Is the Term "Servant Leadership" Worth Using in the LCMS?

Joe Willmann shares his journey from wrestling coach to Lutheran Church Extension Fund leader, revealing how his perspective on leadership transformed from rigid systems to recognizing individual gifts and abilities. He explains that excellence should replace perfection as our aim in life and ministry, highlighting the difference between these mindsets.

• Moving beyond perfectionism to excellence creates space for growth while maintaining high standards
• The concept of "tending and keeping" provides a biblical framework for understanding our vocations
• True leadership flows naturally from being deep followers of Jesus rather than adopting leadership techniques
• The three greatest needs in churches today: embracing biblical stewardship, aiming for excellence, and letting non-essential things evolve
• Key behaviors for Christian leaders: developing winsome witness, adopting a posture of reception rather than critique, and loving difficult people
• LCEF partners with congregations and districts to start, sustain, and strengthen ministries through financial and strategic partnerships
• Changing a 30-year men's Bible study time resulted in attendance growing from 12 to 40-50 men

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is Lead Time.

Speaker 2 (00:03):
Welcome to Lead Time, tim Allman, here with Jack
Kauberg.
Pray, the joy of Jesus is withyou today.
We're recording this duringHoly Week it's Monday, thursday
here, probably released in theEaster season at some point and
I pray that the awe and wonderof resurrection power, the
resurrection hope, is yourstoday, leading you up to learn

(00:24):
and to love and to find the joywhich is Jesus.
Jack, you loving life, dude,are you?
Seems like we've been talking alot about your allergies, jack,
for multiple years, multipleyears allergies.
So are you doing all right?

Speaker 3 (00:39):
Maybe we need a special lead time episode just
about that.

Speaker 2 (00:44):
Oh man.
Anyway, you look good, yousound good.
Today, our guest is Joe Willman.
He is a district vice presidentfor Lutheran Church Extension
Fund in the Northern IllinoisDistrict.
He's the team lead for eightother districts.
He was blessed to serve at CPHfor six years prior to LCF.
He completed his undergrad atBall State University.
As a master's degree atConcordia University, ann Arbor,

(01:06):
he was colloquized into theteaching office of the LCMS in
2017 and is all but dissertationon a doctorate of business
administration at ConcordiaUniversity, chicago.
That's cool.
Maybe end up talking about thata bit, what you're writing.
He writes a short devotionalnewsletter.
He hosts a podcast on Substack.
You can find that atlcefnidsubstackcom.

(01:29):
He is married to Nicole andthey have two great kids, ava
and Carter.
He serves as the president ofhis governing board at his
congregation, st John's Lutheranin Wheaton, illinois.
Joe, how are you doing, manLoving life?

Speaker 4 (01:40):
It's a lovely day.
I can't believe that Lent isalmost over.

Speaker 2 (01:43):
No, yeah, no, it goes so fast.
What's good right now, joe,just as you look around at the
world, your work, your life,your family.
Let's hunt the good stuff as weget going, joe.

Speaker 4 (01:52):
My funny thing, my wife, right after the day before
Christmas break for the kids,my son's second grade teacher
quit all of a sudden.
And my wife had stayed at homefor 12 years.
And and my wife had stayed athome for 12 years and she was a
second grade teacher before thatand she was asked to come fill
in.
And I would tell you what isgood is she's been doing that
now since going back into thenew year.
So for us, 12 years of her kindof leading everything and us

(02:15):
not having to juggle things asmuch as we are now.
But the goodness of yesterday,just things that happened during
the day, and if she wasn'tthere would have not been as
great for my son, but yet it wasgreat.
And the Lord, even through thestress of all of the things that
we go through, he's good andgracious.
So that's a that's a good thinggoing.

Speaker 2 (02:30):
That's so good.
How old are Ava and Carter?

Speaker 4 (02:32):
So my daughter's in sixth grade.
She's 12 and my son is insecond grade.

Speaker 2 (02:35):
He's eight Dude.
Enjoy, enjoy every day.
Did you?
Did you play sports at allgrowing up?
I'm just curious, oh yeah.

Speaker 4 (02:42):
Wrestling was my life , so I yeah yeah, so I wrestled
for a decade and then I coachedfor a decades.
Um, like, I was a headwrestling coach at a big high
school in Northern Indianabefore I made my transition into
church work.
That was kind of my uh, a weirdlife of of going down that
route.

Speaker 2 (02:57):
But uh, yeah, how has coaching shaped your
professional?

Speaker 4 (03:01):
career.
Goodness, Uh, I made a ton ofmistakes in coaching.
Recognizing where our identityis placed is really, really
important.
If you would have asked me whenI was coaching what you know,
that would have been my life.
That was the thing.
We're going to go win a statechampionship as a team, you know
, I mean we kicked butt, don'tget me wrong, but it was like
you know we're going to go dothis, but yet my identity wasn't
found in Christ, like it shouldhave been.

(03:22):
Not that you know, I believelike I've been in the LCMS since
I was in third grade, you know,like there's all of that, but
it was wrong.
And so now recognizing, when Iwork with people, that I can't
turn everybody into me, that'sprobably what I tried to do when
I was coaching, rather thanhelping them find their own
unique, individual abilities.
Like this is the one way to doit.
This is the system that's goingto function just perfectly and

(03:43):
that's how we're going to win,Rather looking back and thinking
.
You know, lots of people havelots of different gifts and let
me help you grow in thosedifferent gifts.

Speaker 2 (03:51):
That's probably my biggest today, as you know what
10 years now post ever steppingon a wrestling mat to today yeah
, yeah, I'm coaching footballand amping up for our fall
football season and our coacheskind of coming together to say
we're more committed now to theprocess than the destination and
I think that applies in so manyto team leadership Like it's

(04:15):
not about winning necessarily.
Unless you define winning asfinding joy in the process every
single day, then you're thatthat is ultimately winning.
And trying to figure out foreach there's a lot of kind of
metaphors that are amplified, Ithink, in the body of Christ is
trying to find what joy in theprocess looks like for each
student athlete with theirvarious levels of gifting.

(04:36):
And at the end of the year thegreatest thing I can hear
because I heard it a number oftimes last year is the freshman
is a freshman, young boy who'sstill developing, he's not
remarkably athletic yet, but hecomes up and says thanks for
loving and encouraging me, coach, and seeing me and and, yeah,
caring for me and challenging methis year you know they may not

(04:58):
say it like exactly like thatThanks, thanks, coach, you know,
for being with me and you'relike, what did I do?
Like you, you weren't on thefield a whole lot, but he
enjoyed.
He enjoyed the process.
Anything more to say there?
Joe?

Speaker 4 (05:09):
I think the process is developing young people.
When it comes to coaching, it'snot about whether we win the
state title or not.
It's, you know, now on thisside, you know 10 or 15 years
past, some of these kidsgraduating high school.
I get to look back and see likeyou're a great dad, like you,
your kids are awesome, like youwere doing well, and whatever
small part I had to play in that, you know, I can rejoice in

(05:32):
that and that should be the likewe want to.
We want to make great humans.
That's it, like everything thatwe do is about making great
humans.

Speaker 2 (05:38):
Jack, anything to apply as it relates to the
church and our leadership day in, day out.
Any thoughts there regardingthe process?

Speaker 3 (05:44):
Well, yeah, I mean I would say that the entirety of
life in a church staff is a lifeof mentoring and apprenticing
people right, and that's truewithin our leadership structure,
within our staff, that's truein small group networks that we
set up, that's true in everytype of serving opportunity that
we bring people together in.
That is the ideal that we wantto set up and that is how we

(06:06):
want to empower people withinthe church.
We want to empower people todisciple each other Right, and
that means, by nature, thatwe'll go into seasons of
mentoring and apprenticeshipwith each other, people that we
trust.
There's been a lot of reallypowerful, wise lay leaders that
have mentored me as I'vedeveloped into this role.
Tim, you've been a mentor to mein many ways, and I think the

(06:29):
church does that really, reallywell, and I think that churches
thrive when they lean into thatand actually give permission to
that and bless that andencourage that, yeah, perfect is
the enemy of process.

Speaker 2 (06:41):
I've been thinking about how consistent perfect
gets used in our world and it'sgot to be absolutely perfect.
You look perfect or like youdid that thing perfect, and that
keeps a lot of people from likestepping out to the edge to
potentially do something that'snot perfect, which always
through suffering, you know,trial error to a degree, within

(07:02):
appropriate boundaries.
That's how we grow.
Like muscles grow, in a certainway You've got to stretch them.
They're not, they're notfeeling perfect as they're being
developed Right.
So anything more to say aboutperfect and process, joe.

Speaker 4 (07:15):
People hit what we aim at, and so, rather than
saying perfect, we should aim atexcellence.
That's the thing of that.
And recognizing in ourexcellence that we aim at that,
we're never going to get it ahundred percent right.
But excellence is like, and ifwe aim at excellence and then we
slightly miss the target onexcellence, well we're still
pretty great.
So like, so, like.
That's good.

(07:35):
So don't be afraid to fail, andyou know, and don't be afraid
to stretch and to learn.
And then I think what you alsosaid with your staff is there's
people to learn from all thetime.
Jack, you talked about how Tim'smentored you.
I'm sure you have lots ofpeople that have mentored you in
your life.
I think about when I was at CPHI know people probably only
know Paul McCain from his likeonline persona of Paul McCain
back in the day but I thinkabout Paul as a mentor to me, as

(07:59):
like a dad and a pastor and aboss and a friend all wrapped up
into one.
And so many of these mentorsthat I've had in my life I've
gotten to learn from them intheir season time, not in their
like, where I am, you know, 40years old, probably have way too
much confidence in myself rightnow and it keeps going down,
but towards the end of thingsthat they shape and mold you and
trust you to go do those things.

(08:20):
It's when somebody like thatlooks at you and trusts you to
go do that and they know thatyou're going to do it with
excellence, that's awesome andwhen you missed up, it's great.

Speaker 3 (08:29):
It's fine.
Well, joe, that's kind of apowerful, I think, reframing of
things.
I think of perfection as adestination and excellence as a
journey, as a kind of a growthmindset that we enter into.
And so I hope that we're neverholding people to a standard of
perfection, but that we areholding people to a standard of

(08:49):
excellence which says that, hey,you may be doing something
really really well right now,but even in this doing really
really well right now, there'san opportunity for you to take
one more step in your growth andyou have to have a destination
that you're pushing for to dothat.
But still, really, it's aboutthat journey of growth, the

(09:10):
willingness to take that step ofdoing one more thing, to
challenge yourself Right.
And I think, just as I'mthinking through this right now,
there may be people that aredoing something really really
well right now, but andsometimes we get into this
complacency mindset we say,because we're doing this really
really well, we need to stopchallenging ourselves.
We've arrived.

Speaker 4 (09:25):
And I say, once we've hit that arrived mentality,
then we've lost our excellenceyeah, anything there we're never
going to arrive I mean we'llarrive when jesus comes back and
we're all coming here it's likeI see us.
I hope I'm outside when thathappens so I don't fly through
the roof, but you know likeit'll be.
Uh, that that's when we arrive.
You know the rest of it.
We just keep pressing forwardand serving as best as we can

(09:47):
well, and I don't know if we'lleven arrive.

Speaker 2 (09:48):
I mean, we will arrive at perfection with god,
self, others and the rest ofcreation, even even the journey
of living as fully human in thegifts that God I think still on
that last day uniquely give tous and the work that he uniquely
gives to us.
It will be a never endingjourney of taking one hill and
another hill and another hill,of increasing, never ending

(10:09):
growth with God and others.
It's going to be spectacular,so we just get.
We get to live in thatresurrection reality right now
and recognize there's going tobe spectacular.
So we just get.
We get to live in thatresurrection reality right now
and recognize there's going tobe a peak.
And then there's going to beanother peak and the greatest
peak.
Well, you don't even know,because you keep running with
perseverance, keeping your eyesfixed on Jesus, the author and
perfecter of your faith.
It's a continual move.
We do not stop, but ourperspective changes about what

(10:33):
is the appropriate peak, right.
That's why wise mentors at theend and Jack, you've been a wise
mentor for me in so many,because that's why wise mentors
help you say you're looking atthis peak, son or daughter, I
think you could reframe.
There's another peak that'sright over here.
A major part of the peak thatwe're trying to highlight in our
leadership podcast is the peakis not just doing, it's

(10:54):
developing and inviting othersto find.
The next peak of development,that's how Jesus, that's why
Jesus is the greatest leader ofall time is he kept that future
vision in front of his apostlesthat he would be with them.
But greater things, greaterpeaks you would accomplish.
It's not gonna be perfect, it'sgonna be very messy, people are
gonna hate you, it's gonna behard and many, if not most, of

(11:14):
you are going to die.
But it's the greatest adventureof all time, this journey
toward becoming more and morelike Jesus, carrying his message
out into a dark and dying world.
So let's get into your storyjust a little bit, joe.
You were at CPH.
What were you up to at CPH forthose six years?
Tell that story.

Speaker 4 (11:31):
Yeah, I was the senior instructional designer
there so we built a platformthat was called CPH Faith
Courses and so I think you knowin in our trying to branch out
into that world I kind of ranalmost all of that, from the
editing to the recording to theposting to the managing, the
backend purchasing of all ofthat platform.
So I was there during that time.

(11:51):
My counterpart, lisa Clark, wasin charge of like print
curriculum and things like that.
So it was an amazing, amazingtime.
It was lovely and I was apublic school teacher that then,
when my wife said I want tostay at home when we have babies
, I found myself in a Catholicschool system, like the number
two of a Catholic school system.
At that point in time, and whenyou grow up as a public educator
, you probably don't have thebest views of parochial

(12:14):
education.
It's just kind of it's a partof the, it's a part of the
journey when you're there andwithin like three days of being
at the at the Catholic schools,everything was stopped.
Like all of my misconceptionswere stomped on, and then
probably two weeks later it waslike, well, I don't probably
want to do this here forever.
You know, we do have a greatLutheran education system.
So I started my master's at AnnArbor and somehow out of a whim

(12:35):
which is a crazier story of howI ended up at CPH but that's
way too long for our podcasttoday but ended up at CPH and it
was the best for us as a familyand for me, just an amazing six
years.
St Louis is a great place foryoung families.
It is definitely a Lutheranbubble when you're there, but it
is.
You know, it was great.
And I ended up at LCEF becausemy wife and I, when we went to

(12:56):
St Louis, we agreeda five-yearmark is going to be kind of our
check-in point.
You know, we moved five hoursaway from both of our families.
This is going to be our check-inpoint of are we going to be
here forever?
There were some things thathappened to CPH, and then COVID
was in the middle of all of thatand I had met Bart Day, who's
our CEO Funny enough, he's arunning buddy of mine and so,

(13:17):
yeah, yeah, yeah, we were trailrunners and so I saw the
position that was opened up inNorthern Illinois.
It's where my wife grew up, andas a kid from Indiana, the
thought of living in Illinoiswas probably like that.
That seemed like that's the oneplace I will never go.
But God laughed and ended uphere, and so I went down a path
of that here.
And so I went down a path ofthat.
God put a lot of things inplace and I had started my

(13:38):
doctorate of businessadministration so that's how an
educator ends up as kind of afinance guy in a district and
put that in place and ended uphere, and it's been a blessing
ever since.

Speaker 2 (13:45):
What are you so good at?
What are you studying for yourdissertation?
What are you writing on?

Speaker 4 (13:49):
Well.
So I got 100 pages into mydissertation and I stopped
believing in it, so I'mcompletely rewriting it now.
That was a really hard thing.
Part of my personality is, if Istop, you know, I could have
just pressed forward andfinished what I had, and I don't
.
I truthfully don't believe inthat.
I actually think it's.
Yeah, anyhow, my new one I'mlooking at I'm using the marks

(14:09):
of the Acts 2 church to evaluatechurches that have above
average giving, and so that'skind of what I'm doing right now
.
I've got to get through.
So most of my chapters one andthree, like my introduction, and
the methodology stays the same,but I've got to really like I'm
hammering on my lit reviewright now.
Of that, I mean, it's reallydepressing when you have a lit
review like 90% done and thenyou got to start over in a

(14:32):
different direction, but it'smuch more fulfilling, yeah, so,
so that that's what it is.
My previous one I was usingservant leadership to evaluate
how you connect people thataren't connected to your mission
with your mission.
So, like at CPH, there's lotsof non, non Lutherans that work
at CPH, all of our entities.
I'm sure at Christ Greenfieldthere's probably people that
teach in the school and things,so I was using that.
I probably should be careful insaying this.

(14:53):
I don't know that I believe inservant leadership as a model
anymore, after having studied itforever and a day.

Speaker 3 (14:59):
I'm actually curious to hear about that.
Why don't you tell us a littlebit about that?
That's a super fascinatingassertion.

Speaker 4 (15:07):
So I don't prick consciences.
When people talk about servantleadership they mean it really
really well and I think I wouldbelieve in what they mean by
servant leadership.
But as an academic study, howfar it's gone down If you look
at the history of this.
Ceo of AT&T, robert Greenleaf,came up with this.
It was a tautology the servantleader is servant first.
And you start going down all ofthe research into the different

(15:29):
tenets of servant leadershipand how many places, and it
seems like Jesus was kind ofplaced into that world.
It didn't come out of like ateaching of scripture, it was
just a like ramrodded in, and soas I kept studying this, I was
like man.
I feel like Jesus calls us tobe followers of him, and so when
we follow Jesus, we will be aleader in the fact that the

(15:51):
decisions that we make will becompletely filled with what
Jesus would have us do.
And so it's more so.
Probably on my end, a critiqueof I think it's more important
to focus on the leaders beingdeeply, deep followers of Jesus,
deep disciples that stay on.
As the didache would say,there's two ways the way of life
and the way of death, and thatway of life is walking after

(16:12):
Jesus, and so I probablystruggled quite a bit.
Once I got through thatliterature review and I sat
there and stared at it I waslike I don't know that this is
actually what the church shouldbe using.
I think it's more fruitful ifwe went the follower route
rather than the servant leaderroute.
That would be kind of my slightcritique of it, but again, I
would never plant my flag inbeing like I'm going to present

(16:35):
at this conference about howservant leader is awful and none
of you should ever use thisagain.
Like that's not what I'm saying, but it's more a critique of.
I think you get more benefitfocusing on the follower side.

Speaker 2 (16:46):
Cool.
How does the follower paradigmof leadership interact and it's
okay if you don't know thisinteract with adaptive
leadership models?
We've like Vanessa Seifert,we've had her on and, yeah, do
you know much about adaptiveleadership models?

Speaker 4 (17:03):
So adaptive, was not one of the ones that I studied.
Well, I mean, I've studied itslightly, but not enough to like
in my dissertation.
It wasn't one that I said.
This won't fit my research ofthat, so I can't speak as
authoritatively on that.
But what I can tell you, tim, isthat a follower of Jesus, as he
sits back and thinks aboutseeing and saying and doing as
Jesus sees and says and does, inthat all of those other

(17:25):
decisions, you're going to treateverybody differently in the
fact of I'm going to treat youand lead you the way that Jesus
would have me.
This probably goes more towardsmy I thought of in the garden.
God gave Adam and Eve two tasksto tend and to keep to avod and
shamar, and so those are theexact same two tasks that were
given to the Levitical priestswhen it came to the tabernacle.

(17:47):
And so for us as royal priests,if we look at everything in
terms of tending and keeping,all that we do and that's how we
follow Jesus of tending andkeeping, then that produces the
fruit at the end of the day,that every decision that I make,
if I do it through that lensand as I'm leading somebody and
helping build them up and goingthat route, I'm going to apply
the gospel to them in the waythat Jesus would have.

Speaker 2 (18:09):
Yeah Well, what you're talking about is a
biblical understanding ofstewardship, Joe and vocation.
That's just stewardship, isn't?

Speaker 3 (18:16):
it.

Speaker 2 (18:16):
Yeah.
And keeping all that God hasgiven to me in all of my various
vocations, because it's notmine, it's his Say more about
that interconnection betweenstewardship and tending and
keeping.

Speaker 4 (18:27):
If I pull on that just a little bit, tim and I
want to be very careful sayingthis because I know some people
make this assertion that arealso LCMS guys that are so it'd
be good.
What if the only vocation wehave in life is that of steward?
What if everything that we haveflows out of that?
So, for instance, I'm a husbandand how I live out that
vocation as husband is tendingand keeping my relationship with
my wife, and all that is good.

(18:48):
If I, you know, I'm a dad, so Itend and keep my relationship
with my kids.
I also tend and keep what theyhave because God has given me to
do that.
As a member of a church, youknow, I tend and keep my giving.
I tend and keep my relationshipat church and by tending and
keeping my giving I care for mypastors and their families and
my parish administrator and allof the other people, the

(19:08):
preschool teachers and all ofthat at church.
And if we look at thingsthrough our vocations, through
that lens of stewardship,everything is legitimately
tending and keeping.
Like all that we do is that,and when and when you do that
while you're walking after Jesus, it seems to work out a whole
lot better.

Speaker 3 (19:24):
So then, our various vocations, whether we're in
leadership roles, or inadministrative roles, or
professional you know roles, ormanufacturing roles, whatever
that might be, we're tending andkeeping within that role, and
that's our vocation.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 (19:38):
Yeah, it's lived out.
I mean, I there could be.
It's maybe the maybe a betterway is this is the conceptual
framework to understand yourvocations, right?
Yeah, how do you tend and keepin this role that you've been
placed in, right?
So, for me, as a team lead, howdo I?
I've got eight districtpresidents that I have a
relationship with and I've gotmy my team of what is it?
Five other DVPs that servethose eight districts.

(19:59):
And, and how do I tend all ofthose relationships?
Everybody's a little bitdifferent in the way that they
receive information.
So how do, how do I respond todifferent things?
It's, you know, some people, ifthey call, I know if I don't
answer this, even if it knocksme off of what I'm doing right
now, it will cause more stressfor them.
Like, the long-termramification of me not answering

(20:19):
the phone right now will bemore stressful than if I just
pause what I'm doing and takecare of this Now, whereas if
another member of my team calls,it's okay because he knows that
I'm going to get back to himonce I'm done with the next
thing and it's going to be okay.
So those are the kinds of thingsof tending and keeping those
relationships, of what is bestfor them, and that because God
has given me now to look overthem, so I need to take care of
them, because God always keepsour eyes focused out.

(20:41):
You know, his call to us isalways, always outward, to where
it is.
It's not necessarily lookingdown at myself or how do I, you
know, tend and keep myself?
That's probably one of theother things of in student
servant leadership.
One of the tenants of servantleadership is accountability,
and all of the accountabilityresearch in the last like 20
years is focused on how you keepyourself accountable and so,
like, the original definition ofaccountability is you have to

(21:03):
have somebody else to do that.
So that's again like neitherhere nor there, but that's a
unique thing of God always hasour eyes focused out towards the
other.
So, yeah, Amen.

Speaker 2 (21:12):
So let's get into the story of LCEF just a bit.
We've I've had BART's been on,but it's been a while.
I love your new brand, by theway, thanks.
Now do you have newer languagetoo?
That's kind of orienting,because when we kind of walk
through a brand modification, itwasn't just the look, it was
about the mission.
So talk about the currentmission and how you're building

(21:33):
on like the origin story missionof LCEF, joe, and how you're
building on like the originstory mission of LCEF, joe, yeah
.

Speaker 4 (21:42):
So let me start with the origins of LCEF first and
I'm doing that as I pull up ournew mission statement because I
haven't completely memorized ita hundred percent yet, because
it's only been a couple ofmonths since we had that.
So LCEF was created in 1978 ata synodical convention is how
LCEF was created.
Prior to that, all 35 districtsof Synod operated their own
extension funds.
So you're in the, you guys arein the PSD right, tyler Fewins

(22:04):
is you guys' guy, and so youguys are out there, and so you
would have had your own churchextension fund, the PSD church
extension fund, that point intime.
So you can imagine, at somepoint, if your district doesn't
have as many dollars on depositas another district and you've
got a big project that you can'tfund, you already had to start
partnering with other districtsto make these things happen.
And so somebody on the back endthought you know, it would be a

(22:25):
whole lot better if we all justcame together and did that.
So currently now, today was1978.
So we're coming up on 50 yearshere in a few years, of LCEF
being around 31 of the 35districts of Synod are members
of LCEF and so we are an entityof Synod.
The bylaws of Synod and ourbylaws are all run by the
convention and there's all sortsof things of how that functions

(22:47):
.
But 31 of us are a part of LCEF.
It's probably easier to say thefour that aren't Michigan,
texas, the Central IllinoisDistrict and the Southern
District are still operatingtheir own CEFs.
We still partner with them indifferent ways.
We're friendly with everybody.
This isn't like somecompetition between all of us
with that.
And so the new mission of LCEFand our rebrand is the mission
of Lutheran Church ExtensionFund is to start, sustain and

(23:08):
strengthen LCMS ministriesthrough financial and strategic
partnerships.
And so we find ourselvesuniquely placed in the Synod to
be able to do some of those.
You know, some of thosedifferent things.
I saw your buddy, jim Stamped.
What a great guy.
God be praised that he's goingto get to enjoy retirement at
some point in time.
I would give him a hard timehim saying that.
You know he's the only entitythat has like a mandate from

(23:30):
Synod on things with thewellness thing, I was like we
all have that, you know.
I was like, hey, we got that.
I mean there's financialwellness, there's things that
we're all given to in that Igive him a hard time about that.
I, you know, loving like hey,love you, jim, good job, yeah,
yeah, I would tell Bart that heshould do that too.
But yeah.
And so.
So how LCEF operates foranybody listening that's like I
don't know who LCEF is ismembers of the Lutheran Church

(23:53):
Missouri, of congregations ofthe Lutheran Church Missouri
Synod.
The congregations and otherentities of Synod place dollars
on deposit with us in differentinvestment products that we have
and then we lend those dollarsout.
We do not buy dollars from theFed.
We don't do any of that.
All of the things that we doare done completely because we
have faithful investors that putdollars on deposit with us.
And so right now I think we'rejust over $2 billion in assets

(24:16):
and we have, I think, coming upon 1.7, I don't know exactly but
like 1.7 billion of that lentout right now to the
organizations and workers ofSenate.

Speaker 2 (24:25):
Yeah, no, it's, it's extraordinary.
I like the three S's start,sustain and strengthen.
That's a good job, bart, thatthat rings, rings well and and
team.
We put that together Easy-ishto remember.
Our permission statement at ourcongregation is pretty long.
It's taken a while.
We've memorized it, though,jack, and it is helpful to have

(24:45):
this kind of memorializedlanguage that in our leadership
rallies, you know, there's teamrallies 100 plus people on staff
, you know, and they're comingand we're walking through
mission, vision, values, allthat kind of stuff.
It's, it's not nothing, it'svery important, it's a very
important ritual for us.
So I'm just how is that kind oflanguage, the new mission or
the?
It's not new, it's just kind ofreframed, I guess at LCF.

(25:08):
How's that being kind of bakedinto your culture right now?

Speaker 4 (25:10):
I would say that in the last three years, that even,
but in the last three years,even though that wasn't our
mission over the last threeyears we've started, like our
real estate solutions team, withpeople with excess property you
guys in the Pacific Southwest,you actually have a person in
your district.
They're helping with all ofthose different kinds of things.
And our continued role ofpartnering with our districts

(25:30):
and making sure that, as we seethings out in the world and we
see opportunities to whetherit's relaunch or start or an
area that might you know, isunderserved, in that how we can
do that, how can we, as you knowthe relationship managers in
the district, because we're alsokind of unique in the fact that
we are deployed we have, I mean, all the districts that are a
part of LCEF, have a, have a DVPthere, and so we're able to

(25:51):
build relationships one-on-oneat the local level.
And so we're able to buildrelationships one-on-one at the
local level Because, I mean, thereality is we can all LCEF can
have ideas, the Synod can haveideas, districts can have good
ideas, but the reality iseverything we do in the world
takes hard work and it's goingto take the people at the local
level to do it, so we canconnect those people when we see
that.

Speaker 3 (26:10):
Joe, let me ask you a little bit.
I'm kind of curious to get yourtake on this.
When I think about the historyof LCEF, I think about the
efforts to do church planting,which is largely driven by the
local districts.
They take a responsibility forchurch planting and I know that
LCEF has been integral in that,in that property needs to be
acquired and buildings need tobe built and all that kind of

(26:32):
stuff.
I remember, peeling back theonion of the history of the
property that we're on right nowand from what I can gather, it
was initially purchased by thedistrict with financing from
LCEF, and then the whole processof planting a church was, you
know, getting a congregationhere that could take over the
financing of that property,right, so that was.

(26:52):
I guess that was a type ofmodel that was done.
I'm not hearing what is themodel now.
And when districts and LCEFthink about the initiative to
church planting, what is thephilosophy towards that?
A like, who's responsible forit?
And then, like, what is theresourcing strategy for that?

Speaker 4 (27:08):
I don't want to be wishy washy with my answer with
you, jack, but there's manyanswers to that.
So you know, like we walkalongside our districts, that if
they have identified a spot, wecan be there to help the
district finance if they don'thave the dollars to buy that, to
buy that and then bring ourministry solutions team in to
help strategic plan around allof that Mm-hmm.
But it doesn't just have to bethe district.

(27:30):
It could be anothercongregation that said, hey,
we've got this we want to plant,we found an area over there and
so let's partner with you tohelp make this a possibility,
things like that, utilizing theresources that they have.
We'll help with thosecongregations work on their
business plans around I don'twant to say business, but their
ministry plans how they're goingto make this flow.
Right, because we also have afiduciary responsibility to our

(27:51):
investors, right?
I mean, it's not just like ourinvestors are.
We put dollars on deposit andif you set them on fire, that's
great.

Speaker 3 (28:00):
You know that's not how they function.
Most churches have a businessoffice that pays the mortgage
right, so there's a model thatexists for funding right.

Speaker 4 (28:05):
I'm going to speak very generically right now
because I have something that'slike working in the very early
stages right now.
But imagine that you had achurch that was one of the
largest churches in Synod, likein the 90s, and now it's down to
a small handful of members,like when I say small, like less
than 10.
And you have anothercongregation in that.

(28:26):
But that area is super wealthy.
Not that it's super wealthy,there's just a lot of means.
In that area the property issuper valuable.
I mean we could just sell thatproperty and go redo things, and
maybe that's the wise decisionto do that.
Or you know, you have a churchright down the road that wants
to partner and replant andrelaunch in that location

(28:47):
because we don't want to loseour ministry foothold in that
spot.
And so we can walk alongsidethem, looking at other
congregations in the area,pulling everybody together and
say, how can we do this?
This is the model to make thishappen.
This is how we have a five-yeargo of this, because you know so
many people when they churchplant, if they haven't thought
about it, they're like, oh,we'll just make it year to year.
We really need to have, I mean,if you're going to call a pastor

(29:10):
in there.
We need a three to five yearplan that it's not just like,
hey, you're coming here and then12 months we're cutting you
loose.
That's not a good model ofthings.
So working with them on thatplan and then, if that causes
financing of renovating thatbuilding or doing those kinds of
things, and then systematicallybuilding out, if this, let's
say, we get a decade down theroad and this doesn't work, how

(29:31):
do we all exit from this?
You know from this at thatpoint in time and the legal
sides of that and the logisticalsides of that.
But then there's another modelof that too, where, like in
rural ministry, like, how do wepartner between these?
And you know, how do we plant,how do we acquire?
Those are the things that wethat's our day-to-day business
of walking alongside that stuff.

Speaker 2 (29:50):
So Lutheran Church Extension Fund is both Lutheran
Church Extension, bringingchurches together to extend the
kingdom of God, and then havinga funding arm to partner.
So that's kind of led you downthe path of leadership
development and partnering withchurches around.
Even you have an arm of theministry for kind of mission,
vision, value and long rangestrategic planning, those types

(30:11):
of things.
Folks may not be aware of thatwith LCEF.
So tell the leadershipdevelopment story of LCEF.

Speaker 4 (30:17):
Yeah, so on one side we have our ministry solutions
team that those are all ordainedpastors of the Synod.
That they come out and theyhelp your.
They ask what does God have forus now in this place?
And they help you build astrategic plan.
They also do what we callministry expansion campaigns or
capital campaigns, but they doreally well with that because I
mean, it does take dollars tomake many of these plans go,
things like that.
So they walk alongside that.

(30:38):
Lcef also recognized a few yearsago that we wanted to help our
folks and our church workersthat maybe needed to have some
more business skills.
That didn't that.
We would do that.
So we partnered with Concordia,wisconsin, and we have a cohort
that keeps going.
It's called Business Skills forChurch Leaders, and so they do
that.
We've actually had districtpresidents that have signed up

(30:59):
for that program and gonethrough that.
It's basically like gosh, Ithink is it a third of an MBA or
something like that, like itdoes that.
And then now we're gettingready to launch our newest one,
so it's called Called to Leadand we've got our first kind of
pilot group going through that.
It's a year long course I think.
They're monthly, I can'tremember exact six week courses
that comes out that you get somecollege credit at the end of
all of that, but they're focusedon the leadership side of all

(31:20):
of that.
I'm actually pretty fortunate Iget to teach the capstone
course of that one.
So so the very last course,faith-filled leadership, is that
Love that yeah.
So so that's kind of what we'redoing in that world.

Speaker 2 (31:31):
This has been great man.
We could talk to you for a lotlonger, but we're kind of down
the homestretch.
Last 10 minutes or so you get alandscape of all of the breadth
of all different types ofchurches suburban, urban, rural,
various contexts, various kindof church histories.
In the Midwest, you know,you've got a lot of churches
that have quite a history.

(31:52):
They've been around for over100 years and then there's some
church plants and everything inbetween.
So as you look kind of at thebroader story of the LCMS
congregations you serve what arethe top three kind of greatest
needs.

Speaker 4 (32:05):
Yeah, and can I let me expand that, tim, because I
think it's not just the synodthat needs this, but Christendom
in large.
Like, I always joke with people, you know people talk about,
you know they make the joke.
I'm a good Lutheran because Isit in the back of church.
Well, the Baptists sit in theback of church too, right?
So, like, all of these needsare literally all of
Christendom's needs for that.
So the first one that I wouldtell you is that people need to.

(32:28):
This goes along with this wholestewardship, that people should
recognize that they're nothingbut given to.
That's a big thing of likehaving that understanding.
That comes from one of yourformer sim profs, dr Norman
Nagel.
That's kind of his big line.
Right, you are nothing butgiven to.
There's probably a way in anAustralian accent that you could
say that, tim, that you'veheard it many times.

Speaker 2 (32:46):
Yeah, yeah, it's been a minute.
But yeah, dr Nagel, I doremember him talking a lot about
stewardship, to be sure.

Speaker 4 (32:51):
Yeah, yeah.
So that would be that andgrowing in that, growing in our
support of our congregations,growing in our understanding
that you know Jesus says pickbetween 10 and 100 percent and
go from there and then, like,grow towards that.
You know, if you're not thereit's not a finger wag, it's an
opportunity for you to grow insupporting and caring for people
.

Speaker 2 (33:18):
Hey, I used to think let's pause on stewardship just
for a second.
It's so important, pastors needto talk about it.
Preach biblical stewardship forsure.
Jesus talks about it an awfullot Early on.
You know, jesus doesn't mentionthe tithe and I think even in my
early years here at ChristGreenfield, as we started to
cast vision for getting rid ofour debt and also doing some
strategic things in partnershipwith LCEF, I made the statement
that Jesus doesn't talk aboutthe tithe.
So I think you could think,well, okay, wherever you are,
you know one, two, 3%, theaverage giver in our

(33:41):
congregation and even you've gotthe data average members
probably in the 2%, 1.5 to 2% ofgross or net income.
However, you want to look atthat and I think today I've
become more resolute that Jesus,as a good Jew, a rabbi, doomed
the tithe and then moved fromthe tithe.

(34:01):
So more of my teaching ismoving in that, even in like
with my kids at home 10, 10, 80,10, 10, 80, first to God, then
to savings, then to living right, I mean simple financial
principles.
But, yeah, any thoughts aboutJesus in the tithe and what he
says about your whole life beinggiven away as an offering.

Speaker 4 (34:18):
Jesus fulfilled the law so he would have tithed.
I mean that's not a you know.
I mean he would have done that.
You know we're free from thelaw, but that doesn't mean that
you know what does he tell therich young ruler Go sell all
that you have right and go dothis.
But again, if we've prickedanybody's conscience, if you
look back and you hear that, youhear that as a like, this is a
goal, like head towards this.
You know, like you've probablybought a house and you've got a

(34:41):
2.3% interest rate and if youwent to sell your house right
now it'd be more expensive ifyou downsized and you've
probably got two car paymentsand college debt and tuition,
like there's all of these thingsgoing on.
But work on a strategy ofgrowing towards that number,
because it cares for your people, it cares for your pastors, it
makes these places otherworldly.
So that is, you know, for me, Ithink that's really important

(35:03):
for all of Christendom.
And when you ask about thenumbers, there's this
organization I grabbed itbecause I figured you'd ask.
It's called the Empty Tomb.
It's in Champaign, illinois.
They study the state of churchgiving across the country.
1970, the average gift in allof Christendom in the United
States was 3.1%.
Today it's 1.7%.
The Missouri Synod, from theirdata, is 1.9%.
I can tell you anecdotally fromwhat I see if I take a

(35:24):
15-minute drive time around achurch and look at the average
household income there, averageis probably 2.5% of gift Best
I've seen is six, you know.
So I mean those are all justnumber of things, but just
practically just working on itand it's good for you, it's good
to it, helps you get rid of theidols in your life.
It does, you know, just from apractical side.

Speaker 3 (35:43):
Powerful spiritual warfare.
That's what I've learned in myown journey with giving is that
it teaches you to depend on Godas your provider and to resist
money as an idol in your life.
And what's beautiful is to seethat you give and are generous
and God still provides for you.

Speaker 2 (36:01):
Yeah Well, jack, you've been a model for me and
for the congregation.
I don't know if thecongregation knows, but yeah,
your story, marta's story, yourwife, I mean she's got the
spiritual gift of generosity.
She, right, I mean you toldthat story and she's kind of
spurred you on in yourgenerosity journey.
She would give more if youpossibly could, right.
And you can't out.

(36:21):
I know this sounds pithy like apreacher statement, but you
literally can't out give God,test me in this.
And so there is, there isbeauty, and on the other side,
it's not more stuff, right, it'smore faith, right.
Just what we all need moretrust in our provider, Anything
more there, jack.

Speaker 3 (36:38):
Well, that's what was revealed in the conversation
with the young wealthy man.
Right Is where was his idol atthat point in time?
He declared that he fulfilledthe law.
You know well, the law istrusting God.
So let's see Do you trust inGod?

Speaker 2 (36:52):
Amen, amen.
I went down a rabbit trail,knew we would, we should, and
I'm glad we hung there for asecond, second need, as you're
looking kind of at the broaderchurch there, joe.

Speaker 4 (37:01):
We touched on this earlier, but I would say it's
aiming at excellence.
You know, I mean one of mypastors I think this is a neat
analogy would say that manypeople have flat tire syndrome.
They've been driving theirwhole life on flat tires and
they don't know what it's liketo drive with filled up tires
and so they just assume thatthat's what's great.
So, aiming at that, I have alittle anecdotal story about
this.
I was at a team meeting inLincoln, Nebraska, and we met at

(37:25):
University Lutheran Churchthere and the University of
Nebraska's campus, and rightacross the street is the John
Newman Center.
It's this like beautifulCatholic, massive college
ministry that was built in 2016.
It's gorgeous.
You walk in and it'sunbelievable.
I'm a church, I love churcharchitecture.
I walk in and I just like Icould sit and stare at Jesus all
day.
And I walked in and they werehaving adoration.

(37:46):
No, I'm not saying like wedon't believe in that, like take
and eat, take and drink, don'ttake and stare, but like that's
their world, so we canappreciate it's their world.
And when I, there were like 40kids there this is the first
week of school at Adoration.
And then when I walked out,there was a sign up on the wall
that said Jesus should never bealone, and there were 80 kids

(38:07):
names signed up in 20 minutegoes for the next month and this
is the first week of school.
And I sat back and I thoughtwhen I was 18 to 22, I can't
imagine I mean, like getting tochurch was good enough for me at
that point, not like signing upto like take care of Jesus at
adoration during the week and Iwas just so struck I want to.
I wish I could have ran into apriest there and been like what?
Like tell me about this, I wantto know more.

(38:28):
Like you're connecting withkids in a way that is
unbelievable.
And I was telling the storylater at a gathering of LCMS
people.
One of the people was fromNebraska and I was just telling
him how I was kind ofdumbfounded by this.
And then another person mucholder in age, who had converted
from Catholicism made thisstatement they're just trying to
earn their way into heaven.
And I sat back and I thought,man, that's just such a flat

(38:51):
tire view of things.
Like I know all of this stuff.
This is the baseline of thatand I didn't push on it because
it wasn't the environment topush back on things.
But it was also a can youimagine if tires were filled up
and I actually did talk to aCatholic person from now and
find out, like, what do youactually believe?
But also like, isn't thisunbelievable that they've got
all of these young people likeflocking to church and I want to

(39:12):
learn about it.
So moving from that flat tireof like this is what is great to
like expanding and growing andlearning about that.
I think it's so important forus.

Speaker 2 (39:20):
Amen.
That's the abundance, mindsetand freedom that we have in
Christ which leads us to seebeauty in all directions and be
able to speak the truth in love.
When there could be somethingthat's more beautiful, more
lovely the human mind.
We always want to go down thesedark paths right.
This is a part of our sinnature that looks at what is
wrong before what is right andgood, and true and beautiful,

(39:43):
and the Apostle Paul encouragessuch things.
Jack, any follow up on that?

Speaker 3 (39:46):
No, I don't have anything to add.
I think it's a really powerfulstory that you know that I think
people are looking for thattype of significance.
You know, when I think aboutthat story of people signing up
to do this, that there's asignificance to that, right,
there's a meaning to that.
And when we sign up to serve,you know what is the meaning to
that, what is the story behindthat?
In this particular case, it'sknowing that I'm doing something

(40:10):
to make sure that, like theyframed it, jesus should never be
alone, right, and so they'reshowing honor to Jesus in that
particular instance.
And I think sometimes we invitepeople to serve and do we do a
good job actually talking aboutthe meaning and the significance
of that serving Right, how dowe find, how do we find I'm
trying to find the right wordshere how do we find actual

(40:33):
meaningful vocation in what weask people to do?
That's probably the way I lookat it.

Speaker 2 (40:38):
Whatever you've done for the least of these, my
brothers, you've done unto me,and so when we serve, we are
really serving the body ofChrist, the living manifestation
of the body of.
Christ, as we care for oneanother, as we meet those who
are lonely and vulnerable.
There is Christ, christ, and heneeded friends.
Everybody needs friends.

(40:58):
I'm thinking just this night inthe garden stay here, watch and
pray.
You know the spirit is willing,the flesh is weak and he comes
out three different times andthey're sleeping.
You know he wants to be aroundhis friends so they can kind of
bear a part of the cross withhim as he goes and then
ultimately is all alone, so thatwe would never, we would never
be, and the heightened breadthof his love from the cross, his

(41:19):
blood covering our sins, movesus out in love and community to
the body of christ.
So that's, that's beautiful.
Final one, you say be willingto let non-essential things
morph and die.

Speaker 4 (41:30):
Say more about that need, joe um, you know things
that are not.
Here's another story.
There's a.
There's a.
My church that I'm at had a 30year long, longstanding men's
Bible study.
At 6 30 AM in the morning therewere Wheaton, illinois is a
weird place.
Everybody's a Christian there.
It's home of Billy Graham,right?
You know like he went toWheaton college.
You know like that's just whereit is.

(41:50):
And so eight of the guys ofthose 12 that were there weren't
members of our church but theywere members of other churches.
They just had been doing thisforever.
When I would be able to go, I'dbring the average age down
quite significantly by showingup in the room, and I shared
with one of my pastors like whatif we did this at a different
time?
You know we might lose thatconnection over there, but it
might expand.
And so it took a couple ofyears but we moved it to 630 at

(42:19):
night and now there's between 40and 50 guys there every night,
you know, covering the broadswath of our church.
It impacts me because every itseems like most churches want to
have governing board meetingsat seven o'clock on Tuesday and
Thursday and so that's just auniversal meeting time and so I
have to miss, you know half ofthem or so, but that's okay,
because there's 40 or 50 otherpeople there that are doing that
, and so that's what I mean bylike some non-essential thing
that, just because it's beenthat one way, you know, a timing

(42:39):
is non-essential, right, likefinding the place that it works
the best for that is that.
So that's what I would say inthat world is and don't, don't
take offense when somebody asksquestions.
You know they just just assumethe best in that when, when they
do that.

Speaker 3 (42:51):
Well, and sometimes programs need to be sunset and
and you know, there's gosh.
I was reading, uh, patrickLencioni's book about the six
types of working geniuses andthey it was like a guy going
into, they tell the little fablestory and he's in this church
meeting and they're doing this,this, uh gosh, this festival.
And they just did it becausethey always did it and they

(43:12):
never took the time to actuallyask why are we doing this?
Right, we always do this.
So it's like you need to havemechanisms to actually challenge
like is this thing that wecreated?
It was beautiful for a time.
It served a purpose for a time.
Maybe it doesn't serve itspurpose anymore.
Maybe we need to look at newthings to actually fulfill the

(43:32):
discipleship needs of ourcommunity.
So we have to be permissiongiving in that to some degree.

Speaker 2 (43:37):
Right, the church is always going to do word and
sacrament work, of course, andwe're going to gather for the
divine service, right, butoutside of that, I think there's
a fair amount of freedom forsure?

Speaker 3 (43:48):
So let's.

Speaker 2 (43:49):
I like talking behaviors.
This is the last question, joe,behavior analysis for leaders.
Behaviors can change,personality generally does not,
but behaviors the way we engagein the world, what we do and say
, can change.
So what top three behaviors doyou pray every leader at every
level in the LCMS and beyond inthe wider church, possess?

Speaker 4 (44:10):
Joe, at the end of Acts 2, we hear that the people
had favor with all the peoples.
So, working on our winsomewitness, you know, those people
that Jesus bled and died for,that aren't a part of our world
yet, that don't know him yetthat we would have a winsome
witness, even that we would havea winsome witness amongst one
another, I think would be good.
I think a second thing toowould be, as the people, as the

(44:31):
laity who will be leaders, butto have a posture of reception
rather than immediate critique,and I mean that in the way of
there's an important time todiscern and to you know, make
sure that what is being said andpreached and all of that is
correct and true, and at thesame time, don't miss out on the
fact that this sermon, or God'sword, as you are given to you,

(44:52):
as you hear it, is to bereceived.
And if you critique firstbefore you receive, it just
seems like you're going to missout on some things.
You're always going to begrumpy, you know about that.

Speaker 2 (45:02):
Well, let me double click on that, because this is,
I think, one of the best toolsin a pastor's tool belt a leader
at any level, but certainly apastor, because you're going to
have I always like to useGrandma Schmittke you're going
to have a Grandma Schmittkelongtime member at St Paul's
Lutheran come up to you and say,have you thought about this

(45:24):
pastor?
Or have you?
Do you know that this is theway you came across?
Or this could get even moreoffensive to the younger pastor
or the newer pastor.
Pastor John did it this way.
Have you thought about that?
If your immediate move in thatmoment is to critique Grandma
Schmittke, watch out, son, shecarries a lot of weight, you

(45:46):
know.
And so I want to make friendswith Grandma Schmittke.
I'm thinking of Rena Roberts,now a precious saint in
anticipation of the resurrection.
Rena Roberts, jack, the littlebirdie who told you you needed
to be a part of using yourinstrumental gifts, to be a part
of the ministry.
If I didn't make friends withRena Roberts, whoo baby, watch

(46:06):
out, you know Because shecarried, she was opinion, she
was an opinion leader and shebecause she loved the church.
And then I was open.
Now I didn't agree with her oneverything, but I was at least
open to hearing what she saidand even growing, and maybe the
way we message or the things westart or refine is critiqued.

(46:27):
My receptivity to her had acascading effect in building
trust in the entire congregationand I think, that principle
from the local church todistrict and synod.
You can just scale that out.
Is your first instinct to saycritique, no, or do we develop a
behavior that's slightly moreagreeable, looking for the

(46:47):
points of commonality?
If we move in that directionmore, that's going to be a very,
very healthy behavioral movefor us, systemically in our
local churches and in our worktogether, our walk together in
the Synod.
Anything more to say there, joe?

Speaker 4 (46:59):
Yeah, and even in the Synod, but beyond, even in our
relationships I think about.
I got this group of guys that Imeet with every Monday morning
from my gym that we read thegospel reading for the next
Sunday and there are a couple ofevangelical guys, a couple of
Catholic guys.
We're all about the same time.
I would love for them all tocommune at my not my at Jesus's
altar in my church one day.
Right, Because I believe thisis the realest, truest thing

(47:21):
ever in the world.
Right, like we have the truth.
But if I jumped immediatelyevery time that we read a
baptismal text and like jumpedall over my buddy that has a
different view of that, you know, I might burn down that
relationship.
It's not that I don't say, well, this is what we believe about
that and this is where we findthat.
But if I just like screamed andyelled at him about it, like I
don't have my brother, I don'thave the mutual conversation and

(47:42):
consolation of the brethrenthat we have at that point in
time, that doesn't mean that weshould put aside our differences
.
We should talk about them, butwe should talk about them in
love, because Jesus loves you.
Christ has no enemy, so I haveno enemy.
So that would be.
You know from that that I loveyou and I'm going to be so
confident in what I believe thatI'm just going to have a public
confession about like apositive confession about it,

(48:03):
like this is what's so good.

Speaker 2 (48:10):
Yes, it's so good.
Well, just think about Jesus,joe.
Like he hung out for threeyears with a dude who's going to
betray him.
He knows it all.
Another guy that's going todeny him, and the rest of them
generally, are going to abandonhim in his greatest moment of
need.
And yet he poured his life intothem, spoke vision over them.
This is the posture of Jesus.
Did he perfectly agree witheverything they did and said no,
but he developed friendshipwith them, and that friendship
fueled the early church for usto go in.

(48:33):
And I see that you worship manygods.
Let me tell you about the Godwho's revealed himself, this
openness and wonder that the Godof the universe wants to make
every human heart his home.
God's on a mission to bringevery human heart.
He runs, he sells, he gives itall, and the cross is the
example, so that the whole worldwho did Jesus die for that?

(48:55):
The whole world would be savedand come to a knowledge of how
good he is and how loving he is,how kind he is.
He is a God of judgment, to besure, but that's his alien
nature.
His proper nature is love, andwe should treat one another in
like fashion.
So I think that goes to yourlast behavior.
Joe, take us.

Speaker 4 (49:15):
Yeah, just God puts a lot of people in your path and
you were there to love them.
You know that doesn't mean thatyou agree with them, that
doesn't mean that you don'tspeak the truth to them, but
he's given you to love them.
Even your bum brother, even theneighbor that drives you nuts,
like all of those people, aregiven there for you to love.
And you know the best place forus to practice that is in our
congregations.
There's not I can't imaginethere's not a single

(49:38):
congregation that there's notsomebody in the congregation
that drives another person nuts.
I bet Tim, and I bet you, jack,I bet both of you have members
of your church that drive youNot one.
I deny it, not one Okay.

Speaker 2 (49:50):
I'm just joking with you.

Speaker 4 (49:50):
You're exactly right, I won't talk about members of
my family, yeah, and so in thatinstance, to practice, have love
for them, you know, and toalways find the I can understand
.
There's this book, father Joe.
I don't know if you guys haveever read this book, father Joe.
It's about like one of thefounders of National Lampoon,
tony Hendra, and so it's hislife.

(50:11):
He was going to become a priest.
He has this.
The story starts out with how hemet Father Joe, this priest, at
a monastery.
He had, he was 15.
He was over at this lady'shouse and he had, he had an
affair with her.
Like the lady came on to him,like all of those things had an
affair, and he, the husband,calls him over.
He's thinking, oh, this isgoing to, you're 15.
There's this guy and he's likeyou need to go over to this

(50:33):
monastery and you need to meetFather Joe.
He sends him there and he goesto Father Joe to sit down for
his very first confession andhe's expecting you know, in
their world there's penance,there's all sorts of things that
go on with that.
Again, don't?

(50:53):
It's fine?
Confession of absolution isgreat.
And so he goes, and he goes toFather Joe and he tells him the
story and Father Joe's firstwords out of his mouth before he
said anything else, was thatpoor woman.
And so in that you could seethe compassion of, yes, this
woman probably she's older,there's all of these things
You're a 15 year old boy, all ofthese things but she's now made
a wreck of her life.
She's now like all of that andto have compassion through that,
to still love her through that.
Now he told Tony, it's probablybest that you don't go ever see

(51:14):
her again, like that's probablywhat is best.
But but in that, to have thatview of all of the people around
you, of an immediate instead ofhate, like hating them or be
despising them to, to see that,uh, that decision that I think
is a really, really terribledecision is probably going to
wreck you and I'm going to bethere when you fall.
But I think of what Father Joesaid that poor woman.

Speaker 2 (51:37):
Jesus looks upon the least, the lonely, the leper,
the crowds as sheep without ashepherd, and he always has
compassion on us.
Even when, and especially whenwe which we're prone to do
because of sin make a mess ofour lives, he runs and he
forgives, and when we, by theSpirit's power, turn and are

(51:59):
called up in repentance, he'salways there with a warm embrace
and the kindness of Jesus.
This has been so much fun.
Joe, you're a gift to the bodyof Christ.
I'm grateful that you'reserving in your role.
Faithfully pray for you andyour family and the ministry of
LCEF.
If people want to connect withyou, how can they do so, Joe?

Speaker 4 (52:16):
If they check out lcefnidsubstackcom, that's where
my newsletter is and all ofthat, so they can get a hold of
me there or send me an email atjoewillman at lceforg.

Speaker 2 (52:25):
Closing comment Jack, how'd the conversation?
Every conversation leaves amark and touches and changes us.
That's the way the word works,right.
What are you leaving with today, jack?

Speaker 3 (52:34):
I think to me, what I loved about our conversation
the most was talking about thedifference between perfection
and excellence and reallyleaning on that, and I think
that's an opportunity, for Ithink that's an area where
leaders burn themselves out andtear themselves up, and I think
we need an opportunity to restin the grace and the forgiveness
and the restoration of Jesusand also then pursue excellence

(52:56):
in the freedom that God gives us.

Speaker 2 (52:58):
Yeah, Rest in the excellencies of the one who
called you out of darkness intohis marvelous, marvelous light.
This is Lead Time.
Please like, subscribe, commentwherever it is you take in
these conversations, and we areabout unity, and if you've heard
anything today that you have adifference of opinion on, we
have more to learn always, and Iknow that's the posture you

(53:18):
have as well, joe, please,please share this and comment.
That helps get the message out.
And this is a great day to bealive.
It's Monday, thursday.
We're heading to Easter.
The tomb is empty, alleluia.

Speaker 1 (53:34):
I know I can't necessarily say that, but when
you're listening to this, it'sgoing to be alleluia time.

Speaker 2 (53:36):
Christ is risen.
He is risen indeed, Alleluia.
It's a good day.
Go and make it a great day.
Thanks so much, Joe Jack.

Speaker 1 (53:41):
God bless guys.
You a podcast of the UniteLeadership Collective.
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(54:05):
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