April 25, 2025 • 48 mins
Attorney Kurth Brashear doesn't shy away from addressing the challenging governance issues facing the Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod today. Drawing from his extensive experience in both church leadership and legal practice, he offers a candid assessment of how the church's governance structures sometimes hinder rather than help our shared mission.
• Developing a heart for church mission comes from understanding that God wants all people to be saved
• The "clearinghouse concept" facilitates sharing of synodical resolutions across districts to improve communication
• Prior approval process lacks transparency, leading to mistrust and uncertainty within church leadership
• Many church leaders fear speaking openly about opportunities for improvement due to potential repercussions
• Term limits for synodical officers would remind us that no one is irreplaceable in God's mission
• Current electoral system gives equal weight to congregations regardless of size, creating representation imbalances
• Commissioned ministers' voices need greater recognition in church governance and decision-making
• Primary focus should remain on the 98% we agree on rather than the 2% where we differ
• Healthy organizations handle difficult conversations well rather than avoiding them
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is Lead Time.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Welcome to Lead Time, tim Allman here.
Jack Calberg is still away onvacation Today.
I pray.
The joy of Jesus is yourstrength.
As I get to talk with Kurth ABrashear, let me tell you about
him.
He's a partner at Rembolt.
Ludkey, ludkey, how am I saying?
Speaker 3 (00:17):
that right, ludkey, ludkey, ludkey.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
There we go, llp.
He is an attorney Erniemulti-practice law firm with
offices in Lincoln and Seward.
Shout out to Concordia,nebraska Go Bulldogs.
His practice is focused onestate planning, nonprofit and
exempt organizations, politicalsubdivisions, municipalities Wow
and corporate and commerciallaw.
During his nearly 30 years inthe legal field, kurth has
(00:40):
served as legal counsel formultiple religious organizations
and charities and regularlypresents on legal issues facing
ministries.
That leads us in the directionwe're going today.
Prior to joining Rumble, kurthwas the VP for Institutional
Advancement at ConcordiaUniversity, nebraska, where he
oversaw fundraising, alumnirelations, church relations and
(01:00):
community relations for theuniversity.
During his tenure, generoussupporters partnered with the
university to achieve numerousfundraising successes.
You were in advancementdevelopment, praise God.
He also served as theuniversity's first general
counsel, so I'm just going topause right there.
Kurth, what does that mean thatyou were a general counsel for
(01:21):
Concordia, nebraska?
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Yeah, so that means I was the in-house attorney.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Legal attorney Legal attorney yes so beautiful.
So he's a lifelong member of theLCMS.
He's a member at St JohnLutheran Church in Seward.
That's where I worshipped in myfour years there as a bulldog.
He serves as an elder.
He's concluding his service onwow, the Constitution and
Handbook Committee of theNebraska District of the LCMS,
and he sits on the board ofdirectors for the Lutheran
(01:45):
Ministry Foundation and he'spreviously served as a
congregational president,district convention delegate
Thank you for doing thatDistrict convention
parliamentarian and attendedseveral synodical conventions.
He's got a Bachelor of Arts inEnglish and History at Valpo and
he's got a jurist doctor.
I'm always learning new things.
(02:06):
What is a jurist doctor?
Is that a legal thing as well,kurt?
Speaker 3 (02:09):
It just means you're a lawyer.
You've graduated from a lawschool.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
I'm learning new things all the time.
So he's married to his wife.
Jessica is a school counselorand he has a daughter who is a
director of Christian education.
And yeah, oh, she is your wife.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Jessica, my father-in-law was a DCE, so yeah
, how old are your kids?
Speaker 2 (02:31):
You have three kids.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
One's going to be 17 coming up, another one who's
just turned 13.
And then a 10-year-old who'sgot a birthday next month.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Hey, all right.
So in the thick of it, you areright in the thick of it.
You are right in the thick ofit, bro.
Right with me, I got three highschoolers.
So we we are.
We need all the prayers we canreceive as we're raising up
these sweet little ones.
So let's get into why we'retalking today.
How did you develop a heart tohelp LCMS voters in particular
be informed about Senateopportunities for growth?
(03:03):
Tell that story, Kurt.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Yeah, this might be a little broader than one wants,
but I, you know, tim, and Iappreciate the invitation to be
with you today.
So I'm a lifelong member ofMissouri Synod congregations,
baptized in the church.
Pacific Hills Lutheran in Omaha, congregation I grew up in,
went to Lutheran grade school inOmaha.
St Paul Lutheran went toLutheran grade school in Omaha.
(03:25):
St Paul Lutheran went toValparaiso University, you know,
came back and joined anotherLCMS congregation, beautiful
Savior in La Vista.
And so I, you know, at marryinga daughter, my wife being the
daughter of a DCE, I would sayI'm just Lutheran, right and in
it and thankful for that.
Parents who modeled the faith,took us to church, cared about
(03:47):
school, cared about our growing,all the things, but it was
really as an adult and a couple,three things I would say really
kind of lead to this, of thisidea of the passion for the
mission, not just my own faithlife, but what do we do as the
church?
One of those was I was invited,thankfully, to be on the Board
(04:10):
of Directors for ConcordiaFoundation, for your alma
mater's foundation, and it wasinteresting.
That was when I was practicinglaw in Omaha and it was just
interesting to me to see how somany discussions about what was
going on in Seward at some pointinvolved the words church
workers and non-church workersand enrollment, recruitment,
(04:30):
right, what is Concordia thereto prepare them for?
And I've never been a big fanof defining people by what they
aren't, and for me it reallycame down to why can't it be
both?
And some of this comes probablyfrom going to Valpo, where that
was the first time in my lifethat I what kind of Lutheran are
you?
Are you LCMS or are you ELCA?
(04:51):
Right?
And those were questions Ididn't deal with in Omaha.
That was a Catholic town andyou were just a Lutheran.
So for my experience, and thereason I started supporting your
alma mater, even though Ididn't go there, was because it
is such a clear witness of whoChrist is.
And it's preparing churchworkers, yes, but preparing
(05:11):
laity to also serve and witnessin the vocations God's called
them to, like me, and I thoughtthat was really important.
There needs to be a focus onthe fact that all these
vocations are given to us by God.
It's what you know.
Who's writing our check, who'spaying us, is the difference.
So that was one just as apremise.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
The second was Can we stop right there, kurt?
I just have to double down onthat.
I am doing every becauselanguage matters, you're in law,
language matters, you get paidby the minute.
You were just saying you knowon the words you use.
So if we could, if we could besensitive toward the fact of, if
we say, professional churchworker, that that's a loaded
(05:51):
phrase that I think in somecircles maybe lowers the mission
, the multi-vocational missionof the everyday follower of
Jesus who is sent out to makeJesus known in the marketplace
based on the gifts that he'sgiven.
I think we're all the church.
Some just happen to be paid toadvance the mission of Jesus.
(06:12):
So if we went to there'sleaders all over the place,
they're paid or non-paid by thechurch, and let's give elevated
credence to those that are notpaid to advance the mission.
There was no economic enginethat was set up to advance the
cause of the early church.
In the book of Acts theyestablished that over time, to
be sure, but early on everyonesent out non-paid.
(06:32):
Go figure it out, you know.
So anyway, I think theprofessional church worker,
church worker, non-church worker, we're all the church, for
goodness sake, and I thinkConcordia Nebraska does a great
job at making that very, veryevident in their mission.
That's what I experienced.
That was ingrained in me some25 years ago going through
undergrad.
So praise be to God.
Just had to double down on howtrue that is.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
No, I appreciate that and I agree, we're all church
workers, the priesthood of allbelievers.
It's just some of us areprofessionally trained to be
that and some of us are doing itas a matter of our faith.
But it's all important and Ithink one of the tensions that
came out of those conversationswas again, as I kind of said,
it's always why do we have tochoose?
Let's do both, let's prepareboth to go out and witness a
(07:20):
member of Beautiful Savior andhad great pastors there, keith
Grimm most prominently, whoreally did a wonderful job with
the congregation of talkingabout emphasizing when God calls
you, are you prepared to follow, are you prepared to go where
he might call you on the missionthat he's going to give to you,
as we've even just kind oftalked about.
(07:41):
Right, we all get differentmissions, as we were talking
about before this, and so thatwas important to me.
And then, finally, a dearfriend, in terms of this passion
for the mission of the church,because for me it really comes
down to understanding better asa adult than I did as a child,
(08:01):
that God wants all to be saved.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
And it's our job.
He doesn't need us to, but itis our task to witness his son
and what he did for them.
And a man I respect greatly, alayman, once said to me, kurth,
if we believe what we say, webelieve about what happens to
those who do not believe, weshould be on fire for getting as
(08:25):
many people introduced toChrist as possible.
And so if you put for me, tim,if you put those three things
together, it really comes outthen to.
So how do we as the church,both at the local level, but
then as the Missouri Synodnationally, how do we do that
work to witness, to give theSpirit the opportunity to work
(08:48):
through us to have as manypeople saved as possible?
And that's probably where mypassion for the mission of the
church at large comes from.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
So how did that passion for the mission lead you
toward kind of the synodical?
We're in convention season,right?
Many of my brothers, you know,pastors and laymen and women
have been serving at districtconventions and we're heading
into 2026.
The synodical convention willbe here in Phoenix in July.
(09:18):
I think it was pretty cheap iswhy they're coming here in July.
Nonetheless, good stewardship,praise God.
So tell us about theClearinghouse concept for
district and synod resolutions,because there's a lot.
I know a lot of pastors arelike, oh my goodness, I've been
to the last three synodical.
That's like the least likelything, and I've found the
process kind of fascinating.
Is there a room for growth?
(09:39):
For sure, but it's a complexthing.
A national church body with 35districts, a lot of different
contexts, right, and so we needsome who can help us curate some
of the best resolutions for usto continue to advance the
mission of Jesus in the LCMS.
So talk about yourclearinghouse concept, kurt.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
Yeah, and if I can I'll go one step back.
You're talking about.
I mean, in my experience frombeing at Concordia and just in
general, there are a lot ofpastors who are talking about
these issues.
I mean the ordained ministersdo.
I think the problem is thelaity doesn't and the laity's
not involved in it.
And that's my view, tim, isthat our polity is set up so
(10:18):
that the congregations have anequal vote with the ordained
ministers right.
But we have way too manycongregations who have just kind
of said, hey, whatever pastorsays is good, you know, or we're
not even going to get reallyinvolved in this because it's
church politics and we need weneed laity to be involved.
But it is harder for laity whoare doing their work nine to
(10:39):
five during the week and othersto say I don't know what this
prior approval is about.
In St Louis that seems like asynod thing and I'll leave it to
them, and so part of it was anencouragement, one of I'd like
to see congregations use theirvoice more to provide some
balance to our system.
So it's not just the pastorshaving input on these things, it
(11:01):
is the congregations as wellhaving input on these things.
It is the congregations as well.
The second part is just bynature of being non-hierarchical
, in terms of at least how we'restructured.
You know, we end up with abunch of congregations who are
in their silo.
They're in their mission field,they're doing their work, but
they may not be paying attentionto or even aware of what's
going on, you know, in adistrict across the country or
(11:24):
in a congregation even acrosstown.
And so the clearinghouse was atleast my idea of having been
blessed through my work atConcordia to get to know people
across the Senate, across thenation, of at least saying to
folks hey, let's have a placewhere people can bring up
resolutions or ideas they mighthave and share those with others
(11:45):
so there can be feedback.
So maybe there are ideas thatare presented in the Nebraska
district and in PacificSouthwest and in the Atlantic
and in Florida, georgia, becausepeople are now aware, yeah,
that's it, I just hadn't thoughtabout that.
That's a good idea.
Let's bring that forward to ourdistrict convention and see.
And so it was trying to getpeople connected who I think
it's just not our nature as asynod to really interact with
(12:08):
each other much beyond somechannels like what you're doing
with United LeadershipCollective and others.
We just don't have a lot ofcross communication.
We have a lot of up-downcommunication and that makes it
harder to organize or to bringthings to a convention.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Yeah, no, that's definitely true.
So if people are listeningright now and they want to get
connected to the clearinghouse,I normally wait till the end,
but just drop that.
Where can they connect it?
Speaker 3 (12:32):
Well, if they're interested in something, they
can email me.
So kbrashear, b-r-a-s-h-e-a-rat rembolt R-E-M-B-O-L-T.
Lawfirmcom.
Or you just look up KurthBrashear in Google.
There's only one of me, soGoogle pretty much finds me
anyway.
But I'd be happy to forward tothem anything that was submitted
(12:54):
so they could think about that.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Amen, amen, all right .
Well, we've talked on thispodcast a fair amount about the
prior approval process andyou've thought about it a fair
amount as well.
What do you think needs tochange in that?
And I always have to say, likethis is not an attack on any one
person in leadership, like thisis a system that's been created
(13:16):
through bylaw changes over time, and I think bylaws need to
change to give greatertransparency to how the prior
approval process happens,connected to our concordias and
to our seminaries.
So would you talk about that alittle bit, kurt?
Speaker 3 (13:31):
Yeah, I would say Tim , first, as an attorney who
deals in a lot of nonprofitissues, one of the challenges we
have in the church is we aretrying to paper trust.
You cannot create enough bylaws, enough constitution provision,
enough policies to enoughdetail, to the point that we all
kind of joke about.
You know well, let's see what5.3.3.1.2.5 says about this.
(13:55):
Right, you can never, you cannever paper trust.
So there's got to be an elementof we're going to trust each
other, that we're all, we allconfess, share a belief in the
confessions, know Christ to bethe sole means of salvation, et
cetera.
And I'm not saying et cetera,dismiss it, I'm just we all know
it.
Right, we know it.
(14:15):
I think that.
But that mindset has permeatedand continues in the synod from
way back of this sense of wewant to make sure, we want to be
certain and prior approval, Ithink has probably and I'll
defer as a lay person I think ithas a lot of merit to it in the
sense of we want to make surethat the people who are leading
(14:36):
our institutions and teachingtheology and in certain
positions of influence orimportance, that they do share
our confession and are going todo those things.
Yep, that makes perfect senseFor sure.
From my perspective, theproblem is and I know it's been
(14:57):
talked about on this podcast andothers but there's no
transparency at all of what arethe standards that are being
used, and a lack of transparencyfosters mistrust.
It fosters not putting the bestconstruction on things.
It leads one to wonder.
It may cause us to startslandering or thinking about
(15:19):
those sinfully I mean in oursinful condition, and I'll use
my example.
So when Brian Friedrich left togo to Concordia St Paul, he was
president.
When I came to Concordia,nebraska, he left.
I was still on staff there.
I was blessed to be nominated byseveral people for that
presidential search topotentially be a president at
(15:43):
Concordia, nebraska.
Now, god in his wisdom did notinclude me in that, but the
point that happened after sayingyes, I'd agree to be nominated,
I'd submit the informationright, is all I get after that
is simply you're not movingforward.
You're not on the, you're not,you're not a pastor, you're not
on the list.
But there's no reason why.
(16:03):
And I'm going to tell you, tim,honestly, that was one of those
moments that's reallychallenging when you're a person
of faith of well, am I notLutheran enough?
Do I not believe enough,because no one talked to me, no
one interviewed me, no one knows.
I put down all my bona fidesand I have no idea.
(16:24):
Now let me be clear BernardBoll, god has called exactly the
right person to be at Concordia, nebraska.
But we have to have somethingthat says what are the standards
we're using, what is theprocess that was applied?
And, frankly, the other part ofit is, I think, a sense of if
(16:46):
we're saying, especially withpastors or professional church
workers, rostered church workers, if they're not sufficient for
prior approval, do we not haveto ask then, why are they in the
positions they're in now andare there any issues that might
need to be addressed with that?
I know of one instance at leastwith a pastor who was on a
(17:08):
prior approval list to teach ata seminary but wasn't on a prior
approval list to teach theologyat a Concordia.
I don't understand how thathappens.
And so we've got to.
The only way we can function asa church body as well together,
as God would want us to do tocarry out the mission, is that
(17:30):
we have trust, transparency,understanding of what are the
processes that are being usedand what are the standards that
are being applied.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Yeah, I 100% agree, praying for that, praying for
resolutions toward that end.
You and I both have experienceswhere some synod workers
experience adverse outcomes forchallenging the existing status
of the synod, challenging thestatus quo.
How did we get to the placewhere even lovingly challenging
(18:00):
the status quo became apunishable offense?
No one could lead in the localchurch, at least not lead well,
if they never challenged thestatus quo.
But it feels very hierarchical.
It doesn't feel congregationaland I know congregations are
messy.
But the synod in conventionexists to care for, steward,
(18:23):
raise up leaders for the nextgeneration so that all would
know Jesus, to advance the causeof Christ connected to our
confessions, which I believe isthe best exposition of scripture
.
And yet, if you look atsomething like prior approval,
like pastoral formation, likeour passive, aggressive
tendencies in synod, if youlovingly speak about that like I
(18:47):
can speak about it because I'min a congregation that says Tim,
there's some things that needto change for us to advance our
mission here in the East Valleyof Phoenix and if it's going to
bless us, maybe it could blessother unique contexts as well.
And so, yeah, 20% of your timeis going to be spent talking
about some difficult things inin the synod, let's, let's get
after it Like I'm.
(19:07):
That's my context, that's mycharge from my board.
But if I were in another chairin one of our institutions,
there is no way I could have hadall the conversations I've had
up to this point.
I'm covered by my local churchand there has to be at some
point.
I don't care if you agree oneverything we've said.
That is not according to theway of Jesus, that we couldn't
(19:29):
be honest with our brother orsister.
Where there's opportunities forgrowth, sin is ever before me,
right?
I mean, there's alwaysopportunities to change.
I don't know how we got to thisand I think it's the passive,
aggressive tendency.
I see you, but then I'm goingto.
I talk not to you, but I'lltalk about you to other people
and this I was just talking witha brother, but I'll talk about
you to other people.
(19:49):
And this I was just talking witha brother, talking about how
like people like each other.
You know, I like to be aroundpeople that are like me and I
think that's like the root of mysin, because sin separates us
from God.
God should have no right.
He should have.
There's no conceivable way thatthe God of the universe, who is
wholly other, would make me abroken sinner, the most other to
(20:12):
God, his dwelling place, histemple.
So God has breached that gap,he's bridged it.
We as the church are called todo the exact same thing.
And if we can't do that withour brothers and sisters in the
LCMS, what chance do we havewith those that are far from the
Lord in our community?
So there we go, rant done.
What's your thought, kurt?
Speaker 3 (20:31):
This is just the adult version of what we, at
least in Nebraska, call theLutheran parking lot
conversation right After thecongregational meeting, where no
one says anything because theydon't want to be risk anything
or be judged or say, oh, you'renot as Lutheran as you think you
are, and then we'll go out inthe conversation and the little
groups will form and talk abouthow much they don't like
(20:52):
whatever just happened and wehave to find a way to be able to
have conversation, to havediscussion, to be transparent
with each other because weconfess we are all sinners and
have fallen short of the graceof God and none of us is not
that right.
But the last two places in myexperience, just speaking for me
(21:16):
, the last two places in thesynod really, where it's okay to
articulate yourself withoutrepercussion, are either a
congregation, because thecongregations are still kind of,
you know, in their position inour structure, and for laity,
because you know I'm not goingto get excommunicated, I don't
think, from St John for being onyour podcast or for sharing my
(21:38):
thoughts and others right.
But for the rostered workers, Imean, there has been a, for
whatever reason, has developed.
There has become a culture ofconcern about what will I say?
What's recorded, what's shared,what is somebody watching from
some other place who isn'tinvolved in my ministry, but
(22:01):
they'll make comments about that.
Or I've been blessed to havemany friends who work at
different levels of the Senateand they will talk about folks
that they know have read theirsocial media feed or something
and been like, well, why wereyou with this person?
Or why did you attend thatconference?
And it's, what are we doinghere?
(22:23):
I mean we need to engage with asinful, broken world.
The church is sinful and brokenas well.
All of us are saved.
We got to step back from amoment of saying, well, I'm the
right kind of Lutheran and Timyou're not, or Tim you saying
that to me.
And more about what are weconfessing together, what are we
sharing and how are we going todo the mission of the church of
(22:45):
witnessing Christ to others inmany and various ways.
But we are at the point andmaybe this goes to.
There are things that I've beenblessed to know because of the
vocations God has called me toover my time.
The majority of the lay peoplein the Missouri Synod have no
awareness that this is what'sgoing on.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Well, let's make them aware.
Speaker 3 (23:09):
We have to.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
We have to so we have to.
That's what we're working to do.
Healthy organizations, healthychurches, healthy businesses.
They handle difficultconversations well.
They spur one another on towardlove and good deeds.
If we see something in acoworker, a partner, and we
don't say something, that's likethe worst position.
(23:31):
I say something out of love fora brother, because I care for
them and I want them to grow,and as they grow and their teams
grow, the congregation or theorganization grows.
That's just how it works.
Jesus engaged in difficultconversations all the time.
What's your favorite?
This is a little bit of atangent, but what's your
favorite leadership book forunderstanding how to have
(23:54):
constructive, difficultconversations?
Is there one that comes top ofmind to you, Kurth?
Speaker 3 (23:59):
I don't know, that's probably not a genre.
That's been my thing.
The Bible is good.
Well, yeah, see, now I'm notLutheran enough because I didn't
say that first.
No give me a break.
That's the problem.
I don't read a ton of those.
Maybe I should.
I think the Bible is.
I mean, look, matthew 18 is allabout leadership.
(24:22):
It is about how do we deal withone another.
How do we acknowledge wherewe've been hurt by or wronged
someone else, and how do we dealwith one another.
How do we acknowledge wherewe've been hurt by or wronged
someone else and how do we showgrace to each other?
And, frankly, there's no leaderwho's effective anywhere, who
can get by with saying to thepeople they're leading do it my
(24:42):
way, just because and that's Imean that works in your family,
maybe until you have teenagerslike at least from my experience
(25:08):
but you've got to be able toacknowledge.
And that works in your family,maybe until you have teenagers,
at least from my experience butyou've got to hurt them To hear
those words.
You know, I forgive you.
Or to forgive somebody ispowerful and it has far more
(25:31):
effect than simply saying well,you know you did this wrong and
therefore we can't trust you todo that again.
We've got to find a way toGod's in charge If I believe in
the God that I do, which is thecreator of the universe, who
does not need me but does careabout me, then you know we keep
thinking that somehow we've gotto handle this for God and we're
going to have to do all thesethings.
Let's trust.
Let's trust him one, but thenlet's also acknowledge what we
(25:54):
confess, which is and I am apoor, miserable sinner in need
of grace in all relationshipsand we don't show enough grace
to each other.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Yeah, hey, I've been.
I've been doing a lot ofthinking on sins of omission,
right?
One of my favorite leadershipbooks is Leadership and
Self-Deception, and it's writtenby the Arbinger Group.
It's a classic, now probably 20some years old, and it talks
about being in the box toward aperson or an organization
through self-deception, prettymuch through trying to justify
(26:29):
yourself as more righteous towin, and we end up putting
ourselves and others in a boxwhen we lie to ourselves like we
have no contribution towardwhatever the dysfunction is.
And confession they don't usethis word because it's a secular
book, but confession andabsolution is literally what
gets you out of the box.
My intention toward you wasgood, but the way it got
(26:54):
executed was poor.
Will you forgive me and let'sgrow up?
Let's grow up together.
This is the call of theChristian, and there's no end to
sins of omission, right?
I mean, there's always theconversation, and I think this
is the greatest sin in the LCMSright now the unhad conversation
or the fear of having aconversation where you could be
(27:15):
challenged.
So let's just silence it.
If we don't say anything aboutit, it doesn't exist.
If we don't acknowledge thepower structures that are in
place, it does and the powerstructures start in the local
church.
Let's be honest, right, it does.
And the power structures startin the local church.
Let's be honest, right, right.
The power of pastor is are theyworking through, with and for
the people, or are they workingover?
(27:36):
And the apostle paul goes offon this and jesus obviously
gives us a great example.
This is the way of the crossyou are leading through people,
with people, for them, not over,not over them.
You're not an overlord, and I'mthinking even now, even the
language of an over do we useover shepherd, we use under
shepherd, for we as pastors,right, we take the low place and
(27:57):
that moves from our homes, outof the community and there,
before the grace of God, go.
I as a leader, if I'm notworking with a team of people,
bringing them together, hearingall perspectives, casting a
vision, seeing the visiontweaked, dreaming new dreams,
trying to execute those dreams,if I'm trying to do that solely
as a pastor, kurth, I got nochance.
No chance of caring for people,discipling people and
(28:21):
multiplying them in mission tolaunch new things, if I'm not
working through the priesthoodof all believers, I'm not
working.
That's my ultimate call.
Ephesians, chapter four equipthe saints for love and good
deeds.
So yeah, we've got room forgrowth.
Anything more to say there?
Speaker 3 (28:32):
Well, and I just want you didn't?
You asked about a leadershipbook and I'll have to come up
with one sometime.
I'll have to read one maybe,but I will say, um, tim, for me
one of the key examples ofleadership that the first time I
saw it have latched on to.
I don't know if you're ahistory guy or not, but on D-Day
, dwight Eisenhower wrote amessage, taking responsibility
(28:57):
in advance in case the invasionfailed.
The invasion of France failed.
Took total said it was my call,my decision, my responsibility.
Right and to your point.
I fully agree with that and Iwould say that's one of the
aspects of my prayer for theSenate is we see more leaders
take responsibility.
As I have always said to teamsthat I've had, we'll between you
(29:19):
and I, if you make a mistake,we'll talk about that, but to
anybody outside of our team,it's my responsibility and I
will be the only one who takesthe blame for it.
And how often do we not seewhere things don't go right,
where we don't see those who arethe leaders take responsibility
?
That makes a huge difference interms of culture as well.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Well, the inverse of that is the political tendency,
because the political tendencyis to boast in what I do and
then, when things go bad, well,it was that guy, I inherited
this or whatever, right?
No, no, no Good, jesus-centered, cross-centered leadership.
If it goes well, it's the HolySpirit, it's God, it's the team,
it's us, and if it goes poorly,I take responsibility.
(30:04):
So, yeah's, let's work towardthat and you also promote I'm
going to get into this termlimits, I haven't talked about
this a lot Term limits forcircuit, district and synod
leaders.
Why are term limits, especiallyin the political engine which
is the 35 districts of the LCMSand then the synodical gathering
(30:24):
?
Why do you think term limitsare healthy?
Speaker 3 (30:27):
From my perspective, one of it's polity, but it's
also experience.
So, nebraska district we are inthe minority.
We do have term limits on ourpresident, for instance, and
I've seen in my adult lifetimeGod has blessed the Nebraska
district with Gene Gerke andthen Russ Sommerfeld and now
Richard Snow.
I mean he has provided greatleaders and there is a mindset.
(30:53):
From a faith perspective, Iwould say term limits are the
thing that cause us, as sinfulhumans, to get over the fact
that any of us is irreplaceableand it's a God we're going to
say you know, russ Sommerfeldhas done a great job as your
district president.
Who are you going to lead us tohave be the next district
president?
Right, none of us isirreplaceable.
(31:13):
So there's a perspective of,from my sense, god is going to
work, no matter what.
The other part is just,especially at the synodical
level, and it's not aboutPresident Harrison, it's not the
change.
People forget that the changein how we elect occurred before
President Harrison was electedthe first time, but when we
(31:36):
moved away from having electionsat the convention.
We are yeah, we're by default,we're almost an incumbent
protection system You're goingto.
I mean, there just aren't thatmany pastors who are well known
in the synod that once somebodyis synodical president, really
they're probably by defaultgoing to be synodical president
(31:56):
absent a major scandal of somekind which, to be clear, has not
happened, is nothing that'sgoing on, but our structure
right now is almost an incumbentdefault election, and so in
advocating for this, both on ourexperience in Nebraska, it's
then saying look, missouri Synod, god will provide us the
(32:18):
presidents we need when we needthem, but let's give more voices
an opportunity to at least havea chance to be elected, and
that may be saying thank you foryour service.
President, your time is done,and now we'll see who God leads
us for the next chapter.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
Yeah, some of the arguments against it that I
heard with district presidents,which I think are kind of funny,
is well, if he's not thedistrict president, what job
will he have?
It's like go be a pastor, Idon't know.
There's plenty of churches.
How many vacancies do you gotright now?
I'm sure one of them are goingto give this guy a shot.
(32:57):
And obviously the same is truefor anybody in a synodical
position as well, like, theheart and soul of what we do is
in the local congregation,connected to the mission, word
and sacrament here.
So yeah, that argument doesn'thold up for me.
Let's go a little bit deeperinto the demographic shift, the
voice that was given to allcongregations and lay
(33:19):
representatives in the synodicalpresident.
And this goes back 15 years agoor so, because it used to be
where you've got a circuit, anda circuit has to have a certain
amount of members in the circuitcongregations, et cetera for
even it to be a circuit thatgets to vote.
One pastor, one lay.
And it used to be that thesynod president was voted on at
(33:42):
the very, at the very beginningof the synod convention and when
and when President Kishnick wasunelected, he still had to lead
the entire convention.
I had an idea the other day whydon't we put why don't it be
the end of the convention sothat whoever is the person
that's leading it doesn't havethis kind of shame?
Because I was voted out justthe end of the convention.
(34:03):
Then you could just kind ofmove on with it.
But when we gave voice to everycongregation and as the average
size of congregations havedeclined, you got a pastor.
If you got a lay person, yourcongregation has the same weight
in choosing the next presidentof 40 people as a congregation
of 4000 people that we don'thave a house of representatives
(34:23):
in the LCMS right, it's likesolely a Senate.
So it makes it very.
This is one of the challengesfor I as a larger church pastor,
like where is our voice?
And I?
So I'm just.
While I'm on this kick, I'lljust say look at the floor
committees, look at how many ofthe synodical floor committees
include leaders who are inmedium to larger size
(34:44):
congregations that are in churchplanning movements, multi-site
movements.
You will not find many.
You will not find many andthat's unfortunate.
So anything more to say towardthe synodical president election
Kurt?
Speaker 3 (34:57):
You know, from my perspective it would be great to
get it back at the convention,and whether that's at the
beginning or the end, I stillthink it's better at the
convention when we don't have.
I mean, if I remember correctly, the last presidential election
the majority of congregationsdid not actually vote, you know,
that's just.
At least, if you're at thesynodical convention, the
delegates there are typicallyvoting right Engaged.
(35:18):
But we have, we are still usinga system we designed I mean
conceptually at least.
We designed in the 1860s, youknow, even in the 1900s, where
you had no congregation, had2000 members, no congregation
had 20 members.
I mean, you had so many Germanscoming over that they probably
(35:39):
had 200 people in that area,right, and there was a lot more
uniformity in that.
But you know, we're at a pointnow where and I'm not saying big
is the rationale, I'm talkingabout the number of people who
are involved.
But my congregation, you knowwe're one of the youth group has
180 members in it.
It's a big church, it's largerthan over half of the
(36:02):
congregations in the Synod, youknow.
So it's, how do we get somevoice that reflects all of us
amongst the 1.8 million MissouriSynod Lutherans?
Oh well, we've had acongregation here since, you
know, 1875, and there may be 20people left and they're
faithfully the word andsacraments, but their vote is
(36:24):
the same as this congregationover here that's been around
since 1960 and has 800worshiping on a weekend.
It seems skewed.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
Yeah, well, I think it is, and hopefully there are
resolutions that try to help usaddress this opportunity.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
I mean one of the you know one of the tip point, tim,
I think one of the again, Ithink a lot of people just
aren't aware of it we have Ithink 13 of the 35 districts
have fewer than 125congregations in them.
Meanwhile, you've got districtslike Michigan and Texas, which
are our largest right, who arenorth of 300.
You have districts that haveNebraska district.
We have about 95,000 baptizedmembers in the Nebraska district
(37:03):
.
We have districts I'm not goingto name them, I'm not going to
pick on it but we have districtswho have 5,000, 6,000 members I
mean we but yet we're treatingthose all as the same thing in
terms of their representation onthe nomination committee for
the Synodical Convention, interms of how we elect, and we've
just got to find a way tobalance that out a bit better.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
Do you know what that I mean?
People are looking for ideas.
You've got some resolutions.
Could you paint the picture,kurth, of how we could get a
greater distribution of voicevote in the Senate?
Any thoughts there?
Speaker 3 (37:39):
Well, I would say there's a resolution actually
that our congregation, st JohnSeward, introduced at the
Nebraska District and it hadcome out of something put into
the clearinghouse that wascalling for congregations with
more than 500 members, or no1,500 members, to be pulled out
(38:00):
of electoral circuits and havetheir own vote at the synodical
convention.
Because if you think about, Imean, the electoral circuits are
effectively supposed to bebetween 1,000 and 7,000 members
that they represent.
So it was saying let's take atleast these 80 or 90
congregations that are muchlarger and let's have them each
have a pastoral and lay delegateat the synodical convention
(38:23):
without diminishing the others,just to at least add that in for
a greater vote.
Now you know 80 votes or 160representatives out of you know
3,000 that we have at theSynodical Convention.
Is that a huge change?
No, but I think if ChristGreenfield, if St John Seward,
hales, corner, you know, ifthose congregations have a
(38:46):
delegate at the SynodicalConvention who can speak from
the perspective of these largercongregations and who represent
more just by membership,represent more Missouri Synod
Lutherans than many electoralcircuit delegates do, there'd be
a benefit to that More voicesat the table.
To your point, more voicesleads to better discussion.
(39:07):
It gets more people involved inhow do we as a church carry out
our mission and right now we'renot hearing from some
significant portions of synod.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
What would you say to someone who says well, all of
those large churches, they'regrowing because they've
compromised liturgy or somethinglike that.
They're less than Lutheran.
I think that's the label thatgets put on a lot of larger
churches, and so why would wewant to give them greater voice?
They're just going to pollutethe pure doctrine which we have
in the LCMS.
Any thoughts there, kurth?
Speaker 3 (39:43):
Maybe this goes back to my prior approval, anx, but
if you are my brother or sisterin the Lutheran Church, you are
my brother or sister in theLutheran Church.
I'm probably wrong about this.
I will just tell you.
I am so thankful that there are1.8 million of us who I think
on 98% of the things.
(40:03):
We all agree on all of that,and my default is I tend to
focus on the 98% of the thingswe all agree on all of that, and
my default is I tend to focuson the 98% we agree on, not the
2% we disagree on.
You used an example, so I guessI'll go there.
Tim, I was raised in atraditional liturgy.
St John is generally atraditional liturgy.
(40:24):
The congregation that my wifeand I belonged to when we first
got married was morecontemporary or blended.
She has her preference, I havemy preference.
Here's the thing.
Why do I care?
I don't, I don't and this isgoing to drive some people nuts
I just don't care about liturgy.
It's not my thing, don't get mewrong.
I care about the liturgy, butthe style of liturgy.
(40:46):
If someone wants to have apraise quote unquote a praise
band, and if someone wants tohave a choir, I want to have
them both and I'm not sure whywe can't just say look, they're
confessing, they're preaching,they're carrying out the
sacraments.
We're on the same page on thisand more people are being
(41:08):
reached.
I know I get some peoplecrosswise with that, but the
stuff that matters is not aboutI love the organ.
I also know there wasn't anorgan in Galilee in 50 AD right.
There was a time when the organ.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
yeah, there was a time when the organ was a
contemporary instrument.
Yeah, and you could go back.
Okay, why don't we havetambourines?
Tambourines, I think, predatethe organ Right, so is that more
than tambourines are in theBible?
So it's just, yeah, it's asilly.
Why are we fighting about it?
Speaker 3 (41:42):
It seems to me, what we are disagreeing about or
judging based upon if those arefair words is, as I understand
it, often adiaphora, not thecore confessional pieces.
And we keep raising thethreshold for what it is to be
Lutheran, just like we keepraising the threshold for what
it is to be missional or remnantor whatever Versus.
(42:04):
Let's just say, hey, here'swhat the confessions say, here's
what Scripture says, let's movewith it, let's go with it, hey.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Kurth.
This has been so much fun.
Have you received last questionhave you received any
resolutions that surprised you?
You're like, wow, I didn't seethat one coming.
Any surprising resolutions.
Speaker 3 (42:22):
You know, for the clearinghouse, tim, I don't know
that we received one thatsurprised me as much as the ones
I've heard about that have beensubmitted by various groups and
that's fine, that's such, Iwill say.
The one that is intriguing tome and is going to continue to
(42:42):
be a much representation ofcongregations of laity, is the
voice of commission ministers inhow the Synod does its work.
And, coming from the Nebraskadistrict where we have a strong
Lutheran education background,lots of schools, high schools
etc.
We care about that very much.
(43:04):
You know, we just have comingfrom Concordia, nebraska, which
you know has trained more churchworkers than any other
institution and synod.
We've got a lot of folks who areprofessional church workers,
who are carrying out theday-to-day work of the church
and to not try and find a way,even if we don't want to give
(43:25):
them a vote on the final matter,but to not build and find a way
, even if we don't want to givethem a vote on the final matter,
but to not build in structuresthat say, hey, we want the input
of DCEs, who I call thesergeant majors of the church.
They just get stuff done right,but the DCEs and the teachers
and parish musicians anddeaconesses and others and say
we want your input, we want yourthoughts, we want to know what
(43:46):
you think about that.
We've got to.
I would like us to find a wayto have their perspectives and
voices have an intentional partof the process, not just well,
they're amongst the, they can'teven vote.
They're amongst the laity, theydon't.
They just get to come andobserve.
There's got to be some workdone on that issue for the
benefit of our church body.
(44:06):
I think.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
I'm with you there and we're going to have.
I got some guests coming onthat are going to talk
specifically to that topic inthe near future, so that'll be
good.
What we've done in the PacificSouthwest District and started
last convention and willcontinue here this summer, is
they have an advisory vote.
So there's a resolution thatcomes and we go to the
(44:29):
commission ministers first andthe jury says, or panel says,
and then we see, well, kind ofwhat they say.
Here was a fascinating thing inour district.
Pretty much the lady and thepastors went right along with it
.
So they were very influential.
You know, they have aperspective and that was one way
in our district we figured outhow to get their voice to count.
So there's a number ofdifferent ways, but it's not a
(44:51):
way to not keep thisconversation going, especially
for a group of leaders in ourchurch body who feel like their
voice has not mattered for anumber of years now.
Frankly, I don't know backhistorically.
I don't know that there's everbeen.
I don't know if the commissionminister's voice has ever had a
fair weight in the Senate.
Do you have any from a historyperspective there, kurth?
(45:12):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (45:13):
I don't know, but my impression is that no, it has
not, but I don't know that.
Speaker 2 (45:19):
Yeah, no, very good.
Hey, Kurth, if people want toconnect with you, you left your
email.
Would you just leave that again?
And people want to connect withyou?
You left your email.
Would you just leave that again?
Speaker 3 (45:25):
and people want to get connected to the
Clearinghouse, yeah it's KBrashear, k-b-r-a-s-h-e-a-r, at
rembolt R-E-M-B-O-L-T.
Lawfirmcom, and that's a greatway to get ahold of me.
Also, 402-405-0831 is my directline, and so that just comes to
(45:47):
me, so they're welcome to giveme a call as well.
Speaker 2 (45:50):
I left my cell phone on a podcast a while back on the
line with my friend, brianStecker, and I had a brother
right when it got released.
He called me, he texted me andhe goes.
I really disagree with you onsomething and that I'm going to
leave that with some suspense.
He's going to be a guest on apodcast coming up here really
soon because all truth has beenrevealed.
(46:12):
All truth has been revealed andwe don't need to be afraid to
enter into difficultconversations and to experience
challenge.
That's just the way it works.
That's the way it works in yourlaw firm.
That's the way it works here atChrist Greenfield we're praying
.
That's the way it worksfunctionally in a healthy, jesus
centered way in the LCMS.
It's a, it's a yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (46:30):
No, I just let me be clear.
So that phone number I left ismy landline.
It's a direct landline.
So I don't want someone don'ttext me and think what a jerk he
didn't respond to me.
Just call and leave a message.
Speaker 2 (46:41):
So there you go, leave a message.
There you go, there you go.
This is Lead Time, like,subscribe, comment and comments
really help move theconversation forward, even if
you disagree with something wesaid.
We're all growing up into Jesus, who is our leader and our Lord
.
It's a good day.
Go and make it a great day.
Grateful for you, kurt, thanksbuddy, thanks Tim.
Speaker 1 (46:58):
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(47:21):
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This is Lead Time.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Welcome to Lead Time, tim Allman here.
Jack Calberg is still away onvacation Today.
I pray.
The joy of Jesus is yourstrength.
As I get to talk with Kurth ABrashear, let me tell you about
him.
He's a partner at Rembolt.
Ludkey, ludkey, how am I saying?
Speaker 3 (00:17):
that right, ludkey, ludkey, ludkey.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
There we go, llp.
He is an attorney Erniemulti-practice law firm with
offices in Lincoln and Seward.
Shout out to Concordia,nebraska Go Bulldogs.
His practice is focused onestate planning, nonprofit and
exempt organizations, politicalsubdivisions, municipalities Wow
and corporate and commerciallaw.
During his nearly 30 years inthe legal field, kurth has
(00:40):
served as legal counsel formultiple religious organizations
and charities and regularlypresents on legal issues facing
ministries.
That leads us in the directionwe're going today.
Prior to joining Rumble, kurthwas the VP for Institutional
Advancement at ConcordiaUniversity, nebraska, where he
oversaw fundraising, alumnirelations, church relations and
(01:00):
community relations for theuniversity.
During his tenure, generoussupporters partnered with the
university to achieve numerousfundraising successes.
You were in advancementdevelopment, praise God.
He also served as theuniversity's first general
counsel, so I'm just going topause right there.
Kurth, what does that mean thatyou were a general counsel for
(01:21):
Concordia, nebraska?
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Yeah, so that means I was the in-house attorney.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Legal attorney Legal attorney yes so beautiful.
So he's a lifelong member of theLCMS.
He's a member at St JohnLutheran Church in Seward.
That's where I worshipped in myfour years there as a bulldog.
He serves as an elder.
He's concluding his service onwow, the Constitution and
Handbook Committee of theNebraska District of the LCMS,
and he sits on the board ofdirectors for the Lutheran
(01:45):
Ministry Foundation and he'spreviously served as a
congregational president,district convention delegate
Thank you for doing thatDistrict convention
parliamentarian and attendedseveral synodical conventions.
He's got a Bachelor of Arts inEnglish and History at Valpo and
he's got a jurist doctor.
I'm always learning new things.
(02:06):
What is a jurist doctor?
Is that a legal thing as well,kurt?
Speaker 3 (02:09):
It just means you're a lawyer.
You've graduated from a lawschool.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
I'm learning new things all the time.
So he's married to his wife.
Jessica is a school counselorand he has a daughter who is a
director of Christian education.
And yeah, oh, she is your wife.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Jessica, my father-in-law was a DCE, so yeah
, how old are your kids?
Speaker 2 (02:31):
You have three kids.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
One's going to be 17 coming up, another one who's
just turned 13.
And then a 10-year-old who'sgot a birthday next month.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Hey, all right.
So in the thick of it, you areright in the thick of it.
You are right in the thick ofit, bro.
Right with me, I got three highschoolers.
So we we are.
We need all the prayers we canreceive as we're raising up
these sweet little ones.
So let's get into why we'retalking today.
How did you develop a heart tohelp LCMS voters in particular
be informed about Senateopportunities for growth?
(03:03):
Tell that story, Kurt.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Yeah, this might be a little broader than one wants,
but I, you know, tim, and Iappreciate the invitation to be
with you today.
So I'm a lifelong member ofMissouri Synod congregations,
baptized in the church.
Pacific Hills Lutheran in Omaha, congregation I grew up in,
went to Lutheran grade school inOmaha.
St Paul Lutheran went toLutheran grade school in Omaha.
(03:25):
St Paul Lutheran went toValparaiso University, you know,
came back and joined anotherLCMS congregation, beautiful
Savior in La Vista.
And so I, you know, at marryinga daughter, my wife being the
daughter of a DCE, I would sayI'm just Lutheran, right and in
it and thankful for that.
Parents who modeled the faith,took us to church, cared about
(03:47):
school, cared about our growing,all the things, but it was
really as an adult and a couple,three things I would say really
kind of lead to this, of thisidea of the passion for the
mission, not just my own faithlife, but what do we do as the
church?
One of those was I was invited,thankfully, to be on the Board
(04:10):
of Directors for ConcordiaFoundation, for your alma
mater's foundation, and it wasinteresting.
That was when I was practicinglaw in Omaha and it was just
interesting to me to see how somany discussions about what was
going on in Seward at some pointinvolved the words church
workers and non-church workersand enrollment, recruitment,
(04:30):
right, what is Concordia thereto prepare them for?
And I've never been a big fanof defining people by what they
aren't, and for me it reallycame down to why can't it be
both?
And some of this comes probablyfrom going to Valpo, where that
was the first time in my lifethat I what kind of Lutheran are
you?
Are you LCMS or are you ELCA?
(04:51):
Right?
And those were questions Ididn't deal with in Omaha.
That was a Catholic town andyou were just a Lutheran.
So for my experience, and thereason I started supporting your
alma mater, even though Ididn't go there, was because it
is such a clear witness of whoChrist is.
And it's preparing churchworkers, yes, but preparing
(05:11):
laity to also serve and witnessin the vocations God's called
them to, like me, and I thoughtthat was really important.
There needs to be a focus onthe fact that all these
vocations are given to us by God.
It's what you know.
Who's writing our check, who'spaying us, is the difference.
So that was one just as apremise.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
The second was Can we stop right there, kurt?
I just have to double down onthat.
I am doing every becauselanguage matters, you're in law,
language matters, you get paidby the minute.
You were just saying you knowon the words you use.
So if we could, if we could besensitive toward the fact of, if
we say, professional churchworker, that that's a loaded
(05:51):
phrase that I think in somecircles maybe lowers the mission
, the multi-vocational missionof the everyday follower of
Jesus who is sent out to makeJesus known in the marketplace
based on the gifts that he'sgiven.
I think we're all the church.
Some just happen to be paid toadvance the mission of Jesus.
(06:12):
So if we went to there'sleaders all over the place,
they're paid or non-paid by thechurch, and let's give elevated
credence to those that are notpaid to advance the mission.
There was no economic enginethat was set up to advance the
cause of the early church.
In the book of Acts theyestablished that over time, to
be sure, but early on everyonesent out non-paid.
(06:32):
Go figure it out, you know.
So anyway, I think theprofessional church worker,
church worker, non-church worker, we're all the church, for
goodness sake, and I thinkConcordia Nebraska does a great
job at making that very, veryevident in their mission.
That's what I experienced.
That was ingrained in me some25 years ago going through
undergrad.
So praise be to God.
Just had to double down on howtrue that is.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
No, I appreciate that and I agree, we're all church
workers, the priesthood of allbelievers.
It's just some of us areprofessionally trained to be
that and some of us are doing itas a matter of our faith.
But it's all important and Ithink one of the tensions that
came out of those conversationswas again, as I kind of said,
it's always why do we have tochoose?
Let's do both, let's prepareboth to go out and witness a
(07:20):
member of Beautiful Savior andhad great pastors there, keith
Grimm most prominently, whoreally did a wonderful job with
the congregation of talkingabout emphasizing when God calls
you, are you prepared to follow, are you prepared to go where
he might call you on the missionthat he's going to give to you,
as we've even just kind oftalked about.
(07:41):
Right, we all get differentmissions, as we were talking
about before this, and so thatwas important to me.
And then, finally, a dearfriend, in terms of this passion
for the mission of the church,because for me it really comes
down to understanding better asa adult than I did as a child,
(08:01):
that God wants all to be saved.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
And it's our job.
He doesn't need us to, but itis our task to witness his son
and what he did for them.
And a man I respect greatly, alayman, once said to me, kurth,
if we believe what we say, webelieve about what happens to
those who do not believe, weshould be on fire for getting as
(08:25):
many people introduced toChrist as possible.
And so if you put for me, tim,if you put those three things
together, it really comes outthen to.
So how do we as the church,both at the local level, but
then as the Missouri Synodnationally, how do we do that
work to witness, to give theSpirit the opportunity to work
(08:48):
through us to have as manypeople saved as possible?
And that's probably where mypassion for the mission of the
church at large comes from.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
So how did that passion for the mission lead you
toward kind of the synodical?
We're in convention season,right?
Many of my brothers, you know,pastors and laymen and women
have been serving at districtconventions and we're heading
into 2026.
The synodical convention willbe here in Phoenix in July.
(09:18):
I think it was pretty cheap iswhy they're coming here in July.
Nonetheless, good stewardship,praise God.
So tell us about theClearinghouse concept for
district and synod resolutions,because there's a lot.
I know a lot of pastors arelike, oh my goodness, I've been
to the last three synodical.
That's like the least likelything, and I've found the
process kind of fascinating.
Is there a room for growth?
(09:39):
For sure, but it's a complexthing.
A national church body with 35districts, a lot of different
contexts, right, and so we needsome who can help us curate some
of the best resolutions for usto continue to advance the
mission of Jesus in the LCMS.
So talk about yourclearinghouse concept, kurt.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
Yeah, and if I can I'll go one step back.
You're talking about.
I mean, in my experience frombeing at Concordia and just in
general, there are a lot ofpastors who are talking about
these issues.
I mean the ordained ministersdo.
I think the problem is thelaity doesn't and the laity's
not involved in it.
And that's my view, tim, isthat our polity is set up so
(10:18):
that the congregations have anequal vote with the ordained
ministers right.
But we have way too manycongregations who have just kind
of said, hey, whatever pastorsays is good, you know, or we're
not even going to get reallyinvolved in this because it's
church politics and we need weneed laity to be involved.
But it is harder for laity whoare doing their work nine to
(10:39):
five during the week and othersto say I don't know what this
prior approval is about.
In St Louis that seems like asynod thing and I'll leave it to
them, and so part of it was anencouragement, one of I'd like
to see congregations use theirvoice more to provide some
balance to our system.
So it's not just the pastorshaving input on these things, it
(11:01):
is the congregations as wellhaving input on these things.
It is the congregations as well.
The second part is just bynature of being non-hierarchical
, in terms of at least how we'restructured.
You know, we end up with abunch of congregations who are
in their silo.
They're in their mission field,they're doing their work, but
they may not be paying attentionto or even aware of what's
going on, you know, in adistrict across the country or
(11:24):
in a congregation even acrosstown.
And so the clearinghouse was atleast my idea of having been
blessed through my work atConcordia to get to know people
across the Senate, across thenation, of at least saying to
folks hey, let's have a placewhere people can bring up
resolutions or ideas they mighthave and share those with others
(11:45):
so there can be feedback.
So maybe there are ideas thatare presented in the Nebraska
district and in PacificSouthwest and in the Atlantic
and in Florida, georgia, becausepeople are now aware, yeah,
that's it, I just hadn't thoughtabout that.
That's a good idea.
Let's bring that forward to ourdistrict convention and see.
And so it was trying to getpeople connected who I think
it's just not our nature as asynod to really interact with
(12:08):
each other much beyond somechannels like what you're doing
with United LeadershipCollective and others.
We just don't have a lot ofcross communication.
We have a lot of up-downcommunication and that makes it
harder to organize or to bringthings to a convention.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Yeah, no, that's definitely true.
So if people are listeningright now and they want to get
connected to the clearinghouse,I normally wait till the end,
but just drop that.
Where can they connect it?
Speaker 3 (12:32):
Well, if they're interested in something, they
can email me.
So kbrashear, b-r-a-s-h-e-a-rat rembolt R-E-M-B-O-L-T.
Lawfirmcom.
Or you just look up KurthBrashear in Google.
There's only one of me, soGoogle pretty much finds me
anyway.
But I'd be happy to forward tothem anything that was submitted
(12:54):
so they could think about that.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Amen, amen, all right .
Well, we've talked on thispodcast a fair amount about the
prior approval process andyou've thought about it a fair
amount as well.
What do you think needs tochange in that?
And I always have to say, likethis is not an attack on any one
person in leadership, like thisis a system that's been created
(13:16):
through bylaw changes over time, and I think bylaws need to
change to give greatertransparency to how the prior
approval process happens,connected to our concordias and
to our seminaries.
So would you talk about that alittle bit, kurt?
Speaker 3 (13:31):
Yeah, I would say Tim , first, as an attorney who
deals in a lot of nonprofitissues, one of the challenges we
have in the church is we aretrying to paper trust.
You cannot create enough bylaws, enough constitution provision,
enough policies to enoughdetail, to the point that we all
kind of joke about.
You know well, let's see what5.3.3.1.2.5 says about this.
(13:55):
Right, you can never, you cannever paper trust.
So there's got to be an elementof we're going to trust each
other, that we're all, we allconfess, share a belief in the
confessions, know Christ to bethe sole means of salvation, et
cetera.
And I'm not saying et cetera,dismiss it, I'm just we all know
it.
Right, we know it.
(14:15):
I think that.
But that mindset has permeatedand continues in the synod from
way back of this sense of wewant to make sure, we want to be
certain and prior approval, Ithink has probably and I'll
defer as a lay person I think ithas a lot of merit to it in the
sense of we want to make surethat the people who are leading
(14:36):
our institutions and teachingtheology and in certain
positions of influence orimportance, that they do share
our confession and are going todo those things.
Yep, that makes perfect senseFor sure.
From my perspective, theproblem is and I know it's been
(14:57):
talked about on this podcast andothers but there's no
transparency at all of what arethe standards that are being
used, and a lack of transparencyfosters mistrust.
It fosters not putting the bestconstruction on things.
It leads one to wonder.
It may cause us to startslandering or thinking about
(15:19):
those sinfully I mean in oursinful condition, and I'll use
my example.
So when Brian Friedrich left togo to Concordia St Paul, he was
president.
When I came to Concordia,nebraska, he left.
I was still on staff there.
I was blessed to be nominated byseveral people for that
presidential search topotentially be a president at
(15:43):
Concordia, nebraska.
Now, god in his wisdom did notinclude me in that, but the
point that happened after sayingyes, I'd agree to be nominated,
I'd submit the informationright, is all I get after that
is simply you're not movingforward.
You're not on the, you're not,you're not a pastor, you're not
on the list.
But there's no reason why.
(16:03):
And I'm going to tell you, tim,honestly, that was one of those
moments that's reallychallenging when you're a person
of faith of well, am I notLutheran enough?
Do I not believe enough,because no one talked to me, no
one interviewed me, no one knows.
I put down all my bona fidesand I have no idea.
(16:24):
Now let me be clear BernardBoll, god has called exactly the
right person to be at Concordia, nebraska.
But we have to have somethingthat says what are the standards
we're using, what is theprocess that was applied?
And, frankly, the other part ofit is, I think, a sense of if
(16:46):
we're saying, especially withpastors or professional church
workers, rostered church workers, if they're not sufficient for
prior approval, do we not haveto ask then, why are they in the
positions they're in now andare there any issues that might
need to be addressed with that?
I know of one instance at leastwith a pastor who was on a
(17:08):
prior approval list to teach ata seminary but wasn't on a prior
approval list to teach theologyat a Concordia.
I don't understand how thathappens.
And so we've got to.
The only way we can function asa church body as well together,
as God would want us to do tocarry out the mission, is that
(17:30):
we have trust, transparency,understanding of what are the
processes that are being usedand what are the standards that
are being applied.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Yeah, I 100% agree, praying for that, praying for
resolutions toward that end.
You and I both have experienceswhere some synod workers
experience adverse outcomes forchallenging the existing status
of the synod, challenging thestatus quo.
How did we get to the placewhere even lovingly challenging
(18:00):
the status quo became apunishable offense?
No one could lead in the localchurch, at least not lead well,
if they never challenged thestatus quo.
But it feels very hierarchical.
It doesn't feel congregationaland I know congregations are
messy.
But the synod in conventionexists to care for, steward,
(18:23):
raise up leaders for the nextgeneration so that all would
know Jesus, to advance the causeof Christ connected to our
confessions, which I believe isthe best exposition of scripture
.
And yet, if you look atsomething like prior approval,
like pastoral formation, likeour passive, aggressive
tendencies in synod, if youlovingly speak about that like I
(18:47):
can speak about it because I'min a congregation that says Tim,
there's some things that needto change for us to advance our
mission here in the East Valleyof Phoenix and if it's going to
bless us, maybe it could blessother unique contexts as well.
And so, yeah, 20% of your timeis going to be spent talking
about some difficult things inin the synod, let's, let's get
after it Like I'm.
(19:07):
That's my context, that's mycharge from my board.
But if I were in another chairin one of our institutions,
there is no way I could have hadall the conversations I've had
up to this point.
I'm covered by my local churchand there has to be at some
point.
I don't care if you agree oneverything we've said.
That is not according to theway of Jesus, that we couldn't
(19:29):
be honest with our brother orsister.
Where there's opportunities forgrowth, sin is ever before me,
right?
I mean, there's alwaysopportunities to change.
I don't know how we got to thisand I think it's the passive,
aggressive tendency.
I see you, but then I'm goingto.
I talk not to you, but I'lltalk about you to other people
and this I was just talking witha brother, but I'll talk about
you to other people.
(19:49):
And this I was just talking witha brother, talking about how
like people like each other.
You know, I like to be aroundpeople that are like me and I
think that's like the root of mysin, because sin separates us
from God.
God should have no right.
He should have.
There's no conceivable way thatthe God of the universe, who is
wholly other, would make me abroken sinner, the most other to
(20:12):
God, his dwelling place, histemple.
So God has breached that gap,he's bridged it.
We as the church are called todo the exact same thing.
And if we can't do that withour brothers and sisters in the
LCMS, what chance do we havewith those that are far from the
Lord in our community?
So there we go, rant done.
What's your thought, kurt?
Speaker 3 (20:31):
This is just the adult version of what we, at
least in Nebraska, call theLutheran parking lot
conversation right After thecongregational meeting, where no
one says anything because theydon't want to be risk anything
or be judged or say, oh, you'renot as Lutheran as you think you
are, and then we'll go out inthe conversation and the little
groups will form and talk abouthow much they don't like
(20:52):
whatever just happened and wehave to find a way to be able to
have conversation, to havediscussion, to be transparent
with each other because weconfess we are all sinners and
have fallen short of the graceof God and none of us is not
that right.
But the last two places in myexperience, just speaking for me
(21:16):
, the last two places in thesynod really, where it's okay to
articulate yourself withoutrepercussion, are either a
congregation, because thecongregations are still kind of,
you know, in their position inour structure, and for laity,
because you know I'm not goingto get excommunicated, I don't
think, from St John for being onyour podcast or for sharing my
(21:38):
thoughts and others right.
But for the rostered workers, Imean, there has been a, for
whatever reason, has developed.
There has become a culture ofconcern about what will I say?
What's recorded, what's shared,what is somebody watching from
some other place who isn'tinvolved in my ministry, but
(22:01):
they'll make comments about that.
Or I've been blessed to havemany friends who work at
different levels of the Senateand they will talk about folks
that they know have read theirsocial media feed or something
and been like, well, why wereyou with this person?
Or why did you attend thatconference?
And it's, what are we doinghere?
(22:23):
I mean we need to engage with asinful, broken world.
The church is sinful and brokenas well.
All of us are saved.
We got to step back from amoment of saying, well, I'm the
right kind of Lutheran and Timyou're not, or Tim you saying
that to me.
And more about what are weconfessing together, what are we
sharing and how are we going todo the mission of the church of
(22:45):
witnessing Christ to others inmany and various ways.
But we are at the point andmaybe this goes to.
There are things that I've beenblessed to know because of the
vocations God has called me toover my time.
The majority of the lay peoplein the Missouri Synod have no
awareness that this is what'sgoing on.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Well, let's make them aware.
Speaker 3 (23:09):
We have to.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
We have to so we have to.
That's what we're working to do.
Healthy organizations, healthychurches, healthy businesses.
They handle difficultconversations well.
They spur one another on towardlove and good deeds.
If we see something in acoworker, a partner, and we
don't say something, that's likethe worst position.
(23:31):
I say something out of love fora brother, because I care for
them and I want them to grow,and as they grow and their teams
grow, the congregation or theorganization grows.
That's just how it works.
Jesus engaged in difficultconversations all the time.
What's your favorite?
This is a little bit of atangent, but what's your
favorite leadership book forunderstanding how to have
(23:54):
constructive, difficultconversations?
Is there one that comes top ofmind to you, Kurth?
Speaker 3 (23:59):
I don't know, that's probably not a genre.
That's been my thing.
The Bible is good.
Well, yeah, see, now I'm notLutheran enough because I didn't
say that first.
No give me a break.
That's the problem.
I don't read a ton of those.
Maybe I should.
I think the Bible is.
I mean, look, matthew 18 is allabout leadership.
(24:22):
It is about how do we deal withone another.
How do we acknowledge wherewe've been hurt by or wronged
someone else, and how do we dealwith one another.
How do we acknowledge wherewe've been hurt by or wronged
someone else and how do we showgrace to each other?
And, frankly, there's no leaderwho's effective anywhere, who
can get by with saying to thepeople they're leading do it my
(24:42):
way, just because and that's Imean that works in your family,
maybe until you have teenagerslike at least from my experience
(25:08):
but you've got to be able toacknowledge.
And that works in your family,maybe until you have teenagers,
at least from my experience butyou've got to hurt them To hear
those words.
You know, I forgive you.
Or to forgive somebody ispowerful and it has far more
(25:31):
effect than simply saying well,you know you did this wrong and
therefore we can't trust you todo that again.
We've got to find a way toGod's in charge If I believe in
the God that I do, which is thecreator of the universe, who
does not need me but does careabout me, then you know we keep
thinking that somehow we've gotto handle this for God and we're
going to have to do all thesethings.
Let's trust.
Let's trust him one, but thenlet's also acknowledge what we
(25:54):
confess, which is and I am apoor, miserable sinner in need
of grace in all relationshipsand we don't show enough grace
to each other.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Yeah, hey, I've been.
I've been doing a lot ofthinking on sins of omission,
right?
One of my favorite leadershipbooks is Leadership and
Self-Deception, and it's writtenby the Arbinger Group.
It's a classic, now probably 20some years old, and it talks
about being in the box toward aperson or an organization
through self-deception, prettymuch through trying to justify
(26:29):
yourself as more righteous towin, and we end up putting
ourselves and others in a boxwhen we lie to ourselves like we
have no contribution towardwhatever the dysfunction is.
And confession they don't usethis word because it's a secular
book, but confession andabsolution is literally what
gets you out of the box.
My intention toward you wasgood, but the way it got
(26:54):
executed was poor.
Will you forgive me and let'sgrow up?
Let's grow up together.
This is the call of theChristian, and there's no end to
sins of omission, right?
I mean, there's always theconversation, and I think this
is the greatest sin in the LCMSright now the unhad conversation
or the fear of having aconversation where you could be
(27:15):
challenged.
So let's just silence it.
If we don't say anything aboutit, it doesn't exist.
If we don't acknowledge thepower structures that are in
place, it does and the powerstructures start in the local
church.
Let's be honest, right, it does.
And the power structures startin the local church.
Let's be honest, right, right.
The power of pastor is are theyworking through, with and for
the people, or are they workingover?
(27:36):
And the apostle paul goes offon this and jesus obviously
gives us a great example.
This is the way of the crossyou are leading through people,
with people, for them, not over,not over them.
You're not an overlord, and I'mthinking even now, even the
language of an over do we useover shepherd, we use under
shepherd, for we as pastors,right, we take the low place and
(27:57):
that moves from our homes, outof the community and there,
before the grace of God, go.
I as a leader, if I'm notworking with a team of people,
bringing them together, hearingall perspectives, casting a
vision, seeing the visiontweaked, dreaming new dreams,
trying to execute those dreams,if I'm trying to do that solely
as a pastor, kurth, I got nochance.
No chance of caring for people,discipling people and
(28:21):
multiplying them in mission tolaunch new things, if I'm not
working through the priesthoodof all believers, I'm not
working.
That's my ultimate call.
Ephesians, chapter four equipthe saints for love and good
deeds.
So yeah, we've got room forgrowth.
Anything more to say there?
Speaker 3 (28:32):
Well, and I just want you didn't?
You asked about a leadershipbook and I'll have to come up
with one sometime.
I'll have to read one maybe,but I will say, um, tim, for me
one of the key examples ofleadership that the first time I
saw it have latched on to.
I don't know if you're ahistory guy or not, but on D-Day
, dwight Eisenhower wrote amessage, taking responsibility
(28:57):
in advance in case the invasionfailed.
The invasion of France failed.
Took total said it was my call,my decision, my responsibility.
Right and to your point.
I fully agree with that and Iwould say that's one of the
aspects of my prayer for theSenate is we see more leaders
take responsibility.
As I have always said to teamsthat I've had, we'll between you
(29:19):
and I, if you make a mistake,we'll talk about that, but to
anybody outside of our team,it's my responsibility and I
will be the only one who takesthe blame for it.
And how often do we not seewhere things don't go right,
where we don't see those who arethe leaders take responsibility
?
That makes a huge difference interms of culture as well.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Well, the inverse of that is the political tendency,
because the political tendencyis to boast in what I do and
then, when things go bad, well,it was that guy, I inherited
this or whatever, right?
No, no, no Good, jesus-centered, cross-centered leadership.
If it goes well, it's the HolySpirit, it's God, it's the team,
it's us, and if it goes poorly,I take responsibility.
(30:04):
So, yeah's, let's work towardthat and you also promote I'm
going to get into this termlimits, I haven't talked about
this a lot Term limits forcircuit, district and synod
leaders.
Why are term limits, especiallyin the political engine which
is the 35 districts of the LCMSand then the synodical gathering
(30:24):
?
Why do you think term limitsare healthy?
Speaker 3 (30:27):
From my perspective, one of it's polity, but it's
also experience.
So, nebraska district we are inthe minority.
We do have term limits on ourpresident, for instance, and
I've seen in my adult lifetimeGod has blessed the Nebraska
district with Gene Gerke andthen Russ Sommerfeld and now
Richard Snow.
I mean he has provided greatleaders and there is a mindset.
(30:53):
From a faith perspective, Iwould say term limits are the
thing that cause us, as sinfulhumans, to get over the fact
that any of us is irreplaceableand it's a God we're going to
say you know, russ Sommerfeldhas done a great job as your
district president.
Who are you going to lead us tohave be the next district
president?
Right, none of us isirreplaceable.
(31:13):
So there's a perspective of,from my sense, god is going to
work, no matter what.
The other part is just,especially at the synodical
level, and it's not aboutPresident Harrison, it's not the
change.
People forget that the changein how we elect occurred before
President Harrison was electedthe first time, but when we
(31:36):
moved away from having electionsat the convention.
We are yeah, we're by default,we're almost an incumbent
protection system You're goingto.
I mean, there just aren't thatmany pastors who are well known
in the synod that once somebodyis synodical president, really
they're probably by defaultgoing to be synodical president
(31:56):
absent a major scandal of somekind which, to be clear, has not
happened, is nothing that'sgoing on, but our structure
right now is almost an incumbentdefault election, and so in
advocating for this, both on ourexperience in Nebraska, it's
then saying look, missouri Synod, god will provide us the
(32:18):
presidents we need when we needthem, but let's give more voices
an opportunity to at least havea chance to be elected, and
that may be saying thank you foryour service.
President, your time is done,and now we'll see who God leads
us for the next chapter.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
Yeah, some of the arguments against it that I
heard with district presidents,which I think are kind of funny,
is well, if he's not thedistrict president, what job
will he have?
It's like go be a pastor, Idon't know.
There's plenty of churches.
How many vacancies do you gotright now?
I'm sure one of them are goingto give this guy a shot.
(32:57):
And obviously the same is truefor anybody in a synodical
position as well, like, theheart and soul of what we do is
in the local congregation,connected to the mission, word
and sacrament here.
So yeah, that argument doesn'thold up for me.
Let's go a little bit deeperinto the demographic shift, the
voice that was given to allcongregations and lay
(33:19):
representatives in the synodicalpresident.
And this goes back 15 years agoor so, because it used to be
where you've got a circuit, anda circuit has to have a certain
amount of members in the circuitcongregations, et cetera for
even it to be a circuit thatgets to vote.
One pastor, one lay.
And it used to be that thesynod president was voted on at
(33:42):
the very, at the very beginningof the synod convention and when
and when President Kishnick wasunelected, he still had to lead
the entire convention.
I had an idea the other day whydon't we put why don't it be
the end of the convention sothat whoever is the person
that's leading it doesn't havethis kind of shame?
Because I was voted out justthe end of the convention.
(34:03):
Then you could just kind ofmove on with it.
But when we gave voice to everycongregation and as the average
size of congregations havedeclined, you got a pastor.
If you got a lay person, yourcongregation has the same weight
in choosing the next presidentof 40 people as a congregation
of 4000 people that we don'thave a house of representatives
(34:23):
in the LCMS right, it's likesolely a Senate.
So it makes it very.
This is one of the challengesfor I as a larger church pastor,
like where is our voice?
And I?
So I'm just.
While I'm on this kick, I'lljust say look at the floor
committees, look at how many ofthe synodical floor committees
include leaders who are inmedium to larger size
(34:44):
congregations that are in churchplanning movements, multi-site
movements.
You will not find many.
You will not find many andthat's unfortunate.
So anything more to say towardthe synodical president election
Kurt?
Speaker 3 (34:57):
You know, from my perspective it would be great to
get it back at the convention,and whether that's at the
beginning or the end, I stillthink it's better at the
convention when we don't have.
I mean, if I remember correctly, the last presidential election
the majority of congregationsdid not actually vote, you know,
that's just.
At least, if you're at thesynodical convention, the
delegates there are typicallyvoting right Engaged.
(35:18):
But we have, we are still usinga system we designed I mean
conceptually at least.
We designed in the 1860s, youknow, even in the 1900s, where
you had no congregation, had2000 members, no congregation
had 20 members.
I mean, you had so many Germanscoming over that they probably
(35:39):
had 200 people in that area,right, and there was a lot more
uniformity in that.
But you know, we're at a pointnow where and I'm not saying big
is the rationale, I'm talkingabout the number of people who
are involved.
But my congregation, you knowwe're one of the youth group has
180 members in it.
It's a big church, it's largerthan over half of the
(36:02):
congregations in the Synod, youknow.
So it's, how do we get somevoice that reflects all of us
amongst the 1.8 million MissouriSynod Lutherans?
Oh well, we've had acongregation here since, you
know, 1875, and there may be 20people left and they're
faithfully the word andsacraments, but their vote is
(36:24):
the same as this congregationover here that's been around
since 1960 and has 800worshiping on a weekend.
It seems skewed.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
Yeah, well, I think it is, and hopefully there are
resolutions that try to help usaddress this opportunity.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
I mean one of the you know one of the tip point, tim,
I think one of the again, Ithink a lot of people just
aren't aware of it we have Ithink 13 of the 35 districts
have fewer than 125congregations in them.
Meanwhile, you've got districtslike Michigan and Texas, which
are our largest right, who arenorth of 300.
You have districts that haveNebraska district.
We have about 95,000 baptizedmembers in the Nebraska district
(37:03):
.
We have districts I'm not goingto name them, I'm not going to
pick on it but we have districtswho have 5,000, 6,000 members I
mean we but yet we're treatingthose all as the same thing in
terms of their representation onthe nomination committee for
the Synodical Convention, interms of how we elect, and we've
just got to find a way tobalance that out a bit better.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
Do you know what that I mean?
People are looking for ideas.
You've got some resolutions.
Could you paint the picture,kurth, of how we could get a
greater distribution of voicevote in the Senate?
Any thoughts there?
Speaker 3 (37:39):
Well, I would say there's a resolution actually
that our congregation, st JohnSeward, introduced at the
Nebraska District and it hadcome out of something put into
the clearinghouse that wascalling for congregations with
more than 500 members, or no1,500 members, to be pulled out
(38:00):
of electoral circuits and havetheir own vote at the synodical
convention.
Because if you think about, Imean, the electoral circuits are
effectively supposed to bebetween 1,000 and 7,000 members
that they represent.
So it was saying let's take atleast these 80 or 90
congregations that are muchlarger and let's have them each
have a pastoral and lay delegateat the synodical convention
(38:23):
without diminishing the others,just to at least add that in for
a greater vote.
Now you know 80 votes or 160representatives out of you know
3,000 that we have at theSynodical Convention.
Is that a huge change?
No, but I think if ChristGreenfield, if St John Seward,
hales, corner, you know, ifthose congregations have a
(38:46):
delegate at the SynodicalConvention who can speak from
the perspective of these largercongregations and who represent
more just by membership,represent more Missouri Synod
Lutherans than many electoralcircuit delegates do, there'd be
a benefit to that More voicesat the table.
To your point, more voicesleads to better discussion.
(39:07):
It gets more people involved inhow do we as a church carry out
our mission and right now we'renot hearing from some
significant portions of synod.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
What would you say to someone who says well, all of
those large churches, they'regrowing because they've
compromised liturgy or somethinglike that.
They're less than Lutheran.
I think that's the label thatgets put on a lot of larger
churches, and so why would wewant to give them greater voice?
They're just going to pollutethe pure doctrine which we have
in the LCMS.
Any thoughts there, kurth?
Speaker 3 (39:43):
Maybe this goes back to my prior approval, anx, but
if you are my brother or sisterin the Lutheran Church, you are
my brother or sister in theLutheran Church.
I'm probably wrong about this.
I will just tell you.
I am so thankful that there are1.8 million of us who I think
on 98% of the things.
(40:03):
We all agree on all of that,and my default is I tend to
focus on the 98% of the thingswe all agree on all of that, and
my default is I tend to focuson the 98% we agree on, not the
2% we disagree on.
You used an example, so I guessI'll go there.
Tim, I was raised in atraditional liturgy.
St John is generally atraditional liturgy.
(40:24):
The congregation that my wifeand I belonged to when we first
got married was morecontemporary or blended.
She has her preference, I havemy preference.
Here's the thing.
Why do I care?
I don't, I don't and this isgoing to drive some people nuts
I just don't care about liturgy.
It's not my thing, don't get mewrong.
I care about the liturgy, butthe style of liturgy.
(40:46):
If someone wants to have apraise quote unquote a praise
band, and if someone wants tohave a choir, I want to have
them both and I'm not sure whywe can't just say look, they're
confessing, they're preaching,they're carrying out the
sacraments.
We're on the same page on thisand more people are being
(41:08):
reached.
I know I get some peoplecrosswise with that, but the
stuff that matters is not aboutI love the organ.
I also know there wasn't anorgan in Galilee in 50 AD right.
There was a time when the organ.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
yeah, there was a time when the organ was a
contemporary instrument.
Yeah, and you could go back.
Okay, why don't we havetambourines?
Tambourines, I think, predatethe organ Right, so is that more
than tambourines are in theBible?
So it's just, yeah, it's asilly.
Why are we fighting about it?
Speaker 3 (41:42):
It seems to me, what we are disagreeing about or
judging based upon if those arefair words is, as I understand
it, often adiaphora, not thecore confessional pieces.
And we keep raising thethreshold for what it is to be
Lutheran, just like we keepraising the threshold for what
it is to be missional or remnantor whatever Versus.
(42:04):
Let's just say, hey, here'swhat the confessions say, here's
what Scripture says, let's movewith it, let's go with it, hey.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Kurth.
This has been so much fun.
Have you received last questionhave you received any
resolutions that surprised you?
You're like, wow, I didn't seethat one coming.
Any surprising resolutions.
Speaker 3 (42:22):
You know, for the clearinghouse, tim, I don't know
that we received one thatsurprised me as much as the ones
I've heard about that have beensubmitted by various groups and
that's fine, that's such, Iwill say.
The one that is intriguing tome and is going to continue to
(42:42):
be a much representation ofcongregations of laity, is the
voice of commission ministers inhow the Synod does its work.
And, coming from the Nebraskadistrict where we have a strong
Lutheran education background,lots of schools, high schools
etc.
We care about that very much.
(43:04):
You know, we just have comingfrom Concordia, nebraska, which
you know has trained more churchworkers than any other
institution and synod.
We've got a lot of folks who areprofessional church workers,
who are carrying out theday-to-day work of the church
and to not try and find a way,even if we don't want to give
(43:25):
them a vote on the final matter,but to not build and find a way
, even if we don't want to givethem a vote on the final matter,
but to not build in structuresthat say, hey, we want the input
of DCEs, who I call thesergeant majors of the church.
They just get stuff done right,but the DCEs and the teachers
and parish musicians anddeaconesses and others and say
we want your input, we want yourthoughts, we want to know what
(43:46):
you think about that.
We've got to.
I would like us to find a wayto have their perspectives and
voices have an intentional partof the process, not just well,
they're amongst the, they can'teven vote.
They're amongst the laity, theydon't.
They just get to come andobserve.
There's got to be some workdone on that issue for the
benefit of our church body.
(44:06):
I think.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
I'm with you there and we're going to have.
I got some guests coming onthat are going to talk
specifically to that topic inthe near future, so that'll be
good.
What we've done in the PacificSouthwest District and started
last convention and willcontinue here this summer, is
they have an advisory vote.
So there's a resolution thatcomes and we go to the
(44:29):
commission ministers first andthe jury says, or panel says,
and then we see, well, kind ofwhat they say.
Here was a fascinating thing inour district.
Pretty much the lady and thepastors went right along with it
.
So they were very influential.
You know, they have aperspective and that was one way
in our district we figured outhow to get their voice to count.
So there's a number ofdifferent ways, but it's not a
(44:51):
way to not keep thisconversation going, especially
for a group of leaders in ourchurch body who feel like their
voice has not mattered for anumber of years now.
Frankly, I don't know backhistorically.
I don't know that there's everbeen.
I don't know if the commissionminister's voice has ever had a
fair weight in the Senate.
Do you have any from a historyperspective there, kurth?
(45:12):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (45:13):
I don't know, but my impression is that no, it has
not, but I don't know that.
Speaker 2 (45:19):
Yeah, no, very good.
Hey, Kurth, if people want toconnect with you, you left your
email.
Would you just leave that again?
And people want to connect withyou?
You left your email.
Would you just leave that again?
Speaker 3 (45:25):
and people want to get connected to the
Clearinghouse, yeah it's KBrashear, k-b-r-a-s-h-e-a-r, at
rembolt R-E-M-B-O-L-T.
Lawfirmcom, and that's a greatway to get ahold of me.
Also, 402-405-0831 is my directline, and so that just comes to
(45:47):
me, so they're welcome to giveme a call as well.
Speaker 2 (45:50):
I left my cell phone on a podcast a while back on the
line with my friend, brianStecker, and I had a brother
right when it got released.
He called me, he texted me andhe goes.
I really disagree with you onsomething and that I'm going to
leave that with some suspense.
He's going to be a guest on apodcast coming up here really
soon because all truth has beenrevealed.
(46:12):
All truth has been revealed andwe don't need to be afraid to
enter into difficultconversations and to experience
challenge.
That's just the way it works.
That's the way it works in yourlaw firm.
That's the way it works here atChrist Greenfield we're praying
.
That's the way it worksfunctionally in a healthy, jesus
centered way in the LCMS.
It's a, it's a yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (46:30):
No, I just let me be clear.
So that phone number I left ismy landline.
It's a direct landline.
So I don't want someone don'ttext me and think what a jerk he
didn't respond to me.
Just call and leave a message.
Speaker 2 (46:41):
So there you go, leave a message.
There you go, there you go.
This is Lead Time, like,subscribe, comment and comments
really help move theconversation forward, even if
you disagree with something wesaid.
We're all growing up into Jesus, who is our leader and our Lord
.
It's a good day.
Go and make it a great day.
Grateful for you, kurt, thanksbuddy, thanks Tim.
Speaker 1 (46:58):
You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the
Unite Leadership Collective.
The ULC's mission is tocollaborate with the local
church to discover, develop anddeploy leaders through biblical
Lutheran doctrine and innovativemethods To partner with us in
this gospel message.
Subscribe to our channel, thengo to theuniteleadershiporg to
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(47:21):
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.
Thanks for listening and staytuned for next week's episode.
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