July 1, 2025 • 51 mins
Bob Sundquist takes us on a captivating journey through the turbulent founding story of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod—a tale far more complex and human than most church histories acknowledge. Moving beyond simplified narratives of heroes and villains, Sundquist reveals how the first "celebrity pastor" of the LCMS, Martin Stephan, led 700 Saxon immigrants to America in 1838 only to face accusations and eventual exile across the Mississippi River.
This conversation reveals how historical understanding helps us navigate present church tensions between pastoral and congregational authority.
• History is fundamentally about storytelling and understanding people, not just memorizing dates
• Martin Stephan was the first "celebrity pastor" of the LCMS whose leadership eventually created a crisis
• The accusations against Stephan of sexual impropriety likely had no concrete evidence but were used to remove him
• C.F.W. Walther developed Lutheran understanding of church authority through the trauma of Stephan's removal
• Pastors should focus primarily on Word and Sacrament ministry rather than business management
• The LCMS has historically had a hyper-fixation on the Office of Ministry as a result of early traumas
• Walther's "Duties of an Evangelical Lutheran Synod" (1879) offers wisdom for contemporary church conflicts
• The Missouri Synod repeats the same resolutions without taking action, indicating unresolved tensions
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is Lead Time.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Welcome to Lead Time.
This is Tim Allman and we gotJack Kauberg here and we're
going to have an awesomeconversation.
Before I get into it, jack,love and life.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
I am love and life man.
It's a great day to be here inArizona.
We just came off of I don'tknow when this podcast drops,
but we just came off of a veryintense two-day consultation in
our own trip how we can getbetter at multi-site ministry.
So that's been something, areal kind of eye-opening
experience.
Shout out to the people atUnstuck Group they're really
(00:34):
cool, really cool partners to behanging out with.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Yeah, if you get the chance to work with Unstuck, for
sure.
If multi-site is a part of yourpresent or your future, very,
very useful.
Today we get to hang out withRobert Sundquist, pastor
reverend Now.
I had you on my AmericanReformation, now the Tim Allman
podcast six months ago or so youwere right in the doctor
journey, is that?
(00:57):
Are you officially now areverend doctor, Robert?
Speaker 4 (01:00):
Nope, nope, nope.
They haven't found a way to getme yet.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Okay, all right, robert, nope, nope, nope, they
haven't found a way to get meyet.
Okay, so we're going to betalking Robert and I were
classmates from ConcordiaSeminary in St Louis back in the
day, both 2008 graduates, andwe're going to talk about the
early story of the LCMSconnected to CFW Walther, martin
, stephan and their kind ofbattle for control.
(01:24):
This goes into kind of theauthority of the local church
and Bob spoke where ourpresident, district president
Mike Gibson, heard him speak andhe told me he was like hey, tim
, you got to get.
You got to get Bob on to talkabout some of the history.
So, before we get in, I mean,you're a historian, your office
(01:45):
smells like rich mahogany andyou have many leather bound
books.
But, bob, why is understanding,why is understanding history so
important?
Just, and frame this up,because I got a son.
You know I'm like dude.
I told you history is important, man, I was a history major.
Understanding where we've comefrom, very important.
So phrase it up for peoplemaybe young or old, but people
are are like I don't really caremuch about the past.
(02:06):
What would you say to them?
Speaker 4 (02:08):
I would say that, um, they were likely not taught
history very well.
They were probably taughthistory as a discipline of
memorizing facts or dates, um,and and they felt obligated to
do so and it felt unimportant oruninspired, and so that's
probably what happened, and it'sa bummer, yeah, yeah, but
(02:29):
honestly, everybody is reallygood at history because we're
social beings and history is thestory of people.
And if you, if you want toinspire somebody to learn
history, tell them stories andtell them interesting stories.
History, tell them stories andtell them interesting stories,
because we actually do historyall the time.
I would venture that yourchildren are really good at
(02:50):
recounting the history of theirday, especially if there's a
drama or something going on or aconflict or celebration.
They'll tell you the history ofsuccess and they'll tell you
the agony of defeat and allthose kinds of things.
So we, by nature, are storiedbeings, and so that's what
history is and that's what makesit amazing.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Hey, yeah, that's it.
And the reason I love historyis because our God stepped down
into it, cared about us in timeand space and became flesh for
us.
The greatest historical beingthe world has ever known is the
person of Jesus Christ.
So I'm reading a book right nowcalled the Atlas Factor by a
guy by the name of Lance Ford.
I'm trying to get him on and hetalks about the various lenses
(03:35):
through which we understandhistory and, specifically,
leadership.
But I'm going to keep it at ahigh level of history with you.
There are multiple differentways we can look at it, and one
is kind of the hero man lens.
So you look at the WinstonChurchill as the primary
character in World War Two andeverything's kind of seen
(03:55):
through his lens, and I thinkthis can lead us to a short and
maybe even in our LCMS story.
This is where we're going to begoing.
We have different heroes and wehave different villains in the
story.
Right, and obviously for usit's CFW Walter he's like the
guy, and then Martin Stephan,evil guy, power hungry.
You know this kind of thing andit's obviously never that
(04:18):
simple, but human beings like tomake what is complex more
simple, and to do that we liketo find the heroes and the
villains of the story.
Say more there, Bob, if youwould, about that understanding
of the way we do history.
Speaker 4 (04:29):
So there's something in history called hagiography
and that's what you're talkingabout, and it's hero stories.
And an excellent example ofthis in America is Paul Bunyan,
who was likely a real person,but they make his story into a
grander story.
And it is a grander storybecause his story has nothing to
(04:50):
do with Paul Bunyan.
It has everything to do withthe American logging industry in
the North and immigrant culture.
And so his big blue ox did notcreate the Thousand Lakes of
Minnesota and he could not fella forest with the swing of his
ax, but his story, hishagiography, became the larger
story of things that wereactually happening.
(05:12):
And so all the way fromMinnesota to Moscow, idaho, you
know you have Paul Bunyan, butit wasn't Paul Bunyan, it was
Paul Bunyan with a thousandfaces.
And so Joseph Campbell kind ofgets into this with narrative
storytelling.
And so Joseph Campbell kind ofgets into this with narrative
storytelling.
And so any hero that you haveis telling a real story of a
larger representative storythat's going on.
(05:35):
And so you have CFW Walther,when Walther would not have
counted himself as a hero at all.
He may have thought of Loeber,or he may have thought of
Marbach, or he may have thoughtof other people as more
important to him.
Even later on in life, cfwWalther didn't have a lot of bad
things to say about somebodywho had a lot of hagiography,
(05:57):
which was Martin Stephan, whowas the person who helped a
group of immigrants to findfreedom of religion in America.
But he was the first celebritypastor of the Lutheran Church
Missouri Synod.
But, like today, you havecelebrity pastors that have a
lot of hagiography around themand fail.
So did Stephan.
(06:18):
He failed, which led tointeresting kind of consequences
in the Lutheran Church MissouriSynod.
You said battle.
I don't think they would havethought of it as a battle
between good and evil.
I think they would have thoughtof it as a traumatic fight that
happens inside of a family,that leads to a schism that is
(06:39):
deeply felt and its consequencesare probably still relevant
today.
Does that make sense?
It does, it does.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Jack, any response to that.
I'm just thinking about howoften that happens with so many
historical figures that we dealwith, like George Washington,
there's all kinds of crazyfolklore around him, you know,
cutting down the cherry tree andall that kind of stuff.
And there's all kinds offolklore surrounding Martin
Luther, right, like lots ofreally interesting stories that
a lot of times have beendebunked, but they're still part
of the narrative of that personbecause of his impact on us.
(07:09):
So that's really fascinating.
So is it your view then, withthese figures like Stefan and
Walther, that there's a lot offolklore tied to that?
That may or may not be true forthese characters.
Speaker 4 (07:23):
Yeah, for sure, and I think, to just speak for a
second about what people dotoday, since we live in a
society, a secular age, asCharles Taylor would want to say
, where we're a mosaic self,where we create our own
narrative and we manage it.
I think that we, before we die,want to be storied people, and
(07:43):
so the problem with today isthat people chasing after
experiences to story theirexistence so they can live their
own legend right now, which Ithink is folly, um, and I think
it's tragic, um and itsconsequences as we see in
culture today.
Um, I would say that um,there's a lot of hagiography
about you know, like uh, stefanand and walter.
(08:06):
One of the one of the mostdamning ones, uh for stefan, is
that he's often seen as a?
Um, as somebody who fooledaround with women.
Um, he was accused of that backin dresden when he was serving a
little bohemian congregation upthere in the 1830s, and that
stink just couldn't leave him.
(08:27):
When he came to the Americas,it was only after people were
very dissatisfied with hisperformance and his controlling
behavior.
His celebrity turned when hegot on the ship to come to
America.
So what ended up happening isthat old accusation came back,
but in our work at ConcordiaHistorical Institute in the
(08:48):
research department, we were notable to find one shred of
evidence that he actuallycommitted adultery.
There was accusations and noproof.
Even his maid, who followed himacross the river to Illinois
where he was banished for therest of his days, the river to
Illinois where he was banishedfor the rest of his days, it was
all just hearsay.
(09:08):
The truth of the matter is isthat he didn't follow the Billy
Graham rule.
Oh, if we only had Billy Graham.
You know today, you guys knowthe Billy Graham rule.
Say it.
The Billy Graham rule forclergy is that you never meet
with a lady alone.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Well, this is a great rule.
Speaker 4 (09:23):
It's an excellent rule which Stefan was completely
foolish about, and so he would.
He got used to in Dresdenhaving late night meetings
conventicles, if you will, ifyou're willing to accept that by
which he would go walking andpeople would join him for walks,
and some of them were ladiesand sometimes it was just ladies
and all that kind of stuff.
In america, when theirdissatisfaction about his well,
(09:48):
his performance, he, he lost allthe charisma when he, when he
became bishop, when they sworehim bishop on the way over
january 14th, um, on the ship1838, I think it was um when he
became bishop, all his charismaleft.
So everything that they wereenamored with him and his
celebrity pastorness was gone.
His preaching fell by thewayside.
(10:10):
He wasn't working on it, hebecame reclusive and suspicious,
him like thirty five hundreddollars as like a fee to come to
america and then he just kindof spent the money however he
wanted.
So there was very lowaccountability which would have
(10:31):
been big money back then.
right, yeah, it was a hundred.
Uh, what's called a hundreddollars?
It sounds like dollars, butit's t-h-a-l-e-s and so, um, you
know, they, they were all verydissatisfied and all of a sudden
, ladies were.
They came to a pastor namedLoeber and they confessed that
they felt like their time withhim was inappropriate.
(10:52):
And then Loeber broke the sealof confession and went and
ratted him out to Walther, whichwas hilarious when you think of
the vows that we take today,when you think of the vows that
we take today, which led to aseries of events his expulsion
from his house and, you know,expulsion into was it?
Horse Prairie, illinois, I don'tknow, someplace in Illinois.
(11:15):
They still have a Stephanitechurch over there today and,
yeah, that's kind of we got allthis hagiography about.
You know all that, but the factof the matter is we have no
proof that he actually did that.
But what we do have proof of isthat everybody's really angry
at him and they found a way toget rid of him that was
consistent with accusations fromGermany or, excuse me, from
(11:37):
Dresden and those areas into alittle institutional bullying,
you know.
And there we go.
Even if it was the right thingto do.
It was a pretty rough way totreat a guy.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Cue Lutheran snark.
Good thing we don't strugglewith that today.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
Oh, Lutheran snark is beautiful, yeah, because it's
bread and butter of who we are.
So again, to call it a fightmight be, or a battle might not
be true.
It's more like a really uglyfamily trauma.
Does that make sense?
Well, or a battle might not betrue, it's more like a really
ugly family trauma.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Yeah, does that make sense?
Well, it does, and it's just.
It was dysfunction, handledinappropriately.
Call a thing what a thing isyou know?
And if it's not that thingmeaning sexual immorality, then
please don't call it that unlessthere is proof and we have seen
lies damage reputation.
(12:27):
That's one of the biggest thingsthat human beings are afraid of
is reputation, savagery and theshame, the reputational shame,
that comes in a group of peoplethat you used to be close to and
now no longer are.
It's amazing, our hyper-indism,like we came over on the boat
and we immediately go after ourown way rather than taking the
(12:52):
long, messy Jesus way to restorea brother.
It's just, and I don't have alot of sympathy for Stephan.
I think his financialmismanagement was unwise, to say
the least, but I think youought to have an ounce of
compassion for the way the storywas handled and the
villainization that gets told ofthis man without, without proof
(13:13):
, anything more to say thereabout how we are to treat one
another today, because I thinkthat labels still exist today
and we still reputation savageconsistently, and this is this
is unfortunate in the lcmsrobert yeah, I think, uh, what
you're touching on is mentionednot on on, ironically in
luther's small catechism, in themeaning of the eighth
commandment.
Speaker 4 (13:34):
You know, um, we don't.
We don't destroy somebody'sreputation, you know, and?
But let's be a little fairbecause history is about being
even handed.
It is true that Martin Stephanwas very close to making the
Missouri Senate a faction byleaving the way that he did.
(13:55):
It is true that he he shouldhave stayed in St Louis and not
bought the, the, the rocky,unfarmable soil in Perry County.
It is true that it was veryunwise for him to become
controlling and withdrawn.
It is true that he did muchdamage by asking for his palace
(14:18):
to be built before they evenbuilt a town, while they were
all living in shanty.
So it is true, you know, thathe did all of these things
incorrectly and I believe itspeaks to a larger problem that
is still true in the churchtoday, which is pastors who see
themselves as um CEOs, cfos,small business managers, when
(14:44):
they have absolutely no trainingfor it.
We have been trained to do wordand sacrament ministry and what
I say to my guys when I teachis if it ain't word and
sacrament, it ain't yours.
Which this leads to the Marburgcolloquy and Bessie was like
let me handle the financials,because they had those trauma
from Stephan or Stephan.
And.
And then Walter was having ahard time trying to reconcile
(15:08):
that, but he eventually did.
Pastors are often put into theposition of being in charge of
things that they have nobusiness experience or gift for
being in charge of.
But let's just say that apastor maybe had the gift a
little bit of doing businessstuff.
Maybe he used to be and hestill has some skill in it.
Well, when he became a pastor,he agreed to no longer operate
(15:31):
in those things but only operatewith the tools that he's been
given, which is word ofsacrament.
Like, for instance, I'm reallygood at punching people in the
face.
I have a skill for it, but Idon't like bringing that into my
pastorate.
You know what I mean.
That's a good idea, but I don'tlike bring that into my
pastorate.
You know what I mean.
That's a good idea, so you know.
So I used to box.
That doesn't make me think.
Well, you know I have thisskill.
(15:51):
No, I set it aside because Ihave a new calling.
And so Stephan was put in aposition where he's operating
outside of his gift set becausehe was confusing the left and
the right hand kingdom.
They went with it because itfits this model of well, you're
the pastor, therefore you're incharge.
(16:11):
You're the pastor, you deal inword and sacrament.
And so part of it was aconfusion from the community,
which I still believe is presentin Lutheran churches in America
today, where a pastor gets inand they say well, you're in
charge of the budget, well, goahead.
Ask us how many classes we tookon accounting and AR and you
know all those kinds of thingsat seminary.
(16:33):
The answer you had it.
You made it handsome.
Yeah, accounts receivable.
Sorry, yeah, zero.
Ask us how many organizationalpsychology classes we took on
staff management.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Maybe like one, maybe if you say pastor is leader
maybe, but not like theintricate details of management.
Speaker 4 (16:48):
No, gosh, no, there's no way you can, yeah, yeah, how
to fire, you know staff and allthose kinds of things.
And so the problem is is whenthe pastor comes in, all of a
sudden they place all of thesethings onto him that are outside
of his office.
Now wise pastor says I'm goingto find the people that can do
(17:09):
that.
There we go, but I'm going tostay inside a word and sacrament
.
And so this was one of theearliest lessons and traumas in
the Missouri Synod which led toa lot of consequences for the
Missouri Synod having a fixationon the office of the holy
ministry.
Sorry, jack, but you weretrying to say something.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
No, no, no, it was good.
I was trying to stir the pot alittle bit here, because in our
context here at the church Timserves at, we've got a Carver
governance model, and so reallywhat that means is Tim is the
administrative lead of thischurch, right, and I was kind of
curious to hear Tim's take onthat in this conversation.
No, jack.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Yep, what's that?
I don't do much administration,no you don't.
I distinctly remember todaysaying there's a lot of projects
that I know we're going to bedoing and I'm excited to hear
how they get done so I can cheeron a team that's working very
hard to support the Office ofHoly Ministry, but it's not
(18:00):
specifically Word and SacramentMinistry.
I'm blessed to have just enoughwisdom to know what I don't
know, and it's pretty mucheverything but what Bob said,
and then I include Word Jack, aswhen I taught culture and love
and how we respect one anotherand how Jesus loved and cared
for one another.
(18:20):
So, as we're talking aboutdifferent opportunities for
change, all for the advancementof the kingdom, we're going to
do so in a way that honorsChrist and honors one another,
like that, that is, like I wantto make sure the fruit of the
Holy Spirit is seen.
We're a very passionate grouphere, bob, like there's there's
(18:40):
a lot of wonderful and, as anykind of organization that grows
in complexity, with a church anda school and a number of those
things, you're going to have themove, the interplay between
what are Adiaphora things whichI can release with strategy
types of things, and then how weend up here.
Here's the way I like to say it, bob, and I'll get your take on
(19:03):
this.
I do have, because thescriptures are clear go and make
disciples.
We need to be in the disciplebusiness baptize, teach, and so
that is, that is a vision.
Our community is growing and soI will preach toward reaching
people in the marketplace, inour homes, reaching people with,
with the gospel.
And then I have a group ofpeople who are open to train
(19:25):
different leaders and differentevangelists et cetera to do that
in their various contexts.
In my mind that's word work,right.
And some may say, well, that'sa vision.
Well, I don't know if it'svision per se, but it's.
Jesus left a vision Jerusalem,judea, samaria, to the ends of
the earth.
And so in our context, that hasto be a part of my word work.
But then the how that getsaccomplished, it varies, right,
(19:48):
in various different, how thetraining goes about for our
different small group leaders etcetera.
I don't have to be a part ofthat, I need to make sure it's
happening.
But the training mechanismsbehind the scenes work.
There's a lot of freedom towardthat end.
But then what I do monitor quiteclosely, and I would say it's
not just the advancement of thegospel but I do monitor the
(20:08):
culture that is here and I'mheld accountable toward that,
jack, by our board how wellpeople are loved and treated,
both who call this place theirchurch home and who are called
to serve here in this space as apart of their vocation.
Like, I'm seriously concernedabout that.
I view that all under word workin our community.
(20:31):
But the finance, the HR, all ofthe like, if I touch any of
that, oh my goodness, not good,not good.
And, jack, you and I justrecently had a conversation
around different staff coming.
Like I can have those kind ofconversations.
It's uncomfortable for me too.
So I would much assume,delegate to you and to a team
what it looks like behind thescenes to get the right people
(20:54):
here and to keep the rightpeople here who have the heart
and mind of Jesus.
I'm saying a lot but justletting people a little bit more
behind the curtain even of alarge church.
I view myself word andsacrament is my primary call,
obviously, and I can do otherthings, but that's what God has
called me to do.
Robert, any take on that?
Or Jack, I'll go to you andthen let Robert kind of finish
(21:15):
it up.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
Yeah, so I mean bouncing back to me.
It's so fascinating to mebecause I've I've functioned in
so many different governancestyles in the church, right, and
the first, the first style itwas, it was designed around
exactly, bob, what you'retalking about, whereas, like the
pastor, the pastor makes nobusiness decisions here.
(21:37):
Our team of lay people, they'regoing to make all the business
decisions here, decisions here,and that led to a certain amount
of dysfunction in the church,in that there seemed to be a
disconnect between the type ofvision that we were putting
together for ministry and maybe,like you know, how business
people were thinking about howto administer things.
Like there's just a disconnecthere, right, and I don't know,
(22:01):
maybe I guess the way I thinkabout it is kind of the Lutheran
way that we just hold a lot ofthings in tension, right, you
know.
But I do know that how wefunction now seems to be a lot
more healthier than how wefunctioned in the past.
But I also know that a lot ofpastors couldn't, maybe
necessarily couldn't, step intothe role that Tim is into this
(22:22):
function and maybe might notnecessarily be able to function
as well as Tim does, becausehe's very gifted in this area.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
I think more could if they were put in the right.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
Just in the ability to give away things and to
understand like Fair enough,fair enough, but that's just.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
That's just knowing what I don't know Right.
Knowing, really doubling down,bob, on what you say, stay in
your, stay in your lane Release,and I do.
And knowing, really doublingdown, bob on what you say, stay
in your lane release, and I dohave to have accountable
conversations around differentthings, but that's just the way
it goes.
That's again.
That's word work.
So I don't shy away fromdifficult conversations and the
biggest pain point for me, asI'm just highlighting here, is
(22:56):
character, is the heart and mindof Christ and the humility of
Jesus being seen in our team aswe go about our work.
Any observations there, bob?
We being seen in our team as wego about our work Any
observations there?
Speaker 4 (23:07):
Bob, we're letting you just kind of behind the
scenes into our church worldhere.
It's great.
No, that's fine.
Yeah, I would say that the realkey to doing that successfully,
which you probably would allagree with, is in those moments
when you are casting vision ordoing those kinds of things.
You're asking the question whattool am I using to do that?
Am I using business models andstrategies, or am I using the
(23:28):
word?
And as long as it's the wordand you're not doing theological
excuse, making like just giveme all the money, that's what
the Bible says, and I'll go makethe zoo.
As long as you're not beingspiritually abusive with the
word, then yeah, you're doing itcorrectly.
And then, at moments whenpeople are, for instance,
(23:49):
engaging you at a personal leveland it ceases to be about
confession and absolution, thenyou would be able to say, hey,
maybe you should seek the helpof a mental health professional,
because this is a littleoutside of my wheelhouse but it
takes a lot of humility to beable to do that to your point
about other pastors is becausethere's something very
(24:10):
intoxicating about power andcontrol, which is the lesson we
learned from Stephan.
There's something veryintoxicating about power and
control that you feel like as apastor, you get to be at all
these really heavy places inpeople's lives and it feels very
intoxicating to be able to bethe guy who says things and
people do stuff, and that's alure of the sinful flesh and of
(24:34):
the devil and of the world.
And this is where celebritypastors end up.
Going wrong is because theyhave nearly unrestricted access
to people, to money and tocelebrity, and what that creates
is a perfect invitation by yoursinful nature to do the wrong
thing and people put thecelebrity on the pedestal and
(24:56):
they're all so surprised whenthey give them all of those
things and then they fall intosin and Lutherans are sitting
back going, well, yeah, you know, that's our biblical
anthropology.
And so the same thing happenswith pastors is oh, pastor, what
should we do?
And you're just kind ofspitballing here and you're
using adverbs and adjectives andit sounds great, you know, and
(25:17):
everybody's loving your idea.
And then afterwards, after threeyears or so, they say, oh, we
didn't really want to do that,but we thought it made you happy
.
So we just said yes.
And you're going wait what?
Because your idea wasn't basedoff of your vocation in the word
or the sacraments it was basedoff of hey, let's go get stuff
done, you know, in the name ofJesus, and you create all, you
(25:40):
fall into all these traps.
And so, knowing your limitations, as Tim said, and being humble
enough to be able to accept themand to use the resources that
God has truly given into hischurch, which is word and
sacrament and the gift of people, the gift of the other, to be
able to say, hey, you're abusiness guy, funds for a
(26:00):
building before, but everybody'stelling me I got to do it, Will
you please, oh, please, oh,dear God, please help me.
Or when somebody sharessomething very personal and it's
outside of your pay grade.
Don't pretend to be theprofessional.
Instead, say I can help youwith the Word of Sacrament,
let's get some other peopleinvolved.
So that just takes a lot ofhumility.
(26:22):
Stephan didn't learn thatlesson, and now the Missouri
Senate has reacted so hard eversince, Ever since.
That?
Does that make any sense?
It does so, do you feel?
Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Tim.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
So I was going to ask if you felt that you know, do
you feel that Walther learnedthat lesson in the midst of
Stephan's failures?
You know, in terms of his workin founding the LCMS?
Speaker 4 (26:44):
I think Walther really struggled with that.
Again, it wasn't so clear of abattle between good and evil.
I mean, stephan was the personwho pulled him out of pietism.
Walther was drowning in Dresdenand pietism and this guy told
him he says there's this reallydynamic pastor and he's
confessional and he's reallygreat and he talks real pretty
(27:06):
and he's handsome and you knowhe's, he's Czech, so he's a
little, you know, it's likehaving a little tattoo peek out
of your sleeve like Ooh, he's.
You know he's edgy, he's Czech.
And so Walter wrote to him.
And Walter was really nervouswhen he wrote back because he
thought this guy's just going totell me that I'm doing the
wrong thing and I need to dothis instead of that.
He was very nervous.
And so when he read Stephan'sletter which asked him to appeal
(27:32):
to Christ you know, to go toChrist for comfort, not for your
own pietism Walther was verymuch changed in that moment.
So for Walther it wasn't so easyas to say, yeah, let's just get
rid of him.
I mean, it was ripping his gutsout.
It was very much like a divorceor a trauma in a family.
And so Walther suffered asevere depression, a very severe
depression, to the point wherethe majority of those immigrants
(27:55):
had wondered if they were evena church, you know, because they
were just confusedtheologically.
And so it took him a while andit took for him some very
careful work through scripture.
He was very much helped byLuther's kind of writings to
help to kind of clear the fog,and so it wasn't so easy.
There weren't horns onStephan's head and it was very
(28:17):
confusing.
This guy helped me to be thekind of pastor I am today.
But now he's bad.
And am I good?
Did we do the right thing?
Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Yeah, it does.
So you said that we should havestayed in St Louis.
That may have caught somepeople's attention.
Say why you think we shouldhave stayed in St Louis rather
than going down to Perry County.
Speaker 4 (28:39):
St Louis had more accountability, had more
accountability.
And that's exactly what Stephanneeded to stop acting the way
that he was.
And it was very clear that heliked Perry County because it
was super cheap.
It was super cheap and that wasvery suspicious to everybody.
They're like why is it?
Why is he so concerned aboutthat?
(29:00):
I mean, we gave them all thismoney.
You know what's the deal.
There were 700 immigrants, youknow, and they all ponied up
$3,500, you know back then.
And so it's like what's thedeal?
And so what stefan needed wasaccountability.
But he immediately startedwithdrawing himself when he got
to st louis.
When he took the steamboatwillie up to st louis, he didn't
(29:22):
even come off the boat.
He stayed in his luxury cabinall night and everybody was very
disappointed.
And then he snuck into hishotel rooms at night and stayed
very reclusive.
So he, st Louis was a placewhere he would have been held
accountable.
First time he preached in StLouis, the papers were running
like hey, there's this dynamite,you know, celebrity pastor from
(29:43):
Dresden, and everybody go andwatch him preach, and so and he
just tanked.
He tanked and I think it'sbecause he knew he couldn't hide
behind his celebrity anymore,and so it was just, it was just
rough.
So I think St Louis was thebetter option.
They should have stayed.
Should have stayed.
Yeah, that's that's fascinating.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Dfw Walther begins to .
After he comes out of the fog,he begins to kind of take on the
mantle of a new bishop of sorts.
What was it Go?
Speaker 4 (30:14):
ahead.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
He didn't like the bishop thing.
Yeah, he didn't use that termat all.
Speaker 4 (30:17):
Yeah, because that was a Steffen thing.
Okay, so he was just a pastor,yeah yeah, yeah, and so writing
a Congregational Rites of Truth.
Sorry to interrupt that, butWalter would like roll in his
grave right now.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
You know, if you heard that You're not a yeah,
cfw author, don't roll over,you're just a pastor.
Good, good Thanks.
Speaker 4 (30:33):
Just a good guy.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Just a good, just a good guy.
So well, you mentioned on acongregation's right to call
their pastor.
What was the background contextfor that?
Speaker 4 (30:42):
Because they believe that the church was generated
through the pastor rather thanthrough the congregation, and so
it became very clergy focusedrather than congregationally
focused.
And so we can do this littleexercise from the small
catechism, where it says in thesection on the office of the
keys, on absolution, that thisis the authority that Christ has
(31:07):
given to his church.
It doesn't say gave to hispastors or gave to his bishops
or his archbishops or hissynodical presidents Not that I
have anything wrong with theirsynodical president, but you
know, like that was veryrevelatory for them because they
had this kind of a episcopacythat just ruined their view of
(31:28):
what the church was.
And when they realized that theHoly Spirit has given these
gifts to the church church andit was the church's right to
choose a pastor, that, um, thatwas revelatory for them and it
really brought them back intomainline christianity, away from
the kind of factiousness thatthey were kind of working with
seems like we still have someroom for growth in terms of the
(31:51):
balance between the royalpriesthood and the office of
holy ministry, um, and even somelines of accountability.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
You know, I I've been to the convention, the last
three in it, and it, uh, is onerepresentation of the church,
but it obviously is very, verypastor, pastor and presidium and
district president, kind ofcentric.
It's very much a politicalfunction within the church and I
don't know that the laity andher voice is as loud today as I
(32:24):
pray her voice is into thefuture, and this is nothing
against the Office of HolyMinistry.
I think, in some circles though, we've spent too much time
talking about and frankly Icould be accused of this with
all that I've done talking aboutpastoral, this pastoral that
you know, and not enough aboutequipping, releasing all of the
gifts within the body of Christin all of her various vocations,
(32:48):
anything to say at just a highlevel, about how we in Missouri
can become imbalanced as itrelates to the Office of Holy
Ministry connected to the royalpriesthood.
Speaker 4 (32:56):
Well, I would say that the consequence of Stephan
and all of that and theMarlborough colloquy is that the
Missouri Senate had a hyperfixation on the office, and you
can see this in our publications.
We exponentially write moreabout the Office of the Ministry
than we do any other section,even the catechism which we use
the Dietrich's Catechism, if Iremember correctly, when we came
(33:16):
over, we moved the questionsand answers on the Office of the
Ministry forward and we added awhole bunch of questions and
answers which you want to see.
If an organization is dealingwith something, see what they
mentioned the most of, and sowe've always kind of had that.
I think that, honestly, a verygood work on this is CFW,
(33:37):
walther's Kirchenamt, or Churchand Ministry.
I think it would be excellentfor people to read that.
Or, for instance, he has aconvention letter which is
absolutely fantastic.
Tim, you're going to go get one, I'm going to go get one too.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
Okay, so we're both going to get one.
I want to see a church andministry Fascinating yeah.
Speaker 4 (33:55):
Kierkegaard Amt.
Yeah, I have here in my officethe original, the old school
translation and the new reader'stranslation.
This is the new reader'stranslation.
(34:31):
Just brilliant stuff, and Ithink that a lot of people will
say that they have read it,which is hilarious because if
they had read it, they wouldlikely not have some of the
problems that we're having today.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
What?
Speaker 4 (34:37):
should we read, bob?
What parts should we read?
What would be some keytakeaways that somebody might
get?
Go ahead and just read thewhole thing and here's what
you'll see.
Okay, I'll read the whole thingagain.
We will, I read it.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
I got to read it again.
Dust it off, baby.
Here we go.
Tim, have you ever read it?
Oh yeah, I read it at the semin.
Speaker 4 (34:48):
come on, yeah, yeah actually that's uh, that's
different.
That book that you just held up, that's uh, oh yeah well, it
shouldn't be the same thing, forgoodness sake yeah, that's a
study on the church and theministry, which proves my point.
It's a study of the lcms oh,it's not hilarious.
Cfw walter, which is yeah yoursmight be dark blue okay, I'm
still looking, but keep going sowhat walter does very well is
(35:12):
he talks both sides of thestruggle, where pastors need to
take their job very, veryseriously and do it very, very
well, which means representingthe laity as well.
But then, on the other extreme,he talks about the priest of
all believers, and he talksabout it in such extreme ways
that the only thing left is, asJack pointed out, attention, and
(35:34):
so we will never be able tosolve this.
There are people who tried tosolve this.
What?
The evangelical style, lutheransubstance, people, the
priesthood of all believers,people, I think even the oh,
ozzie Hoffman, the statement ofthe 44, you know, they tried to
do that too.
And it's just always when youtry and solve the tension, you
(35:55):
create a new problem or you justreinvent an old one.
Yeah, but you have to liveinside of this tension.
I think the best thing to readabout this is Kierkegaard's
Church and Ministry, but I haveone more, and it's just one
thing, and it's from thisWalther's Works.
Cph published one on churchfellowship.
Sounds like something you wantto nestle up to at night, right?
(36:17):
I just really would love toread about church fellowship.
Well, listen, I don't know of abetter contemporaneous essay
for our synod to be readingright now, than this one which
is Duties of an EvangelicalLutheran Synod right now, than
this one which is Duties of anEvangelical Lutheran Synod,
(36:37):
which is page 237 and followingin this work.
This is from the first IowaDistrict Convention in 1879 at
Fort Dodge, iowa, and it ishauntingly accurate to what's
going on in our synod today.
And this is another gift ofhistory.
You talked about why history isimportant.
The gift of history issometimes you don't need to have
(36:57):
new, because often innovationwell, actually innovation is the
definition of heresy in theancient church, and so coming up
with something new should makeus nervous.
But there's these treasures,new and old, and this essay in
here, which I believe wasGerhard Bode who retranslated it
or edited the translationBrilliant stuff, and it is
(37:19):
prescient.
It's incredible.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
So curious minds want to know does it deal deeply
with power struggles?
Yes, between the office and thepeople?
Yep, and it doesn't resolve thetension.
We need one another.
Speaker 4 (37:34):
Well, I think this essay, I think Kierkegaard,
doesn't resolve the tension,which is wise.
Speaker 3 (37:38):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (37:39):
But I think that this essay has some magnificent
solutions.
Can you give us a?
Speaker 2 (37:44):
couple or just off the top of your head.
I'm just, I'm going to read it.
I'm going to read it, butwhat's the solution?
Because I mean, this is a realthing Anytime.
I'm talking about priorapproval, right, I mean, and a
number of different structuresthat we're like.
Well, we need to examine these,because we could be going down
the power and control pathwayright now and a number of voices
(38:05):
may not be heard in the, in thewider church.
So I mean, this is a, this is avery real thing.
Who gets the right to make whatdecisions as it relates to our
life together as the church?
Right, I mean, this is a realthing, bob.
So I know, I'm asking you to,just you don't have to say
anything.
I just want you to quote it up.
Speaker 4 (38:25):
Quote it up, I could read some quotes, but I'm going
to do a very Waltharian thingfirst.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (38:30):
And I'm going to read his theses Waltharian thing
first, okay, and I'm going toread his theses, okay, okay, and
that, if that doesn't get yougoing, I don't know what will
but then maybe I'll read acouple of books.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
Okay, all right.
Speaker 4 (38:38):
It's the primary duty to be faithful to the
confessions and word and deedand therefore it must be without
reservation.
Confess the creeds of theevangelical Lutheran church,
except only pastors, teachersand congregations that are
faithful to that.
Supervise the confessionalfaithfulness of its members.
Practice fellowship only withchurch bodies that are faithful
to that.
Second thesis major duty of theSynod is that it faithfully
(39:04):
treat its congregations in anevangelical way and therefore
not assume a dictatorial roleover them, but only help them in
an advisory way.
Assist them to acquiring uprightpastors and teachers, protect
them against pastors who err indoctrine, follow an offensive
lifestyle and are domineering intheir office.
Third thesis it's a major dutythat it support its pastors and
teachers and therefore counselthem by supporting them in the
(39:26):
proper conduct of their officeand defend them against unjust
treatment.
Fourth thesis major duty isthat it promotes the growth of
its members and the knowledge ofthe truth in every way possible
and therefore give priority tohaving discussions in convention
and conferences, so not justhanding things down but having
conversations about it all,arranging both pastoral and
(39:49):
teacher conferences, reviewtheir minutes, evaluate things,
make every effort to disseminategood literature instead of just
saying this is the right answerThesis five major duty is to
strive for peace and unity andthe truth in its midst, and
therefore it sees to it that allmembers are mutually working
together, that they bear eachother's burdens in brotherly
(40:10):
love, that no unnecessarydisputes arise and are continued
.
Do you know how long we debatedthe lodge?
A long time, yeah, yeah, alittle bit yeah, from like 1847
to like World War II.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
Wow, that's a lot.
I mean, come on.
Speaker 4 (40:25):
Whether they have to do with doctrine or practice.
The sixth and final thesis it'sthe duty that it not seek its
own glory but the glory of God,being intent not so much on its
own growth but rather on thegrowth of Christ's kingdom and
the salvation of souls, andtherefore not employ dishonest
means but above all be intent onusing the gospel and all its
purity and fullness to win soulsand keep them much zeal for its
(40:49):
particular community, butrather living faith, unfamed
love and genuine godliness, andtake an enthusiastic and, as
much as possible, active part ina God-pleasing organization
dedicated to the spread ofChrist's kingdom in the world.
And this is the point becauseyou might have been snooze-fest
on the first couple of theses,thinking that's not what I like,
(41:09):
but by the end you're probablylike, yeah, that was pretty good
and this is standard Walther.
And people don't get this.
And the people who wear Waltherand his title and they're the
arbiters or harbingers ofWalther often act like they've
never read a syllable of him,because they say things in such
a officious way and they use itin such an authoritarian way
(41:34):
that not even Walter would agreewith it.
Here's my favorite example Areyou ready?
Speaker 2 (41:38):
I'm ready.
Speaker 4 (41:39):
It's from Law and Gospel In one of his theses
Luther or not Luther, excuse me,walter was talking about what's
our practice on baptism.
And he says if a person comesup to you and says, hey, I heard
your message today and I wouldlove to be baptized, cfw Walter
makes a joke.
He says, of course, what weshould do then is we should say
(42:00):
excellent, now take my eightweek course on baptism, and then
you'll be worthy enough to bebaptized.
And he says no, this is foolish.
Our policy is Acts, chaptereight.
Here is water.
What prevents me from beingbaptized?
Yeah, our policy is Acts,chapter eight.
Here is water.
What prevents me from beingbaptized and I think that's a
perfect example of what Waltheris a gift to the church for is
because we will wear Walther tosay he's all about doctrinal
(42:22):
purity.
Therefore, make sure everybodytakes an eight week course and
then you're worthy enough andhe's going.
No, just get some ditch waterand start baptizing folks.
So I think this is the fault offorgetting your history.
Speaker 3 (42:33):
Which is to Walther.
Pure doctrine, right, why wait?
And what is pure doctrine?
Speaker 4 (42:37):
but the gospel, yeah Right.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
Amen.
Speaker 4 (42:40):
Yeah.
So he's not a rationalist, jackRight, and he's not a pietist
Right no-transcript.
Speaker 2 (43:29):
I'm praying that we have more conversation around
points of.
Speaker 4 (43:35):
I would say oh, it's OG Heart, sorry OG Heart, yeah,
not Ogden it's OG.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
Heart Sorry, go ahead , og, heart All good, all good.
I'm just praying that we havemore charity and love for one
another and that when wedisagree, we disagree agreeably,
that when we disagree, wedisagree agreeably, and that
this kind of just goes kind ofhand in hand with cultural
discourse today and I like longform podcasts, especially with
(44:01):
people who are interesting, likeyou, who probably we could find
something, bob, that we kind ofwould nuance, disagree on.
But we agree on our confession,we agree on the.
Maintaining Lutheran doctrinemeans walking the tension filled
middle, middle way.
I mean, this is, this is ourbread and butter that we we do
(44:22):
for.
For those that are comfortable,we bring a word that makes
people uncomfortable and andvice versa, right.
We bring to the, to the personwho is just broken and hurting
and recognizing the log in ourown eye, help my unbelief.
We bring a word of love andcare and absolution and grace
(44:44):
and and if pastors do this withtheir people, which is what
we've been called to do, weshould do it with one another
with greater intensity.
So any, any thoughts therewe're at time, but this has been
awesome, bob Any thoughts on acall for dialogue rather than
tribalism.
Speaker 4 (45:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think one of the things thatmade the Missouri Ascended
successful in those early yearsis that we maintained a care for
our immigrant identity and ourmissionary zeal, and it was
never one over the other.
And so we had our schools topreserve our immigrant culture,
(45:21):
but also they were verymissional.
It was both, and we were verymuch interested about
maintaining our heritage, but wewere also very active, for
instance, in African Americanministry very early on, and
there's like five books on thehistory of the Missouri Synod's
earliest activity, working withpeople who were here in America
(45:43):
in the same kind of situation,and so those are the keys to our
success.
And so if I were to say whatcould we do in the future
Because I may be a little bitunique in that I worked on a
project called the Doctrine andResolution Project for Synod,
which is Missouri Senate from1847 to 2004.
(46:07):
And we transposed the Germanand translated it, so it's all
available.
But I think what we need is tonot have another resolution that
says the same thing, but weneed to call for action on
resolutions that we already have.
So, for instance, resolution509, the last convention, about
(46:32):
what's the difference betweenclosed and closed communion
right.
I think we don't need anotherresolution to say the same thing
as 509.
We just need to actually put adate on the calendar and have
that conversation and to do itin a brotherly way, in the way
that's guided by some of thewisdom that people in the past
(46:52):
like the duties of anevangelical Lutheran synod.
Maybe that'd be the homework.
And then we bring ourcontemporary situations and we
would admit that, for instance,america, we have an immigrant
history, so we have amulticultural America now and
maybe there's something to learnthere and culture is porous.
It's not defined just asethnicity, but it could be class
and belief and all these kindsof things.
(47:14):
And to just start having theconversations, my takeaway from
the later doctrinal resolutionsof Senate, like in the 2000s and
the 90s, was that we just kepton saying the same resolution
over and over again, but therewas no action, and so it's time
to get this family back togethereven though we can admit that
there's trauma and maybe havethat hard conversation and have
(47:37):
a big family meeting about it.
Maybe that can be a way that wecan honor the past and inspire
the future.
Does that make any sense?
Speaker 3 (47:46):
It does Sociologically?
Why do you think that there'sthis pattern of restating the
same resolutions?
What do you think is thethinking behind that, or the
motivation behind that?
Speaker 4 (47:56):
I think it's because they're saying that there's
still a problem.
This happens in your families,doesn't it?
When you're avoiding theproblem and it just keeps on
being said and keeps on beingbrought up.
And I really believe it may bebecause of unrepentant sin,
because people don't believethat they've sinned against one
another.
There's no confession andabsolution and ironically, the
church, body with the word andsacraments, won't practice
(48:17):
confession and absolutiontogether.
Or maybe we leave it in certainplaces and say, well, we had a
worship service, we didconfession and there was
absolution, so that's all done.
Well, just ask yourself, isthat how it works in a family?
Like, oh sorry, and then we godown the road and do the same
behavior.
You know what I mean I do doesthat?
answer your question, jack.
(48:37):
I think so, yes yeah, yeah did?
Speaker 3 (48:41):
I concern you no, no, no, I'm just insanely curious,
you know, like there's a reasonwhy.
There's a reason why,especially in a collectively,
when there's collective behavior, there's a reason and there's a
reason why, you know there's areason why, especially in a
collectively, when there'scollective behavior, there's a
reason and there's a culturethat's driving that.
And I think you've wisely saidthere's a history that drives
that right.
And so now we're still livingout our history.
(49:03):
It's interesting for me becauseI didn't grow up LCMS.
I'm grafted in, right, I'mgrafted in, and so I'm hearing
this from others and I thinksome of these things they don't
sit in my bones the way it mightsit in somebody else's bones,
you know.
Speaker 4 (49:18):
So it's just fascinating to me to try and
kind of um hear more about thiswell, I didn't come from the
missouri senate either, but Icame from a broken family and so
yeah, I think, uh, maybe somelearnings from.
Maybe, if people read thatessay and did some family
systems theory, you know wisdomthere.
Yeah, kind of check thosethings together.
Speaker 2 (49:38):
For sure.
Hey, bob, you're you're awesomeman.
Thank you for this conversation.
We just need to, by thespirit's power, get healthier in
our, in our walk together, andhistory is helpful and I think I
think history places us withthe appropriate posture in the
present, meaning we don't haveto get overly anxious about
(49:58):
things like we've been here andwe're going to continue to be
here because we're sinners, andwe need to get specific about
what sin is, how we haveoffended one another.
Come before the cross of JesusChrist, forgive and be forgiven
and unite in mission to make himknown.
Our doctrine is solid, it'sbeautiful.
Let's live it for the sake ofthe advancement and bring more
(50:21):
to be grafted in, as you justsaid, jack, into the Missouri
Synod.
Praise be to God, bob.
If people want to connect withyou and your ministry there at
Faith, how can they do so?
Speaker 4 (50:30):
I have an email.
I rarely I'm good at it, but Itry very hard.
You might see me around atthings and, if you, make eye
contact with me.
Speaker 2 (50:42):
I consider that kindness so same same.
This is a lead time.
Please comment like subscribe.
If you've got recommendationsfor anyone, especially along the
historical front, that would behelpful for us to frame up
Missouri's story for the sake ofthe future.
Please make somerecommendations and, bob, if you
ever wanted Holy Spirit putsome in your mind, hey, it'd be
fun for you to talk to thisperson.
(51:03):
We would love to have them onto continue this learning
journey.
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
Wonderful work, jack.
Thanks so much, bob.
Speaker 1 (51:15):
God bless friends, you've been listening to Lead
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The ULC's mission is tocollaborate with the local
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Subscribe to our channel, thengo to theuniteleadershiporg to
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(51:36):
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Thanks for listening and staytuned for next week's episode.
This is Lead Time.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Welcome to Lead Time.
This is Tim Allman and we gotJack Kauberg here and we're
going to have an awesomeconversation.
Before I get into it, jack,love and life.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
I am love and life man.
It's a great day to be here inArizona.
We just came off of I don'tknow when this podcast drops,
but we just came off of a veryintense two-day consultation in
our own trip how we can getbetter at multi-site ministry.
So that's been something, areal kind of eye-opening
experience.
Shout out to the people atUnstuck Group they're really
(00:34):
cool, really cool partners to behanging out with.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Yeah, if you get the chance to work with Unstuck, for
sure.
If multi-site is a part of yourpresent or your future, very,
very useful.
Today we get to hang out withRobert Sundquist, pastor
reverend Now.
I had you on my AmericanReformation, now the Tim Allman
podcast six months ago or so youwere right in the doctor
journey, is that?
(00:57):
Are you officially now areverend doctor, Robert?
Speaker 4 (01:00):
Nope, nope, nope.
They haven't found a way to getme yet.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Okay, all right, robert, nope, nope, nope, they
haven't found a way to get meyet.
Okay, so we're going to betalking Robert and I were
classmates from ConcordiaSeminary in St Louis back in the
day, both 2008 graduates, andwe're going to talk about the
early story of the LCMSconnected to CFW Walther, martin
, stephan and their kind ofbattle for control.
(01:24):
This goes into kind of theauthority of the local church
and Bob spoke where ourpresident, district president
Mike Gibson, heard him speak andhe told me he was like hey, tim
, you got to get.
You got to get Bob on to talkabout some of the history.
So, before we get in, I mean,you're a historian, your office
(01:45):
smells like rich mahogany andyou have many leather bound
books.
But, bob, why is understanding,why is understanding history so
important?
Just, and frame this up,because I got a son.
You know I'm like dude.
I told you history is important, man, I was a history major.
Understanding where we've comefrom, very important.
So phrase it up for peoplemaybe young or old, but people
are are like I don't really caremuch about the past.
(02:06):
What would you say to them?
Speaker 4 (02:08):
I would say that, um, they were likely not taught
history very well.
They were probably taughthistory as a discipline of
memorizing facts or dates, um,and and they felt obligated to
do so and it felt unimportant oruninspired, and so that's
probably what happened, and it'sa bummer, yeah, yeah, but
(02:29):
honestly, everybody is reallygood at history because we're
social beings and history is thestory of people.
And if you, if you want toinspire somebody to learn
history, tell them stories andtell them interesting stories.
History, tell them stories andtell them interesting stories,
because we actually do historyall the time.
I would venture that yourchildren are really good at
(02:50):
recounting the history of theirday, especially if there's a
drama or something going on or aconflict or celebration.
They'll tell you the history ofsuccess and they'll tell you
the agony of defeat and allthose kinds of things.
So we, by nature, are storiedbeings, and so that's what
history is and that's what makesit amazing.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Hey, yeah, that's it.
And the reason I love historyis because our God stepped down
into it, cared about us in timeand space and became flesh for
us.
The greatest historical beingthe world has ever known is the
person of Jesus Christ.
So I'm reading a book right nowcalled the Atlas Factor by a
guy by the name of Lance Ford.
I'm trying to get him on and hetalks about the various lenses
(03:35):
through which we understandhistory and, specifically,
leadership.
But I'm going to keep it at ahigh level of history with you.
There are multiple differentways we can look at it, and one
is kind of the hero man lens.
So you look at the WinstonChurchill as the primary
character in World War Two andeverything's kind of seen
(03:55):
through his lens, and I thinkthis can lead us to a short and
maybe even in our LCMS story.
This is where we're going to begoing.
We have different heroes and wehave different villains in the
story.
Right, and obviously for usit's CFW Walter he's like the
guy, and then Martin Stephan,evil guy, power hungry.
You know this kind of thing andit's obviously never that
(04:18):
simple, but human beings like tomake what is complex more
simple, and to do that we liketo find the heroes and the
villains of the story.
Say more there, Bob, if youwould, about that understanding
of the way we do history.
Speaker 4 (04:29):
So there's something in history called hagiography
and that's what you're talkingabout, and it's hero stories.
And an excellent example ofthis in America is Paul Bunyan,
who was likely a real person,but they make his story into a
grander story.
And it is a grander storybecause his story has nothing to
(04:50):
do with Paul Bunyan.
It has everything to do withthe American logging industry in
the North and immigrant culture.
And so his big blue ox did notcreate the Thousand Lakes of
Minnesota and he could not fella forest with the swing of his
ax, but his story, hishagiography, became the larger
story of things that wereactually happening.
(05:12):
And so all the way fromMinnesota to Moscow, idaho, you
know you have Paul Bunyan, butit wasn't Paul Bunyan, it was
Paul Bunyan with a thousandfaces.
And so Joseph Campbell kind ofgets into this with narrative
storytelling.
And so Joseph Campbell kind ofgets into this with narrative
storytelling.
And so any hero that you haveis telling a real story of a
larger representative storythat's going on.
(05:35):
And so you have CFW Walther,when Walther would not have
counted himself as a hero at all.
He may have thought of Loeber,or he may have thought of
Marbach, or he may have thoughtof other people as more
important to him.
Even later on in life, cfwWalther didn't have a lot of bad
things to say about somebodywho had a lot of hagiography,
(05:57):
which was Martin Stephan, whowas the person who helped a
group of immigrants to findfreedom of religion in America.
But he was the first celebritypastor of the Lutheran Church
Missouri Synod.
But, like today, you havecelebrity pastors that have a
lot of hagiography around themand fail.
So did Stephan.
(06:18):
He failed, which led tointeresting kind of consequences
in the Lutheran Church MissouriSynod.
You said battle.
I don't think they would havethought of it as a battle
between good and evil.
I think they would have thoughtof it as a traumatic fight that
happens inside of a family,that leads to a schism that is
(06:39):
deeply felt and its consequencesare probably still relevant
today.
Does that make sense?
It does, it does.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Jack, any response to that.
I'm just thinking about howoften that happens with so many
historical figures that we dealwith, like George Washington,
there's all kinds of crazyfolklore around him, you know,
cutting down the cherry tree andall that kind of stuff.
And there's all kinds offolklore surrounding Martin
Luther, right, like lots ofreally interesting stories that
a lot of times have beendebunked, but they're still part
of the narrative of that personbecause of his impact on us.
(07:09):
So that's really fascinating.
So is it your view then, withthese figures like Stefan and
Walther, that there's a lot offolklore tied to that?
That may or may not be true forthese characters.
Speaker 4 (07:23):
Yeah, for sure, and I think, to just speak for a
second about what people dotoday, since we live in a
society, a secular age, asCharles Taylor would want to say
, where we're a mosaic self,where we create our own
narrative and we manage it.
I think that we, before we die,want to be storied people, and
(07:43):
so the problem with today isthat people chasing after
experiences to story theirexistence so they can live their
own legend right now, which Ithink is folly, um, and I think
it's tragic, um and itsconsequences as we see in
culture today.
Um, I would say that um,there's a lot of hagiography
about you know, like uh, stefanand and walter.
(08:06):
One of the one of the mostdamning ones, uh for stefan, is
that he's often seen as a?
Um, as somebody who fooledaround with women.
Um, he was accused of that backin dresden when he was serving a
little bohemian congregation upthere in the 1830s, and that
stink just couldn't leave him.
(08:27):
When he came to the Americas,it was only after people were
very dissatisfied with hisperformance and his controlling
behavior.
His celebrity turned when hegot on the ship to come to
America.
So what ended up happening isthat old accusation came back,
but in our work at ConcordiaHistorical Institute in the
(08:48):
research department, we were notable to find one shred of
evidence that he actuallycommitted adultery.
There was accusations and noproof.
Even his maid, who followed himacross the river to Illinois
where he was banished for therest of his days, the river to
Illinois where he was banishedfor the rest of his days, it was
all just hearsay.
(09:08):
The truth of the matter is isthat he didn't follow the Billy
Graham rule.
Oh, if we only had Billy Graham.
You know today, you guys knowthe Billy Graham rule.
Say it.
The Billy Graham rule forclergy is that you never meet
with a lady alone.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Well, this is a great rule.
Speaker 4 (09:23):
It's an excellent rule which Stefan was completely
foolish about, and so he would.
He got used to in Dresdenhaving late night meetings
conventicles, if you will, ifyou're willing to accept that by
which he would go walking andpeople would join him for walks,
and some of them were ladiesand sometimes it was just ladies
and all that kind of stuff.
In america, when theirdissatisfaction about his well,
(09:48):
his performance, he, he lost allthe charisma when he, when he
became bishop, when they sworehim bishop on the way over
january 14th, um, on the ship1838, I think it was um when he
became bishop, all his charismaleft.
So everything that they wereenamored with him and his
celebrity pastorness was gone.
His preaching fell by thewayside.
(10:10):
He wasn't working on it, hebecame reclusive and suspicious,
him like thirty five hundreddollars as like a fee to come to
america and then he just kindof spent the money however he
wanted.
So there was very lowaccountability which would have
(10:31):
been big money back then.
right, yeah, it was a hundred.
Uh, what's called a hundreddollars?
It sounds like dollars, butit's t-h-a-l-e-s and so, um, you
know, they, they were all verydissatisfied and all of a sudden
, ladies were.
They came to a pastor namedLoeber and they confessed that
they felt like their time withhim was inappropriate.
(10:52):
And then Loeber broke the sealof confession and went and
ratted him out to Walther, whichwas hilarious when you think of
the vows that we take today,when you think of the vows that
we take today, which led to aseries of events his expulsion
from his house and, you know,expulsion into was it?
Horse Prairie, illinois, I don'tknow, someplace in Illinois.
(11:15):
They still have a Stephanitechurch over there today and,
yeah, that's kind of we got allthis hagiography about.
You know all that, but the factof the matter is we have no
proof that he actually did that.
But what we do have proof of isthat everybody's really angry
at him and they found a way toget rid of him that was
consistent with accusations fromGermany or, excuse me, from
(11:37):
Dresden and those areas into alittle institutional bullying,
you know.
And there we go.
Even if it was the right thingto do.
It was a pretty rough way totreat a guy.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Cue Lutheran snark.
Good thing we don't strugglewith that today.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
Oh, Lutheran snark is beautiful, yeah, because it's
bread and butter of who we are.
So again, to call it a fightmight be, or a battle might not
be true.
It's more like a really uglyfamily trauma.
Does that make sense?
Well, or a battle might not betrue, it's more like a really
ugly family trauma.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Yeah, does that make sense?
Well, it does, and it's just.
It was dysfunction, handledinappropriately.
Call a thing what a thing isyou know?
And if it's not that thingmeaning sexual immorality, then
please don't call it that unlessthere is proof and we have seen
lies damage reputation.
(12:27):
That's one of the biggest thingsthat human beings are afraid of
is reputation, savagery and theshame, the reputational shame,
that comes in a group of peoplethat you used to be close to and
now no longer are.
It's amazing, our hyper-indism,like we came over on the boat
and we immediately go after ourown way rather than taking the
(12:52):
long, messy Jesus way to restorea brother.
It's just, and I don't have alot of sympathy for Stephan.
I think his financialmismanagement was unwise, to say
the least, but I think youought to have an ounce of
compassion for the way the storywas handled and the
villainization that gets told ofthis man without, without proof
(13:13):
, anything more to say thereabout how we are to treat one
another today, because I thinkthat labels still exist today
and we still reputation savageconsistently, and this is this
is unfortunate in the lcmsrobert yeah, I think, uh, what
you're touching on is mentionednot on on, ironically in
luther's small catechism, in themeaning of the eighth
commandment.
Speaker 4 (13:34):
You know, um, we don't.
We don't destroy somebody'sreputation, you know, and?
But let's be a little fairbecause history is about being
even handed.
It is true that Martin Stephanwas very close to making the
Missouri Senate a faction byleaving the way that he did.
(13:55):
It is true that he he shouldhave stayed in St Louis and not
bought the, the, the rocky,unfarmable soil in Perry County.
It is true that it was veryunwise for him to become
controlling and withdrawn.
It is true that he did muchdamage by asking for his palace
(14:18):
to be built before they evenbuilt a town, while they were
all living in shanty.
So it is true, you know, thathe did all of these things
incorrectly and I believe itspeaks to a larger problem that
is still true in the churchtoday, which is pastors who see
themselves as um CEOs, cfos,small business managers, when
(14:44):
they have absolutely no trainingfor it.
We have been trained to do wordand sacrament ministry and what
I say to my guys when I teachis if it ain't word and
sacrament, it ain't yours.
Which this leads to the Marburgcolloquy and Bessie was like
let me handle the financials,because they had those trauma
from Stephan or Stephan.
And.
And then Walter was having ahard time trying to reconcile
(15:08):
that, but he eventually did.
Pastors are often put into theposition of being in charge of
things that they have nobusiness experience or gift for
being in charge of.
But let's just say that apastor maybe had the gift a
little bit of doing businessstuff.
Maybe he used to be and hestill has some skill in it.
Well, when he became a pastor,he agreed to no longer operate
(15:31):
in those things but only operatewith the tools that he's been
given, which is word ofsacrament.
Like, for instance, I'm reallygood at punching people in the
face.
I have a skill for it, but Idon't like bringing that into my
pastorate.
You know what I mean.
That's a good idea, but I don'tlike bring that into my
pastorate.
You know what I mean.
That's a good idea, so you know.
So I used to box.
That doesn't make me think.
Well, you know I have thisskill.
(15:51):
No, I set it aside because Ihave a new calling.
And so Stephan was put in aposition where he's operating
outside of his gift set becausehe was confusing the left and
the right hand kingdom.
They went with it because itfits this model of well, you're
the pastor, therefore you're incharge.
(16:11):
You're the pastor, you deal inword and sacrament.
And so part of it was aconfusion from the community,
which I still believe is presentin Lutheran churches in America
today, where a pastor gets inand they say well, you're in
charge of the budget, well, goahead.
Ask us how many classes we tookon accounting and AR and you
know all those kinds of thingsat seminary.
(16:33):
The answer you had it.
You made it handsome.
Yeah, accounts receivable.
Sorry, yeah, zero.
Ask us how many organizationalpsychology classes we took on
staff management.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Maybe like one, maybe if you say pastor is leader
maybe, but not like theintricate details of management.
Speaker 4 (16:48):
No, gosh, no, there's no way you can, yeah, yeah, how
to fire, you know staff and allthose kinds of things.
And so the problem is is whenthe pastor comes in, all of a
sudden they place all of thesethings onto him that are outside
of his office.
Now wise pastor says I'm goingto find the people that can do
(17:09):
that.
There we go, but I'm going tostay inside a word and sacrament
.
And so this was one of theearliest lessons and traumas in
the Missouri Synod which led toa lot of consequences for the
Missouri Synod having a fixationon the office of the holy
ministry.
Sorry, jack, but you weretrying to say something.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
No, no, no, it was good.
I was trying to stir the pot alittle bit here, because in our
context here at the church Timserves at, we've got a Carver
governance model, and so reallywhat that means is Tim is the
administrative lead of thischurch, right, and I was kind of
curious to hear Tim's take onthat in this conversation.
No, jack.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Yep, what's that?
I don't do much administration,no you don't.
I distinctly remember todaysaying there's a lot of projects
that I know we're going to bedoing and I'm excited to hear
how they get done so I can cheeron a team that's working very
hard to support the Office ofHoly Ministry, but it's not
(18:00):
specifically Word and SacramentMinistry.
I'm blessed to have just enoughwisdom to know what I don't
know, and it's pretty mucheverything but what Bob said,
and then I include Word Jack, aswhen I taught culture and love
and how we respect one anotherand how Jesus loved and cared
for one another.
(18:20):
So, as we're talking aboutdifferent opportunities for
change, all for the advancementof the kingdom, we're going to
do so in a way that honorsChrist and honors one another,
like that, that is, like I wantto make sure the fruit of the
Holy Spirit is seen.
We're a very passionate grouphere, bob, like there's there's
(18:40):
a lot of wonderful and, as anykind of organization that grows
in complexity, with a church anda school and a number of those
things, you're going to have themove, the interplay between
what are Adiaphora things whichI can release with strategy
types of things, and then how weend up here.
Here's the way I like to say it, bob, and I'll get your take on
(19:03):
this.
I do have, because thescriptures are clear go and make
disciples.
We need to be in the disciplebusiness baptize, teach, and so
that is, that is a vision.
Our community is growing and soI will preach toward reaching
people in the marketplace, inour homes, reaching people with,
with the gospel.
And then I have a group ofpeople who are open to train
(19:25):
different leaders and differentevangelists et cetera to do that
in their various contexts.
In my mind that's word work,right.
And some may say, well, that'sa vision.
Well, I don't know if it'svision per se, but it's.
Jesus left a vision Jerusalem,judea, samaria, to the ends of
the earth.
And so in our context, that hasto be a part of my word work.
But then the how that getsaccomplished, it varies, right,
(19:48):
in various different, how thetraining goes about for our
different small group leaders etcetera.
I don't have to be a part ofthat, I need to make sure it's
happening.
But the training mechanismsbehind the scenes work.
There's a lot of freedom towardthat end.
But then what I do monitor quiteclosely, and I would say it's
not just the advancement of thegospel but I do monitor the
(20:08):
culture that is here and I'mheld accountable toward that,
jack, by our board how wellpeople are loved and treated,
both who call this place theirchurch home and who are called
to serve here in this space as apart of their vocation.
Like, I'm seriously concernedabout that.
I view that all under word workin our community.
(20:31):
But the finance, the HR, all ofthe like, if I touch any of
that, oh my goodness, not good,not good.
And, jack, you and I justrecently had a conversation
around different staff coming.
Like I can have those kind ofconversations.
It's uncomfortable for me too.
So I would much assume,delegate to you and to a team
what it looks like behind thescenes to get the right people
(20:54):
here and to keep the rightpeople here who have the heart
and mind of Jesus.
I'm saying a lot but justletting people a little bit more
behind the curtain even of alarge church.
I view myself word andsacrament is my primary call,
obviously, and I can do otherthings, but that's what God has
called me to do.
Robert, any take on that?
Or Jack, I'll go to you andthen let Robert kind of finish
(21:15):
it up.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
Yeah, so I mean bouncing back to me.
It's so fascinating to mebecause I've I've functioned in
so many different governancestyles in the church, right, and
the first, the first style itwas, it was designed around
exactly, bob, what you'retalking about, whereas, like the
pastor, the pastor makes nobusiness decisions here.
(21:37):
Our team of lay people, they'regoing to make all the business
decisions here, decisions here,and that led to a certain amount
of dysfunction in the church,in that there seemed to be a
disconnect between the type ofvision that we were putting
together for ministry and maybe,like you know, how business
people were thinking about howto administer things.
Like there's just a disconnecthere, right, and I don't know,
(22:01):
maybe I guess the way I thinkabout it is kind of the Lutheran
way that we just hold a lot ofthings in tension, right, you
know.
But I do know that how wefunction now seems to be a lot
more healthier than how wefunctioned in the past.
But I also know that a lot ofpastors couldn't, maybe
necessarily couldn't, step intothe role that Tim is into this
(22:22):
function and maybe might notnecessarily be able to function
as well as Tim does, becausehe's very gifted in this area.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
I think more could if they were put in the right.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
Just in the ability to give away things and to
understand like Fair enough,fair enough, but that's just.
Speaker 2 (22:36):
That's just knowing what I don't know Right.
Knowing, really doubling down,bob, on what you say, stay in
your, stay in your lane Release,and I do.
And knowing, really doublingdown, bob on what you say, stay
in your lane release, and I dohave to have accountable
conversations around differentthings, but that's just the way
it goes.
That's again.
That's word work.
So I don't shy away fromdifficult conversations and the
biggest pain point for me, asI'm just highlighting here, is
(22:56):
character, is the heart and mindof Christ and the humility of
Jesus being seen in our team aswe go about our work.
Any observations there, bob?
We being seen in our team as wego about our work Any
observations there?
Speaker 4 (23:07):
Bob, we're letting you just kind of behind the
scenes into our church worldhere.
It's great.
No, that's fine.
Yeah, I would say that the realkey to doing that successfully,
which you probably would allagree with, is in those moments
when you are casting vision ordoing those kinds of things.
You're asking the question whattool am I using to do that?
Am I using business models andstrategies, or am I using the
(23:28):
word?
And as long as it's the wordand you're not doing theological
excuse, making like just giveme all the money, that's what
the Bible says, and I'll go makethe zoo.
As long as you're not beingspiritually abusive with the
word, then yeah, you're doing itcorrectly.
And then, at moments whenpeople are, for instance,
(23:49):
engaging you at a personal leveland it ceases to be about
confession and absolution, thenyou would be able to say, hey,
maybe you should seek the helpof a mental health professional,
because this is a littleoutside of my wheelhouse but it
takes a lot of humility to beable to do that to your point
about other pastors is becausethere's something very
(24:10):
intoxicating about power andcontrol, which is the lesson we
learned from Stephan.
There's something veryintoxicating about power and
control that you feel like as apastor, you get to be at all
these really heavy places inpeople's lives and it feels very
intoxicating to be able to bethe guy who says things and
people do stuff, and that's alure of the sinful flesh and of
(24:34):
the devil and of the world.
And this is where celebritypastors end up.
Going wrong is because theyhave nearly unrestricted access
to people, to money and tocelebrity, and what that creates
is a perfect invitation by yoursinful nature to do the wrong
thing and people put thecelebrity on the pedestal and
(24:56):
they're all so surprised whenthey give them all of those
things and then they fall intosin and Lutherans are sitting
back going, well, yeah, you know, that's our biblical
anthropology.
And so the same thing happenswith pastors is oh, pastor, what
should we do?
And you're just kind ofspitballing here and you're
using adverbs and adjectives andit sounds great, you know, and
(25:17):
everybody's loving your idea.
And then afterwards, after threeyears or so, they say, oh, we
didn't really want to do that,but we thought it made you happy
.
So we just said yes.
And you're going wait what?
Because your idea wasn't basedoff of your vocation in the word
or the sacraments it was basedoff of hey, let's go get stuff
done, you know, in the name ofJesus, and you create all, you
(25:40):
fall into all these traps.
And so, knowing your limitations, as Tim said, and being humble
enough to be able to accept themand to use the resources that
God has truly given into hischurch, which is word and
sacrament and the gift of people, the gift of the other, to be
able to say, hey, you're abusiness guy, funds for a
(26:00):
building before, but everybody'stelling me I got to do it, Will
you please, oh, please, oh,dear God, please help me.
Or when somebody sharessomething very personal and it's
outside of your pay grade.
Don't pretend to be theprofessional.
Instead, say I can help youwith the Word of Sacrament,
let's get some other peopleinvolved.
So that just takes a lot ofhumility.
(26:22):
Stephan didn't learn thatlesson, and now the Missouri
Senate has reacted so hard eversince, Ever since.
That?
Does that make any sense?
It does so, do you feel?
Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Tim.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
So I was going to ask if you felt that you know, do
you feel that Walther learnedthat lesson in the midst of
Stephan's failures?
You know, in terms of his workin founding the LCMS?
Speaker 4 (26:44):
I think Walther really struggled with that.
Again, it wasn't so clear of abattle between good and evil.
I mean, stephan was the personwho pulled him out of pietism.
Walther was drowning in Dresdenand pietism and this guy told
him he says there's this reallydynamic pastor and he's
confessional and he's reallygreat and he talks real pretty
(27:06):
and he's handsome and you knowhe's, he's Czech, so he's a
little, you know, it's likehaving a little tattoo peek out
of your sleeve like Ooh, he's.
You know he's edgy, he's Czech.
And so Walter wrote to him.
And Walter was really nervouswhen he wrote back because he
thought this guy's just going totell me that I'm doing the
wrong thing and I need to dothis instead of that.
He was very nervous.
And so when he read Stephan'sletter which asked him to appeal
(27:32):
to Christ you know, to go toChrist for comfort, not for your
own pietism Walther was verymuch changed in that moment.
So for Walther it wasn't so easyas to say, yeah, let's just get
rid of him.
I mean, it was ripping his gutsout.
It was very much like a divorceor a trauma in a family.
And so Walther suffered asevere depression, a very severe
depression, to the point wherethe majority of those immigrants
(27:55):
had wondered if they were evena church, you know, because they
were just confusedtheologically.
And so it took him a while andit took for him some very
careful work through scripture.
He was very much helped byLuther's kind of writings to
help to kind of clear the fog,and so it wasn't so easy.
There weren't horns onStephan's head and it was very
(28:17):
confusing.
This guy helped me to be thekind of pastor I am today.
But now he's bad.
And am I good?
Did we do the right thing?
Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Yeah, it does.
So you said that we should havestayed in St Louis.
That may have caught somepeople's attention.
Say why you think we shouldhave stayed in St Louis rather
than going down to Perry County.
Speaker 4 (28:39):
St Louis had more accountability, had more
accountability.
And that's exactly what Stephanneeded to stop acting the way
that he was.
And it was very clear that heliked Perry County because it
was super cheap.
It was super cheap and that wasvery suspicious to everybody.
They're like why is it?
Why is he so concerned aboutthat?
(29:00):
I mean, we gave them all thismoney.
You know what's the deal.
There were 700 immigrants, youknow, and they all ponied up
$3,500, you know back then.
And so it's like what's thedeal?
And so what stefan needed wasaccountability.
But he immediately startedwithdrawing himself when he got
to st louis.
When he took the steamboatwillie up to st louis, he didn't
(29:22):
even come off the boat.
He stayed in his luxury cabinall night and everybody was very
disappointed.
And then he snuck into hishotel rooms at night and stayed
very reclusive.
So he, st Louis was a placewhere he would have been held
accountable.
First time he preached in StLouis, the papers were running
like hey, there's this dynamite,you know, celebrity pastor from
(29:43):
Dresden, and everybody go andwatch him preach, and so and he
just tanked.
He tanked and I think it'sbecause he knew he couldn't hide
behind his celebrity anymore,and so it was just, it was just
rough.
So I think St Louis was thebetter option.
They should have stayed.
Should have stayed.
Yeah, that's that's fascinating.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Dfw Walther begins to .
After he comes out of the fog,he begins to kind of take on the
mantle of a new bishop of sorts.
What was it Go?
Speaker 4 (30:14):
ahead.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
He didn't like the bishop thing.
Yeah, he didn't use that termat all.
Speaker 4 (30:17):
Yeah, because that was a Steffen thing.
Okay, so he was just a pastor,yeah yeah, yeah, and so writing
a Congregational Rites of Truth.
Sorry to interrupt that, butWalter would like roll in his
grave right now.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
You know, if you heard that You're not a yeah,
cfw author, don't roll over,you're just a pastor.
Good, good Thanks.
Speaker 4 (30:33):
Just a good guy.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Just a good, just a good guy.
So well, you mentioned on acongregation's right to call
their pastor.
What was the background contextfor that?
Speaker 4 (30:42):
Because they believe that the church was generated
through the pastor rather thanthrough the congregation, and so
it became very clergy focusedrather than congregationally
focused.
And so we can do this littleexercise from the small
catechism, where it says in thesection on the office of the
keys, on absolution, that thisis the authority that Christ has
(31:07):
given to his church.
It doesn't say gave to hispastors or gave to his bishops
or his archbishops or hissynodical presidents Not that I
have anything wrong with theirsynodical president, but you
know, like that was veryrevelatory for them because they
had this kind of a episcopacythat just ruined their view of
(31:28):
what the church was.
And when they realized that theHoly Spirit has given these
gifts to the church church andit was the church's right to
choose a pastor, that, um, thatwas revelatory for them and it
really brought them back intomainline christianity, away from
the kind of factiousness thatthey were kind of working with
seems like we still have someroom for growth in terms of the
(31:51):
balance between the royalpriesthood and the office of
holy ministry, um, and even somelines of accountability.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
You know, I I've been to the convention, the last
three in it, and it, uh, is onerepresentation of the church,
but it obviously is very, verypastor, pastor and presidium and
district president, kind ofcentric.
It's very much a politicalfunction within the church and I
don't know that the laity andher voice is as loud today as I
(32:24):
pray her voice is into thefuture, and this is nothing
against the Office of HolyMinistry.
I think, in some circles though, we've spent too much time
talking about and frankly Icould be accused of this with
all that I've done talking aboutpastoral, this pastoral that
you know, and not enough aboutequipping, releasing all of the
gifts within the body of Christin all of her various vocations,
(32:48):
anything to say at just a highlevel, about how we in Missouri
can become imbalanced as itrelates to the Office of Holy
Ministry connected to the royalpriesthood.
Speaker 4 (32:56):
Well, I would say that the consequence of Stephan
and all of that and theMarlborough colloquy is that the
Missouri Senate had a hyperfixation on the office, and you
can see this in our publications.
We exponentially write moreabout the Office of the Ministry
than we do any other section,even the catechism which we use
the Dietrich's Catechism, if Iremember correctly, when we came
(33:16):
over, we moved the questionsand answers on the Office of the
Ministry forward and we added awhole bunch of questions and
answers which you want to see.
If an organization is dealingwith something, see what they
mentioned the most of, and sowe've always kind of had that.
I think that, honestly, a verygood work on this is CFW,
(33:37):
walther's Kirchenamt, or Churchand Ministry.
I think it would be excellentfor people to read that.
Or, for instance, he has aconvention letter which is
absolutely fantastic.
Tim, you're going to go get one, I'm going to go get one too.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
Okay, so we're both going to get one.
I want to see a church andministry Fascinating yeah.
Speaker 4 (33:55):
Kierkegaard Amt.
Yeah, I have here in my officethe original, the old school
translation and the new reader'stranslation.
This is the new reader'stranslation.
(34:31):
Just brilliant stuff, and Ithink that a lot of people will
say that they have read it,which is hilarious because if
they had read it, they wouldlikely not have some of the
problems that we're having today.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
What?
Speaker 4 (34:37):
should we read, bob?
What parts should we read?
What would be some keytakeaways that somebody might
get?
Go ahead and just read thewhole thing and here's what
you'll see.
Okay, I'll read the whole thingagain.
We will, I read it.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
I got to read it again.
Dust it off, baby.
Here we go.
Tim, have you ever read it?
Oh yeah, I read it at the semin.
Speaker 4 (34:48):
come on, yeah, yeah actually that's uh, that's
different.
That book that you just held up, that's uh, oh yeah well, it
shouldn't be the same thing, forgoodness sake yeah, that's a
study on the church and theministry, which proves my point.
It's a study of the lcms oh,it's not hilarious.
Cfw walter, which is yeah yoursmight be dark blue okay, I'm
still looking, but keep going sowhat walter does very well is
(35:12):
he talks both sides of thestruggle, where pastors need to
take their job very, veryseriously and do it very, very
well, which means representingthe laity as well.
But then, on the other extreme,he talks about the priest of
all believers, and he talksabout it in such extreme ways
that the only thing left is, asJack pointed out, attention, and
(35:34):
so we will never be able tosolve this.
There are people who tried tosolve this.
What?
The evangelical style, lutheransubstance, people, the
priesthood of all believers,people, I think even the oh,
ozzie Hoffman, the statement ofthe 44, you know, they tried to
do that too.
And it's just always when youtry and solve the tension, you
(35:55):
create a new problem or you justreinvent an old one.
Yeah, but you have to liveinside of this tension.
I think the best thing to readabout this is Kierkegaard's
Church and Ministry, but I haveone more, and it's just one
thing, and it's from thisWalther's Works.
Cph published one on churchfellowship.
Sounds like something you wantto nestle up to at night, right?
(36:17):
I just really would love toread about church fellowship.
Well, listen, I don't know of abetter contemporaneous essay
for our synod to be readingright now, than this one which
is Duties of an EvangelicalLutheran Synod right now, than
this one which is Duties of anEvangelical Lutheran Synod,
(36:37):
which is page 237 and followingin this work.
This is from the first IowaDistrict Convention in 1879 at
Fort Dodge, iowa, and it ishauntingly accurate to what's
going on in our synod today.
And this is another gift ofhistory.
You talked about why history isimportant.
The gift of history issometimes you don't need to have
(36:57):
new, because often innovationwell, actually innovation is the
definition of heresy in theancient church, and so coming up
with something new should makeus nervous.
But there's these treasures,new and old, and this essay in
here, which I believe wasGerhard Bode who retranslated it
or edited the translationBrilliant stuff, and it is
(37:19):
prescient.
It's incredible.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
So curious minds want to know does it deal deeply
with power struggles?
Yes, between the office and thepeople?
Yep, and it doesn't resolve thetension.
We need one another.
Speaker 4 (37:34):
Well, I think this essay, I think Kierkegaard,
doesn't resolve the tension,which is wise.
Speaker 3 (37:38):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (37:39):
But I think that this essay has some magnificent
solutions.
Can you give us a?
Speaker 2 (37:44):
couple or just off the top of your head.
I'm just, I'm going to read it.
I'm going to read it, butwhat's the solution?
Because I mean, this is a realthing Anytime.
I'm talking about priorapproval, right, I mean, and a
number of different structuresthat we're like.
Well, we need to examine these,because we could be going down
the power and control pathwayright now and a number of voices
(38:05):
may not be heard in the, in thewider church.
So I mean, this is a, this is avery real thing.
Who gets the right to make whatdecisions as it relates to our
life together as the church?
Right, I mean, this is a realthing, bob.
So I know, I'm asking you to,just you don't have to say
anything.
I just want you to quote it up.
Speaker 4 (38:25):
Quote it up, I could read some quotes, but I'm going
to do a very Waltharian thingfirst.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (38:30):
And I'm going to read his theses Waltharian thing
first, okay, and I'm going toread his theses, okay, okay, and
that, if that doesn't get yougoing, I don't know what will
but then maybe I'll read acouple of books.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
Okay, all right.
Speaker 4 (38:38):
It's the primary duty to be faithful to the
confessions and word and deedand therefore it must be without
reservation.
Confess the creeds of theevangelical Lutheran church,
except only pastors, teachersand congregations that are
faithful to that.
Supervise the confessionalfaithfulness of its members.
Practice fellowship only withchurch bodies that are faithful
to that.
Second thesis major duty of theSynod is that it faithfully
(39:04):
treat its congregations in anevangelical way and therefore
not assume a dictatorial roleover them, but only help them in
an advisory way.
Assist them to acquiring uprightpastors and teachers, protect
them against pastors who err indoctrine, follow an offensive
lifestyle and are domineering intheir office.
Third thesis it's a major dutythat it support its pastors and
teachers and therefore counselthem by supporting them in the
(39:26):
proper conduct of their officeand defend them against unjust
treatment.
Fourth thesis major duty isthat it promotes the growth of
its members and the knowledge ofthe truth in every way possible
and therefore give priority tohaving discussions in convention
and conferences, so not justhanding things down but having
conversations about it all,arranging both pastoral and
(39:49):
teacher conferences, reviewtheir minutes, evaluate things,
make every effort to disseminategood literature instead of just
saying this is the right answerThesis five major duty is to
strive for peace and unity andthe truth in its midst, and
therefore it sees to it that allmembers are mutually working
together, that they bear eachother's burdens in brotherly
(40:10):
love, that no unnecessarydisputes arise and are continued
.
Do you know how long we debatedthe lodge?
A long time, yeah, yeah, alittle bit yeah, from like 1847
to like World War II.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
Wow, that's a lot.
I mean, come on.
Speaker 4 (40:25):
Whether they have to do with doctrine or practice.
The sixth and final thesis it'sthe duty that it not seek its
own glory but the glory of God,being intent not so much on its
own growth but rather on thegrowth of Christ's kingdom and
the salvation of souls, andtherefore not employ dishonest
means but above all be intent onusing the gospel and all its
purity and fullness to win soulsand keep them much zeal for its
(40:49):
particular community, butrather living faith, unfamed
love and genuine godliness, andtake an enthusiastic and, as
much as possible, active part ina God-pleasing organization
dedicated to the spread ofChrist's kingdom in the world.
And this is the point becauseyou might have been snooze-fest
on the first couple of theses,thinking that's not what I like,
(41:09):
but by the end you're probablylike, yeah, that was pretty good
and this is standard Walther.
And people don't get this.
And the people who wear Waltherand his title and they're the
arbiters or harbingers ofWalther often act like they've
never read a syllable of him,because they say things in such
a officious way and they use itin such an authoritarian way
(41:34):
that not even Walter would agreewith it.
Here's my favorite example Areyou ready?
Speaker 2 (41:38):
I'm ready.
Speaker 4 (41:39):
It's from Law and Gospel In one of his theses
Luther or not Luther, excuse me,walter was talking about what's
our practice on baptism.
And he says if a person comesup to you and says, hey, I heard
your message today and I wouldlove to be baptized, cfw Walter
makes a joke.
He says, of course, what weshould do then is we should say
(42:00):
excellent, now take my eightweek course on baptism, and then
you'll be worthy enough to bebaptized.
And he says no, this is foolish.
Our policy is Acts, chaptereight.
Here is water.
What prevents me from beingbaptized?
Yeah, our policy is Acts,chapter eight.
Here is water.
What prevents me from beingbaptized and I think that's a
perfect example of what Waltheris a gift to the church for is
because we will wear Walther tosay he's all about doctrinal
(42:22):
purity.
Therefore, make sure everybodytakes an eight week course and
then you're worthy enough andhe's going.
No, just get some ditch waterand start baptizing folks.
So I think this is the fault offorgetting your history.
Speaker 3 (42:33):
Which is to Walther.
Pure doctrine, right, why wait?
And what is pure doctrine?
Speaker 4 (42:37):
but the gospel, yeah Right.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
Amen.
Speaker 4 (42:40):
Yeah.
So he's not a rationalist, jackRight, and he's not a pietist
Right no-transcript.
Speaker 2 (43:29):
I'm praying that we have more conversation around
points of.
Speaker 4 (43:35):
I would say oh, it's OG Heart, sorry OG Heart, yeah,
not Ogden it's OG.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
Heart Sorry, go ahead , og, heart All good, all good.
I'm just praying that we havemore charity and love for one
another and that when wedisagree, we disagree agreeably,
that when we disagree, wedisagree agreeably, and that
this kind of just goes kind ofhand in hand with cultural
discourse today and I like longform podcasts, especially with
(44:01):
people who are interesting, likeyou, who probably we could find
something, bob, that we kind ofwould nuance, disagree on.
But we agree on our confession,we agree on the.
Maintaining Lutheran doctrinemeans walking the tension filled
middle, middle way.
I mean, this is, this is ourbread and butter that we we do
(44:22):
for.
For those that are comfortable,we bring a word that makes
people uncomfortable and andvice versa, right.
We bring to the, to the personwho is just broken and hurting
and recognizing the log in ourown eye, help my unbelief.
We bring a word of love andcare and absolution and grace
(44:44):
and and if pastors do this withtheir people, which is what
we've been called to do, weshould do it with one another
with greater intensity.
So any, any thoughts therewe're at time, but this has been
awesome, bob Any thoughts on acall for dialogue rather than
tribalism.
Speaker 4 (45:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think one of the things thatmade the Missouri Ascended
successful in those early yearsis that we maintained a care for
our immigrant identity and ourmissionary zeal, and it was
never one over the other.
And so we had our schools topreserve our immigrant culture,
(45:21):
but also they were verymissional.
It was both, and we were verymuch interested about
maintaining our heritage, but wewere also very active, for
instance, in African Americanministry very early on, and
there's like five books on thehistory of the Missouri Synod's
earliest activity, working withpeople who were here in America
(45:43):
in the same kind of situation,and so those are the keys to our
success.
And so if I were to say whatcould we do in the future
Because I may be a little bitunique in that I worked on a
project called the Doctrine andResolution Project for Synod,
which is Missouri Senate from1847 to 2004.
(46:07):
And we transposed the Germanand translated it, so it's all
available.
But I think what we need is tonot have another resolution that
says the same thing, but weneed to call for action on
resolutions that we already have.
So, for instance, resolution509, the last convention, about
(46:32):
what's the difference betweenclosed and closed communion
right.
I think we don't need anotherresolution to say the same thing
as 509.
We just need to actually put adate on the calendar and have
that conversation and to do itin a brotherly way, in the way
that's guided by some of thewisdom that people in the past
(46:52):
like the duties of anevangelical Lutheran synod.
Maybe that'd be the homework.
And then we bring ourcontemporary situations and we
would admit that, for instance,america, we have an immigrant
history, so we have amulticultural America now and
maybe there's something to learnthere and culture is porous.
It's not defined just asethnicity, but it could be class
and belief and all these kindsof things.
(47:14):
And to just start having theconversations, my takeaway from
the later doctrinal resolutionsof Senate, like in the 2000s and
the 90s, was that we just kepton saying the same resolution
over and over again, but therewas no action, and so it's time
to get this family back togethereven though we can admit that
there's trauma and maybe havethat hard conversation and have
(47:37):
a big family meeting about it.
Maybe that can be a way that wecan honor the past and inspire
the future.
Does that make any sense?
Speaker 3 (47:46):
It does Sociologically?
Why do you think that there'sthis pattern of restating the
same resolutions?
What do you think is thethinking behind that, or the
motivation behind that?
Speaker 4 (47:56):
I think it's because they're saying that there's
still a problem.
This happens in your families,doesn't it?
When you're avoiding theproblem and it just keeps on
being said and keeps on beingbrought up.
And I really believe it may bebecause of unrepentant sin,
because people don't believethat they've sinned against one
another.
There's no confession andabsolution and ironically, the
church, body with the word andsacraments, won't practice
(48:17):
confession and absolutiontogether.
Or maybe we leave it in certainplaces and say, well, we had a
worship service, we didconfession and there was
absolution, so that's all done.
Well, just ask yourself, isthat how it works in a family?
Like, oh sorry, and then we godown the road and do the same
behavior.
You know what I mean I do doesthat?
answer your question, jack.
(48:37):
I think so, yes yeah, yeah did?
Speaker 3 (48:41):
I concern you no, no, no, I'm just insanely curious,
you know, like there's a reasonwhy.
There's a reason why,especially in a collectively,
when there's collective behavior, there's a reason and there's a
reason why, you know there's areason why, especially in a
collectively, when there'scollective behavior, there's a
reason and there's a culturethat's driving that.
And I think you've wisely saidthere's a history that drives
that right.
And so now we're still livingout our history.
(49:03):
It's interesting for me becauseI didn't grow up LCMS.
I'm grafted in, right, I'mgrafted in, and so I'm hearing
this from others and I thinksome of these things they don't
sit in my bones the way it mightsit in somebody else's bones,
you know.
Speaker 4 (49:18):
So it's just fascinating to me to try and
kind of um hear more about thiswell, I didn't come from the
missouri senate either, but Icame from a broken family and so
yeah, I think, uh, maybe somelearnings from.
Maybe, if people read thatessay and did some family
systems theory, you know wisdomthere.
Yeah, kind of check thosethings together.
Speaker 2 (49:38):
For sure.
Hey, bob, you're you're awesomeman.
Thank you for this conversation.
We just need to, by thespirit's power, get healthier in
our, in our walk together, andhistory is helpful and I think I
think history places us withthe appropriate posture in the
present, meaning we don't haveto get overly anxious about
(49:58):
things like we've been here andwe're going to continue to be
here because we're sinners, andwe need to get specific about
what sin is, how we haveoffended one another.
Come before the cross of JesusChrist, forgive and be forgiven
and unite in mission to make himknown.
Our doctrine is solid, it'sbeautiful.
Let's live it for the sake ofthe advancement and bring more
(50:21):
to be grafted in, as you justsaid, jack, into the Missouri
Synod.
Praise be to God, bob.
If people want to connect withyou and your ministry there at
Faith, how can they do so?
Speaker 4 (50:30):
I have an email.
I rarely I'm good at it, but Itry very hard.
You might see me around atthings and, if you, make eye
contact with me.
Speaker 2 (50:42):
I consider that kindness so same same.
This is a lead time.
Please comment like subscribe.
If you've got recommendationsfor anyone, especially along the
historical front, that would behelpful for us to frame up
Missouri's story for the sake ofthe future.
Please make somerecommendations and, bob, if you
ever wanted Holy Spirit putsome in your mind, hey, it'd be
fun for you to talk to thisperson.
(51:03):
We would love to have them onto continue this learning
journey.
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
Wonderful work, jack.
Thanks so much, bob.
Speaker 1 (51:15):
God bless friends, you've been listening to Lead
Time, a podcast of the UniteLeadership Collective.
The ULC's mission is tocollaborate with the local
church to discover, develop anddeploy leaders through biblical
Lutheran doctrine and innovativemethods To partner with us in
this gospel message.
Subscribe to our channel, thengo to theuniteleadershiporg to
create your free login forexclusive material and resources
and then to explore ways inwhich you can sponsor an episode
(51:36):
.
Thanks for listening and staytuned for next week's episode.
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