April 1, 2025 • 51 mins
Listening may be the most powerful yet underutilized tool in our spiritual arsenal, particularly in a culture that prizes quick responses and winning arguments over deep understanding.
Grab Pastor Brian Davies' new book!
• Pastor Brian Davies introduces his book "Captivating Conversations: How Christians Can Reclaim the Lost Art of Listening"
• Jesus modeled asking questions rather than simply giving answers, demonstrating that transformation happens through invitation, not instruction
• The "OCI" approach—being Open, Curious, and Inquisitive—creates space for genuine dialogue and relationship
• Leadership should mirror Christ's approach of "leading through" rather than "leading over" people
• Asking good questions helps us understand the stories behind people's positions and creates bridges for meaningful conversation
• When Christians focus more on ecclesiology than mission, we lose perspective on what matters most
• Our posture toward fellow believers should prioritize unity in mission over critiquing differences in practice
Find peace, clarity, and companionship for your spiritual journey.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is Lead Time.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Welcome to Lead Time.
Tim Allman here with JackKauberg.
Jack, loving life dudeAbsolutely.
Speaker 3 (00:08):
Having a great time today.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
These are beautiful full days, the Lord you know.
We're just getting out of ameeting for generosity and
hearing neat stories aboutmission and people falling more
in love with Jesus.
We just from a ChristGreenfield perspective.
We just got clearance from thetown of Gilbert to put up our
new digital sign.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
New LED sign.
Yes, New LED.
Yeah, we were super pumpedabout that.
We had to do a study on howlight would reflect off the
ground and our vendors like I'venever heard of that before.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
So, goofy, so goofy.
And then we're also coming offof Ash Wednesday and I got to
preach a of times yesterday atAsh Wednesday and it felt our,
our evening service, our noonservice, is actually very full,
but the evening service waspacked to the brim.
We may have to think aboutdoing two Ash Wednesday evening
services.
So yeah, I said full, just likejust like when.
(00:59):
I don't know what you thinkabout President Trump and his
speech the other day.
People have a variety ofperspectives, but I think he's
funny if you have the right lensto kind of see him, because
when he comes back and sayswe're back, baby, you know, it's
like Christ Greenfield, we'reback, we're back from COVID.
Like let's not do that again,you know, let's keep people in
the house of the Lord and listendeeply to one another.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
Jack, what do you want to say to Trump?
Speaker 1 (01:26):
This is the best Ash.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Wednesday ever Never experienced anything like it.
His hyperbole is like over thetop.
This is the greatest churchyou've never seen.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
There's never been a church.
We are 90 seconds into this.
We're already going down thisroad, man.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Why not?
Why not?
Yeah, all right, so let meintroduce you to our guest,
brian Davies.
He is a pastor at Lord of GloryLutheran Church in Grayslake,
illinois, and a chaplain.
This is cool for Grayslake FireDepartment and Round Lake Fire
Protection District.
Love that you're out in thecommunity like that.
Brother Davies graduated fromConcordia River Forest, now
(02:03):
Concordia university, chicago,played football there.
He was a guard four years.
You didn't miss a star, did you?
You?
Speaker 4 (02:10):
were healthy.
Pretty much I was.
Thank you to God, I was everysnap.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
That is hardcore dude .
And he studied communications,biblical languages.
He went on to earn his MDiv.
He's mastered the divine no,the divine has mastered him At
Concordia Seminary, st Louis, heand his wife Beth.
They have three children Kate,megan and Luke, and I just heard
that his daughter I'll let youdrop it, your daughter is a
(02:33):
really good senior softball orjunior softball player that just
has made her commitment.
Where's she going to play?
Speaker 4 (02:40):
He's going to play at Loyola University in Chicago.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Top 100 program in the country.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
And having a lot of fun.
She's still got her junior yearand senior year to enjoy.
And the other day she said tous I kind of have senioritis and
I'm like, no, you don't, You'rea junior.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
You've got a lot of work still to do, but, wendy,
already knows where she's going,but the coach has been awesome
to her and it's a very generousoffer and a great opportunity
for her.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Good for her.
He also is the author ofConnected to Christ.
Overcoming Isolation ThroughCommunity.
Was that with ConcordiaPublishing?
Speaker 4 (03:13):
House.
It was yeah, it broke out right.
It was released right aroundCOVID.
I wrote a book about findingcommunity in the midst of COVID,
which is crazy to think about.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Wow, so you were writing something on overcoming
isolation before COVID came out.
I was, yeah, okay.
Well, yeah, we needed help withthat.
We definitely do, and todaywe're going to be talking about
the book CaptivatingConversations how Christians Can
Reclaim the Lost Art ofListening.
It just recently came out.
It's published also by CPH.
(03:44):
So how are you doing, brian?
Thanks for spending time withus, buddy.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
I'm awesome, I appreciate the opportunity to
visit with you guys and thanksfor the work that you guys are
doing, both in your localministry and also just your work
of elevating really importantconversations and, as the author
of a book that highlights theimportance of conversations,
right, I value them and I thinkwe need more long form ones.
We need less tweet and attacksand we need more sitting,
(04:11):
listening and asking questions,and I think we can learn a lot
from Jesus approach.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
That's a fact.
There's your clip right therefor Instagram.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
There you go yeah, more, more facts, and the fact
is we need relationship, and weneed to build deeper trust over
time with relationship, and solet's get into this.
How is listening?
You know, everybody wants tospeak, everybody wants to tweet,
everybody wants to get theirword out.
How is listening, though?
(04:39):
And as we even talk about this,this is like the main reason I
like podcasts is because I thinkpeople are fascinating and I
want to ask them questions andlisten to them and grow, grow
with them.
But how is it?
A lost art you mentioned this alost art, even for Christians,
brian.
Let's start there.
Speaker 4 (04:56):
Yeah, and I would affirm you, tim, for taking that
posture of curiosity right.
Unfortunately, that isabsolutely a lost art.
Right, unfortunately, that isabsolutely a lost art.
We are in a culture where weprejudge one another based on
the camp that they're in ortheir appearance, or all the
ways in which we judge oneanother.
And we don't take the time toactually hey, what leads you to
(05:17):
come to that conclusion?
Right, and I observed it inculture.
I think you guys have observedit, probably all of your
listeners and those watching onYouTube have observed it and
we're tired of it.
We don't want to live in thatworld anymore.
It is not a good world to livein.
And the reality is, as yousurvey the landscape of the
approach Jesus takes, dude, ifthere was ever anyone who should
(05:39):
just come down and tell peopleanswers, it's Jesus.
But the reality is, theapproach he takes is comes down
to earth and sit, listens andask questions of people for that
very purpose, cause he knowsthat's really what's going to
lead to transformation of humanhearts.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
There's no doubt.
What is it about the West Likeyou do a little bit of writing
here, the culture in the West.
That's most challenging,especially as it relates to
listening.
And what is our hope right nowas we look at culture starting
to change?
I think there's.
I'll just tee it up this way.
I think there's greaterevidence and I think,
(06:16):
anecdotally and there may besome surveys people could find
where people's hearts are opentoward mystery, toward
spirituality, toward a God whowants to speak to them and they
in turn, listen.
They just don't know he's inthe person and form of Jesus.
So how is it challenging herein the West to listen?
(06:38):
What are some of those biggestchallenges, brian?
Speaker 4 (06:40):
Well, first of all, I think what's modeled for us by
our leaders, by what we see onTV and cable, to new shows and
and quick bites on Instagram orsocial media, are hot takes.
And how do you win an argumentand how do you best the other
person?
And the reality is that is theleast successful approach in
(07:05):
human relationships, right?
So if you're saying like, hey,I had this conversation and then
I said something and then theyhad nothing to say you know
people brag about that and myfirst thought is that's really
unfortunate Then that means thatstopped the conversation.
Isn't the goal to get toresolution?
Isn't the goal to get to adeeper understanding?
If you said something thatstopped the conversation, isn't
the goal to get to resolution?
Isn't the goal to get to adeeper understanding?
(07:25):
If you said something thatstopped the conversation, that's
not a win, that's a loss.
So I think, unfortunately, allthese things are getting modeled
for us that we've got to, we'vegot to beat the other person
when reality, the win comes whenwe sit down and get to know one
another better and get to knoweach other's personal histories,
and then where do we findcommon ground?
Speaker 3 (07:46):
That's the.
I mean, that's the caption thatyou see on social media See
this person getting owned or seethis person getting shut down
right, exactly.
Speaker 4 (07:54):
And so, unfortunately , we see that and we think, oh
so, that's what we're supposedto do, right, that's what I'm
supposed to do, I got to win, Igot to win.
And I think, unfortunately, theapproach that gets the most
likes is the approach that isthe least successful.
You know, around the dinnertable or in human relationships
or in the conference room at thechurch, I mean, like, if you're
(08:16):
trying to beat the other person, you've lost.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Well, it evidently doesn't work.
There's a lot of studysociologically on developmental
stages in children and betweenzero and three.
You know we're hypernarcissists.
Everything is about me and theysay something clicks around
three or four, as kids start toplay with one another.
(08:40):
Oh, I can't hit, I can't bite.
You know this makes people notlike me.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
And.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
I need, I need, I need people.
So one of my favorite JordanPeterson quotes from a book I
think it was 12 Rules orsomething like that.
But don't let your kids doanything that makes you dislike
them.
So why and it's true, like wedon't do that here and I think
sometimes we've not wanted as asadults with our kids or who
(09:06):
really likes to tell that personyou know you can't.
That behavior is sociallyinappropriate, like that's
uncomfortable.
No one really likes to do that.
But we've got to be close enoughand this is where it gets to
leadership.
Right, you have to have otherpeople that are close enough to
you.
Do you realize how you cameacross right now?
And for me, learning has beenTim.
You can be intense, you know,and that intensity can build a
(09:33):
wall for other people to notconnect to you.
So you need and you're a biggerguy, you're a football guy,
right, and I'm not like huge,but even like you're when you're
with people, you need to bephysical posture, like you got
to pay attention to your EQ, theway you connect to people and
the way you do.
You have to ask more questionsrather than talk.
Let me like you've been alongtime pastor.
I've been a longtime pastor.
We can't pastor for a length oftime apart from developing
(09:59):
curiosity for what's going on inthe lives of our people.
Right, If I just come in anddictate and just tell, that's
not gonna work.
If I invite and ask questionsover time, that works.
That builds team.
That builds trust.
Anything more to say aboutpastoral ministry and listening?
Speaker 4 (10:14):
Brian, a lot actually .
And first I'll just say, youknow, remember the Lord Jesus
Christ, who obviously comes downto earth and we see his earthly
ministry.
He's the one who created us, sohe knows human nature.
He knows that the best approachin interpersonal relationships
is gonna be community, is gonnabe asking questions, sitting,
listening and letting peopleprocess.
So it would make sense thatkind of the architect of us, the
(10:36):
creator of us, would take thatapproach because he knows it's
the most successful.
And I would say, tim, to yourpoint about pastoral ministry,
and I would make this too interms of any vocation that your
listeners and viewers are in.
It just makes life a lot moreinteresting.
Like, for example, like youknow, I'll go have a breakfast
meeting with someone in ourcongregation who's the AD
athletic director of a verylarge high school, suburban high
(10:58):
school.
You know, before I would listento podcasts or something on the
way there, but I started alittle while ago, using that
drive time to think of, hey,what can I learn from this
person if I'm going to havebreakfast with them, right?
So then I started going intothose moments being like, hey,
well, this person is a leader.
This person probablydisappoints people, like I do
(11:19):
sometimes.
So I started using thosemoments to be like hey, tell me
about your vocation and problemsI have I'm having, and pick his
brain a little bit and do youthink that meeting then is a lot
more interesting for him?
Absolutely Right.
Cause he gets to talk about hisvocation and he feels listened
to, he feels heard, he feelsvalued.
So I think it makes it makesthe role of the listener a lot
(11:42):
more interesting, but also italso makes the relationship a
lot stronger with the personyou're trying to reach.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Well, yeah, and we're talking all the time.
They have to listen to us for,you know, 20 minutes a week or
whatever, they hear all thisstuff.
You know that's one of theweird things about ministry is
there's a lot of people thatknow way more about me than I
know about them, and so I guess,to land it, you can't know
everybody deeply, but do youhave pastor some and I don't
(12:09):
care if your church is a hundredpeople or you know 10,000
people, whatever Do you havesome sort of a rhythm for going
out to get lunch and coffee andjust not just with your top
donors, but like as the Lordbrings someone to mind?
I interacted with a brother.
I was in the choir for twofestival choirs in our
congregation.
It was so fun.
Our music director is soamazing and I didn't have to do
(12:30):
anything else but just be a partof the choir.
I sat next to Norm the entiretime, right, and I was like Norm
.
I heard about his son, who's apastor up in Nevada, and I was
like Norm I'd love to get lunchwith you sometime.
And what do you know, todaypopped up on my calendar.
I told Don, hey, could you getthis scheduled?
This was like a month ago or so, norm popped up on my calendar.
(12:52):
Today Cindy, his wife showed up.
We had Culver's.
I listened to their story,which was a random choice.
They wanted to go to Culver'sand then they got which I never
eat dessert at like noon and hebrought me out this dessert but
we just had a.
I did eat it.
I not all of it, but I did eatit.
Uh, cause it would have beendisrespectful not to um, but man
, I just listened to them forlike an hour and it was the best
(13:14):
it is the best.
What other time would I have hadLike, get me and this is maybe
where a bridge of love and careand understanding, pastoral
visitation, may be a lost artright.
Get into people's homes and ifthey don't want you in their
home, go out for coffee or lunchwith them.
You should have budgetedresources toward that end.
(13:35):
Anything more to add towardgetting to know your people well
, brian?
Speaker 4 (13:37):
Yeah, I would say, you know, that's a part of my
vocation as a parish pastor andprobably many of the folks that
are listening who had thatvocation, my vocation as a
parish pastor, and probably manyof the folks that are listening
who had that vocation, like wesee our shut ins right Folks,
folks not able to get out a lot,and for a part of my ministry
those were kind of perfunctory,like, hey, just do the thing, do
a devotion, you know, talkabout the weather.
And then I said, holy cow, hereI am, I get to sit for 45
(14:02):
minutes with someone who's 93years old.
Do you think I could ask somequestions that might I might
learn something from them?
And so I started asking thisquestion hey, you've probably
lived through times in ourculture that were very divided.
Is this the most divided timeyou've ever seen our culture?
Well, if you ask people who arein their nineties, they lived
(14:23):
through some pretty divisivetimes and they have a lot to say
about it.
And I find like, hey, all of asudden those 45 minutes go like
that and they feel heard, theyfeel listened to, they feel
valued and this it makesministry a lot more interesting.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Yes, so good.
So let's get into Jesus.
How does Jesus help us becomebetter listeners?
Tell some stories about Jesus.
I know there's data out thereabout how many questions Jesus
realized holy cow.
Like this stuff is actuallymodeled in the Bible for us,
right.
Speaker 4 (15:10):
And so I kind of backdoored into like, hey, if
you read the Gospels, theministry of Jesus Christ,
through the lens of the approachhe takes in interpersonal
relationships, once you see it,you will not unsee it.
He asks a ridiculous amount ofquestions and it comes from the
very beginning of his ministry,luke chapter two.
Jesus is left behind in thetemple as a 12 year old boy and
(15:33):
Luke records for us that he'sfound there sitting, listening
and asking questions.
And the rest of his ministry ismarked by asking people
questions that oftentimes healready knows the answers to,
because he knows that the act ofasking that question and
inviting them into reflection isgoing to lead them into the
(15:54):
breakthrough that he wants tosee happen in them.
And so oftentimes we take theapproach of okay, I want to move
this person from here to there,I just need to tell them what
to do, or tell them what tothink.
The reality is that is theleast successful, statistically
speaking, approach to take.
If you want to change someone'smind, the least successful
(16:14):
approach is to tell them what todo or think, and Jesus knew it.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
Brian, I was just reading in a small group, mark,
the story of the woman with thebleeding problem touches touches
jesus's garments, yeah, andshe's healed and he says who
touched me?
Like he knew who touched didthat, but that question was
important.
I love that one.
Having a confession of faithfrom her is what it was right he
(16:42):
gave her.
He gave her an opportunity toconfess her faith and then he
said your faith is what healedyou right.
Speaker 4 (16:47):
Isn't that great, yeah.
And once you start to look forthose moments, you never.
You see them all over the place, the feeding of the 5,000.
He even asked them well, howmuch do you have?
You know?
Meaning, I actually want you totake inventory of this so that
(17:07):
you can look back and be likeholy cow, how did this happen?
From this and the question, themere question, says I actually
want to involve you in the workthat I'm just about to do.
I can do it on my own, but Iwant to use what you have and
what you're going to bring and Iwant you to take inventory of
it before you do it.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Yeah, so let's get into the specific questions.
What are the questions that arecentral to Jesus ministry?
You got to end chapter four.
Speaker 4 (17:29):
Oh boy, there's a lot of those, but I would go to
like.
He asks Peter, who do you saythat I am Right?
What, what, what, what?
First he starts with you knowwhat's the word on the street
about me?
Who do people say that I am?
Which is a question he, ofcourse, would have known, like
he would have if anyone knew theword on the street.
It would have been Jesus, formany reasons.
(17:49):
But then he says well, who doyou?
What about you?
Who do you say that I am?
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Which I think is a let's pause on that really quick
.
Was Jesus concerned about brandHis brand, because that's a
brand question.
What are people saying about me?
What's my personal brand rightnow?
And it was a mixed.
His success was mixed, thereviews were very mixed.
The Pharisees were not excited.
(18:13):
Is he just a prophet?
Obviously, they kind of knew.
So yeah, what other questions?
Speaker 4 (18:18):
Yeah, I think back to that, like one of the functions
of that question was to invitethe disciples to think okay,
well, what are people saying?
You know, like, what is theword on the street and what do I
make of that?
And then it comes down to well,what about you?
Who do you say that I am?
And then I think other timesit's um, I always like the one,
um, someone else who has aphysical ailment, and Jesus asks
(18:40):
what do you want me to do foryou?
You know which I mean?
Obviously, if you had thephilosophical, I mean that is so
top of mind for you, it'severything right.
But to Jack's point, it's likeit invites that person to
reflect on what do I really wantto see change?
What do I really want to seehappen in my life?
Speaker 3 (18:58):
I think pastoral care is so interwoven with questions
, right?
People will ask a question Alot of times.
The best way is to ask aquestion back to understand what
is the real heart of thequestion, right, why do you want
to know?
Right, that's something thatthey ask pastors to ask that
question why do you want to knowthat answer?
Because, depending on why youwant to know, that's the right
(19:19):
way to approach the answer.
Speaker 4 (19:21):
Yeah, and I've personally found that, Jack,
that is a good question.
Why do you want to know I foundthat that can be a little
off-putting Like why?
Speaker 3 (19:30):
do you want to?
Speaker 4 (19:30):
know Right, and so, like I prefer the simple hey,
could you tell me more aboutthat?
Yeah, I want to make sure Iunderstand exactly kind of what
you're getting at.
Tell me more about what?
Tell me more about that Becausepeople actually like to talk.
Statistics reveal that ifyou're in a conversation with
somebody and you're kind oftaking the posture of curiosity
(19:51):
toward them and they get to talkabout themselves, the same
hormones are released withinthem as when they're eating a
delicious steak and wine dinnerSomething firing in your brain
like satisfaction joy.
So when you ask a question likehey, tell me more, I actually
want to hear from you.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
That's like oh really yes.
Yeah, Tell me more is anawesome question.
It's actually any type ofconversation.
You can just have it a betterconversation by saying tell me
more.
Speaker 4 (20:19):
A hundred percent, because oftentimes and we've
seen this in interpersonalrelationships the first thing is
rarely the thing right, likeyou've got to get underneath the
thing that's presented to getto the real truth, right?
So can you maybe, as simple asit feels like there's a little
more that's underneath that?
Could you tell me more aboutthat?
Speaker 2 (20:38):
That's so good.
What is the role of listeningin difficult conversations?
We talk about difficultconversations a lot Intent
impact, maintaining curiosityand things like that.
What is the role of questions,though, Because you guys are
kind of hinting at it a littlebit more?
Any more words of wisdom as itrelates to the conversation?
You'd rather not have, but youknow you need to have.
Speaker 4 (21:00):
Yeah, I did a whole chapter in the book about
listening in the midst ofconflict, and the first thing,
the first move I would makewould be and Tim and Jack, you
guys have done a phenomenal jobwith that on this podcast, which
is normalizing healthyconversations where there's
disagreement Is it okay for us,as Christians, to have a little
(21:22):
bit of a disagreement aboutsomething?
The answer is yes, right, and Ithink there's someone I know.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Try to find a church where that doesn't exist.
Exactly Right.
So how do you do it healthy,right?
Speaker 4 (21:33):
There's a gentleman I know by the name of Les Stroh.
Maybe you know him.
He's in the Lutheran leadershipworld.
His quote, which I love, is um,conflict is inevitable, enemies
are optional.
Um, which I absolutely love,and it just like, from the
beginning, let's normalize that,hey, we're going to just see
things different.
Um, um, and just off the batsay that doesn't mean that we
(21:57):
can't be friends, it doesn'tmean that we can't be, um,
fellow sisters and brothers inChrist.
But let's just say, hey, we'regoing to see this, we're going
to see this thing differently.
So that would be step one.
And then number two would bewhen we get this into the book,
like ask questions so you get tothe bottom of what's actually
leading the person to think oract in that certain way.
Is we make preconceived notionsabout the other person's
(22:25):
position or opinion based onprevious experiences we've had
with people who have thatposition or opinion which may
not be applicable to that personat all, and so we're way better
off getting underneath what itis that's leading them to think
or act that way.
That can actually get them to.
Oh, so that's your concernabout this initiative, or that's
(22:46):
your concern about thispossible change that we're
thinking about making Now.
I understand that Now I canadequately address it, but until
you get underneath, and thebest way to get underneath is
through questions.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
Yeah, I'm thinking of conversations around difference
of opinion.
We talk formation on here allthe time.
I could do a better job oftrying to get to know the story
of why the person so deeplybelieves in residential only
(23:19):
being the gold standard.
And there's a lot of people inour world, not just seminary
presidents, there's a lot ofpeople who really, really
believe that and it's probablybecause, like me, they were
touched, changed.
That encounter with Jesus,connected to a professor,
face-to-face in a classroom,radically shifted their point of
(23:39):
view.
I mean, this is bestconstruction and you just want
more people to have that sort ofview.
And I mean this is bestconstruction and you just want
more people to have that sort ofexperience.
And why wouldn't you want thatsame experience, right?
But it's probably some sort ofan emotional connection to that
space, right?
And we're all enfleshed,creatured, embodied people that
develop culture, systems andstructures that are really
(24:01):
really helpful and and itcenters us, it centers us in in
our relationship with God.
Maybe another what is it about?
The liturgy?
And we're talking like all ofthe liturgy smells bells, like
all of all, all of it, like thedepth of the Lutheran liturgy.
For those of us who disagree,well, it's probably because you
had an amazing encounter.
(24:24):
It's probably because you cameout of Jack, like your story.
You came out of a faithexperience that really left you
wounded and wondering where Godis, and now you experience the
mystery, the gravity, thereverential presence of God.
You're just wholly struck by itand you just want other people
to experience that.
(24:44):
I think in those two likethere's stories connected to
that.
So why can't we just connectand then to land the plane?
As it relates to contemporary ora modern worship experience,
they met Jesus deeply and therewas a drum on the stage right
and they just want more peopleto know.
It's all story.
So how do we ask enoughquestions to get behind the
(25:07):
scenes?
It's not just about strategy,structure, institutional
preservation.
Listen, because I get to sharemy story.
I think a lot of people knowwhy I like both styles of
worship and why now.
(25:28):
So let me get back to theconversation on formation right,
the reason I'm so passionateabout it is because I have a
story being in context where alot of leaders are being raised
up, and why wouldn't everybodywant to have a whole bunch of
leaders raised up?
So it's all story, jack.
Any follow-up to that?
Speaker 3 (25:45):
No, I mean really, what we're boiling it down to is
can we be charitable in ourdisagreement and realize that
and I have to say this aboutmyself it's like there's a
positive reason.
There may be a flip side to ittoo.
That may be an unhealthy reason.
There's a positive reason.
There may be a flip side to it,too.
That may be an unhealthy reason.
Both of those could be true.
At the same time, when I take avery strong position on
(26:07):
something right, a truth, andmaybe because I'm holding on to
that truth so much, maybesomething blinders that I'm
wearing around that topic, Iwant to be totally honest and
say, like we're talking aboutissues of orthodoxy and
innovation.
You know reallywell-established ways of doing
(26:28):
things and innovative ways ofdoing things, and in that
process, we could be overlynarrow in how we think or we
could be reckless in how we canthink, and those are two things
like we have to be totallyhonest that that conversation,
that's a space that we'reexploring right now, and you can
have really good intentions orreally bad intentions about
trying to be overly restrictive,overly broad, right, we don't
(26:50):
want to be reckless, right, wealso don't want to be narrow.
So, like this is a toughconversation.
It's messy.
Conversations around this isreally messy.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Yeah, it is, and story is what gets us more to
the middle.
That conversations around thisis really messy, yeah, it is,
and story is what gets us moreto the middle.
Speaker 4 (27:06):
That's right.
Story is what gets us to thetable.
Brian, go ahead.
Yeah, tim, I would just affirmyou for that observation about
yourself.
Like, hey, I could use morequestions, right.
I would observe, like, havingseen you do your work pretty
publicly on this podcast, likeyou are working hard at it, you
are trying to model it and I seeit, and I think other people
see it I think there's room forall of us to make that move.
(27:27):
I think, instinctively, we comeoff watching, you know,
political news soundbites wherepeople just think if I say it
louder or more emotionally tied,it's going to work.
But but you know it never doesRight.
So when you're, my trick islike when my instinct tells me
(27:48):
to just say it again or say itmore passionately, I totally go
the other way and say whatquestion can I ask in this
moment that's actually going topossibly lead to a breakthrough?
Have you guys read Adam Grant'sbook Think Again?
Speaker 2 (28:06):
No, I have not.
I know Adam Grant though.
Speaker 4 (28:09):
It was a game changer for me.
And really he talks aboutcompletely secular thinking.
How do you move people from oneposition to another, like, how
do you take someone who'sentrenched in this position
Could be?
One chapter he does talks aboutvaccine hesitancy.
Another chapter he does talksabout you know, I'm from the
(28:31):
East Coast, so I know thisrivalry.
But Yankees fans and Red Soxfans they hate each other.
And so he talks about how canyou try to convince a Yankees
fan to say something positiveabout a Red Sox fan?
Can you try to convince aYankees fan to say something
positive about a Red Sox fan?
And the whole tenet of the bookis basically like telling people
what to do or think is theleast successful approach.
You know, direct instructiondoes not work.
(28:51):
Telling people the factsdoesn't work, but really getting
underneath, tim to your point,the story, the emotion, the why
you know, and then invitingpeople to ask you know, is it
possible that the same emotionalconnection you have to
residential theologicaleducation, someone else could
possibly have to a more localexperience?
(29:14):
Do you think that's possible,right?
And then you get the otherperson really to be like you
know.
Actually I think it could bepossible, right?
Well then, all of a sudden,you've kind of, you've moved a
little closer to the center,because you've heard each
other's stories and you validateeach other.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
It is very evident that power does not work in my
life, like, the more I try tocoerce, and every leader you got
to call it out, like everyleader has the potential to try
to use force to make things workRight.
And it just it.
Invitation, it's the power ofinvitation, and even the
invitation toward, toward change, like Jesus, is a very
(29:50):
invitational.
God made man come and follow meLike there was no force, there
was no compulsion.
It's just like okay, we've seensome good things.
Oh, here's this rabbi, let'scome and come into life.
No one was holding force overthe disciples and the other 70
to follow Jesus around.
There was an invitation.
He was attractive, right, Jack?
Speaker 3 (30:13):
Well, the Reformation spread because of force.
Right, like, hey, we want tohave conversations about rightly
understanding Scripture andgetting back to a, you know, a
more grace orientedunderstanding of like no, we're
not having that conversation.
It was force.
And because what was theresponse from that?
It I mean it it didn't have theimpact that they thought it was
going to have.
Right, by being forceful intheir approach.
Speaker 4 (30:37):
Tim, it's actually referred to as the paradox of
power, that the more you push,the more people push back.
And I mean, like I am I'm atype A, you guys probably, I'm
guessing you are as well Likewhen I feel like somebody is
trying to back me into a corner,that's actually where I put up
my that's, where I put up mydefenses, that's where I'm least
(30:57):
likely to change.
But when I get asked toreconsider my positions, or
invited to think again, orinvited to see things
differently or hear storiesabout it, that's when really
transformation happens.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
Yeah, exactly.
So you threw one book out.
I'll throw one right back atyou, leading Through by the
Clark family.
It's actually an LDS family,latter-day Saints.
He was the grandpa or thefather, I guess was a part of
the quorum of 70.
I looked him up online.
He was for like four years.
(31:31):
But the book is pure.
He's a Harvard Business Weeklytype review, just like a grant
book.
It's pure gold.
And what they do?
They've done a lot of research.
Harvard Business School hasdone a lot of research on the
characteristics of CEOs andcompanies that try to leverage
power over people Heavyhierarchy, lots of rules, lots
(31:53):
of policies and all this kind ofstuff over and against the
leaders that have a leadingthrough, people that make space
at the table.
And and it is very evident inthe corporate world and in the
not-for-profit I would saychurch world too that those who
make the choice, by the spirit'spower, to lead through with
(32:14):
people, rather than using powerover people, experience a lot
more.
And success is probably not theright word, it would be joy,
like there's a family, there'slove, I'm known, I'm seen and,
frankly, the word you know, it'slonely at the top.
I don't really, even though wehave structure, there's order,
we have policies, governance,all that kind of stuff right,
(32:35):
because we're leading throughpeople, with people.
I don't feel I don't feel lonely.
You know our pastoral team,we're not.
I don't feel lonely, ourpastoral team.
I don't leverage senior pastorhere.
That's not really in ourvernacular.
I'll use it if it's helpful.
Very rarely is.
It depends the setting thatyou're in.
And so I'm just one pastoramong many pastors here and we
all have differentresponsibilities, different
(32:56):
giftings, and we're doing ittogether.
Any kind of word toward thatparadigm between leading over
power, over over, rather thanleading through Brian.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
Yeah, it makes me happy to hear you say that, Tim,
that like, hey, I don't feellonely because you're in the
minority, According to the sixesabout clergy, that that role
feels very lonely for manypeople feels very lonely for
many people, and if you'refeeling that way anyone who's
listening, watching I wouldinvite you to think like, what
(33:29):
could I?
What could I redo or rethink sothat I don't get into that trap
of feeling so lonely Because,to your point, Tim, it shouldn't
feel that way.
You should feel like you'releading with others and that you
have people in your corner.
I am and I'm the only clergyperson on our staff at our
church, but I do not feel alone.
I feel like I'm on a team ofpeople all using our gifts in
different ways, all for theglory of God and the advancement
(33:49):
of the kingdom and reaching ourcommunity, and that feels
really good and that's the wayit should feel.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
Jack, team building is the antidote to loneliness,
it's kind of the way it goes,but also, like you said, tim,
having a um, a power-drivenapproach towards the team.
So there is always aresponsibility, like an
administrative responsibility,to, you know, veto things from
time to time and set guardrails.
But also, how do you createfreedom and the ability for
(34:17):
people to be creative and towork in their, you know, have a
authority and autonomy whereappropriate to be able to
actually live out their gifting?
So there's sometimes there's alittle bit of a balancing act on
that, but the key to not bealone is to is to not lead
authoritatively orauthoritarianly right With a
team, so that they see you aspart of the team, not somebody
(34:39):
that Lords over the team.
Right, that right.
I think that's the key thing.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Well, that's the balance that Jesus, that's the
cord that Jesus perfectly struck.
It was very evident that he hadauthority, All authority, and
evident in earth he speaks asone who has authority.
And yet even the crowds wentout into the wilderness.
I'm thinking the feeding of the5,000, right?
Even the crowds went out intothe wilderness.
I'm thinking the feeding of the5,000, right.
They got lost in love andfollowing and listening to Jesus
(35:06):
, so much so that they neededtheir physical needs met.
They were drawn close.
I think we should use ourimagination to picture who Jesus
is and how much he loves us.
He rejoices over us.
As the Father says.
Jesus is the beloved, so we arethe beloved of God.
(35:26):
Like God invites us near, as wedraw near to God, he draws near
to us.
He can't be any closer than heis right now.
It's just our awareness by thespirit's power to how radically
in love he is with us.
And and then you know God, hehas an alien side, a law.
You know wrath, fearful,fear-stricken side, but that's
(35:48):
not his primary dispositiontoward me.
His primary disposition is loveand care.
And he smiles over me and wesmile back.
I think the way you maybe thinkof God maybe can impact the way
you lead in the local church orin your business.
Is it a light touch?
Is it an invitational touchthat appears to be the way the
(36:08):
Triune God works, or is it aheavy, top-down, dictatorial
touch?
So you spend quite a bit oftime talking about our listening
God.
What's surprising to you abouthow God listens in both the Old
Testament and New Testament?
Brian?
Speaker 4 (36:20):
Thanks for asking that question.
I was hoping we were going togo there, but I mean, just for a
second listeners, wrap yourhead around the fact that the
God of all creation actuallylistens to ragamuffins and
knuckleheads like us.
I mean, give me a break.
I mean in the book I give theillustration of imagine if you
(36:42):
went to a driving range and uh,uh, tiger Woods or Phil
Mickelson, um, was, uh, was, washitting some balls and asked
you hey, brian, would you mindto give me a little swing advice
?
You know what I mean.
Like, what are you talkingabout?
You're the boss, you knoweverything, right?
Um, that's so foolish to eventhink about that.
That would actually happen.
That's so foolish to even thinkabout that.
That would actually happen.
That's, that's like Godactually listening to us times a
(37:04):
thousand, right.
How many times does the Biblepicture a God who bends his ear
to hear us?
And I guess the point I make inthe book is hey, if the Lord of
all creation, the one whobalances oxygen and nitrogen and
hydrogen and all the elementsof the earth just so we can
breathe, the one who manages allthat, actually also takes time
(37:26):
to listen to us, don't you thinkwe could pull back on our
desire to talk over somebody andto just listen to them, like
God does for us.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
You cut out there just for a second, Brian, but
I'm sure the audio wasabsolutely captured.
I heard the gist of it and itis audacious that God is so near
to us.
And what is it aboutPhilippians, chapter 2?
This is the way of the cross.
Right Connect, listening to theway of the cross and the
humility of Christ.
Speaker 4 (37:59):
Tim, you're so good at this vocation of asking
questions, I was hoping you weregoing to do Philippians 2 as
well.
I love that.
Jesus Christ did not considerequality with God something to
be grasped as though, like tohang on to it, but rather made
himself nothing, coming down todeal and be relationally,
(38:20):
incarnationally with us.
So, like that is the model, nothierarchical, I'm going to own
you, I'm going to lead you andtell you what to do, but I'm
going to come down andcondescend like dwell among you
and be among you and berelational with you and listen
to you and care about you andwalk with you, and everyone
turns their back on you.
I won't.
(38:40):
That's the ministry and postureJesus takes in humanity.
So don't you think we ought totake that same approach
interpersonally, relationally,pastorally?
That's the model for ministry.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
Yes and well, that's what the early church did.
You had to listen as the gospelwent out across culture.
We are teaching a class rightnow and we had our students walk
through Alan Hirsch's bookReformation.
It came out right during COVID,just like your book did, so it
(39:15):
didn't get quite the tractionthat he and the team were hoping
for, and we don't agree withabsolutely everything in the
book.
There are some things he saysthat are a little I don't know
if I'd agree with that, andthat's okay.
But we talked about the book asa model for us having really
healthy dialoguecross-culturally.
Like Jesus in the early churchwere masters at saying you've
(39:37):
heard it said this, or you'reconnected to a God who does this
.
Let me tell you about a God whodoes this, or the creator of
all things.
I think maybe go here.
I think we need to get betterat connecting first article
First article simply means howGod works in creation to the
second article, how he's madehimself known in the person and
(39:57):
work of Jesus, and that bridgefrom first to second article is
the art of listening.
Anything more to say there,brian?
Speaker 4 (40:03):
Because the early church nailed it.
Yeah, exactly.
And I would say I do a chapterin the book about the.
This is like the posture amissionary ought to take, which,
by the way, we ought to reallythink of ourselves in that too,
because culture has radicallychanged, even in like the 15
years that I've been in ministryat this location, like are the
(40:28):
way in which, like, the worldaround us views the church has
changed.
I tell the story of LeslieNewbigin.
You know, missiologist,extraordinaire, grows up in
England, departs, leaves for youknow, 50, 60, 70 years, does
great mission work, comes backand finds that England has
radically changed and the churchis taking the same approach it
took when he left right.
And so he's like hey, we got toactually listen to the needs
(40:52):
and questions that our culture,the hurts that our culture has.
If we seek, if we want toactually reach them with the
gospel, we've got to firstlisten to them and listen to
their stories and listen totheir pain points.
And so you know, there is atouch point between listening
and the mission of God, which tome are like two sides of the
same point.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
Yeah, that's absolutely.
Hey.
Last couple of questionsgetting practical what does it
mean to live?
Oci?
Oci, open, curious, inquisitive?
That's a great handle, dude.
Oci, let's live it.
Speaker 4 (41:22):
Thank you.
Yeah, I just I noticed there's800 CSI shows.
You know CSI Orlando, csi LasVegas.
I'm like there's got to be away that we can remember this.
And so OCI to me is like theposture I take as I enter into
relationships or conversations,or you know the person that you
were next to in the choral group10 that you were in, which is
(41:47):
I'm going to be open, whichmeans like I actually am going
to believe that I can learnsomething from this person, that
I'm not going to prejudge thembased on how they look or their
political opinions or whatever.
I'm open to change.
Curious means that's theposture I take, like hey, well,
tell me more about that Like.
And then inquisitive means likethat's actually what I'm going
to do, is I'm going to askquestions to get to the bottom
of their story.
So to me it's just rememberlike, rather than I don't want
(42:09):
to waste my life talking aboutfootball and the weather, I'm
tired of talking about thosethings, let's talk about things
that matter.
And to me that means likeasking questions that start with
taking.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
So let's get super practical.
Here we talk about the LC onthe other side of the globe.
Speaker 4 (42:48):
Just picture, like Indonesia or something right, if
you were there, planted withthe hope of bringing the gospel
to that people, what posturewould you take toward that
community?
And number two, what posturewould you take towards fellow
Christians?
And number two, what posturewould you take towards fellow
Christians?
And I think if I was inIndonesia and I found a fellow
(43:10):
Christian, I would not becritiquing their worship
services, I wouldn't be mockingthem for what they wear on
Sunday or don't wear, whatinstruments they use or don't
use or anything.
I could care less about that.
I'm in a culture that's tryingto reach an unreached people
(43:32):
group.
If I found a Christian, I woulddo cartwheels to just be with
them and not friendly fire them.
So to me, as I think about ourculture, man, if we elevated the
posture of asking questions toour community because we are now
in Indonesia, the world aroundus has radically changed.
We're in a post-Christiancontext, so we cannot presume
that the way the church reachedme is the way the church is
going to reach somebody else.
(43:53):
I've got to ask questions ofthe culture and secondly, we've
got to ask questions of oneanother.
We cannot keep biting oneanother and critiquing one
another and prejudging oneanother and putting one another
in camps.
It is devastating to us aswe're hoping to reach our
community and culture.
Speaker 3 (44:12):
There does seem to be more hospitality, maybe in our
church body, with a diversity ofworship expression, let's say a
diversity of pastoral formation, you know, with some of the
global church bodies than wehave with our own selves, right
that we seem to hold ourselvesmaybe to a more narrow, stricter
(44:32):
standard than we do, and Idon't know where that comes from
, why we're comfortable,internationally maybe, having
this broader standard that wehold ourselves, that we hold
Christians to, than when we dowith our own national church
body.
I think it's very interesting.
Speaker 4 (44:49):
I have an opinion about that.
Tim.
But to me it's like in that, inthat environment, somehow we're
just so focused and that themission is everything and and
and so those other things becometertiary, like we're not going
to mess around with stuff.
That's a waste of time, right,but for whatever reason we've
lost that sense of that beingour primary thing, and so then
(45:11):
we take time that shouldn't bespent biting one another.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
Well, it's what happens when the church forgets
that she exists because thekingdom of God is advancing and
God wants to get all of his kidsback.
I don't know.
You can't put ecclesiology overthe mission.
If you miss that, it'sChristology, it's missiology and
it's ecclesiology in that orderhow we live together as the
(45:37):
church, because we can talkabout if we agree on Christ and
the mission to reach and seekand save the lost.
I mean Luke 15, can we agree on?
He left the 99 to get the one.
She sweeps the house to findthe lost coin.
They rejoice when the prodigalcomes home.
Like God is very evidently amission orienting sending God.
(45:58):
The father sent the son, thefather and son sent the Holy
Spirit to try and God sent thechurch.
This is just the way, the scopeof the narrative.
If we can agree on that, thento use your Indonesia, you
actually have the foundation forappropriate conversation around
ecclesiastical differences ofopinion and really, adiaphora.
(46:21):
I really like God has met me inthis.
This isn't in the Bible exactlyhow this, but we should do
things reverently, in good order.
I think there are some bestpractices for how we talk about
formation and worship oranything else or leadership in
general, the role of the pastor,how the priesthood of all
believers kind of interacts, andwe can kind of say, okay, yeah,
(46:42):
let's get into it.
And then in your context, I'mgonna, I'm going to trust you,
I'm going to trust you with itbecause we, we have kept it.
In any organization, if you donot have agreement on the
mission and the values and youmay think this is corporate,
this just is what is if youdon't have agreement on that,
then what should beappropriately discussed and and
(47:05):
you kind of are a little bitmore charitable with it you
recognize concept.
If you miss on the foundation,which is the mission of God,
you're going to miss on therelational stuff and those small
ecclesial things which they aresmall in terms of like eternity
.
In terms of our main mission,they become the main thing.
And it appears as if thePharisees had that tendency,
(47:27):
didn't they?
I mean, jesus comes.
We're preaching on the washedhands.
Why don't your disciples?
Washing your hands is a verygood thing, ritual cleansing in
the Old Testament is a very goodthing, but Jesus knows the
heart.
Their hearts are far from theydidn't want let me land it this
way this was a big epiphany forme the Pharisaical tendency.
They don't really want tolisten or get to know Jesus.
(47:48):
They're listening fromcondemnation and
self-righteousness.
And we should have the postureof the disciples bumbly, stumbly
, curious connected to Jesussent by the Holy Spirit at
Pentecost.
That was, and can Phariseeschange?
Because we all got Pharisee inus, right For sure.
(48:11):
Daily repentance is saying Iwant to justify myself, I want
to make myself righteous beforeGod, based on what I do and
based on the people that I hangout with.
And that is the height of sin,and confession and absolution is
the way of Jesus, which leadsus to a humble posture toward
those whom we disagree with.
Last thing here I rarely listento comments.
Who knows what comments peopleare going to like.
It's not good for my spirit orwhatever.
(48:33):
It's not good on either end.
Oh, way to go.
Or oh, you suck, you're theworst, you know, whatever.
But if our team says, oh, tim,you should respond to this one,
this is interesting I'll sayyeah, just send me.
I'm not going to get into adebate with anybody via the
written word.
I've spoken and that's it.
If you want to have aconversation, send me an email.
Do you know how many peoplehave?
(48:53):
Over the last number of yearsI've been doing podcasts that
I've left a little blurb.
Here's my email talman atcglchurchorg.
Do you know how many peoplethat disagree with me have sent
me an email?
Speaker 4 (49:02):
Zero.
That's incredible.
Speaker 2 (49:05):
Zero who have made those kinds of comments.
Now I've talked to people thatI disagree with.
You know around differentthings, but if you're like
bombing on social media, youjust want to drop the bomb and
you want to bounce.
You don't want to actually getto know me or or any of the it's
the same dialogue.
Speaker 3 (49:19):
You just want to proclaim your point and let it
go.
Speaker 2 (49:23):
That's it.
So let's work on that LCMS, andwe at the ULC are ready to set
space toward that end, Brian.
Any final comments?
Man, this has been so much fun.
Speaker 4 (49:32):
Thanks so much for the conversation, thanks for the
work you're doing, and mayGod's good work in all of us
continue.
Speaker 2 (49:37):
Amen, it's a privilege.
This is lead time.
Please like, subscribe, comment.
Wherever it is you take inthese conversations, the joy of
Jesus is our strength, he is ourrefuge, our ever-present help
in times of trouble, and this isprobably released during Lent.
May your Lenten journey to thecross of Jesus Christ give you
the hope that death does not win, life wins.
(49:59):
Jesus is alive, he is reigningand he sent his spirit to move
us out with humility into hismission and dive right in man.
The water's great, the water'swarm, and let's get after it.
So thanks Brian, thanks Jack,excellent work.
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
Speaker 3 (50:16):
It's been a pleasure listening to you all.
Speaker 4 (50:20):
Well played, let's go , let's go.
Speaker 1 (50:26):
You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the
Unite Leadership Collective.
The ULC's mission is tocollaborate with the local
church to discover, develop anddeploy leaders through biblical
Lutheran doctrine and innovativemethods To partner with us in
this gospel message.
Subscribe to our channel, thengo to theuniteleadershiporg to
create your free login forexclusive material and resources
and then to explore ways inwhich you can sponsor an episode
(50:48):
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Thanks for listening and staytuned for next week's episode.
This is Lead Time.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Welcome to Lead Time.
Tim Allman here with JackKauberg.
Jack, loving life dudeAbsolutely.
Speaker 3 (00:08):
Having a great time today.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
These are beautiful full days, the Lord you know.
We're just getting out of ameeting for generosity and
hearing neat stories aboutmission and people falling more
in love with Jesus.
We just from a ChristGreenfield perspective.
We just got clearance from thetown of Gilbert to put up our
new digital sign.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
New LED sign.
Yes, New LED.
Yeah, we were super pumpedabout that.
We had to do a study on howlight would reflect off the
ground and our vendors like I'venever heard of that before.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
So, goofy, so goofy.
And then we're also coming offof Ash Wednesday and I got to
preach a of times yesterday atAsh Wednesday and it felt our,
our evening service, our noonservice, is actually very full,
but the evening service waspacked to the brim.
We may have to think aboutdoing two Ash Wednesday evening
services.
So yeah, I said full, just likejust like when.
(00:59):
I don't know what you thinkabout President Trump and his
speech the other day.
People have a variety ofperspectives, but I think he's
funny if you have the right lensto kind of see him, because
when he comes back and sayswe're back, baby, you know, it's
like Christ Greenfield, we'reback, we're back from COVID.
Like let's not do that again,you know, let's keep people in
the house of the Lord and listendeeply to one another.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
Jack, what do you want to say to Trump?
Speaker 1 (01:26):
This is the best Ash.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Wednesday ever Never experienced anything like it.
His hyperbole is like over thetop.
This is the greatest churchyou've never seen.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
There's never been a church.
We are 90 seconds into this.
We're already going down thisroad, man.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Why not?
Why not?
Yeah, all right, so let meintroduce you to our guest,
brian Davies.
He is a pastor at Lord of GloryLutheran Church in Grayslake,
illinois, and a chaplain.
This is cool for Grayslake FireDepartment and Round Lake Fire
Protection District.
Love that you're out in thecommunity like that.
Brother Davies graduated fromConcordia River Forest, now
(02:03):
Concordia university, chicago,played football there.
He was a guard four years.
You didn't miss a star, did you?
You?
Speaker 4 (02:10):
were healthy.
Pretty much I was.
Thank you to God, I was everysnap.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
That is hardcore dude .
And he studied communications,biblical languages.
He went on to earn his MDiv.
He's mastered the divine no,the divine has mastered him At
Concordia Seminary, st Louis, heand his wife Beth.
They have three children Kate,megan and Luke, and I just heard
that his daughter I'll let youdrop it, your daughter is a
(02:33):
really good senior softball orjunior softball player that just
has made her commitment.
Where's she going to play?
Speaker 4 (02:40):
He's going to play at Loyola University in Chicago.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Top 100 program in the country.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
And having a lot of fun.
She's still got her junior yearand senior year to enjoy.
And the other day she said tous I kind of have senioritis and
I'm like, no, you don't, You'rea junior.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
You've got a lot of work still to do, but, wendy,
already knows where she's going,but the coach has been awesome
to her and it's a very generousoffer and a great opportunity
for her.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Good for her.
He also is the author ofConnected to Christ.
Overcoming Isolation ThroughCommunity.
Was that with ConcordiaPublishing?
Speaker 4 (03:13):
House.
It was yeah, it broke out right.
It was released right aroundCOVID.
I wrote a book about findingcommunity in the midst of COVID,
which is crazy to think about.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Wow, so you were writing something on overcoming
isolation before COVID came out.
I was, yeah, okay.
Well, yeah, we needed help withthat.
We definitely do, and todaywe're going to be talking about
the book CaptivatingConversations how Christians Can
Reclaim the Lost Art ofListening.
It just recently came out.
It's published also by CPH.
(03:44):
So how are you doing, brian?
Thanks for spending time withus, buddy.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
I'm awesome, I appreciate the opportunity to
visit with you guys and thanksfor the work that you guys are
doing, both in your localministry and also just your work
of elevating really importantconversations and, as the author
of a book that highlights theimportance of conversations,
right, I value them and I thinkwe need more long form ones.
We need less tweet and attacksand we need more sitting,
(04:11):
listening and asking questions,and I think we can learn a lot
from Jesus approach.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
That's a fact.
There's your clip right therefor Instagram.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
There you go yeah, more, more facts, and the fact
is we need relationship, and weneed to build deeper trust over
time with relationship, and solet's get into this.
How is listening?
You know, everybody wants tospeak, everybody wants to tweet,
everybody wants to get theirword out.
How is listening, though?
(04:39):
And as we even talk about this,this is like the main reason I
like podcasts is because I thinkpeople are fascinating and I
want to ask them questions andlisten to them and grow, grow
with them.
But how is it?
A lost art you mentioned this alost art, even for Christians,
brian.
Let's start there.
Speaker 4 (04:56):
Yeah, and I would affirm you, tim, for taking that
posture of curiosity right.
Unfortunately, that isabsolutely a lost art.
Right, unfortunately, that isabsolutely a lost art.
We are in a culture where weprejudge one another based on
the camp that they're in ortheir appearance, or all the
ways in which we judge oneanother.
And we don't take the time toactually hey, what leads you to
(05:17):
come to that conclusion?
Right, and I observed it inculture.
I think you guys have observedit, probably all of your
listeners and those watching onYouTube have observed it and
we're tired of it.
We don't want to live in thatworld anymore.
It is not a good world to livein.
And the reality is, as yousurvey the landscape of the
approach Jesus takes, dude, ifthere was ever anyone who should
(05:39):
just come down and tell peopleanswers, it's Jesus.
But the reality is, theapproach he takes is comes down
to earth and sit, listens andask questions of people for that
very purpose, cause he knowsthat's really what's going to
lead to transformation of humanhearts.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
There's no doubt.
What is it about the West Likeyou do a little bit of writing
here, the culture in the West.
That's most challenging,especially as it relates to
listening.
And what is our hope right nowas we look at culture starting
to change?
I think there's.
I'll just tee it up this way.
I think there's greaterevidence and I think,
(06:16):
anecdotally and there may besome surveys people could find
where people's hearts are opentoward mystery, toward
spirituality, toward a God whowants to speak to them and they
in turn, listen.
They just don't know he's inthe person and form of Jesus.
So how is it challenging herein the West to listen?
(06:38):
What are some of those biggestchallenges, brian?
Speaker 4 (06:40):
Well, first of all, I think what's modeled for us by
our leaders, by what we see onTV and cable, to new shows and
and quick bites on Instagram orsocial media, are hot takes.
And how do you win an argumentand how do you best the other
person?
And the reality is that is theleast successful approach in
(07:05):
human relationships, right?
So if you're saying like, hey,I had this conversation and then
I said something and then theyhad nothing to say you know
people brag about that and myfirst thought is that's really
unfortunate Then that means thatstopped the conversation.
Isn't the goal to get toresolution?
Isn't the goal to get to adeeper understanding?
If you said something thatstopped the conversation, isn't
the goal to get to resolution?
Isn't the goal to get to adeeper understanding?
(07:25):
If you said something thatstopped the conversation, that's
not a win, that's a loss.
So I think, unfortunately, allthese things are getting modeled
for us that we've got to, we'vegot to beat the other person
when reality, the win comes whenwe sit down and get to know one
another better and get to knoweach other's personal histories,
and then where do we findcommon ground?
Speaker 3 (07:46):
That's the.
I mean, that's the caption thatyou see on social media See
this person getting owned or seethis person getting shut down
right, exactly.
Speaker 4 (07:54):
And so, unfortunately , we see that and we think, oh
so, that's what we're supposedto do, right, that's what I'm
supposed to do, I got to win, Igot to win.
And I think, unfortunately, theapproach that gets the most
likes is the approach that isthe least successful.
You know, around the dinnertable or in human relationships
or in the conference room at thechurch, I mean, like, if you're
(08:16):
trying to beat the other person, you've lost.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Well, it evidently doesn't work.
There's a lot of studysociologically on developmental
stages in children and betweenzero and three.
You know we're hypernarcissists.
Everything is about me and theysay something clicks around
three or four, as kids start toplay with one another.
(08:40):
Oh, I can't hit, I can't bite.
You know this makes people notlike me.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
And.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
I need, I need, I need people.
So one of my favorite JordanPeterson quotes from a book I
think it was 12 Rules orsomething like that.
But don't let your kids doanything that makes you dislike
them.
So why and it's true, like wedon't do that here and I think
sometimes we've not wanted as asadults with our kids or who
(09:06):
really likes to tell that personyou know you can't.
That behavior is sociallyinappropriate, like that's
uncomfortable.
No one really likes to do that.
But we've got to be close enoughand this is where it gets to
leadership.
Right, you have to have otherpeople that are close enough to
you.
Do you realize how you cameacross right now?
And for me, learning has beenTim.
You can be intense, you know,and that intensity can build a
(09:33):
wall for other people to notconnect to you.
So you need and you're a biggerguy, you're a football guy,
right, and I'm not like huge,but even like you're when you're
with people, you need to bephysical posture, like you got
to pay attention to your EQ, theway you connect to people and
the way you do.
You have to ask more questionsrather than talk.
Let me like you've been alongtime pastor.
I've been a longtime pastor.
We can't pastor for a length oftime apart from developing
(09:59):
curiosity for what's going on inthe lives of our people.
Right, If I just come in anddictate and just tell, that's
not gonna work.
If I invite and ask questionsover time, that works.
That builds team.
That builds trust.
Anything more to say aboutpastoral ministry and listening?
Speaker 4 (10:14):
Brian, a lot actually .
And first I'll just say, youknow, remember the Lord Jesus
Christ, who obviously comes downto earth and we see his earthly
ministry.
He's the one who created us, sohe knows human nature.
He knows that the best approachin interpersonal relationships
is gonna be community, is gonnabe asking questions, sitting,
listening and letting peopleprocess.
So it would make sense thatkind of the architect of us, the
(10:36):
creator of us, would take thatapproach because he knows it's
the most successful.
And I would say, tim, to yourpoint about pastoral ministry,
and I would make this too interms of any vocation that your
listeners and viewers are in.
It just makes life a lot moreinteresting.
Like, for example, like youknow, I'll go have a breakfast
meeting with someone in ourcongregation who's the AD
athletic director of a verylarge high school, suburban high
(10:58):
school.
You know, before I would listento podcasts or something on the
way there, but I started alittle while ago, using that
drive time to think of, hey,what can I learn from this
person if I'm going to havebreakfast with them, right?
So then I started going intothose moments being like, hey,
well, this person is a leader.
This person probablydisappoints people, like I do
(11:19):
sometimes.
So I started using thosemoments to be like hey, tell me
about your vocation and problemsI have I'm having, and pick his
brain a little bit and do youthink that meeting then is a lot
more interesting for him?
Absolutely Right.
Cause he gets to talk about hisvocation and he feels listened
to, he feels heard, he feelsvalued.
So I think it makes it makesthe role of the listener a lot
(11:42):
more interesting, but also italso makes the relationship a
lot stronger with the personyou're trying to reach.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Well, yeah, and we're talking all the time.
They have to listen to us for,you know, 20 minutes a week or
whatever, they hear all thisstuff.
You know that's one of theweird things about ministry is
there's a lot of people thatknow way more about me than I
know about them, and so I guess,to land it, you can't know
everybody deeply, but do youhave pastor some and I don't
(12:09):
care if your church is a hundredpeople or you know 10,000
people, whatever Do you havesome sort of a rhythm for going
out to get lunch and coffee andjust not just with your top
donors, but like as the Lordbrings someone to mind?
I interacted with a brother.
I was in the choir for twofestival choirs in our
congregation.
It was so fun.
Our music director is soamazing and I didn't have to do
(12:30):
anything else but just be a partof the choir.
I sat next to Norm the entiretime, right, and I was like Norm
.
I heard about his son, who's apastor up in Nevada, and I was
like Norm I'd love to get lunchwith you sometime.
And what do you know, todaypopped up on my calendar.
I told Don, hey, could you getthis scheduled?
This was like a month ago or so, norm popped up on my calendar.
(12:52):
Today Cindy, his wife showed up.
We had Culver's.
I listened to their story,which was a random choice.
They wanted to go to Culver'sand then they got which I never
eat dessert at like noon and hebrought me out this dessert but
we just had a.
I did eat it.
I not all of it, but I did eatit.
Uh, cause it would have beendisrespectful not to um, but man
, I just listened to them forlike an hour and it was the best
(13:14):
it is the best.
What other time would I have hadLike, get me and this is maybe
where a bridge of love and careand understanding, pastoral
visitation, may be a lost artright.
Get into people's homes and ifthey don't want you in their
home, go out for coffee or lunchwith them.
You should have budgetedresources toward that end.
(13:35):
Anything more to add towardgetting to know your people well
, brian?
Speaker 4 (13:37):
Yeah, I would say, you know, that's a part of my
vocation as a parish pastor andprobably many of the folks that
are listening who had thatvocation, my vocation as a
parish pastor, and probably manyof the folks that are listening
who had that vocation, like wesee our shut ins right Folks,
folks not able to get out a lot,and for a part of my ministry
those were kind of perfunctory,like, hey, just do the thing, do
a devotion, you know, talkabout the weather.
And then I said, holy cow, hereI am, I get to sit for 45
(14:02):
minutes with someone who's 93years old.
Do you think I could ask somequestions that might I might
learn something from them?
And so I started asking thisquestion hey, you've probably
lived through times in ourculture that were very divided.
Is this the most divided timeyou've ever seen our culture?
Well, if you ask people who arein their nineties, they lived
(14:23):
through some pretty divisivetimes and they have a lot to say
about it.
And I find like, hey, all of asudden those 45 minutes go like
that and they feel heard, theyfeel listened to, they feel
valued and this it makesministry a lot more interesting.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Yes, so good.
So let's get into Jesus.
How does Jesus help us becomebetter listeners?
Tell some stories about Jesus.
I know there's data out thereabout how many questions Jesus
realized holy cow.
Like this stuff is actuallymodeled in the Bible for us,
right.
Speaker 4 (15:10):
And so I kind of backdoored into like, hey, if
you read the Gospels, theministry of Jesus Christ,
through the lens of the approachhe takes in interpersonal
relationships, once you see it,you will not unsee it.
He asks a ridiculous amount ofquestions and it comes from the
very beginning of his ministry,luke chapter two.
Jesus is left behind in thetemple as a 12 year old boy and
(15:33):
Luke records for us that he'sfound there sitting, listening
and asking questions.
And the rest of his ministry ismarked by asking people
questions that oftentimes healready knows the answers to,
because he knows that the act ofasking that question and
inviting them into reflection isgoing to lead them into the
(15:54):
breakthrough that he wants tosee happen in them.
And so oftentimes we take theapproach of okay, I want to move
this person from here to there,I just need to tell them what
to do, or tell them what tothink.
The reality is that is theleast successful, statistically
speaking, approach to take.
If you want to change someone'smind, the least successful
(16:14):
approach is to tell them what todo or think, and Jesus knew it.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
Brian, I was just reading in a small group, mark,
the story of the woman with thebleeding problem touches touches
jesus's garments, yeah, andshe's healed and he says who
touched me?
Like he knew who touched didthat, but that question was
important.
I love that one.
Having a confession of faithfrom her is what it was right he
(16:42):
gave her.
He gave her an opportunity toconfess her faith and then he
said your faith is what healedyou right.
Speaker 4 (16:47):
Isn't that great, yeah.
And once you start to look forthose moments, you never.
You see them all over the place, the feeding of the 5,000.
He even asked them well, howmuch do you have?
You know?
Meaning, I actually want you totake inventory of this so that
(17:07):
you can look back and be likeholy cow, how did this happen?
From this and the question, themere question, says I actually
want to involve you in the workthat I'm just about to do.
I can do it on my own, but Iwant to use what you have and
what you're going to bring and Iwant you to take inventory of
it before you do it.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Yeah, so let's get into the specific questions.
What are the questions that arecentral to Jesus ministry?
You got to end chapter four.
Speaker 4 (17:29):
Oh boy, there's a lot of those, but I would go to
like.
He asks Peter, who do you saythat I am Right?
What, what, what, what?
First he starts with you knowwhat's the word on the street
about me?
Who do people say that I am?
Which is a question he, ofcourse, would have known, like
he would have if anyone knew theword on the street.
It would have been Jesus, formany reasons.
(17:49):
But then he says well, who doyou?
What about you?
Who do you say that I am?
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Which I think is a let's pause on that really quick
.
Was Jesus concerned about brandHis brand, because that's a
brand question.
What are people saying about me?
What's my personal brand rightnow?
And it was a mixed.
His success was mixed, thereviews were very mixed.
The Pharisees were not excited.
(18:13):
Is he just a prophet?
Obviously, they kind of knew.
So yeah, what other questions?
Speaker 4 (18:18):
Yeah, I think back to that, like one of the functions
of that question was to invitethe disciples to think okay,
well, what are people saying?
You know, like, what is theword on the street and what do I
make of that?
And then it comes down to well,what about you?
Who do you say that I am?
And then I think other timesit's um, I always like the one,
um, someone else who has aphysical ailment, and Jesus asks
(18:40):
what do you want me to do foryou?
You know which I mean?
Obviously, if you had thephilosophical, I mean that is so
top of mind for you, it'severything right.
But to Jack's point, it's likeit invites that person to
reflect on what do I really wantto see change?
What do I really want to seehappen in my life?
Speaker 3 (18:58):
I think pastoral care is so interwoven with questions
, right?
People will ask a question Alot of times.
The best way is to ask aquestion back to understand what
is the real heart of thequestion, right, why do you want
to know?
Right, that's something thatthey ask pastors to ask that
question why do you want to knowthat answer?
Because, depending on why youwant to know, that's the right
(19:19):
way to approach the answer.
Speaker 4 (19:21):
Yeah, and I've personally found that, Jack,
that is a good question.
Why do you want to know I foundthat that can be a little
off-putting Like why?
Speaker 3 (19:30):
do you want to?
Speaker 4 (19:30):
know Right, and so, like I prefer the simple hey,
could you tell me more aboutthat?
Yeah, I want to make sure Iunderstand exactly kind of what
you're getting at.
Tell me more about what?
Tell me more about that Becausepeople actually like to talk.
Statistics reveal that ifyou're in a conversation with
somebody and you're kind oftaking the posture of curiosity
(19:51):
toward them and they get to talkabout themselves, the same
hormones are released withinthem as when they're eating a
delicious steak and wine dinnerSomething firing in your brain
like satisfaction joy.
So when you ask a question likehey, tell me more, I actually
want to hear from you.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
That's like oh really yes.
Yeah, Tell me more is anawesome question.
It's actually any type ofconversation.
You can just have it a betterconversation by saying tell me
more.
Speaker 4 (20:19):
A hundred percent, because oftentimes and we've
seen this in interpersonalrelationships the first thing is
rarely the thing right, likeyou've got to get underneath the
thing that's presented to getto the real truth, right?
So can you maybe, as simple asit feels like there's a little
more that's underneath that?
Could you tell me more aboutthat?
Speaker 2 (20:38):
That's so good.
What is the role of listeningin difficult conversations?
We talk about difficultconversations a lot Intent
impact, maintaining curiosityand things like that.
What is the role of questions,though, Because you guys are
kind of hinting at it a littlebit more?
Any more words of wisdom as itrelates to the conversation?
You'd rather not have, but youknow you need to have.
Speaker 4 (21:00):
Yeah, I did a whole chapter in the book about
listening in the midst ofconflict, and the first thing,
the first move I would makewould be and Tim and Jack, you
guys have done a phenomenal jobwith that on this podcast, which
is normalizing healthyconversations where there's
disagreement Is it okay for us,as Christians, to have a little
(21:22):
bit of a disagreement aboutsomething?
The answer is yes, right, and Ithink there's someone I know.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Try to find a church where that doesn't exist.
Exactly Right.
So how do you do it healthy,right?
Speaker 4 (21:33):
There's a gentleman I know by the name of Les Stroh.
Maybe you know him.
He's in the Lutheran leadershipworld.
His quote, which I love, is um,conflict is inevitable, enemies
are optional.
Um, which I absolutely love,and it just like, from the
beginning, let's normalize that,hey, we're going to just see
things different.
Um, um, and just off the batsay that doesn't mean that we
(21:57):
can't be friends, it doesn'tmean that we can't be, um,
fellow sisters and brothers inChrist.
But let's just say, hey, we'regoing to see this, we're going
to see this thing differently.
So that would be step one.
And then number two would bewhen we get this into the book,
like ask questions so you get tothe bottom of what's actually
leading the person to think oract in that certain way.
Is we make preconceived notionsabout the other person's
(22:25):
position or opinion based onprevious experiences we've had
with people who have thatposition or opinion which may
not be applicable to that personat all, and so we're way better
off getting underneath what itis that's leading them to think
or act that way.
That can actually get them to.
Oh, so that's your concernabout this initiative, or that's
(22:46):
your concern about thispossible change that we're
thinking about making Now.
I understand that Now I canadequately address it, but until
you get underneath, and thebest way to get underneath is
through questions.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
Yeah, I'm thinking of conversations around difference
of opinion.
We talk formation on here allthe time.
I could do a better job oftrying to get to know the story
of why the person so deeplybelieves in residential only
(23:19):
being the gold standard.
And there's a lot of people inour world, not just seminary
presidents, there's a lot ofpeople who really, really
believe that and it's probablybecause, like me, they were
touched, changed.
That encounter with Jesus,connected to a professor,
face-to-face in a classroom,radically shifted their point of
(23:39):
view.
I mean, this is bestconstruction and you just want
more people to have that sort ofview.
And I mean this is bestconstruction and you just want
more people to have that sort ofexperience.
And why wouldn't you want thatsame experience, right?
But it's probably some sort ofan emotional connection to that
space, right?
And we're all enfleshed,creatured, embodied people that
develop culture, systems andstructures that are really
(24:01):
really helpful and and itcenters us, it centers us in in
our relationship with God.
Maybe another what is it about?
The liturgy?
And we're talking like all ofthe liturgy smells bells, like
all of all, all of it, like thedepth of the Lutheran liturgy.
For those of us who disagree,well, it's probably because you
had an amazing encounter.
(24:24):
It's probably because you cameout of Jack, like your story.
You came out of a faithexperience that really left you
wounded and wondering where Godis, and now you experience the
mystery, the gravity, thereverential presence of God.
You're just wholly struck by itand you just want other people
to experience that.
(24:44):
I think in those two likethere's stories connected to
that.
So why can't we just connectand then to land the plane?
As it relates to contemporary ora modern worship experience,
they met Jesus deeply and therewas a drum on the stage right
and they just want more peopleto know.
It's all story.
So how do we ask enoughquestions to get behind the
(25:07):
scenes?
It's not just about strategy,structure, institutional
preservation.
Listen, because I get to sharemy story.
I think a lot of people knowwhy I like both styles of
worship and why now.
(25:28):
So let me get back to theconversation on formation right,
the reason I'm so passionateabout it is because I have a
story being in context where alot of leaders are being raised
up, and why wouldn't everybodywant to have a whole bunch of
leaders raised up?
So it's all story, jack.
Any follow-up to that?
Speaker 3 (25:45):
No, I mean really, what we're boiling it down to is
can we be charitable in ourdisagreement and realize that
and I have to say this aboutmyself it's like there's a
positive reason.
There may be a flip side to ittoo.
That may be an unhealthy reason.
There's a positive reason.
There may be a flip side to it,too.
That may be an unhealthy reason.
Both of those could be true.
At the same time, when I take avery strong position on
(26:07):
something right, a truth, andmaybe because I'm holding on to
that truth so much, maybesomething blinders that I'm
wearing around that topic, Iwant to be totally honest and
say, like we're talking aboutissues of orthodoxy and
innovation.
You know reallywell-established ways of doing
(26:28):
things and innovative ways ofdoing things, and in that
process, we could be overlynarrow in how we think or we
could be reckless in how we canthink, and those are two things
like we have to be totallyhonest that that conversation,
that's a space that we'reexploring right now, and you can
have really good intentions orreally bad intentions about
trying to be overly restrictive,overly broad, right, we don't
(26:50):
want to be reckless, right, wealso don't want to be narrow.
So, like this is a toughconversation.
It's messy.
Conversations around this isreally messy.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Yeah, it is, and story is what gets us more to
the middle.
That conversations around thisis really messy, yeah, it is,
and story is what gets us moreto the middle.
Speaker 4 (27:06):
That's right.
Story is what gets us to thetable.
Brian, go ahead.
Yeah, tim, I would just affirmyou for that observation about
yourself.
Like, hey, I could use morequestions, right.
I would observe, like, havingseen you do your work pretty
publicly on this podcast, likeyou are working hard at it, you
are trying to model it and I seeit, and I think other people
see it I think there's room forall of us to make that move.
(27:27):
I think, instinctively, we comeoff watching, you know,
political news soundbites wherepeople just think if I say it
louder or more emotionally tied,it's going to work.
But but you know it never doesRight.
So when you're, my trick islike when my instinct tells me
(27:48):
to just say it again or say itmore passionately, I totally go
the other way and say whatquestion can I ask in this
moment that's actually going topossibly lead to a breakthrough?
Have you guys read Adam Grant'sbook Think Again?
Speaker 2 (28:06):
No, I have not.
I know Adam Grant though.
Speaker 4 (28:09):
It was a game changer for me.
And really he talks aboutcompletely secular thinking.
How do you move people from oneposition to another, like, how
do you take someone who'sentrenched in this position
Could be?
One chapter he does talks aboutvaccine hesitancy.
Another chapter he does talksabout you know, I'm from the
(28:31):
East Coast, so I know thisrivalry.
But Yankees fans and Red Soxfans they hate each other.
And so he talks about how canyou try to convince a Yankees
fan to say something positiveabout a Red Sox fan?
Can you try to convince aYankees fan to say something
positive about a Red Sox fan?
And the whole tenet of the bookis basically like telling people
what to do or think is theleast successful approach.
You know, direct instructiondoes not work.
(28:51):
Telling people the factsdoesn't work, but really getting
underneath, tim to your point,the story, the emotion, the why
you know, and then invitingpeople to ask you know, is it
possible that the same emotionalconnection you have to
residential theologicaleducation, someone else could
possibly have to a more localexperience?
(29:14):
Do you think that's possible,right?
And then you get the otherperson really to be like you
know.
Actually I think it could bepossible, right?
Well then, all of a sudden,you've kind of, you've moved a
little closer to the center,because you've heard each
other's stories and you validateeach other.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
It is very evident that power does not work in my
life, like, the more I try tocoerce, and every leader you got
to call it out, like everyleader has the potential to try
to use force to make things workRight.
And it just it.
Invitation, it's the power ofinvitation, and even the
invitation toward, toward change, like Jesus, is a very
(29:50):
invitational.
God made man come and follow meLike there was no force, there
was no compulsion.
It's just like okay, we've seensome good things.
Oh, here's this rabbi, let'scome and come into life.
No one was holding force overthe disciples and the other 70
to follow Jesus around.
There was an invitation.
He was attractive, right, Jack?
Speaker 3 (30:13):
Well, the Reformation spread because of force.
Right, like, hey, we want tohave conversations about rightly
understanding Scripture andgetting back to a, you know, a
more grace orientedunderstanding of like no, we're
not having that conversation.
It was force.
And because what was theresponse from that?
It I mean it it didn't have theimpact that they thought it was
going to have.
Right, by being forceful intheir approach.
Speaker 4 (30:37):
Tim, it's actually referred to as the paradox of
power, that the more you push,the more people push back.
And I mean, like I am I'm atype A, you guys probably, I'm
guessing you are as well Likewhen I feel like somebody is
trying to back me into a corner,that's actually where I put up
my that's, where I put up mydefenses, that's where I'm least
(30:57):
likely to change.
But when I get asked toreconsider my positions, or
invited to think again, orinvited to see things
differently or hear storiesabout it, that's when really
transformation happens.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
Yeah, exactly.
So you threw one book out.
I'll throw one right back atyou, leading Through by the
Clark family.
It's actually an LDS family,latter-day Saints.
He was the grandpa or thefather, I guess was a part of
the quorum of 70.
I looked him up online.
He was for like four years.
(31:31):
But the book is pure.
He's a Harvard Business Weeklytype review, just like a grant
book.
It's pure gold.
And what they do?
They've done a lot of research.
Harvard Business School hasdone a lot of research on the
characteristics of CEOs andcompanies that try to leverage
power over people Heavyhierarchy, lots of rules, lots
(31:53):
of policies and all this kind ofstuff over and against the
leaders that have a leadingthrough, people that make space
at the table.
And and it is very evident inthe corporate world and in the
not-for-profit I would saychurch world too that those who
make the choice, by the spirit'spower, to lead through with
(32:14):
people, rather than using powerover people, experience a lot
more.
And success is probably not theright word, it would be joy,
like there's a family, there'slove, I'm known, I'm seen and,
frankly, the word you know, it'slonely at the top.
I don't really, even though wehave structure, there's order,
we have policies, governance,all that kind of stuff right,
(32:35):
because we're leading throughpeople, with people.
I don't feel I don't feel lonely.
You know our pastoral team,we're not.
I don't feel lonely, ourpastoral team.
I don't leverage senior pastorhere.
That's not really in ourvernacular.
I'll use it if it's helpful.
Very rarely is.
It depends the setting thatyou're in.
And so I'm just one pastoramong many pastors here and we
all have differentresponsibilities, different
(32:56):
giftings, and we're doing ittogether.
Any kind of word toward thatparadigm between leading over
power, over over, rather thanleading through Brian.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
Yeah, it makes me happy to hear you say that, Tim,
that like, hey, I don't feellonely because you're in the
minority, According to the sixesabout clergy, that that role
feels very lonely for manypeople feels very lonely for
many people, and if you'refeeling that way anyone who's
listening, watching I wouldinvite you to think like, what
(33:29):
could I?
What could I redo or rethink sothat I don't get into that trap
of feeling so lonely Because,to your point, Tim, it shouldn't
feel that way.
You should feel like you'releading with others and that you
have people in your corner.
I am and I'm the only clergyperson on our staff at our
church, but I do not feel alone.
I feel like I'm on a team ofpeople all using our gifts in
different ways, all for theglory of God and the advancement
(33:49):
of the kingdom and reaching ourcommunity, and that feels
really good and that's the wayit should feel.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
Jack, team building is the antidote to loneliness,
it's kind of the way it goes,but also, like you said, tim,
having a um, a power-drivenapproach towards the team.
So there is always aresponsibility, like an
administrative responsibility,to, you know, veto things from
time to time and set guardrails.
But also, how do you createfreedom and the ability for
(34:17):
people to be creative and towork in their, you know, have a
authority and autonomy whereappropriate to be able to
actually live out their gifting?
So there's sometimes there's alittle bit of a balancing act on
that, but the key to not bealone is to is to not lead
authoritatively orauthoritarianly right With a
team, so that they see you aspart of the team, not somebody
(34:39):
that Lords over the team.
Right, that right.
I think that's the key thing.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Well, that's the balance that Jesus, that's the
cord that Jesus perfectly struck.
It was very evident that he hadauthority, All authority, and
evident in earth he speaks asone who has authority.
And yet even the crowds wentout into the wilderness.
I'm thinking the feeding of the5,000, right?
Even the crowds went out intothe wilderness.
I'm thinking the feeding of the5,000, right.
They got lost in love andfollowing and listening to Jesus
(35:06):
, so much so that they neededtheir physical needs met.
They were drawn close.
I think we should use ourimagination to picture who Jesus
is and how much he loves us.
He rejoices over us.
As the Father says.
Jesus is the beloved, so we arethe beloved of God.
(35:26):
Like God invites us near, as wedraw near to God, he draws near
to us.
He can't be any closer than heis right now.
It's just our awareness by thespirit's power to how radically
in love he is with us.
And and then you know God, hehas an alien side, a law.
You know wrath, fearful,fear-stricken side, but that's
(35:48):
not his primary dispositiontoward me.
His primary disposition is loveand care.
And he smiles over me and wesmile back.
I think the way you maybe thinkof God maybe can impact the way
you lead in the local church orin your business.
Is it a light touch?
Is it an invitational touchthat appears to be the way the
(36:08):
Triune God works, or is it aheavy, top-down, dictatorial
touch?
So you spend quite a bit oftime talking about our listening
God.
What's surprising to you abouthow God listens in both the Old
Testament and New Testament?
Brian?
Speaker 4 (36:20):
Thanks for asking that question.
I was hoping we were going togo there, but I mean, just for a
second listeners, wrap yourhead around the fact that the
God of all creation actuallylistens to ragamuffins and
knuckleheads like us.
I mean, give me a break.
I mean in the book I give theillustration of imagine if you
(36:42):
went to a driving range and uh,uh, tiger Woods or Phil
Mickelson, um, was, uh, was, washitting some balls and asked
you hey, brian, would you mindto give me a little swing advice
?
You know what I mean.
Like, what are you talkingabout?
You're the boss, you knoweverything, right?
Um, that's so foolish to eventhink about that.
That would actually happen.
That's so foolish to even thinkabout that.
That would actually happen.
That's, that's like Godactually listening to us times a
(37:04):
thousand, right.
How many times does the Biblepicture a God who bends his ear
to hear us?
And I guess the point I make inthe book is hey, if the Lord of
all creation, the one whobalances oxygen and nitrogen and
hydrogen and all the elementsof the earth just so we can
breathe, the one who manages allthat, actually also takes time
(37:26):
to listen to us, don't you thinkwe could pull back on our
desire to talk over somebody andto just listen to them, like
God does for us.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
You cut out there just for a second, Brian, but
I'm sure the audio wasabsolutely captured.
I heard the gist of it and itis audacious that God is so near
to us.
And what is it aboutPhilippians, chapter 2?
This is the way of the cross.
Right Connect, listening to theway of the cross and the
humility of Christ.
Speaker 4 (37:59):
Tim, you're so good at this vocation of asking
questions, I was hoping you weregoing to do Philippians 2 as
well.
I love that.
Jesus Christ did not considerequality with God something to
be grasped as though, like tohang on to it, but rather made
himself nothing, coming down todeal and be relationally,
(38:20):
incarnationally with us.
So, like that is the model, nothierarchical, I'm going to own
you, I'm going to lead you andtell you what to do, but I'm
going to come down andcondescend like dwell among you
and be among you and berelational with you and listen
to you and care about you andwalk with you, and everyone
turns their back on you.
I won't.
(38:40):
That's the ministry and postureJesus takes in humanity.
So don't you think we ought totake that same approach
interpersonally, relationally,pastorally?
That's the model for ministry.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
Yes and well, that's what the early church did.
You had to listen as the gospelwent out across culture.
We are teaching a class rightnow and we had our students walk
through Alan Hirsch's bookReformation.
It came out right during COVID,just like your book did, so it
(39:15):
didn't get quite the tractionthat he and the team were hoping
for, and we don't agree withabsolutely everything in the
book.
There are some things he saysthat are a little I don't know
if I'd agree with that, andthat's okay.
But we talked about the book asa model for us having really
healthy dialoguecross-culturally.
Like Jesus in the early churchwere masters at saying you've
(39:37):
heard it said this, or you'reconnected to a God who does this
.
Let me tell you about a God whodoes this, or the creator of
all things.
I think maybe go here.
I think we need to get betterat connecting first article
First article simply means howGod works in creation to the
second article, how he's madehimself known in the person and
(39:57):
work of Jesus, and that bridgefrom first to second article is
the art of listening.
Anything more to say there,brian?
Speaker 4 (40:03):
Because the early church nailed it.
Yeah, exactly.
And I would say I do a chapterin the book about the.
This is like the posture amissionary ought to take, which,
by the way, we ought to reallythink of ourselves in that too,
because culture has radicallychanged, even in like the 15
years that I've been in ministryat this location, like are the
(40:28):
way in which, like, the worldaround us views the church has
changed.
I tell the story of LeslieNewbigin.
You know, missiologist,extraordinaire, grows up in
England, departs, leaves for youknow, 50, 60, 70 years, does
great mission work, comes backand finds that England has
radically changed and the churchis taking the same approach it
took when he left right.
And so he's like hey, we got toactually listen to the needs
(40:52):
and questions that our culture,the hurts that our culture has.
If we seek, if we want toactually reach them with the
gospel, we've got to firstlisten to them and listen to
their stories and listen totheir pain points.
And so you know, there is atouch point between listening
and the mission of God, which tome are like two sides of the
same point.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
Yeah, that's absolutely.
Hey.
Last couple of questionsgetting practical what does it
mean to live?
Oci?
Oci, open, curious, inquisitive?
That's a great handle, dude.
Oci, let's live it.
Speaker 4 (41:22):
Thank you.
Yeah, I just I noticed there's800 CSI shows.
You know CSI Orlando, csi LasVegas.
I'm like there's got to be away that we can remember this.
And so OCI to me is like theposture I take as I enter into
relationships or conversations,or you know the person that you
were next to in the choral group10 that you were in, which is
(41:47):
I'm going to be open, whichmeans like I actually am going
to believe that I can learnsomething from this person, that
I'm not going to prejudge thembased on how they look or their
political opinions or whatever.
I'm open to change.
Curious means that's theposture I take, like hey, well,
tell me more about that Like.
And then inquisitive means likethat's actually what I'm going
to do, is I'm going to askquestions to get to the bottom
of their story.
So to me it's just rememberlike, rather than I don't want
(42:09):
to waste my life talking aboutfootball and the weather, I'm
tired of talking about thosethings, let's talk about things
that matter.
And to me that means likeasking questions that start with
taking.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
So let's get super practical.
Here we talk about the LC onthe other side of the globe.
Speaker 4 (42:48):
Just picture, like Indonesia or something right, if
you were there, planted withthe hope of bringing the gospel
to that people, what posturewould you take toward that
community?
And number two, what posturewould you take towards fellow
Christians?
And number two, what posturewould you take towards fellow
Christians?
And I think if I was inIndonesia and I found a fellow
(43:10):
Christian, I would not becritiquing their worship
services, I wouldn't be mockingthem for what they wear on
Sunday or don't wear, whatinstruments they use or don't
use or anything.
I could care less about that.
I'm in a culture that's tryingto reach an unreached people
(43:32):
group.
If I found a Christian, I woulddo cartwheels to just be with
them and not friendly fire them.
So to me, as I think about ourculture, man, if we elevated the
posture of asking questions toour community because we are now
in Indonesia, the world aroundus has radically changed.
We're in a post-Christiancontext, so we cannot presume
that the way the church reachedme is the way the church is
going to reach somebody else.
(43:53):
I've got to ask questions ofthe culture and secondly, we've
got to ask questions of oneanother.
We cannot keep biting oneanother and critiquing one
another and prejudging oneanother and putting one another
in camps.
It is devastating to us aswe're hoping to reach our
community and culture.
Speaker 3 (44:12):
There does seem to be more hospitality, maybe in our
church body, with a diversity ofworship expression, let's say a
diversity of pastoral formation, you know, with some of the
global church bodies than wehave with our own selves, right
that we seem to hold ourselvesmaybe to a more narrow, stricter
(44:32):
standard than we do, and Idon't know where that comes from
, why we're comfortable,internationally maybe, having
this broader standard that wehold ourselves, that we hold
Christians to, than when we dowith our own national church
body.
I think it's very interesting.
Speaker 4 (44:49):
I have an opinion about that.
Tim.
But to me it's like in that, inthat environment, somehow we're
just so focused and that themission is everything and and
and so those other things becometertiary, like we're not going
to mess around with stuff.
That's a waste of time, right,but for whatever reason we've
lost that sense of that beingour primary thing, and so then
(45:11):
we take time that shouldn't bespent biting one another.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
Well, it's what happens when the church forgets
that she exists because thekingdom of God is advancing and
God wants to get all of his kidsback.
I don't know.
You can't put ecclesiology overthe mission.
If you miss that, it'sChristology, it's missiology and
it's ecclesiology in that orderhow we live together as the
(45:37):
church, because we can talkabout if we agree on Christ and
the mission to reach and seekand save the lost.
I mean Luke 15, can we agree on?
He left the 99 to get the one.
She sweeps the house to findthe lost coin.
They rejoice when the prodigalcomes home.
Like God is very evidently amission orienting sending God.
(45:58):
The father sent the son, thefather and son sent the Holy
Spirit to try and God sent thechurch.
This is just the way, the scopeof the narrative.
If we can agree on that, thento use your Indonesia, you
actually have the foundation forappropriate conversation around
ecclesiastical differences ofopinion and really, adiaphora.
(46:21):
I really like God has met me inthis.
This isn't in the Bible exactlyhow this, but we should do
things reverently, in good order.
I think there are some bestpractices for how we talk about
formation and worship oranything else or leadership in
general, the role of the pastor,how the priesthood of all
believers kind of interacts, andwe can kind of say, okay, yeah,
(46:42):
let's get into it.
And then in your context, I'mgonna, I'm going to trust you,
I'm going to trust you with itbecause we, we have kept it.
In any organization, if you donot have agreement on the
mission and the values and youmay think this is corporate,
this just is what is if youdon't have agreement on that,
then what should beappropriately discussed and and
(47:05):
you kind of are a little bitmore charitable with it you
recognize concept.
If you miss on the foundation,which is the mission of God,
you're going to miss on therelational stuff and those small
ecclesial things which they aresmall in terms of like eternity
.
In terms of our main mission,they become the main thing.
And it appears as if thePharisees had that tendency,
(47:27):
didn't they?
I mean, jesus comes.
We're preaching on the washedhands.
Why don't your disciples?
Washing your hands is a verygood thing, ritual cleansing in
the Old Testament is a very goodthing, but Jesus knows the
heart.
Their hearts are far from theydidn't want let me land it this
way this was a big epiphany forme the Pharisaical tendency.
They don't really want tolisten or get to know Jesus.
(47:48):
They're listening fromcondemnation and
self-righteousness.
And we should have the postureof the disciples bumbly, stumbly
, curious connected to Jesussent by the Holy Spirit at
Pentecost.
That was, and can Phariseeschange?
Because we all got Pharisee inus, right For sure.
(48:11):
Daily repentance is saying Iwant to justify myself, I want
to make myself righteous beforeGod, based on what I do and
based on the people that I hangout with.
And that is the height of sin,and confession and absolution is
the way of Jesus, which leadsus to a humble posture toward
those whom we disagree with.
Last thing here I rarely listento comments.
Who knows what comments peopleare going to like.
It's not good for my spirit orwhatever.
(48:33):
It's not good on either end.
Oh, way to go.
Or oh, you suck, you're theworst, you know, whatever.
But if our team says, oh, tim,you should respond to this one,
this is interesting I'll sayyeah, just send me.
I'm not going to get into adebate with anybody via the
written word.
I've spoken and that's it.
If you want to have aconversation, send me an email.
Do you know how many peoplehave?
(48:53):
Over the last number of yearsI've been doing podcasts that
I've left a little blurb.
Here's my email talman atcglchurchorg.
Do you know how many peoplethat disagree with me have sent
me an email?
Speaker 4 (49:02):
Zero.
That's incredible.
Speaker 2 (49:05):
Zero who have made those kinds of comments.
Now I've talked to people thatI disagree with.
You know around differentthings, but if you're like
bombing on social media, youjust want to drop the bomb and
you want to bounce.
You don't want to actually getto know me or or any of the it's
the same dialogue.
Speaker 3 (49:19):
You just want to proclaim your point and let it
go.
Speaker 2 (49:23):
That's it.
So let's work on that LCMS, andwe at the ULC are ready to set
space toward that end, Brian.
Any final comments?
Man, this has been so much fun.
Speaker 4 (49:32):
Thanks so much for the conversation, thanks for the
work you're doing, and mayGod's good work in all of us
continue.
Speaker 2 (49:37):
Amen, it's a privilege.
This is lead time.
Please like, subscribe, comment.
Wherever it is you take inthese conversations, the joy of
Jesus is our strength, he is ourrefuge, our ever-present help
in times of trouble, and this isprobably released during Lent.
May your Lenten journey to thecross of Jesus Christ give you
the hope that death does not win, life wins.
(49:59):
Jesus is alive, he is reigningand he sent his spirit to move
us out with humility into hismission and dive right in man.
The water's great, the water'swarm, and let's get after it.
So thanks Brian, thanks Jack,excellent work.
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
Speaker 3 (50:16):
It's been a pleasure listening to you all.
Speaker 4 (50:20):
Well played, let's go , let's go.
Speaker 1 (50:26):
You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the
Unite Leadership Collective.
The ULC's mission is tocollaborate with the local
church to discover, develop anddeploy leaders through biblical
Lutheran doctrine and innovativemethods To partner with us in
this gospel message.
Subscribe to our channel, thengo to theuniteleadershiporg to
create your free login forexclusive material and resources
and then to explore ways inwhich you can sponsor an episode
(50:48):
.
Thanks for listening and staytuned for next week's episode.
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