
There is this ancient wisdom inthe scriptures and in the way
the early church has lived thatwe can lean back on.
I can't make that time happenagain.
We live in a totally differenttime and there are many reasons
we wouldn't want to go back tosome of those previous eras
which have been heydays of thechurch.
But there are good reasons tolean on this wisdom because
(07:18):
there's historical precedentthat shows this is how God seems
to operate.
He reaches down from heaventhrough the church to introduce
people to Jesus through winsome,hospitable relationships, and
that's often not in our churchbuilding, where they begin right
.
They begin outside of that andwe slowly, through our
relationships, our friendshipsbuilt on trust, god draws them
(07:41):
into the larger communitycentered around Jesus.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Amen.
We're really leaning in rightnow to raising up marketplace
leaders, kind of a new serveteam called Kingdom Builders,
learning to talk and engage withour marketplace leaders in a
helpful way, not just towardkind of resources and you know
time and talent, but like you'vebeen and treasures, but you've
been given a gift to be in themarketplace as and we have a lot
(08:10):
of a lot of leaders, you know,whether it's CEOs or mid-level
managers, et cetera, but that isthat is the mission field where
you can winsomely hospitablyengage people around spiritual
topics about meaning and purposeand purpose and where God is at
work or it feels like he's notat work in their life.
I think there are wonderfultools and training that we as
(08:31):
local pastors and leaders canoffer to our marketplace leaders
to help them engage morewinsomely.
Anything to add to that, chad?
Speaker 3 (08:38):
Yeah, I mean, I would say you never quite know how
God's going to work and whenit's going to happen.
But on the one hand there's awhole all this research out
there.
You know, for the long whilethe church has been interested
in these, these generationaldemographic buckets Right,
millennials, for a really longtime, and now Gen Z and a lot of
that research will saysomething has shifted
(08:58):
drastically from the silentgeneration and the baby boomers
and it really began to show upin Gen X that people aren't just
sort of going along with theway life is.
Doing my work, even if I hateit.
Right, there's a totally newgrowing sense that there are
different expectations.
For if I'm going to put all ofthis part of my life into doing
(09:24):
this and making money, I want itto be more meaningful than just
livelihood.
And then, as you kind of getinto that by asking questions,
you know.
So tell me, why are you doingthis work?
What really brought you into it?
How do you find it to bemeaningful or not?
Right?
And if you were to find themost meaningful fitting thing
for you, what would it be andwhy?
Those are really easy,conversational questions to ask
(09:46):
and I mean we encourage that.
We've just got a simple tool atLutheran Hour Ministries called
the Spiritual ConversationsCurve, and we teach people how
to discern where somebody mightbe their spiritual posture.
How do you know when they mightbe ready to engage with the
gospel, to hear about Jesus, andwhat do you do if they're not
(10:07):
quite ready?
Right, we've even got somestrategies for people who are
unreceptive.
But it's sometimes a reallylong slog up that hill of
dealing with somebody who's kindof antagonistic against the
church, turned off, maybethey've been hurt by it.
Who knows what their storywould be.
But we just try to teach you tolean into your God-given
empathy skills so that you canhear where someone's coming from
(10:29):
and walk through conversationsthat build trust and from there
you might be able to introduceJesus.
Right, it could be thosequestions I was suggesting a
minute ago, but it could be lifecircumstances.
You know a tragedy or a triumph.
You know something that's goingon that you can really connect
with and introduce.
Well, hey, how has God at workbehind that?
Do you think he had anything todo with this?
(10:50):
There are all sorts ofapproaches, right, that we can
take in a marketplace sort ofway, right, but there's not any
sort of script you've got to use, and I think that's the really
freeing thing about this toolfor anybody that I've ever
shared it with.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Can you give us just a brief overview of the
spiritual conversation curveLike?
What does that look and soundlike?
And it sounds like there arerespective questions as people
are different places on thatspiritual conversation curve,
can you?
Go deeper there.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
Yeah, I would say in a basic way it's made up of
three parts, and what might begreat is I'll try to give you a
link to this for some show notes.
I wish I had very handy alittle graphic of it so that
people could see, but basicallyit's a curve, so it's made up of
three parts.
There's a bottom portion wherewe really kind of fit people
(11:38):
into a spiritual posture.
We really kind of fit peopleinto a spiritual posture.
It's probably the mostimportant part of what we talk
about is getting listeners rightSomeone who knows Jesus, who
has a friend that they careabout.
They want to talk about Jesusmore.
With getting them to payattention to where somebody is.
They're either unreceptive,they're receptive or they might
(11:59):
be seeking, and then we have acorresponding element that goes
along with that a prayerfulfocus for someone who's in any
of those kind of buckets, right.
So as you discern where theyare, we're giving you a tool
about how to pray for them.
And it's really just forsomeone who's unreceptive that
God might open a door, that wecould gain a hearing, you know,
(12:21):
for somebody who is seeking Godmight open the door for us to
give them the good news.
For somebody who is seeking,God might open the door for us
to give them the good news.
And for somebody who is, youknow, really sorry switching
that up, because I don't havethe grammar For somebody who's
receptive, we're praying that wecould give them the good news.
And for somebody who's seeking,we simply want to be able to
guide them toward faith in themost faithful sort of way.
(12:42):
Right, which is as much, Ithink, an anxious experience for
Christians.
If we've got somebody who'sinterested, they want the goods
right, they want to figure outhow do I connect with Jesus?
How do I become a member ofthis church?
Should I become a member ofthis church?
What does that mean?
Right?
Those are all kinds ofquestions that I think at times
our people aren't reallyprepared to answer, and so I'm
(13:04):
just like, look, if you don'tknow the answer, it's a really
healthy time to say I don't know, but I know somebody who can
help, right, and then you can gowith them through some of that
process and bring more folks in.
And then in the middle it'sreally made up of these six
panels, right, For eachunreceptive, receptive or
seeking sort of person, whatkinds of conversations can you
(13:26):
try to prepare for.
And so for somebody who'sunreceptive, chatting about life
, relating about the goods andthe bads, the ups and downs that
happens, we're simply arguingthat this builds trust.
It's probably the leastexplicitly evangelical part of
the whole tool.
We're not about sharing ourfaith here.
We're about being careful andpaying attention to when they're
(13:48):
ready, but by loving them.
Well, right, it's the deeds ofcare and compassion for another
person that is its own witness.
And then you know, later on,when somebody who is receptive
well, I can talk then about howJesus fits into my life, how I
see God working in my life.
That's the very, you know,subjective way of talking about
(14:11):
it.
And then there's theconversation where we start to
apply the gospel to them.
The objective here's where youmight want to have one of those
tools like the Roman road or thebridge metaphor right, when you
draw the cross between God andus, you know, and Jesus makes
the bridge to reconnect us, orany other variety of tool that
exists out there like that, justa way to share the gospel with
(14:34):
them in a nutshell and say thisJesus, right, this gift of the
good news is for you.
And then for somebody who'sseeking yeah, it's really trying
to help answer their questions,right, and maybe talk about the
costs and benefits of followingJesus.
And I always like to say youknow, one of the costs is this
right, God says come to us asyou are.
(14:55):
You know Jesus expresses itthat way.
But the follow up to that isbut you're not going to be able
to stay that way, right, andthere's this element of dying to
self.
That's always part of followingJesus and it's a daily thing,
Right, Daily repentance, asLuther would talk about,
remembering your baptism, as hewould talk about.
But then there's the benefits,Right, and I love to talk about
(15:16):
our doctrine of vocation, whichI just don't think gets enough
use.
Right, it's, it's this treasurethat we have that doesn't get
enough attention or applicationin the church.
It's gotten more in the lastdecade or so that I've noticed.
But I just think it's so greatbecause even the most mundane,
ordinary, even gross, disgustingI don't want to do that sorts
(15:38):
of things can be the kind ofthing that are making an eternal
difference in somebody's life,all the way from changing a
kid's diapers to taking out thetrash every day at your house,
right, and then there's manymore glorious things, but the
doctrine of vocation just showsus the benefit of being caught
up into God's grand plan, wherehe reaches down through me, uses
my life to bless other people.
(15:59):
It's just incredible, right,and it's also a way of telling
the story, of gaining a hearing.
You know, for people in thatmarketplace, I think, thinking
about their calling and talkingusing that language.
It hits, it connects withpeople.
So that's kind of the tool.
In a nutshell, you went bottommiddle.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Is there a higher?
Did I miss?
Speaker 3 (16:19):
Yeah, so the higher part is the prayerful part over
the top of those conversations.
So as you're preparing to talk,you know there's a guided way
to pray.
It's very simple but there's aguide.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
Hey, this is excellent, Chad.
I took copious notes and Ican't wait to see the graphic.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
It's been anybody I've presented it to.
They find it so helpful.
They're just it's releasingright.
It isn't.
It's not not to say that DJames Kennedy's evangelism
explosion was wrong or bad.
Ours is a different tool.
It does it differently, butmany people taught in that
paradigm.
You know they're taught a veryspecific script.
Ours doesn't give you a script.
(16:58):
It liberates you into being afriend, right and using the
God-given skills of empathy,listening, waiting for the Holy
Spirit to fill your mouth withthe right words and then let him
work right.
The pressure isn't on you toget a sinner's prayer, as it
were, or to have somebody signup for adult baptism in the next
(17:19):
week's church service orenrolled in pastor's new member
class.
Hopefully, you know those willhappen along the way and it may
be through you.
It may not be, but we're hopingthat, by using the skills God's
given us, the Holy Spirit willbe at work deeply in the
background as we pray for him tobe at work in the hearts and
(17:41):
minds of these people that we'retrying to reach.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
I have to follow up.
So good, I have to follow up onvocation.
You think it hasn't got theairtime or we're increasing in
airtime.
I mean it was a huge revolutionin the Reformation in elevating
the priesthood of all believersin all of our respective
vocations.
I think that's one of thethings that Luther is probably
most known for in the widerchurch.
(18:05):
It's getting the scripturesinto the every man's hand so
that they can see God is at workout in the world and all the
places.
He's called me and sent me tobe his, to be his hands and feet
, his mouthpiece, and so it's soamazing.
So what?
What do we often miss?
Just today, in twenty twentyfive, on the topic of vocation,
you said we get caught up intoGod's grand plan.
(18:25):
Is that kind of?
Maybe our understanding of whatGod has called us to do is too
small, it's too narrow, it's notincorporated into how God does
his thing out in the world.
Say more there.
Chad, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
I think that's exactly one of the issues that's
challenging about it.
We are are always kind of inthe world, but not of the world
people.
But one of the ways that thechurch is influenced by the
world is the language ofvocation hasn't necessarily been
hijacked by the world, but it'sgone through a really serious
(19:03):
reduction in terms of what itmeans.
Vocation has really become, inour time, synonymous with job,
and, as I would teach this atConcordia University when I used
to be on the faculty there, Iwould always say to my students
every job is a vocation, but notevery vocation is a job, right?
We've got this whole set ofestates.
(19:27):
Luther called them I've triedto use the word realms.
There's really nothing kind ofin our time, spheres, if you
want to grab something from theReformed.
There's nothing really thatkind of applies in a direct way.
It's kind of good updatedlanguage for our time.
You just got to work through itand get used to the way Luther
talks, the way Lutherans talkabout it.
(19:47):
But I think, talking about thefamily right, and all the
various roles and relationshipsthey are their roles that come
with responsibilities, same inas a neighbor, right, and that's
just such a vague and generalcategory, and so I often like to
talk about our neighbor as theperson that God has equipped me
(20:09):
to serve in this moment, who hasa need.
Right, and that limits itsignificantly.
Like I don't have to take careof everybody, right, I've got
certain abilities to take careof certain kinds of people and
God brings them into my life,you know, making the possibility
of my service available to them.
You know, we've got theworkplace, and then we've got
(20:29):
civil society, the state.
You know a number of ways oftalking about that.
And then we've got civilsociety, the state.
You know a number of ways oftalking about that.
And then we've got the church.
Depends on which vocationscholar you read?
Sometimes it's four realms.
Sometimes these are kind ofsmashed together.
Often the household and work gotogether just because of the
Greek origin for the name ofhousehold and economy.
But we do our work, we work forour livelihood to support a
(20:55):
household.
So that makes sense.
But there are all these rolesand it's just so fascinating and
that's the grand plan that I'mtalking about.
You know, my calling isn't justthis job, it's not just this
career, it's these roles andresponsibilities, and he's
reaching down through me to meetthe needs of my neighbor
through my gift, skills, talentsand abilities on a regular
(21:17):
basis and look at how much I'mbeing cared for by all of these
people who may or may not knowJesus, but he's reaching down
through them in their stationsas Lutheran state or vocations
to care for me and other peoplein my life.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
I'm just going to be straight up, honest.
Thank you for that overview.
Sometimes in ministry, as apastor, the word and the way we
talk about vocation has beenboring.
Okay, it's just not captured myimagination.
You use the synonym callinglike that.
That kind of does something tothe heart and to the head.
(21:54):
It's like God is, God iscalling me out, he is there.
You know, God is already atwork in the world, wherever I
live, work and play, and he'sinviting me to listen to him and
respond to him and then respondin turn to other people.
So maybe for those of you whoare like me, who have looked at
vocation and it's so narrow wegot these categories you know
that God calling that, Godcalling me into these respective
(22:16):
spheres to be his mouthpiece,his hands and feet to respond to
the needs.
I love that to respond to theneeds of others.
Maybe that captures the heart alittle bit more.
Any, any follow up to that chat.
I'm not trying to throwvocation under the bus, but I'm
just saying, yeah, it'ssometimes hard, honestly, to
preach on if I don't have wordslike calling, because it just
gets so kind of heady ratherthan experiential, I guess Can
(22:38):
you follow up there.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
I absolutely feel you , and that is one of the
challenges of talking about someof these older teachings, right
, like, how do you relate tothose to our age?
Right, we find them so valuableas a rich part of our heritage.
But there's there's nothingwrong with using calling.
In fact, that's what the wordvocation means.
It comes from the Latin vocare,which means to call, you know.
(23:03):
The question then is who'scalling?
Right, and there are some otherplaces, like you can go to the
story of the prophet Samuel whenhe was young.
Right, you know I hear thisvoice.
And finally, he's guided to.
I'm pretty sure this is theright story, you know.
Guided to say you know yourservant is listening, you know
(23:27):
what do you want?
And then the other side of whatyou were talking about, all
these roles, I think, to go backto that comment I made about
the data we have, aboutdemographics and how the younger
generations are wantingsomething meaningful, something
fulfilling from life, if thereis any story that can give
meaning to a person's life, itis the story of being caught up
in God's, the grandeur of God'screation and the way that he
(23:51):
reaches down from heaven anduses us for his purposes.
I don't have to make it up, Idon't have to find my way.
My identity is not a task, it'sa gift, and that is a glorious
and liberating thing.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Well, that's the gospel.
It's God's grand love story forme, for the world, for my
neighbor, so much so that hesent his son to show me the
height and depth and breadth ofhis love, shown through a cross
and an empty tomb and the hopethat we have the calling of God.
I mean, that's why the earlychurch blew up like it did, is
because people, the gospel, hadbeen unleashed through the
(24:29):
Spirit's power to every man,woman, boy and girl to live this
entirely, entirely new way.
And maybe let's go down thispath.
I think it's so different it'shard for us and for me, even as
a communicator of the gospel, tocapture and only the Holy
Spirit can do that.
(24:49):
But for the everyday, you knowthey're sitting in our pews or
chairs, they're listening to theword consistently, but to help
them experience what it was liketo put themselves in these
shoes, I'm seeing so much powerright now in storytelling
connected to the biblicalnarrative and we just walked
through a trauma series, lookingat Peter, job, elijah and the
(25:10):
woman at the well in John,chapter four, and like doing a
deep dive, using even ourimagination.
Luther loved that.
He gave this invitation, usingour imagination, to experience
what it was like to be there onthe margins whatever.
So I think there's a struggle,though, for us to in the West,
with all of our, with all of it,all of the wealth, all of the
(25:32):
now, to put ourselves in theshoes of what it was like for
the first, second, third centuryfollower of Jesus, who was
experiencing suffering and loss.
Their life expectancy was farless Like they were just sold
out.
They'd encountered Jesus.
They were not afraid of death,they weren't afraid of Rome,
they weren't afraid of any otherauthorities, but they were
(25:53):
still.
They weren't jerks.
There was a winsomeness totheir call out into the world.
How do you help kind of the2025 believer place themselves,
I think, in the sense of HolySpirit, dependence and faith,
with a sense of urgency, but not, I mean, always be looked at
well by outsiders, and they weregenerally.
I mean always be looked at wellby outsiders, and they they
were generally.
(26:14):
I mean they were a weird groupof people.
To be sure, they're eating thebody and blood of Jesus.
You know there's all these kindsof weird insider, but they were
still the brand of the earlychurch and we know this because
it spread so winsomely right Toall four corners of the world.
It was just a different senseand I think the Holy spirit
could be doing something on that.
It was just a different senseand I think the Holy Spirit
(26:34):
could be doing something on that.
I don't think I know God isdoing something right now to
kind of capture that sense ofawe and wonder of what it was
like to live on the edge more inthe center.
Am I?
Am I painting an OK pictureLike how do we capture that
living on the margins ratherthan in the center?
Yeah, a little bit more today.
Speaker 3 (26:51):
Chad yeah, I, I heard a great sermon yesterday by my
pastor, just tremendous.
Um, I've heard a lot ofcomplaints.
So this was yesterday, was lifeSunday?
Um, in the in the churchcalendar, at least the one that
that we follow and I've heard alot of complaints over the years
of you know why?
Why doesn't your past?
Why don't pastors these dayssay you know anything negative
(27:13):
about you know what's going onin the culture?
Why don't they call out thingslike abortion or LGBTQ or
euthanasia, addictions andthings like that?
I hate that question because ifthe church has any really
(27:34):
significant reputation right now, it's being known for what
we're against.
That's right, and we get firedup by rallying speeches like
(27:55):
that that bind right, that holdcommunity together.
Works is when we all cometogether to talk about why we're
here and who we are, and partof that why we're here and who
we are is how we're set apartand different, but often better,
than people who are outside ofus.
Instead, my pastor went down atotally different route.
He didn't not name those things, but he went down the route of
saying he did not name thosethings, but he went down the
route of saying when we'retalking about life.
Here is what we're for.
(28:16):
When God is talking about life,here's what he is for.
And he went on to talk aboutthe healing ministry that we've
got going on in our congregationfor people who are addicts
right In a variety of ways.
(28:37):
There are three or four AAgroups that meet in our
congregation and then there'sgroups for people who are
connected to and have had todeal with the trauma and the
challenge of people who areaddicted right and how to care
for them.
Well, after you know, theystart to go through a different
way of life.
Right, it's a huge adjustmentfor not just the person but
everybody around them.
And he's talking about thesocial ministries that you know
where we're caring for, you know, not just people who had to
make the choice that we think isthe right one.
(28:58):
Right, which is don't have anabortion, carry that child.
But there's a whole lot to doafter that child has been born
and there are often a lot ofneeds to be met and often those
moms are alone in thosesituations.
They're brave and courageous inways many of us can never
understand, but there are waysthat we can support them.
So I don't know that.
You know, going back to theearly church that they did
(29:20):
anything radically differentthan what's possible for us.
I think one of the things ishaving a leader, like my pastor
yesterday, narrate for us whatit is we can do and what it is
we are doing, how we'recontributing to the good of the
world and lifting it up and howthat's just such a glorious
witness to these people who arecoming into our building, or
(29:41):
that we're showing up to theirplace, or that they're at least
receiving something from us toimprove their life and help them
to flourish that they wouldexperience that as a gospel
witness.
That's gentle, it's winsome,it's upbuilding.
It's not always hey, you canhave this if you come to our
church, or hey, you can havethis if you'll listen to a spiel
(30:04):
about Jesus.
It's building a relationshipfirst.
It's offering a space, offeringan opportunity and expecting
the Holy Spirit to be working inthe midst of that relationship,
however it might be happening.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Hey, yeah, couldn't agree more.
What is it about?
Anger and fear?
These are the two primarynegative emotions.
I would say pride could be athird, but anger and fear just
sell in the marketplace today.
I mean clickbait, this, thispodcast.
Sometimes we'll talk aboutthings that are a little bit
(30:38):
more, I guess, hard to talkabout in the church, kind of how
we're connecting to one another.
Right, and it's, it's wild.
Those podcasts get three, four,10, x.
You know the views and listens.
But I mean we were trying tohave the conversation in a
helpful, helpful way.
But sometimes there's somecontroversial topics that we
talk about.
(30:58):
And anger you can gather a crowdof people who get, and even we
use the term.
I don't think this is a shoutout to Jeff Gibbs and his work
on anger.
I don't think there is such athing as righteous anger.
I think, you know, judgmentbelongs to the, to the Lord, and
(31:20):
he's going to sort it all out.
And so I love that posture of,rather than working for um
toward what we're against,rather than working what we're
for, we, we must go in thatdirection.
I'm just, I guess, expressing asa local parish pastor, that is
(31:40):
not the quickest way to growyour church.
You know there are some churchesright here in the Valley who
went on one side or the other inthe political season that we
just walked through and madethese hard line.
You know we're vote the Bible,all this kind of stuff, and we
chose some may say we kind ofdid that.
We talked about some of theissues, some of the concerns,
but we did so in a winsome way.
But there were some churchesthat grew exponentially and
(32:01):
people just flocked to thosechurches because it was very
clear it was a rally, for I'mjust going to say it, it was a
rallying group for Trump, forPresident Trump, and God bless
him in his work and now thatwhat he's doing, and we're going
to respect all of our leaders,et cetera.
But the narrative can easilyChristians can easily get pulled
into that narrative of angerand really looking and, while
(32:24):
I'm going down the politicalsphere, really looking for one
man or one party to do what onlyGod can do.
No disrespect to PresidentTrump he cannot take care of my
greatest need, which isdefeating sin, death and the
devil for me and giving me alife of meaning and purpose.
Anything more to say, though,to pastors who may be moving
down that line of speaking intofear of our culture, rather than
(32:46):
arms wide open on what we'refor Chad.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
Yeah, I would say you know anybody who's experiencing
a lot of anger.
Right, you need more Jesus.
You need to take that to theLord.
Right, bonhoeffer would arguethat Jesus is the ultimate
author of the Psalms.
Right, and there are so manyoutlets there of kind of taking
your anger, your frustration,your exhaustion, your depression
, your resentment to the Lordand laying it at his feet and
(33:13):
unburdening yourself.
I don't know how many peoplehave brought up some of the
language of the black church inrecent years and through some of
their really sort ofJesus-minded, jesus-centered
leaders like MLK and John Lewisand some of the others, but I
think it was John Lewis thattalked about that.
Hatred is a burden to carryaround and in Christ we are
(33:34):
invited to unburden ourselvesfrom carrying around hatred.
And I would think, similarly,anger, resentment can pull
people together.
Right, when you didn't get yourway and you feel like
everything's being taken awayfrom you, that can be a rallying
cry that draws people together.
But I also think you're totallyright all those people together
(33:56):
.
But I also think you're totallyright, what we've lost in
American culture since the late80s is a sense of who we are and
what we're for collectively,and this affects the church.
What's happening in the churchis microcosmic of what's
happening in American culture,and what happened at the end of
the 80s was the Cold War came toan end and for the first time
in many, many generations wedidn't have anybody particularly
(34:21):
to be against, or any movementright, any sort of really big
ideal that ours was meant tostand up against, and so there's
been a vacuum and we've lurchedhere and there and an identity
talk really kind of rose up inthis time and the
over-politicization of justabout everything has happened
(34:43):
during that time, and so we cansee here's the social outcome of
having nothing that kind ofholds us all together as a
people, right, and then we seeit trickling over into the
church, right, the right and theleft in the church, you know,
and the zero-sum games you'vegot to be 100% for what I'm for,
(35:03):
or you're a terrible bad personwho's a sinner and going to
hell, or whatever the argumentmight be.
But these sort of outcomes andthe way they're articulated,
argued for, they're not the wayof Jesus, right?
He never let an issue prevent arelationship, and we're willing
to cut people off right andcompletely dissociate if we
(35:24):
experience disagreement fromthem, and we love to use that
language us versus them.
But the gospel is the mostinclusive kind of language that
there is.
And if we claim to be people ofthe gospel, right, we're people
for whom the blood of Christwas shed, and it was shed for
everyone.
(35:44):
Now, not everyone accepts that,and that's very clear.
But this is a message that Godhas given to us that we're meant
to steward and proclaim toanyone who can hear.
Right, we're all similarly madein the image of God, so there's
something indelible about everyhuman that when we cut them off,
(36:05):
we're cutting off something youknow divinely put together in
the hidden places of theirmother's womb.
Right, the fingerprints of Godare there and we're saying no,
and oftentimes not just no, butthey're less than human because
of what they think, believe, whothey follow, whatever.
And that's happening in Americaat large, but it happens in the
(36:29):
church as well, right, but ithappens in the church as well,
right, because I think the waythat we've lost our way as a
society, right, we're in theworld, but not of the world of
people.
But the church is inevitablyalways affected by what's going
on culturally around them.
And to the extent that we canrecognize that and become aware,
repent and God, help us right,help us move in a way that's
(36:55):
healthier for us to become thepeople that you want us to be,
so that we can be the witnessthat you've called us to be.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more.
I think you don't have to speakto this specifically, but I
will.
In the Lutheran Church MissouriSynod, a confessional, historic
church body, with all of thechanges in culture, it feels
like there is a narrowing moveright now Could be around
(37:23):
worship or looking and sayingthe right things, to kind of
distinguish ourselves as theright type of Lutheran.
And I don't know that that moveis winsome.
And one of the reasons I knowthis is true is I'm trying and
we're seeing some inroads heretrying to build bridges of love
and care and trust toward peoplein different contexts and
(37:45):
different roles so that we canhave compassion for one another,
to not shut off the image ofGod, the gifts, the unique gifts
that come for people in alldifferent vocations, all
different callings in our church.
But there is a spirit ofsilence and tribalism that I'm
praying that spirit would justbe rooted out so that the gospel
, the gospel truths from thescripture, from the confessions,
(38:08):
would have a wide, wide reachright now.
I think this is a great day tobe a Lutheran, because what
we're basically talking aboutfor those of you who are not
aware, you're like it's themiddle way of it's
attention-filled law, gospel,saint and sinner now, and not
yet realities, the right andleft-hand kingdom.
It's the middle way of Jesus.
(38:29):
Jesus, he welcomes everyone.
And yet if you come to Jesuslike thinking well, I've kind of
figured it all out, like here'sthe way it's got to be, the
pharisaical spirit.
I think we have a tendency inthe LCMS right now toward that
pharisaical spirit.
(38:49):
Or on the other side, I come tohim broken, hurting, I've got
very few things to offer theKing of Kings and Lord of Lords.
And yet by his spirit's power,as I come to him with humility,
he says I'll take that, I'lltake that story, even the broken
parts of your story, and I'mgoing to connect that story to
my grand story.
And off we go in this grandadventure.
Like I want that grandadventure spirit, the God's
higher calling, to be present inthe Lutheran Church Missouri
(39:12):
Synod with leaders at everylevel.
So I like let's go down thispath.
I like your drumming analogy.
We need to learn to play orlive softer rather than harder.
You could also talk about theelephant and the rider metaphor.
That's super helpful.
So you could also tie this allinto our struggles with church
being in fight mode, not just atthe local level, but even in
(39:33):
different pockets of our synod.
I think this will be very, veryhelpful.
Chad Go ahead.
Speaker 3 (39:37):
Yeah, you know, to go back to the idea of when we
don't know as a collective whatwe're for and therefore
everything kind of feels chaotic.
I think what we're experiencingin American society, in our
church but in a variety of otherchurches I try to read widely
(39:58):
and pay attention we're notunique.
What's happening, but as humanbeings, as collectives of human
beings, sociologically, we'retrying to find something that we
can control.
Can control, and I don'tbelieve anybody that I may
(40:19):
disagree with is somehownefarious just because we
disagree.
I think probably I've got anidea of how things should go.
They've got an idea of howthings should go and they're
trying to make their best darnefforts to get us in that
direction, right To do somethingthat they believe is faithful
to Jesus.
And to the extent that we'renot aligned in that, I think we
should probably try to talkabout it and understand one
(40:41):
another.
But at the same time I thinkit's more important to start out
with a posture of when Idisagree with somebody, that
doesn't make them my enemy,right From wherever I'm coming
from, whether we're talkingabout the deepest convictions we
have theologically or thedeepest convictions we've got
(41:03):
morally or politically as weengage with people.
That lends to be able to seethem as Jesus sees them.
His blood was shed.
Someone made knit together thedeepest fabric of their being by
the hands of God himself.
That changes everything aboutour posture to any other Right.
(41:29):
That includes people that wefeel like you know they're on
our side, we're in totalagreement, we get along super
well, and people that that youknow it's a little bit rough to,
to try to make some inroads inwith and get along with.
Um, I've, I've appreciated theprivilege to, to be able to talk
to just about anybody like that, and and God has used me in
(41:52):
that way and I I really want tokeep doing it, so, um and yeah,
it's kind of, it's kind of funny, Um, and it's not funny.
Speaker 2 (42:03):
I guess it's Holy spirit funny in that every time
I get together with someone thatI know we could talk about some
issues that that are we havedifferent opinions on, et cetera
, every time I get with themface to face, the Holy Spirit
shows up and shows off and weend up leaving, uh, liking each
(42:24):
other, not just tolerating,every time.
Speaker 3 (42:27):
Yeah, eat a meal together, drink a beer together.
I mean, look at what Jesus didover and over and over again
right Table fellowship in in thebasic way, right.
Not capital T, capital F tablefellowship, but just basic have
a meal together, right.
And it just does something tous.
It's a primal thing.
All of us human beings have gotto eat.
(42:49):
I used to joke with my students.
I said do you remember when youwent out on your first date and
you had to let somebody watchyou eat?
And we don't think about thatanymore, but it was a vulnerable
thing in that moment.
And to eat together just takesus to the basic levels of who we
are as human beings and it justopens a space for conversation,
(43:11):
for fellowship and for theability to relate to one another
.
To relate to one another.
That's different than doing itover the medium of the interwebs
or, you know, even in the oldway of doing things right,
publishing journal articles anddisagreeing with one another
(43:34):
over a period of months andmonths, or the way Luther used
to do it, writing letters andkind of going on a tear and all
the language that he would use.
That just absolutely, you know,we would all say it's totally
politically incorrect andinappropriate.
These days, you know, we kindof look at it and laugh.
It's humorous to read how hewould get along with his fellows
and his peers and people whomhe liked a lot and cared for a
(43:55):
lot.
I think that's the reason hewrote the way that he did very
much.
But yeah, our approach, ourposture, these things aren't
difficult, but it does take somevulnerability.
Speaker 2 (44:08):
Definitely, I think that's the word Humility,
vulnerability, authenticity.
I'm showing up as one humanwith certain ideas.
I got gifts, I got gaps and Ineed the gifts that God has
given to you and I want to workfrom a place I liked, how you
and I first met because thefirst thing that happened was,
(44:29):
you know, we sat and drank abeer, but you just pummeled me
with question after questionafter question and I'm like, I
feel like I'm being selfishbecause I'm not asking him
anything about himself.
Speaker 3 (44:38):
I feel like I'm being selfish because I'm not asking
him anything about himself.
So I mean it's that basic right.
We humans know how to do this.
That's why, you know, I go backto the God-given gifts of
empathy.
Right, we know how to do thisthing called sharing Jesus with
other people.
We know how to have friendships.
We know how to haveconversations.
We know how to haverelationships.
We act like it's an impossiblechallenge these days because you
(45:03):
never know what what's going tohappen.
Is the relationship going to bebroken?
Is somebody going to yell atyou or you're going to have to
disagree and conflict avoidanceis pretty normal for us humans.
But asking questions that thatchanges the whole tenor of
things.
Right.
Showing curiosity, beingvulnerable right.
If you listen to somebody forlong enough, the likelihood that
(45:25):
they're going to want toreciprocate and listen to you
and where you're coming from.
I love that from Daryl Davis,right, he does a lot of work.
He's a black man, he does a lotof work with white supremacists
and the Ku Klux Klan and hejust asked them how can you hate
me without even knowing me?
And for so many of thoseconversations they've turned
into lifelong friendships.
Some people have left the whitesupremacy cults and the Ku Klux
(45:48):
Klan and he's just trying to bea human being to other humans.
You know he's trying to askthem can you see my humanity?
But by doing so he's showingthem he sees their humanity in
full and it just ends upchanging things.
Speaker 2 (46:03):
It's so so great I have so many other questions,
chad that we're going to get toto dig into the book.
I don't know, I didn't evenhardly talk about any of the
things I thought I was going totalk about, but this was so much
fun.
We're going to do part two heresoon.
That will be released, the nextpodcast here with lead time
that comes out.
What final, final question, asyou look at the book, as you
(46:24):
look at the book, was there likecause I write and say more and
then I forget what I wrote orsaid?
You know cause you're moving onto the next thing that you're
curious about, et cetera.
But if there was like onesticky thing that you're like,
this changed me when, when I hadthat aha moment with the Holy
spirit connected to the personand work of Jesus as I wrote
this book.
This is, this is the through,this is the thread that I just
(46:46):
want to hold on to and what mymy readers to hold on to as well
, with how the light shinesthrough.
What would that be, chad?
Speaker 3 (46:53):
Yeah, the one thing that that just strikes me as as
um probably most pressinglyimportant for people to pay
attention to is that thirdchapter, how not to let issues
prevent relationships.
And it seems to have been oneof the things that just kind of
hit a nerve in my presentationswhen I've talked about this.
(47:13):
But for me it goes back to justa moment that God used that I
remember that kind of broughtabout the name of that chapter
in a way.
I was sitting with an oldfriend of mine.
Paul Lindeman used to be theNorthwest District President.
We had the chance to visit withhim on occasion when I was
teaching at Concordia Portland,because we would always do, you
(47:36):
know, some get togethers withpeople, other faculty members,
even other theological facultyfolks, and then you know
district staff and pastors fromaround the area.
So Paul's coming in one time andhe's just, I think, very
offhand, telling us about aBible study that he's, you know,
preparing for some group ofpeople that he's about to spend
time with, and he's talkingabout John, chapter four, the
(47:59):
story of the woman at the well,and he just offhand said Jesus
never let an issue prevent arelationship and if anybody,
she's one of the primary peoplein the scriptures.
That has a lot of issues, right,and he calls them out in his
very gentle sort of way thatonly Jesus can.
But that stuck with me like theHoly spirit just took that and,
and you know, put it inside myhead in a way that I couldn't
(48:23):
forget.
So I definitely give a littlecredit to him and there for that
kind of language.
But.
But I wanted to talk about thehow right and then point people
to Jesus in terms of he, he doesthis with us right.
Of all people who have issues,it's me and you but he doesn't
let any of our issues prevent arelationship and in a sense,
(48:44):
we're called to go and dolikewise Because he has forgiven
us and empowered us to livelike him.
We're therefore empowered toset aside issues with other
people and not let them preventa relationship.
Speaker 2 (48:59):
That's love it, love it.
I just preached, actually, onthe nameless woman at the well
yesterday and in our traumaseries and we, everybody one of
the things that stuck with meeverybody has a story and Jesus
hints at her story.
We don't know even all thedetails of the five husbands.
You know, was there shame,potentially, but I think there
(49:22):
was probably more.
She's a woman of pity, beendivorced Women couldn't seek
divorce in that culture.
That's likely a part of it.
And she probably has a widow,maybe one or two or three times,
three times over.
And now the man she's livingwith right now we have this like
oh, it's sexual, it'simmorality and it may, maybe, I
guess, but it could be that thatshe's just with a man who's
(49:47):
providing because all the men inher family have died or left.
There's a man that's kindenough to provide her protection
in his household.
So there's always other anglesto the stories and when Jesus
looks at us, I don't think helooks at us with like contempt
(50:08):
or anger.
It's over the top.
It's over the top love.
The look at Peter after hisdenial right Luke brings out,
after he's denied Jesus, knowinghim three times, a very serious
thing to do.
Jesus looks at him with loveand I think to bring it home
with a Lutheran lens right, it'snot about you knowing me, it's
I know you, I know you and I'mdoing this, I'm doing this for
(50:30):
you.
So this has been so fantastic.
If you haven't got the book yet,how the Light Shines Through
Resilient Witness in Dark Times,it's fantastic.
I actually we're just finishing.
I think you have 10 chaptershere or so.
The last 10 weeks.
The 6 am study that I've beendoing with a number of it just
turns into male leaders.
(50:50):
Dudes get up, women are welcome, but a number of our vicars,
our learners, our leaders gettogether every Sunday at 6 am
and this is for the last threemonths or so has been our book
of choice and it's blessed them,it's blessed us immensely, chad
.
So thank you, thank you, thankyou.
Speaker 3 (51:05):
I'm so thankful for that.
Yeah, I think I think the bestgift that you can give to an
author you know beyond hey,write me a recommendation if you
found it helpful is just totell me that you found it
helpful.
Right, that's all I really wantto do in giving this away is
(51:26):
God.
I pray this is helpful to thechurch and hearing from people
like you that you're finding itto be that that's just such a
great gift.
It's so humbling that Godreviews me that way.
Speaker 2 (51:30):
Praise God.
If people want to connect withyou, how can they do so?
Chad.
Speaker 3 (51:34):
Yeah, I mean my Facebook is pretty much open.
I don't post a lot on there butoccasionally, so you can find
me out there.
But otherwise it'd bechadlakies at l-h-m dot o-r-g.
Speaker 2 (51:47):
And that's chadl-a-k-i-e-s.
Lakies, You're a gift man andexcited for going a little
deeper into a number.
You have so many, so manyrelevant talking points that
we're going to be hitting on inour follow-up to this
conversation.
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
This is lead time, Likesubscribe, comment wherever it
is, Wherever it is that you—soI've got to pause as I'm closing
(52:07):
here For other people to hearthese helpful conversations
centered in the person and workof Jesus in the Lutheran Church,
Missouri Synod and hopefullyoutside.
When you subscribe and orcomment, that really helps get
the word out to more folks.
So, thank you, Thank you.
Thank you, Chad.
As always, man, you're a friendand thank you for your
generosity of time.
Speaker 3 (52:28):
Tim, thanks for having me, for the great
conversation, the greatquestions, as always.
Speaker 1 (52:49):
I look forward to next time.
All right, bud, god bless, seeyou Peace.
You, god bless, see you Peace.
To create your free login forexclusive material and resources
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No-transcript.
This is Lead Time.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Welcome to Lead Time.
I pray that the joy, thepassion for life, the calling
that Jesus has over you and yourbaptism, and the calling that
he has for you today to bringsalt and light into a dark and
dying world is propelling youfor a wonderful, wonderful
conversation.
I've been looking forward tothis one for some time, a
two-part episode with ReverendDr Chad LaKeys.
(00:25):
Let me tell you about Chad.
He wrote a brand new book andthis has been kind of making the
circuit.
It's called how the LightShines Through A Resilient
Witness in Dark Times, and Chadalso serves as the vice
president for ministryengagement here in the US at
Lutheran Hour.
Ministries Shout out to LutheranHour tip of the spear in terms
(00:45):
of evangelical work in theLutheran Church Missouri Synod.
We're going to hear a littlebit of his story, why this kind
of is important.
This work is important.
Not only was it connected tohis PhD, but it also is
connected to his life Before hewas introduced to the crucified
and risen one, jesus, and wasbrought into the family of faith
.
So this is going to be a greattime.
(01:06):
How are you doing, chad?
Feeling good?
I'm doing really well.
Thanks for having me, tim.
Yeah, this is going to be great, so just tell the kind of
origin story.
How did you come up with theidea how the light shines
through?
I mean light and dark.
It's such a powerful metaphorthroughout scripture.
What inspired you, though, towrite this labor of love for the
church, brother?
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Yeah, I think the church is really struggling with
the massively fast way it feelslike culture has changed in the
last 30 to 40 years.
And, as you mentioned, yeah, Icame into Christianity out of
unbelief a little more than aquarter century ago and church
and culture stuff has justalways been of interest to me.
(01:49):
I've always wondered about howthe church can better reach
people like where I was, righton the outside, and it seems
like that's just become more andmore difficult, more and more
scary.
And from inside the church Ihear so many assessments of our
culture and they're all verydark, they're all very often
(02:13):
negative, but even more it's asense of helplessness at times.
What do we do about this?
How do we engage?
There's a sense that we knowit's important we should be, but
, given all that's changed,everything that we were taught
about how ministry was going togo doesn't seem to be.
You know what works these days,so what will?
(02:35):
It's really frustrating andexhausting for a lot of folks
out there trying to do ministry.
So I wanted to kind of stepinto that space and see if I
could offer help, just based onthings that I've learned and
have found helpful.
I wanted to give them away.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
I couldn't agree with you more.
I mean, I can even go down that, that path.
I'm pretty optimistic generally, but but things are just so
different, like I don't know.
Maybe we can go here Even since, even since COVID, like the
acceleration or maybedeceleration in a lot of
(03:11):
churches I've heard, I've heardpastors I just came from from a
conference, I mean guys justsaying what used to work for us
in terms of community engagement, growing the church, et cetera,
is just it's just not not thereanymore and it can feel like
I'm throwing a whole bunch ofthings you know against the wall
and just trying to see what,see what sticks, what I do know.
(03:35):
I'd love to get your take onthis.
Like churches developreputations, I think within
churches and church bodiesdevelop reputations within the
Christian community and outsideof the Christian community.
All I know is I want those whothink about us as a church and a
church body but right here inmy context, in Gilbert, arizona,
the East Valley of Phoenix,when someone would think about
(03:58):
Christ Greenfield, what wouldthey think?
I mean, that's roughly ourbrand.
We got to be concerned aboutour reputation.
I think now more than ever arewe here actively for the
community, trying to add valueinto the community, meeting
people where they're at.
For us it sounds like feltneeds, divorce, grief, et cetera
, finance, or are we about, hey,you come here and you figure
out how we do it?
(04:19):
I think, if I could paint ageneral picture, churches that
are moving toward, I would say,over the top, hospitality, arms
(04:46):
wide open to meet people, notjust when you come onto our
campus, though we should beconcerned about that.
You know, I see the value ofthe local church and as I meet
Jesus, starting to follow himtogether in community.
Any observations there, as I'mtrying to paint a wider path
toward, I guess, arms wide openfor the community, rather than
you come and you learn.
Here's the thing too, in aChristian culture, I guess it
could work when you just open upyour doors and at least enough
(05:08):
people end up coming, eventhough you're internally focused
, because they share, you knowmaybe, the liturgy, they share
some of your values, christianethos, etc.
But that day is long since,long since passed.
So, yeah, any general thoughtsfor church leaders as we're
trying to go into the communitya little bit more Chad.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
Yeah, I think positive, winsome engagement is
always a thing.
One of the challenges that wehave is we're trying to make
this shift into a time when thatgoing out is required of us now
, whereas for so long it justwasn't.
And I wonder if it's just abasic assessment that those old
(05:45):
muscles in the life of thechurch are atrophied.
Right, we're not necessarilybad people or we just want to
have it our way.
It's just that we've lost asense of concern that that was
important because for so long itwasn't, we didn't have to pay
attention to it.
And now we're all of a suddenkind of realizing, and the
pressure's on us right,especially with young people.
We're seeing them leave andwalk away.
(06:07):
We're seeing antagonism fromthem about the church and the
long.
You know tried and true folksin the church, whether Lutheran
or otherwise, you know they'relooking at this exodus of people
and they're thinking we've gotto do something.
They're looking at thesociological data that comes out
from Pew and Gallup and thePublic Religion Research
(06:32):
Institute and a handful ofothers, barna.
All of them are saying the samething.
They're talking about thisobservable decline that people
are leaving and there is astrong feeling we've got to do
something about it, and that'swhat I wanted to speak into.
I'm not sure that everybodyquite knows what to do, but on
your point of hospitality, yeah,that's one of the things that I
(06:55):
did point out.
There is this ancient wisdom inthe scriptures and in the way
the early church has lived thatwe can lean back on.
I can't make that time happenagain.
We live in a totally differenttime and there are many reasons
we wouldn't want to go back tosome of those previous eras
which have been heydays of thechurch.
But there are good reasons tolean on this wisdom because
(07:18):
there's historical precedentthat shows this is how God seems
to operate.
He reaches down from heaventhrough the church to introduce
people to Jesus through winsome,hospitable relationships, and
that's often not in our churchbuilding, where they begin right
.
They begin outside of that andwe slowly, through our
relationships, our friendshipsbuilt on trust, god draws them
(07:41):
into the larger communitycentered around Jesus.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Amen.
We're really leaning in rightnow to raising up marketplace
leaders, kind of a new serveteam called Kingdom Builders,
learning to talk and engage withour marketplace leaders in a
helpful way, not just towardkind of resources and you know
time and talent, but like you'vebeen and treasures, but you've
been given a gift to be in themarketplace as and we have a lot
(08:10):
of a lot of leaders, you know,whether it's CEOs or mid-level
managers, et cetera, but that isthat is the mission field where
you can winsomely hospitablyengage people around spiritual
topics about meaning and purposeand purpose and where God is at
work or it feels like he's notat work in their life.
I think there are wonderfultools and training that we as
(08:31):
local pastors and leaders canoffer to our marketplace leaders
to help them engage morewinsomely.
Anything to add to that, chad?
Speaker 3 (08:38):
Yeah, I mean, I would say you never quite know how
God's going to work and whenit's going to happen.
But on the one hand there's awhole all this research out
there.
You know, for the long whilethe church has been interested
in these, these generationaldemographic buckets Right,
millennials, for a really longtime, and now Gen Z and a lot of
that research will saysomething has shifted
(08:58):
drastically from the silentgeneration and the baby boomers
and it really began to show upin Gen X that people aren't just
sort of going along with theway life is.
Doing my work, even if I hateit.
Right, there's a totally newgrowing sense that there are
different expectations.
For if I'm going to put all ofthis part of my life into doing
(09:24):
this and making money, I want itto be more meaningful than just
livelihood.
And then, as you kind of getinto that by asking questions,
you know.
So tell me, why are you doingthis work?
What really brought you into it?
How do you find it to bemeaningful or not?
Right?
And if you were to find themost meaningful fitting thing
for you, what would it be andwhy?
Those are really easy,conversational questions to ask
(09:46):
and I mean we encourage that.
We've just got a simple tool atLutheran Hour Ministries called
the Spiritual ConversationsCurve, and we teach people how
to discern where somebody mightbe their spiritual posture.
How do you know when they mightbe ready to engage with the
gospel, to hear about Jesus, andwhat do you do if they're not
(10:07):
quite ready?
Right, we've even got somestrategies for people who are
unreceptive.
But it's sometimes a reallylong slog up that hill of
dealing with somebody who's kindof antagonistic against the
church, turned off, maybethey've been hurt by it.
Who knows what their storywould be.
But we just try to teach you tolean into your God-given
empathy skills so that you canhear where someone's coming from
(10:29):
and walk through conversationsthat build trust and from there
you might be able to introduceJesus.
Right, it could be thosequestions I was suggesting a
minute ago, but it could be lifecircumstances.
You know a tragedy or a triumph.
You know something that's goingon that you can really connect
with and introduce.
Well, hey, how has God at workbehind that?
Do you think he had anything todo with this?
(10:50):
There are all sorts ofapproaches, right, that we can
take in a marketplace sort ofway, right, but there's not any
sort of script you've got to use, and I think that's the really
freeing thing about this toolfor anybody that I've ever
shared it with.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Can you give us just a brief overview of the
spiritual conversation curveLike?
What does that look and soundlike?
And it sounds like there arerespective questions as people
are different places on thatspiritual conversation curve,
can you?
Go deeper there.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
Yeah, I would say in a basic way it's made up of
three parts, and what might begreat is I'll try to give you a
link to this for some show notes.
I wish I had very handy alittle graphic of it so that
people could see, but basicallyit's a curve, so it's made up of
three parts.
There's a bottom portion wherewe really kind of fit people
(11:38):
into a spiritual posture.
We really kind of fit peopleinto a spiritual posture.
It's probably the mostimportant part of what we talk
about is getting listeners rightSomeone who knows Jesus, who
has a friend that they careabout.
They want to talk about Jesusmore.
With getting them to payattention to where somebody is.
They're either unreceptive,they're receptive or they might
(11:59):
be seeking, and then we have acorresponding element that goes
along with that a prayerfulfocus for someone who's in any
of those kind of buckets, right.
So as you discern where theyare, we're giving you a tool
about how to pray for them.
And it's really just forsomeone who's unreceptive that
God might open a door, that wecould gain a hearing, you know,
(12:21):
for somebody who is seeking Godmight open the door for us to
give them the good news.
For somebody who is seeking,God might open the door for us
to give them the good news.
And for somebody who is, youknow, really sorry switching
that up, because I don't havethe grammar For somebody who's
receptive, we're praying that wecould give them the good news.
And for somebody who's seeking,we simply want to be able to
guide them toward faith in themost faithful sort of way.
(12:42):
Right, which is as much, Ithink, an anxious experience for
Christians.
If we've got somebody who'sinterested, they want the goods
right, they want to figure outhow do I connect with Jesus?
How do I become a member ofthis church?
Should I become a member ofthis church?
What does that mean?
Right?
Those are all kinds ofquestions that I think at times
our people aren't reallyprepared to answer, and so I'm
(13:04):
just like, look, if you don'tknow the answer, it's a really
healthy time to say I don't know, but I know somebody who can
help, right, and then you can gowith them through some of that
process and bring more folks in.
And then in the middle it'sreally made up of these six
panels, right, For eachunreceptive, receptive or
seeking sort of person, whatkinds of conversations can you
(13:26):
try to prepare for.
And so for somebody who'sunreceptive, chatting about life
, relating about the goods andthe bads, the ups and downs that
happens, we're simply arguingthat this builds trust.
It's probably the leastexplicitly evangelical part of
the whole tool.
We're not about sharing ourfaith here.
We're about being careful andpaying attention to when they're
(13:48):
ready, but by loving them.
Well, right, it's the deeds ofcare and compassion for another
person that is its own witness.
And then you know, later on,when somebody who is receptive
well, I can talk then about howJesus fits into my life, how I
see God working in my life.
That's the very, you know,subjective way of talking about
(14:11):
it.
And then there's theconversation where we start to
apply the gospel to them.
The objective here's where youmight want to have one of those
tools like the Roman road or thebridge metaphor right, when you
draw the cross between God andus, you know, and Jesus makes
the bridge to reconnect us, orany other variety of tool that
exists out there like that, justa way to share the gospel with
(14:34):
them in a nutshell and say thisJesus, right, this gift of the
good news is for you.
And then for somebody who'sseeking yeah, it's really trying
to help answer their questions,right, and maybe talk about the
costs and benefits of followingJesus.
And I always like to say youknow, one of the costs is this
right, God says come to us asyou are.
(14:55):
You know Jesus expresses itthat way.
But the follow up to that isbut you're not going to be able
to stay that way, right, andthere's this element of dying to
self.
That's always part of followingJesus and it's a daily thing,
Right, Daily repentance, asLuther would talk about,
remembering your baptism, as hewould talk about.
But then there's the benefits,Right, and I love to talk about
(15:16):
our doctrine of vocation, whichI just don't think gets enough
use.
Right, it's, it's this treasurethat we have that doesn't get
enough attention or applicationin the church.
It's gotten more in the lastdecade or so that I've noticed.
But I just think it's so greatbecause even the most mundane,
ordinary, even gross, disgustingI don't want to do that sorts
(15:38):
of things can be the kind ofthing that are making an eternal
difference in somebody's life,all the way from changing a
kid's diapers to taking out thetrash every day at your house,
right, and then there's manymore glorious things, but the
doctrine of vocation just showsus the benefit of being caught
up into God's grand plan, wherehe reaches down through me, uses
my life to bless other people.
(15:59):
It's just incredible, right,and it's also a way of telling
the story, of gaining a hearing.
You know, for people in thatmarketplace, I think, thinking
about their calling and talkingusing that language.
It hits, it connects withpeople.
So that's kind of the tool.
In a nutshell, you went bottommiddle.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Is there a higher?
Did I miss?
Speaker 3 (16:19):
Yeah, so the higher part is the prayerful part over
the top of those conversations.
So as you're preparing to talk,you know there's a guided way
to pray.
It's very simple but there's aguide.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
Hey, this is excellent, Chad.
I took copious notes and Ican't wait to see the graphic.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
It's been anybody I've presented it to.
They find it so helpful.
They're just it's releasingright.
It isn't.
It's not not to say that DJames Kennedy's evangelism
explosion was wrong or bad.
Ours is a different tool.
It does it differently, butmany people taught in that
paradigm.
You know they're taught a veryspecific script.
Ours doesn't give you a script.
(16:58):
It liberates you into being afriend, right and using the
God-given skills of empathy,listening, waiting for the Holy
Spirit to fill your mouth withthe right words and then let him
work right.
The pressure isn't on you toget a sinner's prayer, as it
were, or to have somebody signup for adult baptism in the next
(17:19):
week's church service orenrolled in pastor's new member
class.
Hopefully, you know those willhappen along the way and it may
be through you.
It may not be, but we're hopingthat, by using the skills God's
given us, the Holy Spirit willbe at work deeply in the
background as we pray for him tobe at work in the hearts and
(17:41):
minds of these people that we'retrying to reach.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
I have to follow up.
So good, I have to follow up onvocation.
You think it hasn't got theairtime or we're increasing in
airtime.
I mean it was a huge revolutionin the Reformation in elevating
the priesthood of all believersin all of our respective
vocations.
I think that's one of thethings that Luther is probably
most known for in the widerchurch.
(18:05):
It's getting the scripturesinto the every man's hand so
that they can see God is at workout in the world and all the
places.
He's called me and sent me tobe his, to be his hands and feet
, his mouthpiece, and so it's soamazing.
So what?
What do we often miss?
Just today, in twenty twentyfive, on the topic of vocation,
you said we get caught up intoGod's grand plan.
(18:25):
Is that kind of?
Maybe our understanding of whatGod has called us to do is too
small, it's too narrow, it's notincorporated into how God does
his thing out in the world.
Say more there.
Chad, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
I think that's exactly one of the issues that's
challenging about it.
We are are always kind of inthe world, but not of the world
people.
But one of the ways that thechurch is influenced by the
world is the language ofvocation hasn't necessarily been
hijacked by the world, but it'sgone through a really serious
(19:03):
reduction in terms of what itmeans.
Vocation has really become, inour time, synonymous with job,
and, as I would teach this atConcordia University when I used
to be on the faculty there, Iwould always say to my students
every job is a vocation, but notevery vocation is a job, right?
We've got this whole set ofestates.
(19:27):
Luther called them I've triedto use the word realms.
There's really nothing kind ofin our time, spheres, if you
want to grab something from theReformed.
There's nothing really thatkind of applies in a direct way.
It's kind of good updatedlanguage for our time.
You just got to work through itand get used to the way Luther
talks, the way Lutherans talkabout it.
(19:47):
But I think, talking about thefamily right, and all the
various roles and relationshipsthey are their roles that come
with responsibilities, same inas a neighbor, right, and that's
just such a vague and generalcategory, and so I often like to
talk about our neighbor as theperson that God has equipped me
(20:09):
to serve in this moment, who hasa need.
Right, and that limits itsignificantly.
Like I don't have to take careof everybody, right, I've got
certain abilities to take careof certain kinds of people and
God brings them into my life,you know, making the possibility
of my service available to them.
You know, we've got theworkplace, and then we've got
(20:29):
civil society, the state.
You know a number of ways oftalking about that.
And then we've got civilsociety, the state.
You know a number of ways oftalking about that.
And then we've got the church.
Depends on which vocationscholar you read?
Sometimes it's four realms.
Sometimes these are kind ofsmashed together.
Often the household and work gotogether just because of the
Greek origin for the name ofhousehold and economy.
But we do our work, we work forour livelihood to support a
(20:55):
household.
So that makes sense.
But there are all these rolesand it's just so fascinating and
that's the grand plan that I'mtalking about.
You know, my calling isn't justthis job, it's not just this
career, it's these roles andresponsibilities, and he's
reaching down through me to meetthe needs of my neighbor
through my gift, skills, talentsand abilities on a regular
(21:17):
basis and look at how much I'mbeing cared for by all of these
people who may or may not knowJesus, but he's reaching down
through them in their stationsas Lutheran state or vocations
to care for me and other peoplein my life.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
I'm just going to be straight up, honest.
Thank you for that overview.
Sometimes in ministry, as apastor, the word and the way we
talk about vocation has beenboring.
Okay, it's just not captured myimagination.
You use the synonym callinglike that.
That kind of does something tothe heart and to the head.
(21:54):
It's like God is, God iscalling me out, he is there.
You know, God is already atwork in the world, wherever I
live, work and play, and he'sinviting me to listen to him and
respond to him and then respondin turn to other people.
So maybe for those of you whoare like me, who have looked at
vocation and it's so narrow wegot these categories you know
that God calling that, Godcalling me into these respective
(22:16):
spheres to be his mouthpiece,his hands and feet to respond to
the needs.
I love that to respond to theneeds of others.
Maybe that captures the heart alittle bit more.
Any, any follow up to that chat.
I'm not trying to throwvocation under the bus, but I'm
just saying, yeah, it'ssometimes hard, honestly, to
preach on if I don't have wordslike calling, because it just
gets so kind of heady ratherthan experiential, I guess Can
(22:38):
you follow up there.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
I absolutely feel you , and that is one of the
challenges of talking about someof these older teachings, right
, like, how do you relate tothose to our age?
Right, we find them so valuableas a rich part of our heritage.
But there's there's nothingwrong with using calling.
In fact, that's what the wordvocation means.
It comes from the Latin vocare,which means to call, you know.
(23:03):
The question then is who'scalling?
Right, and there are some otherplaces, like you can go to the
story of the prophet Samuel whenhe was young.
Right, you know I hear thisvoice.
And finally, he's guided to.
I'm pretty sure this is theright story, you know.
Guided to say you know yourservant is listening, you know
(23:27):
what do you want?
And then the other side of whatyou were talking about, all
these roles, I think, to go backto that comment I made about
the data we have, aboutdemographics and how the younger
generations are wantingsomething meaningful, something
fulfilling from life, if thereis any story that can give
meaning to a person's life, itis the story of being caught up
in God's, the grandeur of God'screation and the way that he
(23:51):
reaches down from heaven anduses us for his purposes.
I don't have to make it up, Idon't have to find my way.
My identity is not a task, it'sa gift, and that is a glorious
and liberating thing.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Well, that's the gospel.
It's God's grand love story forme, for the world, for my
neighbor, so much so that hesent his son to show me the
height and depth and breadth ofhis love, shown through a cross
and an empty tomb and the hopethat we have the calling of God.
I mean, that's why the earlychurch blew up like it did, is
because people, the gospel, hadbeen unleashed through the
(24:29):
Spirit's power to every man,woman, boy and girl to live this
entirely, entirely new way.
And maybe let's go down thispath.
I think it's so different it'shard for us and for me, even as
a communicator of the gospel, tocapture and only the Holy
Spirit can do that.
(24:49):
But for the everyday, you knowthey're sitting in our pews or
chairs, they're listening to theword consistently, but to help
them experience what it was liketo put themselves in these
shoes, I'm seeing so much powerright now in storytelling
connected to the biblicalnarrative and we just walked
through a trauma series, lookingat Peter, job, elijah and the
(25:10):
woman at the well in John,chapter four, and like doing a
deep dive, using even ourimagination.
Luther loved that.
He gave this invitation, usingour imagination, to experience
what it was like to be there onthe margins whatever.
So I think there's a struggle,though, for us to in the West,
with all of our, with all of it,all of the wealth, all of the
(25:32):
now, to put ourselves in theshoes of what it was like for
the first, second, third centuryfollower of Jesus, who was
experiencing suffering and loss.
Their life expectancy was farless Like they were just sold
out.
They'd encountered Jesus.
They were not afraid of death,they weren't afraid of Rome,
they weren't afraid of any otherauthorities, but they were
(25:53):
still.
They weren't jerks.
There was a winsomeness totheir call out into the world.
How do you help kind of the2025 believer place themselves,
I think, in the sense of HolySpirit, dependence and faith,
with a sense of urgency, but not, I mean, always be looked at
well by outsiders, and they weregenerally.
I mean always be looked at wellby outsiders, and they they
were generally.
(26:14):
I mean they were a weird groupof people.
To be sure, they're eating thebody and blood of Jesus.
You know there's all these kindsof weird insider, but they were
still the brand of the earlychurch and we know this because
it spread so winsomely right Toall four corners of the world.
It was just a different senseand I think the Holy spirit
could be doing something on that.
It was just a different senseand I think the Holy Spirit
(26:34):
could be doing something on that.
I don't think I know God isdoing something right now to
kind of capture that sense ofawe and wonder of what it was
like to live on the edge more inthe center.
Am I?
Am I painting an OK pictureLike how do we capture that
living on the margins ratherthan in the center?
Yeah, a little bit more today.
Speaker 3 (26:51):
Chad yeah, I, I heard a great sermon yesterday by my
pastor, just tremendous.
Um, I've heard a lot ofcomplaints.
So this was yesterday, was lifeSunday?
Um, in the in the churchcalendar, at least the one that
that we follow and I've heard alot of complaints over the years
of you know why?
Why doesn't your past?
Why don't pastors these dayssay you know anything negative
(27:13):
about you know what's going onin the culture?
Why don't they call out thingslike abortion or LGBTQ or
euthanasia, addictions andthings like that?
I hate that question because ifthe church has any really
(27:34):
significant reputation right now, it's being known for what
we're against.
That's right, and we get firedup by rallying speeches like
(27:55):
that that bind right, that holdcommunity together.
Works is when we all cometogether to talk about why we're
here and who we are, and partof that why we're here and who
we are is how we're set apartand different, but often better,
than people who are outside ofus.
Instead, my pastor went down atotally different route.
He didn't not name those things, but he went down the route of
saying he did not name thosethings, but he went down the
route of saying when we'retalking about life.
Here is what we're for.
(28:16):
When God is talking about life,here's what he is for.
And he went on to talk aboutthe healing ministry that we've
got going on in our congregationfor people who are addicts
right In a variety of ways.
(28:37):
There are three or four AAgroups that meet in our
congregation and then there'sgroups for people who are
connected to and have had todeal with the trauma and the
challenge of people who areaddicted right and how to care
for them.
Well, after you know, theystart to go through a different
way of life.
Right, it's a huge adjustmentfor not just the person but
everybody around them.
And he's talking about thesocial ministries that you know
where we're caring for, you know, not just people who had to
make the choice that we think isthe right one.
(28:58):
Right, which is don't have anabortion, carry that child.
But there's a whole lot to doafter that child has been born
and there are often a lot ofneeds to be met and often those
moms are alone in thosesituations.
They're brave and courageous inways many of us can never
understand, but there are waysthat we can support them.
So I don't know that.
You know, going back to theearly church that they did
(29:20):
anything radically differentthan what's possible for us.
I think one of the things ishaving a leader, like my pastor
yesterday, narrate for us whatit is we can do and what it is
we are doing, how we'recontributing to the good of the
world and lifting it up and howthat's just such a glorious
witness to these people who arecoming into our building, or
(29:41):
that we're showing up to theirplace, or that they're at least
receiving something from us toimprove their life and help them
to flourish that they wouldexperience that as a gospel
witness.
That's gentle, it's winsome,it's upbuilding.
It's not always hey, you canhave this if you come to our
church, or hey, you can havethis if you'll listen to a spiel
(30:04):
about Jesus.
It's building a relationshipfirst.
It's offering a space, offeringan opportunity and expecting
the Holy Spirit to be working inthe midst of that relationship,
however it might be happening.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Hey, yeah, couldn't agree more.
What is it about?
Anger and fear?
These are the two primarynegative emotions.
I would say pride could be athird, but anger and fear just
sell in the marketplace today.
I mean clickbait, this, thispodcast.
Sometimes we'll talk aboutthings that are a little bit
(30:38):
more, I guess, hard to talkabout in the church, kind of how
we're connecting to one another.
Right, and it's, it's wild.
Those podcasts get three, four,10, x.
You know the views and listens.
But I mean we were trying tohave the conversation in a
helpful, helpful way.
But sometimes there's somecontroversial topics that we
talk about.
(30:58):
And anger you can gather a crowdof people who get, and even we
use the term.
I don't think this is a shoutout to Jeff Gibbs and his work
on anger.
I don't think there is such athing as righteous anger.
I think, you know, judgmentbelongs to the, to the Lord, and
(31:20):
he's going to sort it all out.
And so I love that posture of,rather than working for um
toward what we're against,rather than working what we're
for, we, we must go in thatdirection.
I'm just, I guess, expressing asa local parish pastor, that is
(31:40):
not the quickest way to growyour church.
You know there are some churchesright here in the Valley who
went on one side or the other inthe political season that we
just walked through and madethese hard line.
You know we're vote the Bible,all this kind of stuff, and we
chose some may say we kind ofdid that.
We talked about some of theissues, some of the concerns,
but we did so in a winsome way.
But there were some churchesthat grew exponentially and
(32:01):
people just flocked to thosechurches because it was very
clear it was a rally, for I'mjust going to say it, it was a
rallying group for Trump, forPresident Trump, and God bless
him in his work and now thatwhat he's doing, and we're going
to respect all of our leaders,et cetera.
But the narrative can easilyChristians can easily get pulled
into that narrative of angerand really looking and, while
(32:24):
I'm going down the politicalsphere, really looking for one
man or one party to do what onlyGod can do.
No disrespect to PresidentTrump he cannot take care of my
greatest need, which isdefeating sin, death and the
devil for me and giving me alife of meaning and purpose.
Anything more to say, though,to pastors who may be moving
down that line of speaking intofear of our culture, rather than
(32:46):
arms wide open on what we'refor Chad.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
Yeah, I would say you know anybody who's experiencing
a lot of anger.
Right, you need more Jesus.
You need to take that to theLord.
Right, bonhoeffer would arguethat Jesus is the ultimate
author of the Psalms.
Right, and there are so manyoutlets there of kind of taking
your anger, your frustration,your exhaustion, your depression
, your resentment to the Lordand laying it at his feet and
(33:13):
unburdening yourself.
I don't know how many peoplehave brought up some of the
language of the black church inrecent years and through some of
their really sort ofJesus-minded, jesus-centered
leaders like MLK and John Lewisand some of the others, but I
think it was John Lewis thattalked about that.
Hatred is a burden to carryaround and in Christ we are
(33:34):
invited to unburden ourselvesfrom carrying around hatred.
And I would think, similarly,anger, resentment can pull
people together.
Right, when you didn't get yourway and you feel like
everything's being taken awayfrom you, that can be a rallying
cry that draws people together.
But I also think you're totallyright all those people together
(33:56):
.
But I also think you're totallyright, what we've lost in
American culture since the late80s is a sense of who we are and
what we're for collectively,and this affects the church.
What's happening in the churchis microcosmic of what's
happening in American culture,and what happened at the end of
the 80s was the Cold War came toan end and for the first time
in many, many generations wedidn't have anybody particularly
(34:21):
to be against, or any movementright, any sort of really big
ideal that ours was meant tostand up against, and so there's
been a vacuum and we've lurchedhere and there and an identity
talk really kind of rose up inthis time and the
over-politicization of justabout everything has happened
(34:43):
during that time, and so we cansee here's the social outcome of
having nothing that kind ofholds us all together as a
people, right, and then we seeit trickling over into the
church, right, the right and theleft in the church, you know,
and the zero-sum games you'vegot to be 100% for what I'm for,
(35:03):
or you're a terrible bad personwho's a sinner and going to
hell, or whatever the argumentmight be.
But these sort of outcomes andthe way they're articulated,
argued for, they're not the wayof Jesus, right?
He never let an issue prevent arelationship, and we're willing
to cut people off right andcompletely dissociate if we
(35:24):
experience disagreement fromthem, and we love to use that
language us versus them.
But the gospel is the mostinclusive kind of language that
there is.
And if we claim to be people ofthe gospel, right, we're people
for whom the blood of Christwas shed, and it was shed for
everyone.
(35:44):
Now, not everyone accepts that,and that's very clear.
But this is a message that Godhas given to us that we're meant
to steward and proclaim toanyone who can hear.
Right, we're all similarly madein the image of God, so there's
something indelible about everyhuman that when we cut them off,
(36:05):
we're cutting off something youknow divinely put together in
the hidden places of theirmother's womb.
Right, the fingerprints of Godare there and we're saying no,
and oftentimes not just no, butthey're less than human because
of what they think, believe, whothey follow, whatever.
And that's happening in Americaat large, but it happens in the
(36:29):
church as well, right, but ithappens in the church as well,
right, because I think the waythat we've lost our way as a
society, right, we're in theworld, but not of the world of
people.
But the church is inevitablyalways affected by what's going
on culturally around them.
And to the extent that we canrecognize that and become aware,
repent and God, help us right,help us move in a way that's
(36:55):
healthier for us to become thepeople that you want us to be,
so that we can be the witnessthat you've called us to be.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more.
I think you don't have to speakto this specifically, but I
will.
In the Lutheran Church MissouriSynod, a confessional, historic
church body, with all of thechanges in culture, it feels
like there is a narrowing moveright now Could be around
(37:23):
worship or looking and sayingthe right things, to kind of
distinguish ourselves as theright type of Lutheran.
And I don't know that that moveis winsome.
And one of the reasons I knowthis is true is I'm trying and
we're seeing some inroads heretrying to build bridges of love
and care and trust toward peoplein different contexts and
(37:45):
different roles so that we canhave compassion for one another,
to not shut off the image ofGod, the gifts, the unique gifts
that come for people in alldifferent vocations, all
different callings in our church.
But there is a spirit ofsilence and tribalism that I'm
praying that spirit would justbe rooted out so that the gospel
, the gospel truths from thescripture, from the confessions,
(38:08):
would have a wide, wide reachright now.
I think this is a great day tobe a Lutheran, because what
we're basically talking aboutfor those of you who are not
aware, you're like it's themiddle way of it's
attention-filled law, gospel,saint and sinner now, and not
yet realities, the right andleft-hand kingdom.
It's the middle way of Jesus.
(38:29):
Jesus, he welcomes everyone.
And yet if you come to Jesuslike thinking well, I've kind of
figured it all out, like here'sthe way it's got to be, the
pharisaical spirit.
I think we have a tendency inthe LCMS right now toward that
pharisaical spirit.
(38:49):
Or on the other side, I come tohim broken, hurting, I've got
very few things to offer theKing of Kings and Lord of Lords.
And yet by his spirit's power,as I come to him with humility,
he says I'll take that, I'lltake that story, even the broken
parts of your story, and I'mgoing to connect that story to
my grand story.
And off we go in this grandadventure.
Like I want that grandadventure spirit, the God's
higher calling, to be present inthe Lutheran Church Missouri
(39:12):
Synod with leaders at everylevel.
So I like let's go down thispath.
I like your drumming analogy.
We need to learn to play orlive softer rather than harder.
You could also talk about theelephant and the rider metaphor.
That's super helpful.
So you could also tie this allinto our struggles with church
being in fight mode, not just atthe local level, but even in
(39:33):
different pockets of our synod.
I think this will be very, veryhelpful.
Chad Go ahead.
Speaker 3 (39:37):
Yeah, you know, to go back to the idea of when we
don't know as a collective whatwe're for and therefore
everything kind of feels chaotic.
I think what we're experiencingin American society, in our
church but in a variety of otherchurches I try to read widely
(39:58):
and pay attention we're notunique.
What's happening, but as humanbeings, as collectives of human
beings, sociologically, we'retrying to find something that we
can control.
Can control, and I don'tbelieve anybody that I may
(40:19):
disagree with is somehownefarious just because we
disagree.
I think probably I've got anidea of how things should go.
They've got an idea of howthings should go and they're
trying to make their best darnefforts to get us in that
direction, right To do somethingthat they believe is faithful
to Jesus.
And to the extent that we'renot aligned in that, I think we
should probably try to talkabout it and understand one
(40:41):
another.
But at the same time I thinkit's more important to start out
with a posture of when Idisagree with somebody, that
doesn't make them my enemy,right From wherever I'm coming
from, whether we're talkingabout the deepest convictions we
have theologically or thedeepest convictions we've got
(41:03):
morally or politically as weengage with people.
That lends to be able to seethem as Jesus sees them.
His blood was shed.
Someone made knit together thedeepest fabric of their being by
the hands of God himself.
That changes everything aboutour posture to any other Right.
(41:29):
That includes people that wefeel like you know they're on
our side, we're in totalagreement, we get along super
well, and people that that youknow it's a little bit rough to,
to try to make some inroads inwith and get along with.
Um, I've, I've appreciated theprivilege to, to be able to talk
to just about anybody like that, and and God has used me in
(41:52):
that way and I I really want tokeep doing it, so, um and yeah,
it's kind of, it's kind of funny, Um, and it's not funny.
Speaker 2 (42:03):
I guess it's Holy spirit funny in that every time
I get together with someone thatI know we could talk about some
issues that that are we havedifferent opinions on, et cetera
, every time I get with themface to face, the Holy Spirit
shows up and shows off and weend up leaving, uh, liking each
(42:24):
other, not just tolerating,every time.
Speaker 3 (42:27):
Yeah, eat a meal together, drink a beer together.
I mean, look at what Jesus didover and over and over again
right Table fellowship in in thebasic way, right.
Not capital T, capital F tablefellowship, but just basic have
a meal together, right.
And it just does something tous.
It's a primal thing.
All of us human beings have gotto eat.
(42:49):
I used to joke with my students.
I said do you remember when youwent out on your first date and
you had to let somebody watchyou eat?
And we don't think about thatanymore, but it was a vulnerable
thing in that moment.
And to eat together just takesus to the basic levels of who we
are as human beings and it justopens a space for conversation,
(43:11):
for fellowship and for theability to relate to one another
.
To relate to one another.
That's different than doing itover the medium of the interwebs
or, you know, even in the oldway of doing things right,
publishing journal articles anddisagreeing with one another
(43:34):
over a period of months andmonths, or the way Luther used
to do it, writing letters andkind of going on a tear and all
the language that he would use.
That just absolutely, you know,we would all say it's totally
politically incorrect andinappropriate.
These days, you know, we kindof look at it and laugh.
It's humorous to read how hewould get along with his fellows
and his peers and people whomhe liked a lot and cared for a
(43:55):
lot.
I think that's the reason hewrote the way that he did very
much.
But yeah, our approach, ourposture, these things aren't
difficult, but it does take somevulnerability.
Speaker 2 (44:08):
Definitely, I think that's the word Humility,
vulnerability, authenticity.
I'm showing up as one humanwith certain ideas.
I got gifts, I got gaps and Ineed the gifts that God has
given to you and I want to workfrom a place I liked, how you
and I first met because thefirst thing that happened was,
(44:29):
you know, we sat and drank abeer, but you just pummeled me
with question after questionafter question and I'm like, I
feel like I'm being selfishbecause I'm not asking him
anything about himself.
Speaker 3 (44:38):
I feel like I'm being selfish because I'm not asking
him anything about himself.
So I mean it's that basic right.
We humans know how to do this.
That's why, you know, I go backto the God-given gifts of
empathy.
Right, we know how to do thisthing called sharing Jesus with
other people.
We know how to have friendships.
We know how to haveconversations.
We know how to haverelationships.
We act like it's an impossiblechallenge these days because you
(45:03):
never know what what's going tohappen.
Is the relationship going to bebroken?
Is somebody going to yell atyou or you're going to have to
disagree and conflict avoidanceis pretty normal for us humans.
But asking questions that thatchanges the whole tenor of
things.
Right.
Showing curiosity, beingvulnerable right.
If you listen to somebody forlong enough, the likelihood that
(45:25):
they're going to want toreciprocate and listen to you
and where you're coming from.
I love that from Daryl Davis,right, he does a lot of work.
He's a black man, he does a lotof work with white supremacists
and the Ku Klux Klan and hejust asked them how can you hate
me without even knowing me?
And for so many of thoseconversations they've turned
into lifelong friendships.
Some people have left the whitesupremacy cults and the Ku Klux
(45:48):
Klan and he's just trying to bea human being to other humans.
You know he's trying to askthem can you see my humanity?
But by doing so he's showingthem he sees their humanity in
full and it just ends upchanging things.
Speaker 2 (46:03):
It's so so great I have so many other questions,
chad that we're going to get toto dig into the book.
I don't know, I didn't evenhardly talk about any of the
things I thought I was going totalk about, but this was so much
fun.
We're going to do part two heresoon.
That will be released, the nextpodcast here with lead time
that comes out.
What final, final question, asyou look at the book, as you
(46:24):
look at the book, was there likecause I write and say more and
then I forget what I wrote orsaid?
You know cause you're moving onto the next thing that you're
curious about, et cetera.
But if there was like onesticky thing that you're like,
this changed me when, when I hadthat aha moment with the Holy
spirit connected to the personand work of Jesus as I wrote
this book.
This is, this is the through,this is the thread that I just
(46:46):
want to hold on to and what mymy readers to hold on to as well
, with how the light shinesthrough.
What would that be, chad?
Speaker 3 (46:53):
Yeah, the one thing that that just strikes me as as
um probably most pressinglyimportant for people to pay
attention to is that thirdchapter, how not to let issues
prevent relationships.
And it seems to have been oneof the things that just kind of
hit a nerve in my presentationswhen I've talked about this.
(47:13):
But for me it goes back to justa moment that God used that I
remember that kind of broughtabout the name of that chapter
in a way.
I was sitting with an oldfriend of mine.
Paul Lindeman used to be theNorthwest District President.
We had the chance to visit withhim on occasion when I was
teaching at Concordia Portland,because we would always do, you
(47:36):
know, some get togethers withpeople, other faculty members,
even other theological facultyfolks, and then you know
district staff and pastors fromaround the area.
So Paul's coming in one time andhe's just, I think, very
offhand, telling us about aBible study that he's, you know,
preparing for some group ofpeople that he's about to spend
time with, and he's talkingabout John, chapter four, the
(47:59):
story of the woman at the well,and he just offhand said Jesus
never let an issue prevent arelationship and if anybody,
she's one of the primary peoplein the scriptures.
That has a lot of issues, right,and he calls them out in his
very gentle sort of way thatonly Jesus can.
But that stuck with me like theHoly spirit just took that and,
and you know, put it inside myhead in a way that I couldn't
(48:23):
forget.
So I definitely give a littlecredit to him and there for that
kind of language.
But.
But I wanted to talk about thehow right and then point people
to Jesus in terms of he, he doesthis with us right.
Of all people who have issues,it's me and you but he doesn't
let any of our issues prevent arelationship and in a sense,
(48:44):
we're called to go and dolikewise Because he has forgiven
us and empowered us to livelike him.
We're therefore empowered toset aside issues with other
people and not let them preventa relationship.
Speaker 2 (48:59):
That's love it, love it.
I just preached, actually, onthe nameless woman at the well
yesterday and in our traumaseries and we, everybody one of
the things that stuck with meeverybody has a story and Jesus
hints at her story.
We don't know even all thedetails of the five husbands.
You know, was there shame,potentially, but I think there
(49:22):
was probably more.
She's a woman of pity, beendivorced Women couldn't seek
divorce in that culture.
That's likely a part of it.
And she probably has a widow,maybe one or two or three times,
three times over.
And now the man she's livingwith right now we have this like
oh, it's sexual, it'simmorality and it may, maybe, I
guess, but it could be that thatshe's just with a man who's
(49:47):
providing because all the men inher family have died or left.
There's a man that's kindenough to provide her protection
in his household.
So there's always other anglesto the stories and when Jesus
looks at us, I don't think helooks at us with like contempt
(50:08):
or anger.
It's over the top.
It's over the top love.
The look at Peter after hisdenial right Luke brings out,
after he's denied Jesus, knowinghim three times, a very serious
thing to do.
Jesus looks at him with loveand I think to bring it home
with a Lutheran lens right, it'snot about you knowing me, it's
I know you, I know you and I'mdoing this, I'm doing this for
(50:30):
you.
So this has been so fantastic.
If you haven't got the book yet,how the Light Shines Through
Resilient Witness in Dark Times,it's fantastic.
I actually we're just finishing.
I think you have 10 chaptershere or so.
The last 10 weeks.
The 6 am study that I've beendoing with a number of it just
turns into male leaders.
(50:50):
Dudes get up, women are welcome, but a number of our vicars,
our learners, our leaders gettogether every Sunday at 6 am
and this is for the last threemonths or so has been our book
of choice and it's blessed them,it's blessed us immensely, chad
.
So thank you, thank you, thankyou.
Speaker 3 (51:05):
I'm so thankful for that.
Yeah, I think I think the bestgift that you can give to an
author you know beyond hey,write me a recommendation if you
found it helpful is just totell me that you found it
helpful.
Right, that's all I really wantto do in giving this away is
(51:26):
God.
I pray this is helpful to thechurch and hearing from people
like you that you're finding itto be that that's just such a
great gift.
It's so humbling that Godreviews me that way.
Speaker 2 (51:30):
Praise God.
If people want to connect withyou, how can they do so?
Chad.
Speaker 3 (51:34):
Yeah, I mean my Facebook is pretty much open.
I don't post a lot on there butoccasionally, so you can find
me out there.
But otherwise it'd bechadlakies at l-h-m dot o-r-g.
Speaker 2 (51:47):
And that's chadl-a-k-i-e-s.
Lakies, You're a gift man andexcited for going a little
deeper into a number.
You have so many, so manyrelevant talking points that
we're going to be hitting on inour follow-up to this
conversation.
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
This is lead time, Likesubscribe, comment wherever it
is, Wherever it is that you—soI've got to pause as I'm closing
(52:07):
here For other people to hearthese helpful conversations
centered in the person and workof Jesus in the Lutheran Church,
Missouri Synod and hopefullyoutside.
When you subscribe and orcomment, that really helps get
the word out to more folks.
So, thank you, Thank you.
Thank you, Chad.
As always, man, you're a friendand thank you for your
generosity of time.
Speaker 3 (52:28):
Tim, thanks for having me, for the great
conversation, the greatquestions, as always.
Speaker 1 (52:49):
I look forward to next time.
All right, bud, god bless, seeyou Peace.
You, god bless, see you Peace.
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