February 25, 2025 • 55 mins
Rev. Dr. Dale Meyer shares his profound insights on faith, ministry, and the church's evolving role in a rapidly changing world. He emphasizes the significance of building genuine relationships within local congregations and encourages leaders to embrace adaptability while reflecting on their vocation and the importance of community outreach.
• Highlighting the importance of relationships in ministry
• Discussing changes in parish ministry over the decades
• The impact of digital media and the need for local congregations
• Addressing issues of confession and accountability in the church
• Viewing retirement as a spiritual preparation for eternal life
• The necessity of good works as expressions of faith
Find peace, clarity, and companionship for your spiritual journey.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is Lead Time.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Happy day.
Welcome to Lead Time, timAllman.
Here I pray.
The joy of the Lord is yourstrength as you're, wherever you
are.
Maybe you're heading into worktoday after getting, hopefully,
your water, getting somemovement, moving the body, the
temple of the Holy Spirit,hardwired for a day of
significance, meaning andpurpose, centered in your
identity in Jesus, a baptizedson or daughter of the King.
(00:25):
Today I get the privilege ofhanging out with a man that had
a major impact on my life in myfour years at Concordia Seminary
in St Louis, and for many ofyou, you've listened to this man
either in person or online.
This is the one and onlyReverend, dr Dale Meyer.
How you doing, brother.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Thanks, Tim.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Thanks for having me and to the audience.
Take everything he said with agrain of salt.
Well, yeah, no, this is goingto be great.
We're going to have some fun.
I mean your life as anadministrator, leader, pastor,
lutheran hour speaker I meanyou've kind of been.
You've seen a lot of thingsover the decades in the Lutheran
Church Missouri Synod, dr Meyer, and let's just hunt the good
(01:12):
stuff.
As you look back over your lifetop three kind of highlights
you're like, wow God, I got tobe a part of that.
What kind of comes to mindthere, dr Murray?
Speaker 3 (01:23):
Well, I always wanted to be a pastor from from little
on.
But the mountaintop experiences, I have to do a little thinking
about that.
One was the interview of formerpresident Carter.
That was just a mountaintopexperience and I it came to my
mind, you know, with his recentdeath.
(01:45):
And then another one waspreaching in the National
Cathedral for the Navy's annualservice of Thanksgiving and I
was blessed to visit manymilitary bases and appreciate
the work that they do.
But those were mountaintopthings.
Looking back at 52 years, whatstrikes me is the people.
(02:10):
One of my regrets is that I wasin situations where you come in
, speak and go home and Ideveloped many, many good
friends, but I wish I could bewith all of them more and more,
and in heaven I trust we will be.
The other thing, and I learnedthis from Dr Hoffman wherever
(02:35):
the gospel is present, theSpirit is present to do the work
.
I was amazed by the faith thatpeople have work.
I was amazed by the faith thatpeople have, especially in
comparison to our rather oftencushy American Christian life.
So mountaintop, yeah, but itwas the stuff down in the plane
(02:55):
that really shaped me.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Well, yeah, that's the way it works, and the plane
prepares you for some of thosemountaintop experiences, and I
love just working in reverseorder of what you just said.
The reason we got into this, drMeyer, was the people, our love
for people, and seeing peoplecome to come to faith and grow
their faith and experienceamazing things.
(03:19):
And I'm, you know, right in the.
I'm firmly in the middle of mylife journey and it could be
tomorrow, or it could be, couldbe another 40, 40, 50 years, who
knows?
But when I look back over now,18 years of being a pastor, it's
all about, it's all aboutrelationship, isn't it?
It's all about relationship,absolutely.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
A friend of mine was the president of the American
Bible Society.
I was on that board for about adozen years and Dr Habecker
always used to say don't tell mewhat a friend I have in Jesus
until I see what a friend I havein you.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Jeez, that's it.
I'm just curious.
I'd never heard your story ofgetting to interview.
Was this, when you were in theLutheran Hour Speaker, you got
to interview President Carter?
Tell a little bit more of thedetails of that story.
How's that even happened?
Speaker 3 (04:10):
Well, he wrote a number of books and we were
doing the television program onMain Street and one of the ways
we could get guests was when theguest was doing a book tour.
So we invited President Carterformer President Carter to come
on, and at the time I wasactually in Finland, speaking to
(04:33):
a retreat of our LCMS chaplainsnorth of Helsinki, and the word
came that we could interviewformer President Carter in
Memphis, in I don't know howmany days from now.
So I was supposed to go intoRussia but instead I flew back
to Memphis, to the Peabody Hotel, where they have all the ducks
(04:56):
that walk out and jump in thepond, and we did the interview
and it was like talking to myfather-in-law Very nice, very
nice.
But you may appreciate this.
He spoke in paragraphs andspeaking in paragraphs is not
good media and I'm alwaysthinking okay, keep going.
(05:17):
And he paused once and I jumpedinto that pause and I asked a
question and he said I was goingto answer that before you
interrupted me.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
You wouldn't expect anything else from that.
That's the way grandpa'stalking we may have one of those
moments today, you know or afather in law talk.
So yeah, that's amazing, don'tfeel.
Don't feel the pause, butoverall it was a great
experience.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
Oh, great, great.
A real man of faith, as wasdemonstrated these last weeks
with his death and funeralservices.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Yeah, so amazing.
So going back you said youalways wanted to be a pastor and
I guess we share that.
I can't think of anotheroutside of maybe a professional
baseball player or something.
When I was a little guy theLord snuffed out that dream
pretty quick.
But who was it that shaped you?
(06:16):
I mean, for me it was my dad,Pastor Dave Allman.
I've had him on a number oftimes and just got to see the
joy, probably aroundconfirmation, honestly, that I
was like, unless the Lord closesthe door, I think I think I
would love to tell people aboutJesus as a as a pastor.
Do you remember some of thoseformative moments or even people
in with our work in the UnitedLeadership Collective?
(06:37):
We call it the I see in youconversation, where there one
person or multiple people whosaid I see in you, Dr Meyer, the
ability to potentially be aproclaimer of the word.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
It would be multiple.
I'm a fifth generation Lutheranpastor in our family.
Not in a straight line Some ofus are deviant but a fifth
generation.
But I grew up in a 1950s middlemiddle class Christian home.
Go to church every Sunday Iwent to Lutheran grade school.
(07:10):
I don't know what it was, itwas just kind of like the milieu
that I was in and that's what Iwanted to do.
If I hadn't done that, myyouthful ambition was to be a
milkman like my dad and thatwould have been a heck of a
(07:32):
business to get into.
Milk is not a good industryanymore.
So the ministry it worked outokay.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
It worked out okay?
Sure, sure did so.
Your dad was like delivery ofmilk to door-to-door, kind of
the old school style.
Yeah, sure did so.
Your dad was like delivery ofmilk to door to door, kind of
the old school style.
Yeah, tell that.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Yeah, well, he did that for like 30, 40 years, but
he was on a route door to door,house delivery, and then he did
a good job.
So they made him a supervisorover routes, especially over
wholesale routes.
I paid my way through collegeand seminary by delivering milk.
(08:07):
Every summer I went door todoor and then when I proved
myself, I was on wholesaleroutes, going to stores,
factories, dot dot, and to thisday one of my prized possessions
show you how I'm losing it.
I have a Divco milk truck.
Possessions show you how I'mlosing it.
(08:28):
I have a Divco milk truck, 1972Divco milk truck that I had
restored.
That's cool, yeah, so that wasa bucket list thing for me.
But yeah, and to be serious, Ijust get blankety blank tired of
pastors who are straw bosses,who only create programs for
people and hide in the office.
You can't deliver milk and youcan't deliver the milk of the
(08:52):
Word by holing up in an office.
You've got to be out where thepeople are.
And so then I would say thatwhy did I get in the ministry?
I don't know, but thatexperience, the milk truck, was
formative to me.
I'm a blue-collar guy, you cansee that I got my tools here.
(09:12):
I got my books around, I got mytools here.
I'm not in a fancy churchoffice, reverend.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Come on, you bet it's a fancy office in your day, but
you're firmly in a man caveright now and it's for those
that aren't watching or justlistening, you need to look it
up on YouTube because it is theultimate.
We got tools, we got it, we gota heating unit to your, to your
right.
I mean it's a, and then books,and then the Book of Concord, or
some commentaries and stuff.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
They're all around you, the perfect man, you know
you said I had a fancy officeand that's true, but I actually
had two offices the bigpresident's office and the one
in Seacol where I actually didall my work.
That was always a mess.
I use the president's officeeither to entertain an important
visitor or to kick butt, andwhen you're sitting in the
(10:01):
president's office before thepresident comes in, that lowered
the guy's ego and it was prettyeasy to tell him where the hog
eats the cabbage.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
This is going to be so much fun, dr Meyer.
Ok, so let's, let's look at theworld.
Let's do some commentary onkind of where the world is right
now.
A lot has changed.
So, as you look at the world,what has changed the most since
your ministry began?
And you can kind of piggybackthat into how parish ministry
has changed, as you look at it,over, say, the last five decades
(10:38):
, dr Meyer?
Speaker 3 (10:40):
I was born right after World War II, 1947.
So I'm an early baby boomer.
And one of the things that haschanged and I think we've all
come to realize this recently isthe breakdown of the post-World
War II international order.
The United States did amarvelous thing for the
(11:07):
well-being of the world with aMarshall Plan, with the way we
rehabilitated those people thatwe have been fighting against,
the way we staved off the SovietUnion.
Well, that's collapsed andthere's a number of reasons.
But we're seeing the collapsealso in the United States, and
(11:27):
I'm not talking necessarily proor anti-President Trump right
now, but he typifies thisworldwide breakdown in an
international order that has,among other things, enabled the
church to do its work inrelative peace around most of
the world.
I mean, there are alwaysexceptions, there are always
(11:49):
flashpoints and so on.
So that's the huge change thatI've seen in my lifetime.
Bringing it closer to home isthe digital revolution.
You know there have been four,three major communication
revolutions in the history ofthe world.
(12:09):
The first was the creation ofthe alphabet People who we read
the New Testament documents andwe don't think about it.
Only about 10 to 15 percent ofthe Roman Empire was literate.
They didn't read these things,they heard them.
Faith comes by hearing Romans10, 17.
(12:30):
The second communicationsrevolution was the invention of
movable type, the printing press, gutenberg, and that enabled
the word and other things to bedisseminated wisely.
Luther was savvy, he jumpedonto that and it earthly-wise
(12:58):
made the Reformation in goodmeasure happen.
And out of that eventuallycomes mass literacy in Western
countries.
Today we're in the digitalrevolution and we don't know
where that's going to go.
My wife worries about AI.
I don't understand much of it,we just don't know where it's
going to go.
But that's having a profoundimpact.
(13:19):
I mean, we're doing thispodcast right now.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
Right.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
I was raised a literate guy.
I still, I still, I've got mybooks.
I want a book in front of me,Okay, Uh, people now do tweets.
What is 140 characters?
Or or?
Speaker 1 (13:33):
or whatever it is.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
This digital revolution is giving us all
kinds of information, butbasically we're dumber than a
horse's behind.
You know, as a group, and yousee it all the time.
The digital revolution, thesocial media, has made us tribal
(13:56):
and you guys who are in activeministry are dealing with that
all the time.
So this has been profound and Ithink mass evangel evangelism
programs forget it.
I think it comes down to localcongregation and high-touch
personal relationships, like wetalked about before.
(14:16):
It's an exciting time, I'lltell you, but God only knows
where it's going to go.
We may be getting closer to theapocalypse.
The apocalypse may no longer bejust something you study in the
book of Revelation.
We may be living it.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Yeah, no, I agree, I mean doubling down.
This podcast exists to be oneeffort among many efforts to
have conversations that otherpeople can kind of listen into,
with people that agree and ormaybe lovingly disagree about
not just the what of the churchbut the how we live today as the
(14:56):
church.
I mean our contexts are sorobustly distinct.
Right now, doing ministry inurban LA, praying for everyone
there, is radically differentthan rural Kansas and
unfortunately we've become inthe LCMS and probably in many I
would say definitely in manymainline denominations, ever
(15:17):
increasingly the room is gettingsmaller rather than larger and
one of the things as I read thescriptures smaller rather than
larger.
And one of the things as I readthe scriptures I mean the
gospel moving out.
Dr Meyer was an expansive open.
Was it maybe open to critiqueand maybe immorality?
And Paul's writing.
Let's just go here for a second.
When Paul is writing, all ofhis letters are reactive to what
(15:40):
the Spirit was already doing inlocal churches, to what the
Spirit was already doing inlocal churches.
It was shaping the theology butit was responding to how the
Word of God was going out intoall of these various.
It was kind of chaotic.
The Spirit is not chaotic butout of control, and this is what
I see in the Pharisees andthose that were against, maybe
(16:01):
from Rome to the Jewish leaders.
The Pharisees, they're alreadyresponding to something that is
like whoa, it's, the world isbeing changed, right?
They even say that the world'sbeing turned upside down because
of these people who are livinga radically new way because
Christ has risen.
He's risen, indeed, hallelujah.
(16:22):
The gospel is going forward bythe Spirit's power and people
are being brought to faith.
And it just seems, for thosethat were in like leadership
positions, who wanted to like,grab on tight.
This is why I think there's athis is a new day and we can
relate a lot to the yearlychurch, those who wanted to grab
on tight and control the, howit looked like.
That's not a good, that's not agood move right now.
(16:43):
It's curiosity open.
There's some things, as I hearyou even saying with AI, like I
don't know exactly how this isgoing to play out.
But here's what we do knowJesus're seeing a move back
toward local and it's life onlife, it's, it's hospitality,
(17:09):
it's they'll know you're mydisciple, by the way you, the
way you love one another.
And so go ahead, Dr.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
You're right and, as you were saying that, one of the
things that strikes me is that,institutionally, denominations
are not set up to deal with this.
Most people and I think this isnot only true in our church but
the institution ofdenominations, their procedures,
(17:40):
their structures, were all setup for Christian America in the
20th century.
That doesn't work anymore andthe frustrating thing for me is
that inertia, bureaucraticinertia, is hard to change.
So when I look at the broadstructures and no offense to
(18:03):
denominational leaders, okay,but we built our institutional
structures at the denominationaland regional levels for a world
that no longer exists and thatmeans that if let's say that you
have an ethnic church in LosAngeles and I know they're great
(18:28):
work that can't necessarilymeet the 20th century
institutional requirements thatwe used to have, how do you
sustain that?
How do you fund that we used tohave?
How do you sustain that?
How do you fund that?
You know we talk about in ouremails ahead of time you talked
(18:54):
about the shortage of pastors.
I think that's a bit of a redherring.
I mean we worked at that at theseminary and, my goodness
gracious, tuition is free atboth seminaries now.
So I mean we dealt with that.
It's a red herring, I think,because congregations in many
instances are not alive, vibrantand flourishing.
So we can prepare bodies, isthe church at large ready to
(19:18):
take them, to pay for them andto facilitate the outreach of
the gospel?
There's all kinds of issues.
The good thing for me, theencouraging thing, is I can find
and you even better than I knowof congregations where it's
working, it's flourishing, thedollars are there, the people
(19:42):
are there, not saying it's easy,but it's local.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Yes, yes, this is an adaptive leadership challenging
season right now and I think themore you mentioned pastoral
formation, I talk about it, drMeyer, an awful lot because I
have some strong opinions forsome tests that we could run
that could start to serve localchurches.
(20:12):
You're laughing at me andthat's okay.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
Let me just butt in as president for 15 years and
the faculty and I more thefaculty than me came up with
some innovative ways to formpastors, and we often, very
(20:36):
often, bumped up againstinstitutional entrenched
leadership.
That's the end of that sentence.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
As he rocks back in his chair.
I'm sorry about that and Idon't know.
I've never been in your shoesand I don't think I ever will
lead one of our seminaries, butI know there are systemic forces
.
It's never, as we talk aboutthese things, whether it's
(21:12):
formation or I've been quitepointed on prior approval lists
and things like that it's neverjust one thing, it's in the
water.
It's in the water, it's justthe way it kind of works and the
pull toward institutionalpreservation is very, very
strong.
Let's just go down that path.
It appears as if Walther let'sjust look at our founding father
(21:36):
, that attractive man.
He wrote a lot about the localchurch's responsibility for and
that's a major part of our DNAstory is you're still where Word
and Sacrament is and there is achurch.
We don't have to go back toGermany when Martin Stephan has
his struggles.
(21:57):
He wrote on the local church'sright to call their own pastor.
He kind of early on as westarted to form, I think, saw
I'd love to get your take onthis.
I've never asked you thisquestion I think he saw the
potential toward creatinginstitutions that must be
preserved at maybe the expenseof the advancement of the local
(22:21):
church is an institution, butthat's really the only
institution that really mattersat the end of the day, the
gospel going forth in the localcontext and he saw like if we're
creating all of these differentthings, the bureaucracy of
maintaining those things couldhamper our primary mission,
which is word and sacrament atthe local level.
Any kind of response to that,though?
Speaker 3 (22:38):
Dr Meyer mission, which is Word and Sacrament at
the local level.
Any kind of response to thatthough?
Dr Meyer, I've never thoughtabout it in those terms.
I suspect what you say is true.
I wouldn't gainsay it.
Our church believes that thecongregation is a divine
institution.
Okay, the Synod is not.
The district is not.
The Lutheran Layman's League isnot.
The seminary is not da-da-da isnot.
The Lutheran Layman's League isnot.
(23:00):
The seminary is not da-da-da.
The local congregation is where.
The local congregation isobviously where you gather, but
it's not only the place togather simply to receive the
sacraments.
In the 21st century, thecongregation is the place where
you go to receive the means ofgrace but also to know that here
(23:21):
is a place where I am loved.
Here is a place where I amaccepted.
Here is a place where I learnhow to live in this impersonal,
often hostile world that we'rein and an America that no longer
privileges the church.
The sociologists call this amediating institution.
(23:43):
I think Walther saw that.
I mean we don't think aboutWalther in these terms, but it's
true.
He was very interested incharitable works.
There was a fever plague orsomething in St Louis.
He was front and center in that.
We have drifted into anunderstanding of the local
(24:05):
congregation, just as the houseof God.
Okay, and there we go, have aspiritual experience, and I'm
not putting Sundays down.
The congregation in a community, especially in this
post-churched America, is a lotmore than that.
It's one of the few placeswhere we can keep our head on
(24:27):
straight and know that we'reloved.
So your Walther question Iguess you're right.
I've never studied it.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
I don't know he wrote a lot of things, but I think
the heart of Luther and then andthen Walther, obviously the
heart of Paul was it's.
It's all about the local churchand and smaller, larger, it
doesn't really matter Localchurches taking more
responsibility for building upthe next gen.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
Yeah, follow up on that One of the projects I'm
working on is a Concordiacommentary on 1 Peter and I
think when we look back at firstcentury documents we kind of
read them through our eyes.
The church was minuscule, itwas a subset of Judaism in those
(25:17):
first years and in the case of1 Peter he wrote to what we now
call Turkey.
It was existential.
If those people did not staytrue and I won't say it's true
to the church, but if theydidn't hang tight with Jesus and
look forward to his returning,their fellowship would easily
(25:39):
dissipate.
We've got a lot of things goingfor us now that they didn't
have.
We have institutions.
Maybe our institutions aresomewhat outdated, maybe they're
failing.
They certainly needreinvigoration.
We've got a lot more going forus than those first Christians
did.
And you mentioned Corinth.
Look at Corinth.
Look at all the moral problemsthey have.
(26:00):
And we argue over who can go tocommunion and I'm not saying
that's a trivial discussion, I'mnot saying that.
But they had people in Corinthwho denied the resurrection, who
were turning the Lord's Supperinto drinking bouts.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
What are we doing?
So, yeah, the church has alwayshad problems and the church has
always been centered on the onewho came to solve it, I mean
Jesus and the hospitality ofJesus for all of the sinners.
You know, let's go down thispath.
Confession I've said this inmany different and I've had to
(26:39):
live it out.
And being at a church now for12 years, just making it in one
place with a certain group ofpeople in one place, I mean
that's not a small thing and I'dlove to be here for a long
period of time, if the Lord andthe Holy Spirit allows.
But I have to say, I'm sorry,dr Meyer, there are certain
things that I do or don't do.
(27:01):
The list of things that aresins left undone are pretty much
endless.
And so I have to confess and Ineed absolution and I obviously
offer that to one another.
And it feels like in the LCMSsometimes we simply, at various
levels, be it systemically orindividually, we have a hard
time saying you know what?
(27:22):
I thought I was making theright, I didn't have all the
information and I intentionally,or maybe unintentionally, hurt
you, hurt our relationship, hurtthis ministry, whatever we have
to say, it seems so elementary,but I think there's this spirit
of, of pride and fear thatkeeps us from confessing sins of
(27:45):
omission and commission Like,let's just boil it right down Um
, we, we need to be a confessingpeople, we're confess, we're
confessional Lutherans, likethat starts with an
acknowledgement of our, of oursin.
So any thoughts about the, thehesitancy, the systemic pride
and fear that may be taking root?
And well, it obviously istaking root, because sin has
(28:07):
always been crouching at ourdoor and so we just need the
grace of Jesus, the forgiveness,the absolution of Jesus, over
and over again.
But that comes through theconfessing door.
Any more to say there, dr Meyer?
Speaker 3 (28:21):
Yeah, I'm just trying to.
Okay, you may have had thisexperience, but I got a lot of
criticism through the years andsome of it was deserved and some
of it was bogus.
Okay, but I always thought,especially in pastoral ministry,
(28:43):
which I did for 12 years Ialways thought you're
complaining about what I did.
You don't know the half of howscrewed up I am.
They just picked the easyfruits.
I could have laid out a lotmore.
That would have shocked them,probably gotten me fired.
I don't know.
I didn't do okay.
(29:07):
I won't go there, I'm not hidingany gross immoralities or
anything like that, but theother thing, and retirement has
given me a chance to look backat my ministry and also to look
at theology, without some of theconstraints we have in our
denomination, and I believe ourdenomination has a wonderful
(29:31):
gospel.
Okay, amen.
But one of the things that isvery clear to me is Christ, as
we present him, is often afirst-century figure.
You listen to services, sermons, bible classes, read literature
(29:51):
, and it's often aboutfirst-century Jesus.
Well, what Jesus did in thefirst century is absolutely
necessary for our salvation.
I'm not putting that down.
But what we don't emphasize iswhere Jesus is today.
He's exalted, he's reigningover all things for the good of
(30:11):
the church.
He is going to come sooner orlater, probably sooner for me
than for a lot of people, and soI think our lay people, who are
good, faithful lay people, theycan tell you about what Jesus
did for us.
Yeah, he died for my sins andhe rose again.
(30:32):
But by this and it's a result,I think, of the enlightenment
affecting our preaching andteaching there's a void.
It's like before a person goeson stage on camera, you wait in
the green room.
(30:52):
I think most of our people ineffect believe that Jesus was on
stage in the first century, didhis good stuff, and now he's in
the green room and he's notdoing anything.
Well, this comes.
I'm probably getting deeperthan you want to go.
This comes because we haveneglected in our denomination
(31:17):
the ascension.
We have neglected in ourdenomination the ascension.
And by that I don't mean thatThursday in spring when the
farmers would be planting, nowwhen the kids are having their
sports outside.
I don't mean that.
But our liturgy, our lessons,our prayers are all predicated
upon the fact that Christ is notin the manger, he's not on the
(31:40):
cross, he's been out of the tombfor 2,000 years, he is ruling
over all things and he's theLord of the church.
Now NT Wright says and you canpick at NT Wright, go ahead,
he's a heck of a lot smarterthan I am.
But he says if you neglect theascension and all that it
(32:01):
entails, you create a void andsomething has to fill that void.
And he says what fills the voidis the church.
And that, to me, describes whatI see today.
The church has confused itsbeing with Jesus.
The church is not Jesus, thechurch is not Jesus.
(32:22):
The church is over Jesus.
He sustains us, he supports us,but he also criticizes us.
If we had this sense of theLord is over me and he's looking
over me now.
1 Peter, 1.17,.
God is judging us right now forour actions.
(32:44):
Okay, if we had this sense,it'd be no big deal to say, hey,
I screwed this up, I reallyscrewed this up.
And it'd be no big deal forsomebody to say, well, dale,
yeah, you really did screw it up, but that's okay, let's get on
with it.
So I think the biggesttheological issue facing the
(33:05):
Missouri Synod right now andagain I say that we have
preached Jesus faithfully.
I'm not saying that we'reteaching false doctrine, but
we're not preaching and teachinghim as fully as we could.
He's reigning over all things,he's guiding all things in the
interest of his church.
Okay, that's a wholedissertation that has to be
looked at and he's going tobring us home and that
(33:32):
Christocentricity then has to— Ithink Christocentricity is the
thing that we need to get backto, more than we have, and that
is going to separate us fromnominal Christians and nominal
churches.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
Dr Meyer preach.
That was spectacular.
Oh my gosh, you need to go back, listener.
Those three minutes, a littlehomily.
Jesus is, yes, the crucified,risen and reigning one over all
of creation.
He sits at the right hand ofthe Father.
He's not in the green room,he's at work.
(34:12):
So I got a couple.
Let's go deeper theologicallyin this.
So what would you say tosomeone who says judge by my
works, what's Peter even gettingat?
I think Lutherans, in our twokinds of righteousness law,
gospel, et cetera we strugglewith this.
He's going to judge On the lastday.
(34:32):
I'm going to have to give anaccount for it.
This is all in the Bible, daleAre.
Are we reading the Bible?
Like, how are we supposed tomake sense, sense of this?
You know that.
Um, that Jesus is and I'veactually referred to this
recently Like I have to confess,I will confess how I led those
who desire to be an overseer,desire, desire.
You know a hard thing.
(34:53):
Um, you'll be held to accountfor how you cared for, led,
shepherded the people of GodLike I do.
I do not take this lightly.
Is that the law?
Yeah, I guess, but it's leadingme to confess Holy Spirit.
I need a lot of help, becauseif Tim gets in the way, this is
really going to not go, not go,great.
So what do you say to theperson who say I thought I'm
judged according to my faith,not by my, not by my works.
(35:14):
Dr Meyer, let's go, let's godeeper.
Speaker 3 (35:17):
Well, several things.
First of all, about ourscrew-ups in the ministry, and
earlier I told you about mymountaintop experiences.
I could give you a long list ofmy screw-ups.
Martin Luther says in hisHeidelberg Disputation from 1518
(35:38):
, that every Christian has to dowhatever we do in the fear of
God, the fear that what I'mdoing actually might be a
damnable work, but we entrust itto the Lord in the fear of God.
And that fear of God is areverential fear.
It's not a slavish fear.
(35:58):
God, and that fear of God is areverential fear.
It's not a slavish fear.
But as Peter says in 117, ifyou call him Father, who judges
impartially according to eachone's work, okay, so our Father
is also judging us.
He's watching what we're doing.
2 Corinthians 5.10,.
(36:20):
We must all appear before thejudgment seat of Christ that we
may receive for what we havedone in our bodies, be it good
or evil.
And it's all over the place.
It's all over the place.
We have these sometimesLutheran blinders on that.
We skip over those passages andwe'll say, yeah, Jesus is going
to take care of that, he'sgoing to take care of that.
(36:46):
The Reformation was the firsttime when we made a sharp
distinction betweenjustification and sanctification
.
Up until that time, Christiantheologians said that God
sanctifies you and that's totalbody, sanctification,
(37:09):
justification and sanctification, sanctification in the broader
sense.
Well, the medieval churchtwisted or followed human nature
and all of a sudden it becomesworks that you do so.
Luther very correctly made thatsharp distinction works that
(37:30):
you do so.
Luther very correctly made thatsharp distinction.
What's happened since is, Ithink, that we have stressed I'm
saved by grace, through faith,not by works, and we hang our
hat on that without and weforget that we're still come
before judgment for our works.
Now, what do we say?
(37:52):
Okay, so I've been an itinerantpreacher.
Nobody has me back, buteverybody will have me at least
one time.
And as an itinerant, I wouldoften use two questions.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
I said I'm going to.
Speaker 3 (38:09):
Okay, I'm going to ask you a question, two
questions, and if you get thisright, I'll end the sermon and
you can go home and watch afootball game, okay?
First question is does Godjudge according to works?
Well, you know Lutherans, theirnecks don't move.
Okay, eventually, some sweetold lady will say no, shake her
(38:30):
head, no.
I said well, I'm sorry, but Goddoes judge according to works
and the passages that I recitedbefore.
I said but okay, if you can getthe second question right, I'll
still end the sermon, go homeand watch the football game.
Are we saved by works?
(38:51):
Well, now they're an extraloose.
No, no, no, no, no, we're notsaved by works.
Yes, we are.
And they're looking at me likewhat's this new heresy coming
out of St Louis?
I said we're saved by Jesus'works, not by ours.
(39:12):
And then I quote it's in theLutheran hymnal.
I don't know if our new bookwe've had a number of new books
in my ministry Thy works notmine, o Christ.
Thy works not mine, o Christ.
Be gladness to the heart.
They tell me all is done.
They bid my fear depart.
To whom save thee?
Who canst alone for sin?
(39:33):
Atone Lord, shall I flee?
And Augsburg Confession teachesthat we have a gracious God by
the gospel.
How does it go when we believethis?
My memory is failing now, butthis augsburg five, which talks
(39:56):
about the ministry, talks aboutthe works of christ.
When we believe that, so yeah,we're saved by the works of
christ, not by our works, andand faith in the confessions is
hanging on to what Jesus hasdone.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Well, so this is exactly right.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
So I'm glad.
I'm glad to know that.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
You're welcome.
You've been reading the Bible,dr Meyer.
Praise God.
So, like the parable of thetalents, they're already in
relationship with the master.
Let's just look at this oneparable, a late parable of Jesus
, and they've been givendifferent gifts to steward.
You know, a talent is money,but it could be, you know, just
your influence, your vocation,your various vocations of
(40:40):
influence, to advance, tomultiply, to risk, to actually
invest the master's resources.
And the sin of omission in thatone is the third one given one
time he buries it and the mastercomes back and says you, wicked
servant, like there is this.
All I'm saying is there is thisresponse to whom much has been
(41:03):
given, much is required, and forthose of you who are in a
respective seed of influencethat could amplify, multiply,
move the gospel forward, butwe're living with protective
fear, we're hoarding the gift.
This is an inappropriateresponse to the gospel of Jesus
Christ and we can't hang our hat.
This is cheap, this is cheapgrace, right, we can't hang our
(41:23):
hat on.
You know that God doesn'treally care about how I'm
stewarding the people, theresources.
No, god is, god is a judge andthere will come a day of
judgment, and praise be to God.
We're saved by the work ofChrist, but this always leads to
a response of faith anddependence, humility, the fruit
of the spirit being more seen inour, in our lives.
(41:43):
So any, any responses, the HolySpirit's kind of working on
your mind, as I even bring up aparable, like the parable of the
talents, dr Meyer.
Speaker 3 (41:51):
Yeah, the talents are about the faith that God's
given us, and some people havemustard seed faith.
I always think that I have amustard seed faith.
Well, it's going to show you.
Don't bury your talent.
And one of the places that thatthat faith shows, I think and
can show, is in good works inthe community.
No, we're not saved by goodworks.
(42:13):
But Luther says because in thefreedom of a Christian he says,
we've been saved.
The only reason God's leavingus here is to do good works.
Goes back to show me what afriend I have.
Don't tell me what a friend Ihave in Jesus.
Tell me what a friend I have inyou.
One of the challenges is ourcongregations, in my estimation,
(42:39):
need to be much more active inour communities.
Whatever that is and I'm nottalking about evangelism efforts
, homeless soup kitchens,habitat for humanity, carter
thing, that's love, that's faithin action.
(43:02):
Ministerial Alliance in ourtown here in Collinsville, is
called Faith in Action.
That's yeah, that's it.
So the talents, you know, evena mustard seed talent is enough
for salvation.
But 1 Corinthians 3 says onthat day, the day of fire, the
last day, all that we do isgoing to be tested, and a lot of
(43:25):
the things we do as churchleaders and me are going to be
tried by fire and they won'tendure.
First Corinthians are a hugepassage, so yeah, this is good.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
Thanks be to God that we have one, and this is one of
the gifts of being a Lutheran.
We sit in the tension of saintand sinner right and the tension
of two kinds of righteousness.
For those of you who don't knowthe righteousness that I have
by faith in the Son of Godbecause of the work of Christ,
that's a quorum deo vertical andthen horizontally.
(44:06):
That gets lived out.
God doesn't need our good works, but our neighbor does, and
we're actually a livingmanifestation.
God has been unleashed upon theworld through his people and
Jesus is, yes, our Lord and alsoour judge.
So there's this kind of duality, this tension that exists in
good Lutheran theology andthat's all you hear us talking
about, like everybody's beentalking about since Jesus came
(44:27):
the juxtaposition or theinterconnection between faith
and works Really commentary onJames here, as we've been coming
down the homestretch.
So I got one kind of last topicI'd love to discuss and I know
you've discussed this in othersettings as well Retirement and
(44:48):
this kind of season.
We're hardwired to work and youcontinue to work, you continue
to preach.
You're hilarious.
People don't have you back.
I'm sure many have had you backmultiple times, dr Meyer, but
it's different now in this chair, in your man cave, than it's
been in some other chairs you'vesat in.
Would you talk just about whatthis experience is like in this
(45:10):
season of life?
And before I turn it to you forthese last comments, I want you
to know and I think there's anumber of different leaders that
I try to reach out to men whoused to occupy one and they're
not in the same chair anymore.
Your voice is still very, verysignificant for me and for the
church.
I know you don't need to hearthat.
(45:31):
The ego doesn't need to hearthat I just have been privileged
for the last 45 minutes tospend time talking about Jesus
with you.
So you're not, you're notretired, you're just in a
different, different season.
But there is some grief, Iguess, to land the plane.
There is some grief in thisseason for you.
Would you talk about that, drMeyer?
Speaker 3 (45:49):
Yeah, I appreciate the question.
In my jobs especially the lastone at the seminary I wake up
early, four o'clock, that's themilkman in me and one of the
first things I would do is checkmy emails.
You know, where did I screw up?
(46:13):
What needs to be done?
What meetings do I have to goto?
Da, da, da and bingo, the day Igot my last paycheck, that all
stopped.
You know, I'm thrilled now toget junk emails because at least
somebody's, somebody's writingto me.
So I've had a hard transition,and not that not saying that
(46:35):
that's true of everybody.
If you've been cooped up in afactory your whole life, man,
it's probably like the bird canfly out of the cage and do
whatever you want, but it's beenhard for me.
But either way, if retirementhas been easy or difficult, what
has become obvious to me isthat the church is not preparing
(47:00):
us spiritually for retirement,and I'm indicting my own
ministry and I'm indicting myown ministry.
The church teaches us how todie, but how do we live between
(47:25):
that last paycheck and the 5, 10, 30 years before we decline and
die?
What we pick up, what I pick upall the time, is well, be
active.
Okay, I don't know how yourcongregation is, but I think
most of the volunteers areretired people.
Be active, and that's fine.
My mom was active until shepassed away at almost 97 years
old and I've got so many ironsin the fire.
(47:46):
I need to live and be activefor the next 20 or 30 years,
okay, but that's a dodge.
That's dodging.
You can't always be active.
The end is coming.
You're going to die.
In view of that, how do weunderstand these retirement
(48:06):
years?
That?
How do we understand theseretirement years?
My answer to cut to the chaseor, as you say, to land this
plane had an old guy in my firstchurch.
He called it a fliver.
He says a fliver.
It wasn't an airplane, hetalked about flying on a fliver.
(48:32):
What is a fliver?
I've never heard that term, drMeyer.
It's an old, old name for anairplane, a fliver.
I mean, I'll have to Google itwhen I hang up, but this guy was
a character and he alwaystalked about flivers.
Maybe he meant the airplane.
Anyway, so to land thisairplane, the best way that I've
come to understand retirementis the Sabbath.
Okay, the weekly Sabbath,understood in a Christian sort
(48:56):
of way, not a legalisticSaturday off.
Okay, but Jews kept the Sabbathwhen they rested with God, just
as God rested with creation.
On the seventh day.
A big day for the Jews wasFriday, the day of preparation.
(49:16):
That was a day of activity.
That's a day when you get allthe food in, the things that you
need for the Sabbath daybecause you're not going to do
it on the Sabbath day.
But Friday was an active day ofpreparation.
That's how I'm understandingretirement.
Retirement is the day ofpreparation before the eternal
(49:37):
Sabbath, hebrews, chapter 3.
That makes sense to me.
But going back to my ownministry and what I've picked up
in the church, we're notpreparing our people for this
spiritual understanding ofretirement.
And Dale Meyer, who's he?
Billy Graham said this in hisbook Nearing Home.
(50:00):
He said you know, the churchteaches us how to die, but it
doesn't teach us how to livebefore we die.
Amen.
Speaker 2 (50:09):
Amen, amen.
I I want to be like you whenI'm in your season, Dr Meyer.
I'm serious about that.
I think our personalities arekind of similar.
I'm just a generation or sobehind, I mean driven.
Similar I'm just a generationor so behind, I mean driven.
(50:32):
You love moving and trying andfailing and I love entering into
difficult projects and eveninteracting with difficult
people.
I find people very, veryfascinating and that work for
you while it's you're inpreparation stage.
It's just different but you'restill right.
So what are your final like twoor three things that are
getting you up every day?
You're writing commentaries.
What else are you doing toadvance the gospel in this day
(50:55):
of preparation, dr Meyer?
Speaker 3 (50:58):
Well, the seminary doesn't need me anymore,
lutheran hour doesn't need meanymore.
I volunteered our church toteach a Bible class.
But the answer to that questionis tomorrow needs me.
Speaker 2 (51:14):
Amen.
Speaker 3 (51:14):
Tomorrow needs me, Even after I'm laid to rest in
the church cemetery, the thingsI'm writing and hopefully that
will have some endurance.
I'm doing this for tomorrowwhen I'm gone.
Speaker 2 (51:35):
Hey, I've done gosh hundreds I don't know if it's
thousands of podcasts now overthe last decade and this is one
of my top.
I've laughed and had so muchjoy as I've gotten to talk to
you today.
So thank you for spreading thejoy of Jesus and for continuing
to charge.
The Lord has given you acharging voice.
You're I don't know if I'mgoing to throw out apostolic
(51:55):
prophetic I mean, you just areone of those leaders that we
need to continue to listen totoday.
Your voice, your perspective,the way the Holy Spirit rests
upon you, connected to thenever-changing word, is a gift
to me and to all who are goingto take in this conversation
today, Dr Meyer.
So thank you, Thank you, Thankyou.
If people want to send thatemail that you just may open up
with joy, where could they sendthat email?
(52:17):
And I hope honestly listener,like just send, Dr Meyer, a
story or two of how you'vetouched my life.
I got to tell it to you inperson, but, yeah, where could
they connect with you via anemail, Dr Meyer?
Speaker 3 (52:29):
Well.
Thank you, pastor, for yourkind words and blessings on you.
May you have 30, 40, 50 moreyears of active ministry.
I do put out a I've resurrecteda little mailing called the
Meyer Minute Just 300 words ofthought.
(52:53):
People can write to me atMeyerD M-E-Y-E-R-D.
Small letters, m-e-y-e-r-d.
At CSLedu, concordiastlouiseduMeyerD.
At CSD-U, concordia, st Louis,dot E-D-U.
Meyer D at C-S-L dot E-D-U.
Speaker 2 (53:10):
Thank you, pastor.
They can get on that MeyerMinute there as well.
They can just request to be onthat email.
That's so good, okay.
Speaker 3 (53:17):
It's a mom and pop operation but yeah, it's so good
.
Speaker 2 (53:21):
Hey, dr Meyer, this has been a kick.
This is lead time.
Please like, subscribe, comment.
Wherever it is you take in thisconversation, subscribing and
commenting really helps multiplythe message and hopefully
you're leaving today filled withjoy, filled with challenge, for
Jesus is the lover of our soulsas well as our judge, and the
(53:41):
days are too short to doanything other than work to
advance his message, his messageof love and care, and a day of
judgment quickly approaching,where the sheep and the goats
will be separated.
It's a wonderful day.
Go and make it a great day bythe power of the Spirit and the
Word.
Thank you, dr Barron.
Speaker 1 (53:57):
You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the
Unite Leadership Collective.
The ULC's mission is tocollaborate with the local
church to discover, develop anddeploy leaders through biblical
Lutheran doctrine and innovativemethods To partner with us in
this gospel message.
Subscribe to our channel, thengo to theuniteleadershiporg to
create your free login forexclusive material and resources
(54:19):
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.
Thanks for listening and staytuned for next week's episode.
This is Lead Time.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Happy day.
Welcome to Lead Time, timAllman.
Here I pray.
The joy of the Lord is yourstrength as you're, wherever you
are.
Maybe you're heading into worktoday after getting, hopefully,
your water, getting somemovement, moving the body, the
temple of the Holy Spirit,hardwired for a day of
significance, meaning andpurpose, centered in your
identity in Jesus, a baptizedson or daughter of the King.
(00:25):
Today I get the privilege ofhanging out with a man that had
a major impact on my life in myfour years at Concordia Seminary
in St Louis, and for many ofyou, you've listened to this man
either in person or online.
This is the one and onlyReverend, dr Dale Meyer.
How you doing, brother.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Thanks, Tim.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Thanks for having me and to the audience.
Take everything he said with agrain of salt.
Well, yeah, no, this is goingto be great.
We're going to have some fun.
I mean your life as anadministrator, leader, pastor,
lutheran hour speaker I meanyou've kind of been.
You've seen a lot of thingsover the decades in the Lutheran
Church Missouri Synod, dr Meyer, and let's just hunt the good
(01:12):
stuff.
As you look back over your lifetop three kind of highlights
you're like, wow God, I got tobe a part of that.
What kind of comes to mindthere, dr Murray?
Speaker 3 (01:23):
Well, I always wanted to be a pastor from from little
on.
But the mountaintop experiences, I have to do a little thinking
about that.
One was the interview of formerpresident Carter.
That was just a mountaintopexperience and I it came to my
mind, you know, with his recentdeath.
(01:45):
And then another one waspreaching in the National
Cathedral for the Navy's annualservice of Thanksgiving and I
was blessed to visit manymilitary bases and appreciate
the work that they do.
But those were mountaintopthings.
Looking back at 52 years, whatstrikes me is the people.
(02:10):
One of my regrets is that I wasin situations where you come in
, speak and go home and Ideveloped many, many good
friends, but I wish I could bewith all of them more and more,
and in heaven I trust we will be.
The other thing, and I learnedthis from Dr Hoffman wherever
(02:35):
the gospel is present, theSpirit is present to do the work
.
I was amazed by the faith thatpeople have work.
I was amazed by the faith thatpeople have, especially in
comparison to our rather oftencushy American Christian life.
So mountaintop, yeah, but itwas the stuff down in the plane
(02:55):
that really shaped me.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Well, yeah, that's the way it works, and the plane
prepares you for some of thosemountaintop experiences, and I
love just working in reverseorder of what you just said.
The reason we got into this, drMeyer, was the people, our love
for people, and seeing peoplecome to come to faith and grow
their faith and experienceamazing things.
(03:19):
And I'm, you know, right in the.
I'm firmly in the middle of mylife journey and it could be
tomorrow, or it could be, couldbe another 40, 40, 50 years, who
knows?
But when I look back over now,18 years of being a pastor, it's
all about, it's all aboutrelationship, isn't it?
It's all about relationship,absolutely.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
A friend of mine was the president of the American
Bible Society.
I was on that board for about adozen years and Dr Habecker
always used to say don't tell mewhat a friend I have in Jesus
until I see what a friend I havein you.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Jeez, that's it.
I'm just curious.
I'd never heard your story ofgetting to interview.
Was this, when you were in theLutheran Hour Speaker, you got
to interview President Carter?
Tell a little bit more of thedetails of that story.
How's that even happened?
Speaker 3 (04:10):
Well, he wrote a number of books and we were
doing the television program onMain Street and one of the ways
we could get guests was when theguest was doing a book tour.
So we invited President Carterformer President Carter to come
on, and at the time I wasactually in Finland, speaking to
(04:33):
a retreat of our LCMS chaplainsnorth of Helsinki, and the word
came that we could interviewformer President Carter in
Memphis, in I don't know howmany days from now.
So I was supposed to go intoRussia but instead I flew back
to Memphis, to the Peabody Hotel, where they have all the ducks
(04:56):
that walk out and jump in thepond, and we did the interview
and it was like talking to myfather-in-law Very nice, very
nice.
But you may appreciate this.
He spoke in paragraphs andspeaking in paragraphs is not
good media and I'm alwaysthinking okay, keep going.
(05:17):
And he paused once and I jumpedinto that pause and I asked a
question and he said I was goingto answer that before you
interrupted me.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
You wouldn't expect anything else from that.
That's the way grandpa'stalking we may have one of those
moments today, you know or afather in law talk.
So yeah, that's amazing, don'tfeel.
Don't feel the pause, butoverall it was a great
experience.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
Oh, great, great.
A real man of faith, as wasdemonstrated these last weeks
with his death and funeralservices.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Yeah, so amazing.
So going back you said youalways wanted to be a pastor and
I guess we share that.
I can't think of anotheroutside of maybe a professional
baseball player or something.
When I was a little guy theLord snuffed out that dream
pretty quick.
But who was it that shaped you?
(06:16):
I mean, for me it was my dad,Pastor Dave Allman.
I've had him on a number oftimes and just got to see the
joy, probably aroundconfirmation, honestly, that I
was like, unless the Lord closesthe door, I think I think I
would love to tell people aboutJesus as a as a pastor.
Do you remember some of thoseformative moments or even people
in with our work in the UnitedLeadership Collective?
(06:37):
We call it the I see in youconversation, where there one
person or multiple people whosaid I see in you, Dr Meyer, the
ability to potentially be aproclaimer of the word.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
It would be multiple.
I'm a fifth generation Lutheranpastor in our family.
Not in a straight line Some ofus are deviant but a fifth
generation.
But I grew up in a 1950s middlemiddle class Christian home.
Go to church every Sunday Iwent to Lutheran grade school.
(07:10):
I don't know what it was, itwas just kind of like the milieu
that I was in and that's what Iwanted to do.
If I hadn't done that, myyouthful ambition was to be a
milkman like my dad and thatwould have been a heck of a
(07:32):
business to get into.
Milk is not a good industryanymore.
So the ministry it worked outokay.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
It worked out okay?
Sure, sure did so.
Your dad was like delivery ofmilk to door-to-door, kind of
the old school style.
Yeah, sure did so.
Your dad was like delivery ofmilk to door to door, kind of
the old school style.
Yeah, tell that.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Yeah, well, he did that for like 30, 40 years, but
he was on a route door to door,house delivery, and then he did
a good job.
So they made him a supervisorover routes, especially over
wholesale routes.
I paid my way through collegeand seminary by delivering milk.
(08:07):
Every summer I went door todoor and then when I proved
myself, I was on wholesaleroutes, going to stores,
factories, dot dot, and to thisday one of my prized possessions
show you how I'm losing it.
I have a Divco milk truck.
Possessions show you how I'mlosing it.
(08:28):
I have a Divco milk truck, 1972Divco milk truck that I had
restored.
That's cool, yeah, so that wasa bucket list thing for me.
But yeah, and to be serious, Ijust get blankety blank tired of
pastors who are straw bosses,who only create programs for
people and hide in the office.
You can't deliver milk and youcan't deliver the milk of the
(08:52):
Word by holing up in an office.
You've got to be out where thepeople are.
And so then I would say thatwhy did I get in the ministry?
I don't know, but thatexperience, the milk truck, was
formative to me.
I'm a blue-collar guy, you cansee that I got my tools here.
(09:12):
I got my books around, I got mytools here.
I'm not in a fancy churchoffice, reverend.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Come on, you bet it's a fancy office in your day, but
you're firmly in a man caveright now and it's for those
that aren't watching or justlistening, you need to look it
up on YouTube because it is theultimate.
We got tools, we got it, we gota heating unit to your, to your
right.
I mean it's a, and then books,and then the Book of Concord, or
some commentaries and stuff.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
They're all around you, the perfect man, you know
you said I had a fancy officeand that's true, but I actually
had two offices the bigpresident's office and the one
in Seacol where I actually didall my work.
That was always a mess.
I use the president's officeeither to entertain an important
visitor or to kick butt, andwhen you're sitting in the
(10:01):
president's office before thepresident comes in, that lowered
the guy's ego and it was prettyeasy to tell him where the hog
eats the cabbage.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
This is going to be so much fun, dr Meyer.
Ok, so let's, let's look at theworld.
Let's do some commentary onkind of where the world is right
now.
A lot has changed.
So, as you look at the world,what has changed the most since
your ministry began?
And you can kind of piggybackthat into how parish ministry
has changed, as you look at it,over, say, the last five decades
(10:38):
, dr Meyer?
Speaker 3 (10:40):
I was born right after World War II, 1947.
So I'm an early baby boomer.
And one of the things that haschanged and I think we've all
come to realize this recently isthe breakdown of the post-World
War II international order.
The United States did amarvelous thing for the
(11:07):
well-being of the world with aMarshall Plan, with the way we
rehabilitated those people thatwe have been fighting against,
the way we staved off the SovietUnion.
Well, that's collapsed andthere's a number of reasons.
But we're seeing the collapsealso in the United States, and
(11:27):
I'm not talking necessarily proor anti-President Trump right
now, but he typifies thisworldwide breakdown in an
international order that has,among other things, enabled the
church to do its work inrelative peace around most of
the world.
I mean, there are alwaysexceptions, there are always
(11:49):
flashpoints and so on.
So that's the huge change thatI've seen in my lifetime.
Bringing it closer to home isthe digital revolution.
You know there have been four,three major communication
revolutions in the history ofthe world.
(12:09):
The first was the creation ofthe alphabet People who we read
the New Testament documents andwe don't think about it.
Only about 10 to 15 percent ofthe Roman Empire was literate.
They didn't read these things,they heard them.
Faith comes by hearing Romans10, 17.
(12:30):
The second communicationsrevolution was the invention of
movable type, the printing press, gutenberg, and that enabled
the word and other things to bedisseminated wisely.
Luther was savvy, he jumpedonto that and it earthly-wise
(12:58):
made the Reformation in goodmeasure happen.
And out of that eventuallycomes mass literacy in Western
countries.
Today we're in the digitalrevolution and we don't know
where that's going to go.
My wife worries about AI.
I don't understand much of it,we just don't know where it's
going to go.
But that's having a profoundimpact.
(13:19):
I mean, we're doing thispodcast right now.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
Right.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
I was raised a literate guy.
I still, I still, I've got mybooks.
I want a book in front of me,Okay, Uh, people now do tweets.
What is 140 characters?
Or or?
Speaker 1 (13:33):
or whatever it is.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
This digital revolution is giving us all
kinds of information, butbasically we're dumber than a
horse's behind.
You know, as a group, and yousee it all the time.
The digital revolution, thesocial media, has made us tribal
(13:56):
and you guys who are in activeministry are dealing with that
all the time.
So this has been profound and Ithink mass evangel evangelism
programs forget it.
I think it comes down to localcongregation and high-touch
personal relationships, like wetalked about before.
(14:16):
It's an exciting time, I'lltell you, but God only knows
where it's going to go.
We may be getting closer to theapocalypse.
The apocalypse may no longer bejust something you study in the
book of Revelation.
We may be living it.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Yeah, no, I agree, I mean doubling down.
This podcast exists to be oneeffort among many efforts to
have conversations that otherpeople can kind of listen into,
with people that agree and ormaybe lovingly disagree about
not just the what of the churchbut the how we live today as the
(14:56):
church.
I mean our contexts are sorobustly distinct.
Right now, doing ministry inurban LA, praying for everyone
there, is radically differentthan rural Kansas and
unfortunately we've become inthe LCMS and probably in many I
would say definitely in manymainline denominations, ever
(15:17):
increasingly the room is gettingsmaller rather than larger and
one of the things as I read thescriptures smaller rather than
larger.
And one of the things as I readthe scriptures I mean the
gospel moving out.
Dr Meyer was an expansive open.
Was it maybe open to critiqueand maybe immorality?
And Paul's writing.
Let's just go here for a second.
When Paul is writing, all ofhis letters are reactive to what
(15:40):
the Spirit was already doing inlocal churches, to what the
Spirit was already doing inlocal churches.
It was shaping the theology butit was responding to how the
Word of God was going out intoall of these various.
It was kind of chaotic.
The Spirit is not chaotic butout of control, and this is what
I see in the Pharisees andthose that were against, maybe
(16:01):
from Rome to the Jewish leaders.
The Pharisees, they're alreadyresponding to something that is
like whoa, it's, the world isbeing changed, right?
They even say that the world'sbeing turned upside down because
of these people who are livinga radically new way because
Christ has risen.
He's risen, indeed, hallelujah.
(16:22):
The gospel is going forward bythe Spirit's power and people
are being brought to faith.
And it just seems, for thosethat were in like leadership
positions, who wanted to like,grab on tight.
This is why I think there's athis is a new day and we can
relate a lot to the yearlychurch, those who wanted to grab
on tight and control the, howit looked like.
That's not a good, that's not agood move right now.
(16:43):
It's curiosity open.
There's some things, as I hearyou even saying with AI, like I
don't know exactly how this isgoing to play out.
But here's what we do knowJesus're seeing a move back
toward local and it's life onlife, it's, it's hospitality,
(17:09):
it's they'll know you're mydisciple, by the way you, the
way you love one another.
And so go ahead, Dr.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
You're right and, as you were saying that, one of the
things that strikes me is that,institutionally, denominations
are not set up to deal with this.
Most people and I think this isnot only true in our church but
the institution ofdenominations, their procedures,
(17:40):
their structures, were all setup for Christian America in the
20th century.
That doesn't work anymore andthe frustrating thing for me is
that inertia, bureaucraticinertia, is hard to change.
So when I look at the broadstructures and no offense to
(18:03):
denominational leaders, okay,but we built our institutional
structures at the denominationaland regional levels for a world
that no longer exists and thatmeans that if let's say that you
have an ethnic church in LosAngeles and I know they're great
(18:28):
work that can't necessarilymeet the 20th century
institutional requirements thatwe used to have, how do you
sustain that?
How do you fund that we used tohave?
How do you sustain that?
How do you fund that?
You know we talk about in ouremails ahead of time you talked
(18:54):
about the shortage of pastors.
I think that's a bit of a redherring.
I mean we worked at that at theseminary and, my goodness
gracious, tuition is free atboth seminaries now.
So I mean we dealt with that.
It's a red herring, I think,because congregations in many
instances are not alive, vibrantand flourishing.
So we can prepare bodies, isthe church at large ready to
(19:18):
take them, to pay for them andto facilitate the outreach of
the gospel?
There's all kinds of issues.
The good thing for me, theencouraging thing, is I can find
and you even better than I knowof congregations where it's
working, it's flourishing, thedollars are there, the people
(19:42):
are there, not saying it's easy,but it's local.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Yes, yes, this is an adaptive leadership challenging
season right now and I think themore you mentioned pastoral
formation, I talk about it, drMeyer, an awful lot because I
have some strong opinions forsome tests that we could run
that could start to serve localchurches.
(20:12):
You're laughing at me andthat's okay.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
Let me just butt in as president for 15 years and
the faculty and I more thefaculty than me came up with
some innovative ways to formpastors, and we often, very
(20:36):
often, bumped up againstinstitutional entrenched
leadership.
That's the end of that sentence.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
As he rocks back in his chair.
I'm sorry about that and Idon't know.
I've never been in your shoesand I don't think I ever will
lead one of our seminaries, butI know there are systemic forces
.
It's never, as we talk aboutthese things, whether it's
(21:12):
formation or I've been quitepointed on prior approval lists
and things like that it's neverjust one thing, it's in the
water.
It's in the water, it's justthe way it kind of works and the
pull toward institutionalpreservation is very, very
strong.
Let's just go down that path.
It appears as if Walther let'sjust look at our founding father
(21:36):
, that attractive man.
He wrote a lot about the localchurch's responsibility for and
that's a major part of our DNAstory is you're still where Word
and Sacrament is and there is achurch.
We don't have to go back toGermany when Martin Stephan has
his struggles.
(21:57):
He wrote on the local church'sright to call their own pastor.
He kind of early on as westarted to form, I think, saw
I'd love to get your take onthis.
I've never asked you thisquestion I think he saw the
potential toward creatinginstitutions that must be
preserved at maybe the expenseof the advancement of the local
(22:21):
church is an institution, butthat's really the only
institution that really mattersat the end of the day, the
gospel going forth in the localcontext and he saw like if we're
creating all of these differentthings, the bureaucracy of
maintaining those things couldhamper our primary mission,
which is word and sacrament atthe local level.
Any kind of response to that,though?
Speaker 3 (22:38):
Dr Meyer mission, which is Word and Sacrament at
the local level.
Any kind of response to thatthough?
Dr Meyer, I've never thoughtabout it in those terms.
I suspect what you say is true.
I wouldn't gainsay it.
Our church believes that thecongregation is a divine
institution.
Okay, the Synod is not.
The district is not.
The Lutheran Layman's League isnot.
The seminary is not da-da-da isnot.
The Lutheran Layman's League isnot.
(23:00):
The seminary is not da-da-da.
The local congregation is where.
The local congregation isobviously where you gather, but
it's not only the place togather simply to receive the
sacraments.
In the 21st century, thecongregation is the place where
you go to receive the means ofgrace but also to know that here
(23:21):
is a place where I am loved.
Here is a place where I amaccepted.
Here is a place where I learnhow to live in this impersonal,
often hostile world that we'rein and an America that no longer
privileges the church.
The sociologists call this amediating institution.
(23:43):
I think Walther saw that.
I mean we don't think aboutWalther in these terms, but it's
true.
He was very interested incharitable works.
There was a fever plague orsomething in St Louis.
He was front and center in that.
We have drifted into anunderstanding of the local
(24:05):
congregation, just as the houseof God.
Okay, and there we go, have aspiritual experience, and I'm
not putting Sundays down.
The congregation in a community, especially in this
post-churched America, is a lotmore than that.
It's one of the few placeswhere we can keep our head on
(24:27):
straight and know that we'reloved.
So your Walther question Iguess you're right.
I've never studied it.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
I don't know he wrote a lot of things, but I think
the heart of Luther and then andthen Walther, obviously the
heart of Paul was it's.
It's all about the local churchand and smaller, larger, it
doesn't really matter Localchurches taking more
responsibility for building upthe next gen.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
Yeah, follow up on that One of the projects I'm
working on is a Concordiacommentary on 1 Peter and I
think when we look back at firstcentury documents we kind of
read them through our eyes.
The church was minuscule, itwas a subset of Judaism in those
(25:17):
first years and in the case of1 Peter he wrote to what we now
call Turkey.
It was existential.
If those people did not staytrue and I won't say it's true
to the church, but if theydidn't hang tight with Jesus and
look forward to his returning,their fellowship would easily
(25:39):
dissipate.
We've got a lot of things goingfor us now that they didn't
have.
We have institutions.
Maybe our institutions aresomewhat outdated, maybe they're
failing.
They certainly needreinvigoration.
We've got a lot more going forus than those first Christians
did.
And you mentioned Corinth.
Look at Corinth.
Look at all the moral problemsthey have.
(26:00):
And we argue over who can go tocommunion and I'm not saying
that's a trivial discussion, I'mnot saying that.
But they had people in Corinthwho denied the resurrection, who
were turning the Lord's Supperinto drinking bouts.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
What are we doing?
So, yeah, the church has alwayshad problems and the church has
always been centered on the onewho came to solve it, I mean
Jesus and the hospitality ofJesus for all of the sinners.
You know, let's go down thispath.
Confession I've said this inmany different and I've had to
(26:39):
live it out.
And being at a church now for12 years, just making it in one
place with a certain group ofpeople in one place, I mean
that's not a small thing and I'dlove to be here for a long
period of time, if the Lord andthe Holy Spirit allows.
But I have to say, I'm sorry,dr Meyer, there are certain
things that I do or don't do.
(27:01):
The list of things that aresins left undone are pretty much
endless.
And so I have to confess and Ineed absolution and I obviously
offer that to one another.
And it feels like in the LCMSsometimes we simply, at various
levels, be it systemically orindividually, we have a hard
time saying you know what?
(27:22):
I thought I was making theright, I didn't have all the
information and I intentionally,or maybe unintentionally, hurt
you, hurt our relationship, hurtthis ministry, whatever we have
to say, it seems so elementary,but I think there's this spirit
of, of pride and fear thatkeeps us from confessing sins of
(27:45):
omission and commission Like,let's just boil it right down Um
, we, we need to be a confessingpeople, we're confess, we're
confessional Lutherans, likethat starts with an
acknowledgement of our, of oursin.
So any thoughts about the, thehesitancy, the systemic pride
and fear that may be taking root?
And well, it obviously istaking root, because sin has
(28:07):
always been crouching at ourdoor and so we just need the
grace of Jesus, the forgiveness,the absolution of Jesus, over
and over again.
But that comes through theconfessing door.
Any more to say there, dr Meyer?
Speaker 3 (28:21):
Yeah, I'm just trying to.
Okay, you may have had thisexperience, but I got a lot of
criticism through the years andsome of it was deserved and some
of it was bogus.
Okay, but I always thought,especially in pastoral ministry,
(28:43):
which I did for 12 years Ialways thought you're
complaining about what I did.
You don't know the half of howscrewed up I am.
They just picked the easyfruits.
I could have laid out a lotmore.
That would have shocked them,probably gotten me fired.
I don't know.
I didn't do okay.
(29:07):
I won't go there, I'm not hidingany gross immoralities or
anything like that, but theother thing, and retirement has
given me a chance to look backat my ministry and also to look
at theology, without some of theconstraints we have in our
denomination, and I believe ourdenomination has a wonderful
(29:31):
gospel.
Okay, amen.
But one of the things that isvery clear to me is Christ, as
we present him, is often afirst-century figure.
You listen to services, sermons, bible classes, read literature
(29:51):
, and it's often aboutfirst-century Jesus.
Well, what Jesus did in thefirst century is absolutely
necessary for our salvation.
I'm not putting that down.
But what we don't emphasize iswhere Jesus is today.
He's exalted, he's reigningover all things for the good of
(30:11):
the church.
He is going to come sooner orlater, probably sooner for me
than for a lot of people, and soI think our lay people, who are
good, faithful lay people, theycan tell you about what Jesus
did for us.
Yeah, he died for my sins andhe rose again.
(30:32):
But by this and it's a result,I think, of the enlightenment
affecting our preaching andteaching there's a void.
It's like before a person goeson stage on camera, you wait in
the green room.
(30:52):
I think most of our people ineffect believe that Jesus was on
stage in the first century, didhis good stuff, and now he's in
the green room and he's notdoing anything.
Well, this comes.
I'm probably getting deeperthan you want to go.
This comes because we haveneglected in our denomination
(31:17):
the ascension.
We have neglected in ourdenomination the ascension.
And by that I don't mean thatThursday in spring when the
farmers would be planting, nowwhen the kids are having their
sports outside.
I don't mean that.
But our liturgy, our lessons,our prayers are all predicated
upon the fact that Christ is notin the manger, he's not on the
(31:40):
cross, he's been out of the tombfor 2,000 years, he is ruling
over all things and he's theLord of the church.
Now NT Wright says and you canpick at NT Wright, go ahead,
he's a heck of a lot smarterthan I am.
But he says if you neglect theascension and all that it
(32:01):
entails, you create a void andsomething has to fill that void.
And he says what fills the voidis the church.
And that, to me, describes whatI see today.
The church has confused itsbeing with Jesus.
The church is not Jesus, thechurch is not Jesus.
(32:22):
The church is over Jesus.
He sustains us, he supports us,but he also criticizes us.
If we had this sense of theLord is over me and he's looking
over me now.
1 Peter, 1.17,.
God is judging us right now forour actions.
(32:44):
Okay, if we had this sense,it'd be no big deal to say, hey,
I screwed this up, I reallyscrewed this up.
And it'd be no big deal forsomebody to say, well, dale,
yeah, you really did screw it up, but that's okay, let's get on
with it.
So I think the biggesttheological issue facing the
(33:05):
Missouri Synod right now andagain I say that we have
preached Jesus faithfully.
I'm not saying that we'reteaching false doctrine, but
we're not preaching and teachinghim as fully as we could.
He's reigning over all things,he's guiding all things in the
interest of his church.
Okay, that's a wholedissertation that has to be
looked at and he's going tobring us home and that
(33:32):
Christocentricity then has to— Ithink Christocentricity is the
thing that we need to get backto, more than we have, and that
is going to separate us fromnominal Christians and nominal
churches.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
Dr Meyer preach.
That was spectacular.
Oh my gosh, you need to go back, listener.
Those three minutes, a littlehomily.
Jesus is, yes, the crucified,risen and reigning one over all
of creation.
He sits at the right hand ofthe Father.
He's not in the green room,he's at work.
(34:12):
So I got a couple.
Let's go deeper theologicallyin this.
So what would you say tosomeone who says judge by my
works, what's Peter even gettingat?
I think Lutherans, in our twokinds of righteousness law,
gospel, et cetera we strugglewith this.
He's going to judge On the lastday.
(34:32):
I'm going to have to give anaccount for it.
This is all in the Bible, daleAre.
Are we reading the Bible?
Like, how are we supposed tomake sense, sense of this?
You know that.
Um, that Jesus is and I'veactually referred to this
recently Like I have to confess,I will confess how I led those
who desire to be an overseer,desire, desire.
You know a hard thing.
(34:53):
Um, you'll be held to accountfor how you cared for, led,
shepherded the people of GodLike I do.
I do not take this lightly.
Is that the law?
Yeah, I guess, but it's leadingme to confess Holy Spirit.
I need a lot of help, becauseif Tim gets in the way, this is
really going to not go, not go,great.
So what do you say to theperson who say I thought I'm
judged according to my faith,not by my, not by my works.
(35:14):
Dr Meyer, let's go, let's godeeper.
Speaker 3 (35:17):
Well, several things.
First of all, about ourscrew-ups in the ministry, and
earlier I told you about mymountaintop experiences.
I could give you a long list ofmy screw-ups.
Martin Luther says in hisHeidelberg Disputation from 1518
(35:38):
, that every Christian has to dowhatever we do in the fear of
God, the fear that what I'mdoing actually might be a
damnable work, but we entrust itto the Lord in the fear of God.
And that fear of God is areverential fear.
It's not a slavish fear.
(35:58):
God, and that fear of God is areverential fear.
It's not a slavish fear.
But as Peter says in 117, ifyou call him Father, who judges
impartially according to eachone's work, okay, so our Father
is also judging us.
He's watching what we're doing.
2 Corinthians 5.10,.
(36:20):
We must all appear before thejudgment seat of Christ that we
may receive for what we havedone in our bodies, be it good
or evil.
And it's all over the place.
It's all over the place.
We have these sometimesLutheran blinders on that.
We skip over those passages andwe'll say, yeah, Jesus is going
to take care of that, he'sgoing to take care of that.
(36:46):
The Reformation was the firsttime when we made a sharp
distinction betweenjustification and sanctification
.
Up until that time, Christiantheologians said that God
sanctifies you and that's totalbody, sanctification,
(37:09):
justification and sanctification, sanctification in the broader
sense.
Well, the medieval churchtwisted or followed human nature
and all of a sudden it becomesworks that you do so.
Luther very correctly made thatsharp distinction works that
(37:30):
you do so.
Luther very correctly made thatsharp distinction.
What's happened since is, Ithink, that we have stressed I'm
saved by grace, through faith,not by works, and we hang our
hat on that without and weforget that we're still come
before judgment for our works.
Now, what do we say?
(37:52):
Okay, so I've been an itinerantpreacher.
Nobody has me back, buteverybody will have me at least
one time.
And as an itinerant, I wouldoften use two questions.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
I said I'm going to.
Speaker 3 (38:09):
Okay, I'm going to ask you a question, two
questions, and if you get thisright, I'll end the sermon and
you can go home and watch afootball game, okay?
First question is does Godjudge according to works?
Well, you know Lutherans, theirnecks don't move.
Okay, eventually, some sweetold lady will say no, shake her
(38:30):
head, no.
I said well, I'm sorry, but Goddoes judge according to works
and the passages that I recitedbefore.
I said but okay, if you can getthe second question right, I'll
still end the sermon, go homeand watch the football game.
Are we saved by works?
(38:51):
Well, now they're an extraloose.
No, no, no, no, no, we're notsaved by works.
Yes, we are.
And they're looking at me likewhat's this new heresy coming
out of St Louis?
I said we're saved by Jesus'works, not by ours.
(39:12):
And then I quote it's in theLutheran hymnal.
I don't know if our new bookwe've had a number of new books
in my ministry Thy works notmine, o Christ.
Thy works not mine, o Christ.
Be gladness to the heart.
They tell me all is done.
They bid my fear depart.
To whom save thee?
Who canst alone for sin?
(39:33):
Atone Lord, shall I flee?
And Augsburg Confession teachesthat we have a gracious God by
the gospel.
How does it go when we believethis?
My memory is failing now, butthis augsburg five, which talks
(39:56):
about the ministry, talks aboutthe works of christ.
When we believe that, so yeah,we're saved by the works of
christ, not by our works, andand faith in the confessions is
hanging on to what Jesus hasdone.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Well, so this is exactly right.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
So I'm glad.
I'm glad to know that.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
You're welcome.
You've been reading the Bible,dr Meyer.
Praise God.
So, like the parable of thetalents, they're already in
relationship with the master.
Let's just look at this oneparable, a late parable of Jesus
, and they've been givendifferent gifts to steward.
You know, a talent is money,but it could be, you know, just
your influence, your vocation,your various vocations of
(40:40):
influence, to advance, tomultiply, to risk, to actually
invest the master's resources.
And the sin of omission in thatone is the third one given one
time he buries it and the mastercomes back and says you, wicked
servant, like there is this.
All I'm saying is there is thisresponse to whom much has been
(41:03):
given, much is required, and forthose of you who are in a
respective seed of influencethat could amplify, multiply,
move the gospel forward, butwe're living with protective
fear, we're hoarding the gift.
This is an inappropriateresponse to the gospel of Jesus
Christ and we can't hang our hat.
This is cheap, this is cheapgrace, right, we can't hang our
(41:23):
hat on.
You know that God doesn'treally care about how I'm
stewarding the people, theresources.
No, god is, god is a judge andthere will come a day of
judgment, and praise be to God.
We're saved by the work ofChrist, but this always leads to
a response of faith anddependence, humility, the fruit
of the spirit being more seen inour, in our lives.
(41:43):
So any, any responses, the HolySpirit's kind of working on
your mind, as I even bring up aparable, like the parable of the
talents, dr Meyer.
Speaker 3 (41:51):
Yeah, the talents are about the faith that God's
given us, and some people havemustard seed faith.
I always think that I have amustard seed faith.
Well, it's going to show you.
Don't bury your talent.
And one of the places that thatthat faith shows, I think and
can show, is in good works inthe community.
No, we're not saved by goodworks.
(42:13):
But Luther says because in thefreedom of a Christian he says,
we've been saved.
The only reason God's leavingus here is to do good works.
Goes back to show me what afriend I have.
Don't tell me what a friend Ihave in Jesus.
Tell me what a friend I have inyou.
One of the challenges is ourcongregations, in my estimation,
(42:39):
need to be much more active inour communities.
Whatever that is and I'm nottalking about evangelism efforts
, homeless soup kitchens,habitat for humanity, carter
thing, that's love, that's faithin action.
(43:02):
Ministerial Alliance in ourtown here in Collinsville, is
called Faith in Action.
That's yeah, that's it.
So the talents, you know, evena mustard seed talent is enough
for salvation.
But 1 Corinthians 3 says onthat day, the day of fire, the
last day, all that we do isgoing to be tested, and a lot of
(43:25):
the things we do as churchleaders and me are going to be
tried by fire and they won'tendure.
First Corinthians are a hugepassage, so yeah, this is good.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
Thanks be to God that we have one, and this is one of
the gifts of being a Lutheran.
We sit in the tension of saintand sinner right and the tension
of two kinds of righteousness.
For those of you who don't knowthe righteousness that I have
by faith in the Son of Godbecause of the work of Christ,
that's a quorum deo vertical andthen horizontally.
(44:06):
That gets lived out.
God doesn't need our good works, but our neighbor does, and
we're actually a livingmanifestation.
God has been unleashed upon theworld through his people and
Jesus is, yes, our Lord and alsoour judge.
So there's this kind of duality, this tension that exists in
good Lutheran theology andthat's all you hear us talking
about, like everybody's beentalking about since Jesus came
(44:27):
the juxtaposition or theinterconnection between faith
and works Really commentary onJames here, as we've been coming
down the homestretch.
So I got one kind of last topicI'd love to discuss and I know
you've discussed this in othersettings as well Retirement and
(44:48):
this kind of season.
We're hardwired to work and youcontinue to work, you continue
to preach.
You're hilarious.
People don't have you back.
I'm sure many have had you backmultiple times, dr Meyer, but
it's different now in this chair, in your man cave, than it's
been in some other chairs you'vesat in.
Would you talk just about whatthis experience is like in this
(45:10):
season of life?
And before I turn it to you forthese last comments, I want you
to know and I think there's anumber of different leaders that
I try to reach out to men whoused to occupy one and they're
not in the same chair anymore.
Your voice is still very, verysignificant for me and for the
church.
I know you don't need to hearthat.
(45:31):
The ego doesn't need to hearthat I just have been privileged
for the last 45 minutes tospend time talking about Jesus
with you.
So you're not, you're notretired, you're just in a
different, different season.
But there is some grief, Iguess, to land the plane.
There is some grief in thisseason for you.
Would you talk about that, drMeyer?
Speaker 3 (45:49):
Yeah, I appreciate the question.
In my jobs especially the lastone at the seminary I wake up
early, four o'clock, that's themilkman in me and one of the
first things I would do is checkmy emails.
You know, where did I screw up?
(46:13):
What needs to be done?
What meetings do I have to goto?
Da, da, da and bingo, the day Igot my last paycheck, that all
stopped.
You know, I'm thrilled now toget junk emails because at least
somebody's, somebody's writingto me.
So I've had a hard transition,and not that not saying that
(46:35):
that's true of everybody.
If you've been cooped up in afactory your whole life, man,
it's probably like the bird canfly out of the cage and do
whatever you want, but it's beenhard for me.
But either way, if retirementhas been easy or difficult, what
has become obvious to me isthat the church is not preparing
(47:00):
us spiritually for retirement,and I'm indicting my own
ministry and I'm indicting myown ministry.
The church teaches us how todie, but how do we live between
(47:25):
that last paycheck and the 5, 10, 30 years before we decline and
die?
What we pick up, what I pick upall the time, is well, be
active.
Okay, I don't know how yourcongregation is, but I think
most of the volunteers areretired people.
Be active, and that's fine.
My mom was active until shepassed away at almost 97 years
old and I've got so many ironsin the fire.
(47:46):
I need to live and be activefor the next 20 or 30 years,
okay, but that's a dodge.
That's dodging.
You can't always be active.
The end is coming.
You're going to die.
In view of that, how do weunderstand these retirement
(48:06):
years?
That?
How do we understand theseretirement years?
My answer to cut to the chaseor, as you say, to land this
plane had an old guy in my firstchurch.
He called it a fliver.
He says a fliver.
It wasn't an airplane, hetalked about flying on a fliver.
(48:32):
What is a fliver?
I've never heard that term, drMeyer.
It's an old, old name for anairplane, a fliver.
I mean, I'll have to Google itwhen I hang up, but this guy was
a character and he alwaystalked about flivers.
Maybe he meant the airplane.
Anyway, so to land thisairplane, the best way that I've
come to understand retirementis the Sabbath.
Okay, the weekly Sabbath,understood in a Christian sort
(48:56):
of way, not a legalisticSaturday off.
Okay, but Jews kept the Sabbathwhen they rested with God, just
as God rested with creation.
On the seventh day.
A big day for the Jews wasFriday, the day of preparation.
(49:16):
That was a day of activity.
That's a day when you get allthe food in, the things that you
need for the Sabbath daybecause you're not going to do
it on the Sabbath day.
But Friday was an active day ofpreparation.
That's how I'm understandingretirement.
Retirement is the day ofpreparation before the eternal
(49:37):
Sabbath, hebrews, chapter 3.
That makes sense to me.
But going back to my ownministry and what I've picked up
in the church, we're notpreparing our people for this
spiritual understanding ofretirement.
And Dale Meyer, who's he?
Billy Graham said this in hisbook Nearing Home.
(50:00):
He said you know, the churchteaches us how to die, but it
doesn't teach us how to livebefore we die.
Amen.
Speaker 2 (50:09):
Amen, amen.
I I want to be like you whenI'm in your season, Dr Meyer.
I'm serious about that.
I think our personalities arekind of similar.
I'm just a generation or sobehind, I mean driven.
Similar I'm just a generationor so behind, I mean driven.
(50:32):
You love moving and trying andfailing and I love entering into
difficult projects and eveninteracting with difficult
people.
I find people very, veryfascinating and that work for
you while it's you're inpreparation stage.
It's just different but you'restill right.
So what are your final like twoor three things that are
getting you up every day?
You're writing commentaries.
What else are you doing toadvance the gospel in this day
(50:55):
of preparation, dr Meyer?
Speaker 3 (50:58):
Well, the seminary doesn't need me anymore,
lutheran hour doesn't need meanymore.
I volunteered our church toteach a Bible class.
But the answer to that questionis tomorrow needs me.
Speaker 2 (51:14):
Amen.
Speaker 3 (51:14):
Tomorrow needs me, Even after I'm laid to rest in
the church cemetery, the thingsI'm writing and hopefully that
will have some endurance.
I'm doing this for tomorrowwhen I'm gone.
Speaker 2 (51:35):
Hey, I've done gosh hundreds I don't know if it's
thousands of podcasts now overthe last decade and this is one
of my top.
I've laughed and had so muchjoy as I've gotten to talk to
you today.
So thank you for spreading thejoy of Jesus and for continuing
to charge.
The Lord has given you acharging voice.
You're I don't know if I'mgoing to throw out apostolic
(51:55):
prophetic I mean, you just areone of those leaders that we
need to continue to listen totoday.
Your voice, your perspective,the way the Holy Spirit rests
upon you, connected to thenever-changing word, is a gift
to me and to all who are goingto take in this conversation
today, Dr Meyer.
So thank you, Thank you, Thankyou.
If people want to send thatemail that you just may open up
with joy, where could they sendthat email?
(52:17):
And I hope honestly listener,like just send, Dr Meyer, a
story or two of how you'vetouched my life.
I got to tell it to you inperson, but, yeah, where could
they connect with you via anemail, Dr Meyer?
Speaker 3 (52:29):
Well.
Thank you, pastor, for yourkind words and blessings on you.
May you have 30, 40, 50 moreyears of active ministry.
I do put out a I've resurrecteda little mailing called the
Meyer Minute Just 300 words ofthought.
(52:53):
People can write to me atMeyerD M-E-Y-E-R-D.
Small letters, m-e-y-e-r-d.
At CSLedu, concordiastlouiseduMeyerD.
At CSD-U, concordia, st Louis,dot E-D-U.
Meyer D at C-S-L dot E-D-U.
Speaker 2 (53:10):
Thank you, pastor.
They can get on that MeyerMinute there as well.
They can just request to be onthat email.
That's so good, okay.
Speaker 3 (53:17):
It's a mom and pop operation but yeah, it's so good
.
Speaker 2 (53:21):
Hey, dr Meyer, this has been a kick.
This is lead time.
Please like, subscribe, comment.
Wherever it is you take in thisconversation, subscribing and
commenting really helps multiplythe message and hopefully
you're leaving today filled withjoy, filled with challenge, for
Jesus is the lover of our soulsas well as our judge, and the
(53:41):
days are too short to doanything other than work to
advance his message, his messageof love and care, and a day of
judgment quickly approaching,where the sheep and the goats
will be separated.
It's a wonderful day.
Go and make it a great day bythe power of the Spirit and the
Word.
Thank you, dr Barron.
Speaker 1 (53:57):
You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the
Unite Leadership Collective.
The ULC's mission is tocollaborate with the local
church to discover, develop anddeploy leaders through biblical
Lutheran doctrine and innovativemethods To partner with us in
this gospel message.
Subscribe to our channel, thengo to theuniteleadershiporg to
create your free login forexclusive material and resources
(54:19):
and then to explore ways inwhich you can sponsor an episode
.
Thanks for listening and staytuned for next week's episode.
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