March 18, 2025 • 42 mins
Jim Sanft, President and CEO of Concordia Plan Services, breaks down the differences between single-employer church plans and multiple-employer denominational benefit programs like CPS. He offers crucial insights on how CPS's governance structure provides strong protection for LCMS workers' retirement security.
• Addressing a recent Wall Street Journal article about problems in church retirement plans
• Why CPS's planned retirement contribution increases demonstrate proactive governance, not underlying problems
• The economic and ministerial benefits of investing in church worker wellness initiatives
• How CPS's multiple-employer approach provides protection and advantages individual congregations couldn't achieve alone
• Upcoming district health strategies that will bring wellness initiatives to the local level
• The importance of lay leaders creating a culture that supports worker wellness
• Jim's announcement of his planned retirement at the end of 2026 and the succession planning underway
Connect with Jim at jimsanft@concordiaplans.org to learn more about CPS services or to discuss church worker wellness initiatives.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is Lead Time.
Welcome to Lead Time, timAllman, here with Jack Kauberg.
It's a great day to be alive,jack.
How you doing Loving life, dude.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Doing fantastic, sir.
It's a wonderful day.
Wonderful day, yeah for sure.
Beautiful time in Arizona.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
It is delightful right now, for sure, it's very
cold in other parts of thecountry and my wife since you
bring up cold and different or Ibring it up my wife was just in
Crookston, minnesota, and itwas negative 20 for a high up by
Canada.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
The high was negative 20.
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
That is very, and then she flew down here.
It was like 100 degreesdifferent.
She lands there, it's like 80degrees, like on the other side
of the world that's like a shockto the system.
Right it is.
It is a shock, but it's a shockto the system, right it is.
It is a shock, but a good shock.
Coming back here, we love beinghere minus about three, four
months out of the year.
So today we get to hang out withthe president CEO of Concordia
(00:55):
Plan Services.
His name is Jim Sanf and overtime Jim has become a good
friend and partner in the gospel.
I pray for you and appreciateeverything that CPS does for us
in the Lutheran Church MissouriSynod.
It's a unique organization.
I just love hanging out withyou, jim.
You have a great disposition,you're fun to hang out with.
(01:20):
The joy of Jesus is on you.
You're a churchman and you havegifts Just as why I like
hanging out with you too, jack.
You have gifts that the body ofChrist definitely needs as an
actuary and a numbers guy allthat kind of stuff.
You're just awesome, jim.
So how are you doing, buddy?
Thanks for hanging out with us.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
I'm doing fine.
Thanks so much.
Your eyes are very gracious.
I am just humbled to be able toserve God, his church, his
people in this capacity.
It's just a real pleasure.
Real pleasure to serve.
So thank you for the kind words.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Oh for sure, From the heart for sure.
So let's get into what's mostcurrent.
You sent me an email just today.
Front page of the Wall StreetJournal there was an article on
church worker retirement plans.
You said it was not all thatpositive.
So let's just start withnormally.
We start with good stuff.
Let's start with some harderstuff, though.
Jim.
Tell us about the article.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Well, yeah, you know, and actually I don't think it
is bad stuff you know, when youget to the headline and you go
through it and see what's thesubstance in the article,
there's a story there that needsto be told.
And then I think it's justreally important that we
understand sort of that compareand contrast, so what's going on
in the story versus what'sgoing on in our world.
And so I thought, with thetimeliness of this podcast, it
(02:33):
might be something we want to,you know, want to lean into.
So you can see sort of the toneof it right in the headline
church retirement plan sidestepfederal oversight and employees
pay the price.
So that's a pretty captivatingheadline.
And you know, the Concordiaretirement plan is a church plan
under federal law and we canget geeky in a lot of the
(02:54):
details.
I'm an actuary, not an attorney,but we can get into a lot of
the different regulatoryenvironment.
But it's important tounderstand that our church
claims do operate in a differentlegal regulatory space.
It's important to understandthat our church claims do
operate in a different legalregulatory space.
You know we are a multipleemployer denominational benefit
program under the governance ofthe Lutheran Church Missouri
Synod.
When you go through this storyand what I'd say is there have
(03:19):
been some bad actors and badcases in this regulatory space.
They tend to be predominantly asingle employer and
specifically Catholic hospitalsystems, and at the core of it
is they're trying to run abusiness, they're trying to run
a hospital rather than manage aretirement program.
And so when you look at thisbody of legislation as put in
(03:42):
the 1970s, you know, you knowCongress saw that there are
those you know in the corporatesector who weren't paying enough
attention to their retirementprograms and said you know, we
need to put some boundaries inhere and some guardrails.
And so they enacted a Risk andEmployment Retirement Income
Security Act of 1974, and thatgoverns most.
(04:05):
You know, pension plans in theUnited States.
There's plenty of entitiesthough that are exempt state.
You know municipal plans andyou know, and so on.
You know regulation is aninteresting thing, you know.
Once the regulations start,then they start to get into the
operations and tell acorporation how they need to
(04:26):
operate their retirement plan.
This is not our primary sort ofdefense, but ultimately you do
get to a bit of a separation interms of perhaps a requirement
from the government to conductour business a certain way way
and we have the opportunity inthe First Amendment to say no,
(04:46):
we're going to operate it theway we feel that it's
appropriate for us to run and tostructure it.
We don't have a central HRdepartment, for example.
But that's not really theprimary argument.
The primary argument is thatchurch plans were existing in
some cases for centuries andwe've been running them well
these multiple employerdenominational benefit plans In
the case of our plan.
And we've been running themwell these multiple employer
denominational benefit plans Inthe case of our plan.
(05:08):
And you know we work closelywith our counterparts in other
denominations.
There's a separate ConcordiaPlan Services Board who are also
trustees of the ConcordiaRetirement Plan.
We just came off two days ofmeetings with them.
This is their sole focus is toact as trustees on your behalf,
guarding the integrity of thetrust.
(05:28):
They're not trying to operate ahospital or any other such type
of business.
This is what they focus on.
You know, I think in one of myrecent conversations with you,
you know we talked about thatrate increase right that was
coming into the Concordiaretirement plan 1% a year for
the next three years.
(05:49):
I'm going to submit to you thatI think that rate increase is
not evidence that there's aproblem.
That rate increase is actuallyevidence that it's working right
.
We don't have a currentemergency.
We see probabilities ofproblems down the road and so
the board says you know, we needto bring more cash into the
plan now.
That is evidence of them doingtheir due diligence work right.
(06:12):
It's not evidence of a problemin a plan.
So, as you look at these storiesthat are in the Wall Street
Journal, they're real stories.
Real people got hurt.
There's tragedies here.
Right, there is more than justa grain of truth in Theo
Francis' article.
It's just, you know, they onlytold part of the story, right?
(06:32):
So in our case, what we reallytry to differentiate when I'm on
Capitol Hill or other placesand I'll go back to you know he
interviewed me, but it was afterhe had submitted his draft and
gave it to the editors, and youknow I really worked with him to
talk about and understand thedifference between the single
employer and the multipleemployer.
(06:53):
Virtually all of thesesituations are in that single
employer space where they tookthe eye off the ball, and we're
just frankly not doing that.
I want to talk abouttransparency.
Senate Board of Directorsappoints our board 100%.
They put experts onto our board.
Chief Financial Officer ofSenate sits on the board.
He sees every one of thesereports and he's got the
(07:13):
bandwidth to understand, absorb.
He knows exactly what he'sreading.
President Harrison has hisrepresentative on board.
Reverend Dr Roger Pavla.
Harrison has his representativeon board.
Reverend Dr Roger Pavla, youknow a second career guy.
You know, former hospitaladministrator, brilliant
business side, still greattheologian heart for the church.
You know these guys aren'tcoming in giving a pass.
(07:35):
They understand very clearlywhat's at stake.
Financials are, you know, fullydisclosed.
You all can get copies of ouraudit financial statements.
So there's daylight everywherein this whole thing, plus our
process review, outside expertstaking a look at this thing.
The process, process, process.
(07:56):
This thing is locked up tightand so it's just very different
than the facts and circumstancesin the cases that you saw there
.
I'm going to say, with oneexception, they do bring up in
the article sort of a real-timecase and that's the African
Methodist Episcopalian Church,which, I'm going to say, maybe a
year, year and a half ago, sothey announced that they had a
(08:17):
significant issue.
This is still beinginvestigated, but there is a
likelihood that there's criminalactivity, you know.
So you can't regulate awaycriminal activity right.
So they broke laws.
They would have brokeregulations.
So you know that's going to runits course.
But I think what's reallyinteresting is the AME church
stood up and said you know we'regoing to stand by these
(08:40):
retirees and these members andmake them whole and they're
working hard to do that as bestthey can.
There are some who were involvedthat there is litigation going
on there where they're lookingto secure, you know, funds to
help with that promise.
And then Westpath, which is theretirement benefit provider,
sort of our comparableorganization with the United
(09:02):
Methodist Church, they'restepping in to help create
retirement solutions on a goingforward basis.
Obviously they can't bringfunding in to restore the past,
but they are stepping upalongside another Methodist
denomination and the pointreally here is their church is
stepping up to own the issue,which is also very different
than what you see going on inthose single employer cases.
(09:23):
So you know my real key here isyou read the story,
differentiate those singleemployer versus our multiple
employer denominational plansand then please understand the
great due diligence andgovernance that goes on to you
as Concordia Retirement Planmembers and to those you work
with, that you know we'rededicated to that process and
(09:44):
bringing the professionalisminvestment experts, actuaries,
finance attorneys you know, andI guess I could put it this way,
none of you can do that on yourown, but together we can do
that right and bring in thatgroup of experts to manage it,
which brings you back again towhat an honor and privilege it
(10:05):
is to you know steward theseresources of the church on
behalf of our, so many of ourchurch workers.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Amen, thank you.
Hey, was CPS actually mentionedin the article?
No, no, we're not in thearticle and the way that the
reporter came to me is.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
you know I mentioned our work with other
denominations, specifically theChurch Alliance, 34 different
organizations like ConcordiaPlanned Services.
I have the honor of serving aschair of the Church Alliance,
and so my interview with TheoFrancis from the Wall Street
Journal was in my role as chairof the Church Alliance, not in
(10:46):
my role as CEO of ConcordiaPlain Services.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Was there Church Alliance plans listed in that
article that went out with theWall Street Journal?
No, no, no, that's interesting.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
All of the difficult situations are those single
employer which they would not beeligible to be part of the
church alliance, the AME.
They would be eligible to be inbut they are not a member of
the church alliance.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
All right, well, just real quick Tim.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
I just want to share how thankful I am that we have
an organization like ConcordiaPlanned Services instead of
thousands of LCMS churchestrying to figure this out on
their own, and just imagine themess and the inconsistency.
And, like you said, theproblems are with these single
employer entities.
Right, trying to figure out howto create a retirement plan,
(11:38):
that is a tall order for a verysmall entity to try and figure
out.
And you know, other than doinglike a 401k, I don't know how
they would get their headwrapped around doing something
like that.
That that is right.
That is quite an ordeal, wow.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Yeah, and you know you can buy a you know retail
401k or savings vehicle, but thefees are going to be so
exorbitant because you have noleverage.
You know, as we take our youknow investments out there in
the marketplace, we have $5billion plus of assets under
management.
That means we can go in andnegotiate like you can't do
(12:16):
individually too.
So just because you can get aproduct, it's just nowhere near
the kinds of things we can dowalking together, which maybe,
tim, I'm going to use that as asegue in what we wanted to talk
about originally you know, isthat church worker wellness I,
you know think is a place wherewe can say you know, we can
(12:36):
really demonstrate that value ofwalking together and the value
here in this whole area ofchurch worker wellness.
So I don't think.
I'm as the guest supposed to dothat but, I, think.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
I just handed the host the segue.
Yeah, yeah, that was a goodsegue.
Well done.
No, before we do go fully there, I you know people may have
certain perceptions of mebecause of the struggles we have
around church worker formationand we're in a long conversation
in the same direction there, ina long conversation in the same
(13:06):
direction there, and I valuehighly the strategic national
alliances such as LCEF, cps, thefoundation I'm sure I could go
down a list of other kind ofnational RSO groups that help us
just work better togethernationally.
That there's no way.
And, jack, you and I talk scalean awful lot, like you have
(13:28):
leveraged because of the breadthof the workers that you care
for, the power of scale and it'sbenefiting the entire body.
So, yeah, let's work through alot of our you know all this
kind of stuff, but let's do itin a way that's going to keep
the resources and the primaryresource being people, the asset
(13:48):
being people, who are in all ofour schools and all of our
churches, being cared forthrough ministries like CPS.
So I'm a strong fan, brother, sogood.
So let's get into church workerwellness.
Why does CPS care about churchworker wellness at all?
Break that down for us, jim,because I see a lot of great
things, a lot of greatapproaches, incentives, et
cetera coming through CPS towardchurch worker wellness.
(14:09):
Talk a little bit there fromyour heart.
Well, you know.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
I think you know.
Let's just go right to oursynod constitution.
One of our objectives forforming a synod, one of the
reasons we come togetherspecifically Objective 10, is to
care for church workers.
Speaker 4 (14:23):
So wherever that?
Speaker 3 (14:24):
got put into place, it was recognized that scale
does matter, that we can bebetter together.
It is one of those objectivesand I like to share with my
friends.
You know, dave Fiedler withBart Day they don't get an
objective of synod, but I've gotan objective of synod with
Bertie Plank.
That's all men in jest.
I love those guys and they'redoing great work.
But there we are.
We're in there as an objective,but that's not really, I think,
(14:47):
where the core power is in thisright.
It really is in that power ofaggregation and the things that
we can accomplish where we'rebringing tens of thousands of
people together and can dothings a little bit differently.
Right, we're running this allthrough self-insured trusts.
We're not bringing in thebureaucracy of the insurance
(15:07):
company Now we use them to doadministrative work for us, but
we're really insuring each other.
It really is that churchwalking together and so if we
invest in our church workerhealth and wellness, we are
reducing costs over the longterm.
Insurance companies are reallyonly looking for that short-term
(15:28):
gain because they know thatbusiness turns every few years.
I'm not going to invest in thelong term because the reality is
I'm saving my competitor moneydown the road.
So we will invest in thesethings because we know you guys
are 10, 20, 30, 40, 50-yearcustomers and so if we bend the
(15:48):
curve a little today, we'rereaping that for decades.
And if you look at our historyof rate increases, they are way
lower than market.
Right, we're seeing that thosewho get involved in health and
wellness programs are loweringthe cost.
That means there's more dollarsstaying in ministry, I get this
stuff as expensive You'reprobably writing.
(16:09):
The biggest check you write tois probably the Concordia Plains
services.
But in the self-insured trust,what it means, we're just paying
the claims of church workers,right, you don't have the big
overhead, the bureaucracy, thosekinds of things.
This is the care our workersare demanding.
Let's make sure we take care ofit.
But that investment, then, inhealth and wellness not always
(16:31):
in our DNA it's why we cometogether but it does reduce cost
over the long run.
We can come at it another angletoo.
Corporate America Line willfind out.
You know, if we invest in thehealth of our workers, we see
enhanced productivity, we seeenhanced satisfaction, you see
enhanced morale.
People are healthier, morevibrant.
(16:52):
Right, we can keep top workers.
That's what the secular worlddoes, and to me in a church
setting man.
We should be all over thatright.
We should be leading with ourpeople.
I know that's the last thing Igot to, but it's the most
important right.
Ministry is done by people.
It's done by you guys there inthe trenches and I haven't been
(17:12):
there, but I can see with myfriends.
Ministry is hard, and so whatare those things that we can do
to help you be stronger, moreresilient and oh, by the way, it
does reduce costs in the longrun.
Tim, you talk a lot andunderstand about ministry
formation and that pipeline ofpeople coming in, but you know,
this work and wellness is a wayof keeping you healthier and
(17:34):
keeping you in the game right,so that if we can keep more
people in the game, that's fewerpeople you have to replace.
So this is also this entirerecruitment and retention
strategies that we have workingtogether as a church at large.
And so, yeah, I get excitedabout this, because where else
can an actuary apply all of thismath and all of this stuff to a
(17:58):
group of people that I dearlylove, the ministries I love and
really see great work impactingthe kingdom going forward.
That's what we get a charge outof here caring for workers
serving our ministry so that theword of God spreads.
So you guys don't have to worryabout this stuff and you can be
about your ministry there inArizona and helping influence
(18:19):
people across the whole churchbody.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Love that.
Thank you, Jim.
Tell us more specifically whatCPS is doing to encourage church
worker wellness.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Yeah.
So you know you as members ofthe plane, you see a lot of the
programs that we have in place.
You know we have robust sets ofhealth and wellness tools.
We have things we call pointsolutions.
You know sort of which isphysical therapy that you can do
.
You know from your own homethose kinds of things.
You know from your own homethose kinds of things.
Some of the more interestingthings that sometimes looks a
little bit like, you know, arethey really spending money on
(18:50):
the right things.
It's something like vitalitythat tries to give some
incentives to you to try to getindividuals to take a look at
this, to get engaged, to startdoing those things.
There's a measurable differencenot a small measurable
difference either between thosewho participate in the vitality
(19:11):
and those who don't in terms ofhealthcare claims.
We have our financial educators, we have our health and
wellness educators, we havewebinars all trying to get you
to get involved.
One of the real exciting thingsthat we're going to be rolling
out or we started talking todistrict presidents about this
is we're going to be rolling outdistrict health strategies.
We presented some samples rightnow of some district scorecards
.
We'll be able to start workingin some financial incentives and
(19:34):
the idea being to try to getsome of that encouragement out
of St Louis right, because youcan only push so hard from St
Louis If we can bring that localand connect a little bit more.
Okay, here's the behaviors ofthe workers in our district and
here's what it's doing to ourcost in the district and how do
we help bring that a little bitmore local.
(19:55):
We're also excited that thiswork is going on in partnership
with Tiffany Maynard and othersin the Office of National
Mission.
So've got a great partnershipwithin the church and I think
these district health strategiesare really going to help us.
You know kind of blow this upin a good way, you know going
(20:15):
forward in terms of making someof the incentives real.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
I love it.
So shout out to Mike Gibson andthe PSD let's go, mike.
Let's make the PSD healthyagain.
Speaker 4 (20:26):
Let's let's mow this thing up.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
man, I'm all in, I'm all in.
Anyway, we'll have to work onthe branding of what that looks
like for us.
But yeah, I mean the health andwellness and all honestly
because of Robert Kennedy andthe work of the Make America
Healthy Again.
I think health consciousness isbecoming more of a thing today
and as Christians, we should beat the table, at the very least,
(20:53):
our trumpeting.
This body is a gift of the HolySpirit.
We're fearfully and wonderfullymade and we're so complex the
way our brains work and governour gut I mean I just get, I'm
not going to go, I'm going toresist going here, but geeking
out in terms of what we can do,strategies that we can do to be
(21:14):
more well, like getting enoughwalking, sunlight it's
unbelievable moving our bodies,obviously like just working on
the basics.
So I'll just bring this like if, if your morning rhythms are
tight, meaning you're gettingadequate water because you've
not had water for hopefullyseven, eight hours or so while
(21:35):
you've slept and you're movingyour body and you're getting
sunlight, if you just do likethose three things early in the
morning, your immune functionskyrockets.
It skyrockets.
All the research is showing itright now.
So we should have ambassadorslike CPS that are promoting
these very simple things and Ilove vitality and incentivizing
(21:57):
it for those who need the carroton the stick, kind of waving
out front hey, let's give it ago right.
We should be incentivizing it,rewarding it appropriately.
Anything more to say?
But the devil loves to fightagainst the simple invitations
of a life filled with rhythms ofrest to work and rhythms of
soul care, self-care, so that wecan pour out to other people.
(22:19):
I don't know that we talk aboutit enough in the church and
that's why I was pumped to getyou on, because it needs to be
more of a normal.
It's not because we'reLutherans, it's not going to be
filled with guilt or shame orany of those types of things.
It's just like take your rightnext step to be well.
But man, satan loves to crippleus into a scarcity mentality.
I can't.
I'm getting old, blah, blah,blah Like no man.
(22:39):
Let's go While you have air inyour lungs, move your body, get
your water, get your sunlight,and off we go into a day of
ministry.
So anything more to say there,jim?
Speaker 3 (22:56):
Yeah, you know, I think there's only going to be
so much that we can do, you know, from the health plan
perspective, because it reallyends up being sort of an
instrument of the law.
But you don't really change theheart and it just seems, as
Lutheran Christians, as we comeat this understanding who we are
, whose image we're created, inthe gift of stewardship of self,
we're coming into a differentmotivation that really comes, I
(23:16):
think, as an extension of ourfaith and our beliefs and who we
are, not because, oh, ConcordiaPlains is going to ding me or
I'm going to get slapped on thehand or something like that.
Right, it can and should reallybe led by our theology of the
stewardship of self.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
Luther talked about.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
the reason to discipline the body is so that
we can be more effective atserving our neighbors.
Right, yeah, ultimately notabout self-preservation.
It's about how we serve thecommunity and if we're healthy
and we discipline ourselves andthat's really the reason why we
do it that it becomes anothers-oriented thing.
We care for ourselves to carefor others.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Yep, yep, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
As we end, I want to talk about your future here.
The last little bit of our time, sure, but what is your number
one prayer as you lead CPS andyou look at all the church
workers out?
What is your just heart cry?
Prayer for every single churchworker, jim, from your seat,
yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
So a couple different things there as I contemplated
this question is I think myprayer would be that Lutheran
lay leaders begin to rise up andunderstand their obligation in
(24:35):
creating that culture of carefor their workers and setting
expectations that it isn't justhey, pastor, it's okay for you
to go work out, but no, we'rerequiring it right.
We need you to do this.
You know my good friend,reverend Dr Greg Walton, right
(24:57):
with Grace Place.
You know former Florida Georgiadistrict president.
Every time I see him he'ssaying this I want to make sure
I'm not like, hey, greg, ifyou're listening to this, I'm
not stealing your idea becauseyou're passionate about this.
You know you'll say, jim, we'vegot to get to the lay people,
we've got to get them right inencouraging, because I even
(25:17):
think there that can be wherewe're coming at it from the
gospel, not saying, hey, pastor,you know you need to go out and
start doing these things, but,lay leaders, what's the role
that you can do to help lift upand support and care for workers
?
So my prayer would be that atall of our ministries we have
that culture of care, thatcommunity holding up the
(25:38):
prophet's hands.
Right Now I'm stealing fromBruce Harton.
He knows what I do here.
I take from others, holding upthe prophet's hands and caring
for our workers, that each oneof those workers would be in
that kind of community.
And then I think to themindividually and this has been
really on my mind a lot in thelast year since I published my
(26:00):
book Joshua 1.9,.
Be strong, be courageous forthe Lord.
Your God is with you, and thatwould be then my prayer for the
workers themselves right is thatthey're strong and courageous
as you all go forward in yourministry, knowing God is with
you.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
Let's pause for a second on your first point.
I love Joshua 1.9 for sure, sonothing to take away from that.
That is our cry.
But I lament that there couldbe congregations where maybe
it's elders or board or just theeveryday labor, that they would
(26:37):
look at their pastor like ahired gun, that you can kind of
think of him like a stallion,like he's a.
He's a stallion Right and we'regoing to ride.
We're going to ride him untilhe, until he breaks Right and
and that's not helpful Likewe're, I'm so grateful to be in
a place where worker wellness isencouraged, that day offs are
(27:02):
respected, that there's goodboundaries.
There's why and I'm actually Ihave a sabbatical this summer
but I'm I have a meetingtomorrow working on a holistic
church worker renewal strategywith a group of lay lay folks.
So October isn't just likepastor, it's all church worker
(27:26):
appreciation and we can getstrategic at different times of
the year where we recognize ourstaff and then even set up a
rhythm Jack, this is you and Ihaven't even had this
conversation but then set up arhythm with, for us, summer kind
of shut down.
I think there should be acertain percentage of our staff
that are cycling through atleast a month to a two-month
(27:49):
sabbatical type thing in themonths of June and July here.
So what does that kind?
Speaker 2 (27:55):
of look like yeah, I'm sure you'd definitely be in.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Okay, the last shall be first, jack, yeah, I think
you're going to be last in thatline.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
Anyway, no, I'm just kidding, you're out of time.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Take July and August, because that's when you want to
go to Kirkston, guys, yeahexactly, but anyway, I'm just
grateful to be in a place wherewe do have a culture, where
those that work teachers,administrators, pastors leaders,
central operation executivedirectors at work, teachers,
administrators, pastors leaders,central operation executive
directors we're encouraged totake rest, and I hope that's
true in all of our congregations.
(28:28):
Let's talk about you as we'recoming down the homestretch.
What is God doing?
Just get us behind the curtainsof Jim Sam's life right now.
What's God doing to mess withyou in a good way as a leader.
Speaker 3 (28:43):
What's he teaching you right now, jim?
How are you being stretched inthis season?
So you know, as I, you know, Iknow you know your listeners may
not know that I've announced myretirement at the end of 2026.
And it's been things.
I've been in conversation withmy board for a while and it's
just, you know, a great sort ofweight is lifted once you can
start talking about it and, andyou know, get it out in the out
(29:04):
in public.
I think the way God is messingwith me right now is is in this
way of really having me thinkabout.
You know, do I really believethose things that we say in our
theology?
Now, I know that's dangerous andteaming up to a pastor, but I
(29:25):
think about this ride that I'vebeen on and this wonderful
journey of serving ConcordiaPlan Services, you know, for 26
years.
The CO is 17 years, and I thinkour theology says that God
planned for all time for me toserve in this role in this time
in this place, for these reasons, and I can't get my head around
(29:48):
that.
I can talk about it in a blackand white way, but I just can't
believe that the all-knowing,all-powerful creator of the
universe chose for me to lead inthis time and have the
experiences and gain thefriendships and serve.
It's overwhelming that he wouldreach down and take this goofy
(30:11):
kid from Minnesota by the way, Iknow Crookston Cold and prepare
me to serve in this role inthis time, in this place.
It's overwhelming.
I cannot get my head aroundthat.
It has been such a privilegeand I look forward to you know
(30:31):
the additional time I have.
I'm not done, but it's anoverwhelming thought.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
You know, the posture of gratitude is one of the best
things we can do for ourselvesheart, body, mind, spirit and
that's why I mean that's one ofthe reasons I really respect you
so much is you are, you exudegratitude in everything you do.
You try to find the best inpeople and you recognize there's
(30:59):
.
I mean you may have a pridefulbone in your body, I don't know
it.
All I've experienced is thehumility of Jesus, your
approachable, kind, and out ofthat humility you look at life
not as kind of a burden, butit's a beautiful blessing.
It's a divine adventure tofollow the God who calls you up
and out into a life of serviceto other people.
(31:20):
That is, at the end of the day,like that's it, like the
kingdom of heaven has come toyou in the person and work of
Jesus and he's infused your lifewith meaning and all you have
to do, like, what did you do toearn it?
Like Jack, and we did Jacksquat.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
We did Jack squat to get anything worth, anything
right.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
What we deserve is sin, death and the devil, and
the wages of sin is death andseparation from the promises of
God.
And yet the kingdom is brokeninto the present, and all we do
is say thank you, thank you, god, man.
And so, yeah, thanks formirroring that posture of
humility.
If you get into, let's talk,even transition, though.
So you've got a couple years, alittle less than a couple years
(32:02):
, left.
How are you strategizing totransition?
Because every leader is intransition.
I don't care if you've beenthere a year or 20, 30 years,
like.
We're all in transition.
There's going to be a next, anext up, right?
So how are you doing totransition?
Speaker 3 (32:15):
Well, at CPS, jim you know, I think it really begins
with the good, honest, openconversation with the board at a
point where I'm seeing, okay,you know, we've got to start
looking at a date and becauseI've been CEO for so long, it
can be easy for the board to say, okay, jim's going to be there,
jim's going to be there and Ican start to paint a picture,
(32:36):
you know, of wait a minute,there's going to be a point here
and I'll say from my standpointit's seen that I've got a great
team, we've got a great board,we've leaned in and solved some
of these things in terms ofgetting the retirement plan.
You know, back on that tracklike we've talked about, and say
(32:56):
this is a good season, then youknow to say, someone's up next,
there's a lot of things that Ihaven't been able to accomplish.
There's a lot of things that Ihaven't been able to accomplish,
and so what it means is eitherGod doesn't want them
accomplished or someone otherthan Jim has to get it done,
because Jim wasn't able to getit done.
So it's just time.
And now the board needs to lookand say, okay, we have to work
through a process and we want itto be a good and orderly
(33:18):
process and so, again, we justmet the last two days.
This is a topic where thegovernance committee trying to
work through that project planof okay, you know, we're going
to bring in a search firm thatdoes work through the synodical
process right, we're notcircumventing, but the work with
the process and then you startto go through that cadence of
okay, you have to have theconcurrence with the synodical
(33:39):
presence.
So being an open conversationwith President Harrison,
secretary Sias, from the process, making sure that all those
steps are being handled.
And we're talking about itearly in the process, not late
in the process, so everybodyunderstands.
When would potential interviewsgo on?
When would then a decision bemade?
And the board has expressed itsdesire for a one-year overlay.
(34:00):
So really that means they needto, you know, be getting their
decision here by the end of 2025, which now says, well, wait a
minute.
That isn't necessarily a lot oftime as you look at potentially
a six-month process right tofind, you know, an executive
leader.
And once all this stuff comesout, you know there's no secret.
(34:23):
So I wanted to get thatstatement out there just so
people heard it from me right upfront.
It was early in the process.
It seems like a long timeperiod, but not when you kind of
put the one year for thatoverlap that the board would
like to have and you look at thelength of a good prudent
process.
The length of a good prudentprocess, you know, it kind of
(34:45):
worked itself into sort of thatalmost two-year time period.
And so now a lot of what I'mdoing is just, you know, helping
my team to be prepared for, youknow, jim not being here,
(35:07):
hopefully communicating to youall, you know, the stakeholder
community, that this board istaking the search very, very
seriously.
They, you know, want to makesure that you know, by God's
grace and his direction and hiswisdom, that they, you know,
find a person that he's alreadyidentified, who's going to be a
leader.
He knows who the next leader is.
It's their process ofdiscerning his will and all
those things going through in agood way.
And so again, for you all asstakeholders, as members of the
(35:30):
plans, to understand that thisboard is taking that very
seriously and has a verythoughtful, engaging process.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
Well, praying for the process and for that right next
leader, working side by sidewith you for a year.
I think that's organizationallywise, especially in a complex
ministry like CPS.
I think that's very, very goodand you'll be a wonderful mentor
for he or she.
Does it have to be a guy, orcould it be a gal?
I don't even know what theother rules around.
(36:01):
Does it have to be a male?
So?
Speaker 3 (36:04):
there's rules, but let's talk about what the rule
is yeah.
The rule is that my physicianmust be a member of good
standing of an LCMS congregation.
Uh, so there's no male, male,female, uh, you know.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
Yeah, great.
Um, yeah, I'll be.
I'll be praying about who, whothat is and whether there are.
I'm sure a lot of people willbe kind of curious.
Is it someone that?
Speaker 4 (36:29):
you've raised up.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
This is leadership podcast raised up from internal,
or is it someone that comes inoutside?
That's beyond, beyond me, butpraying for the board as you go
on that discernment, discernmentjourney.
Last question what are you mostlooking forward to, jim, in
your next season of of life andleadership for the church?
Speaker 3 (36:43):
So for life.
We are blessed with fourincredibly beautiful.
I can share pictures, if y'alllike grandchildren and I am
looking forward to just havingspace to go fishing and just be
there for them to do carpoolpickup and, you know, be engaged
(37:05):
in their life.
We're blessed that.
You know my wife watches, youknow, all four of them at
different times.
Oldest is in first grade, youknow, so he's not at the house
as regular, but to be reallyengaged in their lives is
something important to my wifeand I.
To be really engaged in theirlives is something important to
my wife and I.
(37:25):
I'm trying to seek, you know,guidance.
What does God want me to do?
How can I continue to serve?
I'm not done.
I'm retiring, but I'm not doneserving.
I just don't know what he'slooking for.
I want well, I don't want tolimit what God's going to say to
(37:45):
me, but but I I'm hoping thatit's going to be more direct
with people.
You know, working at a highlevel.
Sometimes you're detached frompeople, which is why I'm so
excited, you know, when I get tomeetings with members and that
that that just you know, connect.
You know I'm I'm involved in mychurch, doing my new member
class, you know, teaching someBible studies, and I really
(38:08):
enjoy connecting with people whoare at a very different, you
know, spot in the journey.
I'm lifelong, you know Lutheranright, you know born and raised
and all that, and it's justhumbling and I learn so much
from people who you know they'rewalking and they don't know
anything.
You know they don't know Jesus,let alone Luther.
And in the new member class Ihave an opportunity to kind of
(38:30):
come in beside them and just seedifferent stages of life.
I mean, you guys know, so yousee this regularly and so you
know it could be that there'sgoing to be some opportunities
to do some more service there,local congregation or whatever.
Or you know, what can I do froma leadership standpoint?
I do get calls here and therefrom different people wanting to
(38:52):
talk and, you know, maybethere's some coaching, mentoring
.
You know relationships, youknow I'd like to think that I've
learned some things and willthere be time for me to?
You know, pass them on somehow.
So you know, pass them onsomehow.
So, um, you know, pray for me,pray for the discernment, uh,
you know me and you, you think,you know, are there
(39:13):
opportunities for me to usethose gifts, um, while still
leaving plenty of time for me totake the grandkids fishing,
amen.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
Well, this has been fun, jack.
Any closing comments.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
No, I just uh.
This is, uh, an area where I'mjust extremely grateful and
thankful for your leadershipwith this organization and the
proactiveness.
I know it's tough, you know, aswe're walking through a higher
contribution rate for retirement, but I'm so, so thankful that
the leadership at CPS is beingproactive on this issue and
(39:39):
making sure that church workersaren't being left in the lurch.
You know, and you know, it'spay now or pay later, and this
is one of those abilities whereyou get to pay earlier and
mitigate any of the concernsfrom forecasts and all that kind
of stuff.
So I totally get where you'recoming from.
I'm so happy about yourconcerns about church worker
(40:01):
health.
You know, building the benchand keeping the bench in place
Right, that's really what itboils down to and I love this,
this idea that you have with theconnecting with the district.
So I look forward to seeingthat unfolding.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
Amen.
Yes, it's an awesome privilegeto call you a friend and partner
in the gospel Jim.
If people want to connect withyou and CPS, how can they do so?
Want to connect?
Speaker 3 (40:22):
with you and CPS.
How can they do so?
Yeah, jimsamft atconcordiaplansorg is the best
way to still get me until thatretirement date at the end of 26
.
So again, jimsamft, s-a-n-f-tat concordiaplansorg.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
And you are so accessible to anyone.
Thank you for modelingaccessibility and modeling that
responsive nature for the restof your team, because you guys
are doing a wonderful work.
So it's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
Jesus loves you so much andlet's focus on moving our bodies
, being well and be grateful forall the respective RSOs in the
(41:00):
Lutheran Church Missouri Synod.
Praise be to Jesus.
Thanks so much, jim.
Wonderful work, jack.
God bless guys.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (41:07):
You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the
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(41:30):
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Thanks for listening and staytuned for next week's episode.
This is Lead Time.
Welcome to Lead Time, timAllman, here with Jack Kauberg.
It's a great day to be alive,jack.
How you doing Loving life, dude.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Doing fantastic, sir.
It's a wonderful day.
Wonderful day, yeah for sure.
Beautiful time in Arizona.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
It is delightful right now, for sure, it's very
cold in other parts of thecountry and my wife since you
bring up cold and different or Ibring it up my wife was just in
Crookston, minnesota, and itwas negative 20 for a high up by
Canada.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
The high was negative 20.
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
That is very, and then she flew down here.
It was like 100 degreesdifferent.
She lands there, it's like 80degrees, like on the other side
of the world that's like a shockto the system.
Right it is.
It is a shock, but it's a shockto the system, right it is.
It is a shock, but a good shock.
Coming back here, we love beinghere minus about three, four
months out of the year.
So today we get to hang out withthe president CEO of Concordia
(00:55):
Plan Services.
His name is Jim Sanf and overtime Jim has become a good
friend and partner in the gospel.
I pray for you and appreciateeverything that CPS does for us
in the Lutheran Church MissouriSynod.
It's a unique organization.
I just love hanging out withyou, jim.
You have a great disposition,you're fun to hang out with.
(01:20):
The joy of Jesus is on you.
You're a churchman and you havegifts Just as why I like
hanging out with you too, jack.
You have gifts that the body ofChrist definitely needs as an
actuary and a numbers guy allthat kind of stuff.
You're just awesome, jim.
So how are you doing, buddy?
Thanks for hanging out with us.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
I'm doing fine.
Thanks so much.
Your eyes are very gracious.
I am just humbled to be able toserve God, his church, his
people in this capacity.
It's just a real pleasure.
Real pleasure to serve.
So thank you for the kind words.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Oh for sure, From the heart for sure.
So let's get into what's mostcurrent.
You sent me an email just today.
Front page of the Wall StreetJournal there was an article on
church worker retirement plans.
You said it was not all thatpositive.
So let's just start withnormally.
We start with good stuff.
Let's start with some harderstuff, though.
Jim.
Tell us about the article.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Well, yeah, you know, and actually I don't think it
is bad stuff you know, when youget to the headline and you go
through it and see what's thesubstance in the article,
there's a story there that needsto be told.
And then I think it's justreally important that we
understand sort of that compareand contrast, so what's going on
in the story versus what'sgoing on in our world.
And so I thought, with thetimeliness of this podcast, it
(02:33):
might be something we want to,you know, want to lean into.
So you can see sort of the toneof it right in the headline
church retirement plan sidestepfederal oversight and employees
pay the price.
So that's a pretty captivatingheadline.
And you know, the Concordiaretirement plan is a church plan
under federal law and we canget geeky in a lot of the
(02:54):
details.
I'm an actuary, not an attorney,but we can get into a lot of
the different regulatoryenvironment.
But it's important tounderstand that our church
claims do operate in a differentlegal regulatory space.
It's important to understandthat our church claims do
operate in a different legalregulatory space.
You know we are a multipleemployer denominational benefit
program under the governance ofthe Lutheran Church Missouri
Synod.
When you go through this storyand what I'd say is there have
(03:19):
been some bad actors and badcases in this regulatory space.
They tend to be predominantly asingle employer and
specifically Catholic hospitalsystems, and at the core of it
is they're trying to run abusiness, they're trying to run
a hospital rather than manage aretirement program.
And so when you look at thisbody of legislation as put in
(03:42):
the 1970s, you know, you knowCongress saw that there are
those you know in the corporatesector who weren't paying enough
attention to their retirementprograms and said you know, we
need to put some boundaries inhere and some guardrails.
And so they enacted a Risk andEmployment Retirement Income
Security Act of 1974, and thatgoverns most.
(04:05):
You know, pension plans in theUnited States.
There's plenty of entitiesthough that are exempt state.
You know municipal plans andyou know, and so on.
You know regulation is aninteresting thing, you know.
Once the regulations start,then they start to get into the
operations and tell acorporation how they need to
(04:26):
operate their retirement plan.
This is not our primary sort ofdefense, but ultimately you do
get to a bit of a separation interms of perhaps a requirement
from the government to conductour business a certain way way
and we have the opportunity inthe First Amendment to say no,
(04:46):
we're going to operate it theway we feel that it's
appropriate for us to run and tostructure it.
We don't have a central HRdepartment, for example.
But that's not really theprimary argument.
The primary argument is thatchurch plans were existing in
some cases for centuries andwe've been running them well
these multiple employerdenominational benefit plans In
the case of our plan.
And we've been running themwell these multiple employer
denominational benefit plans Inthe case of our plan.
(05:08):
And you know we work closelywith our counterparts in other
denominations.
There's a separate ConcordiaPlan Services Board who are also
trustees of the ConcordiaRetirement Plan.
We just came off two days ofmeetings with them.
This is their sole focus is toact as trustees on your behalf,
guarding the integrity of thetrust.
(05:28):
They're not trying to operate ahospital or any other such type
of business.
This is what they focus on.
You know, I think in one of myrecent conversations with you,
you know we talked about thatrate increase right that was
coming into the Concordiaretirement plan 1% a year for
the next three years.
(05:49):
I'm going to submit to you thatI think that rate increase is
not evidence that there's aproblem.
That rate increase is actuallyevidence that it's working right
.
We don't have a currentemergency.
We see probabilities ofproblems down the road and so
the board says you know, we needto bring more cash into the
plan now.
That is evidence of them doingtheir due diligence work right.
(06:12):
It's not evidence of a problemin a plan.
So, as you look at these storiesthat are in the Wall Street
Journal, they're real stories.
Real people got hurt.
There's tragedies here.
Right, there is more than justa grain of truth in Theo
Francis' article.
It's just, you know, they onlytold part of the story, right?
(06:32):
So in our case, what we reallytry to differentiate when I'm on
Capitol Hill or other placesand I'll go back to you know he
interviewed me, but it was afterhe had submitted his draft and
gave it to the editors, and youknow I really worked with him to
talk about and understand thedifference between the single
employer and the multipleemployer.
(06:53):
Virtually all of thesesituations are in that single
employer space where they tookthe eye off the ball, and we're
just frankly not doing that.
I want to talk abouttransparency.
Senate Board of Directorsappoints our board 100%.
They put experts onto our board.
Chief Financial Officer ofSenate sits on the board.
He sees every one of thesereports and he's got the
(07:13):
bandwidth to understand, absorb.
He knows exactly what he'sreading.
President Harrison has hisrepresentative on board.
Reverend Dr Roger Pavla.
Harrison has his representativeon board.
Reverend Dr Roger Pavla, youknow a second career guy.
You know, former hospitaladministrator, brilliant
business side, still greattheologian heart for the church.
You know these guys aren'tcoming in giving a pass.
(07:35):
They understand very clearlywhat's at stake.
Financials are, you know, fullydisclosed.
You all can get copies of ouraudit financial statements.
So there's daylight everywherein this whole thing, plus our
process review, outside expertstaking a look at this thing.
The process, process, process.
(07:56):
This thing is locked up tightand so it's just very different
than the facts and circumstancesin the cases that you saw there
.
I'm going to say, with oneexception, they do bring up in
the article sort of a real-timecase and that's the African
Methodist Episcopalian Church,which, I'm going to say, maybe a
year, year and a half ago, sothey announced that they had a
(08:17):
significant issue.
This is still beinginvestigated, but there is a
likelihood that there's criminalactivity, you know.
So you can't regulate awaycriminal activity right.
So they broke laws.
They would have brokeregulations.
So you know that's going to runits course.
But I think what's reallyinteresting is the AME church
stood up and said you know we'regoing to stand by these
(08:40):
retirees and these members andmake them whole and they're
working hard to do that as bestthey can.
There are some who were involvedthat there is litigation going
on there where they're lookingto secure, you know, funds to
help with that promise.
And then Westpath, which is theretirement benefit provider,
sort of our comparableorganization with the United
(09:02):
Methodist Church, they'restepping in to help create
retirement solutions on a goingforward basis.
Obviously they can't bringfunding in to restore the past,
but they are stepping upalongside another Methodist
denomination and the pointreally here is their church is
stepping up to own the issue,which is also very different
than what you see going on inthose single employer cases.
(09:23):
So you know my real key here isyou read the story,
differentiate those singleemployer versus our multiple
employer denominational plansand then please understand the
great due diligence andgovernance that goes on to you
as Concordia Retirement Planmembers and to those you work
with, that you know we'rededicated to that process and
(09:44):
bringing the professionalisminvestment experts, actuaries,
finance attorneys you know, andI guess I could put it this way,
none of you can do that on yourown, but together we can do
that right and bring in thatgroup of experts to manage it,
which brings you back again towhat an honor and privilege it
(10:05):
is to you know steward theseresources of the church on
behalf of our, so many of ourchurch workers.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Amen, thank you.
Hey, was CPS actually mentionedin the article?
No, no, we're not in thearticle and the way that the
reporter came to me is.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
you know I mentioned our work with other
denominations, specifically theChurch Alliance, 34 different
organizations like ConcordiaPlanned Services.
I have the honor of serving aschair of the Church Alliance,
and so my interview with TheoFrancis from the Wall Street
Journal was in my role as chairof the Church Alliance, not in
(10:46):
my role as CEO of ConcordiaPlain Services.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Was there Church Alliance plans listed in that
article that went out with theWall Street Journal?
No, no, no, that's interesting.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
All of the difficult situations are those single
employer which they would not beeligible to be part of the
church alliance, the AME.
They would be eligible to be inbut they are not a member of
the church alliance.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
All right, well, just real quick Tim.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
I just want to share how thankful I am that we have
an organization like ConcordiaPlanned Services instead of
thousands of LCMS churchestrying to figure this out on
their own, and just imagine themess and the inconsistency.
And, like you said, theproblems are with these single
employer entities.
Right, trying to figure out howto create a retirement plan,
(11:38):
that is a tall order for a verysmall entity to try and figure
out.
And you know, other than doinglike a 401k, I don't know how
they would get their headwrapped around doing something
like that.
That that is right.
That is quite an ordeal, wow.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Yeah, and you know you can buy a you know retail
401k or savings vehicle, but thefees are going to be so
exorbitant because you have noleverage.
You know, as we take our youknow investments out there in
the marketplace, we have $5billion plus of assets under
management.
That means we can go in andnegotiate like you can't do
(12:16):
individually too.
So just because you can get aproduct, it's just nowhere near
the kinds of things we can dowalking together, which maybe,
tim, I'm going to use that as asegue in what we wanted to talk
about originally you know, isthat church worker wellness I,
you know think is a place wherewe can say you know, we can
(12:36):
really demonstrate that value ofwalking together and the value
here in this whole area ofchurch worker wellness.
So I don't think.
I'm as the guest supposed to dothat but, I, think.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
I just handed the host the segue.
Yeah, yeah, that was a goodsegue.
Well done.
No, before we do go fully there, I you know people may have
certain perceptions of mebecause of the struggles we have
around church worker formationand we're in a long conversation
in the same direction there, ina long conversation in the same
(13:06):
direction there, and I valuehighly the strategic national
alliances such as LCEF, cps, thefoundation I'm sure I could go
down a list of other kind ofnational RSO groups that help us
just work better togethernationally.
That there's no way.
And, jack, you and I talk scalean awful lot, like you have
(13:28):
leveraged because of the breadthof the workers that you care
for, the power of scale and it'sbenefiting the entire body.
So, yeah, let's work through alot of our you know all this
kind of stuff, but let's do itin a way that's going to keep
the resources and the primaryresource being people, the asset
(13:48):
being people, who are in all ofour schools and all of our
churches, being cared forthrough ministries like CPS.
So I'm a strong fan, brother, sogood.
So let's get into church workerwellness.
Why does CPS care about churchworker wellness at all?
Break that down for us, jim,because I see a lot of great
things, a lot of greatapproaches, incentives, et
cetera coming through CPS towardchurch worker wellness.
(14:09):
Talk a little bit there fromyour heart.
Well, you know.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
I think you know.
Let's just go right to oursynod constitution.
One of our objectives forforming a synod, one of the
reasons we come togetherspecifically Objective 10, is to
care for church workers.
Speaker 4 (14:23):
So wherever that?
Speaker 3 (14:24):
got put into place, it was recognized that scale
does matter, that we can bebetter together.
It is one of those objectivesand I like to share with my
friends.
You know, dave Fiedler withBart Day they don't get an
objective of synod, but I've gotan objective of synod with
Bertie Plank.
That's all men in jest.
I love those guys and they'redoing great work.
But there we are.
We're in there as an objective,but that's not really, I think,
(14:47):
where the core power is in thisright.
It really is in that power ofaggregation and the things that
we can accomplish where we'rebringing tens of thousands of
people together and can dothings a little bit differently.
Right, we're running this allthrough self-insured trusts.
We're not bringing in thebureaucracy of the insurance
(15:07):
company Now we use them to doadministrative work for us, but
we're really insuring each other.
It really is that churchwalking together and so if we
invest in our church workerhealth and wellness, we are
reducing costs over the longterm.
Insurance companies are reallyonly looking for that short-term
(15:28):
gain because they know thatbusiness turns every few years.
I'm not going to invest in thelong term because the reality is
I'm saving my competitor moneydown the road.
So we will invest in thesethings because we know you guys
are 10, 20, 30, 40, 50-yearcustomers and so if we bend the
(15:48):
curve a little today, we'rereaping that for decades.
And if you look at our historyof rate increases, they are way
lower than market.
Right, we're seeing that thosewho get involved in health and
wellness programs are loweringthe cost.
That means there's more dollarsstaying in ministry, I get this
stuff as expensive You'reprobably writing.
(16:09):
The biggest check you write tois probably the Concordia Plains
services.
But in the self-insured trust,what it means, we're just paying
the claims of church workers,right, you don't have the big
overhead, the bureaucracy, thosekinds of things.
This is the care our workersare demanding.
Let's make sure we take care ofit.
But that investment, then, inhealth and wellness not always
(16:31):
in our DNA it's why we cometogether but it does reduce cost
over the long run.
We can come at it another angletoo.
Corporate America Line willfind out.
You know, if we invest in thehealth of our workers, we see
enhanced productivity, we seeenhanced satisfaction, you see
enhanced morale.
People are healthier, morevibrant.
(16:52):
Right, we can keep top workers.
That's what the secular worlddoes, and to me in a church
setting man.
We should be all over thatright.
We should be leading with ourpeople.
I know that's the last thing Igot to, but it's the most
important right.
Ministry is done by people.
It's done by you guys there inthe trenches and I haven't been
(17:12):
there, but I can see with myfriends.
Ministry is hard, and so whatare those things that we can do
to help you be stronger, moreresilient and oh, by the way, it
does reduce costs in the longrun.
Tim, you talk a lot andunderstand about ministry
formation and that pipeline ofpeople coming in, but you know,
this work and wellness is a wayof keeping you healthier and
(17:34):
keeping you in the game right,so that if we can keep more
people in the game, that's fewerpeople you have to replace.
So this is also this entirerecruitment and retention
strategies that we have workingtogether as a church at large.
And so, yeah, I get excitedabout this, because where else
can an actuary apply all of thismath and all of this stuff to a
(17:58):
group of people that I dearlylove, the ministries I love and
really see great work impactingthe kingdom going forward.
That's what we get a charge outof here caring for workers
serving our ministry so that theword of God spreads.
So you guys don't have to worryabout this stuff and you can be
about your ministry there inArizona and helping influence
(18:19):
people across the whole churchbody.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Love that.
Thank you, Jim.
Tell us more specifically whatCPS is doing to encourage church
worker wellness.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
Yeah.
So you know you as members ofthe plane, you see a lot of the
programs that we have in place.
You know we have robust sets ofhealth and wellness tools.
We have things we call pointsolutions.
You know sort of which isphysical therapy that you can do
.
You know from your own homethose kinds of things.
You know from your own homethose kinds of things.
Some of the more interestingthings that sometimes looks a
little bit like, you know, arethey really spending money on
(18:50):
the right things.
It's something like vitalitythat tries to give some
incentives to you to try to getindividuals to take a look at
this, to get engaged, to startdoing those things.
There's a measurable differencenot a small measurable
difference either between thosewho participate in the vitality
(19:11):
and those who don't in terms ofhealthcare claims.
We have our financial educators, we have our health and
wellness educators, we havewebinars all trying to get you
to get involved.
One of the real exciting thingsthat we're going to be rolling
out or we started talking todistrict presidents about this
is we're going to be rolling outdistrict health strategies.
We presented some samples rightnow of some district scorecards
.
We'll be able to start workingin some financial incentives and
(19:34):
the idea being to try to getsome of that encouragement out
of St Louis right, because youcan only push so hard from St
Louis If we can bring that localand connect a little bit more.
Okay, here's the behaviors ofthe workers in our district and
here's what it's doing to ourcost in the district and how do
we help bring that a little bitmore local.
(19:55):
We're also excited that thiswork is going on in partnership
with Tiffany Maynard and othersin the Office of National
Mission.
So've got a great partnershipwithin the church and I think
these district health strategiesare really going to help us.
You know kind of blow this upin a good way, you know going
(20:15):
forward in terms of making someof the incentives real.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
I love it.
So shout out to Mike Gibson andthe PSD let's go, mike.
Let's make the PSD healthyagain.
Speaker 4 (20:26):
Let's let's mow this thing up.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
man, I'm all in, I'm all in.
Anyway, we'll have to work onthe branding of what that looks
like for us.
But yeah, I mean the health andwellness and all honestly
because of Robert Kennedy andthe work of the Make America
Healthy Again.
I think health consciousness isbecoming more of a thing today
and as Christians, we should beat the table, at the very least,
(20:53):
our trumpeting.
This body is a gift of the HolySpirit.
We're fearfully and wonderfullymade and we're so complex the
way our brains work and governour gut I mean I just get, I'm
not going to go, I'm going toresist going here, but geeking
out in terms of what we can do,strategies that we can do to be
(21:14):
more well, like getting enoughwalking, sunlight it's
unbelievable moving our bodies,obviously like just working on
the basics.
So I'll just bring this like if, if your morning rhythms are
tight, meaning you're gettingadequate water because you've
not had water for hopefullyseven, eight hours or so while
(21:35):
you've slept and you're movingyour body and you're getting
sunlight, if you just do likethose three things early in the
morning, your immune functionskyrockets.
It skyrockets.
All the research is showing itright now.
So we should have ambassadorslike CPS that are promoting
these very simple things and Ilove vitality and incentivizing
(21:57):
it for those who need the carroton the stick, kind of waving
out front hey, let's give it ago right.
We should be incentivizing it,rewarding it appropriately.
Anything more to say?
But the devil loves to fightagainst the simple invitations
of a life filled with rhythms ofrest to work and rhythms of
soul care, self-care, so that wecan pour out to other people.
(22:19):
I don't know that we talk aboutit enough in the church and
that's why I was pumped to getyou on, because it needs to be
more of a normal.
It's not because we'reLutherans, it's not going to be
filled with guilt or shame orany of those types of things.
It's just like take your rightnext step to be well.
But man, satan loves to crippleus into a scarcity mentality.
I can't.
I'm getting old, blah, blah,blah Like no man.
(22:39):
Let's go While you have air inyour lungs, move your body, get
your water, get your sunlight,and off we go into a day of
ministry.
So anything more to say there,jim?
Speaker 3 (22:56):
Yeah, you know, I think there's only going to be
so much that we can do, you know, from the health plan
perspective, because it reallyends up being sort of an
instrument of the law.
But you don't really change theheart and it just seems, as
Lutheran Christians, as we comeat this understanding who we are
, whose image we're created, inthe gift of stewardship of self,
we're coming into a differentmotivation that really comes, I
(23:16):
think, as an extension of ourfaith and our beliefs and who we
are, not because, oh, ConcordiaPlains is going to ding me or
I'm going to get slapped on thehand or something like that.
Right, it can and should reallybe led by our theology of the
stewardship of self.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
Luther talked about.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
the reason to discipline the body is so that
we can be more effective atserving our neighbors.
Right, yeah, ultimately notabout self-preservation.
It's about how we serve thecommunity and if we're healthy
and we discipline ourselves andthat's really the reason why we
do it that it becomes anothers-oriented thing.
We care for ourselves to carefor others.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Yep, yep, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
As we end, I want to talk about your future here.
The last little bit of our time, sure, but what is your number
one prayer as you lead CPS andyou look at all the church
workers out?
What is your just heart cry?
Prayer for every single churchworker, jim, from your seat,
yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
So a couple different things there as I contemplated
this question is I think myprayer would be that Lutheran
lay leaders begin to rise up andunderstand their obligation in
(24:35):
creating that culture of carefor their workers and setting
expectations that it isn't justhey, pastor, it's okay for you
to go work out, but no, we'rerequiring it right.
We need you to do this.
You know my good friend,reverend Dr Greg Walton, right
(24:57):
with Grace Place.
You know former Florida Georgiadistrict president.
Every time I see him he'ssaying this I want to make sure
I'm not like, hey, greg, ifyou're listening to this, I'm
not stealing your idea becauseyou're passionate about this.
You know you'll say, jim, we'vegot to get to the lay people,
we've got to get them right inencouraging, because I even
(25:17):
think there that can be wherewe're coming at it from the
gospel, not saying, hey, pastor,you know you need to go out and
start doing these things, but,lay leaders, what's the role
that you can do to help lift upand support and care for workers
?
So my prayer would be that atall of our ministries we have
that culture of care, thatcommunity holding up the
(25:38):
prophet's hands.
Right Now I'm stealing fromBruce Harton.
He knows what I do here.
I take from others, holding upthe prophet's hands and caring
for our workers, that each oneof those workers would be in
that kind of community.
And then I think to themindividually and this has been
really on my mind a lot in thelast year since I published my
(26:00):
book Joshua 1.9,.
Be strong, be courageous forthe Lord.
Your God is with you, and thatwould be then my prayer for the
workers themselves right is thatthey're strong and courageous
as you all go forward in yourministry, knowing God is with
you.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
Let's pause for a second on your first point.
I love Joshua 1.9 for sure, sonothing to take away from that.
That is our cry.
But I lament that there couldbe congregations where maybe
it's elders or board or just theeveryday labor, that they would
(26:37):
look at their pastor like ahired gun, that you can kind of
think of him like a stallion,like he's a.
He's a stallion Right and we'regoing to ride.
We're going to ride him untilhe, until he breaks Right and
and that's not helpful Likewe're, I'm so grateful to be in
a place where worker wellness isencouraged, that day offs are
(27:02):
respected, that there's goodboundaries.
There's why and I'm actually Ihave a sabbatical this summer
but I'm I have a meetingtomorrow working on a holistic
church worker renewal strategywith a group of lay lay folks.
So October isn't just likepastor, it's all church worker
(27:26):
appreciation and we can getstrategic at different times of
the year where we recognize ourstaff and then even set up a
rhythm Jack, this is you and Ihaven't even had this
conversation but then set up arhythm with, for us, summer kind
of shut down.
I think there should be acertain percentage of our staff
that are cycling through atleast a month to a two-month
(27:49):
sabbatical type thing in themonths of June and July here.
So what does that kind?
Speaker 2 (27:55):
of look like yeah, I'm sure you'd definitely be in.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Okay, the last shall be first, jack, yeah, I think
you're going to be last in thatline.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
Anyway, no, I'm just kidding, you're out of time.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Take July and August, because that's when you want to
go to Kirkston, guys, yeahexactly, but anyway, I'm just
grateful to be in a place wherewe do have a culture, where
those that work teachers,administrators, pastors leaders,
central operation executivedirectors at work, teachers,
administrators, pastors leaders,central operation executive
directors we're encouraged totake rest, and I hope that's
true in all of our congregations.
(28:28):
Let's talk about you as we'recoming down the homestretch.
What is God doing?
Just get us behind the curtainsof Jim Sam's life right now.
What's God doing to mess withyou in a good way as a leader.
Speaker 3 (28:43):
What's he teaching you right now, jim?
How are you being stretched inthis season?
So you know, as I, you know, Iknow you know your listeners may
not know that I've announced myretirement at the end of 2026.
And it's been things.
I've been in conversation withmy board for a while and it's
just, you know, a great sort ofweight is lifted once you can
start talking about it and, andyou know, get it out in the out
(29:04):
in public.
I think the way God is messingwith me right now is is in this
way of really having me thinkabout.
You know, do I really believethose things that we say in our
theology?
Now, I know that's dangerous andteaming up to a pastor, but I
(29:25):
think about this ride that I'vebeen on and this wonderful
journey of serving ConcordiaPlan Services, you know, for 26
years.
The CO is 17 years, and I thinkour theology says that God
planned for all time for me toserve in this role in this time
in this place, for these reasons, and I can't get my head around
(29:48):
that.
I can talk about it in a blackand white way, but I just can't
believe that the all-knowing,all-powerful creator of the
universe chose for me to lead inthis time and have the
experiences and gain thefriendships and serve.
It's overwhelming that he wouldreach down and take this goofy
(30:11):
kid from Minnesota by the way, Iknow Crookston Cold and prepare
me to serve in this role inthis time, in this place.
It's overwhelming.
I cannot get my head aroundthat.
It has been such a privilegeand I look forward to you know
(30:31):
the additional time I have.
I'm not done, but it's anoverwhelming thought.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
You know, the posture of gratitude is one of the best
things we can do for ourselvesheart, body, mind, spirit and
that's why I mean that's one ofthe reasons I really respect you
so much is you are, you exudegratitude in everything you do.
You try to find the best inpeople and you recognize there's
(30:59):
.
I mean you may have a pridefulbone in your body, I don't know
it.
All I've experienced is thehumility of Jesus, your
approachable, kind, and out ofthat humility you look at life
not as kind of a burden, butit's a beautiful blessing.
It's a divine adventure tofollow the God who calls you up
and out into a life of serviceto other people.
(31:20):
That is, at the end of the day,like that's it, like the
kingdom of heaven has come toyou in the person and work of
Jesus and he's infused your lifewith meaning and all you have
to do, like, what did you do toearn it?
Like Jack, and we did Jacksquat.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
We did Jack squat to get anything worth, anything
right.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
What we deserve is sin, death and the devil, and
the wages of sin is death andseparation from the promises of
God.
And yet the kingdom is brokeninto the present, and all we do
is say thank you, thank you, god, man.
And so, yeah, thanks formirroring that posture of
humility.
If you get into, let's talk,even transition, though.
So you've got a couple years, alittle less than a couple years
(32:02):
, left.
How are you strategizing totransition?
Because every leader is intransition.
I don't care if you've beenthere a year or 20, 30 years,
like.
We're all in transition.
There's going to be a next, anext up, right?
So how are you doing totransition?
Speaker 3 (32:15):
Well, at CPS, jim you know, I think it really begins
with the good, honest, openconversation with the board at a
point where I'm seeing, okay,you know, we've got to start
looking at a date and becauseI've been CEO for so long, it
can be easy for the board to say, okay, jim's going to be there,
jim's going to be there and Ican start to paint a picture,
(32:36):
you know, of wait a minute,there's going to be a point here
and I'll say from my standpointit's seen that I've got a great
team, we've got a great board,we've leaned in and solved some
of these things in terms ofgetting the retirement plan.
You know, back on that tracklike we've talked about, and say
(32:56):
this is a good season, then youknow to say, someone's up next,
there's a lot of things that Ihaven't been able to accomplish.
There's a lot of things that Ihaven't been able to accomplish,
and so what it means is eitherGod doesn't want them
accomplished or someone otherthan Jim has to get it done,
because Jim wasn't able to getit done.
So it's just time.
And now the board needs to lookand say, okay, we have to work
through a process and we want itto be a good and orderly
(33:18):
process and so, again, we justmet the last two days.
This is a topic where thegovernance committee trying to
work through that project planof okay, you know, we're going
to bring in a search firm thatdoes work through the synodical
process right, we're notcircumventing, but the work with
the process and then you startto go through that cadence of
okay, you have to have theconcurrence with the synodical
(33:39):
presence.
So being an open conversationwith President Harrison,
secretary Sias, from the process, making sure that all those
steps are being handled.
And we're talking about itearly in the process, not late
in the process, so everybodyunderstands.
When would potential interviewsgo on?
When would then a decision bemade?
And the board has expressed itsdesire for a one-year overlay.
(34:00):
So really that means they needto, you know, be getting their
decision here by the end of 2025, which now says, well, wait a
minute.
That isn't necessarily a lot oftime as you look at potentially
a six-month process right tofind, you know, an executive
leader.
And once all this stuff comesout, you know there's no secret.
(34:23):
So I wanted to get thatstatement out there just so
people heard it from me right upfront.
It was early in the process.
It seems like a long timeperiod, but not when you kind of
put the one year for thatoverlap that the board would
like to have and you look at thelength of a good prudent
process.
The length of a good prudentprocess, you know, it kind of
(34:45):
worked itself into sort of thatalmost two-year time period.
And so now a lot of what I'mdoing is just, you know, helping
my team to be prepared for, youknow, jim not being here,
(35:07):
hopefully communicating to youall, you know, the stakeholder
community, that this board istaking the search very, very
seriously.
They, you know, want to makesure that you know, by God's
grace and his direction and hiswisdom, that they, you know,
find a person that he's alreadyidentified, who's going to be a
leader.
He knows who the next leader is.
It's their process ofdiscerning his will and all
those things going through in agood way.
And so again, for you all asstakeholders, as members of the
(35:30):
plans, to understand that thisboard is taking that very
seriously and has a verythoughtful, engaging process.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
Well, praying for the process and for that right next
leader, working side by sidewith you for a year.
I think that's organizationallywise, especially in a complex
ministry like CPS.
I think that's very, very goodand you'll be a wonderful mentor
for he or she.
Does it have to be a guy, orcould it be a gal?
I don't even know what theother rules around.
(36:01):
Does it have to be a male?
So?
Speaker 3 (36:04):
there's rules, but let's talk about what the rule
is yeah.
The rule is that my physicianmust be a member of good
standing of an LCMS congregation.
Uh, so there's no male, male,female, uh, you know.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
Yeah, great.
Um, yeah, I'll be.
I'll be praying about who, whothat is and whether there are.
I'm sure a lot of people willbe kind of curious.
Is it someone that?
Speaker 4 (36:29):
you've raised up.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
This is leadership podcast raised up from internal,
or is it someone that comes inoutside?
That's beyond, beyond me, butpraying for the board as you go
on that discernment, discernmentjourney.
Last question what are you mostlooking forward to, jim, in
your next season of of life andleadership for the church?
Speaker 3 (36:43):
So for life.
We are blessed with fourincredibly beautiful.
I can share pictures, if y'alllike grandchildren and I am
looking forward to just havingspace to go fishing and just be
there for them to do carpoolpickup and, you know, be engaged
(37:05):
in their life.
We're blessed that.
You know my wife watches, youknow, all four of them at
different times.
Oldest is in first grade, youknow, so he's not at the house
as regular, but to be reallyengaged in their lives is
something important to my wifeand I.
To be really engaged in theirlives is something important to
my wife and I.
(37:25):
I'm trying to seek, you know,guidance.
What does God want me to do?
How can I continue to serve?
I'm not done.
I'm retiring, but I'm not doneserving.
I just don't know what he'slooking for.
I want well, I don't want tolimit what God's going to say to
(37:45):
me, but but I I'm hoping thatit's going to be more direct
with people.
You know, working at a highlevel.
Sometimes you're detached frompeople, which is why I'm so
excited, you know, when I get tomeetings with members and that
that that just you know, connect.
You know I'm I'm involved in mychurch, doing my new member
class, you know, teaching someBible studies, and I really
(38:08):
enjoy connecting with people whoare at a very different, you
know, spot in the journey.
I'm lifelong, you know Lutheranright, you know born and raised
and all that, and it's justhumbling and I learn so much
from people who you know they'rewalking and they don't know
anything.
You know they don't know Jesus,let alone Luther.
And in the new member class Ihave an opportunity to kind of
(38:30):
come in beside them and just seedifferent stages of life.
I mean, you guys know, so yousee this regularly and so you
know it could be that there'sgoing to be some opportunities
to do some more service there,local congregation or whatever.
Or you know, what can I do froma leadership standpoint?
I do get calls here and therefrom different people wanting to
(38:52):
talk and, you know, maybethere's some coaching, mentoring
.
You know relationships, youknow I'd like to think that I've
learned some things and willthere be time for me to?
You know, pass them on somehow.
So you know, pass them onsomehow.
So, um, you know, pray for me,pray for the discernment, uh,
you know me and you, you think,you know, are there
(39:13):
opportunities for me to usethose gifts, um, while still
leaving plenty of time for me totake the grandkids fishing,
amen.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
Well, this has been fun, jack.
Any closing comments.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
No, I just uh.
This is, uh, an area where I'mjust extremely grateful and
thankful for your leadershipwith this organization and the
proactiveness.
I know it's tough, you know, aswe're walking through a higher
contribution rate for retirement, but I'm so, so thankful that
the leadership at CPS is beingproactive on this issue and
(39:39):
making sure that church workersaren't being left in the lurch.
You know, and you know, it'spay now or pay later, and this
is one of those abilities whereyou get to pay earlier and
mitigate any of the concernsfrom forecasts and all that kind
of stuff.
So I totally get where you'recoming from.
I'm so happy about yourconcerns about church worker
(40:01):
health.
You know, building the benchand keeping the bench in place
Right, that's really what itboils down to and I love this,
this idea that you have with theconnecting with the district.
So I look forward to seeingthat unfolding.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
Amen.
Yes, it's an awesome privilegeto call you a friend and partner
in the gospel Jim.
If people want to connect withyou and CPS, how can they do so?
Want to connect?
Speaker 3 (40:22):
with you and CPS.
How can they do so?
Yeah, jimsamft atconcordiaplansorg is the best
way to still get me until thatretirement date at the end of 26
.
So again, jimsamft, s-a-n-f-tat concordiaplansorg.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
And you are so accessible to anyone.
Thank you for modelingaccessibility and modeling that
responsive nature for the restof your team, because you guys
are doing a wonderful work.
So it's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
Jesus loves you so much andlet's focus on moving our bodies
, being well and be grateful forall the respective RSOs in the
(41:00):
Lutheran Church Missouri Synod.
Praise be to Jesus.
Thanks so much, jim.
Wonderful work, jack.
God bless guys.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (41:07):
You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the
Unite Leadership Collective.
The ULC's mission is tocollaborate with the local
church to discover, develop anddeploy leaders through biblical
Lutheran doctrine and innovativemethods To partner with us in
this gospel message.
Subscribe to our channel, thengo to theuniteleadershiporg to
create your free login forexclusive material and resources
(41:30):
and then to explore ways inwhich you can sponsor an episode
.
Thanks for listening and staytuned for next week's episode.
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