March 21, 2025 • 40 mins
Tim and Jack explore why developing church leaders locally is both biblical and essential for church health and growth.
• The urgent need for leadership in the post-Christian, secular American context
• Sustainable leadership training that is robust, affordable, and accessible
• Cultural relevance – locally developed leaders understand their communities intuitively
• Biblical foundations from Exodus 18 (Jethro and Moses), Acts 6 (appointment of deacons), and Paul's instructions to Timothy and Titus
• The community impact of having leaders with deep relational connections
• Creating leadership pipelines for long-term church stability
• The challenge of current LCMS systems that limit succession planning
• How technology can help deliver robust theological education without compromising quality
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is Leap Time.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Welcome to Leap Time, tim Allman.
Here with Jack Kauberg, we pray.
The joy of Jesus.
Is your strength, is yourbuckled up, ready to learn today
with us?
How are you doing, jack?
I'm doing well.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
Tim, how about yourself?
Speaker 2 (00:14):
It's a great day.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
It's a great day hey, loving life.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
I get to watch my daughter play beach volleyball
this afternoon.
That'll be super fun oh boy,it's a meeting Monday for us,
right?
So we're going to get after it.
But here's our topic for today,something we've spoken about a
lot, but maybe we're going tolook at it with some fresh eyes.
Today we're going to give youfive reasons why churches should
embrace local leadershipdevelopment.
(00:39):
Want to kick us off with thefirst reason, jack?
Speaker 3 (00:41):
or any other opening comments Before we do just as an
introduction, and so I put someeffort into compiling this, but
I wanted to ask you a question,Tim, because of some
conversations that we've hadrecently, so I'm going to ask
you this question, Tim why doyou feel like you have the right
to develop leaders locally?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
feel like you have the right to develop leaders
locally.
It's what Jesus said to do andit's what the early church very
evidently did and for things toturn around in
post-denominational,post-christian, secular America,
churches that do this will growand more people will be in
heaven rather than hell.
I mean it becomes that centralto who I am as a pastor.
(01:33):
I have been called to equip thesaints for love and good deeds,
to empower Ephesians 4, otherpastors.
This was given to the churchand to leaders.
Like who is the church?
It's just leaders at the locallevel who are looking to raise
up other leaders based on theirrespective gifting.
It appears as if Paul's very,very clear about not one leader
(01:57):
you know standing above otherleaders, the whole hand and eye
and foot thing.
Where would we be without oneanother, all the various gifts
and parts of the body?
But we need leaders.
Leaders should lead.
I mean you get back to thegifts, like, for those who lead,
do it with zeal, right.
So I guess we're just zealouslygetting about leadership
(02:18):
development and it's not allabout pastors.
It's about raising people uplocally based on their gifting,
right, but we should beconnected to pastoral formation
more deeply than we are rightnow in the Lutheran Church
Missouri Synod, to be sure.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
Yeah, there's kind of a presupposition even in that
question about.
The presupposition is that somepeople have a right and some
people don't have a right, right, I guess.
So it's an interestingpresupposition.
But I felt inspired just bythat question to say, well,
there's reasons why it'snecessary and what are those
(02:55):
reasons?
So we're going to unpack thisfive reasons why the church
should embrace local leadershipdevelopment.
So the first one is a practicalperspective sustainable and
accessible leadership training.
Right, when leadership trainingis local, it becomes more
accessible, it becomes moreaffordable, it becomes more
(03:17):
people can participate in it.
So this is interesting.
Historically, missionaries haveaimed to establish
self-governing, self-supporting,self-propagating churches led
by indigenous leaders.
Isn't that interesting?
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Well, that's just evident.
That's the way missionarieshave to work.
There's no system that'screated and they go into a
pre-Christian culture and theyhave to take responsibility for
doing the mission.
I mean, it seems so duh, we'rejust wrestling with.
Well, we've already done this,right, we've done it, and we do
different things in the Americancontext than obviously we do in
(03:55):
the missionary front.
I don't think leaders and I'mgoing to be general here I don't
think leaders who are in thetower in the institutions,
understand at a core, deep levelthe state of emergency that
exists in the local church forpeople not knowing and following
(04:16):
meeting Jesus in our localchurches.
The percentages have declinedBecause and here's my rationale
because if they understood theurgency, there would be no end
to the adaptive conversationstoward formation that are taking
place in the LCMS.
The reasons those conversationsare not taking a place is the
(04:36):
state of emergency from localleaders has not been made
evident to those respective andagain, this is not villainizing
one person or one institution atall, but corporately, in the
system of the LCMS we're not.
We're not sensing the urgencythat the missionary zeal for the
self-governing, self-supporting, self-propagating, we got to do
(04:57):
whatever it takes to get thegospel into the ears of an
unreached people group.
Right, that's the way amissionary has to.
I don't know that the eyes ofour pastors I think the eyes of
a lot of our lay leaders andthis may be is this law Maybe?
Yes, I don't know that the eyesof our pastors even sense the
state of emergency, because ifwe did, then we would do
(05:19):
whatever it took to raise up,serve team members, leaders,
coaches and directors, and allthe way up to pastors, to
propagate the gospel in ourrespective areas.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
So this is interesting Local leadership
development tends to be muchmore cost-effective and
accessible.
Now, tim, I was thinking aboutthis.
Right, there is an urgency,like you said, and especially in
a context like ChristGreenfield.
We have taken on to ourselves,through the leadership of Christ
Greenfield not just you butthrough lay leadership, this
(05:49):
desire, this big, bigevangelical desire to do a lot
of campuses and be involved instarting a lot of ministries.
We've talked about our 20 and20 vision 20 campuses in 20
years, that requires a whole lotof leaders, a whole lot of
pastors.
That requires a whole lot ofleaders, a whole lot of pastors,
(06:09):
and it requires us to startthinking on scale that goes
beyond what I would say ourcurrent educational system can
just feed us.
Right, and I'm thinking through,like what Walther must have
felt like in the early formationof the LCMS they're being fed
pastors from Germany and he'slike no, we got to do this.
This is not going to sustain us.
This is just not going tosustain what we're doing.
(06:30):
We need to do this ourselves.
So he believed, you know, thatthe local church body had the
authority to set up its ownseminaries and train its own
people, and they did it becauseit was urgent right and so he
wanted it to be robust.
When we think about, in ourcontext, what we want for
pastoral formation, we wantrobust.
(06:52):
So I would say that we'redefining success through three
terms right now robust,affordable, accessible.
If we have a pastoral formationthat is robust, accessible and
affordable, then we can achieveour missional goals.
Right now, tim, we are winningat robust and we are struggling
(07:16):
mightily with accessible andaffordable.
Would you agree?
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Yep, oh yeah, or credit-based that you're
evidently going to compromise onrobust, rigorous Lutheran
formation and I can tell you Ihave had so many conversations
when people enter into whetherit's the Luther House of Studies
or as students are starting toenter into the Center for
Missional Pastoral Leadership,this is going to press you.
(08:01):
There will be stress and, jack,you've been in the Reformation
class in Luther House you willlook at it and say, wow, this is
hard.
Like to think that you can'thave an online experience.
That presses the students isyeah, it's just not true.
It's just not true.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
So, yes, we need to work at accessible and
affordable though.
You're in community and we'realso in mentorship communities
locally, we're also workingpractically to try and apply the
things that we're learning in aday-to-day basis, and we're
still in community with peoplethat are teaching.
So all of these things are truebecause of technology.
It just brings the cost waydown, way down, right.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
And accessibility.
So we're not sacrificing rigor.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
We're not sacrificing robustness, but we are
embracing models that arecreating cost effectiveness and
accessibility.
Yep.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
All right.
So that's the practical.
We need more sustainable andaccessible leadership training.
Let's move into the second onestrategic perspective.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
Yeah, cultural relevance and effectiveness.
Locally developed leaderspossess an intuitive
understanding of the culture,social and economic contexts of
their community, making themespecially effective in ministry
.
In that wild Cultural relevance, tim, this is crazy.
So I've lived.
(09:21):
Well, I was born in Norway, soI've lived in Norway.
I used to go there in thesummer times.
I've lived in Connecticut as ayoung kid In the army I lived in
we called it the Tuckasee area,kentucky, tennessee border area
.
Visited all over the country,been up to the Midwest right,
(09:43):
lived in California, lived inWest Phoenix and I've lived in
the East Valley of Phoenix.
Would you believe that theculture in every single one of
those locations is reallydifferent and like there's
different terms for things,different accents, different
presuppositions about the typesof lives people are living?
I've lived most of my life inArizona.
(10:04):
I've lived most of my life inArizona, I've lived in West
Phoenix and I live in the EastValley.
Now, right, can you believethat West Phoenix is radically
different than Gilbert?
Isn't that wild?
Yeah, it's 35 minute drive fromhere.
It is a radically differentplace than where we are here at
Chris Greenfield.
It's a different context In thearea that I grew up.
I want to say speculative,speaking just from what I
(10:28):
observed, that there's probablya majority of people there that
are Spanish speakers.
That's not what Gilbert lookslike, not even remotely close
like that.
It is a different place, just35 minutes away.
So we sometimes think that youknow, hey, having a national
program is going to equip you toserve anywhere in the nation.
Well, the reality is, thenation is extremely diverse,
(10:49):
extremely diverse.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
There's radical differences in culture.
Yeah, so we have nativeArizona's unique state because
we have a lot of reservationsstill today with indigenous
people groups, right, this lady,oh my gosh, I got to tell you a
story.
I've not told this story.
I was at my daughter's.
I mentioned volleyball, so Iwas at a beach volleyball
(11:13):
tournament on Friday last week.
Okay, and this lady comes up tome.
She's from a tribe in NortheastArizona and she walks up and
she goes.
Man, there are a lot of whitewomen around here and I was like
, yeah, yeah, there are, shegoes.
(11:34):
If any white women want to picka fight with me, man, I'm ready
to go.
Like this lady has a lot ofissues.
My wife and a few of her friendsare like overhearing it.
I'm just having this kind ofsweet conversation with this.
And it actually led toward afew of her friends are like over
here overhearing it.
I'm just having this kind ofsweet conversation with this.
And it actually led toward alot of her pain in her community
, pain over you know theAmerican story, if you will, out
here in the West.
(11:55):
And it ended pretty well.
I gave her she may, she maycome to church and and then she
cause, I gave, I told her whereI'm a pastor and things that.
But I'm afraid she's going tocome and say and then she cause
I gave, I told her where I'm apastor and things that, but I'm
afraid she's going to come andsay there's a lot of white
people, there's a lot of whitepeople.
I don't know, I don't know whatyou want me to do.
It's a, it's a.
Yeah, it's a white Europeancommunity.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
Do we want to go to places that are more?
Speaker 2 (12:17):
diversity.
Yeah, yeah, for sure we want tobe, we want to represent our
community in all of our worshipcontexts.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
Now I'm not saying it's impossible to go around and
assimilate into the community.
It's totally possible to dothat.
But let's just be clear.
A pastor raised in an innercity neighborhood will
intuitively grasp the challengesof gang violence and poverty in
an area.
He'll be able to tailor the waythat he communicates to people
the types of programs that theyhave to be able to tailor the
(12:46):
way that he communicates topeople the types of programs
that they have to be able torespond more effectively than
somebody who's an outsider.
That is just how it is, and socan we be thinking strategically
about developing people locallyto serve locally, because they
understand the culture, they'rea part of the culture, they know
how to communicate effectively.
They understand the ways thatthe community is hurting, which
(13:07):
is different in West Phoenixthan it is in Gilbert.
People are hurting in bothlocations, tim.
There's hurt, sin felt needs,outward sin, inward sin.
That's happening in bothlocations but it looks different
.
There's differentpresuppositions, there's
different language being used,there's different anxieties that
people go to sleep with, right,that are being addressed.
(13:27):
It's culturally, contextuallydifferent.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
And we love our seminaries and they have a
unique cultural context.
Yes, you are formed in acertain way at the seminary,
which will be and that's not badwhich will be different from
the context that you findyourself as you're sent out as a
pastor.
(13:52):
You're going to have to adaptto another context, another
culture.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
So the advantage of the local leadership development
is they don't have to gothrough the same learning curve
to adapt to the culture.
They're a product of theculture, they know it.
They're trying to bring thatgospel into that culture.
They're not trying to build thesame type of credibility that
locally developed leaders have.
So that's a strategic reason,practical and strategic.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
So let's hit the next one, tim.
Number three theologicalperspective a biblical
foundation for raising localleaders.
I think this is the mostcompelling, jack.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
So embracing local leadership development is not
only practical and strategic,but it's also deeply rooted in
scripture.
So one early example from theOld Testament that we talk about
the need for leadershipdevelopment the story of Exodus
18.
What happens in Exodus 18, Tim,Remind people what happens in
(14:48):
that story.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Moses and Jethro.
What you're doing, man, is notgood.
You're working.
You're going to burn yourselfout.
You need a father-in-law tocome alongside you and let you
know.
You need to get strategic,based on the gifts, the
capabilities, the capacities ofthe people around you to share
the work.
Yes, Thank you.
Moses goes along with it.
(15:12):
Moses could have said Jackright, nah, thank you very much.
I'm the guy here.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
You know, I'm the man God called me.
He kind of hinted at thatinitially.
That's like the only solutionthat he had.
Jethro broadened his thinkingon that right, yeah, wise
counsel.
Well, so he created aleadership structure people over
tens and fifties and hundreds,you know thousands.
So it worked and it said whatwas the result?
(15:38):
The result was all of thesedecisions got delegated down and
all the important ones, peoplewere funneled up to Moses and he
was able to make decisions ononly the most important things.
But smaller things were decidedday in and day out at different
levels of leadership.
Why can't the local church dothat?
It is Tim biblical.
It is biblical to raise upleaders in the church to handle
(15:59):
this type of stuff, to be undersupervision of somebody who's
pastoring the church.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Amen.
Let's get to the early church.
Where do we look to in theearly church?
Speaker 3 (16:07):
The early church.
A really good example Actschapter 6, the formation of the
deacons.
Well, first we can look atJesus.
Right, jesus chose 12 and hedeveloped them locally, in
context, in relationship, andthen in the early church, acts,
chapter 6, the raising up of thedeacons.
So what's going on in thatstory?
(16:28):
There is dysfunction in thechurch.
What's going on in that story?
There is dysfunction in thechurch, dysfunction with a
benevolence program, theadministration of resources.
It seems to be unfair to peopleand I can only imagine Tim, I
mean trying to deal withallegations of mismanagement of
funds in a day beforespreadsheets exist.
(16:49):
That would be really difficult.
I'm trying to do this ontablets and an abacus or
whatever, trying to prove thatyou're being impartial with the
use of funds.
So what do they do?
They raise up local leaders.
They said choose amongstyourselves.
This is interesting.
The apostles didn't even choosethem.
They asked the churches, theyasked the congregations choose
among yourselves people who havewisdom and spirit.
(17:14):
And they laid hands on them andthey raised them into this
deacon role.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Isn't that?
Speaker 3 (17:21):
wild.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
It's very evident that the church needed help.
You look at managing.
You had people selling land andbringing all of these resources
and laying it at the apostles'feet and they're like I'm not an
accountant.
They're like Matthew, are yougoing to take care of all this
kind of stuff?
Because you're the tax guy,right, but the normal Peter, he
(17:45):
can barely keep his family fed.
He stinks at fishing, forgoodness sake.
Now he's going to fish for men.
We've got to.
We've got to have other peopleon our team with with gifts.
I think one of the mostcompelling though jack is, is
paul's instructions to titus toappoint elders from every uh,
for them in every church and goand appoint elders in every, in
(18:06):
every town.
I mean that that soundsludicrous.
Who would?
Who like today?
Could you imagine if a dude wasjust going around like, say, in
Arizona Say, I claim to be, I'mthe Bishop of Arizona, right,
but I'm going to go to all thesedifferent areas where there's
not an established church yet,maybe there are small.
You could think of a house tohouse, right, groups of people
(18:28):
starting to organize and I'mjust going to come in and I'll
obviously talk to leaders.
This is very practical.
How it happened?
Who's the leader around here?
Who?
Speaker 1 (18:36):
is kind of who is the Holy Spirit oh?
Speaker 2 (18:39):
who do you guys respect?
Okay, here it is, you areordained and off you go to carry
word and sacrament.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
I mean, that's literally connected.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Practically how it had to happen.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm going to check in, you know.
Yeah, that's what happened inthe early church.
It was radical, like today.
It would seem like frivolous,or just kind of wild.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
We don't want to advocate for frivolous, by the
way, oh gosh, no, yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
But you just look at the practical movement of the
gospel in the early church andyou're like whoa, this required
a lot of trust, yeah, in theHoly Spirit and in the Holy
Spirit who made people hisdwelling place.
So yeah, it's so evident.
Any other stories I mean 2Timothy 2 too entrusts to
(19:25):
faithful people who could teachothers.
So Paul to Timothy, to onesthat he's going to train, and
then those guys are going toobviously move on to training
other people.
It's so, so evident.
I guess the reason I like howdo we not learn this?
Stuff Like this is reallyreally powerful for starting a
missional movement.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
Jack, and this starts to rethink what you know.
What is the role of pastoring?
What is the role of staff?
Absolutely, word in sacramentis totally there, thousand
percent on board with that.
But there's also what we hearabout in Ephesians 4.
Christ gave the pastors and theteachers to the church to equip
the saints for the work ofministry, for building up the
(20:02):
body of Christ.
So everything, theologicallyspeaking, everything that's
needed to do ministry is in thehouse of the Lord, locally, at
the local church.
The people are the nextgeneration of leaders.
We have to think that, likethey're not evangelizing now but
they will be evangelizing,they're not preaching now but
they will be preaching, this isthe development role that the
(20:22):
pastor needs to come in and havethat perspective on the church,
seeing them through the lens ofpotential.
Right, who am I going to be?
Who am I bringing on myshortlist to Disciple Weekly so
that they can share inleadership with me?
Right, who's going to be thenext generation?
Speaker 2 (20:41):
And I don't think this is that hard to do.
Maybe just throw out a modeltoday because we have technology
, jack right, yeah, well, whathappens if our seminaries and
our professors started to sayI'm going to put my best
lectures for X courses justavailable on a platform and they
(21:11):
could monetize it, whatever itis, to kind of keep the economic
system kind of going?
And then we're going to havepastors who get together you
could say pastors in a circuit,bringing potential future
pastors together to listen overtime.
This would be asynchronous.
You go listen to these lectures, You're going to read these
books, and then we're going toget together and we're going to
talk about it Hard conversationsabout how we apply it into our
(21:33):
context, like that could happentoday.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
Yeah, you know, would it?
Speaker 2 (21:37):
require some risk and some institutional potential
disruption, as people want toprotect the institution.
You know what?
Yeah, so you could.
Therefore, you could put upsome boundaries around.
Well, we're not going to havethe young men kind of do this
because we think they should goand receive formation life on
life, face to face.
But I think one of thearguments is well, face to face
(21:58):
learning is the best and I wouldsay, yeah for sure, application
, face to face learning is thebest.
But you got to bring who's goingto be applying it in their
local context.
You've got to bring activepastors who have a missional
zeal and a missional vision toreach more people.
And then, because this is whatI'm living in right now, jack,
and I'm not frustrated or angryat all, there's just a sense of
urgency.
I'm living it in our contextand it's so fun to have all
(22:22):
these learners at all differentlevels being dispersed to bring
the word to people like it's thebest, and I just want that for
more pastors.
And I would hope that oursystem, our theology, doesn't
need to change, but our systemof delivery must change for the
sake of the advancement of thegospel.
Anything more there, jack.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
No, I think we've nailed it.
So look, you can't make anargument that it's not biblical
to do that.
You might not want to do it.
You might prefer thetraditional system as it is.
That's fine, it's permissibleto do that.
You might not want to do it.
You might prefer thetraditional system as it is.
That's fine, it's permissible todo that but you can't make an
argument that it's not biblicalto be raising up leaders locally
.
It just happened way too muchin the early church and it just
(23:04):
happens way too much now inplaces where the mission is
really advancing very fastly InAfrica, in the global south.
These places have set upsystems that are depending very
heavily on raising up localleaders and equipping them
robustly, right, Inexpensivelyand accessibly.
That's the key thing thatthey're trying to do.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Yeah, amen.
All right, let's get into thefourth point community impact.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
Community impact.
Community impact so whenleaders this is about trust,
accountability and a sharedmission so when leaders are
grown locally, the relationalbonds within the church and the
community are much, muchstronger.
Isn't that interesting?
Isn't it interesting to beserved by somebody who's a son
of the church?
Isn't that wild?
I'm thinking about Adam Lambright now, who's one of our
(23:55):
worship directors.
He's a son of this church.
Isn't it a blessing to havepeople like that?
Isn't it like such a cool story?
And think about what it does topeople when they come in, go to
a worship service and they knowthat backstory, that this is a
person that was a kid in thechurch and now he's helping to
lead the church.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Sure Isn't that wild.
Well, some may say, jack, that,well, what about?
Jesus in a prophet is notwithout honor in his hometown
except in his own town.
Sometimes, exactly Sometimes,it doesn't work to stay in your
context, right, and you need tobe sent.
So I think it's not an eitheror thing.
Sometimes leaders are going tostay, sometimes they're offered
to the wider church to go right,and it's definitely a both and
thing.
But there's no denying that ifthe right fit is found for the
(24:44):
local leader, he hasexponentially more trust in that
local context than an outsideperson who may be there for
three to and this is one of thethings right, you get out of
seminary and I remember theaverage you know well, son,
you're probably going to bethere for three to five, three
to five years.
And there was this great painI'm just going to be honest,
jack great pain in coming into acontext, building relationships
(25:07):
, and not that I.
You know that coming to ChristGreenfield was was the wrong
thing.
It was the right thing.
I definitely was called, butthere was trust that was lost in
that community because wethought you'd be here, tim, for
a while and I took that really,really hard right, whereas if
someone's in, it's not like theycan't be called, but they're
(25:27):
more prone.
They're more prone to stay inthat context.
So it's both, and we need toraise up leaders locally for the
local church, and some of themare going to be sent elsewhere,
jack it is harder to disengageor behave irresponsibly when
your friends, family andneighbors are all around and
that they are part of yourformation process.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
You are accountable.
There's high accountability inthat system.
Right, there's thisaccountability.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
You don't shared sense of Adam's parents you
don't want to make exactlyAdam's parents.
Well, you don't want to makeyour grandma and many grandmas
who were around when you wereyoung angry by not listening to
them.
Well, well, moving too fast ormoving moving too slow, right.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
So these elders, these elder, elder, elder
members are actually like legitelder members that may have
formed you when you were a kidthat you're serving now.
Isn't that wild?
Speaker 2 (26:24):
They're actually your elders.
That's obviously they are.
That's obviously what happenedin the early church, right?
Speaker 3 (26:34):
So when the whole church becomes a tight-knit team
and locally developed leader ismore likely to remain there for
the long term and provide astable, healthy presence that
further deepens the trust of thelocal community.
These are just some of thecultural things that we see in
some of these case studies here.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
So some local leaders who stayed in the Book of Acts,
timothy, titus, phoebe andPriscilla and Aquila, all
leaders raised up locally, notnecessarily missionary leaders
sent, but they were formedlocally.
Yeah, anything more Jack.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
Nope, that's about it .
Speaker 2 (27:13):
Yeah, All right, point number five long-term
growth and stability, creating aleadership pipeline.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
Yeah.
So investing in localleadership development sets the
stage for long-term growth andstability for the local church.
It creates a continuouspipeline of future pastors,
teachers and ministry directorswho are already bonded to the
church's doctrine and vision.
They're being raised upinternally.
You don't need to convince themof your confessional beliefs.
(27:42):
They were raised in it and youknow what.
You don't have to teach themthe culture of the church.
Right now I would say we'redoing probably more external
hiring.
That I would want to do atChrist Greenfield, and they're
wonderful people, but there is alearning curve.
I've want to do at ChristGreenfield, and they're
(28:02):
wonderful people, but there is alearning curve.
I've got to get them.
Luckily, we're.
You know the LCMS, theconfessions are the same
everywhere, so you're not askingpeople whether they believe in
the Bible or not, you know, butthe culture is different and
we've got to get themacculturated and we have to get
them, you know, thinking thesame way in terms of leadership
development.
So there's a process to do that, Whereas when you're raising
people up, they're already partof that culture.
(28:23):
They're saying yes to thatbecause they love the culture.
So it's less work to do that.
Study on leadership developmentnoted that it is a sign of an
unhealthy church if no one inthe congregation is ready to
fill the pulpit whenever thepastor is gone.
Isn't that interesting?
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Yeah, in contrast, a healthy church intentionally
raises up in your notes here.
You said grooms.
I don't like to use the wordgrooming for a variety of
reasons but, intentionallyraises up, prepares one or
several potential successors,ensuring the transition of
leadership, do not derail theministry.
There are so many churches we'reabout ready to fall off a
proverbial cliff in the LCMS, ina lot of our medium to
(28:59):
large-sized churches, who areasking who do you know right,
who do you know context?
Rather than because the systemhasn't been created necessarily
for us to raise up a generalpastor who could be a senior
(29:21):
pastor in our current system,right, the best I guess we can
do is residential seminary forfour years, or maybe it's a
residential seminary If thechurch is really strategic and
this is happening in somechurches where they're like,
okay, pastor Tom is going to beretiring in five years, we want
(29:43):
to send, we believe, this man orthis small group of people and
this is fine who are going to go, they're going to study for
three years as a pastor, butthen their vicarage is in this
congregation and we'reanticipating general roster
status.
We're anticipating thembecoming or they are a small
group of guys becoming abecoming a pastor.
(30:04):
That takes some intention notto say it doesn't, it couldn't
happen.
Maybe it's, maybe it's great,but maybe that story should just
be told actually more at theseminary, as a seminary's
partner with local churcheslooking to raise up the next gen
.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
Jack, yeah, well, and again, you know the model
requires you to send them offrather than develop them locally
.
You know, other than perhapstheir vicarage might be a part
of what they're doing.
So that's the part wheredefinitely the robustness is
there.
You're never going to hear mesay that what we're doing isn't
robust, but that there is theaccessibility and the cost.
And so a really big church youknow, if they've identified
somebody, they've got the money,they've got the resources, they
can figure it out.
But smaller churches worshiping100 people, that is a much
(30:42):
bigger challenge.
To be able to do that, apartfrom a local mentorship process,
that you could identifysomebody and develop them
locally in a way that'sinexpensive that is, tim, what
we're trying to advocate forhere at the ULC.
That is some of the change.
That is, tim, what we're tryingto advocate for here at the ULC
.
That is some of the change.
We're trying to change thesystem so that more of those
(31:02):
types of models are available tochurches, so that a smaller,
more medium-sized church wouldhave access to some of the
things that may be only limitedto really big churches right now
in terms of creating continuityof pastoral leadership.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Yeah, well, and the SMP Jack is good.
It's not great, and one of thereasons it's not great is
because the pastor can't becomea senior pastor, a general
rostered pastor.
Speaker 3 (31:26):
That would be the accessibility issue, right.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
Exactly.
Maybe the SMP needs to evolve.
And some people say, well, ifyou're going to move them full
MDiv or full general, then it'sgoing to take longer.
And I think, well, if you'regoing to move them full MDiv or
full general, then it's going totake longer.
And I think, ok, fine, yeah,have them be in a distance
learning cohort for six years orwhatever it takes.
You know, as a long vicar,right, the CMC program before
ordination took one of ourformer pastors, jake Besling,
(31:52):
right, it took him four years asa vicar.
He was a vicar after the orderof Melchizedek.
I mean, he's always been avicar and that's okay.
That's okay.
I don't think, especially rightnow with a lot of our Bible and
co-vocational potential leadersin our church, I don't think
there's a reticence towardchallenge and a longer learning
(32:14):
journey while they're in themarketplace and they eventually
they may stay in the marketplaceor maybe they're a leader who
could take on that next seasonof senior pastor leadership.
So that system does not existright now in the LCMS.
Speaker 3 (32:27):
Yeah, I mean you have .
You just have examples ofpeople working with successors,
trying to raise up people to dowhat they do.
You know Paul worked withTimothy Moses, you know.
I mean it was just like we seethese models everywhere in the
church.
So what does it look like inthe local church to do that?
Who is your successor?
(32:47):
Who's on your bench?
Right, if there's no bench,then your church is going to
have a really really difficulttransition when something
happens to you or it's time toretire.
And I tell you something yourodds of continuing to be a
healthier, healthy, fruitfulchurch increase dramatically
when you've got an internaldevelopment system, a bench of
(33:10):
people that are ready to step into do what you do.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
It's as if we believe we're not going to die.
You know like.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
I'm always in transition right, I'm an interim
.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
I'm an interim pastor here in this place.
It may be a third.
You transitions, are people onenot coming to the church
because there's power strugglesthat are taking place, who's
actually leading here in thisplace?
And two, a lot of people end upleaving churches and I'll just
(33:48):
be straight, frank here.
People end up leaving churchesand a lot of them don't stay in
Lutheran churches.
A lot of our best laid leadersdon't stay in Lutheran churches.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
Like they end up going to the non-denom.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Yeah, they end up going to the non-denom or
another kind of Lutheranconfession.
That's a tragedy.
That stinks man, like they'rethere and there are so many of
these stories in the LCMS Peoplelooking at our doctrine and
loving it, but looking at oursystems and we're struggling
(34:21):
right and a lot of our, a lot ofour best people end up leaving
our confession of faith for acounter, a counter confession.
Like if we actually believeit's the best doctrine which I
do, I subscribe to it Like whywouldn't we want to adjust some
systems to not lose some of ourbest leaders?
Uh, to another, another faithtradition?
Um, and that's, that's andthat's a bummer.
So we got in conclusion, jack,anything.
And then we got some resourcesI want to share for folks if
(34:42):
they want to go deeper in thistopic.
Speaker 3 (34:45):
So yeah.
So conclusion embracing localleadership development is a win
at multiple levels.
It's practically a win means achurch community can sustain
itself and adapt to challengeswith minimal outside dependency.
Strategically, it yieldsleaders who are culturally
attuned right, that's a big dealand therefore they're more
(35:05):
effective at ministry because ofthat cultural context.
Theologically, it aligns withthe biblical model of equipping
the saints and raising shepherdsfrom among the flock.
It also forges strongercommunity bonds through trust
and shared labor.
And it secures the church'sfuture through an ongoing supply
of prepared leaders Churchesthat prioritize developing
(35:26):
pastors, elders and ministryworkers from within their own
membership positions themselvesfor healthy growth and faithful
witness to the community.
Now, this is very important, tim, in this age when many
congregations are facingleadership shortages, especially
in the LCMS.
How many vacancies are thereright now in the LCMS?
So there's lots of shortagesand cultural disconnects.
(35:50):
Turning to leaders God hasplaced in the midst of your
local congregation is probablythe most fruitful pathway
forward.
So this is our encouragementtrain and empower local leaders
to lead.
The church not only follows abiblical mandate to do this, it
also ensures that the gospelwill continue to be proclaimed
(36:11):
in ways that people canunderstand, trust and carry on
for generations to come.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
Amen.
Well, this has been.
This has been a lot of fun.
One final comment for me.
Some may say you're, byembracing different models,
testing different models, you'redividing the church.
(36:46):
Tim, and that gosh, that is ahard word to hear, because we
take church unity very seriouslyand I would say the lack of
response to the shiftingcultural context that we find
ourself is the dividing lineright now.
We're just analyzing what isLeaders look at what is not what
they wish things were, and soif you think that actually being
(37:09):
honest with the times in whichwe live is divisive, then I'm
sorry that you have thatperspective.
Our heart is for people whodon't know Jesus and we're not
ashamed of that.
We want people to be reconciledto God by faith in His Son
Jesus, as the way, the truth andthe life, and we would like to
(37:31):
be a part of a church body thatembraces that end.
We do not exist as a localchurch for ourselves.
We exist for those who are yetto meet and follow Jesus, the
King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
So a few resources if you wantto go deeper.
A book by Rich Fraser whyTraining Leaders is Biblical you
can check that out.
Another one by Endale Ausman,developing a Leadership Training
(37:55):
Model for Churches, a BiblicalPerspective.
Another one by Carl Dalfred OurLong-Term Missionaries Obsolete
.
And then one final one by agroup called Mission One,
starting Projects Through theLocal Church.
And I'll put another, justpreemptive plug.
(38:15):
I guess is I have a brand newbook coming out, hopefully in
the next handful of months.
We're in editing right now,confessing Jesus Mission.
It will be the first of anumber of books that the Unite
Leadership Collective will becoming out with, and a lot of
these topics that we just lookedat today will be addressed in
that book.
Topics that we just looked attoday will be addressed in that.
(38:37):
In that book, jesus loves youso much and he loves when you
love those who the world saysare unlovable, the least, the
lost, the lonely, and to raiseup other people in your context,
to go to go on mission in themarketplace, in our homes and in
our marketplace, in ourneighborhoods, to make disciples
of all nations.
(38:57):
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
Wonderful work, jack.
Thanks so much.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
God bless, you've been listening to Lead Time, a
podcast of the Unite LeadershipCollective.
The ULC's mission is tocollaborate with the local
church to discover, develop anddeploy leaders through biblical
Lutheran doctrine and innovativemethods To partner with us in
this gospel message.
Subscribe to our channel, thengo to theuniteleadershiporg to
create your free login forexclusive material and resources
(39:24):
and then to explore ways inwhich you can sponsor an episode
.
Thanks for listening and staytuned for next week's episode.
This is Leap Time.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Welcome to Leap Time, tim Allman.
Here with Jack Kauberg, we pray.
The joy of Jesus.
Is your strength, is yourbuckled up, ready to learn today
with us?
How are you doing, jack?
I'm doing well.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
Tim, how about yourself?
Speaker 2 (00:14):
It's a great day.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
It's a great day hey, loving life.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
I get to watch my daughter play beach volleyball
this afternoon.
That'll be super fun oh boy,it's a meeting Monday for us,
right?
So we're going to get after it.
But here's our topic for today,something we've spoken about a
lot, but maybe we're going tolook at it with some fresh eyes.
Today we're going to give youfive reasons why churches should
embrace local leadershipdevelopment.
(00:39):
Want to kick us off with thefirst reason, jack?
Speaker 3 (00:41):
or any other opening comments Before we do just as an
introduction, and so I put someeffort into compiling this, but
I wanted to ask you a question,Tim, because of some
conversations that we've hadrecently, so I'm going to ask
you this question, Tim why doyou feel like you have the right
to develop leaders locally?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
feel like you have the right to develop leaders
locally.
It's what Jesus said to do andit's what the early church very
evidently did and for things toturn around in
post-denominational,post-christian, secular America,
churches that do this will growand more people will be in
heaven rather than hell.
I mean it becomes that centralto who I am as a pastor.
(01:33):
I have been called to equip thesaints for love and good deeds,
to empower Ephesians 4, otherpastors.
This was given to the churchand to leaders.
Like who is the church?
It's just leaders at the locallevel who are looking to raise
up other leaders based on theirrespective gifting.
It appears as if Paul's very,very clear about not one leader
(01:57):
you know standing above otherleaders, the whole hand and eye
and foot thing.
Where would we be without oneanother, all the various gifts
and parts of the body?
But we need leaders.
Leaders should lead.
I mean you get back to thegifts, like, for those who lead,
do it with zeal, right.
So I guess we're just zealouslygetting about leadership
(02:18):
development and it's not allabout pastors.
It's about raising people uplocally based on their gifting,
right, but we should beconnected to pastoral formation
more deeply than we are rightnow in the Lutheran Church
Missouri Synod, to be sure.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
Yeah, there's kind of a presupposition even in that
question about.
The presupposition is that somepeople have a right and some
people don't have a right, right, I guess.
So it's an interestingpresupposition.
But I felt inspired just bythat question to say, well,
there's reasons why it'snecessary and what are those
(02:55):
reasons?
So we're going to unpack thisfive reasons why the church
should embrace local leadershipdevelopment.
So the first one is a practicalperspective sustainable and
accessible leadership training.
Right, when leadership trainingis local, it becomes more
accessible, it becomes moreaffordable, it becomes more
(03:17):
people can participate in it.
So this is interesting.
Historically, missionaries haveaimed to establish
self-governing, self-supporting,self-propagating churches led
by indigenous leaders.
Isn't that interesting?
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Well, that's just evident.
That's the way missionarieshave to work.
There's no system that'screated and they go into a
pre-Christian culture and theyhave to take responsibility for
doing the mission.
I mean, it seems so duh, we'rejust wrestling with.
Well, we've already done this,right, we've done it, and we do
different things in the Americancontext than obviously we do in
(03:55):
the missionary front.
I don't think leaders and I'mgoing to be general here I don't
think leaders who are in thetower in the institutions,
understand at a core, deep levelthe state of emergency that
exists in the local church forpeople not knowing and following
(04:16):
meeting Jesus in our localchurches.
The percentages have declinedBecause and here's my rationale
because if they understood theurgency, there would be no end
to the adaptive conversationstoward formation that are taking
place in the LCMS.
The reasons those conversationsare not taking a place is the
(04:36):
state of emergency from localleaders has not been made
evident to those respective andagain, this is not villainizing
one person or one institution atall, but corporately, in the
system of the LCMS we're not.
We're not sensing the urgencythat the missionary zeal for the
self-governing, self-supporting, self-propagating, we got to do
(04:57):
whatever it takes to get thegospel into the ears of an
unreached people group.
Right, that's the way amissionary has to.
I don't know that the eyes ofour pastors I think the eyes of
a lot of our lay leaders andthis may be is this law Maybe?
Yes, I don't know that the eyesof our pastors even sense the
state of emergency, because ifwe did, then we would do
(05:19):
whatever it took to raise up,serve team members, leaders,
coaches and directors, and allthe way up to pastors, to
propagate the gospel in ourrespective areas.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
So this is interesting Local leadership
development tends to be muchmore cost-effective and
accessible.
Now, tim, I was thinking aboutthis.
Right, there is an urgency,like you said, and especially in
a context like ChristGreenfield.
We have taken on to ourselves,through the leadership of Christ
Greenfield not just you butthrough lay leadership, this
(05:49):
desire, this big, bigevangelical desire to do a lot
of campuses and be involved instarting a lot of ministries.
We've talked about our 20 and20 vision 20 campuses in 20
years, that requires a whole lotof leaders, a whole lot of
pastors.
That requires a whole lot ofleaders, a whole lot of pastors,
(06:09):
and it requires us to startthinking on scale that goes
beyond what I would say ourcurrent educational system can
just feed us.
Right, and I'm thinking through,like what Walther must have
felt like in the early formationof the LCMS they're being fed
pastors from Germany and he'slike no, we got to do this.
This is not going to sustain us.
This is just not going tosustain what we're doing.
(06:30):
We need to do this ourselves.
So he believed, you know, thatthe local church body had the
authority to set up its ownseminaries and train its own
people, and they did it becauseit was urgent right and so he
wanted it to be robust.
When we think about, in ourcontext, what we want for
pastoral formation, we wantrobust.
(06:52):
So I would say that we'redefining success through three
terms right now robust,affordable, accessible.
If we have a pastoral formationthat is robust, accessible and
affordable, then we can achieveour missional goals.
Right now, tim, we are winningat robust and we are struggling
(07:16):
mightily with accessible andaffordable.
Would you agree?
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Yep, oh yeah, or credit-based that you're
evidently going to compromise onrobust, rigorous Lutheran
formation and I can tell you Ihave had so many conversations
when people enter into whetherit's the Luther House of Studies
or as students are starting toenter into the Center for
Missional Pastoral Leadership,this is going to press you.
(08:01):
There will be stress and, jack,you've been in the Reformation
class in Luther House you willlook at it and say, wow, this is
hard.
Like to think that you can'thave an online experience.
That presses the students isyeah, it's just not true.
It's just not true.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
So, yes, we need to work at accessible and
affordable though.
You're in community and we'realso in mentorship communities
locally, we're also workingpractically to try and apply the
things that we're learning in aday-to-day basis, and we're
still in community with peoplethat are teaching.
So all of these things are truebecause of technology.
It just brings the cost waydown, way down, right.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
And accessibility.
So we're not sacrificing rigor.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
We're not sacrificing robustness, but we are
embracing models that arecreating cost effectiveness and
accessibility.
Yep.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
All right.
So that's the practical.
We need more sustainable andaccessible leadership training.
Let's move into the second onestrategic perspective.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
Yeah, cultural relevance and effectiveness.
Locally developed leaderspossess an intuitive
understanding of the culture,social and economic contexts of
their community, making themespecially effective in ministry
.
In that wild Cultural relevance, tim, this is crazy.
So I've lived.
(09:21):
Well, I was born in Norway, soI've lived in Norway.
I used to go there in thesummer times.
I've lived in Connecticut as ayoung kid In the army I lived in
we called it the Tuckasee area,kentucky, tennessee border area
.
Visited all over the country,been up to the Midwest right,
(09:43):
lived in California, lived inWest Phoenix and I've lived in
the East Valley of Phoenix.
Would you believe that theculture in every single one of
those locations is reallydifferent and like there's
different terms for things,different accents, different
presuppositions about the typesof lives people are living?
I've lived most of my life inArizona.
(10:04):
I've lived most of my life inArizona, I've lived in West
Phoenix and I live in the EastValley.
Now, right, can you believethat West Phoenix is radically
different than Gilbert?
Isn't that wild?
Yeah, it's 35 minute drive fromhere.
It is a radically differentplace than where we are here at
Chris Greenfield.
It's a different context In thearea that I grew up.
I want to say speculative,speaking just from what I
(10:28):
observed, that there's probablya majority of people there that
are Spanish speakers.
That's not what Gilbert lookslike, not even remotely close
like that.
It is a different place, just35 minutes away.
So we sometimes think that youknow, hey, having a national
program is going to equip you toserve anywhere in the nation.
Well, the reality is, thenation is extremely diverse,
(10:49):
extremely diverse.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
There's radical differences in culture.
Yeah, so we have nativeArizona's unique state because
we have a lot of reservationsstill today with indigenous
people groups, right, this lady,oh my gosh, I got to tell you a
story.
I've not told this story.
I was at my daughter's.
I mentioned volleyball, so Iwas at a beach volleyball
(11:13):
tournament on Friday last week.
Okay, and this lady comes up tome.
She's from a tribe in NortheastArizona and she walks up and
she goes.
Man, there are a lot of whitewomen around here and I was like
, yeah, yeah, there are, shegoes.
(11:34):
If any white women want to picka fight with me, man, I'm ready
to go.
Like this lady has a lot ofissues.
My wife and a few of her friendsare like overhearing it.
I'm just having this kind ofsweet conversation with this.
And it actually led toward afew of her friends are like over
here overhearing it.
I'm just having this kind ofsweet conversation with this.
And it actually led toward alot of her pain in her community
, pain over you know theAmerican story, if you will, out
here in the West.
(11:55):
And it ended pretty well.
I gave her she may, she maycome to church and and then she
cause, I gave, I told her whereI'm a pastor and things that.
But I'm afraid she's going tocome and say and then she cause
I gave, I told her where I'm apastor and things that, but I'm
afraid she's going to come andsay there's a lot of white
people, there's a lot of whitepeople.
I don't know, I don't know whatyou want me to do.
It's a, it's a.
Yeah, it's a white Europeancommunity.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
Do we want to go to places that are more?
Speaker 2 (12:17):
diversity.
Yeah, yeah, for sure we want tobe, we want to represent our
community in all of our worshipcontexts.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
Now I'm not saying it's impossible to go around and
assimilate into the community.
It's totally possible to dothat.
But let's just be clear.
A pastor raised in an innercity neighborhood will
intuitively grasp the challengesof gang violence and poverty in
an area.
He'll be able to tailor the waythat he communicates to people
the types of programs that theyhave to be able to tailor the
(12:46):
way that he communicates topeople the types of programs
that they have to be able torespond more effectively than
somebody who's an outsider.
That is just how it is, and socan we be thinking strategically
about developing people locallyto serve locally, because they
understand the culture, they'rea part of the culture, they know
how to communicate effectively.
They understand the ways thatthe community is hurting, which
(13:07):
is different in West Phoenixthan it is in Gilbert.
People are hurting in bothlocations, tim.
There's hurt, sin felt needs,outward sin, inward sin.
That's happening in bothlocations but it looks different
.
There's differentpresuppositions, there's
different language being used,there's different anxieties that
people go to sleep with, right,that are being addressed.
(13:27):
It's culturally, contextuallydifferent.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
And we love our seminaries and they have a
unique cultural context.
Yes, you are formed in acertain way at the seminary,
which will be and that's not badwhich will be different from
the context that you findyourself as you're sent out as a
pastor.
(13:52):
You're going to have to adaptto another context, another
culture.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
So the advantage of the local leadership development
is they don't have to gothrough the same learning curve
to adapt to the culture.
They're a product of theculture, they know it.
They're trying to bring thatgospel into that culture.
They're not trying to build thesame type of credibility that
locally developed leaders have.
So that's a strategic reason,practical and strategic.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
So let's hit the next one, tim.
Number three theologicalperspective a biblical
foundation for raising localleaders.
I think this is the mostcompelling, jack.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
So embracing local leadership development is not
only practical and strategic,but it's also deeply rooted in
scripture.
So one early example from theOld Testament that we talk about
the need for leadershipdevelopment the story of Exodus
18.
What happens in Exodus 18, Tim,Remind people what happens in
(14:48):
that story.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Moses and Jethro.
What you're doing, man, is notgood.
You're working.
You're going to burn yourselfout.
You need a father-in-law tocome alongside you and let you
know.
You need to get strategic,based on the gifts, the
capabilities, the capacities ofthe people around you to share
the work.
Yes, Thank you.
Moses goes along with it.
(15:12):
Moses could have said Jackright, nah, thank you very much.
I'm the guy here.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
You know, I'm the man God called me.
He kind of hinted at thatinitially.
That's like the only solutionthat he had.
Jethro broadened his thinkingon that right, yeah, wise
counsel.
Well, so he created aleadership structure people over
tens and fifties and hundreds,you know thousands.
So it worked and it said whatwas the result?
(15:38):
The result was all of thesedecisions got delegated down and
all the important ones, peoplewere funneled up to Moses and he
was able to make decisions ononly the most important things.
But smaller things were decidedday in and day out at different
levels of leadership.
Why can't the local church dothat?
It is Tim biblical.
It is biblical to raise upleaders in the church to handle
(15:59):
this type of stuff, to be undersupervision of somebody who's
pastoring the church.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Amen.
Let's get to the early church.
Where do we look to in theearly church?
Speaker 3 (16:07):
The early church.
A really good example Actschapter 6, the formation of the
deacons.
Well, first we can look atJesus.
Right, jesus chose 12 and hedeveloped them locally, in
context, in relationship, andthen in the early church, acts,
chapter 6, the raising up of thedeacons.
So what's going on in thatstory?
(16:28):
There is dysfunction in thechurch.
What's going on in that story?
There is dysfunction in thechurch, dysfunction with a
benevolence program, theadministration of resources.
It seems to be unfair to peopleand I can only imagine Tim, I
mean trying to deal withallegations of mismanagement of
funds in a day beforespreadsheets exist.
(16:49):
That would be really difficult.
I'm trying to do this ontablets and an abacus or
whatever, trying to prove thatyou're being impartial with the
use of funds.
So what do they do?
They raise up local leaders.
They said choose amongstyourselves.
This is interesting.
The apostles didn't even choosethem.
They asked the churches, theyasked the congregations choose
among yourselves people who havewisdom and spirit.
(17:14):
And they laid hands on them andthey raised them into this
deacon role.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Isn't that?
Speaker 3 (17:21):
wild.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
It's very evident that the church needed help.
You look at managing.
You had people selling land andbringing all of these resources
and laying it at the apostles'feet and they're like I'm not an
accountant.
They're like Matthew, are yougoing to take care of all this
kind of stuff?
Because you're the tax guy,right, but the normal Peter, he
(17:45):
can barely keep his family fed.
He stinks at fishing, forgoodness sake.
Now he's going to fish for men.
We've got to.
We've got to have other peopleon our team with with gifts.
I think one of the mostcompelling though jack is, is
paul's instructions to titus toappoint elders from every uh,
for them in every church and goand appoint elders in every, in
(18:06):
every town.
I mean that that soundsludicrous.
Who would?
Who like today?
Could you imagine if a dude wasjust going around like, say, in
Arizona Say, I claim to be, I'mthe Bishop of Arizona, right,
but I'm going to go to all thesedifferent areas where there's
not an established church yet,maybe there are small.
You could think of a house tohouse, right, groups of people
(18:28):
starting to organize and I'mjust going to come in and I'll
obviously talk to leaders.
This is very practical.
How it happened?
Who's the leader around here?
Who?
Speaker 1 (18:36):
is kind of who is the Holy Spirit oh?
Speaker 2 (18:39):
who do you guys respect?
Okay, here it is, you areordained and off you go to carry
word and sacrament.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
I mean, that's literally connected.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Practically how it had to happen.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm going to check in, you know.
Yeah, that's what happened inthe early church.
It was radical, like today.
It would seem like frivolous,or just kind of wild.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
We don't want to advocate for frivolous, by the
way, oh gosh, no, yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
But you just look at the practical movement of the
gospel in the early church andyou're like whoa, this required
a lot of trust, yeah, in theHoly Spirit and in the Holy
Spirit who made people hisdwelling place.
So yeah, it's so evident.
Any other stories I mean 2Timothy 2 too entrusts to
(19:25):
faithful people who could teachothers.
So Paul to Timothy, to onesthat he's going to train, and
then those guys are going toobviously move on to training
other people.
It's so, so evident.
I guess the reason I like howdo we not learn this?
Stuff Like this is reallyreally powerful for starting a
missional movement.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
Jack, and this starts to rethink what you know.
What is the role of pastoring?
What is the role of staff?
Absolutely, word in sacramentis totally there, thousand
percent on board with that.
But there's also what we hearabout in Ephesians 4.
Christ gave the pastors and theteachers to the church to equip
the saints for the work ofministry, for building up the
(20:02):
body of Christ.
So everything, theologicallyspeaking, everything that's
needed to do ministry is in thehouse of the Lord, locally, at
the local church.
The people are the nextgeneration of leaders.
We have to think that, likethey're not evangelizing now but
they will be evangelizing,they're not preaching now but
they will be preaching, this isthe development role that the
(20:22):
pastor needs to come in and havethat perspective on the church,
seeing them through the lens ofpotential.
Right, who am I going to be?
Who am I bringing on myshortlist to Disciple Weekly so
that they can share inleadership with me?
Right, who's going to be thenext generation?
Speaker 2 (20:41):
And I don't think this is that hard to do.
Maybe just throw out a modeltoday because we have technology
, jack right, yeah, well, whathappens if our seminaries and
our professors started to sayI'm going to put my best
lectures for X courses justavailable on a platform and they
(21:11):
could monetize it, whatever itis, to kind of keep the economic
system kind of going?
And then we're going to havepastors who get together you
could say pastors in a circuit,bringing potential future
pastors together to listen overtime.
This would be asynchronous.
You go listen to these lectures, You're going to read these
books, and then we're going toget together and we're going to
talk about it Hard conversationsabout how we apply it into our
(21:33):
context, like that could happentoday.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
Yeah, you know, would it?
Speaker 2 (21:37):
require some risk and some institutional potential
disruption, as people want toprotect the institution.
You know what?
Yeah, so you could.
Therefore, you could put upsome boundaries around.
Well, we're not going to havethe young men kind of do this
because we think they should goand receive formation life on
life, face to face.
But I think one of thearguments is well, face to face
(21:58):
learning is the best and I wouldsay, yeah for sure, application
, face to face learning is thebest.
But you got to bring who's goingto be applying it in their
local context.
You've got to bring activepastors who have a missional
zeal and a missional vision toreach more people.
And then, because this is whatI'm living in right now, jack,
and I'm not frustrated or angryat all, there's just a sense of
urgency.
I'm living it in our contextand it's so fun to have all
(22:22):
these learners at all differentlevels being dispersed to bring
the word to people like it's thebest, and I just want that for
more pastors.
And I would hope that oursystem, our theology, doesn't
need to change, but our systemof delivery must change for the
sake of the advancement of thegospel.
Anything more there, jack.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
No, I think we've nailed it.
So look, you can't make anargument that it's not biblical
to do that.
You might not want to do it.
You might prefer thetraditional system as it is.
That's fine, it's permissibleto do that.
You might not want to do it.
You might prefer thetraditional system as it is.
That's fine, it's permissible todo that but you can't make an
argument that it's not biblicalto be raising up leaders locally
.
It just happened way too muchin the early church and it just
(23:04):
happens way too much now inplaces where the mission is
really advancing very fastly InAfrica, in the global south.
These places have set upsystems that are depending very
heavily on raising up localleaders and equipping them
robustly, right, Inexpensivelyand accessibly.
That's the key thing thatthey're trying to do.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Yeah, amen.
All right, let's get into thefourth point community impact.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
Community impact.
Community impact so whenleaders this is about trust,
accountability and a sharedmission so when leaders are
grown locally, the relationalbonds within the church and the
community are much, muchstronger.
Isn't that interesting?
Isn't it interesting to beserved by somebody who's a son
of the church?
Isn't that wild?
I'm thinking about Adam Lambright now, who's one of our
(23:55):
worship directors.
He's a son of this church.
Isn't it a blessing to havepeople like that?
Isn't it like such a cool story?
And think about what it does topeople when they come in, go to
a worship service and they knowthat backstory, that this is a
person that was a kid in thechurch and now he's helping to
lead the church.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Sure Isn't that wild.
Well, some may say, jack, that,well, what about?
Jesus in a prophet is notwithout honor in his hometown
except in his own town.
Sometimes, exactly Sometimes,it doesn't work to stay in your
context, right, and you need tobe sent.
So I think it's not an eitheror thing.
Sometimes leaders are going tostay, sometimes they're offered
to the wider church to go right,and it's definitely a both and
thing.
But there's no denying that ifthe right fit is found for the
(24:44):
local leader, he hasexponentially more trust in that
local context than an outsideperson who may be there for
three to and this is one of thethings right, you get out of
seminary and I remember theaverage you know well, son,
you're probably going to bethere for three to five, three
to five years.
And there was this great painI'm just going to be honest,
jack great pain in coming into acontext, building relationships
(25:07):
, and not that I.
You know that coming to ChristGreenfield was was the wrong
thing.
It was the right thing.
I definitely was called, butthere was trust that was lost in
that community because wethought you'd be here, tim, for
a while and I took that really,really hard right, whereas if
someone's in, it's not like theycan't be called, but they're
(25:27):
more prone.
They're more prone to stay inthat context.
So it's both, and we need toraise up leaders locally for the
local church, and some of themare going to be sent elsewhere,
jack it is harder to disengageor behave irresponsibly when
your friends, family andneighbors are all around and
that they are part of yourformation process.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
You are accountable.
There's high accountability inthat system.
Right, there's thisaccountability.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
You don't shared sense of Adam's parents you
don't want to make exactlyAdam's parents.
Well, you don't want to makeyour grandma and many grandmas
who were around when you wereyoung angry by not listening to
them.
Well, well, moving too fast ormoving moving too slow, right.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
So these elders, these elder, elder, elder
members are actually like legitelder members that may have
formed you when you were a kidthat you're serving now.
Isn't that wild?
Speaker 2 (26:24):
They're actually your elders.
That's obviously they are.
That's obviously what happenedin the early church, right?
Speaker 3 (26:34):
So when the whole church becomes a tight-knit team
and locally developed leader ismore likely to remain there for
the long term and provide astable, healthy presence that
further deepens the trust of thelocal community.
These are just some of thecultural things that we see in
some of these case studies here.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
So some local leaders who stayed in the Book of Acts,
timothy, titus, phoebe andPriscilla and Aquila, all
leaders raised up locally, notnecessarily missionary leaders
sent, but they were formedlocally.
Yeah, anything more Jack.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
Nope, that's about it .
Speaker 2 (27:13):
Yeah, All right, point number five long-term
growth and stability, creating aleadership pipeline.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
Yeah.
So investing in localleadership development sets the
stage for long-term growth andstability for the local church.
It creates a continuouspipeline of future pastors,
teachers and ministry directorswho are already bonded to the
church's doctrine and vision.
They're being raised upinternally.
You don't need to convince themof your confessional beliefs.
(27:42):
They were raised in it and youknow what.
You don't have to teach themthe culture of the church.
Right now I would say we'redoing probably more external
hiring.
That I would want to do atChrist Greenfield, and they're
wonderful people, but there is alearning curve.
I've want to do at ChristGreenfield, and they're
(28:02):
wonderful people, but there is alearning curve.
I've got to get them.
Luckily, we're.
You know the LCMS, theconfessions are the same
everywhere, so you're not askingpeople whether they believe in
the Bible or not, you know, butthe culture is different and
we've got to get themacculturated and we have to get
them, you know, thinking thesame way in terms of leadership
development.
So there's a process to do that, Whereas when you're raising
people up, they're already partof that culture.
(28:23):
They're saying yes to thatbecause they love the culture.
So it's less work to do that.
Study on leadership developmentnoted that it is a sign of an
unhealthy church if no one inthe congregation is ready to
fill the pulpit whenever thepastor is gone.
Isn't that interesting?
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Yeah, in contrast, a healthy church intentionally
raises up in your notes here.
You said grooms.
I don't like to use the wordgrooming for a variety of
reasons but, intentionallyraises up, prepares one or
several potential successors,ensuring the transition of
leadership, do not derail theministry.
There are so many churches we'reabout ready to fall off a
proverbial cliff in the LCMS, ina lot of our medium to
(28:59):
large-sized churches, who areasking who do you know right,
who do you know context?
Rather than because the systemhasn't been created necessarily
for us to raise up a generalpastor who could be a senior
(29:21):
pastor in our current system,right, the best I guess we can
do is residential seminary forfour years, or maybe it's a
residential seminary If thechurch is really strategic and
this is happening in somechurches where they're like,
okay, pastor Tom is going to beretiring in five years, we want
(29:43):
to send, we believe, this man orthis small group of people and
this is fine who are going to go, they're going to study for
three years as a pastor, butthen their vicarage is in this
congregation and we'reanticipating general roster
status.
We're anticipating thembecoming or they are a small
group of guys becoming abecoming a pastor.
(30:04):
That takes some intention notto say it doesn't, it couldn't
happen.
Maybe it's, maybe it's great,but maybe that story should just
be told actually more at theseminary, as a seminary's
partner with local churcheslooking to raise up the next gen
.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
Jack, yeah, well, and again, you know the model
requires you to send them offrather than develop them locally
.
You know, other than perhapstheir vicarage might be a part
of what they're doing.
So that's the part wheredefinitely the robustness is
there.
You're never going to hear mesay that what we're doing isn't
robust, but that there is theaccessibility and the cost.
And so a really big church youknow, if they've identified
somebody, they've got the money,they've got the resources, they
can figure it out.
But smaller churches worshiping100 people, that is a much
(30:42):
bigger challenge.
To be able to do that, apartfrom a local mentorship process,
that you could identifysomebody and develop them
locally in a way that'sinexpensive that is, tim, what
we're trying to advocate forhere at the ULC.
That is some of the change.
That is, tim, what we're tryingto advocate for here at the ULC
.
That is some of the change.
We're trying to change thesystem so that more of those
(31:02):
types of models are available tochurches, so that a smaller,
more medium-sized church wouldhave access to some of the
things that may be only limitedto really big churches right now
in terms of creating continuityof pastoral leadership.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Yeah, well, and the SMP Jack is good.
It's not great, and one of thereasons it's not great is
because the pastor can't becomea senior pastor, a general
rostered pastor.
Speaker 3 (31:26):
That would be the accessibility issue, right.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
Exactly.
Maybe the SMP needs to evolve.
And some people say, well, ifyou're going to move them full
MDiv or full general, then it'sgoing to take longer.
And I think, well, if you'regoing to move them full MDiv or
full general, then it's going totake longer.
And I think, ok, fine, yeah,have them be in a distance
learning cohort for six years orwhatever it takes.
You know, as a long vicar,right, the CMC program before
ordination took one of ourformer pastors, jake Besling,
(31:52):
right, it took him four years asa vicar.
He was a vicar after the orderof Melchizedek.
I mean, he's always been avicar and that's okay.
That's okay.
I don't think, especially rightnow with a lot of our Bible and
co-vocational potential leadersin our church, I don't think
there's a reticence towardchallenge and a longer learning
(32:14):
journey while they're in themarketplace and they eventually
they may stay in the marketplaceor maybe they're a leader who
could take on that next seasonof senior pastor leadership.
So that system does not existright now in the LCMS.
Speaker 3 (32:27):
Yeah, I mean you have .
You just have examples ofpeople working with successors,
trying to raise up people to dowhat they do.
You know Paul worked withTimothy Moses, you know.
I mean it was just like we seethese models everywhere in the
church.
So what does it look like inthe local church to do that?
Who is your successor?
(32:47):
Who's on your bench?
Right, if there's no bench,then your church is going to
have a really really difficulttransition when something
happens to you or it's time toretire.
And I tell you something yourodds of continuing to be a
healthier, healthy, fruitfulchurch increase dramatically
when you've got an internaldevelopment system, a bench of
(33:10):
people that are ready to step into do what you do.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
It's as if we believe we're not going to die.
You know like.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
I'm always in transition right, I'm an interim
.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
I'm an interim pastor here in this place.
It may be a third.
You transitions, are people onenot coming to the church
because there's power strugglesthat are taking place, who's
actually leading here in thisplace?
And two, a lot of people end upleaving churches and I'll just
(33:48):
be straight, frank here.
People end up leaving churchesand a lot of them don't stay in
Lutheran churches.
A lot of our best laid leadersdon't stay in Lutheran churches.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
Like they end up going to the non-denom.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Yeah, they end up going to the non-denom or
another kind of Lutheranconfession.
That's a tragedy.
That stinks man, like they'rethere and there are so many of
these stories in the LCMS Peoplelooking at our doctrine and
loving it, but looking at oursystems and we're struggling
(34:21):
right and a lot of our, a lot ofour best people end up leaving
our confession of faith for acounter, a counter confession.
Like if we actually believeit's the best doctrine which I
do, I subscribe to it Like whywouldn't we want to adjust some
systems to not lose some of ourbest leaders?
Uh, to another, another faithtradition?
Um, and that's, that's andthat's a bummer.
So we got in conclusion, jack,anything.
And then we got some resourcesI want to share for folks if
(34:42):
they want to go deeper in thistopic.
Speaker 3 (34:45):
So yeah.
So conclusion embracing localleadership development is a win
at multiple levels.
It's practically a win means achurch community can sustain
itself and adapt to challengeswith minimal outside dependency.
Strategically, it yieldsleaders who are culturally
attuned right, that's a big dealand therefore they're more
(35:05):
effective at ministry because ofthat cultural context.
Theologically, it aligns withthe biblical model of equipping
the saints and raising shepherdsfrom among the flock.
It also forges strongercommunity bonds through trust
and shared labor.
And it secures the church'sfuture through an ongoing supply
of prepared leaders Churchesthat prioritize developing
(35:26):
pastors, elders and ministryworkers from within their own
membership positions themselvesfor healthy growth and faithful
witness to the community.
Now, this is very important, tim, in this age when many
congregations are facingleadership shortages, especially
in the LCMS.
How many vacancies are thereright now in the LCMS?
So there's lots of shortagesand cultural disconnects.
(35:50):
Turning to leaders God hasplaced in the midst of your
local congregation is probablythe most fruitful pathway
forward.
So this is our encouragementtrain and empower local leaders
to lead.
The church not only follows abiblical mandate to do this, it
also ensures that the gospelwill continue to be proclaimed
(36:11):
in ways that people canunderstand, trust and carry on
for generations to come.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
Amen.
Well, this has been.
This has been a lot of fun.
One final comment for me.
Some may say you're, byembracing different models,
testing different models, you'redividing the church.
(36:46):
Tim, and that gosh, that is ahard word to hear, because we
take church unity very seriouslyand I would say the lack of
response to the shiftingcultural context that we find
ourself is the dividing lineright now.
We're just analyzing what isLeaders look at what is not what
they wish things were, and soif you think that actually being
(37:09):
honest with the times in whichwe live is divisive, then I'm
sorry that you have thatperspective.
Our heart is for people whodon't know Jesus and we're not
ashamed of that.
We want people to be reconciledto God by faith in His Son
Jesus, as the way, the truth andthe life, and we would like to
(37:31):
be a part of a church body thatembraces that end.
We do not exist as a localchurch for ourselves.
We exist for those who are yetto meet and follow Jesus, the
King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
So a few resources if you wantto go deeper.
A book by Rich Fraser whyTraining Leaders is Biblical you
can check that out.
Another one by Endale Ausman,developing a Leadership Training
(37:55):
Model for Churches, a BiblicalPerspective.
Another one by Carl Dalfred OurLong-Term Missionaries Obsolete
.
And then one final one by agroup called Mission One,
starting Projects Through theLocal Church.
And I'll put another, justpreemptive plug.
(38:15):
I guess is I have a brand newbook coming out, hopefully in
the next handful of months.
We're in editing right now,confessing Jesus Mission.
It will be the first of anumber of books that the Unite
Leadership Collective will becoming out with, and a lot of
these topics that we just lookedat today will be addressed in
that book.
Topics that we just looked attoday will be addressed in that.
(38:37):
In that book, jesus loves youso much and he loves when you
love those who the world saysare unlovable, the least, the
lost, the lonely, and to raiseup other people in your context,
to go to go on mission in themarketplace, in our homes and in
our marketplace, in ourneighborhoods, to make disciples
of all nations.
(38:57):
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
Wonderful work, jack.
Thanks so much.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
God bless, you've been listening to Lead Time, a
podcast of the Unite LeadershipCollective.
The ULC's mission is tocollaborate with the local
church to discover, develop anddeploy leaders through biblical
Lutheran doctrine and innovativemethods To partner with us in
this gospel message.
Subscribe to our channel, thengo to theuniteleadershiporg to
create your free login forexclusive material and resources
(39:24):
and then to explore ways inwhich you can sponsor an episode
.
Thanks for listening and staytuned for next week's episode.
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