God’s Grace Reaches Those Who Have Left Faith | An Interview with Matt Miles

Matt Miles is a Political Science professor at Brigham Young University–Idaho and a co-host of This Week in Mormons and the Latter-day Lens podcasts. Links Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community Religious Identity in US Politics The Latter-day Lens podcast This Week in Mormons Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Highlights This discussion centers on a research-backed framework for measuring religiosity, moving beyond traditional metrics to focus on the transformative effects of faith on an individual's life. Beyond the Three B's: Traditionally, religiosity has been measured by "the three B's": Behavior (what a person does), Belonging (their social connections), and Belief (their convictions). Matt Miles argues that these are insufficient measures of genuine faith. The Fourth B: Becoming: A more accurate measure is "religious becoming"—the extent to which a person has been transformed by their faith. This concept suggests that true religiosity is not just about actions but about internal change. Four Aspects of Transformation: Based on his research, Miles identified four universal traits that indicate "religious becoming": Transcendence (a connection to the divine), Humanity (love for others), Justice (a belief in fairness), and Temperance (humility). Faith and Political Tolerance: The research shows that individuals with higher scores in "religious becoming" are more politically tolerant. They are less likely to view those with opposing political views as a threat, in contrast to those whose faith is measured only by the "three B's." Challenges of Genuine Change: The episode highlights the difficulty for leaders and parents in discerning whether someone has truly been transformed by the gospel or is simply going through the motions. Leadership Applications Leaders should focus on teaching a "holistic gospel" that emphasizes the principles of "becoming," rather than just providing a checklist of behaviors. This encourages genuine internal change over external compliance. The discussion suggests that the Church is effective at teaching "transcendence" (connection to God) but could improve at teaching "humanity" (love for others) and "temperance" (humility). Leaders can apply this insight by creating more opportunities for members to serve others and develop empathy. The research on political tolerance can help leaders foster more charitable and understanding discussions within their wards and stakes, particularly on sensitive topics. The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints' mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

Episode Transcript

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and subscribe.
In most families, you'll find somebody or two
or three who have stepped away from the
church, and that can create a lot of
tension in our relationships. And, really it creates
a lot of worry on the side of
maybe those that still believe and who are
still religious and faithful and go to church
and do all the things. And they worry

(01:56):
that that individual is on a path that
isn't gonna lead to any measure of happiness.
Now we know that the fullness of joy
comes from the restored gospel of Jesus Christ
and relying on our savior and ordinances and
all those things. However, there's maybe a reason
not to worry too much that this person
is doomed to a life of just depression
and unhappiness

(02:17):
when in reality God's more involved than we
may realize. So today I sit down with
my good friends, Matt Miles, who is actually
a professor of political science up at, Brigham
Young University, Idaho. And Matt's a great friend.
We talk about a lot of things. We
disagree a lot about a lot of things,
but nonetheless, our discussions are always very fulfilling
for me. So Matt's done some phenomenal research,

(02:38):
really interesting to explore this concept of religious
identity, because
typically we do that in the context of
denominations
or Christianity
or the types of religion, right, when the
question is, what makes somebody religious? Is it
simply their membership in a certain denomination or
religion, or is it more about their behaviors

(02:58):
and how they are finding connection to spirituality?
And this is really important to consider
from, maybe in more orthodox traditional Latter day
Saint view, because as we have loved ones
who step away from the church, it's important
for us to recognize the way that God
is still stepping into their life, still interfering
in the best ways possible
to develop them as a person, to move

(03:19):
them further down the sanctifying path. So that
at some point in the eternities,
as they get an opportunity after opportunity to
return to the covenant path, they'll still be
a different person
than they were when maybe they stepped off
of it. So fascinating discussion. There's going to
be a lot here for you to agree
with and disagree with. So, we'd love to
hear from you in the comments and share

(03:39):
your perspective. Here's my interview with Matt Miles.
Alright. Matt Miles,
in studio with me all the way from
BYU, Idaho. Yeah. It was a long drive.
How how's Rexburg these days? Right now is,

(04:01):
like, the two weeks when Rexburg is nice.
Okay. Yeah. And you're in Utah.
We thought, why not go to Utah? It
is weird. We get like this seven week
break and it's the perfect weather and everybody
leaves town. Right. Which is kinda sad, right,
for those people. But for us, it's like
the town is empty. There's nobody there. Weather's
perfect. Like, right now is the time to

(04:21):
go to Rexburg. Yeah. EF y FSY is
going on. Oh, yeah. So young kids everywhere,
teenagers everywhere. Yeah. So, like, if I'm in
my office, suddenly, I hear, like, chants, right,
outside or something like that. Nice. Yeah. So
how long have you been at BYU Idaho?
I started there in 2013, so twelve years.
Nice. And was that always the dream to
be the professor? Or No. No. When,

(04:43):
Sandra and I first got married,
I was working in banking in Utah,
and then we adopted our first son from
Ukraine.
And then our daughter was born about
two months later.
Wait, a whole Yeah, two months later. Okay.
I'm right about that. And then So once
I suddenly had kids,
working forty hours a week suddenly seemed awful

(05:05):
to me. So I was like, I've gotta
change my life.
So we moved to Kansas to do this
job where we would do foster care for
adults with disabilities.
Wow. So we did that for ten years.
We had two adult women living with us
and we would take care of all their
needs because they couldn't speak, they couldn't do
anything. And then we had our kids living
with us. And so while I was there,
I was like, you know what? I had

(05:26):
to do a PhD in something. And so
I did And as well. So I did
a PhD. So once I finished the PhD,
then it was like, if you don't do
something with your PhD right away, you're kind
of out of luck. So it was like,
Okay, now I gotta do something. So that's
when I went to BYU White House. It
wasn't the long term plan ever originally, but
it was sort of like, Well, we started

(05:46):
down this path. Might as well keep going.
Political
science is your main focus there. Yeah. Yeah.
So political science So this is actually kind
of funny because I did my bachelor's in
psychology
at BYU,
and I hated that people would take psychology
research and use it for what I thought
was bad stuff.
And so when I was thinking about doing

(06:07):
a PhD, I was like, What's a subject
that nobody cares about so that no one
would ever use my research in a bad
way?
Political scientists, nobody is ever like, Hey, what
does the political scientist think about this? And
so for me, it was like, That's the
one. Nobody cares what we do. That's the
field I wanna do. Isn't that weird? And
nobody's used it for evil purposes? My research

(06:31):
So it's kinda gotten lately, right, where you
could. There are former students I have that
use some of the things that we talk
about in class in ways that I wish
they wouldn't.
But at the same time, I'm just happy
that they have a job and I'm happy
that they're Yeah. Yeah. It's hard to use
political science stuff in a bad way, I
think. Unless you're a politician or what? No.
Like, because people expect them to be like

(06:53):
that, right?
It's like if you could do a PhD
in used car sales Uh-huh. And then somebody
used it, you'd be like, well, of course.
That's what a used car salesperson does. Right?
So it's sort of like they kind of
expect that. So as you're talking about I
assume you're talking about political related subjects in
your classes. Right? Yeah. What's the pulse on
just the your students that you're getting? Has
has it changed in the in the time

(07:14):
you've been there? You've seen any shifts? Yeah.
It's so this is what's interesting about
well, because it's at BYU Idaho, so they're
members of our church. Right? So it's really
interesting because when they leave home,
church and politics and all of that stuff
is all tied together into one big package.
Mhmm. And when we start talking about politics
or political science subjects, I have to be
really careful of, like, how I peel away

(07:35):
at things because otherwise, their faith will, like,
fall apart with it. And so it's really
interesting as you sort of start peeling some
things away.
Some kids will just go way to the
extreme. So, like, as an example, there was
this student that was, like, die hard Trump
supporter, like, hardcore.
And then two years later, Bernie Sanders, socialist,

(07:56):
like, hardcore on the left, Marxist.
And then he went all the way back
to the, like, Trump's too far left for
him, and he's, like, further right than Trump.
So you see a lot of movement with,
like, the college kids and their political views.
Mhmm. But in terms of an experience, it's
great because we just talk about like, they're
really interested in politics, but they don't know

(08:16):
the science side of politics. And so as
long as we focus on the political science
aspects,
it's kinda fun to watch them sort of
learn more about
the science side as they're sort of engaged
in the politics that they already care about.
Yeah. And along that same line, where did
the research come as far as this book
and with metrics of faith and where that
idea come from? Yeah. So I was approached

(08:38):
my first year at BYU Idaho. A book
publisher said, hey. I would like to start
doing books on religion and politics.
Could you write a book? And BYU Idaho
doesn't have any funding for research, and so
I was just sort of, like, thinking, like,
what do I already have done that I
could kinda put together into a book? And
it worked. And so I wrote this book.
It's called, religious social identity. But as I

(08:59):
was working on that project, I had these
other ideas of, like
I just didn't think we were measuring religion
the right way. And there's a lot of,
like, findings in that literature
about religion and politics that I thought weren't
right. And so then I was started thinking
these ideas like, okay. If I had the
money, if I could do it the right
way, how would I do it? And so
that's what I started putting together for this

(09:20):
book. The publisher calls it Metrics of Faith.
Mhmm. And they're the publisher, so I don't
care if they choose the title. But I
would have called it the fourth b. It's
about religious becoming.
And yeah. Should I explain why I would
call it? Well, then I'm curious with,
like, how do we typically
measure faith? I mean, or Yeah. So that's
why I would call it the fourth b.

(09:40):
So so in if you get into the
religious studies fight, there are kind of two
groups. There's two schools of thought. One school
of thought says everything in religion can just
kind of be lumped into this one group.
And then there's this other group that says,
like, all of the little details of religion
are super important, and we should study those.
In political science and sociology, they sort of

(10:01):
settled on this idea of religiosity,
which is we can measure religion
by the things a person does. So if
you go to church, if you read the
Bible, if you study your scriptures, if you
pray, we call that behavior.
Mhmm. And that's one way we measure religion.
If you believe in God, if you believe
the Bible to be the word of God,

(10:21):
we can call that belief. And then if
you
feel real close to the people in your
religious community,
Like, I have all of my friends go
to the same church as me. My family's
been a part of this church for a
long time. We call that belonging.
And so those are the three Bs, and
they also just kinda get lumped together in
religiosity. So usually, religion is measured by those

(10:42):
three things. Do you go to church? Do
you believe in God? How many friends do
you have that go to the church to
You didn't come over those. That's, like, generally
in the research. That's where they go. Yeah.
Like, last thirty years. That's how if you
talk about religion,
that's usually what people are talking about. There's
those I call them the inputs. Right? What
you're doing for religion. Gotcha. But you are
arguing there's a fourth one or Yeah. So
that's why I call it the fourth B.

(11:03):
I actually say you shouldn't measure religion by
what a person does. You should measure a
person by what a person becomes. I mean,
this is I think Elder Oaks had this
idea of becoming, right? But we should measure
religion not by Because we all know people
who go to church and who have friends
that go to church and who say they
believe in God, but they haven't actually had
this transformative effect. Like religion hasn't done anything

(11:25):
to them. And so I looked
through every religion out there. I said, okay,
what are the things that they have in
common? And there are some psychologists that have
also identified
these traits. And so there's these four things
that every religion
teaches people that they ought to try to
become. And so I say we should measure
religion then by the extent to which a

(11:46):
person has become
what religion wants them to be. Yeah. And
this is interesting because as I think back,
you know, the temple recommend questions get a
lot of lot of scrutiny, you know, because
it's like they're very behavior focused.
And as a church, I don't know the
best way to measure if somebody has had
a transformational experience to go into the temple
and participate in the ordinances there other than,

(12:08):
well, let's gather some general behavioral focused
questions or or belief focused questions. We'll ask
them. But, again, that doesn't mean everybody who
goes in the temple is this, like, satanly
person person. Right? But Yeah. So I'm curious
We have the same challenge at BYU Idaho
because our mission is to develop disciples of
Jesus Christ. And it's like, well, how do

(12:28):
I measure if a person is a disciple
of Jesus Christ? Yeah. So is there a
way to better
measure,
you know, the religiosity?
Was that word? Religion. Religion. Thank you. Yeah.
Or transformation
Yeah. Other than, well, looks like you go
to church, therefore, you must be transformed in
some way. Yeah. So to some extent, if
you're gonna ask people a question in a
survey, if they know what you're looking for,

(12:51):
then they're gonna give you answers that are
not necessarily authentic. Right? So to some extent,
you have to ask questions in a way
that they don't really know you're measuring religion
when you're asking them those questions. Mhmm. So
what I did there's this person out there,
bless his heart. He has a list of
4,000
survey questions
that have ever been asked in any survey
ever in psychology,

(13:12):
and they measure various things. So I went
through in statistics, you can look at like
factor loadings to see like how good a
question is or how how well it fits
with other questions. So I went through his
database
of 4,000 questions, and I was like, okay.
What are some questions that kinda weird hobbies,
man. I'm just saying.
I know. I'm like, what are some questions
that kinda fit these ideas I have in

(13:34):
my head?
And from that list of 4,000, I found
about nine of yeah. About nine. And then
I created
three of my own. Well, it's now at
16 questions. So I'd say about three fourths
of them come from this list of 4,000
questions. And then there were some others that
I was like, yeah. I need a different
question. So then there's about three or four
that I created on my own. And the

(13:55):
the intent of trying to see if somebody's
been transformed
in a religious way. Yeah. So, for example,
if like, instead of asking somebody, do you
believe in god, you'd ask one of the
questions is, like, I have a relationship with
the divine. Right? Or if I'm trying to
measure one of the concepts is,
temperance. Right? This idea of humility,

(14:15):
this idea that you're, like, you don't wanna
take credit for everything. Right? But, like, temperance
is multidimensional. But, like, one of my questions
is, I deserve credit for this the good
things that I do. Mhmm. Right? So when
a person's answering these questions,
they're not necessarily thinking of religion. They're just
saying, I say, how true is this about
you? And there's these these 16 questions, and
then they just say how true it is

(14:36):
about them. Mhmm. And then you can sort
of measure the extent to which these four
aspects of becoming a person has developed.
Interesting. And then depending on how they answer
them, you there's a score that Yeah. I
can for every person, I could just put
them all together, and I can say your
score is point 56. Your score is 0.98.
Uh-huh. And this may be so someone who
maybe is a proclaimed atheist doesn't go to

(14:57):
church but loves to be out hiking and
feels a a connection to a higher power
as they go hiking.
They may take this and come out as
very religious or Yeah. Religious. No. I would
call them religious. Alright. Yeah. Yeah. If you
like Penn and Teller, Penn Jillette Uh-huh. He
talks about how he's an atheist, but the
way he talks about his atheism really is
very religious in my perspective. Right? He cares

(15:19):
a lot about other people and he cares
a lot about doing the right things. And
but his motivation for that is not because
he believes in God, but but it's because
he has these other beliefs that are motivated
by his atheism. So so the interesting thing
about this scale is, like, if you just
look at religiosity,
atheists and agnostics
are very, very not religious.
But on my scale,
so the scale goes from zero to one.

(15:40):
Right? One means you're 100%.
Zero means nothing at all. And the average
atheist is like 0.44
on this scale.
A member of our church, I think the
average is like 0.7 or something like that.
Right? So it's like atheists score pretty high
on this measure of religion. They score as
high as like a Jewish person,
as high as, like a Greek Orthodox person.

(16:01):
They're kind of in that range. Right? So
what I would say is like a Greek
Orthodox person might probably score way higher on
transcendence, which is like this connection to the
divine or belief in God sort of thing.
But they might score lower on these other
aspects, whereas an atheist is probably scoring really
high in these, like, humanity
temperance ideas, but it's just lower in that
transcendence aspect of it. And I guess where

(16:23):
my bias wants me to to go is
I'm thinking, well, of course, if they're like,
how much does the culture influence being being
a Judeo Christian culture where we promote these
values of, you know, love your neighbor and
so forth that, like, is it fair to
say that individuals, even atheists in certain cultures,
maybe Judeo Christian cultures are more likely to

(16:44):
be
higher on the scale? Yeah. That's a good
question. And I think that that question gets
to the biggest question, which is, well, then
how do you know it's religion?
Because if people that we would consider non
religious are still scoring pretty high in it,
how do you know it's religion?
And you can go through these other measures
of religion, like how important is religion in
my life
and other various measures of religion. There's just

(17:04):
a really high correlation
between this and religion.
I think that the the other question is
really interesting. I would love to do kinda
cross national work to see, like, how are
atheists scoring differently.
Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. That's interesting interesting
question. So I'm curious, like, what's the I'm
just thinking about the church leaders who are
like, you know, I I go through the
temple recommend questions and, you know, they they

(17:25):
say all the the right answers and they
give them the recommend, but I don't, you
know, we have such a tradition of sort
of pounding, like, the testimony and get your
own testimony as if the and, essentially, what
we're saying is you need to be transformed
by the gospel. Don't just know the gospel,
be transformed by it. And so is there
a better way for maybe church leaders or
parents to better understand if the message is

(17:47):
actually
transforming those that we lead?
Yeah. So the that's the the ultimate challenge
of the temple recommend questions is you're trying
to take the entire gospel of Jesus Christ
and narrow it down to 13 questions. Mhmm.
And then our assumption is if you're saying
yes to these 13 questions,
you're on the path to the celestial kingdom.
But I think that like the gospel of

(18:08):
Jesus Christ encourages us to become something more
than that. Like it doesn't matter if you
live the word of wisdom perfectly, if you
go to church, if you right? If you
live the law of chastity. It doesn't matter
if you do all of those things if
you're not becoming who you want to become.
Mhmm. I think of it more like president
Nelson recently said, in the coming day, it
may not be possible to survive spiritually

(18:29):
without personal revelation. Mhmm. I think that there's
this push in the church that's encouraging people
to become something more than what they are.
And, like, just following the step like, when
I was growing up in the church, the
idea was you follow the steps, you teach
your kids to follow the steps, and then
when they're old, everything's gonna be just fine.
Yeah. But I think that the reality is

(18:50):
that that's just not true anymore. Mhmm. And
I think the danger in thinking that the
steps are gonna automatically lead us to something
is it makes us afraid when somebody isn't
following the steps. Yeah. I think about that
a lot when I go to church.
I mean, it's obvious to see the people
that aren't following all of the steps, especially
when I was a a YSA bishop. This
is what I noticed.

(19:11):
The kids that looked perfect,
the kids that looked like they were following
all the steps
were, like, sometimes inside really, really in a
bad place. Mhmm. And the kids that looked
like they weren't following the steps, maybe they
didn't, like, dress right, maybe they had long
hair or whatever,
Oftentimes, like, they were becoming
what you want them to become. And inside,
they were authentic. Right? Yeah. Sweetly. Yeah. Yeah.

(19:32):
So I think that in many ways, I'm
just trying to push us to think about
religion
less about
this idea that following the steps is gonna
lead us to where we wanna go. Mhmm.
Because if if you're not genuinely doing them
for the right reason, then even following the
steps isn't sufficient to get you to become
who heavenly father wants you to become. Yeah.
Anything else about as far as this measuring

(19:52):
religion and this different approach or stepping back
and rethinking it? Or does it kinda come
down to these 16 questions you've identified? Not
that these are the golden questions and you
figured it out. But Yes. That's an I
feel like, statistically, I've proven my case.
I feel like, philosophically,
theologically, I'd love to, like, start that discussion
of, like, should we think about religion as

(20:13):
something more than just what we do and
more about, like, who we are? Yeah. And
do you have the 16 questions memorized, or,
like, could you take us through better give
us a better idea of, like I wish
I had them memorized.
Like, what are they focused on or how
do you Okay. So transcendence is about your
connection to something a higher power, something greater
than you. Right? So so the questions are

(20:33):
like, I feel a connection to the divine.
I feel God's love for me.
That one, members of our church actually score
higher than any other religion in the world
on that particular
battery of questions.
Humanity
is about,
do you love other people? Do you care?
So one of the questions is like, if
I saw somebody and their car was broken
down, would I stop and help them? Right?

(20:53):
Or do you genuinely care about other people?
That one, members of our church don't do
so well
as they maybe should. Justice is the idea
that people should be treated fairly no matter
what's going on. Like everybody's
equal, should be treated equally.
And then temperance is this idea of
not giving into excess, right? Being humble. I

(21:13):
guess it'd be the opposite of pride.
It'd be the opposite of gluttony. That would
be temperance.
Yeah. Yeah. And I'm just thinking, like, from
a Latter day Saint perspective, you know, we
have such a strong tradition about
ordinances,
covenants,
where it's like, yeah, those things are important.
But at the core, it needs to be
in this covenantal relationship. Right? And but sometimes

(21:34):
we miss some of these transcendent
Yeah. Traits. We we hope we're getting there,
but by pushing maybe this tradition,
not that we shouldn't push it, but I'm
just saying we kinda leave these really strong
components
in the way. Yeah. I think in the
church, we get there's these false doctrines that
creep in. There's this prosperity gospel idea that
creeps into our church that says that if

(21:55):
you're righteous, you're gonna be successful.
And then along with that is this idea
that if you're successful, you should be able
to buy anything you wanna buy and, like,
do whatever you wanna do. And there's nothing
in the gospel that teaches that. Right? And
so we could do better at, like this
is why I think on temperance, maybe we
don't score so well. Right? Because we could
do better on this idea of, like, you

(22:15):
don't have to buy everything you could maybe
afford, and maybe you don't need the biggest
house or whatever. Right?
Humanity, same thing. We have in this church,
this tradition, and I'm not gonna say that
this isn't doctrinal, but there's this tradition
that you pull yourself up by your bootstraps
and you, like, work hard. And, like, if
you work hard enough, you're gonna achieve something.
And I just think that in the scriptures,

(22:37):
Jesus regularly kinda shows us that, like, even
if you're successful because you pulled yourself up
by your bootstraps, you have to help the
other people that that's not working out for
them, and you gotta look out for them.
And so I think we have programs in
the church
designed to help people do these things. And
I know that there are members of the
church that are doing these things. I just
don't think that it's a part of our

(22:59):
everyday teaching, our everyday focus, our everyday like,
when we say, what does it mean to
be a member of the church?
We're way more focused on, like, did you
drink coffee today? Then, like, did you do
something to help somebody in need today? Yeah.
So,
generally, the hope is just, is this person
becoming more sanctified
in using maybe our our verbiage. Right? Because

(23:21):
I know that they're I've witnessed individuals who
are like they're very rigid in our faith
tradition. They, you know, do all the things
as a youth. They maybe go on a
mission. They do the temple thing, and they're
they're doing all the the behavioral focus things.
And then they come to this moment of
it almost they're so rigid that their their
framing breaks down a lot easier because suddenly

(23:42):
my life begins to fall apart. Hey. Wait
a minute. I did all this stuff. I
should then, you know, see blessings and this
should all work out. And then it doesn't.
And when I see those people leave the
church, I have to it breaks my heart
because I think you are leaving a church
that I never joined. Like, it was never
about the gospel equation and doing all the
things so you do the right things. Right?

(24:03):
And so but as a parent or a
leader, sometimes it breaks our heart to see
them leave, but at the same time, they
need some type of reset because Yeah. They
were not on a covenant path that was
sustainable.
Right? It was just sort of going through
the motions expecting
heaven to send the blessings and make it
all good. Right? Yeah. Or I think a
lot of times as leaders and parents, we

(24:24):
believe that
if somebody follows all the steps,
then the promised outcome is that you become
who you're gonna become. Yeah. But it's not
like, I know as a youth, there were
many times that I was supposed to go
on a service project. I didn't want to.
I did it anyways and had a wonderful
experience. But that's not everybody's experience. That doesn't
happen for everybody. Right? That they go through

(24:45):
these steps and do these things, and then
the outcome is an awesome thing. Like,
I think that faith and religion is a
very personal thing between a person and God.
And whether the faith actually transforms a person,
I think as leaders and parents, we have
to recognize
whether or not a person is actually transformed
by the religion is actually up to that
person and the way that they practice faith.

(25:06):
And so we can love, we can encourage,
and then we have to, at some point,
just say, and then it's up to them.
Like, is it really gonna change them? Yeah.
And I've seen this, and this is where
it gets really a little uncomfortable and and
tricky. But to me, this is just the
paradox of God and the
the complexity of mortality as I've seen individuals
leave leave the church. They maybe even grasp

(25:27):
on to maybe a a new age type
of movement, right, where they're doing yoga, they're
in the wilderness a lot, they're doing these
retreats, they're doing, you know, silent retreats, meditations,
and there is a transformational
component to that. It's happening outside of the
LDS or Christian context, and we're kinda uncomfortable
with that. Like,
well and my belief is that, like, god

(25:48):
will work with us wherever we're at, and
he he will continually nudge us back to
his covenant path. But while we're out because
like you said, it's a choice. Yeah. Like,
if they've made that choice, does god just
say, well, I guess I'll give up on
him. No. He's gonna say, how can I
influence you in that context and hopefully guide
you back to the relationship? Right? Yeah. I

(26:08):
think in a lot of these things, we
need to take a big picture view. And
again, when I talk about that all of
these different religions and even atheists and agnostics
can become religious,
I a 100% believe that that's God that's
doing it. Mhmm. I believe that God works
through people. Like you said, in whatever way
he can work with them, he's gonna find
a way to reach out to them because
they're his children. Mhmm. He loves them. And

(26:29):
any way that he can be close just
like us with our own children, right? Anything
we can do to be close to our
kids, we're gonna try to do that. And
I think that God's very much that way.
And I also think that, like, we need
to be more comfortable
with people choosing their path if that's what
it looks like. It's hard, right, because we
believe that in the restored gospel and that
this is the plat like, the path to

(26:50):
salvation and, like, this is the way. So
it can be really hard to watch somebody
step away from that. But I think it's
okay. Like,
I've seen enough people that step away and
then come back. But if if you're thinking,
like, an eternal perspective,
a lot of people can step away and
then come back again. And if their path
to God
involves something through Buddhism or atheism or whatever,

(27:11):
who cares? Like, in the end, like, they're
coming back to him. Yeah. And especially more
prominent in our
religious theology tradition is that we play a
very long game. Like, he talked to some
protestants, and they're like, no. It's this life
or nothing. You know? Where
that transformation is gonna happen in various forms,
and we have a long game that we
can be at peace with when we see
maybe a loved one that's sort of that

(27:33):
they're on a different path. We can have
patience knowing that we have a lot of
time to work with and that we can
still love them, support them as they're on
that path. And it's okay to recognize
transformation
for good that's happening to them as they're
on that
alternative path. You know? Again, not and this
is where it's tricky because I'm not saying
if I was a bishop, someone comes in

(27:53):
and be like, well, I don't kinda I'm
just kinda not feeling it in this church.
It'd be like, well, have you checked out,
you know, new age? Like, try that or
Buddhism or maybe Reiki's lots of fun. Exactly.
But you know what's interesting, Kurt? And this
was when I was a bishop, I learned
this.
Like, Jesus suffered for all of our sins,
right? Mhmm. Knowing that we're gonna commit sin.
And I I knew a number of individuals

(28:16):
who did not have a lot of faith
in Jesus Christ
before they went through a transformative
repentance process
for a really big thing that they had
done wrong. And I realized as a bishop,
like, Jesus doesn't care.
He doesn't care if you come to him
because you were raised in the church and
you always tried to do the good things
and he was like there as a constant
companion in your life, Or if you live

(28:38):
this horrible life of sin and came went
through a transformative
process through the atonement and then came to
really know, like, wow. He is real because
I've been cleansed from this, and I didn't
know how to make, like, make the shame
go away. I didn't know how to make
the guilt go away, but he took that
away from me. Like, in the end, Jesus
doesn't care. That's why he suffered for everybody's
sins. And so if it means like a

(29:00):
person is gonna go on a path and
they're gonna find some good in their life,
and then they're gonna find something else missing
in their life, and then at some point,
it all just comes together, that's great. I
don't think Jesus cares. Yeah. And I think
we all do that to some extent. Just
some are more some actions are more stigmatized
than others. I mean, we're all we're always
sort of leaving the path and need to
come back. I mean, that's what repentance is.

(29:21):
You know? So Yeah. What are we missing
with,
let's see. Bob, you wanna talk politics stuff?
Oh, yeah. How it matters for politics? Yeah.
So how does this matter for politics? To
me, that's the really but to me, that's
the really cool thing. To be honest, my
brain didn't even go to politics, but the
political scientist there,
everything has to go back to politics right
now. You will I think it's important. I

(29:42):
think when you look at what president Nelson
and what president Oaks are teaching, like, I
think they're telling members of our church that
we're supposed to be the city on the
hill. We're supposed to be the ones
showing people how to do politics the right
way. Mhmm. And this actually this scale, like,
people who do this religious becoming, they actually
behave politically in the way that the prophet

(30:02):
wants them to behave. So I think it
has really cool implications because okay, so so
politically,
if you talk about political tolerance,
political tolerance is the idea that
you ask people which group in society do
you hate the most. And after they tell
you who they hate the most,
then you say,
should that person be allowed to do this?

(30:22):
Should they be allowed to do this? What
about this? Should they be able to vote?
Should they be able to run-in elections? Should
they be able to speak in public?
And what you find, it's actually kind of
sad, but religion
is negatively associated with tolerance. The more religious
a person is by those three Bs, the
less tolerant they are of others.
But this one actually has the opposite effect.

(30:45):
The higher you score in religious becoming, the
more tolerant you are of other people.
And it's for two reasons. It's one, because
when you're religious,
those people you hate are less threatening. You
don't see them as much of a threat.
But then the other one is just because
you care about people more than you care
about politics. And so, as politics becomes more
divisive and hateful and all of that stuff

(31:06):
in The United States,
the traditional measures of religion
make it look like religion's bad. But this
way of thinking about religion actually shows that
religion is a positive effect in society.
Yeah, but not necessarily in the traditional going
to church type of thing. Nope. Nope. It's
the people that are scoring high and becoming.
Yeah. Yeah, they're the ones that are tolerant.
And also, it shows that young people are

(31:27):
just as religious as old people. So this
idea that, like, Gen Z and millennials are
losing religion,
they're just not going to church. But that's
just because they do everything differently. Right? So
as they move away from institutions,
some people say, oh, we're losing them. But
I show that, no. We're not losing young
people. We're still keeping them. They just practice
religion differently, but they're still developing these sorts

(31:50):
of traits that we would want them to
develop. Yeah. And, again, it's keeping the focus
on the transformation. Like, again, I I wanna
reiterate, like, Jesus is the is the answer
to all mortalities,
ills, and and so forth. But I'm just
thinking, like, you have a center daughter who's
maybe like, well, I don't wanna go on
a mission. And it was sort of like,
you know, for me, that that mission was

(32:11):
pivotal. That was a transformational experience. Right? And
so instead of saying, like, okay. You're not
doing the mission. What transformational experience can you
do? Like, I have a nephew, didn't serve
a traditional
mission. However, a few years later, he went
into the air force. And the air force
was a transformational experience that he's I can
see the becoming happening in him. Right? Yeah.
And so whether it's like

(32:31):
you know, let's talk about not the just
the mission, but what transformational experience can you
do
to keep going and keep being,
religious. Right? Yeah. So Same thing for my
son. He joined the army, and it like,
he hated me before he joined the army.
He joined the army, and then, like, yeah,
it was transformative for him. Changed everything for
him. And now he left you. He does.
Right now Right now he loves see how

(32:53):
long that lasts. Well, so this is the
other point, Kurt, that I think is important.
The United States is becoming less Christian. And
so as The United States becomes less Christian,
a lot of members of our church are
afraid
that, like, maybe The United States is, like,
losing its religious
center.
They're worried about the moral decay of society.
And I think that it's just important for

(33:13):
us to recognize that, like,
even though the like, The United States can
become less Christian,
but it's actually becoming more religious. There's this
group they do, it's called the Religion Census,
and they track the number of church congregations
in The United States. And over the last
ten years, the number of religious congregations in
The United States is actually growing. Mhmm. But

(33:34):
it's Muslims
and it's Buddhists and it's Hindus.
So mainline Christianity is on the decline.
So it's like, okay, so if we think
about religion as
like Episcopalians
or Lutherans or Methodists,
then we might say, oh, no, there's all
these problems in America because we're losing religion.
But we're not. We just have to recognize
that, honestly, if you're a Lutheran or a

(33:55):
Methodist or a Hindu or a Muslim, you're
still not a member of our church, right?
So- Yeah. We should, like, be less afraid
about the decline of Christianity
and embrace the growth of religion in The
United States because, overall, that's a net positive
for us even though it means that we
have to start thinking about things differently than
we have in the past. Yeah. So I'm
full of cognitive dissonance right now. So let's

(34:17):
process this because I totally like, on paper,
I'm like, yeah. That's great. I'm so glad
that society is moving in a religious direction.
But give me truth, sir, and I'm like,
we possess a superior
tradition
and religion that has so much more to
offer for those individuals. Right? And so that's
where I'm at, Laura. Yeah. Yeah. I know

(34:38):
a lot of leaders are there too. Like,
well, let's not get excited about people turning
away from Jesus. That's what it sounds like.
You know? But Yeah.
Well, so it's like it's about the net
positive of society. Yeah. Right? So the so
you don't have to be celestial kingdom good.
Everyone in America doesn't have to be celestial
kingdom good for us to have all of
these good things from religion happening in our
society. Mhmm. But what happens if we start

(35:01):
thinking about,
like, well, we're losing Lutherans. Or I don't
know if you know Ryan Birch, but he
had an op ed in the Desert News
recently about how hard it was for him
to lose his mainline
Christian congregation.
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Right? If we think about
this, like in the sadness of like we're
losing Christians,
well, those Christians are really not
on the covenant path. Right? They're not members

(35:23):
of our church. Mhmm. So whether they're Christians
or Muslims or Hindus or whatever,
if there's good that comes from religion and
it's coming into American society,
God's gonna protect us just the same as
if they were Episcopalian
or Lutheran or Methodist. Mhmm. Like, Muslims are
good people too. Hindus are fine people. And
so as a society, we should foster religion
in all of its expressions

(35:43):
because as we're more tolerant of Hindus or
more tolerant of Muslims,
then that creates more tolerance for our faith
too. Yeah. And it allows religion to do
the good stuff in society it's supposed to
do. For sure. And we'll still knock on
their door and say, we have something great.
Religious liberty gives us the right to to
proselyte. Right? Yeah. Yeah. For sure. But if
we say, well, we're afraid of other religions,

(36:04):
then we say, okay. Well, then it's okay
to say, like, if I can pass a
law that says a Muslim can't knock on
my door Mhmm. Then it's easy to change
the word Muslim for a member of the
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.
Right. And then that hurts us too. Yeah.
And I think this is I see this
a lot in just my relationship with pastor
Jeff from Hello Saints where some individuals, they
can't they have a private moment with me.
They're like, alright. Really? Like, is this guy

(36:24):
gonna join the church or not? You know?
Were they Pastor Jeff? Pastor Jeff. Right? But
they're just unsettled with this idea of, like,
well, why should we continue to encourage him
if he's not headed that direction? Where I'm
much more of like, no. I'm not gonna
join his church. He's not gonna join mine.
And but our relationship is beautiful. Right? And
same with, you know, obviously, in Utah, it's

(36:44):
a little more difficult to find
a a variety of of religions, but nonetheless,
it's a that's a valiant like, the interfaith
efforts are really valiant effort to engage in
society with good people, not to convert them,
but to just make society better.
Yeah. So this is the way I think
about it. Let's say that you're an LGBT

(37:04):
individual in San Francisco,
and you hear that there's this event being
put on by members of the Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. There's already
gonna be this automatic sort of bias against
members of our church because you feel like
Prop eight or whatever, like they hate us
and they don't like us and whatever. So
they're not gonna come to the event. But
let's say it's an interfaith event, and there's

(37:25):
Baha'i and there's, like, Reiki and there's Buddhists
and Muslims, and we're there too. Then they're
gonna show up, and then that gives us
an opportunity to introduce Christ to them in
a way we never would have been able
to before. Like, the reality is we're only,
like, what, 17,000,000 people on the entire Earth.
Like, we need as many friends as we
can possibly get.
And building those relationships only enhances our opportunity

(37:47):
to help other people and, ultimately, to share
the gospel with other people. Yeah. Yeah. And
and I think in the long run, that
really helps us in our effort of bringing
inviting people unto Christ is first show them
that those who orient themselves to Christ are
really
religious, like, on the scale. Right? They've probably
never met a member of our church before.
When we were in Kansas, the city we

(38:08):
were in, Lawrence, Kansas, they had what was
called the interfaith
community kitchen. And every religion in the community
had an opportunity
one day a month to provide a free
meal to the homeless or whoever wanted to
come get food. So our church took one
day a month. And so we would one
day a month, we would go serve meals
at this community kitchen. Well, so then that
means that all of these people are now

(38:29):
interacting with our faith, whereas they never would
have a If we had just as a
stake said, you know what? We're gonna once
a month offer a free meal at the
stake center. Nobody's coming to that. Right? But
if it's part of a bigger group, then
people are gonna show up and you take
your turn and then they meet you in
a place they never would have met you.
Yeah. Really good. Really good. Anything else with
politics? So we cover that pretty well. Or
Yeah. Let me just say this this other

(38:50):
thing about religious freedom and religious okay. So
so, typically, if you look at the history
of the world,
religion
and politics
are combined into one. Like, you have a
king and that king is chosen by God
and, like, ordained by the church, and that's
where that power comes from. And so traditionally,
oh, like, if you look at the history
of mankind, religion

(39:10):
is a violent, a negative force in society.
Mhmm. What made The United States truly unique
was we had these various colonies
that were fleeing religious persecution.
And they came here and they said, we
have the Quakers in Pennsylvania. We have the
Puritans in Massachusetts. And they say, we're gonna
create a system of government. We might have
a state religion in Pennsylvania.

(39:30):
We might have a state religion in Massachusetts.
We're not going to have a state religion
in The United States. And it created this
true religious freedom because the Quakers in Pennsylvania
wanted both the freedom to practice their own
religion,
but also they wanted the freedom to have
the Puritans not tell them what to do.
And so we had true religious freedom in

(39:51):
The United States because we
protecting
both our own liberty and everybody else's liberty
at the same time. And that's what made
us so special. Mhmm. But what's happened in
The United States as we've become less Christian
is Christians
are now afraid
that they're like, wait a minute, we're losing
all of the stuff that makes us American.
Because we say, America is a Christian place.

(40:13):
America is a Judeo Christian place. And what
we're losing then is that religious liberty that
is the true foundation of The United States.
And so if we can say,
we want the freedom to practice our religion,
which means they have to have the freedom
to practice their religion however they practice it,
and that will give us true religious freedom.
Like, that's the way you get religious freedom
in The United States context. Right? And that's

(40:36):
the And so, that begins with not being
afraid of
all these other new people that are coming
into our society
doing religion differently. And I think that that
begins with recognizing that they too
are striving for the same things we are
striving for. Mhmm. They want what we want.
Yeah. So we should embrace that and hold
like, welcome that. Mhmm. Encourage that. Yeah. Anything

(40:57):
with what this looks like in a ward
or you know, I think, generally, we're discouraged
from talking politics at church for a lot
of these reasons. But, I mean, should we
do that, or is there more
more of this transformation talk we can discover
in that context?
I think that what we should do in
terms of religion and politics in church is
we should recognize it's kind of like what

(41:18):
I was saying about my students.
Our political views are so tightly connected
to where we were raised and how we
were raised, and they're so tightly connected to
our faith
that if in church you start to peel
away Mhmm. Those sorts of things, you really
risk tearing down people's faith. I had to
learn this as a professor because I did

(41:38):
sometimes I would see that I was students
were losing faith in Jesus Christ because we
were talking about political ideas that to me
weren't even at all related. And I was
like, you just gotta be so careful.
And this is what's happening to a lot
of Christian congregations in The United States. As
they become more political,
they're losing members because the members are like,
I don't want any part of that. Mhmm.
And so we have to be so careful.

(41:59):
Like, in a Sunday school class, we're talking
about something, and they say, what's an example
of that? If you throw out some political
example,
you really risk tearing down a person's faith
even though it doesn't even seem connected to
that in your own mind. Yeah. You have
to be so careful about that. Yeah. And
I guess because I just think of, like,
the divide
that we often is often referenced. You know?

(42:19):
You see it on social media, and that's
a whole another thing. But, like, people often
describe it. We're so divided because of politics.
And so but I'm thinking, like, well, if
I'm in a relationship, in my marriage, if
we're divided about something, we should, like, dialogue
on that and talk more about it. And
and then we're at the same time, we're
told, don't talk about it in church or
those things where I'm like, well, if we
can't talk about it in church, what happens

(42:40):
is we go home, we sort of passively
talk about it on social media, and then
we sort of secretly hate each other because
nothing's even being communicated. Right? But are there
are things in your relationship where you start
to unpack it, and one or you or
your spouse will say, this isn't the time
to do this. Like, we're not ready for
this. Right. And I think that's the challenge
in award.
Like, I guess if you're an award family

(43:01):
where everyone feels included, everyone feels loved and
feels like they belong, okay, fine. Like, let's
dig into the deeper stuff. But I think
we have to work a lot more on
like, the love and the belonging and all
that stuff. Mhmm. Like, I think when it
comes to politics, that's one of those things
where you say, we just shouldn't touch that.
Like, we're not in a state in our
relationship where we're ready to go. We're not

(43:23):
ready to take that step. Yeah. And I
guess I can think of, like, instances where,
you know, I've developed a relationship with an
individual or two where it's gotten to that
place where we love and respect each other
enough that we can bring up opposing political
views and we're not like, well, now we
can't talk. You know? It it just strengthens
the relationship, and we're good. Right? Yeah. It's
kinda weird. Like so I lived in Logan

(43:44):
for a while, and then I moved back
to my home ward in Rexburg, but they
had changed ward boundaries. So there were people
there who knew me, and there were people
there who didn't know me.
And it's interesting because I'm a political scientist.
So when we talk politics,
like, people don't know what to make of
like the things that I say political. And
I can see that they're very confused because
oftentimes they're like, but you're faithful in the
church. Like, why are you doing that about?

(44:06):
And and June, right? June is pride month,
so I hang up my pride flag, I
hang up my Juneteenth flag, and then I
hang up this flag that says join or
die. It's back in the original 13 colonies,
this Benjamin Franklin thing, right? Where it's like,
we have to come together as a society
or we're gonna fall apart. Right? So it's
like me saying, I love our, LGBT members

(44:26):
of the church. That's why I have a
pride flag up to let them know we
love them. I love our African American church
members. That's why there's the Juneteenth flag. And
this other flag is for all the rest
of us that are offended by those flags
to say, come together. Like, that's what matters.
But that creates so much dissonance in my
ward. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And my neighbors
across the street hung up an American
a USA flag. Right? And so then all

(44:46):
of these people are like, are you guys
feuding with each other that he's got the
pride flag so you've got the USA flag?
And it's like, no, it's not.
But it's so connected. Right? It's so hard
for people to like And this is a
conversation you have to have. Like, if I
hang up a pride flag, the immediate assumption
is something. Right? Yeah. And unless I know
them well enough to have a conversation or
unless they know me, it really does, like,

(45:08):
change the way they think about me as
a member of the Church of Jesus Christ
of Latter day Saints. Yeah. Which is why
it's so hard to have those conversations at
church. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know if
your ward's like this. Have you noticed like
politically,
people will sort of like form friend groups
based on where they're at politically?
And so then it does It actually creates
division within the ward because they're like, Well,
of course you said that because you're a

(45:29):
Republican. Well, of course you said that because
you had the pride flag hanging up. Like,
it it it actually hurts our ability to,
like, see past Yeah. The worldly things. Yeah.
And that's where and especially from a church
leader standpoint, like,
is it better to kinda remain in the,
like, the the unknown where people don't necessarily
know where you stand? Because I'm thinking, like,
even Oh, yeah. On a general level, like,

(45:51):
you think back to the fifties, sixties, seventies
where it was very clear where where elder
elder Benson stood. It was very clear where
he be bound Brown stood. And they almost
had these, like, well, I'm gonna share my
perspective and that perspective. Right? And it created
some conflict a little bit or some, like,
how what's going on here? What should I
make of this? However, at least you knew
where they're stood. Where now it's more of,

(46:13):
like, it's a very unified message, which makes
sense, but nobody
and so without that clear indicators, we assume,
oh, that's because they're on our side. Right?
And then I can talk to somebody on
the other side. Well, they're actually on our
side. Well, like, what is going on? You're
right. Just confuse it almost creates more confusion
by not putting the flag in your yard.
So church leaders are often like, I'm not
putting any flags on my yard, but then

(46:34):
I don't know. Does that Yeah. Hurt or
help? You know? Yeah. That's a tough question.
I had a couple of so I remember
when I was in Kansas. It was a
university ward, but it was geographically diverse. And
so we had people on every end of
the spectrum, and they would bring up everything
in church. And so you always knew where
everyone stood. And it was a little less
divisive
because it wasn't the way Rexburg is. Right?
It wasn't like there are two people on
one side and everybody else on the other

(46:56):
side. So it was maybe if you got
a ward with more diverse views, maybe you
can do that. But the other thought I
had is I was thinking about Elder Anderson's
talk on abortion in the last general conference.
Mhmm. He says in that talk, this isn't
about politics, this is about morality. But if
you talk to people,
like, everybody saw that talk through a political

(47:16):
lens. Not everybody, but, like, my kids. Right?
They're like, I can't believe he's talking about
abortion and women's rights and all. Like, he's
not talking about the politics of abortion. He's
talking about the moral principle of abortion.
And by the way, you could read that
talk and you could support Democrats because there's
things in that talk that Democrats are supporting.
Or you could read that talk and support
Republicans because there's things that the Republicans are

(47:36):
doing. Like, there was nothing clearly partisan at
all in what he said in that talk.
But you can't even bring up the issue
in church without filtering through politics. Right. Yeah.
And that's and to me, that's more of
the broader society to blame than necessarily the
church because the it's the only time we
hear about politics in the broader society is
in a political context. And so it's almost

(47:58):
we almost can't process it outside of that
when it's tried to talk about in a
religious context or a moral context.
Right? So then as a leader, you have
to be aware of that. Yeah. You have
to know that if you stand up to
talk about the morality of abortion,
there are people in that congregation that will
not be able to, like, take off their
partisan lens when they hear that. Yeah. And
so that's gonna have other effect. So I'm

(48:19):
not saying you shouldn't do it. I'm just
saying you like I had to as a
professor, you just have to recognize, like, what
baggage comes along with that. And if you
wanna bring that up, you have to be
really gentle in, like, how you take those
layers down because you don't wanna destroy faith.
And you really it's hard to say like
that you it's hard to imagine that I
could destroy somebody's faith

(48:39):
by supporting, I don't know, Mike Lee in
church, right? But you actually can.
Because for some people, those things are so
closely tied together that you talking about how
much you love Mike Lee is going to
sound to them like you're talking about how
much you love Satan, right? And they're like,
How does somebody allow that to happen in
church?
It's it's weird. And to me, I guess

(49:00):
that's the the conundrum is, like,
then, therefore, we just don't talk about any
of it as if that's solving a problem.
Right? Or, again, it goes back to your
list already. Yeah. Yeah. I I guess I
would say I would say it's like this.
There's things we talk about in elders quorum
that we don't talk about in sunbeams. Right?
And there's things we talk about in there's
just a time and place for things.

(49:21):
I would say award council could be a
wonderful time to have a discussion about something
like that. Mhmm. Because it that's a form
in which if it mattered, you could do
it in the right way. Mhmm. But a
Sunday school lesson where somebody's gonna raise their
hand and say one thing and someone's gonna
raise their hand and say another thing, and
then we're gonna just have, like, crusty feelings
about it at the end. Like Yeah. Doesn't
seem in the right place. Or a sacrament
meeting talk where there's no chance for rebuttal,

(49:43):
and then there's like, did the bishop stand
up and correct them afterwards? And then if
the bishop does stand up and correct them,
then what what message that sends. Right? So
there's just time and place. Well, this is
tough because, you know, like, elder
Anderson is trying to stand for a belief
we hold dearly. Right? And I kinda feel
like a lot of these things get pulled
into these political lenses.

(50:03):
Like, for instance, the family proclamation has suddenly
kinda been pulled in there where For sure.
It's like we're stating a very clear beliefs.
But if if you have a talk in
sacrament about the family proclamation, sometimes people are
like, wait a minute. What what's going on
here? And so it's it's tricky because it's
like we should talk about those things in
my opinion, but, again, it's about the being
delicate, being some will see this only through

(50:24):
a political lens, and we have to maybe
say, those of you that are suddenly
processing this through, you know, you're feeling some
emotion come up or, like, just step back.
Let's just talk about these eternal truths as
we believe them. You know? I don't know.
Yeah. I think as a leader, rather than
assigning a topic, the proclamation to the world
on the family Mhmm. I would just choose
a part of it. Just choose one part

(50:45):
of it, and then it will not turn
on those partisan lenses. Yeah. Even if it's
a controversial part. Right? It doesn't sound but
even if it's marriages between a man and
a woman. Right? Like, that's an important doctrine
to teach.
That might turn on some partisan lenses or
whatever. But it really is I guess the
way I would say it is this, it's
really hard to get upset

(51:05):
at pure doctrine. Mhmm. Right? The Holy Ghost
will be there to testify when you're teaching
truth. And so the closer you can stay
to the trunk of the tree,
then the the better you're off you're gonna
be. And so if I say talk about
the proclamation, you don't know where they're gonna
go with that. Right? But if you say
here's a truth in the proclamation that I
want you to focus on, then that keeps
them closer to the trunk of the tree.

(51:25):
Right. So let's just wrap this up with,
like, give us you're standing in front of
a room of church leaders with these concepts.
I I guess some principles that come to
mind is, yes, people leave the church. They
leave our religion. That doesn't necessarily mean they
are you know, we throw the word damnation
around as as in you're stopped. Like, there
will still be

(51:45):
sanctification,
transformation that can happen to them and, of
course, will always be just like god encouraging
them back to his covenant path. But any
other like, what does this all mean for
church leaders if you're in setting in front
of a room of leaders?
Yeah. What I think it means is when
I look at the scores,
we are doing a really good job teaching
transcendence.

(52:06):
We're doing a great job of teaching people
you need to have a connection with God.
We're doing a worse job, a not so
good a job of teaching
love for our neighbors.
We're doing not so great at teaching people
humility
and this idea of avoiding gluttony and those
sorts of things. I think that it points
to gospel principles

(52:26):
that we emphasize maybe not quite so much.
And for me, if I were a church
leader, what I would take away from this
is we should focus more on
the gospel of Jesus Christ
more than the steps that but the gospel
of Jesus Christ is so much more than
the steps. Right? So I'd say, let's focus
on, like, the holistic
gospel

(52:46):
and weigh less on, are you doing this,
are you doing that sort of things. Yeah.
The last question I have for you is
as well, first of all, if people do
wanna check out the book,
is it, like, is it an easy read?
Are we talking academics? It's an academic book.
I really tried to make it accessible to
the general public. My sister Melissa is not
gonna read the book.

(53:07):
Bless her heart. Yeah. And it's okay. Honestly,
like, it is a tough read. It's something
you and it's expensive, but, there's Like all
academic books. Right? Right. You can check it
out from the BYU library. You can check
it out from any academic library. But we'll
put a discount code in that you can
get it for 50% off if you want.
But I think it's worth a read. You
can see all the questions in there, and,

(53:29):
there's more details.
But it's hard for me to know. So
this is weird, Kurt. I write books, but
I don't read books. So I don't know
if it's a good read or a bad
read.
I enjoyed it. Oh, good. Good. And I
know you have another project a podcast project
that you get on and discuss fascinating topics
like this. Yeah. The latter day lens. So

(53:49):
it's me. It used to be two other
mission buddies, but now it's just a a
collection of hosts who are faithful members of
the church. We disagree about politics.
So we'll argue about, like, these sorts of
well, so Kurt says we should be able
to, like, fight about politics without destroying our
faith. I think we can do that there
because we have a relationship. And so that's
what we try to do. Like, we go
on. We we talk about the issues of

(54:10):
the day. We disagree. Sometimes we agree. But
in the end, it's faith promoting. It's all
about building faith in Christ while talking about
contentious issues.
Love it. Last question I have for you
is as you reflect on your time, I
want you to go back to your time
as a as a church leader Mhmm. As
a bishop. How has being a a bishop,
a church leader, helped you become a better
follower of Jesus Christ?
So it's really interesting. Like, I was called

(54:33):
to be a bishop at a time in
my life when my family was about to
fall apart and I didn't even know it.
And while I was a bishop, like, my
family was crumbling.
And looking back,
the things I learned as a bishop gave
me the tools I needed to
bring my family back together, to put all
the pieces back together again. Ultimately, I know

(54:54):
that it was Jesus Christ that saved us.
I know that, like, we never could have
done that without his help. I have a
painting in my office
that everybody laughs at because they think it's
an ugly painting, but I'm like, but this
painting is my family
as we were falling apart and didn't even
know it. And it's always a reminder of,
like, where we were and how it just
crumbled and then how Christ put it back

(55:15):
together again. So being a bishop was one
of the hardest things I ever did, but
it it really it taught me what I
needed to know to do my part in
putting our family back together again.
That concludes this episode of the Leading Saints
podcast. We'd love to hear from you about

(55:35):
your questions or thoughts or comments. You can
either leave a comment on the, post related
to this episode at leadingsaints.org,
or go to leadingsaints.org/contact
and send us your perspective or questions. If
there's other episodes or topics you'd like to
hear on the Leading Saints podcast, go to
leadingsaints.org/contact
and share with us the information there. And
we would love for you to share this

(55:56):
with any individual you think this would apply
to, especially maybe individuals in your ward council
or other leaders that you may know who
would really appreciate the perspectives that we discussed.
It came as a result of the position

(56:18):
of leadership which was imposed upon us
by the God of heaven who brought forth
a restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
When the declaration
was made concerning the
only true and living Church upon the face
of the earth,
we were immediately put in a position of

(56:39):
loneliness,
the loneliness
of leadership
from which we cannot shrink nor run away,
and to which we must face up with
boldness and courage
and ability.