Part 1: The Unwritten Order of Things—A Review

Kurt Francom, Executive Director of Leading Saints, shares his thoughts on the unwritten order of things—a term popularized by Elder Boyd K. Packer in a BYU devotional in October 1996. This phrase has influenced leadership culture in the Church, often being used as a trump card to justify certain practices or norms that are not explicitly documented in church handbooks. Listen to a reading of the original devotional. Links Is Aspiring Wrong? Church Doctrine, Policy, & Leadership | An Interview with Anthony Sweat Y Religion: Defining Church Doctrine, with Michael Goodman The Role of Doubt and Faith | An Interview With Prof. Michael Goodman Share your thoughts in the Leading Saints community Read the transcript of this podcast Get 14-day access to the Core Leader Library Highlights Kurt explores the context of Elder Packer's talk, highlighting the challenges of leadership in the 1990s when handbooks were not publicly accessible. He emphasizes the importance of understanding the principles behind leadership practices rather than blindly adhering to unwritten rules that may not serve the best interests of the community. He outlines the ten unwritten orders of things mentioned by Elder Packer, assessing whether each principle is supported by the church handbook. While some of these principles align with current guidelines, others are not formally recognized, raising questions about their validity and application in modern leadership. Kurt encourages listeners to consider the implications of using the unwritten order of things as a means of manipulation or control, and advocates for a more open dialogue about leadership best practices, urging leaders to communicate their expectations clearly rather than relying on vague traditions. He invites listeners to engage in this conversation, share their experiences, and contribute to a culture of effective leadership where the church can more-effectively draw people to Christ. 00:02:47 - Context of Elder Packer's Talk 00:04:11 - The Unwritten Order of Things Explained 00:05:24 - Weaponization of the Unwritten Order 00:06:05 - Importance of Context in Leadership 00:07:51 - Changes in Handbook Accessibility 00:09:05 - Elder Packer's Teaching Style 00:10:08 - Challenges in Communicating Leadership Guidelines 00:11:22 - The Role of General Authorities in Leadership 00:12:03 - Misinterpretation of the Unwritten Order 00:13:40 - Elder Packer's Ten Unwritten Orders 00:14:01 - Analysis of Each Unwritten Order 00:19:05 - The Role of Personal Counsel in Leadership 00:20:30 - Observing Church Customs and Traditions 00:21:23 - Setting a Tone of Dignity in Meetings 00:22:06 - The Balance of Leadership and Followership 00:23:20 - Binding Nature of the Unwritten Order 00:24:03 - Current Unwritten Orders in Leadership 00:25:07 - The Tyranny of General Authority 00:26:20 - The Importance of Local Leadership Autonomy 00:27:34 - Principles vs. Prescriptions in Leadership 00:29:41 - Establishing Best Practices in Leadership 00:30:57 - Conclusion: Moving Beyond the Unwritten Order The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints' mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler,

Episode Transcript

(00:02):
Okay. So you're here for some great church
leadership content. The podcast is great, but there's
also another piece of content you need to
be enjoying
each week. It is the Leading Saints email
newsletter. Now I get it. Email newsletters feel
so 2,006,
you know, but it isn't as old fashioned
as you might think. It's actually one of

(00:22):
the most popular pieces of content that Leading
Saints produces.
Each week, I share a unique leadership thought
that can only be found in the newsletter.
I keep it short and sweet. Most can
read it in less than five minutes. And
then we share with you recent content you
might have missed, throwback episodes, and Leading Saints
events that happen more often than you might
anticipate. If you want to make sure you

(00:44):
are on the email list, simply visit leadingsaints.org/fourteen.
That's leadingsaints.org/1four.
That will also get you fourteen days access
to our full library of content not available
to the general public. So look for Leading
Saints in your inbox by going to leadingsaints.org/14
or click the link in the show notes.

(01:10):
Hey. If you're a newbie to Leading Saints,
it's important that you know what is this
Leading Saints thing. Well, Leading Saints is a
nonprofit organization
dedicated to helping Latter day Saints be better
prepared to lead. And the way we do
that is through content creation. So we have
this phenomenal podcast. We have a newsletter. We
have virtual conferences,
so much more. And articles on our website.

(01:32):
I mean, I could go on and on.
Right? And we encourage you to, jump in,
check out Leading Saints. Go to the search
bar at leadingsaints.org
and type in some topics and see what
pops up. We're just glad you're here to
join us.

(01:54):
Everyone, welcome back to Leading Saints podcast. Today,
it's a monologue
episode where I'm gonna jump on here, and
we actually recorded this in the Leading Saints
community, which if you're not a part of,
we're gonna do more and more things like
this where you can actually participate
in some of the recordings of the Leading
Saints podcast, ask questions, and contribute thoughts, and
disagree with me or disagree with the guests

(02:15):
or whatever, and just continue to to foster
some really interesting discussion around leadership. Now the
topic today is the unwritten order of things.
And sometimes this phrase, I don't know if
you've heard it before. Maybe you've just heard
it in the context of a meeting and
just thought it was a cute phrase that
Latter day Saints use.
And from time to time, it gets referenced
here on Leading Saints. And sometimes I'll even

(02:36):
get an email and say, hey, girl. I
don't know if you know this, but the
unwritten order of things is actually comes from
a talk by Elder Packer that he gave
at BYU. And I'm like, oh,
believe me. I'm well aware of this talk.
I find this talk really interesting
because
it has had a such a unique impact
on
the leadership
culture of the church. Because from time to

(02:58):
time, as I've gone through various assignments and
even growing up in my home and learning
about leadership from my father and he served
in various leadership roles, this phrase would often
come up, the unwritten order of things.
And basically, it kinda gets framed as in,
oh, those are the things that maybe obviously
aren't written down, but we should definitely do.
And this is interesting because

(03:19):
as we throw this phrase around, I often
think, well, have people even, like, listened to
this talk? Right? I'm gonna give you an
opportunity at the end of this up episode.
I'm gonna read through the talk. Like, if
you wanna listen just wanna hear the full
talk. Very interesting talk. Very interesting tone as
Elder Packer always always had. Now before we
get into this, I do wanna give a
shout out to Dave Lefevre, Sean Lesko, and

(03:40):
Jared Goudot
who kinda helped me process
this talk. And we we all read it.
We came together. We we highlighted different things,
pointed out different dynamics. And so shout out
to them for helping me put my thoughts
together and see what we learn here. So
what is the unwritten order of things?
There's actually a BYU devotional, as I said,

(04:00):
a BYU devotional given by Elder Packer in
October of nineteen ninety six.
K? So in my mind I mean, that's
not too long ago. I was, was 14.
So, I mean, I I wasn't aware of
this until many years later. But as the
leaders understand, there's a consistent reference to this
this talk. And often, it's in the context
of, like, oh, that's just the way we

(04:22):
do these things. Right? That's just the way
it's done. That's the unwritten order of things.
So it's almost like this trump card of,
like, oh, you can't disagree with us because
that's part of the unwritten order of things.
Right? So it might be a setting, a
council of some type, and maybe the leader
says, oh, and be sure
that when you
that when the presiding authority speaks in a
church meeting that nobody speaks after that person.

(04:42):
So I say, well, what what do you
where's that written? Oh, no. No. That's part
of the unwritten order of things. Right? So,
unfortunately, this concept gets weaponized from time to
time to push an agenda or an opinion
that isn't in the handbook,
that isn't written down anywhere. But for some
reason, we have,
this unwritten order of things. And sometimes I
wanna say, can someone just write down the
unwritten order of things so that it's we

(05:04):
know what we're you know, there's not the
secret game going on? And so this has
been a an excuse to push cultural norms,
the good, the bad, the ugly. And some
of them I, you know, agree with. Some
of the things that other packer says and
he was like, yeah. I can get behind
that. I think we should do that. However,
doesn't necessarily mean it's in the handbook. Doesn't
necessarily mean everybody should do it. Right? And
sometimes there's this feeling of, like, the secret

(05:26):
leadership club. Right? Like, oh, yeah. You're a
leader, but I I know how to really
be a leader. Like, I know the right
and wrong things to do, the unwritten order
of things. I have a good friend who
served a mission who, his mission president would
spend time in his own conference teaching the
unwritten order of things. And he once went
through the list of these things with me
as far as everything from how to give

(05:46):
a blessing to how to run a meeting
and and just inserting all these rules that,
again, aren't written anywhere, but it was sort
of this feeling of like, okay. I'm a
you know, I'm an accomplished mission presence. I'm
gonna teach you the unwritten order of things.
And I guess my hope is that we
maybe just pause and
consider
why we do things, where do things come
from, and reassess because,

(06:07):
like I said, these things can push cultural
norms, a lot of good cultural norms, but
also some that aren't so good or outdated
that aren't helping us. So so let's put
it all into context. A few questions I'm
gonna explore here about the, this talk, the
unwritten order of things is what's the context?
What does this talk even say? Is it
binding?
Right? Was it in the handbook or the

(06:28):
written order of things? Right? That would be
the handbook, the written order of things. So
Elder Packer mentions a whole lot of different
things and doesn't necessarily mean it's in the
handbook. Right? So what's the context? 1996
in the church, those of you that remember
that time, if you were in a bishop
in the nineties, this was even in my
time when I first started in a bishopric
where handbooks weren't publicly available. Now they're so

(06:49):
easy. Like, literally every member of the church
who's downloaded the gospel library app can open
up the handbook, the general handbook, and read
from it. Right? Now
there were two handbooks, at least in my
time. I'm sure going back even further, there
are several more handbooks. But during my time,
there were the first part of my leadership
time, there were two different handbooks. Right? There
are two different colors. One was the a

(07:10):
general handbook, I think trying to think it
was book two that you could that you
could, you know, distribute widely. And book one
had to be under lock and key in
the filing cabinet in the bishop or the
clerk's office. Right? Or the bishop's office. And
so book two, you could, like you know,
you call Sunday school president. Hey. Here's the
book two. Why don't you sometimes I would
photocopy
different pages of that, you know, the Sunday

(07:31):
school section and and give it to them.
Hey. Just so you know, here's some guidance
on your calling, right, as you start as
a as a Sunday school president or even,
you know, working with youth or pretty much
every calling had at least a paragraph in
the handbook. Well, in 1996,
this it was even hard to get ahold
of the handbook two to even know what
your calling was about. But book
one, if I'm remembering the numbers right, was

(07:53):
under lock and key, like I said. So
I remember being called to a bishop break,
and I finally got access. I could actually
look in the handbook as long as I
was reading it in the clerk's office or
the bishop's office. I think if I remember
right, we all each got one. And but
we I I don't know if, again, it
was maybe in the unwritten order of things
that you had to keep them locked up
in the filing cabinet of church rather than
carry around. I remember many times these got

(08:13):
leaked and put online and, you know, the
PR department would obviously have an issue with
that, whatever. And now it's kinda just transferred
just to, you know, to just make it
publicly available.
So I think it's really it's understanding the
context of this is that understanding leadership and
the process of the church with handbooks not
being available, this was sort of, an anomaly.

(08:34):
Like, it was sort of behind the scenes,
behind the curtain, and people didn't really know
how the administration of the church worked or
why we do things. And and so it
was much easier back then to kinda see
something the bishop does and think, oh, well,
that's just how it's done. He must have
some guidance somewhere that tells him to do
these things. Right? So another thing to consider
is Elder Packer was a teacher. So naturally,

(08:54):
he wanted to teach leadership, and this was
a great forum to a bunch of BYU
students, an upcoming,
you know, crop of of future leaders to
begin to talk about leadership concepts to them.
And so makes sense that elder Packer would
take an opportunity to teach at a in
a university, right, in this setting. And, so
I think it was a natural direction for
him to go. He was also, as many

(09:16):
of you know, very opinionated.
There's some moments in this talk. As I
read it, I'm sort of like, oh, feel
like sometimes using a lot of shame with
leaders to teach him a lesson and those
things, which I don't know if I would
do that way. Right? Another thing to consider,
it was challenging to communicate leadership guidelines and
update handbooks.
And so, like, today, they can make a
ham an update in the handbook, and it's
just, you know, as you sleep, updates in

(09:37):
the app. And you don't sometimes
as a leader, I'm looking through the handbook
on the app, and I wonder,
I know this was the case, you know,
a few years ago. I better check again
to make sure it hasn't changed. Well, back
then, it was
extremely rare to get a new crop of
handbooks, get a new addition of the handbooks.
And so this evolving,
leadership guidance just wasn't there. So maybe a
BYU devotional was a great venue to talk

(10:00):
about leadership and make some tweaks to it.
Right? Another thing is during this time of
the church, there was tremendous growth that was
happening. And how do you stay on top
of developing all these leaders around the world?
And
so I think this was just another way
that not that maybe the quorum of the
12 came together and said, Elder Packer, go
to BYU and teach them about leadership. But

(10:21):
I think every general authority or apostle or
member of the first prince who was looking
for opportunities to teach these concepts because it
was very difficult to quickly update the handbook
and the church was growing so fast. Right?
President Hinckley, another kinda you get this vibe
from president Hinckley as he this was just
one year later, president Hinckley gave his talk
where he talked about every member needs a

(10:41):
friend of responsibility and the nourishment of the
good word of God. Right? So there's these
little
nuance like
the guidance
pieces of guidance that various general authorities were
inserting in their talks to say, hey. This
is maybe a a way of leadership to
consider. Right? Another thing that, happened just a
few years before this, but Elder Ballard's counsel
with our councils came a few years earlier

(11:03):
in October of ninety three and April of
nineteen ninety four. Then later, I think in
'97
is when it actually got published as a
book. So many of you might be familiar
with the council with our council's book, but
you should know that actually started as a
series of general conference talks that he then
turned into a book. Right? Another thing to
consider for context, this is not published online

(11:24):
by BYU talks. I don't know if it
was back then if, you know, the Internet
was pretty young, so I'd be surprised if
they're publishing in that time. But you can
go into BYU talks and find this talk.
So I don't know what that means or
why, but it's something to consider. Right? That
maybe the church isn't perpetuating this talk even
though that's why I'm dressing it conservative leading
saints. It gets perpetuated a lot in leadership

(11:45):
circles.
Next is, what does the talk even say?
Because oftentimes, this is like an umbrella term
that gets people insert their own unwritten order
of things and kinda blame it on Elder
Packer, right, or blame it on this talk
of the unwritten order of things. Or something
might trying to think of an example, but,
well, I guess one example that comes to
mind was to talk about is when the

(12:06):
presiding authority speaks in sacred meaning, the unwritten
order of things, you might hear it said
like this, gives us a direction
that
nobody should speak after them. You see this
in general conference. So let's say president Eyring
is conducting the meeting. President Nelson's gonna speak.
President Eyring will get up before president Nelson's

(12:27):
talk, and he'll say all the closing things.
Right? We're now gonna hear from our beloved
prophet. The choir will then sing this. This
will conclude this session or this general conference
or whatever. Like, he never gets up after
president Nelson. Right? Now that's a good model.
However,
does that mean we have to do in
sacrament meeting? Right? Well, it's not on the

(12:47):
handbook that way. Right? There's some guidance on
what presiding authorities do,
but it never says that nobody can speak
after presiding authority. And this actually came up
when I was serving in the state presidency.
We had a visiting 70. It was an
area 70 that came to town. He visited
a ward, and this young bishopric I mean,
nobody taught them the unwritten order of things,
and he stood up. You know, the presiding

(13:10):
authority gave some closing remarks, and then this
bishopric second council or whatever stood up and
announced the closing him the closing prayer. Right?
Well, that visiting area seventy sent us a
email kinda in a negative fashion to correct
this bishopric number, and I'm thinking, well, wait
a minute. Like, are we supposed to teach
him these arbitrary rules and and unwritten order

(13:32):
things when they're not written down anywhere? Like,
how are we supposed to know what unwritten
things to to write down? Well, Elder Packer
never talks about that in this talk, but
sometimes it gets kinda just thrown in with,
oh, that's part of the unwritten order of
things. Like, well, who determines what's in the
unwritten order of things? Right? So let me
just go over real quick. What are the
10 unwritten order of things that Elder Packer

(13:52):
states? Now there's a few nuance ones that
he in inserts in there, but I went
through the talking here are the 10 things
the elder packer mentions as the unwritten order
of things, and then we're gonna determine if
they're in the handbook or not. K? The
first one, the person presiding in a meeting
should sit on the stand or at the
front near the person conducting.
Is it in the handbook?

(14:12):
No. It's not in the handbook. Okay? Now
this is to me, this is really good
practice because if someone's presiding in a meeting,
like, it'd be good to sit next to
them if you're conducting the meeting because then
they can direct you on how this meeting
is gonna go. Right?
So if we're ending where if we're only
singing one verse of the closing hymn, you
know, as I did as a bishop there,
and the stake presidency member was there. I

(14:33):
turned to them and say, hey. We're overtime.
Do you wanna just sing the the first
verse only in the hymn? Right? And then
I would stand up and announce that if
that's the direction that it would go. So,
again, good practice. I would probably recommend it,
but I would never create the perception that
this is in the handbook because it's not
in the handbook. Right? Alright. Next one. The
first counselor in a presidency sits on the
right of the presiding officer. I think this

(14:54):
is part
a tradition that continues today. Right? Is it
in a handbook? No. It's not in the
handbook.
Again, I guess you could do that. I
don't think it's hurting anything, but I also
don't think it hurts anything if, you know,
maybe the second council likes to run the
the lectern, you know, controls or whatever
or the microphone controls. Right? But, again, this
is one of those things that's out there

(15:15):
that you had written order things, but it's
not in the handbook. Members should not write
to general authorities for personal counsel. Instead,
seek counsel from your bishop who may refer
you to the stake president if needed.
Alright. Is it in the handbook?
Yeah. I think so. It's, in handbook thirty
one two
point two point one point two instructs members

(15:36):
to seek guidance from local leaders, bishops, or
state presidents
aligning with this principle. So, yeah, ideally, don't
write general authorities. And, even though they talk
about in general conference talks of members writing
them, seeking guidance all the time, which is
kind of ironic. But and I think it's
good for people to know that when you
write a general authority, an apostle or somebody,

(15:57):
often, if not always, gets forwarded to your
stake president or to your bishop. So if
you're writing them and you think your bishop
won't read it, you're probably wrong. Alright. Next
one is for blessings,
go to your parents.
If unavailable, then to your home teacher. Obviously,
you're ministering brother. Is it a handbook?
No. It's not in the handbook.
You know, it's definitely kind to maybe not

(16:18):
overload the bishop
with requests for blessings or your leaders like
that. And hopefully, you've built friendships that you
can turn to individuals, and there's nothing it's
not like you get more power from a
blessing because somebody is more experienced or more
articulate
those things. So alright. This next principle that
Elder Packer talks about is the line of
authority for revelation and counsel is vertical and

(16:40):
should be respected. Leaders receive revelation in their
own stewardships.
So this is in part of saying that,
you know, if a elder court president has
a question, he should go to his bishop
or stake president. If a bishop has a
question, he should go or needs advice, he
should go to a stake president.
Is this in the handbook? I would say
no. You're encouraged to have receive revelation and

(17:00):
go that direction,
but it doesn't necessarily prohibit anybody you can
talk to. So elder Packer kind of put
it in this that if you are a
bishop and another family member's a bishop or
coworker is also a bishop, you shouldn't go
to them for counsel. However, I just feel
that that's limiting. Right? Especially the guy who
produces leading saints where we gather a community

(17:22):
online where we discuss different leadership points. I
don't think there's anything wrong with going online,
reading something, being inspired, and trying something different.
Right? Or hearing how another guy in a
different country or in a different state approaches
his calling and you do something different. I
think that's what Zion looks like. Right? And
using modern day technology to share those ideas,
This is a good thing. Right? And I

(17:44):
I just think of how many bishops or
stake presidents or really excited presidents out there
have a degree in organizational behavior but never
draw upon that what they learned in that
degree.
So, again, this is another one that's kinda
I don't know if it really
has any feet to stand on in in
2025.
Alright. Next principle is never reject a calling
except assignments given through proper priesthood channels. Is

(18:07):
it in the handbook to never reject or
a calling?
No. It is not in the it is
not in the handbook. He also talks about
in this talk about not aspiring.
I did a great episode on that if
I do say so myself. It's called is
aspiring wrong.
So we'll link to that, and you can
you can listen to that. So, yeah, I
think a lot of the church, a lot
of the culture shifted on this as far

(18:28):
as never reject a calling or accept assignments
given through proper priesthood channels. I think we
just live in a different time with the
dynamics of callings and responsibility of modern day
life and children and
obstacles they face in modern society and the
time at home and family. Like, I think
people are rejecting callings a lot now, not
to say that they're all justified in rejecting
that. I remember being in a bishopric and

(18:48):
feeling like, I can't get anybody help out
here. Like, nobody's accepting callings. Right? So,
no, that is not in the handbook.
Next one.
At funerals, the focus should be on preaching
the gospel rather than talking extensively about the
deceased.
Is that in the handbook?
Yeah. Yeah. It is. Encourage simple spiritual this
is a handbook chapter twenty nine point five

(19:10):
point four. Encourages simple spiritual services but doesn't
prohibit eulogies,
a partial
So there's a partial, alignment here. I think,
you're reading in the talk, Elder Packer's pretty
strong on this one as far as telling,
you know, funny anecdotes or stories.
But I don't know. I I think most
we do pretty good job there, and I

(19:32):
think the family deserves a little bit of
autonomy there with how the funeral is conducted
to not only, you know, preach the gospel,
but also
honor and value the person who is deceased.
Alright. The next one. I think this is
seven of 10 eight of 10. There is
value in learning church customs and traditions through
observation and experiences. These are not always written

(19:53):
in handbooks or taught in classes.
No. It's not in handbook. To me, this
is kind of a dangerous one. I mean,
that's maybe strong language, but, I mean, yeah,
great ideas can be perpetuated as as we
know by observing another person doing it. But
terrible ideas can also be perpetuated by observing
someone doing it, Right? Even a
leader. So
I think we, you know,

(20:14):
we might be wise stewards, right, by observing
what leaders are doing, but also not just
assuming that everything that leader's doing has to
be done that way. Right? So many traditions
are being done in the church where if
you ask the leader, why do you do
that? I don't know. It's just the way
it's always been done. Right? Alright. Next one.
The unwritten order sets a tone of dignity
and order in meetings and activities,

(20:36):
though it is not so rigid that the
church will fall apart if not always strictly
observed. So this is kind of a vague
one. The the unwritten order sets a tone
of dignity and order. So basically saying
leadership should be done with dignity and order.
Right? Meeting should be conducted with dignity and
order. Yeah. Is that in the handbook?
No. I mean, not specifically. I I think,
generally, there's the guidance in the handbook to

(20:58):
be respectful and reverent and honor God and
be appropriate. Right? But so it's not necessarily
in the handbook, but it's still great advice.
Right?
So that's maybe a question for
a word council to wrestle with is how
do you maintain dignity? How do you do
that? Are we doing it? Are we getting
to to relax in some areas? How can
we make sure dignity is consistent?

(21:19):
Alright. Next one. A good leader is also
a good follower, respecting the established order and
authority.
Is it required a good leader should be
a good follower? Is that in the handbook?
No. But, again, good advice. Right? There were
a few others in here in the talk
that were those seem like soapbox of some
moments
that Elder Packer was taking, which believe me,
I love a good soapbox moment as I

(21:42):
essentially, my weekly newsletter that I put out
like, he mentions that the talk that when
you're sustaining someone to a calling, that you
should use their full name. Right? Maybe not
their middle name or the middle initial, but
if they're if they're Chuck, you know, they
should be called Charles. Right? Or if it's,
Sal, you'd her full name's Sally or whatever
it is. So, again,

(22:02):
is that in the handbook? I mean, no.
But
throughout the time, there's just these soapbox moments,
and that's the tough thing about the unwritten
order things. I don't know when other packers
like soapboxing
or when he's, like, giving clear direction
about leadership principles. Right?
So the third thing, I've kinda gone through,
given you a summary of those 10 things
that are in the unwritten like, what are

(22:23):
the actual unwritten order things? So if somebody
says, well, yeah, Elder Packer
talked about this in the unwritten order thing.
You say, no. He didn't. That's not in
there. So does that mean it's in the
unwritten order things? Right? So
is this binding? Like, do these unwritten order
things suddenly become written order things because they're
written down? Right? Or maybe president Packard

(22:43):
or elder Packard told BYU, like, hey. Don't
publish this talk because I wanted to remain
unwritten. Right? It can be spoken but not
written. So is it binding? Well, one thing
to consider is BYU didn't publish it. Right?
Which shows a lack of endorsement
by an institutional body of the church. And
there is a lot of history about a
an apostle publicly speaking

(23:04):
about things that aren't necessarily accurate. I mean,
elder McConaughey, elder Benson right there and there's
several others where things are said, but it
doesn't necessarily mean that they're that's now like
law or it's binding or leaders have to
do these things. The other thing that again,
I don't think elder Packer was meaning for
this to happen, but this can be very
manipulative.
Right? By using this arbitrary phrase or pointing

(23:27):
toward this talk about some arbitrary, like things
that are done in the church and then
making someone feel like they have to do
a certain way because it's in the unwritten
order of things. So I think it's weaponized
in these ways too, and it can be
manipulative to for a leader to get his
way because he kinda just throws it in
the unwritten order of things bucket. So is
there a current unwritten order of things? I'd

(23:47):
be interested to for you to, comment on
this post in the leading saints community. And,
yeah, what are some current unwritten order things
that aren't mentioned
in
Elder Packer's talk that still get perpetuated?
I think and hear me out here. Like,
in this commentary here that I'm giving, I'm
not saying, like, the unwritten order things are
bad. Like, many of these unwritten order things

(24:08):
I agree with. To me, it could be
framed as leadership best practices, and that's what
we try and do at Leading Saints. Right?
That we're trying to broadcast and share as
many leadership best practices as possible. Now there's
oftentimes when I sit down with somebody to
interview them and we're going through the interview,
in my brain as they're talking about a
certain concept, I'm thinking, I disagree with you
on that. Now sometimes I may bring it

(24:29):
up or say, you know, play the devil's
advocate or whatever.
But at the same time, I don't feel
like I'm not gonna pretend like I have
it all figured out. And so maybe these
principles of this other person sharing, these are
just best practices.
The thing with best practices, they could be
adjusted or shot down or or disagreed with
or you know, depending on where you live,
you know, local adaptation

(24:49):
should definitely play a role. Right? And so
there is this other part of it that
I call it the tyranny of general authority.
Right? I mean, we love our general authorities.
We have them visit our state conferences. We
listen to them in in general conference and
but it's so often the general authority can
come to
a stake or whatever
and state something, and it comes with more

(25:10):
weight as it should. Right? However,
everybody in a state presidency has experienced this
where visiting authorities come and sort of gone
off about something about he's observing in the
stake, but he's literally only been there a
few hours. He doesn't have the breadth or
the scope that the stake presidency has about
the different problems in the ward or in
the stake. And so
it's completely appropriate for that stake president to

(25:32):
say, I get the elder so and so
felt this way about this thing. However,
using the keys and perspective we have now
that general authority has left, we will take
his counsel and discuss it and counsel over
it. However,
we have a lot more information than he
does. And so we're gonna continue on this
path we're going or adjust it slightly different
keeping in mind the things that we were
instructed. Right? So that that tyranny of the

(25:55):
general authority, and this is as I've had
opportunity to meet with the priesthood and family
department at the church, like, I don't envy
them because they're in such a tough spot
where they're writing handbooks for an international church.
And so they can't put this or that
thing in there because that may mean something
in the church in Africa as opposed to
the church in Latin America as opposed to
The United States church. Right? And it hits

(26:16):
differently, and so they have to be very
intentional and be very broad or very careful
with it what they put in there. Right?
So an authority comes to town
and makes an observation
and makes a statement, sometimes we think, oh,
I think that's sort of scripture. We have
to do that. Right? And so with elder
Packer going to BYU and saying these things,
it comes with that heaviness of there's this
feeling of, you know,

(26:37):
this very meta moment here where, oh, I
think you can see in the unwritten order
of things that I have to do everything
that a general authority says. Right? When in
reality, we have beautiful theology about priesthood keys
and authority
that local church leaders can make those decisions
and point in the right direction. Right? So,
yeah, there are unwritten order things, and that's
what we talk about, but they're more I'd

(26:58):
like to frame them best as leadership
best practices.
Leadership through observation.
This is really fascinating to me because, you
know, elder Packer is sort of proponent of
this. Like, some of the the best training
he's got was being the state clerk and
and observing the state president go about their
business and things he learned when he was
up in those positions. Right? And I could
go throughout my

(27:19):
journey of leadership and state, you know, leader
after leader that I serve with and state
several things that I learned from each leader.
But I could probably go through each leader
and say, you know, I observe the things
that I'm definitely not gonna do that I
definitely avoided. Right? So it's sort of this
double edged sword here.
And we do have a tradition of learning
leadership through observation.
And, unfortunately, that's kinda led to this

(27:40):
hierarchy of,
like, you know, only bishopric members can become
bishops, and only former bishops can become state
presidents, and only former presidents become mission presidents.
Only former mission presidents become seventies. Right? Which
I get and makes sense. However,
there's a ton of priesthood
that leaves out a ton of priesthood who
never get an opportunity
to serve in some of these incredible involved

(28:01):
formal intense roles
because they don't have that experience because just
the math doesn't work out. Right? 40 people
in a ward can't be bishop at the
same time. Only one can. And so that
leaves a lot of men to acquire that
experience where I feel like if someone's been
a stake president, maybe
people who haven't been stake president should be
considered as mission president. Again, it's not my

(28:21):
it's not my role, but I'm just I'm
just thinking, like, sometimes we get in this
mode of thinking, well, they definitely need that
experience that we can only call people who
have observed
that role. And, unfortunately, it perpetuates,
bad traditions, bad leadership principles at the same
time that it may perpetuate positive ones. I
hope I hope that makes sense. I'm kinda
treading lightly because I know it's a sensitive

(28:43):
matter. So that can be good or bad.
And another thing to consider is in leadership
roles, like, let's make sure people are observing
what's going on. Right? Sometimes easier said than
done. But if you're a bishop, hopefully, your
counselors are having opportunity to observe a lot
of things that you're doing, not just the
things that involve them. Right? And that way,
that'll prepare them more. And so the more

(29:04):
observing we can give to people, the better.
And the more people can get in the
room for these meetings or whatever I think
is better. So maybe that's that's a a
principle that a best practice you can take
away from this is if you're in some
of these more formal leadership roles, how can
you get others involved to just even observe
what you're doing and why you're making decisions
and maybe take an extra minute or two

(29:24):
as you make decisions? Let me tell you
why I made that decision. Right? It's not
always because the spirit told me to. It's
sometimes, you know, I'm connecting some logic points
here, and that's why I'm making the the
point there.
Alright.
Principles verse prescriptions. He says in the unwritten
order of things, a principle is an enduring
truth, a law, a rule you can adopt

(29:44):
to help you make decisions.
Generally, principles are not spelled out in detail.
That leaves you free to adapt and to
find your way with an enduring truth, a
principle
as an anchor. The unwritten order thing is
is like, he's presenting a principle
that that doesn't you know, there's ways to
apply that principle differently. And I think sometimes

(30:05):
maybe he's he's blending the what a principle
is and what's an application.
He talks a lot about application in this
talk when I think he's trying to anchor
in the principle, but it's some more com
complicated than that. So, again, this,
commentary isn't necessarily to
bash on the unwritten order of things or
anybody's unwritten order of things. I think every
leader should have an unwritten order of things.

(30:26):
Or in other words, every leader should have
best practices
or every leader should feel
in their it's in their right
to establish some order of things. So for
example,
you may have I hear it all the
time. A state president calls a high counselor.
Well, that high counselor has a beard. So
the high counselor comes in, and depending on
how bold he wants to be, he says,

(30:47):
I don't wanna shave my beard. And the
state president says, well, I think you should.
And then the guy responds, well, it's not
in the handbook, is it? No. It's not
in the handbook. Right? I still feel like
the stake president has the right to ask.
We're going to do things in a certain
order here. Right? I would like you to
shave your beard. Now if you say they
can discuss that, maybe they the stake present
makes an exception. I remember as a young

(31:09):
bishop, I felt it was important as a
unified body of the bishopric that we all
come to church in suits or as we
were out and about in our office or
in our responsibility
that we are doing so in in suits.
Right? Now I think I'd be a little
bit different today, you know, as far as
making weekly visits or whatever.
But especially on Sunday, when we're at church
from doing the things, we need to be

(31:30):
in a suit. Right? And if there's some
if there's other concerns there that we know
we can have that discussion. So I remember
with one counselor kinda show up in all
sorts of different things, and I had a
brief moment with him and said, hey. Would
you mind? I'd like to set a standard
here that in our bishop we wear suits,
you know, especially on Sunday. Right? He agreed
and wore suits the entire time. Now it's
not in the handbook. However, as a keyholder,

(31:51):
as a person presiding, I had the right
to establish an order of things. Right? And
so I would hope every leader feels
a right and a direction to set an
order of things how you see fit. However,
don't blame it on the unwritten order of
things of Elder Packer does it. Right? That
could be sometimes leaders go there like, well,
you know, that's just how things are done
and you can't argue with me because it's
in the unwritten order of things. Like, sure.

(32:12):
You can have a discussion and maybe that
person is a good fit or maybe you
can find, you know, common ground or, find
a place to land where, you know, compromise
that you can you can both live with.
Right? And I would just make sure these
unwritten order things or these breast best practices
aren't diminishing people. Alright? It's good to set
an order of things and find your way
to establish dignity, but hopefully it doesn't grind

(32:34):
on people in a way like, I feel
so restricted or
can't be myself or I've just always had
a beard. I've had a beard for forty
years, and now I'm in this random calling
and the state person wants me to shave
the beard. You know? Like, hopefully, it's not
diminishing people because then that's just not a
good good place to be. A good reference
for this is I did an interview with
Anthony Sweat where he talked about doctrinal models.

(32:56):
And, also,
Michael Goodman has what I think it's on
why religion about doctrinal
oh, no. No. I did it on leading
saints. That's right. He did one on why
religion well, but we can link to that.
Also, we talked about this as far as
what makes doctrine doctrine. Right? So what turns
the unwritten order things into doctrine or what
turns something said in the handbook into doctrine?
And so that might be a good path

(33:18):
if you're kinda trying to figure this all
out. Alright. As we conclude, I just wanna
mention, like, every leader's got these unwritten order
of things. They've got these best practices.
A few that I've seen that aren't necessarily
connected to a specific leader, maybe if you
do know who who first started these, let
me know. When is that the presiding authority
speaks last? Nobody can stand up and talk
after him. I think that's just been general

(33:39):
tradition and general conference spilled over to the
local church. You know, in the past, men
have prayed last.
I think, you know, the or it's always
been said that the a priesthood holder has
to close out a meeting. Right? Or if
a couple speaks or,
a man always has to be the last
speaker in sacrament. I think we're past that
pretty well, but you see these crop up
all the time. Right? And sometimes it's good

(34:00):
in the best practices kind of go against
these for the sake of making sure they
don't perpetuate when there's not a good reason.
Right? I think we always say, like, before
you tear down a fence, figure out why
it was put up. Well, if you can't
figure out why the defense was put up,
maybe you should consider taking
it to them. Right? What about president Nelson?
Does he have unwritten order of things? Well,
yeah, he does, and they've actually been written
down. For example, there wasn't an emphasis on

(34:21):
taking the sacramental with your right hand in
the handbook until president Nelson became the prophet.
So that might be something that he feels
strongly about or his administration or whatever is
felt strongly about to put it in the
handbook. And it might go away, maybe in
another prophet or two. Right? The use of
the word Mormon or the use of the
full name of the Church of Jesus Christ
Latter day Saints. Right? That was a unwritten

(34:41):
order of things that president Nelson felt strongly
about to put in the handbook. Now I
would be surprised if maybe future prophets kinda
go more lax on that. Right? Or they'll
see another emphasis or another way to that.
President Hinckley was more lax on that. He
was intentional about being more lax on that.
President Nelson's also
talked about when you give a baby blessing
to speak to
that you're giving the blessing to the child,

(35:02):
not praying to God. Right? That wasn't in
the handbook before, and now it is. Right?
So he's clarified some of these things, and
that could change. I know president Hinckley, I
think it was on my mission when he
gave the talk about sort of get doing
away with mission farewells and homecomings.
And that did, to some degree, end up
in the it's kinda vague, but it is
in the handbook now. Alright. So the conclusion.

(35:22):
What can we take away from this? I
would just say the more autonomy a local
leader has, the more effective
the church is.
And I think that's good advice. Obviously, I
don't know how many general authorities listen to
this, but something to consider, but for maybe
stake leaders.
Right? The more restriction or the more unwritten
order of things or best practices you kinda
lay on the local leaders,

(35:42):
it actually can make them feel more restrictive
and diminish them as leaders. Give them autonomy.
You know, obviously, reference the handbook, but say,
you know, try some things out. What's your
style of leadership? Right? So the more autonomy
local leaders have, the more effective the church
is. And so communicate your unwritten order things.
Don't just make the assumption or think that
people are gonna just observe them and start

(36:02):
doing them. Right? If you feel strongly about
how to order things in your jurisdiction, then
articulate it, communicate it. Right? It does set
a tone for the culture. I love that
the scripture in first Corinthians that let all
things be done decently
and in order. That sound advice. Right? But,
again, it's just about communicating these things. And
I think if you do it in the
spirit of, listen, I'm not trying to be

(36:23):
like a tyrannical leader or tell you how
to do your things, but I feel like
this will bring strength to our culture. It'll
establish a tone when we show up to
church. It'll establish a tone when we come
to meetings. It'll establish a a tone in
everything we do, which will then perpetuate
more people coming to Jesus Christ being drawn
to us. Right? Now and, hopefully, as a
leader, you can put some of these things
up open for debate. Try and convince me

(36:45):
that this is a bad way to do
it. What problems do you see? Right? And
you may get to a point of saying,
I see your point. However, this is just
the way we're gonna do it. Right? And
so that's the power of keys, but hopefully
you're using them rather than just saying, well,
it doesn't say in the handbook and, you
know, or it's in their unwritten order of
things. Right? Sort of vague or it's you
kind of feel it like you're some leaders

(37:06):
frame it as if they're a victim to
the system. Right? That, well, my hands are
tied here because of the unwritten order of
things. Like, what are you talking about? Right?
Of course, some general guidance is needed, and
that's why we have the handbooks.
We always that's a a big part of
what we do at Leading Saints. We always
encourage the handbook that people should follow it
and, and consider it. I talked about the
visiting authority, the

(37:26):
tyranny of general authority
that sometimes the general authority comes and becomes,
like, solidified in law because he said something.
And these crop up in all all levels
of the church. I saw a clip online.
I'm not gonna share it because I don't
wanna promote the people that are putting it
out there, but it was a clip where
an apostle was in it seemed like a
there was an interpreter for so it was
a non English speaking country,

(37:48):
and I guess it was maybe a humid
client, a hot climate. And this apostle
takes off his jacket, and he kinda says,
you know, I'm gonna it's kinda hot in
here. I'm gonna take off my jacket. And
then the 70 that's in the room,
it says into the mic,
we always take our jackets off when the
presiding authority does. Like, what?
Right? I remember in the eighties, that was
sort of the thing that you couldn't take

(38:09):
your jacket off unless the presiding authority could.
There's even a clip during, I think, priesthood
meeting. President Benson is the president of the
church, and it's hot in the tabernacle.
And he takes off his jacket, invites everybody
to take off their suit jacket as well.
Can you not take off your jacket unless
the presiding authority well, I'm probably gonna take
off my jacket if I'm hot. Right? It's
just these silly things. Like, what do we

(38:30):
why was that fence put up? What are
we doing? Right? So it was worth worth
considering.
Again, these are all best practices. We encourage
you that to seek out best practices even
through Leading Saints, disagree with them,
champion others that you like,
get jump into the discussion, tell us how
you are you approach your leadership
in order and and so forth, but we'd

(38:50):
love to hear that. Overall,
join with me as I invite you. Let's
be done with this term of the unwritten
order of things. Try not to throw it
around. Try not to use it, but to
me to say, these are some leadership best
practices. This is what I believe. Maybe disagree
with these, but these are my leadership best
practices, and so I might need to do
them. Or this is the way that we're
gonna order things in in our stake or
in our ward or what in our relief
society, whatever organization you preside over. So let's

(39:14):
be done with the unwritten order of things
and just talk talk about leadership best practices,
things in the handbook. Right? Alright. That includes
this commentary on the unwritten order of things.
Now we have this link that you can
send to people. If you ever hear this
term unwritten order of things, you can say,
hey. Wait a minute. I have a podcast
episode
that you need to listen to because that
term is what's this guy talking about? I

(39:34):
need to go listen to this talk. Well,
like I said, it's not on the BYU
website. However,
I did read the talk and record it,
and so we're gonna put that probably in
another episode that'll come out right after this.
So you can listen to that if you
want to listen to the full me reading
the full transcript of the talk, and that
will give you more perspective to share. And

(39:55):
maybe I'm wrong. Maybe we need to champion
this term of unwritten order things and get
it out there, but let me know. Go
listen to it and check it out. But
hopefully, I wish you the best in in
leadership that you can, create order, create dignity
and respect in in this beautiful restored church
that we function in. Just don't use it
as manipulation
or to get your way to to blame

(40:16):
it on the unwritten order of things. Let's
set our new standard,
new best practices, and, bring people to Christ
in the church through our leadership and the
culture that we
develop.
That concludes this episode of the leading saints
podcast. Hey, listen. Would you do me a

(40:37):
favor? You know, everybody's got that friend who
listens to a ton of podcasts,
and maybe they aren't aware of Leading Saints.
So would you mind taking the link of
this episode or another episode of Leading Saints
and just texting it to that friend? You
know who I'm talking about. The friend who
always listens to podcasts and is always telling
you about different podcasts. Well, it's your turn
to tell that friend about Leading Saints.

(40:58):
So share it. We'd also love to hear
from you. If you have any perspective or
thought on this episode, you can go to
leadingsaints.org
and actually leave a comment on the, episode
page, or reach out to us at leading
saints dot org slash contact.
And remember, to get on the email newsletter
list, simply go to leadingsaints.org/fourteen.

(41:27):
It came as a result of the position
of leadership which was imposed upon us
by the God of heaven who brought
forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus
Christ.
When the declaration
was made concerning the only
true and living Church upon the face of
the earth,

(41:48):
We were immediately put in a position of
loneliness,
the loneliness of leadership
from which we cannot shrink nor run away,
and to which we must face up with
boldness and courage
and ability.