August 5, 2025 • 49 mins
If you care about the future of the LCMS, you won’t want to miss this one.
🔔 Save Lead Time to your library for real talk about leading in the LCMS today. Your perspective matters, let's have discussion that honors Christ!
As the LCMS heads into another round of district and national conventions, big questions loom: Who actually holds influence in shaping our Synod’s future? Pastor Tim Ahlman sits down with Emily Pacyga and Josh Salzberg for a behind-the-scenes look at overtures, resolutions, and the politics of convention floor committees.
From lay delegate engagement to the missing voices of commissioned ministers, from “omnibus” rejections to open hearings, this candid conversation wrestles with participation, representation, and whether the LCMS truly welcomes diverse perspectives.
Whether you’re a seasoned delegate, a curious layperson, or someone who’s never heard the word “overture” before, this episode pulls back the curtain on how decisions are made—and how YOU can have a seat at the table.
📌 Topics include:
Why many LCMS members don’t understand (or use) their full voting power
How overtures get killed in “omnibus” before ever being discussed
The politics of floor committees and representation
Ideas for giving commissioned ministers a real voice
Building coalitions for meaningful change in the LCMS
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is Lead Time.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Welcome to Lead Time Podcast Tim Allman.
Here, jack Calberg has the dayoff.
Today we're talking about we'reheading into convention season
in the LCMS.
We've got district conferences,conventions that are taking
place, and then next summer wewill be gathering together in
July in Phoenix, arizona.
Wow, it's going to be hot forthe 2026 LCMS convention, and so
(00:32):
today we're going to be talkingabout overtures, resolutions
and really to get behind thescenes of what that process
looks like.
And so today my conversationpartners are Josh Salzberg and
Emily Pasiga, and let me tellyou first about Josh.
He's a screenwriter and editorliving in LA.
Born and raised in Missouri.
Josh is a lifelong LCMSLutheran graduate of Lutheran
(00:52):
schools, current volunteerexecutive director at First
Lutheran of Culver City andPalms out in LA so we're in the
same district in 2020.
He co-founded Lutherans forRacial Justice LRJ, a grassroots
coalition committed tofostering multi-ethnic church
and school cultures as theypursue equity, justice and
healing in the LCMS.
In Josh's free time, heexplores the city with his kids
(01:17):
and his spouse, sarah.
How many kids do you have?
Two?
Speaker 3 (01:19):
kids nine and seven.
Nine and seven, oh, that's sogood.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Those are precious years, man, and his spouse so
good.
His spouse, sarah, is a Hebrewscripture and Old Testament
teacher at Orange Lutheran HighSchool.
Go Orange, love that, love thatfaith community there.
Emily, let me tell you abouther.
Emily Fusiga is the executivedirector at Tabor Church in
Chicago.
She went to the convention.
(01:44):
This is going to shape some ofour conversation.
She was just saying she went tothe LCMS convention about 10
years ago.
I was at the same one and therewere, as she shares, men who
were lobbying to condemn at thetime just to put a timestamp on
that, to condemn Concordia,portland.
And she was like what's goingon with the church body that has
(02:05):
all these condemning thingstoward one another?
We may have some room forgrowth.
She is a pastor's daughter inthe LCMS and I can't wait for
you to hear a little bit more ofher story.
So maybe we just start there.
Emily, tell me the story ofkind of why would you, as a
pastor's daughter, get engagedin the LCMS as it relates toward
(02:26):
the political engine which isthe LCMS?
Could you tell that story,emily?
Thanks for being with me today.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
I would love to Thanks for having me Well as a
pastor's child, which I thinkmost of us want to stay as far
away from the church as humanlypossible, and I literally said I
would never work for a church,never be involved in the church
in the way, seeing all the good,bad and the in-between.
But I know that God called meto be here and I heard him say
(02:56):
you do it while praying.
So I'm like okay, god, and whenyou feel that move, like you
had said, when I was atconvention about a decade ago,
it was when things were goingwild at Portland and I was
amazed to hear the language, thenegative language, coming out
(03:17):
of our church body.
And from that point on I reallymade it a point to continue to
be involved, continue toencourage other people to be
involved.
I've educated Laity over theyears on how to do all of this
and just to continue to showcasewhat our church is for versus
constantly what it's against.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Yeah, Thank you, and we'll get into the details here.
Josh, why is this a big topicfor you?
Speaker 3 (03:42):
Well, meanwhile, god specifically told me to get out
of the LC, to not get involvedwith this, but my wife's a
Lutheran school teacher and ourkids need the insurance.
So here I'm kidding, I'm joking.
I love it.
I do have a kid homesick today,though, so we appreciate the
great health insurance that theyhave through their Lutheran
school.
Yeah, I'm a, you know, as yousaid, lifelong Lutheran.
(04:04):
I feel like I got the best ofwhatever the LCMS has to offer
in terms of went to Lutheranschools, had the best experience
, had people that from teachersto leaders in the LCMS because I
was in St Louis, you knowencouraged me both as a as a
student, as a church volunteerand then also as a filmmaker.
(04:27):
That's how I got intofilmmaking.
I would not have the career Ihave if people from top down in
the LCMS hadn't encouraged me,supported me, gave me
opportunities.
So for me, this is all about Iwant everybody to experience the
best of what the LCMS can be,and I know that's not the case
for everybody and we're allresponsible for that.
(04:49):
I think that's my big headline.
As we get into the conversationtoday, we're going to be like
saying some, like you know, talkabout the challenges or
whatever.
For me, these critiques justaren't just about people in
leadership.
It's about Emily and I, who arevolunteer executive directors,
and trying to navigate this aswell.
It's our responsibility.
(05:09):
I get paid a little bit.
Oh, wait a second.
Now we need to talk about this.
Speaker 4 (05:16):
Okay, okay.
Well, that's for offline.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
Well, that's for offline.
We'll talk more about that, butanyways, yeah, my big headline
is to encourage people to getinvolved, because this is your
church, this is our church.
Uh, and if you've got, uh anissue, if you want to see
something changed, if you wantto see it, uh, you know, your
churches, your schools reachmore people.
Uh, you know, get involved.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
So what's been your experience at both district and
synod conventions?
Which ones have you been at?
I've been at the last threenational conventions, so tell a
little bit of that story, josh.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
Yeah, absolutely.
So.
I'll be the fresh-faced newbieto all of this world.
The last national conventionwas my first one.
I had not been to districtconvention before.
I'm a lay delegate at ourdistrict convention here in the
Pacific Southwest this year, soI will be there for that, so
that'll be my first one there.
But really I got involvedbecause, as a part of Lutherans
(06:11):
for Racial Justice, there was agroup that had created a great
overture to encourage a studyaround multi-ethnic ministry
ethnic ministry and the spoileralert here is that it ended up
passing.
It's the largest multi-ethnicministry study to be conducted
in the LCMS ever, which is great, and we can talk more about
(06:32):
that as we get into it.
But that process was basicallyhearing about how that had
passed in a district, how thisoverture had been written, and
then figuring out okay, cool,how can we now get regular
people in the LCMS to hear aboutthis stuff?
Because I'm sure, as you guyshave experienced you know,
there's no, there's no easy wayto get the word out about how
(06:55):
this process works, how to getinvolved, what overtures are
going on.
I'm sorry I'm saying the wordoverture.
Three years ago I don't think Iknew what that meant.
Should we explain?
Speaker 2 (07:05):
overture.
Why don't we do that?
Let's start with what in theworld is an overture, Josh, and
then we'll go to Emily.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
Yeah, absolutely Well , emily may have a better
technical description for me,but I mean, in short, it's a
formal proposal for either adistrict convention or a synod
convention that is going toguide synod policies for either
theology, for practice, foradministration.
So this is everything from howvoting takes place in at
(07:34):
convention, you know, changingbylaws, amending bylaws, to
theological statements, toresearch yeah, it can kind of be
anything.
And the overture is a proposalthat's like a.
You know, there's whereas kindof the setup.
Here's the basis for what we'reabout to call for, you know,
whereas we believe this or thisis true, and then be it resolved
(07:56):
.
Here are the action items, andit's a good thing to keep in
mind, because sometimes it'seasy to get caught up in all the
wording of everything, but inthe end there's a number of
action items, yeah, yeah.
And so the last thing on it isjust as the overtures then go
through this process, whichwe'll get more into, there's
submitting, there's review,there's floor committees,
there's discussion, there'svoting.
But you know, once it's broughtto the floor, it's a resolution
(08:18):
and if it gets approved, nowthat is, you know, added into
either to the bylaws or into,you know, the calls for it's an
official call for a study orwhatever it might be, yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Anything to add there , Emily?
No.
Speaker 4 (08:34):
It's very it's a very confusing process to begin.
Josh and I have led a couple ofZooms on trying to teach people
about it and there are a lot ofcongregations said we have a
convention, we can go and I waslike, yeah, you can go.
Congregation said we have aconvention, we can go, and I was
like, yeah, you can go.
You got to, you got to see ifyou can be volunteered to go,
and there's, and then it getsmore complicated with.
Every church is different inhow their bylaws and how they
(08:54):
vote people in to even go toconvention and how they are able
to submit overtures.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
You're going to say something.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
Well, just again the encouragement and we'll get into
specifics of how it works.
But, aside from all the details, like if you are a lay person
as we're talking about thisstuff you know and want to get
involved, like the encouragementis cool, talk to your pastor.
Figure out who the circuitcircuits are in your, who the
congregations are in yourcircuit, that's your kind of
(09:20):
local network of LCMS churches.
Figure out how maybe you couldbe, you know, a lay delegate If
you're a pastor.
I know pastors are familiarwith the process and don't want
to get involved.
But it's like this is the way,you know, change happens and
that was my big.
We were talking about myexperience at convention.
My big takeaway was look, it waswild.
You know, it's in some waysdepressing because it's
(09:41):
bureaucracy and who wants tolike go through.
It's a tedious process and allof that, and sometimes the
things you're hoping for don'tget passed and all these
different things.
I'm up till 2 am like rewriting, you know, overtures and what
am I going to say on the floorand all of those things.
But what I took away from itwas well, you know, if we could
get 50 people here, some ofthese votes would have changed,
(10:02):
and so for me that's my bigthing is, so many people have
great ideas, want to give input,and so if you're a lay delegate
, go for it.
If you're a pastor, encouragelay people, and if you're a
church worker, you don't get avote.
I'm mostly kidding around,having fun.
You really don't get a vote,but you can still participate
(10:23):
and that's something we can talkabout too.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Yeah.
So, what's working in theprocess, what could use some
improvement?
I'll say, from my perspective,what could use some improvement
is higher participation in ourlay leaders.
Understanding the process, like, your voice at the district and
at the national level carriesthe same weight as the pastor's
(10:48):
voice and we need to hear fromyou what's working, what's not,
what else would you add to that?
What's working in the overtureprocess?
Because I would love to see, Iwould love to see more overtures
coming from lay leaders, laymen and women who are letting
their voice be heard aboutwhat's working or not working in
the synod, in our processes, inour life together as the church
.
Anything more to say there,josh, and then we'll go to Emily
(11:10):
.
Speaker 3 (11:10):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean real quick.
You mentioned, you know,getting more lay people involved
.
This is my superpower.
I have no.
My expertise for whatever thatis I don't have any has really
only come, though, from talkingto so many congregations over
the past five years throughLutheran racial justice, so many
Lutheran school administrators,teachers, whatever.
It's just been a part of thething.
(11:31):
So I've kind of got a surveynow going of what the national
SMS like, and my superpower isthat I am not other than my tie
to you know my kids have healthinsurance through my, my wife's
job.
Tie to you know my kids havehealth insurance through my
wife's job.
Other than that, you know, I'mnot bound by a salary, you know,
or the same oversight that arostered church worker is, and
(11:52):
so I guess that's anencouragement to lay people of I
think a lot of us are havemaybe a fresh perspective
because we're not bound by thesame kind of thinking that you
know.
When you're a pastor or rosterchurch worker, you have to kind
of think you have more of thesystem in your mind.
I got off track of yourquestion.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
Your question was it's OK With the overture
process.
What's working.
What could use more improvement?
Emily, and then we'll come back.
Josh, it's good man, perfectLove that.
Speaker 4 (12:22):
Josh is throwing me off too.
I think the um, the issue withthe overture, is that people
just don't know they exist.
They don't know how to do it.
It's very overwhelming, um andto to Josh's point, to encourage
people to know that they havethe exact same voice and the
exact same vote.
I mean, we were formed as acongregations up synod, so the
(12:46):
power is not within the fewpeople that can be there and
participate, and there's so manychurches that don't even
participate and don't even go totheir district conventions, and
I'd love to see that change andsee every congregation with a
voice.
But there's just there's.
Yeah, it's just getting peopleinvolved, empowering them.
But the writing of the overtureprocess, I think, needs some
(13:08):
massive improvement so thatpeople can feel like they can do
it themselves too.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
Yeah, and, and there's a lot of you know,
knowing that this is a lesson Ilearned from convention, like
respecting understanding thebylaws and like, I think, as a
little bit of a rebel, I want tofight about that and be like I
don't care about bylaws.
But that's how I mean.
It's the same way withgovernment.
It's like you got to knowwhat's on the books in order to
to get the work done.
So that's part of the challengeis just, yeah, knowing, knowing
(13:36):
the rules, knowing the bylaws,knowing the process.
I think what does work and we'rekind of speaking to this
already is your voice is heard,you know, especially when
there's numbers and it's notthat as difficult as it might
sound, but that's really where Ithink the secret is is getting
people out in numbers, gettingcongregations out in numbers,
(13:57):
and this is something thatworked about the multi-ethnic
ministry study, which is theonly reason I'm referencing it
so much is that I think therewas something like a dozen
congregations, you know, inaddition to some circuits and
districts, that submitted theoverture to Senate.
So when the handbook comes outwhere they print the overtures
that have been submitted, you'reseeing, oh, this isn't just you
know, josh, you know, sendingin some random overture.
(14:20):
There's a big call for this anda big movement, and to me
that's what really does workabout it.
The challenges you know.
I already mentioned rosteredworkers don't have a vote.
Why that's a meaning outside ofpastors.
Yeah, so you know what you thinkof as church workers, your DCEs
(14:42):
, your Lutheran school teachers,teachers.
I understand the challengesaround that in terms of you know
the argument is that well, ifwe give church workers a vote,
then that's going to take awayfrom the lay delegate vote.
That's kind of usually theconversation that happens there
and for me it's still a problem.
We got to figure out how tosolve because teachers
(15:04):
especially with my spouse beinga teacher the stuff that gets
decided in convention, this iswhat teachers are dealing with
every day, because any questionthat you might get from that one
difficult person in yourcongregation she's got three
kids asking every day orwhatever policy issue you might
be thinking about, it'shappening at school every day.
And I think we're reallymissing out on a huge voice from
(15:29):
teachers, dces, et cetera, thatwe really need to be a part of
this process, not just asadvisory delegates which they
can be and speak at the mic andthose kinds of things but really
to be able to weigh in becauseon the back end, they're the
ones that have to carry out thedecisions that are made.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Well, we've been.
This is the second podcastthat's brought this episode up,
this topic up.
So what are some ideas do youthink to balance out the lay and
the commission minister voice?
Do you have any like overturerecommendations that folks are
even writing right now?
Could get their heads wrappedaround, josh Emily.
Speaker 4 (16:04):
We've all been tabled .
Speaker 3 (16:09):
Well, emily in the northern Illinois districtled.
Well gone to Omnibus.
Well, Emily in the NorthernIllinois district, that is where
that went there.
There's been other districts.
I don't know have they made itthrough any?
There's a couple overtures.
Speaker 4 (16:19):
It's a synodical bylaw issue so it needs to be
rewritten, to change the bylaws,not just say we want this to
happen, but it has to.
The part of the resolutionshave to be to change bylaws and
from what I hear it's a lot morecomplicated.
But I have found that Control-For Command-F, depending on what
computer you're on, to gothrough bylaws of the Synod, to
(16:42):
find keywords, to go backwardsto do research to say why can't
this go through every time?
And I know this just happenedin the Southeast District too
over last weekend.
It was sent to Omnibus alsobecause of the way it was worded
.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
And I might need your help in reminding me here, but
the couple proposals that havebeen put forward in this round
have been about adding in a laydelegate vote was one option.
Is that correct?
Yeah, to have two lay delegatevotes in addition to a pastoral
delegate vote, in addition tothe added rostered church worker
(17:18):
vote.
Yeah, to create a balance there.
I think that's a great option.
Can you remind me what theother one was?
I should know this.
Speaker 4 (17:25):
It was exchanging the pastoral vote for any called
worker, so it was a DCE.
It was keeping the same number,it was keeping two votes per
congregation but changing thepastoral to it could be a DCE or
a deaconess or another ministeryeah.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
Either way, I think it's a great option.
And look, something else that'spart of this is the reality is,
most statistically, most of ourteachers are women and I do
think we're missing a lot of yes, a woman as a lay delegate can
go, but I still think we'remissing a lot of those voices in
there, you know, especiallywhen we roll out teachers.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Yep.
So Emily talk about the processof writing an overture.
Do we have templates that areavailable, Because I think the
process with all of the whereasis and everything can feel so
kind of overwhelming If someonehas another topic that they'd
like to bring up, regardless ofcommission.
Minister, there are many other,many other topics Do you have
(18:24):
in?
Is there kind of aclearinghouse of where people
can see some other templates ofovertures if they've got some
ideas heading into district andSenate convention?
Speaker 4 (18:32):
District.
Each district has a template.
Senate has a template.
None of them are terribly.
I mean, they're user friendlyin the way that they say this is
the way it should look.
You need to have whereas comma.
You need to have resolved comma.
You need to use the after asemicolon, all of that.
But I've seen overtures thatare three lines long.
I've seen overtures that arethree pages long.
(18:54):
So it bless you.
It really depends on whatyou're trying to get across.
There should always be biblicalbacking in it.
If you can reference the Bible,reference Jesus, that's a plus.
The Bible reference Jesus,that's a plus.
(19:16):
They love those.
So there are templates.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
How you go about writing.
It really depends on the author.
I think I'll throw out there, Ithink, the prior approval
process overture I know you'vetalked about on this podcast, so
I hope I'm not rehashing toomuch.
I think that's a great template, just in terms of like, if you
want to see a well, regardlessof if you agree with it or not
or whatever, although I thinkeverybody should look at it and
(19:48):
push it forward.
In my fired up, I think it'seasy to just like hit the
keyboard and start typing awayand that prior approval process
one is just.
It's worded perfectly.
The theology is great.
The whole logic is laid outreally well, I think.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
So let's talk about district to synod, what that
process looks like.
You've got a whole bunch ofovertures that go to a district
and then a lot of them get movedon.
If they get voted on in theaffirmative, they get moved on
toward a respective floorcommittee who's going to be
looking at all hosts ofovertures that have come in,
some from individuals, some fromcongregations, some from
(20:25):
circuits, many from districts,from districts, right?
I mean those are kind of thefour main overture authorship
groups, right, that end upsending it, sending it on.
And then you mentioned a wordthat some people are probably
unfamiliar with Emily omnibus.
What does omnibus mean?
As a floor committee gets allof these respective overtures
Right, because there's a lot ofthings that people care about
(20:46):
Prior approval, commission,minister formation, all of that
right, and there's going to be alot of overtures coming from
our 35 districts around thosetopics.
So what does omnibus mean?
And am I clarify, in yourperspective, if I miss anything
regarding what happens fromdistrict to Senate?
Speaker 4 (21:01):
Well, you'll have to clarify for me too if I'm
missing anything.
If it is omnibus, there arethree different reasons, but I
cannot think of the third one.
One is it's been discussedbefore, one is it's against our
bylaws or constitution, and thenit goes to the secretary.
And the other one, I think, iswe just don't like it, something
(21:22):
like that, we don't want todiscuss this.
So omnibus just means that thefloor committee is not going to
take a look at it.
So you have the opportunity inthe beginning of convention to
pull overtures or resolutionsout of omnibus.
My last I like Josh, my nationalconvention was the.
(21:42):
My first one was the last one,two, two years ago now, and the
very first thing out of Omnibuswas tried to pull out women's
suffrage.
And I'm like this has beendiscussed.
We're not pulling out women'ssuffrage.
So there are things that theysay have been discussed, things
that we're not going to discuss.
But people still have anopportunity.
Delegates still have anopportunity to pull it out of
(22:03):
Omnibus on the convention floorwhen things go to Omnibus.
There's a lot of things that goto Omnibus that have just been
discussed before.
Like in our district, the sameoverture is submitted every
single time that has to do withend of life stuff and they're
like.
We've already discussed this,we have an answer for this, we
go to the Constitution.
(22:23):
So what was the rest of yourquestion?
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Oh, that's good, Josh , anything to add?
Thank you, emily, that wasexcellent.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
Yeah, and some of that stuff is like, you know,
we're kind of like sometimesmaking jokes or being cynical
about the process, but some ofit is like because all of this,
if you're a lay delegate, you'rejust some person trying to
figure out this process is maybeyour first or second convention
, you know whatever it is.
So you is maybe your first orsecond convention, you know
whatever it is, so you're notremembering that 20 years ago
this was passed.
So there is some practicalityof like, yeah, that's what the
(22:52):
committees are here for, to likeknow what's been discussed
before what's been decided,those kind of things.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
so, uh, one of the major engines, I guess, for how
national, national um floorcommittees get set is the
president of synod, and I'm sureit's in consult with the
Presidium and others get tochoose who they invite onto
(23:18):
those floor committees.
And that is no insignificantthing, right that that you get
to shape.
You may know somebody for acase in point, like I don't talk
about it anymore, but like Iwas not invited onto any floor
committee for for I was actuallyon nominations about six years
(23:38):
ago I was on a floor committeeand that was a very simple
assignment, um, and so I I wasnot subsequently invited onto a
pastoral formation committee oranything or anything like that,
because they know I have, I havestrong opinions.
One of my, one of my, I think,struggles is do we have
(24:01):
appropriate synod widerepresentation from districts,
men and women, pastor and andcommission minister on some of
these floor committees and Iwould say generally on,
especially on a number of themore heated conversations, I
don't know that there's beenadequate representation across
(24:22):
the Senate and I think thatleads to some some frustration
on who are on those respectivefloor committees, because one
voice in a room could say Idon't know that we fully
discussed X issue.
So I think we should refrain atthis point from pulling this
overture and moving it directlyinto omnibus.
Maybe there's new informationthat we need today, but I don't
(24:43):
know.
I don't know that dissent hasbeen welcomed or not.
Dissent, just difference ofopinion on some of the more
controversial issues today infloor committee.
So who gets to put the leaderonto a floor committee at the
national level?
That's a lot of that's cast thedie in the direction that a
number of the overtures and thenresolutions are going to go.
(25:03):
Josh, anything more to saythere?
Speaker 3 (25:05):
Yeah, and I want to talk a bit about the other
aspect of floor committee, whichis the opportunity to speak to
the floor committees, which ispart of the process.
But to your point, yes, I meanthat's one of the main
challenges is how floorcommittees are assigned and
there's going to be, you know, abias there.
I think that's, in general, oneof the challenges to keep in
(25:27):
mind with this whole thing iswe're encouraging you to get
involved, but also the realityis there's a bias towards the
status quo and that's just thereality of, like any kind of big
ship, like this big institutionthat you're trying to change,
always a balance bias for thestatus quo.
But I think that's one of thebiggest challenges, because a
floor committee, yeah, can throwout anything that they don't
(25:48):
want to talk about, and then itcan kind of be a little more,
like you're saying, give less ofa portrait of the full, full
Senate as it's handpicked.
So I'm with you there To becharitable.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
I don't know what the answer is to that.
I don't know how meaning, Idon't know how broad of a group
should be involved to choose afloor committee.
How complex would that actuallybe?
I mean so I'm not.
This is nothing againstPresident Harrison or any
president.
I mean, the system is what thesystem is and it just produces
over time what has been produced.
(26:21):
And unfortunately, courage, Ithink, would be to say I'll have
someone who has a slightdifference of opinion in that
room to make sure representation, even if some others would
maybe bristle at thatappointment, josh, but I'm not
the one that understands.
I'm not in that room to makethose decisions, so I'm
commenting from an outsider'sperspective, but I pray for more
(26:43):
openness to include all voicesin Senate, josh.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
Yeah well, I'm sorry, emily, you can jump in here too
, but I guess to put the onusback on us, because that's all
we can control, right, is that Ithink we need to acknowledge
this is all politics.
You know, we have to say thisis politics, it's how it works.
If you want to get change inany institution, from your local
school, you know, up to thislevel, up to government,
(27:07):
whatever it is, it's, it's allpolitics.
And so you got to make winningarguments and you got to build
coalitions, and so the way toget, you know, to the point
where floor committees, um, youknow, there is, uh, more
fullness of the church bodyrepresented.
Uh, it means we got toparticipate and put the pressure
on for that to happen.
Um, so, again, you can, you canspeak to, you know, you have
this opportunity to speak tofloor committees.
(27:28):
Uh, emily and I I think that'swhere we forged a little bit of
our uh, uh, friendship was inthat process, cause we had come
prepared reading some of theovertures and I I didn't realize
how prepared I need to be,because you then get in the room
with this opportunity to speakand we're flipping through and
we're going.
Well, here's they're sayingsomething about public education
here and we care about.
I've got my kids are inLutheran school we still care
(27:50):
about public education and thatimpacts a big part of our
congregation, and so now we'regoing up and speaking about you
know about that.
And then now we're switching toa totally new topic.
Now we're talking about youknow how congregations, you know
, provide votes or whatever, andso it's a good opportunity, but
it takes.
You know, provide votes orwhatever, and so it's a good
opportunity, but it takes.
(28:10):
You know.
It's a great opportunity tojust share your voice in this
way, and that's the only way wecan put the pressure on, I think
, to make some changes.
Speaker 4 (28:16):
Clarify what you're talking about.
Is that you're talking aboutopen hearings?
That is?
Speaker 3 (28:20):
free Sorry.
Speaker 4 (28:22):
No, no.
So I just want to say beforenational convention and before
your district convention thereare open hearings.
Some districts make it veryeasy to attend open hearings.
Some districts make it veryhard to attend open hearings.
But that's the only time thatyou have to speak to the group
before it hits the floor.
So in my district, in the NIDdistrict, it was at 8 am on a
(28:47):
Saturday before an hour, awayfrom all of us.
So a group of us went and wereable to get some wording change
that we thought was very notshining our best light, as the
LCMS and the committee was veryunderstanding of it.
They changed some of it andthen the wording was different
(29:10):
when we showed up to convention.
So, getting getting involved inopen hearing and anybody can go
to an open hearing, you do notneed said.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
on a Saturday, right for your district in the
southeastern district, theystarted doing Zoom floor
committee hearings and sothere's a little more access
there.
Apparently, a lot of peopleattended those floor committees,
so I think that's.
That's one of the challengestoo is, you know, not always
easy to have.
The time Schedules tend to beno offense, to tend to be built
around a pastor schedule, not anormal work life schedule.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
So yeah, sorry, Sorry I don't know what else to say.
So what are your last questionhere?
And then we'll end with some,some good stuff.
If there's one main, I guess,systemic change that you would
love to see to the, at least anopenness to see in the process,
what would that?
(30:14):
What would that be?
From district to and it'scomplex from district to
national, what would that be?
And then I got, and then I gotone more, one more kind of
focused question along thoselines.
So one, one systemic changethat would, and it could be that
we want to see more lay leadersinvolved at every aspect of it.
That would be mine.
Would you add anything to that,josh?
Speaker 3 (30:34):
Yeah, I mean I think we kind of covered it.
But the things we can controlin the immediate future is more
lay leaders involved.
I know it's not easy but, yeah,get involved with overtures at
your circuit level, get toconventions or just reach out
and we can talk about it.
The things we can't necessarilyhave direct control over in the
immediate future is the rosterchurch worker vote.
(30:54):
I think that would make thebiggest difference, which is why
it's difficult to change,because it would make a
difference.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
Yes, anything to add there, emily.
Speaker 4 (31:01):
I would say from a district level, if districts
would come out and I plan onhopefully talking to our DP
about this but just encouragingand creating a space where
people can ask questions andbecause this is a very people
are afraid to ask questions.
They're like this looks big andwild and hard.
It's not.
You just need to know what therules are.
(31:21):
And if there is a more brokendown version of how to write an
overture, I think that wouldencourage more laity to be
involved also.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
That's so good.
You mentioned commissionministers.
Are there any other issues thatthe Synod needs to address at
district and national convention?
Any other topics that you wantto see?
Man, we need to work on this,josh first and then Emily.
Speaker 3 (31:45):
Yeah, I mean this is a conversation.
I mean there's so many this isanother podcast, uh, so we'll
try to handle it right here.
Um, you know, communityengagement, community organizing
, all the things around that.
I think there are some thingsthat are in place that that put
up, uh, some barriers, but Ithink any way we can encourage
(32:05):
congregations to be partneringwith the community community
that, to me, has made thebiggest difference for us on a
congregational level.
Our pastor has just been soinvolved and our whole
congregation has got involvedwith efforts that are happening
in the community.
And going to the community andsaying, hey, where can we
support what you're alreadydoing as opposed to and I'll
(32:27):
admit, you know, a number ofyears ago my thing was okay how
do we get people onto our campus, how do we start a program, how
do we start a thing?
And we've really started toshift to this partnering with
the community focus and I thinkany way to encourage that I
think would be would be great,Right, emily?
Speaker 2 (32:45):
love that.
Speaker 4 (32:45):
Ditto.
I mean, josh and I are both invery urban settings, so it's I
don't want to say easier for usto say there's a lot more
community involvement.
I guess I'll take that back.
The community needs Jesus andthey see churches as this
institution and we need to showthem that we are people who are
loving Jesus and being the handsand feet of Jesus, versus
(33:07):
telling them what we're notabout.
So that's what?
Yeah, just I would echo whatJosh said with community
involvement, just loving on yourneighbors.
Speaker 3 (33:16):
And I'll be specific and you can edit this out later,
tim, if you want.
But to get specific about ittoo, look, obviously I'm
invested in, you know, lutheranracial justice and multi-ethnic
ministry.
In that way, the study that gotpassed hopefully it turns out
well.
We don't have control over thatpart of it other than writing
emails to encourage as manyvoices to be a part of that
(33:36):
process as possible.
But either way, the idea wasthat that's the first step to
figuring out how to diagnosesome of the challenges and the
problems for multi-ethnicministry so that we can better
partner with Black leaders,multi-ethnic leaders, both
within the LCMS and in ourcommunities.
So I think that's a big thing.
And another thing that I justreally care about, because I
(33:57):
think it's happening on theschool level and maybe we only
talk about this in doctrinalways or congregational ways some
of the time is just we have tofigure out how to better serve
the LGBTQ students in ourschools, in our congregations
and communities.
And that is not me making atheological statement, uh, that
is me saying wherever you falluh on, you know scripture,
theology, whatever, becausethere is a diversity of opinion.
(34:18):
I know it's on the booksdoctrinally, but just the
reality of where our, how bigour church body is.
Wherever you fall on that, uh,we have to figure out how to
better serve, better meet thesestudents in particular, and so,
yeah, those are just a couple ofspecific things that I'd love
to see before.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
That's good.
Well, as Lutherans, we shouldbe able to kindly, courageously,
say two things at the same timeas it relates to that topic
that God's intention is for menand women and the marriage
relationship is the foundationof society, raising kids to fear
and love the Lord.
And those that are not in thatsort of a relationship are
(35:01):
created in the image of God andworthy of dignity and respect
and need to hear the gospel ofJesus Christ and need to see a
church that is I don't have toagree with all of your lifestyle
choices to let you know thatyou're loved by Jesus.
And and I think as LutheransMark Mark Schultz, my friend,
has been down this path in hisministry that that we we just
(35:26):
need to do better in agreeing onwhat we agree on and then
recognizing it really gets downto context, because I think many
of our urban centers, our urbanchurches, are going to and my
first five years was in a muchmore of an urban community the
LGBTQ conversation and kids,especially in the T, in the
transgender community, kids thathave, you know, walked a road
(35:49):
and feel like is the church evenfor me, is my pastor open to
hearing my story?
And when people hear, likeover-emphasis on story.
That doesn't mean because I fulltransparency, my congregation
is largely Trump supporters.
Right, I saw a lot of thestruggles with and now it just
(36:11):
got political, didn't it Now alot of the struggles with
immigration.
We're an Arizona community andso needing to do a better job to
shore up our borders.
But I think I could say thatand, at the same time, say this
is a congregation where you canbelong here, no matter where you
fall, even on the politicalspectrum, and this was super
hard, man, the last twoelections have been super hard
(36:32):
to walk this line.
But I feel as a faith communityhere all I can control is
Christ Greenfield and what comesout of our pulpit.
We let people know you belonghere.
We stand on biblical truth andwhere there is difference of
opinion regarding moral andlifestyle, et cetera
multicultural, multi-ethnic wemust grow in terms of having
(36:54):
arms wide open and I'll justsince I'm on this, I just got to
keep going because Jesuswelcomed everyone.
Every person's story mattersGood, bad, ugly, the brokenness.
Nothing was surprising orshocking to Jesus.
So I think, as we think aboutthe kids, the young people and
older people, but a lot of ourkids who have gone down an
(37:15):
ideological path which I do notthink, long-term, is helpful for
them.
They still are worthy of loveand care and compassion by the
local church.
Will we welcome them?
Set judgment aside, look atthem as a human being who is in
need of love and care, and Jesuswould meet and care for them
long before he would judge them.
(37:35):
As I see Jesus judging, judgyJesus, it's much more along the
pharisaical line than it isalong the immoral line.
When people came to Jesus, theywere transformed.
Go and leave your life of sin,but I do not condemn you, and I
think that we have a pharisaicaltendency in the LCMS that
(37:57):
lovingly needs to be challenged,because who among us are
without sin?
We desperately need the mercyand grace of Jesus.
Emily, and then Josh on this.
Thanks for letting me just goon a little bit of a rant.
Speaker 3 (38:08):
Oh no, thanks for doing that.
I didn't mean to add that.
Okay, Josh, Well.
I'll say, since we're modeling,hey, we can have conversations
and disagree I didn't agree witheverything you said there, but
I really respect what you had tosay and appreciate it Just in
terms of yeah, I think we havesome differences opinions on
whether or not certain lifechoices are beneficial or not.
(38:33):
That's cool.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
Hey, let's model it.
Let's model it.
What did I say that youdisagree with, and how can we
work toward unity?
Speaker 3 (38:39):
Well.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
I disagree with, but maybe you would say it in a
different way.
Speaker 3 (38:43):
No, no, I think it's cool.
I think this is a biggerconversation about what.
What does.
How does sexuality and genderwork?
And I don't know if that'swithin the scope of this podcast
, but what I will say is, eitherway, I think something that
we're missing and again I'mincluding myself in this, this
is, you know, our responsibilityhere is how do we start having
(39:03):
conversations about applicationand opening up that conversation
, for instance, to talk about aless controversial subject,
abortion.
Somebody could, you know, be ahardliner in terms of here's
life begins in conception,here's where it's at.
This is what I believe.
I'm 100 percent here and alsogo.
(39:23):
I don't agree with the thatthere's only one civic policy,
that criminalizing abortion isthe way to address this issue.
Right, like both things couldexist At the same time.
You could also say I don'tthink life begins at conception,
and yet abortion should becriminalized across the board.
And so those are.
I don't know why we can't havemore conversation.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
Nuance man.
Speaker 3 (39:44):
Yeah, around the application, and I'm saying this
because I know that pastorshave gotten trouble for speaking
about nuance, about theapplication, how policies live
out in the real world, and I go.
That doesn't the theology I get.
If somebody says I don't agreewith the LCMS doctrine, the
scriptural interpretation here,well I get it.
(40:04):
But if we're talking aboutpolitical policy, civic policy,
why isn't this up forconversation in a public way?
We're all doing this privately.
Yeah, I just don't.
That's something I'd like tofigure out how to navigate more.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
You'd think the church would be better at
nuanced conversation.
I would, I would hope.
I would hope because,especially in our Lutheran
context, because it is tensionfilled, right, law and gospel,
and I mean that is the center.
I mentioned CFW Walther.
As I'm heading to my sabbaticalthis summer, I'm doing a deep
dive into the life and times ofCFW Walther and one of his main
(40:40):
teachings law gospel book.
It's right here on my on myshelf.
The law always accuses and thereis no ability for me to
pridefully position myself asmore righteous based on what
I've done than another personwho is being accused in their
own way by the law of their sin.
(41:02):
And so, yeah, we should becomemore comfortable and maybe I
have you back on where we canhave a public conversation
around the LGBTQ conversationand even I think we have a lot
to learn with one another.
And I think I think our contextI've made this case on a number
of different topics, but ourcontext and our experience with
(41:22):
real people in real placesreally shapes the way we see the
world.
I would hope that we couldagree.
We could agree on that.
So this go ahead, josh.
Close that down.
Speaker 3 (41:31):
And then I got one.
Now I'm worried.
Did it read like I'm anti LGBTQ?
Is that how this?
That came out when I said Ijust think so.
Speaker 4 (41:38):
Okay, I don't think so.
Speaker 3 (41:40):
I would say I'll just put it this way that I in
general these conversations aregoing to my biases towards
marginalized care for thatcommunity, yeah, and compassion
there.
So in case, that was unclear.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
No, no, that was definitely not.
Speaker 4 (41:53):
Absolutely what our church is struggling with the
most is the where law and gospelis applied and how it's being
applied and how.
When I say we're praying for,you know, immigrants and asylum
seekers or whatever, andsomebody goes, I'm only praying
for them if they came herelegally and it's like where are
you being the hands and feet ofJesus?
Where are you being the handsand feet of Jesus with all of
(42:14):
these topics?
Where are you being the handsand feet of Jesus in your
overture writing?
Speaker 2 (42:17):
Yeah, amen, hey, let's close with something good.
Tell me one story of God atwork in your local context where
you're like, wow, if otherpeople got a little bit of Jesus
, holy Spirit-inspired passionout of this story, man, so many
people could be reached with thegospel.
We'll start with you first,emily.
Any stories of just beauty andawe and wonder of God at work in
(42:38):
your Chicago community.
Speaker 4 (42:39):
I get to see in a small congregation.
I love that I can see the HolySpirit working immediately in
front of us, working immediatelyin front of us and I know you
can see it in bigger ones.
But we're give you the mostrecent instance is with food
pantry.
We know that we are in an areathat really needs a food pantry.
(43:00):
Really there's a lot.
It's a food desert.
There's a lot of need.
So we went into looking intofood pantry.
Realized that it was.
We were way over our heads withthat.
I told pastor.
I was like we can't do this.
We have three people that aregoing to be here.
We can't move 5,000 pounds ofwhatever food once a week.
And the next day after we werelike okay, we can't do this, we
don't know, we're going to prayon it.
(43:20):
The next day we get a phonecall saying can you do boxed
food pantry?
I was like, yes, we can.
Yes, we can Look at God.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
So that was just one of those things where he really
just followed through showed ushow we can do it in our small
congregation.
Speaker 3 (43:42):
And it was awesome and it's going really well.
Josh Jesus story yeah, talkedabout it a little bit but when
we made the turn a few years agoin our congregation to focus on
partnering with the community,we kind of gave our pastor
permission to spend a goodamount of his time just in the
community and we have a smallerchurch, so I know it's easier
for us to do than maybe somecongregations and he ended up
(44:04):
getting elected to theneighborhood council and really
formed a lot of relationshipsand built trust there and
through that we ended up gettingconnected with local organizers
.
That especially around tourismindustry, which is largely, you
know, immigrant industry.
Here in Los Angeles we'retalking hotel workers, the
(44:24):
airport, we got the Olympicscoming up.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
Yeah, 28.
Speaker 3 (44:29):
Yeah dependent on them and they've been promised
pay raises and health benefitsthat have never come through
from the city.
And so these community partnersstarted saying, hey, would your
congregation consider publiclyspeaking up for this?
And so we did as a congregation, and I got to give most of the
credit to our pastor, to MattWaite, who has really shown up.
(44:51):
I've gone to a couple ofmeetings and those kinds of
things, but nowhere near whathe's done, going to City Hall,
speaking at City Hall, speakingas a pastor, and I think there's
a perception about, you know,secular world, especially maybe
Los Angeles, where it's like, oh, it must be hard to be a
Christian.
We've had the oppositeexperience.
Where they're going, hey, wouldyou come pray with us, would
(45:12):
you?
They say like, hey, we'd loveit if you'd be openly a pastor,
wear your collar, like we don'twant to.
You know, we want you torepresent, like who you are, and
those kind of things.
And it's been a really coolexperience.
And the good news on the otherside of that is that it's it's
going to pass, it's down to thelast vote is happening this week
(45:33):
and so actual, like a changehappened there.
So that's been cool.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
Hey, I really appreciate you both.
Thank you for your, yourpassion for speaking, for aiding
the church, and I'm praying formore and more unity, for more
and more voices to be heard inthe LCMS.
It takes, as our districtpresident, josh, says, it takes
all types of churches to reachall types of people and we need
(45:55):
all types of lay leaders,commission leaders to let their
voice be heard and pastors tolovingly invite all of the
priesthood, of all believers, tobe with us.
I'm not to close my closingcomment.
I don't spend and you've got aday job, josh, so do you Emily.
(46:16):
It's not like a lot of our timegets spent thinking about these
things.
I think the perception becausesometimes we have more of these
political oriented is like I'mlike fixated on the bureaucracy
of the LCMS, like no, I'mleaving this going to a campus
meeting talking about how wereach people with the gospel of
Jesus Christ.
I'm just a learner.
I've been at the table tryingto get to microphones, but that
is like a very, very, very smallpercentage of my head and heart
(46:38):
space, so just let it be known.
I'm sure the same is for youboth, but that little bit spread
out among many different voicesover time could make a change,
Josh, your thoughts.
Speaker 3 (46:48):
Yeah, that's exactly it.
It's Emily and I calling eachother as we're like getting kids
to the car and into an officeor doing like whatever we have
to like.
It's those conversations thatadd up over months.
Hey, I'll squeeze in a Zoomhere like this.
It's getting the scraps of ourtime, but yeah, hopefully it all
adds up to some ripple effectfor sure.
Closing word.
Emily.
Speaker 4 (47:07):
I just say amen to that.
It is something that in themoment, can feel like it's a lot
, especially leading up toconvention.
And then it's a lot ofpreparatory work and, like Josh
said, we showed up at theconvention and we were like it's
, it's a great networkingopportunity to meet other
(47:31):
like-minded.
I mean, we had a Zoom this weekon Bible study and somebody
goes I didn't know, there wereLutherans, like you guys, and
we're like, oh, I guess, Thankyou, like it's wonderful.
Speaker 3 (47:42):
Not to barge in again , but we hosted happy hours.
Lutheran's Facial Justice didat the last convention and we we
didn't know if anybody wasgoing to show up.
We had hundreds of peopleshowing up and we're talking.
District presidents came andcircuit visitors and kind of
every level and I was shockedbut it was a great way to like.
That's what coalitionbuilding's about, if people want
to connect with you, josh.
Speaker 2 (48:01):
How can they do so?
Speaker 3 (48:02):
Yeah, I'm on the IG Instagram, just at Josh Salzberg
, Probably the easiest way ifyou want to message me there.
Otherwise, info at Lutheransfor Racial Justice if you want
to chat about that side of thing.
Love it, Emily.
Your contact.
Speaker 4 (48:17):
If you want to learn more about Tabor in Chicago
Iglesia Tabor, because westarted a Spanish ministry also
which has taken off it's info atTaborChicagoorg.
Speaker 2 (48:26):
Love it.
This is lead time.
Like, subscribe, comment.
Wherever it is you take this inand continue to pray for
individual churches and for ourchurch body that we would unite
in mission to make Jesus known.
The days are far too short todo anything other than that.
So it's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
Jesus loves you Both, Josh andEmily.
Speaker 1 (49:00):
And thank you for your investment in this
conversation.
Peace, Amen.
Thank you.
Go to theuniteleadershiporg tocreate your free login for
exclusive material and resourcesand then to explore ways in
which you can sponsor an episode.
Thanks for listening and staytuned for next week's episode.
This is Lead Time.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Welcome to Lead Time Podcast Tim Allman.
Here, jack Calberg has the dayoff.
Today we're talking about we'reheading into convention season
in the LCMS.
We've got district conferences,conventions that are taking
place, and then next summer wewill be gathering together in
July in Phoenix, arizona.
Wow, it's going to be hot forthe 2026 LCMS convention, and so
(00:32):
today we're going to be talkingabout overtures, resolutions
and really to get behind thescenes of what that process
looks like.
And so today my conversationpartners are Josh Salzberg and
Emily Pasiga, and let me tellyou first about Josh.
He's a screenwriter and editorliving in LA.
Born and raised in Missouri.
Josh is a lifelong LCMSLutheran graduate of Lutheran
(00:52):
schools, current volunteerexecutive director at First
Lutheran of Culver City andPalms out in LA so we're in the
same district in 2020.
He co-founded Lutherans forRacial Justice LRJ, a grassroots
coalition committed tofostering multi-ethnic church
and school cultures as theypursue equity, justice and
healing in the LCMS.
In Josh's free time, heexplores the city with his kids
(01:17):
and his spouse, sarah.
How many kids do you have?
Two?
Speaker 3 (01:19):
kids nine and seven.
Nine and seven, oh, that's sogood.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Those are precious years, man, and his spouse so
good.
His spouse, sarah, is a Hebrewscripture and Old Testament
teacher at Orange Lutheran HighSchool.
Go Orange, love that, love thatfaith community there.
Emily, let me tell you abouther.
Emily Fusiga is the executivedirector at Tabor Church in
Chicago.
She went to the convention.
(01:44):
This is going to shape some ofour conversation.
She was just saying she went tothe LCMS convention about 10
years ago.
I was at the same one and therewere, as she shares, men who
were lobbying to condemn at thetime just to put a timestamp on
that, to condemn Concordia,portland.
And she was like what's goingon with the church body that has
(02:05):
all these condemning thingstoward one another?
We may have some room forgrowth.
She is a pastor's daughter inthe LCMS and I can't wait for
you to hear a little bit more ofher story.
So maybe we just start there.
Emily, tell me the story ofkind of why would you, as a
pastor's daughter, get engagedin the LCMS as it relates toward
(02:26):
the political engine which isthe LCMS?
Could you tell that story,emily?
Thanks for being with me today.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
I would love to Thanks for having me Well as a
pastor's child, which I thinkmost of us want to stay as far
away from the church as humanlypossible, and I literally said I
would never work for a church,never be involved in the church
in the way, seeing all the good,bad and the in-between.
But I know that God called meto be here and I heard him say
(02:56):
you do it while praying.
So I'm like okay, god, and whenyou feel that move, like you
had said, when I was atconvention about a decade ago,
it was when things were goingwild at Portland and I was
amazed to hear the language, thenegative language, coming out
(03:17):
of our church body.
And from that point on I reallymade it a point to continue to
be involved, continue toencourage other people to be
involved.
I've educated Laity over theyears on how to do all of this
and just to continue to showcasewhat our church is for versus
constantly what it's against.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Yeah, Thank you, and we'll get into the details here.
Josh, why is this a big topicfor you?
Speaker 3 (03:42):
Well, meanwhile, god specifically told me to get out
of the LC, to not get involvedwith this, but my wife's a
Lutheran school teacher and ourkids need the insurance.
So here I'm kidding, I'm joking.
I love it.
I do have a kid homesick today,though, so we appreciate the
great health insurance that theyhave through their Lutheran
school.
Yeah, I'm a, you know, as yousaid, lifelong Lutheran.
(04:04):
I feel like I got the best ofwhatever the LCMS has to offer
in terms of went to Lutheranschools, had the best experience
, had people that from teachersto leaders in the LCMS because I
was in St Louis, you knowencouraged me both as a as a
student, as a church volunteerand then also as a filmmaker.
(04:27):
That's how I got intofilmmaking.
I would not have the career Ihave if people from top down in
the LCMS hadn't encouraged me,supported me, gave me
opportunities.
So for me, this is all about Iwant everybody to experience the
best of what the LCMS can be,and I know that's not the case
for everybody and we're allresponsible for that.
(04:49):
I think that's my big headline.
As we get into the conversationtoday, we're going to be like
saying some, like you know, talkabout the challenges or
whatever.
For me, these critiques justaren't just about people in
leadership.
It's about Emily and I, who arevolunteer executive directors,
and trying to navigate this aswell.
It's our responsibility.
(05:09):
I get paid a little bit.
Oh, wait a second.
Now we need to talk about this.
Speaker 4 (05:16):
Okay, okay.
Well, that's for offline.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
Well, that's for offline.
We'll talk more about that, butanyways, yeah, my big headline
is to encourage people to getinvolved, because this is your
church, this is our church.
Uh, and if you've got, uh anissue, if you want to see
something changed, if you wantto see it, uh, you know, your
churches, your schools reachmore people.
Uh, you know, get involved.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
So what's been your experience at both district and
synod conventions?
Which ones have you been at?
I've been at the last threenational conventions, so tell a
little bit of that story, josh.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
Yeah, absolutely.
So.
I'll be the fresh-faced newbieto all of this world.
The last national conventionwas my first one.
I had not been to districtconvention before.
I'm a lay delegate at ourdistrict convention here in the
Pacific Southwest this year, soI will be there for that, so
that'll be my first one there.
But really I got involvedbecause, as a part of Lutherans
(06:11):
for Racial Justice, there was agroup that had created a great
overture to encourage a studyaround multi-ethnic ministry
ethnic ministry and the spoileralert here is that it ended up
passing.
It's the largest multi-ethnicministry study to be conducted
in the LCMS ever, which is great, and we can talk more about
(06:32):
that as we get into it.
But that process was basicallyhearing about how that had
passed in a district, how thisoverture had been written, and
then figuring out okay, cool,how can we now get regular
people in the LCMS to hear aboutthis stuff?
Because I'm sure, as you guyshave experienced you know,
there's no, there's no easy wayto get the word out about how
(06:55):
this process works, how to getinvolved, what overtures are
going on.
I'm sorry I'm saying the wordoverture.
Three years ago I don't think Iknew what that meant.
Should we explain?
Speaker 2 (07:05):
overture.
Why don't we do that?
Let's start with what in theworld is an overture, Josh, and
then we'll go to Emily.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
Yeah, absolutely Well , emily may have a better
technical description for me,but I mean, in short, it's a
formal proposal for either adistrict convention or a synod
convention that is going toguide synod policies for either
theology, for practice, foradministration.
So this is everything from howvoting takes place in at
(07:34):
convention, you know, changingbylaws, amending bylaws, to
theological statements, toresearch yeah, it can kind of be
anything.
And the overture is a proposalthat's like a.
You know, there's whereas kindof the setup.
Here's the basis for what we'reabout to call for, you know,
whereas we believe this or thisis true, and then be it resolved
(07:56):
.
Here are the action items, andit's a good thing to keep in
mind, because sometimes it'seasy to get caught up in all the
wording of everything, but inthe end there's a number of
action items, yeah, yeah.
And so the last thing on it isjust as the overtures then go
through this process, whichwe'll get more into, there's
submitting, there's review,there's floor committees,
there's discussion, there'svoting.
But you know, once it's broughtto the floor, it's a resolution
(08:18):
and if it gets approved, nowthat is, you know, added into
either to the bylaws or into,you know, the calls for it's an
official call for a study orwhatever it might be, yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Anything to add there , Emily?
No.
Speaker 4 (08:34):
It's very it's a very confusing process to begin.
Josh and I have led a couple ofZooms on trying to teach people
about it and there are a lot ofcongregations said we have a
convention, we can go and I waslike, yeah, you can go.
Congregation said we have aconvention, we can go, and I was
like, yeah, you can go.
You got to, you got to see ifyou can be volunteered to go,
and there's, and then it getsmore complicated with.
Every church is different inhow their bylaws and how they
(08:54):
vote people in to even go toconvention and how they are able
to submit overtures.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
You're going to say something.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
Well, just again the encouragement and we'll get into
specifics of how it works.
But, aside from all the details, like if you are a lay person
as we're talking about thisstuff you know and want to get
involved, like the encouragementis cool, talk to your pastor.
Figure out who the circuitcircuits are in your, who the
congregations are in yourcircuit, that's your kind of
(09:20):
local network of LCMS churches.
Figure out how maybe you couldbe, you know, a lay delegate If
you're a pastor.
I know pastors are familiarwith the process and don't want
to get involved.
But it's like this is the way,you know, change happens and
that was my big.
We were talking about myexperience at convention.
My big takeaway was look, it waswild.
You know, it's in some waysdepressing because it's
(09:41):
bureaucracy and who wants tolike go through.
It's a tedious process and allof that, and sometimes the
things you're hoping for don'tget passed and all these
different things.
I'm up till 2 am like rewriting, you know, overtures and what
am I going to say on the floorand all of those things.
But what I took away from itwas well, you know, if we could
get 50 people here, some ofthese votes would have changed,
(10:02):
and so for me that's my bigthing is, so many people have
great ideas, want to give input,and so if you're a lay delegate
, go for it.
If you're a pastor, encouragelay people, and if you're a
church worker, you don't get avote.
I'm mostly kidding around,having fun.
You really don't get a vote,but you can still participate
(10:23):
and that's something we can talkabout too.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Yeah.
So, what's working in theprocess, what could use some
improvement?
I'll say, from my perspective,what could use some improvement
is higher participation in ourlay leaders.
Understanding the process, like, your voice at the district and
at the national level carriesthe same weight as the pastor's
(10:48):
voice and we need to hear fromyou what's working, what's not,
what else would you add to that?
What's working in the overtureprocess?
Because I would love to see, Iwould love to see more overtures
coming from lay leaders, laymen and women who are letting
their voice be heard aboutwhat's working or not working in
the synod, in our processes, inour life together as the church
.
Anything more to say there,josh, and then we'll go to Emily
(11:10):
.
Speaker 3 (11:10):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean real quick.
You mentioned, you know,getting more lay people involved
.
This is my superpower.
I have no.
My expertise for whatever thatis I don't have any has really
only come, though, from talkingto so many congregations over
the past five years throughLutheran racial justice, so many
Lutheran school administrators,teachers, whatever.
It's just been a part of thething.
(11:31):
So I've kind of got a surveynow going of what the national
SMS like, and my superpower isthat I am not other than my tie
to you know my kids have healthinsurance through my, my wife's
job.
Tie to you know my kids havehealth insurance through my
wife's job.
Other than that, you know, I'mnot bound by a salary, you know,
or the same oversight that arostered church worker is, and
(11:52):
so I guess that's anencouragement to lay people of I
think a lot of us are havemaybe a fresh perspective
because we're not bound by thesame kind of thinking that you
know.
When you're a pastor or rosterchurch worker, you have to kind
of think you have more of thesystem in your mind.
I got off track of yourquestion.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
Your question was it's OK With the overture
process.
What's working.
What could use more improvement?
Emily, and then we'll come back.
Josh, it's good man, perfectLove that.
Speaker 4 (12:22):
Josh is throwing me off too.
I think the um, the issue withthe overture, is that people
just don't know they exist.
They don't know how to do it.
It's very overwhelming, um andto to Josh's point, to encourage
people to know that they havethe exact same voice and the
exact same vote.
I mean, we were formed as acongregations up synod, so the
(12:46):
power is not within the fewpeople that can be there and
participate, and there's so manychurches that don't even
participate and don't even go totheir district conventions, and
I'd love to see that change andsee every congregation with a
voice.
But there's just there's.
Yeah, it's just getting peopleinvolved, empowering them.
But the writing of the overtureprocess, I think, needs some
(13:08):
massive improvement so thatpeople can feel like they can do
it themselves too.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
Yeah, and, and there's a lot of you know,
knowing that this is a lesson Ilearned from convention, like
respecting understanding thebylaws and like, I think, as a
little bit of a rebel, I want tofight about that and be like I
don't care about bylaws.
But that's how I mean.
It's the same way withgovernment.
It's like you got to knowwhat's on the books in order to
to get the work done.
So that's part of the challengeis just, yeah, knowing, knowing
(13:36):
the rules, knowing the bylaws,knowing the process.
I think what does work and we'rekind of speaking to this
already is your voice is heard,you know, especially when
there's numbers and it's notthat as difficult as it might
sound, but that's really where Ithink the secret is is getting
people out in numbers, gettingcongregations out in numbers,
(13:57):
and this is something thatworked about the multi-ethnic
ministry study, which is theonly reason I'm referencing it
so much is that I think therewas something like a dozen
congregations, you know, inaddition to some circuits and
districts, that submitted theoverture to Senate.
So when the handbook comes outwhere they print the overtures
that have been submitted, you'reseeing, oh, this isn't just you
know, josh, you know, sendingin some random overture.
(14:20):
There's a big call for this anda big movement, and to me
that's what really does workabout it.
The challenges you know.
I already mentioned rosteredworkers don't have a vote.
Why that's a meaning outside ofpastors.
Yeah, so you know what you thinkof as church workers, your DCEs
(14:42):
, your Lutheran school teachers,teachers.
I understand the challengesaround that in terms of you know
the argument is that well, ifwe give church workers a vote,
then that's going to take awayfrom the lay delegate vote.
That's kind of usually theconversation that happens there
and for me it's still a problem.
We got to figure out how tosolve because teachers
(15:04):
especially with my spouse beinga teacher the stuff that gets
decided in convention, this iswhat teachers are dealing with
every day, because any questionthat you might get from that one
difficult person in yourcongregation she's got three
kids asking every day orwhatever policy issue you might
be thinking about, it'shappening at school every day.
And I think we're reallymissing out on a huge voice from
(15:29):
teachers, dces, et cetera, thatwe really need to be a part of
this process, not just asadvisory delegates which they
can be and speak at the mic andthose kinds of things but really
to be able to weigh in becauseon the back end, they're the
ones that have to carry out thedecisions that are made.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Well, we've been.
This is the second podcastthat's brought this episode up,
this topic up.
So what are some ideas do youthink to balance out the lay and
the commission minister voice?
Do you have any like overturerecommendations that folks are
even writing right now?
Could get their heads wrappedaround, josh Emily.
Speaker 4 (16:04):
We've all been tabled .
Speaker 3 (16:09):
Well, emily in the northern Illinois districtled.
Well gone to Omnibus.
Well, Emily in the NorthernIllinois district, that is where
that went there.
There's been other districts.
I don't know have they made itthrough any?
There's a couple overtures.
Speaker 4 (16:19):
It's a synodical bylaw issue so it needs to be
rewritten, to change the bylaws,not just say we want this to
happen, but it has to.
The part of the resolutionshave to be to change bylaws and
from what I hear it's a lot morecomplicated.
But I have found that Control-For Command-F, depending on what
computer you're on, to gothrough bylaws of the Synod, to
(16:42):
find keywords, to go backwardsto do research to say why can't
this go through every time?
And I know this just happenedin the Southeast District too
over last weekend.
It was sent to Omnibus alsobecause of the way it was worded
.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
And I might need your help in reminding me here, but
the couple proposals that havebeen put forward in this round
have been about adding in a laydelegate vote was one option.
Is that correct?
Yeah, to have two lay delegatevotes in addition to a pastoral
delegate vote, in addition tothe added rostered church worker
(17:18):
vote.
Yeah, to create a balance there.
I think that's a great option.
Can you remind me what theother one was?
I should know this.
Speaker 4 (17:25):
It was exchanging the pastoral vote for any called
worker, so it was a DCE.
It was keeping the same number,it was keeping two votes per
congregation but changing thepastoral to it could be a DCE or
a deaconess or another ministeryeah.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
Either way, I think it's a great option.
And look, something else that'spart of this is the reality is,
most statistically, most of ourteachers are women and I do
think we're missing a lot of yes, a woman as a lay delegate can
go, but I still think we'remissing a lot of those voices in
there, you know, especiallywhen we roll out teachers.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Yep.
So Emily talk about the processof writing an overture.
Do we have templates that areavailable, Because I think the
process with all of the whereasis and everything can feel so
kind of overwhelming If someonehas another topic that they'd
like to bring up, regardless ofcommission.
Minister, there are many other,many other topics Do you have
(18:24):
in?
Is there kind of aclearinghouse of where people
can see some other templates ofovertures if they've got some
ideas heading into district andSenate convention?
Speaker 4 (18:32):
District.
Each district has a template.
Senate has a template.
None of them are terribly.
I mean, they're user friendlyin the way that they say this is
the way it should look.
You need to have whereas comma.
You need to have resolved comma.
You need to use the after asemicolon, all of that.
But I've seen overtures thatare three lines long.
I've seen overtures that arethree pages long.
(18:54):
So it bless you.
It really depends on whatyou're trying to get across.
There should always be biblicalbacking in it.
If you can reference the Bible,reference Jesus, that's a plus.
The Bible reference Jesus,that's a plus.
(19:16):
They love those.
So there are templates.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
How you go about writing.
It really depends on the author.
I think I'll throw out there, Ithink, the prior approval
process overture I know you'vetalked about on this podcast, so
I hope I'm not rehashing toomuch.
I think that's a great template, just in terms of like, if you
want to see a well, regardlessof if you agree with it or not
or whatever, although I thinkeverybody should look at it and
(19:48):
push it forward.
In my fired up, I think it'seasy to just like hit the
keyboard and start typing awayand that prior approval process
one is just.
It's worded perfectly.
The theology is great.
The whole logic is laid outreally well, I think.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
So let's talk about district to synod, what that
process looks like.
You've got a whole bunch ofovertures that go to a district
and then a lot of them get movedon.
If they get voted on in theaffirmative, they get moved on
toward a respective floorcommittee who's going to be
looking at all hosts ofovertures that have come in,
some from individuals, some fromcongregations, some from
(20:25):
circuits, many from districts,from districts, right?
I mean those are kind of thefour main overture authorship
groups, right, that end upsending it, sending it on.
And then you mentioned a wordthat some people are probably
unfamiliar with Emily omnibus.
What does omnibus mean?
As a floor committee gets allof these respective overtures
Right, because there's a lot ofthings that people care about
(20:46):
Prior approval, commission,minister formation, all of that
right, and there's going to be alot of overtures coming from
our 35 districts around thosetopics.
So what does omnibus mean?
And am I clarify, in yourperspective, if I miss anything
regarding what happens fromdistrict to Senate?
Speaker 4 (21:01):
Well, you'll have to clarify for me too if I'm
missing anything.
If it is omnibus, there arethree different reasons, but I
cannot think of the third one.
One is it's been discussedbefore, one is it's against our
bylaws or constitution, and thenit goes to the secretary.
And the other one, I think, iswe just don't like it, something
(21:22):
like that, we don't want todiscuss this.
So omnibus just means that thefloor committee is not going to
take a look at it.
So you have the opportunity inthe beginning of convention to
pull overtures or resolutionsout of omnibus.
My last I like Josh, my nationalconvention was the.
(21:42):
My first one was the last one,two, two years ago now, and the
very first thing out of Omnibuswas tried to pull out women's
suffrage.
And I'm like this has beendiscussed.
We're not pulling out women'ssuffrage.
So there are things that theysay have been discussed, things
that we're not going to discuss.
But people still have anopportunity.
Delegates still have anopportunity to pull it out of
(22:03):
Omnibus on the convention floorwhen things go to Omnibus.
There's a lot of things that goto Omnibus that have just been
discussed before.
Like in our district, the sameoverture is submitted every
single time that has to do withend of life stuff and they're
like.
We've already discussed this,we have an answer for this, we
go to the Constitution.
(22:23):
So what was the rest of yourquestion?
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Oh, that's good, Josh , anything to add?
Thank you, emily, that wasexcellent.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
Yeah, and some of that stuff is like, you know,
we're kind of like sometimesmaking jokes or being cynical
about the process, but some ofit is like because all of this,
if you're a lay delegate, you'rejust some person trying to
figure out this process is maybeyour first or second convention
, you know whatever it is.
So you is maybe your first orsecond convention, you know
whatever it is, so you're notremembering that 20 years ago
this was passed.
So there is some practicalityof like, yeah, that's what the
(22:52):
committees are here for, to likeknow what's been discussed
before what's been decided,those kind of things.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
so, uh, one of the major engines, I guess, for how
national, national um floorcommittees get set is the
president of synod, and I'm sureit's in consult with the
Presidium and others get tochoose who they invite onto
(23:18):
those floor committees.
And that is no insignificantthing, right that that you get
to shape.
You may know somebody for acase in point, like I don't talk
about it anymore, but like Iwas not invited onto any floor
committee for for I was actuallyon nominations about six years
(23:38):
ago I was on a floor committeeand that was a very simple
assignment, um, and so I I wasnot subsequently invited onto a
pastoral formation committee oranything or anything like that,
because they know I have, I havestrong opinions.
One of my, one of my, I think,struggles is do we have
(24:01):
appropriate synod widerepresentation from districts,
men and women, pastor and andcommission minister on some of
these floor committees and Iwould say generally on,
especially on a number of themore heated conversations, I
don't know that there's beenadequate representation across
(24:22):
the Senate and I think thatleads to some some frustration
on who are on those respectivefloor committees, because one
voice in a room could say Idon't know that we fully
discussed X issue.
So I think we should refrain atthis point from pulling this
overture and moving it directlyinto omnibus.
Maybe there's new informationthat we need today, but I don't
(24:43):
know.
I don't know that dissent hasbeen welcomed or not.
Dissent, just difference ofopinion on some of the more
controversial issues today infloor committee.
So who gets to put the leaderonto a floor committee at the
national level?
That's a lot of that's cast thedie in the direction that a
number of the overtures and thenresolutions are going to go.
(25:03):
Josh, anything more to saythere?
Speaker 3 (25:05):
Yeah, and I want to talk a bit about the other
aspect of floor committee, whichis the opportunity to speak to
the floor committees, which ispart of the process.
But to your point, yes, I meanthat's one of the main
challenges is how floorcommittees are assigned and
there's going to be, you know, abias there.
I think that's, in general, oneof the challenges to keep in
(25:27):
mind with this whole thing iswe're encouraging you to get
involved, but also the realityis there's a bias towards the
status quo and that's just thereality of, like any kind of big
ship, like this big institutionthat you're trying to change,
always a balance bias for thestatus quo.
But I think that's one of thebiggest challenges, because a
floor committee, yeah, can throwout anything that they don't
(25:48):
want to talk about, and then itcan kind of be a little more,
like you're saying, give less ofa portrait of the full, full
Senate as it's handpicked.
So I'm with you there To becharitable.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
I don't know what the answer is to that.
I don't know how meaning, Idon't know how broad of a group
should be involved to choose afloor committee.
How complex would that actuallybe?
I mean so I'm not.
This is nothing againstPresident Harrison or any
president.
I mean, the system is what thesystem is and it just produces
over time what has been produced.
(26:21):
And unfortunately, courage, Ithink, would be to say I'll have
someone who has a slightdifference of opinion in that
room to make sure representation, even if some others would
maybe bristle at thatappointment, josh, but I'm not
the one that understands.
I'm not in that room to makethose decisions, so I'm
commenting from an outsider'sperspective, but I pray for more
(26:43):
openness to include all voicesin Senate, josh.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
Yeah well, I'm sorry, emily, you can jump in here too
, but I guess to put the onusback on us, because that's all
we can control, right, is that Ithink we need to acknowledge
this is all politics.
You know, we have to say thisis politics, it's how it works.
If you want to get change inany institution, from your local
school, you know, up to thislevel, up to government,
(27:07):
whatever it is, it's, it's allpolitics.
And so you got to make winningarguments and you got to build
coalitions, and so the way toget, you know, to the point
where floor committees, um, youknow, there is, uh, more
fullness of the church bodyrepresented.
Uh, it means we got toparticipate and put the pressure
on for that to happen.
Um, so, again, you can, you canspeak to, you know, you have
this opportunity to speak tofloor committees.
(27:28):
Uh, emily and I I think that'swhere we forged a little bit of
our uh, uh, friendship was inthat process, cause we had come
prepared reading some of theovertures and I I didn't realize
how prepared I need to be,because you then get in the room
with this opportunity to speakand we're flipping through and
we're going.
Well, here's they're sayingsomething about public education
here and we care about.
I've got my kids are inLutheran school we still care
(27:50):
about public education and thatimpacts a big part of our
congregation, and so now we'regoing up and speaking about you
know about that.
And then now we're switching toa totally new topic.
Now we're talking about youknow how congregations, you know
, provide votes or whatever, andso it's a good opportunity, but
it takes.
You know, provide votes orwhatever, and so it's a good
opportunity, but it takes.
(28:10):
You know.
It's a great opportunity tojust share your voice in this
way, and that's the only way wecan put the pressure on, I think
, to make some changes.
Speaker 4 (28:16):
Clarify what you're talking about.
Is that you're talking aboutopen hearings?
That is?
Speaker 3 (28:20):
free Sorry.
Speaker 4 (28:22):
No, no.
So I just want to say beforenational convention and before
your district convention thereare open hearings.
Some districts make it veryeasy to attend open hearings.
Some districts make it veryhard to attend open hearings.
But that's the only time thatyou have to speak to the group
before it hits the floor.
So in my district, in the NIDdistrict, it was at 8 am on a
(28:47):
Saturday before an hour, awayfrom all of us.
So a group of us went and wereable to get some wording change
that we thought was very notshining our best light, as the
LCMS and the committee was veryunderstanding of it.
They changed some of it andthen the wording was different
(29:10):
when we showed up to convention.
So, getting getting involved inopen hearing and anybody can go
to an open hearing, you do notneed said.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
on a Saturday, right for your district in the
southeastern district, theystarted doing Zoom floor
committee hearings and sothere's a little more access
there.
Apparently, a lot of peopleattended those floor committees,
so I think that's.
That's one of the challengestoo is, you know, not always
easy to have.
The time Schedules tend to beno offense, to tend to be built
around a pastor schedule, not anormal work life schedule.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
So yeah, sorry, Sorry I don't know what else to say.
So what are your last questionhere?
And then we'll end with some,some good stuff.
If there's one main, I guess,systemic change that you would
love to see to the, at least anopenness to see in the process,
what would that?
(30:14):
What would that be?
From district to and it'scomplex from district to
national, what would that be?
And then I got, and then I gotone more, one more kind of
focused question along thoselines.
So one, one systemic changethat would, and it could be that
we want to see more lay leadersinvolved at every aspect of it.
That would be mine.
Would you add anything to that,josh?
Speaker 3 (30:34):
Yeah, I mean I think we kind of covered it.
But the things we can controlin the immediate future is more
lay leaders involved.
I know it's not easy but, yeah,get involved with overtures at
your circuit level, get toconventions or just reach out
and we can talk about it.
The things we can't necessarilyhave direct control over in the
immediate future is the rosterchurch worker vote.
(30:54):
I think that would make thebiggest difference, which is why
it's difficult to change,because it would make a
difference.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
Yes, anything to add there, emily.
Speaker 4 (31:01):
I would say from a district level, if districts
would come out and I plan onhopefully talking to our DP
about this but just encouragingand creating a space where
people can ask questions andbecause this is a very people
are afraid to ask questions.
They're like this looks big andwild and hard.
It's not.
You just need to know what therules are.
(31:21):
And if there is a more brokendown version of how to write an
overture, I think that wouldencourage more laity to be
involved also.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
That's so good.
You mentioned commissionministers.
Are there any other issues thatthe Synod needs to address at
district and national convention?
Any other topics that you wantto see?
Man, we need to work on this,josh first and then Emily.
Speaker 3 (31:45):
Yeah, I mean this is a conversation.
I mean there's so many this isanother podcast, uh, so we'll
try to handle it right here.
Um, you know, communityengagement, community organizing
, all the things around that.
I think there are some thingsthat are in place that that put
up, uh, some barriers, but Ithink any way we can encourage
(32:05):
congregations to be partneringwith the community community
that, to me, has made thebiggest difference for us on a
congregational level.
Our pastor has just been soinvolved and our whole
congregation has got involvedwith efforts that are happening
in the community.
And going to the community andsaying, hey, where can we
support what you're alreadydoing as opposed to and I'll
(32:27):
admit, you know, a number ofyears ago my thing was okay how
do we get people onto our campus, how do we start a program, how
do we start a thing?
And we've really started toshift to this partnering with
the community focus and I thinkany way to encourage that I
think would be would be great,Right, emily?
Speaker 2 (32:45):
love that.
Speaker 4 (32:45):
Ditto.
I mean, josh and I are both invery urban settings, so it's I
don't want to say easier for usto say there's a lot more
community involvement.
I guess I'll take that back.
The community needs Jesus andthey see churches as this
institution and we need to showthem that we are people who are
loving Jesus and being the handsand feet of Jesus, versus
(33:07):
telling them what we're notabout.
So that's what?
Yeah, just I would echo whatJosh said with community
involvement, just loving on yourneighbors.
Speaker 3 (33:16):
And I'll be specific and you can edit this out later,
tim, if you want.
But to get specific about ittoo, look, obviously I'm
invested in, you know, lutheranracial justice and multi-ethnic
ministry.
In that way, the study that gotpassed hopefully it turns out
well.
We don't have control over thatpart of it other than writing
emails to encourage as manyvoices to be a part of that
(33:36):
process as possible.
But either way, the idea wasthat that's the first step to
figuring out how to diagnosesome of the challenges and the
problems for multi-ethnicministry so that we can better
partner with Black leaders,multi-ethnic leaders, both
within the LCMS and in ourcommunities.
So I think that's a big thing.
And another thing that I justreally care about, because I
(33:57):
think it's happening on theschool level and maybe we only
talk about this in doctrinalways or congregational ways some
of the time is just we have tofigure out how to better serve
the LGBTQ students in ourschools, in our congregations
and communities.
And that is not me making atheological statement, uh, that
is me saying wherever you falluh on, you know scripture,
theology, whatever, becausethere is a diversity of opinion.
(34:18):
I know it's on the booksdoctrinally, but just the
reality of where our, how bigour church body is.
Wherever you fall on that, uh,we have to figure out how to
better serve, better meet thesestudents in particular, and so,
yeah, those are just a couple ofspecific things that I'd love
to see before.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
That's good.
Well, as Lutherans, we shouldbe able to kindly, courageously,
say two things at the same timeas it relates to that topic
that God's intention is for menand women and the marriage
relationship is the foundationof society, raising kids to fear
and love the Lord.
And those that are not in thatsort of a relationship are
(35:01):
created in the image of God andworthy of dignity and respect
and need to hear the gospel ofJesus Christ and need to see a
church that is I don't have toagree with all of your lifestyle
choices to let you know thatyou're loved by Jesus.
And and I think as LutheransMark Mark Schultz, my friend,
has been down this path in hisministry that that we we just
(35:26):
need to do better in agreeing onwhat we agree on and then
recognizing it really gets downto context, because I think many
of our urban centers, our urbanchurches, are going to and my
first five years was in a muchmore of an urban community the
LGBTQ conversation and kids,especially in the T, in the
transgender community, kids thathave, you know, walked a road
(35:49):
and feel like is the church evenfor me, is my pastor open to
hearing my story?
And when people hear, likeover-emphasis on story.
That doesn't mean because I fulltransparency, my congregation
is largely Trump supporters.
Right, I saw a lot of thestruggles with and now it just
(36:11):
got political, didn't it Now alot of the struggles with
immigration.
We're an Arizona community andso needing to do a better job to
shore up our borders.
But I think I could say thatand, at the same time, say this
is a congregation where you canbelong here, no matter where you
fall, even on the politicalspectrum, and this was super
hard, man, the last twoelections have been super hard
(36:32):
to walk this line.
But I feel as a faith communityhere all I can control is
Christ Greenfield and what comesout of our pulpit.
We let people know you belonghere.
We stand on biblical truth andwhere there is difference of
opinion regarding moral andlifestyle, et cetera
multicultural, multi-ethnic wemust grow in terms of having
(36:54):
arms wide open and I'll justsince I'm on this, I just got to
keep going because Jesuswelcomed everyone.
Every person's story mattersGood, bad, ugly, the brokenness.
Nothing was surprising orshocking to Jesus.
So I think, as we think aboutthe kids, the young people and
older people, but a lot of ourkids who have gone down an
(37:15):
ideological path which I do notthink, long-term, is helpful for
them.
They still are worthy of loveand care and compassion by the
local church.
Will we welcome them?
Set judgment aside, look atthem as a human being who is in
need of love and care, and Jesuswould meet and care for them
long before he would judge them.
(37:35):
As I see Jesus judging, judgyJesus, it's much more along the
pharisaical line than it isalong the immoral line.
When people came to Jesus, theywere transformed.
Go and leave your life of sin,but I do not condemn you, and I
think that we have a pharisaicaltendency in the LCMS that
(37:57):
lovingly needs to be challenged,because who among us are
without sin?
We desperately need the mercyand grace of Jesus.
Emily, and then Josh on this.
Thanks for letting me just goon a little bit of a rant.
Speaker 3 (38:08):
Oh no, thanks for doing that.
I didn't mean to add that.
Okay, Josh, Well.
I'll say, since we're modeling,hey, we can have conversations
and disagree I didn't agree witheverything you said there, but
I really respect what you had tosay and appreciate it Just in
terms of yeah, I think we havesome differences opinions on
whether or not certain lifechoices are beneficial or not.
(38:33):
That's cool.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
Hey, let's model it.
Let's model it.
What did I say that youdisagree with, and how can we
work toward unity?
Speaker 3 (38:39):
Well.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
I disagree with, but maybe you would say it in a
different way.
Speaker 3 (38:43):
No, no, I think it's cool.
I think this is a biggerconversation about what.
What does.
How does sexuality and genderwork?
And I don't know if that'swithin the scope of this podcast
, but what I will say is, eitherway, I think something that
we're missing and again I'mincluding myself in this, this
is, you know, our responsibilityhere is how do we start having
(39:03):
conversations about applicationand opening up that conversation
, for instance, to talk about aless controversial subject,
abortion.
Somebody could, you know, be ahardliner in terms of here's
life begins in conception,here's where it's at.
This is what I believe.
I'm 100 percent here and alsogo.
(39:23):
I don't agree with the thatthere's only one civic policy,
that criminalizing abortion isthe way to address this issue.
Right, like both things couldexist At the same time.
You could also say I don'tthink life begins at conception,
and yet abortion should becriminalized across the board.
And so those are.
I don't know why we can't havemore conversation.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
Nuance man.
Speaker 3 (39:44):
Yeah, around the application, and I'm saying this
because I know that pastorshave gotten trouble for speaking
about nuance, about theapplication, how policies live
out in the real world, and I go.
That doesn't the theology I get.
If somebody says I don't agreewith the LCMS doctrine, the
scriptural interpretation here,well I get it.
(40:04):
But if we're talking aboutpolitical policy, civic policy,
why isn't this up forconversation in a public way?
We're all doing this privately.
Yeah, I just don't.
That's something I'd like tofigure out how to navigate more.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
You'd think the church would be better at
nuanced conversation.
I would, I would hope.
I would hope because,especially in our Lutheran
context, because it is tensionfilled, right, law and gospel,
and I mean that is the center.
I mentioned CFW Walther.
As I'm heading to my sabbaticalthis summer, I'm doing a deep
dive into the life and times ofCFW Walther and one of his main
(40:40):
teachings law gospel book.
It's right here on my on myshelf.
The law always accuses and thereis no ability for me to
pridefully position myself asmore righteous based on what
I've done than another personwho is being accused in their
own way by the law of their sin.
(41:02):
And so, yeah, we should becomemore comfortable and maybe I
have you back on where we canhave a public conversation
around the LGBTQ conversationand even I think we have a lot
to learn with one another.
And I think I think our contextI've made this case on a number
of different topics, but ourcontext and our experience with
(41:22):
real people in real placesreally shapes the way we see the
world.
I would hope that we couldagree.
We could agree on that.
So this go ahead, josh.
Close that down.
Speaker 3 (41:31):
And then I got one.
Now I'm worried.
Did it read like I'm anti LGBTQ?
Is that how this?
That came out when I said Ijust think so.
Speaker 4 (41:38):
Okay, I don't think so.
Speaker 3 (41:40):
I would say I'll just put it this way that I in
general these conversations aregoing to my biases towards
marginalized care for thatcommunity, yeah, and compassion
there.
So in case, that was unclear.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
No, no, that was definitely not.
Speaker 4 (41:53):
Absolutely what our church is struggling with the
most is the where law and gospelis applied and how it's being
applied and how.
When I say we're praying for,you know, immigrants and asylum
seekers or whatever, andsomebody goes, I'm only praying
for them if they came herelegally and it's like where are
you being the hands and feet ofJesus?
Where are you being the handsand feet of Jesus with all of
(42:14):
these topics?
Where are you being the handsand feet of Jesus in your
overture writing?
Speaker 2 (42:17):
Yeah, amen, hey, let's close with something good.
Tell me one story of God atwork in your local context where
you're like, wow, if otherpeople got a little bit of Jesus
, holy Spirit-inspired passionout of this story, man, so many
people could be reached with thegospel.
We'll start with you first,emily.
Any stories of just beauty andawe and wonder of God at work in
(42:38):
your Chicago community.
Speaker 4 (42:39):
I get to see in a small congregation.
I love that I can see the HolySpirit working immediately in
front of us, working immediatelyin front of us and I know you
can see it in bigger ones.
But we're give you the mostrecent instance is with food
pantry.
We know that we are in an areathat really needs a food pantry.
(43:00):
Really there's a lot.
It's a food desert.
There's a lot of need.
So we went into looking intofood pantry.
Realized that it was.
We were way over our heads withthat.
I told pastor.
I was like we can't do this.
We have three people that aregoing to be here.
We can't move 5,000 pounds ofwhatever food once a week.
And the next day after we werelike okay, we can't do this, we
don't know, we're going to prayon it.
(43:20):
The next day we get a phonecall saying can you do boxed
food pantry?
I was like, yes, we can.
Yes, we can Look at God.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
So that was just one of those things where he really
just followed through showed ushow we can do it in our small
congregation.
Speaker 3 (43:42):
And it was awesome and it's going really well.
Josh Jesus story yeah, talkedabout it a little bit but when
we made the turn a few years agoin our congregation to focus on
partnering with the community,we kind of gave our pastor
permission to spend a goodamount of his time just in the
community and we have a smallerchurch, so I know it's easier
for us to do than maybe somecongregations and he ended up
(44:04):
getting elected to theneighborhood council and really
formed a lot of relationshipsand built trust there and
through that we ended up gettingconnected with local organizers
.
That especially around tourismindustry, which is largely, you
know, immigrant industry.
Here in Los Angeles we'retalking hotel workers, the
(44:24):
airport, we got the Olympicscoming up.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
Yeah, 28.
Speaker 3 (44:29):
Yeah dependent on them and they've been promised
pay raises and health benefitsthat have never come through
from the city.
And so these community partnersstarted saying, hey, would your
congregation consider publiclyspeaking up for this?
And so we did as a congregation, and I got to give most of the
credit to our pastor, to MattWaite, who has really shown up.
(44:51):
I've gone to a couple ofmeetings and those kinds of
things, but nowhere near whathe's done, going to City Hall,
speaking at City Hall, speakingas a pastor, and I think there's
a perception about, you know,secular world, especially maybe
Los Angeles, where it's like, oh, it must be hard to be a
Christian.
We've had the oppositeexperience.
Where they're going, hey, wouldyou come pray with us, would
(45:12):
you?
They say like, hey, we'd loveit if you'd be openly a pastor,
wear your collar, like we don'twant to.
You know, we want you torepresent, like who you are, and
those kind of things.
And it's been a really coolexperience.
And the good news on the otherside of that is that it's it's
going to pass, it's down to thelast vote is happening this week
(45:33):
and so actual, like a changehappened there.
So that's been cool.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
Hey, I really appreciate you both.
Thank you for your, yourpassion for speaking, for aiding
the church, and I'm praying formore and more unity, for more
and more voices to be heard inthe LCMS.
It takes, as our districtpresident, josh, says, it takes
all types of churches to reachall types of people and we need
(45:55):
all types of lay leaders,commission leaders to let their
voice be heard and pastors tolovingly invite all of the
priesthood, of all believers, tobe with us.
I'm not to close my closingcomment.
I don't spend and you've got aday job, josh, so do you Emily.
(46:16):
It's not like a lot of our timegets spent thinking about these
things.
I think the perception becausesometimes we have more of these
political oriented is like I'mlike fixated on the bureaucracy
of the LCMS, like no, I'mleaving this going to a campus
meeting talking about how wereach people with the gospel of
Jesus Christ.
I'm just a learner.
I've been at the table tryingto get to microphones, but that
is like a very, very, very smallpercentage of my head and heart
(46:38):
space, so just let it be known.
I'm sure the same is for youboth, but that little bit spread
out among many different voicesover time could make a change,
Josh, your thoughts.
Speaker 3 (46:48):
Yeah, that's exactly it.
It's Emily and I calling eachother as we're like getting kids
to the car and into an officeor doing like whatever we have
to like.
It's those conversations thatadd up over months.
Hey, I'll squeeze in a Zoomhere like this.
It's getting the scraps of ourtime, but yeah, hopefully it all
adds up to some ripple effectfor sure.
Closing word.
Emily.
Speaker 4 (47:07):
I just say amen to that.
It is something that in themoment, can feel like it's a lot
, especially leading up toconvention.
And then it's a lot ofpreparatory work and, like Josh
said, we showed up at theconvention and we were like it's
, it's a great networkingopportunity to meet other
(47:31):
like-minded.
I mean, we had a Zoom this weekon Bible study and somebody
goes I didn't know, there wereLutherans, like you guys, and
we're like, oh, I guess, Thankyou, like it's wonderful.
Speaker 3 (47:42):
Not to barge in again , but we hosted happy hours.
Lutheran's Facial Justice didat the last convention and we we
didn't know if anybody wasgoing to show up.
We had hundreds of peopleshowing up and we're talking.
District presidents came andcircuit visitors and kind of
every level and I was shockedbut it was a great way to like.
That's what coalitionbuilding's about, if people want
to connect with you, josh.
Speaker 2 (48:01):
How can they do so?
Speaker 3 (48:02):
Yeah, I'm on the IG Instagram, just at Josh Salzberg
, Probably the easiest way ifyou want to message me there.
Otherwise, info at Lutheransfor Racial Justice if you want
to chat about that side of thing.
Love it, Emily.
Your contact.
Speaker 4 (48:17):
If you want to learn more about Tabor in Chicago
Iglesia Tabor, because westarted a Spanish ministry also
which has taken off it's info atTaborChicagoorg.
Speaker 2 (48:26):
Love it.
This is lead time.
Like, subscribe, comment.
Wherever it is you take this inand continue to pray for
individual churches and for ourchurch body that we would unite
in mission to make Jesus known.
The days are far too short todo anything other than that.
So it's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
Jesus loves you Both, Josh andEmily.
Speaker 1 (49:00):
And thank you for your investment in this
conversation.
Peace, Amen.
Thank you.
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