June 13, 2025 • 53 mins
Tim Ahlman welcomes Rev. Dr. Michael Eckelkamp, who shares transformative leadership insights from his experience as Senior Executive Director at Christ Lincoln Church and Schools and mentor to countless leaders.
• Two early mentors shaped Michael's approach to leadership: his third-grade teacher who helped him learn to read, and a man named Herbie who invited him to weekly dinners
• Understanding leadership and self-deception requires recognizing when we're "in the box" toward others, justifying our behavior by blaming them
• Trust operates like deposits in a bank account—consistent small investments create a reserve that allows relationships to weather occasional withdrawals
• Every congregation asks two questions about a new leader: "Will he love me?" and "Will he let me love him?"
• Young leaders need mentorship to develop character at the same rate as content knowledge
• Creating healthy rhythms (Michael swims at 4 am daily) provides capacity to handle leadership challenges
• High invitation coupled with high challenge creates environments where people grow spiritually and emotionally
• Curiosity (from Latin "cur" meaning heart) keeps us humble and open to what God is doing
• Leadership requires incremental 1% improvements in physical, emotional, spiritual and familial dimensions
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is Lead Time.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Welcome to Lead Time, tim Allman here.
Jack Kalberg has the day offand I am so excited for our
conversation today.
Jesus Joy is going to bepresent as I get to sit down and
learn with and honor a man wholargely shaped my early
leadership life.
I'll tell you what, if itweren't for this man, I don't
(00:24):
know.
I don't know what would havehappened on so many levels.
This is the Reverend Dr MichaelAL Echolkamp.
He is currently serving as aSenior Executive Director at
Christ Lincoln Church andSchools.
This vibrant community has aregular attendance of
approximately 2,500 Jesusfollowers who are sent out on
(00:45):
mission connected to their threecampuses.
Michael graduated from ConcordiaUniversity, portland, in 1985,
majoring in biblical languages,behavioral sciences.
That explains a lot.
He attended and graduated fromConcordia Seminary in 1990 there
in St Louis with a Master ofDivinity, 90 there in St Louis
with a Master of Divinity, andthen he got his Master of Sacred
(01:07):
Theology, his STM, in 1991.
He completed his doctorate atWestminster Theological Seminary
in 2002.
You were just in school forquite a while there, michael.
He's currently also a graduateof the PLI, the Pastoral
Leadership Institute, andcurrently mentoring 10 pastors.
He regularly speaks todistricts, circuits and
congregations on developingintentional outreach into their
local communities.
His great joy is to mentor,encourage.
(01:30):
Through high invitation andhigh challenge he mentors and
coaches leaders to serve theircommunities.
They release all of God'speople out in love in mission to
make Jesus known using theirrespective gifts.
And the last note about Michaelhe currently is an avid
pickleball fan and also teachespickleball at a local community
college.
Michael Lechokamp, how are youdoing, buddy?
Speaker 3 (01:51):
I am doing spectacular.
What a joy it is just to get toreconnect with you.
I tell you, when I think of you, my heart smiles.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Well, mine is.
I'm smiling wider, michael, andhere's why I got to tell you
the story.
This man reached out Now.
I thought I thought you wereold at the time.
Looking back, you're probablymy age right right now.
Right.
And Michael says, hey, come onover to.
He was at St John's in Denverat the time.
I'm probably 27, 28, one or twoyears out of the seminary at
(02:23):
Bethlehem, lutheran and Lakewood.
And he says, hey, I'm bringinga number of younger leaders
together.
We're going to read some bookstogether and pray and encourage
one another, and you know we'lldo it about every other month or
so.
Tim, you want to come and be apart of that, and it was one of
my best next to marrying my wife.
It was one of my favorite top10 yeses that I ever said,
because those three or fouryears being in a consistent
(02:47):
mentoring relationship with youhaving all of the, it really was
some family systemsconversation.
What does it look like to leadwith integrity and courage and
humility?
And you let us behind thecurtain of what it looked like
to lead in your chair at StJohn's the level of access we
had to all of the wisdom thatJesus had given you that you
(03:09):
just poured out so abundantlyupon us.
You know, looking back, andthere are many other things you
could have been doing, butmentoring young leaders casting
vision for young leaders has amultiplying impact that goes way
beyond just your local context,michael, and I'm better, and
multiple people that I've got tomentor and coach pass it on to
(03:30):
are better because of you.
So thank you for being a riverrather than a reservoir,
reverend Dr Michael Echocamp.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
Well, my cup is full.
Thanks for talking today.
Appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Yeah.
So what gave you the drive topour into Young Leaders?
Tell that story.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Yeah.
So there's two stories reallyaround it, and it goes back to
my third grade teacher as funnyas this sounds and, of course,
an elementary school teacher.
Her name is Mrs Green.
There you go, and Mrs Greenrecognized that I was way behind
in reading and what she did isshe came alongside me and she
(04:06):
says you know, michael, you cando better and I'm going to help
you get there.
I will never forget that phrasehey, michael, you can do better
and I'm going to help you getthere.
So she stayed after school withme and gave me the personal time
, the relational time, coupledwith teaching me to read and
even more, teaching me the loveof reading.
(04:27):
That's what she did.
So by the time I got to sixthgrade, I'd read every Nancy Drew
, hardy Boyd book in the libraryGeorge Washington, abraham
Lincoln it ignited me on a lovein history.
I've read an autobiography onevery president and just wow,
she taught me the love oflearning, but she also taught me
(04:48):
it was possible.
She saw something that Icouldn't see and she chose to
speak to my journey.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Wow, can you hear the bell in the background?
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Yeah, it rings every time I say something powerful.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Let's go, but that's so true how we need those.
Mrs Greens, Shout out to everyelementary teacher you may think
that you're not doing I mean nocasting vision for six, seven,
eight, nine, all the way upthrough high school and college.
It's never too late to startlearning, and that's really.
It's not about what you learn,it's about developing, because
(05:22):
there's always more to learn.
But it's about developing thehabit of learning, the habit of
curiosity being called up andout.
I've wrestled this a lot,Michael.
There's no room in well, thereshouldn't be, but Satan comes at
us with this.
There's no room for pride inthis endeavor called learning,
because there's always someonewho's up and out, Because
there's always someone who's upand out.
(05:43):
Obviously, God is above, butit's the spirit of adventure,
the call of adventure, thatleads us to inevitable curiosity
.
And what that does in my heartis it locates people and says
you're fascinating.
Aren't people like the mostfascinating thing ever, Like how
God made us and our uniqueexperiences?
And so every person that I comein contact with, young and old,
(06:06):
this appears to be the postureof Jesus, One I'm fascinated,
I'm curious by, and I want tocall them up, up and out, having
something to learn in areciprocal relationship and
wanting to learn from them.
Talk about reciprocity inleadership and how that moves us
.
I think from seeing thehierarchy, though there's always
hierarchy, but it positions us,no matter what seat we take in
(06:28):
whatever organization.
It positions us with humilityand curiosity, Michael yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
So that word curiosity cur Latin and French.
That means heart, so it's aheart of wonder, it's a heart of
awe.
And so I think, truly, one mostpowerful prayer is you can pray
, especially in the midst ofconflict, is and so I think,
truly, one of the most powerfulprayers you can pray, especially
in the midst of conflict, isGod, I wonder what you're up to.
So you have the power to makeall things work together for
good, even this situation righthere.
(06:54):
And so, god, I wonder why I'min this place right here, right
now.
And that's not just times ofsadness or hardship or conflict,
it's also times of joy andcelebration.
But, god, I wonder what you'regoing to do with this.
I covered for a wedding forsomebody in Colorado Springs and
horrible traffic all the waydown, horrible traffic all the
(07:16):
way back.
I mean, it was a mess.
Caterer is four hours late forthe wedding and I am not pleased
.
This is I'm doing this for afriend, I don't know this couple
I am covering at the lastmoment and I'm like, ah, and one
of the bridesmaids comes overand sits down.
The service happens.
She says you know, you saidsomething about that.
(07:37):
God loves us passionately.
I don't get that, tell me aboutthat.
So over the next half an hourof time I share the gospel with
her.
And the bride comes over andsays hey, things are just
getting started, can we?
And she goes hey, I'm in themiddle of getting saved here.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
This can wait.
I need to be saved by Jesus.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
So I am mad as can be that my schedule has been
conflicted and God's going.
Really, I just sent you to golove on someone that you will
probably never meet again andtell them how to meet you again
in heaven.
Whatever you know, just thatpower of God, I'm going to be
available in this moment forwhoever you put in front of me
(08:19):
and for Jesus.
That was Pilate or a Samaritanwoman, it was a Roman centurion
or it was his dear friend,lazarus it was.
Who was it?
And God says I'm doingsomething here.
I'm on a mission for you andI'm on a mission with you.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Be somebody right over your left shoulder.
Be somebody who makes everybodyfeel like a somebody.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
Yeah, this morning at the gym I'm holding the door
for this woman and she's alittle ways off and she starts
to pick up the pace and I saidit's okay, You're worth the wait
.
And she goes.
And she did a little nervouslaugh.
I don't know her, she doesn'tknow me, I'm old enough not to
be scary.
Right, and I opened the door,said that A few minutes later
(09:06):
she goes.
Why'd you say that?
And I said because you matterto God, you should matter to me
Now.
That didn't lead to get on ourknees and accept Jesus as our
Savior, but it changed her daythat somebody held a door and
somebody reminded them that theywere worth it.
That's the beauty of our God,who works moment by moment.
Movements are moments bymoments by moments, stacked on
top of each other.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
That's it.
You said you had two stories.
Ooh, good job.
What was the other story?
What was your other story?
Speaker 3 (09:32):
I grew up in a home deeply, deeply impacted by
chemical addiction.
I've lost almost all my familymembers to it.
And there was Herbie.
I moved into an apartment inhigh school, worked a graveyard.
I'm just trying to survive.
I'd been a Christian for a fewyears and Herbie says you know,
michael, a young boy living inan apartment is bad.
(09:54):
Bad things happen to boys wholive in apartments by themselves
.
And so he took me, loved me,was Jesus to me, mentored me.
That's the power of mentoring.
So the Mrs Greens, herbies, theworld is desperately longing
for them and every follower ofJesus has the power to do the
(10:15):
very same thing.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Herbie, he didn't have to do that.
He took the time to notice thehurting and vulnerable young
Michael Echocamp, yep, and theworld is changed.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
And you know I'm not.
I wasn't as cool and suave.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
That's a lie.
Yes, you were.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
I was just that nerdy , that nerdy young kid, but
that's you know.
I have tears of joy becausewhen we connect to people and
God, we're doing it, because Godsaid I've got a divine
appointment for you and I'mgoing to care for you and I will
walk with you.
And I may walk with you for oneminute or one year, I don't
know, but God's doing somethingin the midst of it.
(10:56):
Yeah, so good.
Hey, thanks for letting me cryon your podcast.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
It's the best dude Tears of joy, tears of joy.
So healing, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
So Herbie just walked with me and he said you're
coming over for dinner everyWednesday, um, and if you can't
make it I'll come get you, butyou are not walking this journey
alone.
And just that, that word ofencouragement.
He didn't rescue me, hecouldn't fix it, but he could be
present in the midst of it.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Hey, one of my favorite books that I read with
you back in the day this isn'tany of the notes that I sent,
it's just jogging my memory andit's had a ripple impact.
It's a secular book but it isas sacred as you can possibly
imagine is a leadership inself-deception?
Yes, being in the box or out ofthe box toward another person?
(11:49):
What do you love most aboutleadership?
I mean, this is one of my topfive kind of leadership books
that I want to cycle through thelearning it's in story.
It's a powerful metaphor of abusiness leader who gets
transformed, but the applicationinto the life of the Christian
is exponential.
Any thoughts just generallyabout leadership and
self-deception, Michael?
Speaker 3 (12:08):
So whenever we think of the word deception, we have
to think of the evil one.
The evil one is the one whotries to convince us that we
don't have value, we don't haveworth, we don't have a mission.
It really doesn't matter.
Right, where God says you dohave value, you do have worth.
Everything you do matters, okay.
But here's the thing when weget to the end of the Lord's
prayer that was actually addedon around the 11th century not
(12:31):
what Jesus taught, but that lastpart for thine is the kingdom,
the power and the glory, when Ipray that this is what I do, I
go thine is the kingdom, thepower and the glory.
The deception is to think thatthis is my kingdom, my power, my
glory.
When I'm there, I'm like theevil one, caught up in pride.
That says this transactionalrelationship, what's it going to
(12:52):
bring me?
Instead, I've been given by aGod life, and life everlasting.
I've been placed into therescue boat of the greatest
mission in the history of theworld.
I don't need to gain anythingelse.
I have all that I need foreternity.
My job now is to speak intoothers.
Do I do that perfectly?
No.
Do I live in the grace everyday to start again?
(13:13):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
How does that change the way we walk through conflict
?
The book goes into being in thebox or out of the box, and when
we're in the box, toward others, we're lying Like we're in the
box.
Toward others, we're lying likewe're not the problem, like I
don't have any kind of problemand I need other people to be
the problem to justify myexistence.
And so this kind of crazycollusion cycle takes place that
(13:35):
I almost need the other personto be my enemy, anticipating
their inappropriate words, theirinappropriate intentions, and
this justifies my anger, myanxiety.
And then it just goes aroundand around in marriage right,
it's called the crazy cycle.
He doesn't love her, over time,she doesn't respect him, and
around and around it goes.
We collude with one anothertoward our own demise.
(13:58):
Humans are very good at ruiningour lives.
It's like Jesus wants to callus through confession and
absolution, confessing I'm theproblem, I'm the man, I'm the
one that walked right by, didn'thold the door open One of the
stories they tell.
I'm the man who stayed in bedwhen my little son, toddler son,
was crying and I, instead ofgetting up and doing what I
(14:20):
should have done in the moment,I betrayed myself and made
myself into the victim and mywife into the enemy.
Why would we ever want to dothat?
Right?
But this is the key towardunlocking the power of
conflicting well, one, takingresponsibility for what we did
and I've been down this path forquite a while, michael is the
(14:42):
length of things.
The list of things that I couldhave done, sins of omission
that I didn't do is very long.
So there is always room for meto take responsibility for
something I did or failed to do,and then to give the other
person the opportunity torelease me and the struggle to
Jesus, and I, in turn,reciprocate and do the exact
(15:03):
same confession and absolution.
Confession and forgiveness is agame changer.
First one to the cross wins Go.
Anything to say about that,michael, as it relates to the
book and or conflict resolution.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
So here's the right there in that word confession.
It's a Greek word that meanshomologia.
It's saying the same word.
God says you are a selfishcreature.
And I say yes, I am.
And God says I am a selfless.
God Be imitators of me aschildren that he loves.
And so in leadership andself-deception, we begin to
(15:37):
demonstrate the same behaviorthat the other person is doing.
That drives us crazy.
That's the deception point.
So I'm mad that someone doesn'tdeal with conflict well.
So I don't deal with conflictwell with them.
I'm colluding, you know usingthat word collusion.
And so the beautiful thing isvulnerability, the ability to
step into someone's life onesecond later or 15 years later
(16:02):
and say I'm a broken person whodid broken thing that breaks
things.
That's me.
And so you know, when we wereready to make a big decision in
Denver do we take on anothercampus or whatever?
And somebody raised their handand they said can you guarantee
this is going to work?
And I said I want to tell youthere's two things I'm afraid of
One.
(16:22):
I'm afraid this campus is goingto take off and do great things
and I'm going to take thecredit for it.
And the other thing I'm afraidof is it going to fail and
you're going to think less of me.
What I do know is, if thatcampus closes, it's probably
going to turn into a pop shop ora porn place, because it's
right in that neighborhood.
(16:43):
We cannot lose a footprint forthe gospel.
That's what I do know.
You get back to the honesty.
We have a God who loves us andforgives us.
He's not waiting for us toclean up so he can give us a
bath, but he's also inviting us,in the midst of our brokenness,
to be honest, to say the samething You're a sinner, yes, I am
honest.
(17:03):
To say the same thing You're asinner, yes, I am.
You are forgiven yes, I am.
So we're just telling God whatGod has told us You're a sinner,
yes.
You're forgiven, yes.
And that releases us from theneed of perfectionism and
instead to live in the messy,imperfect world we live in under
the perfect grace of an amazingGod.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
It's the best Words of wisdom.
You've been pastor how manyyears now?
30.
Right, that's a minute.
We'll double what I've been,and I kind of measure the rate
of organizational health basedon the quantity and quality of
(17:43):
the difficult conversations thatwe have.
Right, and and I can be cause Ican be overly frank I have in
the, in the dynamic to passivekind of behavioral tread traits.
I'm slightly imbalanced on thedynamic, aggressive side,
shocker this lesson over time tome.
But so in meetings, in meetingsthough, I've found that if I,
(18:06):
as one of the leaders and Iguess in my, you know, a lead
pastor, if I just take the riskand say, not condemnation or
shame, but take the risk and sayhow I'm feeling regarding this
struggle, whatever it may be,the other day I took a risk and
said, in the midst of aconversation that was kind of
spiraling and we were heading ina potentially dysfunctional
(18:29):
direction and blaming or shamingkind of you know, a certain
grouper that never happens inthe church, right, we, kind of
passively, but then you can kindof everybody knows who we're
talking about or what we'retalking about, or if that group
only did this and I'm like I ambecoming I attest to this.
I'm becoming mildly frustratedwith the direction of this
conversation right now andeverybody kind of and okay, and
(18:50):
we paused.
It kept going because we'reChrist Greenfield, we're a very
passionate group of people.
It kept going for a coupleother minutes and then I was
kind of like, okay, we're gonnastop.
So in small groups or meetings Ijust step up to that line to
let people know how I'memotionally feeling and it kind
of centers the group back toequilibrium.
(19:12):
Say more about the necessity ofexpressing as a leader maybe a
first chair, second chair,leader, whatever group of people
they're kind of leading takingthat emotional risk to say how,
wherever it could potentially bedysfunctional, is making you we
don't talk as Lutherans aboutour feelings too much, how it's
connecting with us emotionallyand how that provides
(19:33):
equilibrium to the team.
Say more there.
Echo Camp.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
First of all, we are fearfully and wonderfully made,
and we have a God who is deeplypassionate.
We have a God who is deeplypassionate.
We have a God who getsincredibly angry.
We have a God who dances anddelights with joy, who runs out
and grabs the prodigal son andthrows a party.
We have a God who hasincredible emotions that are
exactly perfect at all theplaces and all the times.
(19:59):
We were made in God's image.
Those emotions are good, butthey're not the perfect
indicator, and so sometimes wejust have to go.
God's given me this passion atthis moment to fight for
something, but I can fight to beright and destroy a
relationship, or I can fight tobe righteous so that we can get
to right that in those meetings.
(20:21):
The mark of a good leader isn'tsomeone who solves all the
problems.
It's who gets the gifts at thetable that God gave and to learn
and grow in relationship witheach other and to solve that
problem together.
And so we're in such a we gotto solve this problem now so we
can move on to the next oneversus.
The problem is our relationship.
(20:43):
If I'm not honest and genuinethe way I'm feeling, then I
can't be honest and genuine inthe relationship.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
And that's yeah, that's the most fun thing,
michael is when we're honest andvulnerable.
It creates trust, and trust isthe speed for innovation, for
creativity, for appropriateproblem solving, for new
ministry launch.
I mean, we move at the speed oftrust, to be sure.
But when we keep those emotions, how we're feeling, and don't
kind of test it with our friends, our partners in the gospel,
(21:11):
obviously it starts in our homewhen we bottle up.
I've been on a kick.
I think we're over in thechurch largely, we're passive
and we've almost worn ourpassivity like it's a strong
virtue and it leads towardpassive, aggressive behavior
which destroys trust, destroysteam, obviously has a potential
to destroy the mission of thelocal church.
(21:33):
Say more there, michael.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
So trust is when words and actions align
obviously has a potential todestroy the mission of the local
church.
Say more there, michael.
So trust is when words andactions align.
If your words and your actionsaren't aligning, then you don't
build trust, you can't havetrust.
So if somebody is saying onething and doing something else,
then there's not going to betrust.
And trust is earned at thespeed of relationship.
(21:57):
So if I put $5 a day in yourbank, tim, if I put $5 a day in
your bank for one week that'sseven days, seven times five is
you ready to do the math?
35, right?
If I have 35 bucks in the bankand I write a check some of your
listeners won't know what thatis, but I write a check for $50,
what happens?
The check bounces and in somestates you can charge up to
(22:18):
three times the amount as apenalty.
So if I wrote a check for $35,to multiply that times three,
that's the penalty I have to payon the $35 check.
Now come back to it.
If I put $5 a day in TimAllman's bank for a year let's
just call it $1,500 to make iteasy and, tim, if I take $200
(22:44):
out of the bank, what's going tohappen?
Speaker 2 (22:47):
I mean you've made the investment, I mean you're
still going to have money in thebank.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
I still got money in the bank.
We're going to be okay.
For sure, we have relationship.
I have $1,200 more in the bank.
I still got money in the bank.
We're going to be okay.
For sure, we have relationship.
I have.
I have 1200 more dollars in thebank.
But here's the thing is I'm notgoing to save that for a rainy
day.
I'm not going well, I got 12.
So I can hurt us.
No, what it is is I'm saying Iwant to put that money back in
the bank because the moredeposits I have in the bank, the
(23:10):
more trust there is.
And so when somebody says, hey,just I was in the moment I had
to solve that I go great, Idon't even know what you did,
but good, because we have yearsof trust.
The challenge is we often putpeople in leadership positions
who have 35 bucks in the bank.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Good.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
What can happen then?
And at that point there'spenalties all over the place,
that's body bagging, people inministry left and right.
Instead to go, we're going towalk at the speed of trust,
where you know my words and myactions align, and I know yours
do, and we're going to take thetime to move at the speed of
relationship, because that's howJesus was he walked three miles
(23:51):
an hour, but you know, if youwalk three miles an hour
regularly, you're going to go along, long way.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
What do you think of that?
It went all the way to thecross for sure.
So you got me thinking aboutleaders who maybe have a
position of influence beforetheir character has caught up,
and I'll just use myself as anexample.
There's no way I'm able to comeinto a divided church and
school with $11 million in debt,worshiping 400 people with a
(24:21):
school close to closing A lot ofdifferent opportunities for
failure and able to find our way.
I was not prepared, say26-year-old Tim, I needed those
five years of mentorship Somemay say longer but the Lord
called and he made a way and Ihad to ask for help from all
sorts of people because it wasvery evident I never.
(24:42):
It was very evident I neededhelp.
I never want to forget whatit's like not to know and then
maintain curiosity, thinkingthat what got us here like this
is what's going to take us there.
It's always going to bedifferent.
My leadership is going tocontinue to evolve.
But I think a lot of times foryoung leaders think coming
(25:04):
straight out of the seminary andthen a number of them have some
really adaptive leadershipchallenges and unless there's
mentorship and coaching andtesting and someone who's just
ahead not too far ahead, butjust ahead and can kind of
provide a little bit of aroadmap, and then the young
pastor has a humility to say Iknow what I don't know, like I
know a fair amount of thingstheologically, but as it relates
toward creating and sustainingorganizational health leading to
financial stability and allthose types of things, there's
(25:26):
way more to learn as you get outand sometimes I don't think
about this too much, but I dohave concern for I should think
about it more probably for the26 to 28 year old leader who's
just trying to make it and he'sinheriting probably like a 60 to
120 year old institution that'smaybe worshiping 70, 80 people,
(25:51):
but they're man, they'repassionate people.
How does he enter into thatsystem and survive?
Right, I think it's got to bewith the love and mentorship of
someone who's going to help hischaracter progress at the same
rate, if not at a greater rate,than his content.
The things that he's put intohis mind Say more there about
the young leader.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
So the amazing thing is and this is just how our
amazing God is is our reality isnone of us are exceptional.
If I don't get enough sleep, mybody will catch up with it.
If I don't eat healthy, if I'mnot stretching, if I'm not doing
the things I'm supposed to do,I'm not exceptional.
I will get injured, I will gettired, I will get overweight, I
(26:34):
will be spiritually empty.
None of us are exceptional.
Okay, so when we're kind of, ifyou listen to the ordination
vows of a pastor, it's basicallyyou're promising that you're
going to care for everybody allthe time, everywhere.
Right?
Our wedding vows are like foursentences.
Our ordination vows are like14,000 sentences At least that's
(26:57):
the way it feels.
Right Instead to go?
You know what?
My responsibility is to lovethe person in front of me, and
my responsibility is to equipthe people around me to love the
people in front of them.
So let's just really simplifythis and to say I see a young
pastor who's worried.
Is he going to kill this church?
(27:17):
When I drove up the graveldriveway in the dual type parish
that I served at, there was amission church and a larger
church I pulled into thedriveway and I kid you not, tim?
This is literally what I said.
Well, if this place disappears,nobody will know, which meant
if I kill this place, we'regoing to be okay.
We had a big celebration.
(27:39):
I was installed.
I'm putting all my books in theright order, you know
systematics, historical andpractical.
I've got them all up on theshelf.
It's my first day in the officeand I lean back and I literally
I went like this Now what?
Bam, bam bam on the back doorof the church, which everyone
(28:00):
thought the back door was thefront door, and the guy's name
is Art and Art goes my name'sArt.
I'm a Mason, are you for me oragainst me?
And I looked at him and I saidI said I bet I can get lunch out
of this.
And he goes, I'll pick you upat noon and we went out for
lunch.
Now I will tell you he was aMason because he loved steak and
a cheap steak at the Masonhouse and whatever.
I held his hand as he passedaway.
(28:23):
A beautiful follower of Jesus.
Right, I'm sitting here going.
How do I not stop this placefrom dying?
And I just needed people in mylife to tell me.
It's about you to help equip usand it's about us helping equip
you.
See, there's two things everyyoung pastor and leader needs to
hear, but I'll say this forpastors there's two questions
(28:45):
that every parishioner is askingabout.
A new pastor just installed,and if you can answer these two
questions generally, you'regoing to be okay.
The first question that mostparishioners want to ask is will
he love me?
They don't got the whole, whythere's no reciprocity in the
Gainis, apos, thales, monicumand Lila Crooks, hale-gorim.
They're not thinking about that, they just wonder will this
(29:08):
person care about me?
But the second question, tim,is equally important Will he let
me love him Now?
But the second question, tim,is equally important Will he let
me love him Now?
You can't have full access byeverybody all the time.
Right, of course not.
But the reality is, when we arehonest and vulnerable in
appropriate ways at appropriatetimes, we are inviting people to
(29:28):
understand.
That's who God is.
I'm not God.
I am not God, and it's not myjob to believe for you.
It is my job to love you, asGod does his amazing work
through his word.
And so, if we can remember,it's not our job to save the
church, it's our job to pointthe world to the Savior.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
That's so good.
So God gave you an extra amountof wisdom, bro, and I just love
taking it in.
Your second question is reallya wonderful one.
Will he allow us to love him?
And you know, sometimes I think, pastors, we can have a
tendency toward pride which ismasking, I think, our insecurity
(30:10):
.
Because if I really let peoplesee all that's, all that's going
on, would they still love me?
Would my voice still matter?
Would the authority of theoffice be demeaned, or something
like that?
And then I just always go backto Jesus.
And Jesus had friends, right.
The God of the universe, letother people love him.
The audacity of this I'm reading, because we're recording this
(30:32):
during Holy Week, wednesday ofHoly Week, and I'm reading we've
been going through Mark In Mark14, jesus is in the garden and
he's sorrowful unto the point ofdeath, deeply distressed.
The text says and he takesPeter, james and John, who have
seen him be transfigured, beenwith Moses and Elijah, he takes
(30:53):
his inner circle of closefriends and just wait with me
and watch and pray, right, andhe comes back to him over and
over, and I think thesensitivity of Jesus at three
times.
Could you not just be here withme in this and the flesh, you
know, takes over and they needsome sleep.
It's been a long, emotional dayand they don't really
understand, you know, thegravity of all that Jesus is
(31:14):
carrying or what he's enteringinto.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
And don't forget, they had seven cups of wine at
the Passover meal.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
So fair enough.
They've eaten and drank andthey are sleepy that's the way
it goes late into the evening,thank you.
But Jesus needed just Jesusneeded friends and I don't think
we let that shape our ministry.
And it doesn't mean you have tobe close, intimate friends with
everyone in the congregation.
There's no possible way you can.
But are you the reason I'm hereand you develop such good
(31:42):
relationships at St John's andnow, I'm sure, there in Lincoln
at Christ Lutheran?
I mean you need nestedrelationships to feel secure
from your home to your intimatekind of more close friends that
you share Pretty much.
You're an open book with out toa wider community, to a village
, and I feel like man pastors,we could learn a fair amount
(32:05):
from Jesus about becoming morevulnerable.
Yeah, yeah, go ahead, michael.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
And when you find friends who want better for you
do than you do.
I have been blessed withamazing friendships and I have
friends who are willing to risktheir relationship to tell me
what I need to hear.
That is a friend.
That is a friend who stickscloser than a brother, and so
it's not that everybody likes meor like everyone, but I have
(32:32):
people who go.
Michael, like Mrs Green, youcan do better and I'll walk with
you there.
When you surround yourself,especially men to men and women
to women, when you surroundyourself with godly men who call
you on your crap because theycare about you and they love you
and they also call you out togo.
You worked really hard.
Well done, well done, brother.
(32:55):
You leaned into the battle, youtook some scars and we are
better because you did that.
Thank you.
It's both and it's not eitheror Right.
And so that ability to say Iwill allow meaningful
relationship into my life and ifpeople aren't looking for
meaningful relationship, thenit's okay, move on.
I just give thanks to God forthe people who love me enough to
(33:21):
tell me what I need to hear.
Can I go back to that gravelroad church Please, real quick.
I was so taught that the sermonhas to be perfect in every way,
shape and form, you know, andpreaching is critical.
Preaching is essential that itis flowing from and back to
God's word, and so forth.
It is a high priority, right,very high priority now that I've
(33:43):
covered my bases on that.
But, man, I was spending moretime practicing delivering my
sermon from a manuscript to makesure I got it right than living
it out myself.
And this couple that comes tothis tiny little church, they go
.
You know, this is our thirdSunday here and we just have a
question why do you use amanuscript?
(34:04):
I think we trust you more thanyou do.
That was the last day I everused a manuscript.
That was 32 years ago.
Now I write out sermons and Ido outlines.
I do all that.
But I step into the pulpit withjust a three or four sentence
outline because I'm prepared,I'm ready to go.
But what did they do?
(34:25):
They said you don't trustyourself.
That's confusing to us.
How can we expect to trustourselves or trust God if you're
not doing that?
And when you let people speakinto your life like that, it's
because they care.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Amen, so good.
Satan really doesn't like whenpastors are healthy, did
emotionally, physically,theologically well.
He aims to steal, kill, destroyand divide right.
So what words of wisdom do youhave for pastors and their
families who feel like they'respiritually oppressed?
Because Satan certainly isattacking?
(35:02):
Say something there, michael.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
Yeah.
So the reality is, god wants todivide intimate relationships
in to me, you see.
So the closer thoserelationships are, the more the
evil one wants to divide them,and he usually does it by
something that sounds good, butit's usually it happens.
It'll be easier if you just dothis and we can come back to the
(35:25):
$5 a day in the bank.
How am I?
I'm going to use a differentillustration.
If I have a plant that I never,ever, ever, ever water, tim, if
I have a live plant that I neverwater and you can tell by my
office, I love plants what'sgoing to happen to that plant,
tim?
It's going to die.
(35:46):
How many relationships that arejust longing the way?
I long to be connected to mydad, who did the best he could,
who I give thanks to God for.
I honor that God used him togive me life, but I just wanted
to hear that I was worthy, thatI had value, and the people of
God stepped in and did that Samething.
(36:07):
If I water a plant every singleday, tim, every single day, I
just pour water onto it, what'sgoing to happen to that plant?
You're going to suffocate,you're going to die.
It drowned, it dies.
So relationships are like driplines.
How am I in the variousrelationships?
Some require more water, likeplants require more water, some
(36:27):
require less water.
If you overwater it back andforth, you're hurting the plant.
You learn through relationship.
We have to teach people how tolove us.
And so I have one staff personwho says Michael, you encourage
me so much.
Thank you, keep encouraging me.
Your words of encouragementbless me.
I have another staff person whogoes would you please never
(36:49):
encourage me again, because itmakes me think you don't think
that I know that.
So stop with the encouragement.
And I said well, I can do that.
It's going to happen.
Sorry, it's going to happen.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:06):
But I promise I'm going to do a whole lot less of
it.
Yeah, and I promise you that.
I know you don't want publicacknowledgement, but you just
got to suck it up and take it.
Can we agree twice a year,twice a year?
Can I let the congregation knowwhat a remarkable gift you are?
And they go.
You promise just to.
We have to know how much waterwe need or not need, and that
(37:33):
comes through the power ofrelationship.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
That's right.
That's right.
I'm glad you used a differentanalogy than the math, because I
stink at math, so I'm groovingwith the plant analogy.
I love plants too.
You know my desert plants.
They only need water about oncea month to every six weeks.
Yep, if I give it once a week,like the other kind of annual
little plants back there, myannuals are so needy.
You know, right now it's so hot.
(37:57):
I got to hit those guys up atleast every other day or they're
going to shrivel up and die.
I think that's a really, reallyhelpful handle for
understanding the diversity ofneeds in people.
What you have my mind going tois I think you also introduced
me to family systems theory,michael, come on.
I mean failure of nerve, edwinFriedman and everything there.
Pete Steinke I think you had mereading Pete Steinke before I
(38:19):
even entered into my doctorateand had him as a professor.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
And the height of familysystems theory is differentiated
and connected at the same time.
Differentiated.
If we go too far that way,that's divorce, that's
disconnection, we obviouslydon't want to be there.
And on the other hand, it'semotional and relational fusion.
Where you start, I have to, andwe're intertwined and it's
(38:40):
really really messy.
I have to and we're intertwinedand it's really really messy.
Your identity is laid over thetop of me, but I still need to
be in connection and I need toknow my identity is fully
grounded in Jesus.
I think my favorite part andthis was a pastor friend, local
here pointed this out to mePhilippians 13.
My son actually wrote it on hisarm the other day before he
(39:02):
went and ran a race.
He was running the 400 andeverything.
And, son, I go, do you knowwhat?
Do you know what Philippians4.13?
Dad, I know what Philippians4.13 is.
I can do all things.
You're going to give mestrength, right.
And then I because this is mypastor friend had pointed out to
me Do you know what the versethat comes right after that is?
And yet it was kind of you toshare in my suffering.
So you see Paul saying I am, Ican do it Like, the Holy Spirit
(39:22):
lives within me, I am enough,I'm a somebody right, I'm
baptized and then at the verysame time, but there's no way I
can possibly do this alone.
You are with me in my sufferingand maintaining differentiation
and connection that looksdifferent based on the
personality, the lifeexperiences, the emotional needs
of the other person, and that'swhy curiosity, especially for
(39:44):
first chair leaders, is so, soimportant, because it's going to
take time to put that $5 intothe bank or just the right
amount of water into thatrelationship.
Anything to add there as itrelates to family systems,
michael.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
So to be able to say to someone I'm not sure how to
love you right now, Could youteach me?
And so, instead of guessing tolove you right now, Could you
teach me?
And so, instead of guessing,just ask.
And if it covers the three H'sthe three H's is so critical
Honor, honor, honor.
Does it show honor to God, Doesit show honor to them, Does it
show honor to you?
If that request rests in thosethree things, go for it.
(40:18):
Do it Ask people, tell me thebest way I can love you right
now.
And if I can't do it, then I'mgoing to say I don't know how to
do that, but I'm willing tolearn.
And that power again ofvulnerability, of repentance, of
saying I have to have theanswer to everything right now,
no, I live in the one who is theanswer.
And so he says let me love youand the rest is going to take
(40:41):
care of itself.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Yeah, Amen, hey, this has been so good I got.
I got just a few more minutes,but I could talk to you for a
long period of time and I knowour listeners have been super,
super blessed.
You've you've prioritizedhealthy habits over the years
and you also pass that along tome.
I mean, some of my rotationsright now are listening to, like
(41:05):
the Model Health Show.
He's one Sean Stevenson hasthese amazing guests on, and his
most recent episode that Ilistened to, even this morning
for about 15 minutes, was onaging and building more muscle
lean muscle as we continue toget older.
That's way more important.
By just a little side note,let's stop talking about weight
loss.
Let's start talking aboutmuscle gain, especially as we
(41:28):
continue to get older.
That's way more important.
By just a little side note,let's stop talking about weight
loss.
Let's start talking aboutmuscle gain, especially as we
age.
And so, yeah, bingo, we've gotto move mass, whether it's your
body weight or some kind ofother weight.
You were put on planet Earth tomove.
My goal is to move somethingevery single day.
I want to sweat every singleday.
I want sweat every single day.
I wanna get enough water in mybody that the whole system's
working appropriately, because Iknow that in my day are going
(41:49):
to come stressful situations andI know and science has backed
it up that I'm gonna handlestress better if I've taken care
of the temple of the HolySpirit first hour of the day.
Own the morning, own the day.
So anything you prioritize.
Obviously pickleball, I golf,there's some other kind of
recreational relational thingsthat I have in my world, but
talk about healthy habits,michael.
Speaker 3 (42:10):
So every day my nose is on the front door of the
church I'm sorry at the gym at 4am yeah, wow, that gym opens at
4 am.
I'm generally the one holdingthe door for people coming in
and then I get in the pool and Iswim for an hour to an hour and
20 minutes.
I have bone conduction headsets, so I spend the first part of
my swim quiet and I imagine thatI'm swimming in the waters of
(42:34):
my baptism.
I'm going to start this daywith the grace of God and then
I'm going to put on somescripture.
I'm going to listen to the sameseven chapters of scripture a
day for a week so I can begin tofunctionally memorize it.
And then by the day five mymind's going everywhere, but
then I'm going to hear somethingin it.
It's going to draw me back.
(42:54):
Then I'll listen to a podcast,and I'll listen to a number of
different podcasts and then myswim is pretty much done by that
point.
But I've started my dayrefreshed, ready to go.
I'm back to the office by 5.30.
And generally my day is done by3.
(43:14):
And I'm out playing pickleball,I'm loving on the neighbors
with my wife.
I'm just that rhythm.
And so the importance ofhydration and the importance of
oxygenation.
Americans really suck atbreathing and drinking water.
Speaker 2 (43:27):
That's true.
That seems so simple.
How can you suck at breathing?
It seems pretty natural.
So say more about why we're notbreathing.
Well, say more there.
Speaker 3 (43:35):
So when you get into conflict, you stop breathing.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
That's it.
Speaker 3 (43:39):
Fight, flight or freeze right.
So when you're caught up intothat, you stop breathing and so
just learning how to take a deepbreath.
And then, second of all, torecognize that God is interested
in you, is not interested inyou being happy, he's really
interested in you being content.
And when you're content andyou're just saying God, I don't
(44:02):
have to be perfect today, Idon't have to have all my stuff
together today, but I am clearlyworking in my life on four
things on a regular basis 1% ata time physical, emotional,
spiritual, familial 1% goals.
So if I walk into a room andthe room looks good but there's
(44:22):
a piece of trash on the floor, Ipick it up.
Why?
Because now the room's 1%better.
And if you can get something tochange by 10%, if you change
your muscle mass by 10%, yourbody becomes this incredible
roaring fire.
It's amazing.
So you never get to 100%, but,man, if you're at 1% on a
(44:46):
regular basis, your life changesdramatically and it's just
doing the things that God hasmade as obvious for us Exercise,
breathing, intimacy,relationship, encouragement just
1% of the time.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
That's so good.
You're bringing out the coachin me.
I coach high school footballand we use the same.
It's not about the destination,it's about the process, and the
process is small, smallincremental deposits as and this
is for spiritual as we grow upinto Jesus, who is the head, as
I think of you know muscle, etcetera, the church generally.
(45:21):
Well, what's the metaphor thatthe apostle Paul uses?
It's the body right and is ourbody atrophying?
Are we aging?
Are we and even like a localchurch you can look at the
metaphor there or are we?
Are we growing up?
And and we're lovinglychallenging one another?
We're a family, we're growingup through difficult
(45:41):
conversations.
This entire conversation hasbeen the let's, let's all grow
up together.
My growth is going to look alittle bit different than your
growth, but because my gifts area little bit different than
your gifts, but, man, I'mgrowing and it's fun.
Join the journey right.
Say more there.
Speaker 3 (45:57):
I'm going to take this down a little bit of a
different road, and this is aPeter Scazzaro.
I'm a big Peter Scazzaro fan.
One cannot be spirituallymature and emotionally immature
at the same time, and thegreatest challenges of our
church today and I believe thisis that we are a sea of
one-year-old baby Christians.
So you can be in a church for60 years and still be a baby
(46:20):
Christian of one year old,longing for milk rather instead
of meat, and so the great taskbefore is to be highly
invitational but highlychallenging.
We're going to invite you intosomething amazing and it's going
to rock you to the core right.
I know somebody once said youknow, I thought when I became a
Christian it meant more thanwriting a check and sitting in a
(46:41):
pew.
What that whole understandingI'm being surrounded by and I'm
surrounding people to help themto grow up into him.
Who is the head?
So when the apostle, when Jesus, said you must be perfect, as
your father in heaven is perfectthe word there for perfect is
mature he wants us to matureemotionally.
(47:01):
He wants us to maturespiritually, to grow up, and too
often the church is a placewhere people are given a green
light to be five-year-oldsfoolishly fighting people
instead of love and joy andpeace and patience and kindness
and goodness, gentleness andfaithfulness.
(47:22):
That's what God says.
This is what happens when yougrow up into me, so good.
Speaker 2 (47:28):
I have spoken a lot over the years on this podcast
about honestly addressing areasof growth in our individual
churches and in our church body,and there are certain issues
that I can't even publicly talkabout anymore.
Yeah, and that's unfortunate,and I've said I'm sorry if I've
(47:49):
been too frank, but I'm hopefulthat the right people in the
right rooms can honestly haveconversation that leads toward
growth heart, body, mind, spiritfor the quantity and quality of
every person, from pastors tojust the everyday plumber to see
their life is on mission.
(48:10):
That's the one biggest thingthat you've taught me and if
you're going into mission thisis what Jesus invited the
disciples into the mission isgoing to get messy and I'm
calling, I'm going to be withyou.
There, through every Jesus isthe high invitation Come, follow
me.
Oh, and then go learn what it'slike to die.
That doesn't sound like it'slow challenge.
Jesus gives the greatestchallenge of all time.
(48:32):
You're going to be my witnessesMartireo, jerusalem, judea,
samaria, to the ends of theearth.
And sometimes I feel like youknow I don't know that the LCMS
in general is creating the spacefor conversations of high
invitation and hospitality, allof our churches being places
where everybody can meet andfollow Jesus here.
(48:52):
And man, I'm inviting you upinto this, and meaning up into
this means having conversationsabout our functional and
dysfunctional emotions.
Functional and dysfunctionalemotions and I think, as German
Lutherans maybe stoic andpassive we have more growth, we
have more growth room there.
(49:13):
And I feel like final point, Ifeel like there are so many
precious saints in all of ourpews and chairs that are waiting
for pastors and leaders tonotice them, love them and call
them to something more in theirrespective vocations.
And yeah, I want to be a partof that, you want to be a part
of that, and our congregationsare places that are like this is
what we're living.
It's high challenge, highinvitation, and I just honestly
(49:36):
want all of the congregations inthe Lutheran Church Missouri
Synod to experience how fun thisis.
Michael Thoughts there.
Speaker 3 (49:42):
Model the behavior you want to see.
Don't wait for other people toget it.
Just do it.
Don't worry about what otherpeople are doing.
God will put whoever in theirpath with law or gospel.
In the meantime, do the workthat God has put in front of you
.
Recognize that the goal is notto get people to come here a
paid professional.
(50:02):
The goal is to get someone whohas been touched by the grace of
Jesus that you're going to bein their life.
Can I finish with a fun storytoday?
Speaker 2 (50:11):
Let's go.
Speaker 3 (50:12):
I go to a pretty rough barbershop.
I know that sounds funny, butit's a rough barbershop and they
call me preacher and whatever.
Speaker 2 (50:20):
You're in Lincoln.
Is there a rough part ofLincoln?
Speaker 3 (50:22):
Oh, yeah, oh yeah, oh man, there's a, there's a hood
where there's a traffic lightthat doesn't work.
Speaker 2 (50:28):
I'm just saying it's tough, no but it's tough on the
streets in Lincoln.
Speaker 3 (50:31):
Anyway, go ahead Actually it's more than you
realize, but it's a great cityand a great place.
Speaker 2 (50:36):
Love it, love it.
Speaker 3 (50:37):
Anyway, at this barbershop, so that the F word
is flying around all over theplace.
And I'm there getting my haircut by my favorite barber, cam
he's a great guy and somebodyleans over and goes, prancher,
can you say the F word?
And I open my eyes and go yeah,yeah, I can say the F word.
And he goes and the whole roomgets quiet and another barber
(51:00):
goes over.
Would you say it now out loud?
I said so.
You want me to use the F wordright now, in public, completely
silent.
I go okay, and people lean in sodang funny.
And I go forgiven.
That's what every single one ofyou is forgiven.
(51:21):
You may think the world is alleffed up, but God believes that
there's more than enoughforgiveness, has delivered to
you more than enough forgivenessyou could ever imagine.
I didn't think about that.
It's just saying being in aplace and a space and God doing
something, and that's what theHoly Spirit does.
He'll give you the words, he'llgive you what needs to be done.
In the meantime, lean in, getyour hair cut in kind of rough
(51:44):
places and love the person Godputs in front of you and be
amazed.
Speaker 2 (51:49):
This has been one of my.
I get to talk with so manypeople, so much to learn and top
five podcasts.
Man, I've ever been a part ofso many emotions.
My cup overflows and I amfilled with joy heading into
Thursday, friday and Saturdayand Sunday of this most holy of
weeks.
Reverend Dr Michael Echocamp,if people want to connect with
you and just pray for you, howcan they do so?
Speaker 3 (52:10):
Yeah, just reach out to me at my email at
mechocampatchristlincolnorg.
Speaker 2 (52:16):
Praying for you and the mission of God's people
there at Christ.
And yeah, jesus is.
We're Christ Greenfield, christLincoln, all these amazing
Lutheran churches trying toadvance the cause of Christ in
the hood of.
We got a hood in Gilbert too,michael.
It gets rough.
We actually had some boys it'snot a great story the Gilbert
(52:38):
goons.
They were called Some boys withfamilies with too much money
and disconnected parents andthey went on like a rage rampage
about a year ago or so, andthat's in the newspapers from
time to time.
So, gilbert, gilbert's a roughspot too, but we all, we all
need Jesus and Jesus is so inlove with you, michael, and
thank you for passing that loveon to me and to your
(53:00):
congregation and to so many, somany leaders.
This is lead time.
Please like, subscribe, commentwherever it is you take in
these, and this was anencouraging conversation, these
encouraging conversations, andwe promise to continue to invite
wonderful men and women filledwith the Holy Spirit into Jesus
centered conversations into thefuture.
It's a good day.
Go and make it a great day.
Thanks so much, michael.
Love you brother.
Speaker 3 (53:21):
Love you back, my friend.
Speaker 1 (53:22):
You Good day.
Go and make it a great day.
Thanks so much, michael.
Love you, brother.
Love you back, my friend.
You've been listening to LeadTime, a podcast of the Unite
Leadership Collective.
The ULC's mission is tocollaborate with the local
church to discover, develop anddeploy leaders through biblical
Lutheran doctrine and innovativemethods To partner with us in
this gospel message.
Subscribe to our channel, thengo to theuniteleadershiporg to
create your free login forexclusive material and resources
(53:45):
and then to explore ways inwhich you can sponsor an episode
.
Thanks for listening and staytuned for next week's episode.
This is Lead Time.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Welcome to Lead Time, tim Allman here.
Jack Kalberg has the day offand I am so excited for our
conversation today.
Jesus Joy is going to bepresent as I get to sit down and
learn with and honor a man wholargely shaped my early
leadership life.
I'll tell you what, if itweren't for this man, I don't
(00:24):
know.
I don't know what would havehappened on so many levels.
This is the Reverend Dr MichaelAL Echolkamp.
He is currently serving as aSenior Executive Director at
Christ Lincoln Church andSchools.
This vibrant community has aregular attendance of
approximately 2,500 Jesusfollowers who are sent out on
(00:45):
mission connected to their threecampuses.
Michael graduated from ConcordiaUniversity, portland, in 1985,
majoring in biblical languages,behavioral sciences.
That explains a lot.
He attended and graduated fromConcordia Seminary in 1990 there
in St Louis with a Master ofDivinity, 90 there in St Louis
with a Master of Divinity, andthen he got his Master of Sacred
(01:07):
Theology, his STM, in 1991.
He completed his doctorate atWestminster Theological Seminary
in 2002.
You were just in school forquite a while there, michael.
He's currently also a graduateof the PLI, the Pastoral
Leadership Institute, andcurrently mentoring 10 pastors.
He regularly speaks todistricts, circuits and
congregations on developingintentional outreach into their
local communities.
His great joy is to mentor,encourage.
(01:30):
Through high invitation andhigh challenge he mentors and
coaches leaders to serve theircommunities.
They release all of God'speople out in love in mission to
make Jesus known using theirrespective gifts.
And the last note about Michaelhe currently is an avid
pickleball fan and also teachespickleball at a local community
college.
Michael Lechokamp, how are youdoing, buddy?
Speaker 3 (01:51):
I am doing spectacular.
What a joy it is just to get toreconnect with you.
I tell you, when I think of you, my heart smiles.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Well, mine is.
I'm smiling wider, michael, andhere's why I got to tell you
the story.
This man reached out Now.
I thought I thought you wereold at the time.
Looking back, you're probablymy age right right now.
Right.
And Michael says, hey, come onover to.
He was at St John's in Denverat the time.
I'm probably 27, 28, one or twoyears out of the seminary at
(02:23):
Bethlehem, lutheran and Lakewood.
And he says, hey, I'm bringinga number of younger leaders
together.
We're going to read some bookstogether and pray and encourage
one another, and you know we'lldo it about every other month or
so.
Tim, you want to come and be apart of that, and it was one of
my best next to marrying my wife.
It was one of my favorite top10 yeses that I ever said,
because those three or fouryears being in a consistent
(02:47):
mentoring relationship with youhaving all of the, it really was
some family systemsconversation.
What does it look like to leadwith integrity and courage and
humility?
And you let us behind thecurtain of what it looked like
to lead in your chair at StJohn's the level of access we
had to all of the wisdom thatJesus had given you that you
(03:09):
just poured out so abundantlyupon us.
You know, looking back, andthere are many other things you
could have been doing, butmentoring young leaders casting
vision for young leaders has amultiplying impact that goes way
beyond just your local context,michael, and I'm better, and
multiple people that I've got tomentor and coach pass it on to
(03:30):
are better because of you.
So thank you for being a riverrather than a reservoir,
reverend Dr Michael Echocamp.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
Well, my cup is full.
Thanks for talking today.
Appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Yeah.
So what gave you the drive topour into Young Leaders?
Tell that story.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Yeah.
So there's two stories reallyaround it, and it goes back to
my third grade teacher as funnyas this sounds and, of course,
an elementary school teacher.
Her name is Mrs Green.
There you go, and Mrs Greenrecognized that I was way behind
in reading and what she did isshe came alongside me and she
(04:06):
says you know, michael, you cando better and I'm going to help
you get there.
I will never forget that phrasehey, michael, you can do better
and I'm going to help you getthere.
So she stayed after school withme and gave me the personal time
, the relational time, coupledwith teaching me to read and
even more, teaching me the loveof reading.
(04:27):
That's what she did.
So by the time I got to sixthgrade, I'd read every Nancy Drew
, hardy Boyd book in the libraryGeorge Washington, abraham
Lincoln it ignited me on a lovein history.
I've read an autobiography onevery president and just wow,
she taught me the love oflearning, but she also taught me
(04:48):
it was possible.
She saw something that Icouldn't see and she chose to
speak to my journey.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Wow, can you hear the bell in the background?
Speaker 3 (04:57):
Yeah, it rings every time I say something powerful.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Let's go, but that's so true how we need those.
Mrs Greens, Shout out to everyelementary teacher you may think
that you're not doing I mean nocasting vision for six, seven,
eight, nine, all the way upthrough high school and college.
It's never too late to startlearning, and that's really.
It's not about what you learn,it's about developing, because
(05:22):
there's always more to learn.
But it's about developing thehabit of learning, the habit of
curiosity being called up andout.
I've wrestled this a lot,Michael.
There's no room in well, thereshouldn't be, but Satan comes at
us with this.
There's no room for pride inthis endeavor called learning,
because there's always someonewho's up and out, Because
there's always someone who's upand out.
(05:43):
Obviously, God is above, butit's the spirit of adventure,
the call of adventure, thatleads us to inevitable curiosity
.
And what that does in my heartis it locates people and says
you're fascinating.
Aren't people like the mostfascinating thing ever, Like how
God made us and our uniqueexperiences?
And so every person that I comein contact with, young and old,
(06:06):
this appears to be the postureof Jesus, One I'm fascinated,
I'm curious by, and I want tocall them up, up and out, having
something to learn in areciprocal relationship and
wanting to learn from them.
Talk about reciprocity inleadership and how that moves us
.
I think from seeing thehierarchy, though there's always
hierarchy, but it positions us,no matter what seat we take in
(06:28):
whatever organization.
It positions us with humilityand curiosity, Michael yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
So that word curiosity cur Latin and French.
That means heart, so it's aheart of wonder, it's a heart of
awe.
And so I think, truly, one mostpowerful prayer is you can pray
, especially in the midst ofconflict, is and so I think,
truly, one of the most powerfulprayers you can pray, especially
in the midst of conflict, isGod, I wonder what you're up to.
So you have the power to makeall things work together for
good, even this situation righthere.
(06:54):
And so, god, I wonder why I'min this place right here, right
now.
And that's not just times ofsadness or hardship or conflict,
it's also times of joy andcelebration.
But, god, I wonder what you'regoing to do with this.
I covered for a wedding forsomebody in Colorado Springs and
horrible traffic all the waydown, horrible traffic all the
(07:16):
way back.
I mean, it was a mess.
Caterer is four hours late forthe wedding and I am not pleased
.
This is I'm doing this for afriend, I don't know this couple
I am covering at the lastmoment and I'm like, ah, and one
of the bridesmaids comes overand sits down.
The service happens.
She says you know, you saidsomething about that.
(07:37):
God loves us passionately.
I don't get that, tell me aboutthat.
So over the next half an hourof time I share the gospel with
her.
And the bride comes over andsays hey, things are just
getting started, can we?
And she goes hey, I'm in themiddle of getting saved here.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
This can wait.
I need to be saved by Jesus.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
So I am mad as can be that my schedule has been
conflicted and God's going.
Really, I just sent you to golove on someone that you will
probably never meet again andtell them how to meet you again
in heaven.
Whatever you know, just thatpower of God, I'm going to be
available in this moment forwhoever you put in front of me
(08:19):
and for Jesus.
That was Pilate or a Samaritanwoman, it was a Roman centurion
or it was his dear friend,lazarus it was.
Who was it?
And God says I'm doingsomething here.
I'm on a mission for you andI'm on a mission with you.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Be somebody right over your left shoulder.
Be somebody who makes everybodyfeel like a somebody.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
Yeah, this morning at the gym I'm holding the door
for this woman and she's alittle ways off and she starts
to pick up the pace and I saidit's okay, You're worth the wait
.
And she goes.
And she did a little nervouslaugh.
I don't know her, she doesn'tknow me, I'm old enough not to
be scary.
Right, and I opened the door,said that A few minutes later
(09:06):
she goes.
Why'd you say that?
And I said because you matterto God, you should matter to me
Now.
That didn't lead to get on ourknees and accept Jesus as our
Savior, but it changed her daythat somebody held a door and
somebody reminded them that theywere worth it.
That's the beauty of our God,who works moment by moment.
Movements are moments bymoments by moments, stacked on
top of each other.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
That's it.
You said you had two stories.
Ooh, good job.
What was the other story?
What was your other story?
Speaker 3 (09:32):
I grew up in a home deeply, deeply impacted by
chemical addiction.
I've lost almost all my familymembers to it.
And there was Herbie.
I moved into an apartment inhigh school, worked a graveyard.
I'm just trying to survive.
I'd been a Christian for a fewyears and Herbie says you know,
michael, a young boy living inan apartment is bad.
(09:54):
Bad things happen to boys wholive in apartments by themselves
.
And so he took me, loved me,was Jesus to me, mentored me.
That's the power of mentoring.
So the Mrs Greens, herbies, theworld is desperately longing
for them and every follower ofJesus has the power to do the
(10:15):
very same thing.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Herbie, he didn't have to do that.
He took the time to notice thehurting and vulnerable young
Michael Echocamp, yep, and theworld is changed.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
And you know I'm not.
I wasn't as cool and suave.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
That's a lie.
Yes, you were.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
I was just that nerdy , that nerdy young kid, but
that's you know.
I have tears of joy becausewhen we connect to people and
God, we're doing it, because Godsaid I've got a divine
appointment for you and I'mgoing to care for you and I will
walk with you.
And I may walk with you for oneminute or one year, I don't
know, but God's doing somethingin the midst of it.
(10:56):
Yeah, so good.
Hey, thanks for letting me cryon your podcast.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
It's the best dude Tears of joy, tears of joy.
So healing, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
So Herbie just walked with me and he said you're
coming over for dinner everyWednesday, um, and if you can't
make it I'll come get you, butyou are not walking this journey
alone.
And just that, that word ofencouragement.
He didn't rescue me, hecouldn't fix it, but he could be
present in the midst of it.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Hey, one of my favorite books that I read with
you back in the day this isn'tany of the notes that I sent,
it's just jogging my memory andit's had a ripple impact.
It's a secular book but it isas sacred as you can possibly
imagine is a leadership inself-deception?
Yes, being in the box or out ofthe box toward another person?
(11:49):
What do you love most aboutleadership?
I mean, this is one of my topfive kind of leadership books
that I want to cycle through thelearning it's in story.
It's a powerful metaphor of abusiness leader who gets
transformed, but the applicationinto the life of the Christian
is exponential.
Any thoughts just generallyabout leadership and
self-deception, Michael?
Speaker 3 (12:08):
So whenever we think of the word deception, we have
to think of the evil one.
The evil one is the one whotries to convince us that we
don't have value, we don't haveworth, we don't have a mission.
It really doesn't matter.
Right, where God says you dohave value, you do have worth.
Everything you do matters, okay.
But here's the thing when weget to the end of the Lord's
prayer that was actually addedon around the 11th century not
(12:31):
what Jesus taught, but that lastpart for thine is the kingdom,
the power and the glory, when Ipray that this is what I do, I
go thine is the kingdom, thepower and the glory.
The deception is to think thatthis is my kingdom, my power, my
glory.
When I'm there, I'm like theevil one, caught up in pride.
That says this transactionalrelationship, what's it going to
(12:52):
bring me?
Instead, I've been given by aGod life, and life everlasting.
I've been placed into therescue boat of the greatest
mission in the history of theworld.
I don't need to gain anythingelse.
I have all that I need foreternity.
My job now is to speak intoothers.
Do I do that perfectly?
No.
Do I live in the grace everyday to start again?
(13:13):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
How does that change the way we walk through conflict
?
The book goes into being in thebox or out of the box, and when
we're in the box, toward others, we're lying Like we're in the
box.
Toward others, we're lying likewe're not the problem, like I
don't have any kind of problemand I need other people to be
the problem to justify myexistence.
And so this kind of crazycollusion cycle takes place that
(13:35):
I almost need the other personto be my enemy, anticipating
their inappropriate words, theirinappropriate intentions, and
this justifies my anger, myanxiety.
And then it just goes aroundand around in marriage right,
it's called the crazy cycle.
He doesn't love her, over time,she doesn't respect him, and
around and around it goes.
We collude with one anothertoward our own demise.
(13:58):
Humans are very good at ruiningour lives.
It's like Jesus wants to callus through confession and
absolution, confessing I'm theproblem, I'm the man, I'm the
one that walked right by, didn'thold the door open One of the
stories they tell.
I'm the man who stayed in bedwhen my little son, toddler son,
was crying and I, instead ofgetting up and doing what I
(14:20):
should have done in the moment,I betrayed myself and made
myself into the victim and mywife into the enemy.
Why would we ever want to dothat?
Right?
But this is the key towardunlocking the power of
conflicting well, one, takingresponsibility for what we did
and I've been down this path forquite a while, michael is the
(14:42):
length of things.
The list of things that I couldhave done, sins of omission
that I didn't do is very long.
So there is always room for meto take responsibility for
something I did or failed to do,and then to give the other
person the opportunity torelease me and the struggle to
Jesus, and I, in turn,reciprocate and do the exact
(15:03):
same confession and absolution.
Confession and forgiveness is agame changer.
First one to the cross wins Go.
Anything to say about that,michael, as it relates to the
book and or conflict resolution.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
So here's the right there in that word confession.
It's a Greek word that meanshomologia.
It's saying the same word.
God says you are a selfishcreature.
And I say yes, I am.
And God says I am a selfless.
God Be imitators of me aschildren that he loves.
And so in leadership andself-deception, we begin to
(15:37):
demonstrate the same behaviorthat the other person is doing.
That drives us crazy.
That's the deception point.
So I'm mad that someone doesn'tdeal with conflict well.
So I don't deal with conflictwell with them.
I'm colluding, you know usingthat word collusion.
And so the beautiful thing isvulnerability, the ability to
step into someone's life onesecond later or 15 years later
(16:02):
and say I'm a broken person whodid broken thing that breaks
things.
That's me.
And so you know, when we wereready to make a big decision in
Denver do we take on anothercampus or whatever?
And somebody raised their handand they said can you guarantee
this is going to work?
And I said I want to tell youthere's two things I'm afraid of
One.
(16:22):
I'm afraid this campus is goingto take off and do great things
and I'm going to take thecredit for it.
And the other thing I'm afraidof is it going to fail and
you're going to think less of me.
What I do know is, if thatcampus closes, it's probably
going to turn into a pop shop ora porn place, because it's
right in that neighborhood.
(16:43):
We cannot lose a footprint forthe gospel.
That's what I do know.
You get back to the honesty.
We have a God who loves us andforgives us.
He's not waiting for us toclean up so he can give us a
bath, but he's also inviting us,in the midst of our brokenness,
to be honest, to say the samething You're a sinner, yes, I am
honest.
(17:03):
To say the same thing You're asinner, yes, I am.
You are forgiven yes, I am.
So we're just telling God whatGod has told us You're a sinner,
yes.
You're forgiven, yes.
And that releases us from theneed of perfectionism and
instead to live in the messy,imperfect world we live in under
the perfect grace of an amazingGod.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
It's the best Words of wisdom.
You've been pastor how manyyears now?
30.
Right, that's a minute.
We'll double what I've been,and I kind of measure the rate
of organizational health basedon the quantity and quality of
(17:43):
the difficult conversations thatwe have.
Right, and and I can be cause Ican be overly frank I have in
the, in the dynamic to passivekind of behavioral tread traits.
I'm slightly imbalanced on thedynamic, aggressive side,
shocker this lesson over time tome.
But so in meetings, in meetingsthough, I've found that if I,
(18:06):
as one of the leaders and Iguess in my, you know, a lead
pastor, if I just take the riskand say, not condemnation or
shame, but take the risk and sayhow I'm feeling regarding this
struggle, whatever it may be,the other day I took a risk and
said, in the midst of aconversation that was kind of
spiraling and we were heading ina potentially dysfunctional
(18:29):
direction and blaming or shamingkind of you know, a certain
grouper that never happens inthe church, right, we, kind of
passively, but then you can kindof everybody knows who we're
talking about or what we'retalking about, or if that group
only did this and I'm like I ambecoming I attest to this.
I'm becoming mildly frustratedwith the direction of this
conversation right now andeverybody kind of and okay, and
(18:50):
we paused.
It kept going because we'reChrist Greenfield, we're a very
passionate group of people.
It kept going for a coupleother minutes and then I was
kind of like, okay, we're gonnastop.
So in small groups or meetings Ijust step up to that line to
let people know how I'memotionally feeling and it kind
of centers the group back toequilibrium.
(19:12):
Say more about the necessity ofexpressing as a leader maybe a
first chair, second chair,leader, whatever group of people
they're kind of leading takingthat emotional risk to say how,
wherever it could potentially bedysfunctional, is making you we
don't talk as Lutherans aboutour feelings too much, how it's
connecting with us emotionallyand how that provides
(19:33):
equilibrium to the team.
Say more there.
Echo Camp.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
First of all, we are fearfully and wonderfully made,
and we have a God who is deeplypassionate.
We have a God who is deeplypassionate.
We have a God who getsincredibly angry.
We have a God who dances anddelights with joy, who runs out
and grabs the prodigal son andthrows a party.
We have a God who hasincredible emotions that are
exactly perfect at all theplaces and all the times.
(19:59):
We were made in God's image.
Those emotions are good, butthey're not the perfect
indicator, and so sometimes wejust have to go.
God's given me this passion atthis moment to fight for
something, but I can fight to beright and destroy a
relationship, or I can fight tobe righteous so that we can get
to right that in those meetings.
(20:21):
The mark of a good leader isn'tsomeone who solves all the
problems.
It's who gets the gifts at thetable that God gave and to learn
and grow in relationship witheach other and to solve that
problem together.
And so we're in such a we gotto solve this problem now so we
can move on to the next oneversus.
The problem is our relationship.
(20:43):
If I'm not honest and genuinethe way I'm feeling, then I
can't be honest and genuine inthe relationship.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
And that's yeah, that's the most fun thing,
michael is when we're honest andvulnerable.
It creates trust, and trust isthe speed for innovation, for
creativity, for appropriateproblem solving, for new
ministry launch.
I mean, we move at the speed oftrust, to be sure.
But when we keep those emotions, how we're feeling, and don't
kind of test it with our friends, our partners in the gospel,
(21:11):
obviously it starts in our homewhen we bottle up.
I've been on a kick.
I think we're over in thechurch largely, we're passive
and we've almost worn ourpassivity like it's a strong
virtue and it leads towardpassive, aggressive behavior
which destroys trust, destroysteam, obviously has a potential
to destroy the mission of thelocal church.
(21:33):
Say more there, michael.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
So trust is when words and actions align
obviously has a potential todestroy the mission of the local
church.
Say more there, michael.
So trust is when words andactions align.
If your words and your actionsaren't aligning, then you don't
build trust, you can't havetrust.
So if somebody is saying onething and doing something else,
then there's not going to betrust.
And trust is earned at thespeed of relationship.
(21:57):
So if I put $5 a day in yourbank, tim, if I put $5 a day in
your bank for one week that'sseven days, seven times five is
you ready to do the math?
35, right?
If I have 35 bucks in the bankand I write a check some of your
listeners won't know what thatis, but I write a check for $50,
what happens?
The check bounces and in somestates you can charge up to
(22:18):
three times the amount as apenalty.
So if I wrote a check for $35,to multiply that times three,
that's the penalty I have to payon the $35 check.
Now come back to it.
If I put $5 a day in TimAllman's bank for a year let's
just call it $1,500 to make iteasy and, tim, if I take $200
(22:44):
out of the bank, what's going tohappen?
Speaker 2 (22:47):
I mean you've made the investment, I mean you're
still going to have money in thebank.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
I still got money in the bank.
We're going to be okay.
For sure, we have relationship.
I have $1,200 more in the bank.
I still got money in the bank.
We're going to be okay.
For sure, we have relationship.
I have.
I have 1200 more dollars in thebank.
But here's the thing is I'm notgoing to save that for a rainy
day.
I'm not going well, I got 12.
So I can hurt us.
No, what it is is I'm saying Iwant to put that money back in
the bank because the moredeposits I have in the bank, the
(23:10):
more trust there is.
And so when somebody says, hey,just I was in the moment I had
to solve that I go great, Idon't even know what you did,
but good, because we have yearsof trust.
The challenge is we often putpeople in leadership positions
who have 35 bucks in the bank.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Good.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
What can happen then?
And at that point there'spenalties all over the place,
that's body bagging, people inministry left and right.
Instead to go, we're going towalk at the speed of trust,
where you know my words and myactions align, and I know yours
do, and we're going to take thetime to move at the speed of
relationship, because that's howJesus was he walked three miles
(23:51):
an hour, but you know, if youwalk three miles an hour
regularly, you're going to go along, long way.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
What do you think of that?
It went all the way to thecross for sure.
So you got me thinking aboutleaders who maybe have a
position of influence beforetheir character has caught up,
and I'll just use myself as anexample.
There's no way I'm able to comeinto a divided church and
school with $11 million in debt,worshiping 400 people with a
(24:21):
school close to closing A lot ofdifferent opportunities for
failure and able to find our way.
I was not prepared, say26-year-old Tim, I needed those
five years of mentorship Somemay say longer but the Lord
called and he made a way and Ihad to ask for help from all
sorts of people because it wasvery evident I never.
(24:42):
It was very evident I neededhelp.
I never want to forget whatit's like not to know and then
maintain curiosity, thinkingthat what got us here like this
is what's going to take us there.
It's always going to bedifferent.
My leadership is going tocontinue to evolve.
But I think a lot of times foryoung leaders think coming
(25:04):
straight out of the seminary andthen a number of them have some
really adaptive leadershipchallenges and unless there's
mentorship and coaching andtesting and someone who's just
ahead not too far ahead, butjust ahead and can kind of
provide a little bit of aroadmap, and then the young
pastor has a humility to say Iknow what I don't know, like I
know a fair amount of thingstheologically, but as it relates
toward creating and sustainingorganizational health leading to
financial stability and allthose types of things, there's
(25:26):
way more to learn as you get outand sometimes I don't think
about this too much, but I dohave concern for I should think
about it more probably for the26 to 28 year old leader who's
just trying to make it and he'sinheriting probably like a 60 to
120 year old institution that'smaybe worshiping 70, 80 people,
(25:51):
but they're man, they'repassionate people.
How does he enter into thatsystem and survive?
Right, I think it's got to bewith the love and mentorship of
someone who's going to help hischaracter progress at the same
rate, if not at a greater rate,than his content.
The things that he's put intohis mind Say more there about
the young leader.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
So the amazing thing is and this is just how our
amazing God is is our reality isnone of us are exceptional.
If I don't get enough sleep, mybody will catch up with it.
If I don't eat healthy, if I'mnot stretching, if I'm not doing
the things I'm supposed to do,I'm not exceptional.
I will get injured, I will gettired, I will get overweight, I
(26:34):
will be spiritually empty.
None of us are exceptional.
Okay, so when we're kind of, ifyou listen to the ordination
vows of a pastor, it's basicallyyou're promising that you're
going to care for everybody allthe time, everywhere.
Right?
Our wedding vows are like foursentences.
Our ordination vows are like14,000 sentences At least that's
(26:57):
the way it feels.
Right Instead to go?
You know what?
My responsibility is to lovethe person in front of me, and
my responsibility is to equipthe people around me to love the
people in front of them.
So let's just really simplifythis and to say I see a young
pastor who's worried.
Is he going to kill this church?
(27:17):
When I drove up the graveldriveway in the dual type parish
that I served at, there was amission church and a larger
church I pulled into thedriveway and I kid you not, tim?
This is literally what I said.
Well, if this place disappears,nobody will know, which meant
if I kill this place, we'regoing to be okay.
We had a big celebration.
(27:39):
I was installed.
I'm putting all my books in theright order, you know
systematics, historical andpractical.
I've got them all up on theshelf.
It's my first day in the officeand I lean back and I literally
I went like this Now what?
Bam, bam bam on the back doorof the church, which everyone
(28:00):
thought the back door was thefront door, and the guy's name
is Art and Art goes my name'sArt.
I'm a Mason, are you for me oragainst me?
And I looked at him and I saidI said I bet I can get lunch out
of this.
And he goes, I'll pick you upat noon and we went out for
lunch.
Now I will tell you he was aMason because he loved steak and
a cheap steak at the Masonhouse and whatever.
I held his hand as he passedaway.
(28:23):
A beautiful follower of Jesus.
Right, I'm sitting here going.
How do I not stop this placefrom dying?
And I just needed people in mylife to tell me.
It's about you to help equip usand it's about us helping equip
you.
See, there's two things everyyoung pastor and leader needs to
hear, but I'll say this forpastors there's two questions
(28:45):
that every parishioner is askingabout.
A new pastor just installed,and if you can answer these two
questions generally, you'regoing to be okay.
The first question that mostparishioners want to ask is will
he love me?
They don't got the whole, whythere's no reciprocity in the
Gainis, apos, thales, monicumand Lila Crooks, hale-gorim.
They're not thinking about that, they just wonder will this
(29:08):
person care about me?
But the second question, tim,is equally important Will he let
me love him Now?
But the second question, tim,is equally important Will he let
me love him Now?
You can't have full access byeverybody all the time.
Right, of course not.
But the reality is, when we arehonest and vulnerable in
appropriate ways at appropriatetimes, we are inviting people to
(29:28):
understand.
That's who God is.
I'm not God.
I am not God, and it's not myjob to believe for you.
It is my job to love you, asGod does his amazing work
through his word.
And so, if we can remember,it's not our job to save the
church, it's our job to pointthe world to the Savior.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
That's so good.
So God gave you an extra amountof wisdom, bro, and I just love
taking it in.
Your second question is reallya wonderful one.
Will he allow us to love him?
And you know, sometimes I think, pastors, we can have a
tendency toward pride which ismasking, I think, our insecurity
(30:10):
.
Because if I really let peoplesee all that's, all that's going
on, would they still love me?
Would my voice still matter?
Would the authority of theoffice be demeaned, or something
like that?
And then I just always go backto Jesus.
And Jesus had friends, right.
The God of the universe, letother people love him.
The audacity of this I'm reading, because we're recording this
(30:32):
during Holy Week, wednesday ofHoly Week, and I'm reading we've
been going through Mark In Mark14, jesus is in the garden and
he's sorrowful unto the point ofdeath, deeply distressed.
The text says and he takesPeter, james and John, who have
seen him be transfigured, beenwith Moses and Elijah, he takes
(30:53):
his inner circle of closefriends and just wait with me
and watch and pray, right, andhe comes back to him over and
over, and I think thesensitivity of Jesus at three
times.
Could you not just be here withme in this and the flesh, you
know, takes over and they needsome sleep.
It's been a long, emotional dayand they don't really
understand, you know, thegravity of all that Jesus is
(31:14):
carrying or what he's enteringinto.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
And don't forget, they had seven cups of wine at
the Passover meal.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
So fair enough.
They've eaten and drank andthey are sleepy that's the way
it goes late into the evening,thank you.
But Jesus needed just Jesusneeded friends and I don't think
we let that shape our ministry.
And it doesn't mean you have tobe close, intimate friends with
everyone in the congregation.
There's no possible way you can.
But are you the reason I'm hereand you develop such good
(31:42):
relationships at St John's andnow, I'm sure, there in Lincoln
at Christ Lutheran?
I mean you need nestedrelationships to feel secure
from your home to your intimatekind of more close friends that
you share Pretty much.
You're an open book with out toa wider community, to a village
, and I feel like man pastors,we could learn a fair amount
(32:05):
from Jesus about becoming morevulnerable.
Yeah, yeah, go ahead, michael.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
And when you find friends who want better for you
do than you do.
I have been blessed withamazing friendships and I have
friends who are willing to risktheir relationship to tell me
what I need to hear.
That is a friend.
That is a friend who stickscloser than a brother, and so
it's not that everybody likes meor like everyone, but I have
(32:32):
people who go.
Michael, like Mrs Green, youcan do better and I'll walk with
you there.
When you surround yourself,especially men to men and women
to women, when you surroundyourself with godly men who call
you on your crap because theycare about you and they love you
and they also call you out togo.
You worked really hard.
Well done, well done, brother.
(32:55):
You leaned into the battle, youtook some scars and we are
better because you did that.
Thank you.
It's both and it's not eitheror Right.
And so that ability to say Iwill allow meaningful
relationship into my life and ifpeople aren't looking for
meaningful relationship, thenit's okay, move on.
I just give thanks to God forthe people who love me enough to
(33:21):
tell me what I need to hear.
Can I go back to that gravelroad church Please, real quick.
I was so taught that the sermonhas to be perfect in every way,
shape and form, you know, andpreaching is critical.
Preaching is essential that itis flowing from and back to
God's word, and so forth.
It is a high priority, right,very high priority now that I've
(33:43):
covered my bases on that.
But, man, I was spending moretime practicing delivering my
sermon from a manuscript to makesure I got it right than living
it out myself.
And this couple that comes tothis tiny little church, they go
.
You know, this is our thirdSunday here and we just have a
question why do you use amanuscript?
(34:04):
I think we trust you more thanyou do.
That was the last day I everused a manuscript.
That was 32 years ago.
Now I write out sermons and Ido outlines.
I do all that.
But I step into the pulpit withjust a three or four sentence
outline because I'm prepared,I'm ready to go.
But what did they do?
(34:25):
They said you don't trustyourself.
That's confusing to us.
How can we expect to trustourselves or trust God if you're
not doing that?
And when you let people speakinto your life like that, it's
because they care.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Amen, so good.
Satan really doesn't like whenpastors are healthy, did
emotionally, physically,theologically well.
He aims to steal, kill, destroyand divide right.
So what words of wisdom do youhave for pastors and their
families who feel like they'respiritually oppressed?
Because Satan certainly isattacking?
(35:02):
Say something there, michael.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
Yeah.
So the reality is, god wants todivide intimate relationships
in to me, you see.
So the closer thoserelationships are, the more the
evil one wants to divide them,and he usually does it by
something that sounds good, butit's usually it happens.
It'll be easier if you just dothis and we can come back to the
(35:25):
$5 a day in the bank.
How am I?
I'm going to use a differentillustration.
If I have a plant that I never,ever, ever, ever water, tim, if
I have a live plant that I neverwater and you can tell by my
office, I love plants what'sgoing to happen to that plant,
tim?
It's going to die.
(35:46):
How many relationships that arejust longing the way?
I long to be connected to mydad, who did the best he could,
who I give thanks to God for.
I honor that God used him togive me life, but I just wanted
to hear that I was worthy, thatI had value, and the people of
God stepped in and did that Samething.
(36:07):
If I water a plant every singleday, tim, every single day, I
just pour water onto it, what'sgoing to happen to that plant?
You're going to suffocate,you're going to die.
It drowned, it dies.
So relationships are like driplines.
How am I in the variousrelationships?
Some require more water, likeplants require more water, some
(36:27):
require less water.
If you overwater it back andforth, you're hurting the plant.
You learn through relationship.
We have to teach people how tolove us.
And so I have one staff personwho says Michael, you encourage
me so much.
Thank you, keep encouraging me.
Your words of encouragementbless me.
I have another staff person whogoes would you please never
(36:49):
encourage me again, because itmakes me think you don't think
that I know that.
So stop with the encouragement.
And I said well, I can do that.
It's going to happen.
Sorry, it's going to happen.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:06):
But I promise I'm going to do a whole lot less of
it.
Yeah, and I promise you that.
I know you don't want publicacknowledgement, but you just
got to suck it up and take it.
Can we agree twice a year,twice a year?
Can I let the congregation knowwhat a remarkable gift you are?
And they go.
You promise just to.
We have to know how much waterwe need or not need, and that
(37:33):
comes through the power ofrelationship.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
That's right.
That's right.
I'm glad you used a differentanalogy than the math, because I
stink at math, so I'm groovingwith the plant analogy.
I love plants too.
You know my desert plants.
They only need water about oncea month to every six weeks.
Yep, if I give it once a week,like the other kind of annual
little plants back there, myannuals are so needy.
You know, right now it's so hot.
(37:57):
I got to hit those guys up atleast every other day or they're
going to shrivel up and die.
I think that's a really, reallyhelpful handle for
understanding the diversity ofneeds in people.
What you have my mind going tois I think you also introduced
me to family systems theory,michael, come on.
I mean failure of nerve, edwinFriedman and everything there.
Pete Steinke I think you had mereading Pete Steinke before I
(38:19):
even entered into my doctorateand had him as a professor.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
And the height of familysystems theory is differentiated
and connected at the same time.
Differentiated.
If we go too far that way,that's divorce, that's
disconnection, we obviouslydon't want to be there.
And on the other hand, it'semotional and relational fusion.
Where you start, I have to, andwe're intertwined and it's
(38:40):
really really messy.
I have to and we're intertwinedand it's really really messy.
Your identity is laid over thetop of me, but I still need to
be in connection and I need toknow my identity is fully
grounded in Jesus.
I think my favorite part andthis was a pastor friend, local
here pointed this out to mePhilippians 13.
My son actually wrote it on hisarm the other day before he
(39:02):
went and ran a race.
He was running the 400 andeverything.
And, son, I go, do you knowwhat?
Do you know what Philippians4.13?
Dad, I know what Philippians4.13 is.
I can do all things.
You're going to give mestrength, right.
And then I because this is mypastor friend had pointed out to
me Do you know what the versethat comes right after that is?
And yet it was kind of you toshare in my suffering.
So you see Paul saying I am, Ican do it Like, the Holy Spirit
(39:22):
lives within me, I am enough,I'm a somebody right, I'm
baptized and then at the verysame time, but there's no way I
can possibly do this alone.
You are with me in my sufferingand maintaining differentiation
and connection that looksdifferent based on the
personality, the lifeexperiences, the emotional needs
of the other person, and that'swhy curiosity, especially for
(39:44):
first chair leaders, is so, soimportant, because it's going to
take time to put that $5 intothe bank or just the right
amount of water into thatrelationship.
Anything to add there as itrelates to family systems,
michael.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
So to be able to say to someone I'm not sure how to
love you right now, Could youteach me?
And so, instead of guessing tolove you right now, Could you
teach me?
And so, instead of guessing,just ask.
And if it covers the three H'sthe three H's is so critical
Honor, honor, honor.
Does it show honor to God, Doesit show honor to them, Does it
show honor to you?
If that request rests in thosethree things, go for it.
(40:18):
Do it Ask people, tell me thebest way I can love you right
now.
And if I can't do it, then I'mgoing to say I don't know how to
do that, but I'm willing tolearn.
And that power again ofvulnerability, of repentance, of
saying I have to have theanswer to everything right now,
no, I live in the one who is theanswer.
And so he says let me love youand the rest is going to take
(40:41):
care of itself.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Yeah, Amen, hey, this has been so good I got.
I got just a few more minutes,but I could talk to you for a
long period of time and I knowour listeners have been super,
super blessed.
You've you've prioritizedhealthy habits over the years
and you also pass that along tome.
I mean, some of my rotationsright now are listening to, like
(41:05):
the Model Health Show.
He's one Sean Stevenson hasthese amazing guests on, and his
most recent episode that Ilistened to, even this morning
for about 15 minutes, was onaging and building more muscle
lean muscle as we continue toget older.
That's way more important.
By just a little side note,let's stop talking about weight
loss.
Let's start talking aboutmuscle gain, especially as we
(41:28):
continue to get older.
That's way more important.
By just a little side note,let's stop talking about weight
loss.
Let's start talking aboutmuscle gain, especially as we
age.
And so, yeah, bingo, we've gotto move mass, whether it's your
body weight or some kind ofother weight.
You were put on planet Earth tomove.
My goal is to move somethingevery single day.
I want to sweat every singleday.
I want sweat every single day.
I wanna get enough water in mybody that the whole system's
working appropriately, because Iknow that in my day are going
(41:49):
to come stressful situations andI know and science has backed
it up that I'm gonna handlestress better if I've taken care
of the temple of the HolySpirit first hour of the day.
Own the morning, own the day.
So anything you prioritize.
Obviously pickleball, I golf,there's some other kind of
recreational relational thingsthat I have in my world, but
talk about healthy habits,michael.
Speaker 3 (42:10):
So every day my nose is on the front door of the
church I'm sorry at the gym at 4am yeah, wow, that gym opens at
4 am.
I'm generally the one holdingthe door for people coming in
and then I get in the pool and Iswim for an hour to an hour and
20 minutes.
I have bone conduction headsets, so I spend the first part of
my swim quiet and I imagine thatI'm swimming in the waters of
(42:34):
my baptism.
I'm going to start this daywith the grace of God and then
I'm going to put on somescripture.
I'm going to listen to the sameseven chapters of scripture a
day for a week so I can begin tofunctionally memorize it.
And then by the day five mymind's going everywhere, but
then I'm going to hear somethingin it.
It's going to draw me back.
(42:54):
Then I'll listen to a podcast,and I'll listen to a number of
different podcasts and then myswim is pretty much done by that
point.
But I've started my dayrefreshed, ready to go.
I'm back to the office by 5.30.
And generally my day is done by3.
(43:14):
And I'm out playing pickleball,I'm loving on the neighbors
with my wife.
I'm just that rhythm.
And so the importance ofhydration and the importance of
oxygenation.
Americans really suck atbreathing and drinking water.
Speaker 2 (43:27):
That's true.
That seems so simple.
How can you suck at breathing?
It seems pretty natural.
So say more about why we're notbreathing.
Well, say more there.
Speaker 3 (43:35):
So when you get into conflict, you stop breathing.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
That's it.
Speaker 3 (43:39):
Fight, flight or freeze right.
So when you're caught up intothat, you stop breathing and so
just learning how to take a deepbreath.
And then, second of all, torecognize that God is interested
in you, is not interested inyou being happy, he's really
interested in you being content.
And when you're content andyou're just saying God, I don't
(44:02):
have to be perfect today, Idon't have to have all my stuff
together today, but I am clearlyworking in my life on four
things on a regular basis 1% ata time physical, emotional,
spiritual, familial 1% goals.
So if I walk into a room andthe room looks good but there's
(44:22):
a piece of trash on the floor, Ipick it up.
Why?
Because now the room's 1%better.
And if you can get something tochange by 10%, if you change
your muscle mass by 10%, yourbody becomes this incredible
roaring fire.
It's amazing.
So you never get to 100%, but,man, if you're at 1% on a
(44:46):
regular basis, your life changesdramatically and it's just
doing the things that God hasmade as obvious for us Exercise,
breathing, intimacy,relationship, encouragement just
1% of the time.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
That's so good.
You're bringing out the coachin me.
I coach high school footballand we use the same.
It's not about the destination,it's about the process, and the
process is small, smallincremental deposits as and this
is for spiritual as we grow upinto Jesus, who is the head, as
I think of you know muscle, etcetera, the church generally.
(45:21):
Well, what's the metaphor thatthe apostle Paul uses?
It's the body right and is ourbody atrophying?
Are we aging?
Are we and even like a localchurch you can look at the
metaphor there or are we?
Are we growing up?
And and we're lovinglychallenging one another?
We're a family, we're growingup through difficult
(45:41):
conversations.
This entire conversation hasbeen the let's, let's all grow
up together.
My growth is going to look alittle bit different than your
growth, but because my gifts area little bit different than
your gifts, but, man, I'mgrowing and it's fun.
Join the journey right.
Say more there.
Speaker 3 (45:57):
I'm going to take this down a little bit of a
different road, and this is aPeter Scazzaro.
I'm a big Peter Scazzaro fan.
One cannot be spirituallymature and emotionally immature
at the same time, and thegreatest challenges of our
church today and I believe thisis that we are a sea of
one-year-old baby Christians.
So you can be in a church for60 years and still be a baby
(46:20):
Christian of one year old,longing for milk rather instead
of meat, and so the great taskbefore is to be highly
invitational but highlychallenging.
We're going to invite you intosomething amazing and it's going
to rock you to the core right.
I know somebody once said youknow, I thought when I became a
Christian it meant more thanwriting a check and sitting in a
(46:41):
pew.
What that whole understandingI'm being surrounded by and I'm
surrounding people to help themto grow up into him.
Who is the head?
So when the apostle, when Jesus, said you must be perfect, as
your father in heaven is perfectthe word there for perfect is
mature he wants us to matureemotionally.
(47:01):
He wants us to maturespiritually, to grow up, and too
often the church is a placewhere people are given a green
light to be five-year-oldsfoolishly fighting people
instead of love and joy andpeace and patience and kindness
and goodness, gentleness andfaithfulness.
(47:22):
That's what God says.
This is what happens when yougrow up into me, so good.
Speaker 2 (47:28):
I have spoken a lot over the years on this podcast
about honestly addressing areasof growth in our individual
churches and in our church body,and there are certain issues
that I can't even publicly talkabout anymore.
Yeah, and that's unfortunate,and I've said I'm sorry if I've
(47:49):
been too frank, but I'm hopefulthat the right people in the
right rooms can honestly haveconversation that leads toward
growth heart, body, mind, spiritfor the quantity and quality of
every person, from pastors tojust the everyday plumber to see
their life is on mission.
(48:10):
That's the one biggest thingthat you've taught me and if
you're going into mission thisis what Jesus invited the
disciples into the mission isgoing to get messy and I'm
calling, I'm going to be withyou.
There, through every Jesus isthe high invitation Come, follow
me.
Oh, and then go learn what it'slike to die.
That doesn't sound like it'slow challenge.
Jesus gives the greatestchallenge of all time.
(48:32):
You're going to be my witnessesMartireo, jerusalem, judea,
samaria, to the ends of theearth.
And sometimes I feel like youknow I don't know that the LCMS
in general is creating the spacefor conversations of high
invitation and hospitality, allof our churches being places
where everybody can meet andfollow Jesus here.
(48:52):
And man, I'm inviting you upinto this, and meaning up into
this means having conversationsabout our functional and
dysfunctional emotions.
Functional and dysfunctionalemotions and I think, as German
Lutherans maybe stoic andpassive we have more growth, we
have more growth room there.
(49:13):
And I feel like final point, Ifeel like there are so many
precious saints in all of ourpews and chairs that are waiting
for pastors and leaders tonotice them, love them and call
them to something more in theirrespective vocations.
And yeah, I want to be a partof that, you want to be a part
of that, and our congregationsare places that are like this is
what we're living.
It's high challenge, highinvitation, and I just honestly
(49:36):
want all of the congregations inthe Lutheran Church Missouri
Synod to experience how fun thisis.
Michael Thoughts there.
Speaker 3 (49:42):
Model the behavior you want to see.
Don't wait for other people toget it.
Just do it.
Don't worry about what otherpeople are doing.
God will put whoever in theirpath with law or gospel.
In the meantime, do the workthat God has put in front of you
.
Recognize that the goal is notto get people to come here a
paid professional.
(50:02):
The goal is to get someone whohas been touched by the grace of
Jesus that you're going to bein their life.
Can I finish with a fun storytoday?
Speaker 2 (50:11):
Let's go.
Speaker 3 (50:12):
I go to a pretty rough barbershop.
I know that sounds funny, butit's a rough barbershop and they
call me preacher and whatever.
Speaker 2 (50:20):
You're in Lincoln.
Is there a rough part ofLincoln?
Speaker 3 (50:22):
Oh, yeah, oh yeah, oh man, there's a, there's a hood
where there's a traffic lightthat doesn't work.
Speaker 2 (50:28):
I'm just saying it's tough, no but it's tough on the
streets in Lincoln.
Speaker 3 (50:31):
Anyway, go ahead Actually it's more than you
realize, but it's a great cityand a great place.
Speaker 2 (50:36):
Love it, love it.
Speaker 3 (50:37):
Anyway, at this barbershop, so that the F word
is flying around all over theplace.
And I'm there getting my haircut by my favorite barber, cam
he's a great guy and somebodyleans over and goes, prancher,
can you say the F word?
And I open my eyes and go yeah,yeah, I can say the F word.
And he goes and the whole roomgets quiet and another barber
(51:00):
goes over.
Would you say it now out loud?
I said so.
You want me to use the F wordright now, in public, completely
silent.
I go okay, and people lean in sodang funny.
And I go forgiven.
That's what every single one ofyou is forgiven.
(51:21):
You may think the world is alleffed up, but God believes that
there's more than enoughforgiveness, has delivered to
you more than enough forgivenessyou could ever imagine.
I didn't think about that.
It's just saying being in aplace and a space and God doing
something, and that's what theHoly Spirit does.
He'll give you the words, he'llgive you what needs to be done.
In the meantime, lean in, getyour hair cut in kind of rough
(51:44):
places and love the person Godputs in front of you and be
amazed.
Speaker 2 (51:49):
This has been one of my.
I get to talk with so manypeople, so much to learn and top
five podcasts.
Man, I've ever been a part ofso many emotions.
My cup overflows and I amfilled with joy heading into
Thursday, friday and Saturdayand Sunday of this most holy of
weeks.
Reverend Dr Michael Echocamp,if people want to connect with
you and just pray for you, howcan they do so?
Speaker 3 (52:10):
Yeah, just reach out to me at my email at
mechocampatchristlincolnorg.
Speaker 2 (52:16):
Praying for you and the mission of God's people
there at Christ.
And yeah, jesus is.
We're Christ Greenfield, christLincoln, all these amazing
Lutheran churches trying toadvance the cause of Christ in
the hood of.
We got a hood in Gilbert too,michael.
It gets rough.
We actually had some boys it'snot a great story the Gilbert
(52:38):
goons.
They were called Some boys withfamilies with too much money
and disconnected parents andthey went on like a rage rampage
about a year ago or so, andthat's in the newspapers from
time to time.
So, gilbert, gilbert's a roughspot too, but we all, we all
need Jesus and Jesus is so inlove with you, michael, and
thank you for passing that loveon to me and to your
(53:00):
congregation and to so many, somany leaders.
This is lead time.
Please like, subscribe, commentwherever it is you take in
these, and this was anencouraging conversation, these
encouraging conversations, andwe promise to continue to invite
wonderful men and women filledwith the Holy Spirit into Jesus
centered conversations into thefuture.
It's a good day.
Go and make it a great day.
Thanks so much, michael.
Love you brother.
Speaker 3 (53:21):
Love you back, my friend.
Speaker 1 (53:22):
You Good day.
Go and make it a great day.
Thanks so much, michael.
Love you, brother.
Love you back, my friend.
You've been listening to LeadTime, a podcast of the Unite
Leadership Collective.
The ULC's mission is tocollaborate with the local
church to discover, develop anddeploy leaders through biblical
Lutheran doctrine and innovativemethods To partner with us in
this gospel message.
Subscribe to our channel, thengo to theuniteleadershiporg to
create your free login forexclusive material and resources
(53:45):
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.
Thanks for listening and staytuned for next week's episode.
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