The Doctrine Related to Being Single or Married | An Interview with Michael Goodman - Leading Saints Podcast

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Today, I'm in person with my guest, professor

(02:52):
Michael Goodman. How are you? Wonderful. Thanks. How
are you? Good. Now we I feel like
we've used and abused you at Leading Saints
with the various
interviews and things, but, you're back again for
more. Happily.
So and I'm glad you agreed to it.
And what I wanted to do with this
session
is I wanted to get a BYU religion
professor
who spends his time studying, researching, oftentimes putting

(03:15):
curriculum together all around the related doctrines for
single adults in the church, whether that's eternal
marriage,
you know, this life, the next life, sealing
and all these things
that relates and
fire some questions at and see what we
can learn. So Super.
You maybe for individuals who aren't familiar with
you and your background, maybe just put yourself
into context with that. K. My PhD is

(03:37):
in marriage and family, and that was
wonderful opportunity to formalize a passion that I've
always had, which is to understand what makes
marriage work, what makes family work.
I'm a mutt,
so I've got a I've got an associates
in business, a bachelor's in journalism, a master's
in IT, and a PhD in marriage and
family, and I teach religion. So Oh, goodness.
So I'm a high quality mutt, or at

(03:58):
least a mutt one way or the other,
but it's given me a background and a
perspective
academically that helps me to speak on different
topics. I've had many wonderful opportunities to serve
in the church. I've been a BYU Bishop.
I've been a Mission President. I've served on
several general committees for the church. Currently, I
am doing that.
So,
yeah, that's about me in a nutshell. And

(04:18):
sounds like a well rounded, individual. So that's
good. Yeah. That's great. So
you were you chaired the committee of putting
together the eternal family or what what what's
the course called? Eternal family. Cur eternal families.
And and this is a religion course that
every student BYU takes. Is that right? Exactly.
So there's a there are four core what
we call cornerstone classes that every BYU student

(04:39):
has to take from the religion department.
One based around the bible, one based around
the doctrine of covenants, one based around the
Book of Mormon and
the eternal family. What? I was the chair
of the group that put that together and
also wrote the BYU online
curriculum for that. Great. Great. So, you're a
go to here. You'll if if there is

(05:00):
an answer, you probably have it. So I'll
give you an answer. You left your side
of it. So I alright. But, yeah, I've
I've got a little bit of experience with
this. Cool. Well, let's start there. As far
as, like, how does BYU handle teaching eternal
families and marriage, especially in a group that
you're hoping is moving towards maybe that ceiling
ordinance, you know? You bet. We've got the
the interesting reality here is that about 80%

(05:23):
of our students are single, 20%,
maybe a little less sometimes are married. So
we're teaching a mixed
status
audience.
But the the class is meant to teach
the doctrines and principles
that God has revealed through prophets
regarding the the the
eternal nature of family. Now, most of us

(05:43):
who teach it, including myself, have PhDs in
the topic
act are active social scientists. So we will
add some of those things to the material.
But the reality is the course is based
on what have prophets, seers, and revelators taught
regarding the nature of marriage and family in
the eternities and how to take those truths
and some of the things we learned from

(06:04):
day to day living and help people succeed
in in their marriage and family life. Yeah.
And I would guess, like even in other
religious institutions or colleges, I mean, there's no
family type of curriculum that they're getting. Yeah.
This is a bit unique.
There are there are family systems, more of
a secular study of the family.

(06:24):
There are
classes that are explicitly based on
on either people's best guess or the science
behind how do you do marriage better. And
most of those are based in communication or
some other thing. This class is quite unique
in in its focus on
we understand to be eternal principles related to
this. Now, eternal principles are crucial when you're

(06:45):
trying to understand what's gonna happen in the
next life in the nature of marriage and
family, but we also talk about Monday and
we talk about sexuality and we talk about
communication. We do all those things as well,
but we put that into the context of
the the plan of salvation. Yeah. Yeah. So
where's do we start building a foundation here
as far as the as doctrine related to
eternal family? And, obviously,

(07:06):
our hope is to help leaders or other
individuals better understand this to be a better
help to maybe those who haven't had that
that blessing
in this life to some extent. You bet.
It's an interesting challenge because
all the other core classes and what you
think of as, for instance, seminary classes, they're
all based around a a volume of scripture.

(07:28):
And so our children, from the time they're
in primary, are studying and restudying and restudying
Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Bible, all
that. And so by the time they hit
BYU, they've got a pretty solid foundation.
Though it's true in the church, we talk
about the family a lot.
It's
often a lot of the family's great, the
Family's wonderful. The family's eternal. You should like

(07:50):
family. Name Jesus Christ, amen. And we move
on. And so we
from primary on, we're not doing a lot
of teaching of the foundations, the doctrines, the
the realities eternally behind it. And so when
students come to BYU,
we don't generally have to convince them that
the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day
Saints values marriage or values family.

(08:11):
But totally honestly,
many of them could not explain why
in detail. I don't want to be insulting
in any way, but but there's a lot
of learning that goes on in that class.
And so
our class is is it's interesting. We were
when this process was happening, when we were
trying to decide what the core classes of
religion would be, There were a few of

(08:33):
our my beloved friends, my fellow faculty members
that weren't real comfortable with the family being
there because it wasn't based on
a scriptural text. Mhmm. This class is based
in the teachings of living prophets. Yes, we
use scripture. Yes, we take principles from
that. But it's the only one of the
four core classes that is actually a
modern prophets

(08:54):
based class as much as it is anything
else. And so we have an opportunity to
try and help our students
basically from it's not just first date to
chosen mate. It's not just the concept of
how to value it and get married, but
to see where marriage and where family fit
in the eternities. And so you ask the
question, where do we start? Doctrinally,
interestingly, we start

(09:15):
scripturally. And so so for example, we'll bring
students to doctrine and covenants one thirty one
if I'd just read just a Yeah. Yeah.
Just a smidge just for fun. Right? And
most students can almost quote this. Right? In
the celestial glory, there are three heavens or
degrees.
And in order to attain the highest, a
man must enter into this order of the
priesthood,
which, by the way, when the scripture was

(09:35):
given or when it was written down by
Joseph Scribe, the parenthetical statement, meaning the new
and everlasting covenant of marriage, was not part
of the text. That was added later by
Brigham Young. But in order to obtain the
highest, a man must enter into this order
of the priesthood. And if he does not,
he cannot obtain it. Obtain what? Obtain the
highest degree,

(09:56):
in the celestial kingdom. He may enter into
the others, but that is the end of
his increase. He cannot have an increase. So
so before this, back in 1830 well, in
the eighteen thirties, late eighteen thirties, Joseph was
already teaching the possibility of eternal family that
you could be sealed to someone for eternity.
So the earliest documents we have on that
from
they just went blank on it. Well, not
Wilford would have w w Phelps

(10:19):
and partly p Pratt
share in their journals or in their letters
to their family that, hey, this wonderful doctrine,
you could be sealed forever. But none of
those said you had to be sealed.
They didn't make your salvation
contingent on your marital status.
This was the first one that did that.
Doctor. Comes one thirty one, which said, no.

(10:41):
For our ultimate purpose in life,
it requires a man and a woman to
be sealed together. And then, of course, if
you go into section one thirty two,
it continues that. People often get lost in
one thirty two because it it deals with
plural marriage, which we'll talk about today Yeah.
A little bit also. But they don't realize
that the the first whole beginning has nothing
to do with plural marriage. It has to
do with eternal marriage. And so if you

(11:01):
take one thirty one and one thirty two,
that really gives you your doctrinal base.
And then, of course, in our class, we're
going to go to the family proclamation.
That's what the class is based off of.
In fact, we have 14 units. They're based
off of each of the paragraphs of the
family proclamation with a little bit of a
little bit of wiggle room in there. But

(11:21):
you have a statement like this. We, the
first presence in the Council of Twelve Apostles
of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter
day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a
man and a woman is ordained of God.
So, yeah, God likes it. And that the
family is central to the creator's plan for
the eternal destiny of his children. So so
you're beginning to see this concept of of

(11:43):
family is not just nice.
Marriage isn't just sweet if it happens,
but it's actually
central to the creator's plan for our eternal
destiny.
And so
those provide what you'd say is is is
foundational texts for it. But prophets, as you
know, have been teaching for
a long time.
President Oaks, probably one of the more frequent

(12:06):
speakers on this topic, right? And President Nelson,
both of them, funny thing they're in the
first presidency now. Yeah. President Oaks, here's a
here's a couple thoughts for you. Our theology
begins with heavenly parents.
Our highest aspiration
is to be like them. So think of
section one thirty one.
In order to obtain the highest degree of

(12:27):
the celestial kingdom, you have to have a
man and a woman sealed together. You think
of section one thirty two, which reiterates that
in very graphic detail.
Why?
Because it's central to God's plan for our
ultimate destiny.
What is our ultimate destiny?
That's where a statement like this
from President Oaks, our theology begins with heavenly

(12:47):
parents. Our highest aspiration is to be like
them. And then statements like this, the purpose
this is Elder Oaks also.
The purpose of mortal life
and the mission of The Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter day Saints
is to prepare the sons and daughters of
God for their eternal
destiny,
dash,

(13:08):
to become like our heavenly parents.
A fairly
straightforward declaration
that that heavenly father is not interested in
turning us into kind of heavenly cheerleaders,
but that the goal of our heavenly parents
is to help us become like them, which
shouldn't seem so strange being as that's kind
of the goal of Yeah. We experience this
that as mortals. Right? Exactly. And so so

(13:29):
I guess you'd say, when we're looking at
at the doctrine of marriage,
the doctrine of marriage cannot be understood outside
of the plan of salvation.
It can't be understood outside of our destiny
to become like our heavenly parents. Really love
a statement by Ted R. Callister. He says
this,
It is this doctrine of identity
that defines our potential

(13:52):
destiny
of godhood.
If one does not correctly understand his divine
identity, wish we could have his and hers
in there, understand it's there,
then he will never correctly understand his divine
destiny.
They are in truth, inseparable partners. And so
we begin our understanding of the concept of
eternal family,
truthfully, not with marriage,

(14:13):
but with our
childhood to God that we are the children
of God and if children then heirs heirs
to God to become like God.
Never is equal,
never her equal, never have any mother's equal,
but
their goal for us is to help us
become as they are and to receive all
that they have. That's section one thirty two

(14:35):
in a nutshell. Yeah. So Yeah. That's helpful.
And, you know, just the other day, I
was listening to an interview between two evangelical
Christians, and they got on the topic of
marriage. And I think outside of
our faith tradition in the Christian world, you
know, there's a belief that marriage does not
continue after life or nor does marrying, nor
does any of those type of relationships continue.
Right. And so this is such a remarkable

(14:57):
doctrine that's been revealed. And and we especially
look at, you know, heavenly parents. It's easy
to think, wow, you mean there's a a
feminine divine as well? Like, that's so powerful.
That also means that there's a an eternal
a divine marriage that's happening, which is just
as weighty and exciting
as realizing that we have a mother in
heaven. It's huge.

(15:18):
The doctrine of mother in heaven is not
a fringe doctrine as the brethren have said
on the very church website, the essay on
heavenly mother, is that this is a cherished
and important belief
doctrine of ours.
I teach I've taught about 10,000 students at
BYU. I'm an old man.
Given semester of three to 500 students. Right?

(15:38):
I wish you could look in the eyes
of these bright, brilliant women
as they come to begin to see
the reality of a mother in heaven,
that they're not meant to grow up to
be a a kind of a different version
of Heavenly Father,
but that they have a mother in heaven
as well and that that that puts the

(16:01):
plan of salvation into a familial
framework Yeah. Where we can begin to understand
that it's our identity as the children of
God
to receive all that they have. Yeah. Yeah.
So as you, like, lay that foundation, like,
it's so fun to listen to because you
just realize how miraculous this is, how these
doctrines are so

(16:21):
so miraculous and and they're exciting and that
you feel that energy. And then I try
and put myself into the shoes of a
a single adult, and it's sort of like,
wow, that is miraculous, and I don't get
any piece of that. Right? Or and then
you default you know, leaders default to the
oh, well, we've been promised that someday you'll
you'll everybody will get the chance. It was
like, well What about now? Yeah. What about
now? So after laying that foundation, like, just

(16:43):
speaking to single adults, like, where do we
go with that? You bet. I think it's
crucial
that we acknowledge
the pain to start with.
Not all experience that. Some are bushy eyed
and and bushy tailed and bright eyed and
just happy as little clams, and they're just
going through it. 20, they're happy. 30, they're

(17:03):
happy. 40, they're still they have.
Some are not affected, but others are
dear beloved friends of mine who who have
experienced
just psychic pain
because they felt like, well, where am I?
Where am I in this plan? They have
a hard time seeing themselves
whether they're simply single
and haven't had an opportunity or or it

(17:24):
hasn't worked or whether they experience same sex
attraction or gender dysphoria or whatever
the issue is that they they're saying, where
do I fit? And so I think I
think it's crucial that we start by
by being honest and saying, yeah, I can
understand how that could be painful. Mhmm. And
not simply blowing it off. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
In the next life, it's all gonna be
good, which, by the way, we believe in
the next life it all will be good.

(17:45):
But you don't have to wait till the
next life for that goodness to start. Right?
I love a statement by Neil a Maxwell.
Oh, Neil a Waxhaw. I just lied. Neil
l Anderson.
When he was teaching in general conference two
thousand sixteen, he said this.
We will continue to teach the Lord's pattern
for families.
But now with millions of members and the

(18:06):
diversity we have in the children of the
church,
we need to be even more thoughtful and
sensitive.
Our church culture and vernacular are at times
quite unique.
It's a good way to put it. The
primary children are not going to stop singing.
Families can be together forever.
But when they sing, I am so glad
when daddy comes home or with father and

(18:26):
mother leading the way.
Not all children will be singing about their
own family.
And we have to realize that.
I was I was raised by two
wonderful,
wonderful
alcoholic parents.
My family did not
match the picture of what we learned families
are, in theory, intended to be in this

(18:47):
life.
But that did not make of me a
second class citizen.
As Elder Gong and and several others that
have actually got statements I'll I'll share a
little bit later have stated in general conference,
our our status with God isn't based on
our marital status.
It's based off our heart. It's based off
our covenant connection with God. And so I'd

(19:07):
simply say as we as we continue to
teach the doctrines, we realize there are some
that have a hard time seeing themselves in
there and acknowledge that pain and
live in that pain. Be willing to sit
down with someone and let them share
without doing what I'm I'm infamous. I wouldn't
say famous. This is the bad part of
wanting to solve. Right? I'm like, yeah. Yeah.

(19:29):
But
yeah. Please solve.
But no one is gonna care squad of
what you say if they don't think you
understand where they're coming from. Yeah. I think
that's really crucial. Like, just making space to
acknowledge that pain because it's uncomfortable. Like, I
don't wanna be in a room where somebody
is feeling pain. I wanna swoop in there
and and make it all better, you know?
That's right. And so I think that's just

(19:49):
great advice that it's not that there's some
scripture if you read a certain way or
a quote that nobody's heard of in the
morning. Yeah, exactly. But it's more of like
just sitting with them. And it really, you
know, the savior was the master of that,
just sitting with them in the pain and
saying, I bet that hurts. You know, I
don't I don't fully understand that. I haven't
lived your life, but I bet that really
hurts. I'm willing to sit with you in

(20:09):
that direction. Exactly.
Where where I think I think we're getting
better and better at that nowadays. I think
that that our culture is such that that
that is the expected
reaction, and it's the right one. Mhmm. Without
it, nothing else works. But I also think
we forget that the savior never stopped there.
Yeah. Right? Like, Elder Holland's fond of saying,
you know, God will take you right where

(20:30):
you are. He just won't leave you where
you are. Right? He's gonna continue. And so,
yes, live with that person. But then
ultimately,
not only, yes, it'll work out in the
next life, but say, okay. What about now?
What do we need to know now so
that we can experience joy
now? Can can I share a few principles?
Yeah. Let's do it. Thoughts. I think of
these as kind of four

(20:51):
overarching principles that help us to understand
the ceiling ordinance that help us understand how
this fits for a single or
a divorced person. Both my parents divorced,
and that's ripping rich and ripe in my
family.
What are the principles that can help us
understand how God's gonna make it all right
as long as we
stay covenant connected to him? So one,

(21:14):
no one will be denied any blessing that
Heavenly Father has promised all his children because
of something outside their control. I'm going to
share a couple of statements from the prophets
so it's not just from Brother Goodman because
that would be very scary. Because Brother Goodman
said you should never believe it. But if
the prophet said that, then we're a little
bit better.
But God will not deny any blessing to
his children because of something outside of their

(21:34):
control.
And so when we are doing all that
we can in righteousness,
no matter what our situation is,
the Lord will take that and turn it
into gold.
And nobody will be denied. Pick your pick
your challenge. Pick your mental health challenge. Pick
your physical health challenge. Pick your geographic isolation
challenge.

(21:54):
Pick your social awkwardness challenge. You know, whatever
it is, pick the reality that some people
don't feel an attraction of some of the
opposite gender or they just feel uncomfortable in
their skin as far as their own gender.
There are many reasons why people may not,
at this moment,
see themselves in the plan of salvation.
I think it's absolutely crucial that we start

(22:16):
by saying you're there.
You're there. I can't promise you that this
is there or that is there.
Same sex attraction is there or or
some
aspect of physical or mental health, whatever it
is. I I can't say that, but I
can look you in the eye and say
without a doubt, you're in the plan of
salvation. Heavenly father has a plan for you

(22:36):
and you will not be denied any blessing
ultimately
that God promises all of his children. In
other words, until there's hope
until there's hope that they're
the things will feel better than they sometimes
do right now, there's no way to move
forward. So we start with that. Two,
God will not, our heavenly father will not
abrogate agency.

(22:57):
Abrogate's a funky term. You always teach me
a word every time we do an interview.
I I learn a word. Basically means
to stop or limit or take away.
God
cannot be God and take away agency. Now
agency doesn't mean you get to do whatever
you want without any consequences.
Right. But you'll get what you want
as long as that thing that you want

(23:19):
is righteous.
And so if your desire is righteous,
is in line with heavenly father's will for
his children,
he's gonna make it possible. You might say,
I don't see how it's possible. And right
now it's not. And you go, I totally
agree. Right now where you are thinking what
you think, it may not be possible. But
to God, it is. He does not limit

(23:41):
agency. He does not make
it impossible for us to receive all that
he has given if we're simply willing to
do what he's asked us to do. Yeah.
Principle number three.
God loves us with a perfect love and
will do everything in his power to exalt
us. I had an interesting situation when I
was a fairly new convert. Joined the church.
A year later, went on a mission. Came

(24:02):
back. I was off with my brother-in-law,
good friend, and I was kind of bemoaning
the reality of my own family of origin.
Mother and father alcoholics,
drug abuse,
jail time, just you name it. We we're
the poster child of dysfunctionality. Right? And I
was bemoaning the thought that I worried that
I wouldn't be with my parents for eternity.

(24:23):
And my brother-in-law
is not a majorly churchy guy in any
way, but my brother-in-law,
just a good man, looked at me and
said, Mike, do you really think you love
your parents more than God?
Woah.
That's not what I was saying. He said,
yeah. That's exactly what you're saying. What would
you do for your parents if it were
within your control?

(24:44):
Everything. Would you force them? No. I wouldn't
force them because that's not love. There's this
agency thing. Go back to principle two. But
do you really think God won't give them
all
that they are willing to receive? And
it was like all of a sudden,
a massive weight fell from my shoulders. I
know the goodness of my parents.
Neither of them were up for the gospel.

(25:06):
I tried,
but I know the goodness of my parents.
I know I couldn't force them. I know
I can't nor nor will God force them.
But God kinda likes them more than I
do and has a whole lot of more
knowledge than I do. And so if I
understand that he loves with a perfect love
and he's not giving up, He's going to
do everything he can to help
that then can help
us when we are faced with situations we

(25:28):
don't understand, we don't have hope. We can't
figure out how in our own head it's
going to work.
It can't work. And then last but not
least, and this comes down to the concept
of, yeah, cool, but what about now? Through
the grace of Christ, Heavenly Father can provide
solutions to temporary situations outside our control. Mhmm.
No.
Our single friends
don't have to wait till the next life

(25:50):
to experience joy. That's pure nonsense.
Adam felt that men might be men or
that they might have joy is what the
savior taught. Now, all to ultimately, none of
us have that joy in fullness in this
life.
None of us we we were joking before
we started. None of us are gonna get
out of this alive. None of us are
are challenge free. I I think you're aware
I've just been diagnosed with my fourth case

(26:11):
of cancer. Yeah. I know that I have
cancer. I didn't want my third or my
second or my first. I don't want the
treatments I'm about to start.
Having said that,
the grace of Christ can do for me
in my situation
what he can do for all in their
situation. He can help us learn to live
life joyously

(26:33):
now. And that's what the prophets are trying
to they're trying to help us see. Yes.
The next life is going to be peachy.
Stop worrying about that.
Start worrying about what you can do right
now. Can I share just a few statements?
Just just for the sheer fun of it.
Yeah.
So a couple just just so you know,
it's not Mike Goodman's.
It's not thus f Mike Goodman. That'd be

(26:54):
so scary. President Kimball,
we promise you that in as far as
eternity is concerned, no soul will be deprived
of rich and high and eternal blessings for
anything which that person could not help,
that the Lord never fails in his promises,
that every righteous person will receive eventually all
to which the person is entitled

(27:15):
and and this is interesting, in which he
or she has not forfeited through any fault
of his or her own. So, yeah, agency
is real and consequences to actions are real.
What the savior is desperately saying and what
president Nelson is just pleading with us is
stay covenant connected.
If you'll stay covenant connected to God, there's
nothing you will lose. There is no no

(27:37):
righteous desire that you could ever hope for
that will not all be yours if you'll
simply stay with me. President Nelson, how about
that?
Through no feeling of their own,
they, some individuals in life, they deal with
the trials
of life alone.
But we all
reminded
be we all reminded that, in the Lord's

(27:59):
own man time, no blessing
would be withheld from his faithful saints. The
Lord will judge and reward each individual according
to heartfelt desires as well as deeds. And
so present
Nelson is saying, listen, don't fear.
Don't live life thinking, oh my goodness.
I'll never have this. It's just not right.
It's not accurate. I'm not gonna read all

(28:20):
these but but literally.
Lorenzo Snow, Harold b Lee, Spencer w Kimber,
Howard w Hunter, Gordon b Hinckley, Thomas s
Monson, Russell M. Nelson, how that's for a
few profit Yeah. Have all made the exact
same statements.
God will make all possible if we will
simply do
if we'll stay connected.
Then we'll receive all

(28:41):
all that we can, all that we want.
But what does it mean for now? Right?
Richard G. Scott. I love Elder Scott.
He said this, Throughout your life on earth,
seek diligently
to fulfill
the fundamental purposes of this life through the
ideal
family.
Sounds like a very typical thing to say,
right? Mhmm. But then he says this,

(29:03):
While you may not have yet reached that
ideal,
do all you can
through obedience and faith in the Lord to
consistently
draw as close to it
as you're able.
If for the present that does not include
sealing in the temple to a righteous companion,
lift it.
It. Pray for
it. Exercise faith that you'll obtain it.

(29:25):
We cannot say whether that blessing will be
obtained on this side of the veil or
beyond. And we don't make promises God hasn't.
God hasn't said when it's gonna happen. But
the Lord will keep his promises. In his
infinite wisdom, he will make possible all you
qualify in worthiness to receive. So so let
let me let me kinda sum that up.
What he got what he's trying to what

(29:46):
the prophets are saying is listen.
The world would build into you and I
fear
anxiety
that we're an insecurity that we're not enough
or that or that we've been
fed up unfair
Thick or hand of cards. Right? Hand of
cards. Exactly. Try it for, like, a better
I I it'll work. It'll work.
And the reality is, of course,

(30:08):
this life I mean, you know, with with
half of what I can look at and
say life is not fair and that's correct.
But God cannot be unfair.
God cannot be unfair. And he promises
compensatory
blessings
for all of us if we'll simply stay
connected to him.
And
we don't have to wait for the joy

(30:29):
to begin.
One of the things I desperately try to
teach my students at BYU is is learn
to live
relationally
now. Mhmm. You are a part of a
family. You're a son. You're a daughter.
You're a brother. You're a sister. You're an
aunt. You're an uncle.
Learn to live relation what Elder Scott said,
if for the present that's not sealing, well,

(30:52):
get as close to it as you can.
Live familiarly.
Fancy term, which means value family.
Right? Value friendship.
Live relationally.
As we do that, we realize, oh my
goodness, God is a relational being. As we
do that, we begin to build a relationship
not just horizontally, but vertically

(31:12):
with God. Yeah. And then life
becomes rich.
Think about this.
Was Elder Gong in the last conference who
said, we crossed over a decade ago to
where over half of the church Yeah. Is
now either single or well, not married. Yeah.
Single or something. Widowed. Something. Something. Right?
So are we really saying that that that

(31:33):
means that over 50% of the church is
doomed to to misery? Do we really believe
that nonsense?
Ask any single person who's actively living life
and doing their very best.
Are they miserable? No. Are they married? No.
Not yet.
What I would point I want to make
somewhere in what we do today is the
concept of none of us are broken.

(31:55):
Yeah. We're in process.
That's a totally different way of looking at
my life. Yeah. I'm not broken
with all my imperfections and I got oodles
of imperfections,
but I'm in process.
And if I will live relationally, live relationally
with God, bind myself to him, live relationally
with those around me, whether that includes a

(32:16):
romantic one on one marriage at this point
or not,
love.
Live.
Lose yourself
in service to others, and today will be
a joyous day. Yeah. Yeah. That's so so
helpful. And a few things I wanna point
out, like, just in the context of leadership
and whatnot is, you know, you reference, I
think, in principle one that that God won't

(32:37):
God won't deny anybody anything, especially these righteous
blessings. Right? And so we could follow that
example of saying, you know, I'm going to
be an individual, especially a leader that doesn't
deny them of certain opportunities. Right? Now, you
know, as far as in the context of
callings, there's a handful of administrative callings that
yeah. Very, very little. Right? Very few. But

(32:59):
just, you know, from a recent general conference,
that's been the encouragement. We need to
not deny them of some of these beautiful
opportunities in our ward families. And and so
that's I think I love to think that
in the context that God's not denying them
anything. So why do we sometimes deny them
anything? And and God mourns when we do.
Yeah. Right? Because he doesn't love his married
children and and like his single children.

(33:21):
Mhmm. He loves us all. He wants our
happiness.
That's the
it's the whole purpose of our existence. Right?
The world
is selling us a mess of potty when
it's trying to convince us that if you're
not married, you can't have happiness.
If you're not in a stereotypical

(33:41):
Latter day Saint family,
you're an outsider. You don't fit. Now mind
you, I understand that people can treat others
like that. And when we do, shame on
us. Let's get some repentance going on. Right?
Mhmm. But they're not outsiders to God. Yeah.
They're not outsiders to those who truly know
and understand the gospel. And then do we
have to do better? Yes, we do.

(34:03):
And I'm not in any way wanting to
guilt someone who's feeling like that, but I'm
wanting them to understand you belong.
You belong and you're right. At this point,
you're the majority.
Yeah. So so you're you're you're not the
minority. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And then, you know,
another example of the God loves us, obviously.
I mean, that's primary level,
doctrine, but it's so true. And so the

(34:24):
more that we can reach out and
love those single adults in our circles is
helpful. And and oftentimes, we think and as
I've interviewed other single adults for this summit,
that's been a strong message of of stories
of people who really love them. And it's
not like, oh, I I sat next to
you in the pew. Like, that's good enough.
Right? But, like, no. You're, like, coming over
to our family dinner. You're, like, part of

(34:46):
us. Like
like, really,
you know, making them part of that that
relationship, whether it's in your family or in
the the local community can go a long
way, you know?
And then the, the covenant connected like as
a leader, like that's sort of the direction
you can push them rather than, well,
how many days you did this week or
how many times you swipe white right then
left or whatever. Right. It's more of like,

(35:07):
how can you as as a single Latter
day Saint
be covenant connected? What do you think? You
know? And and that's where the focus is,
that relationship
with God and our savior rather than, you
know, we've got to go find somebody. That's
right. That's right. Absolutely true. And then just
the they would just it's along the same
line. Just live relationally now. I mean, because
God made us that we are relationship creatures.

(35:29):
You don't do well without them. Right. And
there's no way around that.
Even especially now, it feels
like we're connected more than we are in
reality. We really need people on our lives
and and, lean into those relationships. So And
by the way, quick point that sometimes is
is is misinterpreted.
That need for relationships has nothing to do
with personality traits. It has nothing to do

(35:50):
with introverted or extroverted. Oh, that's a great
point. We all need relationships.
We all need to feel understood and loved.
And
just so happens the savior taught us the
best way to do that.
So it's kind of the paradox.
How do you find yourself?
You lose yourself.
Yeah. So you could sit back and say,
woe is me. No one's being nice to

(36:10):
me. Or we can say, okay,
who can I go and help at this
point?
Quick story. Yeah. This is not part of
what I was thinking. But Alright. Let's hear
it. I had a I had this wonderful
young lady when I was a bishop at
BYU in my ward.
And she was she was fantastic in all
ways. She was graduated from BYU already, working

(36:31):
already,
a return missionary, just bright,
but I had a hard time getting her
to activities.
She just never came. She come to church
and that was it. So one day, I
was poking her and just saying, hey, I
wanted
oh, Bishop, you know, it's just not my
thing. I'm kinda shy. And I said I
said, question for you. I just had this
brainstorm. I now know it's inspiration, but back
then, not that brainstorm.

(36:52):
I said, on your mission, you're a true
missionary. I said, yeah. So what you do
when a when a when you brought an
investigator to church, did you just let them
be and see what happened?
And she asked, of course not. You know,
we slobbered up one side and down the
other. We attached them to this person and
that person. And I said,
can I give you an assignment?

(37:13):
And she got that, you know, oh dear,
what are you gonna do? Right? And I
said I said, I want you to come
to ward prayer. You know, we have all
these dorky,
callings at BYU.
I said, I want you to come to
ward prayer. Oh, Bishop. And I can see
her driving. I said, no. No. No. No.
No. She said, I don't want you to
socialize.
Said, I want you to walk in the
door and I want you to survey that
room
and find one person who you think feels

(37:34):
more awkward than you do. And then I
want you to go talk to that person.
Can you do that?
She sat there for a second.
Yeah. I I could do that.
She had gotten herself stuck into the concept
of I have to socialize.
I have to be the life of the
party. Work the room. Right. Work the room.
And that that is so not me. You
put me in a group of people and

(37:54):
I'm a people watcher. I'll get in a
corner and just start watching. I could do
it all day long. But she did. She
came to the next one and she looked
around. I could see in her eyes. She's
like,
oh.
And she found this young man
who was a bit by himself. And
I could I could just see her kinda,
okay, here we go. And so she put
on her missionary shoes, walked over there,

(38:15):
and started chatting just just a little bit
side to side. And he'd smile a little
and she'd smile a little bit. And and
it was fun and, you know, no sparks
or anything, but we went home. Next week,
she came back to work prayer and you
wanna guess who she sat next to. Yeah.
Next week, she came back and and, yes,
they ended up getting sealed,

(38:36):
which is cool. I love that. But the
reality is
I wasn't trying to get her sealed.
Well, that's a lie. If you're a BYU
Bishop, you're always trying to help your your
folks find love. But my goal was to
help her to connect, to live relationally. Yeah.
You don't have to socialize, serve.
Serving is much less threatening.
Right? And so if we can help our

(38:58):
our brothers and sisters who aren't married, stop
sitting back and going, woe is me. There's
reason for the woe is me. I'm not
I'm not Yeah. There's a bit. Yeah. But
it doesn't help to sit in woe is
me.
Gird up our loins, fresh kritch take.
Go love someone.
Yeah. As we love someone, our own light
builds, our own life builds,

(39:18):
and the spirit of God builds in our
life. Yeah. So That's awesome.
Alright. So
let's jump to this and we can jump
around to some of these on our airline.
But I think of those single sisters,
out there who's maybe they know someday
they'll have the opportunity of marriage, but then
they also worry, but yeah. But what if
it's in this eternal polygamous relationship or plural

(39:40):
marriage relationship? So and, you know, the the
concerns and questions. I mean, where do we
start to understand,
you know, plural marriage in our doctrine? Yeah.
So
plural marriage
was a marital practice
that was
not the doctrine,
but the practice
based around a specific

(40:00):
set of circumstances in our history. And when
I say our history, go back.
Your earliest
plural marriages are recorded in the biblical era.
You've got Abraham. You've got Moses. You got
a whole bunch of, stuff going on there.
But long story short,
plural marriage is a system of marriage that
the Lord institutes
on rare occasions

(40:22):
when he sees the need. And it's almost
always interestingly it's almost always at the beginning
of a dispensation. If you go back and
you look at when
plural marriage has been commanded or allowed, it's
almost always as the lord is starting
Yeah. A dispensation. Yeah. Right? But one way
or the other, that also means that there
are those who are sealed for

(40:43):
time and eternity to more than one person.
And members of the church, as a general
rule, know that that happens
with a man and two women, but they
don't realize, doctrinally speaking,
that also happens with the woman and more
than one man. If you go to the
general handbook, it explains this. But let me
this this is just from the gospel

(41:03):
essay on plural marriage,
says this.
Okay. Moreover, members are permitted to perform ordinances
on behalf of deceased men and women
who married more than once on this earth,
sealing them to all their spouses to whom
they were legally married. If you're a man
and you are married to five women, you
can be sealed to those five women. If
you're a woman and sealed to five men,

(41:25):
you can be sealed to those five men
that have passed away. Right?
Then this important statement,
the precise nature of these relationships in the
next life is not known,
and many family relationships will be sorted out
in the life to come. Latter day Saints
are encouraged to trust in our wise heavenly
father who loves his children

(41:45):
and does all things for their growth. It
reminds me I'm gonna go back to the
statement by
by President Oaks on this concept of trusting
God.
Okay. Before I do that, I can back
up just a little bit more. Oh, sorry.
I gotta go back a little bit more.
Do you remember one of the points that
I brought up, one of my four foundational
points was God won't abrogate agency? Yeah.

(42:06):
One of the things that means is you
will never be stuck in a relationship you
don't want to be in. Yeah. You will
never be forced into a relationship
a relationship you don't wanna be. So so
let's assume for a moment that there's a
man and a woman, and
the man it doesn't matter. Man dies.
Now let's simplify this, for right now. Woman
dies. Right? Man is,

(42:27):
lives for another two, three years, finds another,
person, marries her. He's now sealed to both.
Right? How's it gonna work in the next
life?
Yeah. Good answer. Good answer. We don't know.
We simply know it will, and it'll be
glorious. But
will wife number one be stuck in a
plural marriage? Definitely not. No.

(42:47):
No.
Couple statements for you here.
Joseph Ealing Smith.
The dead will have the privilege of making
known the things they desire
and are entitled to receive.
In this way no soul will be neglected
and the work of the Lord will be
protected.
Elder Gong,
marriage covenants are binding by mutual choice of

(43:08):
those making them.
A reminder of God's and our respect for
agency and the blessing of his help when
we unitedly seek it. So we come back
to this concept of, well, I don't wanna
be stuck in a relationship. I don't want
to. Cool. You won't be.
God will not abrogate agency. Nobody will be
forced into a plural or a singular marriage
they don't wanna be in. Yeah. Because in

(43:30):
order for that to be efficacious, the ceiling
to be efficacious,
you have to desire it and be worthy
of it. Right? And so nobody's gonna be
stuck in that situation. Now having said that,
oh, baby.
There's a history
that helps us understand that there are situations
of plurality of marriage, plurality of spouses

(43:52):
that were joyous and happy.
And
to the best of our understanding, those relationships
will exist in the next life.
But there has been not one statement by
a prophet that says
you had said to the church as a
whole,
you have to be willing to live
polygamously

(44:12):
Yeah. To be exalted and have eternal life.
There were specific people where prophets said, this
is you right now.
But there's never been a statement by a
prophet to the church as a whole
that said plural marriage is necessary for salvation,
which is good because there's kind of not
enough people for that to work out. Right?
Yeah. There's kind of this fifty fifty mix
business going on. And so no one, a,

(44:35):
need we're worried that they're gonna be stuck
in a relationship they don't want to. B,
no one need worry
that plural marriage is a requirement in the
eternities.
C,
it's possible
that plural marriage may actually not may, according
to the statements of prophets, will exist in
the next life, but it'll exist in ways

(44:55):
where all those involved have exercised their agency
and desire that relationship. Yeah. That's helpful. We
just smile and go,
shouldn't be it's not part of our it
shouldn't be part of our worry because it's
never possible to be forced in that situation.
Yeah. And I I, you know, that as
far as the aggregate and agency, whatnot, I

(45:16):
heard heard that a lot in the context.
When I was a bishop, for individuals who
would just get out of a divorce, they
just hate this individual, and they come in
and say, Bishop, let's cancel that ceiling. Let's
go over
paperwork. Right? And sort of slow them down
and be like, yeah. But there's still a
there's still an ordinance there that's intact. But
any anything you'd add to that? Yeah. Absolutely.
This is this is hugely important.

(45:37):
I actually use an example. Oh, you know,
I don't have a slide on. I do
have a slide on this, but it's just
not Well, we we can add it in.
We can add it in. We can add
it in. We can add it in. We
can add it in. Yeah.
The reality
I use a a silly analogy. I try
and get as far out from my students
as possible
so that doesn't affect anyone, and we're not
Yeah. In the sense. So I say, okay.
Imagine there's there's Sam and Susie.
Sam's a return missionary. He's a return missionary.

(45:59):
They fall in love. They get married. They
have two babies,
and then Sam becomes an axe murderer. And
I always ask, anyone have family that's axe
murdering? Okay. No events. Right? We're safe, right,
at this point? Okay. So we're safe. So
Sam's an axe murderer, and I'll show them
what's happening to the sealing covenant at that
point. You know, we usually use the triangle
concept. Uh-huh. We got God and Sam and

(46:21):
Susie. Right? So what happened to Sam and
God's covenant connection?
Severed. Right? Severed. Right? What happened to Sam
and Susie's connection?
Severed.
The ordinance is in place. Mhmm. But in
order for that, the holy spirit of promise
to bind that, it has to be based
on righteousness and the desire of both people.
Guess what? That's gone. It's gone. Uh-huh.

(46:43):
Susie
is no longer sealed.
Technically, she's sealed, but she's no longer
the ceiling is no longer efficacious to Sam.
But
Susie's sealing to God,
which was part of the marital covenant Mhmm.
Is still intact.
And many members don't realize that that when
you are married,
you're making a covenant both to each other

(47:06):
and to God.
And so as a result of that,
Sam's an axe murderer and he's got problems.
Right?
Susie
is not only not stuck with Sam,
Susie is continuing to draw the blessings that
come from her ceiling to God.
And that ceiling
can I mean, it's up to Susie and
the first presidency how they want to deal

(47:27):
with that? Right. But then if Susie wants
to remarry, that ceiling will be
officially
cut and then she'll be sealed to whoever
she wants to be. Yeah. And that, that
triangle will be restored at some point. Right?
And that's why I mean, you say, well,
why don't we just, you know, seal individuals
to God? Do you know what? You go
that way. But there's there's power in that
relational

(47:47):
There it is. Ordinance. Right? Well, and and
and you raised a really important point, Kurt,
which is that when Joseph taught the sealing
ordinances, this goes back to the concept of
plural marriage and a bunch of other things.
There's really
two aspects to that that that we are
being sealed to God. And interestingly, in the
early church,
baptism was often referred to as a sealing

(48:08):
to God. Mhmm. That we are baptized, we're
binding ourselves to God. And and you can
think of it that way. Right? Because you're
making a covenant with God when you're baptized.
And so there's the covenant connection with God.
Our spouse has no power
to take that away. None. Zero. That is
between you and God.
And that is ultimately gonna be based on
your integrity, your faith, your desires. Right?

(48:31):
But God doesn't just want to bind us
to him.
God wants to help us become as God
is. Hence, as Elder Oaks says, to become
as our heavenly parents. Well, that doesn't happen
if you don't have a husband and a
wife
where both are bound together and bound to
God.
And so you have the the covenant
not only from you and God, but from

(48:52):
God to you too as a couple. Yeah.
Very important. In fact, that's something that we're
going to talk about. Shall we do it
now? Yeah. Yeah. Let's jump into it. Let's
do it. And I guess I'll just insert
here that I love the concept of why
we need another individual in that is it
sort of gives us an arena to practice
the that commitment to another person so that
we're better at being committed to God. Right?

(49:13):
That's absolutely true. Absolutely true. And and ultimately,
one of the things that we we try
to help our students understand at BYU is
that the the ceiling between a a a
husband and wife
is primary.
The ceiling between husband, wife, and children is
very important.
But let's not pretend that we're gonna live
in a nineteen fifties family up in the
in the in the next life. Our children

(49:34):
aren't going to be living in our living
room up up in the celestial kingdom. They're
hopefully going to be living with their spouses.
Mhmm. So the primary relationship is always
husband and wife.
And mind you, I love my children. I
want them bound to me. And and the
good news is this,
my children have no power to break that
binding tie.
They can sink themselves to hell to quote

(49:55):
a prophet. I don't want them to do
that. But they can, but they cannot break
the binding tie between
my sweetheart, I and them because that's based
on our faithfulness,
not their faithfulness.
K. Seal of ordinance. Yeah. Four four aspects,
and and and this is not brother Goodman.
This this is a dear friend.
Creel Covert. Have you ever heard that name?

(50:15):
I have not. Creel Covert was a member
of the seventy.
He is a dear friend of mine. He
was my area president when I was a
mission president. Oh, cool.
Really awesome guy. Anyway, he wrote an article
that was published in the Ensign in June
1998, which meant he wrote it the year
before
because that's the way it works.
Long story short, that's when he was my
mission president that came out.

(50:36):
Your area. Area president. I was a mission
president. Thank you. And he taught that the
sealing ordinance has four
specific elements.
And if we want our our our young
adults, our singles, our marriage to understand this,
they have to understand the different parts. You
got one,
individual covenants and blessings. So we talked about
that a little bit earlier. When Sam and

(50:56):
Susie are married, they're not only making a
covenant with with each other, they're making a
covenant with God.
And Sam's ax murdering does not
impact Susie's connection. So an individual covenant that
is based on our faithfulness to God, not
our spouse's faithfulness to God nor our spouse's
faithfulness to us. In other words, no one

(51:16):
condemn us.
No one condemn us.
So one, our individual covenants with God. Two,
joint covenants.
These are the things that only
are in place when two people are true
to their covenant. Let me read what he
says.
Elder Colfer, the two of you jointly will
make promises, commandments, and covenants with your heavenly
father and will make covenants to receive each

(51:37):
other as husband and wife.
You then will jointly receive promises of blessings
conditioned upon your joint faithfulness. Notice the word
joint all the time here. The continued faithful
obedience of both of you is essential if
the promised blessings are to be received
jointly.
This is because the promises are made to
you as one. That is as a single

(51:57):
unit consisting of two halves. And so that
joint covenant blessing when when my ex murderer
Sam did what he did,
that blessing is actually taken from both Sam
and Susie because that is only given jointly.
Wait a minute. Susie is gonna be okay.
We're gonna work this out. Right? But that
blessing is actually
dependent or contingent on both people being true

(52:19):
to it. Not only the blessing, though, the
commitment.
Hence, when Sam decides to be an axe
murderer,
he
breaks that commitment to his wife, and she
is no longer stuck
with him. Right?
Three,
joining in celestial marriage. This is the part,
as he said, this element qualifies you to
live together as husband and wife under the
laws of the land. Here that you are
united forever becoming one flesh before the Lord

(52:41):
and forming a new family unit that if
you are faithful and obedient, it will last
forever. So the when most people think about
ceilings, they're thinking about the third part Yeah.
As where you're super glued. Yeah. Right?
And then four, the fourth part of the
sealing ordinance,
blessing for children born in the covenant.
Or in my case, where both my children
are adopted,
sealed after the Mhmm. After the our sealing.

(53:03):
Right? Sealed to us.
All children born to the two of you
are born in the blessings of the sealing
covenant. Thus, it is common to say that
your children are born in the covenant. They're
entitled to the blessings of the Abrahamic covenant
and then he outlines those. And so so
when we're talking about the sealing ordinance, we're
really talking about four specific elements.
Individual promises we make with God,

(53:24):
joint promises we make with God,
the actual binding, the sealing, the super glue,
whatever you want to call it and the
blessings that then entail upon our children as
a result of that.
So four aspects of that sealing covenant that
are necessary for us to actually understand and
that understanding those four elements then helps us
begin to work through some of
the contingencies that we see. Divorce,

(53:47):
death,
remarriage.
When you start to say, okay, let's think
through those the not not just the four
elements of the sealing ordinance, but remember what
we talked about that that God loves us.
He won't aggregate agency.
When you start to put this all together,
you realize that
no one's ever stuck in a relationship they
don't want to be in. No one is
ever going to be denied any blessing that

(54:08):
God would give to all his children. We
don't know the exact
configuration of family units
necessarily with all the complexity that goes with
that in the next life. But as Elder
Oaks said, let me oh, let me share
this. This is good stuff. Gotta love President
Oaks. This is what he said.
For all questions about the spirit world. Now
he's not about the spirit world. I'm going
to expand it a little bit because it's

(54:28):
true of the next phase after that.
I suggest two answers.
First,
remember that God loves his children and will
surely do what is best for each of
us.
Second,
remember this familiar Bible teaching which has been
most helpful to me on a multitude of
unanswered questions.
Trust in the Lord with all thine heart.
Lean not unto thine own understanding.

(54:50):
In all thy ways acknowledge him
and he shall direct thy paths. This concept
of trusting in the Lord.
Trust in the Lord is a familiar
and true teaching of the Church of Jesus
Christ Latter day Saints. That same principle applies
to unanswered questions about ceilings in the next
life
or desired readjustments
because of events or transgressions in mortality. What

(55:12):
happens if my spouse
walks with their covenants
and we still love each other? What happens
with that? Right? There are so much we
do not know that our only sure reliance
is to trust in the Lord and his
love for his children.
This concept that if we can trust the
Lord,
it's not that we have all the detailed
answers because we don't. Anyone who says that,

(55:33):
you know that they're blowing smokeage. Right?
But I love what President Eyring said. Let
me let me and this kinda ties this
whole section together. Plural marriage, the sealing ordinance,
and the and the concept of the singles
and how they can find peace.
President Eyring, for some, that eternal joy may
seem a faint or even fading hope. The
eternal joy of marriage and family and all

(55:54):
that good stuff. Right?
Parents, children, brothers and sisters may have made
choices that seem to disqualify them from eternal
life.
You may even wonder
whether you have yet been qualified through the
Atonement of Jesus Christ.
A prophet of God once offered me counsel
that gives me peace.
I was worried that a choice of others

(56:14):
might make it impossible for our families to
be together for every other same experience I
did. Probably before me. He, the prophet said,
you are worrying about the wrong problem.
You live worthy of the celestial kingdom. Stay
covenant connected
and the family arrangements will be more wonderful
than you can imagine. I love that quote.

(56:36):
That's such a good quote. Yeah. That's great.
And for those of us who come from
divorced families and and all that goes with
that and a and a angelic mother who
loved the church but wouldn't join it and
a father who didn't
wasn't even close to being willing to do
it. I can trust
Heavenly father loves my dad more than I
do. Loves my mom more than I do.
Loves us

(56:56):
and will give us every ounce
that we're willing to receive. Love it. Alright.
So here's a a curveball question just to
that I didn't warn you before. So what's
the the whole the whole concept of of
servants in the celestial kingdom? That's sometimes,
you know, the the singles the adults are
single, then there'll be servants in the celestial
kingdom to those at the highest level. So

(57:17):
I'm gonna take it back to this concept
of God will deny no person
every blessing that that person not only is
willing
to receive,
but will live faithful of. Mhmm. There's no
such thing as a servant in the celestial
kingdom of anyone who doesn't want to be
a servant in the celestial kingdom. So in
other words,
the thought of, oh my goodness, what if

(57:39):
I just
I'm not good enough
or whatever it is, you know, insecurities or
anger or whatever it is. Right?
The Lord is saying to us,
listen, trust me.
Come to me.
Stay covenant connected with me
and open your heart.
Right now, you may not be able to
receive everything that that I want to give

(57:59):
you. Okay. That don't make me love you
less. It just means that we're in for
the long haul. Heavenly father is not impatient.
Mhmm. But we often are.
And so does someone want to be in
eternally binding relationship in the next life?
It's theirs. Yeah. There's no
ifs, ands or buts. It's not
if you're handsome or if you're socially suave

(58:22):
or or if you don't experience same sex
attraction or if you pick your if there
are no ifs,
do we want it? Are we willing to
live faithful
to the Lord's covenants, commandments
in the process of getting there?
If so, there's no Yeah. Servants in the
slasher kingdom. Yeah. And I live just the
concept of if you want a relationship, there's

(58:43):
always one there with god. Yeah. You know,
you can it's always there and and that
he hopes you take that one every time.
And then he'll do with us what we
couldn't otherwise do with ourself. And and I
I come back to this concept because it's
really so important.
Hopelessness
is death.
This concept of I just don't see a
possibility.
I learned an interesting lesson as a mission
president. I back in my day back, you

(59:04):
know, when you walked uphill both ways in
the snow. Back in my day, we had
zone commerce every month. We got new missionaries
every month. We interviewed every missionary every month.
Oh, wow. You're busy. I was busy. I
mean, they're already busy. I was on a
plane twice a week for three years. And
you're in Thailand. Right? So In Thailand. Right?
I
had
probably about one person out of every
group that came to me that tried to

(59:26):
go home early. You know, I can't do
this. I'm depressed. I'm sad. I'm lonely. I'm
sick or whatever it was.
Probably about 30 plus that I had
in the whole mission.
I learned some powerful lessons working with them.
One of the very first things I learned
was
until I can help them realize
that I wasn't asking them to live in

(59:46):
the same psychic pain they were currently feeling
for their permission,
I could not help them. As long as
they thought to themselves, I'm stuck. I'm miserable.
I I if I stay this Yeah. We
just have to white knuckle it. Just white
Yeah. It won't work. They couldn't do what
they needed to
to work their way out of the homesickness,
the sadness, the depression, the anxiety, you know.

(01:00:07):
And so my first task as a mission
present, besides loving them and just let them
letting them know they're okay was to to
have help them have hope. Hope and a
brighter future.
That same principle applies when we're talking about
marital relationships, whether you're married and it's not
working well or you're not married and you
want it to be or whatever your issue
is. Right?
Until we have hope,

(01:00:29):
there's no getting to the next step. Once
we have hope,
then we can open our heart to the
influence of the Lord, of the spirit,
and then God can begin to work magic
that it's not Harry Potter. It's it's grace.
It's the good stuff.
The magic that we ultimately ultimately
cannot get without his help.
And so
helping our our single see that

(01:00:51):
it'll be more wonderful than anything you can
imagine.
And no, you do not have to live
white knuckled now in misery.
In the next life, yay, you get happiness.
Yeah. That's not gonna motivate anyone. Yeah.
Live
relationally
now.
Do everything we can
to draw closer to God

(01:01:13):
and to our brothers and sisters around that
us.
If that doesn't include an eternal ceiling at
this point, okay.
Go do what the majority of the church
is doing.
Live life meaningfully and passionately.
And as you do that, that's where the
doors will open up. Yeah. That's awesome.
Anything we've missed or question or thought or

(01:01:35):
And
I'm sure we've missed something. I'll get the
emails. You might It's all good. Yeah. I
know. I know. One one important concept that
I I hinted at earlier that I would
I would simply reiterate, and that's this concept
that
if you are right now
in a situation where you're not where you
want to be, familially
or merrily or whatever it is,

(01:01:56):
Satan would convince you and I that we
are
irrevocably
broken, that we're just
damaged goods.
God never sees his children as damaged goods.
He just doesn't do that.
If we can help each other, if we
could put our arms around our brothers and
sisters who are feeling lonely
and

(01:02:16):
sad and let sit with them. Let them
share the the difficulty
and and and acknowledge the reality to that.
Then get up and live.
Love them.
If I were talking to bishops and stake
presence,
do everything in your power to help those
that are in your stake that are not
necessarily married or in a family situation or

(01:02:37):
that are married and it's a bitter family
situation or that were married and are divorced.
Help them realize
they're not broken.
The situation may not be good. Don't whitewash
the situation. But
and they might be struggling.
Welcome to mortality. All of us are. Right?
They're not broken. They're in process.

(01:02:58):
As we realize that we're in process, that
creates the concept of hope.
In process means I'm going to live life
everyday relationally. I'm going to love.
I'm going to serve. I'm gonna grow.
That is not a miserable life.
That doesn't deny the fact that someone still
may feel lonely.
That doesn't deny the reality that someone may

(01:03:19):
still feel
the missing
part that comes with I want an eternal
intimate relationship and I'm not in one now.
Again, don't deny that. Don't pretend it's not
a big deal. Just go be happy. Right?
That's not the way it works.
Acknowledge that. But you don't help
by saying, yeah, you are kind of hopeless,
aren't you? There's not much you can do
here. Well, you know, just

(01:03:41):
grin and bear it.
Love that person. Sit with that person. Pray
with that person. Then get off your knees
and walk with that person. Go serve. Go
love.
Encourage that person
to lose themselves
because that's how we find ourselves.
Don't minimize the pain

(01:04:01):
but don't wallow in it. Realize that if
we're in process and we all are. And
by the way, find the happiest married person
you can find, they're in process too. Yeah.
There ain't no such thing as a perfect
being. There's only Christ and he's gone and
you can't marry him. And so it's it's
done. You're you are now an imperfect world
then. Right? And so as a result of
that,
all of us are in process.

(01:04:22):
Yeah. So let's love each other and encourage
each other.
Live well now.
Love it. Oh, go ahead. One more thought.
Because you'd asked about the proclamation. Oh, yeah.
Yeah. Remember that? Yeah. Because that's sometimes can
be, there's going to be some friction there.
Yeah. Tension there that Tension. Like, Oh, maybe
I'll just ignore that until I'm married.

(01:04:42):
Exactly.
You actually asked me I wish we had
like an hour. We don't and I know
we gotta we gotta be quiet here in
a moment. But Yeah.
What can single adults learn from the proclamation?
Is there comfort in the proclamation?
My statement would be,
this is a very technical statement,
oodles and oodles and oodles.
Mhmm. We choose what we're gonna focus on.

(01:05:03):
Do we Satan Satan does not like us.
Sorry. I don't think that's a revelation to
anyone. He's always gonna try and get us
to focus on what we don't have, what
we think we'll never have, and what is
out of our control.
So if we read the proclamation
thing about what don't I have, what don't
I see a possible way of having, and
what do I have no control of getting?

(01:05:23):
That's a depressing document.
Right? What if we read it for what
it contains that we can focus on? All
of a sudden, that document is magic.
Married, single, divorce.
It speaks of a God who's
speaking to his prophets. It speaks to the
fact that he is that we are his
children. It speaks to the fact that we

(01:05:44):
can be
bound to him through sacred ordinances
that he is
desires of living in us. It speaks to
the worth of our very soul. It speaks
to the
the sacredness
of individuals
and relationships.
There are so many beautiful truths.
Don't let Satan

(01:06:05):
pin us in this little box. What can't
I do? What do I think I'll never
have?
And what's out of my control? Whatever you're
asking about those three things, you're guaranteed misery.
So if you look at this and say,
yeah, the family brought me in and says
I should be married and I right. You
can't force anyone right now. So stop pretending.
And if you can't control that,
stop going there.

(01:06:26):
Look at what he's just said
about the the worth of your soul.
That you're a beloved son or daughter of
God. That your destiny is to become like
God. And I can just go on and
on and on, and it's it's rich and
thick. Yeah. It's worth engaging in for sure
no matter your marital status or Exactly. Yeah.
Exactly. Well, I I think we hit the

(01:06:46):
big points. Right? Yeah. That was a great
discussion. And then I'm sure, like I said,
I'll probably get emails to be like, oh,
Kurt, you missed this point in that point.
You should have asked him that. But I
think this is a good you know, we
can't build Rome in one episode.
Yeah. So but this is great. And last
question I have is if you're in a
room full of of bishops, relief study presidents,
other leaders, and you sort of are are

(01:07:06):
done this to some extent, but what final
encouragement
would you give them?
It's a worthy question.
President Oaks,
president Nelson,
and many others have asked us to focus
on two things
that we often think are in
tension with each other.
It goes by a bunch of different names,
but the the one that president Nelson is

(01:07:27):
and president Oaks have used most frequently is
love and law. Mhmm.
If I were speaking to
recent leaders,
Relief Society leaders, young men, young women leaders,
I would say the very first thing you
have to do if you have any hope
of being of help,
you have to sincerely love those that you
serve. This is not rocket science. They could
care less what you think or want or

(01:07:49):
know if they don't feel valued
for where they are. If they don't feel
loved for who they are.
If they don't see that you care.
The old adage, they don't care what you
know until they know how much you care
is is just true. And so it starts
with,
you want a right to try to bless
someone?
Love. So it starts there. But

(01:08:10):
if that's all we do,
to be very frank, we're leaving them helpless.
Oh, they got a good friend in us.
And I'm not in any way indicating that
we should try to be their savior, that
we we should take over for them. But
once they know that they are loved,
then we have the opportunity to say, did
you know that God has something for you
vastly better than you have for yourself?

(01:08:32):
Then we can begin to draw them and
invite them to come under the savior.
As they come under the savior,
the other issues begin to come into perspective.
And so if I were to try to
help my own bishop, my own stake president,
which by the way are great men, it
would be love those that you
have the sacred opportunity to serve and then

(01:08:55):
bring them to Christ.
You might think law bring them to Christ.
Yeah, because because the commandments are how we
are brought to the savior. Don't use the
commandments as a weapon. Don't whack people with
them.
Invite them to come to the savior because
then the savior can do with and for
them
that which no bishop, no stake present, no
friend can ever do.

(01:09:27):
And that concludes this throwback episode of the
Leading Saints podcast.
The end. That's it for this Leading Saints
episode. I encourage you to check out some
of the most popular episodes of the podcast
that we list at the bottom of the
show notes. If you haven't listened to all
of those, do so now. And remember, to
get on the email newsletter list, simply go

(01:09:47):
to leadingsaints.org/fourteen.

(01:10:15):
It came as a result of the position
of leadership which was imposed upon us
by the God of heaven, who brought forth
a restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
When the declaration
was made concerning the only
true and living Church upon the face of
the earth,

(01:10:35):
We were immediately put in a position of
loneliness,
the loneliness of leadership
from which we cannot shrink nor run away,
and to which we must face up with
boldness and courage
and
ability.

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The Doctrine Related to Being Single or Married | An Interview with Michael Goodman

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The Doctrine Related to Being Single or Married | An Interview with Michael Goodman