Putting Jesus at the Center of Your Ward | An Interview with David Butler

This is a rebroadcast. The episode originally ran in July 2020. David Butler is a religious educator at Utah Valley University. He also cohosts the popular YouTube scripture study channel Don't Miss This and is the author of many religious books, including Almighty: How the Most Powerful Being in the Universe Is Also Your Loving Father, Redeemer: Who He Is and Who He Will Always Be, and Spirit: The Gift that Connects You to Heaven. David has previously served as a bishop. He and his wife Jenny are the parents of six children. Links Don't Miss This Instagram: @mrdavebutler Instagram: @dontmissthisstudy Books by David Butler Y Religion podcast Seekers Wanted | An Interview with Anthony Sweat Church Doctrine, Policy, & Leadership | An Interview with Prof. Anthony Sweat Share your thoughts in the Leading Saints community Read the transcript of this podcast Get 14-day access to the Core Leader Library Highlights Dave shares his journey into teaching, which began unexpectedly during his college years when he took a class on teaching the gospel. Despite initially vowing never to become a teacher, he found himself drawn to the profession, particularly in the context of teaching youth and sharing the gospel. Dave reflects on his experiences as a bishop, discussing how he approached leadership with a focus on people rather than programs. He emphasizes the importance of creating a meaningful sacrament meeting experience that fosters a deeper connection with God, rather than adhering strictly to traditional formats. Throughout the episode, Dave challenges the conventional norms of church leadership and encourages listeners to question established practices. He advocates for a people-centered approach, urging leaders to consider the needs of their congregations and to innovate rather than simply follow the unwritten rules. The discussion also touches on the significance of the Come Follow Me program, with Dave suggesting that it should be viewed as a resource rather than a rigid program. He encourages families to focus on their unique needs and to create their own meaningful experiences in scripture study, ultimately aiming to foster a deeper love for God and each other. 04:04 - Dave's Journey into Teaching 06:12 - Unexpected Path to Teaching 10:03 - Balancing Teaching and Leadership 12:26 - Embracing Individuality in Leadership 13:04 - Questioning the Status Quo 20:20 - Focusing on People Over Programs 24:02 - Creating a Meaningful Sacrament Meeting 28:07 - Innovative Approaches to Sacrament Meeting 32:50 - Collaborating with Stake Leadership 36:17 - The Importance of Individual Worship 40:50 - Grace in the Come Follow Me Program 42:43 - Viewing Come Follow Me as a Resource 45:00 - Interview with Anthony Sweat The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints' mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

Episode Transcript

(00:05):
How's your teaching calling going? Have you ever
asked a question during the second hour and
suddenly everyone is looking at the carpet in
silence?
There are proven methods to stimulate class discussion
that work like a charm.
David Farnsworth does a masterful job presenting on
this very subject in the Teaching Saints virtual
library.
What questions get people talking? How can you

(00:26):
effectively listen to the answer they're saying without
being distracted of where you wanna take the
class next? These are crucial principles to consider,
especially in this time of come follow me
Sunday school. You can watch David Farnsworth's
presentation by visiting leadingsaints.org/fourteen.
There, you can gain free access for fourteen
days to the Teaching Saints virtual library where

(00:49):
you'll find hours and hours of content to
help you be a better prepared Sunday teacher.
Before we jump into the content of this
episode, I kinda feel it's important that I
introduce myself. Now many of you have been
around a long time. You're well familiar with
my voice and the the with Leading Saints
as an organization.

(01:10):
But if you're not, well, my name is
Kurt Frankem, and I am the executive director
of Leading Saints and the podcast host. Now
Leading Saints is a nonprofit organization
dedicated helping Latter day Saints be better prepared
to lead. And we do that through, well,
content creation like this podcast and many other
resources at leadingsaints.org.
And, we don't act like we have all

(01:31):
the answers or,
know exactly what a leader should do or
not do, but we like to explore
the concepts of leadership, the science of leadership,
what people are researching about leadership, and see
how we can apply them to a Latter
day Saint world. So here we go.
The following episode is a throwback episode, one
that was published previously and was extremely popular.

(01:52):
To see the details of when this was
originally published, see the show notes. Enjoy this
throwback episode.
Folks, we did it. I had the opportunity
to track down Dave Butler from Don't Miss
This, the YouTube channel that many of you
are familiar with. It's, one of these, come

(02:13):
follow me
YouTube channels where every week they put out
a video
discussing some of the concepts in that week's
come follow me lesson. David Butler has been
in the CES program,
teaching. He currently teaches at Utah Valley University
Institute of Religion
and is such a phenomenal teacher. And, obviously,
I don't need to say that to those
who have seen David Butler in action. And

(02:36):
he is,
and so real and fun and,
which doesn't won't surprise you in this episode
where we just talk real and
and it's a fun discussion. And he's funny
and it's but but he's so sincere and,
and,
he's had an opportunity to serve as a
bishop. And so this is an interview, a
a conversation with Dave Butler that you probably
won't find anywhere else,

(02:56):
because we delve into his journey as being
a bishop and how he approached the the
different concerns with the word council and sacrament
meeting and and how he developed vision and
purpose and and some of his tips are
so helpful. You're gonna love it. And then
we just jump into his teaching style where
he always teaches in the context of grace
and how you do that,

(03:17):
books he's written, Come Follow Me,
how we should see Come Follow Me, and
and what do we do if we start
to beat ourselves up about, failing at Come
Follow Me. And so why why we should
call it a resource and not a program,
like, so many pearls of wisdom here. You're
gonna love it. So here's my interview
with Dave Butler.

(03:43):
Here I am on the campus of UVU.
I guess we're at we're in the Institute
Building, the Utah Valley University Institute Building with
Dave Butler. How are you, Dave? Very good.
Thank you. Awesome. No. I went here, when
it was UVSC.
Oh, really? Yeah. I have a two year
degree. So I've walked these halls and attended
classes here, and and it's it's kinda cool
to be back. You are at home. That's
right. Welcome home. Thank you. Thank you. So

(04:04):
how long have you been here?
This three years, I think.
Yeah. Someone just asked me yesterday, and so
I was trying to figure it out. And
then I got bored trying to figure it
out. So but about three years.
Yeah. And so teaching here. What's your journey
into
CES? I mean, did you were you the
return missionaries? Like, there's nothing else I must
do in this world Oh. But teach the

(04:25):
gospel. Maybe opposite. I mean, I I like,
wait. Not opposite because I really came home,
and I like to teach you the gospel.
Yeah. Sure.
I I taught at the MTC and
loved teaching at the MTC. Mhmm. Like, it
was kind of my first teaching experience ever,
was teaching the MTC. And I I would
like, if they called me tomorrow
and said, do you wanna come back and

(04:46):
teach? For $7.50 an hour. I would just
I would not even pray about it. I
would do it. I would just go because
I loved it so much. That's awesome.
It honestly, like, it was golden to me.
This is pretty golden here too, in fact.
Like,
at the UVU Sort of an extension of
the MTC in some ways. It feels like
it. It just is it's it's super great.

(05:07):
So, anyways, I actually had
I have, like, a distinct memory from high
school sitting in economics class, and maybe it's
because it was economics, and just sitting there
and, like, drifting off, which was a normal
thing for me, and thinking to myself,
why would anybody be a teacher?
What a dumb idea.
You know, I legit, like I was like,

(05:28):
I, and I made a vow to myself,
no matter what,
I will never, ever
be a teacher, you know, it's kind of
less words, right? I legit, it was like,
I'm not ever, ever going to do it.
And then I was in college and had
no idea what I wanted to do with
my life. Still don't, for the record. Like,
I still am, like,

(05:50):
kinda consider this, like, a temporary thing. This
is fun. So you'll do this a while
now. Yeah. This is now, like, an eleven
year or whatever, twelve year temporary thing.
You know, which isn't that long, you know?
But I,
I I was in college and met up
with a buddy of mine. We went out
to lunch, and we were gonna start a
dental lab together. Oh. Just because Not you

(06:11):
didn't wanna become a dentist. No. No. My
dad's a dentist, so for some reason, I
felt like I was an expert in that
field. And it felt like, oh, we could
make a dental lab, and it was gonna
be good money and,
like, a great part time job maybe turned
into something afterwards. Or and so we were
meeting to kinda talk about details, and he
he had I said, what are what what
classes are you taking? This semester is about
to start at BYU.

(06:32):
And I and he'd said, I'm gonna take
this one called Teaching the Gospel. And I
was like, oh, well, I needed a religion
credit. And I was like, that would be
cool. Like, I should take it with you
because that'd be fun, number one, to take
a class together. That's how all my class
decisions went, by the way. Like, they had
nothing to do
with,
like, my what, like, what I needed or

(06:53):
whatever. It was purely like, oh, I'll take
it with a friend.
And
I didn't know that it was,
like, what's called preservice, like, this class to
kind of help
find people who are interested in teaching Seminary
and Institute.
And it's not only that. It's also, like,
legit for people who, like, want to learn
how to be a better teacher. Yeah. And

(07:14):
so I was like, well, I feel like
I'm gonna teach my whole life, you know,
at home, in church,
wherever. So I might as well be great.
And I went in and they started talking
about seminaries, and and I was like, what
in the world is going on? I didn't
even know that seminary was, like,
a thing. Because you're from Texas. Yeah. Yeah.
Early morning seminary was here. Yeah. And so

(07:36):
I didn't know that, like and then and
then, like, we had an assignment to go
watch a seminary class.
And I went to one, and I was
like,
then for the first time, I put two
and two together, why there were all these
mini churches in Utah.
Like, I always saw Right by high school.
Right. And I never put it together they
were by high schools. I have zero sense

(07:56):
of direction. You should know. So, like, I
will drive on a road. I have driven
on 98 times, and it is a new
experience for me, which makes my life really
fun. Probably a good thing in some ways.
Yeah. It's true. I I actually live a
really fun life because I will drive on
this road and be like, what a cool
road. And Jenny's like, this is how we
come home every week. And I'm like, oh,
well, it looks different today. Yeah. But, so
I put it all together, and I went

(08:18):
in, and I was like, wait. This is
like a church. It's like a little church.
And I was so fascinated and still no
interest
really in Uh-huh. In teaching.
Although I should say this, I also put
together when I was in that class
that there was this poster on campus at
BYU that said something about, do you have
do you wanna teach youth?

(08:38):
And every time I saw that poster, like,
I was drawn to it. Uh-huh. Like,
legit, like, more than just, like, oh, what
a I mean, it was a dumpy looking
poster, like bad marketing. You know, like, it
just wasn't cool or anything, but I, like,
had, like, a, like, a spiritual draw to
it.
And so,
anyways So little by little, you were Yeah.

(08:59):
Yeah. Into this. Right? And it's so funny
that I looked back years later. It's like,
I I really think I was drawn to
that. You know?
Whether
I don't know. Whether it was heaven drawing
me to it or just
a personal interest or I don't I don't
know. But I there was some sort of
draw to it. And, anyways, took the class,
and then I moved to Hawaii

(09:19):
Naturally. To go to school. Right? And so
I just kinda left that behind. And Uh-huh.
And when we moved back, we moved back
mostly because
Jenny was about to have a baby and
we thought,
what are we doing? Like, can we are
we gonna live here forever or what what
anyways. And part of that decision
was I'm still sort of intrigued by
what could be, you know, in that world.

(09:41):
And yeah. So so anyways, there you go.
I so I kind of fell into it.
So there wasn't, like, a moment where you
thought, alright, now I I promised myself I'll
be a teacher. No. Never. Just little by
little, suddenly, this is the direction Yeah. And
I still I still, like,
at
least once a year, I have a running,
like,
voice in the back of my head that's
always just a battle, I guess. It's just

(10:03):
kind of like, I don't I don't think
I wanna do this forever.
I'm too, like, bored of things too fast,
you know, where I'm just like, what what
else should I do? Where else should I
go? And I have too much of, like,
an entrepreneurial spirit where I'm like, I wanna
build something, and I wanna, like, grow it.
You know? And but then I also love,
like, I love being in the classroom, and

(10:26):
I love
one on ones with people, and I love,
like, the connections and relationships I've made in
in this world. You know?
I don't think I was, like, put together
to work for anybody. You know? Mhmm. So
that's probably why, like, I don't love, like,
I don't love administrative things at all. I
don't love meetings. I love them

(10:48):
zero. I I and so all of that
part of this world can, like,
grind on me. But then I'll get back
into the classroom
and have that experience, and then I think
It's all worth it. And I think, oh,
I love this. Yeah.
So somehow if I can find a way
to do that without all the meetings and
the schedules and the,
you know, then I then Yeah. It would

(11:09):
be great. But yeah. I did. So I
fell into it. Don't know how long I'll
do it, but for sure, I know I
wanna teach people about Jesus
my whole life, and I love way. Whether
it's a formal classroom or not. Right. And
I and I love people. I love people's
stories. I love people.
They're my passion. So That's awesome. So this

(11:30):
place
teaching
in this kind of place is like I
mean, I've had a chance to leave several
times, and nothing's been
better. I mean, more money, better schedule, sure,
all those. But I'm like,
if if if man, I just love people
and Jesus too much that this place fits
me in that regard. Yeah.

(11:51):
Sometimes I don't feel like I fit in
in this world.
You know? The Seminary Institute world, I've always
felt like a square peg here
that,
I just think a little differently, and I
can tell.
And,
it's a little bit too formal for my
personality. Uh-huh. It's all been fine,

(12:12):
mostly because
I love everybody I worked with and all
the students
that, you know
Yeah. I mean, some of the people I've
taught are still, like, they're, like, my dear
friends. They'll be lifelong friends. Right. And and
so it's just been fantastic. Let's talk about
that more because I'm I'm curious because I
know there are people certain people that may
be called to a leadership position, and I
think, oof, like,

(12:33):
I I get that I was called and
I'm happy to serve, but I just don't
fit this mold. Like,
maybe articulate that further. What do you mean
by that? I mean, is it you don't
you don't love the white shirt and tie
daily or I mean Of course not. That's
the easiest And he isn't as a gym
closer enough for the record.
Because I meant to get here early to
work out before the podcast and then

(12:55):
schedule the whole workout.
But now you how would you articulate that
more that people could maybe relate to? I
mean, what without getting yourself in trouble? No.
No. No. I don't I don't no. I
don't I don't think I don't think it's
a secret or and I don't think there's
anything wrong with it either. I mean, look.
A business gets to decide what their brand
is gonna be, you know, and it's like,
okay. This is our business, and someone's decided

(13:16):
what the brand is gonna be. And, like
and if you don't wanna
be that brand, then that's the business's decision.
Right? So it's not like I'm in no
position to, like, start a revolution or, like,
or anything like that. I will I do
like to push boundaries a little bit and
say, like, wait. Why are we doing this?
Uh-huh. And why are and not to be
contrary Yeah. Legitimately

(13:36):
because, like, you know, I was texting with
Jenny the other day and she just said,
do you think you were just born
that way to to, like, that you question
everything and that you wonder, like and she
says, I just have always just, like, done
what people told me to do. Yeah. And
and that's her personality. And I just and
I was like, oh, well,

(13:57):
probably I mean, because I don't, like, wake
up in the morning and think, what can
I question? You know? What can I, like,
push against?
I legitimately,
like am like,
wait. Why are we doing this? Yeah. When
I was serving as as bishop don't let
me get away from whatever your question was.
No. This is right. Remind me what it
is in a second. When I was serving
as bishop, like, there were several times where

(14:18):
I was like like, I would look at
sacrament meeting and I would think,
why how come how come we do the
sacrament first?
And why are why does a man always
speak last?
Mhmm. And why do we, like, have
song talks? You know? And I was like,
is that a
rule? Can we change that? Like, it just

(14:39):
doesn't seem you know? And so, like and
and why do we have you know? And
and, you know, the young women would come,
like, we need a camp director. And I
was like, why do you need a camp
director?
Does camp have to be five days? Is
that a rule? Like or, you know, like,
the scouts. Like, Jenny served in Cub Scouts
and nursery at the same time because nobody
else would take the calling.
And you were the bishop? Yeah. Because she

(15:00):
was like, I'll just do it. She was
like, I'll just do it. I mean, she
loved nursery by the way, but she hated
Cub Scouts. And I was like, I don't
think you have to meet every week. If
it's burnout for you,
then give homework to the kids for, like,
the second week of the month. And then
the fourth one can be the
pack whatever. And then I was like, you
don't have to do it how everybody's always

(15:21):
done it. Yeah. Like, find the best way.
Sometimes I dream of, like
and maybe it can happen post corona.
I dream of, like Does that world exist,
really? Please tell me it exists. Please tell
me I will die.
I,
I'm like, what if a ward
scrapped
everything,
you know, all programs,

(15:43):
And you walked in and looked at people
first and said, what do the people
actually need?
And then start bringing in
programs that match the needs
instead of
getting called as a young women's president and
saying, what's a young women's president supposed to
do? Give me my, like, what are all

(16:04):
the things? Oh, well, you're supposed to do
camp once a year, and you're supposed to
you're supposed to and it actually might look
identical.
Right. You know, it might end up looking.
Because if I, like, if I did that
and walked in and said, okay. What do
our people need?
Well, what we would want something for,
to study the scriptures together as a community.

(16:25):
And I think and then we would invent
Sunday school. And we're like, okay. And then
we we would probably need something for the
kids.
Right. And then we would invent prime you
know, which is what happened initially. Yeah. Right?
Yeah. That's where all these came from. Yeah.
It didn't come from the prophet. It came
from sort of grassroots. Yeah. The need. What
was the need? Yeah. And it was just
like and then and then someone asked the
question. But now, like, it's all set up,
and it's kind of like instead, we're so

(16:46):
program centered instead of people centered. Uh-huh. And
I don't think we have to scrap everything,
but I think we ought to scrap mindset
and and start with thinking, like, if I
got called as a young woman's president I
don't know why I keep using that. I
will never be a young woman's president, everybody.
You know? But, you know, I just I
would wanna go in and say,
okay.

(17:07):
Here are the girls. Yeah.
And here are the other leaders, and and
what do what do we
what do they need? Right. What can we
create,
you know, for them? And there's so many
reasons, that these this is perpetuated. But, you
know, you may be called as a young
woman's president and not you, but others. But,
and you sort of feel like, what was
the last person doing? And that must worked.

(17:27):
That must have worked. So let's keep doing
that. Right? Right. And so we just sort
of do do and or I don't wanna
change it and hurt her feelings or his
feelings because obviously you had something going there.
But I remember when I got called in
the stake presidency, we, you know, were starting
the the, ward conferences.
And we had seen you know, I'd been
a bishop before that. We'd seen how the
stake did word conferences. And we just took

(17:48):
a moment as the stake presidency said, let's
imagine we know nothing about word conferences. And
somebody hands us a handbook and says, you
know, there's a few paragraphs here. Your, like
Yeah. Whatever your purpose is. And so me
and the other counselor, we went in a
room for a couple hours. We just said,
we know nothing. And what does it say?
And we we just wrote down what it
said. And then we said, now let's create
something remarkable following these guidelines. And we went

(18:09):
in a completely different direction as the old
state presidency, and it was remarkable. Right? But
I think it's especially from a leadership standpoint.
It's just that exercise of saying, okay. Let's
imagine you've never heard of girls camp before.
Yeah. What do we do? What does the
handbook say? And then what do the girls
really need? Yeah. You know, do we have
to go to a a campground or all
these things? Right? Yeah. And I really think

(18:29):
the power comes in, like, beginning with people
and purposes.
And I think that's where the exercise is.
It's not like a
exercise of, like, let's be different for the
sake of being different because Yeah. My type
of personality
could easily fall into that, where it's like
you're just, you know and I and I
could see where somebody and I feel like
I have to check myself all the time.
Like,

(18:50):
Have I now Brent like, have I now,
like, given myself this new identity of the
guy who does things differently? And and I
really don't. I honestly do not think of
myself that way.
And I don't mean to be
contrary. And I don't want people to think
that I am, but I learned somewhere along
the road that there isn't a mold.
You know? And once

(19:10):
I feel like I gave that up. Mhmm.
Any, like, last thought of, like, this is
there are ways that things should be done
and and stuff. I I just
I mean, there's things I feel like are
just really loose that we don't necessarily hold
loosely.
And there are things that I think are
really important,
and we should hold those. Like, those should

(19:31):
be the shoulds. And and figuring out what
that is, I think, is important for a
person. So going back to your time as
as bishop, like, was it just any way
any other ways this this personality trait or
this perspective was manifest other than maybe just
asking questions and more often? Or how else
did did this manifest itself as in your
role as bishop? Well and what do you

(19:51):
mean? What what are you asking? As far
as, like,
as pushing,
like,
as pushing against sort of that culture that
sometimes is established that we the, you know,
we it's often termed the unwritten order of
things, which like, the men speaking or praying
at the end of the meeting, like, that's
the unwritten order of things. When in reality,
it's like I didn't even understand that phrase,
the guy.
Right. Yeah. But it's it's one thing that

(20:12):
gets thrown around. So is there anything else
you did to sort of just keep stay
fresh and making sure that you're really focusing
on people rather than programs?
Well,
I think,
one of the things that I,
looked my ward council, like, serving with my
ward council is, at that time as bishop,

(20:32):
is
one of the sweetest experiences of my whole
life. Mhmm.
I didn't wanna be bishop. I didn't wanna
be in charge. That's not my personality to
be the in charge person. Uh-huh. You know?
Like, I just I wanna be the idea
generator and, like, the,
the teacher everyone's told me. Yeah. Yeah. You
know what I mean? And I and I
just I didn't the thing I hated most

(20:53):
about being bishop was just, like, everybody wanted
to ask me about all the things. You
know? Like, how many cups should we buy?
And I was like, I don't I don't
wanna be in charge of everything. And then
I I wanna show up to the Christmas
party and like it and not be in
charge of it. You know what I mean?
Yeah. I can so all the things that
I was in charge of I remember first
getting called. I'm gonna get to your question.

(21:13):
I promise. Yeah. You're good. And, like, reading
through the handbook.
And I was like, I'm in charge of
everything.
And then my daughter passed by. She's like,
well, you are the bishop. I was like,
well, this shouldn't I shouldn't be in charge
of all anyways, I didn't like being in
charge of everything. But serving with that ward
council, one of the things that I
looked for when I called somebody to the

(21:34):
ward council I mean, before I
because, you know, when when extending callings, you
know, I always started with just, like, I'm
just looking and asking and thinking and stuff
like that, and then I would be prayerful
about it. But,
one of the questions I would ask is,
does this person have,
a missionary heart?

(21:54):
Meaning, are they a people centered person?
You know? Because I was like, that's that's
who I want
in, you know, serving together
on this. I called ourselves the worship team.
The worship team? Yeah. I was like, you
guys.
And one of the things that we did
is I just said, listen.
One of the things that I loved with

(22:15):
our word council is we we
got together as a word council right as,
we were
being trained on sacrament meeting in the Sabbath
day. Do you remember that? Like, however It
was a big push. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And
I was, like,
struck.
I remember president Nelson,

(22:37):
before he was president Nelson, like, just pleading,
let's give sacrament meeting back to the savior.
And looking at it, when they said
the question that the quorum of the twelve
and first presidency went to the Lord with
was, how do we increase
faith in God
and the savior? And I was like, that's
where we have to start because that is

(22:58):
what's going on here. It's not,
let's do Sabbath day stuff, and let's do
something with sacrament meeting. It was, what was
the actual question?
Mhmm. Question was, how do we increase faith
in God the father in the Son?
So we took that, and and then we
just said,
let's let's make a sacrament meeting a meeting

(23:19):
where
people leave
with a more
thrilling feel for God the father and the
son and, like, with greater faith in them
and trusting them and just
loving them and feeling loved more. Like, that's
our, like, that's our purpose and our
intention. Yeah. And I called them the worship

(23:41):
team because
I was like, listen. In every other church,
They got a worship team. Right? Yeah. Yeah.
And you have to create an experience for
people that that they're gonna come back to.
Yeah. It's people centered. It's like, let's create
something for the people. Or they can go
down the street and find a better church
that does that. Exactly. Yeah. Where we're sort
of like, no. Actually, you live on the

(24:01):
street, so you go to this church. Yeah.
It's like, you have to come to this
church. And I was like, and sometimes you're
like, if you don't come to sacrament meeting,
then you don't get a temple recommend.
And you're supposed to come to sacrament meeting.
So
I guess suck it up. If it's if
it's dumb or bad, then you have to
deal with it. And it's like, what if
we shifted our thinking? And, like, let's actually
create

(24:22):
a meaningful experience
like our jobs depend on it. Let's pretend
like our jobs depend on it here. And
I'm not saying that that's the approach that
other faiths take. I legitimately,
like,
believe and feel and and have seen that
they take the approach of
we gotta give our people an experience with
God.
So so let's do it. Yeah. I wanna

(24:43):
take just a quick time out and just
illustrate what you're talking about because
or or highlight it. Because oftentimes I talk
about the importance of or other people I
interview talk about the importance of establishing a
strong vision in a ward and people are
like, well, I don't know what that look
like. I mean, we just make sure the
doors are unlocked and sacraments pass and we
go home. Right? But this is a perfect

(25:03):
example what a strong vision looks like that
we're gonna focus on this question and sacrament
is gonna be everything. We're the worship team.
Right? I mean, even the simple tactic of
labeling your ward council as a team of
some type worship or what pick whatever name,
like, that's different. That that brings a different
feel, and and people lean in in those
meetings

(25:23):
when that happens. Yeah. Because, like, we did
the same thing with
home teaching and visiting teaching Uh-huh. Where
we sat together.
We honestly
worked on sacrament meeting the whole time
that I was bishop.
We kept coming back to it. We honestly
kept coming back to it. And I was
like, you guys,

(25:43):
we have got to, like, end every sacrament
meeting and feel like, do people love God
more Yeah. After that meeting? Yeah. You know?
Yeah. And do they feel loved by him
more? And if not, like, what do we
do? Yeah. We're missing it. Let's change it.
And then we worked on so many things
so many things through that.
Yeah. So what did you do? I'm just

(26:05):
curious. So what what did that lead to?
What I did? Or It just it led
one of the things that we did,
that I thought ended up so
personally significant,
was we divided up the ward into groups
of 15 to 20 and
assigned for the rest of the year, I
can't remember what month we started, out the
rest of the year, the second and third

(26:26):
hour of church. Like, we gave them a
date. This is your date that you're coming.
And we gathered around the sacrament table,
and we taught for the second and third
hour of church, that group. So they came
out of whatever classes they were in, and
we made arrangements. So this is during three
three hour church. Right? So they back in
those days. Yeah. Right. And and for two
hours, we talked about,

(26:47):
what we called the story of the lamb.
And we went from Adam and Eve
in Genesis
and asking how do we get back and
the sacrifice of the lamb being introduced all
the way through
the Last Supper, and we told the story
of
Jesus
and how that story is retold every single
week in the sacrament.

(27:08):
That it is this
long
these this is the story being retold.
It's the redemption story
being retold every single week so that we
re like, we root ourselves in it. And
it was, like, we had just beautiful and
our word council divided up, and we taught
together, and and

(27:29):
and we used some of, like, the the
training clips, and and we just, like, we
just said, like,
let's teach everybody
the significance
of the sacrament
and how it can be this instrument of
worship and how it can connect us to
God in a really significant way. So we
began with, like,

(27:49):
this really will be
the highlight of the meeting
and not just, like, kind of, like, do
yeah. Do the sacrament real quick and then
get to the speakers. Yeah. That's why everybody's
here is to hear somebody speak. You know?
It's like, let's real so we really, like,
we it took us, like, eight months to
get through the whole ward. Really? And we
did it with the primary
and primary teachers. And we gave people permission,

(28:13):
like I mean, made arrangements permission that sounded
like we were, like, bizarre or something.
We made arrangements
so that if a family wanted to come
in with their kids
Mhmm. Like, just the family alone in the
chapel.
About the sacrament, like, on a, like, on
a Thursday night to, like, help their kids
realize, like, okay. So that's why
we are, you know, gonna come a little

(28:35):
bit early. That's why we're, you know, just
to, like
Yeah. And it makes an impression on those
young minds. Yeah. And it's like, this is
why we're saying, like, you know anyways, to
teach that. And then, yeah, I that was
just and then and then we took, like,
the actual, like,
program itself. You know? Like and we just
said, okay. So okay. How do we what

(28:55):
do we want people to speak on?
And we started, like we changed,
like, what we spoke on. So we would
do these, like, series almost,
where it was like, okay.
We took the names of Christ,
and we brought people in who were gonna
speak, like, a month ahead of time. And
we're just like,
we want you to pick one of the

(29:15):
names of Christ in the scriptures
and tell us, like, what you learned about
that name in the scriptures, but then specifically
how you've seen
him as the shepherd or the advocate in
your own story. Mhmm. You know? And then
we did the book of John,
and, like, we gave someone just a chapter
of the book of John. We moved to
the whole book of John, and we're just

(29:36):
like, what do you find and learn and
feel about the savior in this chapter? Wow.
Like, and we just so we shifted, like,
what we were speaking on, and and we
gave people a new focus on speaking. Like,
we would really bring them in
and, like, talk to them about It's like
an orientation type of meeting. Like This is
our purpose with the sacrament

(29:56):
meeting. This is what we're going for, and
your contribution
is what's going to make it so holy
because of the time that you'll put in.
And,
like, your experience
is what we wanna hear.
Like, your personal journey in in relationship. Like,
don't give us a book report on a
conference talk.
Like, and we specifically

(30:18):
tried to push back on that to just
be like Yeah. And and it can be
raw, and it can be messy, and that
it will actually is what's gonna make it
spectacular.
And so so we pushed on topics and,
like, in the order of things. Like, we
actually put a musical number
in at the beginning of the meeting. Yeah.

(30:38):
I I call that a general conference style.
Yeah. Like I said, we're gonna do this
general conference style, and there people are just
gonna be sitting there chatting, and then all
of a sudden this choir starts or this
solo begins. It's awesome. Yeah. And then we
started, like, doing a mini talk before the
sacrament
about the sacrament. Uh-huh. Because I always thought
to myself, like,
you come into sacrament meeting,

(30:58):
and and you've got four kids, and you
just got done, like, yelling at them because
they couldn't find their shoes for heaven's sake.
Like, our house is not that big.
And we are just a hot mess in
the pew,
so mad, and then all of a sudden,
it's just like, okay. Well, now There's some
water. Yeah. We'll take the water. Sacrament him.

(31:19):
And it's like, nobody got a chance to
got to get warmed up Yeah. Like, what
was about to happen. So I was like,
let's
give people a chance
to, like, warm up to it. Mhmm. You
know? Let's, like, open whatever the sacrament hymn
is going to be, Let's open it
up and like teach what the lines are
actually teaching. Wow. So that like people are

(31:42):
thinking like, as they like, anyways, those are
all just ideas. But the point was that,
like, we just started with
what is this meeting actually for? Like, what
are we trying to accomplish? Mhmm. You know?
Yeah. And we legitimately
just
felt really strongly
about I want this to be a meeting

(32:02):
where people,
like, learn to love
God more and and feel connected
to the Father and the Son in significant
ways. So
what do we do Yeah. To make that
happen? And then all these just Yeah. And
other ideas that aren't as
good or didn't work. You know? The concession
stands didn't really fly. Didn't work out as

(32:24):
well. You know? It just was a mess.
And, like, we had to buy vacuums and
didn't have the budget.
But,
anyways, so Nice. So with the with the
speaker, method, I mean, with, like, how high
council speakers or state speakers, did you just
sort of roll them into that that routine
and process? Well,
I I actually just went to the state
president, and I just said,

(32:45):
what is the purpose of the high council
speaker? Woah. Woah. Woah. Woah. Woah. You can't
ask that.
I was like, are they coming with,
what your message? Is that what your intention
is? And
and I had two different state presidents,
both good friends of mine, and I just
was like,
this is what we're trying to do in

(33:05):
our in in our ward. This is what
we're trying to do. And
so that's what that's what we did. So,
like, with sometimes, like, they really came with,
like, this is this is the kind of
state president felt impressed that he wants this
message given to the ward, and it was,
like, perfect. So it kind of was just,
like, a pause from the book of John.
Yeah. You know? And and sometimes I'd ask,

(33:26):
do you want the high council speaker to
come? Uh-huh. Because, like because we're good. If
not Yeah. If you don't
No pressure. Insist on them coming, we have
people that we
you know? And if they did, if they
wanted, like, stake representation there or whatever, then
we would give that high council person, like,
our Yeah. Topic. Yeah. And and that this
is another point I need to pause and
underscore because that relationship between the bishop and

(33:48):
the stake presidency like, I remember going from
bishop to the stake presidency, and you sort
of feel like, okay. Now I'm like a
super bishop and I create super programs and
I do super interviews with people. And but
what we
when we get in that mode, you overshadow
the keys of the bishop and their autonomy
and whatnot. And so having some of these
discussions where you go to the stake presidency
and say, okay, why are you doing this?

(34:09):
Like, really sell me on this because I've
got a great program going here or I've
got this idea. So if you wanna do
this, great. But you need to explain to
me why this happened and really sort of
push them on some of those things, you
know, obviously in a friendly, respectful manner. But
Yeah. You're gonna discover further,
effectiveness in some of these these things we
do. Right? Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. I

(34:30):
thought that was great to do that, you
know, and it's just like, oh, okay. I
don't I'm not trying to Yeah. Get out
of line or whatever. That's that's a because
a lot of state presidents organization. A lot
of state presidents can see, like, the high
council week is, like, oh, we're sort of
helping you out. Hey. Here's a speaker. You
know, you don't gotta worry about a speaker
that week. Like, oh, good. Alright. Because I'm
really not sure. Yeah. People are saying no
or whatever. Right? So Yeah. And I did

(34:50):
not think they needed to come for that
reason. Like, I my thought was that you
do not need to come to give me
a break. Right. Our preference would be for
our word to hear from our people. Uh-huh.
You know, that's like my that's that would
be my preference. Mhmm. It's kind of like
what I went in with. Mhmm. But I
also,
like, appreciate and understand
that a stake president's

(35:11):
vision and a stake president's, like,
kind of impressions
as they put their kind of hand on
the pulse of the entire stake in area,
I do not have like, I don't have
that.
And
sometimes it's awesome to get somebody outside of
our neighborhood,
you know, who can come in and give
their, like, thoughts and impressions. And I think

(35:32):
it's good for people to see, like, oh.
You know, because, really, in an to divide
up a ward by neighborhood
means that you have very, very little, like,
diversity.
Right. Because,
like, similar income status, similar, like, draw.
You know, like, all these people, like, wanted
to be close to a freeway, and all
these people, like, could afford this neighborhood, and

(35:54):
all these people liked the parks. Or so
sometimes
within a stake, you could get a little
bit more, and it's it's nice. And Utah's
gonna be harder because Right. In all neighborhoods,
it's a stake. Exactly. Exactly. So,
there's so much benefit to it. I just
wanted to ask.
Again, we ended up doing the same thing,
but it was nice to, like, what's the
purpose of this?

(36:16):
You know? Yeah. And, like, it just gave
it a little bit more
punch and power to, like, begin with, like
in someone's individual worship,
if they take this approach, what am I
supposed to do
as a member of this church? Well, I'm
supposed to pray every day, and I'm supposed
to, and I'm supposed to, and I'm supposed
to, right, and do that. And what if

(36:36):
they did it in their own individual worship?
They scrapped and they said
started with, I wanna make a connection with
God every day.
Mhmm. You know? What could I do?
I bet the list would look the same.
They would say, I wanna open his words,
and I wanna spend time in prayer.
And but because you started with that question

(36:58):
first,
how do I make a connection,
then all of those that list all of
a sudden becomes super
way more meaningful
Mhmm. Than, like, oh, I'm supposed to do
it to, you know, fit the mold
instead of, like, I actually, like I started
at square one, and I said,
okay.
Like, how do I show devotion to God?

(37:19):
Because I want to. I wanna show my
love and devotion to him. He has won
me over.
He loved me, so I wanna love him
back. Like, I want to. So I will
contribute
my I'll give my heart to him, and
I will contribute
my money and my time to him because
I I want to. Like, I I feel
passionate about his kingdom and, you know Yeah.

(37:41):
Different than someone saying, like, oh, we do
this as a church. Right. You know, we
pay tithing and we serve and we, you
know, it's like,
just turn start over. You know? Yeah. And
and sometimes it's difficult for leaders to get
in that mindset because I think there's there
is a large emphasis on the law of
obedience. And you feel like if I'm stepping
out of bounds or out of the box

(38:01):
here, I feel like I'm sort of the
rogue here even though, yeah, nobody can point
to the handbook that I'm supposed to do
this way. But, man, I don't wanna be
I don't want to,
you know, cause a red flag where I'm
stepping out of line because I just wanna
be a good boy, you know, and do
do what's right. You know? Which actually is
I had lunch with a friend of mine
couple months ago,
and,

(38:21):
he was talking about his experience as a
missionary.
And he and I have
super different personalities,
and also the same. So it's kinda fun,
but we see things. And one of them
is, like, obedience was one of the topics
that we talked about. And he just talked
about as a missionary how he was like,
no. I was in my house at 09:00,
not a minute later every single day. And

(38:44):
I do not operate like that, where I'm
just like, that just seems a little bit
arbitrary.
Like,
I of course, I would try, but if
something happened, like,
if if if I stopped somebody and we're
having a conversation, then a person is gonna
dominate the clock more. You know what I
mean? Like, I just think differently in that,
you know, in that way.

(39:05):
But I realized as we were having lunch
for,
like, for the first time, like, it was
significant for me to see, like,
that's how you show love
is in your, like,
your stickler approach,
which sounds I shouldn't use that word. That's
all I used to see. I was like,
you're such a stickler. But I was like,
oh, that you are showing such a high

(39:27):
value and reverence for God in the way
that you are
so strict in in what you're doing. And
I said to him, I was like, that's
actually admirable.
Mhmm. That's how someone's showing love.
If it's their expression of love,
then I think it's beautiful. If it's, oh,
God gets mad at you if you don't,
or I'm scared if I don't. Or an

(39:48):
expression of judgment on others. Like Yeah. Yeah.
Or, like, I'll be in trouble if I
don't do this, or I you know,
this is what you're supposed to do.
Or I if I find some sort of,
like, higher value in myself because I do
it better than other people, I was like,
then I think it's dangerous.
But if you are doing that as an
expression of, like, this is how I show

(40:08):
devotion Yeah. Because that's sincerely when he was
talking. I was like, I used to just
think people like you were a little bit
I don't know the nice way to say,
you know, whatever.
You We we get it. We get it.
Similar. Yeah. I'm just gonna like, I was
like,
and now I'm seeing, like, oh, there's love
Yeah. Underneath that and a lot of it.
Right. And shame on me for,

(40:30):
you know,
thinking I was better than you, and you
were better than me in our approaches to
how we worship. And and I think that's
beautiful about God that he can relate to
us in so many different ways, and we
can relate to him in so many different
ways. And so let us worship how, where,
or what we may, even within our own
faith tradition, I think. Yeah. That's powerful.

(40:52):
So that's maybe a good transition to the,
you know, come follow me. And you you've
got a very popular YouTube channel, don't miss
this, with Emily Bill Freeman that, I think
every Latter day Saint is aware of, I'm
sure, and they subscribe.
But,
and this concept of Come, Follow Me, and
this is something I've really wrestled with personally
and,

(41:13):
as, you know, Come, Follow Me has been
more established where
it went from, you know, obviously, we were
given the inspiration, which is phenomenal, like, a
more focus at home, you know, home focused
church and having these remarkable experiences.
Us as human beings, we sort of mess
things up or we we
we try I don't know how how to
say it. But us as members of the

(41:33):
church, we sometimes
think, well, I I don't know what to
do. So what I'm gonna do is oh,
look. There's Dave Butler on YouTube. Hey, kids.
Sit down. Play. Okay. I'm good. Right. And
I don't know. And I don't, I know
this is like some indictment of what you're
doing, man. I don't think you intended it
to be like, okay, instead of going to
Sunday school, watch us. You, you intended it

(41:53):
more of a supplemental thing, but right now
there's more of these channels popping up and
everybody has their their guy or gal or
whatever that they they watched it, you know,
quote unquote supplement their their study.
But it's so easy to be like, I
don't know how to have these conversations with
my kids
and Dave Butler, Emily from they're so good
at what they do. Let's just do that.
Like how

(42:14):
and and so I've really struggled to fit
try to
establish this without falling into like, well, kids,
this is what we do. This is the
program and everybody sit down and open a
verse or watch this.
Or what what general guidance would you have
as far as finding more grace in this
process of of Come Follow Me?
Well, actually, for the first time as we're

(42:34):
as you were just talking,
this thought occurred to me that,
first of all, I wanna get rid of
calling it a program.
Uh-huh.
If we called it a resource
instead of a program,
that would be
step one to making it a lot more
powerful.
And the name of it is come follow
me.

(42:54):
So the name of it tells you its
purpose.
Right? Mhmm.
This is a one more resource,
one more on ramp
to coming unto Christ
and learning to be a disciple of him.
And and
if if somebody just took that approach
and then and and went from there, I

(43:16):
think it could instead of being stressed out
about, am I doing this right? Like, when
somebody asks, am I doing this right?
Like, I'm like, I think you're missing Yeah.
Red flag. Yeah. You're missing Trying to reevaluate.
Yeah. Yeah. I'm not saying you're do like,
that you're wrong or there's something wrong with
you. I'm just saying, like, oh,
it's a red flag to me because I'm
like, I bet you're you're so stressed about

(43:36):
it, and I don't think you ought to
be. I think you ought to feel like
it's important.
Like, stress is an indication of that you
actually care. Uh-huh. And that's good. Like, I'm
glad that you're wrestling with it, and I'm
glad that you care because I think you
I think that's
fantastic
for somebody. And I because I do the
same. You know? But,

(43:58):
if you're stressed about, I might be doing
this wrong or right,
I think that's the wrong thing to, like,
care about. Yeah. And I think you ought
to care about, like, are we meeting
the mark
as a family?
And what's the mark? You know? And it's
like, oh, we are trying to do something
to come under Christ, to learn of him

(44:18):
more, to love him more. And so Jenny
and I, like and and we keep switching
and changing, but, like, we have our purpose,
which is our time together in scripture is
going to be to love God and love
each other more. And that's the mark that
we're going to, like Yeah. That we're gonna
hit. And so we designed our own, like,

(44:38):
way of doing it,
for that meets, like, our family's Yeah. Needs.
So, for example let me just give an
example, and then I'll tell you where we've
changed it. Is we've, like, thought,
okay. Let's,
we're gonna take just one verse
out of the chapter.
That's all we're gonna do, and we're gonna
just talk about it. We're just gonna have

(44:59):
a conversation about that one verse. So I'm
gonna pick a good one. Mhmm. Because, like,
you know, it's gotta be one that's can
create a conversation. Yeah. You know? Because we
were reading through, like, a whole chapter, and
everyone left mad and dumber or whatever. You
know? And it just was like, am I
gonna I'm not gonna do this? Yeah. It's
not even it's not we're not loving god
more at the end, and we don't love
each other at the end. So it's like

(45:21):
we're missing our our mark. You know? And
so for the age of our kids, we
did that. And then and then it it's
fantastic. And then we got to notice we
were doing, like, a big fam family, family
home evening, like, extended. And our kids didn't
know any of, like, the stories.
Uh-huh. And
I want them to know the stories because,
like, that's a way that you can remember
principles. Like, storytelling is so important. So now

(45:44):
Jenny and I have started, like, oh, we
better
adjust it a little bit because I actually
want them to know the stories because the
stories are gonna help them love god. Does
that make sense? Like, it all matches up
to that to that mark. But I just
think if some you just gotta start with,
like, what are we what are we trying
to do Yeah. You know, and
implement it. Yeah. And it takes planning.

(46:05):
Like, it it takes a little bit of
effort for it to be
effective. I think, like, we have to sit
down at the beginning of the week and
say, like,
k.
What are we gonna do on each of
the days? And, like,
I can just
it just
sure. We can just, like, plop down and,
like, open the book up and, like, let's
just see. And and that's great. Like, I'm

(46:26):
not against that, but but it's just like,
oh, it just wouldn't be what we were
trying to do with it. And so we
wanna be a little bit more
Yeah. And it goes back to more nice
with your earlier principle of creating a worship
team in your ward. We're essentially doing that
at home, saying, alright, team. You are the
worship team of of this home. And, what's
this look like? What's come follow me come
follow me look like to you? And we
have this book, these resources, and I love

(46:47):
that that using that term. We have these
resources. What do you wanna do? How can
we come follow Christ? Yeah. Yeah. And and
and then now we've got this new idea
where it's like we've got a fifteen year
old and a 13 year old and 11
year old,
you know, who I'm trying to emphasize their
own personal study of the scriptures right now.
And so once summer's done, because nobody wants
to do anything in the summer. Right?

(47:09):
Second summer. Once second summer's done. Like, we've
Jenny and I have talked about, like, let's
give them a day where they are the
ones who pick the verse and say, like,
this this was really significant to me when
I when I read, you know, and it's
just, anyways, takes more planning and but Yeah.
For for me personally, like, sometimes I fall
into this trap where I'd feel like, come
follow me is, like, homework. You know, it's

(47:31):
like, okay. This chap this week, we're doing
these these chapters and,
I mean, we need to make time for
homework, you know, and I sit down sometimes
and I kinda get in that trap of,
like, going through the motions
or, and I'm sort of on this kick
right now where
I completely refuse to believe that God has
ever disappointed in me. It just is not
helpful to my spiritual progress.

(47:51):
Sure. Maybe if I went and murdered a
bunch of people, yeah, then maybe there'd be
some disappointment there. But but when I am
not doing it the right way,
there's no disappointment there. It it's helped me
to sort of step back and be like,
you know, I'm just here.
I haven't had, like you know, I've had
those moments where I sit down with scriptures
and I'm, like, I'm making connections and hold
this Hebrew word and all Latin.
Great. And over in this reference. Right? And

(48:13):
it's, like, so spiritually, like,
uplifting
and yeah. Invigorating.
And there's other times where it's like
it's almost like God is just saying, like,
would you just take your nose out of
the book for a minute? Just be with
me for a minute, you know, and and
just to be okay with that. And and
and sometimes several weeks go by and people
are like,
oh, you know, we're on this story. I'm

(48:33):
like, wait. What story are we on? Like,
I I haven't even looked at the book
for three weeks. But in my heart, I
feel like, you know, that's okay. Like, I
just want to hear Amazing connection with God.
Right. You know? Yeah.
We have got some sort of bizarre culture,
and maybe it's a culture that exists in
other faiths as well. Or I've been thinking
recently about, like, manifest itself really strong in

(48:54):
missionaries.
You know? Mhmm. That if a missionary goes
and serves
for three months and comes home Mhmm. For
some reason, that's shameful. Right. Something happened. Like,
what? Yeah. But I'm like, stop.
Erase everything you know
about
the missionary program.
And what if you, like, met this kid,

(49:16):
and you found out that he left for
three months
to go
try and increase faith in God in in
some other place. Mhmm. Like, be, like,
so proud of that kid. You'd be like,
that's awesome.
You really gave up three months of your
life. Mhmm. You gave up two weeks of
your life

(49:37):
to go do something like that? That's amazing.
You know? But all but for some reason,
we've got this bizarre culture of, like, if
you didn't hit the the standard is supposed
to be that that's a disappointment.
You know? Yeah. And I love what you're
saying about that. It's like, I don't think
God
ever gets disappointed
in what we haven't done.
I think he's just thrilled with anything that

(49:59):
we are doing. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Like
and it's it's just weird to think that
what if somebody serves for a year? For
the rest of their life, they'll feel like,
how disappointed it is. Like, erase that. I
want you to know how thrilled God is
and the rest of us are
that you served for a year.
Like,
that's

(50:20):
fantastic. Yeah. That's powerful. You know?
And this is good,
segue into
your style of teaching where you always you're
always coming from
the point of grace. And there's even been
moments where I've been watching you and Emily
on YouTube and I'll pause it and I'll
turn my wife and see. I say, do
you see how he taught that right there?
Like he taught that from grace where it

(50:41):
so often I hear these, phrases in our
culture and the sacrament meeting of like,
are we really considering
the importance of the temple? Are we really
making it a priority in our life? Are
we really praying with fervor and, you know,
where it is projecting this like, oh, yeah.
That's right. You know, I'm really not. I'm
not measuring up. Thank you for the reminder.

(51:02):
You know? But the way you you position
things, I'm just curious to explore this and
maybe help us understand where,
we as leaders can come from this position
of grace of
just reminding through any gospel principle, any gospel
story, look at this grace. Like, he's he's
a savior after his people, not out of
after his programs. Any thoughts or instruction you

(51:23):
could give us there? Oh, thoughts, not instruction.
Because I just think that there's value in
again, when somebody stands up at the pulpit
to do that,
my assumption is that it's being done from
a place of Right. Love for God and,
you know, and it's like, oh, that's fantastic.
But I just
don't

(51:43):
I feel like people
who feel loved
love well.
And I just think the heart and soul
of
the gospel of Christ is,
for God so loved the world that he
sent his son. Like, I I feel like
that is I I just don't agree with

(52:03):
this idea of, like, some,
like, methods of teaching, like, just seem to
be based off of fear.
You know? And I'm just like, I just
don't think that's a good idea. It's like,
we better not teach grace
or the teenagers might send their life away.
And I and I wanna say, when has
that ever worked?
And I understand that as parents and leaders,

(52:25):
we love, like, our kids so much that
we will go to a place of fear
to protect them. Mhmm. Like, I really will
scare the hell right out of you. Like,
I mean that, like, in, like, a like
a so heaven can come in. Like, because
I'm so afraid,
and I'm just like, that place doesn't seem
to be a place of and I'm saying

(52:45):
this as a parent of a 15 year
old Yeah. Where I am tempted on the
daily. Like You've gone to battle. Right. I
will scare you. You know? Like, I can
see how tempting it is to tell you,
like, there are punishments, and there are you
know? And I'm just like, that just doesn't
seem to motivate people
ever.
Mhmm.
Not the way love can.

(53:06):
Not the way not the way a a
God that's bigger than that can. Not the
way that that grace can.
Like, I love when John says, we love
him because he first loved us.
Like, parents that way.
The 10 commandments start with this. Before
commandment number one, he says, you remember first,

(53:27):
I'm the God that brought you out of
Egypt.
Remember I delivered you first.
Now
do you want to live this fulfilling
life?
Let me show you how.
You know? Yeah. Instead of, you better do
a, b, and c, or you'll never make
it. Or it just just that kind of
approach is and it can be painted all

(53:48):
sorts of different ways. You know? But I
just actually
believe that we are
like you said, God's not disappointed in us,
that he loves is it
there's a place for
one thing I learned one time is,
salvation
was won by the father and the son
and the cross.

(54:10):
Like, that was their work. It's discipleship
that requires my heart, my mind, and strength.
And when I confuse the two,
I think it can be frustrating
and totally burdensome.
So we're confused too as far as Salvation
and discipleship. Oh, gotcha. You know? Like
Like, it's not our job to do the
salvation. You're right. Just say it myself. Yeah.

(54:31):
Right. But do I wanna put my hands
my heart and life into God's hands and
be his disciple? Yes. Do I want him
to transform me in into someone better? Yes.
Then he's like, then I'll show you how.
And it requires sacrifice, and it requires, like,
hard things, and it requires trust, and it
require and it's like, okay. Okay. But that's

(54:53):
not a journey towards
winning his favor.
And if it's a journey to winning his
favor,
then I think is when it becomes, like,
like, oh, like, overwhelming. And impossible.
Yeah. And it's like, I was like, what
if you just went into it knowing, like,
God already loves you?
You're are like, he already is into you.

(55:13):
He already, like, has proven his love to
you. He are like, then all of a
sudden, I'm like,
I want
to follow a God like that. Yeah. Every
week, I feel like that's what the sacrament
says.
Here's the story. The story of redemption is
being acted out again.
The crucifixion is being reenacted
every single week.

(55:34):
Now I get to go into my week
knowing that God is for me,
that he loves me. And and it like,
now I obey
because he won me over.
I wanna follow that God. I wanna put
my life in two seasons. Fear there. It's
all love. Yeah. Right?
That just seems to, like, be a a
I mean, it's how I see the world,

(55:55):
number one.
I don't feel like I wake up in
the morning and have to readjust,
you know, my thinking to that. It's just
kind of how
I see things. Yeah. And and I feel
like I see that happening in in scripture
also. Like, I was like, that seems to
be how he
parents. You know? That's how, like And I'm
not I'm not know. Like, as I go

(56:15):
and I completely agree with you. But as
I go down this path with some people,
they turn to me and say, I get
I get what you're saying. However, let me
show you a few scriptures. How sore you
know not of the the punishment that will
come to you. Right? Like, they can oftentimes
point out scriptures that seem like God seems
pretty disappointed there and he seems pretty angry
there. And so what what about that? So
then we get in our modes of bishop

(56:36):
or parent and we think, well, I've got
to sometimes I have to bring down the
hammer and I've gotta, you know, inject fear
into them so that they are back on
the salvation path.
You know,
so how do you balance that or how
do you
get through that? Well, I think, like,
in our come follow me lesson coming up,
right, or or in the Book of Mormon,

(56:57):
we're gonna study where Alma talks to his
son, Corianton, and he says to him in
in the verse
he says this, I would not dwell upon
your crimes to harrow up your soul if
it were not for your good.
But what he's doing is he is teaching
him
it's not a fear of God. It's a
fear of sin.
And that's the difference.

(57:18):
And sometimes we might take an approach of
teaching someone to be afraid of God's punishment,
and God's punishment
is not inflicted by God. That's the way
it's worded in scripture.
But it's it's like
the punishment is inflicted
naturally by the law.
Does God want us to fear sin? Yes.

(57:41):
Should we ever fear God, like, afraid of
God? Not like the fear the way the
old testament uses scripture, like respect and love
and reverence, but,
there is the difference. Like, there is a
place for understanding the consequence
of justice,
you know, just like, meaning, like, that type
of justice. Like,
the the law will inflict its

(58:02):
punishment.
Like but it's not
God who's doing it. Right. Right? It's just
people are being turned over
to the natural consequences
of sin. Like, the natural
consequence of sin is entropy. It's chaos. It's
death.
You should fear those things.

(58:23):
Right? They are scary. They they they will
bring destruction
to you,
but God's not inflicting it. Mhmm. He's the
rescuer.
Right from the beginning moment of scripture, the
beginning story of scripture
is Adam and Eve
disobeying God. I'm talking about it the way
it's told as a metaphor, not like what

(58:44):
the actual history is. So before someone says
like, sends an email and says, actually, Eve
made a wise like, the
way it's told in Genesis is as a,
like, a metaphor story.
They eat the forbidden fruit,
and they run and they hide.
And my question is, why are you running
and hiding? And it's because

(59:05):
someone has put an idea in their mind
about God that makes them think He's the
kind of person they would wanna run and
hide from. Mhmm.
So what did the devil teach you about
Him
that makes you think
you would wanna run and hide from the
only one who can rescue you and the
only one who can save you? There are
consequences

(59:26):
to eating that fruit.
There are consequences
to sin.
But, like, God is a savior and a
rescuer,
not an inflictor of those things. And I
think that would that would be the difference.
That's powerful. Yeah. And and that I mean,
sometimes you do have to you know, with
your son or with
a youth in the ward or a couple
in the ward, you you have to have
a real conversation about sin and there's consequences

(59:48):
to the path you're going down. And we
want you to know we always love you
here and the savior will always be
battling for your heart. He's always after you.
But it's it cannot be me versus you
and God versus you. Right. Yeah. Right? Like,
if if you have somebody who has a
problem with pornography,
that will degrade and destroy their soul. It

(01:00:09):
will lead to death. Right. You know? It
does.
And it leads to the death of society
and the death to, like,
self esteem and respect.
You know? Like, it leads to that. It
leads to the death of love.
Someone should be really nervous and worried
about where that's gonna lead. Mhmm. But never

(01:00:31):
worried and nervous about God.
Yeah. And and turning to God for help
from that sin. Right? Yeah. That you can
go to him with it, and he doesn't
as, like, elder Renlund said a couple years,
he doesn't recoil
when he sees you come to him. Like,
he doesn't, like, see
the mess you're in and,
oh, what have you done? You know? Like,

(01:00:51):
never.
Yeah. But from day one from day one,
we've been thinking that. And it that's our
common that's our biggest wedge in our relationship
with God, I think. Yeah. Is is roots
it's has its root in that. So Awesome.
Well, we've covered some good things. And, man,
any anything we haven't touched on as far

(01:01:12):
as, you know, the leadership and things that
you would wanna mention before we wrap up?
Oh, man. No. I I didn't even have
anything, you know, that I would I really
don't feel like I'm,
I I I just born and and bred
thinking
that
leadership is is just love.
We've got, like, an organization and a hierarchy

(01:01:35):
or whatever in the church,
and sometimes that is just that can become
such a stumbling block to people when they,
you know, when they see it. Like, how
come that person's in that position or that
person's in that position, and almost, like, someone
can think God's got a good old boys
club or or something like that. And I
just I I I just wanna, like, remind

(01:01:56):
everybody that, like,
God's government is a family.
You know? Yeah. Like and for practical reasons,
sometimes there's organizational,
you know, structure. Scaffolding is a Scaffolding. Yeah.
For everything. But it's like it honestly is
like we are a family.
Yeah. You know? We are a family that's

(01:02:16):
divided into families.
You know what I mean? Yeah. And it's
like, if someone can see that vision
of leadership,
then I I think that would be so
valuable Yeah. You know, to people to to
be able to, you know, to see that.
And
but, no, I I think we're all just
figuring this out together like a family does.

(01:02:38):
Yeah. You know? Right. So if people do
wanna
learn more about you, your what you're doing
with Emily Bell Freeman and and your books
and whatnot, where would they go to find
more about Dave Butler?
Oh,
nowhere. You don't want to. But if you
did,
our YouTube channel is called Don't Miss This.
And I should say something about that, you
know, where Sure. I hope everybody would realize

(01:02:58):
that, like, oh, we see ourselves just as
another resource. Right. You know? It's like, hey.
Here are some thoughts. Let's get into the
scriptures. And what I found is that's been
the most beneficial thing, I think, with that
YouTube channel, and it's the reason we keep
doing it. Yeah. Because it's I just we
just filmed two more yesterday, and it is
a pain in the rear. You know, it

(01:03:19):
takes so much time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Here
we are doing the you know? And and
and it's just, like,
like, I just think it's fantastic for for
people to have a,
have a chance to get in their scriptures
again. And people will stop us, and they'll
say, like,
you have just changed my life.
And I wanna say,
oh, no.

(01:03:40):
God did.
And you got into the scriptures
and started spending time with him, like you
were saying. And Right. And we just became
an on ramp
into that. And that's what the Come Follow
Me resource can be, is an on ramp.
And that's what Sunday school can be, is
an on ramp. And it's just on ramp
into relationship
with with God, and and I think that

(01:04:01):
that's,
that's its value and purpose. And people can
use it however they want. I don't think
that, you know
Yeah. They should, you know, just whatever you
well, great. If it helps? Yeah. Perfect. Yeah.
Why are we sad? If it makes you
fall asleep at night, great. Yeah. Exactly. Right?
Exactly. So that's called Don't Miss This. And,
Then you have some some great books, a
Deseret book, that I've I've read, and Oh,

(01:04:22):
thank you. And I sent a trilogy coming
on here. But Yeah. I just got the
third one just
in the mail yesterday. And you focused on
the Trinity. Right? The God the father, the
The savior. And then now the spirit is
is coming out. And then Instagram, our Instagram.
We have a don't miss this Instagram and
then mister Dave Butler's mine. You're a good
follow because you're real. It's just like Oh,
you're nice. Here I am with my kids.

(01:04:43):
I'm I'm normal. You know? But so
last question I have for you as you
reflect back, particularly in your in your roles
as a leader at times as as a
bishop and and others,
that role as a leader, how has that
made you a better follower or a disciple
of Jesus Christ?
One thing that I did love about

(01:05:05):
serving as a as a leader was the
chance to just spend time with,
people.
Right? And and it just emphasized
even
more strongly
that, like,
love God, love people. Like, that's just that's
what it's all about.
Right? Is is that and it is is
just so inspiring,

(01:05:28):
to have a chance
to, like,
hear people's
faith questions,
to learn more about their faith story,
to see God,
rescuing people.
Like, it just was,
I I just got more,
opportunities
to have a front row seat
in watching God

(01:05:50):
intervene
and move into people's stories, and,
that was one of the best parts about
that particular
role. But I I just feel like that
gets to be everybody's experience,
you know, wherever it is that they're
serving in the church, and particularly,
like, I've just always seen,
I've been called

(01:06:10):
to help take the story of redemption to
the world,
and to love people really well. Like, that's
what I feel like I've been called to
do. I've got different assignments that fall under
that bigger umbrella, and some of those have
been, like, within the church, you know, but
I feel like it can just be everybody's
experience to take that front row seat. But,
seeing that has made me love God even

(01:06:31):
more. And that's made me a better disciple
to just see, like, oh, God really is
bigger than I ever thought he was. And
he really does love people as deeply
as I've always thought he did. And those
experiences,
you know, seeing that's made me just love
him

(01:06:54):
even more.
That concludes my interview with Dave Butler. Isn't
he fun, guys? I mean, get yourself a
leadership style like Dave Butler has a leadership
style. He's just such a real person and
even walking out, like, by the time,
you know, he showed me out of the

(01:07:14):
the building, I just felt like we were
old friends and I'm looking forward to future,
future interactions with him. If you have any
other suggestions
of individuals I should reach out to, connect
with, interview,
I would love to hear it. Go to
leadingsaints.com/contact.
And if you don't have a person to
recommend, would you just go there and tell
me your favorite episode? Like, I just love

(01:07:36):
getting the emails where people say, man, I've
listened to this particular episode four times and
I love it. Right? That's good feedback and
something that helps me realize,
maybe I should have that person on again
or maybe we should have that person write
an article or whatever it is. Like, it
just good feedback is really awesome and I'm
addicted to email.
I know. I need to get over it,

(01:07:56):
but I'd love to see your email come
through. And that concludes this throwback episode of
the Leading Saints podcast.
Remember,
up your teaching game by listening to the
David Farnsworth presentation by visiting leadingsaints.org/fourteen.

(01:08:17):
It came as a result of the position
of leadership which was imposed upon us
by the God of heaven who brought forth
a restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
And when the declaration
was made concerning the only and only true
and living Church upon the face of the
earth,

(01:08:37):
We were immediately put in a position of
loneliness,
the loneliness of leadership
from which we cannot shrink nor run away,
and to which we must face up with
boldness and courage
and ability.