July 29, 2025 • 47 mins
Subscribe to Lead Time for real talk about leading in the LCMS today.
Why are so many LCMS churches stuck in cycles of insecurity, burnout, and unhealthy culture? In this episode, Dr. Kirk Triplett joins Tim Ahlman and Jack Kalleberg to expose the deeper issues plaguing leadership culture in the Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod. From toxic feedback loops to forgotten celebration, from unclear mission to constant comparison—this conversation digs deep into what’s quietly killing joy and mission in our churches.
We explore:
- How the LCMS avoids clarity by hiding behind “love God, love people”
- The difference between behavioral values and organizational values
- Why too many pastors are driven by insecurity and the 2% who complain
- What the church can learn from Starbucks, big toes, and baby baptisms
It’s time to rest, rejoice, and relax—without losing momentum.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is Lead Time.
Speaker 3 (00:05):
Welcome to Lead Time, tim Allman, here with Jack
Kauberg.
It's a beautiful day to bealive, pray the joy of the
crucified and risen one.
We're recording this in Easterseason.
It is giving you a lot ofpassion, a lot of fuel to build
relationships, to multiplydisciples, to reach as many
people with the gospel aspossible in your local
congregation, in your home, inyour neighborhood, for sure.
(00:26):
That's why the local churchexists, which is to reach people
with the gospel through wordand sacrament.
Praise God, jack.
How are you doing, brother?
Speaker 4 (00:32):
Doing well, my friend .
It's a beautiful day here inArizona.
We're in the last final gaspsof nice weather before the heat
comes, so we're savoring it, andI'm also dealing with the
allergy consequences of it.
Yeah, if you hear anything,frog in my voice.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
I'm dealing with the same stuff.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
It is what it is Well , today we have Kirk Triplett.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
I've been a guest on his podcast, Positive Mental
Health of your Pastor podcast.
He's got a wealth of knowledgeto share with us.
He's a 27-year pastor,differing roles.
He's experienced the highs andlows of ministry, which is
inevitable for all of us.
He earned his doctorate inorganizational leadership, same
(01:16):
as myself, with the intent ofhelping the church, specifically
the leadership of the church.
From his research he'sdiscovered how a pastor's
positive mental healthinfluences church members.
He's created seminars,workshops for pastors, church
leaders and congregations, andthese resources offer pastors,
church leaders and members toolsthat encourage organizational
(01:39):
cooperation that builds a churchup in love.
He's got a book called Affirmed.
There it is Building thePositive Mental Health of your
Pastor.
It's a practical guide givingpeople tangible and intentional
tools to build leadership intheir congregation.
He is a new pastor at ZionLutheran Church in El Paso,
Texas.
Shout out to everybody there inEl Paso.
(01:59):
That's my former community.
Love that city for sure.
He's been married since 1991.
They have three adult childrenand four grandkids.
Kirk, how you doing, brother.
What a joy to be with you todayoh well, thanks so much, I'm
doing good.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
You know allergies or uh, you know, we're in kind of
the same neck of the woods, sortof, so the wind has been.
Uh, it's funny, I got to elpaso and then the weather kept
talking about dust events thatthey have in el pasoo, and so
it's quite apocalyptic at timeswhere you can't even see the
mountains across the, you know,across the street.
But no, it's been great beinghere.
(02:33):
Love, being at thiscongregation I feel like you
know we've been here for yearsis how it feels.
So just a really goodtransition, good people and so,
yeah, good to be here.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
Thanks, it's gonna be fun.
Let's talk about the topic thatyou love to talk about and we
do as well Organizational health.
How do you define a healthyorganization?
Let's start there, kirk.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Yeah, that's a.
That's a great question.
You know it's interesting thoseof us who have studied it.
Or there's no, there's noshortage of different tools and
assessments, and one andprocesses are really important.
I know Jack's kind of, fromwhat I've heard, a little more
of a process guy.
I'm not that guy.
I appreciate them and I thinkthey're important.
I'm a culture guy.
(03:15):
You know how do you createculture in that?
And I think it's important theyhave both.
And so when I was on vacationthis last week with my family,
my son's a pastor here in ElPaso as well, and he's eaten up
all these different leadershipthings.
And so you talk about thewidget assessment.
You know, are you a wonder?
(03:35):
Are you invention, are youdiscernment galvanizer enabler
or one who has tenacity?
And so he's trying to tell mewhat I am.
And you know, I think he'sright, one who has tenacity, and
so he's trying to tell me whatI am, and then you know, I think
he's right.
But the whole point is is I lookat organizations and I feel
that sometimes we can get socaught up in process and
assessment and titles that wemiss the big picture.
And so for me, what I woulddefine as a healthy organization
(03:58):
is one that has a clearmissional focus, and this is
even with outside the church too.
So years ago, I worked for Ithink I can say this Starbucks,
and I was a regional coffee guyfor Northern California, and I
used to do teach classes, and atthat time the mission statement
was to become the premierpurveyor of coffee, while
maintaining the compromisingprinciples as we grow.
(04:20):
So everything we did kind offiltered through this, and so I
always find it's reallyimportant that there's a clear
mission for any organization, sothat when you have ideas come
to the table, you look at them.
There might be great ideas, butdo they really fit the mission
of that organization?
So ours, obviously.
You know the church.
You go find mission statementseverywhere.
(04:42):
It's always love God, lovepeople, right, I mean, that's
kind of how it is, which isn'twrong and that's right, but go
make disciples is the missionthat God gave us, and so I think
the missional focus, though,also needs to have defined
expectation and outcomes,because I think sometimes we
come up with these missionstatements we can pick on love
(05:03):
God, love others, but what doesthat look like, right?
What's the expectation?
How does that practically workout in everyday organizational
life.
Back to my coffee example.
Everything was how do we becomethe premier purveyor of the
finest coffee in the world whilemaintaining our uncompromising
principles as we grow right?
How do we do that?
And so we filter everythingthrough that, and I think it's a
(05:24):
great plumb line for people inyour organization to go this is
who we are.
You know, christ Greenfield isnot Zion El Paso.
Some of it's contextual,obviously, which I'll get into
in a little bit with some of theother questions, but we look at
it.
We have to make sure that weand I think also when you look
at your mission of your healthyorganization be willing to
(05:44):
assess it every so often, bewilling to have a good team of
people and go is this who we are?
Because, especially in thechurch, dynamics change, people
pass away, people move, peoplecome into your congregation and
dynamics change.
Is this still the propermission for our current culture,
our current mix of people?
And so that's the number onefor a healthy organization.
(06:07):
I think also a culture ofcollaboration is really
important, which increasesindividual investment in the
mission of the organization.
And so one of the things I loveto do is cheer for people and to
kind of unleash them and sayyou know, hey, let's talk about
your ministry.
What does it look like?
How can I help?
(06:27):
How can I come alongside, howcan I help with direction?
But then, when we talk aboutsteps to do it, I want them to
feel empowered to go do it right.
And so a lot of times after Ihave conversations, people come
and say well, what do you thinkabout this?
I'm like great, love it, go forit.
I mean, you know most of it,because I want them to.
I want people in theorganization to feel that it's
(06:49):
their organization, it's theirchurch, it's not my church.
I mean, we know it's God'schurch, right, but when it's,
this is their church and this istheir community of people, how
can they serve it, how do theythe freedom to serve it in
creative ways without and I wantthem to, hopefully me, with the
(07:10):
elders and myself is that whenthey come up with something, all
we do is clap and say go for it, keep going, we love it right.
And that comes, too, fromrespect and worth of all
individuals.
And you know we see this in thechurch that Paul wrote to.
I think it's in the Corinthians.
You know, don't look at the toeas being something that's you
know it's very important to havethe toe.
(07:30):
You might cover it up, but it'svery important.
Everybody is very important inthe organization.
I always often tell the storywhen we talk about this my great
uncle.
We went to visit him years ago.
He was up in Redding, dunsmuir,california, above Redding.
And we get there and there's anote on the door that says Bud's
in the hospital.
He's long since gone.
But so we go to the hospitaland he was mowing his lawn and
(07:51):
he fell backwards and cut offhis big toe and half of his
second toe and he had to taketherapy to learn how to balance
and walk again.
And you wouldn't think, oh,it's just a big toe, big deal.
But that was such an importantaspect that he needed that.
(08:12):
And I think that's what theorganization to.
Those big toes, those ones thatyou cover up, are just as
important as as those of us whohave our face in front of people
all the time.
In fact, I would almost saythey're more important of the
stabilization of the body.
And so I think respect andworth.
And then I think the last thingfor a healthy organization.
You got clear, missional focus,a culture of collaboration,
respect and worth of allindividuals.
And the last thing would beconsistently asking what's next?
(08:36):
And I think that that gives youa culture of discovery, a
culture of expectation, aculture of how do we meet, how
does this organization meet theneeds of whatever context we're
in?
Or how do we continue to grow?
Because I think sometimes wejust can kind of say, oh, we're
good, we're good like this, andI think we find this in the
church.
(08:56):
Often you get a church that saysthat has 120 capacity in the
pews, right, and you're like, oh, we get to 100.
We're fine, we kind of feelfull.
Well, no, because we don't wantto entertain.
What does it look like to havea second service?
What does it look like to havean appropriate overflow?
What does it look like to serve?
And so I think it's alwaysgoing what's next?
(09:17):
And in the church context, howcan I serve our community, our
community, first and foremost,that calls this their home
church.
Where are they serving in thecommunity?
That's another thing I like tofind all the time.
Where are they serving in thecommunity?
How can we as a church getbehind what they're doing?
So I'm sure you have plenty ofthings to say so that was very
comprehensive kirk.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
It's like you've thought about this before and
I'm grateful for it hey, youtalked about let's go back to
missional focus, and then youdovetailed on expectations and
outcomes.
When I hear outcomes, I thinkobjectives, goals, right.
When I hear expectations, Ithink values.
And then I heard you kind ofdovetail down to respect.
(09:59):
I heard a differentiation.
I would differentiateorganizational values for us
it's jesus, bible, lutheran,leadership, community mission
right from behavioral values.
And I would couple then respectfor everyone's voice and that
that even kind of moves into wedo things together here, the
(10:20):
culture of of collaboration thatyou talked about.
Your your point number twoWould you equate expectations
with values?
And how do you differentiatevalues, behavioral values, from,
maybe, organizational values?
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Kirk, yeah, so now you're kind of talking
discipleship really is reallywhat it boils down to.
What does it look like to createdisciples in the church?
And so, obviously I think thereis, if that is part of your
missional value, which I thinkit should be for every church,
we're here to make disciples.
The Great Commission that doestransfer to some degree to
behavior, right, I mean you takein sinners who are saved by
(10:55):
grace and we are growing in thegrace and knowledge of our Lord
Jesus Christ, as the Holy Spiritis changing us moment by moment
from glory to glory into thevery image of Jesus Christ.
I like to look at my definitionof what the work of the Holy
Spirit does is the Holy Spiritis leading us and guiding us
into all truth while working thevery disposition of Christ into
(11:15):
us.
So that disposition piece itwould show forth in behavioral.
Now I think that the question isand maybe I'm not understanding
the question completely, butthe question is if the
organization expectation doesn'tmatch the behavioral
expectation and I think theykind of go hand in hand If your
(11:40):
job is and your mission is tocreate disciples and to make
great lovers of Jesus, thosepeople who share the good news,
who are on mission themselvesbecause we're ambassadors of
Christ and we're pleading withpeople to be reconciled to God
through Jesus Christ.
I think that if that's one ofthe main missions of the church
and that outcome, thatexpectation, should be seen
(12:03):
individually and collectively asa congregation.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
Yeah, it's very good, Jack.
Anything to add?
Speaker 4 (12:08):
Well, yeah, I think I just wrote this big manifesto
on the topic of mission, visionand value language and it was
kind of researching all of thebest thinking on these topics
and at a very high level youcraft a mission statement to
define why you exist.
And it's very important becauseevery single church can just I
(12:30):
mean like you could press theeasy button and say, well, we
follow the Great Commission, butthat's true for every church,
but every church has its contextand its community and its
unique challenges and its uniqueopportunities.
And so you have to flex intothat and say what makes us
unique in the Great Commissionand then write a mission
statement that reflects theuniqueness of your organization.
(12:53):
Just like we as individuals arepart of a body, congregations
are part of the body and they'rekind of filling in different
roles and reaching differentpeople.
So you have to write a missionstatement that reflects your
uniqueness right and like boldlyleans into that.
And then we have these value.
Well, I'm going to pause realquick there.
Then we have a vision statement, and I think what happens a
(13:16):
little bit with some of thevision language is we don't get
specific with it.
So we might say, hey, ourvision, it might be a shortened
version of our mission statementmultiply disciples or whatever.
In reality, you want to say,hey, we want to plant five
churches over the next 10 years.
That's a proper visionstatement.
(13:36):
So vision statements reallyought to be concrete and
actually give some definitionabout what we're pulling into.
And then your values languageare creating your guardrails,
both positive and negativeguardrails for you as you're
moving forward and leaning intoit.
So it's it's basically sayingthese are the, these are the
non-negotiables as we moveforward into this, into this
(13:58):
vision, into this mission.
Right, these things are notgoing to be compromised.
And a really great um, a reallygreat filter for those and this
can be a little bit harsh butyour value statements should be
held so passionately that you'rewilling to lose people over it.
Right.
If people said, no, you need toabandon this value or I'm
(14:20):
leaving, it's like, okay, we'llhelp you find another church
that fits you better.
Or I mean, ideally you wouldtry to disciple them to
understand that the importanceof that value, right, but if
that doesn't work, we're goingto lovingly help you find
another congregation where thatfits your values better.
Right, but it's held so deeplyhere that you're willing to lose
people over it.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
Yeah, that was a good , helpful summary, Jack.
Let's talk about your what'snext?
Human beings desperately need anext.
Human beings desperately need anext.
The status quo, a lack ofinertia, a lack of momentum, it
kills the human being.
I mean, just think,biologically, for us there's no
set it and forget it.
As it relates to our bodies,taking care of our bodies,
(15:03):
Either we're progressing orwe're regressing.
And the same is exactly truefor the local congregation and
the pastors, and this is moreart than it is science.
Right, the pastor's call is toI've said it before, Jack
disappoint people at a rate theycan handle.
Or when you sense, because youwill sense oh, we've arrived or
(15:25):
we completed.
Well, one we should celebrate.
I think we don't oftencelebrate wins enough.
We're always to the next.
But then we say and here's thenext hill.
Psychologically, it's neverabout arriving, it's about
reaching the pinnacle of onehill and seeing another hill in
the distance.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Anything more to say toward the necessity of next,
Kirk, yeah, so I think that it'sa weird tension that we find
ourselves in because weaccomplish something and we just
want to rest and enjoy it, butthen there's something that
drives us and I kind of look atit.
As you know, you eat a greatmeal and you can enjoy that for
(16:02):
a moment, but the reality isyou're going to want another
meal and you're going to try torecreate that meal.
And you realize the challengeis we try to recreate stuff that
God says I have something morefor you.
So when I was doing music fulltime at a large church in New
Mexico, I had one guy that keptcoming up and asking me for you
got to do this song.
(16:23):
You got this song and this songwas, like you know, in the
Jesus movement in the 70s and Iwasn't in the kumbaya too much,
was, like you know, in the Jesusmovement in the 70s and I
wasn't in the kumbaya too much.
Finally, I just said, fine, I'mgoing to do it Right.
So I did it.
And he came up to me afterwards.
He goes well, that didn't feelthe same and I said, exactly.
I said you're trying to create.
God met you in this Right.
God met you in that.
Great Praise the Lord, but nowhe has something better for you.
(16:44):
So you got to look forward, andI think that when we look at,
even when Jesus ascension, youknow they're looking up and why
are you doing?
Go do what he says Go do stuff.
You have things to do and weare created to do stuff, and I
think that that's one of theimages of God that he has placed
upon us uniquely is that welove to create, and so I think
(17:07):
that you know why.
You know, if you write a greatsong, why write more?
I wrote one great song, right,or I wrote a best sermon ever.
Why write more?
And it's like well, becausewe're our own worst critics too,
right?
We say, well, it wasn't thatgreat, absolutely.
You know.
I mean, you've probably beenthere, tim.
You've given what you thoughtwas a great sermon and no one
said anything to you, and you'relike what?
(17:28):
And then you thought youflopped and everyone's like, oh,
that was so great.
So that's why we know it's theHoly Spirit.
But the Holy Spirit is alwaysmoving us forward too, and so
when we think about the whatnext?
The Great Commission is not astat, it's not something that
just maintains static right.
We have to constantly moveforward.
And so I always tell people youknow, god didn't save you so
(17:48):
you can sit.
He saved you to send you.
And so you know why are youbeing saved?
Well, so that I can be withJesus.
So that's great, you'reforgiven, that's wonderful, he's
cleansed that all.
But now why has he left you here?
You know, if it was just aboutyou getting saved, then you'd be
gone, right.
No, he left you here because hehas stuff for you to do, and
Ephesians 2.10 says that rightthat we would do were his
(18:14):
workmanship, his work of art,that we would do those works
that he has prepared in advancefor us to walk in.
So when we think of what next,it's like okay, lord, what is
that next work that you'veprepared, the divine setup, I
don't have to really stressabout it, let me walk in it.
And so I think that if you'renot looking at what next, you're
becoming stagnant.
Running water is a greatexample.
Speaker 4 (18:32):
So Kirk a flip side of that, and this is like my own
sort of confession of areasthat I need to develop in.
I am so hyper focused on movingforward on things that I
absolutely will sometimesepically fail to celebrate the
wins that a ministry team hasachieved or the progress that's
been made, because I'm justconstantly looking forward all
(18:55):
the time and I think there'skind of like this both, and you
know, I have to be reminded, Ineed to remind myself, but I
also need to count on otherpeople to remind me.
Hey, let's celebrate.
Let's celebrate the wonderfulthings God has done, you know,
over the last six months, overthe last year, right Even this
current month, like be morepresent and not sacrifice being
(19:16):
future focused, but also be alittle bit more present focused
as well.
Any thoughts on that?
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Yeah, no, that's good .
I have a good example.
I think I have a good example.
I had written this Christmasprogram for the large church.
We had about 1,800 people showup to it more than they've ever
had and it was a lot of work.
And afterwards the seniorpastor comes up and he goes well
, that was good, but let's takeit to the next level next year.
And I remember sitting theregoing okay, so it wasn't good.
(19:43):
And so that became a jokeactually among the.
You know, yeah, and so thatbecame a joke actually among the
.
The assistant pastors to him wasalways well, he, let's take it
to the next level.
We'd have big events.
I mean, we did a mud bog.
We did a mud bog fundraiser,made 40 grand and had 4 000
people show up to it.
And that was the comment.
(20:04):
After all, this day of work andit's really not just the day of
work, right was okay.
Well, next year, let's take itto the next level.
And I think that to your point,jack, is that, yeah, work, and
it's really not just the day ofwork, right, it was okay.
Well, next year, let's take itto the next level.
And I think that to your point,jack, is.
I think it's important becausehere's the challenge you do
something and a lot of timesyou're like, oh great, it's over
and you leave it right, andthere's a moment of debrief.
That's really important whatwent well, what can we do better
(20:25):
next time.
But I think in that debrief youpause for a little bit and say,
man, let's just celebrate whathappened here and look for the
things that maybe you wouldn'tlook for.
So, like for VBS out in Idaho,when I was there, we changed it
to Bible camp because nobodywants to go to school during
vacation.
But you know, the big win forme over the years was, as we
(20:47):
continue to build it was ourlast year there we had almost as
many adult volunteers as we didkids who attended it, and to me
that was the win because and Isaid that to him isn't this
great?
Look, look at what, what we getto do together and the
fellowship that we had together,and that's the win.
You could go well, man, youknow we had this many kids and
(21:08):
we also had this many adultsmake great.
We were like a one to one and ahalf ratio, I mean adult to kid,
and and so I'm like that is abig win and and so I think,
pausing and being appropriate inyour pause uh, you know, and
Jack, you would have to decidethat for you Um, and maybe Tim
can help you with that it's like, hey, can we just wait a couple
of days before we look at thenext thing, you know, because
you don't want to just set andgo.
(21:30):
Oh, that was great.
You know, we had like I've hadyeah, I agree, I've had like 10
baptisms.
Speaker 4 (21:35):
I don't think I could be capable of doing that.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
But I think intentionality right.
It sounds like you have to beintentional to go wait.
Let me and I would even saythis is me personally sometimes
write those wins and talk topeople about those wins, so that
you do intentionally take thetime, because I think you're
wired similarly to probably allof us on this podcast is okay
that's great.
Now the next thing.
Speaker 4 (21:58):
What's next?
Speaker 3 (21:59):
Next level.
Our brains are so unique andfascinating.
Unfortunately, our brains arebroken and one of the products
of sin is we fly like the salmonof Capistrana to negativity,
you know, and then we justimmerse ourselves in it.
(22:19):
And I'm speaking fromexperience.
This last Easter we had ourfirst Easter in our gym and one
of the services this isn't tothrow out, it was absolutely
packed.
I don't even't to throw out, itwas absolutely packed.
I don't even need to throw outthe number Absolutely packed.
Team did so much work to make itso special.
There were people coming outand said that was unbelievable.
Just ah, da, da, da, da.
One leader comes out and saidwell, I could hardly stay in.
(22:44):
That music was way too loud.
And two people behind me theywalked out because they just
couldn't do it anymore.
They were like in theireighties or whatever you know.
They just couldn't handle it.
Like 99% of the comments werevery, very positive best worship
experience in.
They could possibly imagine thetransformation of the gym, blah
, blah, blah.
But guess where my brain goes?
I can't believe those twopeople.
(23:04):
They, they were like you'realways going to have that.
If you're risking anything,leader, there's always going to
be the potential that you're notgoing to please everybody.
So why are we even doing that?
And I got to say one otherthing why are we even looking at
?
This is why I didn't even dropthe number of people why are you
even looking at other churchesor other?
And it's so, so toxic to thehuman brain.
(23:25):
Social media today you can seeoh why can't we do this?
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blahthat you can get a culture of
negativity where you disrespectthe people on the ground that
are working very, very hard.
And you're always looking at atthe next.
And I had to fight against it,jack.
You're fighting against it andjust celebrate and sit in the
celebration longer than younormally, than you normally
(23:46):
think you should, especially ifthat's your tendency always
looking at what's next, jack.
Speaker 4 (23:50):
One of the traps that that can cause, and I try to
combat this too.
I do believe in ourcontemporary context people want
a high energy kind of boomierkind of experience and that's
what people think of as a greatexperience.
But you're going to have like2% that are very vocal about how
(24:10):
they don't like that, and ifyou end up mixing to that or
modifying everything toaccommodate that 2%, now you've
kind of like neglected the 98%that was really appreciating the
higher energy kind ofexperience.
And so we have to kind ofreally and it requires a lot of
discipline and grit to kind ofthink through that and to try
(24:31):
and kind of hold those commentsthat way.
Speaker 3 (24:34):
It's sad, it's sad because I don't know that we
create the feedback loops forpeople to give positive comments
.
Speaker 4 (24:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
Like the net promoter score.
We're going to look at it, buthow?
How prone are we to look at thenegative comments long before
we look at all the commentsabout?
Speaker 4 (24:50):
what they like, immediately, zoom in on it.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
We immediately hyper-focus on it.
So I think we need to createbetter feedback loops for people
, because people are not goingto come out and tell you all the
time that was spectacular.
You know you should keep doingthis, the level of volume or
whatever the organ or the like.
They're just not going to do itunless you seek it out.
So the net promoter score isvery, very helpful toward that
(25:14):
rhythm as we land this plan andtransition Kirk.
Final comments on healthyculture and really emphasizing a
celebration in your community.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Yeah, well, I think that you tap on something that
is part of what I do is that,first of all, pastors and
leaders typically are extremelyinsecure people, and so you know
, as much as outgoing as we canbe, as connected as we can be
with people, we want people tolike us, and so that 2% you know
(25:43):
that, we know, and you said it,you said it so well.
We know that we're not going toplease everybody, but yet, for
some reason, we still try to it.
So well, tim, we know thatwe're not going to please
everybody, but yet, for somereason, we still try to, and so
I think that what's importantwhen we talk about celebration
is one of the things that thetools that I give pastors and
church leadership is a simpleassessment tool.
I encourage pastors to do it ona weekly basis, to go okay, how
(26:04):
and I asked this at the end ofalmost all my podcasts is, how
did someone make you smile inthe last two weeks?
Because I think sometimes weagain, we perseverate on that
negative instead of go wait asecond.
That's not the real picture.
It's not the real picture ofeverybody.
And we could go on about musicand stuff, because I dealt with
that a lot being in acontemporary context and
(26:25):
cranking it up.
Man, if you get clarity, youcan run 98 deci decibels and
it's beautiful thing if it'sclear anyway.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
So that's a different .
Speaker 2 (26:34):
But the whole point is is that I think that that, um
, if you are intentional and youhave people are intentional
about saying, well, let's justcelebrate one wet.
Well, you know things are goingto go wrong, I mean.
So I did a baby baptism theother day and the baby blew out
two christening or baptismaloutfits.
(26:54):
Right and praise the Lord, theybrought a third right and I was
just watching reruns of theOffice, and when Jim and Pam get
their baby, they're in at-shirt because she blew it out
too, and it's like what's theimportant thing is, they were
there, they brought their childto the barn and we celebrated
what God was doing.
That's the big win.
(27:15):
It's not all these otherdistractions that happen.
And so I think that it's reallyimportant that we, as leaders,
are intentional about pointingpeople to what's going well and
calling it out, and I think,individually too, when we go to
people and say you know, Ireally appreciate what you do
here.
There's a book I can't rememberthe guy's name, wayne something,
(27:37):
a church guy in Hawaii yearsago, and he would go into the
children's ministry during partsof the service while they're
doing music or whatnot, andthere was a gal changing a
diaper and he goes what are youdoing?
And she goes well, I'm changingthe diaper for this.
He goes no, you're not.
You're providing a place whereparents can feel that their
child is safe, so that they canhear from the Lord, and so I
(27:59):
think that you know just how doyou frame it.
How are you?
Every work has purpose, every,everything that somebody does.
And volunteers, let me tell youvolunteers, they want to do
things correctly, and so how dowe, how do we reinforce that?
How do we celebrate whatthey're doing?
And so I think for pastors andleaders, it's really, really
(28:19):
important that you could lookfor every service, thanking
somebody for what they're doingand telling them hey, good job,
I really appreciate that.
You know there's hand outbullets and say I really
appreciate you doing this.
Um, this is really great.
You're greeting people, so, um,I hope that kind of that's good
, that's good.
Speaker 3 (28:36):
And a shout out to you mentioned insecure pastors
and leaders and, and uh, I thinkthat I think that can be true.
Hopefully we're growing atougher skin and a softer heart
as we are in this for a whilelonger.
But I'll tell you what, ifyou're, there's a lot of lay
leaders that listen to this.
A word of encouragement,specific word of encouragement
(29:00):
to a pastor A pastor's call isvery, very difficult.
Consistent messages, et cetera.
Consistent messages, et cetera.
But a word of specificencouragement from a lay leader
who's a trusted friend, partner,ally, that goes a long, long
way.
So I would encourage you, writeletters, say specific words of
(29:21):
encouragement, build one anotherup, do it more so and give
honor where honor is due, bothfor volunteer serve team members
, as well as those who are inpaid leadership roles in the
church.
All right, let's pivot here alittle bit.
Kirk, go back.
I mean, you've been at thisthing now in the local church
for a long time, almost threedecades.
Right, if you could go back andtell your you know new church
(29:44):
worker one, two year out, selfwords of wisdom, what would you
tell them?
And even if you want to tellstories of what you didn't see
coming, that now you see comingin a different way and you
handle situations in the churchdifferently.
Now, kirk, let's tell thatstory.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
Yeah.
So I think that I'll answer acouple of the questions here.
You know you come into ministryand you know you just want to
serve the Lord and you justthink, oh, it's going to be so
great to serve the Lord, it'sgoing to be wonderful,
everyone's going to love me andyou lead with your heart.
I mean, I like that tougherskin, softer hearts.
(30:21):
You never want to lose thatsoft heart because it will get
stepped on, and I think thatthat's why it's important that
you have some tools in your bagto remember that.
So I grew up in the church.
So what's great is a lot ofstuff in the church doesn't
blindside me.
I've seen a lot growing up andit still didn't deter me from
(30:44):
ministry.
So that's great.
But I remember one time I justmoved my family to New Mexico to
take this music position of alarge 2,000-person church and we
were getting ready forChristmas and I gathered a bunch
of people for a choir and thisolder lady stood up.
She goes.
Well, no one else is willing tosay this, but I'm going to say
this she goes.
The Holy Spirit left when youarrived and so it got quiet in
(31:10):
that room really fast.
That's a strong accusation, shewas, and so it got quiet in that
room really fast.
That's a strong accusation, andso, you know, I said well, no
one is forcing you to be here,you know if that's how you feel,
but I mean, how do you respondto that, right?
And so I think that you have togo.
Okay, there are some things inministry that are going to
(31:31):
happen, and so, if I were tolook back, three words that I
would tell myself is, first ofall, relax, rest and rejoice.
And when I say relax, it's nottied to your point, jack, we
always go.
What's next?
What's next?
I feel like we put thispressure on ourselves that we've
got to do things, because theministry hinges upon whether or
(31:54):
not we do it correctly.
And so I think that relax isthe first thing.
Relax in the Holy Spirit.
It's the Holy Spirit's work.
He's doing it.
Not that I want to be a slothand I want to, you know, but
it's a long game.
I think that there is a senseof urgency.
Right, people are going to hell, and we want to reach them, and
that's a real thing.
But at the same time, I'm sothankful God is not dependent
(32:20):
upon me to save others.
He's the one that does thesaving.
And so I need to be faithful inmy context and just enjoy it,
relax, and so rest is importantand just enjoy it.
Relax and so rest is important.
I'm still terrible at this.
I teach this.
I teach pastors about how torest.
I am terrible at it and, justbeing honest, I rarely.
(32:41):
I'm not good at taking fulldays off and I, you know I was
on vacation and studying, youknow, my sermon every day and
answering emails and all thisstuff.
But some of that's how I'mwired.
We don't need to get into that.
But I think that and thenrejoice, because I think to what
we've been talking about thisdovetails really well is that I
(33:03):
put that pressure on myself, I'mnot relaxing, so therefore I'm
not resting, because I feel likeif I rest, then I'm feeling
guilty that I'm not doingsomething and then I miss to
rejoice in what God is actuallydoing, and so that is kind of my
you know, and I would say thatfor any pastor is to relax, and
(33:26):
then you know, tied with that isenjoy what you're doing.
I remember leading music oneSunday and seeing who wasn't
there.
I'm standing up there strummingmy guitar, singing a song
praising Jesus, and I'm lookingat who's not there.
They haven't been here for twoweeks.
They call it their home churchand I remember just being mad.
I don't want to.
Well, I'll say this.
I was pissed off, can I saythat?
And I remember the Holy Spiritreally worked with me.
(33:46):
He goes.
You know you were spending somuch of your energy being upset
with those who aren't here thatyou're missing out on
ministering to those who arehere.
And so you know, just be in themoment and relax, trust the
Lord for those other people Doyour part.
So I mean, I think that kind ofanswers your question.
Yeah, it does.
Speaker 3 (34:04):
It does.
Speaker 4 (34:04):
Go ahead, jack.
Well, it's interesting.
You can do everything right andit may not work out because God
has other plans.
And you can do everything rightand it may not work out because
God has other plans.
And you can do everything wrongand it may work out because God
has other plans.
And so that is like theoverlaying truth of everything.
And at the same time this isthe Lutherans holding things in
(34:26):
tension thing we're still calledinto ministry, to be zealous
with ministry and to stewardthings really really well.
Both things are true at thesame time.
I think it's really about, like,how do we see ourselves truly
in that story?
Right?
Do we see ourselves asstewarding and depending on God,
or do we see ourselves as, no,it's all on us, right, and I
(34:48):
think that's where the imbalance, the imbalance can be Right.
Right, and I think that's wherethe imbalance, the imbalance
can be Right, and you might havean imbalance.
That might be well, I'm noteven going to exercise
stewardship here because it'sall God and so I'm not.
I'm just going to sit back anddo nothing, right, so, like I
think you could be imbalanced ineither direction on that.
I think that's kind of mytakeaway on that is that we do
(35:14):
have these vocations.
We are invited to join Jesus onhis mission to steward
resources and assets really well, to think hard about leading
well in the ministry, and at thesame time God's got his own
plans that may or may not alignwith what we're doing, and we
have to find a way, withhumility, to submit ourselves to
that and find peace and comfortand joy in it.
Speaker 3 (35:29):
Well, the only Go ahead, Kirk Go ahead.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Sorry, tim, I think context is everything going back
to mission and things like that, and I appreciate Tim not
saying the number for the thatwe were in the gym, because I
think the challenge is that wehave different contexts all over
the place.
If I'm in a rural town of 7,000that is 98% Mormon, can I
(35:54):
really have the expectations toplant five churches in the next
two years, or whatever that is?
Or can I, do I really have theexpectation to grow the church X
amount and so we have to bereally important.
I remember going to I was in asmall church at the time and I
went to a worship conference andall, all the big dogs are there
, right, they got paid musiciansand they're, and I'm like how
(36:15):
do I take that, how do I learnsomething from that and take it
back to my context?
Because I I'd be frustrated ifI try to reproduce that.
It's impossible.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
Um and so, yeah, I think, uh, that was some good
words there hey, the only way Ihave found and the Spirit has
kind of led me and continues tolead and shape me to not compare
, not compete.
Pastors love to compete.
Oh, my goodness, I was just.
I'm trying to keep from goingdown a track.
I was with a whole host ofpastors and there were lines in
(36:45):
my the way I relate to humansthat were crossed as these
pastors just kind of ribbed itone another quite a bit.
I love all of you guys, it'sgreat, but it was a fascinating
sociological experience withthese alpha males in a room and
the only way I've found tomaintain joy in the moment is
(37:06):
gratitude.
Right now, right for thismoment.
So I'm grateful.
There's, like I don't know, acouple dozen moms out here with
all these little preschoolersrunning around our courtyard
right now in preparation forMother's Day on a Sunday Sunday.
Like can we train our brains bythe Spirit's power to be
grateful for every person thatshows up?
(37:28):
Like no one's forcing people toshow up, they're voluntarily
getting ready, getting in theircar or whatever and coming to
church.
So I don't care if it's 50 or500 or whatever.
I can't.
I can't believe like you showedup today and because you showed
up, god's going to show up andshow off and he's going to meet
you right where you're at.
So do we have that kind ofgratitude that flows from
(37:52):
whatever?
And this is theological right?
What do I deserve?
I don't deserve any of this.
I don't deserve today.
I don't deserve this leadershipposition.
I don't deserve to have peoplehonor me.
I deserve hell and wrath andcondemnation, judgment from God
and from others, because I'm apoor, wretched, miserable sinner
.
So everything now in my newidentity in Christ is gravy man.
(38:12):
It's icing on the cake.
I have won, I've arrived,because Christ says I'm enough
just as I am right now.
My identity is secure in him.
And so like competing andcomparing and living with this
kind of like anxiousness, Idon't really have any kind of
appetite for that, because I'm anew creation in Christ.
Now I do, because my sin naturecontinually attacks me.
(38:34):
Oh, wretched man that I am.
But I've been saved by Christ,the crucified and risen one you
know.
So that should lead us aspastors to have just a different
posture, a more open, I wouldsay playful, adventurous,
curious posture that's filledwith gratitude.
Anything more to add on to that?
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Oh well, I mean, I think it goes back to really
where we started.
You know, a healthyorganization, we're talking
about a healthy church, it'sworth of all individuals.
Because you're saying thatperson that came, you know Jesus
wants to meet them.
And that humility of mind,because I think sometimes if we
were honest and if you hit,because I think sometimes if we
were honest and if you hit onsomething very important, if
(39:14):
we're honest, um, we strugglewith imposter syndrome, um,
because if people really knew,um, they wouldn't listen to me.
I mean, right, that's what youthink, um, but I think there's a
healthy balance to go.
Lord, this is your work.
Because, um, I know, like Ialways tell people why am I a
pastor?
Because I'm so weak.
God had to put me into thechurch so that I would stay, you
(39:36):
know, on focus, becauseotherwise, you know, I'd
probably be in jail or dead.
But that's a whole differentconversation.
But I think that it's importantfor us to go.
You know, man, christ died forevery single person that walks
in our doors or onto ourproperty and I think that goes
out into the communityEverywhere I go.
(39:56):
Christ died for that person.
And it's hard because sometimesthere's people that you're like
I know Christ died for you, butI don't want to mess with you, I
don't want to talk to you,right, but I think having that
deep understanding of youridentity in Christ and then
knowing the heart of Christ,which is that none should perish
but all should repent andreceive eternal life, I mean
(40:19):
that is the heart of God, and ifI can say, lord, give me that
heart for others, I think thatthat helps.
And then be mindful that heactually reached down to the
depths to save me and I don'tdeserve it and I don't deserve
it Absolutely.
I don't deserve it.
I mean you said it, tim.
I mean I sometimes stand up inthe public and go why?
It's crazy.
(40:39):
This has been a great experiencebeing here so far in El Paso,
and it was great in Idaho too.
I love the church group rightthere too, and it was growing.
But I sit there and go.
Lord, it's got to be, it's yourwork, because I know me and I
would screw it up.
You know I'm good at screwingthings up.
So thank you, lord, forcovering.
Speaker 3 (40:57):
Hey, last question I know I sent you a whole bunch
more, but this has been superfun.
This has been so such aculturally helpful conversation
and for a lot of leaders you'relike, well, this sounds simple
Living.
What we're talking about is notis not simple.
It's going to require the HolySpirit and the body of Christ
working well together.
So what are the top threevalues needed for pastors, staff
(41:25):
and members in congregations torelate well to one another?
What are those top?
Speaker 2 (41:27):
values for you, kirk, as you lead in the church.
It's got to sound similar towhat I said, from what I can
tell myself, but I reversed thema little bit.
I said, first of all, rest.
Rest in the finished work ofChrist.
If people can rest in thefinished work of Christ and who
they are in Jesus Christ, Ithink that that is, and it's
been a big journey for me.
Went to Israel in 2011, and Irealized that those who were
(41:49):
without Christ but wereIsraelites were so sure in their
identity of being God's people.
And here I was.
I was someone who had the HolySpirit dwelling in me, I
received the forgiveness ofChrist and I still was
struggling with who I was.
And so I think, resting in thefinished work of Christ I mean,
(42:09):
we're told in Hebrews to striveto enter that rest right.
And so I think, first andforemost, if we can help one
another, rest in the finishedwork of Christ and then, from
that, I think, we rejoice inwhat God is doing in our lives
personally, in the lives ofothers, in the hope that we have
.
Christ is risen.
He is risen.
(42:29):
Indeed, alleluia should not bejust during this Eastertide
season, right, this should bethe rhythm of the Christian.
And then, lastly, relax.
Let's just enjoy.
Let's relax and enjoy oneanother, enjoy what God is doing
.
And I think Psalm chapter 5says In the morning I make my
petitions to you, and then onetranslation says and I wait in
(42:53):
expectation.
And I think if we relax andwatch for what the Lord is doing
, I think that we can reallyenjoy together and celebrate
together and share storiestogether.
You know, church is easily atransactional event and it needs
to be transformational, and Ithink that when we come in we
(43:15):
just clock in and clock out.
That's not really theorganization that we're looking
for in the church.
We're looking for people togather together, to share life
together, to enjoy Jesustogether, because we know, we
know how it all ends and so weget that blessed hope of the
resurrection and eternal lifewith him.
And so I just think that weshould just rest, rejoice and
(43:38):
relax Love it Jack, closingcomment.
Speaker 4 (43:40):
Sabbath.
I think that's really what itboils down to.
I was just looking at a surveywe took as a team and we have
some work to do to really beintentional with our Sabbath
work, and that's on top ofalready being intentional to
some degree.
But I think a lot more needs tobe done, and I think what also
stood out to me is that seems tobe the norm for churches, that
(44:01):
all church workers arestruggling in their own context
to experience Sabbath forthemselves.
They've given so much ofthemselves for the sake of other
people that they've not giventhemselves permission to Sabbath
themselves, and so I thinkthat's probably maybe one way to
approach this is to rest inGod's provision and in the
identity that he gives you.
Speaker 3 (44:23):
And my big takeaway.
I don't know why this is, butrespect and honor outdo one
another in showing honor, and itgoes both ways for those that
are in leadership positions andthose that are sacrificially
serving on our serve teams andleading different groups.
And we're all just trying right.
(44:45):
And I think God looks at us,his disposition, it's like the
little toddler trying to findour way through, and he's like
oh, that's sweet and you'redoing good, son, daughter,
you're growing up.
But the disposition of thefather isn't dependent upon our
growth, it's dependent upon hisson, and he's well-pleased with
(45:07):
his son.
The father is, and obviouslytherefore, by faith, he's
well-pleased with us, and so Ilove it.
We can rest, rejoice and relaxin the presence, the presence of
God.
So good, kirk, if people wantto connect with you, how can
they do so?
Speaker 2 (45:19):
Yeah, sure, so you can.
Kirk at PPMHIorg, that'sPastors Positive Mental Health
Institute.
You just look that up onlineand find it there.
Online is also my cell phonenumber, but it's area code
530-306-0712.
I'd love to help yourorganization out and anyway I
(45:39):
can help build up pastors andchurch leaders so we can build
one another up in love.
That's just what I love to do.
Speaker 3 (45:45):
Yeah, it's so good.
I'm sure this is coming out inthe summer.
Pastor leader, while I'm onsabbatical, I hope you're
resting well In the rhythm ofthe church here.
The season of Pentecost, that'sa time we got a whole host of
proclaimers that get to bringGod's word in various settings.
You know, in our church, PraiseGod for that, and that allows
(46:06):
those who are kind of in thetrenches which hello all three
of us.
Right, we need those seasons ofSabbath, extended Sabbath, rest
, Praise, be to God, it's a goodday.
Go make it a great day.
This is lead time.
You are loved by Jesus.
Please like, subscribe, comment.
I won't be looking at any ofthese comments because I'm away.
Please comment, but I don'tthink there's anything
(46:26):
controversial that we eventalked about.
This is just good stuff.
Let's grow in our health asleaders and in the entire
movement which is the localchurch, bringing love and light
out into a dark and dying world.
Jesus loves you so very, verymuch.
Kirk, Jack.
What a joy.
Good job, guys, Peace.
God bless you.
Speaker 1 (46:41):
You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the
Unite Leadership Collective.
The ULC's mission is tocollaborate with the local
church to discover, develop anddeploy leaders through biblical
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Subscribe to our channel, thengo to theuniteleadershiporg to
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(47:03):
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This is Lead Time.
Speaker 3 (00:05):
Welcome to Lead Time, tim Allman, here with Jack
Kauberg.
It's a beautiful day to bealive, pray the joy of the
crucified and risen one.
We're recording this in Easterseason.
It is giving you a lot ofpassion, a lot of fuel to build
relationships, to multiplydisciples, to reach as many
people with the gospel aspossible in your local
congregation, in your home, inyour neighborhood, for sure.
(00:26):
That's why the local churchexists, which is to reach people
with the gospel through wordand sacrament.
Praise God, jack.
How are you doing, brother?
Speaker 4 (00:32):
Doing well, my friend .
It's a beautiful day here inArizona.
We're in the last final gaspsof nice weather before the heat
comes, so we're savoring it, andI'm also dealing with the
allergy consequences of it.
Yeah, if you hear anything,frog in my voice.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
I'm dealing with the same stuff.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
It is what it is Well , today we have Kirk Triplett.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
I've been a guest on his podcast, Positive Mental
Health of your Pastor podcast.
He's got a wealth of knowledgeto share with us.
He's a 27-year pastor,differing roles.
He's experienced the highs andlows of ministry, which is
inevitable for all of us.
He earned his doctorate inorganizational leadership, same
(01:16):
as myself, with the intent ofhelping the church, specifically
the leadership of the church.
From his research he'sdiscovered how a pastor's
positive mental healthinfluences church members.
He's created seminars,workshops for pastors, church
leaders and congregations, andthese resources offer pastors,
church leaders and members toolsthat encourage organizational
(01:39):
cooperation that builds a churchup in love.
He's got a book called Affirmed.
There it is Building thePositive Mental Health of your
Pastor.
It's a practical guide givingpeople tangible and intentional
tools to build leadership intheir congregation.
He is a new pastor at ZionLutheran Church in El Paso,
Texas.
Shout out to everybody there inEl Paso.
(01:59):
That's my former community.
Love that city for sure.
He's been married since 1991.
They have three adult childrenand four grandkids.
Kirk, how you doing, brother.
What a joy to be with you todayoh well, thanks so much, I'm
doing good.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
You know allergies or uh, you know, we're in kind of
the same neck of the woods, sortof, so the wind has been.
Uh, it's funny, I got to elpaso and then the weather kept
talking about dust events thatthey have in el pasoo, and so
it's quite apocalyptic at timeswhere you can't even see the
mountains across the, you know,across the street.
But no, it's been great beinghere.
(02:33):
Love, being at thiscongregation I feel like you
know we've been here for yearsis how it feels.
So just a really goodtransition, good people and so,
yeah, good to be here.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
Thanks, it's gonna be fun.
Let's talk about the topic thatyou love to talk about and we
do as well Organizational health.
How do you define a healthyorganization?
Let's start there, kirk.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Yeah, that's a.
That's a great question.
You know it's interesting thoseof us who have studied it.
Or there's no, there's noshortage of different tools and
assessments, and one andprocesses are really important.
I know Jack's kind of, fromwhat I've heard, a little more
of a process guy.
I'm not that guy.
I appreciate them and I thinkthey're important.
I'm a culture guy.
(03:15):
You know how do you createculture in that?
And I think it's important theyhave both.
And so when I was on vacationthis last week with my family,
my son's a pastor here in ElPaso as well, and he's eaten up
all these different leadershipthings.
And so you talk about thewidget assessment.
You know, are you a wonder?
(03:35):
Are you invention, are youdiscernment galvanizer enabler
or one who has tenacity?
And so he's trying to tell mewhat I am.
And you know, I think he'sright, one who has tenacity, and
so he's trying to tell me whatI am, and then you know, I think
he's right.
But the whole point is is I lookat organizations and I feel
that sometimes we can get socaught up in process and
assessment and titles that wemiss the big picture.
And so for me, what I woulddefine as a healthy organization
(03:58):
is one that has a clearmissional focus, and this is
even with outside the church too.
So years ago, I worked for Ithink I can say this Starbucks,
and I was a regional coffee guyfor Northern California, and I
used to do teach classes, and atthat time the mission statement
was to become the premierpurveyor of coffee, while
maintaining the compromisingprinciples as we grow.
(04:20):
So everything we did kind offiltered through this, and so I
always find it's reallyimportant that there's a clear
mission for any organization, sothat when you have ideas come
to the table, you look at them.
There might be great ideas, butdo they really fit the mission
of that organization?
So ours, obviously.
You know the church.
You go find mission statementseverywhere.
(04:42):
It's always love God, lovepeople, right, I mean, that's
kind of how it is, which isn'twrong and that's right, but go
make disciples is the missionthat God gave us, and so I think
the missional focus, though,also needs to have defined
expectation and outcomes,because I think sometimes we
come up with these missionstatements we can pick on love
(05:03):
God, love others, but what doesthat look like, right?
What's the expectation?
How does that practically workout in everyday organizational
life.
Back to my coffee example.
Everything was how do we becomethe premier purveyor of the
finest coffee in the world whilemaintaining our uncompromising
principles as we grow right?
How do we do that?
And so we filter everythingthrough that, and I think it's a
(05:24):
great plumb line for people inyour organization to go this is
who we are.
You know, christ Greenfield isnot Zion El Paso.
Some of it's contextual,obviously, which I'll get into
in a little bit with some of theother questions, but we look at
it.
We have to make sure that weand I think also when you look
at your mission of your healthyorganization be willing to
(05:44):
assess it every so often, bewilling to have a good team of
people and go is this who we are?
Because, especially in thechurch, dynamics change, people
pass away, people move, peoplecome into your congregation and
dynamics change.
Is this still the propermission for our current culture,
our current mix of people?
And so that's the number onefor a healthy organization.
(06:07):
I think also a culture ofcollaboration is really
important, which increasesindividual investment in the
mission of the organization.
And so one of the things I loveto do is cheer for people and to
kind of unleash them and sayyou know, hey, let's talk about
your ministry.
What does it look like?
How can I help?
(06:27):
How can I come alongside, howcan I help with direction?
But then, when we talk aboutsteps to do it, I want them to
feel empowered to go do it right.
And so a lot of times after Ihave conversations, people come
and say well, what do you thinkabout this?
I'm like great, love it, go forit.
I mean, you know most of it,because I want them to.
I want people in theorganization to feel that it's
(06:49):
their organization, it's theirchurch, it's not my church.
I mean, we know it's God'schurch, right, but when it's,
this is their church and this istheir community of people, how
can they serve it, how do theythe freedom to serve it in
creative ways without and I wantthem to, hopefully me, with the
(07:10):
elders and myself is that whenthey come up with something, all
we do is clap and say go for it, keep going, we love it right.
And that comes, too, fromrespect and worth of all
individuals.
And you know we see this in thechurch that Paul wrote to.
I think it's in the Corinthians.
You know, don't look at the toeas being something that's you
know it's very important to havethe toe.
(07:30):
You might cover it up, but it'svery important.
Everybody is very important inthe organization.
I always often tell the storywhen we talk about this my great
uncle.
We went to visit him years ago.
He was up in Redding, dunsmuir,california, above Redding.
And we get there and there's anote on the door that says Bud's
in the hospital.
He's long since gone.
But so we go to the hospitaland he was mowing his lawn and
(07:51):
he fell backwards and cut offhis big toe and half of his
second toe and he had to taketherapy to learn how to balance
and walk again.
And you wouldn't think, oh,it's just a big toe, big deal.
But that was such an importantaspect that he needed that.
(08:12):
And I think that's what theorganization to.
Those big toes, those ones thatyou cover up, are just as
important as as those of us whohave our face in front of people
all the time.
In fact, I would almost saythey're more important of the
stabilization of the body.
And so I think respect andworth.
And then I think the last thingfor a healthy organization.
You got clear, missional focus,a culture of collaboration,
respect and worth of allindividuals.
And the last thing would beconsistently asking what's next?
(08:36):
And I think that that gives youa culture of discovery, a
culture of expectation, aculture of how do we meet, how
does this organization meet theneeds of whatever context we're
in?
Or how do we continue to grow?
Because I think sometimes wejust can kind of say, oh, we're
good, we're good like this, andI think we find this in the
church.
(08:56):
Often you get a church that saysthat has 120 capacity in the
pews, right, and you're like, oh, we get to 100.
We're fine, we kind of feelfull.
Well, no, because we don't wantto entertain.
What does it look like to havea second service?
What does it look like to havean appropriate overflow?
What does it look like to serve?
And so I think it's alwaysgoing what's next?
(09:17):
And in the church context, howcan I serve our community, our
community, first and foremost,that calls this their home
church.
Where are they serving in thecommunity?
That's another thing I like tofind all the time.
Where are they serving in thecommunity?
How can we as a church getbehind what they're doing?
So I'm sure you have plenty ofthings to say so that was very
comprehensive kirk.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
It's like you've thought about this before and
I'm grateful for it hey, youtalked about let's go back to
missional focus, and then youdovetailed on expectations and
outcomes.
When I hear outcomes, I thinkobjectives, goals, right.
When I hear expectations, Ithink values.
And then I heard you kind ofdovetail down to respect.
(09:59):
I heard a differentiation.
I would differentiateorganizational values for us
it's jesus, bible, lutheran,leadership, community mission
right from behavioral values.
And I would couple then respectfor everyone's voice and that
that even kind of moves into wedo things together here, the
(10:20):
culture of of collaboration thatyou talked about.
Your your point number twoWould you equate expectations
with values?
And how do you differentiatevalues, behavioral values, from,
maybe, organizational values?
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Kirk, yeah, so now you're kind of talking
discipleship really is reallywhat it boils down to.
What does it look like to createdisciples in the church?
And so, obviously I think thereis, if that is part of your
missional value, which I thinkit should be for every church,
we're here to make disciples.
The Great Commission that doestransfer to some degree to
behavior, right, I mean you takein sinners who are saved by
(10:55):
grace and we are growing in thegrace and knowledge of our Lord
Jesus Christ, as the Holy Spiritis changing us moment by moment
from glory to glory into thevery image of Jesus Christ.
I like to look at my definitionof what the work of the Holy
Spirit does is the Holy Spiritis leading us and guiding us
into all truth while working thevery disposition of Christ into
(11:15):
us.
So that disposition piece itwould show forth in behavioral.
Now I think that the question isand maybe I'm not understanding
the question completely, butthe question is if the
organization expectation doesn'tmatch the behavioral
expectation and I think theykind of go hand in hand If your
(11:40):
job is and your mission is tocreate disciples and to make
great lovers of Jesus, thosepeople who share the good news,
who are on mission themselvesbecause we're ambassadors of
Christ and we're pleading withpeople to be reconciled to God
through Jesus Christ.
I think that if that's one ofthe main missions of the church
and that outcome, thatexpectation, should be seen
(12:03):
individually and collectively asa congregation.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
Yeah, it's very good, Jack.
Anything to add?
Speaker 4 (12:08):
Well, yeah, I think I just wrote this big manifesto
on the topic of mission, visionand value language and it was
kind of researching all of thebest thinking on these topics
and at a very high level youcraft a mission statement to
define why you exist.
And it's very important becauseevery single church can just I
(12:30):
mean like you could press theeasy button and say, well, we
follow the Great Commission, butthat's true for every church,
but every church has its contextand its community and its
unique challenges and its uniqueopportunities.
And so you have to flex intothat and say what makes us
unique in the Great Commissionand then write a mission
statement that reflects theuniqueness of your organization.
(12:53):
Just like we as individuals arepart of a body, congregations
are part of the body and they'rekind of filling in different
roles and reaching differentpeople.
So you have to write a missionstatement that reflects your
uniqueness right and like boldlyleans into that.
And then we have these value.
Well, I'm going to pause realquick there.
Then we have a vision statement, and I think what happens a
(13:16):
little bit with some of thevision language is we don't get
specific with it.
So we might say, hey, ourvision, it might be a shortened
version of our mission statementmultiply disciples or whatever.
In reality, you want to say,hey, we want to plant five
churches over the next 10 years.
That's a proper visionstatement.
(13:36):
So vision statements reallyought to be concrete and
actually give some definitionabout what we're pulling into.
And then your values languageare creating your guardrails,
both positive and negativeguardrails for you as you're
moving forward and leaning intoit.
So it's it's basically sayingthese are the, these are the
non-negotiables as we moveforward into this, into this
(13:58):
vision, into this mission.
Right, these things are notgoing to be compromised.
And a really great um, a reallygreat filter for those and this
can be a little bit harsh butyour value statements should be
held so passionately that you'rewilling to lose people over it.
Right.
If people said, no, you need toabandon this value or I'm
(14:20):
leaving, it's like, okay, we'llhelp you find another church
that fits you better.
Or I mean, ideally you wouldtry to disciple them to
understand that the importanceof that value, right, but if
that doesn't work, we're goingto lovingly help you find
another congregation where thatfits your values better.
Right, but it's held so deeplyhere that you're willing to lose
people over it.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
Yeah, that was a good , helpful summary, Jack.
Let's talk about your what'snext?
Human beings desperately need anext.
Human beings desperately need anext.
The status quo, a lack ofinertia, a lack of momentum, it
kills the human being.
I mean, just think,biologically, for us there's no
set it and forget it.
As it relates to our bodies,taking care of our bodies,
(15:03):
Either we're progressing orwe're regressing.
And the same is exactly truefor the local congregation and
the pastors, and this is moreart than it is science.
Right, the pastor's call is toI've said it before, Jack
disappoint people at a rate theycan handle.
Or when you sense, because youwill sense oh, we've arrived or
(15:25):
we completed.
Well, one we should celebrate.
I think we don't oftencelebrate wins enough.
We're always to the next.
But then we say and here's thenext hill.
Psychologically, it's neverabout arriving, it's about
reaching the pinnacle of onehill and seeing another hill in
the distance.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Anything more to say toward the necessity of next,
Kirk, yeah, so I think that it'sa weird tension that we find
ourselves in because weaccomplish something and we just
want to rest and enjoy it, butthen there's something that
drives us and I kind of look atit.
As you know, you eat a greatmeal and you can enjoy that for
(16:02):
a moment, but the reality isyou're going to want another
meal and you're going to try torecreate that meal.
And you realize the challengeis we try to recreate stuff that
God says I have something morefor you.
So when I was doing music fulltime at a large church in New
Mexico, I had one guy that keptcoming up and asking me for you
got to do this song.
(16:23):
You got this song and this songwas, like you know, in the
Jesus movement in the 70s and Iwasn't in the kumbaya too much,
was, like you know, in the Jesusmovement in the 70s and I
wasn't in the kumbaya too much.
Finally, I just said, fine, I'mgoing to do it Right.
So I did it.
And he came up to me afterwards.
He goes well, that didn't feelthe same and I said, exactly.
I said you're trying to create.
God met you in this Right.
God met you in that.
Great Praise the Lord, but nowhe has something better for you.
(16:44):
So you got to look forward, andI think that when we look at,
even when Jesus ascension, youknow they're looking up and why
are you doing?
Go do what he says Go do stuff.
You have things to do and weare created to do stuff, and I
think that that's one of theimages of God that he has placed
upon us uniquely is that welove to create, and so I think
(17:07):
that you know why.
You know, if you write a greatsong, why write more?
I wrote one great song, right,or I wrote a best sermon ever.
Why write more?
And it's like well, becausewe're our own worst critics too,
right?
We say, well, it wasn't thatgreat, absolutely.
You know.
I mean, you've probably beenthere, tim.
You've given what you thoughtwas a great sermon and no one
said anything to you, and you'relike what?
(17:28):
And then you thought youflopped and everyone's like, oh,
that was so great.
So that's why we know it's theHoly Spirit.
But the Holy Spirit is alwaysmoving us forward too, and so
when we think about the whatnext?
The Great Commission is not astat, it's not something that
just maintains static right.
We have to constantly moveforward.
And so I always tell people youknow, god didn't save you so
(17:48):
you can sit.
He saved you to send you.
And so you know why are youbeing saved?
Well, so that I can be withJesus.
So that's great, you'reforgiven, that's wonderful, he's
cleansed that all.
But now why has he left you here?
You know, if it was just aboutyou getting saved, then you'd be
gone, right.
No, he left you here because hehas stuff for you to do, and
Ephesians 2.10 says that rightthat we would do were his
(18:14):
workmanship, his work of art,that we would do those works
that he has prepared in advancefor us to walk in.
So when we think of what next,it's like okay, lord, what is
that next work that you'veprepared, the divine setup, I
don't have to really stressabout it, let me walk in it.
And so I think that if you'renot looking at what next, you're
becoming stagnant.
Running water is a greatexample.
Speaker 4 (18:32):
So Kirk a flip side of that, and this is like my own
sort of confession of areasthat I need to develop in.
I am so hyper focused on movingforward on things that I
absolutely will sometimesepically fail to celebrate the
wins that a ministry team hasachieved or the progress that's
been made, because I'm justconstantly looking forward all
(18:55):
the time and I think there'skind of like this both, and you
know, I have to be reminded, Ineed to remind myself, but I
also need to count on otherpeople to remind me.
Hey, let's celebrate.
Let's celebrate the wonderfulthings God has done, you know,
over the last six months, overthe last year, right Even this
current month, like be morepresent and not sacrifice being
(19:16):
future focused, but also be alittle bit more present focused
as well.
Any thoughts on that?
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Yeah, no, that's good .
I have a good example.
I think I have a good example.
I had written this Christmasprogram for the large church.
We had about 1,800 people showup to it more than they've ever
had and it was a lot of work.
And afterwards the seniorpastor comes up and he goes well
, that was good, but let's takeit to the next level next year.
And I remember sitting theregoing okay, so it wasn't good.
(19:43):
And so that became a jokeactually among the.
You know, yeah, and so thatbecame a joke actually among the
.
The assistant pastors to him wasalways well, he, let's take it
to the next level.
We'd have big events.
I mean, we did a mud bog.
We did a mud bog fundraiser,made 40 grand and had 4 000
people show up to it.
And that was the comment.
(20:04):
After all, this day of work andit's really not just the day of
work, right was okay.
Well, next year, let's take itto the next level.
And I think that to your point,jack, is that, yeah, work, and
it's really not just the day ofwork, right, it was okay.
Well, next year, let's take itto the next level.
And I think that to your point,jack, is.
I think it's important becausehere's the challenge you do
something and a lot of timesyou're like, oh great, it's over
and you leave it right, andthere's a moment of debrief.
That's really important whatwent well, what can we do better
(20:25):
next time.
But I think in that debrief youpause for a little bit and say,
man, let's just celebrate whathappened here and look for the
things that maybe you wouldn'tlook for.
So, like for VBS out in Idaho,when I was there, we changed it
to Bible camp because nobodywants to go to school during
vacation.
But you know, the big win forme over the years was, as we
(20:47):
continue to build it was ourlast year there we had almost as
many adult volunteers as we didkids who attended it, and to me
that was the win because and Isaid that to him isn't this
great?
Look, look at what, what we getto do together and the
fellowship that we had together,and that's the win.
You could go well, man, youknow we had this many kids and
(21:08):
we also had this many adultsmake great.
We were like a one to one and ahalf ratio, I mean adult to kid,
and and so I'm like that is abig win and and so I think,
pausing and being appropriate inyour pause uh, you know, and
Jack, you would have to decidethat for you Um, and maybe Tim
can help you with that it's like, hey, can we just wait a couple
of days before we look at thenext thing, you know, because
you don't want to just set andgo.
(21:30):
Oh, that was great.
You know, we had like I've hadyeah, I agree, I've had like 10
baptisms.
Speaker 4 (21:35):
I don't think I could be capable of doing that.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
But I think intentionality right.
It sounds like you have to beintentional to go wait.
Let me and I would even saythis is me personally sometimes
write those wins and talk topeople about those wins, so that
you do intentionally take thetime, because I think you're
wired similarly to probably allof us on this podcast is okay
that's great.
Now the next thing.
Speaker 4 (21:58):
What's next?
Speaker 3 (21:59):
Next level.
Our brains are so unique andfascinating.
Unfortunately, our brains arebroken and one of the products
of sin is we fly like the salmonof Capistrana to negativity,
you know, and then we justimmerse ourselves in it.
(22:19):
And I'm speaking fromexperience.
This last Easter we had ourfirst Easter in our gym and one
of the services this isn't tothrow out, it was absolutely
packed.
I don't even't to throw out, itwas absolutely packed.
I don't even need to throw outthe number Absolutely packed.
Team did so much work to make itso special.
There were people coming outand said that was unbelievable.
Just ah, da, da, da, da.
One leader comes out and saidwell, I could hardly stay in.
(22:44):
That music was way too loud.
And two people behind me theywalked out because they just
couldn't do it anymore.
They were like in theireighties or whatever you know.
They just couldn't handle it.
Like 99% of the comments werevery, very positive best worship
experience in.
They could possibly imagine thetransformation of the gym, blah
, blah, blah.
But guess where my brain goes?
I can't believe those twopeople.
(23:04):
They, they were like you'realways going to have that.
If you're risking anything,leader, there's always going to
be the potential that you're notgoing to please everybody.
So why are we even doing that?
And I got to say one otherthing why are we even looking at
?
This is why I didn't even dropthe number of people why are you
even looking at other churchesor other?
And it's so, so toxic to thehuman brain.
(23:25):
Social media today you can seeoh why can't we do this?
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blahthat you can get a culture of
negativity where you disrespectthe people on the ground that
are working very, very hard.
And you're always looking at atthe next.
And I had to fight against it,jack.
You're fighting against it andjust celebrate and sit in the
celebration longer than younormally, than you normally
(23:46):
think you should, especially ifthat's your tendency always
looking at what's next, jack.
Speaker 4 (23:50):
One of the traps that that can cause, and I try to
combat this too.
I do believe in ourcontemporary context people want
a high energy kind of boomierkind of experience and that's
what people think of as a greatexperience.
But you're going to have like2% that are very vocal about how
(24:10):
they don't like that, and ifyou end up mixing to that or
modifying everything toaccommodate that 2%, now you've
kind of like neglected the 98%that was really appreciating the
higher energy kind ofexperience.
And so we have to kind ofreally and it requires a lot of
discipline and grit to kind ofthink through that and to try
(24:31):
and kind of hold those commentsthat way.
Speaker 3 (24:34):
It's sad, it's sad because I don't know that we
create the feedback loops forpeople to give positive comments
.
Speaker 4 (24:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
Like the net promoter score.
We're going to look at it, buthow?
How prone are we to look at thenegative comments long before
we look at all the commentsabout?
Speaker 4 (24:50):
what they like, immediately, zoom in on it.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
We immediately hyper-focus on it.
So I think we need to createbetter feedback loops for people
, because people are not goingto come out and tell you all the
time that was spectacular.
You know you should keep doingthis, the level of volume or
whatever the organ or the like.
They're just not going to do itunless you seek it out.
So the net promoter score isvery, very helpful toward that
(25:14):
rhythm as we land this plan andtransition Kirk.
Final comments on healthyculture and really emphasizing a
celebration in your community.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Yeah, well, I think that you tap on something that
is part of what I do is that,first of all, pastors and
leaders typically are extremelyinsecure people, and so you know
, as much as outgoing as we canbe, as connected as we can be
with people, we want people tolike us, and so that 2% you know
(25:43):
that, we know, and you said it,you said it so well.
We know that we're not going toplease everybody, but yet, for
some reason, we still try to it.
So well, tim, we know thatwe're not going to please
everybody, but yet, for somereason, we still try to, and so
I think that what's importantwhen we talk about celebration
is one of the things that thetools that I give pastors and
church leadership is a simpleassessment tool.
I encourage pastors to do it ona weekly basis, to go okay, how
(26:04):
and I asked this at the end ofalmost all my podcasts is, how
did someone make you smile inthe last two weeks?
Because I think sometimes weagain, we perseverate on that
negative instead of go wait asecond.
That's not the real picture.
It's not the real picture ofeverybody.
And we could go on about musicand stuff, because I dealt with
that a lot being in acontemporary context and
(26:25):
cranking it up.
Man, if you get clarity, youcan run 98 deci decibels and
it's beautiful thing if it'sclear anyway.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
So that's a different .
Speaker 2 (26:34):
But the whole point is is that I think that that, um
, if you are intentional and youhave people are intentional
about saying, well, let's justcelebrate one wet.
Well, you know things are goingto go wrong, I mean.
So I did a baby baptism theother day and the baby blew out
two christening or baptismaloutfits.
(26:54):
Right and praise the Lord, theybrought a third right and I was
just watching reruns of theOffice, and when Jim and Pam get
their baby, they're in at-shirt because she blew it out
too, and it's like what's theimportant thing is, they were
there, they brought their childto the barn and we celebrated
what God was doing.
That's the big win.
(27:15):
It's not all these otherdistractions that happen.
And so I think that it's reallyimportant that we, as leaders,
are intentional about pointingpeople to what's going well and
calling it out, and I think,individually too, when we go to
people and say you know, Ireally appreciate what you do
here.
There's a book I can't rememberthe guy's name, wayne something,
(27:37):
a church guy in Hawaii yearsago, and he would go into the
children's ministry during partsof the service while they're
doing music or whatnot, andthere was a gal changing a
diaper and he goes what are youdoing?
And she goes well, I'm changingthe diaper for this.
He goes no, you're not.
You're providing a place whereparents can feel that their
child is safe, so that they canhear from the Lord, and so I
(27:59):
think that you know just how doyou frame it.
How are you?
Every work has purpose, every,everything that somebody does.
And volunteers, let me tell youvolunteers, they want to do
things correctly, and so how dowe, how do we reinforce that?
How do we celebrate whatthey're doing?
And so I think for pastors andleaders, it's really, really
(28:19):
important that you could lookfor every service, thanking
somebody for what they're doingand telling them hey, good job,
I really appreciate that.
You know there's hand outbullets and say I really
appreciate you doing this.
Um, this is really great.
You're greeting people, so, um,I hope that kind of that's good
, that's good.
Speaker 3 (28:36):
And a shout out to you mentioned insecure pastors
and leaders and, and uh, I thinkthat I think that can be true.
Hopefully we're growing atougher skin and a softer heart
as we are in this for a whilelonger.
But I'll tell you what, ifyou're, there's a lot of lay
leaders that listen to this.
A word of encouragement,specific word of encouragement
(29:00):
to a pastor A pastor's call isvery, very difficult.
Consistent messages, et cetera.
Consistent messages, et cetera.
But a word of specificencouragement from a lay leader
who's a trusted friend, partner,ally, that goes a long, long
way.
So I would encourage you, writeletters, say specific words of
(29:21):
encouragement, build one anotherup, do it more so and give
honor where honor is due, bothfor volunteer serve team members
, as well as those who are inpaid leadership roles in the
church.
All right, let's pivot here alittle bit.
Kirk, go back.
I mean, you've been at thisthing now in the local church
for a long time, almost threedecades.
Right, if you could go back andtell your you know new church
(29:44):
worker one, two year out, selfwords of wisdom, what would you
tell them?
And even if you want to tellstories of what you didn't see
coming, that now you see comingin a different way and you
handle situations in the churchdifferently.
Now, kirk, let's tell thatstory.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
Yeah.
So I think that I'll answer acouple of the questions here.
You know you come into ministryand you know you just want to
serve the Lord and you justthink, oh, it's going to be so
great to serve the Lord, it'sgoing to be wonderful,
everyone's going to love me andyou lead with your heart.
I mean, I like that tougherskin, softer hearts.
(30:21):
You never want to lose thatsoft heart because it will get
stepped on, and I think thatthat's why it's important that
you have some tools in your bagto remember that.
So I grew up in the church.
So what's great is a lot ofstuff in the church doesn't
blindside me.
I've seen a lot growing up andit still didn't deter me from
(30:44):
ministry.
So that's great.
But I remember one time I justmoved my family to New Mexico to
take this music position of alarge 2,000-person church and we
were getting ready forChristmas and I gathered a bunch
of people for a choir and thisolder lady stood up.
She goes.
Well, no one else is willing tosay this, but I'm going to say
this she goes.
The Holy Spirit left when youarrived and so it got quiet in
(31:10):
that room really fast.
That's a strong accusation, shewas, and so it got quiet in that
room really fast.
That's a strong accusation, andso, you know, I said well, no
one is forcing you to be here,you know if that's how you feel,
but I mean, how do you respondto that, right?
And so I think that you have togo.
Okay, there are some things inministry that are going to
(31:31):
happen, and so, if I were tolook back, three words that I
would tell myself is, first ofall, relax, rest and rejoice.
And when I say relax, it's nottied to your point, jack, we
always go.
What's next?
What's next?
I feel like we put thispressure on ourselves that we've
got to do things, because theministry hinges upon whether or
(31:54):
not we do it correctly.
And so I think that relax isthe first thing.
Relax in the Holy Spirit.
It's the Holy Spirit's work.
He's doing it.
Not that I want to be a slothand I want to, you know, but
it's a long game.
I think that there is a senseof urgency.
Right, people are going to hell, and we want to reach them, and
that's a real thing.
But at the same time, I'm sothankful God is not dependent
(32:20):
upon me to save others.
He's the one that does thesaving.
And so I need to be faithful inmy context and just enjoy it,
relax, and so rest is importantand just enjoy it.
Relax and so rest is important.
I'm still terrible at this.
I teach this.
I teach pastors about how torest.
I am terrible at it and, justbeing honest, I rarely.
(32:41):
I'm not good at taking fulldays off and I, you know I was
on vacation and studying, youknow, my sermon every day and
answering emails and all thisstuff.
But some of that's how I'mwired.
We don't need to get into that.
But I think that and thenrejoice, because I think to what
we've been talking about thisdovetails really well is that I
(33:03):
put that pressure on myself, I'mnot relaxing, so therefore I'm
not resting, because I feel likeif I rest, then I'm feeling
guilty that I'm not doingsomething and then I miss to
rejoice in what God is actuallydoing, and so that is kind of my
you know, and I would say thatfor any pastor is to relax, and
(33:26):
then you know, tied with that isenjoy what you're doing.
I remember leading music oneSunday and seeing who wasn't
there.
I'm standing up there strummingmy guitar, singing a song
praising Jesus, and I'm lookingat who's not there.
They haven't been here for twoweeks.
They call it their home churchand I remember just being mad.
I don't want to.
Well, I'll say this.
I was pissed off, can I saythat?
And I remember the Holy Spiritreally worked with me.
(33:46):
He goes.
You know you were spending somuch of your energy being upset
with those who aren't here thatyou're missing out on
ministering to those who arehere.
And so you know, just be in themoment and relax, trust the
Lord for those other people Doyour part.
So I mean, I think that kind ofanswers your question.
Yeah, it does.
Speaker 3 (34:04):
It does.
Speaker 4 (34:04):
Go ahead, jack.
Well, it's interesting.
You can do everything right andit may not work out because God
has other plans.
And you can do everything rightand it may not work out because
God has other plans.
And you can do everything wrongand it may work out because God
has other plans.
And so that is like theoverlaying truth of everything.
And at the same time this isthe Lutherans holding things in
(34:26):
tension thing we're still calledinto ministry, to be zealous
with ministry and to stewardthings really really well.
Both things are true at thesame time.
I think it's really about, like,how do we see ourselves truly
in that story?
Right?
Do we see ourselves asstewarding and depending on God,
or do we see ourselves as, no,it's all on us, right, and I
(34:48):
think that's where the imbalance, the imbalance can be Right.
Right, and I think that's wherethe imbalance, the imbalance
can be Right, and you might havean imbalance.
That might be well, I'm noteven going to exercise
stewardship here because it'sall God and so I'm not.
I'm just going to sit back anddo nothing, right, so, like I
think you could be imbalanced ineither direction on that.
I think that's kind of mytakeaway on that is that we do
(35:14):
have these vocations.
We are invited to join Jesus onhis mission to steward
resources and assets really well, to think hard about leading
well in the ministry, and at thesame time God's got his own
plans that may or may not alignwith what we're doing, and we
have to find a way, withhumility, to submit ourselves to
that and find peace and comfortand joy in it.
Speaker 3 (35:29):
Well, the only Go ahead, Kirk Go ahead.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Sorry, tim, I think context is everything going back
to mission and things like that, and I appreciate Tim not
saying the number for the thatwe were in the gym, because I
think the challenge is that wehave different contexts all over
the place.
If I'm in a rural town of 7,000that is 98% Mormon, can I
(35:54):
really have the expectations toplant five churches in the next
two years, or whatever that is?
Or can I, do I really have theexpectation to grow the church X
amount and so we have to bereally important.
I remember going to I was in asmall church at the time and I
went to a worship conference andall, all the big dogs are there
, right, they got paid musiciansand they're, and I'm like how
(36:15):
do I take that, how do I learnsomething from that and take it
back to my context?
Because I I'd be frustrated ifI try to reproduce that.
It's impossible.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
Um and so, yeah, I think, uh, that was some good
words there hey, the only way Ihave found and the Spirit has
kind of led me and continues tolead and shape me to not compare
, not compete.
Pastors love to compete.
Oh, my goodness, I was just.
I'm trying to keep from goingdown a track.
I was with a whole host ofpastors and there were lines in
(36:45):
my the way I relate to humansthat were crossed as these
pastors just kind of ribbed itone another quite a bit.
I love all of you guys, it'sgreat, but it was a fascinating
sociological experience withthese alpha males in a room and
the only way I've found tomaintain joy in the moment is
(37:06):
gratitude.
Right now, right for thismoment.
So I'm grateful.
There's, like I don't know, acouple dozen moms out here with
all these little preschoolersrunning around our courtyard
right now in preparation forMother's Day on a Sunday Sunday.
Like can we train our brains bythe Spirit's power to be
grateful for every person thatshows up?
(37:28):
Like no one's forcing people toshow up, they're voluntarily
getting ready, getting in theircar or whatever and coming to
church.
So I don't care if it's 50 or500 or whatever.
I can't.
I can't believe like you showedup today and because you showed
up, god's going to show up andshow off and he's going to meet
you right where you're at.
So do we have that kind ofgratitude that flows from
(37:52):
whatever?
And this is theological right?
What do I deserve?
I don't deserve any of this.
I don't deserve today.
I don't deserve this leadershipposition.
I don't deserve to have peoplehonor me.
I deserve hell and wrath andcondemnation, judgment from God
and from others, because I'm apoor, wretched, miserable sinner
.
So everything now in my newidentity in Christ is gravy man.
(38:12):
It's icing on the cake.
I have won, I've arrived,because Christ says I'm enough
just as I am right now.
My identity is secure in him.
And so like competing andcomparing and living with this
kind of like anxiousness, Idon't really have any kind of
appetite for that, because I'm anew creation in Christ.
Now I do, because my sin naturecontinually attacks me.
(38:34):
Oh, wretched man that I am.
But I've been saved by Christ,the crucified and risen one you
know.
So that should lead us aspastors to have just a different
posture, a more open, I wouldsay playful, adventurous,
curious posture that's filledwith gratitude.
Anything more to add on to that?
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Oh well, I mean, I think it goes back to really
where we started.
You know, a healthyorganization, we're talking
about a healthy church, it'sworth of all individuals.
Because you're saying thatperson that came, you know Jesus
wants to meet them.
And that humility of mind,because I think sometimes if we
were honest and if you hit,because I think sometimes if we
were honest and if you hit onsomething very important, if
(39:14):
we're honest, um, we strugglewith imposter syndrome, um,
because if people really knew,um, they wouldn't listen to me.
I mean, right, that's what youthink, um, but I think there's a
healthy balance to go.
Lord, this is your work.
Because, um, I know, like Ialways tell people why am I a
pastor?
Because I'm so weak.
God had to put me into thechurch so that I would stay, you
(39:36):
know, on focus, becauseotherwise, you know, I'd
probably be in jail or dead.
But that's a whole differentconversation.
But I think that it's importantfor us to go.
You know, man, christ died forevery single person that walks
in our doors or onto ourproperty and I think that goes
out into the communityEverywhere I go.
(39:56):
Christ died for that person.
And it's hard because sometimesthere's people that you're like
I know Christ died for you, butI don't want to mess with you, I
don't want to talk to you,right, but I think having that
deep understanding of youridentity in Christ and then
knowing the heart of Christ,which is that none should perish
but all should repent andreceive eternal life, I mean
(40:19):
that is the heart of God, and ifI can say, lord, give me that
heart for others, I think thatthat helps.
And then be mindful that heactually reached down to the
depths to save me and I don'tdeserve it and I don't deserve
it Absolutely.
I don't deserve it.
I mean you said it, tim.
I mean I sometimes stand up inthe public and go why?
It's crazy.
(40:39):
This has been a great experiencebeing here so far in El Paso,
and it was great in Idaho too.
I love the church group rightthere too, and it was growing.
But I sit there and go.
Lord, it's got to be, it's yourwork, because I know me and I
would screw it up.
You know I'm good at screwingthings up.
So thank you, lord, forcovering.
Speaker 3 (40:57):
Hey, last question I know I sent you a whole bunch
more, but this has been superfun.
This has been so such aculturally helpful conversation
and for a lot of leaders you'relike, well, this sounds simple
Living.
What we're talking about is notis not simple.
It's going to require the HolySpirit and the body of Christ
working well together.
So what are the top threevalues needed for pastors, staff
(41:25):
and members in congregations torelate well to one another?
What are those top?
Speaker 2 (41:27):
values for you, kirk, as you lead in the church.
It's got to sound similar towhat I said, from what I can
tell myself, but I reversed thema little bit.
I said, first of all, rest.
Rest in the finished work ofChrist.
If people can rest in thefinished work of Christ and who
they are in Jesus Christ, Ithink that that is, and it's
been a big journey for me.
Went to Israel in 2011, and Irealized that those who were
(41:49):
without Christ but wereIsraelites were so sure in their
identity of being God's people.
And here I was.
I was someone who had the HolySpirit dwelling in me, I
received the forgiveness ofChrist and I still was
struggling with who I was.
And so I think, resting in thefinished work of Christ I mean,
(42:09):
we're told in Hebrews to striveto enter that rest right.
And so I think, first andforemost, if we can help one
another, rest in the finishedwork of Christ and then, from
that, I think, we rejoice inwhat God is doing in our lives
personally, in the lives ofothers, in the hope that we have
.
Christ is risen.
He is risen.
(42:29):
Indeed, alleluia should not bejust during this Eastertide
season, right, this should bethe rhythm of the Christian.
And then, lastly, relax.
Let's just enjoy.
Let's relax and enjoy oneanother, enjoy what God is doing
.
And I think Psalm chapter 5says In the morning I make my
petitions to you, and then onetranslation says and I wait in
(42:53):
expectation.
And I think if we relax andwatch for what the Lord is doing
, I think that we can reallyenjoy together and celebrate
together and share storiestogether.
You know, church is easily atransactional event and it needs
to be transformational, and Ithink that when we come in we
(43:15):
just clock in and clock out.
That's not really theorganization that we're looking
for in the church.
We're looking for people togather together, to share life
together, to enjoy Jesustogether, because we know, we
know how it all ends and so weget that blessed hope of the
resurrection and eternal lifewith him.
And so I just think that weshould just rest, rejoice and
(43:38):
relax Love it Jack, closingcomment.
Speaker 4 (43:40):
Sabbath.
I think that's really what itboils down to.
I was just looking at a surveywe took as a team and we have
some work to do to really beintentional with our Sabbath
work, and that's on top ofalready being intentional to
some degree.
But I think a lot more needs tobe done, and I think what also
stood out to me is that seems tobe the norm for churches, that
(44:01):
all church workers arestruggling in their own context
to experience Sabbath forthemselves.
They've given so much ofthemselves for the sake of other
people that they've not giventhemselves permission to Sabbath
themselves, and so I thinkthat's probably maybe one way to
approach this is to rest inGod's provision and in the
identity that he gives you.
Speaker 3 (44:23):
And my big takeaway.
I don't know why this is, butrespect and honor outdo one
another in showing honor, and itgoes both ways for those that
are in leadership positions andthose that are sacrificially
serving on our serve teams andleading different groups.
And we're all just trying right.
(44:45):
And I think God looks at us,his disposition, it's like the
little toddler trying to findour way through, and he's like
oh, that's sweet and you'redoing good, son, daughter,
you're growing up.
But the disposition of thefather isn't dependent upon our
growth, it's dependent upon hisson, and he's well-pleased with
(45:07):
his son.
The father is, and obviouslytherefore, by faith, he's
well-pleased with us, and so Ilove it.
We can rest, rejoice and relaxin the presence, the presence of
God.
So good, kirk, if people wantto connect with you, how can
they do so?
Speaker 2 (45:19):
Yeah, sure, so you can.
Kirk at PPMHIorg, that'sPastors Positive Mental Health
Institute.
You just look that up onlineand find it there.
Online is also my cell phonenumber, but it's area code
530-306-0712.
I'd love to help yourorganization out and anyway I
(45:39):
can help build up pastors andchurch leaders so we can build
one another up in love.
That's just what I love to do.
Speaker 3 (45:45):
Yeah, it's so good.
I'm sure this is coming out inthe summer.
Pastor leader, while I'm onsabbatical, I hope you're
resting well In the rhythm ofthe church here.
The season of Pentecost, that'sa time we got a whole host of
proclaimers that get to bringGod's word in various settings.
You know, in our church, PraiseGod for that, and that allows
(46:06):
those who are kind of in thetrenches which hello all three
of us.
Right, we need those seasons ofSabbath, extended Sabbath, rest
, Praise, be to God, it's a goodday.
Go make it a great day.
This is lead time.
You are loved by Jesus.
Please like, subscribe, comment.
I won't be looking at any ofthese comments because I'm away.
Please comment, but I don'tthink there's anything
(46:26):
controversial that we eventalked about.
This is just good stuff.
Let's grow in our health asleaders and in the entire
movement which is the localchurch, bringing love and light
out into a dark and dying world.
Jesus loves you so very, verymuch.
Kirk, Jack.
What a joy.
Good job, guys, Peace.
God bless you.
Speaker 1 (46:41):
You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the
Unite Leadership Collective.
The ULC's mission is tocollaborate with the local
church to discover, develop anddeploy leaders through biblical
Lutheran doctrine and innovativemethods To partner with us in
this gospel message.
Subscribe to our channel, thengo to theuniteleadershiporg to
create your free login forexclusive material and resources
(47:03):
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.
Thanks for listening and staytuned for next week's episode.
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