August 13, 2025 • 30 mins
If you care about the future of the LCMS, you won’t want to miss this one.
Your perspective matters, let's have discussion that honors Christ!
New LCMS data reveals a stunning reality: nearly three-quarters of congregations worship fewer than 100 people each week. Tim and Jack unpack what this means for the future of our pastors, our mission, and our very identity as a church body. Are we facing an “emerging emergency” in staffing, sustainability, and representation? From micro-church struggles to the influence of large congregations, this candid conversation doesn’t shy away from the hard truths — and the hopeful opportunities.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is Lead Time.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Welcome to Lead Time, tim Allman, here with Jack
Kalberg.
It's a beautiful day to bealive.
Pray, the joy and love of Jesusis firing you up today for some
learning.
And today Jack and I aretalking about LCMS data as it
relates to congregational size.
The LCMS recently came out withthe data in 2024 on the sizes
(00:25):
of congregations in the LCMS,and we're going to walk through
some of the implications of thisnew data, jack.
How you doing, though, beforewe get into this, I'm doing well
, man.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
It's a beautiful time For those.
I don't know exactly when we'llbe publishing this episode, but
, tim, you're getting ready todo some time on sabbatical.
That must be exciting for youand I'm doing everything I can
to make sure I'm prepared wellfor that not having you around
for a while.
But I'm excited for you and I'malso excited with the season
(00:59):
that we're at with our church.
We've seen a lot of growth.
It's been a lot of.
It's a real joyful thing to gothrough that and after a season
maybe where we've kind of saw alittle bit of a flat line with
attendance, kind of seeing a newgrowth cycle happening, and
it's always really fun.
But it also creates a lot ofproblems and I like to call them
fun problems things likeparking and stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Yeah, there are some fun problems.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
Well.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Let's get into the conversation.
Today we have congregationalaverage worship attendance sizes
and in the LCMS and we knowthis and we've known it for a
while we're trending.
Our congregations generally arenot growing.
I think a lot of them are, andif you're a member of a church,
(01:47):
you're probably seeing thisacross the church body.
Most of them, a lot of them,are holding serve God willing
and many of them are declining.
So what was most shocking to meis this stat point I'll let you
move from here, jack is that45% of our congregations worship
(02:09):
less than 50 people, and thatmakes up 2,652 congregations in
the LCMS, and then moving up to128.2%, making up 1,634
congregations worship between 51and 100.
(02:30):
And so, as if you're watching,we're sharing screen right now
that means that, uh, 73.9percent of LCMS congregations
worship less than 100 people ona respective Sunday.
Um, that's, that's aninteresting data point, jack.
What are some of theramifications of that?
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Yeah, so the the church size that we're talking
about of zero to 50, that wouldbe generally what we would
classify as a micro church, likesometimes well, you'll hear the
term like house church ormicrosite, microlocation,
microplant.
That would be generally the sizethat we're thinking about zero
(03:08):
to 50.
And what's interesting aboutthat size of a church in
particularly is that that is atype of congregation, based on
its demographics, that wouldreally struggle to afford a
fully seasoned, full-time, whatwe call called and ordained
pastor to serve at their church.
(03:29):
When you think about what asalary and benefits would be for
one full-time person with anMDiv right, they would really
struggle to provide that fullbenefit and pay package.
And so what you would expect,especially in the context of a
pastoral shortage that we'redealing with, that you're
(03:50):
probably seeing a large numberof these churches really, really
struggle to staff.
Some of them may have pastorsthat are serving in that context
already, but if they lose themor if he retires, they're going
to have a real, real, real, realdifficult time, especially in
the context of a pastoralshortage, filling that vacancy
(04:11):
and then kind of moving beyondthat into.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Let me pause on that Before we move on.
Congregations that don't have apastor are in transition.
Their pastor is nearingretirement.
A pastor are in transition.
Their pastor is nearingretirement.
The economic realities,especially in some of our higher
cost living communities thinkSan Diego, la, new York.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Phoenix.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
I mean our housing costs have gone very high, so
that makes it all the moredifficult, increasingly
difficult with the elevated costof living for a congregation to
afford a pastor.
Yeah, Any thoughts there?
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Jack, well, yeah, and I'm thinking in terms of
national average, but you'reabsolutely correct.
Like I would say, it might beeven more challenging in Los
Angeles or San Diego if thatwere the case for the
congregation.
Even now in Gilbert, wherewe're at Tim, it's getting
pricey for housing.
Mesa is a little bit moreaffordable, you know Apache
Junction is more affordable, butdefinitely the town we're in
we're seeing some of that impactof housing making it difficult
(05:11):
to transition church workersfrom outside of this area in
I'll use myself as an example,myself as an example.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
I couldn't afford the house I live in right now.
Jack, right, you know what I'msaying.
Yeah, like our houses and youmay say, well, great for you and
equity, but I'm thinking aboutmy kids and I'm thinking about
future church workers.
You know it's like what are wedoing here?
You know like this is veryeconomically challenging,
especially if you're a smallercongregation worshiping a
hundred or less, to get someonefrom outside to come to your
(05:43):
urban or suburban community.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Yep.
And so what's happening now andthis is what I would expect is
you're going to see a lot ofsmall LCMS churches.
They may continue to decline ifthey have a sustained vacancy,
or they may shutter or they mayleave the denomination.
(06:07):
That's possible too.
I've heard some talk from somepeople that we're starting to
see some smaller churches leavethe denomination because other
church bodies have maybe moreaccessible systems to get
pastors in place, either raisingthem up locally and we're not
having a conversation aboutadvocating for changing anything
(06:28):
here.
We've made a commitment not tomake certain critiques about our
system, but there aredemographic issues that our
church body is going to have todeal with and think about the
implications about that.
So right now, I think what theLCMS is going to have to tackle
(06:49):
and this isn't a side issue,because look at the stats here
so if you look at again, 45% ofthese churches being in this
category, with 50 members orless, to dip into the next
category, this next category ofchurches I'm calling small
churches.
These are 50 to 200.
That's typically what we call asmall church.
Well, some of those would stillprobably be in the category of
(07:10):
struggling to afford a pastor,because really, about 75 in
worship is about what a churchneeds to have to be able to hire
one person full time and havesome other money to do other
stuff with that person, right,hire one person full time and
have some other money to doother stuff with that person,
right.
Otherwise, if you're anythingless than that, you're probably
(07:32):
spending like way too much ofyour budget trying to cover the
staffing piece and not havingany resources to do anything
like maintain your building ordo marketing or anything like
that.
So if you look at thosechurches too and you add that,
you're probably looking atroughly 60% of LCMS
congregations that are in thecategory of potentially
struggling to recruit externallypastors when a vacancy occurs
(07:55):
in their local context.
I'm not saying they're allvacant.
I think our numbers right nowis that roughly six to 700
churches currently have avacancy.
But what's going to happen iswhen somebody retires and we're
hearing that people are stayingway, you know, way longer than
they've expected in ministrybecause there's just nobody to
fill their role.
So this is, I would say, reallyyou know, when we think about
(08:17):
what are these numbers tellingus.
Recently, our seminarypresidents got onto, all Things
Considered and kind of saidthere's not an emergency, not an
emergency with regards topastoral staffing.
It's urgent, but not anemergency.
I would say maybe it is anemerging emergency that's
happening right now in terms ofour ability to staff pastors.
(08:40):
That's what the data is tellingme, and I think that we're
going to feel the impacts ofthat more and more over the next
decade or two.
And then what might happen?
This is kind of crazy.
What might happen even in thefuture if you project far out,
if some of these churches arejust never staffed, they may
shutter or leave our church body, and then you may have kind of
(09:00):
a self-fulfilling prophecy whereat that point in time, the
amount of pastors being producedactually does match the
churches that you have, notbecause you've grown the
pipeline, but because thesechurches don't exist anymore,
sadly.
So that's an interesting kindof thought experiment to go that
far out, right.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
No comment yeah, no comment yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
So, all that being said, we're just saying we're
really just talking aboutnumbers right now and in terms
of like there's numbers andthere's urgency, and we're just
kind of being blunt about that,without we're not advocating
that anybody do anything that'snot authorized or anything like
that.
That's not what we're saying.
But we are saying there is anurgency here on this matter.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
So only slightly more than 10% of LCMS congregations
worship more than 200 people aweek, so that means, in effect,
the LCMS is a church body ofmany, many small congregations
Anything more to add there.
How does that shape the natureof our discourse?
Speaker 3 (10:03):
Yeah, so 7.9%, just about 8% of congregations are
worshiping in the range of 200to 500.
I'm calling those medium-sizedchurches.
Generally, medium-sized isclassified as 200 to 400, but
they don't break it out here.
They go to 500.
So, roughly speaking, that'sthe number of what we call
medium-sized churches, and then1.4% worships 500 or more.
(10:28):
So that would be roughly thecutoff to be a large church.
1.4% of LCMS churches areclassified as large churches.
Now there's sizes beyond large,what we call mid-mega, that's
the 1,000 plus, and then megachurch is 2,000 plus, and we'd
have no data on that.
I imagine that number is verysmall.
(10:49):
We are now in a season rightnow where we're just approaching
the thousand, the thousand markat Christ Greenfield, with some
of the growth that we've seenrecently.
So we might be, might beclassified in that mid mega
range, but I imagine that numberhas got to be really small.
Now here's the thing.
There's something called thePareto principle, and the Pareto
principle usually kind of saysthat 20% of the activity or 20%
(11:15):
of the participation isresponsible for 80% of the
result.
I would say that probably holdstrue very much.
In this chart.
We're seeing a Pareto type ofdistribution happening, and so
what I would guess is thatroughly 80% of LCMS worshipers
are being represented by 20% ofchurches, with most of those
(11:37):
churches kind of being in that,you know, 250 plus range.
So that would represent aboutmaybe 1,100 to 1,200
congregations, representing 80%of the actual full church body
of the LCMS.
So an interesting question thatthat kind of reveals to us is
if that's true, if 80% of ourchurch body is concentrated in
(12:02):
these churches, how well of ajob are we doing with
representation at the nationallevel?
Are we representing that 80%really well in when it comes to
policymaking and sort of thefuture values and visions of the
church moving forward withmission?
So what are your thoughts, tim,on that kind of observation?
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Tim Cynova 00,00,00.
Well, I think generally ourcircuit distribution works
because it is based on theamount of members, Okay, and
congregate, so.
So you have representationthere for synod resolutions,
bylaws, et cetera.
(12:42):
And and then at the nationallevel, though, we made the
change on the vote for presidentright, when every congregation
gets one one vote past, gets onepastoral and one lay vote.
That means that that vote inparticular is definitely
weighted in balance toward ahigher voice for smaller
(13:03):
communities.
So that's kind of how it playsout at the national level.
And yeah, I mean, I just amcoming off.
That's a fascinating insight Ithink for folks kind of just
kind of running through thesenumbers, 2010, I think, was when
Synod Convention made thatchange.
That was connected to the BlueRibbon Task Force, giving
(13:24):
greater representation to everycongregation representation to
every congregation, I think.
In effect, it sounds good, butI don't know that.
We saw 15 years ago where we'dbe today in terms of the sizes
of our congregations.
Right, you have any thoughtsthere?
Speaker 3 (13:39):
Well, and to be clear here, we are not disparaging
small churches and what theybring to the table, and I think
a lot of times some of the mostinteresting innovation can
happen in the small churchcontext.
But, that being said, you maysee in a church that's dominated
by small congregations thatsome of the decision making that
(14:03):
happens are decisions thatensure that more of the body
starts to look like the smallchurches.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
So give me an example , Jack, I don't know Well.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
I guess you know we just get very, very high level
here.
We have a conversation aboutmissional versus confessional
right and generally speaking, Iwould say that the churches now
this is this is an over overover, a broad statement.
I'm just saying that right offthe bat here.
(14:36):
But I'd say the reasons whymany of these LCMS churches that
are large have gotten large insome cases is because they've
really taken a missionalattitude towards reaching the
community.
Now, that's not 100 percenttrue.
Sometimes these churches justhappen to be in Lutherpalooza in
(14:57):
terms of their demographicsright.
So some cases it's just likethis city is Lutheran.
That's why this church is sobig.
But in many other cases, likehere in Arizona, you know, if
you're a big Lutheran church,it's because you've been very
missional and very proactive inreaching the community and
showing a lot of hospitality topeople that may not have
Lutheran roots.
So what you may see is anunderrepresentation of the
(15:18):
missional perspective within ourchurch body, whereas many of
these small churches may besmall because they've not
adopted as much of a missionalperspective on things.
And they may be small becausethey've not adopted as much of a
missional perspective on thingsand they may be in declining
communities.
That's 100 percent.
So that's something to be like,fair.
(15:38):
This is like the nuance of theconversation.
Sometimes a church is in a farmarea and people are leaving
that area because it's machineryand automation and people you
know, big corporations buying upfarms and it makes sense that
that church would declinebecause the city is declining.
So that's a total fair contextto add on that.
And I, you know, to be fair,this chart doesn't tell you that
.
This chart doesn't tell youwhat percentage of that is due
(16:00):
to demographic decline versuswhat percentage of it is
declining because they've justnot been as hospitable and
missional to the community.
It's a mix, probably, right.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Yeah, it's on a church by church basis and-.
On a church by church basis.
But I'm also, like I think, alot of times I'm thinking of
Lyman Stone and his demographicdata and seeing an increase in
young people desiring liturgicalworship in churches that
prioritize that may see more ofa growth, I would say, at least
(16:31):
as long as they are hospitable,like.
This is a community that willlove and care for you and will
bring you into the riches of ourLutheran liturgy, of our
Lutheran liturgy, and I thinkthat there's a lot of potential
in this day and age, especiallywith the new Pope coming in.
A revival of sorts, I think, isin the water for something that
is ancient, something that istraditional, and so we're
(16:53):
advocates.
Do your liturgy very, very well, excellent, excellent liturgy.
Do not compromise what it meansto be a Lutheran and how we
articulate God coming to us.
Not compromise what it means tobe a Lutheran and how we
articulate God coming to us inthe divine service, to be sure,
but you can be both open toreaching more people with the
gospel, and you could say higherchurch, lutheran, liturgical,
(17:15):
etc.
So you can see both thingshappening at the same time.
I think what you're saying isit's the posture of the
congregation toward theircommunity.
Do we exist for ourselves or do.
We exist to get the gospel intoas many hearts and ears as
possible, and so, yeah, I'mpraying that there's a revival
of many of these congregationsthat are small, that start to
(17:39):
dream new dreams, reach newpeople with the gospel, while
not compromising what it meansto be St John's Lutheran Church
in rural America, wherever theyhappen to be.
We're definitely not anti-smallchurch at all, but we do see
and I think this demographic isseen true in the wider American
church, not just in the LCMS isthat larger churches generally
(18:01):
are becoming larger and smallerchurches are are becoming larger
and smaller churches aregenerally becoming smaller.
So a big question for me,looking at this, there's 15% of
our congregations worshipingbetween 100 and 200 people.
In the coming decade, whichdirection will many of those
congregations go?
Will they grow or decline?
Anything more to say?
Speaker 3 (18:19):
to that.
I think it's going to be both,and I think you're going to see
a lot more really tiny churchesand a lot more really, really,
really big churches, and bothare going to play a very
important role in reaching thenext generation with
Christianity.
I think the question is, ifthat's true, then how do we
create really good systems forboth of that Right, how do we
create and you know we're goingthrough consultation right now,
(18:42):
tim, about how we grow.
We're going through somegrowing pains right now and we
need external, we need anexternal voice on that, and we
need to learn from people thatare more seasoned operating in
bigger churches than we've beenin.
And I think, also a church bodyif that's the reality, if, let's
say, the economics is reallysmall and really big at the same
(19:03):
time how does a church body getreally, really, really, really
good at equipping and staffingthese really tiny churches?
What is their model to do that?
How do you articulate thatmodel to your body so that they
can participate fully in that,and is it a really good, viable
model to work that way, fully inthat and is it a really good,
viable model to work that way?
(19:24):
I think that's a really reallyimportant question that every
church body needs to deal with,and especially our own church
body needs to deal with that.
I don't know what that answeris right now.
I don't know what would you sayis kind of what's being
communicated as the answer tothat.
Oh no, jack.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
But what I?
Speaker 2 (19:45):
can say is I know there's a lot of district
presidents that want theirchurches not to close.
Speaker 3 (19:54):
I agree.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
And want to explore whatever it takes to keep that
gospel footprint, because whenwe close a church we lose a
gospel asset.
Man, I don't care if thedistrict or synod gets millions
of dollars Like that is awful,that is hard.
Now those resources can berepositioned to other places.
Hopefully the resources stay inthat circuit, stay in that area
so that new dreams for newministries can kind of go about.
(20:18):
But to your point, unlessthere's leaders to kind of
execute on those new things orthe revitalization work, it's
going to be hard sledding intothe future.
But I do know that fromnational, the district level, we
all agree we want to see far,far, far fewer closures of our
congregations and that shouldnecessitate conversations on how
(20:40):
we keep that, how we keep thatfrom happening.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
Anything more.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
I mean, let me I'll throw this out there If only
1.4% of our congregationsworship 500 or more a weekend,
that's a small, that's 82congregations, by the way that's
82 congregations.
That's a very smallrepresentation and we're in that
category right.
Very small representation of whowe are as a national church
(21:06):
body.
But the question is too, inthose 82 congregations I know,
probably the majority of thosehave larger staffs.
Probably a majority of thosehave Lutheran schools, and so
what percentage, if you just addmaybe the 300, and that's about
5% if you go 300 in worship ormore what percentage of
(21:28):
commissioned ministers and staffthat are fueling our Concordia
plans are a part of thosecongregations?
I would venture to guess andagain I don't have this data- A
lot more 40 to 50 percent iswhat I would say are those who
are in Concordia plans arerepresented in that smaller
group of 300 plus in worshipcongregations.
So what are your thoughts there, Jack?
Speaker 3 (21:49):
Yeah, I mean I think I talked about the Pareto
principle in terms ofcongregation size and actual
membership, but I think you'reright.
I think when you factor inschools and the fact that you
have schools that might be, youknow, disproportionately large
to their worshiping body, Ithink that that, from a staffing
perspective and the number ofpeople that are rostered, you
(22:12):
know of staffing participation,so that's something to think
about.
Like you know, how well are werepresenting staffing right,
those who are in professionalchurch work in total, when you
(22:33):
factor in teachers and schooladministrators and DCEs and
music directors and all thatkind of stuff, how well is that
represented?
Or is there a very, very highconcentration that doesn't
necessarily get therepresentation that it needs to
get?
Speaker 2 (22:47):
And when you say representation, what do you mean
?
Speaker 3 (22:50):
I think, in terms of a church, you know, like a
church, a national church body'sethos, right?
Or you know, speaking into theoverall vision and values of a
church body, right?
There are, tim, multipleconfessional Lutheran church
(23:10):
bodies in the United States.
Sometimes we act like we're theonly ones, but we're actually
an altar and pulpit fellowshipwith other Lutheran church
bodies in America that areconfessional Lutheran, right,
and they're different than theLCMS.
They've got different sets ofvalues, they've got different
polity that you know.
So we as a church body, we cometogether and we vote about the
things that make us uniquelyLCMS, and is that representation
(23:33):
happening well from our entireworkforce, right?
Is that being spoken into?
Or is that maybe is some ofthat voice being lost because of
the concentration that existsin these, in these church bodies
?
I don't, I don't know theanswer, but I think what we're
saying is like, maybe that isthe case, that there's not as
much of a voice that needs to beshared there.
(23:54):
I'm being fair, I'm being kindof speculative here because I
don't have all of the data.
We're just kind of making somerationalizations here about what
this may be looking like.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
Well, I can tell you on behalf of many commission
ministers that they feel likethey have not had a voice
throughout their entire ministryat the district or national
level.
And there have been somecreative overtures to add
representation.
Because at the national levelyou get one pastor and one lay
(24:25):
per circuit.
Right Now, I know this wouldadd, but there's some
resolutions going on meaning addresources to give voice here.
You know the National SynodConvention which is taking place
here in Phoenix in July of 26,.
It's an expensive endeavor,right, you're bringing a lot of
people into the city and so thiswould add to the expense for
(24:45):
sure.
But to get more representationyou could add one more lay vote
per circuit and then you couldadd one more commission votes.
You'd have two lay votes andthen two rostered church work.
One pastor, one commissionminister.
That seems reasonable.
It does.
I think there's some logisticsthat have to get figured out to
make that happen, but we'll seewhat the future holds.
(25:08):
In our district, jack, you and Iare going to be at our district
convention.
We're going to have theadvisory vote of the commission
ministers.
So every time, somethingnon-electoral, meaning it's not
an office, it's being a vicepresident or senate president or
district president that's beingelected, every other resolution
that comes, or overture thatgets presented to the floor.
(25:29):
We're going to see.
What do the commissionministers think about it?
And it was kind of cool threeyears ago.
The voters went, they agreedwith the advice of the
commission ministers.
There was great influence inthat voice prior to the actual
vote.
And there's a number I don'tknow how many, but there's a
number of other districts thathave some similar arrangement.
(25:51):
Could a similar arrangementalso be made at the national
level?
Maybe I think many of themwould appreciate not just having
an advisory vote but an actualvote.
But we'll see.
But that does color the natureof the national church body
conversation when the majorityof those workers are in
(26:12):
congregations that can't affordthem, frankly, because they have
schools and kind of an economicengine to make the education
thing happen.
So yeah, jack, I don't know thatthere's much else to say.
I the tone of this.
People listen to lead time andthey're like man you guys talk
about some hard like leadershipis talking about what is.
I can't.
(26:32):
I can't live in what I wouldlike it to be.
I have to live in in what is,and this is from a demographic
perspective.
Besides the congregations, thisis is what it is, and so I hope
we can have loving, kind,caring, challenging
conversations around growthtoward the advancement of the
gospel in the Lutheran ChurchMissouri Synod.
Any final comments?
Jack?
Speaker 3 (26:51):
I would say, yeah, I would articulate it like this
that it's three things.
Number one is that it's likeit's a ruthless acknowledgement
of what the current truth is, oran unfiltered acknowledgement
of what the truth is.
But number two, it's visioncasting for the future, seeing a
different future.
Right, that where we are rightnow doesn't have to be the way
(27:12):
that we are in the future.
We can think veryoptimistically, we can trust in
the Lord, we can start to seethe problem, you know, through
the, through a biblical lens,through a missional lens,
through an evangelical lens, andthen we can start to build
systems around, moving ustowards that future.
And I would say that's probablythe entirety of leadership that
we need to be thinking about asan entire church.
(27:34):
It has to happen at the locallevel, right, and we like to
encourage and train and equipand coach people to do that at
the local level.
But we also need to be doingthat at a national level too, at
a district level, at a circuitlevel, right.
I think all three of thosetypes of things have to happen,
where we are collaboratingwinsomely for those outcomes
Brutally honest about thecurrent reality, seeing a
(27:57):
different vision of the future,building systems and alignment
towards that future right.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
And the ULC is here.
We're working withcongregations of all different
sizes right now.
This is not a pejorative.
Small congregations can work.
I pray they do work from aplace of strength and creativity
and nimbleness, rather thanscarcity and remembering
nostalgically what once was andno longer is.
It's too short.
The days are too short for usto live with a victim mentality
(28:24):
in our small churches or with aprideful mentality in our larger
churches.
It takes all kinds of churchesto reach all kinds of people.
Jack, closing comment.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
Yeah.
So I'm just going to say this,to emphasize this being big and
small is not what's right.
So we don't judge a churchbased on the fact that it's big
or small.
What we want to do is we wantto see churches that are healthy
.
So if you're a small church, bea healthy small church.
If you're a big church, be ahealthy big church.
And that means you know again,that really means how are we
(28:55):
leading through the resourcesthat God has given us in this
time?
How are we building culture?
How are we creating a vision?
How are we, you know, buildingin this time?
How are we building culture?
How are we creating a vision?
How are we, you know, buildingthe systems that make sense for
the size of the church thatwe're at to create the
healthiest future and togalvanize people to move forward
in mission towards a healthiertomorrow?
Right, amen.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Yeah, I pray this conversation was helpful for you
.
I pray pastors are talkingabout this.
I pray pastors and churches arecollaborating, dreaming new
dreams, and I pray for leadersat every level in our synod to
make God-pleasing decisions,resolutions, overtures as we
head into the political seasonhere in the LCMS, all for the
advancement of the cause ofChrist.
(29:34):
Jesus loves his people, heloves his church and the gates
of hell will not stand againstthe advancement of his big C
church and I pray that the gatesof hell will not stand against
the advancement of of his big Cchurch and I pray that the gates
of hell uh, the advancementagainst the gates of hell
includes includes many, many,many congregations in the LCMS
United to make Jesus known.
It's a good day.
Go and make it a great day.
Good work, jack.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
God bless, guys.
You've been listening to leadtime, a podcast of the unite
leadership collective.
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(30:18):
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Thanks for listening and staytuned for next week's episode.
This is Lead Time.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Welcome to Lead Time, tim Allman, here with Jack
Kalberg.
It's a beautiful day to bealive.
Pray, the joy and love of Jesusis firing you up today for some
learning.
And today Jack and I aretalking about LCMS data as it
relates to congregational size.
The LCMS recently came out withthe data in 2024 on the sizes
(00:25):
of congregations in the LCMS,and we're going to walk through
some of the implications of thisnew data, jack.
How you doing, though, beforewe get into this, I'm doing well
, man.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
It's a beautiful time For those.
I don't know exactly when we'llbe publishing this episode, but
, tim, you're getting ready todo some time on sabbatical.
That must be exciting for youand I'm doing everything I can
to make sure I'm prepared wellfor that not having you around
for a while.
But I'm excited for you and I'malso excited with the season
(00:59):
that we're at with our church.
We've seen a lot of growth.
It's been a lot of.
It's a real joyful thing to gothrough that and after a season
maybe where we've kind of saw alittle bit of a flat line with
attendance, kind of seeing a newgrowth cycle happening, and
it's always really fun.
But it also creates a lot ofproblems and I like to call them
fun problems things likeparking and stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Yeah, there are some fun problems.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
Well.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Let's get into the conversation.
Today we have congregationalaverage worship attendance sizes
and in the LCMS and we knowthis and we've known it for a
while we're trending.
Our congregations generally arenot growing.
I think a lot of them are, andif you're a member of a church,
(01:47):
you're probably seeing thisacross the church body.
Most of them, a lot of them,are holding serve God willing
and many of them are declining.
So what was most shocking to meis this stat point I'll let you
move from here, jack is that45% of our congregations worship
(02:09):
less than 50 people, and thatmakes up 2,652 congregations in
the LCMS, and then moving up to128.2%, making up 1,634
congregations worship between 51and 100.
(02:30):
And so, as if you're watching,we're sharing screen right now
that means that, uh, 73.9percent of LCMS congregations
worship less than 100 people ona respective Sunday.
Um, that's, that's aninteresting data point, jack.
What are some of theramifications of that?
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Yeah, so the the church size that we're talking
about of zero to 50, that wouldbe generally what we would
classify as a micro church, likesometimes well, you'll hear the
term like house church ormicrosite, microlocation,
microplant.
That would be generally the sizethat we're thinking about zero
(03:08):
to 50.
And what's interesting aboutthat size of a church in
particularly is that that is atype of congregation, based on
its demographics, that wouldreally struggle to afford a
fully seasoned, full-time, whatwe call called and ordained
pastor to serve at their church.
(03:29):
When you think about what asalary and benefits would be for
one full-time person with anMDiv right, they would really
struggle to provide that fullbenefit and pay package.
And so what you would expect,especially in the context of a
pastoral shortage that we'redealing with, that you're
(03:50):
probably seeing a large numberof these churches really, really
struggle to staff.
Some of them may have pastorsthat are serving in that context
already, but if they lose themor if he retires, they're going
to have a real, real, real, realdifficult time, especially in
the context of a pastoralshortage, filling that vacancy
(04:11):
and then kind of moving beyondthat into.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Let me pause on that Before we move on.
Congregations that don't have apastor are in transition.
Their pastor is nearingretirement.
A pastor are in transition.
Their pastor is nearingretirement.
The economic realities,especially in some of our higher
cost living communities thinkSan Diego, la, new York.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Phoenix.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
I mean our housing costs have gone very high, so
that makes it all the moredifficult, increasingly
difficult with the elevated costof living for a congregation to
afford a pastor.
Yeah, Any thoughts there?
Speaker 3 (04:49):
Jack, well, yeah, and I'm thinking in terms of
national average, but you'reabsolutely correct.
Like I would say, it might beeven more challenging in Los
Angeles or San Diego if thatwere the case for the
congregation.
Even now in Gilbert, wherewe're at Tim, it's getting
pricey for housing.
Mesa is a little bit moreaffordable, you know Apache
Junction is more affordable, butdefinitely the town we're in
we're seeing some of that impactof housing making it difficult
(05:11):
to transition church workersfrom outside of this area in
I'll use myself as an example,myself as an example.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
I couldn't afford the house I live in right now.
Jack, right, you know what I'msaying.
Yeah, like our houses and youmay say, well, great for you and
equity, but I'm thinking aboutmy kids and I'm thinking about
future church workers.
You know it's like what are wedoing here?
You know like this is veryeconomically challenging,
especially if you're a smallercongregation worshiping a
hundred or less, to get someonefrom outside to come to your
(05:43):
urban or suburban community.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Yep.
And so what's happening now andthis is what I would expect is
you're going to see a lot ofsmall LCMS churches.
They may continue to decline ifthey have a sustained vacancy,
or they may shutter or they mayleave the denomination.
(06:07):
That's possible too.
I've heard some talk from somepeople that we're starting to
see some smaller churches leavethe denomination because other
church bodies have maybe moreaccessible systems to get
pastors in place, either raisingthem up locally and we're not
having a conversation aboutadvocating for changing anything
(06:28):
here.
We've made a commitment not tomake certain critiques about our
system, but there aredemographic issues that our
church body is going to have todeal with and think about the
implications about that.
So right now, I think what theLCMS is going to have to tackle
(06:49):
and this isn't a side issue,because look at the stats here
so if you look at again, 45% ofthese churches being in this
category, with 50 members orless, to dip into the next
category, this next category ofchurches I'm calling small
churches.
These are 50 to 200.
That's typically what we call asmall church.
Well, some of those would stillprobably be in the category of
(07:10):
struggling to afford a pastor,because really, about 75 in
worship is about what a churchneeds to have to be able to hire
one person full time and havesome other money to do other
stuff with that person, right,hire one person full time and
have some other money to doother stuff with that person,
right.
Otherwise, if you're anythingless than that, you're probably
(07:32):
spending like way too much ofyour budget trying to cover the
staffing piece and not havingany resources to do anything
like maintain your building ordo marketing or anything like
that.
So if you look at thosechurches too and you add that,
you're probably looking atroughly 60% of LCMS
congregations that are in thecategory of potentially
struggling to recruit externallypastors when a vacancy occurs
(07:55):
in their local context.
I'm not saying they're allvacant.
I think our numbers right nowis that roughly six to 700
churches currently have avacancy.
But what's going to happen iswhen somebody retires and we're
hearing that people are stayingway, you know, way longer than
they've expected in ministrybecause there's just nobody to
fill their role.
So this is, I would say, reallyyou know, when we think about
(08:17):
what are these numbers tellingus.
Recently, our seminarypresidents got onto, all Things
Considered and kind of saidthere's not an emergency, not an
emergency with regards topastoral staffing.
It's urgent, but not anemergency.
I would say maybe it is anemerging emergency that's
happening right now in terms ofour ability to staff pastors.
(08:40):
That's what the data is tellingme, and I think that we're
going to feel the impacts ofthat more and more over the next
decade or two.
And then what might happen?
This is kind of crazy.
What might happen even in thefuture if you project far out,
if some of these churches arejust never staffed, they may
shutter or leave our church body, and then you may have kind of
(09:00):
a self-fulfilling prophecy whereat that point in time, the
amount of pastors being producedactually does match the
churches that you have, notbecause you've grown the
pipeline, but because thesechurches don't exist anymore,
sadly.
So that's an interesting kindof thought experiment to go that
far out, right.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
No comment yeah, no comment yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
So, all that being said, we're just saying we're
really just talking aboutnumbers right now and in terms
of like there's numbers andthere's urgency, and we're just
kind of being blunt about that,without we're not advocating
that anybody do anything that'snot authorized or anything like
that.
That's not what we're saying.
But we are saying there is anurgency here on this matter.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
So only slightly more than 10% of LCMS congregations
worship more than 200 people aweek, so that means, in effect,
the LCMS is a church body ofmany, many small congregations
Anything more to add there.
How does that shape the natureof our discourse?
Speaker 3 (10:03):
Yeah, so 7.9%, just about 8% of congregations are
worshiping in the range of 200to 500.
I'm calling those medium-sizedchurches.
Generally, medium-sized isclassified as 200 to 400, but
they don't break it out here.
They go to 500.
So, roughly speaking, that'sthe number of what we call
medium-sized churches, and then1.4% worships 500 or more.
(10:28):
So that would be roughly thecutoff to be a large church.
1.4% of LCMS churches areclassified as large churches.
Now there's sizes beyond large,what we call mid-mega, that's
the 1,000 plus, and then megachurch is 2,000 plus, and we'd
have no data on that.
I imagine that number is verysmall.
(10:49):
We are now in a season rightnow where we're just approaching
the thousand, the thousand markat Christ Greenfield, with some
of the growth that we've seenrecently.
So we might be, might beclassified in that mid mega
range, but I imagine that numberhas got to be really small.
Now here's the thing.
There's something called thePareto principle, and the Pareto
principle usually kind of saysthat 20% of the activity or 20%
(11:15):
of the participation isresponsible for 80% of the
result.
I would say that probably holdstrue very much.
In this chart.
We're seeing a Pareto type ofdistribution happening, and so
what I would guess is thatroughly 80% of LCMS worshipers
are being represented by 20% ofchurches, with most of those
(11:37):
churches kind of being in that,you know, 250 plus range.
So that would represent aboutmaybe 1,100 to 1,200
congregations, representing 80%of the actual full church body
of the LCMS.
So an interesting question thatthat kind of reveals to us is
if that's true, if 80% of ourchurch body is concentrated in
(12:02):
these churches, how well of ajob are we doing with
representation at the nationallevel?
Are we representing that 80%really well in when it comes to
policymaking and sort of thefuture values and visions of the
church moving forward withmission?
So what are your thoughts, tim,on that kind of observation?
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Tim Cynova 00,00,00.
Well, I think generally ourcircuit distribution works
because it is based on theamount of members, Okay, and
congregate, so.
So you have representationthere for synod resolutions,
bylaws, et cetera.
(12:42):
And and then at the nationallevel, though, we made the
change on the vote for presidentright, when every congregation
gets one one vote past, gets onepastoral and one lay vote.
That means that that vote inparticular is definitely
weighted in balance toward ahigher voice for smaller
(13:03):
communities.
So that's kind of how it playsout at the national level.
And yeah, I mean, I just amcoming off.
That's a fascinating insight Ithink for folks kind of just
kind of running through thesenumbers, 2010, I think, was when
Synod Convention made thatchange.
That was connected to the BlueRibbon Task Force, giving
(13:24):
greater representation to everycongregation representation to
every congregation, I think.
In effect, it sounds good, butI don't know that.
We saw 15 years ago where we'dbe today in terms of the sizes
of our congregations.
Right, you have any thoughtsthere?
Speaker 3 (13:39):
Well, and to be clear here, we are not disparaging
small churches and what theybring to the table, and I think
a lot of times some of the mostinteresting innovation can
happen in the small churchcontext.
But, that being said, you maysee in a church that's dominated
by small congregations thatsome of the decision making that
(14:03):
happens are decisions thatensure that more of the body
starts to look like the smallchurches.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
So give me an example , Jack, I don't know Well.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
I guess you know we just get very, very high level
here.
We have a conversation aboutmissional versus confessional
right and generally speaking, Iwould say that the churches now
this is this is an over overover, a broad statement.
I'm just saying that right offthe bat here.
(14:36):
But I'd say the reasons whymany of these LCMS churches that
are large have gotten large insome cases is because they've
really taken a missionalattitude towards reaching the
community.
Now, that's not 100 percenttrue.
Sometimes these churches justhappen to be in Lutherpalooza in
(14:57):
terms of their demographicsright.
So some cases it's just likethis city is Lutheran.
That's why this church is sobig.
But in many other cases, likehere in Arizona, you know, if
you're a big Lutheran church,it's because you've been very
missional and very proactive inreaching the community and
showing a lot of hospitality topeople that may not have
Lutheran roots.
So what you may see is anunderrepresentation of the
(15:18):
missional perspective within ourchurch body, whereas many of
these small churches may besmall because they've not
adopted as much of a missionalperspective on things.
And they may be small becausethey've not adopted as much of a
missional perspective on thingsand they may be in declining
communities.
That's 100 percent.
So that's something to be like,fair.
(15:38):
This is like the nuance of theconversation.
Sometimes a church is in a farmarea and people are leaving
that area because it's machineryand automation and people you
know, big corporations buying upfarms and it makes sense that
that church would declinebecause the city is declining.
So that's a total fair contextto add on that.
And I, you know, to be fair,this chart doesn't tell you that
.
This chart doesn't tell youwhat percentage of that is due
(16:00):
to demographic decline versuswhat percentage of it is
declining because they've justnot been as hospitable and
missional to the community.
It's a mix, probably, right.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Yeah, it's on a church by church basis and-.
On a church by church basis.
But I'm also, like I think, alot of times I'm thinking of
Lyman Stone and his demographicdata and seeing an increase in
young people desiring liturgicalworship in churches that
prioritize that may see more ofa growth, I would say, at least
(16:31):
as long as they are hospitable,like.
This is a community that willlove and care for you and will
bring you into the riches of ourLutheran liturgy, of our
Lutheran liturgy, and I thinkthat there's a lot of potential
in this day and age, especiallywith the new Pope coming in.
A revival of sorts, I think, isin the water for something that
is ancient, something that istraditional, and so we're
(16:53):
advocates.
Do your liturgy very, very well, excellent, excellent liturgy.
Do not compromise what it meansto be a Lutheran and how we
articulate God coming to us.
Not compromise what it means tobe a Lutheran and how we
articulate God coming to us inthe divine service, to be sure,
but you can be both open toreaching more people with the
gospel, and you could say higherchurch, lutheran, liturgical,
(17:15):
etc.
So you can see both thingshappening at the same time.
I think what you're saying isit's the posture of the
congregation toward theircommunity.
Do we exist for ourselves or do.
We exist to get the gospel intoas many hearts and ears as
possible, and so, yeah, I'mpraying that there's a revival
of many of these congregationsthat are small, that start to
(17:39):
dream new dreams, reach newpeople with the gospel, while
not compromising what it meansto be St John's Lutheran Church
in rural America, wherever theyhappen to be.
We're definitely not anti-smallchurch at all, but we do see
and I think this demographic isseen true in the wider American
church, not just in the LCMS isthat larger churches generally
(18:01):
are becoming larger and smallerchurches are are becoming larger
and smaller churches aregenerally becoming smaller.
So a big question for me,looking at this, there's 15% of
our congregations worshipingbetween 100 and 200 people.
In the coming decade, whichdirection will many of those
congregations go?
Will they grow or decline?
Anything more to say?
Speaker 3 (18:19):
to that.
I think it's going to be both,and I think you're going to see
a lot more really tiny churchesand a lot more really, really,
really big churches, and bothare going to play a very
important role in reaching thenext generation with
Christianity.
I think the question is, ifthat's true, then how do we
create really good systems forboth of that Right, how do we
create and you know we're goingthrough consultation right now,
(18:42):
tim, about how we grow.
We're going through somegrowing pains right now and we
need external, we need anexternal voice on that, and we
need to learn from people thatare more seasoned operating in
bigger churches than we've beenin.
And I think, also a church bodyif that's the reality, if, let's
say, the economics is reallysmall and really big at the same
(19:03):
time how does a church body getreally, really, really, really
good at equipping and staffingthese really tiny churches?
What is their model to do that?
How do you articulate thatmodel to your body so that they
can participate fully in that,and is it a really good, viable
model to work that way, fully inthat and is it a really good,
viable model to work that way?
(19:24):
I think that's a really reallyimportant question that every
church body needs to deal with,and especially our own church
body needs to deal with that.
I don't know what that answeris right now.
I don't know what would you sayis kind of what's being
communicated as the answer tothat.
Oh no, jack.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
But what I?
Speaker 2 (19:45):
can say is I know there's a lot of district
presidents that want theirchurches not to close.
Speaker 3 (19:54):
I agree.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
And want to explore whatever it takes to keep that
gospel footprint, because whenwe close a church we lose a
gospel asset.
Man, I don't care if thedistrict or synod gets millions
of dollars Like that is awful,that is hard.
Now those resources can berepositioned to other places.
Hopefully the resources stay inthat circuit, stay in that area
so that new dreams for newministries can kind of go about.
(20:18):
But to your point, unlessthere's leaders to kind of
execute on those new things orthe revitalization work, it's
going to be hard sledding intothe future.
But I do know that fromnational, the district level, we
all agree we want to see far,far, far fewer closures of our
congregations and that shouldnecessitate conversations on how
(20:40):
we keep that, how we keep thatfrom happening.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
Anything more.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
I mean, let me I'll throw this out there If only
1.4% of our congregationsworship 500 or more a weekend,
that's a small, that's 82congregations, by the way that's
82 congregations.
That's a very smallrepresentation and we're in that
category right.
Very small representation of whowe are as a national church
(21:06):
body.
But the question is too, inthose 82 congregations I know,
probably the majority of thosehave larger staffs.
Probably a majority of thosehave Lutheran schools, and so
what percentage, if you just addmaybe the 300, and that's about
5% if you go 300 in worship ormore what percentage of
(21:28):
commissioned ministers and staffthat are fueling our Concordia
plans are a part of thosecongregations?
I would venture to guess andagain I don't have this data- A
lot more 40 to 50 percent iswhat I would say are those who
are in Concordia plans arerepresented in that smaller
group of 300 plus in worshipcongregations.
So what are your thoughts there, Jack?
Speaker 3 (21:49):
Yeah, I mean I think I talked about the Pareto
principle in terms ofcongregation size and actual
membership, but I think you'reright.
I think when you factor inschools and the fact that you
have schools that might be, youknow, disproportionately large
to their worshiping body, Ithink that that, from a staffing
perspective and the number ofpeople that are rostered, you
(22:12):
know of staffing participation,so that's something to think
about.
Like you know, how well are werepresenting staffing right,
those who are in professionalchurch work in total, when you
(22:33):
factor in teachers and schooladministrators and DCEs and
music directors and all thatkind of stuff, how well is that
represented?
Or is there a very, very highconcentration that doesn't
necessarily get therepresentation that it needs to
get?
Speaker 2 (22:47):
And when you say representation, what do you mean
?
Speaker 3 (22:50):
I think, in terms of a church, you know, like a
church, a national church body'sethos, right?
Or you know, speaking into theoverall vision and values of a
church body, right?
There are, tim, multipleconfessional Lutheran church
(23:10):
bodies in the United States.
Sometimes we act like we're theonly ones, but we're actually
an altar and pulpit fellowshipwith other Lutheran church
bodies in America that areconfessional Lutheran, right,
and they're different than theLCMS.
They've got different sets ofvalues, they've got different
polity that you know.
So we as a church body, we cometogether and we vote about the
things that make us uniquelyLCMS, and is that representation
(23:33):
happening well from our entireworkforce, right?
Is that being spoken into?
Or is that maybe is some ofthat voice being lost because of
the concentration that existsin these, in these church bodies
?
I don't, I don't know theanswer, but I think what we're
saying is like, maybe that isthe case, that there's not as
much of a voice that needs to beshared there.
(23:54):
I'm being fair, I'm being kindof speculative here because I
don't have all of the data.
We're just kind of making somerationalizations here about what
this may be looking like.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
Well, I can tell you on behalf of many commission
ministers that they feel likethey have not had a voice
throughout their entire ministryat the district or national
level.
And there have been somecreative overtures to add
representation.
Because at the national levelyou get one pastor and one lay
(24:25):
per circuit.
Right Now, I know this wouldadd, but there's some
resolutions going on meaning addresources to give voice here.
You know the National SynodConvention which is taking place
here in Phoenix in July of 26,.
It's an expensive endeavor,right, you're bringing a lot of
people into the city and so thiswould add to the expense for
(24:45):
sure.
But to get more representationyou could add one more lay vote
per circuit and then you couldadd one more commission votes.
You'd have two lay votes andthen two rostered church work.
One pastor, one commissionminister.
That seems reasonable.
It does.
I think there's some logisticsthat have to get figured out to
make that happen, but we'll seewhat the future holds.
(25:08):
In our district, jack, you and Iare going to be at our district
convention.
We're going to have theadvisory vote of the commission
ministers.
So every time, somethingnon-electoral, meaning it's not
an office, it's being a vicepresident or senate president or
district president that's beingelected, every other resolution
that comes, or overture thatgets presented to the floor.
(25:29):
We're going to see.
What do the commissionministers think about it?
And it was kind of cool threeyears ago.
The voters went, they agreedwith the advice of the
commission ministers.
There was great influence inthat voice prior to the actual
vote.
And there's a number I don'tknow how many, but there's a
number of other districts thathave some similar arrangement.
(25:51):
Could a similar arrangementalso be made at the national
level?
Maybe I think many of themwould appreciate not just having
an advisory vote but an actualvote.
But we'll see.
But that does color the natureof the national church body
conversation when the majorityof those workers are in
(26:12):
congregations that can't affordthem, frankly, because they have
schools and kind of an economicengine to make the education
thing happen.
So yeah, jack, I don't know thatthere's much else to say.
I the tone of this.
People listen to lead time andthey're like man you guys talk
about some hard like leadershipis talking about what is.
I can't.
(26:32):
I can't live in what I wouldlike it to be.
I have to live in in what is,and this is from a demographic
perspective.
Besides the congregations, thisis is what it is, and so I hope
we can have loving, kind,caring, challenging
conversations around growthtoward the advancement of the
gospel in the Lutheran ChurchMissouri Synod.
Any final comments?
Jack?
Speaker 3 (26:51):
I would say, yeah, I would articulate it like this
that it's three things.
Number one is that it's likeit's a ruthless acknowledgement
of what the current truth is, oran unfiltered acknowledgement
of what the truth is.
But number two, it's visioncasting for the future, seeing a
different future.
Right, that where we are rightnow doesn't have to be the way
(27:12):
that we are in the future.
We can think veryoptimistically, we can trust in
the Lord, we can start to seethe problem, you know, through
the, through a biblical lens,through a missional lens,
through an evangelical lens, andthen we can start to build
systems around, moving ustowards that future.
And I would say that's probablythe entirety of leadership that
we need to be thinking about asan entire church.
(27:34):
It has to happen at the locallevel, right, and we like to
encourage and train and equipand coach people to do that at
the local level.
But we also need to be doingthat at a national level too, at
a district level, at a circuitlevel, right.
I think all three of thosetypes of things have to happen,
where we are collaboratingwinsomely for those outcomes
Brutally honest about thecurrent reality, seeing a
(27:57):
different vision of the future,building systems and alignment
towards that future right.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
And the ULC is here.
We're working withcongregations of all different
sizes right now.
This is not a pejorative.
Small congregations can work.
I pray they do work from aplace of strength and creativity
and nimbleness, rather thanscarcity and remembering
nostalgically what once was andno longer is.
It's too short.
The days are too short for usto live with a victim mentality
(28:24):
in our small churches or with aprideful mentality in our larger
churches.
It takes all kinds of churchesto reach all kinds of people.
Jack, closing comment.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
Yeah.
So I'm just going to say this,to emphasize this being big and
small is not what's right.
So we don't judge a churchbased on the fact that it's big
or small.
What we want to do is we wantto see churches that are healthy
.
So if you're a small church, bea healthy small church.
If you're a big church, be ahealthy big church.
And that means you know again,that really means how are we
(28:55):
leading through the resourcesthat God has given us in this
time?
How are we building culture?
How are we creating a vision?
How are we, you know, buildingin this time?
How are we building culture?
How are we creating a vision?
How are we, you know, buildingthe systems that make sense for
the size of the church thatwe're at to create the
healthiest future and togalvanize people to move forward
in mission towards a healthiertomorrow?
Right, amen.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Yeah, I pray this conversation was helpful for you
.
I pray pastors are talkingabout this.
I pray pastors and churches arecollaborating, dreaming new
dreams, and I pray for leadersat every level in our synod to
make God-pleasing decisions,resolutions, overtures as we
head into the political seasonhere in the LCMS, all for the
advancement of the cause ofChrist.
(29:34):
Jesus loves his people, heloves his church and the gates
of hell will not stand againstthe advancement of his big C
church and I pray that the gatesof hell will not stand against
the advancement of of his big Cchurch and I pray that the gates
of hell uh, the advancementagainst the gates of hell
includes includes many, many,many congregations in the LCMS
United to make Jesus known.
It's a good day.
Go and make it a great day.
Good work, jack.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
God bless, guys.
You've been listening to leadtime, a podcast of the unite
leadership collective.
The ULC's mission is tocollaborate with the local
church to discover, develop anddeploy leaders through biblical
Lutheran doctrine and innovativemethods To partner with us in
this gospel message.
Subscribe to our channel, thengo to theuniteleadershiporg to
create your free login forexclusive material and resources
(30:18):
and then to explore ways inwhich you can sponsor an episode
.
Thanks for listening and staytuned for next week's episode.
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