“I Give Unto You Weakness” | An Interview with Jim Kasen

Jim Kasen has degrees in Organ Performance and Interpersonal Communications from Brigham Young University, a Master of Social Work from the University of Utah, and a Masters in Choral Conducting from BYU. He is a licensed social worker, recently retired as Director of University Relations at BYU, and is the author of the book To Belong to Him. Jim first served as a branch president in the Philippines Manila Mission, and has served in branch presidencies at the Provo Missionary Training Center, in elders quorum presidencies, in a bishopric, four times as a high councilor, and as a music director, choir director, and organist many times on the ward and stake levels. He has also served on the Church Music Committee, as a guest organist at Temple Square, a member of the Tabernacle Choir at Temple Square, and in many other assignments such as directing choirs for general conference and on the hymnal submission review sub-committee. Links To Belong to Him There is already a discussion started about this podcast. Share your thoughts HERE. Watch on YouTube Read the TRANSCRIPT of this podcast Scriptures referenced in this podcast: Ether 12:27 Get 14-day access to the Core Leader Library Highlights 2:10 Introduction to Jim Kasen and his story 8:15 Moving forward with his struggles with same sex attraction and faith. Jim felt like he couldn’t abandon his faith. However, he did feel like he had to abandon his sexuality. 12:00 Weakness is a state being. God only gives us good things. Things to help us learn, grow, and stay close to Him. 17:30 Jim gives his advice to church leaders as a person that struggles with same sex attraction, anxiety, and has been single his whole life. 25:00 You don’t want to be administered to, you want to be ministered to. 27:40 The individuals you are leading belong to Jesus Christ not the church. Church leaders don’t always handle things how God wants but the Atonement of Jesus Christ covers those mistakes. 34:00 The church is the vehicle to get me where we need to be. We choose to get in the car and Jesus is the driver. We might not agree with everything that the church does but we can give it to Jesus. 39:30 See the church for what it is and be ok if people need to unplug from the church for a bit. Some people need to step away in order to reset. The truth is that the church does cause hurt sometimes. 42:15 We’ve become immune and disenchanted with the word repentance. What we need to ask ourselves is if we are willing to change. There is a lot of agency in being born here and being born again and we need to respect that. 43:20 Leadership and pride. A leader should never say been there, done that. 47:00 Jim reads a letter written to him by a friend about learning from life’s lessons. 49:30 Jim’s book is about his journey. It’s not a standard or formula for others to live by. It gives us lessons on weakness and mortality. 51:15 What Jim would say to someone that says it’s not worth it to stay in the church and that he should have explored his sexuality 56:30 Jim’s final thoughts and testimony The Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints' mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 600 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric,

Episode Transcript

(00:02):
- Have you ever had aloved one leave the church
and your relationship becomes awkward.
This is so common and so sad.
I got the chance tointerview the Packard family
who have been down this road.
Cindy and Blair Packard areorthodox believing parents
and Josh, their son and hiswife, have left the church.
We came together to discuss their journey,

(00:22):
and it was amazing what they taught.
They talked about thecommunications they regretted,
and how other siblings responded
in positive and negative ways.
They learned how to pick up the pieces.
Again, express love, carry on,
and build a beautiful relationship.
This has become a favorite in the
Questioning Saints Virtual Library.
You can actually gain access
to this [e-mail] 14.

(00:45):
This will give you 14 days towatch the Packards interview
and many others relatedto helping individuals
who begin to question their faith.
Go to leading saints.org/fourteenand get access now.
Hey, did you know that wevideo record the vast majority
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(01:06):
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(01:56):
All right, today we're havingthe opportunity to sit down
with Jim Cason. How are you, Jim?
- I'm well, thank you.- Good. I'm excited to explore this.
You've, let's see, you'vewritten a book recently.
I have about your story and your journey.
Uh, you've done on some podcasts, whatnot.
Now it's your turn on theLeading Saints podcast.
So I hope you feel ready for this.
- I do. I'm greatly lookingforward to having this chance.

(02:16):
It's a different topic,
but still spills over into
everything that I've beenworking on. So, yeah, that's,
- Now we're gonna include thisin our LGBT Saints Virtual
Library and Great.
'cause that's part of yourstory, right? That's right.
So we're like, give us a backdropof your story growing up.
Was there a moment thatyou kind of came to
this identity or,
- You know, that's a,that's a great request.

(02:38):
At this point, I, I struggled.
I was one of two boysin a part member family.
I was the youngest and myparents experienced a lot
of challenges with each other in terms of
my father belonging tothe Catholic church,
my mother belonging to the LDS church,
and both of them notbeing terribly active when

(03:00):
we were born.
So I kind of grew up in two churches. Hmm.
And that whole process, uh,had a real strong impact on me
and caused me to come to gripslater in life with the fact
that my parents really did love me as much
as their broken lives wouldallow them to love me.
I was not your normal child.

(03:22):
I started experiencing generalized anxiety
disorder at about the age of two.
It manifests itselfwith separation anxiety
and was really aimed at my mom.
And, uh, that was just areal challenge for my parents
to deal with and for me to experience.
It was unbelievably painful.

(03:46):
As I got to about the age of four, I knew
that something was different about me.
And that's when I finallystarted to realize that
as I look back, that agewas where I could identify
that I was experiencingsame sex attraction.
Mm-Hmm. . So with those two
massive things on board
and in the home that I wasbeing raised in as these,

(04:08):
I affectionately call them religion wars
because my, my mother came toher senses when a neighborhood
lady had said, can I takeyour voice to Bible school
and to the Baptist church?
And mom didn't care. Shesays, oh yeah, whatever.
Then the pastor asked mymother when I was gonna
be baptized .
And, uh, and your

(04:28):
- Mother, you say, was a latter day saint
- Was a latter day saint.
And, uh, it seems thatovernight we were going
to both the Catholic mass
and also we were going to, my brother
and I were going with my motherto primary to Sunday school
to sacrament meeting.
She was teaching in primaryand all of these things.
It was like, it happened so rapidly

(04:49):
that there was a rebirth in her life
and in my father's life.
That really created achallenge from that point on
for my brother and Ito make some decisions.
And so, missionarydiscussions at seven of those
mother Superior at theconvent taught us seven
lessons on catechism.

(05:10):
Yeah. And my brother
and I at, you know, Iwas 11 where we were left
to make the decision,
which church are you goingto align yourself with.
- Oh, wow. And that was on you?Yeah. Yeah. That was on me.
Your parents weren't making that for you?
- No, no. Uhuh. But they were,
there was politics and and .
- There's some encouragementone way or the other.
- There was some strong, yeah,

(05:31):
there was some very strong agendas. Yeah.
- So it sounds like, I mean, you're both
on an emotional level.
Mm-Hmm. A family level, a religious level.
Like it's just sort of allover the place for good or bad.
I mean, that's just sortof the, the environment
that you grow up in. Yeah. Yeah.
- And you know, even thoughmy brother was the first
to decide to join the church,

(05:52):
I came trailing about a year later.
And I had initially notwanted my family, my to be,
you know, divided unevenly,if you will, uh, religiously.
And so I, I was very much so intrigued
with the Catholic churchbecause I had also been studying
music since I was eight years old.
I had this propensity for feeling deeply

(06:16):
spiritual things in general,
but the music of theCatholic church really,
and the pageantry, all ofthat just really took me.
So when the sound of Musiccame out 50 years ago,
and I was sitting there inthe theater as a little boy,
and all of a sudden here'sthis massive organ processional
that starts playing
as Maria is processing down theaisle of this Catholic church.

(06:38):
The automatic feelingwas, I gotta be a Catholic
- .
I was calling to you. Right.Yeah. It was just calling
- To me.
And then, you know, by thetime I was 11, I'd kind of come
to my senses and saw whatwas going on and Gotcha.
As much as I could asan 11-year-old. Yeah.
But the decision I hadto, I had to fight for

(06:59):
my connection with the churchon more than one occasion
and have in my life.
Mm-Hmm. . So,you know, my, my focus now is
the church and the gospel,
and I just keep moving in this direction.
Yeah. You know, moving forward,
- And obviously this,you know, these parts
of your life deserveseveral hours of podcasting,

(07:20):
but I would imagine that,you know, you're going
through your teenage years,you're reconciling your
sexuality to some extent there.
And then even in the church
and then being single,then it comes time for,
you know, the marriage ages.
And, uh, did you serve a mission? Oh yeah.
You didn't, right. So youwent through all these things
and it was, uh, was it sortof all over the map as far as
where, how you werereconciling all this with,

(07:41):
with these things thatyou had going on inside?
- Yeah, that's, that's a really,
that's a really strong question.
I knew that, that insideof me, that I needed
to move in this direction,but I moved forward not
because of what I knew as far
- As the direction of the church, or Yes,
- Uhhuh .
I moved forward because this gift

(08:01):
of faith had been given to me.
And I believe very stronglythat the vast majority of gifts
of the spirit always come in a raw form.
Mm-Hmm. . Andbecause they do, there is a lot
of developmental effort thatwe have to exert ourselves
with in order to develop these gifts.
And faith was moving at a veryrapid speed for me. Mm-Hmm.

(08:23):
. And nomatter what I was facing,
what I considered to be, whatI would bear in as immortal,
I couldn't abandon wheremy faith was taking me.
It didn't mean that I wasnot without my struggles.
It, what it meant was, isthat this was the central
energy in my life that wasmoving me forward more and more.

(08:46):
Yeah. And it was drawing me as quickly
as I could muster the strength
to keep up a decent pace with it.
And it's continued to this day Yeah.
To move me in that direction.
- So as you, I, and I appreciate, I framed
that like you knew youcouldn't abandon your faith,
but in doing that, like thisis the, the paradox of it all.
Did you feel like you hadto abandon your sexuality

(09:07):
to some extent by doing that?
Or I, I mean, were they playing at odds,
or how would you describe itin your personal experience?
- Yeah, playing it, playing atodds is the, is the right way
to say it, because there was real pain
that I was experiencing
because I had been raised ata time in the church when the
agenda was very, very strong.
It is a celibate life.

(09:28):
And that meant in thoughtin word and indeed.
- And you don't talkabout these things. No.
- Right? No. Oh, heaven's not.
- You just gotta bury itdeeper and deeper. Yeah.
Which is not a, a positive recipe,
- .
No, it's not. And, uh, you know, and I,
and I knew that once I started to share
what I had beenexperiencing with, you know,

(09:50):
local church leadership,
and that didn't occur untilI got home from my mission.
Mm-Hmm. from the Philippines.
I had talked to my missionpresident that I knew was,
you know, he was a, hadtherapist background.
Mm-Hmm. . Andhe was wonderful about it.
I only had a know three, twoor three months left with him.
'cause he was new, but he gave
me some courage to move forward.

(10:11):
But when I got home and I went in to talk
to my bishop about it,the reception was far from
what it had been withmy mission president.
Mm-Hmm. thereception was, I need you
to give me your temple recommend.
And then reached into his desk,
pulled out the generalhandbook of instructions
and said, I don't knowwhat to do with you.
Wow. So that seemed to be probably the low

(10:32):
place where we started to build from.
And I didn't ever feel that I needed to go
to press with, oh no.
I'm quote unquote experiencingsame sex attraction. I'm gay.
I'm, you know, I, I neverfelt that that was going
to accomplish anything for me. Yeah.
- Like, as far as making it super
public and just being out there. Yeah.

(10:53):
- Any more than I would make public my
terrible struggle with anxiety.
Mm-Hmm. . So,you know, Kurt, the way that I
formulated this in my mind,
and I may be totally off base with this,
but when I studied the Book of Mormon
for the umpteenth time,
and I, I got to ether1227, that's when I started

(11:16):
to realize what the roleof mortality would consist
of in terms of whatGod said, our weakness.
Mm-Hmm. is weakness.
It's a state of being ratherthan a list of, you know,
here's all these things that
you're gonna have problems with.
What it became was Godsaid, if you come to me,
I will show unto you yourweakness, this state of being.

(11:38):
Mm-Hmm. .And I give you, okay.
There's another thing.God gives us good things.
He doesn't give us bad things.
So if he gave this to me,
and this is one of the thingsthat comprises my state
of being weak, then Ibelieved that I needed
to learn what this was about.
And I needed to learn
what he wanted mepersonally to do with this.

(11:59):
Even though there was a lot ofpeople with a lot of opinions
and a lot of leadership inother areas in the church
that was ver, that werevery, very direct about.
Mm-Hmm. things should be, yeah.
Should be navigated.
So I didn't want to, I mean,I was, this was getting worse.
The intensity of it was getting real,
real difficult to bear.

(12:21):
But I just had faith that I wanted to know
what God wanted from me.
I wanted to know, how isI gonna deal with this?
Because God doesn't take these aspects
of weakness in my life.
He never took this and said,I'm gonna make this a strength.
Now, what he said was, I'm going
to make you strong in this weakness,
but I can't take this away
because it's the very thingthat will keep you close to me.

(12:43):
Yeah. And if I take itaway, you don't have much
of a chance, Jim.
So hold on. I'm not gonnaabandon you. This will get messy.
But I'm not gonna abandon you.
I'm gonna stay with you andI'll move you through this,
because this is what I, I believe,
and this may be heresy to someof your listeners, ,
I don't believe I experiencedSSA in my premortal existence.

(13:04):
And I don't believe I willbe experiencing it in my
postmortal experience.
Mm-Hmm. , I justdon't believe that this is
where the proving ground is.
This is the test drive for me.
And so it doesn't make it easier,
but it makes it more meaningful.
And my faith just teaches mesomething different. Yeah.
- I think this, you know, ether1227 is such a helpful frame

(13:27):
in this, how you've unpacked it.
'cause sometimes we maybe look at
that verse a little too superficial,
and sometimes we put sat the end weaknesses.
Right. That God gave us weaknesses.
Then we assume like, well, Godgave, you know, Jim anxiety
and same-sex attraction,
and these are weaknessesthat he needs to deal with.
But I love that it's a singular,
and it's sort of a synonymouswith God gave us mortality

(13:48):
and that it's not a positive thing,
nor does it a negative thing.
It's a thing that in,
it's like an arena in which we can stand,
that God can work with us.
Right. And that we can reconcilewhatever that weakness,
whatever that mortality offers us
to become something stronger.
That's really helpful.
'cause I think some peopleworry that I don't wanna label,
you know, same sex attractionas like, this is a bad thing.

(14:09):
Let's, like, let's nottalk about it, bury that,
nor do I wanna talk about it.
Like, isn't it wonderful?Like, you know, triple down on
that and you know, 'cause there's,
but to frame as God gave usweakness, God gave us mortality
and to make us strong,
- It's powerful.
And if this very thing is what is going
to make me more like Jesus,why do I wanna fight it?

(14:31):
Yeah. Why do I wanna abandon it?
And yet I don't want tomove with this aspect
of weakness into an area whereI start fighting against him.
Mm-Hmm. .Or it takes me more,
it takes me further away fromthese very sensitive feelings,
spiritual feelings that,that he reserves for those
who are sincerely tryingto navigate what he

(14:55):
understands absolutely.
Perfectly. Mm-Hmm.
, you know, I,there are those who struggle
with the idea of love,
and they have labeled God as a God
who loves us unconditionally.
I've never seen that in the scriptures.
What I have seen is he has pure
and perfect love for us.

(15:17):
And I'm not tying anything else to that.
I'm not tying anything like, well,
therefore I get to, which seems to be what
unconditional love has developed into.
Therefore, I can do whateverI feel I need to do.
And God's gonna love meno matter what. Yes he is.
But I wanna develop thepure love of Christ.

(15:39):
I wanna develop, what is thisperfect love that he says,
this is gonna cast outall fear in your life,
and this is also goingto make you like me.
Mm-Hmm. . But it'sgoing to require every ounce
of energy that youpossess to develop this.
Yeah. There's another gift.It's what he does. Yeah.
- Yeah. And we surrender that to him.

(15:59):
You know, that's exactly,this is the journey.
It's gonna be maybe hard,
but it's worth that journey to go on.
Right. So maybe let's just, I'll,
I appreciate all theseprinciples you've unpacked here.
I just want to again, sort of re step back
and regroup in terms of like,what is a leadership audience
to do with all of this?
Because the last thing I wanna do is, and,
and I tried to avoid this withall these LGBT Saints, uh,

(16:23):
interviews and presentations,is I don't want
to present like, well, here's Jim ,
let's, here's Jim's formula.
Just tell everybody to do
what Jim did, ,and they'll be fine.
Right. Because that'snot helpful. And so yeah.
Like, considering all these things,
what would you say if you'respeaking to church leaders,
like how can they use this
or maybe gain a perspectivewith this information?
- Uh, that's reallygreat. So here's my take.

(16:47):
I, as somebody who experiencessame sex attraction,
who's experienced terrible anxiety
and who has been single forgoing on 68 years of my life.
- Yeah. Never married,- Right. Never married.
I'm not supposed to be exposedto leadership opportunities.
Hmm. Now I'm sorry, but that's kind of the
- Point.
Not that that's written anywhere's not,

(17:07):
but that's sort of the cultural moral.
- That's, that's the- Cultural. And you felt
that throughout your adult life? Oh,
- I have felt this all my life.
Hmm. You know, the day Iwas bab I was baptized on a
Saturday, I was confirmed on a Sunday
at church in the morning, Iwas given the onic priesthood,
I was ordained a deacon,
and I was set apart

(17:28):
as the secretary in thedeacon's quorum presidency.
That all happened within a 24hour period of time. Oh, wow.
. Yeah. And little didI know that that was going
to turn out to be momentum.
So let me just share something
because I believe, Ibelieve so deeply in the joy
and the beauty that comeswhen God steps into our lives

(17:51):
and says, I don't carewhat condition you're in,
I'm going to use you.
Hmm. And that's what he did with Alma Jr.
If you'll forgive me, the Yeah,yeah. Uh, the title there.
But that's what he did with Alma Jr.
That's what he did withso many other people.
And the Book of Mormon is filledwith these kinds of things.
And so are the scriptures. Imean, his original 12. Yeah.
So my point is, is thatin the mission field,

(18:14):
I was made a group leader,
which now would be a branch president.
I was a counselor intwo branch presidencies
after I got home at themissionary training center
where I worked, I was a counselor in Num
and Secretary numerous timesin Elders Quorum presidencies.
I was a counselor in the Bishop Rick.
I've had, this is, I'mon my fourth tour of duty
as a high counselor.

(18:35):
And at my third stake experience,
I've been a musicdirector, a choir director.
I've been a guestorganist on Temple Square.
I've been a member ofthe Tabernacle Choir.
I have had numerousassignments on a general level
with the church, bringingchoirs to general conference,
being a member of thechurch music committee
and other assignmentsthat they've given to me.

(18:56):
Now, I look back and I say,I've had to do this with my
state of weakness.
Hmm. Has this given me insight.
I mean, by educational training
and by my own experience, Iam a clinical social worker.
I'm licensed as a certified social worker.
I've done a lot of therapyin my life with people.

(19:19):
Do I have a formula, do this and this?
Then this is the outcome.I don't do formulas.
I never have Mm-Hmm.
because we're too different.
I mean, there isn't one person
in the billions that are on the earth.
That's even the same. Ourexperiences are all different.
Yeah. And because ofthat, I feel that I have

(19:39):
to be real careful with never feeling
as though I've been there,done that in anything
that I do in with church leadership.
Hmm. Being a leader in thechurch, what I always say is,
you know what, that was experienceat that particular time.
This is a new time. Hmm.
And I may have a bitof a point of reference

(20:02):
or a frame, you know, ofreference, but this is new.
Yeah. I wasn't me then. I'm me now. Yeah.
So knowing that,
and knowing, you know, beinga leader, you don't have
to have the answers, but youhave to have is the love.
And you have to have thehumility to let God help you,

(20:23):
help the person sitting across from you
or who is coming to youin incredible agony. Yeah.
- So, and it sounds like you had,
when you were given these opportunities
to serve in these variety of callings,
and it was a, a blessing to you
to have those experiences along the way,
but there's also experiences you kind
of felt like they'renot being offered to me

(20:45):
because of my state ofmatrimony or whatever it is
- That thought actually came, you know?
Yeah. I mean, I, I wouldthink through, you know,
that would pop into my headlike any normal human being.
Mm-Hmm. . ButI, my immediate response to
that was, do I want it, I mean,
- As far as like a callingor a, like a service
- Opportunity.
I don't wanna be a bishop. Why would

(21:05):
I wanna do that? ?
- Oh, that's pretty fun. You know?
- Yeah. , I actuallylook at the situation
and I say, no, I,
and if I'm not equipped forthat, I'm not equipped for that.
God's going to give me allI need to get home to him.
And if that's not included in it,
I don't necessarily wantto go after it. Right.
- So what I'm likepicking up from just sort

(21:26):
of reflecting on this experienceyou've had, is that like,
for a leader, to see anindividual, like maybe
that it's on a similar pathas, as Jim, of saying like,
I'm not gonna wait till Jim comes around
and joins the, the common path,
but I'm gonna figure outhow I can use him as much
as possible because it's inthese service opportunities.
Well, where he'll beblessed, I'll be blessed.

(21:48):
The community will be blessed. Is that
- You picking up That's,that's exactly it.
This morning, as I was thinkingmore about the, you know,
the actual outline today,
there was a very strongthought that came to me.
And that was Morro I 10, three and four.
Because that formula that Marnagave to us is not a formula
to merely know that the Bookof Mormon is true or not.
What that is, is a formula that we ought

(22:10):
to be using when we aretrying to figure out who gets
what calling, who getswhat responsibility,
who gets what assignments.
We get it, we think about it. Mm-Hmm.
, the ponderingaspect is absolutely essential.
'cause that's where therevelation starts to come.
And then the prayer is confirmation.
It's not, I'm going to goask God what God, you know?

(22:31):
No, no. It's the revelation.
The power comes whenwe're really in the deep
throes of pondering.
And so that's one of thethings that I, I, I really do
find is extremely helpful in, as a leader.
And, you know, I, I justhave to tell you this,
when I was called to the bishop, Rick,
that shocked me more than anything.

(22:53):
I didn't even think I,I mean what on earth.
And the bishop was a verysuccessful businessman.
And he said to me, what isyour counsel to me in order
for me to become a successful bishop?
And I said, well, this is my counsel.
Take it for what it's worth,if you bring your skillset
as a successful businessmaninto this environment,

(23:15):
you'll find that you'll do more damage
to the members than you will.
Good. Because the two,while you think that
that business skillset is really valuable
as an administrator, theydon't need administrators.
They don't need managers.
What the saints need are thosewho are on the same level

(23:36):
and will love them and listento them and serve them.
And that's very different than
what's in the business environment.
Mm-Hmm. , youknow, it's not what they're,
that's just not the training.
And so I, I think about this, you know,
- And I, and I'm just,
I can't help but go back to that Yeah.
Experience you had withthat bishop where he said,
I don't know what to do with you.

(23:57):
Like that, that's a very administrative,
like, this is a problem.
Your problem here at mydesk, I don't know how
to get this problem off my desk.
. You know? And, and so,
and I appreciate like that approach of
just maybe holding backthat administrative focus.
'cause there are moments,you know, you're,
there's administrative componentto being a church leader,

(24:17):
but you don't have to dothat with every individual
and especially somebodywith your life journey.
You don't want to be administered to.
You wanna be ministered to.Right. That's right. Yeah.
- And I, I love that differentiation
because, you know, I hada person that I greatly,
greatly respected.
And I to this day, lovethis gentleman who was, uh,

(24:39):
a tremendous leader in the church.
And he told me one time, weboth had a common friend,
and he said to me, you know,
the concern I haveabout this individual is
that he does not take counsel.
And I thought to myself,
because I had been working at the time
with this general authority,I thought to myself,

(25:00):
I never want that said about me.
So it completely opened up awhole new arena in my mind,
because if I was goingto be a leader, I needed
to be taking counsel fromthose that I was leading
and never feel that I had all the answers.
'cause I, you know, that's not the point.
That's why councils are

(25:21):
so vital in the church. So incredibly
- Important.
Yeah. So I feel like we've,you know, just during your sort
of your adult journey as asingle member of the church,
you've had different opportunities.
Maybe others you felt likewere passed over, even maybe
for more official reasons,
but some for just cultural reasons.
Anything else, like as youlook back at your journey,

(25:42):
like is there anythingelse that comes to mind
that would be helpful for achurch leadership audience
to better understandabout Jim's experience,
which is just Jim's experience,
but we're, that's whatwe're exploring today.
- Well, I think that it's valuable that
any leader in the churchunderstand that the individuals
that they are leadingbelong to Jesus Christ.

(26:05):
They don't belong to the church.
They have membership in the church.
But to feel as though thetight fit that they can have
with Jesus Christ is the same tight fit
that they should have in the church.
It's a misnomer. Hmm. I mean, it's so yes.
And what that means is, whileI have membership, that means

(26:25):
that I can glean everythingthat the church has to offer.
And it is rich, and yes, it isthe kingdom of God on earth.
But I also understand thatJesus has his, I really believe
that Jesus gets frustratedjust like he did in the
scriptures with things that would go on.
We read about that, that, andI don't think that everything
that happens with leaders in the church,

(26:47):
honestly are the savior's will
and what he would intend to have happen.
I was very frustrated one day.
I had been overcome
and overwhelmed by problemsthat had reared their head in,
um, in my employment at the university.
I didn't know whichdirection I could go with
how I was going to resolve this issue

(27:09):
that had been really placedsquarely on my shoulders
because there wasn't going
to be a good outcome no matter what I did.
And I was just deep in thoughtone day sitting at my desk
and all of a sudden, a very strong voice.
Now a very strong impressionas though it was a voice came
to me and it said, Jim,you have to remember

(27:33):
that my atonement also includesthe sins of the church.
Hmm. That changed everything,
the perspective I hadabout the problem, the way
that I could see to moveforward with other things.
It's not an affront.We're mortals trying to
navigate a very treacherous world,

(27:54):
and we're doing the very,very best that we can.
And we're gonna make mistakes.
And they make mistakes from the top down
because mortals don't get it, .
We just don't have the vision
that Jesus has and he's trying.
Yeah. We're trying. We're doingthe very, very best we can.
Yeah. So it doesn't mean thatI don't sustain by all means.

(28:15):
We sustain and we move forward
because that's whatour faith can teach us.
Yeah. And if things happen that aren't
so great, it's gonna be okay.
Now for a bishop or a stake president,
we just have to do the best we can.
And yeah. We're gonna make mistakes.
And there is such a thing as saying,
okay, I learned my lesson.

(28:35):
I've gotta change that attitude,
or I need to change that behavior.
We need to realize thatwe'll be doing a lot
of changing while we're serving.
Yeah. That's so important to me.
- No, I love this conceptof thinking about it as far
as like the church and what is the church.
And in church leadership,it's easy to sort of, sort
of conflate those worldsand or make 'em synonymous.

(28:55):
The church is Jesus andJesus is the church. Right.
And of course, we have adeep respect for the church.
I do as well. I love it.
And so, but sometimes it'shard when people say, well,
what do you mean, Jim,though the church has sin?
You know, and it sort oftake us back a little bit,
but this reminded me,I was reading in the,
in the Church handbook just the other day,
and in section 1.3, it's,

(29:16):
which is titled The Purpose of the Church.
I love how this is phrased,
says Jesus Christ established his church
to enable individuals
and families to assistGod in fulfilling his work
and salvation and exaltation.
And it was so pointed tome that it didn't say that
the church represents Godin all fulfilling his work.
And at the end of the day, and,

(29:36):
and this could be maybecontroversial opinion,
but we're in good company here, Jim.
So yes, , uh, .
But like, does God need the church?
Does Jesus need the churchat the end of the day?
I mean, we're talkingabout like powerful beings.
So we could come just likeeverybody's, everybody's saved.
The work is done. Wedid it all. It's done.

(29:57):
But it's such a beautiful framework
that they have establishedthis entity, this institution,
that we can all step into and say,
and God looks at us, says,Hey, can you help me out?
Because it's such a sanctifying process
and I don't, so does God need the church?
I guess the short answer is no.
Does he need the church tosanctify his children? Yeah.

(30:17):
Just like he needs mortality.He couldn't do this.
And I often make, you know,
why do we leave God'spresence if the point was just
to return to God's presence?
We lept God's presence tocome here, to be sanctified.
And the church is a beautifulbody that does that.
With that said, it's okay torecognize, ah, you know what,
there are moments that moment when the way

(30:38):
that Jim was treated in thatbishop's office with what
that bishop said, that wasn't right.
And that was hurtful.
And that was a form of sin in that moment.
Maybe that bishop turnedaway from God because
'cause of naivete of he didn'tunderstand whatever it is,
but recognized that there was hurt there
and Christ even heals that hurt.

(30:58):
Absolutely. It's areally powerful concept.
And, and one that's not,you know, in unorthodox
to any degree, it's okayto recognize the church for
what it is and thatwe're here to assist it.
- Yeah. You know, my grandfather was, um,
he was a cowboy from Montanaand he had a saying where,
and I agreed with him,we all have opinions.
They're like feet, you know,

(31:19):
- , and they allstink. Right. And they
- All stink.
Yeah. And the reality, thereality of what you're saying is,
I love the church to the point
that I'm not concernedabout having opinions
about everything that goes on.
And I have to say that if, if a bishop
or a state president willbe vigilant about those who,
those members who areshowing signs of putting into

(31:43):
executing, if you will,their exit strategy.
Hmm. This is what I seehappening around a lot.
- Now, what do you mean by exit strategy?
- There are those who, whosay, I have in the back
of my mind the straw thatwill break the camel's back.
Hmm. And that to me is they're waiting
- Like the minute I show up on Sunday

(32:04):
and that that thing is there,
that dynamic is happening, I'm done.
- Right. Or if there is toomuch of a certain dynamic
that continues to rear its head,
and I am one who do, doesbelieve that for some they need
to unplug from the churchin order to plug back in,
in a more fit, secure way.
Mm-Hmm. . Now yousay, why do, why would I draw

(32:25):
that kind of a conclusion?
Well, I believe that, thatJesus has given his authority
and his keys to this church.
I believe that theordinances are absolutely
essential for our salvation.
Those ordinances cannot be
provided by any other religiousorganization on this earth.
They do not have what this church has.

(32:46):
Now knowing that my faith is strengthened,
because guess what, even at thetemple, there are people who
make mistakes, who sin,who are doing things that
the reality is this is allGod has to get his work done.
And he's okay with it
because his atonement is covering it all.

(33:07):
He's able to have this church on the earth
because of that atoning sacrifice.
And it was the same way as he was
prepping things to get underway.
And training then comeshis atoning sacrifice,
then he returns and hegets it on the road.
He had to get Peter back on the road
because Peter was depressed as all get out

(33:30):
after all that had transpiredduring that atoning sacrifice.
And I believe that I don'tneed to have an opinion about
where the church is going.
And I don't need to have an opinion about
I'm along for this ride.
The church is the vehicle toget me where I need to be,
but I am the one who'smade the personal choice
to get into the car and to go with

(33:51):
wherever this is, wherever this right.
Is taking me with open eyes, open heart.
And yes, I'm not gonnaagree with every road
that is gonna get taken.
It's okay. But I just havefaith in the driver. Yeah.
And Jesus is there.
He's the one that'staking care of all this.
So why do we have to, why do we need
to put ourselves into thisexecution of an exit strategy

(34:14):
or whatever it may be?
I mean, that's kind oftough language to use,
but I, I'm not at fault with anyone
because at one point inmy life, I had to fight
to stay in the church.
And it was a brutal fight.
I talk about it in thebook that I wrote. Hmm.
And I don't need to bring it up here.
But it was very real to me.It was very painful to me.

(34:37):
Probably one of the mostexquisitely painful things I'd ever
experienced in my life.
But what it has done for me as a result,
has left me in a position tobe so much more compassionate
with people and so much more loving
of people no matter where they're at.
I just try to be as kind and loving

(34:57):
because God wants us todevelop three things.
He wants us to changeto become like his son.
He wants us to developpure and perfect love.
And he wants us to be forgiving.
Those are the three things thathe said this in conjunction
with, the covenants you makewith me are gonna get you home.
And heaven knows I don'twant to be anywhere else.
I don't want to be backhere again. .

(35:17):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Youknow, and, and it's hard
because sometimes, you know,we're, we're our best enemy.
We're always, we're critical,not only of things external,
but we're critical of things internal.
Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. You know,
the world is turninginto a victim world more
and more victims all the time.
And people who believe thateverything that happens
just proves that they're a victim.

(35:39):
But I, I like to ask the questionpeople who say that to me,
you know, do you understandthat you're a victim
of your own choices?
Because they don't like that idea. Yeah.
They want everything to beeverybody else is doing. Yeah.
And you know, it makes iteasier on their accountability,
which means they don't have any.
And so I try to encouragepeople, no, no, no,

(35:59):
just work with the Lord.
Get this relationshipwhere it needs to be so
that you feel a tightfit belonging to him.
Yeah. That's where it's at.That's what we have to do.
- Again, I just appreciate this.
I think this is really helpfulfor leaders to process as far
as like just seeing the churchas what it is for both you
as the leader and for the individual.

(36:20):
And you know, you talk abouthow some people need to unplug.
Like, and this is reallyuncomfortable terrain a little bit.
'cause we don't want anybodyto feel like they need
to unplug from the church.
And as a leader, we sometimeshave this reflex of, well,
let's give them threeservings of church and,
and 10 servings of temple oftenant until they figure out
that this is actually good.

(36:41):
But when somebody has anincorrect framing of the church,
whether that was, youknow, external issues
or internal issues like yousaid, that whether they were
that victim or whether theymisunderstood something
and they framed it wrong.
Just to have the faith ofsaying like, if you need
to unplug, we'll be right herewhen you're ready to come.
And I, and I sometimes, whether I'm right

(37:02):
or wrong, when I see lovedones, you know, leave the church
as we frame it, I often saythey're not leaving the church.
They're just in one bigreset. They just need a reset.
'cause how they were seeingthe church as I talked
with them, I'm thinkinglike, I don't think we go
to the same church like thisis, we're in different worlds.
Like, that's their reality for them.
And so I'm thinking, well, youcan't just push through that.

(37:23):
You have to completely reset your system.
And if that means you needto step away for a while,
we're right here readywhen you come back and,
and you know, then puttingthat savior dynamic
or putting the savior into it all, I just,
and I'm probably, you know, putting more
to these Bible stories than there is.
But, you know, sometimesChrist went to the synagogue
to engage with his people,his covenant people there.

(37:46):
Sometimes he ate with thesinners outside the synagogues.
And does that mean hecondoned their actions? No.
But he was willing to gowherever they were at and
and minister to them until they were ready
to return to his church.
You know? So I think there's,there's so much nuance there
and it, but it's worth likesitting with as a leader
and being like, you know, that's okay.
But, and I appreciate fromyour side, just you sort

(38:08):
of going on this journey whereyou had to come to terms with
what the church was for you.
That it did cause you somehurt from time to time,
maybe a lot of hurt, butthat doesn't mean you need
to run away or be bitter or,
and I'm sure there were moments
where that you experienced that.
- So here, here's my question
because I feel hurt in my family.
Mm-Hmm. do I say,

(38:28):
I'm leaving you, I neverwanna see you again.
I mean, what is this accomplishing? Yeah.
Because relationships arethe most important thing
that we can develop with one another.
Mm-Hmm. .That's where the love
and the forgiveness and the changing
to be like Christ comes into play.
Yeah. You know, I thinkwe've become immune
and we've become disenchantedwith the word repentance.

(38:49):
Hmm. So whenever I see thatword, I reframe it in my mind
as I read the scriptures.
And that is change tobecome like Jesus. Hmm.
Am I willing to change? That's a burden.
Am I willing to changethat mess that I've created
or this behavior that is bringingme untold amounts of pain?
Am I willing to make a change with this?

(39:10):
And Asama was teachingabout this whole concept
of being born again.
Well, lemme tell you something.
There's a lot of agencyin being born. Hmm.
There was agency thatwas used on the other
side to be born here.
There was agency that isused here to be born again.
And we must give this agency due respect.

(39:33):
This leads me to a, I keepgetting a nuts that I need to,
to bring up this thought.
I have met a certainpercentage of people in my life
that have sought afterleadership in the church.
I have noticed unbelievable behavior.
I have noticed what I callmastering upper impression
management so that they can is that technical term,

(39:55):
is that fall in favor with whomever makes
what they think is the decision.
I have seen those who have just thirsted
after what they perceive is ecclesiastical
privilege and power.
Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm. now.
And I've seen that on,on too many occasions.

(40:16):
I believe that when Heavenly Father
and Jesus Christ said that this is my work
and my glory, it was putin that order for a reason.
They didn't say It's my gloryand my work, by the way.
They said, it's my work first,
and this is the work that they do.
And they share it with us just like you
so beautifully pointed out.
But I really feel deeply inside

(40:38):
that we come into any calling
that we are given in the church.
Not because we get to play a role, not
because we have thishistory of watching people
do whatever they're, you know, okay,
what does it take to be a bishop?
Oh, well, a bishop does this
and the state president does this.
And if you're a highcounselor, you do this.
And you know, by the way, thehigh counselors have a bad rap

(40:59):
because, you know, they're guaranteed.
They speak generally once a month
and, you know, anesthetizethe whole congregation
because that's what they do.
You know, Uhhuh ,you, you get all this kind
of craziness because of the culture.
Uhhuh . But I, Icame to learn a long time ago
that heavenly Father will use us
and he knows what to do with us.
And he said, I know whereyou are with your gifts.

(41:21):
I know with you where youare with your weakness
and what constitutes your weakness.
I know where you're at with your faith.
I need you where you are atwith those things right now.
And I'm going to give you some work to do.
It's not gonna be for long,
but don't walk into this thinking
that you have a pride born of experience.

(41:42):
'cause that's gonnadestroy everything. Mm-Hmm.
that's a type of pride
that I have experienced in my own life
that I learned a terriblelesson about pride, born
of experience doesn'tqualify us for anything.
It makes whatever we'recalled to do worse.
We can't say, well, I've been a bishop,
or I've been a relief study president,
or gosh, I was, you know, I,I served in this capacity.

(42:05):
I know this already. I don't,
'cause it causes us todo one of two things.
Either we know it all
or we say, you know,been there, done that.
Yeah. And I love Jesus,his approach to us.
He never says it becauseof his atoning sacrifice.
He never has once said,ever been there, done that.
He has said, me too. Mm-Hmm.. And right here.
Yeah. You know this me too. Yeah.

(42:27):
So that kind of an approach from a savior.
And he's all about usgetting home, getting
through this experience here, which is so
terribly overwhelming to us.
So knowing that I take, I try to take
that approach whenever a calling comes.
There's a, I'm reminded of something
that a dear friend wroteto me many, many years ago.

(42:50):
And, uh, he, he couldn'thave been more exacting in
the, in what he told me.
And it was a gift that hegave me on my birthday,
just a, a letter.
And it wasn't very long.And this is what he said.
Can I, is that okay ifI share this Please?
He said it's reallyquite amazing to me just
how tricky life is sometimes in order
to teach us its necessarylessons, which very greatly,

(43:12):
of course, in terms of difficulty
and painfulness, I can often recognize how
so many writers have cometo cynically, describe life
as some prodigious gesturehurling us, a constant barrage
of experiences filled withsubtle mockery and painful irony.
Yet I yearn for the day of myunderstanding when the wise

(43:34):
and where force will make sense
and only hope for someadditional time in life
after that day, to be ableto live life in accordance
with such an understanding toprove even if only to myself,
that I can make the good choice.
When I understand the choices,until that day comes for each
of us, we do the best we can.

(43:55):
We hold fast to all thatis authentically beautiful,
uplifting and spiriting.
We heard our wild doubts
and ferocious castigation ofself into some safe corral.
And we hope for courage to dispel anger,
suspicion, and ranker.
So we might learn from life'slessons however painful. Wow.

(44:18):
Isn't that powerful?That is super powerful.
And I love the fact that Ihave, uh, I relate to this
on a very deep basis.
And again, anybody whochooses to pick up the book
or download the, uh, theaudible version, we'll see
that this journey thatI've been on is a journey

(44:40):
that has been strictly mine.
It is not a standard.
It is not for somebodyto say, well, to quote me
and to, to say, well, he says,this is how your life is.
No, no, this is my life.
And by the way, the fact thatI have shared what I have,
my experience with leaders,
and that's in this book, myexperience in my own religious

(45:03):
struggles, et cetera, all of
that has been very powerful to me.
And it's, it's in this bookto show me that this journey
that I've been throughin mortality is going
to serve me very, verywell in the next estate.
And I'm okay with it serving its purpose,
even though it's a toughpurpose to be, you know,
at times it's very, very difficult.

(45:24):
I am committed to the gospel.
I am committed to thekingdom of God on earth,
which is the church I'm committed
to the leadership of the church.
I'm committed to me.
And I'm committed tothe fact that all of it
is in a very fragile condition.
And it's going to be a challenge for me

(45:45):
and others moving forward.
But we move forward. Wedon't stop moving forward.
We have to keep going. Yeah.
And there's great happinessand reason to do so.
There's, there's real reason.
And the spirit's with usjust, we keep just keep going.
Don't stop, keep going. Yeah.
- I've just so much appreciated,like having this discussion

(46:06):
about life experiencesthat are quite complex,
that are sometimes difficult
and in different seasons of life.
And to use your lifeexperience just as a backdrop
and say, let's just explore
where the journey Jim'sbeen on regardless.
And I mean, you could takevarious clippings of this
and even think this is an LGBT,you know, uh, conversation.
But, and, and it's nothing.

(46:27):
But I mean it's everything about that.
And it's everything about,it's a conversation about
mortality, about weaknessthat, uh, we find in, in ether.
And so I'm, I've, the one question I have,
'cause I'm sure there'speople if maybe, you know,
return missionary Jim wasreturn missionary Jim in 2023,
you know, at 20 early twenties,someone may look at you

(46:49):
and say, Jim, if you continuein this path of trying
to stay in the church and whatnot,
you, you'll never be happy
- Or- Able to be a mistake.
And now that with hindsight,here we are on, you know,
at least you're in yoursecond half of your life.
What would you say to that if someone
said that to you back then?
- Oh boy, that is a loadedquestion, , because that's

(47:11):
- What we do here.
- . I have had morethan one person say to me,
what are you gonna do whenyou get to the other side
and find out that itwas really okay with God
to act out on your own sexual feelings
or your own thoughts, etcetera, to the point to
where you have a partner?
Or are you married or whatever, you know,
and you didn't take advantage of it.

(47:33):
Well, my response has alwaysbeen, I don't know what, what,
what I will say if that was, was the case.
But I know one thing I'm not gonna say
is that I want to do over.
Hmm. Because what I'veexperienced is generalized anxiety
and SSA for more than 60 years of my life,

(47:54):
and they have been my constant
unfailing companionsalong this whole journey.
I'm okay. I don't wanna look back
and say, oh, mortality was absolutely
and unquestionably the mostfulfilling experience I have
ever had in my entire life.
, I don't need that
because eternity is goingto be, I'm looking forward

(48:14):
to what happens after.
And you know what, I'mokay with whatever father
and Jesus decide to do.
Yeah. I'm not afraid of judgment day.
I've done a lot of thingsthat haven't been as wholesome
and good as I should have been.
This is me. And people say,well, you figured it all out.
No, I haven't. I'm just tellingpeople what I've experienced
and what I would recommend.

(48:35):
But five more years, 10 moreyears will definitely influence
because I will be growing and progressing
and moving forward.
So again, that's why I go back
and say I'm not a standard for anybody.
I don't, I'm not sayingthat my life is a formula
for one single soul.
What I'm saying is if there'ssomething that moves you,

(48:55):
that I say, or that I have written
and it resonates withyou, then you go on it
because it's resonating in you, not in me.
Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's what I've been
and what I've experienced.
So We'll keep moving. Isthe battle still fierce?
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
And there's new weapons allthe time, you know, so true.
We keep going. Yeah.
Everybody's facing somethingwith the same intensity.

(49:18):
Everybody faces this intensity.It's the same thing. Yeah.
- Well, any point principleconcept that we didn't,
I don't wanna make sure we hit or do
- We, we hit a lot. I do
- We cover it at all?
- I hope you, when you edit this down,
it's longer than 10 minutes. So
- , I think I haveplenty of work with you.
So I, again, I've just appreciated
exploring your life journey

(49:38):
and seeing how it's made you a better
disciple of Jesus Christ.
Uh, the last question I have for you is,
well let's first let mefirst ask if people do want
to check out your book, what's the title?
And we'll link to it in theshow notes and all that, but Oh,
- That's great.
Um, it's called To Belong to Him.
It's, um, about 200
and, I don't know, 50something, some odd pages.
And it's through Amazonthat you can get it.

(49:59):
And Amazon Audible also has therecorded version that I did,
and so it's my voice.
Oh, cool. So now you reallycan , you know, you can,
you can really find all kinds of fault
or whatever you want toand anything that you find,
I just hope and pray thatas you read through things,
that there will be a feelingof this is his experience

(50:19):
as opposed to have an opinion about it
and being critical, et cetera.
Yeah. We, we don't fashion our lives
after being critical about Paul's life
before he became an apostle.
And we don't get criticalabout Alma's life
before he became, you know, what he was,
we're more concerned aboutwhat is this all about
and what happened to themand where did they go?
That was right. Yeah. So anyway. Awesome.

(50:41):
- And I would imagineit's a book that maybe a,
a church leader could give to
somebody who's on a similarlife path, not as a model
or just do what Jim did,
but, uh, maybe they'dfind deeper understanding
and connection to the saviorby hearing more of your story.
- Right. That's the whole point. Yeah.
It's what belonging to himis about in my mind. Yeah.
Love it. And there arethose that are feeling

(51:02):
that they're not alone,and that's all I care.
Nice. I, this isn't about me as much
as it is getting back to the savior.
- Love it. Last question Ihave for you is, I wanted you
to maybe shift into the leadership
experience you've had in life.
You're currently on a stake high council
and you've been inBishop Ricks and things.
How has being a leader helped you become a
better follower of Jesus
- Christ?
Hmm. I'll tell you, reallydevelop a deep sense of

(51:25):
compassion, a deep sense of
watching other people in the challenges
and pain that they'regoing through as leaders,
because they don't have all these answers
that everybody thinks they should.
And I am a better follower of the savior
because he's the one thatwe all should be following

(51:46):
and we should besustaining the leadership.
Now. That's a conversationthat we ought to be having
with Jesus and with, you know,with our father in heaven,
especially over how do I navigate this?
You know, if there's aconcern that we have,
and I've navigated an awful lot, you know,
22 years working at the university
and working with generalauthorities and general officers

(52:08):
and working with all kinds ofleadership on, on the campus,
things didn't always go theway I thought they ought to go.
And that's okay. Things still move along.
We need to do the best thatwe can to love and support
and forgive and makechanges in our own lives,
and stop demanding thateverybody else make changes.
You know, this is, we need to be changing

(52:28):
and we make the greatestchange when we see
the greatest paradoxes.
That's where the truth is at.
Truth is in paradox,
and that's where the saviorwants us to learn from.
- That concludes this episodeof the Leading Saints podcast.

(52:50):
Hey, listen, would you do me a favor?
You know, everybody's got thatfriend who listens to a ton
of podcasts and maybe theyaren't aware of Leading Saints,
so would you mind takingthe link of this episode
or another episode of Leading Saints
and just texting it to that friend?
You know who I'm talking about, the friend
who always listens to podcasts
and is always telling youabout different podcasts?
Well, it's your turn to tell

(53:11):
that friend about Leading Saints.
So share it. We'd alsolove to hear from you.
If you have any perspective
or thought on this episode, youcan go to leading saints.org
and actually leave a commenton the uh, episode page
or reach out to us atleading saints.org/contact.
Remember, go to leadingsaints.org/fourteen
to hear the Packard family's experience

(53:31):
of when loved ones leave the church.
- It came as a result ofthe position of leadership,
which was imposed uponus by The God of heaven
who brought forth arestoration of the gospel

(53:53):
of Jesus Christ.
And when the Declarationwas made concerning the own
and only true
and living church uponthe face of the earth,
we were immediately put ina position of loneliness.
The loneliness of leadershipfrom which we cannot shrink
nor run away, and to whichwe must face up with boldness

(54:16):
and courage and ability.