How I Lead as a Coach and a Catholic | An Interview with Frank Layden

This is a rebroadcast. The episode originally ran in September 2019. Frank Layden was a beloved basketball coach and executive best known for his time with the Utah Jazz. While he achieved tremendous professional success—earning NBA Coach of the Year, Executive of the Year, and the J. Walter Kennedy Citizenship Award all in 1984—it was his warmth, humor, and larger-than-life personality that truly defined him. Known for his self-deprecating wit and quick one-liners, Layden brought levity to the game and was deeply respected by players, colleagues, and fans alike. Beyond basketball, Layden was cherished for his kindness, community involvement, and ability to connect with people on a personal level. He had a gift for making others feel valued, often using laughter to lift those around him. Even in retirement, he remained a vibrant part of the Salt Lake City community. Frank Layden passed away on July 9, 2025, at the age of 93, leaving behind a legacy of leadership and compassion. Links Share your thoughts in the Leading Saints community Transcript coming soon Get 14-day access to the Core Leader Library Highlights Early Experiences & Utah Transition 00:03:34 Involvement with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints; reflections on what President Thomas S. Monson said about him 00:05:24 How he ended up in Utah with the Jazz 00:09:03 First knowledge of and interactions with members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 00:10:15 Approach to sports and Utah’s culture: “What can we do to help here?” Focused on building relationships over highlighting differences. Personal and Professional Philosophy 00:12:44 How he became a coach - Belief that his family was meant to be in Utah - Building the Jazz from a losing team into a contender - Perspective on success: You won’t always succeed, and shouldn’t measure success by money. Prioritize doing what you love and service. 00:17:48 The Jazz’s efforts to help players and their families grow off the court: - Wives club activities: fashion shows, making Christmas trees, supporting education - Interfaith chapel service with Rev. France Davis and Pastor Jerry Lewis - Bonuses for players who finished college degrees Leadership & Team Management 00:20:10 When players feel coaches support them, they give their all. 00:22:37 Emphasis on making each player feel loved; daily question: “What can I do for you today?” 00:24:58 The importance of small things: punctuality, readiness, balancing authority and discipline 00:28:20 Players must believe in you, and you must believe in yourself. - Understanding who needs motivation vs. encouragement 00:32:47 Establishing leadership: the team must know who leads - “Winning is not a sometimes thing; it starts the first day of practice.” Relationship-Building & Daily Culture 00:39:42 Building one-on-one connections with players - Creating comfort for players to approach leadership - Listening to them (examples include book club and shared reading) - Encouraging professional appearance - Mutual respect and adult treatment fosters loyalty 00:42:50 Players can sense if you enjoy your job. Reflection on Faith & Community 00:48:22 How being part of Utah’s religious community enhanced his experience as a Catholic 00:53:04 Takeaways and Leadership Principles The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints' mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish,

Episode Transcript

(00:04):
It seems like struggles with pornography get mostly
airtime these days since it is so available
in modern times. However,
drug abuse and substance addiction is growing at
shocking rates.
As a church leader, you need to be
prepared.
We have a library full of resources
focused on this topic.
The presentation I would recommend you start with

(00:26):
is Joseph Grenny's presentation about what we can
learn from Captain Moroni to help our loved
ones overcome struggles with drugs and alcohol.
His story of how he loved his son
through his addiction is powerful and redemptive.
You can listen to this presentation in the
recovering saints library by going to leadingsaints.org/fourteen.

(00:46):
Put your information in there and that will
give you fourteen days at no cost.
I made it easier for you and put
the link in the show notes
or you can go to leadingsaints.org/1four.
The following episode is a throwback episode, one
that was published previously and was extremely popular.
To see the details of when this was
originally published, see the show notes. Enjoy this

(01:09):
throwback episode.
Welcome back to the Leading Saints podcast. My
name is Kurt Franckam, and I'll be your
host. Now, if you're new to the Leading

(01:30):
Saints podcast, this is an organization
where we produce a podcast. And that podcast
is always about leadership in the context of
being a better Latter day Saint leader. So
if you're new, we welcome you. And we
hope that you'll share with friends. You'll keep
listening and listen to many other episodes that
you can jump into, plenty of content to
peruse. Now, in this episode is a unique

(01:51):
episode because I interview
Frank Leighton. Now Frank Leighton was the coach
of the Utah Jazz from 1981
to 1989.
He was instrumental
in drafting and signing franchise
mainstays
like John Stockton and Karl Malone to the
club. In 1984,
Leighton was awarded the NBA's
coach of the year. The same season, he

(02:12):
also won the NBA's executive of the year
and most recently received the 2019
Chuck Daly Lifetime Achievement
Award. For those of you who have lived
in Utah, you know
that he is a gem in our community.
An Irish Catholic from Brooklyn, New York, Coach
Layden came to Utah unexpectedly
when the New Orleans Jazz became the Utah
Jazz. He fell in love with the area

(02:33):
and community and now lives in Downtown Salt
Lake City with his wife, Barbara. Now though
coach Layton doesn't have a Latter day Saint
background, I jumped at the opportunity
to interview him because he's such a unique
leader in the Latter day Saint Utah community.
He shares some remarkable leadership principles in this
interview. You gotta pay close attention to and
they all apply to coaching obviously, but many

(02:55):
of them, if not all of them apply
to leading as a Latter day Saint. So
coach Layton jumped right into a story, when
I handed him the mic. So I hit
record as quickly as I can. So you're
gonna
jump into the this conversation as it goes.
Now stay tuned till the end of the
interview where I'll share some of my takeaway
and some of the principles that really stood
out to me in this interview that, I

(03:17):
thought were genius,
approaches to leadership. So here is my interview
with coach Frank Laden, former Utah jazz head
coach and one of Utah's favorite Catholics.
This is what mister Mack said one time.
The guy the guy that builds the ladders.

(03:38):
You know? You ever see it on TV,
the ladders?
Yeah. Is that his name? He has the
ladders, the crazy ladders. Well, we saw him
put on a little exhibition. We were at
some kind of an outing or something like
that. And afterwards, I would get introduced and
everything, and we go to them. Mister Mack
was standing next to me, and he said,
this guy, whoever he was, he was a
fan of the candidate, and he says, oh,
I've heard you speak, and I know what

(04:00):
you've done and everything. He says, have you
thought about joining the church? So I said,
well, I thought I was in the church,
but,
anyway,
I haven't really given much consideration.
And mister Max says to the guy, leave
him alone. He says he's more help to
us outside the church than in it. Wow.
He goes, Frank Leighton's a friend of ours.

(04:20):
Nice. He says, and he sells us, he
says, more than if he were in the
church. Wow. You know? And I said that
that was quite a compliment, I thought. You
know? Yeah. For sure. And, of course,
president Monson said one time when I was
speaking at a dinner, after it was over,
I kidded about needing a green card to
get into Provo
and, you know,

(04:40):
what have you. Being being,
the honor code was being administered to me.
I didn't even know it. But, anyway, when
I got over, he, he said,
and I thought this was wonderful. He said,
Frank Leighton is one of our treasures,
he says, because he makes us laugh
at ourselves.
Oh, that's great. President Monson. Yeah. Yes. Wow.

(05:00):
And I bet that you didn't expect yourself
to end up in Utah. Right? No. No.
In fact, I tell my friends back in
Brooklyn that I'm here in the witness protection
program.
It's working, I mean, how how do you
get to Utah? I thought Utah was in
Europe when I was growing up. Are you
kidding me? Holy cow. And so

(05:21):
for those I mean, they may not know
a little bit of the history. I mean,
they you were first hired by the New
Orleans jazz. Right? Yes.
I,
had been
I grew up in Brooklyn, New York, streets
in New York, single parent. My mother died
when I was born and my my childbirth.
Oh, wow. So,
anyway, I remember my coaches early on saying,

(05:42):
if you, get good grades and you play
ball or something, you may be able to
get a scholarship to college. Now if I
don't get a scholarship to college, maybe I
go some other way, but because in New
York City, you you can go to school
free. I mean, you can go
to City College in New York, Brooklyn College,
all those schools. I said, but but playing
ball sounded good too, and that's what happened
to me. You know? I I had coaches

(06:04):
who believed in me and worked with me,
and and eventually, I got a scholarship to
college, and I got into coaching
and teaching. For ten years, I was a
school teacher. On which teacher? Bust of history.
History. I was a history teacher. Yeah. Ten
years. Wow. I had been I had been
in the service. I had been in the
ROTC in the Korean War and and what
have you as an officer. And and when

(06:24):
I got out, I didn't know what I
was gonna do. And my college coach says,
you you should go into coaching. You should
work with kids. And so that's what I
that's how I started. So then I went
from there to a small college, then eventually
from a small college, Dowling College on Long
Island to Saint John's, which is a big
college, and from there to, eventually, to

(06:44):
the,
Niagara University where I played and coached and
then to the Atlanta Hawks as an assistant
coach. And I left the the Hawks to
go with the New Orleans Jazz.
And before I blinked,
alright, here I was moving to to Utah.
Utah. Because, at that time, Wanda Lachey, who
was the, the publisher of the Deseret News,

(07:06):
was working very hard after the loss of
the stars here and the ABA team to
get an another team here, an NBA team
preferably.
And Sam Battistone was a member of the
church. He was a a LDS,
and he had children at BYU. And they
they talked and what have you. And finally,
they persuaded him to come to Salt Lake

(07:26):
City. And the whole idea was to come
play here, establish ourselves,
and then to build an arena,
which eventually happened down the line. So, you
know, I came home to Barbara. I'm gonna
never forget, and I told her is,
that I would,
I said, well, I've got good news and
bad news. She says, what's the good news?
I said, the good news is I got

(07:47):
the job at the Jazz. She said, well,
that's great. So what's the bad news? I
says, we're moving to Salt Lake City, Utah.
And
she said, where is that? In England?
So and what was your, perception of Utah
at this point in your life? Been here.
Yeah. I'd been I knew Jack Gardner, and

(08:08):
I knew Stan Watts.
I had had a relationship with Stan Watts
through my college coach. They were in the
navy together, and they knew each other. And,
they had great respect for one another, and
and I had met him. And we had
played actually, we played against that great, team,
that great BYU team in Madison Square Garden.
I think, you know, who did they have,

(08:30):
Roland Minson and
who was who was miss America's brother was,
Mel Hutchins. And that was a great team
on the NIT. But, anyway,
so and then after I had coached Niagara,
when I was coaching at Niagara, we played
we played BYU. We played in the Marriott
Center, and we also played up in Buffalo
Yeah. Which was was wonderful. You know? The

(08:50):
the LDS people were coming from everywhere to
see their team play, to see them lose,
by the way. But that no. I'm not
kidding. We exchange losses. Right. Right. So did
you have as far as your, you had
1% of them Utah, but any interaction with,
Mormons before coming to Utah?
No. Only a knocking on my door
and

(09:11):
and inviting me things. I give them a
sandwich and send them on that way. Yeah.
Well, good. Yeah. You know, one of the
things early in in my career, I went
to the, governor,
and, I think it was governor Bangerter at
the time. It might not have been it
might have been, Matheson. But, anyway, I said,
you know what? You should use me to
like, they do Tally Savalas. Remember the the

(09:33):
ads when Tally Savalas used to be on
used to sell Las Vegas? You say, I'm
Telesavelas,
and I live in Las Vegas. This is
a great place for families to move and
Uh-huh. Because everybody's afraid to move to to,
Las Vegas because of the gambling and stuff
like that. And he used to say, and
it's a great place to raise kids and
all that. So I said, you know what?
I should go out and say, I'm Frank

(09:53):
Layton. You all know me coaching the jazz.
Well, I'm from Brooklyn, New York, but my
home now is Salt Lake City, Utah, and
this is a great place to bring. And
everybody thought that was a great idea
as some people, but there's a lot of
denial here. And a lot of people said,
what's the problem? Nobody knows the difference. Something
like that. So, anyway, that was it. But
no. No. I I get along with people.

(10:15):
Yeah. You know? And, so, you know, I
I find that by
going forward and saying, where can I help?
And that's how I think the jazz when
we weren't very good, what do we have
to sell? We had to sell service.
We had to sell sell the idea that
we were here, that we were gonna make
this community better. We weren't gonna hurt college

(10:36):
basketball.
I mean, you know, with the great teams
you had here, you know, the Ladel Andersons
and the and the,
you know, Jack Gardners and those kind of
guys coaching here. So, you know, we, we
came in with the idea. I said, I
one of the first things I did, I
went to the the school
activities,
groups and said, look at, what can we

(10:56):
do to make sports in Utah better? And
they said, well, you could help us by
not playing on Friday nights. I said, we
can do that. Yeah. Sure. We'll we'll help
that. And we put on clinics, coaches clinic,
kids clinics. We started junior jazz. Oh, yeah.
By the way, the biggest the biggest
thing in the whole country Yeah. Little League.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was like Little League
basketball,

(11:17):
and we had over a 110,000
kids playing. A 110,000
I was one of those kids. In five
states. Yeah. And in fact, it's a model
now for the NBA Yeah. To use. And
then the idea that I'd go out and
speak and meet and, you know, and whether
it was, you know, to me,
being Irish Catholic Democrat, I know I could

(11:39):
get my group and meet in a phone
booth.
But you know what? People stand up and
listen. People are willing to share, and that's
what we try to do. Yeah. And I
I've always believed in that. I I always
felt I could get along with people and
try to I I always knew this. I
always knew who the home team was here.
Yeah. Alright? And I always knew it was
a club I couldn't get into. So

(12:00):
I just I tried to obey the rules,
live a good life, and bring up a
family here Sure. And add add to the
culture that was already here, and, hopefully, it
was, it was in a good way. Yeah.
And you it has been. I mean, you've
added a lot to You know what? I
think one of the things that's happened is
is being honored by the by the, by
BYU. Yeah. Alright? The the business society

(12:23):
having their dinners,
and then I I lit the y Yeah.
At a game one year. I had Lavelle
had me come in and speak to the
the team before a game one day.
Last year, just last year, Barbara and I
were on it at a BYU basketball game,
which they were playing my alma mater at
the at the Marriott Center. And so, you
know, we've tried to keep up a relationship.

(12:45):
There was no jealousy.
Yeah. You know, I always felt there was
room for everybody.
There's no bad cities or bad states. There's
only bad teams. Mhmm. You know, if you're
good, you'll make it. There's room for everybody.
Yeah. You know, and I always think of
this. The year 1984,
what does that mean to the people that
are LDS that have a connection with BYU?
That was that was the national championship. The

(13:07):
national championship football team. That's right. 1984
was also the first time the Jazz made
the playoffs.
All right. Yeah. Yeah. And, and that was
a big year for both. Yeah. For sure.
There was room for everybody. Yeah. And, and
so I think if you if you go
about it that way,
you'll be just fine. Yeah. For sure. Yeah.
So going back to your, career, I mean,

(13:28):
as a player, did you are always know
you'd end up in coaching? I mean, was
that the No. No. No. You know why?
Because I always saw coaches
as kinda belabored. You know? They they never
seem to be paid enough. They they always
were being you know? Hell, you win, you're
fine, you lose. You know? You're famous for
a little while. You know? I admired coaches,
and I knew some of the great ones.

(13:49):
I I'm very fortunate to say that that
I considered,
Johnny Wooding a close friend, not just a
friend. Really? Well I knew Vince Lombardi, you
know, and then crossing over into different sports.
You know?
Red
Red Holzman,
was a good friend. We played for the
same high school coach. I had a wonderful
high school coach, mister Drucker. By the way,

(14:10):
I still call him mister Drucker. You know?
I signed him to a one day contract
so he could sit on the bench with
the Jazz and Oh, really? Assistant coach in
the NBA per day. And, mister Gallagher, my
my high school co my college coach was
a had a wonderful influence on me. And
we always seemed to have room, you know,
when we didn't have we didn't
we weren't poor when we were kids. We

(14:31):
just didn't have any money. But we always
had spikes and gloves and, you know, whatever
we needed Yeah. To
to to progress. To play. And so, you
know, moving here
and and I I don't say this in
a corny way. I think it was there
was something spiritual about it. Really? I think
we came out here for a reason, and
we could live anywhere in the world now,

(14:52):
my barber and I, but we chose to
live here and our children are lived here.
But I really think that we're here because
we add a certain balance Yeah. To this,
to this community. Yeah. It's been a great
balance. I needed balance for sure. So when
you did come out here, did you feel
like you were getting a break? I mean,
this is your first NBA professional head coaching
position. Wasn't sure because I had the worst

(15:12):
team in the history of basketball. Yeah. I
mean, nobody could win win with this, Jazz.
I can't So where do you start with
that? Well, the first coach was was Tom
Nusilke. Mhmm. And, and he eventually got fired.
He, you know, he was a good coach,
a very good coach, but you could nobody
could win. We just didn't have any players.
It took a little time. And you know
what? You can you can work hard at
scouting and and looking at players and but

(15:34):
everybody's doing that. You have to get a
little lucky. Yeah. You know? And all of
a sudden, you know, certain pieces fell into
and I'm not talking about Malone and Stockton.
They're they're supposed to be. Man. But it
was how about, you know, getting a guy
like Bobby Hanson or Ricky Green who had
been to mind leagues for five years. I'd
been I'd I'd never really every time he

(15:54):
came to the to the NBA, he, he
didn't make it. Mhmm. But we were a
team that was hungry for help, and he
turned out to be just right. Yeah. He
was great. I thought he was the first
great player we we really got. And, and
then Mark Eaton. Yeah. You know, who never
played in college, never played in high school,
you know, play he sat on the bench
at UCLA. He was great in the team

(16:15):
picture. Turned out to be an all star
with us. Yeah. He You know? And so
and then, Jerry Sloan, who had who had,
you know, coached at Chicago
and got fired there, came with us and
coached his way into the hall of fame.
Yeah. You know? And so, yeah, it's you
gotta but you gotta get lucky. You gotta
first, you gotta get the opportunity

(16:35):
to get it. And there's only there's only
30 jobs,
so you gotta make the most of them.
But there should be service involved. I really
believe that there's a couple of things I
think I the Peace Corps. That was one
of our most successful things in selling American
standards around the world.
What good, I wonder, is done by the
by the missionaries,

(16:55):
not just in conversion
to the Mormon church or bringing bringing new
people into the
the the Mormon church, into the LDS church.
But what about how
people see them? These clean-cut
youngsters, you know, going around the world, they
see these as as healthy American
kids trying to do something good. And it's

(17:16):
not, oh, I I knew some some young
ladies from BYU. They were on a mission,
and they were they were giving injections,
you know, inoculations and wrapping bandages and helping
in clinics and stuff around the world. And
that stuff is what we need. We need
to to reinsert ourselves in terms of service.
And I always felt this way, even when
I was coaching the pros, that I wanted

(17:38):
the players
to be better intellectually
when they left us than they were when
they came with us. And I think they
were. I think in most cases, they were.
How did you go about doing that or
installing? By instituting certain things that hadn't been
done before. We started a wives' club.
The wives are lonely. Their husbands are away.
Their husbands are the big stars. They're married

(17:58):
when they're young kids. And so we started
a wives' club and gave them some duties,
such as, as,
putting on shows, clothing, or what do you
call it? Modeling
Fashion shows. Fashion shows and raising money. And
then, the Christmas tree. We got into the
Christmas tree business and and and we won
the award one year. We had victories all

(18:19):
covered with shoes and shirts of the players.
And and then some of the some of
the young ladies, we'd ask them in interviews,
what were you gonna do before you get
married? Oh, I wanted to be a nurse.
Well, why don't you be a nurse? I'll
give you an example. Adrienne Danley's wife came.
She says, I wanted to be a lawyer.
Well, why didn't you go to law school?
She went to law school. She's a lawyer
now. Oh, wow. Yeah. You know, so in
other words, they had dreams that they didn't

(18:41):
necessarily have to give them up because they
got married. You know, they could still go
on with their lives. And and so, you
know, and and we took care of the
kids. Then we started a chapel service, you
know, after these these guys get out of
school, away from their families, everything else. Their
mothers, they didn't go to church anymore. So,
you know, we got the the reverend Franz

(19:03):
Davis. Oh, yeah. Alright. And we had another,
a minister in town by the name of,
Jerry Lewis Mhmm. Of all names, but he
was a great guy. He's died recently. A
wonderful Christian gentleman, and we had, we had
services
on, once a week, and we invited the
wives to come. We invited the other teams
to join us. Sometimes players were suspicious
of why we would do that. They thought

(19:24):
we were softening their teams up, but but
sometimes players would come from other teams. We
also gave a bonus
to players who finished, their college degrees.
A lot of them quit college early, or
they don't finish
their degrees before they grad they get out,
and they go into the pros. And there's
a lot of satisfaction.
I can remember missus Stanley saying the proudest

(19:46):
time in her life wasn't when her son
was on the, all star team where he
was he was captain of the Olympic team
that won a gold medal. He won the
national scoring championship in college. He won it
in the in the NBA. It was when
he walked down the aisle at Notre Dame
and got his diploma. Wow. That's fantastic. You
know? Yeah. She said that was the proudest
moment of my life. And I think as

(20:08):
a parent, that's how I would feel, too.
So it sounds like I mean, it's easy,
is it, for a coach to just get
hyper focused on their players, the wins and
losses. But to look outside of that, I
mean, that's where winning is gonna come from
is is if you take care of everything.
Happens is if the players
feel
that you are for them, they will give
it everything for you. You know, mercenaries can
win, too. I mean, let's face it. Johnny

(20:30):
Wooden tells us that good coaches are one
who win when they have good players.
Some coaches lose with good players, and they
should go in to do something else for
a living. But it isn't just about winning.
I remember one time Larry Miller getting mad
at me when I said that some of
my greatest games
were losses.
I mean, I can remember being at war
with with Pat Riley. Yeah. And we're playing,

(20:52):
you know, maybe the greatest team in the
history of basketball, Kareem and Worthy and and,
you know,
Magic Johnson and stuff. I mean, who were
we playing?
You know? And we we'd give them everything
they they had. You know? And that was
great. Even when we lost a great series
with them seven seven games. Yeah. Barely lost.
After it was over, I said to Pat

(21:12):
you know, we were friends from even before,
being in in coaching.
He was from Brooklyn originally. People don't realize
it. And then he lived in the Albany
area and then went to Kentucky. But I
said, hey, Pat. Was that funny? He says,
it sure was. You know? I mean, yeah.
Somebody wins, somebody lose. I can live with
that as long as you give it everything
you got. And I wanted our players
to leave us with the idea that that

(21:33):
we really did love them, and we used
to hug. We had a little a ritual
with the jazz players. We would hug, and
we still do it when we see each
other and say, what can I do for
you today, man?
What can I do for you today? It
isn't always about basketball. Basketball is a part
of it. And, you know, if you spread
that into all walks of life and in
everything we do, you know, we try to

(21:55):
get it. We try to get it. We,
you know, we need we patriotism starts like
that. Patriotism
starts with a handshake. Yeah. And that's what
a salute is. A salute is a handshake,
you know, in the army and stuff like
that. It's a it's a hello. How are
you? And I think,
we need more of that. You know, I
I've also realized that just this kind of
thing. How did the jazz have you ever

(22:16):
saw my team stand for the Starspano banner?
Baby, you'd think they were at West Point.
Yeah. And I said, unless any of you
guys have a congressional medal of honor, you
stand at attention when they play that song
and they have the and you honor our
country. Yeah. Because that's the only thing. I
don't use service you're giving, you know? So
don't don't give me a bunch of baloney,
you know? Yeah. And I think it was

(22:38):
in the little things that you did as
a coach that really established that, that unity.
Right? Well, you know what? You start with
the small things. We didn't have a lot
of rules, for instance. We had we had
simple rules like, be on time. We can't
play without you, so you gotta be here.
Alright? We wanna do to dress properly, be
ready to play. I had a one time,
a visiting player came in. He said, I

(22:59):
heard the jazz
that every practice is like a game.
Shirts tucked in, socks pulled up. I said,
hey. We don't stop paying you because we
don't have a game today.
We pay you every day.
And so that's what I expect. You come
to work, you know, just like like a
plumber. He brings his toolbox with him. You're
ready to go to work. I'm only gonna

(23:20):
take a couple hours of your time. And
so, you know, isn't it funny that if
we pick the best college coach in the
country, I think it would be fair to
say most people would say coach k Yeah.
At Duke is the best college coach. And
maybe he isn't, but he certainly is gonna
be right up there with all his success.
And then we pick the best coach in
in, and the pros, and we pray we'd
probably say it's Popovich. Isn't it funny that

(23:43):
they're both products of military institutions?
You know, Popovich graduated from the the Air
Force Academy,
and, and, of course, coach k went to
West Point. Yeah. So there's, like, those those
roots of leadership. Yeah. Leadership. Discipline.
You can't you can't lead
unless you get you have authority. Authority comes

(24:03):
from above.
Okay? Who were the best lieutenants?
Those who worked and, say, under general MacArthur
and general Eisenhower.
That's why so many of their cadre
became generals later on. You know? So you
gotta have you gotta have authority,
and, you've gotta have discipline. Yeah. And and
and a school teacher cannot survive without the

(24:25):
the principal and the school board and everybody
supporting them. Otherwise, the parents would eat them
alive. And the parents are the outsiders. They're
the amateurs. They don't know anything about what's
going on unless they've been teachers themselves. So,
yeah, you've gotta have discipline, and you gotta
I was very fortunate that all the coaching
places I was, I had that kind of
authority.
People supported me, and, you know, it, it

(24:48):
it helps. If you don't have
it, the players smell it, they realize it,
and you don't stand a chance. You you
know, you can start getting your, retirement papers
out. So
what did you do if there was a
player? How did you approach it if they
weren't really embracing that discipline culture that that
you're establishing? Sit them down. Get rid of
them. Yeah. I can't. I'm not running boys

(25:09):
down. Mhmm. I don't wanna I don't wanna
affect the whole team. Alright, in order to
save
one one person. You know what I mean?
I could make all my all my efforts,
you know. And and I think it's interesting,
isn't it, that we see now that players
who are making millions of dollars want more,
and they're holding out and they're this and
that. You've gotta move on. Alright? And you

(25:31):
cannot let let one player drag you down.
You know? And,
my idea is that,
you're you're only as strong as your weakest
link, and, you know, you have somebody who's
who's killing your locker room, who's gonna be
talking behind your back and everything else. I'll
give you an example. We had a we
had a,
you know, throw Bailey, alright, out of the

(25:53):
great North Carolina, and played for a very
good coach, Jimmy Vavano.
And, you know, we were we were practicing.
We were having preseason down at Dixie College,
and we were at the the the first
day of practice. And in those days, unlike
now, you know, you have about eighteen, nineteen
guys. You know, some are trying to make
the team along with your squad and whatever.

(26:15):
Yeah. They're working out. Well, anyway, after the
morning session,
we were we were,
meeting out in the middle of the floor,
and I usually kept everybody in front of
me. I learned that in the army. Don't
let people surround you. But this day, I
don't know, somehow some players got behind me.
And, and, all of a sudden, I heard
while I was talking, I heard, shut up.

(26:35):
The man's trying to teach us to win.
I turned around, and there's Thoreau Belly. He's
yelling at a couple of rookies. He said
these two rookies, they're talking to each other
about where they're gonna go for lunch in
between the the the the double sessions. And
he so I said, oh, we're gonna have
a good team this year. Nice. Yeah. Because
I said he got it. Yeah. That leadership
was being your leadership is being duplicated. Everybody

(26:57):
because
it resonated to all the players, even though
he was yelling at two rookies, everyone in
the line or, you know,
see see you in the weight room up
at up at one time, up in the
weight room, up at Westminster where we used
to practice. And we had put a weight
room in there, and Karl Malone was in
there. Team was working weights and everything. And
a couple of guys got up and they
start working. All of a sudden, they hear,

(27:18):
hey. And it's Karl Malone. Get back. You're
not done yet.
You'll be done when I'm done. And the
guys go, yes, sir.
And they go back and sit down. Yeah.
You know, that's that's you know, first of
all, those guys can do that because they
already are on the team. They are already
established and what have you. Sometimes,

(27:39):
the players will look at a coach who
maybe has had losing seasons or is is
on the ropes himself,
and they will recognize that. So, you know,
you have to have you have to have
support, and you've got to have belief in
yourself. I never worried about being fired, and
I never and I used to say to
players, don't talk to me about coaching because
I'm the coach. I'm the father here. You

(28:00):
don't know anything.
You know? I know everything, and that's that's
that's the end of that. You know? Yeah.
I mean, now they have 11 coaches. I
need 11 coaches. I need to teach a
guy to shoot.
I know everything there is to know about
shooting. Yeah. And I'm not gonna put it
into the hands of someone else to teach
you how to shoot. I'm gonna work with
you. Yeah. So, you know, that's important too.

(28:21):
So you got to have besides a loud
mouth, you've gotta have skills yourself. Yeah. The
players have to believe you're right. I thought
Rich Kelly, a player who went to Stanford,
was a was a brilliant student and everything.
And Rich Kelly said, one time when a
reporter asked him, what is the difference in
other coaches you've had? Because he had played
in a couple of teams. He says, Frank

(28:41):
is an alchemist.
He says he he's able to blend
things together. You've gotta know who's the strongest.
You could Vince Lombardi knew it. He knew
that Bart Starr, who had Bart Starr lost,
I think, 10 games in the senior season.
You know? And he he sometimes Bart Starr
had confidence problems. So he knew he'd put
a arm around him. Now Hornig, on the

(29:02):
other hand, you know, was a kicker and
a fullback and a tough guy and a,
you know, and everything else. He he needed
a kick in the butt. So you gotta
know who to kick in the butt and
who to hug. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes some people
need a hug. Others need a need a
kick. And, you know, that that's the way
that some some players come in there, and
all they think about is failing. And you

(29:23):
have to think about athletes who some their
whole lives,
they're thinking about, I've gotta make it. I've
gotta make it. If I don't make it
here, what am I gonna do? You know,
we haven't educated them. I find a lot
of fault in in schools who who let
let athletes slide. We have to be tougher
on them. Alright? That's why I used to
give them a bonus to go back and
finish school, get your degree.

(29:45):
Makes you one step above a lot of
people by doing that. Mhmm. You know, that
you show that, hey. I didn't just go
to college. I graduated
Yeah. From college. And and so, you know,
you have to you have to do that.
And and because, you know, the kids are
afraid. I don't care who they are. Even
a guy that's traded or a guy that's
picked up in the draft, you know, they

(30:05):
always
they always worry about, you know, oh, change
in teams, the new the new neighborhood I'm
going to, the new the new coaching staff,
what are they gonna think, and new teammates.
And you always hear players say, this is
my team. So don't tell me that. There's
no team we never and Jerry didn't allow
it either. We never allowed teams to have
team meetings.
We're on that team too. Mhmm. You know?

(30:27):
And you're not smart enough to hold team
meetings, you know, any more than I would
have in the army. Let my my company
have a have a meeting without me there.
Yeah. You know, because I'm going to be
out front when we hit the hit the
pay deck, you know? Being very clear on
who the leader is. Well, yes. I mean,
that's why sometimes you had to tell them.
That's why they were bars and stuff. Stars,

(30:48):
you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So was it
difficult times to know which which, players needed
a hug and which ones needed a kick
in the pants? Out pretty soon. Yeah. Yeah.
I would very often you know, suddenly I
look around the locker room, and I just
see somebody read their body language or their
face,
and then they say, well, what's the problem?
You know? I had one time,

(31:08):
it was Mark Eden, and he was I
knew he was down the dumps or something.
He usually wasn't that way. You know? In
fact, you know, surprising the captains of our
team would be in those days. Thoreau Bailey
and Marquis Marquis. You know? He was not
best player. He was a great player, but
not our our best player. And he was
the captain of the team, and and his
leadership qualities now, he goes out and speaks.

(31:30):
He's a he's a does a great job
of, leadership
conferences and stuff. But, anyway, he was I
said, what's what's wrong, Mark? He says, well,
I I don't know how I can approach
this with you, he said. But next Saturday,
he said, my sister's getting married, and I
was I was wondering if I could get
get a day off. Well, we had a
game that day. Oh, wow. So I said,

(31:51):
well, I said, Mark, I'll tell you how
I feel about that. You should be at
your sister's wedding. We got a lot of
games.
You know? Yeah. That's what I felt. Yeah.
Later on, I had, run-in with, another player
who said he needed a day off, and
he was gonna go he was gonna pick
up his Rolls Royce. And he said, I
need a day off to go pick up
my Rolls Royce. So he said, you let
Mark Eaton have off. I said, Mark Eaton's

(32:13):
sister was getting married.
You're gonna pick up a Royals Royce. I
says, you better have your rear end on
the bus ready to go. Yeah. I mean,
you know, you you find out. I used
to do a pretty good job of reading,
you know, and and you know what you
have to worry about sometimes? How about the
player who knows he's being paid for his
production numbers,

(32:34):
you know? And so he has a bad
day, but the team wins and he's not
happy. Yeah. Or you lose And he had
a great day and he can't get the
smile off his face. You know, you have
to slap that guy. You have to get
after him. You know, you have to tell
him when you lose, we all lose. When
we all win, you win. We all win.
Yeah. And it's not. And also,

(32:55):
Jerry knew this very well, is that,
winning is not a sometimes thing. Vince Lombardi
said, you know, you don't start. All of
a sudden, we're gonna turn it on day
one. No. You start it on you start
it the first day of practice,
and and, we wanna win at every I
mean, everything we do. Yeah. And, I wanna
get the pretty girl.
I wanna get the seat on the bus.

(33:16):
I wanna get the, you know, the extra
piece of pie. I mean, that Yes. That
was my,
my demeanor. And that's how I got brought
up, you know? Yeah. It sounds like a
lot of your players, obviously, there's a one
to one relationship and connection there. What did
you approach that in a more formal way
where you'd have formal one to one meetings
or, you know, the authority figure?
I don't believe in, I thought the players

(33:39):
should call me coach.
You know? I didn't care if they said
to the press, Frank did this, or their
mother or their father or their wife or
whatever it is. But when addressing me,
I earned that position. I I mean, to
me, coach was like doctor. Mhmm. You know?
And and and like I said before, my
own
high school coach, I still call him mister

(34:00):
Drucker.
My my college coach, mister Gallagher. So coach
Gallagher. So, you know, that was about as
formal as it ever got on that. They
would always say, coach Layton, can I see
you? Even, you know, someone picks up the
phone. Coach Layton, is that you? So I
but as far as sitting down to talk,
I wanted the players to say, I have
an open door. You're welcome to come in,

(34:23):
but I'm not I'm not a priest.
I don't wanna hear any crying. I don't
wanna hear any confessions or anything else. I
said, you gotta have something that I can
help solve for you. You know? Otherwise, you
gotta do it yourself because you're now a
man. You're over 21.
And I said, now if you're you're if
you're in a jam or you need help
or something, then, yes, then we can we

(34:45):
can do it. You know, if you gotta
go to your sister's wedding or whatever it
is, you you know, you need to borrow
something. I I you know, there's all sorts
of ways of helping out. You know, I
had players come to me and say, you
know, I'm having trouble with my wife. We
may get divorced, stuff like that. Then you
should talk to to to Reverend,
Davis. Yeah. You know,
whatever, Father O'Connor, whatever it is. And and

(35:07):
I said, they're they're better equipped to handle
that. But I wanted them to feel comfortable
with coming into me
and and saying, you know, I got a
girl pregnant or whatever it is. You know?
And I'm I'm in a jam here. Alright.
You know, calm down. It seems like a
jam now, but couple of weeks, it'll it'll
be we'll we'll work on it or, you
know, also car accidents, whatever it is. You

(35:28):
know? What the younger you are, sometimes these
things seem like great tragedies
that are insurmountable.
You know? And yet,
you're the authority figure. You have the cards
in your hand, so you can you can
figure it out. And when you do this,
the loyalty bills
and the responsibility
to you. I always felt it shouldn't be

(35:50):
a one way street, and it shouldn't be
about just money. Anybody can throw money at
them, but I'm going to I'm gonna
have you feel that you wanna be on
this team because you like being part of
this family. And that's what happened that the
people wanted to play for the Jazz. That's
why so many of our players were here
for so long and played for their whole

(36:10):
careers. Yeah. Because this was a nice place
to play. It was easy to get to,
and we listened to them. I used to
have not only the captains of the team,
which was the captains dealt with the players,
But I also had an executive committee. I
I had two players
who were older players. For instance, I had
Billy Paulson,
Rich Kelly, two older veteran players with ten

(36:30):
years experience who would come to me with
with inner problems.
For instance, we had a player who couldn't
read, and I had a book club. And
he used to get the books and he
couldn't read and everything. So so I said,
well, let me let me talk to him.
And this is sad because he had a
degree from college. I won't say what college.
They pushed him through. He couldn't read. You

(36:50):
know? Well, anyway, I got I got somebody
up at the university
and a woman, a teacher up there, and
she worked with him. And she said he
could read, but he forgot he could read.
He learned to read when he was a
kid in Brooklyn, you know? Oh, wow.
You know, and, an African American kid was
poor and everything.
And, and he ended up being able to
read. But he used to carry a book

(37:11):
around with him and everything. And but he
he couldn't read it. But he was trying
to fool me because we had a little
book club that we used to say on
the on the plane. I used to say
to players, I wanna see you guys reading,
you know, and just sleeping all the time
and everything. And then we'd meet and discuss
Stephen King. We'd try to pick out books
that they'd be excited about and everything, bestsellers.
And, so, anyway, we try to reach out

(37:33):
to have them not be embarrassed to come
to me
with, with even the most, delicate of problems
that they had. It's difficult to say to
somebody, I can't read. Yeah. And and I'm
the one person that can help them. Yeah.
I said, oh, we can take care of
that. Right. Reading's easy, I said. And it's
easier when you're older to learn, I said,
than you are when you were a kid.
Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, believe it

(37:55):
or not, I went so far as to
have people teach them to write. Wow. You
know, and a lot of the kids,
they had had some printing
experience, but they couldn't they couldn't really they
couldn't express themselves on paper, let alone, you
know. It became a team effort to help
that player. Spelling, spelling, writing. I mean, it
seems crazy. But you know what? Aren't these

(38:16):
things that happen in families? Yeah. I don't
have the answers to everything,
but I try to
get them to feel good about themselves.
And that went with, for instance, how to
dress.
You know? When the Jazz traveled, I had
an experience here. It was interesting.
When the
soccer team first played, they played
the Real Madrid was the world championship

(38:38):
soccer team, and they had the the great
player. I can't think of his name now.
He married the one of the Beckham. Right?
Beckham, he married one of the spices or
something like that. Well, anyway, we had a
party for him up at the Governor's House,
and I was invited to go. And I
was talking to their manager, to their coach,
and, everything. And he,
he said to me, I said, you know
what? I was impressed when you guys got

(39:00):
off the bus. I said I was I
was impressed at how you all were dressed
alike
and how dressed up you were and everything.
He said, we are the New York Yankees.
Wow. He says, that's how we are. Yeah.
That's how we travel. Yeah. And that's how
we were. I didn't want I said, we
go to the airport. You'll go and see
some pro teams, and the guys will, you
know, be dressed sloppy and stuff like that.

(39:22):
I said, when we go and people say,
that's the jazz.
I said, I don't I don't need I
don't have to have a shirt and tie
on all the time, but you should be
dressed. You should be dressed because you are
a professional. Yeah. You know? And,
so, you know, as lessons that maybe some
people were afraid to tell them to. Yeah.
Yeah. So To be honest with them. As

(39:42):
far as those one to one interactions, you
know, you expressed how your office is always
open for anything else that helped them feel
more comfortable coming to you with some difficult,
problems.
Yeah. By paying them respect, I I tried
I never find a play of money.
I never took money from people. To me,
that's the biggest disrespect you can ever be,

(40:02):
oh, we're gonna fine this guy a thousand
dollars or a $100, whatever it is. Alright?
And the other thing is to treat them
treat them like men. I used to say,
I'm gonna treat you like a man until
you prove to me you're not.
You know? I said, I'd do it the
old marine way. You know, guys were late
for practice. What I used to do, I
know it was very effective, and you can

(40:23):
do this with your children too, is that
I didn't punish the guy who was late.
I punished everybody else.
So at the end of practice, when the
guy was late for practice, I'd say, stand
on the side. Everybody else on the lines
would run suicides
and keep running the suicides. Now he he
was the one that was late, and he's
not running them. Yeah. But the team is
because in reality,

(40:44):
he's punishing the team. Yeah. Doesn't wanna let
the team down. Yeah. And see, he so,
anyway, they learn. And so what then that's
taken care of in the locker room. The
players will say, hey. Never be late again.
Yeah. I'm not running lines for you, man.
You know? And, you know, I always try
to say, hey, I'll give you another chance,
but don't wear my patience out because like

(41:05):
I said before, this isn't Boys Town. And
we're not trying to save you one one
one person at a time. Yeah. But,
yeah, I think I think treating the players
with respect
and listening to their listening to them sometimes
is just enough. And and trying to teach
them to don't be afraid to come in
and share, and whatever it is isn't gonna

(41:26):
affect your standard on the team. Yeah. I
said, you know, I'm not gonna put up
with certain things. You know? For instance, I
say, when you take drugs,
I will get all you all the help
in the world, but I'm not gonna have
you on my team. Not while you're using
drugs. Not now. You know? We knew for
years, players were using steroids.
It was new. All of a sudden in
baseball, they're saying, oh, these guys are hitting

(41:48):
homers. Well, weren't you a little suspicious when
you saw the guy over one summer come
back twenty five pounds
bigger and stronger and muscles and everything else?
So what I tried to do was,
was, treat them with respect
unless they abuse that. And abuse would be
by, like I say,
you know, drug usage or continuing drug usage.

(42:10):
John's John,
what's his name? Up here. John drew Drew.
You know? I mean, we gave him many,
many chances and and
paid paid for his rehabilitation
stuff, but he continued to let us down,
and we had to let him go.
Yeah. Yeah. So anything else as we wrap
up? Any other leadership principle or coaching coaching
philosophy that was really a

(42:34):
I think that the players
will read
whether you like your job or not. You
know, I I, you know, when I measure,
I think I mentioned before that Johnny Wooden
said a good coach is one who who
wins when he has good players. Nobody can
win with bad players. Alright? The the UB
Browns of the world and stuff will make
them a little better, the Pat Riley's,
but, but, otherwise,

(42:56):
you gotta have good players.
Alright? But I think in leadership
and in coaching,
the players will read whether you enjoy it
or not, and you've gotta be very, very
careful. I always say, would I want my
son or daughter to play for this coach?
Would I trust them? Alright? I say this
all the time. Football. I love football. I

(43:18):
think football is great. I think it's it's
great training for our kids. It's more lessons
are learned on the football field as a
classroom than than in the classrooms themselves. You
find out who you are. You learn fear.
You learn you know, it's like the, the
players waiting for a game. They're worried. They're
scared. They're this. But then whenever when the
whistle blows and the kickoff, they they get

(43:39):
out there and they play or they don't
play, whatever it is. And so, you know,
I think it's it's important to say that
you're not gonna be dangerous.
I say to a lot of parents, when
you let your son,
play football,
make sure you know who the coach is.
You don't want some nasty guy that you
know? I remember playing football my day, and

(43:59):
one of our punishments is they didn't give
us water.
What the you know? I mean, are you
crazy?
You know? I mean, we coulda killed us.
Yeah. Practicing in the heat and, oh, yeah.
You know? Hey. You guys aren't gonna have
a drink. You I think,
so, you know and then when I got
in the army, I found it was the
opposite way. We made guys drink that water.

(44:20):
We didn't wanna lose them. So, yeah, so
you have to be careful
that the welfare, the health, the mental the
mental well-being
of the player is is at the utmost.
Yeah. And the players will read that. The
people around them will read that. And then
the final analysis, you know, maybe you won't
you won't be in the next Popovich or
the next Johnny Wooden or whatever it is.

(44:42):
But you gotta when you get out of
it, you gotta the players will read this
too. Do you enjoy this? Do you have
fun?
A little trick I used, and I think
it was good. I thought always leave them
laughing.
And you're good at that. I used to
I used to always have a joke at
the end of practice, and I used to
say, if anybody can top my jokes,
you anybody come in. So the players start

(45:04):
to come in with jokes and they would
tell joke at the end of practice. And
I would always look up a joke and
have a little joke at the end of
practice too so that when we left practice,
we were all you know, they were all
hitting each other and high fiving.
Yeah. That was a good one. You know?
Yeah. Yeah. Delete. I think it's good to
leave practice, to leave work every day on
a bright note.

(45:24):
Don't leave you know, my father worked on
the docks,
and he worked on he he, he was
a longshoreman,
you know, and he carried stuff on his
back and onto the ships and everything. That's
what he did. Dumb Irishman. That's what they
did with the Irishmen when they came from
Ireland. They put him to work in there
as they did other groups of people too.
And it was hard work, and it was

(45:45):
tough work and everything else. So he always
say,
I gotta go back to this job. You
know? I hate my job. I said, you
gotta go through life hating your job.
You know? You should love your job. And
the players will read that. They knew I
loved coaching.
They knew I liked coaching. I and and
I had to have them in order to
make it work. Yeah. So they were just

(46:06):
part of it. And a lot of times
people ask me, do you miss coaching?
Alright? I've been out of coaching for a
lot of years now. I got out of
coaching in order to be with my family.
I thought I had taken enough away from
them. You know? I had my son who
played in college, who played in high school,
and was a, captain of his college team.
I saw two games in his whole life.
Oh, wow. Two games. This isn't just rehearsal.

(46:28):
We don't go through this thing. We don't
get a chance to do it over again.
That was Scotty, so I hired him to
come with me and coach. And people said,
oh, is he qualified?
And I was I I said, I really
don't care. I'm married to his mother. That's
all. You know? But, you know, the thing
that,
yeah, you gotta you gotta like your job.
But when people ask me, do I miss
coaching? I said, no. I miss playing.

(46:50):
You know? I was thinking about this last
night,
about the game today, which I can't wait
for. Yeah. And I was saying, gosh. If
I could only be young again, for what
reason? To to to just play one more
time. Yeah. If I I mean, and and
I say that to the players. You know?
Sometimes,
you know, the coaches will have me to
speak to their teams. You know? Gary Anderson

(47:10):
does every year. He's back at Utah State.
And, I always say to them, hey. What
you're gonna do this afternoon when you go
out in the real world, General Motors don't
have a team. Yeah. You know?
So you you enjoy it because you this
is one time only. Yeah. What these guys
are gonna do tonight,
that's it. Yep. You know? Yep. And, so,

(47:32):
you know, you got so I miss that.
I really do. I miss I played football,
baseball, basketball. I played basketball and baseball in
college,
and I really miss that, you know, thing.
So what do you do instead?
Well, we need umpires. Umpirants, great. And then,
you know, coaching is is a wonderful
profession, and it's competition.
And, some of my great friends,

(47:54):
you know, came from the coaching ranks. Yeah.
And,
I just got an award, in fact, from
the coaches association, which was was wonderful because
when I saw the list of guys who
were on the committee,
boy, I I I teared up. Yeah. And
it's I said, gee, I didn't think they
liked me.
But, yeah, it's it should be fun. Yeah.
It all should be fun. And then when

(48:15):
it isn't fun, you got to get I
saw Andrew Luck the other day. He said
it wasn't fun anymore. Yeah. So he quit.
That's right. Because that's when you get hurt.
Yeah, for sure. So, is,
you'll have opportunity in the next week or
two to speak at the BYU Management Society,
the moral and ethical
Well, sooner or later, everybody gets to speak
to them. Yeah. You know? You you're at

(48:36):
the bottom of the list. It's my fee.
Yeah. They like my fee. It's nothing. I
get another green jello. Nice. That's how they
do it. You know?
Well, it's gonna be I look forward to
that opportunity. You know what it is? I
hear you.
It's a special group.
All right. I say this because it's young,
energetic,
bright young men
who are giving of themselves

(48:57):
to help others. Next week, I'm going also
to the Bishop's dinner. I, you know, I'm
I go, but I love it. Yeah. I
love it. And and it's good for me
and it's good for my family.
We found home. Yeah. And that's great. And
that segues my last question is you alluded
earlier that coming to Salt Lake, there's some
spiritual aspect to it. And now looking back
on it, how's how how have you your

(49:19):
spirit? All right. There's a couple of things
happening. I say a spiritual aspect to it.
I say, I wonder if I was sent.
Alright? That I came here and added a
balance to this community that maybe they didn't
have before. You know, if you look around,
we have had some, you know, wonderful wonderful
leaders and other faiths. Yeah. I mentioned
Franz Davis of the, the Baptist Church here,
you know, with the African American community. And

(49:41):
there's so many people that, do do certain
things like that have made great impacts on
the community and have been rewarded for it
by the community.
But one of the things that happens is
when you come to a place like this,
which is
obviously
a religious community and religion plays a big
has a big impact on everything we do

(50:03):
and everywhere we go and everything we say
and do, But it made me a better
Catholic. Mhmm. It made me more aware of
my religion and my responsibility.
You know, I'm impressed
with the commitment
and and the camaraderie and the and the
family aspects and the all of the things,
you know, whether it's through sports or BYU.

(50:24):
You know? There's so many things that that
make me think all the time about my
religion and my responsibility to being a Catholic.
And I think that's good, by the way.
I don't think everybody should be Catholic. I
don't think everybody should be LDS. I don't
think everybody should be Muslim. But I think
that everybody should have the same standards and
the same way of doing things. When people

(50:46):
talk about BYU, for instance, and the honor
code I went to a school like that.
Niagara University is a Catholic university, and we
had all sorts of rules and regulations and
what have you. And it will always be
in debated as, right and wrong and everything
else. Well, it didn't hurt this guy. It
gave me a stand up I wish to
live by. And I think one of the
great things is is, that that the,

(51:08):
LDS church does is the, the the missionary
thing. I always think about this. Whenever I
see a guy who's in a there's two
two people. If anybody goes to Notre Dame
and you meet him and you talk to
them, within
ten minutes, they will tell you they went
to Notre Dame. I don't care what it
is. Alright? They will say, oh, by the
way, along the way, I went to Notre
Dame. You know that, Don't They're so proud,

(51:29):
and that's so important to them and everything
else. I think it's, it's, it's true of,
people who are,
in the LDS journey to say, where'd you
go on your mission? I had two fellows
meeting. You know, where'd you go on your
mission? I went here in Brazil. This time.
And and it it that's a wonderful thing.
And you do the same thing with marines,
don't you? A guy's a marine. He's a
marine for life. If he doesn't have it

(51:51):
tattooed on his forehead, he has it somewhere
along the line. He's gonna let you know
he was in the marine. He's proud that
he was able to do it, and and
and he served.
And I think that goes well with the
missionary spirit. I think you you become a
missionary as you learn you're teaching the religion,
but you're getting you're learning. Every time you
teach, you learn. You know? Leadership

(52:12):
is not, by the way, I'll add this
to it. It's not born. You're not born
to be a leader any more than you're
born to be a dentist. You know, I
don't wanna have my teeth worked on a
guy that was as a born dentist. I
wanna I wanna have a guy work on
my teeth who has worked hard at it.
Yeah. But leadership can be taught. Leadership can
be shown by example.
You know? I had a great I I

(52:33):
mentioned my father. You know? Sixth grade education.
You know? Immigrant comes over to to
works hard on the docs all his life
and everything. But what an example he was
and his leadership qualities,
by his sacrifices,
you know, that when the time came to
when the bugle blew, we went. We didn't
question it.

(53:04):
That concludes my interview with coach Frank Layden.
I hope you,
appreciated that interview as much as I did.
You know, I get people from time to
time that tell me, yeah, you're a pretty
good interviewer. And then I interview somebody like
coach Layden and I have not one chance
of controlling that interview as we go but,
nonetheless, he's so fun to listen to. I
really appreciated it. Now,

(53:25):
as you can see, there's a lot of
principles here that I felt like really applied
to our experience as Latter day Saint leaders.
I'll just run through the ones that stood
out to me, the the main leadership principles
that he talked about. I just wanna, give
you my perspective and maybe give you a
deeper
opportunity to to,
ponder over these principles. First one that jumped
out is always involve service in your leadership.

(53:46):
And I'd love this, And it might seem
like an assumption to make that if you're
an elders quorum president, really study president, well,
of course, we're going to involve service in
our leadership. But I think you can be
there's always ways to be maybe more intentional
and realize and and or see that service
as, you know, we're coming together as a
unit
to serve and make the world a better
place. And in that process of doing that,

(54:09):
we're going to be more unified. We're gonna
there's gonna be deeper friendships. There's gonna be
more of a community
in our organization. So I love that. And
the next one that stood out is help
them be better intellectually.
I love this concept, especially in, you know,
coaching the NBA. You would think that while
we're here, we gotta win championships. We gotta
get some some w's on on the on

(54:30):
the board, you know, and and march forward
with, creating success here. But really creating an
organization that's not just about one thing. Right?
That we're not just here for wins or
we're not just here to bring people under
Christ, which is incredibly important. Right? We're also
here because we wanna create maybe a quorum
where every time you leave our core meeting
or our lease site every week or our

(54:51):
ward and sacrament meeting, you're leaving
deeply impacted intellectually.
Right? And more challenged
intellectually. And I think that's a that such
a rich principle that can impact any organization.
And, obviously, the the one that comes up
a lot is show you really do love
them. And I saw that in many examples

(55:12):
that coach Layton shared. And how are you
I mean, think about the examples. You know,
they talked about this simple ritual they have
of hugging each other and saying, how can
I help you today? Right? Like, what are
some various rituals or routines that you can
implement in your service or in your quorum
routines and schedule that is going to
give you an opportunity as a leader, but

(55:32):
give everybody an opportunity
one to one to show that you love
each other. Right? And they really care deeply
about each other, and it's not just, well,
I'm assigned to this award, and so that's
why I'm here. Right? Make your authority known
and promote discipline was another principle that stood
out. And, obviously,
you know, coaching an NBA basketball team or
just coaching in generals, I think, is a

(55:52):
little bit different than, you know, running an
elders quorum or or at least society where,
you know, I wouldn't necessarily recommend that, you
know, you're you're screaming at people or telling
them, you know, to get in line or
or really push discipline like you're in the
the army. But I think there's some things
that that you could you could, implement
that could really
stimulate that discipline and stimulate,

(56:13):
the the or recognize
the authority, the keys that are present and
the role of those keys. Right? That or
that authority
in the room. And so that'd be an
interesting discussion, I I would say, for a
presidency
to have is to discuss, you know, how
can we make our authority,
more known? And, obviously, it's not your authority.
It's God's authority. How can we make priesthood

(56:33):
keys more more present, more obvious in the
room and and turn to those and and
really create purpose for those rather than just
on paper. Yeah. You're the elders' comp president.
Yeah. You have keys. Right?
Next one is, is your leadership influence
being duplicated? I love the story with Thoreau
Bailey, right, where they were coaching and Thoreau
stopped everybody and said, hey. He's teaching us

(56:54):
how to win. Right? And so this is
a good sign of of healthy leadership is
when there are organic leaders that just start
cropping up in the quorum or in the
group, in the organization that step forward and
lead even though they haven't been assigned to
lead or even if they're not a counselor
or a presidency member. They're still they still
step up and say, you know, we're doing

(57:14):
something special here. And, that's maybe another discussion
to have is how can we duplicate
our leadership influence?
Next one is know when to give a
hug and when to give a kick.
I'm on to these were some rich stories,
that that there are individuals
where you, again, is not that you're go
to their home and, you know, cuss them
out for for not coming to church or

(57:35):
these things. But, you know, some people, they
just need some extra love, and other people,
they need you to go to their home
and challenge them and say brother jones we
expect you to be part of our core
we need you here all right we we
need you to renew that temple recommend we
need you to engage in our ward in
the gospel because
we need you. Right? And so I think
there's various ways of

(57:56):
of doing that, you know, giving them a
kick in the pants, spiritually speaking without offending
or coming across too too strong. But nonetheless,
a great principle.
Next one is just how he stimulated one
to one relationships and really made that, you
know, his open door policy. But, and I
think it's so much more than just saying,
hey. I have an open door policy. But
being a leader that's approachable. How are you

(58:17):
approachable? Obviously, most leaders in the church or
Latter day Saint leaders don't have an official
office. Right? That with a door that people
can walk into. And so I think it's
up to you to determine
when are your open office hours or if
someone does wanna talk to you, how would
they go about that? And do they know
how to go about that? Right? I think
as getting an appoint with a bishop is
fairly obvious with an executive secretary and so

(58:38):
forth. But what about with with a relief
site president? What if they really want to
come to you with a concern or a
trial that they're having in life? How would
they go about that? Because it's probably difficult
to wait around till the end of relief
society and catch you as you're leaving or
to show up your house. So having an
implementing a system there as far as one
to one relationships would be would I think

(58:59):
would be helpful. Next principle is help them
want to be a part of the team.
I mean, this is so crucial.
How many individuals in your quorum and your
relief site and your ward really want to
be there? And how many are there just
because, well, I know it should be. You
know, I gotta take the sacrament or but
really to create an organization of of them
really wanting to be there. And that may

(59:20):
be just taking the the step of asking
them, why on earth do you want to
be here? I mean, I get the whole,
you know, ordinance thing. I get the the
tradition of it. But if all that was
taken away, why would you want to be
here among us and be a part of
this group? Appearance creates professionalism, and professionalism creates
culture. I love this and this goes back
to, you know, the I think the Yankees,

(59:41):
the New York Yankees, have been doing this
for years and years of just creating a
professional
atmosphere. Right? And now, you know, there's an
eternal debate about white shirts and things. But
I remember as a bishop, I would ask
my my bishopric counselors. I said, you know,
it's not in the handbook,
but I would ask that you, every time
you're on a bishopric business,

(01:00:02):
that you're acting in that function, that you
have a a nice looking suit on and
that you're you're doing that right now. Obviously,
there's service activities or just dropping on somebody.
But as far as Sunday to Sunday,
when we're acting in our official capacity, I
want the visual image of unity, not just,
in our actions, but visually. And and I
think there's, you know, a lot of people,

(01:00:23):
especially nowadays,
it's easy to grumble about that sort of
stuff. You know? There's lots of discussion about
the honor code at at Brigham Young University
and and appearance at church and these things.
And and, of course, you know, those are
important discussions to have. But in leadership, I
really feel like it's important to take a
step of how are we gonna look professional
and take it to that level so that

(01:00:45):
so that the the authority that we represent
is is respected in that manner. So something
to to think about, I think, as far
as appearance, like, how can you impact the
appearance of maybe your presidency or the appearance
of your quorum that is, isn't gonna feel
like, just one more thing, but it's gonna
actually stimulate unity
among those that attend.
Another fantastic principle, that coach Layden shared. Those

(01:01:06):
you lead will read if you like your
role or not. I thought this was awesome
because so many times in the church I
mean, and especially a a bishop, a stake
presidency. I mean, nine years. I mean, you
you're in these callings for a long time.
And sometimes those last few years,
you're just sort of ready, right, to to
move on to something else. And so if
people can perceive, if you're not enjoying that

(01:01:28):
that calling and
I have enjoyed some callings before, especially some
leadership callings that I've had. And I feel
like people really felt that. Like, when I'm
acting in that capacity, they could tell I
was enjoying that experience. And if you enjoy
that experience,
they are more,
likely to want to be a part of
that experience and be involved and be in
that group. So that's another thing to consider.

(01:01:49):
Do you like your calling? And if you
don't, like, what can you do to either
stimulate
and find that energy again or maybe have
a conversation with, your bishop or someone and
say, man, I'm really struggling with this. Is
there something else? Or what can we do
to to stimulate some of that enjoyment in
your calling? Because you really do need to
enjoy your calling. And then lastly, I put,

(01:02:11):
always leave them laughing and on a positive
note. And this is, I think, great counsel
for any core meeting, really exciting meeting. Of
course, it's natural to sort of end the
meeting on the with the, you know, testimony.
Right? The spiritual experience where your voice lowers
and you get very
sincere. And, you know, I just I just
love this gospel. Right? Like and that's fine.

(01:02:31):
There's a time and a place for that.
But, also, especially in an elders' courtroom, I
would much rather as when a group of
men
to leave that meeting
laughing or leave it on a note that's
super positive
and that I can that, leaves me smiling
as I walk out of that courtroom. Right?
So I think that's a great principle. Anyways,
those are just the the main principles I

(01:02:52):
took away from it. I hope, I'd love
to hear maybe principles that you have,
that captured your attention in this interview. You
can go to leadingsaints.org.
And right on the interview of this with
coach Layden, you can leave a comment, and
there you can, share your perspective on things.
And that concludes this throwback episode of the
Leading Saints podcast.

(01:03:12):
Quick reminder, go watch Joseph Grenny's presentation
on helping loved ones overcome addiction
by going to leadingsaints.org/fourteen.
It came as a result of the position
of leadership which was imposed upon us

(01:03:34):
by the God of heaven who brought forth
a restoration
of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
When the declaration was made concerning the only
true and living Church upon the face of
the earth,
We were immediately put in a position of
loneliness,
the loneliness of leadership

(01:03:54):
from which we cannot shrink nor run away,
and to which we must face up with
boldness and courage
and
ability.