April 22, 2025 • 57 mins
What does it mean to be human in an age where technology increasingly blurs the lines between body and machine? Dr. John Pless, professor at Concordia Theological Seminary, tackles this question through the lens of Lutheran ethics.
• Lutheran ethics begins with our relationship to God, not merely descriptive or prescriptive approaches
• Transhumanism views the body as "an assemblage of replaceable parts," reflecting humanity's struggle with autonomy
• The Christian understanding of body and soul sees them as "knit together," not separate entities
• Christ's resurrection provides our model for embodied existence – physical yet transformed
• Christian ethics operates through "reciprocity" – we first receive from God, then give to others
• Luther's doctrine of vocation teaches we serve God by serving neighbors in ordinary places
• Christians can navigate AI and technology by maintaining their identity as embodied creatures
• Spiritual unity comes through prayer, meditation on God's Word, and facing trials together
• True human connection requires discernment that AI cannot replicate
Find peace, clarity, and companionship for your spiritual journey.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is Lead Time.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Welcome to Lead Time, tim Allman here.
Jack Kauberg is on a beachsomewhere in the Caribbean, my
normal co host and today I getto have on the podcast for the
second time Reverend Dr JohnPless, currently a professor at
Concordia Theological Seminaryin Fort Wayne, and he's got he
says he's semi-retired.
(00:25):
As you listen to his teachingload listener you're going to be
like that doesn't sound likesemi-retirement.
Dr Pless is getting on a littlebit later today.
He's got catechetics andtheological ethics.
Let's start with that, Dr Pless, before we get going.
How are you doing, brother?
Thanks for being on.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
I'm fine, thanks.
I am a modified service, as youmentioned, which normally means
two courses a quarter, but Ihad a colleague that had to be
away for some family issues andso I ended up kind of at last
minute taking on one of hiscourses as well.
But it's a full quarter.
But I enjoy it and glad to havethe opportunity to teach, to
(01:00):
have the opportunity to teach.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
And for those of you who are just listening, not
looking, in the background isall of Dr Pless's many, many
books, theological books mostly,that have shaped his, his
education.
You are yeah, you're very, verywell respected in the Lutheran
church, Missouri Synod and inLutheranism internationally, Dr
(01:25):
Pless.
So thank you again for the timehere.
Let's start.
You said you're teaching atheological ethics class.
What are you teaching there?
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Right.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
And even let's start out what's the Lutheran
understanding of ethics ingeneral?
I had a similar class with DrBierman 20-some years ago at the
seminary, so I know he's acolleague of yours as well.
So let's talk Lutheranism andethics, Dr Plass.
Start there.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
Well, that's a great question, because you know, to
state the obvious, there are allkinds of ethical systems out
there.
And you know, when I'mtraveling and somebody figures
out I'm a pastor, and they starttalking about, well, what do
you do?
And I tell, well, I teach at aseminary.
(02:08):
And sometimes you even have toclarify you know what a seminary
is.
But I teach future ministers.
Well, what do you teach?
And if I say catechetics, theyhave no idea what I'm talking
about.
You know, I thought you weretraining ministers, not
veterinarians or something youknow and or even pastoral
theology, and I kind ofexplained that a bit.
(02:30):
But if I say ethics, they arekind of right there with me.
Oh, yeah, I'm.
You know, I had to take acourse in pharmaceutical ethics
when I was in pharmacy school,or or we had to have a course in
business ethics as part of anMBA degree.
But you know, when outside thechurch and in many ways even
outside kind of the Lutheranchurch, when people think of
(02:53):
ethics, they basically think ofeither what we might call kind
of a descriptive ethics ethicdescribes what a moral or good
life looks like or aprescriptive ethic.
Here are the things that you'vegot to do if you're going to be
an ethical person, and I wouldsuggest that Lutheran ethics
(03:16):
starts from a very differentperspective.
It's not simply descriptive norprescriptive.
It has to do with our lifebefore God, who God has made us
to be as creator, what he hasdone to reclaim us, reconcile us
to himself in Christ and thenew life then that he gives in
(03:39):
by the Holy Spirit, that ourbodies might indeed be temples
of his presence in the world.
So while all other ethicalsystems basically start from
what I would call kind of ananthropological or human
being-centered you know way oftalking, Lutheran ethics
(04:01):
theological ethics at leaststarts from the perspective of
God, and so we talk about that,and you know that ethics is not
something that we're doing toachieve salvation.
So we spend a significant amountof time talking about
(04:21):
distinction betweenjustification and life, of
sanctification and how ethicsreally kind of comes at the
intersection of justificationand sanctification.
When we talk about life in theworld, we talk a lot about
Luther's understanding of thetwo governments or the two
kingdoms, and then a goodportion of the course is looking
(04:44):
at um, um ethics as it relatesto beginning of life, uh, to
marriage and to end of lifeissues and you know, those
horizons are always beingexpanded today, um with um,
developments in biomedicalethics and, uh, when I started
this course a couple of weeksago I just asked students to,
(05:07):
kind of popcorn style, give me a.
You know issues that are risingor have arisen that they think
would be ethical issues todayand it's interesting a lot of
stuff there related toartificial intelligence, that's
what I was going to ask yeah, AI, AI and the whole, sometimes
(05:28):
called transhumanism orpost-human futures.
You know, can you, you know,could you actually be human
without the body?
You know your mind being maybedownloaded into kind of a
software, things that reallykind of sound a little science
(05:49):
fiction-like maybe to us but areincreasingly becoming, you know
, in the realm of reality thereTime to be alive, dr Pless, the
rate of change, and with changealways comes ethical concerns.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Right, because we are as human beings, we're idol
making, our hearts are idolmaking factories and we're some
James K Smith teaching here.
Right, we are desiring thingsfirst and foremost and our
hearts are desiring, after thethings, of the world and its
wealth and power and positionand pleasure and kind of kind of
(06:29):
uh, aquinas's four, uh idolshave you?
Obviously you've heard 13, 14thcentury aquinas on on power and
pleasure and money and fame orhonor.
And and I think ai is, it's afascinating who's going to
leverage the controls around thefuture of AI, you know, and our
(06:51):
Christians, speaking to, hey,human beings created in the
image of God, who speak thewords of God, who care for
humans, who are aboutmultiplying humans, be fruitful
and multiply.
If we outsource to somethingother than God, we're going to
be up a creek without aproverbial paddle, right, and
fortunately for us as Christians, right, we know the end of the
(07:13):
story.
We know Jesus is coming back tomake all things new, new
heavens and new earth, and sothere's that, which is a very
significant that.
But, yeah, what are some ofyour biggest concerns as you
look at AI especially in lightof our desires as humans, dr
Pless.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Well, I think you know one of the real challenges
and it's kind of a perennialchallenge, I think with ethics,
and especially ethics since theEnlightenment has been the whole
conceptuality of autonomy, hasbeen the whole conceptuality of
autonomy From two Greek wordsautos, nomos, law unto oneself
(07:59):
and the thought that we couldsomehow kind of transcend all
creaturely limitations, that,rather than understanding
ourselves as creatures,creatures that have been endowed
with a particular dignity byour creator and, at the same
time, creatures who live withinfinite limitations, but
(08:20):
recognizing that our hope isfinally not in an escape from
the body but in the resurrectionof the body to a life
everlasting.
And I think AI is one moreattempt to kind of transcend our
creatureliness, so thatcertainly, as creatures, we do
(08:40):
have a calling to make things tocreate, have a calling to make
things to create, to be God's.
You know God's mask or God'scoverings, that he is doing a
particular work in the world butwe do that also with
recognition of our own limitswithin creation.
(09:02):
I think in some ways, you know,ai is another example of trying
to transcend that.
And then, in the whole, youknow the whole realm of ethics.
Today it is challenging becausewe do have technology that is
developing far faster than wehave time to engage in any kind
(09:23):
of moral or ethical reflection.
So some of the best writers inethics today I think of a
British American teaching inScotland, actually Brian Brock,
doing a lot of work on ethicsand technology, or here in this
country.
In this country Brent Watershas written a book on
(09:49):
transhumanism.
You know that the technologyhas simply developed tools and
capacities, but we as a people,and certainly we as church, have
really not had a chance to kindof catch up with what is
(10:09):
possible technologically, yeah,hey, for those that aren't maybe
aware, we have a very astutelistenership.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
But transhumanism, define transhumanism and its
effect on every human today.
And how could it leak into thechurch in some way, shape or
form into our world asChristians, creatures in God's
creation?
So talk about transhumanism,just with a little bit more
depth, dr Pless.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
Yeah, sure, I think that term, as it's been used
today, certainly by people likeBrent Waters, refers to this
kind of trajectory that sees thehuman body as kind of an
assemblage of replaceable parts.
And I mean, you know, certainlywe think of organ transplants
(10:59):
and we think of all the goodthat's done, can be done, you
know, by transplant of organs.
But he also notes there's kindof a dark side there, and one of
the dark sides is that it seesthe body as just kind of like
you know, your car Transmissionshoots out, you go get a new
transmission, that if airconditioner, you know, breaks
(11:24):
down, get a new air conditionerin the car, and that the body
then is seen as kind of thisassemblage of parts.
And then the worry that theethicists have is you know where
does this start?
Could a body simply be kind ofretooled over and over again so
that there would finally be nocontinuity with the body that
(11:48):
you had at conception or atbirth, and in that way you would
transcend being a creature, youwould really transcend being
human Kind of you know, fears ofeven what you know the author
of Frankenstein kind of fearedback in the 19th century that
(12:13):
you would have, you would createsomething that would really be
a monster, would no longer behuman.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Here, you know you have shades also of Cs lewis.
Abolition of man yeah, well,we've seen the impact in the
last few years in the lgbtq plussexuality, right, and I mean
that's.
And then the barbarism, thebutchery in that industry as it
relates toward, like, thereneeds to be people going to jail
because of allowing youngpeople, apart from parental
(12:49):
consent, to make big barbarous.
I mean, it is Frankenstein typechanges to their body because
they don't feel like they're agirl or they're a boy, right,
and then you've got a culturethat's creating all of these.
Just, it's confusion, and theheart of this, dr Pless, is
obvious for those of us who havestudied and looked at history.
(13:10):
It's obviously justrepristination of Gnosticism and
platonic thought that the bodydoesn't matter, right.
And I can conceptualize who I am.
No, no, no.
God gets to be and this is whythe question has God gets to
tell me who I am and he doesn'tmake mistakes.
You are created fearfully andwonderfully, male and female.
It's wild to me, Dr Pless, asapastor, I have to make a
(13:30):
statement like that from thepulpit and it's seen kind of as
a political statement like giveme a break, this is the heart of
our creator, how he's made us.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
Yeah, this is not simply a political issue.
The question is, you know, do wecontinue to understand
ourselves as creatures and Ipurposefully here use the word
creature, because you can't havea creature without a creator
and so we acknowledge a creator.
You know, very simply, you knowthe language of Luther's
(14:00):
catechism, small catechism.
I believe that God has made me,it's very personal.
He has made me, given me bodyand soul, you know eyes, ears,
reason, all my members and soforth, and we move away, our
culture has moved away from anunderstanding of being creature,
(14:21):
hence transhumanism to now I'mgoing to be my own creator, and
if I don't like the body thatI've been given in this case, as
you mentioned here, kind ofsexually, then I'm free to
choose my own gender, I'm freeto remake myself and then, when
my body doesn't work very wellanymore, I'm free to end it.
(14:42):
Medical assistance in dying,physician-assisted suicide, are,
you know, big now?
Big issues, but it all comes tokind of a disdain for the body
and seeing the body as simplykind of a disposable carriage
for the all-powerful human will.
And so, rather than, you know,being able to receive with
(15:12):
thanksgiving the body that Godhas given me, now it's my will.
That's going to determine whatI look like, what I do, how I
perform.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
The Bible uses the word soul quite a bit, yeah, and
how are we rightly, asChristian Lutherans, to
understand the soul as adifferentiator for all humans,
created in the image of God?
Talk about that a little, drPless.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
Yeah, well, you know we as biblical Christians we
have a different understandingof soul from what you would have
in you mentioned.
You know, kind of platonic Greek, dualistic body and soul.
You know, like the body is justkind of a container for the
soul, but in scripture body andsoul are really used, the
(16:07):
language from Psalm knittogether.
You know that I can't imaginewhat my soul looks apart from my
body and my.
You know we are embodied humanbeings, body and soul, body and
soul together.
And on the last day God willraise not only our souls, giving
(16:29):
us eternal life, but body andsoul together will, like our
Lord Jesus Christ, have life inGod's kingdom, his creation, his
new creation, his creation, hisnew creation.
And so the soul is not justkind of a life force or a spark
(16:50):
of divine energy that liveswithin you and someday will,
like a bird being set free froma cage, you know, fly away.
Your soul has to do with yourbeing made in God's image and
having the capacity to relate toGod, to answer him and
(17:11):
acknowledge him as your creator.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
So good.
This was probably going to bereleased in the Easter season,
dr Pless, and did some work.
I'm resisting the temptation togo down the Shroud of Turin
little pathway right now.
There's some fantastic researchbeing done on the Shroud and
science converging that.
I believe it's the burial clothof Jesus and the flashpoint of
(17:37):
a whole bunch of protons andneutrons, a flashpoint of light
in the resurrection moment.
That's just my belief.
I don't need it to be true toknow that Jesus has been bodily
raised from the dead.
But you see Paul in 1Corinthians 15 saying what was
created, a physical body wasraised like Christ, a spiritual
(17:57):
body.
How are we to understand thatspiritual body, the resurrected
body as Christ was?
So will we be on that last day?
Because I think a lot of timeswhen people hear spiritual they
think non-physical.
Could you get behind that wordin 1 Corinthians 15 a little, dr
Pless?
Speaker 3 (18:14):
Yeah, I think there the spiritual body is the body
that is raised by the Lord andgiver of life, the Holy Spirit.
And you know Jesus who?
Or as Son of God, of course hepossessed the Spirit from all
eternity, but as man he wasconceived by the Holy Spirit.
(18:40):
You know virgin birth.
He was anointed with the Spirit.
At his baptism resurrection,his body, his very physical body
, still bearing the marks ofnail and spear, will have the
(19:03):
life of the Spirit forever.
And when you look at, you know,when you look at the
resurrection accounts of theLord Jesus in the New Testament,
jesus does with his body afterthe resurrection what none of us
can do with our bodies.
And you know reason will saywell, how can you do that?
(19:24):
Body is a physical.
If it's a body, it has to be aphysical object one place, one
time.
Well, jesus is Lord and he isnot subject to the laws of
physics.
So he can do with his body nowas he wills.
You know he can pass throughdoors and yet he can also have
breakfast of fish and it's inhis body that he fills all
(19:49):
things.
And of course in our Lutheranchurch that's very important
when it comes to the Doctrine ofthe Lord's Supper, that the
ascension is not Jesus simplygoing up to the 34th floor and
waiting to the last day, but, asPaul says in Ephesians, he
bodily ascends, that he mightfill all things, and so he's
(20:10):
able to be with us with his bodyand his blood under bread and
wine in the sacrament of thealtar.
That's so.
And that really, you know, whenwe talk about body, and this has
all kinds of implications forethics, one of the key texts of
(20:30):
course I use when teachingtheological ethics is a passage
that I think all of us areprobably familiar with Romans
12,.
1 to 2,.
Present your bodies as livingsacrifice, and we do that by the
mercies of God.
So this is not a work ofoffering that we're doing to
merit God's favor, merit God'sgrace, but in light of God's
(20:54):
mercy we now present our bodiesas living sacrifice.
And then Paul goes on to unpackthat Don't let.
My favorite kind of paraphraseof that is from JB Phillips,
paraphrase that he did in theNew Testament back after the war
, second World War, where heparaphrases Romans 12.2,.
(21:17):
Don't let the world squeeze youinto its own mold, but rather
be renewed from the inside out.
So again, the internal.
You know who you are inside out, but express bodily, and when
that word body, soma, is usedthere, the body is the way that
(21:38):
you are present to the world.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
How else would I be.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
Yeah, yeah, I can't.
You know, I can't be simplyspiritually present, I have to
be embodied.
And when we speak of Christbeing bodily present in the
sacrament, this is it.
When we speak of Christ beingbodily present in the sacrament,
this is it.
It's the real Jesus, the onewho was crucified and raised.
He's now giving us the fruitsof that redemption with his body
(22:02):
and blood.
And then the turn, I think, forethics, is that just as God
gives himself to us, socompletely now we give ourselves
to the life of the neighbor inlove.
In fact, this is exactly kindof how Luther interprets the
sacrament, as God's self-givingGod giving us Christ's body and
(22:27):
blood.
And then the liturgy.
After the liturgy, as oneperson has put it, or the
worship that takes place afterthe benediction, is what happens
in daily life, as you areliving a life turned inside out
to love the neighbor.
And when you look at the restof Romans 12, the rest of Romans
12 is exactly about the veryconcrete shape that the
Christian life takes practicinghospitality, doing good to those
(22:48):
who curse you, living at peace.
You know all the kinds ofdescriptors there that you have
of the life of the Christian whonow is living by the promise
and power of the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
So good.
We love, as Lutherans, to talkabout the work of Jesus, right,
the gospel is his life, hisperfect fulfillment of the law,
and you see this summarized in 1Corinthians 15.
Paul basically gives a summaryof what he's received.
He's passed down, he fulfilledthe law, he died our death,
(23:30):
suffered for our sins, and threedays later bodily rose from the
.
So we love to talk about thefor our sins and three days
later, bodily rose from this.
So we love to talk about thework of Jesus, his ascension,
his reign.
Obviously, we are people of theword right, the words of Jesus.
But then the way that Jesuslived, his embodied, sacrificial
, cross-bearing way, obviouslyshaped the early church, a group
(23:53):
of people who were so bold tosay Jesus is Lord rather than
Caesar is Lord, at the cost of,potentially, their life.
Now their life had been wrappedup in Christ.
So speak about the way of Jesusand the sanctified life,
because another way to talkabout the gospel is the spirit
descending right.
(24:14):
And they had to go and they hadto wait to be fully made, fully
right with the world.
One of my favorite terms thatDr Bierman would use as it
relates to our love in the world, our sanctified Holy Spirit
filled life is becoming.
It's about becoming.
It's not perfection until Jesuscomes, but becoming fully human
, right, when things are justright and you're living in the
(24:36):
proverbial groove of the Spirit.
This is the way of Jesus.
Sometimes, as Lutherans, though,we're reluctant, I think,
sometimes to speak more aboutthe way, because obviously we're
worried about works,righteousness and things like
that.
I was speaking with anothertheologian, michael Gorman, on
(24:56):
this podcast a little bit ago.
I think it was on anotherpodcast that I lead, but he goes
we Methodists are not asconcerned about now.
They're concerned about works,righteousness, to be sure.
But he was like, yeah, that'snot.
They're way more into speakingabout the way of Jesus than we
as Lutherans sometimes.
And this kind of gets into andI'll just let I'm getting all
the words out the debate betweenthe second and third function
(25:17):
of the law, and there in someLutheran circles, right, we're
reluctant to talk third functionof the law.
So, with all that as a preamble, I'd love to get your
perspective on looking at Jesus,the way of Jesus, as a
Christian today, dr Platt.
Speaker 3 (25:33):
Okay, you know this is a great question and
something that Luther also hadto tackle.
You know, peter, in his firstepistle, talks about how Christ
suffered for us, leaving us anexample, and then Peter kind of
(25:56):
unpacks what that looks like interms of the ordinary places of
life and marriage and beforesecular government and so forth.
But Luther used two kind ofLatin terms and he said we have
to keep the order straight, kindof Latin terms, and he said we
have to keep the order straight.
Luther is that Christ is firstof all sacramentum, sacrament or
(26:19):
donum, gift, and but secondlyhe is also exemplum.
But the donum sacramentum kindof, is God to us.
Luther says here Christ issheer gift, nothing about my
(26:41):
action, nothing about my work,that my stance is purely
receptive by faith alone.
And now, though, kind of turnto the neighbor, and Luther
holds both together in thecommunion collect that we often
pray after the receivingChrist's body and blood Luther
wrote it in 1526, that thissalutary gift may strengthen us
(27:03):
in faith toward you, ferventlove toward one another.
Those are the two big words,faith and love.
When they're confused, we haveproblems.
We are not saved because of ourlove of God, that we are saved
because of God's love for us,which is now received in faith.
(27:23):
And now love is focused veryconcretely toward the neighbor,
and so we don't see Jesus as anexample in the sense that if we
are conformed, if we do whatJesus did, then we would become
(27:45):
righteous and worthy.
None of us, you know, none ofus, can do that.
If it were a matter ofimitating Jesus, we would all be
done for from the beginning,because I don't think any of us
was born of a virgin, and sothere it is all receptive.
The way I like to talk about,then, the life of faith is to
(28:10):
use the word reciprocity, is touse the word reciprocity.
We first of all receive, butthen out of what we have
received, we also give.
You know, paul writes in 1Corinthians 4, 8, what do you
have that you had not received?
That the entire stance of theChristian is one of receptivity.
(28:32):
We were talking at thebeginning of the podcast here a
little bit, of course.
I teach in theological ethics,and one of the texts I use is by
a German Luther scholar stillliving, joel Beyer, living by
Faith, and he has another greatbook or a great article entitled
the Ethics of Gift, and hemakes the point that, you know,
(28:54):
kant started his ethics with thecategorical imperative and he
says Lutheran starts ethics withthe categorical gift, and he
cites that first Corinthianspassage.
And so that the first questionis, for Bayer says, is not what
must I do, but what have I beengiven?
(29:15):
And then I kind of look at thatin light of all three articles
of the Creed Talked about thebody and soul God created,
redeemed, purchased, reconciled,redeemed, won back by the blood
of Christ and liberated fromsin, death and the devil by
power of his resurrection fromthe dead, enlivened by the Holy
(29:36):
Spirit given us in baptism, sothat we indeed now are temples,
our bodies in fact, are templesof that Holy Spirit.
And now, what have I been given?
I've been given particularneighbors, and Bayer suggests
that we think particularly aboutwhat Luther called the three
(29:57):
estates or table of duties.
You know, you live in acongregation where you're a
preacher or hearer of the wordof God.
You live in the civic communitywhere you are a governor or a
citizen.
You have, you know, a role incitizenship or in the civic
(30:18):
sphere.
And then the third, thedomestic sphere, the household,
which for Luther was not onlythe family but also the
workplace, because in Luther'sday most work was done inside
the home or family farm.
We would probably expand that alittle today because most
people are doing work outsidethe home or family farm.
We would probably expand that alittle today because most
people are doing work outsidethe home.
But the purpose for Luther isthat these are the places now
(30:43):
where you serve God by servingthe neighbor.
So you don't serve God byretreating to a monastery or
trying to figure out some, youknow, plan or program that you
could serve God.
You attend to these ordinaryplaces in life and in that way
Luther says that we are dailybread one to another and I
(31:06):
really like that image that Godgives daily bread, but he always
does it through other creatures, and so I am, you know,
recipient of daily bread, but healways does it through other
creatures.
And, and and so I am, you know,recipient of daily bread today
has done 10 sub and uh, you know, somebody had to make that wrap
and pour the drink and so forth.
That was daily bread to me.
(31:27):
And um, and now, hopefully, youknow, by this podcast, by
teaching later this afternoon, Ican be daily bread to, you know
, other people, my students, or,in this case, you know
listeners, and so that there's areciprocity here that God has
arranged in the world.
And, being a Christian, now, youknow who the giver is and you
(31:51):
know how God then is using thatgift the giver is and you know
how God then is using that gift,and you're not left on your own
to try to figure out how thesegifts are best to be used.
And that's where we would talkabout, you know, the Ten
Commandments as a third functionof the law, that the law
doesn't justify, but it shows.
It certainly shows and providesstructure for the way that you
(32:14):
are to live within creation andand and there again in creation
I am to.
Christ is my example.
You know I can't do everythingthat he did.
I can't feed the multitude withfive loaves, two fish, but I
can feed some people and even ashe, you know, reached out to
(32:38):
the hurting, I can reach out tothose people that he places in
my life, who are in need of mycare, and so we can talk about
living a Christ-like life.
Then, to the neighbor, eventhough before God we still stand
as those who are continually inneed of the gift of his mercy.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
Hey, that's so good, Dr Pless, Thank you.
Let's second part of ourconversation love to talk,
preaching, and this is a reallynice segue.
It appears as if at the closeof a lot of the Apostle Paul's
letters he gives somedescription maybe not as much
prescription, but somedescription about what the life
(33:23):
of faith looks like, and I'mthinking like Ephesians 5, in
the home and love and respectbetween a husband and a wife.
And sometimes the preacher'sdilemma is and I love how law,
gospel, there is an order, to besure, I mean the sinner is
killed, crushed and then raisedto new life by the gospel.
(33:44):
Faith is created through thepreached, proclaimed and
believed word.
But sometimes the preacher'sdilemma is well, what happens if
I talk about maybe one of thosethree estates in my work in the
world?
Am I putting that person rightback under the judgment of the
law rather than the freedom of aChristian?
And I think that I just gave usa key word there the freedom to
(34:07):
follow Jesus in love for ourneighbor, for our neighbor.
So, as a Lutheran preacher, howcomfortable and or sensitive
should we be toward thatstruggle in preaching?
Third function maybeprescriptive or descriptive life
now in love for the neighbor,in a message, in a preaching
ministry Am I?
(34:28):
making sense I hope I am.
Let's talk about preaching in athird function of the law.
Speaker 3 (34:32):
Okay, well, I guess.
First of all, I think we needto keep in mind that we are not
the one who is in control of thelaw.
It's not like I'm in first gearand then push it over to third
gear.
The Holy Spirit is going to usethe law as he wills and that's
(34:59):
why we say a sermon preachingneeds to preach both law and
gospel the law to identify ourneed for the mercy that is
received only by the gospel.
And even as the law is doingthat, it is also pointing us to
(35:19):
the pattern that God would haveus live within.
I think the best example of thisis probably the way Luther
handles the Ten Commandments insmall catechism.
Commandments in small catechismthat if you want to use kind of
(35:40):
those you know Luther himselfdid not use first, second, third
kind of language.
It's a little later development.
But if you want to use thirduse language, the commandments
are basically third use in thesmall catechism.
Third use in the smallcatechism.
First of all it's directed toChristians.
But Luther is talking in mostof his expositions there both
(36:02):
what the law prohibits but thenalso what the law prohibits
prescribes.
In other words, prohibition andprescription is kind of the way
I talk about it, but you know,when you look at that, the
things that the Christian is todo.
(36:23):
Second commandment you knowyou're not to swear, lie,
practice satanic arts orwitchcraft deceived by God's
name, but call upon him in everyneed, call upon his name in
every need, pray, praise andgive thanks.
You might be able, with somediscipline, to handle that first
(36:44):
part.
You know, I can watch my lips,I can refrain from cursing, I
can.
You know, avoiding witchcraft,that's actually kind of easy.
I don't mess with Ouija boardsand so forth.
But when it comes to thatsecond one, do I always, in
every trouble, call upon God'sname?
No, do I always pray, praisingyour thanks?
(37:06):
No, so what Luther does in kindof teaching third use is back
to the fact that this law isalso always attacking and
accusing everything that is notin Christ, even as it is
providing a kind of a structure,you might say, for the way that
(37:28):
we live within creation.
And so I think that would bekind of one aspect that the
preacher needs to keep in mind.
I think a second aspect is thatwhen I preach the law, I need
to preach the law in such a wayas every mouth is shot and the
(37:54):
whole world held accountablebefore God.
One of the things I sometimesworry about in some of our
congregations is that pastorscan be very bold in condemning
abortion, same-sex marriage, soforth, but and you know, think
well, by that I'm preaching thelaw because my people should
(38:17):
avoid these things, but at thesame time they don't really
realize that there are peoplethere whose primary temptation
might not be to a same-sexrelationship or to go and get an
abortion, and they then kind oftake comfort in a kind of
(38:39):
self-righteousness that I'm notlike one of those.
You know people, and so I thinkone of the great gifts we
learned from CFW Walther and hegot it from Luther is to preach
the law with such incisiveness.
If even a concrete particularsin is being condemned, it
doesn't let you off the hook,you know.
Or Jesus, as Luther says, takesthe law in hand spiritually in
(39:03):
the Sermon on the Mount nolonger is it.
You shall not commit adultery,it's whosoever lust in his heart
is committed, adultery Insimilar words with murder and so
forth.
And so I think that is to bethe caution we never reduce the
(39:24):
law to simply examples of goodthings that we are to do and
leave undone of good things thatwe are to do and leave undone.
It's still God's law and itstill kills and condemns
everything that is not in Christ.
But then, with the gospel, thegospel creates and enlivens a
(39:51):
life that now has the actualenergy and the will to be kind
of self-forgetful and startfocusing on what the neighbor
needs, and I mean, I think,paul's great word in Galatians
2.20, the life I now live.
(40:11):
I live by faith in the Son ofGod who loved me and gave
himself up for me, and how thatjust kind of breaks the whole
thing open, so that we are notresorting to self-justification,
which is the default positionof all human beings, but we are
looking to Christ alone andrejoicing in what he has given
(40:35):
us in the forgiveness of sins.
We are then freed to focus onwhat does the neighbor need,
what does my congregation hereneed?
What is needed in the community, what is needed in the
household?
And then the pastor.
I think the preacher can speakconcretely and directly to that
in the way that this is the waythat this again, this embodied
(41:01):
life, takes shape.
This is what it looks likethere, you know, in the world,
but always, you know, rooted andgrounded in Christ, and when
you look at you know youmentioned Ephesians.
Of course that's a greatexample, because the first three
(41:21):
chapters of that letter allabout the triune God, what he
has done to redeem us, giving usa destiny of glory.
And then, in chapters fourthrough six, paul speaks very
concretely life, oftruth-telling in four, doing
honest work with your hands sothat you can give something to
(41:45):
those in need marriage, childrenand parents, parents and
children workers.
It's almost as though Paul hadbeen reading Luther's Catechism.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
Or vice versa.
Speaker 3 (41:56):
Yeah, obviously tongue in cheek there that
Luther was reading Paul and hasthis place.
You know, for the doctrine ofvocation and I think you know
Luther's two great contributionsOne was the rediscovery of
justification by grace, throughfaith alone for Christ's sake.
(42:17):
And I think the seconddiscovery, if you want to put it
like that, which flows from thefirst, is the doctrine of
vocation, and I think sometimeswe have not fully as Lutherans,
we've not fully exploited thetreasure that we have in the
doctrine of vocation a callingto live by faith in Christ and
then the calling to live a lifeof free service to the neighbor
(42:41):
in the world.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
Wow, so much there, dr Pless.
I am praying for I was just inEphesians four unity in the
church.
Satan loves to steal, kill,destroy and divide and therefore
we should put on the full armorof God Ephesians 6.
And I think I'd love to getyour take on this there are
(43:04):
pockets in our church body wherewe're just not walking together
, talking together as well as Ipray we do, into the future.
We've got some struggles andsome people, myself included,
who have strong opinions interms of how we move forward
together, from leadershipdevelopment to what happens on
(43:26):
different committees and behindclosed doors.
I think there's room for trust,wider trust, to be built in our
church body and I think are-understanding and gratitude
and respect for the doctrine ofvocation could play a key role,
because there's still the battlesometimes between the office of
(43:50):
holy ministry and then everyeverybody else you know and, and
I think, the everybody else whoare in our pews, who are sent
out into the marketplace, intotheir homes, into their places
of vocation, um as missionaries,as those who hear the word of
God and speak the word of God,who are Ephesians chapter four
(44:11):
equipped by those who are inleadership for love and good
deeds.
I think an understanding ofvocation could go a long way
right now in uniting us in theLutheran Church Missouri Synod.
Anything more to say there, drPless?
Speaker 3 (44:24):
Well, yeah, I think that's true.
You know, I think thatunderstanding of vocation kind
of goes in both ways.
You know, the pastor has aparticular calling and the goal
is not somebody put it thepastorhood of all believers, but
(44:45):
the priesthood of all believers, and that priesthood is
actually a higher calling thanthat of the pastor.
Priesthood is actually a highercalling than that of the pastor
.
The pastor is there to deliverthe gifts that will build up the
body of Christ, but royalpriests have the responsibility
of, because of their statusbefore God, of speaking to God
(45:08):
on the behalf of people,speaking to people on behalf of
God proclamation God on thebehalf of people, speaking to
people on behalf of Godproclamation.
And then this life of livingsacrifice, which, if we you know
, we kind of briefly mentionedRomans 12, present your bodies
as living sacrifice, which thenkind of encompasses everything
that we're to do in, in, youknow, in our life in the world.
(45:32):
You know, when you sent me thenote, one of the things that you
mentioned and I realize thatwe're probably not going to have
time to do it this time, butthat's an excuse for me to come
back another time I guess that'sit, it was the Luther's Oratio,
meditatio, tentatio and that'ssomething I teach in pastoral
theology, and you mentionedabout tensions and struggles and
(45:56):
even sometimes brotherlynastiness in the church, which,
you know, there's plenty ofblame to go around all sides
there, no doubt.
But, as you were thinking, youmentioned the Ephesians 6
passage, the whole armor of God.
You think about Luther's oratiomeditatio tentatio, the oratio,
(46:16):
the prayer, the prayer thatrises out of hearing the word of
God, that in the church we prayour Father, who art in heaven
(46:39):
are.
You know we are brothers andsisters of the big brother Jesus
, who now entitles us andenlivens us to call his father,
our father, and to, you know, tocome at it really from that
perspective that you know we'renot adversarial groups here.
I mean, that's what satan wouldlike to convince us that we are
in competition.
We got to get our piece of theturf, our plan, our um, you know
(47:03):
, our uh goal accomplished.
But you come at it as redeemedchildren of God, forgiven
sinners, praying together ourFather and the meditatio
meditation, not in some kind ofmystical Buddhist gazing at your
(47:25):
belly button meditation, buthearing the Word of God and
again hearing the Word of Godtogether and letting that word
have its way with us.
And when Luther talks about themeditatio, he focuses it again
on the first commandment.
You shall have no other godsbefore me.
And he says where the firstcommandment is meditated on, in
(47:48):
that way, there will also be thetentatio, and that tentatio is
the spiritual attack.
But then what does thatspiritual attack do?
It drives us back to themeditatio, to the word of
promise, and it's that word ofpromise that enables us to open
our mouths to call upon the nameof the Lord, call upon the name
(48:11):
of the Lord.
And so you know, I'm notsuggesting that you or me or
anybody else design a programfor, you know, a new Kononia
project or reconciliationproject, but it would be
interesting if we would justmaybe look at Luther's Oratio
Meditatio, tentatio and thinktogether about how that might be
(48:38):
something of a template to helpus, you know, live together in
Christian community.
You know, the other person wewere going to talk about and
didn't get around to talkingabout this preaching was Helmut
Thieleke, but one of hiscontemporaries, diedrich
(48:59):
Bonhoeffer.
Not many people know aboutThieleke, everybody knows about
Bonhoeffer.
But Bonhoeffer wrote thatlittle book Life Together.
Life Together, yeah.
And he says one of the greattemptations with life together
is you think it has to be thiskind of perfect, we're all going
(49:19):
to get along kind of community?
No, we are sinners, we sinagainst each other even as we
sin against our Lord, andthere's always space, should be
space for repentance,forgiveness and newness, newness
(49:42):
of life, even as we struggle.
And keeping in mind the wordsof Paul in Ephesians that our
struggle is not against fleshand blood, it's not against
other human beings, especiallyother human beings who are
baptized and bear the name ofbrother or sister.
It's against principalities andpowers.
(50:02):
And Satan's main goal, ofcourse, is to silence the pure
preaching of the gospel and giveus some pseudo gospel.
Speaker 2 (50:11):
Dr Pless, this has been so much fun.
I'm sorry we're.
At time I made notes and when Iget back in six months or so
for another learning sessionwith you, both times I've got to
hang out with you.
I feel like I'm back at school.
I took like three pages ofnotes.
You know I forget more thingsthan I remember, and so you're
(50:31):
just like sparking all of thesebeautiful teachings and if
someone wants to partner with usat the ULC on designing a
framework and it's neverprescriptive you've got to do it
this way.
This is the power of invitation.
There could be an invitationfor us to really deeply look at
(50:53):
conflict and resolution usingthe oratio, meditatio, tentatio,
and then back to meditatio andback to oratio framework for
coming together as brothers andsisters in Christ, recognizing
that the first one to the crosswins Confession and absolution
is at the heart of our Christianlife together and we have to
(51:15):
talk together.
The reason we do these podcastsand there are some, as the
world has changed and we startedout with AI what that means for
the written and spoken wordthat was another question I was
going to bring up Like are youseeing this change at all?
The next generation of writers.
I love to write.
You're a prolific writer, drPless, but unfortunately today
(51:38):
and maybe some say it'sfortunate you can just throw a
couple thoughts into an AI chat,gpt, and come out with pretty
well articulated I mean, it'skind of that is scary to me,
just to be quite honest, becauseI think we need to be
expressing ourselves in writtenand verbal form and not letting
a robot help us communicate.
(52:00):
I think there's somethingthat's deeply, deeply wrong
about that, and so I guess I'lljust I got a couple minutes.
I can be late to a meeting.
Are you seeing AI in theclassroom at all, where you're
like I don't know if a humanactually produced this.
Speaker 3 (52:16):
Or, yeah, what's your perspective?
I mean, this kind of took us asa faculty kind of by surprise a
couple of years ago and nowwe're asking that Professional
journals now a lot ofprofessional journals if you use
AI in production of an article,you have to give a little
(52:37):
disclaimer that you've done,that you reviewed journals.
But then even there questionsare being raised.
You know, I use Google if Iwant to find some piece of
historical data.
Well, that's kind of AI.
But if I, but if I have, if Iwould, you know, try to get AI
to write an article on thedifference between Melanchthon
(53:02):
and Calvin, on the third use ofa law.
You know that's different.
And and and I just driving overthis morning listening to NPR,
they were talking, there was aagain an interview on AI and
then maybe that's one reason Imentioned it, and they were
talking about AI in the legalprofession and lawyers actually
(53:26):
using AI to write legal briefs,but then AI not always getting
it right.
And if AI can't get it rightwith civil law, I don't think AI
is probably going to be able todo much with articulation of
the gospel, even though you maygive it some specs.
The gospel from the perspectiveof Lutheran Church, missouri
(53:50):
Senate, or the gospel accordingto Luther or something it's.
You know, there still needs tobe discernment in a human brain
and eye involved in the process.
Speaker 2 (54:02):
I think I think you're right and yeah, so lots
more to share.
I can't wait Next time we'regoing to talk preaching in the
age of fear and the article thathe wrote.
That's going to be a great time, hey, Dr Pless, praying for you
and your ministry, for yourbody and your health and your
mind to continue to shape thenext generation of leaders in
(54:23):
the Lutheran Church MissouriSynod.
We're better for having you ontoday.
If people want to connect withyou, how can they do so, dr plus
?
Speaker 3 (54:29):
they can do so at my seminary email.
Uh, johnplus at ctsfwedu.
So good and go ahead on socialyeah, I, I have a facebook and
and what's up and much of thosestuff, but uh that the place is
(54:49):
there too.
I have a couple of pages onFacebook that deal with some of
my own interest in Luther'spastoral theology and on two
kingdoms and stuff, so theycould find it there.
Great to be with you.
One of the fun things I get todo is continuing ed classes for
(55:10):
pastors in the summer and havingthis conversation reminds me of
why I enjoy doing that so much.
Always good to be out there andhave conversation with brothers
who are serving flesh and bloodcongregations.
Speaker 2 (55:27):
Amen, just trying to be faithful.
This is lead time.
Please like, subscribe, comment, and that really does help get
the word out when you havecomments, whether you agree with
everything we said or you'vegot a difference of opinions.
Let's grow up together intoJesus, who is our leader and
Lord, the lover of every humansoul, who is the hound of heaven
(55:48):
, who wants his gospel to beheard, preached, heard and
believed, and this is a podcastof the Unite Leadership
Collective.
That is our heart's desire,because that is God's desire
that everyone would be saved.
The days are too short for usto do anything other than preach
the word of God and pray thatthe Holy Spirit works, that many
(56:12):
would believe and come to asaving knowledge of the gospel
of Jesus Christ.
It's a good day.
Go and make it a great day.
Thanks so much, dr Pless.
Speaker 1 (56:18):
You bet You've been listening to Lead Time, a
podcast of the Unite LeadershipCollective.
The ULC's mission is tocollaborate with the local
church to discover, develop anddeploy leaders through biblical
Lutheran doctrine and innovativemethods To partner with us in
this gospel message.
Subscribe to our channel, thengo to theuniteleadershiporg to
create your free login forexclusive material and resources
(56:41):
and then to explore ways inwhich you can sponsor an episode
.
Thanks for listening and staytuned for next week's episode.
This is Lead Time.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Welcome to Lead Time, tim Allman here.
Jack Kauberg is on a beachsomewhere in the Caribbean, my
normal co host and today I getto have on the podcast for the
second time Reverend Dr JohnPless, currently a professor at
Concordia Theological Seminaryin Fort Wayne, and he's got he
says he's semi-retired.
(00:25):
As you listen to his teachingload listener you're going to be
like that doesn't sound likesemi-retirement.
Dr Pless is getting on a littlebit later today.
He's got catechetics andtheological ethics.
Let's start with that, Dr Pless, before we get going.
How are you doing, brother?
Thanks for being on.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
I'm fine, thanks.
I am a modified service, as youmentioned, which normally means
two courses a quarter, but Ihad a colleague that had to be
away for some family issues andso I ended up kind of at last
minute taking on one of hiscourses as well.
But it's a full quarter.
But I enjoy it and glad to havethe opportunity to teach, to
(01:00):
have the opportunity to teach.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
And for those of you who are just listening, not
looking, in the background isall of Dr Pless's many, many
books, theological books mostly,that have shaped his, his
education.
You are yeah, you're very, verywell respected in the Lutheran
church, Missouri Synod and inLutheranism internationally, Dr
(01:25):
Pless.
So thank you again for the timehere.
Let's start.
You said you're teaching atheological ethics class.
What are you teaching there?
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Right.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
And even let's start out what's the Lutheran
understanding of ethics ingeneral?
I had a similar class with DrBierman 20-some years ago at the
seminary, so I know he's acolleague of yours as well.
So let's talk Lutheranism andethics, Dr Plass.
Start there.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
Well, that's a great question, because you know, to
state the obvious, there are allkinds of ethical systems out
there.
And you know, when I'mtraveling and somebody figures
out I'm a pastor, and they starttalking about, well, what do
you do?
And I tell, well, I teach at aseminary.
(02:08):
And sometimes you even have toclarify you know what a seminary
is.
But I teach future ministers.
Well, what do you teach?
And if I say catechetics, theyhave no idea what I'm talking
about.
You know, I thought you weretraining ministers, not
veterinarians or something youknow and or even pastoral
theology, and I kind ofexplained that a bit.
(02:30):
But if I say ethics, they arekind of right there with me.
Oh, yeah, I'm.
You know, I had to take acourse in pharmaceutical ethics
when I was in pharmacy school,or or we had to have a course in
business ethics as part of anMBA degree.
But you know, when outside thechurch and in many ways even
outside kind of the Lutheranchurch, when people think of
(02:53):
ethics, they basically think ofeither what we might call kind
of a descriptive ethics ethicdescribes what a moral or good
life looks like or aprescriptive ethic.
Here are the things that you'vegot to do if you're going to be
an ethical person, and I wouldsuggest that Lutheran ethics
(03:16):
starts from a very differentperspective.
It's not simply descriptive norprescriptive.
It has to do with our lifebefore God, who God has made us
to be as creator, what he hasdone to reclaim us, reconcile us
to himself in Christ and thenew life then that he gives in
(03:39):
by the Holy Spirit, that ourbodies might indeed be temples
of his presence in the world.
So while all other ethicalsystems basically start from
what I would call kind of ananthropological or human
being-centered you know way oftalking, Lutheran ethics
(04:01):
theological ethics at leaststarts from the perspective of
God, and so we talk about that,and you know that ethics is not
something that we're doing toachieve salvation.
So we spend a significant amountof time talking about
(04:21):
distinction betweenjustification and life, of
sanctification and how ethicsreally kind of comes at the
intersection of justificationand sanctification.
When we talk about life in theworld, we talk a lot about
Luther's understanding of thetwo governments or the two
kingdoms, and then a goodportion of the course is looking
(04:44):
at um, um ethics as it relatesto beginning of life, uh, to
marriage and to end of lifeissues and you know, those
horizons are always beingexpanded today, um with um,
developments in biomedicalethics and, uh, when I started
this course a couple of weeksago I just asked students to,
(05:07):
kind of popcorn style, give me a.
You know issues that are risingor have arisen that they think
would be ethical issues todayand it's interesting a lot of
stuff there related toartificial intelligence, that's
what I was going to ask yeah, AI, AI and the whole, sometimes
(05:28):
called transhumanism orpost-human futures.
You know, can you, you know,could you actually be human
without the body?
You know your mind being maybedownloaded into kind of a
software, things that reallykind of sound a little science
(05:49):
fiction-like maybe to us but areincreasingly becoming, you know
, in the realm of reality thereTime to be alive, dr Pless, the
rate of change, and with changealways comes ethical concerns.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Right, because we are as human beings, we're idol
making, our hearts are idolmaking factories and we're some
James K Smith teaching here.
Right, we are desiring thingsfirst and foremost and our
hearts are desiring, after thethings, of the world and its
wealth and power and positionand pleasure and kind of kind of
(06:29):
uh, aquinas's four, uh idolshave you?
Obviously you've heard 13, 14thcentury aquinas on on power and
pleasure and money and fame orhonor.
And and I think ai is, it's afascinating who's going to
leverage the controls around thefuture of AI, you know, and our
(06:51):
Christians, speaking to, hey,human beings created in the
image of God, who speak thewords of God, who care for
humans, who are aboutmultiplying humans, be fruitful
and multiply.
If we outsource to somethingother than God, we're going to
be up a creek without aproverbial paddle, right, and
fortunately for us as Christians, right, we know the end of the
(07:13):
story.
We know Jesus is coming back tomake all things new, new
heavens and new earth, and sothere's that, which is a very
significant that.
But, yeah, what are some ofyour biggest concerns as you
look at AI especially in lightof our desires as humans, dr
Pless.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Well, I think you know one of the real challenges
and it's kind of a perennialchallenge, I think with ethics,
and especially ethics since theEnlightenment has been the whole
conceptuality of autonomy, hasbeen the whole conceptuality of
autonomy From two Greek wordsautos, nomos, law unto oneself
(07:59):
and the thought that we couldsomehow kind of transcend all
creaturely limitations, that,rather than understanding
ourselves as creatures,creatures that have been endowed
with a particular dignity byour creator and, at the same
time, creatures who live withinfinite limitations, but
(08:20):
recognizing that our hope isfinally not in an escape from
the body but in the resurrectionof the body to a life
everlasting.
And I think AI is one moreattempt to kind of transcend our
creatureliness, so thatcertainly, as creatures, we do
(08:40):
have a calling to make things tocreate, have a calling to make
things to create, to be God's.
You know God's mask or God'scoverings, that he is doing a
particular work in the world butwe do that also with
recognition of our own limitswithin creation.
(09:02):
I think in some ways, you know,ai is another example of trying
to transcend that.
And then, in the whole, youknow the whole realm of ethics.
Today it is challenging becausewe do have technology that is
developing far faster than wehave time to engage in any kind
(09:23):
of moral or ethical reflection.
So some of the best writers inethics today I think of a
British American teaching inScotland, actually Brian Brock,
doing a lot of work on ethicsand technology, or here in this
country.
In this country Brent Watershas written a book on
(09:49):
transhumanism.
You know that the technologyhas simply developed tools and
capacities, but we as a people,and certainly we as church, have
really not had a chance to kindof catch up with what is
(10:09):
possible technologically, yeah,hey, for those that aren't maybe
aware, we have a very astutelistenership.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
But transhumanism, define transhumanism and its
effect on every human today.
And how could it leak into thechurch in some way, shape or
form into our world asChristians, creatures in God's
creation?
So talk about transhumanism,just with a little bit more
depth, dr Pless.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
Yeah, sure, I think that term, as it's been used
today, certainly by people likeBrent Waters, refers to this
kind of trajectory that sees thehuman body as kind of an
assemblage of replaceable parts.
And I mean, you know, certainlywe think of organ transplants
(10:59):
and we think of all the goodthat's done, can be done, you
know, by transplant of organs.
But he also notes there's kindof a dark side there, and one of
the dark sides is that it seesthe body as just kind of like
you know, your car Transmissionshoots out, you go get a new
transmission, that if airconditioner, you know, breaks
(11:24):
down, get a new air conditionerin the car, and that the body
then is seen as kind of thisassemblage of parts.
And then the worry that theethicists have is you know where
does this start?
Could a body simply be kind ofretooled over and over again so
that there would finally be nocontinuity with the body that
(11:48):
you had at conception or atbirth, and in that way you would
transcend being a creature, youwould really transcend being
human Kind of you know, fears ofeven what you know the author
of Frankenstein kind of fearedback in the 19th century that
(12:13):
you would have, you would createsomething that would really be
a monster, would no longer behuman.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Here, you know you have shades also of Cs lewis.
Abolition of man yeah, well,we've seen the impact in the
last few years in the lgbtq plussexuality, right, and I mean
that's.
And then the barbarism, thebutchery in that industry as it
relates toward, like, thereneeds to be people going to jail
because of allowing youngpeople, apart from parental
(12:49):
consent, to make big barbarous.
I mean, it is Frankenstein typechanges to their body because
they don't feel like they're agirl or they're a boy, right,
and then you've got a culturethat's creating all of these.
Just, it's confusion, and theheart of this, dr Pless, is
obvious for those of us who havestudied and looked at history.
(13:10):
It's obviously justrepristination of Gnosticism and
platonic thought that the bodydoesn't matter, right.
And I can conceptualize who I am.
No, no, no.
God gets to be and this is whythe question has God gets to
tell me who I am and he doesn'tmake mistakes.
You are created fearfully andwonderfully, male and female.
It's wild to me, Dr Pless, asapastor, I have to make a
(13:30):
statement like that from thepulpit and it's seen kind of as
a political statement like giveme a break, this is the heart of
our creator, how he's made us.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
Yeah, this is not simply a political issue.
The question is, you know, do wecontinue to understand
ourselves as creatures and Ipurposefully here use the word
creature, because you can't havea creature without a creator
and so we acknowledge a creator.
You know, very simply, you knowthe language of Luther's
(14:00):
catechism, small catechism.
I believe that God has made me,it's very personal.
He has made me, given me bodyand soul, you know eyes, ears,
reason, all my members and soforth, and we move away, our
culture has moved away from anunderstanding of being creature,
(14:21):
hence transhumanism to now I'mgoing to be my own creator, and
if I don't like the body thatI've been given in this case, as
you mentioned here, kind ofsexually, then I'm free to
choose my own gender, I'm freeto remake myself and then, when
my body doesn't work very wellanymore, I'm free to end it.
(14:42):
Medical assistance in dying,physician-assisted suicide, are,
you know, big now?
Big issues, but it all comes tokind of a disdain for the body
and seeing the body as simplykind of a disposable carriage
for the all-powerful human will.
And so, rather than, you know,being able to receive with
(15:12):
thanksgiving the body that Godhas given me, now it's my will.
That's going to determine whatI look like, what I do, how I
perform.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
The Bible uses the word soul quite a bit, yeah, and
how are we rightly, asChristian Lutherans, to
understand the soul as adifferentiator for all humans,
created in the image of God?
Talk about that a little, drPless.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
Yeah, well, you know we as biblical Christians we
have a different understandingof soul from what you would have
in you mentioned.
You know, kind of platonic Greek, dualistic body and soul.
You know, like the body is justkind of a container for the
soul, but in scripture body andsoul are really used, the
(16:07):
language from Psalm knittogether.
You know that I can't imaginewhat my soul looks apart from my
body and my.
You know we are embodied humanbeings, body and soul, body and
soul together.
And on the last day God willraise not only our souls, giving
(16:29):
us eternal life, but body andsoul together will, like our
Lord Jesus Christ, have life inGod's kingdom, his creation, his
new creation, his creation, hisnew creation.
And so the soul is not justkind of a life force or a spark
(16:50):
of divine energy that liveswithin you and someday will,
like a bird being set free froma cage, you know, fly away.
Your soul has to do with yourbeing made in God's image and
having the capacity to relate toGod, to answer him and
(17:11):
acknowledge him as your creator.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
So good.
This was probably going to bereleased in the Easter season,
dr Pless, and did some work.
I'm resisting the temptation togo down the Shroud of Turin
little pathway right now.
There's some fantastic researchbeing done on the Shroud and
science converging that.
I believe it's the burial clothof Jesus and the flashpoint of
(17:37):
a whole bunch of protons andneutrons, a flashpoint of light
in the resurrection moment.
That's just my belief.
I don't need it to be true toknow that Jesus has been bodily
raised from the dead.
But you see Paul in 1Corinthians 15 saying what was
created, a physical body wasraised like Christ, a spiritual
(17:57):
body.
How are we to understand thatspiritual body, the resurrected
body as Christ was?
So will we be on that last day?
Because I think a lot of timeswhen people hear spiritual they
think non-physical.
Could you get behind that wordin 1 Corinthians 15 a little, dr
Pless?
Speaker 3 (18:14):
Yeah, I think there the spiritual body is the body
that is raised by the Lord andgiver of life, the Holy Spirit.
And you know Jesus who?
Or as Son of God, of course hepossessed the Spirit from all
eternity, but as man he wasconceived by the Holy Spirit.
(18:40):
You know virgin birth.
He was anointed with the Spirit.
At his baptism resurrection,his body, his very physical body
, still bearing the marks ofnail and spear, will have the
(19:03):
life of the Spirit forever.
And when you look at, you know,when you look at the
resurrection accounts of theLord Jesus in the New Testament,
jesus does with his body afterthe resurrection what none of us
can do with our bodies.
And you know reason will saywell, how can you do that?
(19:24):
Body is a physical.
If it's a body, it has to be aphysical object one place, one
time.
Well, jesus is Lord and he isnot subject to the laws of
physics.
So he can do with his body nowas he wills.
You know he can pass throughdoors and yet he can also have
breakfast of fish and it's inhis body that he fills all
(19:49):
things.
And of course in our Lutheranchurch that's very important
when it comes to the Doctrine ofthe Lord's Supper, that the
ascension is not Jesus simplygoing up to the 34th floor and
waiting to the last day, but, asPaul says in Ephesians, he
bodily ascends, that he mightfill all things, and so he's
(20:10):
able to be with us with his bodyand his blood under bread and
wine in the sacrament of thealtar.
That's so.
And that really, you know, whenwe talk about body, and this has
all kinds of implications forethics, one of the key texts of
(20:30):
course I use when teachingtheological ethics is a passage
that I think all of us areprobably familiar with Romans
12,.
1 to 2,.
Present your bodies as livingsacrifice, and we do that by the
mercies of God.
So this is not a work ofoffering that we're doing to
merit God's favor, merit God'sgrace, but in light of God's
(20:54):
mercy we now present our bodiesas living sacrifice.
And then Paul goes on to unpackthat Don't let.
My favorite kind of paraphraseof that is from JB Phillips,
paraphrase that he did in theNew Testament back after the war
, second World War, where heparaphrases Romans 12.2,.
(21:17):
Don't let the world squeeze youinto its own mold, but rather
be renewed from the inside out.
So again, the internal.
You know who you are inside out, but express bodily, and when
that word body, soma, is usedthere, the body is the way that
(21:38):
you are present to the world.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
How else would I be.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
Yeah, yeah, I can't.
You know, I can't be simplyspiritually present, I have to
be embodied.
And when we speak of Christbeing bodily present in the
sacrament, this is it.
When we speak of Christ beingbodily present in the sacrament,
this is it.
It's the real Jesus, the onewho was crucified and raised.
He's now giving us the fruitsof that redemption with his body
(22:02):
and blood.
And then the turn, I think, forethics, is that just as God
gives himself to us, socompletely now we give ourselves
to the life of the neighbor inlove.
In fact, this is exactly kindof how Luther interprets the
sacrament, as God's self-givingGod giving us Christ's body and
(22:27):
blood.
And then the liturgy.
After the liturgy, as oneperson has put it, or the
worship that takes place afterthe benediction, is what happens
in daily life, as you areliving a life turned inside out
to love the neighbor.
And when you look at the restof Romans 12, the rest of Romans
12 is exactly about the veryconcrete shape that the
Christian life takes practicinghospitality, doing good to those
(22:48):
who curse you, living at peace.
You know all the kinds ofdescriptors there that you have
of the life of the Christian whonow is living by the promise
and power of the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
So good.
We love, as Lutherans, to talkabout the work of Jesus, right,
the gospel is his life, hisperfect fulfillment of the law,
and you see this summarized in 1Corinthians 15.
Paul basically gives a summaryof what he's received.
He's passed down, he fulfilledthe law, he died our death,
(23:30):
suffered for our sins, and threedays later bodily rose from the
.
So we love to talk about thefor our sins and three days
later, bodily rose from this.
So we love to talk about thework of Jesus, his ascension,
his reign.
Obviously, we are people of theword right, the words of Jesus.
But then the way that Jesuslived, his embodied, sacrificial
, cross-bearing way, obviouslyshaped the early church, a group
(23:53):
of people who were so bold tosay Jesus is Lord rather than
Caesar is Lord, at the cost of,potentially, their life.
Now their life had been wrappedup in Christ.
So speak about the way of Jesusand the sanctified life,
because another way to talkabout the gospel is the spirit
descending right.
(24:14):
And they had to go and they hadto wait to be fully made, fully
right with the world.
One of my favorite terms thatDr Bierman would use as it
relates to our love in the world, our sanctified Holy Spirit
filled life is becoming.
It's about becoming.
It's not perfection until Jesuscomes, but becoming fully human
, right, when things are justright and you're living in the
(24:36):
proverbial groove of the Spirit.
This is the way of Jesus.
Sometimes, as Lutherans, though,we're reluctant, I think,
sometimes to speak more aboutthe way, because obviously we're
worried about works,righteousness and things like
that.
I was speaking with anothertheologian, michael Gorman, on
(24:56):
this podcast a little bit ago.
I think it was on anotherpodcast that I lead, but he goes
we Methodists are not asconcerned about now.
They're concerned about works,righteousness, to be sure.
But he was like, yeah, that'snot.
They're way more into speakingabout the way of Jesus than we
as Lutherans sometimes.
And this kind of gets into andI'll just let I'm getting all
the words out the debate betweenthe second and third function
(25:17):
of the law, and there in someLutheran circles, right, we're
reluctant to talk third functionof the law.
So, with all that as a preamble, I'd love to get your
perspective on looking at Jesus,the way of Jesus, as a
Christian today, dr Platt.
Speaker 3 (25:33):
Okay, you know this is a great question and
something that Luther also hadto tackle.
You know, peter, in his firstepistle, talks about how Christ
suffered for us, leaving us anexample, and then Peter kind of
(25:56):
unpacks what that looks like interms of the ordinary places of
life and marriage and beforesecular government and so forth.
But Luther used two kind ofLatin terms and he said we have
to keep the order straight, kindof Latin terms, and he said we
have to keep the order straight.
Luther is that Christ is firstof all sacramentum, sacrament or
(26:19):
donum, gift, and but secondlyhe is also exemplum.
But the donum sacramentum kindof, is God to us.
Luther says here Christ issheer gift, nothing about my
(26:41):
action, nothing about my work,that my stance is purely
receptive by faith alone.
And now, though, kind of turnto the neighbor, and Luther
holds both together in thecommunion collect that we often
pray after the receivingChrist's body and blood Luther
wrote it in 1526, that thissalutary gift may strengthen us
(27:03):
in faith toward you, ferventlove toward one another.
Those are the two big words,faith and love.
When they're confused, we haveproblems.
We are not saved because of ourlove of God, that we are saved
because of God's love for us,which is now received in faith.
(27:23):
And now love is focused veryconcretely toward the neighbor,
and so we don't see Jesus as anexample in the sense that if we
are conformed, if we do whatJesus did, then we would become
(27:45):
righteous and worthy.
None of us, you know, none ofus, can do that.
If it were a matter ofimitating Jesus, we would all be
done for from the beginning,because I don't think any of us
was born of a virgin, and sothere it is all receptive.
The way I like to talk about,then, the life of faith is to
(28:10):
use the word reciprocity, is touse the word reciprocity.
We first of all receive, butthen out of what we have
received, we also give.
You know, paul writes in 1Corinthians 4, 8, what do you
have that you had not received?
That the entire stance of theChristian is one of receptivity.
(28:32):
We were talking at thebeginning of the podcast here a
little bit, of course.
I teach in theological ethics,and one of the texts I use is by
a German Luther scholar stillliving, joel Beyer, living by
Faith, and he has another greatbook or a great article entitled
the Ethics of Gift, and hemakes the point that, you know,
(28:54):
kant started his ethics with thecategorical imperative and he
says Lutheran starts ethics withthe categorical gift, and he
cites that first Corinthianspassage.
And so that the first questionis, for Bayer says, is not what
must I do, but what have I beengiven?
(29:15):
And then I kind of look at thatin light of all three articles
of the Creed Talked about thebody and soul God created,
redeemed, purchased, reconciled,redeemed, won back by the blood
of Christ and liberated fromsin, death and the devil by
power of his resurrection fromthe dead, enlivened by the Holy
(29:36):
Spirit given us in baptism, sothat we indeed now are temples,
our bodies in fact, are templesof that Holy Spirit.
And now, what have I been given?
I've been given particularneighbors, and Bayer suggests
that we think particularly aboutwhat Luther called the three
(29:57):
estates or table of duties.
You know, you live in acongregation where you're a
preacher or hearer of the wordof God.
You live in the civic communitywhere you are a governor or a
citizen.
You have, you know, a role incitizenship or in the civic
(30:18):
sphere.
And then the third, thedomestic sphere, the household,
which for Luther was not onlythe family but also the
workplace, because in Luther'sday most work was done inside
the home or family farm.
We would probably expand that alittle today because most
people are doing work outsidethe home or family farm.
We would probably expand that alittle today because most
people are doing work outsidethe home.
But the purpose for Luther isthat these are the places now
(30:43):
where you serve God by servingthe neighbor.
So you don't serve God byretreating to a monastery or
trying to figure out some, youknow, plan or program that you
could serve God.
You attend to these ordinaryplaces in life and in that way
Luther says that we are dailybread one to another and I
(31:06):
really like that image that Godgives daily bread, but he always
does it through other creatures, and so I am, you know,
recipient of daily bread, but healways does it through other
creatures.
And, and and so I am, you know,recipient of daily bread today
has done 10 sub and uh, you know, somebody had to make that wrap
and pour the drink and so forth.
That was daily bread to me.
(31:27):
And um, and now, hopefully, youknow, by this podcast, by
teaching later this afternoon, Ican be daily bread to, you know
, other people, my students, or,in this case, you know
listeners, and so that there's areciprocity here that God has
arranged in the world.
And, being a Christian, now, youknow who the giver is and you
(31:51):
know how God then is using thatgift the giver is and you know
how God then is using that gift,and you're not left on your own
to try to figure out how thesegifts are best to be used.
And that's where we would talkabout, you know, the Ten
Commandments as a third functionof the law, that the law
doesn't justify, but it shows.
It certainly shows and providesstructure for the way that you
(32:14):
are to live within creation andand and there again in creation
I am to.
Christ is my example.
You know I can't do everythingthat he did.
I can't feed the multitude withfive loaves, two fish, but I
can feed some people and even ashe, you know, reached out to
(32:38):
the hurting, I can reach out tothose people that he places in
my life, who are in need of mycare, and so we can talk about
living a Christ-like life.
Then, to the neighbor, eventhough before God we still stand
as those who are continually inneed of the gift of his mercy.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
Hey, that's so good, Dr Pless, Thank you.
Let's second part of ourconversation love to talk,
preaching, and this is a reallynice segue.
It appears as if at the closeof a lot of the Apostle Paul's
letters he gives somedescription maybe not as much
prescription, but somedescription about what the life
(33:23):
of faith looks like, and I'mthinking like Ephesians 5, in
the home and love and respectbetween a husband and a wife.
And sometimes the preacher'sdilemma is and I love how law,
gospel, there is an order, to besure, I mean the sinner is
killed, crushed and then raisedto new life by the gospel.
(33:44):
Faith is created through thepreached, proclaimed and
believed word.
But sometimes the preacher'sdilemma is well, what happens if
I talk about maybe one of thosethree estates in my work in the
world?
Am I putting that person rightback under the judgment of the
law rather than the freedom of aChristian?
And I think that I just gave usa key word there the freedom to
(34:07):
follow Jesus in love for ourneighbor, for our neighbor.
So, as a Lutheran preacher, howcomfortable and or sensitive
should we be toward thatstruggle in preaching?
Third function maybeprescriptive or descriptive life
now in love for the neighbor,in a message, in a preaching
ministry Am I?
(34:28):
making sense I hope I am.
Let's talk about preaching in athird function of the law.
Speaker 3 (34:32):
Okay, well, I guess.
First of all, I think we needto keep in mind that we are not
the one who is in control of thelaw.
It's not like I'm in first gearand then push it over to third
gear.
The Holy Spirit is going to usethe law as he wills and that's
(34:59):
why we say a sermon preachingneeds to preach both law and
gospel the law to identify ourneed for the mercy that is
received only by the gospel.
And even as the law is doingthat, it is also pointing us to
(35:19):
the pattern that God would haveus live within.
I think the best example of thisis probably the way Luther
handles the Ten Commandments insmall catechism.
Commandments in small catechismthat if you want to use kind of
(35:40):
those you know Luther himselfdid not use first, second, third
kind of language.
It's a little later development.
But if you want to use thirduse language, the commandments
are basically third use in thesmall catechism.
Third use in the smallcatechism.
First of all it's directed toChristians.
But Luther is talking in mostof his expositions there both
(36:02):
what the law prohibits but thenalso what the law prohibits
prescribes.
In other words, prohibition andprescription is kind of the way
I talk about it, but you know,when you look at that, the
things that the Christian is todo.
(36:23):
Second commandment you knowyou're not to swear, lie,
practice satanic arts orwitchcraft deceived by God's
name, but call upon him in everyneed, call upon his name in
every need, pray, praise andgive thanks.
You might be able, with somediscipline, to handle that first
(36:44):
part.
You know, I can watch my lips,I can refrain from cursing, I
can.
You know, avoiding witchcraft,that's actually kind of easy.
I don't mess with Ouija boardsand so forth.
But when it comes to thatsecond one, do I always, in
every trouble, call upon God'sname?
No, do I always pray, praisingyour thanks?
(37:06):
No, so what Luther does in kindof teaching third use is back
to the fact that this law isalso always attacking and
accusing everything that is notin Christ, even as it is
providing a kind of a structure,you might say, for the way that
(37:28):
we live within creation.
And so I think that would bekind of one aspect that the
preacher needs to keep in mind.
I think a second aspect is thatwhen I preach the law, I need
to preach the law in such a wayas every mouth is shot and the
(37:54):
whole world held accountablebefore God.
One of the things I sometimesworry about in some of our
congregations is that pastorscan be very bold in condemning
abortion, same-sex marriage, soforth, but and you know, think
well, by that I'm preaching thelaw because my people should
(38:17):
avoid these things, but at thesame time they don't really
realize that there are peoplethere whose primary temptation
might not be to a same-sexrelationship or to go and get an
abortion, and they then kind oftake comfort in a kind of
(38:39):
self-righteousness that I'm notlike one of those.
You know people, and so I thinkone of the great gifts we
learned from CFW Walther and hegot it from Luther is to preach
the law with such incisiveness.
If even a concrete particularsin is being condemned, it
doesn't let you off the hook,you know.
Or Jesus, as Luther says, takesthe law in hand spiritually in
(39:03):
the Sermon on the Mount nolonger is it.
You shall not commit adultery,it's whosoever lust in his heart
is committed, adultery Insimilar words with murder and so
forth.
And so I think that is to bethe caution we never reduce the
(39:24):
law to simply examples of goodthings that we are to do and
leave undone of good things thatwe are to do and leave undone.
It's still God's law and itstill kills and condemns
everything that is not in Christ.
But then, with the gospel, thegospel creates and enlivens a
(39:51):
life that now has the actualenergy and the will to be kind
of self-forgetful and startfocusing on what the neighbor
needs, and I mean, I think,paul's great word in Galatians
2.20, the life I now live.
(40:11):
I live by faith in the Son ofGod who loved me and gave
himself up for me, and how thatjust kind of breaks the whole
thing open, so that we are notresorting to self-justification,
which is the default positionof all human beings, but we are
looking to Christ alone andrejoicing in what he has given
(40:35):
us in the forgiveness of sins.
We are then freed to focus onwhat does the neighbor need,
what does my congregation hereneed?
What is needed in the community, what is needed in the
household?
And then the pastor.
I think the preacher can speakconcretely and directly to that
in the way that this is the waythat this again, this embodied
(41:01):
life, takes shape.
This is what it looks likethere, you know, in the world,
but always, you know, rooted andgrounded in Christ, and when
you look at you know youmentioned Ephesians.
Of course that's a greatexample, because the first three
(41:21):
chapters of that letter allabout the triune God, what he
has done to redeem us, giving usa destiny of glory.
And then, in chapters fourthrough six, paul speaks very
concretely life, oftruth-telling in four, doing
honest work with your hands sothat you can give something to
(41:45):
those in need marriage, childrenand parents, parents and
children workers.
It's almost as though Paul hadbeen reading Luther's Catechism.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
Or vice versa.
Speaker 3 (41:56):
Yeah, obviously tongue in cheek there that
Luther was reading Paul and hasthis place.
You know, for the doctrine ofvocation and I think you know
Luther's two great contributionsOne was the rediscovery of
justification by grace, throughfaith alone for Christ's sake.
(42:17):
And I think the seconddiscovery, if you want to put it
like that, which flows from thefirst, is the doctrine of
vocation, and I think sometimeswe have not fully as Lutherans,
we've not fully exploited thetreasure that we have in the
doctrine of vocation a callingto live by faith in Christ and
then the calling to live a lifeof free service to the neighbor
(42:41):
in the world.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
Wow, so much there, dr Pless.
I am praying for I was just inEphesians four unity in the
church.
Satan loves to steal, kill,destroy and divide and therefore
we should put on the full armorof God Ephesians 6.
And I think I'd love to getyour take on this there are
(43:04):
pockets in our church body wherewe're just not walking together
, talking together as well as Ipray we do, into the future.
We've got some struggles andsome people, myself included,
who have strong opinions interms of how we move forward
together, from leadershipdevelopment to what happens on
(43:26):
different committees and behindclosed doors.
I think there's room for trust,wider trust, to be built in our
church body and I think are-understanding and gratitude
and respect for the doctrine ofvocation could play a key role,
because there's still the battlesometimes between the office of
(43:50):
holy ministry and then everyeverybody else you know and, and
I think, the everybody else whoare in our pews, who are sent
out into the marketplace, intotheir homes, into their places
of vocation, um as missionaries,as those who hear the word of
God and speak the word of God,who are Ephesians chapter four
(44:11):
equipped by those who are inleadership for love and good
deeds.
I think an understanding ofvocation could go a long way
right now in uniting us in theLutheran Church Missouri Synod.
Anything more to say there, drPless?
Speaker 3 (44:24):
Well, yeah, I think that's true.
You know, I think thatunderstanding of vocation kind
of goes in both ways.
You know, the pastor has aparticular calling and the goal
is not somebody put it thepastorhood of all believers, but
(44:45):
the priesthood of all believers, and that priesthood is
actually a higher calling thanthat of the pastor.
Priesthood is actually a highercalling than that of the pastor
.
The pastor is there to deliverthe gifts that will build up the
body of Christ, but royalpriests have the responsibility
of, because of their statusbefore God, of speaking to God
(45:08):
on the behalf of people,speaking to people on behalf of
God proclamation God on thebehalf of people, speaking to
people on behalf of Godproclamation.
And then this life of livingsacrifice, which, if we you know
, we kind of briefly mentionedRomans 12, present your bodies
as living sacrifice, which thenkind of encompasses everything
that we're to do in, in, youknow, in our life in the world.
(45:32):
You know, when you sent me thenote, one of the things that you
mentioned and I realize thatwe're probably not going to have
time to do it this time, butthat's an excuse for me to come
back another time I guess that'sit, it was the Luther's Oratio,
meditatio, tentatio and that'ssomething I teach in pastoral
theology, and you mentionedabout tensions and struggles and
(45:56):
even sometimes brotherlynastiness in the church, which,
you know, there's plenty ofblame to go around all sides
there, no doubt.
But, as you were thinking, youmentioned the Ephesians 6
passage, the whole armor of God.
You think about Luther's oratiomeditatio tentatio, the oratio,
(46:16):
the prayer, the prayer thatrises out of hearing the word of
God, that in the church we prayour Father, who art in heaven
(46:39):
are.
You know we are brothers andsisters of the big brother Jesus
, who now entitles us andenlivens us to call his father,
our father, and to, you know, tocome at it really from that
perspective that you know we'renot adversarial groups here.
I mean, that's what satan wouldlike to convince us that we are
in competition.
We got to get our piece of theturf, our plan, our um, you know
(47:03):
, our uh goal accomplished.
But you come at it as redeemedchildren of God, forgiven
sinners, praying together ourFather and the meditatio
meditation, not in some kind ofmystical Buddhist gazing at your
(47:25):
belly button meditation, buthearing the Word of God and
again hearing the Word of Godtogether and letting that word
have its way with us.
And when Luther talks about themeditatio, he focuses it again
on the first commandment.
You shall have no other godsbefore me.
And he says where the firstcommandment is meditated on, in
(47:48):
that way, there will also be thetentatio, and that tentatio is
the spiritual attack.
But then what does thatspiritual attack do?
It drives us back to themeditatio, to the word of
promise, and it's that word ofpromise that enables us to open
our mouths to call upon the nameof the Lord, call upon the name
(48:11):
of the Lord.
And so you know, I'm notsuggesting that you or me or
anybody else design a programfor, you know, a new Kononia
project or reconciliationproject, but it would be
interesting if we would justmaybe look at Luther's Oratio
Meditatio, tentatio and thinktogether about how that might be
(48:38):
something of a template to helpus, you know, live together in
Christian community.
You know, the other person wewere going to talk about and
didn't get around to talkingabout this preaching was Helmut
Thieleke, but one of hiscontemporaries, diedrich
(48:59):
Bonhoeffer.
Not many people know aboutThieleke, everybody knows about
Bonhoeffer.
But Bonhoeffer wrote thatlittle book Life Together.
Life Together, yeah.
And he says one of the greattemptations with life together
is you think it has to be thiskind of perfect, we're all going
(49:19):
to get along kind of community?
No, we are sinners, we sinagainst each other even as we
sin against our Lord, andthere's always space, should be
space for repentance,forgiveness and newness, newness
(49:42):
of life, even as we struggle.
And keeping in mind the wordsof Paul in Ephesians that our
struggle is not against fleshand blood, it's not against
other human beings, especiallyother human beings who are
baptized and bear the name ofbrother or sister.
It's against principalities andpowers.
(50:02):
And Satan's main goal, ofcourse, is to silence the pure
preaching of the gospel and giveus some pseudo gospel.
Speaker 2 (50:11):
Dr Pless, this has been so much fun.
I'm sorry we're.
At time I made notes and when Iget back in six months or so
for another learning sessionwith you, both times I've got to
hang out with you.
I feel like I'm back at school.
I took like three pages ofnotes.
You know I forget more thingsthan I remember, and so you're
(50:31):
just like sparking all of thesebeautiful teachings and if
someone wants to partner with usat the ULC on designing a
framework and it's neverprescriptive you've got to do it
this way.
This is the power of invitation.
There could be an invitationfor us to really deeply look at
(50:53):
conflict and resolution usingthe oratio, meditatio, tentatio,
and then back to meditatio andback to oratio framework for
coming together as brothers andsisters in Christ, recognizing
that the first one to the crosswins Confession and absolution
is at the heart of our Christianlife together and we have to
(51:15):
talk together.
The reason we do these podcastsand there are some, as the
world has changed and we startedout with AI what that means for
the written and spoken wordthat was another question I was
going to bring up Like are youseeing this change at all?
The next generation of writers.
I love to write.
You're a prolific writer, drPless, but unfortunately today
(51:38):
and maybe some say it'sfortunate you can just throw a
couple thoughts into an AI chat,gpt, and come out with pretty
well articulated I mean, it'skind of that is scary to me,
just to be quite honest, becauseI think we need to be
expressing ourselves in writtenand verbal form and not letting
a robot help us communicate.
(52:00):
I think there's somethingthat's deeply, deeply wrong
about that, and so I guess I'lljust I got a couple minutes.
I can be late to a meeting.
Are you seeing AI in theclassroom at all, where you're
like I don't know if a humanactually produced this.
Speaker 3 (52:16):
Or, yeah, what's your perspective?
I mean, this kind of took us asa faculty kind of by surprise a
couple of years ago and nowwe're asking that Professional
journals now a lot ofprofessional journals if you use
AI in production of an article,you have to give a little
(52:37):
disclaimer that you've done,that you reviewed journals.
But then even there questionsare being raised.
You know, I use Google if Iwant to find some piece of
historical data.
Well, that's kind of AI.
But if I, but if I have, if Iwould, you know, try to get AI
to write an article on thedifference between Melanchthon
(53:02):
and Calvin, on the third use ofa law.
You know that's different.
And and and I just driving overthis morning listening to NPR,
they were talking, there was aagain an interview on AI and
then maybe that's one reason Imentioned it, and they were
talking about AI in the legalprofession and lawyers actually
(53:26):
using AI to write legal briefs,but then AI not always getting
it right.
And if AI can't get it rightwith civil law, I don't think AI
is probably going to be able todo much with articulation of
the gospel, even though you maygive it some specs.
The gospel from the perspectiveof Lutheran Church, missouri
(53:50):
Senate, or the gospel accordingto Luther or something it's.
You know, there still needs tobe discernment in a human brain
and eye involved in the process.
Speaker 2 (54:02):
I think I think you're right and yeah, so lots
more to share.
I can't wait Next time we'regoing to talk preaching in the
age of fear and the article thathe wrote.
That's going to be a great time, hey, Dr Pless, praying for you
and your ministry, for yourbody and your health and your
mind to continue to shape thenext generation of leaders in
(54:23):
the Lutheran Church MissouriSynod.
We're better for having you ontoday.
If people want to connect withyou, how can they do so, dr plus
?
Speaker 3 (54:29):
they can do so at my seminary email.
Uh, johnplus at ctsfwedu.
So good and go ahead on socialyeah, I, I have a facebook and
and what's up and much of thosestuff, but uh that the place is
(54:49):
there too.
I have a couple of pages onFacebook that deal with some of
my own interest in Luther'spastoral theology and on two
kingdoms and stuff, so theycould find it there.
Great to be with you.
One of the fun things I get todo is continuing ed classes for
(55:10):
pastors in the summer and havingthis conversation reminds me of
why I enjoy doing that so much.
Always good to be out there andhave conversation with brothers
who are serving flesh and bloodcongregations.
Speaker 2 (55:27):
Amen, just trying to be faithful.
This is lead time.
Please like, subscribe, comment, and that really does help get
the word out when you havecomments, whether you agree with
everything we said or you'vegot a difference of opinions.
Let's grow up together intoJesus, who is our leader and
Lord, the lover of every humansoul, who is the hound of heaven
(55:48):
, who wants his gospel to beheard, preached, heard and
believed, and this is a podcastof the Unite Leadership
Collective.
That is our heart's desire,because that is God's desire
that everyone would be saved.
The days are too short for usto do anything other than preach
the word of God and pray thatthe Holy Spirit works, that many
(56:12):
would believe and come to asaving knowledge of the gospel
of Jesus Christ.
It's a good day.
Go and make it a great day.
Thanks so much, dr Pless.
Speaker 1 (56:18):
You bet You've been listening to Lead Time, a
podcast of the Unite LeadershipCollective.
The ULC's mission is tocollaborate with the local
church to discover, develop anddeploy leaders through biblical
Lutheran doctrine and innovativemethods To partner with us in
this gospel message.
Subscribe to our channel, thengo to theuniteleadershiporg to
create your free login forexclusive material and resources
(56:41):
and then to explore ways inwhich you can sponsor an episode
.
Thanks for listening and staytuned for next week's episode.
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