August 19, 2025 • 52 mins
The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod often talks about vocation—but are we living it out? In this powerful episode, Tim Ahlman and Jack Kalleberg sit down with Dr. Travis Guse, executive coach and author of Called to Be, to challenge the assumption that “calling” is only for pastors and church workers.
Travis shares his journey through burnout, identity crisis, and rediscovering Luther’s radical teaching that every baptized believer has a holy calling—whether they’re pastors, parents, accountants, or baristas. The conversation explores:
✅ Why so many in the LCMS struggle with identity and purpose
✅ How Luther’s view of vocation can transform ordinary life
✅ Why coaching may be the key to raising up healthier leaders and congregations
✅ The controversial question: Does the LCMS undervalue the callings of everyday believers?
This episode will make you rethink what it means to follow Jesus in the LCMS—and why discovering your God-given calling may be the most urgent issue facing the church today.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is Lead Time.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Welcome to Lead Time.
Tim Allman here, jack Calbergin the house.
Life is good, jack.
Hey, you feeling good?
Speaker 3 (00:10):
Fantastic man.
It's a beautiful day here andlife is good.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
It really is.
May the joy of Jesus be withyou today, as you're buckled up
to learn with Travis Goosey.
Let me tell you a little bitabout him.
He's been a guest on Lead Timebefore in the past, but he's got
a new book, a couple books thatwe wanted to talk about today.
He's an International CoachesFederation Certified Life and
Executive Coach Gallup StrengthCoach In 2022,.
(00:37):
He completed his doctorate incoaching at Western Seminary in
Portland, oregon.
He serves in the SoutheasternDistrict of the LCMS as
Executive Director of Wellnessand Coaching.
We're going to be talking alittle bit about wellness, too
today.
Travis lives in Williamsburg,virginia, with his wife,
stephanie, and one son, kendall.
His passion is empoweringeveryday believers to discover
and live out their authenticcalling in Christ.
What a cool calling is that,travis?
(00:58):
You're loving life.
How are you doing, buddy?
Speaker 4 (00:59):
Yeah, doing good.
Actually, since that we'vemoved to Richmond Virginia, so
not too far away, but prettyclose.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Is that still in the same district, then yeah,
Southeastern District.
Speaker 4 (01:08):
Yeah, we moved our offices from the DC area down to
Richmond, and so I thought it'dbe a little better to be closer
to the office, cool.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Well, good stuff.
I'm sorry about that.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
Yeah, no, no, no, I think I led you the wrong way on
that, so my apologies.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
How's that move been for you?
Speaker 4 (01:23):
Good, good.
Yeah, it's helping me get upand down the district a little
bit more, and especially thatthe 64 going between Richmond
and Williamsburg they'reexpanding the freeway so it's
cutting off a little congestionin time off my travel.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
So yeah, I love Virginia.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
Yeah, beautiful, beautiful state.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
It is very pretty.
It's no wonder the foundersactually in our country chose
hey, let's chill here.
It is pretty spectacular, solet's get into calling.
Your book is all about calling.
If you don't know, one book iscalled who have you Been Called
to Be?
A Studying on Coaching andLuther's Teaching on Vocation,
and then his other kind ofseminal work is this book called
(02:04):
Called to Be?
And yeah, I love it.
Why is discovering and livingout one's authentic calling in
Christ so necessary and why isit so rare?
Travis, let's start there.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
Yeah, you know, I think that I mean this was
definitely as my first book,that's actually my dissertation
that who have you Been Called toBe, we got it published.
Really, seeing that forministry leaders and coaches and
for me it's just, I think that,similar to Luther's day, so
many believers don't realizethey have a calling.
(02:36):
I think they, if you were toask today and Barna has done
some research on this if you askpeople, hey, who has a calling?
Pastors, yeah, they've got acalling.
Church workers, worship leaders, sunday school teachers, they
have callings.
But if you ask somebody, doesan accountant have a calling?
Does a garbage collector have acalling?
(02:57):
Does somebody who works atMcDonald's have a calling?
I think most people would sayno, they don't.
Works at McDonald's have acalling?
I think most people would sayno, they don't.
And I think that was the beautyof Luther's teaching on vocation
is that no, it's not justchurch workers, priests, monks,
like back in their day it wasthe same thing, those people had
callings.
Everybody else just did stuff.
(03:17):
And from Luther's perspectiveit's no, every baptized believer
has a holy calling in life andit's not just what you do on
Sunday morning, but you has aholy calling in life, and it's
not just what you do on Sundaymorning, but you have a holy
calling in every aspect of yourlife and it's what God does in
and through that, to bring hisblessing and his provision that
we get to be part of God'skingdom even in the ordinary
(03:39):
things of life and his movingand working.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Let's get into that a little bit deeper.
His moving and working.
Let's get into that a littlebit deeper.
Luther, for those that don't.
I mean we talk vocation andLuther a lot here, but I don't
know that we always ground it inscripture.
So I'd love for you to justtake us.
Where did Luther ground hisunderstanding of the royal
priesthood?
Obviously we got first Peterright, but where did he ground
in other places this elevatedview of every baptized believer
(04:02):
called Travis?
Speaker 4 (04:04):
Yeah it.
You know, for Luther it reallycame down to.
You know the encouragement Paulhad.
You know, don't forget yourcalling.
You know that Paul would talkabout, and it was this idea that
you know, calling was somethingthat wasn't grounded so much in
what you did, but it was firstand foremost grounded in who we
(04:26):
are in Christ.
So it's that baptismal callingFirst.
Peter talks about that beingpart of that priesthood of all
believers.
But it also is that grounding inthat ultimate identity that
each and every one of us hasthrough faith in our baptism
that we're a child of God andbecause of that calling by grace
, through faith that we freelyreceive, then it begins in the
(04:50):
horizontal plane of life.
It begins to redefineeverything that we do, so
because of who we are in Christ,in that vertical relationship.
Then, all of a sudden, now, inall of our areas of
responsibility of life, again,it's not just stuff we do, but
now it takes on this holy natureto it.
And so one of the ideas I lovein doing some research around
(05:12):
Luther and his teaching is thisidea that we ascend in faith in
that vertical relationship, butnow we descend in love and
service to our neighbors and oureveryday callings of life, and
so it redefined what it is to bepart of the church.
It redefined what it is to be aparent, to go into your
workplace and have a holy senseof calling and just loving and
(05:34):
serving your neighbor and yourcommunity.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
So it starts with identity right, yes, absolutely.
You know, I've read a lot of,you know, Luther's writings and
that word, that's a common wordnow.
But then I don't.
You didn't hear it as much.
Right, you had to kind of inferokay, that's what we're getting
at, it's getting at thisidentity, that it's the who we
are statement.
That's right.
Right, that's not somethingthat we create for ourselves,
(05:57):
but something that is beingformed and molded onto us by God
.
Speaker 4 (06:01):
And gifted.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
And gifted as well, gifted to us by God.
So think about this, thinkabout how much people are
struggling with this issue ofidentity right now, and even in
the church, even in the church,I think people really struggle
with identity and I think we wethe wider, the broader church,
let's say, doesn't always havereally great language to talk
about that and reallynecessarily ground people in
(06:25):
identity as well as it could.
Speaker 4 (06:27):
Yeah, I think part of the problem is whether we're
taking an outside in or aninside out approach.
So I think a lot of times wehave tended to look to things
external for ourselves foridentity.
What I did in my job, and youknow so what job did I have, the
prestige that came from it, theaccolades or achievements I
(06:49):
make.
We tended to look at where welive, zip codes.
We tended to get identity fromfamily.
You know what family, whatnationality, what nation you
came from, all these differentkind of things externally.
But I think what the challengeis in our brokenness of our
society, which, let's just admitthat the further we get away
from the faith of our ancestors,the more that those things get
(07:14):
stripped away from us.
Also, when we suddenly strugglewith the breakdown of families,
we're losing a sense ofidentity there.
We're losing a sense ofconnection and nationality and
community.
We're losing a sense in thischanging workplace where
suddenly you didn't have one jobthat you had for your entire
life.
But now you know, I think, thatpeople on average in a lifetime
(07:37):
is going to go through seven,not just different jobs, but
careers and what's coming withAI in the next 10 years, entire
industries that are going to beautomated and no longer having
humans in the workforce.
Suddenly, all these things thatwe look to externally for
identity have been stripped away.
They're not solid, they don'tlast, and so it's causing us to
(08:00):
have to go inside to ask reallydeep questions who am I, what's
life about, what's my purpose,why am I here, and what
difference am I supposed to make?
And so I think we have anentire society that is longing
for this sense of identity,because there's no permanence in
the things that we used to lookto, and that's the wonderful
gift, I think, why the time isright to rediscover this
(08:23):
incredibly rich teaching of thescriptures and Luther had
rediscovered 500 years ago is no, there is an identity that we
have that is freely given inChrist, and it's that that
begins to then inform the restof not only who we are but what
life is about.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
If somebody wanted to go back to some of Luther's
original writings, what's a goodstarting point for people to
kind of see.
Speaker 4 (08:46):
Yeah, you know, one of the best books on it is
there's a book by Gustav WingrenLuther on Vocation.
Now it's kind of deep.
I mean I, like for my doctorwork, had to read through that
at least three different times,but it is really rich.
(09:07):
I would say that's a great workthere it is.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
Tim's got it on his bookshelf.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
Got at Work by Jean Edward Vieth is another
fantastic book, and actually itwas really an entry point for me
in a lot of this a number ofyears ago.
So those would be two that Iwould look to to really say, hey
, if you really want to take adeeper dive in this, those are
the two places to go.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Let's get into called to be.
I know this kind of piggybackson your dissertation work, but
how did it start and whatexactly is your aim?
I love your tagline how todiscover and live out your
calling in Christ.
I know it's just more of whatit is, but you've kind of
started this movement, if youwill, around the conversation of
identity, and I love it, Travis.
So tell the story of Call toPeace.
Speaker 4 (09:49):
Yeah, you know, it started about 18 years ago.
I was serving as a pastor myfirst call, pastoral call in
Southern California.
I had a rough ministryexperience and had to step out
for a season just to get somehealing.
Wasn't anything really morethan that but for my wife and I.
But what turned into thinkingit was going to be a short-term
(10:12):
stepping out turned into a yearand a half of being out of
ministry and honestly reallystruggling with my own personal
journey of who am I and what'slife about when I'm not a pastor
.
And I didn't realize how muchof my identity had got caught up
in that idea of being a pastor,the validation of who I was
(10:35):
from, what I did and thefeedback I got from others.
And when you were without thatfor any kind of season of time I
mean anybody who's unemployed,without a job I mean you wrestle
with these questions.
I think a lot of people alsowho retire wrestle with these
questions because so much oftheir identity was wrapped up in
their work for so many years.
Now, when you're retired, whoam I?
So it's a big struggle and Ireally was.
(10:58):
I mean probably some of thedeepest depression I ever had
and it really forced me to goback to OK, well, who am I?
It forced me to go back toJesus to rediscover your child
of God.
That's where your identity is.
And it was at that time that afew different things came about,
kind of all at once in my life.
I really kind of discoveredthis idea of Luther's teaching
(11:23):
on vocation through Jean EdwardV's book God at Work.
So I kind of got this idea thateverybody has a calling, not
just church workers.
Ok, that's, that's great tohear, and it's in who you are,
in Christ.
At the same time, I discovereda new assessment tool that was
just coming out through a churchmosaic in LA.
They had a leadershipdevelopment process and they
(11:45):
were using Strengths Fighter, ornow CliftonStrengths has been
rebranded by Gallup a few yearsago and suddenly I had words and
articulation for things Ialways knew about myself as part
of God's gifting and design inmy life that I just didn't have
before.
And it was just these ahamoments.
I suddenly understood why itwasn't this square peg trying to
(12:05):
be put in the round hole ofpastoral ministry.
Why was it?
I enjoyed talking to Muslimsmore than doing hospital visits.
Why was I entrepreneurialrather than just shepherding and
caring for people and it gaveme that understanding.
This is how God designed,gifted me and wired me that way.
And then the third thing is,through that assessment, through
Gallup and some other things, Icame to discover this field of
(12:27):
coaching a way to help people,not pour into people, but to
help people discern and pull outin their life this idea of
identity, purpose, gifting,meaning, and found a way to
disciple people in a personaland practical way that I didn't
have before.
I mean, I always felt as apastor it was like this shotgun
(12:48):
approach, preaching and teachingand just hope that it hit
somebody.
But I discovered this personalway that I could, like laser
focus in with people, to havethese deep conversations which
really are about calling andvocation and life in a way that
I didn't have, that was personaland practical for people.
(13:08):
And it was kind of this timewhere all these things came
together that it helped me in mylife, that I saw man, what a
great way to be able to walkalong and help people in
discovering and living out theircalling as well.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Travis, congratulations, you won.
I mean the Holy Spirit wonthrough you, because it's really
easy to give up and to say I'mmoving on.
God, your call, in somerespects, as you've abandoned me
, and to live a green with Job'swife right, curse God and die.
(13:45):
Why does this have to happen tome?
But to trust in a God who isgoing to lead you through the
valley of the shadow of deathand you're gonna survive and
you're gonna thrive.
On the other side there's a lotof leaders, travis, who don't
make it, who give up.
So if this is you and you feellike you're stuck, you've given
(14:06):
up that God doesn't have amission, purpose, plan and
calling upon your life.
I pray this podcast would be acatalyst to keep moving, keep
trusting, keep trying, keepbuilding, keep failing and keep
getting back up again, becauselife is really, really hard and,
apart from the calling that wehave in our baptism in Christ
(14:27):
and the hope that we have in thefuture, because Christ is going
to return to raise the dead andmake all things new, that
future hope is what catalyzes usfor love and good deeds.
In the present moment, we getto be about the greatest love
story of all time bringing loveto those who feel unlovable, and
to identify and to confess.
There are moments and there areparts about me this is what I
(14:49):
love about Strength Finders thatI don't find lovable, and if
I'm living according to those,if I'm kind of beating the drum
to a different beat than how Godhas hardwired me to live, oh,
my goodness, it's going to beunfortunate.
Our team has just actually beenwalking through Strength
Finders.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
And team assessment and team assessment With a
facilitator and everything itwas fantastic.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Seeing some of our trends as a team.
It's been very, very helpful.
Oh, that's why you're the wayyou are and that's why, when
you're doing something that isnot in your natural gifting, you
get frustrated, you get angry,you know.
And so how do we help peoplelive according?
Speaker 4 (15:33):
to how God has hardwired them to live Anything
more to say, travis, to whatSpring Fire has meant to you.
Yeah, I'll tell you, it just isreally honoring God's
workmanship in a person.
I mean to be able to say, hey,this is what I and I think
that's a beautiful thing is.
It gives you permission ofknowing, hey, this is who God's
wired me to be.
And it's not that we can't dostuff we're not gifted in.
But, as you talked about, youknow, you sometimes wonder why
(15:53):
you don't do it as well.
It takes more time, it takesmore energy and you get
frustrated.
But boy, it sure is a nicepermission to be able to say you
know what, this is what I'mgood at.
Let me figure out how to putmore of my time kind of do like
job sculpting.
Let me get more focused on whatI do well, so that I can be
that blessing that God intendedme and make that impact I'm
(16:14):
supposed to, and to be able tosay you know what?
I'm not as gifted at that, andeither I've got to find some
ways to kind of manage that, getthat off my plate, or to be
able to partner with people whohave complimentary giftings to
me.
And then this idea of the powerof two that you know we're
better together than we are byourselves.
(16:34):
When I'm doing what I do wellin my strength zone and
somebody's working in theirstrength zone, that happens to
be my stress zone, and yet we'reworking together.
We get more accomplished thanwe can by ourself.
And Tim, I did want to say oneother thing.
You talked about thatencouragement to people going
through difficulties.
You know, for me I really sawwhat I went through as a
crucible moment.
I always believe there's amoment God saves us and there's
(16:56):
a moment God recreates us.
Sometimes that's one and thesame, sometimes they're
different moments of life.
And you know that moment whereyou've got nowhere else to go
but the cross of Jesus.
And the wonderful thing I lovethat Luther teaches is that when
we have those crosses of ourvocations and we fall at our
knee before the cross thatLuther talks about how he meets
(17:17):
us with his grace, with hispresence and with fresh
expressions of the spiritsmoving in our life, that God
recreates us and starts workingthrough us in new and powerful
ways.
And it's this idea that Goddoesn't just redeem us, but he
can even redeem the hardships,the mistakes no-transcript.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
It's back to Luther when he said you know, repent is
not a one time thing, it's anentire life of repentance.
Yeah, I think, I think you'reright.
I feel like every single daythere's a process where you know
we're being built intosomething different by God,
right, and that process neverstops until we die and then it
continues in the resurrection,right, amen you is in the
(18:06):
resurrection right, Amen.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Hey, for those that have not looked into.
Clifton Strength Finders foryour team.
What's the best place for themto go?
Find it Now before I let youkind of promoted it a little bit
.
I'm a promoter, so if you lookon the wheel fast-paced people
it's not going to surpriseanybody if they've listened to
me for a while.
I'm a promoter.
I love getting behind areaswhere God is at work and telling
stories and I'm a challenger.
(18:28):
Platforms, et cetera.
Yeah, Jack, you're definitely achallenger.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
I'm the kind of guy that says what do you mean by
that?
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Asking a lot of questions and what I like about
it is it says how are youadapting in the workplace and
are you adapting toward yourstrength or away from your
strength?
So one of the things just toassess for me.
I've had to adapt over time ina ministry that was financially
anxious.
I've had to adapt more into apersuader, so I crossed above
(18:59):
into fast task and that's notsustainable for me.
I need to live fast with peopleand then have people that are
fast with a task, like Jack, andso asking people for money is
not in my wheelhouse.
I can do it, but it really ishard for me and because I've
(19:21):
seen it actually hurtrelationship.
It's almost like inconsistentwith how God hardwired me and I
think sometimes people can evenlike see through.
This isn't your natural giftingto persuade me in this
direction.
And honestly, in a number oflike the controversial topics in
the LCMS that we've like talkedabout, I don't like hanging
there for very long, I can liketouch on it, but I just like to
(19:41):
promote the beauty and goodnessand wonder and awe and like the
new ideas that are that arecoming about.
Some of the ideas are great,some of them are not, and let's
assess it together.
I mean, that's how God kind ofhardwired me, but to like get
into a long form debate withsomeone to try to win an
argument feels like power andcontrol to me and that that
that's not how God has hardwiredme to live in that, in that, in
(20:03):
that space.
Anything more to say to thatJack and how we're assessing?
Speaker 3 (20:12):
Yeah, no, that's interesting Cause I kind of made
a connection as I was kind ofreflecting on myself.
I'm one of the very few peopleon our staff that has that more
of that challenger.
Uh, you know the uh, was it theeight on the Enneagram, kind of
kind of the on the wheel theycall it the conductor right and
kind of.
I made a connection thatactually my, my frankness is
kind of a spiritual gift that alot of people don't have, and
(20:36):
actually my love language isactually challenge, and so the
thing that people need to knowabout me is like that's actually
the way that I love people isthat I see their potential and I
just care so much about themthat I'm not willing to let
things go.
I want to speak to them abouthey, no, you can do this better.
Imagine how great it would beif you actually stepped up and
did this thing Right, and or,you know, if we all gathered
(20:59):
around this idea together Right.
So it's actually a, it'sactually a way that I love
people, and I think that's thekey thing is I have to keep
telling myself that and not letit ever kind of be an expression
of anger or frustration oranything like that, but just
really be like a love expressionto people.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Yeah, you're weird on our team and being slow or data
.
We don't have many folks thatare slow data and task and
that's probably okay.
Most of our team two thirds orthree fourths of our team are in
the quadrant that I'm in withtheir natural skills fast paced
people.
There also is some said I was Iwas hypothesizing if you're in
(21:39):
a different kind of churchthat's maybe a little older and
you're a soul pastor and yourdays look different than a lot
of our days.
You may be in the people butslower pace toward getting
things done.
You've adapted toward thatdirection.
Travis, how has God made youand when you were going through
that assessment, were you livinglike?
(22:00):
Were you having to adapt to dothings kind of like I was, that
weren't in your gifting?
Tell that story.
Speaker 4 (22:05):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
And again that goes back to, Ithink, that feeling of being a
square peg trying to be put in around hole, like.
One of the things that wasreally interesting was I had I
went through our North Americanmission track at the seminary.
So I mean, I've always beenoutreach, mission oriented and I
went through a behavioralassessment on my vicarage.
(22:26):
I was involved in a missionstart and they were talking to
me it's like, well, travis, whatdo you do?
Naturally, you know I'm talkingabout connecting with people
from all different culturalbackgrounds and social economic
backgrounds.
And they said, well, how do youdo that?
And I'm like I don't know, Ijust do it, it's just natural to
me.
And then a few years later Itook CliftonStrengths and
(22:48):
suddenly number one was Includer.
I'm always looking for peopleon the outside wanting to bring
them on the inside.
And then my number four isConnectedness, this unseen
spider webs of relationships andevents in life.
Everything's connected togetherand I think it's those two that
really are part of thatmissional gifting and impulse
that God gives where I'm able toconnect with people from so
(23:10):
many various backgrounds.
The other things about my topfive number two ideation.
I got more ideas than I knowwhat to do with.
They're not all good ideas, butI got ideas for you and
somewhere in there there's somenuggets Strategic number three,
(23:42):
no-transcript like she had a pinwanting to pop my idea bubbles
of the future and it was like,ah, this is just so beautiful.
She's a realist, yeah.
Well, so for her, her giftingsare like analytical,
deliberative discipline, harmony.
She always says my ideationdisrupts her harmony in life.
(24:03):
But what I've learned We'vealready decided this why are we?
Yeah, yeah, exactly Right.
But what we learned was what wethought were differences, and
this could be in marriage, thiscould be in the workplace.
We suddenly, throughCliftonStrengths, came to
realize it's how we're beingcomplementary to each other and
actually, where I'm strong,she's weak and vice versa.
(24:26):
She's not as gifted and yettogether.
And what I learned was to takemy ideas to her.
If she could pop it, I need togo back to the drawing board and
think some things through.
Or she started learning how toserve me by helping me refine my
ideas and think through myideas in more detail.
That I needed.
I mean, I'm the initialconceptual strategy guy.
Now say hey, hon, how do I makethis better and how do I make
(24:48):
sure I don't fail at this, andso that's how we started
realizing we work together andthat we need those kind of
people in our life to accomplishthe things that God's calling
us to.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Let's get into the details of your basic calling
model.
Speaker 4 (25:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
And why it's important to help people find
their calling sweet spot.
Talk about that, Travis.
Speaker 4 (25:06):
Yeah.
So it's this idea that if youwere to think of three circles
that overlap each other, one ofthem is how we have been gifted
in our strengths in life.
That's part of God'sworkmanship and design, and we
utilize some different tools.
Cliftonstrengths is one ofthose.
Disc is another one that can bevery helpful.
(25:28):
Myers-briggs I mean.
There's not one magicassessment to rule them all.
They all show different aspectsof ourselves, but we use some
tools to get into some of ourgifting in life.
Also our passions.
That's another circle.
What are the deep burdens inour life or the things that we
get super excited about?
Because that's the gas in thetank, not only for yourself, but
(25:51):
even Barna has found thatreally different initiatives to
serve communities.
About 70 percent of the timeare gathered around a common
passion in life.
So that's also going to bring agroup together.
And then the third it's notasking the question what does
the world need?
I think that's way too big, butI think a good question to ask
(26:12):
is who needs what I have tooffer?
And that really helps you honein on that calling sweet spot,
because not everybody needs whatyou have to offer, but there
are people who desperately needwhat you have to offer People
who, for them, what you offer inlife may be common around.
That common passion is exactlywhat they need to be able to
(26:35):
achieve what God's calling themto, and again, it's that
partnership together.
So it's, you know, we can dothings, but if it's not matched
by passion, well, that's notgoing to last very long.
We're going to get bored, we'regoing to not have the energy
for it.
Or if we have passion but wedon't have gifting, that's like
American Idol OK, you may have apassion for singing, but you
don't belong on a stage makingmoney at this and then finding
(26:58):
that third, you know who needswhat you, uniquely, can bless
them with.
And when you bring those threecircles together, that's your
calling sweet spot.
It's almost like when you'vebeen out golfing and you hear
that ping, where you just hitthat just dead on and that's
where you get that good hit.
That goes a long way versususually what I'm doing is I'm
(27:20):
either slicing or hooking to theleft or right and trying to
hunt for my ball.
You know we don't need to behunting for our ball, we want to
try to get that, that sweetspot.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
Yeah, so let's talk to maybe a younger leader who
feels like man, I'm doingsomething right now.
That is just not aligned.
I think an unwise thing is toimmediately quit that thing.
Speaker 4 (27:43):
Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
Right and I've interacted with young leaders
who make bad decisions to stopdoing what they're currently
doing in anticipation ofcreating the ideal and perfect.
Calling and I think themisnomer is like I'm going to
find this exactly perfect is soin our vocabulary today the
(28:07):
perfect.
There's no perfect, it's movingtoward the ideal.
In my estimation, it's actuallyalways being perfectly content
in my identity and then alwaysmoving, striving, pushing,
listening, being led into what?
That future, because I don'texactly know.
It's a sense of wonder and aweabout how God is kind of going
(28:29):
to unfold.
I do know that I've been calledto this place at this time and
for me as a pastor, I mean Iwouldn't do anything else.
I love telling people aboutJesus and being on team to see
lives transform, but likecreating the perfect environment
, like Jack, we're not evenclose to that right now.
We're always, we're alwaysmoving forward.
So what word of wisdom wouldyou give to that leader who
feels like they're not in theirsweet spot right now, but they
(28:51):
see it.
What, what's, what are words ofwisdom as they try to create by
the spirit's power thatpreferred future?
Speaker 4 (28:57):
Yeah, first of all, calling is not always about
future.
Calling is where you are today.
It's as far as your hands canreach and your eyes can see.
It's who God has put before you.
Those are the people you'vebeen called to.
So I think what it is is startwhere you're at today.
First of all, get an idea.
How have I been gifted soyou're knowing what you do well
(29:18):
and what you don't In that area?
If there are things that you'renot doing as well, who can you
partner with to do better?
Or how can you offload that?
And that takes some job,sculpting, that takes some time
to sometimes get there.
The other is how do you tapinto passion to get an idea of
what are the things that I'mreally passionate about?
And if you can't really getthat, maybe in one area, maybe
(29:41):
it's work.
Really get that, maybe in onearea, maybe it's work.
You know, find some other areaswhere you can tap into passions
in life so that you're getting achance to fuel yourself and
using your gifts in some otherareas.
It may be with your spouse, itmay be in doing some service in
the community, and then it'sreally just serving in all these
different stations.
You know Luther talks aboutthis idea of in the church, in
(30:01):
our workplace, in our family andin our community.
Take a look at who are thepeople that God has placed in
your life there and now say,okay, with my passions and my
gifting, who can I serve and inwhat way?
In my church, in my family, inmy workplace?
And then it's a matter of thenprayer.
Sometimes it's trial and error.
(30:22):
Having a coach with you kind ofhelps you discern that and walk
through that a little bit.
And then the last thing I wouldsay is you know, sometimes it
may take some work to get fromwhere you are to where you sense
God's calling you to, and thatmay be not just disciplined
attachment to where you aretoday, but it may be planning.
It may be some training goingto school today, but it may be
(30:45):
planning, it may be sometraining going to school.
It may take some time to havethis discipline detachment in
order to start moving towardswhat you're doing.
But I would definitely say andthis is from my own experience I
stepped out of ministry when Iwent through that challenge too
quickly.
I jumped out of it and I madesome kind of knee-jerk reactions
out of emotions that I wish Ihadn't, and that's where having
(31:07):
somebody walk along with you,whether it's a coach or a mentor
, so that you're doing it in awise way, discerning prayerfully
, I think is really crucial.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
Knowing self and where I'm prone to error, I
think, knowing your blind sides.
When I'm in stress, how am Igoing to respond?
Right, and I?
Here's my experience Every timeI've thought about making an
idea from a place of heavyemotion, intensity, saying doing
(31:40):
the thing, it just doesn't gowell, I need to step back, get
above, get to the balcony,whatever metaphor you want to
use, pursue peace, and claritycomes in the place of peace
rather than the place of anxiety, jack.
Anything more to say there?
Speaker 3 (31:55):
No, I agree with your comment.
I actually have a follow-upkind of question, because this
is out of selfishness, right,because of the ministry we serve
in.
So in our context, we arereally really high on the idea
that we want people to discovertheir calling and we're also
very passionate about our staff.
We have this phrase.
We say you're developers, notdoers, right.
(32:16):
So if we're hiring you on staffor hiring you to develop people
, that's your job, right.
So what would you recommend?
What would you say are some ofthe best resources if we want to
resource people really well todo that?
I'm kind of curious to knowyour take on maybe ways churches
have really programatized that,that idea of helping people to
(32:36):
understand what their calling isand then maybe equipping people
in leadership to kind of maybespeak calling into people based
on what we get to learn aboutthem in relationship.
Speaker 4 (32:47):
Yeah, I'd say that what we're starting to do here
in the southeastern district,this, this could, I think, be a
really powerful thing.
I mean, there's obviouslypreaching.
We can do teaching, bible studyaround vocation and calling
pour in give that framework.
Bible study around vocation andcalling pour in give that
(33:08):
framework.
I think there are great toolsthat we can utilize
CliftonStrengths, disc.
I use another one, kind of incharacter, because I think
character is really important.
Via, values in Action, is agreat one.
I know you've mentionedEnneagram.
There are a lot of great toolsto utilize.
The thing that we've been reallyworking hard here in the
Southeastern District and isreally kind of the vision of
what I'm hoping that weaccomplish with Called to Be is
(33:32):
we have been raising up allthese coaches throughout our
district.
So we've got, right now, 21certified coaches here in the
Southeastern District.
We've got another five we'regoing to be adding in the fall
and a lot of these coaches arenot just helping us in our work
we're doing in the district, butthey're taking these coaching
skills how to work with peoplepersonally and practically, not
(33:53):
wide but very narrow and deepwith people in this idea of who
are you, how have you beengifted.
How also, are you taking careof yourself Heart, soul, mind
and body, Good kind of practicesof self-care.
And now, with who you are andhow you've been gifted, where's
God put you?
What can you do with thosegifts to love and serve others
(34:15):
and walk along with people?
So for me, I think gettingpeople trained in the skills of
coaching to help people in thisvocational discernment and
gifting in life is probably oneof the biggest things that we
can do.
I mean we can preach and teachall day, like, for example,
years past.
You know we always wonder allthis training we've done on
evangelism and why it neverseems to move the needle of
(34:37):
people feeling comfortable goingout and sharing Jesus.
But boy, if you could take thattraining and partner with a
coach to help people personalizethis saying well, okay, what
does sharing Jesus look like ifI'm an introvert, not an
extrovert?
What does sharing Jesus looklike with the unique giftings
and in the unique places thatI've been, with the unique
people that I'm called to serveand think through and develop
(35:01):
more intentional strategies indoing this and then to walk with
them, to also help them maybeovercome that fear that they
have to do it in a way that theyfind the boldness and the
strength of Christ, and that'snatural to them.
I think that that would reallymove the needle quite a bit on
all this.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
I was just thinking to myself and I don't know how
practical you think this is, butyou know, like, say to a large
church ministry, what if achurch made a commitment that
everyone serving in a pastoraland a director type role was
actually certified as a coach?
Amen Went through like a formalcoaching curriculum, how
powerful would that be, you know?
Yeah, it's just like I like toideate on things like that.
(35:42):
I don't know, what do you think?
Do you think that's alogistically feasible thing for
a church to do?
Speaker 4 (35:46):
Well, and that's part of what we're getting ready to
try to do with Called to Be iswe are right now.
So I did my, my dissertationproject where we did this in a
local area with some churcheshere in Richmond, had a number
of individuals who went throughsome workshops and then we took
some of them and coached themand we really saw the real
positive impact of not just thisworkshop on calling and
(36:10):
vocation, but let's coach peopleintentionally on it.
It really moved the needle forthem.
So what we're looking at now isfinding about five
congregations to beta test thisin, to share this called the
vocational framework that wehave of identity, empowerment
and impact.
And now let's train in.
What we're envisioning is thisidea of Barnabas coaches, so the
(36:32):
sons and daughters ofencouragement, similar to how
Barnabas was with Paul in himstepping into his calling in
life.
If we could train theseindividuals with some basic
coaching skills in a localcongregation maybe similar to
like Stephen Ministry, you knowso for Stephen Ministry having
those people who are trained tobe caregivers in a congregation
(36:52):
to help people find healing andlet them know they're not alone.
If we could do that withcoaching skills to help people
discern and live out theircalling and walk along with them
.
I think that would betransformative for the local
church.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
What do you say to someone?
I've heard the argument againstcoaching.
Now, I've been trained incoaching and getting my ICF
certification here later thisyear, starting in the fall
actually, and I'm about half theway there with some coaching
that our district provided, orcoach training that our district
provided for me, and I'm abouthalf the way there with some
coaching that our districtprovided, or coach training that
our district provided for me,and I'm currently coaching about
five pastors and that's aboutit for me, that rhythm once a
(37:31):
month, kind of connecting andtracking along and getting to
document their self-discovery,their Holy Spirit inspired
discovery, and it's just, it's abeautiful thing.
But I've heard some maybetheologians argue against
coaching.
Like where's coaching in theBible?
Shouldn't we use something morecommensurate with mentorship or
discipleship?
(37:53):
Uh, coaching coaching kind ofputs one person as the, the, the
learned person, and maybe canin turn like lower the.
I'm just giving you thearguments.
I don't agree with it.
I think there's definitely aplace in the church for coaching
, but what do you say to someonewho makes a theological
argument against it?
Travis?
Speaker 4 (38:08):
Yeah, I would say.
First of all, coaching is amindset and a skill set that
obviously got developed outsideof the church.
So I think we just need toacknowledge that.
But also, counseling was too.
You know, it didn't originate.
I think these are here's where Ithink Luther's teaching on
vocation comes in.
(38:29):
All callings can be holycallings.
They also can be unholy too ifwe're not loving and serving
neighbor with our callings.
But every calling has value andGod can work through them.
So in the first article Senseof the World, these are still
God's good gifts and thesethings have been developed and
(38:49):
we can utilize them to love andserve others.
Now, coaching is notdiscipleship, but there's a lot
of tools that we can use fordiscipleship Preaching, teaching
, mentoring can be.
I mean, I 100% think thatespecially kind of in formation
and helping have somebody walkalong as a role model.
But where I think coaching isunique for mentoring is
(39:12):
mentoring is more like be likeme and let me learn you.
Coaching is not a pouring in,it's a pulling out process, it's
walking along with peoplesimply.
Really, at the end of the day,coaching is just serving as a
creative think partner.
You're thinking and prayingabout stuff.
I'm going to use these skills oflistening and active list or
act or asking powerful questionsand other tools that I bring to
(39:35):
just help you think deeper,deepen that awareness of who are
you, how have you been gifted,what's the opportunities around
you, what are the challenges,help you think through, how are
you going to overcome those andaddress them and move forward,
even with obstacles, with thebest that God's given to you,
and then to further the actionof just now to step out more
(39:56):
intentionally in those things.
So, yes, it's not biblical,you're not going to find a coach
in the Bible, but there is thisidea of calling and vocation
and where I see that coachingfits the best is within that
framework of vocation, helpingpeople discern and live out
their calling, and it's a greattool in the tool belt to be able
(40:20):
to bring along with alsocounseling, mentoring and other
skills that we find out therethat, yes, they're.
They're not maybe found in theBible, but they're part of God's
good gifting in the firstarticle, order of creation.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
Good, it's a great, great response.
Hey, let's close ourconversation talking about
wellness.
Ministry is hard.
Life can be very hard andanxiety and heart, body, mind,
spirit, soul care.
We can be human doings ratherthan human beings.
You know so what?
What is it about wellness thatyou're trying to work toward in
your, in your district, and feelfree to use?
I like your empowerment plan.
(40:56):
You can use that as a paradigm.
This is from your called to be.
We talk strength, heart, mind,soul, with the cross at the
center.
Let's talk wellness.
What are we getting after there, Travis?
Speaker 4 (41:07):
Yeah, it's this idea that you know, I think one of
the things, especially for ourchurch workers we've been trying
to help with the district, Oneof the things especially for our
church workers we've beentrying to help with the district
and this would be for allpeople is that self-care is not
a selfish act.
You know, when you're on anairplane and the oxygen masks
come down and they say, put iton, what do they tell you to do?
(41:29):
Put it on yourself first beforeyou put it on a neighbor,
because if you pass out youcan't help anybody.
So take care of yourself firstand then you can help somebody
else.
So we really need to prioritizethat.
You know, I think it'sespecially for our church
workers.
It's very easy to justify nottaking care of yourself, not
exercising.
I mean, I had a first pastor Iserved with who he was like in
(41:53):
his late 40s, early 50s, but helooked like he was late 70s,
never exercised, always huffingup, puffing up the stairs.
The only liquids he ever drankwas coffee or wine.
I don't think he ever drankwater and and it impacted him
because he was always tired andhe wasn't able to show up at his
best in his callings or for hisfamily.
(42:14):
There's a great quote and thisis something I love.
This is from ConcerningChristian Liberty, martin Luther
.
He says it is the part of theChristian to take care of his
own body for the very purposethat by the soundness and
well-being he may be enabled tolabor and to acquire and
preserve prosperity for the aidof those who are in want.
(42:37):
That thus the stronger membermay serve the weaker member and
we may be children of God,thoughtful and busy for one
another, bearing one another'sburdens and so fulfilling the
law of Christ.
That here even Luther puts thisidea of self-care, taking care
of ourselves, within this ideaof calling and vocation, so we,
(42:58):
the stronger parts, can care forthe weaker parts.
And that's really what it'sabout making sure we're caring
for ourselves, heart, soul, mindand body.
I know in the Lutheran circleswe've got the wellness wheel.
There's some other thingsfinancial wellness, vocational
wellness, intellectual wellness,whatever framework you want to
use.
It's making sure that you'recaring for yourself, the whole
(43:18):
self, so that you can show up atyour best in your calling.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
Why do you think talking about this has become?
I think it's a little too taboofor us and actually and maybe
this is the role of a coach toois to just ask questions about
hey, talk to me about yourmorning, what are you doing
before you show up to work?
Hey, talk to me about yourevening, what are you doing
before you go to bed?
And I think there can be someshame on either end of those.
(43:47):
And this is our identity, andJesus doesn't allow us to stay
in shame.
He calls us up into being whoGod has made us to be.
And we talk a lot, jack, aboutjust 1% better.
Is there just one thing youcould do that replaces?
Because there's a lot ofpsychology around this.
It can't just be about deletion, it's got to be about
(44:08):
replacement.
So, replacing that drink, orreplacing that coffee with water
, replacing sitting with walking, replacing walking with jogging
, replacing body weight workwith a little bit of resistance
training.
As it relates to wellness tooand I listen to a lot of
(44:31):
wellness podcasts especially asit relates to what we eat, what
we drink, how we move, how wemove our bodies.
I think if I could snap myfinger and change the narrative
around a body image.
It would be to replace weightmanagement I have to lose X
amount of weight with.
I want to gain X amount ofmuscle I want to.
(44:53):
I want to look at my body massindex, my.
My goal over over my sabbaticalthis is one of my last podcasts
before my sabbatical.
This will be released longafter actually I've gotten back
but is to get stronger and tomeasure body mass index and to
be able to do X amount morepull-ups, x amount more weight
with squats and I'm not a heavyweight guy.
(45:14):
But I think I think we need totalk more about resistance
training for for the worker.
And it starts small, it startswith body, but then all of the
details.
This is one of the funny, funnyquotes.
Well, I think it's a funnypiece of research.
If you want to look at alongevity factor, you look at
the circumference of a person'sthis is going to sound too much
(45:35):
information but their thighs.
How thick is a person's thighs?
Because that's going to be anindicator.
How well are you going to beable to resist that fall?
Whatever it is?
It's going to potentially takeyou out as you age.
I want to have maximum amount ofenergy for all of the years.
I know I'm going to die at 75to 95, probably somewhere in
(45:56):
there, right, unless somesomething goofy kind of goes on
between now, now and then.
But that gives me.
I'm thinking I got 35, 40 moreyears of kingdom production and
pouring into other people's lifeand I want to be able to be
well.
I don't want to.
I don't want to hurt when Ishow up, because if my body
doesn't feel good I can't showup for other people, and I think
(46:19):
we just need to talk way moreabout weight not weight but
muscle mass.
And I know this sounds likeit's not a spiritual thing.
For me it's a very spiritualthing because my body is a
temple to the Holy Spirit.
Travis.
Any thoughts there?
Speaker 4 (46:33):
Yeah, first of all, I think it's sometimes it's not
always the big things, it's theHoly Spirit Travis.
Any thoughts there?
Yeah, first of all, I thinkit's sometimes it's not always
the big things, it's the smallthings.
It's kind of like that moviewhat About Bob?
You know, it's like babystepping out the doors.
What is the smallest thing youcan do that you could change?
That's going to have thegreatest impact, and start there
and start with things you liketo do With that.
I also think that it's thisidea of.
(46:57):
There was a book a number ofyears ago called Change or Die,
and they started off with astudy the percentage of those
where the doctor says changeyour habits or you're going to
die.
90% of the people didn't changetheir habits.
Fear is never going to work.
What we've got to help peopledo is imagine the future of what
their wellness goal looks likeand tap into the reasons why
(47:21):
it's important, like I wascoaching somebody not too long
ago where the reason why hewanted to be healthy is so when
he's older he could play aroundwith the grandkids and roll on
the floor, and for him to beable to do that, he had to take
care of his body, and so westarted developing this plan
with this vision for hiswellness in the future, why it
(47:41):
was important to him, and thenjust starting to look at the
smallest changes he could make,and then to have somebody who
walks along with you, who caninspire hope that change is
possible, to help keep youaccountable.
I mean that's, you know, whenpeople make new year's
resolutions, you know it's acouple of weeks later and
they've fallen off the wagon.
It's because somebody is notwalking along with you,
encouraging and supporting youin that, because it takes about
(48:04):
66 days for a new action to turninto a habit in your life,
where then it becomesself-sustaining.
So you got to get people pastthat first couple of months to
be able to do that.
Where it's ingrained in ourbrain.
We've rewired our brain andthen tap it into reward.
You know celebrating smallvictories.
(48:24):
You know, break it down intobite sized parts.
That's kind of like that book.
You, though who is going to be?
You know this non-judgment zone.
Listen, I just care about you.
I care about your health, yourwellness, your goals, god
(48:45):
wanting to use you, and I'm hereto help serve you, and let's
just figure out how to do this.
Speaker 2 (48:50):
Wouldn't the world be a much better place if
everybody had a friend like that.
Speaker 4 (48:52):
Yeah, amen.
Speaker 2 (48:54):
You know we need one another desperately.
This thing called the humanexperience is not for the faint
of heart, and so do not go it,do not go it alone, and we get
to be a part of the greatestmission movement of all times.
If you're looking for a why,you know it's bringing light and
love out into a dark and dyingworld.
You know, and I think, findingthat, finding that bigger, it
(49:15):
could be a bigger wire.
It could be a very simple whyfor taking care of our bodies,
and for me, it's exactly that Idid.
My daughter just celebrated hergraduation last night.
We had 70 people over.
It was like a small littlewedding, you know, and and
getting to pray over her, it wasjust a sweet moment and getting
getting to dream about Lord,the young man that loves you,
(49:37):
that's going to come into herlife in the future.
And they get to have, like Iwant to be around for my, my, my
dad won the proverbial lotterybecause, all of well, all but
three of his grandkids werethere last night and he has 16
and 13, ranging in ages fromfive months to now, my, my
daughter being the oldest.
Like that's a cool life and mydad is not not been perfect or
(50:01):
made the greatest.
You know all that kind of stuff, I see.
I see my dad as a human not,but I'm like man.
That's a preferred future.
Yeah, and I want to.
I want to be a part of it, formultiple generations to know and
they've done a great jobbecause all their kids know and
follow Jesus and are passing onthe faith how much better does
it get than that?
I want to be around.
I want to be around for that,travis.
(50:22):
Hey man, this has been great.
You're a gift to the body ofChrist.
Thank you for being a friend ofours here at the ULC and it's
an honor to promote what God is.
That's how God made me topromote.
Called to Be.
Speaker 4 (50:33):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
And who have you been called to be Great reads?
Very, very helpful.
If you don't have a coach,reach out Travis.
What's the best place to kindof go?
We have an LCMS kind ofcoaching network.
Throw out a few resources.
If people are like man, I'mlooking for a coach, travis.
Speaker 4 (50:50):
Yeah, first of all, if you have anything around
Called to Be to me at Travis at,called the number to the letter
B dot com.
I'm happy to chat with youthere.
If you more are Lutheran LCMScircles, reach out to me at T
Guzzi, t G U S E, at S E dotLCMS dot org.
We've got our SED coachingnetwork.
(51:10):
We've got great coaches who arelooking for people to coach.
We've got coach trainingavailable, and then there's the
Lutheran coaching network.
We've got great coaches who arelooking for people to coach.
We've got coach trainingavailable, and then there's the
Lutheran Coaching Network.
I can get you connected toScott Gress.
There's a lot of coachesnationally as well and they're
happy to serve you in whateveryou sense God's calling you to
in life.
Speaker 2 (51:27):
Amen Closing comment Jack.
Speaker 3 (51:29):
No, that's fantastic.
I think I'm really excited tosee this kind of initiative,
with coaching, you know, withinour Lutheran church body and I'm
really praying that it reallybears a lot of fruit for us and
I'm hopeful that it will.
Speaker 2 (51:44):
Hey, this is lead time.
I pray this conversation washelpful for you as you grow up
into Christ, who is your leader,your Lord, the lover of your
soul, who has beautiful thingsin store for you in this life
and in the life to come.
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
Thanks so much, Jack, ThanksTravis, God bless guys.
Speaker 4 (52:03):
Blessings.
Speaker 1 (52:03):
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(52:26):
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Thanks for listening and staytuned for next week's episode.
This is Lead Time.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Welcome to Lead Time.
Tim Allman here, jack Calbergin the house.
Life is good, jack.
Hey, you feeling good?
Speaker 3 (00:10):
Fantastic man.
It's a beautiful day here andlife is good.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
It really is.
May the joy of Jesus be withyou today, as you're buckled up
to learn with Travis Goosey.
Let me tell you a little bitabout him.
He's been a guest on Lead Timebefore in the past, but he's got
a new book, a couple books thatwe wanted to talk about today.
He's an International CoachesFederation Certified Life and
Executive Coach Gallup StrengthCoach In 2022,.
(00:37):
He completed his doctorate incoaching at Western Seminary in
Portland, oregon.
He serves in the SoutheasternDistrict of the LCMS as
Executive Director of Wellnessand Coaching.
We're going to be talking alittle bit about wellness, too
today.
Travis lives in Williamsburg,virginia, with his wife,
stephanie, and one son, kendall.
His passion is empoweringeveryday believers to discover
and live out their authenticcalling in Christ.
What a cool calling is that,travis?
(00:58):
You're loving life.
How are you doing, buddy?
Speaker 4 (00:59):
Yeah, doing good.
Actually, since that we'vemoved to Richmond Virginia, so
not too far away, but prettyclose.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Is that still in the same district, then yeah,
Southeastern District.
Speaker 4 (01:08):
Yeah, we moved our offices from the DC area down to
Richmond, and so I thought it'dbe a little better to be closer
to the office, cool.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Well, good stuff.
I'm sorry about that.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
Yeah, no, no, no, I think I led you the wrong way on
that, so my apologies.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
How's that move been for you?
Speaker 4 (01:23):
Good, good.
Yeah, it's helping me get upand down the district a little
bit more, and especially thatthe 64 going between Richmond
and Williamsburg they'reexpanding the freeway so it's
cutting off a little congestionin time off my travel.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
So yeah, I love Virginia.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
Yeah, beautiful, beautiful state.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
It is very pretty.
It's no wonder the foundersactually in our country chose
hey, let's chill here.
It is pretty spectacular, solet's get into calling.
Your book is all about calling.
If you don't know, one book iscalled who have you Been Called
to Be?
A Studying on Coaching andLuther's Teaching on Vocation,
and then his other kind ofseminal work is this book called
(02:04):
Called to Be?
And yeah, I love it.
Why is discovering and livingout one's authentic calling in
Christ so necessary and why isit so rare?
Travis, let's start there.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
Yeah, you know, I think that I mean this was
definitely as my first book,that's actually my dissertation
that who have you Been Called toBe, we got it published.
Really, seeing that forministry leaders and coaches and
for me it's just, I think that,similar to Luther's day, so
many believers don't realizethey have a calling.
(02:36):
I think they, if you were toask today and Barna has done
some research on this if you askpeople, hey, who has a calling?
Pastors, yeah, they've got acalling.
Church workers, worship leaders, sunday school teachers, they
have callings.
But if you ask somebody, doesan accountant have a calling?
Does a garbage collector have acalling?
(02:57):
Does somebody who works atMcDonald's have a calling?
I think most people would sayno, they don't.
Works at McDonald's have acalling?
I think most people would sayno, they don't.
And I think that was the beautyof Luther's teaching on vocation
is that no, it's not justchurch workers, priests, monks,
like back in their day it wasthe same thing, those people had
callings.
Everybody else just did stuff.
(03:17):
And from Luther's perspectiveit's no, every baptized believer
has a holy calling in life andit's not just what you do on
Sunday morning, but you has aholy calling in life, and it's
not just what you do on Sundaymorning, but you have a holy
calling in every aspect of yourlife and it's what God does in
and through that, to bring hisblessing and his provision that
we get to be part of God'skingdom even in the ordinary
(03:39):
things of life and his movingand working.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Let's get into that a little bit deeper.
His moving and working.
Let's get into that a littlebit deeper.
Luther, for those that don't.
I mean we talk vocation andLuther a lot here, but I don't
know that we always ground it inscripture.
So I'd love for you to justtake us.
Where did Luther ground hisunderstanding of the royal
priesthood?
Obviously we got first Peterright, but where did he ground
in other places this elevatedview of every baptized believer
(04:02):
called Travis?
Speaker 4 (04:04):
Yeah it.
You know, for Luther it reallycame down to.
You know the encouragement Paulhad.
You know, don't forget yourcalling.
You know that Paul would talkabout, and it was this idea that
you know, calling was somethingthat wasn't grounded so much in
what you did, but it was firstand foremost grounded in who we
(04:26):
are in Christ.
So it's that baptismal callingFirst.
Peter talks about that beingpart of that priesthood of all
believers.
But it also is that grounding inthat ultimate identity that
each and every one of us hasthrough faith in our baptism
that we're a child of God andbecause of that calling by grace
, through faith that we freelyreceive, then it begins in the
(04:50):
horizontal plane of life.
It begins to redefineeverything that we do, so
because of who we are in Christ,in that vertical relationship.
Then, all of a sudden, now, inall of our areas of
responsibility of life, again,it's not just stuff we do, but
now it takes on this holy natureto it.
And so one of the ideas I lovein doing some research around
(05:12):
Luther and his teaching is thisidea that we ascend in faith in
that vertical relationship, butnow we descend in love and
service to our neighbors and oureveryday callings of life, and
so it redefined what it is to bepart of the church.
It redefined what it is to be aparent, to go into your
workplace and have a holy senseof calling and just loving and
(05:34):
serving your neighbor and yourcommunity.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
So it starts with identity right, yes, absolutely.
You know, I've read a lot of,you know, Luther's writings and
that word, that's a common wordnow.
But then I don't.
You didn't hear it as much.
Right, you had to kind of inferokay, that's what we're getting
at, it's getting at thisidentity, that it's the who we
are statement.
That's right.
Right, that's not somethingthat we create for ourselves,
(05:57):
but something that is beingformed and molded onto us by God
.
Speaker 4 (06:01):
And gifted.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
And gifted as well, gifted to us by God.
So think about this, thinkabout how much people are
struggling with this issue ofidentity right now, and even in
the church, even in the church,I think people really struggle
with identity and I think we wethe wider, the broader church,
let's say, doesn't always havereally great language to talk
about that and reallynecessarily ground people in
(06:25):
identity as well as it could.
Speaker 4 (06:27):
Yeah, I think part of the problem is whether we're
taking an outside in or aninside out approach.
So I think a lot of times wehave tended to look to things
external for ourselves foridentity.
What I did in my job, and youknow so what job did I have, the
prestige that came from it, theaccolades or achievements I
(06:49):
make.
We tended to look at where welive, zip codes.
We tended to get identity fromfamily.
You know what family, whatnationality, what nation you
came from, all these differentkind of things externally.
But I think what the challengeis in our brokenness of our
society, which, let's just admitthat the further we get away
from the faith of our ancestors,the more that those things get
(07:14):
stripped away from us.
Also, when we suddenly strugglewith the breakdown of families,
we're losing a sense ofidentity there.
We're losing a sense ofconnection and nationality and
community.
We're losing a sense in thischanging workplace where
suddenly you didn't have one jobthat you had for your entire
life.
But now you know, I think, thatpeople on average in a lifetime
(07:37):
is going to go through seven,not just different jobs, but
careers and what's coming withAI in the next 10 years, entire
industries that are going to beautomated and no longer having
humans in the workforce.
Suddenly, all these things thatwe look to externally for
identity have been stripped away.
They're not solid, they don'tlast, and so it's causing us to
(08:00):
have to go inside to ask reallydeep questions who am I, what's
life about, what's my purpose,why am I here, and what
difference am I supposed to make?
And so I think we have anentire society that is longing
for this sense of identity,because there's no permanence in
the things that we used to lookto, and that's the wonderful
gift, I think, why the time isright to rediscover this
(08:23):
incredibly rich teaching of thescriptures and Luther had
rediscovered 500 years ago is no, there is an identity that we
have that is freely given inChrist, and it's that that
begins to then inform the restof not only who we are but what
life is about.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
If somebody wanted to go back to some of Luther's
original writings, what's a goodstarting point for people to
kind of see.
Speaker 4 (08:46):
Yeah, you know, one of the best books on it is
there's a book by Gustav WingrenLuther on Vocation.
Now it's kind of deep.
I mean I, like for my doctorwork, had to read through that
at least three different times,but it is really rich.
(09:07):
I would say that's a great workthere it is.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
Tim's got it on his bookshelf.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
Got at Work by Jean Edward Vieth is another
fantastic book, and actually itwas really an entry point for me
in a lot of this a number ofyears ago.
So those would be two that Iwould look to to really say, hey
, if you really want to take adeeper dive in this, those are
the two places to go.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Let's get into called to be.
I know this kind of piggybackson your dissertation work, but
how did it start and whatexactly is your aim?
I love your tagline how todiscover and live out your
calling in Christ.
I know it's just more of whatit is, but you've kind of
started this movement, if youwill, around the conversation of
identity, and I love it, Travis.
So tell the story of Call toPeace.
Speaker 4 (09:49):
Yeah, you know, it started about 18 years ago.
I was serving as a pastor myfirst call, pastoral call in
Southern California.
I had a rough ministryexperience and had to step out
for a season just to get somehealing.
Wasn't anything really morethan that but for my wife and I.
But what turned into thinkingit was going to be a short-term
(10:12):
stepping out turned into a yearand a half of being out of
ministry and honestly reallystruggling with my own personal
journey of who am I and what'slife about when I'm not a pastor
.
And I didn't realize how muchof my identity had got caught up
in that idea of being a pastor,the validation of who I was
(10:35):
from, what I did and thefeedback I got from others.
And when you were without thatfor any kind of season of time I
mean anybody who's unemployed,without a job I mean you wrestle
with these questions.
I think a lot of people alsowho retire wrestle with these
questions because so much oftheir identity was wrapped up in
their work for so many years.
Now, when you're retired, whoam I?
So it's a big struggle and Ireally was.
(10:58):
I mean probably some of thedeepest depression I ever had
and it really forced me to goback to OK, well, who am I?
It forced me to go back toJesus to rediscover your child
of God.
That's where your identity is.
And it was at that time that afew different things came about,
kind of all at once in my life.
I really kind of discoveredthis idea of Luther's teaching
(11:23):
on vocation through Jean EdwardV's book God at Work.
So I kind of got this idea thateverybody has a calling, not
just church workers.
Ok, that's, that's great tohear, and it's in who you are,
in Christ.
At the same time, I discovereda new assessment tool that was
just coming out through a churchmosaic in LA.
They had a leadershipdevelopment process and they
(11:45):
were using Strengths Fighter, ornow CliftonStrengths has been
rebranded by Gallup a few yearsago and suddenly I had words and
articulation for things Ialways knew about myself as part
of God's gifting and design inmy life that I just didn't have
before.
And it was just these ahamoments.
I suddenly understood why itwasn't this square peg trying to
(12:05):
be put in the round hole ofpastoral ministry.
Why was it?
I enjoyed talking to Muslimsmore than doing hospital visits.
Why was I entrepreneurialrather than just shepherding and
caring for people and it gaveme that understanding.
This is how God designed,gifted me and wired me that way.
And then the third thing is,through that assessment, through
Gallup and some other things, Icame to discover this field of
(12:27):
coaching a way to help people,not pour into people, but to
help people discern and pull outin their life this idea of
identity, purpose, gifting,meaning, and found a way to
disciple people in a personaland practical way that I didn't
have before.
I mean, I always felt as apastor it was like this shotgun
(12:48):
approach, preaching and teachingand just hope that it hit
somebody.
But I discovered this personalway that I could, like laser
focus in with people, to havethese deep conversations which
really are about calling andvocation and life in a way that
I didn't have, that was personaland practical for people.
(13:08):
And it was kind of this timewhere all these things came
together that it helped me in mylife, that I saw man, what a
great way to be able to walkalong and help people in
discovering and living out theircalling as well.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Travis, congratulations, you won.
I mean the Holy Spirit wonthrough you, because it's really
easy to give up and to say I'mmoving on.
God, your call, in somerespects, as you've abandoned me
, and to live a green with Job'swife right, curse God and die.
(13:45):
Why does this have to happen tome?
But to trust in a God who isgoing to lead you through the
valley of the shadow of deathand you're gonna survive and
you're gonna thrive.
On the other side there's a lotof leaders, travis, who don't
make it, who give up.
So if this is you and you feellike you're stuck, you've given
(14:06):
up that God doesn't have amission, purpose, plan and
calling upon your life.
I pray this podcast would be acatalyst to keep moving, keep
trusting, keep trying, keepbuilding, keep failing and keep
getting back up again, becauselife is really, really hard and,
apart from the calling that wehave in our baptism in Christ
(14:27):
and the hope that we have in thefuture, because Christ is going
to return to raise the dead andmake all things new, that
future hope is what catalyzes usfor love and good deeds.
In the present moment, we getto be about the greatest love
story of all time bringing loveto those who feel unlovable, and
to identify and to confess.
There are moments and there areparts about me this is what I
(14:49):
love about Strength Finders thatI don't find lovable, and if
I'm living according to those,if I'm kind of beating the drum
to a different beat than how Godhas hardwired me to live, oh,
my goodness, it's going to beunfortunate.
Our team has just actually beenwalking through Strength
Finders.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
And team assessment and team assessment With a
facilitator and everything itwas fantastic.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Seeing some of our trends as a team.
It's been very, very helpful.
Oh, that's why you're the wayyou are and that's why, when
you're doing something that isnot in your natural gifting, you
get frustrated, you get angry,you know.
And so how do we help peoplelive according?
Speaker 4 (15:33):
to how God has hardwired them to live Anything
more to say, travis, to whatSpring Fire has meant to you.
Yeah, I'll tell you, it just isreally honoring God's
workmanship in a person.
I mean to be able to say, hey,this is what I and I think
that's a beautiful thing is.
It gives you permission ofknowing, hey, this is who God's
wired me to be.
And it's not that we can't dostuff we're not gifted in.
But, as you talked about, youknow, you sometimes wonder why
(15:53):
you don't do it as well.
It takes more time, it takesmore energy and you get
frustrated.
But boy, it sure is a nicepermission to be able to say you
know what, this is what I'mgood at.
Let me figure out how to putmore of my time kind of do like
job sculpting.
Let me get more focused on whatI do well, so that I can be
that blessing that God intendedme and make that impact I'm
(16:14):
supposed to, and to be able tosay you know what?
I'm not as gifted at that, andeither I've got to find some
ways to kind of manage that, getthat off my plate, or to be
able to partner with people whohave complimentary giftings to
me.
And then this idea of the powerof two that you know we're
better together than we are byourselves.
(16:34):
When I'm doing what I do wellin my strength zone and
somebody's working in theirstrength zone, that happens to
be my stress zone, and yet we'reworking together.
We get more accomplished thanwe can by ourself.
And Tim, I did want to say oneother thing.
You talked about thatencouragement to people going
through difficulties.
You know, for me I really sawwhat I went through as a
crucible moment.
I always believe there's amoment God saves us and there's
(16:56):
a moment God recreates us.
Sometimes that's one and thesame, sometimes they're
different moments of life.
And you know that moment whereyou've got nowhere else to go
but the cross of Jesus.
And the wonderful thing I lovethat Luther teaches is that when
we have those crosses of ourvocations and we fall at our
knee before the cross thatLuther talks about how he meets
(17:17):
us with his grace, with hispresence and with fresh
expressions of the spiritsmoving in our life, that God
recreates us and starts workingthrough us in new and powerful
ways.
And it's this idea that Goddoesn't just redeem us, but he
can even redeem the hardships,the mistakes no-transcript.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
It's back to Luther when he said you know, repent is
not a one time thing, it's anentire life of repentance.
Yeah, I think, I think you'reright.
I feel like every single daythere's a process where you know
we're being built intosomething different by God,
right, and that process neverstops until we die and then it
continues in the resurrection,right, amen you is in the
(18:06):
resurrection right, Amen.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Hey, for those that have not looked into.
Clifton Strength Finders foryour team.
What's the best place for themto go?
Find it Now before I let youkind of promoted it a little bit
.
I'm a promoter, so if you lookon the wheel fast-paced people
it's not going to surpriseanybody if they've listened to
me for a while.
I'm a promoter.
I love getting behind areaswhere God is at work and telling
stories and I'm a challenger.
(18:28):
Platforms, et cetera.
Yeah, Jack, you're definitely achallenger.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
I'm the kind of guy that says what do you mean by
that?
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Asking a lot of questions and what I like about
it is it says how are youadapting in the workplace and
are you adapting toward yourstrength or away from your
strength?
So one of the things just toassess for me.
I've had to adapt over time ina ministry that was financially
anxious.
I've had to adapt more into apersuader, so I crossed above
(18:59):
into fast task and that's notsustainable for me.
I need to live fast with peopleand then have people that are
fast with a task, like Jack, andso asking people for money is
not in my wheelhouse.
I can do it, but it really ishard for me and because I've
(19:21):
seen it actually hurtrelationship.
It's almost like inconsistentwith how God hardwired me and I
think sometimes people can evenlike see through.
This isn't your natural giftingto persuade me in this
direction.
And honestly, in a number oflike the controversial topics in
the LCMS that we've like talkedabout, I don't like hanging
there for very long, I can liketouch on it, but I just like to
(19:41):
promote the beauty and goodnessand wonder and awe and like the
new ideas that are that arecoming about.
Some of the ideas are great,some of them are not, and let's
assess it together.
I mean, that's how God kind ofhardwired me, but to like get
into a long form debate withsomeone to try to win an
argument feels like power andcontrol to me and that that
that's not how God has hardwiredme to live in that, in that, in
(20:03):
that space.
Anything more to say to thatJack and how we're assessing?
Speaker 3 (20:12):
Yeah, no, that's interesting Cause I kind of made
a connection as I was kind ofreflecting on myself.
I'm one of the very few peopleon our staff that has that more
of that challenger.
Uh, you know the uh, was it theeight on the Enneagram, kind of
kind of the on the wheel theycall it the conductor right and
kind of.
I made a connection thatactually my, my frankness is
kind of a spiritual gift that alot of people don't have, and
(20:36):
actually my love language isactually challenge, and so the
thing that people need to knowabout me is like that's actually
the way that I love people isthat I see their potential and I
just care so much about themthat I'm not willing to let
things go.
I want to speak to them abouthey, no, you can do this better.
Imagine how great it would beif you actually stepped up and
did this thing Right, and or,you know, if we all gathered
(20:59):
around this idea together Right.
So it's actually a, it'sactually a way that I love
people, and I think that's thekey thing is I have to keep
telling myself that and not letit ever kind of be an expression
of anger or frustration oranything like that, but just
really be like a love expressionto people.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Yeah, you're weird on our team and being slow or data
.
We don't have many folks thatare slow data and task and
that's probably okay.
Most of our team two thirds orthree fourths of our team are in
the quadrant that I'm in withtheir natural skills fast paced
people.
There also is some said I was Iwas hypothesizing if you're in
(21:39):
a different kind of churchthat's maybe a little older and
you're a soul pastor and yourdays look different than a lot
of our days.
You may be in the people butslower pace toward getting
things done.
You've adapted toward thatdirection.
Travis, how has God made youand when you were going through
that assessment, were you livinglike?
(22:00):
Were you having to adapt to dothings kind of like I was, that
weren't in your gifting?
Tell that story.
Speaker 4 (22:05):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
And again that goes back to, Ithink, that feeling of being a
square peg trying to be put in around hole, like.
One of the things that wasreally interesting was I had I
went through our North Americanmission track at the seminary.
So I mean, I've always beenoutreach, mission oriented and I
went through a behavioralassessment on my vicarage.
(22:26):
I was involved in a missionstart and they were talking to
me it's like, well, travis, whatdo you do?
Naturally, you know I'm talkingabout connecting with people
from all different culturalbackgrounds and social economic
backgrounds.
And they said, well, how do youdo that?
And I'm like I don't know, Ijust do it, it's just natural to
me.
And then a few years later Itook CliftonStrengths and
(22:48):
suddenly number one was Includer.
I'm always looking for peopleon the outside wanting to bring
them on the inside.
And then my number four isConnectedness, this unseen
spider webs of relationships andevents in life.
Everything's connected togetherand I think it's those two that
really are part of thatmissional gifting and impulse
that God gives where I'm able toconnect with people from so
(23:10):
many various backgrounds.
The other things about my topfive number two ideation.
I got more ideas than I knowwhat to do with.
They're not all good ideas, butI got ideas for you and
somewhere in there there's somenuggets Strategic number three,
(23:42):
no-transcript like she had a pinwanting to pop my idea bubbles
of the future and it was like,ah, this is just so beautiful.
She's a realist, yeah.
Well, so for her, her giftingsare like analytical,
deliberative discipline, harmony.
She always says my ideationdisrupts her harmony in life.
(24:03):
But what I've learned We'vealready decided this why are we?
Yeah, yeah, exactly Right.
But what we learned was what wethought were differences, and
this could be in marriage, thiscould be in the workplace.
We suddenly, throughCliftonStrengths, came to
realize it's how we're beingcomplementary to each other and
actually, where I'm strong,she's weak and vice versa.
(24:26):
She's not as gifted and yettogether.
And what I learned was to takemy ideas to her.
If she could pop it, I need togo back to the drawing board and
think some things through.
Or she started learning how toserve me by helping me refine my
ideas and think through myideas in more detail.
That I needed.
I mean, I'm the initialconceptual strategy guy.
Now say hey, hon, how do I makethis better and how do I make
(24:48):
sure I don't fail at this, andso that's how we started
realizing we work together andthat we need those kind of
people in our life to accomplishthe things that God's calling
us to.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Let's get into the details of your basic calling
model.
Speaker 4 (25:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
And why it's important to help people find
their calling sweet spot.
Talk about that, Travis.
Speaker 4 (25:06):
Yeah.
So it's this idea that if youwere to think of three circles
that overlap each other, one ofthem is how we have been gifted
in our strengths in life.
That's part of God'sworkmanship and design, and we
utilize some different tools.
Cliftonstrengths is one ofthose.
Disc is another one that can bevery helpful.
(25:28):
Myers-briggs I mean.
There's not one magicassessment to rule them all.
They all show different aspectsof ourselves, but we use some
tools to get into some of ourgifting in life.
Also our passions.
That's another circle.
What are the deep burdens inour life or the things that we
get super excited about?
Because that's the gas in thetank, not only for yourself, but
(25:51):
even Barna has found thatreally different initiatives to
serve communities.
About 70 percent of the timeare gathered around a common
passion in life.
So that's also going to bring agroup together.
And then the third it's notasking the question what does
the world need?
I think that's way too big, butI think a good question to ask
(26:12):
is who needs what I have tooffer?
And that really helps you honein on that calling sweet spot,
because not everybody needs whatyou have to offer, but there
are people who desperately needwhat you have to offer People
who, for them, what you offer inlife may be common around.
That common passion is exactlywhat they need to be able to
(26:35):
achieve what God's calling themto, and again, it's that
partnership together.
So it's, you know, we can dothings, but if it's not matched
by passion, well, that's notgoing to last very long.
We're going to get bored, we'regoing to not have the energy
for it.
Or if we have passion but wedon't have gifting, that's like
American Idol OK, you may have apassion for singing, but you
don't belong on a stage makingmoney at this and then finding
(26:58):
that third, you know who needswhat you, uniquely, can bless
them with.
And when you bring those threecircles together, that's your
calling sweet spot.
It's almost like when you'vebeen out golfing and you hear
that ping, where you just hitthat just dead on and that's
where you get that good hit.
That goes a long way versususually what I'm doing is I'm
(27:20):
either slicing or hooking to theleft or right and trying to
hunt for my ball.
You know we don't need to behunting for our ball, we want to
try to get that, that sweetspot.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
Yeah, so let's talk to maybe a younger leader who
feels like man, I'm doingsomething right now.
That is just not aligned.
I think an unwise thing is toimmediately quit that thing.
Speaker 4 (27:43):
Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
Right and I've interacted with young leaders
who make bad decisions to stopdoing what they're currently
doing in anticipation ofcreating the ideal and perfect.
Calling and I think themisnomer is like I'm going to
find this exactly perfect is soin our vocabulary today the
(28:07):
perfect.
There's no perfect, it's movingtoward the ideal.
In my estimation, it's actuallyalways being perfectly content
in my identity and then alwaysmoving, striving, pushing,
listening, being led into what?
That future, because I don'texactly know.
It's a sense of wonder and aweabout how God is kind of going
(28:29):
to unfold.
I do know that I've been calledto this place at this time and
for me as a pastor, I mean Iwouldn't do anything else.
I love telling people aboutJesus and being on team to see
lives transform, but likecreating the perfect environment
, like Jack, we're not evenclose to that right now.
We're always, we're alwaysmoving forward.
So what word of wisdom wouldyou give to that leader who
feels like they're not in theirsweet spot right now, but they
(28:51):
see it.
What, what's, what are words ofwisdom as they try to create by
the spirit's power thatpreferred future?
Speaker 4 (28:57):
Yeah, first of all, calling is not always about
future.
Calling is where you are today.
It's as far as your hands canreach and your eyes can see.
It's who God has put before you.
Those are the people you'vebeen called to.
So I think what it is is startwhere you're at today.
First of all, get an idea.
How have I been gifted soyou're knowing what you do well
(29:18):
and what you don't In that area?
If there are things that you'renot doing as well, who can you
partner with to do better?
Or how can you offload that?
And that takes some job,sculpting, that takes some time
to sometimes get there.
The other is how do you tapinto passion to get an idea of
what are the things that I'mreally passionate about?
And if you can't really getthat, maybe in one area, maybe
(29:41):
it's work.
Really get that, maybe in onearea, maybe it's work.
You know, find some other areaswhere you can tap into passions
in life so that you're getting achance to fuel yourself and
using your gifts in some otherareas.
It may be with your spouse, itmay be in doing some service in
the community, and then it'sreally just serving in all these
different stations.
You know Luther talks aboutthis idea of in the church, in
(30:01):
our workplace, in our family andin our community.
Take a look at who are thepeople that God has placed in
your life there and now say,okay, with my passions and my
gifting, who can I serve and inwhat way?
In my church, in my family, inmy workplace?
And then it's a matter of thenprayer.
Sometimes it's trial and error.
(30:22):
Having a coach with you kind ofhelps you discern that and walk
through that a little bit.
And then the last thing I wouldsay is you know, sometimes it
may take some work to get fromwhere you are to where you sense
God's calling you to, and thatmay be not just disciplined
attachment to where you aretoday, but it may be planning.
It may be some training goingto school today, but it may be
(30:45):
planning, it may be sometraining going to school.
It may take some time to havethis discipline detachment in
order to start moving towardswhat you're doing.
But I would definitely say andthis is from my own experience I
stepped out of ministry when Iwent through that challenge too
quickly.
I jumped out of it and I madesome kind of knee-jerk reactions
out of emotions that I wish Ihadn't, and that's where having
(31:07):
somebody walk along with you,whether it's a coach or a mentor
, so that you're doing it in awise way, discerning prayerfully
, I think is really crucial.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
Knowing self and where I'm prone to error, I
think, knowing your blind sides.
When I'm in stress, how am Igoing to respond?
Right, and I?
Here's my experience Every timeI've thought about making an
idea from a place of heavyemotion, intensity, saying doing
(31:40):
the thing, it just doesn't gowell, I need to step back, get
above, get to the balcony,whatever metaphor you want to
use, pursue peace, and claritycomes in the place of peace
rather than the place of anxiety, jack.
Anything more to say there?
Speaker 3 (31:55):
No, I agree with your comment.
I actually have a follow-upkind of question, because this
is out of selfishness, right,because of the ministry we serve
in.
So in our context, we arereally really high on the idea
that we want people to discovertheir calling and we're also
very passionate about our staff.
We have this phrase.
We say you're developers, notdoers, right.
(32:16):
So if we're hiring you on staffor hiring you to develop people
, that's your job, right.
So what would you recommend?
What would you say are some ofthe best resources if we want to
resource people really well todo that?
I'm kind of curious to knowyour take on maybe ways churches
have really programatized that,that idea of helping people to
(32:36):
understand what their calling isand then maybe equipping people
in leadership to kind of maybespeak calling into people based
on what we get to learn aboutthem in relationship.
Speaker 4 (32:47):
Yeah, I'd say that what we're starting to do here
in the southeastern district,this, this could, I think, be a
really powerful thing.
I mean, there's obviouslypreaching.
We can do teaching, bible studyaround vocation and calling
pour in give that framework.
Bible study around vocation andcalling pour in give that
(33:08):
framework.
I think there are great toolsthat we can utilize
CliftonStrengths, disc.
I use another one, kind of incharacter, because I think
character is really important.
Via, values in Action, is agreat one.
I know you've mentionedEnneagram.
There are a lot of great toolsto utilize.
The thing that we've been reallyworking hard here in the
Southeastern District and isreally kind of the vision of
what I'm hoping that weaccomplish with Called to Be is
(33:32):
we have been raising up allthese coaches throughout our
district.
So we've got, right now, 21certified coaches here in the
Southeastern District.
We've got another five we'regoing to be adding in the fall
and a lot of these coaches arenot just helping us in our work
we're doing in the district, butthey're taking these coaching
skills how to work with peoplepersonally and practically, not
(33:53):
wide but very narrow and deepwith people in this idea of who
are you, how have you beengifted.
How also, are you taking careof yourself Heart, soul, mind
and body, Good kind of practicesof self-care.
And now, with who you are andhow you've been gifted, where's
God put you?
What can you do with thosegifts to love and serve others
(34:15):
and walk along with people?
So for me, I think gettingpeople trained in the skills of
coaching to help people in thisvocational discernment and
gifting in life is probably oneof the biggest things that we
can do.
I mean we can preach and teachall day, like, for example,
years past.
You know we always wonder allthis training we've done on
evangelism and why it neverseems to move the needle of
(34:37):
people feeling comfortable goingout and sharing Jesus.
But boy, if you could take thattraining and partner with a
coach to help people personalizethis saying well, okay, what
does sharing Jesus look like ifI'm an introvert, not an
extrovert?
What does sharing Jesus looklike with the unique giftings
and in the unique places thatI've been, with the unique
people that I'm called to serveand think through and develop
(35:01):
more intentional strategies indoing this and then to walk with
them, to also help them maybeovercome that fear that they
have to do it in a way that theyfind the boldness and the
strength of Christ, and that'snatural to them.
I think that that would reallymove the needle quite a bit on
all this.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
I was just thinking to myself and I don't know how
practical you think this is, butyou know, like, say to a large
church ministry, what if achurch made a commitment that
everyone serving in a pastoraland a director type role was
actually certified as a coach?
Amen Went through like a formalcoaching curriculum, how
powerful would that be, you know?
Yeah, it's just like I like toideate on things like that.
(35:42):
I don't know, what do you think?
Do you think that's alogistically feasible thing for
a church to do?
Speaker 4 (35:46):
Well, and that's part of what we're getting ready to
try to do with Called to Be iswe are right now.
So I did my, my dissertationproject where we did this in a
local area with some churcheshere in Richmond, had a number
of individuals who went throughsome workshops and then we took
some of them and coached themand we really saw the real
positive impact of not just thisworkshop on calling and
(36:10):
vocation, but let's coach peopleintentionally on it.
It really moved the needle forthem.
So what we're looking at now isfinding about five
congregations to beta test thisin, to share this called the
vocational framework that wehave of identity, empowerment
and impact.
And now let's train in.
What we're envisioning is thisidea of Barnabas coaches, so the
(36:32):
sons and daughters ofencouragement, similar to how
Barnabas was with Paul in himstepping into his calling in
life.
If we could train theseindividuals with some basic
coaching skills in a localcongregation maybe similar to
like Stephen Ministry, you knowso for Stephen Ministry having
those people who are trained tobe caregivers in a congregation
(36:52):
to help people find healing andlet them know they're not alone.
If we could do that withcoaching skills to help people
discern and live out theircalling and walk along with them
.
I think that would betransformative for the local
church.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
What do you say to someone?
I've heard the argument againstcoaching.
Now, I've been trained incoaching and getting my ICF
certification here later thisyear, starting in the fall
actually, and I'm about half theway there with some coaching
that our district provided, orcoach training that our district
provided for me, and I'm abouthalf the way there with some
coaching that our districtprovided, or coach training that
our district provided for me,and I'm currently coaching about
five pastors and that's aboutit for me, that rhythm once a
(37:31):
month, kind of connecting andtracking along and getting to
document their self-discovery,their Holy Spirit inspired
discovery, and it's just, it's abeautiful thing.
But I've heard some maybetheologians argue against
coaching.
Like where's coaching in theBible?
Shouldn't we use something morecommensurate with mentorship or
discipleship?
(37:53):
Uh, coaching coaching kind ofputs one person as the, the, the
learned person, and maybe canin turn like lower the.
I'm just giving you thearguments.
I don't agree with it.
I think there's definitely aplace in the church for coaching
, but what do you say to someonewho makes a theological
argument against it?
Travis?
Speaker 4 (38:08):
Yeah, I would say.
First of all, coaching is amindset and a skill set that
obviously got developed outsideof the church.
So I think we just need toacknowledge that.
But also, counseling was too.
You know, it didn't originate.
I think these are here's where Ithink Luther's teaching on
vocation comes in.
(38:29):
All callings can be holycallings.
They also can be unholy too ifwe're not loving and serving
neighbor with our callings.
But every calling has value andGod can work through them.
So in the first article Senseof the World, these are still
God's good gifts and thesethings have been developed and
(38:49):
we can utilize them to love andserve others.
Now, coaching is notdiscipleship, but there's a lot
of tools that we can use fordiscipleship Preaching, teaching
, mentoring can be.
I mean, I 100% think thatespecially kind of in formation
and helping have somebody walkalong as a role model.
But where I think coaching isunique for mentoring is
(39:12):
mentoring is more like be likeme and let me learn you.
Coaching is not a pouring in,it's a pulling out process, it's
walking along with peoplesimply.
Really, at the end of the day,coaching is just serving as a
creative think partner.
You're thinking and prayingabout stuff.
I'm going to use these skills oflistening and active list or
act or asking powerful questionsand other tools that I bring to
(39:35):
just help you think deeper,deepen that awareness of who are
you, how have you been gifted,what's the opportunities around
you, what are the challenges,help you think through, how are
you going to overcome those andaddress them and move forward,
even with obstacles, with thebest that God's given to you,
and then to further the actionof just now to step out more
(39:56):
intentionally in those things.
So, yes, it's not biblical,you're not going to find a coach
in the Bible, but there is thisidea of calling and vocation
and where I see that coachingfits the best is within that
framework of vocation, helpingpeople discern and live out
their calling, and it's a greattool in the tool belt to be able
(40:20):
to bring along with alsocounseling, mentoring and other
skills that we find out therethat, yes, they're.
They're not maybe found in theBible, but they're part of God's
good gifting in the firstarticle, order of creation.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
Good, it's a great, great response.
Hey, let's close ourconversation talking about
wellness.
Ministry is hard.
Life can be very hard andanxiety and heart, body, mind,
spirit, soul care.
We can be human doings ratherthan human beings.
You know so what?
What is it about wellness thatyou're trying to work toward in
your, in your district, and feelfree to use?
I like your empowerment plan.
(40:56):
You can use that as a paradigm.
This is from your called to be.
We talk strength, heart, mind,soul, with the cross at the
center.
Let's talk wellness.
What are we getting after there, Travis?
Speaker 4 (41:07):
Yeah, it's this idea that you know, I think one of
the things, especially for ourchurch workers we've been trying
to help with the district, Oneof the things especially for our
church workers we've beentrying to help with the district
and this would be for allpeople is that self-care is not
a selfish act.
You know, when you're on anairplane and the oxygen masks
come down and they say, put iton, what do they tell you to do?
(41:29):
Put it on yourself first beforeyou put it on a neighbor,
because if you pass out youcan't help anybody.
So take care of yourself firstand then you can help somebody
else.
So we really need to prioritizethat.
You know, I think it'sespecially for our church
workers.
It's very easy to justify nottaking care of yourself, not
exercising.
I mean, I had a first pastor Iserved with who he was like in
(41:53):
his late 40s, early 50s, but helooked like he was late 70s,
never exercised, always huffingup, puffing up the stairs.
The only liquids he ever drankwas coffee or wine.
I don't think he ever drankwater and and it impacted him
because he was always tired andhe wasn't able to show up at his
best in his callings or for hisfamily.
(42:14):
There's a great quote and thisis something I love.
This is from ConcerningChristian Liberty, martin Luther
.
He says it is the part of theChristian to take care of his
own body for the very purposethat by the soundness and
well-being he may be enabled tolabor and to acquire and
preserve prosperity for the aidof those who are in want.
(42:37):
That thus the stronger membermay serve the weaker member and
we may be children of God,thoughtful and busy for one
another, bearing one another'sburdens and so fulfilling the
law of Christ.
That here even Luther puts thisidea of self-care, taking care
of ourselves, within this ideaof calling and vocation, so we,
(42:58):
the stronger parts, can care forthe weaker parts.
And that's really what it'sabout making sure we're caring
for ourselves, heart, soul, mindand body.
I know in the Lutheran circleswe've got the wellness wheel.
There's some other thingsfinancial wellness, vocational
wellness, intellectual wellness,whatever framework you want to
use.
It's making sure that you'recaring for yourself, the whole
(43:18):
self, so that you can show up atyour best in your calling.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
Why do you think talking about this has become?
I think it's a little too taboofor us and actually and maybe
this is the role of a coach toois to just ask questions about
hey, talk to me about yourmorning, what are you doing
before you show up to work?
Hey, talk to me about yourevening, what are you doing
before you go to bed?
And I think there can be someshame on either end of those.
(43:47):
And this is our identity, andJesus doesn't allow us to stay
in shame.
He calls us up into being whoGod has made us to be.
And we talk a lot, jack, aboutjust 1% better.
Is there just one thing youcould do that replaces?
Because there's a lot ofpsychology around this.
It can't just be about deletion, it's got to be about
(44:08):
replacement.
So, replacing that drink, orreplacing that coffee with water
, replacing sitting with walking, replacing walking with jogging
, replacing body weight workwith a little bit of resistance
training.
As it relates to wellness tooand I listen to a lot of
(44:31):
wellness podcasts especially asit relates to what we eat, what
we drink, how we move, how wemove our bodies.
I think if I could snap myfinger and change the narrative
around a body image.
It would be to replace weightmanagement I have to lose X
amount of weight with.
I want to gain X amount ofmuscle I want to.
(44:53):
I want to look at my body massindex, my.
My goal over over my sabbaticalthis is one of my last podcasts
before my sabbatical.
This will be released longafter actually I've gotten back
but is to get stronger and tomeasure body mass index and to
be able to do X amount morepull-ups, x amount more weight
with squats and I'm not a heavyweight guy.
(45:14):
But I think I think we need totalk more about resistance
training for for the worker.
And it starts small, it startswith body, but then all of the
details.
This is one of the funny, funnyquotes.
Well, I think it's a funnypiece of research.
If you want to look at alongevity factor, you look at
the circumference of a person'sthis is going to sound too much
(45:35):
information but their thighs.
How thick is a person's thighs?
Because that's going to be anindicator.
How well are you going to beable to resist that fall?
Whatever it is?
It's going to potentially takeyou out as you age.
I want to have maximum amount ofenergy for all of the years.
I know I'm going to die at 75to 95, probably somewhere in
(45:56):
there, right, unless somesomething goofy kind of goes on
between now, now and then.
But that gives me.
I'm thinking I got 35, 40 moreyears of kingdom production and
pouring into other people's lifeand I want to be able to be
well.
I don't want to.
I don't want to hurt when Ishow up, because if my body
doesn't feel good I can't showup for other people, and I think
(46:19):
we just need to talk way moreabout weight not weight but
muscle mass.
And I know this sounds likeit's not a spiritual thing.
For me it's a very spiritualthing because my body is a
temple to the Holy Spirit.
Travis.
Any thoughts there?
Speaker 4 (46:33):
Yeah, first of all, I think it's sometimes it's not
always the big things, it's theHoly Spirit Travis.
Any thoughts there?
Yeah, first of all, I thinkit's sometimes it's not always
the big things, it's the smallthings.
It's kind of like that moviewhat About Bob?
You know, it's like babystepping out the doors.
What is the smallest thing youcan do that you could change?
That's going to have thegreatest impact, and start there
and start with things you liketo do With that.
I also think that it's thisidea of.
(46:57):
There was a book a number ofyears ago called Change or Die,
and they started off with astudy the percentage of those
where the doctor says changeyour habits or you're going to
die.
90% of the people didn't changetheir habits.
Fear is never going to work.
What we've got to help peopledo is imagine the future of what
their wellness goal looks likeand tap into the reasons why
(47:21):
it's important, like I wascoaching somebody not too long
ago where the reason why hewanted to be healthy is so when
he's older he could play aroundwith the grandkids and roll on
the floor, and for him to beable to do that, he had to take
care of his body, and so westarted developing this plan
with this vision for hiswellness in the future, why it
(47:41):
was important to him, and thenjust starting to look at the
smallest changes he could make,and then to have somebody who
walks along with you, who caninspire hope that change is
possible, to help keep youaccountable.
I mean that's, you know, whenpeople make new year's
resolutions, you know it's acouple of weeks later and
they've fallen off the wagon.
It's because somebody is notwalking along with you,
encouraging and supporting youin that, because it takes about
(48:04):
66 days for a new action to turninto a habit in your life,
where then it becomesself-sustaining.
So you got to get people pastthat first couple of months to
be able to do that.
Where it's ingrained in ourbrain.
We've rewired our brain andthen tap it into reward.
You know celebrating smallvictories.
(48:24):
You know, break it down intobite sized parts.
That's kind of like that book.
You, though who is going to be?
You know this non-judgment zone.
Listen, I just care about you.
I care about your health, yourwellness, your goals, god
(48:45):
wanting to use you, and I'm hereto help serve you, and let's
just figure out how to do this.
Speaker 2 (48:50):
Wouldn't the world be a much better place if
everybody had a friend like that.
Speaker 4 (48:52):
Yeah, amen.
Speaker 2 (48:54):
You know we need one another desperately.
This thing called the humanexperience is not for the faint
of heart, and so do not go it,do not go it alone, and we get
to be a part of the greatestmission movement of all times.
If you're looking for a why,you know it's bringing light and
love out into a dark and dyingworld.
You know, and I think, findingthat, finding that bigger, it
(49:15):
could be a bigger wire.
It could be a very simple whyfor taking care of our bodies,
and for me, it's exactly that Idid.
My daughter just celebrated hergraduation last night.
We had 70 people over.
It was like a small littlewedding, you know, and and
getting to pray over her, it wasjust a sweet moment and getting
getting to dream about Lord,the young man that loves you,
(49:37):
that's going to come into herlife in the future.
And they get to have, like Iwant to be around for my, my, my
dad won the proverbial lotterybecause, all of well, all but
three of his grandkids werethere last night and he has 16
and 13, ranging in ages fromfive months to now, my, my
daughter being the oldest.
Like that's a cool life and mydad is not not been perfect or
(50:01):
made the greatest.
You know all that kind of stuff, I see.
I see my dad as a human not,but I'm like man.
That's a preferred future.
Yeah, and I want to.
I want to be a part of it, formultiple generations to know and
they've done a great jobbecause all their kids know and
follow Jesus and are passing onthe faith how much better does
it get than that?
I want to be around.
I want to be around for that,travis.
(50:22):
Hey man, this has been great.
You're a gift to the body ofChrist.
Thank you for being a friend ofours here at the ULC and it's
an honor to promote what God is.
That's how God made me topromote.
Called to Be.
Speaker 4 (50:33):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
And who have you been called to be Great reads?
Very, very helpful.
If you don't have a coach,reach out Travis.
What's the best place to kindof go?
We have an LCMS kind ofcoaching network.
Throw out a few resources.
If people are like man, I'mlooking for a coach, travis.
Speaker 4 (50:50):
Yeah, first of all, if you have anything around
Called to Be to me at Travis at,called the number to the letter
B dot com.
I'm happy to chat with youthere.
If you more are Lutheran LCMScircles, reach out to me at T
Guzzi, t G U S E, at S E dotLCMS dot org.
We've got our SED coachingnetwork.
(51:10):
We've got great coaches who arelooking for people to coach.
We've got coach trainingavailable, and then there's the
Lutheran coaching network.
We've got great coaches who arelooking for people to coach.
We've got coach trainingavailable, and then there's the
Lutheran Coaching Network.
I can get you connected toScott Gress.
There's a lot of coachesnationally as well and they're
happy to serve you in whateveryou sense God's calling you to
in life.
Speaker 2 (51:27):
Amen Closing comment Jack.
Speaker 3 (51:29):
No, that's fantastic.
I think I'm really excited tosee this kind of initiative,
with coaching, you know, withinour Lutheran church body and I'm
really praying that it reallybears a lot of fruit for us and
I'm hopeful that it will.
Speaker 2 (51:44):
Hey, this is lead time.
I pray this conversation washelpful for you as you grow up
into Christ, who is your leader,your Lord, the lover of your
soul, who has beautiful thingsin store for you in this life
and in the life to come.
It's a good day.
Go make it a great day.
Thanks so much, Jack, ThanksTravis, God bless guys.
Speaker 4 (52:03):
Blessings.
Speaker 1 (52:03):
You've been listening to Lead Time, a podcast of the
Unite Leadership Collective.
The ULC's mission is tocollaborate with the local
church to discover, develop anddeploy leaders through biblical
Lutheran doctrine and innovativemethods To partner with us in
this gospel message.
Subscribe to our channel, thengo to theuniteleadershiporg to
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(52:26):
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.