The Wittenberg Project: Mission, Collaboration, and Growth in the LCMS

Tim and Jack welcome Tyree Toney (aka Lex Lutheran) to discuss his transition from a Baptist background to confessional Lutheranism, the Wittenberg Project, and opportunities for growth and enhanced mission within the LCMS.

• Lex shares his journey from a Baptist upbringing through Catholicism and Methodism before finding his home in confessional Lutheranism
• The Wittenberg Project began as an online effort to provide Black Lutheran representation and theological perspective
• Discussion of collaboration opportunities between LCMS congregations rather than operating independently
• Exploring the tension between traditional and contemporary worship while maintaining Lutheran distinctives
• Insights on how Lutheran churches can better welcome people across different cultural backgrounds
• Addressing the challenges of the Lutheran "brand" and whether to emphasize or downplay denominational identity
• The importance of building an online presence for Lutheran theology in a digital-dominant world
• Reflections on congregational growth strategies and learning from innovations in other denominations

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is Lead Time.

Speaker 2 (00:03):
Welcome to Lead Time, tim Allman, here with Jack
Kauberg.
It's a beautiful day to bealive, jack, you feeling all
right?
We've been talking about yourallergies and stuff.
Pray for Jack's allergies.
Jesus answers prayers and hewants Jack's allergies to be
taken care of.
So I know you're headed on atrip as well.
You feeling good?

Speaker 3 (00:21):
I'm going to Antigua in a couple days, where there's
zero allergies.
I'm looking forward to that Ican find that place.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
How do you know that there's zero?
I gotta challenge that, jack II I went online and looked for.

Speaker 3 (00:33):
Well, I have to be fair.
It may be that they're sayingzero allergies is because they
have no means of counting it.
That might be.
That might be true.

Speaker 2 (00:40):
I didn't even know where antigua was.
I'm sure it's a beautiful spot,but down in the where is it
down by?
So right?

Speaker 3 (00:48):
yeah, so if you go to like, like, if you're going out
towards the dominican republic,out towards, you know, east,
towards the caribbean, this islike further east, and so it's
kind of a remote, fairly remoteish island compared to some of
the other islands and it reallyhas a more remote caribbean type
of vibe to it, which I'm reallylooking forward to.
Yeah, so, yeah, happyanniversary 25.

(01:09):
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:10):
Jack and Marta.
Today we get the privilege ofhanging out with a man you may
have seen on YouTube and he wasso gracious.
We were in conversation and say, hey man, let's just come on
and get to know one another andhave a chat.
This is Lex Lutheran.
Lex, how you doing Now.
Lex Lutheran is not truly yourlast name.
Your last name is Tony, right,tyree, tony, but you go by Lex,

(01:30):
is that right?

Speaker 4 (01:31):
Yes, yes, yes, my son's name is Lex actually, so
it's not like a far-fetched name.
I get referred to by my son'sname because kids pretty much
rule the day.
So if you're Stephanie's father, that, oh, they're Stephanie's
dad.
There's this, there's this.
So, yeah, I do go by Lex.
That's how I'm pretty muchknown in most circles.

Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yes, yeah, so Lex is a member at Mountain View
Lutheran Church in Las Vegas,derek Clem, a longtime friend of
mine, and we're going to startout first before we get into
your ministry and kind of theWittenberg Project and all of
that.
Just tell people kind of yourjourney through you know other
means of hearing about Jesus,following Jesus all the way to

(02:11):
confessional Lutheranism here inthe LCMS.
Man, I'm glad Jesus led you onthat journey.
Would you tell that story, lex?

Speaker 4 (02:17):
Oh man, that's a long story so I'll give the cliff
note version.
So there's never been a daythat I didn't grow up knowing
Jesus.
My family is real into thefaith and things of that nature,
but it's more so a Baptistytype lens.
So I grew up with that andthat's fine, you know.
But from there you end upgetting Baptist and you end up

(02:38):
getting dancing Baptist Somepeople call them Pentecostals
and then you get hidden Baptist,what some people call
non-denominational 007s.
So overall it's a Baptist world.
You know what I'm?

Speaker 3 (02:49):
saying Is that why you call them that yeah?

Speaker 4 (02:51):
it's 007s.
You don't care about doctrine.
You ask them to be baptized.
They're like no, no, hold up,hold up, Matter of fact, your
baptism doesn't count, becauseyou were spring, so really well,
no, I mean that's like.
No, that's their doctrine.
I'm not saying they're notbrothers, I mean I'm just
calling a spade a spade.
So, um, from there I went to aCatholic high school.

(03:13):
So, going to a Catholic highschool, I got to do liturgy and
various things and we hadreligion class every year from I
introduced to Methodism andthen, um, this is the fast fast
track, you know what I'm saying.
Yeah, uh, and as an adult Istarted wanting to.
Um, I hate to say, like, knowwhat I believe, I knew what I
believed already.
I wanted to actually read theBible myself and not on some

(03:36):
like.
I have a better interpretation,everybody, but it's a like.
I should be in the word, Ishould be covered in the word
and stay in the word.
So, as that happened, I startedrunning into things where it's

(03:57):
like this doesn't really go withwhat I was hearing, and I
actually ran into my LutheranI'm trying to make that part be
the emphasis in other malarkeystuff.
I had a coworker and he wastelling me how he grew up
Lutheran and, um, he was tellingme how.
He asked me a question.
He knew I was reading johnwesley.
I was reading various thingsabout babies being baptized and
methodists do baptize babies.
But I came with the classicbaptist rebuttals because like,
who were they repenting to?

(04:18):
Were they talking to?
Like, why?
Now, baptism doesn't say thingsof that nature?
That's what what we're taught.
And people realize that that'sliterally the landscape of what
goes on out there.
So I hop online on Twitter.
I started trolling a couple ofLutheran pastors and I ran into
one who likes to engage and weactually started talking and

(04:39):
fellowshipping and basicallythrough those conversations,
through those dialogues, I endedup getting more deeper into
confessional Lutheranism.
And my daughter was attendinganother church in Las Vegas.
Anybody wants to visit MountainViews where I'm at, but there's
Lamb of God.
She was going to school there.
I met with that pastor a coupleof times and one day I went to
two churches.
I went to my Methodist church.

(05:02):
After that service I left, Iwent to the Lutheran service and
I noticed a stark difference.
I wasn't focused on performance.
I wasn't focused on it's up tome to change the world.
I'm not saying we shouldn't beinvolved in the world, don't get
me wrong.
But my focus was on Christcrucified.
When I left there, my eyes werefirmly planted on Christ's

(05:23):
completed work.
For me, it wasn't based on meturning the cross into a ladder.
It wasn't focused on that atall, and it got to the point
where I realized I couldn't, Ihad to, I had no choice.
And lo and behold, lutheran wasadded to the last name.

Speaker 2 (05:37):
So good, man.
I love that story so much.
Jack, you've got a similarstory Now.
My mind was going all right,who's the pastor in the LCMS
that I'm going to take a guess?
I don't know this part of yourstory.
I'm a, and I could be wrong.
Brian Wolf Mueller, Was thatone of the?

Speaker 4 (05:50):
guys.
No, no, no, no.
I know Brian Wolf Mueller,though.
No, he wasn't.
He wasn't a pastor.
So I was interacting withpastors I ended up interacting
with, so I'm I know a lot ofpeople at 1517, but this was
before 1517.
So back in those days, danielHenry Price I was going back and

(06:12):
forth with him, not to mentionalso this is back when Dr Cooper
he just had a podcast he didn'thave visuals yet On his first
audio podcast he actually readthe question that me and a guy
named Dave submitted.
You know what I'm saying.
So this is kind of back then,and interacting with them and,
more so, dialogue back and forthwith the 1517 guys before 1517

(06:34):
came to be led me down this path.

Speaker 2 (06:36):
So good, well, welcome buddy.
I'm so glad the Holy Spirit Ilove your jacket, by the way,
that's pretty For those thataren't watching on YouTube.
We, the luther rose going on.
We got the holy spirit.
Does, yeah, cross here andthere's a cross there.
It is.
Did you make that?
Yeah, do you make that likeoriginal design?

Speaker 4 (06:56):
it looks like, yeah, yeah, so um, I won't be here
self-marketing but um, me and umpastor dylan, dylan campbell
and and the artist Christian hiphop artist, flame.
We have a podcast called theStudy, and so me and Flame
designed these.
So when we're recording, wehave something that symbolizes,
because this is kind of how wedesigned the looping rules or

(07:17):
our scheme.
On it, people change colors andthat's how we came up with this
design.
So Extranose Academy is wherewe can find the study at.

Speaker 2 (07:27):
So cool.

Speaker 3 (07:28):
I've been on there a few times.
You guys do good work.

Speaker 4 (07:30):
Thank you, I appreciate it, thank you.

Speaker 2 (07:33):
All right.
Well, let's get into theWittenberg Project.
You're rolling it, your hopesfor it.
Tell us the origin story of theWittenberg Project, lex.

Speaker 4 (07:40):
The origin of the Windward Project.
So, um, the I think he's thepresident of our district,
gibson, I think his name is.
Yeah, president Mike Gibson,yep, mike Gibson.
He came and spoke in my churcha while ago and he was talking
about something like um,cross-cultural ministries and
this and this.
I have no idea what he wastalking about.
So I raised my hand and said,yo, so what's going on across

(08:00):
cultural ministries?
Like, how are you?
To me it meant reaching out toother cultures, and his response
kind of I'm going to lie kindof annoyed me.
It was well, what do you thinkwe should do that?

Speaker 1 (08:09):
literally was the answer and.

Speaker 4 (08:10):
I'm like I'm not the one with the PowerPoint
presentation talking about it,saying these words Like how,
that's like someone doing apresentation on NASA building a
rocket ship, and I'm like man,how'd you do that?
How do you think we did that,you know?
But beyond that, um, I leftthere and um I was just, I was
already kind of known throughvarious social media aspects and

(08:33):
then I realized for myself that, um, there really was no like
um black Lutherans online in asense for social presence in
general, to the point wheresomeone can get a aspect of
saying that you'll hear allthese, this talk going on, and a
lot of times people like theLCMS, people Wells, and they get
dismissed as, oh, those are thegood old boys, that's why they

(08:53):
feel that way.
No, it's not.
A lot of times people have avalid point.
So, in a sense, on my firstever thing I did on my channel,
it was literally just me talkingabout the ELCA plenary seven,
and that's one of the points Imade is is I'm not a pastor, I'm
just a lay person who lovestheology.
But in the Lutheran traditionwe have people other people than
just you can't just brush off.

(09:14):
You can't just say, ah, thegood old boys.
No, I agree with them.
Let's talk.
So that's how it started.
And from there, um, it justtransp, transpired.
I ended up meeting anotherperson, um anastasius, who, um
helped me a couple videos hewould do, and we just started
putting videos out there,engaging with other people, to
show that there is sure we'renot, as we know, lcms 96 percent

(09:38):
white, but that one percentstrong, you know, saying like I
have something to say.
Even if I am the only 1%, Istill got something to say, you
know.
So, in that regards, that's howit started, and from there it
transformed into actually notjust being something I rant on,
my thoughts and things going onto more so a sense of where I'm
interviewing pastors, I'mtalking about issues and things

(10:00):
of that nature going forward.
So that's how that started.
And then I, more so primarilyfocus on Exxon Oats Academy with
Lane, but my personal one isWittenberg Project.
That's how I kind of do myoperations.

Speaker 2 (10:12):
So good.
I should have asked beforewhat's your husband, father,
vocation?
But then in the marketplace,are you out in the marketplace
at all?
What's that?
I'm in the marketplace baby.
Anybody looking single hey, oh,you're in that market, okay,

(10:32):
okay, uh, what's your, what'syour job?

Speaker 4 (10:33):
lex, you have a job outside of being in that market.
Okay, hey, jim, you're great.
He opened that up.
Sound like that, didn't it?
It sounded like are you in themarketplace?
You're single.
What's your man?
Hey, fun in the sun.
I know arizona.
What's your man?
Hey, fun in the sun.
I know Arizona's crazy man.
I'll come out there, you know.

Speaker 1 (10:52):
I am an accountant.

Speaker 4 (10:54):
So basically I count casinos' monies that they don't
share with people and that'spretty much it.
Man, I'm an accountant.
It's kind of high up, like I'vebeen one for Bellagio one of.
I'm an accountant.
It's pretty kind of high up,like I've been one for Bellagio,
hope of the big ones, but now Iwork for another one.
So that's my actual vocationday to day.
That's cool.

Speaker 3 (11:09):
We got way more in common.
I got involved doing churchwork through finance oh wow.

Speaker 2 (11:15):
Yeah, yeah, that's really funny man.
Yeah, all right, let's get intoLCMS.
So you've been in the LCMS as amember?
Say how many years now.

Speaker 4 (11:26):
Oh man, I would say as an actual member, 10 years.

Speaker 2 (11:29):
Okay.

Speaker 4 (11:30):
But before that I would say I've been invested in
the theology of it for more than13, something like that years
Gosh.

Speaker 2 (11:36):
Okay, Good, Great, Awesome.
That sets good context as youlook at the broader landscape.
I mean we've been very kind ofto the point on a number of
things that we see asopportunities for growth in the
LCMS as we carry the mission andmessage of Jesus out to a dark
and dying world.
As you look at it, how do youcategorize some of our biggest
opportunities for growth trendsthat you think we ought to see

(11:58):
change there?
Lex?

Speaker 4 (12:00):
We briefly talked about this on email when we
first met.
I think that a lot of it.
I think, when it comes toopportunities for growth and I
know a lot of times people focuson growth in a diversity type
people and everybody else likeliterally it's a, it's a gang of
youth out there from allspectrums history that need to

(12:28):
find out that we have the mostaccurate and biblical confession
, and I think that falls more soon the church level.
To be honest, like me,personally, I think that we need
let me backtrack me, comingfrom a more baptist background.
They don't.
Their big thing is beingindependent.
I know you guys know that, buta lot of times other people
don't, like they won't realizethe difference between um setups

(12:49):
and churches, and when I seehow they grow and how they
engage the communities, theydon't have big brother behind
them that they're going to askthe president of their
independent or their 99 or youknow, like baptists are
independent but the sbc is adenomination, pretty much.
But I won't really go there, butthey take it on their self,
where they'll even partner withsome other church to let's do

(13:11):
these events together, just toget the word out about us more
Like you'll see.
Here's an example.
You'll see John Piper andMacArthur do a conference
together.

Speaker 3 (13:20):
They aren't friends, they hate each other Okay so

Speaker 2 (13:24):
you get what I'm saying.
They aren't friends.

Speaker 4 (13:24):
They don't agree on a lot of things.
They hate each other, right,but they don't agree on
everything.
Oh, okay, so you get what I'msaying.
Yep, back off, he doesn't playthat.
You know what I'm saying?
Mm-hmm, but for the sake ofgetting their heterodox theology
out there, they'll cometogether.
I'm sorry, man, I don't throwpunches, I.
That's pretty much why the nameLex is my son's name, but it
took off Lex Luthor.
It is what it is, but they willget together for the sake and

(13:49):
the good of that.
Now, pure doctrine is important.
So I'm not saying we need to gopartner with some Anabaptists.
I'm not saying that at all, butwhat I'm saying in regards to
the local level we have, like mychurch, mountain View, there's
another church like eight to tenmiles away further west.

(14:10):
We don't do things together anda lot of other people in church
I see they don't really.
They all operate as theirselfand it's like we need to pull
the resources we do have on thelocal level and we can't always
look, look what's matthewharrison think, or is daddy
gonna say yes, and actually getout there and do it, put the
ground or my neighborhood beltto.
We need to get out there, youknow, and and be active.
That's, that's the main thing Isee.

Speaker 3 (14:23):
Yeah, it's wow we're in an interesting animal in our
church body, because we are verycongregational, right, yeah,
but the pastors are a little bitmore, a little bit more
hierarchical, let's say, thanyour typical baptist kind of uh
right, collaboration, right, uh,and so it's kind of like we're

(14:43):
two things at the same timeindependent and, right, um,
unionized, unionized, yeah, atthe same time, and sometimes it
gets awkward to realize wherethose boundaries are and where.
You know where, where, where dowe have permission?
And you know where, where?
Should we just assume that wehave authority on stuff?
And sometimes that's a messydance, it is.

Speaker 2 (15:07):
It is.
I mean, if we were now, this isideal world.
We don't live in the idealworld, we live in the real, what
is right now.
But if you say we're starting adenomination and we want to
grow and we want to reach asmany different people as
possible say here in the EastValley, vegas, etc.
Phoenix, right, so you wouldprobably have one brand that had

(15:30):
multiple locations withmultiple preachers.
This is one way you couldstrategize.
And we're getting killed in thenon-to-non multi-site world.
Here we just down the road andthis is not a competitor.
There's, although we areprideful in the appropriate
sense of our confession, ourlutheran confession, but there's
a new competitors.
there we go, that's fine, that'sfine well, they're bringing a

(15:52):
different, a different gospelright.
Um, it's all under the lord weand we can get into the details
there, but we differ in thesacraments primarily right, and
and maybe the way the word works.
But, um, they just launched acampus right down the road from
us Lex Opening day, 2,000 peoplethere, and they'll be
sustaining a new campus andthey're thinking at a scale that

(16:13):
is way beyond us.
My doctorate was in the traitsand characteristics of pastors
who collaborate in mission.
I know that's a mouthful, butthe ultimate hope is basically
what you're saying.
Pastors and churches should worktogether are actually the
infrastructure of the waycircuits are organized.
We're supposed to becollaborating but I did research
across the synod this was aboutseven, eight years ago and it

(16:34):
was looking for stories ofcollaboration, even building
towards scale and kind of sharedministry to reach people in all
different rural to suburban andurban places and found few to
none, no stories aroundstrategic circuits getting
together for forums,convocations, doing their thing,
encouraging on new starts, allthat kind of stuff.
It doesn't happen.

(16:55):
And my basic, the end of it,was the circuit visitor training
has not been appropriatelymissionally oriented toward
coming together, unifying aroundour common confession and maybe
even strategizing.
And you could do this withmultiple brands, multiple types
of churches, saying, hey, we'reall going to come and share

(17:15):
these operations, we're going tobuild some scale, like we have
so many different churches.
There's some large churches herein the East Valley, but we're
not functionally partneringtogether towards scale.
Now, I guess I could challengethat to a degree, because we've
got Concordia plans and a numberof us serving and we have this
kind of wider umbrella ofservices RSOs and synod and

(17:35):
there's a lot of benefit tothose as well.
But when the rubber hits theroad, based on circuits and
congregations, pastors workingtogether you're exactly right.
We're supposed to becongregational and collaborative
.
But there's a competitiveelement, even within churches in
the LCMS and it hurts ourmission.
So that's fascinating.

Speaker 3 (17:54):
Let me add to the critique a little bit here,
because in my experience thestrong, tight LCMS identity
means that we tend to when wetalk, we're talking to ourselves
and we're not necessarilycollaborating outside of
ourselves, which means a lot oftimes we're missing some of the
innovation that's happeningoutside of our context, like.
One of the things I can sayabout the non-denom churches is

(18:16):
they've mastered scale, they'vemastered operations, they've
mastered marketing, they figuredout how to engage with large
peoples and do things much moreefficiently than we do, and
there's opportunities for us tolearn from that, while also
maintaining the same theologythat we have in place.
I'm not advocating aboutanything, about getting rid of
our liturgy or our theology, butyou can learn a lot of

(18:39):
practical things by crossingthat denominational barrier.
I'm going in a couple of weeksto a conference with a bunch of
they call it executive pastors,but it's basically the same job
description I have as executivedirector and I'm going there and
I'll be the only Lutheranrepresented there and I'm
learning about staffing and HRand, again, marketing and how do

(19:00):
you scale multi-site, and theseare all things that have been
mastered outside of our contextbecause these churches had the
freedom to do that there's a lotof freedom to innovate there,
and they've taken that freedomand they've gone.
You know, they've like justflown with it, right, and it's
really cool to be able to learnfrom that, and I feel like some
of that is missing in ourparticular context.

(19:21):
I don't know what your thoughtsare on that.
Yeah, lex Well.

Speaker 4 (19:24):
I'll say first, the reason I call it competition is
because, from my point of view,if I see a kid with an ice cream
stand or lemonade stand twohouses down or, let's say, four
blocks over, and I decide I'mgonna go set my lemonade stand
up or ice cream stand two housesfrom him, oh, I'm not really
here to compete.
No, no, we're all brothers.
You saw me here, I've been herefor years upon years and you

(19:48):
decide to come literally a rockthrow away.
So I understand the, Iunderstand the heart behind not
viewing them as competition,because we're brothers in the
faith and we'll all rejoice withthe lord one day.
I'm not trying to downplay that,but when someone slaps you in
the face, they can't act likethey missed a high five, like
it's blatant.

(20:09):
You literally show up rightthere.
You see this church alreadyhere and you come there.
So at some point I think wehave to stop.
We have to kind of be honestwith ourself and say, yeah, we
love them, we're all good, danny, but that's, that's competition
.
Then, as far as the innovationpart, you're right.
When it comes to marketing andbusiness, it's hard because

(20:29):
you're like going against peoplewho have no rules.
When they have no confessionalstandards, they'll do whatever
they want to the rich people.
Like literally they'll havepeople flying in with zip lines
to the pulpit, if it's sometimesvery.

Speaker 3 (20:41):
Yeah, sometimes in a very reckless way, right, right.

Speaker 4 (20:44):
Right, I'm not saying they always do that, but
there's nothing that stops themfrom doing that.
It's not like they're going toget called to the floor of their
denomination, right, orsomething like that.
It's it's okay.
So, considering that, and theyhave all the innovation in the
resource not resources, butideas there's nothing limiting
them.
It's almost as if we kind ofhave to arm and arm with our
brothers and say, I know thisarea isn't part of your reach

(21:06):
out, but I'm doing this event.
If you could bring 10 kids fromyours, I have 10 kids here, now
it's 20.
Now the event seems more of asuccess and more impactful to
the kids that are here.
That also translates to thingsthat adults are doing.
We don't outreach.
If two churches bring five,five people and I have seven yo,
that's 17 people.
We seem like a legit gang, youknow.

(21:28):
So, yeah, um, that's just mythought on that.

Speaker 2 (21:32):
Yeah, no, that's good .
Um, you know, my thoughts oncollaboration was between lcms
congregations.
You know that I do, but youguys kind of talked for.

Speaker 4 (21:39):
Like you hit one point and then jack had another
point.
In regards to meeting with thedifferent groups, I want to
touch on both of them.
I got a chance to so good, so Iwould yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:50):
We should reach out, amen.
I would add that the, not inthe non-denom, I'm OK using a
word competitor, I think thestandard I'm OK with it.
I stand because because we ourdoctrine, like we, we have the
appropriate sense of therevealed, uh, revealed God
through word and sacrament,through means, passive faith, et
cetera, right.

(22:10):
But for for other churches inthe LCMS, if we're not going to
work together with them, weshould at least see them as
worthy rivals in the same team.
You know you're all on the sameteam and one one teammates,
kind of spurring one another off.
Um, but I don't see all, all ofthe all of the stories being
told.
Maybe this is one of my, one ofmy frustrations.
Um, I don't know that all ofthe stories of individual team

(22:34):
members Now we're usingindividual team member as one
church are being told in ourrespective.
I don't think we see each otheras worthy rivals.
In your context, I got somethingto learn from you.
Um, I think it's a more narrowview of what it means to be
Lutheran and we are narrow onour theology.
But as it's getting out, assome LCMS churches are

(22:56):
experiencing growth, I don'tthink all of those stories of
what that looks like and how wecan be faithful and very
mission-oriented for thecommunity.
I don't think all those storiesare being told Frankly.
That's one of the reasons whyLead Time exists is to share
some of those stories.
Praise, be to God, right?
So hey, let's get into pointsof doctrine a little bit more.
What points of doctrine do youfeel we're neglecting and I
think this was probably from aYouTube comment or something

(23:18):
that you made In some of ourmodern circles.
First, how would you definethose who are in the LCMS, who
are also in modern circles, andwhat points of doctrine may we
be missing or neglecting.

Speaker 4 (23:29):
When you say modern circles, are you talking about,
like, divine versus contemporaryworship, or are you talking
about a rural versus urbansetting?
I'm not sure.
Yeah, yeah, okay, you saymodern.

Speaker 2 (23:38):
Sure, yeah, let's just talk worship.
Then, those that maybe are moremodern in their worship
expression or contemporary,that's the word that gets thrown
around right Versus those thatare strictly traditional, go
ahead.

Speaker 4 (23:50):
Okay, in regards to that, I have a unique view on
that being that I come from,like I said, the spectrum of
great songs.
I don't know why I miss it, youknow what I'm saying but I do
think that something's somethingRDA For when it comes to.
Okay, I'll start it off withthis at some point, the organ
was Contemporary.

(24:10):
The organ isn't some holy,divine instrument like the
tambourine is.

Speaker 3 (24:14):
actually, if we want to play that game, the
tambourine is actually Moreinstrument than the organ, right
right, so yes.

Speaker 4 (24:22):
Technical.
But what I'm saying Is is theorgan's fine, but as long as the
music or that part of theliturgy is Christ-centered, good
theology and it's reverent.
You know, I don't really see anissue with that and I kind of.
This is just me elaboratingbecause I know some people's

(24:43):
thoughts when they see a personof my pigmently abundant self in
front of them.
I'm not saying people shouldget up there and be rapping or
some hardcore metal band.
I'm not saying that you knowwhat I'm saying.
But I am saying there aredifferent structures of
Christian worship, music andsong that don't have the organ
as lead, that might have thepiano, might have a little

(25:05):
Spanish guitar going, might havesomebody singing in different
modes.
Because even now me and Dellenlaugh and joke about it that my
natural rhythm count of one, two, one, two doesn't always fit
the German hymnal.
Sometimes I don't know ifthey're going by the three count
or what, but it catches me offguard.
So in regards to that, peopleshould be a day forward.

(25:26):
But I do think there arestandards, even in contemporary,
that define this as LutheranThings like I'll say, like the
Lord's Prayer, confession,absolution, the Nicene Creed, us
connecting ourselves with thehistoric faith.
So, even though you might besinging some great new
contemporary worship song, thesethings still should be inserted
into the liturgy, not takenaway, because we'll never out

(25:49):
non-denom to non-denom.
We have our distinctiveness, Isee.
And one thing when I wasreading through the Book of
Concord last night I believe Iwas reading through the section
on the Mass and it stuck with mewhen it said that last night I
believe I was reading throughthe section on the Mass and it
stuck with me when it said thatI actually have it right here.
Desire to continue not toreject the wholesome, beneficial
and historic worship, likethose type of things I do think

(26:11):
define us.
Sure, the things I mentionedaren't in the Book of Chronicles
where it says you have to dothe Nicene Creed, but there are
things in our tradition and, perthe Thessalonians verse, we do
respect the traditions passeddown.
That I think, even in thecontemporary setting, as long as
we're maintaining those keydistinctives, there should be
some freedom in that sense.

Speaker 2 (26:26):
Hey, don't disagree, there's not much to add to what
you said.
I think we could agree aroundand this is hard because we get
into different contexts but ageneral commitment to the order
of the divine service,regardless of instrumentation.
I think there could be someagreement there and you from the
invocation of the benedictionand everything, everything in

(26:48):
between.

Speaker 4 (26:49):
I think that would ease the arguments up a lot.
There was that that that basefoundation of saying divine or
contemporary, these aspects aredefinitional in regards to how
we operate.
You I'm saying, and I mean wealready are talking about law,
gospel, christ crucified, thosethings you know, we're not
saying, but you give us out more.

Speaker 3 (27:08):
So, in a sense, of what the topics are going around
, so if you come to acontemporary service in our
context, you're going toexperience, uh, most of what you
would consider the liturgicalelements of a liturgical service
.
You're going to have the Lord'sPrayer, you're going to have the
confessions, you're going tohave confession, absolution,
you're going to have the Lord'sSupper and you're going to have

(27:29):
a little bit more of a casualenvironment where people are not
dressing up, pastors notwearing robes, right and you're
going to hear a mix of songsthat you might hear on the radio
contemporary songs that youmight hear on the radio, and
actually this is pretty cool Newsongs, lutheran authored songs,

(27:50):
because we've got thisincredible songwriters
initiative coming out ofConcordia, irvine, where there's
some really incrediblecontemporary Lutheran worship
songs which are just absolutelyfantastic.
And the key thing is that wethink in terms of preservation
of liturgy, and liturgy teaches,it teaches and it confesses,
right, and so that's the beautyof it.

(28:12):
I can go on and on about thepower of memorizing the Lord's
Prayer, because it's taught inworship every single time.
I think you know I'll give thestory.
I was trying to comfort mymother-in-law, giving her some
gospel in her final hours onearth, and I couldn't tell that
she could recognize anythingthat I was saying.
But the moment I said theLord's Prayer she was able to

(28:32):
join me or at least, you know,kind of participate in it,
because it had been burned intoher brain because of liturgy
Right and that's the beauty ofit.

Speaker 4 (28:41):
We have contemporary at my church, we have divine
service and a later one,temporary.
One thing I will mention is alot of times we have these
conversations like this and it'sa beautiful thing.
We have a lot of cradleLutherans as pastors and all
throughout the whole Synod, butbecause they haven't been in the
wild, they don't realize howsacred that Lord's prayer is,

(29:04):
meaning that like we'd never sayit.
As someone who grew up going tochurches, different types of
churches my parents got divorcedwhen I was five, so I have my
grandmother's church, I have mygrandma's church, I have a
church my mom went to and my dadwas a freelance Okay, but
numerous churches.
We never said the Lord's Prayer.
And one of the key distinctivesand it's so powerful, especially

(29:26):
coming from the wild is theaspect of me going to church and
hearing a five year old, 85year old, everybody in unison,
our father, who aren't in heaven, on everybody's heart and grain
in them, doing that.
And that's not somethingbecause people grew up in it.
They don't, you're not used toit.
It's like, yeah, if you eat newyork steak all the time or

(29:49):
wagyu steak all the time, youdon't appreciate it, unless you
had some spam one day, or somechuck steak and you're like man,
you don't know what you havelike.
Oh, this is just wagyu.
Nah bro, that's bro.
That's why I go Appreciate that.

Speaker 2 (30:02):
I think that point is so well taken.
Jack, do a follow up.
What's that?
Oh, yeah, okay, I got a followup.
That's such a good point forthose of us.
I mean, third gen, okay, you dothe divine.
No, God is actually serving you, you just sit and receive.
This is the fact of divineservice, and we could just
orient whether it's moderninstrumentation or organ or

(30:23):
whatnot like maybe this is thedivine service and teaching more
what that means God's servingus, passive faith, you, you sit
and get and then, by thespirit's power, you get and go.
So, man, I love, I love all the, the word pictures you give,
lex, you have a gift with wordsand it's just beautiful.
So you mentioned, as long asit's reverent.
What does reverent mean to youfor worship?

Speaker 4 (30:51):
Reverent, I don't want to see a person in the
pulpit with pasties on doingthat.
I don't want to see a pastorcussing from the pulpit.
I don't want.
I mean, these sound likefar-fetched examples in our
realm but going the wild.
Sometimes we think the grass isgreener on the other side, but
I hate to tell you that that'sastroturf, it's spray painted.
That's not real grass.
It's not real grass.
You know like you'll see people.

(31:12):
There's no sacredness to it.
You know what I'm saying.
Like a song might be heretical,might have notions of that in it
.
You know what I'm saying.
Like a song might be heretical,might have notions of that in
it.
It might not even be about God.
It might be about you, myseason's coming, my breakthrough
and things of that nature,where Christ is just a means.
He just enables me to go getthis bag.
He's not really focused onforgiveness of sins.

(31:33):
It's the power I'm getting fromhim.
So when I say reverent, I meanhonoring God in his correct
place and realizing that withouthim there's nothing I can do.
I am receiving from him I amlooking at him in his majesty on
the cross.
I am forgiveness of sins.
I am thankful.
One thing I like people say isthat you can get the God, even
if the pastor has a horriblesermon?

(31:54):
They say he loses his voice, hestarts doing sign language.
No one knows sign language.
You'll still get the gospelfrom the liturgy.
You'll still get the gospelfrom the song.
Reverend, I think, falls intothat line.

Speaker 3 (32:04):
Yeah, I like to joke that confession and absolution
is there, just in case thesermon doesn't land.

Speaker 4 (32:11):
Right.

Speaker 2 (32:13):
Well, let's, let's take some use this word.
I had a member come in and hewas.
He was wondering about our usein a few sermons of speaking
against the sin of pride I thinkwords are kind of funny and he
was like I don't I about leftthe church, pastor, because you
keep saying pride is a bad thing.
And I was like, well, what doyou mean?

(32:35):
And he goes well, I always say,like for our girls he's a coach
that you should have pride inyour work and you should have
pride in your school and thosetypes of things, or even pride
in your country.
And so I was like, oh my gosh,he was talking about the
appropriate sense of an identitycentered in love, around
building up his young women inthe faith.
And I was saying pride is likeI don't need God, I don't need

(32:59):
anybody else.
That's a sinful sense of pride.
Isn't it fascinating the waywords work and they have to be
defined, and I think sometimeswe don't give enough attention
and care for one another to walkthrough, define what you mean
by that.
I think too often and socialmedia doesn't help us with this

(33:21):
Lex, you know too often people.
That's why, when you had somecomments and we're going to get
into some, some specifics here,like I don't know that we're
saying, hey, I got to hear moreabout, about that, you got to
come and I you hear, you hearfrom when Paul's doing his, his
travels in the book of Acts, andwhile there were Gentiles I'm
thinking of Festus and like,toward the end, hey, you got to
come back.
These government officials,they're like on the fence,

(33:43):
they're kind of even thinkingChristians are crazy.
But there was something aboutPaul that said we got to hear
you again.
And I guess that, to land backon some hopes for the LCMS, that
we would have the time andattention for our brothers and
sisters in Christ who say thingsthat, to our ears, just sound a
little bit, a little bit off.
You know, hey, make the phonecall, make the call, get on the
podcast.

(34:03):
If you have a platform thatyou're kind of talking about
stuff.
We got to cross the aisle inthe LCMS before we can unite in
in mission and and defining whatwe mean by certain things in
our context is very, veryimportant.
Anything to add to that Lex.

Speaker 4 (34:17):
Oh no, um, in that context, I definitely agree with
you how you mentioned, forinstance, how you reached out
saying, hey, would you like tocome on so we could talk, like
you just did.
What do you mean by reverend,rather than assume and just run
off, not saying you would, butin that conversation, and let's
say, not put best construct onor even put best construct on.

(34:39):
My definition might not evenapply to your best construct on,
or even put best construct on,I might not have.
My definition might not evenapply to your best construct.
Maybe my aspect was horrible.
You know, saying you're runningaround, that's actually good
ass, look, and you can.
You, a person, can actuallydelve in and give you example or
clarify.
I totally agree with whatyou're saying, that's it lex.

Speaker 3 (34:56):
I got a question for you because you and I have some
things in common.
We came to Lutheranism later inlife.
I came from a Pentecostalbackground.
Hey got the answer.
What do you think?
What do you think from yourperspective, from your own life?
What do you think Lutheranchurches can do?
I think we keep the reallygreat liturgy core to it,

(35:20):
whether it's contemporary ortraditional.
But what do you think Lutheranchurches need to be doing to
create hospitality for peopleacross cultures, to people that
don't have a German background.
What does it look like to dothat type of outreach and to
create hospitality for people sothat they can come in and they
can get an experience, thistheology experience, community

(35:41):
with other Lutherans?

Speaker 4 (35:41):
So, due to the things I do online, I kind of run into
this a lot.
To be honest with you, yeah,and I'll say I hate to say truly
believe what we say, butrealize that, for instance, I'll
use a Pentecostal exampleMajority of time people think
that people who aren't Lutheranare going to have a hard time
believing that Christ is reallypresent in the host and the wine

(36:05):
.
Like people who are coming froma Baptist, non-lutheran
background.
Like it's going to be, likethat is a stumble about for a
lot of people, but forPentecostals, as that example
you're mentioning, they have noproblem with those things.
Like they believe the guy canmake your foot grow.
They'll watch it on TV all thetime.
Yep, no.
So really stand there with yourchest out, 10 toes down, and

(36:29):
engage this conversation.
We are working with scripturehere, you know, and I won't say
be bold, because people thinkbold means like you run up in
their face like hey, come readthis book of Concord, nah, but
when you talk to them, know thatyou have the confidence that
this is backed up by scriptureand, unlike other people's
confessions, ours has beenvetted.
Now we actually submitted theAugsburg, like yo, this is what

(36:50):
we believe and then got feedbackand a computation and they went
back.
So it's not just a statement offaith page that we stand upon
in our historic tradition.
So I think, in regards tomaking people feel welcome, it's
being active enough to actuallytalk to them, engage them,
really delve in and push back.
Or, if they push back, don'ttake it personal, engage and go

(37:10):
forward and just really havethat as a missional mindset.
Now, everybody's not anevangelist.
I get that.
Everybody's not an officerpastor, but everybody
communicates.
If it's sign language, if it's,if it's conversation, man, if
it's drawing pictures, howeveryou want to do it, we
communicate some way with eachother and be open to those
conversations with your neighbor.

(37:31):
Me getting invited toLutheranism was I'm five nine.
It was a six foot two whitedude from Milwaukee.
You know what I'm saying.
Like, yeah, he's driving a,driving a monster from Milwaukee
.
You know what I'm saying.
Like he's driving a monster bigtruck.
You know what I'm saying Likewho would have thought?
You know what I'm saying?
Who would have thought?
And what's funny is I go moretowards Lutheran and he starts
drifting towards viewing otherthings, but just by him

(37:52):
mentioning to me his thoughtsabout baptism.
It led to conversations, so.

Speaker 3 (37:55):
Lex.
Priest is every believer'sidentity.
Isn't that wild.
Every believer is part of thepriesthood right, so priest is
part of our identity, whetherwe're good at it or not.

Speaker 4 (38:07):
Isn't that interesting.

Speaker 2 (38:12):
Whether we're good at it or not, we got to have you
back on.
But we're going to close withconversation around a couple
podcasts.
Man, if one, I appreciated youjust taking the time to listen
deeply and give your feedbackand carry the conversation
forward and I don't know howthis is going to go.
Frankly, some of the details onmaybe some of the stuff you're
going to jog my memory and I'mgoing to be like, all right,

(38:33):
yeah, I could have said or wecould have done or whatnot, but
specifically we're going to talkabout my friend and so, just
full transparency, like Greg isone of my, one of my friends,
greg, while they're both mybrothers in Christ, but I know
Greg beers for the last coupleof years and and walked as a
friend more closely with himthrough some of his, some of his

(38:54):
struggles and their eventualexit from the LCMS and, you know
, very sad on a variety oflevels.
So I just have a little bit ofa little bit of emotion because
I've had like way moreconversation behind the scenes
than what was obviously publicwith my brother there and then,
and then Greg Manning Greghosted the Large Church Network
Pastors Conference a year and ahalf ago in New Orleans and so,

(39:17):
yeah, two different, verydifferent conversations, but
what would be they were?
I mean, the context of both isvery, very different.
But what, what was your takegenerally on on pastor Greg and
his congregation and, and,unfortunately, kind of how that
whole whole story kind ofunraveled?
Lex.

Speaker 4 (39:35):
So first thing I'll say about pastor Greg Bears is
his outreach is amazing, himbeing able to actually walk
through the neighborhood.
I know people who've been tohis church, who actually been
out there with him talking tohomeless people and sharing the
gospel people.
So by no means am I not am Ibashing that you know saying.
But I will say that during theconversation and it's, it's,

(39:56):
that's nice.
You guys are friends, you knowsaying.
But when you're talking to afriend sometimes things slide,
like even one time jack had toclarify you don't hang your hat
on baptism, you know, and he didclarify it, you know.
But when he said that, um, hehad a person not called, not
ordained preaching from thepulpit, he made it seem as if it
was like he just got up thereto talk about um, foster care,

(40:17):
that guy's.
He and I went just because I'mlike let me check this guy's
church house.
He was, he was after watchingyour podcast, he's had three
full days of full sermons ofliterally it's not like a brief
infomercial, infomercial of hey,we're doing this in the
community for three or fourminutes.
It was like literally aviolation of that statute that
it might sound small to otherpeople but considering, in a

(40:39):
Pentecostal world you wouldn'thave a cessationist in the
pulpit.
So literally we're havingsomeone who might deny Christ's
body and blood, who might denythe washing of regeneration, of
baptism, who you're saying like,and he might actually hold to
it, but as a person in the pewsI don't know if this guy I
didn't sign up for, whatever hisconfession is, to be leading me

(41:01):
and the downplaying of that Ikind of took personal like no,
that's not okay, that's not okay.
And if anyone wants to check,it's like three dates, it's all
in 2023, like going from I thinkit's from like May to September
.

Speaker 2 (41:14):
Did Greg?
You can educate me here,because I haven't looked at
those sermons or non-sermons,whatever you're supposed to
define it.
You can educate me here,because I haven't.
I haven't looked at those uh,sermons but um, or non-sermons,
whatever you're supposed todefine it.
But did he?
Did he kind of set it up at all, or did he kind of wrap in and
around?
Cause from time to time theremay be a ministry leader that
comes up and I may have like aconversation.
I've interviewed some peoplebefore during a sermon time and

(41:37):
kind of had a pre and a post lawgospel kind of declaration, you
know, but we don't, that's,that's by far the exception for
us.
So so yeah, did he kind of setit up and then close it down?
Or how did it go?

Speaker 4 (41:49):
You know Well from watching the live stream and I
try not to watch ones that arejust like a clip of the sermon.
You know what I'm saying.
So, yeah, the full hour, 15.
And this is no, not not to him,but he was out of town so that
can be rough, so I'm not sayingthat he they might have been
familiar with him, you know fromprevious things, but the way it
was, it wasn't set up.
There was no introduction ofhe's here to talk about this,

(42:12):
that's in our ears, of this, youknow.
So there was that aspect andthen, like the, I get it, he
prays a lot.
I don't want to downplay that,but the removal of the Lord
prayer, as if those arecomparable, or that we talked
about earlier, the power of theLord's prayer, yeah, Like that
right there.
It's like, and then and then,like I said those things when I
started watching his service, acouple of them.
I don't see no confession, likeno creeds.

(42:33):
You know what I'm saying.
It's like there's things thatare distinctive to us which all
culminated when he said I'm notin the business of making
Lutherans.
So, yeah, I don't want to takeup all the time, but to me, yeah
, that's why all those thingsare missing, because to me
that's I don't.
For instance, tim, I know you'rea pastor, Pastor Allman, if you

(42:54):
meet someone who's not aChristian, you're going to teach
him to what you consider themost faithful, true expression
of the faith is.
You're a Lutheran pastor.
So I presume you think that themost true, faithful form is
Lutheranism.
In a sense, you're makingLutherans.
Now, there's no way around thatto say I'm not in the business
of making Lutherans.
So are you teaching them Amishdoctrine?

(43:18):
Are you teaching like that made?
No, it sounds nice when someonesays it I'm not in the business
of making this, but here's allthe ingredients to make that.
Those things all culminated towhere I kind of had an issue
with that and I get the Matthew18 part, those things he was
saying.
I do feel that he possiblycould have went to them also,

(43:39):
not saying it would changeanything.
Just because someone's mad atme and they don't follow Matthew
18, I still can be the biggerperson saying hey, I'm in the
back row of the church today.

Speaker 2 (43:47):
Let's talk.
That's good.
One clarifying question andthen a comment.
Did that person that preached,you know, and I don't know the
specifics did you hear anythingthat was like, oh my gosh, this
is totally not Jesus or word,and I'm we're getting into the
details now a little bit, butdid that guest who came, did
they lead them further away fromJesus in some sort of a

(44:08):
heterodox format or did theylead them closer to and that's
probably debatable, but, yeah,any.
I know the risk, so I get theargument.
The risk is always there, forsure, um, but if a person is
talking around a certainopportunity to bring light and
love into the community andthey're looking at maybe the
parable of the Good Samaritan orsomething like that, and

(44:28):
they're teaching about how Jesusdoesn't pass by, jesus, is that
Good Samaritan and comes to us?
Was there anything that waslike oh, that's a question,
because if so, then yeah, and ifnot, then I think it's not a
normal practice, but it's basedin that context and the pastor's
desire to reach people inpartnership with said ministry

(44:50):
and get us people out in mission.
I'm just curious if you thinkthere was anything that was like
whoa, this is whack.

Speaker 4 (44:55):
Yeah, I wouldn't say there's anything heretical.
I will say that it wasn't areal law gospel dynamic.
You know what I'm saying, andto me that's not even a fair
critique, because we are ourpastors, you guys are drilled
and trained to this.
Sermon has to be Christcrucified has to be a law gospel
dynamic.
It has to be.
That's in our DNA, I shouldn'tsay our, but that's in you guys'

(45:16):
DNA.
So yeah, I guess it wasn'theretical, but it was a typical,
probably non-denom type sermon,which I'm not saying it's
heretical, I'm just sayingthat's it wasn't right, so I do
have to say it wasn't that.

Speaker 2 (45:29):
Yeah, yeah, putting best construction on the.
I'm not here to make Lutherans.
I get your, I really really getyour point and our values.
So we've walked this.
We've walked this line.
Our values here are JesusChrist, crucified, risen,
reigning.
It's Bible.

(45:49):
We are people of the word.
We're grounded in the word andthen we're rooted in a Lutheran
LCMS tradition.
So Lutheran sometimes needs abrand overhaul.
Maybe we'll kind of, before weget to Greg Manning's comments
like Lutheran ELCA, all thestruggles there, you know.
And so what type of Lutheranare you?

(46:10):
And so you do have to say no,I'm in the LCMS and if you're in
the know then you know thatit's a confessing conservative
biblical church body body.
But yeah, talk about the brandof kind of lutheranism, given
the deep dive off into, well Iwould say even in many respects
worse territory than yourmainline non-denom in the elca
today.
So any comments aboutlutheranism as a, as a brand, if

(46:32):
you will, lex as a brand.

Speaker 4 (46:34):
Um, hopefully I'm talking about essentially,
you're engaging as an overallbrand.
It's a, it's a crapshoot,meaning that, like you're saying
that elca is the biggestlutheran in america, if I recall
right correct me if I'm wrong,you know.
So it's almost as if we're notsmall, you know, and we're not
their little brother, but truthis they're bigger.

(46:54):
So the, the brand.
A lot of times people hearlutheran, they think the I hate
the word liberal or conservativebut they think the liberal far
side in that sense.
And so it is something where wehave to be strong in our
identity, you know.
But there is a way to talk topeople.
Like, for instance, when I talkto people about the faith, I

(47:15):
don't really mention Lutheranism, but I do mention what we
believe and confess.
I might reference the book ofConcord, and then that leads to
them saying what do you mean?
Article 4?

Speaker 3 (47:23):
Oh, yeah, and I think what Tim was getting at was
that might be kind of how Gregwas thinking in context of that
that that he adheres to theconfessional view of Lutheranism
and believes that's OrthodoxChristianity, but is holding
that label very lightly.

Speaker 4 (47:39):
I'm still making this .
I get what you're saying.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

Speaker 3 (47:42):
But technically speaking, you definitely are yes
, three plus one equals four, sois two plus two.

Speaker 4 (47:48):
So in the end we have to admit that we are making.
We do hold this as the mostcorrect, confessional,
biblically accurate confessionLike that part right there can't
get minimized by saying I'm notmaking Lutherans, no, no, no I
am.

Speaker 2 (48:05):
And in the end that's what I hope you become For sure
and appropriate.
Lutheranism, confessingLutherans, yeah, confessional.
Get to Jesus really really fast, get to grace really really
fast.
This is a community who'swelcome in church, jack.
All sinners, right, all sinners.
We want everyone, whatever kindof baggage you come from, a

(48:34):
non-denom, catholic, charismaticor none, right, n-o-n-e-s
Doesn't matter, man, all sinnersare welcome here.
And Jesus came, for there's nomore distinction.
This is Galatians 3.28, right.
No more Jew, gentile, slave,free, young, old, rich, poor,
male, female.
We're all one in Christ and thereason we're one is because we
all sin and we all desperatelyneed the mercy and grace that
flows from the cross of Christ.
So, all right, that's good.
That's a good conversation withGreg, and, greg, I love you and

(48:57):
praying for you and yourmission in your community there
in Arkansas.

Speaker 4 (49:00):
I love the work he does.
Don't be wrong, I don't want toend on that note.
His outreach reaching peoplewho have no idea about Christ.
A lot to learn and being ableto get out there.
Hey, salute you.
I don't want to end on thatnote.

Speaker 3 (49:11):
You know and nobody's being critiqued, yeah, for sure
.

Speaker 2 (49:15):
For sure.
Let's close with the GregManning critique.
Greg is a pastor, very missionoriented, has a ministry pretty
inner city in New Orleans.
If you didn't listen to thatpodcast, you can go back and he
also has site limitations aswell.
He's worked through a lot ofstruggles to bring and he's also
been in the Black Clergy Caucusand a leader there in that

(49:37):
community.
So yeah, some opening commentsaround the Greg Manning podcast.
Lex.

Speaker 4 (49:42):
So for me, I totally understand what he was saying in
regards to dropping theLutheran off in the church.
I'm not saying I'm in favor ofthat or against it, but I
understand.
I understand as anAfrican-American my whole life.
I know people change nowadays,from Rachel Dozell, all that
type of stuff.
You've been here, no tan here.
This is me in the winter.
I've been German my whole life.

(50:02):
Here we go, yeah, my whole life, every day.
So I do understand that becauseI've talked to various, I know a
good number of Lutherans.
I've talked to people who areprofessors, pastors, and it
shocked me that some of themdon't realize that people aren't
intimidated by the nameLutheran, but they do view it as

(50:23):
we're not welcome sometimes.
So, like literally, they'll belike, oh well, why do they feel
that way?
Who cares why?
It's a fact.
If someone walked into my houseright now and slapped me, I
don't care why you slapped me,we're fine, we're fine.
I know it's not the most holything to say on the line right
now, but I don't really care thewhy they're not welcome.

(50:47):
In that sense I get why hewould drop that name and why it
would help to go from Gloria Dayto Broadmoor.
I do understand that.
You know he had a lot of pointsin regards to diversity and
things of that nature.
Some of the pushback that I hadfrom that is when he talked
about saying the Black CurlyCaucus, one of the main tenets
was reaching basically blackpeople, reaching the urban
community.
My answer to that is since whenI hate to be rude about that,

(51:08):
but I've been a Lutheran for 13plus years and I only found out
about them through Pastor DelwinHarris, and that was years
later and I'm online Like Idon't want to downplay what they
try to do, but sure, instead ofsitting there blaming, kind of
go back to our originalconversation about more ground
level stuff.
Everybody wants to blame senate, we need more money, we need

(51:29):
more this.
And then I look at where I'mfrom and I see all these
independent churches doing itand it's like that what do we
know?
There's a thin line betweenreason and excuse and I think
you hopped over and you're inthe excuse section.
Like being online the blackcurvy caucus.
If you go to their website.
We have a website there.
Uh, they just got a website,it's and you're in the excuse
section.
Like being online the BlackCurly Caucus if you go to their

(51:49):
website.
They just got a website.
It's 2024 when they got one.
The internet's been around.
It's people who are voting agenow since the internet came out,
you just got a website, butyou're here to reach the youth
or Black people.
We're not online.
Is that the reason that doesn'tmake sense to me?
The Is that the reason thatdoesn't make sense to me?
The black convocation I did aYouTube search.
Feel free to do one now if youlike.
You don't really see nothingpop up of past ones of them

(52:12):
having a good time representing.
It was to the point where me,being a new black Lutheran, I
didn't go online and see anyblack Lutherans or you know,
just to have a community in asense, no presence online.
So when I hear those things, itmakes me wonder.
Me wonder, like, like.
You can't just put this onpresident matthew harrison desk,
as if people are reallystruggling and striving out here
for that like, and I don't wantto just pick on them.

(52:34):
You can go to black ministry'sfacebook page or black fruity
caucus.
On their facebook page.
All they pretty much do isretweet the lcms ministry one
like they.
Last year they had for firstRosa Rosa Young.
They had a memorial service atone of the churches down south
for Mother Lutheranism.
My comment was is how come y'alldidn't tell people about this?
I would have loved to watch,yeah, I would.

(52:56):
You know, people don't evenknow that we had a black college
.
It's closed now.
People don't even know and tosay, oh well, they don't really
give us funding.
Why would I expect and this isnot to put race too much on it,
but I shouldn't expect someonewho's not from my tradition, not
from my cultural background, tobe able to have more impact and
more knowledge reaching mycommunity than myself.

(53:16):
So to sit here and point thefinger all the time at
dissenting other people when I'mnot seeing no real Facebook
presence, no YouTube presence,no Twitter presence, no online
presence at all, really.
But you're trying to.
Your claim is that's the numberone goal of it.
I just well, it rubbed me thewrong way.
Like, ask someone who was ablack Lutheran who came in here
and had to do his own thing andhad to build from the ground up.

(53:37):
Not saying we shouldn't have toLike, for instance and this
isn't like spilling no tea butmy friend flame.
He's been to youth gallery,he's been on kfuo, he's at the
convention, numerous otherthings.
Has he been to blackconvocation yet?
Oh, no, and I know the questionwill be well, has has he been
invited and turned it down?
Not the case?

(53:58):
I could speak from that.
Like I said, I'm literally in inthe camp.
You know I'm saying so.
I think that and I don't wantto sound bashful, but at some
sense we have to take ownershipand realize that now we have to
do this, we have to get outthere.
The main reason I'm here todayis because there was no presence
and I had to.
Like yo, there's bad peopleover here behind me.

(54:21):
Youtube is free.
Youtube is free.
Don't tell me you need moremoney from the Sinai.
You don't.
You can get online and get apresent.
I'm patting myself on the back,but I got things that I did
without playing with 7,000 views.
I'm going to BPM and otherconferences and there's people
coming up who recognize me andI'm a nobody.
By no means.
You know what I'm saying.
This guy, they're for uh,certified and everything.

Speaker 3 (54:43):
So that's my, hey, my , that's good jack, you respond
and I'll respond a little morecomplex, but no, I I think
that's where I was saying likethe type of leadership that you
and flame have been doing isprecisely what's needed.
I mean, people need to seelutheranism as something beyond
a white racial identity religion, something that people of all
different ethnic backgrounds,it's for everyone, it really is

(55:07):
for everyone.
The gospel is for everyone, thesacraments are for everyone,
right, and that's where I justneed you know, our church needs
people with as much passion aswhat you and Flame have, and I
think what you're seeing is likewhat it means to influence
people has radically changed,right, I mean, I want to get
into politics here, butpolitical campaigns are

(55:27):
different now than they were 20years ago.
Right, it's podcasts, it'sonline, it's the traditional
media is not the thing thatcarries you anymore, and I think
the same is true more and morewith evangelism.
Right, we need to have a moremodern approach, and it's
champions that are going to goonline and share the faith
boldly that I think are going tohave the biggest, potentially

(55:49):
the biggest catalytical impactof bringing you know, crossing
traditional ethnic barriers.
That's my perspective.
So I think your criticism isfair in the sense that, like you
know, we're just trying toreplicate something that is not
necessarily accessible to people, but just saying that it's oh,
it's Black or it's Hispanic orwhatever.

Speaker 2 (56:07):
right, it's got to be a bigger, broader initiative
than that and I agree with thatand I think the critique is fair
and this is why we need to getbetter at doing both and saying
and rather than but and.
For those that have been in theAfrican American community for
any number of years and withgenerations of struggles, and

(56:33):
sometimes we speak out of ourwounds, right, we weren't, and
this is what Greg would say.
Pastor Manny, you know therehave been opportunities for him
to be in respective rooms andhe's not been invited.
So does it come across as kindof victim?
Are there some wounds in thatrelationship with Synod?
To be sure, what's going to winthe day, lex?
It's confession and absolution.

(56:53):
It's saying I put the worstconstruction on this.
I wasn't invited, I don't knowwhy, and hopefully we can work
toward honestly owning ourcontribution.
We do a lot of work on likedifficult conversations and
stuff, and the quicker I get toown whatever my contribution is
to the dysfunction in ourrelationship, the better man

(57:17):
First, one of the cross wins.
The local ministry needs to takeresponsibility for working
toward unity and and reparationof those, repair, repairing
those, those struggles that are,that are deep and race in the
American landscape.
It's, it's one of the one ofthe struggles that we got to
work through and I, I like yourpoint, though I like and this is

(57:37):
kind of the heart of ULC Don'tjust and around leadership
development, don't just argueand like just kind of moan and
groan, right, just try somestuff, you know.
Try to try to like, move out,out into the uncharted waters,
right, and and try some stuff.
That's the heart of everythingwe've been doing.
We've not even gotten intoleadership development but we

(57:57):
just running, been running sometests and, you know, from time
to time do we get a littlefrustrated because synod and,
you know, conventions moveslowly.
I guess it is what it is, right, it's a 200-year-old church
body that's been around and soyou've got some structures and
bylaws that you're just kind ofworking through and let's just
keep working at it.

(58:17):
I hear you know, from localchurch pastors to innovative
leaders like yourself, let'sjust stay in conversation with
the upward aim of reaching morepeople with the gospel.
Can we all unite around thatand our clear confession of word
and sacrament, law and gospeland all the Lutheran tensions
that?
Yeah, it's like in me, lex.
Yes, I went through the system,but this is how I articulate

(58:40):
the faith, because it pointspeople to Jesus, points people
to grace, and so I just think wehave some room for growth and
I'm glad you bring up the GregManning podcast.
We have room for growth interms of confessing our sin to
one another and receivingforgiveness.
All of life is confession andabsolution.
And if Greg Pastor, Greg Manningwant to reach out to you and

(59:00):
have a conversation to clearanything up, I'm sure the door
is wide open, right, Lex?

Speaker 1 (59:05):
If anybody wants to connect with you.

Speaker 2 (59:07):
Yeah, go ahead.

Speaker 4 (59:07):
The door is wide open .
To be honest, I reached out tothe Black Curl of the Caucus and
Black Ministry before I reachedout.
So I honestly doubt they will,because obviously it wasn't
reciprocated.
And I'm not saying thatnegatively, that's fine, you
know what I'm saying.
But it's hard to sit here andput best construct on and come

(59:28):
to a different conclusion whenit's I see no presence, I see no
effort in that sense, and thenI'm like, hey, I'm just happy to
help any way.
I can Maybe highlight yourguys' sermons and this and this,
and I get certain types ofreplies or certain types of
replies and nothing goes forward.
So the door should remain openas it is, you know, but the door
shouldn't be closed.
We're all brothers within this,amen.

Speaker 2 (59:49):
Amen, hey, if people want to connect with you, follow
you, where can they do so?

Speaker 4 (59:52):
man.
Um, you always can email me atuh uh Wittenberg PRJ at gmailcom
.
At gmailcom, I'm online, I'm onTwitter.
I don't recommend you follow me, but Lex underscore Lutheran.
Why don't you recommend?

Speaker 2 (01:00:09):
me to follow you on Twitter.

Speaker 4 (01:00:11):
What are?

Speaker 2 (01:00:12):
you doing on Twitter.

Speaker 4 (01:00:13):
Well, from this conversation here, y'all
probably can see that I shootfrom the hip.
I'm going to talk, I'm going tosay what I think you know.

Speaker 2 (01:00:25):
I enjoy you because I there is so much.
This is why we could disagree.
We could have probably foundmore things.
We disagree and I think wehandled the two podcasts pretty
well, to be quite honest, tryingto give love and charity, but
also also truth.
We have a propensity in thewider church because Jesus,
jesus I think it gets the labelof nice.

(01:00:45):
Jesus is kind, but Jesus isalso fierce, right, I mean,
jesus is straight to the heart.
If something's wrong and I thinkin the Missouri Synod in
particular and I have the datato prove this is we're overly
passive, we don't say what wethink and we may create
triangles.
So that's why I appreciate youand the Spirit of God that has
been placed upon you to yeah,can you come?

(01:01:07):
You're frank.
Can that become maybe rude, alittle edgy?
Well, here's the thing that Idon't find you.
I don't find you offensive ifwe could disagree on something,
because I'm talking to you faceto face.
Even though it's technologyright now, sometimes with a
written word, it needs to befallen up with a spoken word,
right, because there's contextto everything we say.
So if you step just across theline a little bit on a statement

(01:01:28):
, hopefully people reach out andthe dialogue just points more
people to Jesus ultimately,because I think we need more
frank discussion in the LCMS,and so thanks for being about
that, lex for sure.
Any closing comments, bro, thishas been a good time.

Speaker 4 (01:01:43):
No, I'm really thankful as someone who's been
at Lutheran for a good number ofyears and seeing the gradual
process of us getting involvedonline from Worldview et cetera,
being pretty much one of theonly ones or Pastor Paul McCain
recipes to Jordan Cooper, 1517,ryan Wolf Miller, and now seeing
online and you guys and we needmore of that and it's great

(01:02:06):
that people can go to thoseresources.
Or, if they have no idea,there's some girl.
She has a girl podcast with herand a Roman Catholic and she
recently did one based on fromconversations online and seeing
Brian Wolfmiller's stuff hasconverged to Lutheranism.

Speaker 1 (01:02:21):
Now I'm not saying we're running the church to find
that.

Speaker 4 (01:02:24):
But just us being out there with our passive sense,
us being online, makes it sopassive or not.
We're there and I want to thankyou guys and I know the online
guys aren't here, but them tooand, in general, the people who
are actually putting that effortout there to leave a digital
footprint that people can findand hear about Lutheranism.
Hear can find and hear aboutLutheranism.
Hear about our thoughts, evenif it's not always thoughts

(01:02:44):
where it's like I'm trying toshare doctrine with you, but you
still can know we have opinionson things and we're going to
talk about it and disagree inthis manner or praise each other
in this manner or critique eachother in this manner.
We're at the table.
We're at the table and that'sall I can ask for.
I remember I know it getslong-winded, but I wrote a blog
a while ago and one of thebiggest, most highlight moments

(01:03:05):
online for me was Todd Wilkincommenting on it and it kind of
scared me.
You know what I'm saying, but mytopic was we need a celebrity
pastor.
It was a clickbait title, so Iwasn't really saying we need a
celebrity pastor.
I was saying that we needsomebody at the table.
So when you have all theseother bigwigs out here speaking,
we need somebody at the table.
So when you have all theseother bigwigs out here speaking,

(01:03:26):
we need somebody where it'slike what's a Lutheran thing?
There's a place or a source forpeople to say that's the
Lutheran perspective.
So it wasn't really we need acelebrity pastor.
I just did that to make peoplelook at it, but the concept of
us being present to where, whenthat talk's going on, you'll be
able to find us, you'll be ableto find our view somewhere out
here.
So thank you, guys, andeverybody else who's out there
in the world doing this, thankyou as well.
Extra notes Extra notes Academy.

(01:03:47):
Can't forget that.

Speaker 3 (01:03:48):
I mentioned Dr Cooper 1517.

Speaker 4 (01:03:50):
I got to mention my people is awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:03:52):
That's right.
Yeah, extra notes Check outExtra Notes Academy.
Extra Notes Academy Extra Notesa book by Flame.
So good, this is Lead Time,like subscribe, comment wherever
it is, you take these in andI'm sure we're going to have
some good comments there andwe'll engage and we'll grow as
Jesus followers.
Lex, you're a gift of the bodyof Christ.
Welcome to the LCMS, my friend,and looking forward to

(01:04:13):
connecting next time.
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
Thanks, jack.
Wonderful work, lex.
God bless brothers.
God bless you guys.

Speaker 1 (01:04:19):
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