The Science of Pornography Use | An Interview with Brian Willoughby - Leading Saints Podcast

Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
How do you help someone tell their spouse
that they have secretly been viewing pornography?
Wow. These are tough situations.
Thankfully, one of my favorite and most effective
therapist, Jeff Strewer, put together a presentation about
disclosing betrayal.
Jeff explains how disclosing betrayal can make recovery
and repentance

(00:22):
so much more difficult if it isn't handled
correctly.
This isn't a rip the band aid off
quickly type of situation.
With a better understanding of betrayal, church leaders
can be a strong resource
in helping couples navigate the awful effects of
pornography usage.
You can watch Jeff's entire presentation at no
cost in the Liberating Saints virtual library. Simply

(00:42):
go to leadingsaints.org/fourteen,
and you can sign up for fourteen days
of free access to Jeff's presentation
and the entire library. It's one of my
favorite interviews.
If you wanted further insight into a come
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or get the We Believe app. Tough church

(01:04):
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That's why we exist, to help Latter day
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(01:26):
you found the Leading Saints podcast. We hope
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listened to episodes on the podcast.
Welcome. You're gonna love it.
Alright. We're back for another leading saints episode.
And today we bring the big brains into

(01:47):
the room with Brian Willoughby, who is a
BYU professor in the family sciences and does
a ton of research
about
pornography and the impact of pornography, both in
the religious context and outside the religious context.
I actually heard Brian on an episode of
The Art of Manliness
done by Brett McKay, former guest of of
Leading Saints. And they have this conversation in

(02:08):
a more secular context. And they talked a
lot about this, the dynamics that sometimes the
ways that religion help individuals overcome pornography and
actually the ways that religion can be a
negative impact on, you know, people overcoming pornography.
So we jump into it, everything talking about
what do we need to understand with the
youth experience
when it comes to pornography? How do they

(02:29):
experience it in a way that can be
detrimental? How can we instill hope, get them
past the shame on missions
into life and into adulthood
and, all the science
of pornography, what it does to our brains,
the concept of addiction. Is that a thing?
Is science moving towards a world where actually
sexual addiction will be a diagnosis

(02:51):
that's used? It's so really good topics. This
is one to just get a 2025
update on the science and understanding
of pornography and its detrimental impacts. And what
do we do with it in a religious
context? How can we encourage people and avoid
those negative experiences that some fill in a
religious context? So you're gonna appreciate the episode

(03:11):
for sure. So here's my interview with BYU
professor Brian
Willoughby.
Alright, Brian. So you are I don't know.
Are you the expert, like, researcher when it
comes to all things

(03:31):
pornography, you know, the good, the bad, the
ugly? Or how do you how do you
frame it? I I wouldn't say all things.
Okay. But, yeah, it is is one of
my areas that I spent a lot of
time researching,
particularly in the context of young adults and
close relationships that it's actually where my research
kind of, originates and and where a lot
of my focus has been is what happens
in young adulthood and adolescence

(03:52):
that's leading people to successful families and successful
relationships. And just over the last two decades,
as I was studying that, it became really
clear,
you know, post smartphone that pornography was a
huge part of how
young adults were having to navigate that time
in life and then into their adult relationships.
And so it's been something that's been a

(04:12):
strong focal point of LAME research, just trying
to understand it, trying to understand how to
help people, try to help them
understand it individually, understand it in relationships. Yeah.
And you're at BYU
as a professor. What department are you in?
What type of classes do you teach? Yeah.
So I'm a professor in the school of
family life, which is where we have our
marriage family therapy, family studies, child development majors.

(04:32):
Then I'm also a Wheatley Fellow at the
Wheatley Institute,
which is, BYU's kind of policy
oriented
institution that does research on core institutions, family
being one of them. Okay. So the Wheatley
Institute, that's officially under the BYU umbrella. Yes.
Right? Mhmm. And so they make sure we're
getting good research on
things like pornography

(04:52):
or other family related issues so that, hopefully,
that's influencing our broader culture. Yeah. Exactly. Like
like I said, Wheatley is is focused on
on core institutions in our society. And so
we do family based research as a core
institution, research on religion
as a core institution, and, research on, constitutional
law is another kind of core foundational
piece of society. And so how does that

(05:13):
work? I mean, just generally speaking, like, you
do the Wheatley Institute does research, and then
are you meeting with politicians or lobbyists? Or,
like, how does it make it further down
the road? Yeah. So we do a bunch
of different things. We try to interface with
a a lot of leaders, thought leaders across
the the country and internationally that
are talking and doing work in relevant areas.

(05:33):
And then we also do do research. And
typically, when we do research, we aim that
research towards more public consumption.
And so we do report,
research reports.
We do media interactions
so that people can actually see what the
the latest research is and not just bury
it in an empirical journal that 10 people
in my field might read. Nice. Interesting. That's

(05:55):
very good. And so with your teaching, you
see a lot of, like, future therapists come
through. Is that who you're teaching? Yeah. I'm
I'm on the family study side. And so,
a lot of my students go all sorts
of different directions. Some do become therapists.
Some like to work with families and children,
do educational work. We also get a lot
of pre professional people that wanna go into
medical school or law school that wanna work

(06:15):
with families in those different professions too. And
so I primarily teach our big introduction to
family class, where you can just talk about
family relationships.
And then I also teach our preparation for
marriage class. Nice. So it's a good undergrad
degree where it has all sorts of options
after that. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of cool
things. So, I mean, obviously,
the stigma of pornography is big. I mean,

(06:37):
especially in a religious context. And you've looked
at, like, things both in the context of
religion and outside. Right? And as a Latter
day Saint, that's probably an interesting perspective to
have as well. So Yeah. I mean, where's
a good launching off point with that context?
Well, I I think there's a lot to
say about the religious context that we can
probably get into in a lot of depth
because you're right. That is a really important

(06:57):
conversation to have, both from a research standpoint
because being in a religious culture does change
a lot of the dynamics
in terms of how people feel about their
pornography use, how it affects their relationships,
how much they are open with their spouses
and with with, other people about their pornography
use. And so there's that piece. And then
there's also a lot of research that suggests

(07:19):
that being religious tends to exaggerate some of
the negative effects of of pornography
simply because of some of those interesting kind
of moral incongruence.
I'm doing something that's not only bad for
me, but I feel bad about. And so
it kinda adds a whole another layer to
it. My spouse spouse isn't the only one
mad at me, but now God's mad at
me. Right? Exactly.
So there is a lot to talk about

(07:39):
there too. Although I always hesitate jumping right
into the religion piece because sometimes that gives
the false impression that it's just a religious
issue or it's just an issue if you're
a religious person. When in reality, we have
all this research has come out in the
last couple decades that shows that pornography use
is problematic
and does influence

(08:00):
influence people in a lot of negative ways.
And I think that's another really important topic
to have discussions about to help people
understand what the real effects are of pornography
are, to understand how those effects
differ based on what kind of use you're
dealing with and what that frequency is because
there's a lot of myths and misunderstandings
about thinking that pornography is just kind of
one thing. You either use or have a

(08:21):
problem with pornography or you don't. And the
reality is that there's a whole spectrum of
abuse. President Oaks has talked about that, before
on this topic. And so I think understanding
kind of each pieces of those contexts kinda
help give a full picture to help people
understand both what's happening and then more importantly,
what do I do about it and and
how do I get help? Yeah. So it's

(08:41):
fair to say, like, stepping back out of
the religious context to a broader society, like
because you'll hear it sometimes in in the
secular world of, like, you know, pornography is
not a big deal. If everybody's, you know,
everybody's consensual in the process of the making
it. And, you you know, it actually might
enhance your your sexual life and your marriage
and all these things. And so that's safe
to say that that's been proven that I

(09:03):
mean, generally speaking, pornography is a negative thing.
Yeah. Yeah. As as much as we can
prove anything Yeah. In the social sciences, what's
interesting about the pornography area is that we've
had in the last couple years what are
called meta analysis, which is where we take
a whole bunch of studies that have been
done on the same topic, and we do
kind of a study of those studies to
try to, as close as we can in

(09:24):
social science, come to a conclusion about what
is true, what's actually going on. And as
we've done the those meta analyses, there's been
three key things that have come from them.
One is that pornography tends to be associated
with lower relationship satisfaction.
Two, pornography tends to be associated with lower
sexual satisfaction,
which is a key thing because like you
said, a lot of people have, outside of

(09:45):
religious cultures, oftentimes have the misunderstanding
that pornography could enhance your sex life or
help with things. A lot of sex therapists
sometimes think that and will even prescribe pornography
to a couple and say, hey. This might
be something to help you communicate better about
your wants and desires. But now we have,
like you said, a lot of studies that
show that pornography use is linked to lower
sexual satisfaction.

(10:06):
And the other thing that's come out of
those meta analysis
is linking pornography with aggressive behavior.
Aggressive behavior, particularly towards women. And so we
have kind of those three pillars now in
the research. And obviously, there's nuance, there's complexity,
but there's enough there with adults
to show, I think, that there's fairly compelling
evidence that this is a kind of universal

(10:26):
negative. The one other thing I'll add to,
we don't have meta analysis on these things
yet, but it's been based on some of
my work, that goes past just satisfaction
and looks at things like relationship commitment, relationship
stability.
What's been interesting about that research in the
last couple years is that that's actually where
we've we've seen in early research
some of the strongest negative effects of pornography

(10:47):
that that people adults that use pornography on
a regular basis
have much less stable relationships,
much less commitment. There's a couple studies that
have now come out that suggest that, divorce
proneness
goes way up with people that view pornography.
And so in particular, when it comes to
relationships,
you've got pornography linked to all these negative
relationship outcomes.

(11:08):
And that would be on top of then
the concern of pornography creating compulsive and addictive
behavior, which is also a new thing we
have in the research. Not necessarily new, but
we did have the World Health Organization a
couple years ago officially designate compulsive pornography,
behavior as a
classifiable
mental health disorder. And so they were the
first organization in the world to identify pornography

(11:30):
use as an addictive behavior. So we're we're
kind of getting all these things now across
the last couple decades of research that all
kind of point in the negative direction.
You think is are we a step closer
to because I know what's the, the therapy
book? The diagnosis? The DSM. Yeah. DSM. Like
because right now, the
generally, you know, therapists, you know,
outside of religious therapists are saying, well, it's

(11:52):
not in the DSM that classify pornography as
an addiction. Do you feel like we're getting
a step closer to the DSM reckon recognizing
that? Yeah. It would be very surprising to
me if in the next version, or the
next revision,
if hypersexual disorder, which which this is kind
of an offshoot of because that's the interesting
thing about this is sex addiction still isn't
in the DSM. You can't be diagnosed with

(12:13):
sex addiction, hypersexual disorder. So I think with
the World Health Organization identifying
these types of behaviors is problematic with all
the clinical research that's come out that suggests
that this does act like a behavioral addictive
compulsive disorder like gambling and other things. I'd
be surprised if if we weren't moving in
that direction in the next five years. Oh,
that's interesting. And so on that note, like,

(12:36):
in your research, like, you you talk about
that, obviously, there's clear signs of it being
negative for relationships and mental health. But, like,
is there more and more indication of this
actually doing something to the brain in a
negative way? Like like a drug would like
a hard drug would. So this this is,
I think, where it's really important to talk
about that continuum of use. Because a lot
of people, again, talk about pornography use as

(12:56):
kind of this black or white issue. And
if you struggle with pornography, it's addiction. And
in reality, there's actually two
designations we talk about in the research. There
is that kind of clear, addictive, compulsive
pornography use. Right? There that people are having
a hard time sleeping. They have, you know,
what's called functional impairment, which is they're having
a hard time with their job, with their

(13:18):
relationships
because they have oftentimes not just the behavior,
but the compulsive thinking. The kind of obsessive
thinking about it kind of interferes with their
daily life. And and they almost need it
in order to function? Almost like an alcoholic
where it's like, well, I kind of just
need to be slightly drunk. Most of the
data function. Right? So we do have that
group and I think it's important to recognize
that that group is is fairly smaller. Our
best estimates in fact, I was I was

(13:39):
just reviewing an article that that will probably
come out in the next six months or
so that was, again, trying to collect as
another meta analysis. And it was saying their
best estimate was about ten percent of pornography
users probably fall under this definition. So it's
not a huge percent of it. But addicted.
Ten percent of users fall under that addicted
label. Right. That kind of compulsive use group.

(14:00):
And so we have that group, but then
we also have what a lot of my
colleagues are calling PPU, which is problematic pornographies.
And the idea of of that is that
it's not quite rising to the level of
clinical impairment and addiction and compulsive thinking, but
it's someone who is wanting to stop the
behavior. It's causing distress in their life, whether

(14:21):
that's for religiously reasons or other reasons. You
know, my spouse, my partner's unhappy with it.
They're having a hard time. They can't stop.
They keep coming back to it. And it's,
again, creating problems in their life. And so
we kinda separate those two things. You know,
one is is that full blown kind of
compulsive addiction behavior. One is kinda more the
bad habit causing distress in my life. And

(14:42):
the reason why that distinction is important to
your question is that when we start talking
about brain chemistry changes,
we do have some research that does suggest
that pornography can influence
some of the the connections in our brain
that are tied to dopamine and tied to
to pleasure centers. But that evidence is is
very focused on that group of ten percent.

(15:02):
Right? The true addictive behavior
can have an effect on your brain. Now
it's not the same thing as meth. It's
not the same thing as cocaine. I do
hear those comparisons sometimes. I think the comparison
you brought up is the one I like
a lot, which is alcohol.
Because we see, again, kind of that same
continuum of use with alcohol, where we have
alcoholics that are really struggling and and their

(15:24):
brain chemistry is shifting because they have this
compulsive need to engage in that behavior. And
we see a lot of people that maybe
aren't full blown alcoholics, but struggle with their
drinking. And then they turn to drinking for
emotional relief. They turn to it when their
relationships are struggling. They wanna drink less, but
they can't stop. Right? It's that kind of
pattern that we tend to see. You know,
hard drugs, meth, cocaine, you don't get this

(15:46):
nice gradient. You don't get the person that's
like, yeah, you know, I'd like to stop
using meth as much, but, you know, every
couple months, I kind of fall back into
it. That that's not what this is. Interesting.
And so you get the brain piece with
the addicts, but then with the group that's
struggling, kind of that problematic use, what you
get is less
physiological
in the brain, and it's more cognitive in

(16:08):
the brain. And what I mean by that
is that most of these negative effects of
pornography, we know are based on what's called
scripting,
which is when you consume media, when you
watch something, or when you have interactions in
your life, you learn things. You learn what
to expect in certain situations. And pornography
as a form of media
is feeding you expectations

(16:29):
and scripts about what intimacy is supposed to
be like in relationships.
And what we clearly know from a lot
of research on content and and other things
in mainstream pornography
is that most of the scripts and most
of the expectations I'm getting
are not very conducive to a healthy relationship.
And so now what's happening is that my
expectations about my partner are changing,

(16:49):
my expectations about intimacy are changing, and that
is creating
a difficulty in my relationship to have healthy
relationships.
And then the cycle that can happen is
now I'm frustrated,
unhappy
in my real life relationships.
I'm not feeling good. I now turn to
pornography to feel better is kind of an
emotional coping mechanism
that reinforces all these negative expectations.

(17:12):
I get even more frustrated in my relationship.
And that's the cycle that can happen that
can become really problematic, which is one of
the reasons why we think we see a
lot of these negative relationship outcomes.
Even when someone's not engaging with pornography in
an addictive pattern, there's, you know, couple times
a month, couple times a year, we still
see these negative relationship effects because of that

(17:32):
scripting expectation issue. Yeah. And that scripting expectations
like that because obviously,
explicit pornography content, hardcore pornography goes zero to
a hundred in
a second. So they go really extreme with
the behaviors and and the way they express
sexuality. And so then
that programs
our brain to think, well, that's how it
should be. Like, that's the full fulfillment of

(17:54):
this relationship when it's actually could be very
negative. Yeah. Full fulfillment. Right? Exactly. The way
I kinda describe it to people is that
there's three non normative pieces to mainstream pornography.
It's it's non normative people. They don't look
like most people. Right? It's non normative behavior.
It's engaging in intimate behavior that most people
don't do or don't enjoy
in their normal healthy relationships.

(18:15):
And it's non normative context. It's not a
normal context for intimacy. And when you put
those three things together,
then, yeah, I I'm being fed a lot
of unhealthy expectations. And and particularly when you
put it in the context that most people
get introduced to pornography
in their youth, in their kind of preteen,
early teen years,
which means that for most people, this is
their first experience with intimacy and what they

(18:37):
think intimacy is like. And if I go,
you know, a decade of my life,
maybe without real human interaction when it comes
to sexual intimacy,
and I've been fed for ten years, this
is what it's supposed to look like, this
is what it's supposed to be. And then
I try to be in a real relationship,
you can immediately see how the challenge would
be. Yeah. And I think I mean, a
little bit of left turn here, but you

(18:58):
use the concept of nonnormative of even social
media in general, even it's obviously less stigmatized
of of porn. And, you know, that's the
problem. I'm just looking at cool recipes and
lifestyle bloggers, but feeding your brain of like,
oh, that family goes on vacation every month.
They have a big house. Like, it can
really mess with your mental health that you
and I'm often remind myself of that. Like,

(19:18):
yeah. There's nothing wrong with what you're looking
at, but it is doing something when you're
feeding your brain that. Right? Yes. Yeah. And
especially when it comes to pornography where you're
tying it to sexual expression. Yeah. And, you
know, back to to the brain. A lot
of powerful brain chemicals that that tend to
reinforce some of those things. And really, again,
when you take a step back and you
say, okay, so we've got this relationship piece

(19:39):
and the unhealthy expectations that come from it,
we have the personal distress that it can
cause and the relationship dynamics of just, you
know, hiding and deceit and honesty
and then the addictive components, the potential for
it to become compulsive.
Like I said, that's when you put all
those things together and kind of lay it
out on the table, and sometimes what I
have to remind my colleagues is you have
all these potential issues

(20:01):
and
basically nothing that points in the other direction.
Mhmm. Right? There's no meta analysis out there
that says, here's the good thing that porn
does for you or your relationship.
It's one of the reasons why me and
others, you know, try to talk so much
about it and try to, you know, outside
of religious cultures like ours, where most people
already have this kind of innate sense that
this is a problem and something to avoid,

(20:22):
trying to get that message out, like you
said, to people that say, is this really
a big deal? Does it really matter? Helping
them understand that pornography and for anyone in
any context is a risk. Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah.
It's fascinating.
So as I've, like obviously, I've done hundreds
of interviews about this topic to help church
leaders better understand these dynamics, and I've been

(20:42):
really surprised about the stigma around the word
addiction. Mhmm. I mean, I think it's
best practice. Like, you never want someone to
label themselves. I am an addict.
Just, you know, any identity statement is maybe
more powerful than we want it to be.
But, I mean and you said, like, it's
a ten percent. It's if if they're you
know, addiction is happening, it's a ten percent

(21:03):
of of those. Is there anything else we
should be aware of of just this concept
of addiction? Yeah. I think you're right. Is
is I do think there has been kind
of a a pendulum swing in the last
ten years in church culture, at kind of
all levels. That's been kind of a a
reaction understanding
that for a while, we were probably too

(21:24):
far on one side. Right? We're kind of
everything was addiction. Mhmm. And, you know, every
bishop and every stake president that was meeting
with a a young man was going, k.
12 step program, go see a therapist.
And as, again, as research has kind of
matured and as some of the clinical work
has matured,
we do understand on the one hand that,
like you said, the labeling of addiction
is something we need to be careful about.

(21:44):
There was a really influential study that came
out about seven or eight years ago that
was showing
that the label of labeling myself as a
pornography
addict was actually more predictive for most people
of depression
than the actual porn use.
And so,
again, I don't think we get rid of
it. Right? There's we don't need to pendulum
swing the other direction.

(22:05):
But I think the appropriate use is important.
And and as church leaders
are working with youth and adults,
one is understanding that that is a clinical
designation and that they should probably be careful
about labeling someone one way or the other.
But then two, I think, like I said,
is recognizing that even if someone isn't in
this ten percent of compulsive addictive use, they're
in, you know, what my estimate is about

(22:27):
thirty or forty percent of of porn users
that have that problematic distressing use,
that there's still a lot of resources in
need for intervention for that group too. So
it's not that you're either an addict and
you need help or you're not and deal
with it. There's resources that need to be
happening
on all levels and and sometimes things like
12 step programs, group therapy, even a therapist

(22:48):
can help
across that spectrum.
But I think understanding that there is a
spectrum
can help. And I think particularly in a
church context, as a church leader, it's helping
people or helping be, aware of when people
are using the label to be defeatist.
Mhmm. Right? That when I'm working with a
youth or working with an adult, and I'm
I'm sensing that they've labeled themselves as an

(23:10):
addict, and they're using that label to say,
what's the point? Mhmm. Why should I bother
moving forward? I'm never gonna get past that.
You know, obviously, in the context of of
the gospel, we know nothing can't be overcome
with the atonement. But I think being very
vigilant about that and working with whether it's
LDS Family Services or other resources with someone

(23:31):
you're working with to help them understand that
that's a clinical designation. It's not something a
bishop decides. It's not something they decide. They
should be working with mental health professionals to
decide what this looks like. And then, like
I said, being aware of where that label
might be interfering with someone's ability to grow.
Yeah. And sort of the way I've sort
of tried to frame it is that if

(23:51):
someone goes to that, you know, labeling that
life experience as an addiction, like, just pivoting
as sounds like
what you're saying is that you need Jesus
Christ to overcome this. Right? And if you're
like, no. It's even beyond that. Well, maybe
you're misunderstanding what Jesus Christ can do for
you. Right? And
because we all need to come to a
place where, like, I'm broken and helpless without
Jesus Christ. And if you if you need
to label that experience that this is an

(24:13):
addiction I'm struggling with, then great. But if
if it serves you well, but to be
trapped by it, I think that's the the
red flag. Right? Yeah. Because because either way,
like I said, if we get right down
to the science for a second, is that
a compulsion is tied to brain chemistry. Right?
Is that my
neurons in my brain have wired in a
way where where basically my brain's decided,
don't worry about making this decision. I'll make

(24:35):
it for you. Right? It's the same thing
that happens when we get hungry, when we
get thirsty. That's where a compulsive thought comes
from. I get this obsessive thinking because my
brain's trying to be like, don't think about
it. Just do it. And so there's a
physiological
component to it, but that doesn't mean, like
you said, that I don't need the savior.
You know, just like if I was overcoming
a chronic illness,

(24:55):
chronic pain, right, is that the atonement
is all encompassing.
It's about mental struggles, emotional struggles, sin,
physical pain. Right? The savior experienced all of
our physical pain in that moment in a
way that we can't comprehend.
And so even for the addict
with that brain chemistry piece, there is an
element where the atonement in Jesus Christ can

(25:17):
help through that and help the healing process.
And part of that is helping with the
hope that my brain can change because we
also have research on that, by the way.
That with behavioral addictions, with the right intervention,
with a lot of behavioral therapy and other
things, that the brain is a
marvelous
organism. Right? Or an organ.
God created it that way. That it can

(25:38):
change one way. It can change the other
way. And so having that hope via the
atonement in Jesus Christ that, hey. My brain
can get better. Yeah. And I can get
better if I'm an addict. And if I'm
not quite there and it's more of, like
I said, the distress and the bad habit,
and I'm having a hard time coping with
stress in my life, and I keep turning
to this. It's the same thing is that

(25:59):
I'm turning to Christ, and I'm turning to
the savior
to give me hope that I can find
other outlets
rather than pornography, that I can use resources
and social resources around me to find love
and connection and build that love and connection
with my heavenly father and with Jesus Christ.
And that that can give me the strength
to turn right when maybe I keep turning

(26:20):
left. Yeah. Let's shift into the context with,
like, youth,
especially, you know, along these lines of using
terms like addiction.
I mean, in the youth context, I just
can't especially with the immature brain that's still
developing and it's, like, it's going through, like,
daily identity crises, right,
where it's just never helpful
to put a youth in that context

(26:41):
immediately of, like, oh, this is an addiction.
We need to address this as an addiction
when in reality, it's just adolescence. And, I
mean, the mortality they live in in 2025
is overwhelming. You know? So what what else
come to mind as far as understanding is
the context of youth? Yeah. Is I think
there's a couple key things there. And and
and one is, I think you're alluding to
that when it comes to pornography, there's two,

(27:04):
I think, things for church leaders to understand
when they're working with youth.
One is the normative context of this. And
and what I mean is even in LDS
context and cultures,
exposure rates to pornography by the time someone's
18 are almost a %, particularly for our
our young men. And so what that means
as a bishop or a state president or
a young men's leader is that most of

(27:25):
my young men are gonna come across pornography
at some point while I'm over them as
a stewardship.
And I think that changes a little bit
of the context because instead of as a
church leader, kind of crossing my fingers and
hoping I can get them all through it,
it says I have to be proactive.
I have to be proactive in the lessons,
in the conversations.
And again, that doesn't mean in every youth

(27:46):
interview, I'm drilling every single young man like,
hey. Here's the 10 porn questions I'm gonna
ask you. That's that's a it's not a
good recipe to be on friendly terms with
all the parents. Right. But again, if I
just have that context that, hey, even if
they're not talking to me, even if they
haven't come to me, you know, when I'm
dealing with my priests, when I'm dealing with
my 17, 18 year old young women, most

(28:06):
of them have seen porn. Many of them
are probably using porn on a regular basis.
So what am I doing
to help them
shape their lives, turn to Christ, make sure
it doesn't become a lifelong habit? I think
that's one important context. And the other important
context is recognizing that porn is a very
scary thing in all religious cultures because

(28:27):
sex and chastity
is a scary thing. Mhmm. And so anything
kind of connected to that. Right? And we
understand in a gospel context, and this is,
I think, an appropriate thing we teach our
youth that violations of the law of chastity
are a really serious thing. I do think,
and this is another topic we can get
into at some point, sometimes we forget the
other side of that equation, which is it's
a really serious thing so that you can

(28:48):
have this beautiful,
wonderful, bonding, connective sexual relationship with your spouse
someday. We forget the positive message.
But when we understand that there's a lot
of fear and anxiety,
we understand that when I'm dealing with or
talking to a youth about this topic and
they've come to me and they've confessed,
that
there is already going to be a lot

(29:09):
of fear in that conversation.
Not just fear of talking to a bishop
about something or a stake president or another,
leader, but fear of what does this mean
for my future? What does this mean for
my family? What does this mean for my
even ability to anyone wanna date me someday?
There's Or go on a mission. Right? Or
go on a mission. There's gonna be all
this fear. And so I think understanding that
should help a lot of church leaders

(29:30):
as they're having these conversations with youth, make
sure that the conversation is always positive. And
this is a thing I talk to parents
about as well because I think it goes
both ways, is that
conversations about pornography should not be
scary conversations. I mean, they're going to be
innately Mhmm. With the kids because of the
anxiety they're gonna feel. But what can I
do as an adult leader, as a parent,

(29:53):
to make the conversation
positive, to make them walk out of that
conversation
feeling better about themselves, better about the relationship
they have with me,
particularly when it comes to pornography? Because there's
not a lot of topics that are scarier
for you to talk to a leader about
than that. And so if and I talk
to bishops and and other church leaders about
this sometimes that, you know, in that first

(30:13):
conversation
where maybe the youth kind of drops the
bomb in an interview and other contacts of
like, hey. Yeah. I've looked at porn.
Recognize they're testing you. Right? They wanna see
how you react.
And, really, the main thing you want them
to walk away with is not this wonderful
plan you've laid out to them about how
to avoid it in the future and have
all the answers, but you want them to
walk away saying, I could talk to that

(30:34):
person again. Yeah. I could come back to
that person again about that. If you've done
that, you've done your job in the first
conversation. Yeah. Yeah. And almost this feeling of
I I made this a wrong way to
say it, but almost like a shrug like,
oh, yeah. So what? Like, almost like this
isn't a big this isn't a hard thing
to talk about. I can talk about it.
Like, tell me more about that. Right? And
and I think that creates that safety that's
that's needed. And it it's finding that balance.

(30:56):
You know, when I do firesides and other
things with youth or with church leaders, I
always start with I tend to I like
to throw out a lot of quotes from
our church leader, our general church leaders about
pornography
that are no holds barred, no question asked.
This is really bad. Yeah. You lose the
Holy Ghost, you lose access to priesthood power,
you lose your connection with God. It is
really, really, really bad. Right? And I start

(31:16):
that way to then say and we talk
about a lot of things like that. Right?
And if I watch certain movies, I lose
connection to God and the Holy Ghost. If
I start swearing, I lose connection to the
Holy Ghost. I lose priesthood power. If I,
you know, have a little sip of coffee
because my friend is bugging me, hey. I
wanna know what a what a frappuccino tastes
like. I lose the Holy Ghost. I I
there's all these things, but with pornography,

(31:39):
it feels so much heavier. And so we
have to find that balance between, yes, it's
a sin. It's good that if if I'm
your bishop, it's good that you came and
talk to me about this so I can
help you with the repentance process
because you need to repent.
And you need to come back to God
and reestablish that connection.
But to your point,
we should be doing that about all sorts

(31:59):
of things. Right. This shouldn't feel like it's
five times heavier or harder or bigger to
our youth because
the reality is this is the most likely
thing that our youth are gonna do
that are sinful. It it is the you
know, unless you wanna kinda go into, like,
the where is that line with swearing and
some of those kind of things. Yeah. But

(32:20):
in terms of their baptismal
and priesthood covenants that our youth have made,
this is by far the most likely thing
that they're gonna do
that they need to repent of. Mhmm. And
so, again, I get back to being normative.
Right? Normative doesn't mean healthy. It doesn't mean
you diminish
that this is a a big deal when
it comes to my spirituality and my covenants,

(32:40):
but it it needs to be done in
a context that this is just like all
these other mistakes that we make. And what
that does on this topic is it helps
youth not hide because when they hide,
that's when they're much more likely to develop
that negative compulsive pattern over a decade into
adulthood.
And now this isn't just something that, you

(33:01):
know, had a couple issues with when I
was a youth and I talked to my
bishop, talked to my parents, got past it,
was never an issue.
Now instead, I'm a 20, 30 year old
with two decades of struggling with this trying
to decide, do I tell my spouse? Do
I not? We just moved. Do I wanna
talk to this bishop about it because the
last guy took my temple recommend? You know?
So you get this whole kind of thing

(33:21):
that I think we we're not gonna avoid
all of that. There's still gonna be a
group that struggles with it. But I do
think we can avoid a lot of it
if we just try to keep those conversations,
like you said, light, positive,
connected to core gospel principles. Yeah. Like, the
the buzzword that keeps coming is that normalization
of things. Like, we're not normalizing necessarily, like,
pornography use or that it's not a big

(33:42):
deal, but we're normalizing sin, which hopefully normalizes
repentance. Right? Mhmm. We're all sinning. We're all
repenting. Yeah. So what does that look like
for you? Let's talk about that. Right? Yeah.
Yeah. That's powerful. Anything about, like because, you
know, shame
is a big component in this, and but
shame can feel very abstract at times. I
mean, how how do you articulate the concept
of shame or or what's what's happening there?

(34:02):
So it's I I like talking about this
concept because we we've got every once in
a while, like, I know I think a
lot of research is cool that other people
don't. But I I do think this is
a topic. Such a professor. I know. Well,
we have some research that I think most
people will think is cool. Okay. So we
actually have some social science research now on
this topic and a couple others
that separates the idea of guilt and shame.
Mhmm. And the idea is is that guilt

(34:25):
is when I feel bad
in a way that motivates me.
Shame is when I feel bad in a
way that demotivates me. That's great. And I
really like that distinction in the gospel context
because we do talk a lot about avoiding
shame and don't shame people and don't shame.
But then sometimes there's a pushback and said,
but aren't we supposed to feel bad about
sin? Aren't we supposed to feel bad about

(34:46):
things? And so I think this is actually
a a great lesson that a bishop or
other, you you know, woman's president could do
is the difference between
godly guilt
and earthly shame. And help youth understand
that when we make mistakes, what Satan wants
you to feel is shame. He wants you
to feel like you're not good enough for
God. That you can't be fixed. That you

(35:07):
shouldn't come to Christ and use the atonement
because what's the point? That's what shame does.
Like I said, it demotivates us. It makes
us feel like we are just bad people.
And we know that's what the adversary wants
us to feel. God wants us to feel
guilt when we do something bad because we
want to be better. We want to live
up to our covenants. We want to be
like Christ asked us to be. We want

(35:28):
to be perfect even though we know we
can't. And so when we feel bad with
an eternal perspective
and understand that because of the atonement, because
God and Christ make up any deficiency that
I have,
that even though I feel bad and I've
made a mistake, I can get better. I
can change. I can become more like God.
I can do better next time. When we

(35:50):
feel guilt in that way, like I said,
it motivates us. I I think it helps
us understand the sacrament better and engage with
the sacrament as an ordinance in in a
stronger and healthier way, and it helps
us build that relationship with Christ and build
that relationship with God. And so I I
think that
doctrinal distinction
is a really helpful way to think about
it from a church leader perspective in terms

(36:12):
of lessons and firesides and even one on
one conversations
is to help people understand that and really
ask a key question, I think, in a
lot of youth discussions is when you feel
really bad. Right? When I've got a youth
that might be in tears and coming to
me with this is to ask the follow-up
question of, k. I you know, you're feeling
really sad. You're feeling all these negative feelings.

(36:33):
What does it make you want to do
next? What's the next step for you? And
if you get a youth that's saying, I
don't know. I feel helpless.
Then let's have a conversation about the adversary
and how he wants you to feel this
way and how he can feel different. If
it's it makes me want to do better.
It makes me frustrated because I I'm I'm
mad at myself and I want to do
better next time. Great. That's how you should
feel. Yeah. Let's talk about how that can

(36:54):
be part of a healthy repentance process. That's
cool. I like that. My mind just goes
to, like, you go throughout the scriptures and
find stories where in one instance, where did
an individual actually become motivated after that mistake,
whether it was Nephi or, you know, Alma
the younger where, like, actually, that shifted them
into a direction where they motivated them in
a positive direction that that was maybe there

(37:17):
there's no shame there or, you know, it'd
be worth exploring
that. Anything about, like, as as as a
church leader, it's easy
to get hyper focused on the behavior,
like, when we're talking about about going on
a mission. Right? And sometimes leaders will default
to this, like, we want six months of
sobriety before we even begin to talk about
you considering a mission and things like that.

(37:37):
And there's a lot of shame in that
as well. Anything come to mind as far
as helping people overcome it?
Because, you know, we want them to be
prepared, but we also know, like, it's a
tough world we live in, and we kinda
just need to move on with these good
things. And sometimes the mission
is just the context of that mission. Being
in the service, daily service can pull them
out of this compulsivity.

(37:58):
Yeah. Two things come to mind that are
kinda connected.
One is, I I think, a really critical
question or series of questions that church leaders
can ask in these kind of situations
is to not fixate, like you said, on
the behavior in terms of, okay. Like, give
me this list of, like, every video you
watched and every time it's happened. You know,
sometimes that context can be helpful in terms
of understanding the continuum, like we said, of

(38:20):
of behavior.
But getting more into the why and understanding
that
there's a lot of reasons why youth and
adults turn to pornography. And and sometimes it
is just sexual attraction, and I was on
social media, and I saw this, and it
led here and led here and led there.
But there's a lot of other reasons. Sometimes
it's very emotional. Right? As I was I

(38:41):
was sad, I was frustrated. This is a
coping mechanism. Sometimes it can be anxiety based.
It can be stress relief. Sometimes, you know,
particularly with adults, but sometimes with with young
adults too and and and youth, it can
be relationship based. Like, hey. I've, you know,
been dating my girlfriend for a year and
then, you know, we started kissing and and
I got frustrated with her. And so then
I turned this direction, or even we got

(39:01):
in a fight, and I turned this direction.
And asking that that question of why
can help the next piece, which is what
do we do? Right? And, obviously, bishops and
state presidents have that mantle to receive
spiritual godly revelation about things like how long
till this happens.
But in the context then of giving counsel

(39:22):
of here's some advice in the meantime of
things that I think will help you avoid
this behavior,
that can really differ based on the motivation
and the why. Right? And if I have
a youth that as I'm talking to them
about this, it becomes really clear that, like,
yeah, like, when I'm having a bad day
at work or with my parents, that's when
these thoughts come
is great. Now let's talk about what counsel

(39:44):
I can give you to find other outlets
for those negative thoughts or some of the
mood stuff. If it's stress, how can we
get better stress relief? If it is sexual
attraction, let's talk about that. Right? Because each
one of those, we're really starting to talk
about what are called triggers.
Right? What are the triggers
that starts my mind on this loop? And
and then this is similar for compulsive use

(40:05):
or problematic use or really any use. Like,
even a youth that's like, hey. It happened
three times last year. It happened twice last
year. You know, that that's even further along
that continuum.
You know, we have this very basic principle
in social science that thought precedes behavior. That
before you do something, you're almost always thinking
about it. Like I said, it's one that's
kind of unique about addiction is it's kind

(40:27):
of short wires that thinking process. You start
doing stuff, which is why it feels so
helpless as an addict. But for most youth,
like I said,
they oftentimes and if you talk to anyone
that that struggle with pornography will tell you
that, yeah, like, what happened is this was
the trigger for me. I started thinking about
this. I started thinking about this. And then
over the course of an hour or two
or six hours,

(40:48):
I ended up here. And so a lot
of times, the best advice, church leaders, and
it's the same sort of advice that a
lot of commissions will be giving people, is,
like I said, identify what the triggers are
and then redirect.
And so helping
understand the why
can help give more specific counsel on the
what to do in the future. And then,
like you said, that can also help them

(41:10):
put some parameters and some more context to
k. You know, here's what I wanna do
with temple attendants. Here's what I wanna do
with your mission to help give people some
clear skills. Because I think what that avoids
is the what what I sometimes call the
holding our breath remedy, which is, k. I've
got a youth. I've got a 17, 18
year old young man. He wants to go
on a mission. We had our first interview.

(41:31):
He disclosed porn. So I said, okay. Like,
let's go through six months
before we submit papers and see how we
go. If there's nothing attached to that of
and then here's how we're gonna try to
change things. Mhmm. All I'm doing is telling
that young man to, like I said, hold
your breath. Hold your breath and try to
get to your mission. And then there's a
whole another thing, I think, with mission sometimes
of like and then you're gonna be on
your mission, and your phone's gonna be locked

(41:53):
down, and it's not gonna be an issue,
which we know is not the case at
all. Instead of, like I said, having the
mentality of I've got this 17, 18 year
old, I can be an instrument in God's
hands
to help them build better coping skills. That's
not even just gonna help when it comes
to pornography.
It's gonna
help with their marriage. It's gonna help them
as a father or a mother. It's gonna

(42:14):
help them with their work and their job
because there's gonna be a lot of situations
where they're gonna be stressed or depressed or,
you know, whatever it is, and they're gonna
need good coping skills.
Yeah. That's really helpful. And then because there
there's and so what I'm learning is just
being a don't jump to too many conclusions
as far as what that means when they
disclose pornography use. Ask more questions of why

(42:35):
because there's probably on one side of the
spectrum of, you know, kids are just curious
and they had to have a computer at
their hand to just maybe ask questions and,
again, not the ideal scenario or form in
which to learn about sexuality. But and then
it's, you know, here and there, it was
but it was more of just, like, on
a more curiosity scale. And then there's others
who are like, wait a minute. You're like,

(42:55):
you're using this to cope with life to
survive another
day. Like, that's a that's a much different
circumstance.
And often, like, as I'm raising kids
and my kids will watch these
in the future and be like, wow. This
this guy really messed up. But part of
me is like, you know, we it's so
easy to get worried about kids, about mistakes,
and even, you know, I don't quite yet

(43:15):
have teenagers, but it's like, you know, screen
time, which, you know, isn't ideal and but
it happens. And I should probably I probably
allow it too much or whatever, but I
kinda feel like just the nature of them
doing it isn't necessarily gonna perpetuate this terrible
habit in the future. Just the nature of
maturing into adulthood, our brains develop and then
become more aware of, like, actually, I don't

(43:37):
feel good when I'm just looking at a
screen all day. I'm gonna go for a
walk more. You know, I'd like, it kinda
fixes itself a little bit. And so as
a father, I'm sort of taking a lot
some of the remove some of that shame
saying, like, you know what? This will probably
work out. Of course, I'm gonna, you know,
reach for the ideal, but it's not all
gonna be on me if this doesn't work
out. And so with those youth, it's like,
a lot of this just kinda goes away

(43:58):
as they age or they get a better
grip on it unless there's this extreme coping
mechanism. It's like, sounds like you need some
more resources here. Right? Is that fair? Yeah.
And it it it like you said, is
it can change the context of the conversation
and I think allow the conversation to have
a lot of really positive effects. Like like
you said, as as a parent,
you know, as I'm talking to my kids
about this, which parents should be doing too,

(44:20):
is I'm gonna get all that same variation
and understanding the context. So I've got two
young adults and two teenagers now. Mhmm. And,
like, for one of my kids, for example,
and I guess a little bit of context
here back to what I was saying before
is one thing I tell parents is when
you're talking to your kids about this, don't
ever
ask, have you seen porn? It's more when
you see porn. Yeah. Like, it's gonna happen.

(44:41):
And so that's the message I've given to
all my kids. And and one of my
kids came to me at one point and
said, hey, you know, dad, I was scrolling
through social media. I clicked on this ad.
It looked like a cool product and, oh,
I was on a porn site. Uh-huh. And
that led to about a week and a
half of kind of curiosity.
And
what I was able to do, one, is
I was able to kind of intervene very

(45:03):
quickly because my kids had this context of
this isn't something to necessarily hide and something
I can go talk to my parents about.
But two, because it was more of an
accidental
curiosity thing, it led to to what I
hope was a really good conversation about attraction
first Mhmm. And how, hey, God has designed
our bodies to have sexual attraction, and that

(45:24):
is a God given thing that is meant
to help you in your marriage
connect with your spouse in these very powerful
ways. So that's a good thing. You're not
understanding kinda what that is and that it
doesn't have to be a scary thing. But
now let's talk about what Satan wants you
to do with that. And now let's talk
about the context of what you've seen in
pornography and how that's not connected to this

(45:44):
view of intimacy and sexual connectedness
that is sacred and special and symbolic of
the the sealing ordinance that you can have
with a spouse. And so so now I'm
using that as an opportunity
to teach these other principles. And I think
back in a youth leadership context,
you know, to put that in a different
way, as a bishop, I think sometimes when

(46:05):
a when a bishop or another church leader
gets a youth that confesses pornography, there's this,
like, oh, no. Like, oh, no. You know,
you're you're one of those now. Instead of
having the mindset of great, think about all
the youth that a bishop interacts with that
will never tell that bishop really anything. Like
every interview and semi annual interview is like,
yep. I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. Now

(46:26):
I've got this youth
that we can use this as an opportunity
to really understand
the gospel, understand Jesus Christ in your relationship
with him,
understand in a very real way the atonement.
This is a great opportunity for me as
a youth leader to help this youth have
a very real
experience with God. That's amazing. That's great. I

(46:47):
wanna seize on the opportunity to have those
kind of discussions.
Use this as an opportunity to reinforce those
principles, to build their testimony,
and then point out, you know, the, hey.
You know? Yeah. We're not it's not great
that you looked at porn, but now that
we've gone through this process, aren't we kinda
happy that you have this experience? Journal about
it. Learn. Teach your other youth about this.

(47:08):
You know? And and and I think we're
not quite there. I'd love to get in
the context in a culture
where, you know, in a youth lesson or
in a fast and testimony meeting, a youth
can get up in front of other youth
and say, yeah. I struggle with porn for
the last six months, but I used the
atonement and I got past it, and I
just wanna testify of the reality of the
savior. Mhmm. Think about how powerful that would

(47:30):
be to the other youth in the room.
Again, we're not there yet. I haven't seen
it, but it'd be a really powerful thing
if we can get there. Yeah. And I
I really appreciate that that reframing of because
there is, like, as a from a parent
context, you know, you're not I know I'm
supposed to be talking
about, you know, sex with my kids and
getting them educated and healthy conversations on and
on. It's often just hard to, like, broach

(47:52):
that topic at times. It's like, well, you
know, that and we all remember. I mean,
some of us had that awkward, you know,
drive to wherever where the dad suddenly brings
up this, you know, like, oh, man. This
is what we're talking about. But to see
it like, oh, great. They've come to me.
Now this is we have a stage to
talk about this and lean in. And even
whether that's a church leader or a youth
leader or a parent,

(48:13):
great. Jump at that opportunity. It's a it's
a great opportunity. Yeah. And like I said
earlier, I think the really important context for
church leaders and parents is to understand that
the way the world has changed in the
last two decades makes this conversation
a necessity.
And it makes it one that has to
be different than than, like you said, how
it's been done in generations past, which is

(48:34):
that awkward,
gonna have a quick conversation.
And get everything else. Never talk about it
again. Like I said, if you look at
just our stats on our kids, that the
average age that kids see porn for the
first time is 10, 11, 12. That's way
sooner than most parents understand and certainly earlier
than most people are having conversations.
And then like I said, almost all youth

(48:54):
will
see or start to use porn regularly by
the time they're 18 even in a religious
context. It just has to do with how
accessible it is. That our kids have phones,
they have the Internet, they have social media,
they will see porn. It's just inevitable.
And so parenting today, one of the shifts
I think of modern parenting is that I
have to now have

(49:15):
regular conversations
with my kids about this. It's just part
of being a healthy parent who monitors their
kids' behavior
is understanding
that this is gonna happen. And if I
don't,
I'm allowing
the world
and social media and the Internet to dictate
the messages that my kids get around intimacy.
Yeah. That's really helpful.

(49:36):
Some random questions as far as research shows
is is there any evidence that consuming
pornography, you know, just like, drugs. Right? You
want more and more of a hit type
of thing. Like, is it does is it
progressive as far as the severity of
of, you know,
the the type of porn and even into
illegal types of porn? Yeah. So we do

(49:56):
have some research on this and it goes
back to a term I used before about
risk, that pornography is a risk behavior.
And
because of that, when we look at this,
kind of trajectory,
we see different trajectories. Right? So like most
things, it's not one thing for every person.
So it's not that every person that looks
at porn is going to have this kind
of escalating pattern. We tend to see three
groups. One group is what we kind of

(50:18):
call our dabbler group, which is kind of
the, like, on and off again pattern. Like,
I look at porn. I'm curious. I do
it for a week or two, and then
I stop.
That is kinda one group that kind of
just dabbles and it becomes either a a
pattern of dabbling or something that they maybe
experiment with in in their adolescent years, and
then it goes away. So we didn't know
there's a group that's like that. There's what

(50:39):
we call an experimenter group where it follows
a very similar trajectory as other
risk taking behaviors in adolescence where we see
this kind of quick escalation through teenage years,
peaks around early young adulthood twenty twenty three,
kind of early twenties, and then it starts
to come down. So we see that group.
And then we see a group that is
this kind of escalating quick and they stay

(51:00):
high. I mean, that's typically our group that's
kind of in that problematic use, compulsive use
group. You know, those three groups are the
most common patterns we see. Obviously, there's a
lot of individual trajectories.
But I think there's two key conclusions from
that. One is is that
no. Not everyone that looks at porn is
gonna become an addict. There's not a lot
of research to suggest that. But the better

(51:20):
way to say that is anyone that looks
at porn has the risk of becoming an
addict. Mhmm. Because
whether you end up in that escalating group
that now struggles with this rest of your
life is gonna be based on a combination
of personality,
brain chemistry,
social environment,
things that you're never gonna be able to
look at yourself and say, k. I know
for sure I'm not gonna be that person.

(51:40):
Mhmm. You don't know, which is why it's
a risk and and and why there should
be, you know, getting in the policy side,
I think a lot of efforts to help
filter pornographic material away from kids
because we don't know how many kids could
fall into that trap and really affect their
adult relationships.
That's one side. In terms of content,
again, kind of two things that come from

(52:01):
the research.
There's not a lot of evidence that suggests
that when someone gets into and and heavily
uses pornography
that, eventually, they'll fall into illegal child porn.
Yeah. I hear that a lot. Like, you
know, if you watch porn enough, you're gonna
end up being a child abuser or things
like that. There's very little research that suggests
that's the case. Having said that,
what is

(52:22):
another important
fact in that research though, is that part
of that I think is because
most mainstream pornography
in terms of content is already super problematic.
So yes, I might not be falling into
underage child porn or other forms of illegal
porn, But we know that the vast majority
of pornography out there in in these mainstream
sites oftentimes show high aggression towards women, like

(52:45):
I said earlier. Mhmm. A lack of consent,
a lot of problematic behavior and abusive behavior.
So it's it's less about how it doesn't
escalate. It's more just as soon as you're
there, it's there. Yeah. And you're already consuming
a lot of really problematic content. You know,
this idea of, you know I'm gonna go
back to the eighties and nineties because I
I think there's some interesting, important historical context
to understand. Right? Is that you go back
kind of pre Internet and pre Is

(53:07):
that you go back kind of pre Internet
and pre smartphone.
There was a little bit more of this
sense of kind of this escalation
from my friend found this magazine in a
gutter under my dad's bed, and we're passing
it around to, Okay now I'm now I'm
watching Cinemax late at night kind of softcore
stuff and now I'm getting into the hardcore
stuff there was a little bit more of
that escalation because you had to seek it

(53:28):
out now it's presented to you And like
I said, immediately when I'm on a pornographic
website, these two base sites,
I'm immediately presented with all this very violent,
nonconsensual,
problematic content. It's just kind of there. And
so even when I say it doesn't escalate
into a lot of illegal stuff, that doesn't
mean that it's all nice soft core consensual,

(53:50):
you know, romantic porn. It's very much problematic
content. Yeah. And we just it
accelerates a lot quicker because, I mean, finding,
you know, the magazine back in the day,
it wasn't a video, you know, and, and
the video, I had just a whole nother
layer to it that it makes them even
more problematic. So, and it just, and that's
the interesting thing. You know, you talk about,

(54:12):
you know, the old boomers talk about, oh,
back in my day, I had to go
seek it out. And then our demographic is
kinda like, well, yeah, now anybody can get
it. But now we're in this phase of,
like, no. It is aggressively coming for you,
and it it will
put itself in front of you. And so
how are you gonna respond type of thing?
Yeah. And again, from a parent and church
leader perspective
is understanding,

(54:32):
you know, everything you just said, but then
understand it. Like I said, most pornographic websites
are tube based sites just like YouTube, and
they're based on algorithms, which means that not
only is it right there in my face,
as soon as I start clicking around once
or twice, it knows who I am, it
knows what I'm clicking on, and it starts
feeding
more and more of the same stuff. Yeah.

(54:53):
Interesting.
Any other with your,
the, you know, research you geek out on,
is there any other factoid or concept or
dynamic Evan asked about that we were mentioning
to this audience?
I think this is slightly off tangent but
related, and it's it's something I'm talking more
and more about, and and elder Bednar just
mentioned it in a youth devotional. And so
I I think it's it's relevant to bring

(55:14):
up. We talk a lot about AI
changing our world, and we're just starting to
see a big shift in our youth and
young adults
in this area around AI. You know, we
talk a lot about how AI changes technology
and and things, but one of the things
that's really started to happen in the last
two to five years
is a huge uptick in how youth and
young adults and adults are using AI companion

(55:36):
platforms.
So these are generative AI platforms
that are meant to simulate romantic partners that
almost always have an explicit sexual component to
them.
Where where now and the reason I bring
it up is because it's it's kind of
the next iteration, the next step in these
things we've talked about that we were just
talking about about personalized pornography.

(55:56):
That now
I'm not just getting sucked into an algorithm.
Now I have a platform
where I can customize the content. I can
tell it exactly what I want this person
to look like.
They talk to me in a very real
way. What is kind of brought back is,
again, back to those generational differences is that,
you know, a a lot of sexual content
inappropriate sexual content for youth twenty, thirty, forty

(56:19):
years ago was very imaginative, which means, like
you said, I got a picture. I got
kind of put the story in my mind
to it. And then we kind of move
to it's just in my face. I'm just
watching the video. It's there. This the, you
know, the whatever content is in my face.
Now AI is bringing and merging those two
worlds together where now I can have a
what feels like a very real conversation, even

(56:40):
a phone conversation,
sexual conversation on the phone with someone that's
whatever I want. Whatever fantasy I want, I
can tell it. And now I can also
get the pictures and the videos to go
along with that. And so between these AI
companion platforms and AI generated pornography,
I think this is something, like I said,
elder Bednar just kind of sent the first
warning sign a couple months ago to youth

(57:01):
to say, be aware and be wary of
this. I think church leaders also need to
start
being aware of this, that this is the
next thing that's gonna come after our youth
is these AI generative platforms that are just
gonna make everything we've talked about today a
lot more challenging to cope with and probably
the effects a lot more, negative. Wow. Coming
to a bishop's office near you, unfortunately. Yeah.

(57:22):
Oh, wow. And I'm sure it's it's already
manifested of and it starts so innocent. Right?
I'm like, no. I just find friendship in
this
artificial,
you know, being out there and and that
they're progressive. So well, this has been really
good and helpful. Any other point you wanna
hit before we wrap up? No. I don't
think so. Yeah. Yeah. Well, cool. I appreciate

(57:43):
your time. And is there any place you
if someone wants to geek out with the
the data or learn more about what you
do and anywhere you'd send them? Well, two
two things I I'd say is is back
to the Wheatley Institute. If you go to
the the Wheatley Institute site of BYU,
there's a a place that has research reports.
And so you can click on that. You
can click on family. There's several things. Actually,
we just did one on AI. You can

(58:04):
see, you know and it it's like I
said, it's meant for public consumption, so it's
a lot of bar graphs and and other
kinda easily. It's not a lot of stats,
but there's one on AI. There's a couple
we've done in pornography, a couple other ones
just on other family stuff. So it's a
really good resource, I think, for members of
the church and leaders of the church that
are interested in family topics to go get
some
accessible research that's connected to gospel principles.

(58:26):
And then the other thing the other plug
I'll give is the church's website on pornography.
I've had the privilege of being involved
in the creation of a lot of that
content.
And it's I don't wanna say it's so
much better because I would imply the old
content was bad,
but it's so much
more expansive.
That that if you go to the church's
site on pornography,

(58:47):
there's stuff for spouses, there's stuff for church
leaders and bishops and and stake presidents, there's
stuff for friends. There's just so much more
content there that I think a lot of
church members don't even realize it's there. That
that if you go on your gospel library
and you go to gospel topics,
pornography is one of those topics and there's
tons of resources there. Awesome. Perfect. Well, just
to conclude, if you're in front of a

(59:09):
room full of church leaders, what final encouragement
would you give them? Yeah. I think the
two things I'd say is like we said
before is be positive.
Be the example
of the joy that can come from the
gospel of Jesus Christ in all topics but
particularly for this one and then two
understand that like I said before this is

(59:30):
the most common issue that your youth are
dealing with. Whether they're talking to you or
not, whether you think it is, it is
the most common thing that they're struggling with.
And so, even if that means they're not
directly talking to me, again, lessons,
firesides,
other things that can address this topic
to hopefully encourage them to come talk to
church leaders. But then even if they don't,
that they're still getting good information,

(59:51):
good principles,
and good resources.
That concludes this episode of the Leading Saints
podcast. We'd love to hear from you about
your questions or thoughts or comments. You can
either leave a comment on the, post related
to this episode at leadingsaints.org

(01:00:12):
or go to leadingsaints.org/contact
and send us your perspective or questions. If
there's other episodes or topics you'd like to
hear on the Leading Saints podcast, go to
leadingsaints.org/contact
and share with us the information there. And
we would love for you to share this
with any individual you think this would apply
to, especially maybe individuals in your ward council
or other leaders that you may know who

(01:00:33):
would really appreciate the perspectives that we discussed.
Remember, learn more about disclosing betrayal from Jeff
Struer by visiting leadingsaints.org/fourteen.
It came as a result of the position

(01:00:54):
of leadership which was imposed upon us
by the God of heaven who brought
forth a restoration
of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
When the declaration
was made concerning the only
true and living Church upon the face of
the earth,
we were immediately put in a position of

(01:01:15):
loneliness,
the loneliness
of leadership
from which we cannot shrink nor run away,
and to which we must face up with
boldness and courage
and ability.

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The Science of Pornography Use | An Interview with Brian Willoughby

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The Science of Pornography Use | An Interview with Brian Willoughby