May 20, 2025 • 40 mins
What if everything we thought about leadership was backward? In this thought-provoking exploration of "The Genius of Jesus," we unpack how Christ established the most effective leadership development movement in history—not through controlling hierarchies but through radical trust and empowerment.
• Jesus exemplifies genius by seeing connections others couldn't see and establishing an upside-down kingdom
• The Pharisaical tendency in leadership seeks identity in power over others rather than empowerment
• Healthy organizations foster innovation through teams rather than bureaucratic hierarchy
• Trust functions as currency—when present, it propels ministry forward; when absent, it creates resistance
• Effective leadership balances high trust with high accountability through transparency
• Decentralized decision-making requires clear values and principles that guide but don't restrict
• Leadership thrives when principles rather than rigid rules govern behavior
• Effective leaders instill thirst for mission rather than merely creating manuals and procedures
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is Lee time, so I wrote a blog called the genius
of Jesus.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Yeah and um.
Yeah, obviously Jesus is thegreatest leader of all time.
Is that about?
Through his death andresurrection and his ascension
and rain and his spiritdescending upon all of the
baptized?
Said about the greatestleadership development
multiplying movement.
The world has said about thegreatest leadership development
multiplying movement the worldhas ever known, and so obviously
(00:29):
we agree on that.
I'm just going to read a littlebit of the blog, jack, and then
I'll throw it to you to getcomments.
So Jesus is a genius.
He's God in the flesh,incarnate with us now, by and in
the spirit, in the word, hisword, through his body and blood
, through and in us, the church,his body.
The mystery is jaw-dropping.
So why was Jesus a genius, jack?
(00:50):
Well, there's many reasons.
His power and authority to healbody and soul, the curse
reversed.
His sacrificial willingness tosuspend his power through his
suffering, so much suffering.
His hanging on a Roman crossfor our sins, the sins of the
world.
His rising from the dead,awakening hope, seemingly
suspended.
His ascending to rule and reignat God's right hand.
His sending of the spirit toaccomplish his heavenly kingdom
(01:13):
expanding reign.
And finally, through us, thechurch, the baptized and taught
the baptized and taught, sent tobaptize and teach others.
All that he told us.
So that's the gospel in anutshell there.
Jack Jesus is a genius.
Any take on the story of Jesusand how it should shape us as a
church.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Well, the story of Jesus is genius.
But I wanted to think just fora minute and hang on that word
how do we define that wordgenius?
Because I agree with you onthat statement.
So when I think of what definesa genius and people may
obviously there's textbookdefinitions of that, but I'll
give you kind of my definitionis a genius is a person who sees
(01:52):
the big picture and seesconnections and draws
connections that other peoplecan't do Right, which makes them
extraordinary in that way.
Right, when we say the wordgenius, there's an extraordinary
amount of and we're're talkingabout God and man together, so
there's that extraordinary pieceof it.
But Jesus, the divine right, isseeing connections and drawing
(02:13):
connections and making certainthings happen that connect
together that we normallywouldn't like.
We wouldn't have drawn thatconnection.
The people that were followinghim, even as disciples, weren't
drawing the connections untilthey fully played out right, and
I think that's part of what Ithink about the genius of Jesus.
Right, coming in and creatingan upside down kingdom.
(02:33):
This is a type of genius, right, that's not the type of kingdom
people were expecting Jesus toestablish.
They think of a conqueror,right, they think of a king, and
Jesus's kingship is radicallydifferent than what people
expect and I think that's one ofthe things that makes Jesus a
genius is drawing thatconnection mobile and creating a
(02:54):
type of mobilization on thatright which is radically
different than what people wouldhave expected.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
You know there's in popular culture today.
What do the experts say?
Yeah, your take on.
What's the difference between agenius and an expert?
Jack, any take there.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
An expert knows sort of kind of the orthodox way to
do things inside and out right.
So if you're an expert mechanic, you know everything about how
that engine works, but thatdoesn't necessarily mean that
you're the person that's goingto come up with a new way of
designing the engine right.
So you can be an expert onsomething and also not be, in
(03:29):
theory, not be the person whodesigns or redoes or reshapes
the way that thing works in thefuture.
You just kind of know how youare intimately connected to how
it works right now, and so inmany ways the Pharisees were
types of experts right Sure Inthe law, right yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
And they created other laws that helped give
their community more definitionand differentiation from pagan
Gentiles.
Right and Jesus.
So Jesus, speaking to thePharisaical tendency, Jesus is a
genius because he could seewhat those laws were doing.
That was helpful and maybe notso helpful.
(04:09):
And what was not so helpful isthey were finding their
righteousness based on the doingof the law rather than in their
identity in the law giver, inYahweh.
And what is the law's primaryfunction?
It is to point our sin out andlead us to a savior, Jesus is
like hey, all these things,you're finding your
(04:30):
righteousness.
I'm here Like the one that'sgoing to fulfill it, is speaking
to you in your hearing.
This word has been fulfilled,and obviously they were very,
very offended, because who is aman to tell us how to do?
Well, it's the God man.
Sorry, guys, you've beentrumped by not president Trump,
but not Jesus in in the flesh.
And so the pharisaical tendencyis to find our identity in
(04:54):
power over right, and that Ifound that control over and
power over that leads toward.
You.
Do this, because this is what I, this is what I say, and and
Jesus says well, you should dowhat they say, but don't take on
the heart, because Jesus knowsthe heart right and cause.
(05:15):
Their heart is like whitewashedtombs.
Outside it looks good, butJesus says some hard words, man,
but inside and this is holy,and this is Holy Week when Jesus
said these words right In hisMatthew's commentary this is
after he's come in, in PalmSunday Inside you're like
whitewashed tombs, man, it'sdead.
(05:36):
People are inside, and so do I.
Have a pharisaical tendency.
Every leader has a pharisaicaltendency right.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
If you have to be in control of anything for sure,
then that's going to creep inright.
Yep, and that's certainly truein my role right At Christ
Greenfield, executive Director.
There's a lot of things I haveto exercise control over right.
But how do you balance that?
How do you think of that in themost healthy way?
How do you think of that as anempowering exercise rather than
merely a restricting exercise?
(06:04):
And that's the challenge Ithink that Jesus is inviting us
into as leaders in the church.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Sure, I'll go back to the blog here and we'll keep
going and then I'll pause.
It's quite astonishing when youthink about it.
God gave us his authority.
God's in control, completecontrol.
Nothing goes on apart from hiscontrol.
Yet he's invited all of us tohis leadership table.
He's decentralized hisauthority to broken and
rebellious sinners forgiven byfaith.
What strikes you there, jack?
Speaker 3 (06:29):
Yeah, it's that upside down kingdom again.
So this is wild, tim.
Like the Great Commission, allauthority has been given to me.
Now you go make disciples,baptizing them, teaching them on
his authority.
So he has the authority.
He's clear about that.
Now what does he do?
(06:50):
He gives that authority to them, and now baptism and teaching
and discipling and proclaimingall of these things are valid,
not because of who they are, butbecause of who Jesus is.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Isn't that wild.
And it's valid insofar as itpoints back to the one who has
authority, right, and the wordand the work, and then the way
of Jesus.
We got to go back to theultimate source and that's what
keeps us, because I think a lotof times in this conversation
well, how are we going to stayorthodox, right, are we going to
stay confessional?
Well, we just go back to thesource.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
What has Jesus?
Speaker 2 (07:15):
given us in his word and what is the work that he has
done?
And carry it out in thehumility of Christ.
That's all the that's all.
This is a big all.
That's what the apostle Paul issaying now, and really the
early church's first anthem inPhilippians 2, he who had every
right to take the high place,humbled himself to the point of
death, even death and a cross,and it's through this is the way
(07:35):
of the cross, it's throughdeath to life that elevation
comes, that you could say statuscomes.
It's the leader goes first interms of dying to my will, so
that the will of God, the willof Jesus to make more disciples
would be what reigns, anythingmore to say there yeah, and he
who knew no sin became sin right.
Man, that is wild.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
That is wild.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
That's a divine exchange.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
I don't know if people had that in their mind
when they thought about theMessiah.
Right, it is, so it is.
It's really radicallysubversive when we think about
it.
Right, I would use that term.
But the whole goal of Christ isjustification, redemption.
And how does he do that?
He makes it not based on youanymore and based on him right,
and it radically.
(08:20):
It frees us man.
It is radically freeing when weknow that our righteousness is
based on the righteousness ofChrist and not in ourselves.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Jesus, started the greatest movement of love
through dispersed leadershipdevelopment, all for the sake of
more and more believing inJesus.
It's not complicated, but it'sfar too rare, and unfortunately
it's rare today.
So what is our leadershiptendency in dysfunctional
businesses and even in localcongregation?
It's controlling hierarchy,setting rules enforcing
(08:49):
compliance, centralized decisionmaking, power in the hands of a
few, discouraging innovation,innovative problem solving.
It could get too messy, so juststay in your lane and exert
power over rather than powerthrough.
So this is a shout out on mypodcast, the Tim Allman podcast,
we're gonna be having theseauthors on.
Jonathan and Aaron Clark arethe children of Kim Clark.
(09:13):
This is a Harvard BusinessReview Press book leading
through activating the soul,heart and mind of leadership.
It's one of the betterleadership books that I've read
in some time because it gives abehind the scenes look at
healthy businesses, healthyorganizations.
How does the leader at the topactually function?
(09:36):
That leads toward long-termgrowth, sustainable growth, and
they do a lot of work at lookingat different businesses.
Now you can look at thesebusinesses.
You know them very well, right?
You don't need to adapt, youdon't need to change.
Everybody's always going tocome to Blockbuster Video Store
to get their videos.
(09:57):
Well, that was a poor decision.
Blockbuster it was a deathright.
There are many, many businessesstories that are shared here
and in many different books ofBlackBerry right.
There are many, many businessesstories that are shared here
and in many different books ofBlackBerry right.
Where's BlackBerry today?
Speaker 3 (10:12):
They had a nice run.
Early on.
It was the standard for PDAs.
Man Like why would you need tochange?
They set the standard right.
They do, they do.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
So there are many, many of those stories and I
think there's something for usto learn in the local church in
terms of our style.
So I'm going to have fourdifferent summary points from
the book and still invite you tocheck out the podcast once they
come on, because I'm surethey're going to go deeper.
But the first one is thisinnovation through initiative
(10:40):
distributed through teams.
So innovation comes throughteams rather than and teams of
teams is what they'll say ratherthan a bureaucratic hierarchy.
Jesus worked in anever-expanding and multiplying
teams.
These teams became networks ofleaders and churches by the
Spirit's power.
These teams discover, developand deploys leaders who built
other teams called churchesright.
(11:01):
These teams form the church,freely carrying the message of
the gospel to their communities.
Any example and that's honestlyin our context we don't do it
perfectly by any stretch, but weteach and try to live out teams
of teams being sent to doministry, to reach people with
the gospel.
Jack.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
I think, if you want to look at some practical
applications of this Tim we'vebeen a 40X church for a while
the four disciplines of this,tim, we've been a 4DX church for
a while the four disciplines ofexecution, and what we do is we
try to get our team ralliedbehind like, hey, what's one
thing that needs to change inthis season?
Right, let's call it threemonths to six months horizon.
We have a goal we need to getfrom X to Y in a period of time.
(11:42):
So we think about the leadmeasures and then we give away
those lead measures, right.
So now that's the opportunityfor the team to be creative.
What are, what are some?
And when I use the wordinnovation, to me, tim, that
word means creative problemsolving.
Right, what are some ways thatwe can curate solutions or
create solutions is going tosolve this problem?
Get to get the lead measuredone that we need to do to get
(12:04):
to the end result Right?
Speaker 2 (12:07):
So that is a very, very practical example of what
giving innovation away to teamslooks like, and we work together
on those teams to develop thelead, but we establish the lead
measures that are going to getus toward the end.
Right, and that's not oneperson in a room saying this is
(12:28):
the best.
No, there's multiple differentmeans to get us toward that end,
but let's all come together andagree on the respective end.
That's what 4DX helps us with,jack.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
And I'm going to say another thing too is the higher
that you move your ownleadership in an organization
right?
This is getting to Maxwell'slaw the lid that you, the leader
, you are creating a lid on theorganization.
The organization can onlyfunction as well as you are
functioning as a lid.
You need to move yourself uphigher as a lid as you're.
In this process, you'rebringing people on, both
(13:00):
individuals, leaders and teamsthat are geniuses in certain
areas that you're not a geniusin Tim.
When I was very early in my role, I think the thing that made me
successful is that I was kindof a jack of all trades.
I could lean into any kind oftopic and kind of have a
competent solution for something.
But as I grew as a leader, Icouldn't do that anymore.
(13:22):
I had to rely more on bringingon people who knew more about
certain areas of ministry than Ido, and initially it may seem
unsettling that there's peoplethat may be more creative and
have more expertise and can dothese things that you're not in
control of and you have to givethat control away.
But when you can do that in avery winsome way, that's really
(13:43):
what helps the organizationflourish.
Right, inviting that genius tooperate and contribute in a way
that could never do so otherwise.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Well, there's a cascading effect.
That's super fun, I guess, onif you're a control freak Right
which all of us, all of us havea tendency.
Oh, yeah, yeah yeah, for sure,we're all working it out, you
know.
But Jesus was definitely he'sin control of all things.
But the way it got exercisedwas through sinful, broken,
frail people.
It seems kind of wild, butthere are so many things that go
(14:15):
on here at Christ Greenfieldand in our family and ministries
, there's no possible.
We got into a kind debate lastweek at a staff meeting.
We can talk about it, aboutcommunication right.
About communication A littlebit.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
Go ahead Pulling the curtain back.
Somebody very rightly broughtup that there's some instances
where things are not gettingcommunicated to all staff and
maybe we'd like to know moreabout it.
Totally fair right.
But the solution brought up wasmaybe we need to do more email.
And this is where the discernerin me pops out and says there's
no way you can send enoughemails to keep everybody, to
(14:50):
have everybody know everythingthat's going on in this
organization.
That is not going to happen.
That's just not going to happenhere.
We've become too complex as anorganization and some level we
have to get comfortable knowingthat this group knows what
they're doing and this groupknows what they're doing and not
everything.
They're not going to knoweverything what every group is
going to do.
And honestly, that's kind ofmore of Tim.
(15:11):
You're in I's job to be anactivator there, to be an
integrator, to try, and you know, a lot more of my work is
working across departments tomake sure that they're pulling
in the same direction here.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Right, and that they're communicating well in
meetings Like and then they'recommunicating well in meetings.
If the whole group needs toknow about it, then just bring
it up.
We have plenty of standingweekly meetings, our Gilbert
campus meets.
There's plenty of, I think,tactical sharing that goes on
there, like we're putting onHoly Week.
I just sat in a meeting andI'll be quite honest, as it
(15:42):
relates to the minutiae detailstuff, that's where I'm trying
to work hard to stay engaged inthat, because that's not where
my mind lives.
Ask my wife.
You know I live more at the30,000 foot view, but sometimes
you got to put on that.
Hey, we got to get it done andthere are people on our team who
love the details, jack.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
I love it and I love them because they love it, I
love it and I love them becausethey love them.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
I love them Exactly For sure.
All right, let's move on.
The second point that the Clarkfamily makes is in healthy
organizations, personal agencyis given through responsible
freedom.
I'll just read a little bitJesus gave personal agency to
his disciples and it startedwith an invitation come follow
(16:25):
me.
There was no demand, it was aninvitation to adventure, I
believe, sealed with a smile anda tone signaling humility and
courage, a voice worth following.
The disciples followed in faith.
When you hear personal agency,I think in a Lutheran I don't
have any kind of agency becauseit's all passive faith right.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
A charged term there right.
Yeah, it's certainly likedecision, theology and all of
these kinds of things.
But we have vocations right,and within the realm of those
vocations we've been called tomake decisions right.
And so to a certain extent, wedo have, we have been given
certain agency and you know, Ilike this term that there's
things above us and things belowus, right and so we do have
(17:07):
agency over certain things thatwe've been given responsibility
for and that we haveaccountability to make sure that
there's good outcomes for that.
And it doesn't mean that we'retaking the place of Jesus when
we're doing that Right.
That's the key thing, yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Well, and this is two kinds of righteousness stuff
here right.
We're talking in relation to theworld and our work together
with one another, filled withthe Holy Spirit, in love for our
neighbor.
Here's a thought experimentthat the authors had.
If you have the book leadingthrough worth getting, it's on
page 140.
In terms of agency and personalfreedom, responsible freedom,
(17:42):
imagine I got back from athree-day road trip and my young
kids were dirty and he told methey had not eaten in three days
.
What would I do?
He says.
Well, you're a negligent parentif that's the case.
But what would I do?
Nonetheless, I would feed themand give them a bath.
Now think about a similarsituation in an average
organization.
You come to work and you hearabout a problem.
(18:03):
In most cases, you would not doanything about it because it is
not your problem.
Somebody else in a different,well-defined role, created it,
so you don't need to fix it.
This is the tendency.
Where they're speaking to hereis that's that department.
If I see something, I don'twanna say something.
What we found out is whenacross departments see something
(18:24):
and say something, the leaderthat's responsible for that.
They may not see it.
You're right If you're.
If you're outside looking in,you can see it more clearly
often when you're in thewhirlwind, right in the trenches
of whatever the problem is.
You either don't see it, or yousee it and you you're praying.
No one else, You're praying noone else actually sees it Right,
(18:44):
because you're going to be kindof called out.
Any take on that, jack.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Yeah, that is a balancing act because I would
say, in my own leadership, Iwould say, first of all, in our
community.
I would describe our communityas highly, highly, highly
collaborative.
So we're having conversationsall the time about how work in
one department is impacting theothers, the time about how work
(19:07):
in one department is impactingthe others.
Sometimes I have to be a littlebit protective and sometimes I
have to say, okay, maybe you'reowning too much of what's going
on in a different department andyou need to back off a little
bit and let them do their thingright.
I've seen both sides of that.
So I would say that that'smaybe a coin where there could
be a good side and a bad side tothat approach.
You could go too far with that,with feeling like you own other
(19:28):
people's work, and you couldalso, like you said, be hands
off and say, well, that's theirdepartment.
You know and I'm not going tospeak into some dysfunction that
I'm seeing, even if it, even ifit's clearly impacting people.
So I would say there's a bit ofa healthy balancing act on that
.
I think it's well, Tim, I'mgonna use this word trust.
(19:52):
I think that's really what itboils down to is does your
environment of trust invite theright kinds of conversations?
And when you're giving acriticism to, let's say, a
different department or adifferent leader, is that a
trust-filled criticism or isthat a control-filled criticism?
And depending on the tone thatyou give, that's going to
radically depend on how that'sreceived by other people.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Yeah, every time there's some.
Yeah, I started two sentencesand now I'm thinking about how I
want to respond.
So I will.
I love it when people come upto me and because I have a
higher tolerance for frankconversation and just tell me
what they think about a thing.
You've heard the the crapsandwich right To have like a
(20:31):
super.
I got to like build you up andI got to tell you all this kind
of stuff You're doing great andstuff no.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
For me, based on my personality, you don't you don't
want the two pieces of toast onthe ends.
I don't need it.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Like, exactly, Just give me the meat and we toast on
the ends, I don't need it.
Like, exactly, Just give me themeat and we're going to grow.
And there's a, there's asystems perspective to that too,
because I, in our organization,we're a, we're a healthy.
We're not perfect, but we'rehealthy, and I truly believe the
level of health is governed byhow clear and honest and
(21:05):
truth-filled, loving and kindour conversations are, and
because we have a foundation oftrust.
There's not one person on ourteam or, frankly, in our
congregation.
I'm just thinking in general.
If they come up to me and tellme something that they see that
we need to improve on, yeah, I'mgoing to agree at least with
(21:26):
some element of what they'reseeing and we're going to work
on it.
We're going to work on ittogether.
If there was a ping in me whichthere can be I could get
triggered on various things,right, Like I did again to tell
this story from last week'sstaff meeting, I said and I even
use this language I'm gettingmildly frustrated that this
conversation has gone on for aslong as it had.
(21:49):
And then it continued.
This is Christ Greenfield.
I continue another five minutes,Anyway so it doesn't mean that
you're always like perfectly inlove with everything people are
saying, but the relationshipsare strong.
You can have the difficultconversation with the person if
the relationship is hard and Ieven use that in difficult
conversations.
Do you trust me?
If so, here it is.
(22:10):
Here's what we need to work onand off we go.
Anything more to say to that,Jack?
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
I think that's.
It is like the ability to dothat, to give personal agency
and have responsible freedom incertain areas.
The currency of that is trustand trust building.
I was, I was, I was just at aconference the other day people
who do a lot of what I do,similar types of roles and this
guy talked about trust as acurrency.
(22:35):
And when he onboards people, hesays, hey, when you have trust
at your back, it's like a 20mile an hour tailwind pushing
you forward with ministry Forsure, and if you don't have
trust, then it's like a 20 milean hour headwind pushing us
forward with ministry, and ifyou don't have trust, then it's
like a 20 mile an hour headwindthat you're pushing into.
So he encourages all of hispeople when they're onboarding
to say one of your primary jobshere is to steward trust.
(22:56):
You are a steward of trust.
You need to try to guard thattrust with your life and don't
do anything that undermines thattrust.
And then what that actuallylooks like, I don't know in his
context, but to me I thinkthat's a very powerful thing.
Are we a trust buildingorganization?
And, as we're doing, trustbuilding is that giving you know
?
Is that resulting in givingpeople the appropriate amount of
(23:19):
autonomy and empowerment thatthey need within their specific
areas.
All right, so they can leaninto their specific genius?
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Yeah, that they need within their specific areas
right so they can lean intotheir specific genius.
Yeah well, the next point, thethird out of our four points
we're making, leans into trusteven more deeply.
It's in healthy organizations.
Decentralized rather thancentralized decision-making is
the norm, jesus.
Decentralized authority.
Go make disciples, you'llreceive power to feed the
forgiveness of sins from theHoly Spirit.
(23:46):
He did not set up a top-downstrategy for decision-making.
Unless you view the top as theHoly Spirit, think about how
much trust was needed in theearly church to make sure the
purity of the gospel waspreserved.
The world was big Roads, andletters rather than videos,
texts and emails helped preservethe message.
Did heresy happen?
(24:06):
Yes, did the church respond?
Yes, creeds and confessionsmaintain the truth of the gospel
from town to town so that thenations would hear and believe
in Jesus as King and Lord.
Any take on decentralizedrather than centralized
decision-making, jack.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
Yeah, I think technology is starting to
transform our ability todecentralize.
You mentioned some key phraseshere in decentralization that
there's things like confessionsand creeds which are norming our
norms, right.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Values.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
Go ahead, Dominic.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
No, those are values, right yeah those are values.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
We don't use that language much, but why?
Speaker 2 (24:45):
they did.
That is, we have to put a linein the sand and say we will not
go anywhere beyond thisconfession.
These creeds centering us inthe word of God, they were
strong values I would say valuesand truths that we are adopting
organizationally.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
right, so they're truths and they're values that
we're adopting organizationally,and by adopting that I'm
inviting others who I trust tohold me accountable to that
Right?
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Well they're, you know.
So they're not contextualvalues, right, right, they're
universal values.
Speaker 3 (25:15):
Yeah, yeah.
So where the decentralizationof decision making can happen is
where there needs to becontextualization of decisions,
where values can be different.
I'm going to tell you right now, just within our staff, that
the values of our centralbusiness central business
operating team, as it's livedout, is different than what it's
(25:36):
going to look like on ourmarketing team, which is going
to be different than what itlooks like in our worship team,
because they're dealing withdifferent types of challenges
and issues, and so they'rebuilding culture slightly
different, they're makingdecisions slightly different
across those things, and yetthere's an organizational norm
for us that we have our sixvalues in our context, right
Jesus, bible, lutheran,community, mission, leadership.
(25:59):
Those things are universal, butthey're gonna play out at
higher, at greater levels ofintensity in different
departments, based on the needsof the work that they're doing.
Right, and that is an example,I think, of decentralizing
decision making.
I think, with respect todecentralizing decisions, the
way that that's done is throughextreme clarity and extreme
(26:21):
transparency.
And so, tim, you and I havewalked through this with a
governance change in the church.
Right, we went to what peoplecall the Carver model or the
policy governance model, andwhat are the two things that
people use to describe thatmodel.
It's high trust, highaccountability, right?
High trust, high accountability.
(26:41):
So what does that mean?
Tim, you, as the senior pastor,have authority.
That's been like a tremendousamount of authority that's been
invested into you by our board,which you also have the
authority to give away, andthat's been entrusted to you in
exchange for a lot oftransparency and a lot of
accountability for the resultsthat we're delivering Right?
So our organization, our board,does not micromanage decisions
(27:06):
that are happening in the church, and I've been in governance
where that does happen, and Ican tell you that model of high
trust and high accountability isthe standard that every
ministry should be aspiring toin terms of actually getting
stuff done.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Well, let's take that in two different directions.
If trust is there, if trustoutpaces accountability, yeah,
that can be dysfunctional, verydysfunctional, that's over
that's the pastor.
The pastor is kind of doingeverything and power struggles
(27:42):
can take place on that side Ifthere's on the on the maybe the
church worker side, if the otherand this is the balance, which
is why I love our, the model ofgovernance which is rigorous, by
the way, our team works so hardon these on the monitoring
reports that we put together toprove that we're living within
the boundaries, the limitations,and we're achieving the ends
(28:04):
that the congregation and thenbeing held accountable through
our board of directors have putin place.
Like there's no, trust me, youlike me, I'm a good guy.
No, like, show me the data.
This is why I think, just toback up a little bit, this is
why we have conversations arounda variety of different data
markers as we look at thebroader LCMS and are wondering
(28:25):
what are we doing about some ofthese data markers?
Right, it's because we liveconnected to the data Behind all
the data are people of highaccountability.
Behind the data are people whoare hopefully being served well,
because we have to give a lotof surveys for how we're
treating the members, how we'retreating our staff, how we're
(28:46):
advancing then the gospel ofJesus.
And so there's no, just trustme, because there are stories
and data markers that show thatwe're winning or not losing.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
basically, you know, tim, I'm thinking about a
military story now, somethingthat was remarkable learning
about military history in WorldWar Two.
They were raising up leadersrapidly and they would make
somebody a general Right andthey had six months.
They had six months to provethat they could perform on the
battlefield or whatever rolethat they were supposed to
(29:20):
support in their division orbattalion Right, and if they
didn't perform they werereplaced.
Period, that was how it was.
So they had remarkableauthority during that period of
time, but there was anaccountability mechanism and
like if, hey, if you weren't,with all of this authority that
you've been given, there's,there's, there's responsibility
(29:41):
that needs to be achieved, andif you're not going to get it
done, then we got other peoplein the pipeline that are going
to get it done.
And I don't know that our Idon't know that that type of
accountability exists as much inministry, maybe as much as it
should.
Maybe it's healthy that we havemore grace than we do.
I don't know.
I'm just my head is spinning onthat right, because, hey, this
(30:04):
is the great commission thatwe're going after and we're
spending resources on this, andlives matter right, like soul.
Care is deeply impacted by whatwe're doing.
And do we have that strongaccountability that there should
be some markers for outreachand mission and reaching people
and, you know, bringing peopleinto the church and bringing
(30:25):
people into small groups andbringing people into
discipleship and actually seeingthat happen in exchange for the
money that's being invested inpeople who are serving in staff
roles.
But we're also going to giveyou the authority and the
freedom to do this, to beinnovative, to test things, to
try things out, right?
So I guess I'm going on alittle bit of a rant here.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
No, kudos to our board and other boards,
committees, elder groups thatare lovingly caring for
encouraging those that have beencalled into ministry in the
local context and not fallingoff on too much the side of and
(31:03):
I don't have to have accountableconversations toward reaching
people with the gospel, withthat, with that leader, please
engage in those with love andclarity and kindness, but but
please engage in thoseconversations with your and and
if, if the leader say the pastor, the, the called or commission
called and commissioned workeris healthy, they'll receive the
(31:25):
feedback and say, hey, will youhelp me Because you're a part of
the body of Christ, will youhelp me with this?
Help me grow in this gap thatyou're obviously, obviously
seeing.
And I think what you're kind ofreferring to, jack, is there
could be a tendency this is thelast thing I'm going to say on
this topic there could be atendency for some leaders,
pastors, to hide behind the callrather than invite the
(31:47):
congregation.
The church always wins, by theway.
Yes, if pastors seek to playthe power game at the local
level, guys, that's not a gameyou really want to play, because
the church, the body of Christ,the movement of Christ, that is
the ultimate and you are inservice to the advancement of
the gospel, connected to thelocal church.
The final indicator of health inorganizations and can be
(32:10):
applied in the church areprinciples with clear guidelines
rather than rules governbehavior.
This teaching is a bit morenuanced than we've been talking
around it.
In the book leading through.
They say rules tend toprescribe specific behaviors in
advance of when action is needed, leaving people with very
little room for agency.
(32:31):
In contrast, principles tend tobe less specific and more
general and universal,preserving more freedom of
action.
For example, a rule would beevery attender at our church
will receive a handshake.
A principle would be we willmake every attender feel like
they belong at church.
See the difference, jack Go offon rules and principles.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
Yeah, so I guess what I would say is that culture
right is defined by behavior,more so than our language right.
So it starts with language andit does result in an expected
type of behavior and things.
So if you'd say, what is theculture of Christ Greenfield?
Well, people are measuring ourculture based on how we behave
(33:18):
right, and so handshakes,holding hands in service during
certain times, greeting yourneighbors, having a welcoming
environment, the value is thewelcoming environment there does
need to be this is what I'mgoing to challenge a little bit
here on this there does need tobe sometimes an expectation of
like well, what does this valuelook like as a behavior right?
(33:41):
And then sometimes we canevaluate whether that behavior
is happening or not.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
And the community.
So let me piggyback on that.
Yeah, and it's not one personsaying this is the way we do it,
this is how we do it and you.
but no, no, no, it's thecommunity together saying here's
one of our behaviors that we'veturned into a ritual, right,
that we've made into a ritual ora rite.
(34:08):
And you know, it's easy to lookat the divine service as one of
those ways in which we'veagreed to function as a group of
people is one of those ways inwhich we've agreed to function
as a group of people.
I guess to back up theinvitation is hey, if you're a
leader responsible, look at allthe different behaviors.
Which of those behaviors are inalignment with and you're using
(34:28):
hospitality in alignment withwe want every person to belong
here and which behaviors are not.
And some of those behaviorshave been so ingrained and I'm
going to use, since we're onhospitality, I'm looking out at
our courtyard.
There may be pockets of peoplewho are friends, who huddled
together and very rarely open upto see the other people who
(34:49):
they don't recognize and invitethem into conversation.
Right, jack, that's a behaviorthat a leader has to help the
congregation, kind of noticeAnything more to say there?
Speaker 3 (34:59):
And I would say well, I've had a lot of conversations
about, like you know, is thisbehavior conducive with certain
values and stuff.
But what I would rather do,what I would rather do as a
leader, is I would talk aboutwhy something's such a value and
then give away right, give awaythat responsibility to a team
(35:19):
for them to help shape whatbehaviors are going to lead to
that outcome.
That would be like as anexample of raising the lid of
leadership is you know, there isgoing to be some behavior, some
rules that govern behavior toget certain things done.
That's unavoidable.
But if you're a central leaderhere, this is where we get into
(35:40):
micromanagement of stuff, right?
I think the best way I've hadthis described is actually from
a book we recently read by JDGreer.
He talked about mobilizingpeople for mission and he said
if you're going to mobilizepeople for mission, you don't
give them a handbook on how to.
Well, he uses the analogy ofseafaring.
He says if you want people tobuild ships, you don't do that
(36:03):
by giving people a manual on howto build ships.
That's not how you get peopleto build ships.
He says you have to instill inpeople a deep, deep, loving
thirst for the ocean.
They have to thirst for theocean, and then they're going to
want to learn how to build theship, right?
That's the key thing.
And so you can give peoplemanuals and stuff like that, but
in reality, there's multipleright ways to build a ship.
(36:24):
The key thing is do they thirstfor the ocean?
Right?
And I think maybe that's wherewe're getting at right now is
are you building a thirstinessfor this area of ministry, to
see that it gets done?
And if you have that deepthirstiness embedded, you don't
have to talk about rules ofbehavior.
They're going to figure it out,yep.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
Well, that's what Jesus did A love and a thirst
for the kingdom, this kingdomthat comes out of heaven, a love
and thirst for Jesus, the breadof life, and then, post
ascension and post descension ofthe Holy Spirit, to do whatever
it takes to get the gospel intothe ears and hearts of people
that they would know the lightand love of Christ.
(37:03):
It appears as if Jesus wantedjust enough structure, evidenced
by the calling and sending ofthe 12 apostles.
Their principle would be love,love for all and the gospel
heard and believed by all.
It is very evident the churchdid not immediately establish
rules for what, for instance,worship liturgy would look like.
Instead, they led withprinciples to preserve the truth
(37:24):
of the gospel.
They did not stifle personaland contextual judgment or
creativity.
This responsible freedomallowed the gospel to spread
freely and quickly.
So here are my two kind ofclosing contextual questions for
those of us who lead at alldifferent levels in the Lutheran
Church Missouri Synod which ofthese four principles display
our greatest opportunity forchange in our local churches,
(37:47):
circuits, district and throughnational leadership?
And are we leveragingultimately the genius of Jesus
by the Spirit's power?
And I pray we will, the daysare too short to do otherwise.
Any closing comments there,jack.
Speaker 3 (37:59):
No, I think this has been a fascinating chat here,
tim.
I'm looking forward to learningmore about that book and seeing
how people respond to this blogpost, and I'm curious to hear
people's thoughts about this.
What do you, what is yourperception about and this is for
the audience right now what isyour perception and what ways do
you see the genius of Jesus asa leader, or do you think we're
(38:23):
being crazy by talking aboutthis way?
Just let us know, drop us acomment, tell us we're not
afraid of having boldconversations about this.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
Oh, exactly, Exactly, and we love you.
There's no, I've been thinkingabout this too.
There is no person or group inour church body or in the world
that is an enemy and adversaryof me or us.
This is our perspective and Ithink it comes from Christ.
(38:52):
We do recognize there is anenemy who seeks to steal, kill,
destroy and divide, and he wantsto keep us from one another and
keep us from loving.
Let us spur one another ontoward love and good deeds.
He wants to keep us from lovingand spurring one another on
toward love and good deeds, andI feel like the paradigm of
leading through rather thanleading over the humble story of
(39:16):
Jesus.
It just goes so aligned.
It's funny how secular scienceand so God is always ahead,
right, and sometimes socialscience just catches up.
That's just what Jesus did.
That's how this thing calledthe Christian movement changed
the course of human history.
This is Lead Time.
Please like, subscribe, commentwherever it is you take in
these podcasts and we'll be backlater on this week with another
(39:39):
fresh episode of Lead Time.
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
Thanks so much, Jack.
God bless friends.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the
Unite Leadership Collective.
The ULC's mission is tocollaborate with the local
church to discover, develop anddeploy leaders through biblical
Lutheran doctrine and innovativemethods To partner with us in
this gospel message.
Subscribe to our channel, thengo to theuniteleadershiporg to
create your free login forexclusive material and resources
(40:07):
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.
Thanks for listening and staytuned for next week's episode.
This is Lee time, so I wrote a blog called the genius
of Jesus.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Yeah and um.
Yeah, obviously Jesus is thegreatest leader of all time.
Is that about?
Through his death andresurrection and his ascension
and rain and his spiritdescending upon all of the
baptized?
Said about the greatestleadership development
multiplying movement.
The world has said about thegreatest leadership development
multiplying movement the worldhas ever known, and so obviously
(00:29):
we agree on that.
I'm just going to read a littlebit of the blog, jack, and then
I'll throw it to you to getcomments.
So Jesus is a genius.
He's God in the flesh,incarnate with us now, by and in
the spirit, in the word, hisword, through his body and blood
, through and in us, the church,his body.
The mystery is jaw-dropping.
So why was Jesus a genius, jack?
(00:50):
Well, there's many reasons.
His power and authority to healbody and soul, the curse
reversed.
His sacrificial willingness tosuspend his power through his
suffering, so much suffering.
His hanging on a Roman crossfor our sins, the sins of the
world.
His rising from the dead,awakening hope, seemingly
suspended.
His ascending to rule and reignat God's right hand.
His sending of the spirit toaccomplish his heavenly kingdom
(01:13):
expanding reign.
And finally, through us, thechurch, the baptized and taught
the baptized and taught, sent tobaptize and teach others.
All that he told us.
So that's the gospel in anutshell there.
Jack Jesus is a genius.
Any take on the story of Jesusand how it should shape us as a
church.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Well, the story of Jesus is genius.
But I wanted to think just fora minute and hang on that word
how do we define that wordgenius?
Because I agree with you onthat statement.
So when I think of what definesa genius and people may
obviously there's textbookdefinitions of that, but I'll
give you kind of my definitionis a genius is a person who sees
(01:52):
the big picture and seesconnections and draws
connections that other peoplecan't do Right, which makes them
extraordinary in that way.
Right, when we say the wordgenius, there's an extraordinary
amount of and we're're talkingabout God and man together, so
there's that extraordinary pieceof it.
But Jesus, the divine right, isseeing connections and drawing
(02:13):
connections and making certainthings happen that connect
together that we normallywouldn't like.
We wouldn't have drawn thatconnection.
The people that were followinghim, even as disciples, weren't
drawing the connections untilthey fully played out right, and
I think that's part of what Ithink about the genius of Jesus.
Right, coming in and creatingan upside down kingdom.
(02:33):
This is a type of genius, right, that's not the type of kingdom
people were expecting Jesus toestablish.
They think of a conqueror,right, they think of a king, and
Jesus's kingship is radicallydifferent than what people
expect and I think that's one ofthe things that makes Jesus a
genius is drawing thatconnection mobile and creating a
(02:54):
type of mobilization on thatright which is radically
different than what people wouldhave expected.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
You know there's in popular culture today.
What do the experts say?
Yeah, your take on.
What's the difference between agenius and an expert?
Jack, any take there.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
An expert knows sort of kind of the orthodox way to
do things inside and out right.
So if you're an expert mechanic, you know everything about how
that engine works, but thatdoesn't necessarily mean that
you're the person that's goingto come up with a new way of
designing the engine right.
So you can be an expert onsomething and also not be, in
(03:29):
theory, not be the person whodesigns or redoes or reshapes
the way that thing works in thefuture.
You just kind of know how youare intimately connected to how
it works right now, and so inmany ways the Pharisees were
types of experts right Sure Inthe law, right yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
And they created other laws that helped give
their community more definitionand differentiation from pagan
Gentiles.
Right and Jesus.
So Jesus, speaking to thePharisaical tendency, Jesus is a
genius because he could seewhat those laws were doing.
That was helpful and maybe notso helpful.
(04:09):
And what was not so helpful isthey were finding their
righteousness based on the doingof the law rather than in their
identity in the law giver, inYahweh.
And what is the law's primaryfunction?
It is to point our sin out andlead us to a savior, Jesus is
like hey, all these things,you're finding your
(04:30):
righteousness.
I'm here Like the one that'sgoing to fulfill it, is speaking
to you in your hearing.
This word has been fulfilled,and obviously they were very,
very offended, because who is aman to tell us how to do?
Well, it's the God man.
Sorry, guys, you've beentrumped by not president Trump,
but not Jesus in in the flesh.
And so the pharisaical tendencyis to find our identity in
(04:54):
power over right, and that Ifound that control over and
power over that leads toward.
You.
Do this, because this is what I, this is what I say, and and
Jesus says well, you should dowhat they say, but don't take on
the heart, because Jesus knowsthe heart right and cause.
(05:15):
Their heart is like whitewashedtombs.
Outside it looks good, butJesus says some hard words, man,
but inside and this is holy,and this is Holy Week when Jesus
said these words right In hisMatthew's commentary this is
after he's come in, in PalmSunday Inside you're like
whitewashed tombs, man, it'sdead.
(05:36):
People are inside, and so do I.
Have a pharisaical tendency.
Every leader has a pharisaicaltendency right.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
If you have to be in control of anything for sure,
then that's going to creep inright.
Yep, and that's certainly truein my role right At Christ
Greenfield, executive Director.
There's a lot of things I haveto exercise control over right.
But how do you balance that?
How do you think of that in themost healthy way?
How do you think of that as anempowering exercise rather than
merely a restricting exercise?
(06:04):
And that's the challenge Ithink that Jesus is inviting us
into as leaders in the church.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Sure, I'll go back to the blog here and we'll keep
going and then I'll pause.
It's quite astonishing when youthink about it.
God gave us his authority.
God's in control, completecontrol.
Nothing goes on apart from hiscontrol.
Yet he's invited all of us tohis leadership table.
He's decentralized hisauthority to broken and
rebellious sinners forgiven byfaith.
What strikes you there, jack?
Speaker 3 (06:29):
Yeah, it's that upside down kingdom again.
So this is wild, tim.
Like the Great Commission, allauthority has been given to me.
Now you go make disciples,baptizing them, teaching them on
his authority.
So he has the authority.
He's clear about that.
Now what does he do?
(06:50):
He gives that authority to them, and now baptism and teaching
and discipling and proclaimingall of these things are valid,
not because of who they are, butbecause of who Jesus is.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Isn't that wild.
And it's valid insofar as itpoints back to the one who has
authority, right, and the wordand the work, and then the way
of Jesus.
We got to go back to theultimate source and that's what
keeps us, because I think a lotof times in this conversation
well, how are we going to stayorthodox, right, are we going to
stay confessional?
Well, we just go back to thesource.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
What has Jesus?
Speaker 2 (07:15):
given us in his word and what is the work that he has
done?
And carry it out in thehumility of Christ.
That's all the that's all.
This is a big all.
That's what the apostle Paul issaying now, and really the
early church's first anthem inPhilippians 2, he who had every
right to take the high place,humbled himself to the point of
death, even death and a cross,and it's through this is the way
(07:35):
of the cross, it's throughdeath to life that elevation
comes, that you could say statuscomes.
It's the leader goes first interms of dying to my will, so
that the will of God, the willof Jesus to make more disciples
would be what reigns, anythingmore to say there yeah, and he
who knew no sin became sin right.
Man, that is wild.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
That is wild.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
That's a divine exchange.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
I don't know if people had that in their mind
when they thought about theMessiah.
Right, it is, so it is.
It's really radicallysubversive when we think about
it.
Right, I would use that term.
But the whole goal of Christ isjustification, redemption.
And how does he do that?
He makes it not based on youanymore and based on him right,
and it radically.
(08:20):
It frees us man.
It is radically freeing when weknow that our righteousness is
based on the righteousness ofChrist and not in ourselves.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Jesus, started the greatest movement of love
through dispersed leadershipdevelopment, all for the sake of
more and more believing inJesus.
It's not complicated, but it'sfar too rare, and unfortunately
it's rare today.
So what is our leadershiptendency in dysfunctional
businesses and even in localcongregation?
It's controlling hierarchy,setting rules enforcing
(08:49):
compliance, centralized decisionmaking, power in the hands of a
few, discouraging innovation,innovative problem solving.
It could get too messy, so juststay in your lane and exert
power over rather than powerthrough.
So this is a shout out on mypodcast, the Tim Allman podcast,
we're gonna be having theseauthors on.
Jonathan and Aaron Clark arethe children of Kim Clark.
(09:13):
This is a Harvard BusinessReview Press book leading
through activating the soul,heart and mind of leadership.
It's one of the betterleadership books that I've read
in some time because it gives abehind the scenes look at
healthy businesses, healthyorganizations.
How does the leader at the topactually function?
(09:36):
That leads toward long-termgrowth, sustainable growth, and
they do a lot of work at lookingat different businesses.
Now you can look at thesebusinesses.
You know them very well, right?
You don't need to adapt, youdon't need to change.
Everybody's always going tocome to Blockbuster Video Store
to get their videos.
(09:57):
Well, that was a poor decision.
Blockbuster it was a deathright.
There are many, many businessesstories that are shared here
and in many different books ofBlackBerry right.
There are many, many businessesstories that are shared here
and in many different books ofBlackBerry right.
Where's BlackBerry today?
Speaker 3 (10:12):
They had a nice run.
Early on.
It was the standard for PDAs.
Man Like why would you need tochange?
They set the standard right.
They do, they do.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
So there are many, many of those stories and I
think there's something for usto learn in the local church in
terms of our style.
So I'm going to have fourdifferent summary points from
the book and still invite you tocheck out the podcast once they
come on, because I'm surethey're going to go deeper.
But the first one is thisinnovation through initiative
(10:40):
distributed through teams.
So innovation comes throughteams rather than and teams of
teams is what they'll say ratherthan a bureaucratic hierarchy.
Jesus worked in anever-expanding and multiplying
teams.
These teams became networks ofleaders and churches by the
Spirit's power.
These teams discover, developand deploys leaders who built
other teams called churchesright.
(11:01):
These teams form the church,freely carrying the message of
the gospel to their communities.
Any example and that's honestlyin our context we don't do it
perfectly by any stretch, but weteach and try to live out teams
of teams being sent to doministry, to reach people with
the gospel.
Jack.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
I think, if you want to look at some practical
applications of this Tim we'vebeen a 40X church for a while
the four disciplines of this,tim, we've been a 4DX church for
a while the four disciplines ofexecution, and what we do is we
try to get our team ralliedbehind like, hey, what's one
thing that needs to change inthis season?
Right, let's call it threemonths to six months horizon.
We have a goal we need to getfrom X to Y in a period of time.
(11:42):
So we think about the leadmeasures and then we give away
those lead measures, right.
So now that's the opportunityfor the team to be creative.
What are, what are some?
And when I use the wordinnovation, to me, tim, that
word means creative problemsolving.
Right, what are some ways thatwe can curate solutions or
create solutions is going tosolve this problem?
Get to get the lead measuredone that we need to do to get
(12:04):
to the end result Right?
Speaker 2 (12:07):
So that is a very, very practical example of what
giving innovation away to teamslooks like, and we work together
on those teams to develop thelead, but we establish the lead
measures that are going to getus toward the end.
Right, and that's not oneperson in a room saying this is
(12:28):
the best.
No, there's multiple differentmeans to get us toward that end,
but let's all come together andagree on the respective end.
That's what 4DX helps us with,jack.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
And I'm going to say another thing too is the higher
that you move your ownleadership in an organization
right?
This is getting to Maxwell'slaw the lid that you, the leader
, you are creating a lid on theorganization.
The organization can onlyfunction as well as you are
functioning as a lid.
You need to move yourself uphigher as a lid as you're.
In this process, you'rebringing people on, both
(13:00):
individuals, leaders and teamsthat are geniuses in certain
areas that you're not a geniusin Tim.
When I was very early in my role, I think the thing that made me
successful is that I was kindof a jack of all trades.
I could lean into any kind oftopic and kind of have a
competent solution for something.
But as I grew as a leader, Icouldn't do that anymore.
(13:22):
I had to rely more on bringingon people who knew more about
certain areas of ministry than Ido, and initially it may seem
unsettling that there's peoplethat may be more creative and
have more expertise and can dothese things that you're not in
control of and you have to givethat control away.
But when you can do that in avery winsome way, that's really
(13:43):
what helps the organizationflourish.
Right, inviting that genius tooperate and contribute in a way
that could never do so otherwise.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Well, there's a cascading effect.
That's super fun, I guess, onif you're a control freak Right
which all of us, all of us havea tendency.
Oh, yeah, yeah yeah, for sure,we're all working it out, you
know.
But Jesus was definitely he'sin control of all things.
But the way it got exercisedwas through sinful, broken,
frail people.
It seems kind of wild, butthere are so many things that go
(14:15):
on here at Christ Greenfieldand in our family and ministries
, there's no possible.
We got into a kind debate lastweek at a staff meeting.
We can talk about it, aboutcommunication right.
About communication A littlebit.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
Go ahead Pulling the curtain back.
Somebody very rightly broughtup that there's some instances
where things are not gettingcommunicated to all staff and
maybe we'd like to know moreabout it.
Totally fair right.
But the solution brought up wasmaybe we need to do more email.
And this is where the discernerin me pops out and says there's
no way you can send enoughemails to keep everybody, to
(14:50):
have everybody know everythingthat's going on in this
organization.
That is not going to happen.
That's just not going to happenhere.
We've become too complex as anorganization and some level we
have to get comfortable knowingthat this group knows what
they're doing and this groupknows what they're doing and not
everything.
They're not going to knoweverything what every group is
going to do.
And honestly, that's kind ofmore of Tim.
(15:11):
You're in I's job to be anactivator there, to be an
integrator, to try, and you know, a lot more of my work is
working across departments tomake sure that they're pulling
in the same direction here.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Right, and that they're communicating well in
meetings Like and then they'recommunicating well in meetings.
If the whole group needs toknow about it, then just bring
it up.
We have plenty of standingweekly meetings, our Gilbert
campus meets.
There's plenty of, I think,tactical sharing that goes on
there, like we're putting onHoly Week.
I just sat in a meeting andI'll be quite honest, as it
(15:42):
relates to the minutiae detailstuff, that's where I'm trying
to work hard to stay engaged inthat, because that's not where
my mind lives.
Ask my wife.
You know I live more at the30,000 foot view, but sometimes
you got to put on that.
Hey, we got to get it done andthere are people on our team who
love the details, jack.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
I love it and I love them because they love it, I
love it and I love them becausethey love them.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
I love them Exactly For sure.
All right, let's move on.
The second point that the Clarkfamily makes is in healthy
organizations, personal agencyis given through responsible
freedom.
I'll just read a little bitJesus gave personal agency to
his disciples and it startedwith an invitation come follow
(16:25):
me.
There was no demand, it was aninvitation to adventure, I
believe, sealed with a smile anda tone signaling humility and
courage, a voice worth following.
The disciples followed in faith.
When you hear personal agency,I think in a Lutheran I don't
have any kind of agency becauseit's all passive faith right.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
A charged term there right.
Yeah, it's certainly likedecision, theology and all of
these kinds of things.
But we have vocations right,and within the realm of those
vocations we've been called tomake decisions right.
And so to a certain extent, wedo have, we have been given
certain agency and you know, Ilike this term that there's
things above us and things belowus, right and so we do have
(17:07):
agency over certain things thatwe've been given responsibility
for and that we haveaccountability to make sure that
there's good outcomes for that.
And it doesn't mean that we'retaking the place of Jesus when
we're doing that Right.
That's the key thing, yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Well, and this is two kinds of righteousness stuff
here right.
We're talking in relation to theworld and our work together
with one another, filled withthe Holy Spirit, in love for our
neighbor.
Here's a thought experimentthat the authors had.
If you have the book leadingthrough worth getting, it's on
page 140.
In terms of agency and personalfreedom, responsible freedom,
(17:42):
imagine I got back from athree-day road trip and my young
kids were dirty and he told methey had not eaten in three days
.
What would I do?
He says.
Well, you're a negligent parentif that's the case.
But what would I do?
Nonetheless, I would feed themand give them a bath.
Now think about a similarsituation in an average
organization.
You come to work and you hearabout a problem.
(18:03):
In most cases, you would not doanything about it because it is
not your problem.
Somebody else in a different,well-defined role, created it,
so you don't need to fix it.
This is the tendency.
Where they're speaking to hereis that's that department.
If I see something, I don'twanna say something.
What we found out is whenacross departments see something
(18:24):
and say something, the leaderthat's responsible for that.
They may not see it.
You're right If you're.
If you're outside looking in,you can see it more clearly
often when you're in thewhirlwind, right in the trenches
of whatever the problem is.
You either don't see it, or yousee it and you you're praying.
No one else, You're praying noone else actually sees it Right,
(18:44):
because you're going to be kindof called out.
Any take on that, jack.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Yeah, that is a balancing act because I would
say, in my own leadership, Iwould say, first of all, in our
community.
I would describe our communityas highly, highly, highly
collaborative.
So we're having conversationsall the time about how work in
one department is impacting theothers, the time about how work
(19:07):
in one department is impactingthe others.
Sometimes I have to be a littlebit protective and sometimes I
have to say, okay, maybe you'reowning too much of what's going
on in a different department andyou need to back off a little
bit and let them do their thingright.
I've seen both sides of that.
So I would say that that'smaybe a coin where there could
be a good side and a bad side tothat approach.
You could go too far with that,with feeling like you own other
(19:28):
people's work, and you couldalso, like you said, be hands
off and say, well, that's theirdepartment.
You know and I'm not going tospeak into some dysfunction that
I'm seeing, even if it, even ifit's clearly impacting people.
So I would say there's a bit ofa healthy balancing act on that
.
I think it's well, Tim, I'mgonna use this word trust.
(19:52):
I think that's really what itboils down to is does your
environment of trust invite theright kinds of conversations?
And when you're giving acriticism to, let's say, a
different department or adifferent leader, is that a
trust-filled criticism or isthat a control-filled criticism?
And depending on the tone thatyou give, that's going to
radically depend on how that'sreceived by other people.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Yeah, every time there's some.
Yeah, I started two sentencesand now I'm thinking about how I
want to respond.
So I will.
I love it when people come upto me and because I have a
higher tolerance for frankconversation and just tell me
what they think about a thing.
You've heard the the crapsandwich right To have like a
(20:31):
super.
I got to like build you up andI got to tell you all this kind
of stuff You're doing great andstuff no.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
For me, based on my personality, you don't you don't
want the two pieces of toast onthe ends.
I don't need it.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Like, exactly, Just give me the meat and we toast on
the ends, I don't need it.
Like, exactly, Just give me themeat and we're going to grow.
And there's a, there's asystems perspective to that too,
because I, in our organization,we're a, we're a healthy.
We're not perfect, but we'rehealthy, and I truly believe the
level of health is governed byhow clear and honest and
(21:05):
truth-filled, loving and kindour conversations are, and
because we have a foundation oftrust.
There's not one person on ourteam or, frankly, in our
congregation.
I'm just thinking in general.
If they come up to me and tellme something that they see that
we need to improve on, yeah, I'mgoing to agree at least with
(21:26):
some element of what they'reseeing and we're going to work
on it.
We're going to work on ittogether.
If there was a ping in me whichthere can be I could get
triggered on various things,right, Like I did again to tell
this story from last week'sstaff meeting, I said and I even
use this language I'm gettingmildly frustrated that this
conversation has gone on for aslong as it had.
(21:49):
And then it continued.
This is Christ Greenfield.
I continue another five minutes,Anyway so it doesn't mean that
you're always like perfectly inlove with everything people are
saying, but the relationshipsare strong.
You can have the difficultconversation with the person if
the relationship is hard and Ieven use that in difficult
conversations.
Do you trust me?
If so, here it is.
(22:10):
Here's what we need to work onand off we go.
Anything more to say to that,Jack?
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
I think that's.
It is like the ability to dothat, to give personal agency
and have responsible freedom incertain areas.
The currency of that is trustand trust building.
I was, I was, I was just at aconference the other day people
who do a lot of what I do,similar types of roles and this
guy talked about trust as acurrency.
(22:35):
And when he onboards people, hesays, hey, when you have trust
at your back, it's like a 20mile an hour tailwind pushing
you forward with ministry Forsure, and if you don't have
trust, then it's like a 20 milean hour headwind pushing us
forward with ministry, and ifyou don't have trust, then it's
like a 20 mile an hour headwindthat you're pushing into.
So he encourages all of hispeople when they're onboarding
to say one of your primary jobshere is to steward trust.
(22:56):
You are a steward of trust.
You need to try to guard thattrust with your life and don't
do anything that undermines thattrust.
And then what that actuallylooks like, I don't know in his
context, but to me I thinkthat's a very powerful thing.
Are we a trust buildingorganization?
And, as we're doing, trustbuilding is that giving you know
?
Is that resulting in givingpeople the appropriate amount of
(23:19):
autonomy and empowerment thatthey need within their specific
areas.
All right, so they can leaninto their specific genius?
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Yeah, that they need within their specific areas
right so they can lean intotheir specific genius.
Yeah well, the next point, thethird out of our four points
we're making, leans into trusteven more deeply.
It's in healthy organizations.
Decentralized rather thancentralized decision-making is
the norm, jesus.
Decentralized authority.
Go make disciples, you'llreceive power to feed the
forgiveness of sins from theHoly Spirit.
(23:46):
He did not set up a top-downstrategy for decision-making.
Unless you view the top as theHoly Spirit, think about how
much trust was needed in theearly church to make sure the
purity of the gospel waspreserved.
The world was big Roads, andletters rather than videos,
texts and emails helped preservethe message.
Did heresy happen?
(24:06):
Yes, did the church respond?
Yes, creeds and confessionsmaintain the truth of the gospel
from town to town so that thenations would hear and believe
in Jesus as King and Lord.
Any take on decentralizedrather than centralized
decision-making, jack.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
Yeah, I think technology is starting to
transform our ability todecentralize.
You mentioned some key phraseshere in decentralization that
there's things like confessionsand creeds which are norming our
norms, right.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Values.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
Go ahead, Dominic.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
No, those are values, right yeah those are values.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
We don't use that language much, but why?
Speaker 2 (24:45):
they did.
That is, we have to put a linein the sand and say we will not
go anywhere beyond thisconfession.
These creeds centering us inthe word of God, they were
strong values I would say valuesand truths that we are adopting
organizationally.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
right, so they're truths and they're values that
we're adopting organizationally,and by adopting that I'm
inviting others who I trust tohold me accountable to that
Right?
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Well they're, you know.
So they're not contextualvalues, right, right, they're
universal values.
Speaker 3 (25:15):
Yeah, yeah.
So where the decentralizationof decision making can happen is
where there needs to becontextualization of decisions,
where values can be different.
I'm going to tell you right now, just within our staff, that
the values of our centralbusiness central business
operating team, as it's livedout, is different than what it's
(25:36):
going to look like on ourmarketing team, which is going
to be different than what itlooks like in our worship team,
because they're dealing withdifferent types of challenges
and issues, and so they'rebuilding culture slightly
different, they're makingdecisions slightly different
across those things, and yetthere's an organizational norm
for us that we have our sixvalues in our context, right
Jesus, bible, lutheran,community, mission, leadership.
(25:59):
Those things are universal, butthey're gonna play out at
higher, at greater levels ofintensity in different
departments, based on the needsof the work that they're doing.
Right, and that is an example,I think, of decentralizing
decision making.
I think, with respect todecentralizing decisions, the
way that that's done is throughextreme clarity and extreme
(26:21):
transparency.
And so, tim, you and I havewalked through this with a
governance change in the church.
Right, we went to what peoplecall the Carver model or the
policy governance model, andwhat are the two things that
people use to describe thatmodel.
It's high trust, highaccountability, right?
High trust, high accountability.
(26:41):
So what does that mean?
Tim, you, as the senior pastor,have authority.
That's been like a tremendousamount of authority that's been
invested into you by our board,which you also have the
authority to give away, andthat's been entrusted to you in
exchange for a lot oftransparency and a lot of
accountability for the resultsthat we're delivering Right?
So our organization, our board,does not micromanage decisions
(27:06):
that are happening in the church, and I've been in governance
where that does happen, and Ican tell you that model of high
trust and high accountability isthe standard that every
ministry should be aspiring toin terms of actually getting
stuff done.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Well, let's take that in two different directions.
If trust is there, if trustoutpaces accountability, yeah,
that can be dysfunctional, verydysfunctional, that's over
that's the pastor.
The pastor is kind of doingeverything and power struggles
(27:42):
can take place on that side Ifthere's on the on the maybe the
church worker side, if the otherand this is the balance, which
is why I love our, the model ofgovernance which is rigorous, by
the way, our team works so hardon these on the monitoring
reports that we put together toprove that we're living within
the boundaries, the limitations,and we're achieving the ends
(28:04):
that the congregation and thenbeing held accountable through
our board of directors have putin place.
Like there's no, trust me, youlike me, I'm a good guy.
No, like, show me the data.
This is why I think, just toback up a little bit, this is
why we have conversations arounda variety of different data
markers as we look at thebroader LCMS and are wondering
(28:25):
what are we doing about some ofthese data markers?
Right, it's because we liveconnected to the data Behind all
the data are people of highaccountability.
Behind the data are people whoare hopefully being served well,
because we have to give a lotof surveys for how we're
treating the members, how we'retreating our staff, how we're
(28:46):
advancing then the gospel ofJesus.
And so there's no, just trustme, because there are stories
and data markers that show thatwe're winning or not losing.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
basically, you know, tim, I'm thinking about a
military story now, somethingthat was remarkable learning
about military history in WorldWar Two.
They were raising up leadersrapidly and they would make
somebody a general Right andthey had six months.
They had six months to provethat they could perform on the
battlefield or whatever rolethat they were supposed to
(29:20):
support in their division orbattalion Right, and if they
didn't perform they werereplaced.
Period, that was how it was.
So they had remarkableauthority during that period of
time, but there was anaccountability mechanism and
like if, hey, if you weren't,with all of this authority that
you've been given, there's,there's, there's responsibility
(29:41):
that needs to be achieved, andif you're not going to get it
done, then we got other peoplein the pipeline that are going
to get it done.
And I don't know that our Idon't know that that type of
accountability exists as much inministry, maybe as much as it
should.
Maybe it's healthy that we havemore grace than we do.
I don't know.
I'm just my head is spinning onthat right, because, hey, this
(30:04):
is the great commission thatwe're going after and we're
spending resources on this, andlives matter right, like soul.
Care is deeply impacted by whatwe're doing.
And do we have that strongaccountability that there should
be some markers for outreachand mission and reaching people
and, you know, bringing peopleinto the church and bringing
(30:25):
people into small groups andbringing people into
discipleship and actually seeingthat happen in exchange for the
money that's being invested inpeople who are serving in staff
roles.
But we're also going to giveyou the authority and the
freedom to do this, to beinnovative, to test things, to
try things out, right?
So I guess I'm going on alittle bit of a rant here.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
No, kudos to our board and other boards,
committees, elder groups thatare lovingly caring for
encouraging those that have beencalled into ministry in the
local context and not fallingoff on too much the side of and
(31:03):
I don't have to have accountableconversations toward reaching
people with the gospel, withthat, with that leader, please
engage in those with love andclarity and kindness, but but
please engage in thoseconversations with your and and
if, if the leader say the pastor, the, the called or commission
called and commissioned workeris healthy, they'll receive the
(31:25):
feedback and say, hey, will youhelp me Because you're a part of
the body of Christ, will youhelp me with this?
Help me grow in this gap thatyou're obviously, obviously
seeing.
And I think what you're kind ofreferring to, jack, is there
could be a tendency this is thelast thing I'm going to say on
this topic there could be atendency for some leaders,
pastors, to hide behind the callrather than invite the
(31:47):
congregation.
The church always wins, by theway.
Yes, if pastors seek to playthe power game at the local
level, guys, that's not a gameyou really want to play, because
the church, the body of Christ,the movement of Christ, that is
the ultimate and you are inservice to the advancement of
the gospel, connected to thelocal church.
The final indicator of health inorganizations and can be
(32:10):
applied in the church areprinciples with clear guidelines
rather than rules governbehavior.
This teaching is a bit morenuanced than we've been talking
around it.
In the book leading through.
They say rules tend toprescribe specific behaviors in
advance of when action is needed, leaving people with very
little room for agency.
(32:31):
In contrast, principles tend tobe less specific and more
general and universal,preserving more freedom of
action.
For example, a rule would beevery attender at our church
will receive a handshake.
A principle would be we willmake every attender feel like
they belong at church.
See the difference, jack Go offon rules and principles.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
Yeah, so I guess what I would say is that culture
right is defined by behavior,more so than our language right.
So it starts with language andit does result in an expected
type of behavior and things.
So if you'd say, what is theculture of Christ Greenfield?
Well, people are measuring ourculture based on how we behave
(33:18):
right, and so handshakes,holding hands in service during
certain times, greeting yourneighbors, having a welcoming
environment, the value is thewelcoming environment there does
need to be this is what I'mgoing to challenge a little bit
here on this there does need tobe sometimes an expectation of
like well, what does this valuelook like as a behavior right?
(33:41):
And then sometimes we canevaluate whether that behavior
is happening or not.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
And the community.
So let me piggyback on that.
Yeah, and it's not one personsaying this is the way we do it,
this is how we do it and you.
but no, no, no, it's thecommunity together saying here's
one of our behaviors that we'veturned into a ritual, right,
that we've made into a ritual ora rite.
(34:08):
And you know, it's easy to lookat the divine service as one of
those ways in which we'veagreed to function as a group of
people is one of those ways inwhich we've agreed to function
as a group of people.
I guess to back up theinvitation is hey, if you're a
leader responsible, look at allthe different behaviors.
Which of those behaviors are inalignment with and you're using
(34:28):
hospitality in alignment withwe want every person to belong
here and which behaviors are not.
And some of those behaviorshave been so ingrained and I'm
going to use, since we're onhospitality, I'm looking out at
our courtyard.
There may be pockets of peoplewho are friends, who huddled
together and very rarely open upto see the other people who
(34:49):
they don't recognize and invitethem into conversation.
Right, jack, that's a behaviorthat a leader has to help the
congregation, kind of noticeAnything more to say there?
Speaker 3 (34:59):
And I would say well, I've had a lot of conversations
about, like you know, is thisbehavior conducive with certain
values and stuff.
But what I would rather do,what I would rather do as a
leader, is I would talk aboutwhy something's such a value and
then give away right, give awaythat responsibility to a team
(35:19):
for them to help shape whatbehaviors are going to lead to
that outcome.
That would be like as anexample of raising the lid of
leadership is you know, there isgoing to be some behavior, some
rules that govern behavior toget certain things done.
That's unavoidable.
But if you're a central leaderhere, this is where we get into
(35:40):
micromanagement of stuff, right?
I think the best way I've hadthis described is actually from
a book we recently read by JDGreer.
He talked about mobilizingpeople for mission and he said
if you're going to mobilizepeople for mission, you don't
give them a handbook on how to.
Well, he uses the analogy ofseafaring.
He says if you want people tobuild ships, you don't do that
(36:03):
by giving people a manual on howto build ships.
That's not how you get peopleto build ships.
He says you have to instill inpeople a deep, deep, loving
thirst for the ocean.
They have to thirst for theocean, and then they're going to
want to learn how to build theship, right?
That's the key thing.
And so you can give peoplemanuals and stuff like that, but
in reality, there's multipleright ways to build a ship.
(36:24):
The key thing is do they thirstfor the ocean?
Right?
And I think maybe that's wherewe're getting at right now is
are you building a thirstinessfor this area of ministry, to
see that it gets done?
And if you have that deepthirstiness embedded, you don't
have to talk about rules ofbehavior.
They're going to figure it out,yep.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
Well, that's what Jesus did A love and a thirst
for the kingdom, this kingdomthat comes out of heaven, a love
and thirst for Jesus, the breadof life, and then, post
ascension and post descension ofthe Holy Spirit, to do whatever
it takes to get the gospel intothe ears and hearts of people
that they would know the lightand love of Christ.
(37:03):
It appears as if Jesus wantedjust enough structure, evidenced
by the calling and sending ofthe 12 apostles.
Their principle would be love,love for all and the gospel
heard and believed by all.
It is very evident the churchdid not immediately establish
rules for what, for instance,worship liturgy would look like.
Instead, they led withprinciples to preserve the truth
(37:24):
of the gospel.
They did not stifle personaland contextual judgment or
creativity.
This responsible freedomallowed the gospel to spread
freely and quickly.
So here are my two kind ofclosing contextual questions for
those of us who lead at alldifferent levels in the Lutheran
Church Missouri Synod which ofthese four principles display
our greatest opportunity forchange in our local churches,
(37:47):
circuits, district and throughnational leadership?
And are we leveragingultimately the genius of Jesus
by the Spirit's power?
And I pray we will, the daysare too short to do otherwise.
Any closing comments there,jack.
Speaker 3 (37:59):
No, I think this has been a fascinating chat here,
tim.
I'm looking forward to learningmore about that book and seeing
how people respond to this blogpost, and I'm curious to hear
people's thoughts about this.
What do you, what is yourperception about and this is for
the audience right now what isyour perception and what ways do
you see the genius of Jesus asa leader, or do you think we're
(38:23):
being crazy by talking aboutthis way?
Just let us know, drop us acomment, tell us we're not
afraid of having boldconversations about this.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
Oh, exactly, Exactly, and we love you.
There's no, I've been thinkingabout this too.
There is no person or group inour church body or in the world
that is an enemy and adversaryof me or us.
This is our perspective and Ithink it comes from Christ.
(38:52):
We do recognize there is anenemy who seeks to steal, kill,
destroy and divide, and he wantsto keep us from one another and
keep us from loving.
Let us spur one another ontoward love and good deeds.
He wants to keep us from lovingand spurring one another on
toward love and good deeds, andI feel like the paradigm of
leading through rather thanleading over the humble story of
(39:16):
Jesus.
It just goes so aligned.
It's funny how secular scienceand so God is always ahead,
right, and sometimes socialscience just catches up.
That's just what Jesus did.
That's how this thing calledthe Christian movement changed
the course of human history.
This is Lead Time.
Please like, subscribe, commentwherever it is you take in
these podcasts and we'll be backlater on this week with another
(39:39):
fresh episode of Lead Time.
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
Thanks so much, Jack.
God bless friends.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the
Unite Leadership Collective.
The ULC's mission is tocollaborate with the local
church to discover, develop anddeploy leaders through biblical
Lutheran doctrine and innovativemethods To partner with us in
this gospel message.
Subscribe to our channel, thengo to theuniteleadershiporg to
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(40:07):
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Thanks for listening and staytuned for next week's episode.
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