Toxic Perfectionism at Church | An Interview with Justin Dyer

Justin Dyer received BA in Marriage and Family from Brigham Young University and a Master's and Ph.D. in Human Development and Family Studies from the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. He also has expertise in statistics. Justin is a professor of religion at BYU, teaching religion and family classes, and focuses his research on religion and mental health. He has published over 70 peer-reviewed studies in scholarly journals. Justin has served in various Church callings including full-time missionary in Brazil, Primary teacher, early morning Seminary teacher, Young Men leader, and bishop. He currently serves as a ward missionary. Most importantly, Justin has been married for 22 years and has six children whom he loves to inundate with the most recent, intriguing research graphs he has created. Links Share your thoughts in the Leading Saints community Transcript coming soon Get 14-day access to the Core Leader Library Highlights Justin talks about toxic perfectionism, particularly within the context of Latter-day Saints. He shares his research findings, which challenge the common belief that Latter-day Saints are inherently more prone to toxic perfectionism than individuals from other religious backgrounds. He explains that while 12% of Latter-day Saint youth exhibit high levels of toxic perfectionism, this figure is lower than the 20% found among atheists and agnostics, suggesting that toxic perfectionism is a broader human tendency rather than a specific issue tied to religious beliefs. The conversation delves into the nuances of perfectionism, distinguishing between healthy striving for high standards and the detrimental effects of toxic perfectionism, which can lead to feelings of worthlessness and shame. Justin emphasizes the importance of fostering a secure attachment to God, which can mitigate feelings of toxic perfectionism. He highlights the role of parents and leaders in creating an environment of love and support, rather than shame, to help youth navigate their identities and self-worth. The episode also addresses the challenges faced by LGBTQ youth within religious contexts, advocating for a compassionate approach that maintains the value of religious teachings while providing necessary support. The conversation underscores the significance of identity and the need for leaders and parents to remind youth of their inherent worth as children of God, encouraging them to strive for high standards without the burden of toxic perfectionism. 01:41 - Introduction of Justin Dyer and Research Focus 02:56 - Exploring Toxic Perfectionism 03:41 - Research Intent and Methodology 05:12 - Understanding Toxic Perfectionism 06:48 - Healthy vs. Toxic Perfectionism 09:46 - Impact of Perfectionism on Identity 10:33 - Balancing Standards and Self-Worth 12:06 - The Role of Perfectionism in Religious Context 13:13 - Addressing Youth and Leadership Dynamics 14:03 - The Challenge of Leadership Messaging 16:44 - Data Insights on Toxic Perfectionism 20:06 - The Role of Religion in Mental Health 22:44 - Encouraging a Positive Gospel Experience 24:33 - Parenting and Toxic Perfectionism in Youth 27:01 - The Importance of Love in Parenting 28:51 - The Impact of Parental Relationships on Identity 30:41 - Navigating Adolescence and Identity 32:27 - The Dangers of Silent Suffering 34:13 - Encouraging Healthy Standards in Youth 36:36 - Addressing LGBTQ Dynamics in Religious Context 38:10 - The Importance of Individualized Support 40:06 - Adult Experiences with Toxic Perfectionism 42:29 - Building a Secure Relationship with God The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints' mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway,

Episode Transcript

(00:02):
Have you ever tried to help youth with
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(00:23):
of stress, how to minimize shame, and mastering
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I want you to see this presentation as
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and this will get you access to the
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Jody's presentation is in the Mentally Healthy Saints

(00:45):
library, and you'll be a better leader or
parent when you finish it. Again, go to
leadingsaints.org/14
or check out the show notes for the
link.
Hey. Welcome to the Leading Saints podcast. Now
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(01:29):
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We are welcoming back Justin Dyer into the
studio. Justin's a BYU professor
of, professor of religion. Now BYU teaches the

(01:49):
eternal family courses, but also does phenomenal research
with a fantastic team with Sam Hardy and
Mike Goodman who we've had on the podcast
before.
And and I just love the questions these
guys ask, the research they dig into because
they validate the Latter day Saint experience
to a whole another level. And sometimes you
wonder, I don't know, like, I I appreciate

(02:11):
the church and we teach good things, but
I don't know. Is it damaging to some?
Do some get overwhelmed by this message and
maybe we need to water it down a
little or soften it? But, no, like, this
the research that they do has been so
encouraging and, so that's why I'm excited to
have a conversation today about toxic perfectionism
because that could be the the assumption, right,

(02:32):
that that being a Latter day Saint, having
all these rules, commandments, covenants, doesn't that stimulate
toxic perfectionism that we're constantly living in a
place of not being good enough? Now I
realize my heart goes out to those who
have lived that, who have had those feelings
come from some gospel
behaviors and traditions, and we talk about that,
Justin and I, as we explore how can

(02:52):
we offer the gospel to individuals, especially in
a leadership context that will stimulate good mental
health, encouragement, hope, grace, all those things. So
you're gonna love this discussion. So here's my
interview with Justin Dyer.

(03:14):
Alright, Justin. You're back with some more research,
so this is cool. Great to be here.
Thanks so much for having me. And I
I so much appreciate the research, you and
and to Mike Goodman. And who else is
there? Sam? Sam Hardy as well and Mark
Ogletree are the ones that have been working
on the research with me. And now recently,
you've been talking about the research around perfectionism
and toxic perfectionism.

(03:35):
That's right. Where's a good, like, launching off
point? Like, what explain the the intent of
that type of research. So the research actually
started when I was sitting in a meeting,
and somebody just happened to mention that, well,
Latter day Saints are really high in toxic
perfectionism.
And
I happened to have my laptop at that
moment. Then I thought to myself, I've been

(03:56):
doing research on Latter day Saints and mental
health for the last eight years or so.
And
there actually is no research on that. And
so we'd been collecting data on
Latter day Saint youth and youth of other
religions as well. Got up about 2,000 of
them. We followed them for eight years.
And so I decided to open my laptop

(04:16):
right there and crunch some numbers
and found that that narrative is inaccurate, that
Latter day Saints are higher in perfectionism than
those of other religions. And so, and I'd
heard that before. And I think many people
have heard that, that, well, Latter day Saints
must be really perfectionistic
in a negative way, you know, be therefore

(04:36):
perfect. We have all these high standards. So
we must have all of this angst over
these things more so than other people.
And so it was really just
by conversations and what I've heard that I
decided, oh, we actually need to look at
these data. We've been collecting them for many
years, but we hadn't actually crunched the numbers
on that. Yeah. And off you went with

(04:57):
and then so what what type of questions
are you trying to ask? Or how do
you get at the core of that? Because
I'd like you said, that's the the assumption
that people think, well, yeah, of course, you
know, there's some toxic perfection. It's because we
have so much focus on it. Right? So
where how do you start to formulate those
questions? Yeah. So what we do is we
have these standardized measures of toxic perfectionism.

(05:18):
Actually, researchers have been looking at this for
a long time. And so what we did
is we just included those questions in our
overall survey that we've been asking people for
a number of years. And so we can
see different types of toxic perfectionism.
There's what's called discrepancy, which I feel like
I'm not meeting these standards and that causes
me feelings of shame and those kinds of

(05:40):
things. And then there's what's called
social perfectionism,
which is where I feel like I have
to be perfect for other people. Otherwise,
I'm not lovable.
And my value comes from being perfect. That's
really what toxic perfectionism
is about. And so we ask these standardized
questions
to these kids over the years. And then

(06:01):
what we're able to do is say, alright,
how do Latter day Saints differ in their
toxic perfectionism
from those of other religions or those of
no religion?
And it's important to recognize what toxic perfectionism
is. Again, it's not necessarily about having high
standards. That's a really good thing. It's not
necessarily about not meeting those standards because that's

(06:22):
a daily occurrence for human beings is to
not meet, you know, what we'd hoped to
meet. It's how we feel about ourselves when
we do when we don't meet our standards,
when we make mistakes. Do we feel like
that we're no longer of worth, that we're
no longer valued, that we're no longer lovable
if we don't meet those standards?
And so that's kind of the

(06:43):
outline of how we went about that
and how we measure toxic perfectionism.
Yeah. And I just my mind goes to,
like, obviously, with perfectionism, it's usually tied to
behaviors.
Right? And in a religious tradition, there's often
behaviors mentioned. Right? As far over sin that's
mentioned, that's sort of negative behaviors that we
wanna stay away from. And so that toxic

(07:03):
nature, I guess some people can interpret it
like, it's toxic if it's kinda makes you
uncomfortable or or hurts. When in reality, it's
like, well, it's good to sort of be
uncomfortable at times or be like, oh, that's
a high standard. I don't know if I
can do it, you know, and and to
reach for that. But then I I appreciate
the concept of toxic because something's toxic. It's
like it will perpetually get you more and
more sick or worse and worse. Right? Where

(07:26):
just because something's hard doesn't necessarily mean it's
toxic. Is that fair to say? That's exactly
right. So, yes, there are some standards that
are difficult. You know, you have that youth
that goes to the party and everybody else
is drinking. And, oh my goodness, I would
feel ashamed if I didn't drink and it
would feel bad and all that. And so
they have this conflict and they think to
themselves,
well, it would just be so much easier

(07:46):
Mhmm. If I could drink.
When in fact, we find and well, number
one, it would be illegal for them to
do that. Right. And we find that,
drinking does relate to more mental health problems.
Mhmm. And that's not a
theological statement. That's a very well researched statement.
In fact, now the surgeon general is wants
to put on all alcohol

(08:08):
a notice that it could cause cancer. It's
now a known cause of cancer and we're
aware of that now. And so, yes, there's
this discomfort but
sometimes
because we have these standards, yes, it's uncomfortable
but guess what? Those are actually
better for us. It's better for us to
keep those standards
than to
not keep those standards. Yeah. Sometimes I say,

(08:30):
you know, for me, it would be a
good standard to do 50 push ups. I
can't do 50 push ups, but that would
be a good goal for me to have.
If I said, okay, that's a good goal.
So I'm going to get down right here,
right now and do 50 push ups. I'm
not going to make it. And I could
get up and I could say, oh, I'm
such a terrible person. Oh, you know, that
guy on TV can do 50 pushups. I'm
not as good as him. Well, that's a

(08:51):
good goal. I'm going to do it again.
And so I get down. I tried to
50 pushups. I'm going to do fewer pushups
the second time than I did the first
time. If I get up, oh, no, that's
I'm so terrible and all that. And it's
a good goal. I'm going to keep doing
it. I get down and try it again.
I'm going to do fewer pushups the third
time. And so healthy perfectionism
is about making really good high standards,
but recognizing that we are going to make

(09:13):
mistakes along the way, that we're not going
to be perfect at it, and then we
can adjust
as needed that, oh, that standard of 50
pushups, that's a long term goal. What are
kind of the short term goals in the
middle that I can
make so that I can get there? And
then if I don't make it, I don't
feel like I'm worthless. Yeah. I hold my
head high and I move forward in order

(09:34):
to try and achieve that goal eventually. Yeah.
So it sounds like
bad or toxic perfectionism
has a negative impact on our identity or
how we see or interpret ourselves as a
person or a being. Is that fair? You
just said that perfectly.
It actually does do that. Right? We start
to view ourselves, ourselves, you know, who I

(09:54):
am as negative and bad.
Right? If we sin,
then we can say, Absolutely. Yeah. What I
did was bad. And that's actually a good
thing. It's healthy. It's really mentally healthy for
us to acknowledge when we do wrong things.
Yeah. That's a good thing for us. It's
actually a big problem when people don't acknowledge
when they make mistakes.
It's very healthy when we do that. So

(10:16):
healthy to recognize I did
a wrong thing.
Unhealthy to say, therefore,
God doesn't love me. Other people can't love
me. I shouldn't love me. Mhmm. And it's
when we go to that location,
other people shouldn't love me. God won't love
me. That's when we get into the toxic
area. Yeah. And so it's this tough balance
of time because
oftentimes in my own life, I

(10:38):
interpret things different than maybe somebody else does.
Right? Alright. And that you see this in
in youth, and I wanna get there with
youth, you know, generally. But, you know, they
may interpret a bad day of, like, what's
wrong with me? I can't get right where
I'm kinda may maybe matured to a place
of being like, you know, just some days
are tough, and there's always tomorrow type of
thing. Right? And so sometimes you just because
it you can shift to the healthy

(10:59):
perfectionism,
there are the healthy striving.
Others can't. So you just have to be
aware of that. Right? Oh, absolutely. We all
are probably at some degree to some point
in our lives, a bit of a toxic
perfectionist. Mhmm. Right? Some people have it to
a greater degree than others. And so, yeah,
when we're working with youth, when we're working
with other individuals, we do have to realize

(11:20):
that just because I'm interpreting something a particular
way doesn't mean that everybody's interpreting it that
same way. Yeah. So, I mean, what about
just the word perfectionism
in general? Like, obviously, be there for perfect.
Right? And, I mean, the biblical scholars can
take you down all sorts of wormholes with
just that word. What's it mean? The translation.
And, you know, I think of, elder Holland's

(11:41):
talk of be therefore perfect eventually. Right? And
so sometimes the interpretation of these things and
I don't think, you know, generally,
I don't think Christ was saying be therefore
perfect or man, am I disappointed in you
or, like,
like, there's a a deeper dynamic going on.
Right? So I think some people just avoid
the concept of perfectionism in general, but in

(12:03):
religious context, some of the times you can't
get away from it. Right? Yeah. Absolutely.
I think we really do have this
conflicted relationship with that because we know that
we should strive for good things and we
know that we should have high standards.
And yet,
we have this sense that, well, if we
have these high standards and isn't that bad,
and aren't we gonna make people feel bad?

(12:24):
Right? And so we're kind of conflicted about
whether or not we should hold on to
perfection or as an ideal, or whether or
not we should hold to these standards as
ideals.
But when we're able to separate out the
standard
from our own self worth, from our identity,
if we can say to ourselves, as President
Nelson has taught us, that we are children

(12:44):
of God, child of the covenant, disciple of
Christ. If we can hold on to those
things
as identities, then
we can strive for good things while at
the same time thinking,
I am still loved infinitely.
And so we can do both of those
at the same time. We can hold perfection
as an ideal while at the same time
holding
within ourselves, I am loved infinitely. And there's

(13:07):
there's nothing that's gonna take me outside the
bounds of Christ's love and his help. Yeah.
I don't know exactly where this will take
us, but I'm I'm just thinking of the
typical
scenario that maybe a church leader experiences
where, you know, we've been to many of
those state conferences or, you know, the bishop
speaks in sacrament or even speaking to youth
where there's this feeling of, like, you know,

(13:29):
you all are great people, but you could
be doing a little bit more. I mean,
I've seen the temple attendance numbers and yeah.
It's come on. You know, you're sort of
this feeling of rallying the troops. And so
then leaders get this perception of feeling of,
like, I think I'm just always supposed to,
like, once they maybe touch the standard, I
gotta lift it a little bit more because
we're reaching for perfection. But then that

(13:51):
experience just becomes like, oh, like, I can't
I can't do it. I can't listen to
one more talk about I'm not doing enough
when I'm just trying to survive most days.
Right? What what comes to mind with with
that?
Yeah. That's,
we are so good.
Many of us are just so good at
saying anything
my leader says

(14:12):
that is about improvement or anything like that
applies directly to
me. Right? Leaders are speaking to people in
lots of different circumstances.
And sometimes
when we
hear a leader and there are certainly sometimes
and I know I've I've had this at
times, perhaps as a missionary, maybe many people
can relate to this as a missionary. Yeah.

(14:33):
This is these are good examples. You are
you are 100%
obedient, like, and you're you're moving along.
And
then the mission president says we need to
do better. And honestly, he's really not talking
to you. Right. He's talking to the other
elders or sisters who
are
perhaps not quite in the patterns,

(14:54):
if you will, of missionary service. And so
it does take some maturity
for us to take what a leader says
and then
apply it in our own situation
and to examine ourselves with the Lord.
Right? Am I doing all that I need
to be doing in this area?
And we can say to ourselves, leader, thank
you so much for bringing that up. I

(15:14):
really appreciate it. It was a point for
me to self examine.
And you know what? I feel like between
me and the Lord, we're doing great in
that particular area. Yeah. So we can take
some ownership for it.
For the advice
and the counsel given
by our leaders. And of course, you know,
if they say there are those times when
we say, you know what? I'm actually not

(15:35):
doing that as well and I need to
adjust what I'm doing. And so we need
to be, if you will, spiritually mature enough
to take what the leaders say and take
it seriously
and evaluate to what degree do I need
to change something in my life. Yep. Yeah.
And on the you know, like and this
is the like, from the leader standpoint as
leaders are listening. I think the paradox is

(15:57):
that, you know, I I always go back
to Carl Rogers, American psychologist, who said, you
know, the curious paradox is that when I
accept myself just as I am, then I
can change. Right? And that dynamic is happening
when when you help the people feel
they're accepted just as they are. It's this
weird thing happens. They wanna do more. They
wanna be better. They wanna lean into the

(16:17):
gospel. Right? And so I'm just thinking, like,
the more we can offer redemption in the
context of a state conference of, you know,
let isn't it beautiful that Christ's, like, what
he did for us? Not so much of
what you didn't do this past week. Right?
Anyways, I I I'm kind of veering off
the focus here. But going back to the
data Mhmm. That so the data, as far

(16:37):
as you can tell, is telling us that
there's nothing about our religious experience is stimulating
more toxic perfectionism. Is that a fair way
to frame it? So toxic perfectionism
seems to be a natural human tendency
that would exist whether they're religious or non
religious. So
what we found is that twelve percent of
Latter day Saint youth were high in toxic

(16:58):
perfectionism, which isn't a good number, right? We
need to look at that and say, okay,
what can we do better? The same time,
atheists and agnostics, twenty percent of them were
high in toxic perfectionism.
And so
because it's a natural human tendency
to be toxic perfectionist, there might be, if
you will,
messages that some youth or adult receives in

(17:20):
church that may indicate,
you know, you really aren't of worth if
you are not perfect. Mhmm. But the thing
is, is that those messages
exist in all of society. Right. It's a
human tendency to feel toxic perfectionism, but it's
also a human tendency
to indicate that somebody is not as good
or not very worthwhile

(17:42):
if they are not perfect or make mistakes
or any of those things. Right? You just
think of social media, all the images that
you receive about all these people are
are doing so well. It is very profitable
for companies
to make you feel bad about yourself
if you do not have their product, if
you don't subscribe to whatever it is. And

(18:03):
so they are really, really good at that
and therefore that's probably why you see outside
of religion higher levels of toxic perfectionism
because at least within religion, particularly the Church
of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, we
are taught that we are children of God,
that you are loved infinitely.
There's nothing you can do to take yourself
outside the circle of God's love.

(18:24):
That you are infinite
value and so within religion you can bypass
that.
It's not just about the worldly things that
no matter what happens to me, no matter
what the circumstances that occur in my life
or what mistakes I made, I can go
to church and guess what? 99
times out of a hundred, I'm told God
loves you no matter what. Yeah. I'm told

(18:46):
that if you make mistakes,
those sins though they be a scarlet can
be made white as
wool, snow, all those things
that you don't just have this life. If
I messed up my youth or my young
adulthood,
well, guess what? You have a chance to
change and there's a life after this
that you can have infinite

(19:07):
possibilities
ahead of you and joy. For For somebody
who doesn't believe that, boy, if I mess
up this life, that's kind of it. Yeah.
And so there's even more of a sense
that
if I don't do well,
boy, this wasn't worthwhile
versus,
hey, if I don't do well, I can
change, I can repent. I'm always loved and
there's an infinite beauty

(19:28):
ahead of me. So certainly there are
tendencies of religious people because we are people,
we're human beings
that say a kid in Sunday school or
seminary might feel the message
that, Oh, I'm not worthwhile.
But that is anti gospel,
right? That is pro consumerism if you will,
because that's what the consumerism culture wants you

(19:49):
to believe.
But that's anti gospel.
And so within the gospel of Jesus Christ,
we get the messages that can help us
avoid it. We still have issues with it
in the gospel, but that's more because of
the natural man
and other worldly emphasis, not because of the
pure doctrine of Jesus Christ. Yeah. And I
really wanna underscore that. That's a really helpful
framing that it's mortality

(20:11):
that stimulates the toxic perfectionism where you, you
know, in a religious frame, you can say
it's the adversary
that does that even to the atheist
when he gets on social media and he
sees someone that has something more than he
does, and when he gets that, there's always
gonna be somebody else who has something more.
Right? And that dynamic can plays into it
where if that same individual
had a place he could go every

(20:33):
seven days or so or a community he
was in reminding him, no. No. You gotta
remember. You are a child of god of
infinite
worth. Like, that sort of that can reset
the system to then face mortality
again and again. Right? Oh, absolutely.
You see an image of somebody
online
and they have this perfect body
and,

(20:54):
you know, for the religious individual,
Oh boy,
I guess I'm not worth something because I
don't have that body. Oh wait, but my
body is a temple of the spirit.
And oh, I'm still of infinite worth even
though I don't have that. Right? We have
a way
to frame
ourselves, our identity
that is not tied to,

(21:15):
if you will, the world
and material possessions
and success in a worldly sense
or even in a spiritual sense. Right? Even
if somebody I see them as more righteous
than me, guess what? They're not more loved
by God than me. And, they're not more
God doesn't care about them more than he
cares about me. And so we have all
the hope in the universe to move forward

(21:36):
even if we don't even if we make
mistakes
or, don't have what others have. Yeah. And,
Esa, this is why I love interviewing you
and some of your research partners of because
I want leaders to feel like they can
lean in and have permission
of proposing the gospel lifestyle saying this is
a valid lifestyle that promotes very healthy experiences

(21:57):
and mental health dynamics and all those things.
Right? And, of course, we're not saying we're
perfect at fighting toxic perfectionism. Right? Like, sure.
We could go through and be like, well,
you know, what about the temple recommend thing?
Like, is that the best way to do
it? Like, well,
maybe there's a better way, but we're just
doing our best to saying
we need some level of standard to gauge

(22:17):
whether people are ready for that next step
of covenants or renewing those covenants type of
thing. Right? So I don't say the system
is
perfect to every, you know, detail. However, generally
speaking,
the gospel of Jesus Christ
is a beautiful framework
that I highly recommend that every leader should
feel like you can recommend this with passion

(22:39):
and yeah. With that passion of saying, no,
this is valid. Lean into this. Right? That's
exactly right.
The standards of the gospel
are beautiful and fantastic.
And it's actually,
you know, I have benefited
from those throughout my life, but I don't
think I realized how much I benefited throughout
my life until I started doing this research

(23:00):
and looking at these various standards and religious
people and
finding that they actually do better in their
mental health and family life and in all
these ways.
And it's those standards that are helping us.
Now, are there instances where there's, you know,
one out of ten of our youth
who have high toxic perfectionism
and maybe sometimes when we indicate these things,

(23:22):
they are putting themselves down and that's creating
problems? Yes, absolutely.
Which is why we need to be dialed
into the individual,
which is why it's wonderful that you have
youth that have
their adult youth presidencies, the young women
presidencies.
You have four women there and the bishopric
and they're all dialed into these youth at

(23:44):
a close level that we can try to
monitor. Okay, how are they
receiving these messages?
Let's teach the standards
that will bless them so much in their
lives.
Their life here and in eternal life,
we are going off the rails unfortunately in
society in terms of mental health problems, deaths
of despair like suicide.

(24:04):
And part of it is because we're losing
religion.
And the wonderful blessing that religion provides
for us in our lives. Please teach that.
It's such a blessing. You're literally saving lives
from doing that, but also be aware that,
alright, there might be people who are interpreting
these messages
who have experienced this toxic perfectionism, so just
be aware of that. Yeah. And dial in

(24:25):
with each one of them to make sure
that they know that they're loved no matter
what and that these standards are there to
support and to help and to lead them
closer to god. Yeah.
Let's talk about just the youth demographic for
a minute because it does feel like and
I have a variety of theories on this
where
all things related to youth feels heavier
in general. And I would probably and this

(24:45):
is probably controversial, but I'd say it's probably
not as heavy as you think. However, from
a parent's standpoint, you're like, man, I remember
little Johnny. When he was eight getting baptized,
he was so precious up here, and now
he's 14 and, like, what is happening? Right?
Like, the contrast is there. And so you
feel like we gotta triple down our effort.
We gotta make sure that, you know, testimonies

(25:05):
get established, that we're doing the youth activity,
that, you know, that we're developing this person.
Then we sorta overplay it to the point
of, like, alright. Now I think we overwhelmed
the the kid or not. You know? So
but what does the data show or what
can we learn just about how is this
perfectionism, toxic perfectionism unique for youth the youth
experience?

(25:25):
Youth are just
in that process of discovering who they are.
Yeah. Right? They're an identity discovery in so
many ways.
And so what they're trying to figure out
is where does my worth
come from?
If I don't play basketball as well as
my dad wants me to play basketball,
am I still loved?

(25:46):
If I don't get on the particular team
or whatever,
am I still
good and okay? And so they're trying to
figure all of that out.
So it is a perfect time to try
and instill in them, again, exactly what President
Nelson is trying to do. Give us our
true identities. Yeah. Help us to understand who
we are and where we come from. That
is going to be the very best

(26:08):
combat against toxic perfectionism.
Now what we found in our research
is that parents who use what we call
authoritarian
parenting Mhmm. And that's high expectations but low
love Mhmm. And low care and concern
and often a lot of shaming Mhmm. For
the kid doing the wrong thing where we
would indicate to the kid that, you know

(26:29):
what, mom, dad doesn't love you. Right? We
give them the silent treatment. We use love
withdrawal.
Well, I'm gonna just kinda be cold shoulder
over here
because
they're not doing the right thing. Mhmm. When
in fact, when they're not doing the right
thing, they probably need more
of mom and dad. Mhmm. They probably need
more love from us and more care and

(26:50):
concern. Not that we drop standards,
but that we
are dialed into what they need
because then that calls them
to
a higher standard
rather than
giving them, you know,
icy fire
to punish them to a higher standard. Right?
We don't whip them to get along the

(27:12):
path, we call them through our love. We
found that
when both mom and dad
were authoritarian in their parenting,
fifty percent of girls
were high in toxic perfectionism,
forty nine percent it was. I mean, it
just goes off the charts as soon as
mom and dad use this kind of love
withdrawal
and shame their children for doing the wrong

(27:34):
thing versus if they do something wrong, it's
so important for us to point that out
and to work with them
on that. But there's,
you know, if a child comes home late,
it's not written in the stars that the
first thing you have to do is get
really mad at them and say, Why were
you late? You could start with, Well, how
was your evening? Then, you know, talk about
that.
And guess what? With that, they'll probably talk

(27:55):
about them being late. But if they don't,
then eventually you say, Okay. Well, you came
home late. Can you tell me about that?
Alright. Well, we have a standard and we
have this pattern. You know that these are
the consequences gonna happen. Alright? And and we
just have those standards and those patterns,
but they're not enforced with
hate. They're enforced with love. Yeah. And the
man, there's so many things to consider, but

(28:16):
the most tragic
thing that comes from this is that often
in those in those adolescence years,
the experience they have with earthly parents is
often what they project on our eternal father
about, oh, you know, if my dad was
angry pacing in the living room when I
was five minutes past curfew,
god must be pacing in his living room

(28:36):
just so frustrated with these stupid mistakes I
make. Right? And then they would not only
withdraw from those earthly relationships but from those
eternal relationships, that godly relationship where they're so
powerful and and what's so needed in mortality.
You know? It's tough. It's tough. Yeah. That
that's absolutely the case. You tell a five
year old your heavenly father loves you. That

(28:57):
is so abstract for them. Right. Right? Your
heavenly I I don't know what that is.
Love, love is pretty abstract concept. Yeah. Father.
Oh, father. Okay. I got one of those.
Yeah. And so when the father says I
love you and all that, okay. They're kinda
getting this idea. And so, well, I guess
how my father loves me here is how
my heavenly father loves me. Yeah. And so,

(29:18):
again,
heavenly father loves you is actually pretty extract
for, like, a four or five year old.
Mhmm. And what do they do? They latch
on to the words that they're familiar with.
Yeah. And, oh, this is how this works
then. This is how my dad Yeah. Works
with me. And so if you're like me,
you've made all kinds of mistakes along the
way. Right? And so you try to explain
to your child that your heavenly father is
different from me, but then you also do

(29:39):
try to apologize when you make mistakes to
the parents. Right. That's powerful.
And
you
do try to love them as their heavenly
father would. Yeah. Yeah. And I just think
with then maybe, you know, there's smarter people
that could articulate this more accurately. But another
dynamic that happens in those adolescents years is
that they're just like that you'd mentioned, like,
they're just sort of becoming aware of their

(29:59):
identity. Right? Like, suddenly, they're really aware of
how they dress to school, the groups they're
in. And and I think a lot of
this stuff just works its way out of
the, you know, out of the system as
they mature and their
mature and their brain develops, and then they're
25 and they're like, oh, suddenly they're in
grad school. Like and you can't really tie
it back to like, oh, that's because I
I shamed them enough at 14 that, you

(30:20):
know
even though we kinda wanna take that credit,
you know, I think it's just a natural
process. And I get like, my heart goes
out to those, and I'm just stepping into
the teenage years. But, like, the but, Kurt,
what about those serious mistakes they can make?
Like, what about, like oh, no. That's the
atonement covers those two, and, you know, it'll
be okay. But I my heart goes out.
These are tough years. Right? And so but

(30:40):
what I'm learning from you in this and
what you're learning from the data is that
the more we default to a place of
identity,
like, reminding them, hey. I know you didn't
make that school team. I just want you
to know, like, you could never make a
school team again, and, like, I'd be here
for you. Like, I'll still shoot hoops with
you. I'll still we'll still do the things
together. Right? And and, sir, reassuring that identity,

(31:02):
which, again, our theology is just packed with
this stuff. Right? President Nelson just
been pounding the lectern for, you know, so
many years now about remember who you are.
Like, this is your identity, drawing people to
the temple. What's what's the temple about? Identity.
Right? So I'm just thinking, like, to enable
those youth leaders out there, those parents of,
like, if you don't know what to do,

(31:22):
just default to divine identity and remind them
again and again, and that will give you
a foundation to build from. Absolutely.
That is such the critical foundation upon which
everything else builds. Yeah. Awesome. What about this
is something I worry about. So I have
a 13 year old, Devry. Just so sweet.
Just like
growing up, you know, she's in young women's
now just and she's so good. Like,

(31:46):
you know, and and I try and have
these conversations with their ITs. They're like, don't
turn into a mean ager. Like, hope you
still like me throughout your teens. Like, of
course, dad, I will. Right? But I also
worry that, you know, there's this I don't
know what they would call it, like, the
the good student
syndrome where it's like somebody's sort of quietly
suffering in toxic perfectionism. And so they're getting

(32:06):
the straight a's. They're doing all the things.
And then suddenly it snaps
the more tragic scenarios of, you know, teen
suicides and things of, like, wow. What happened?
They were so good when in reality,
they were interpreting it like, well, yeah, I
have to be this good or that they
would reject me. Right? Is there any, like
I don't know if any that anything came
out in the data or is it does

(32:26):
that lead you anywhere?
Oh, absolutely.
There are many that are just suffering in
silence and they look like they're doing good.
They look like they're doing okay because they're
succeeding in all these things.
Honestly, it's a good thing every now and
again,
because you can kind of see if you're
paying attention, you can kind of see perhaps
some signs of and again, there are some
times where parents generally there there really weren't

(32:48):
signs, so I don't wanna say that. Right.
But if we can pay attention and say,
you know what? Are they doing okay?
I have expressed to one of my children
before. I said, you know, that if you
failed out of school, you'd still be okay.
And I would love you.
Right? And your life wouldn't be over if
that happened. And it's like, Why is my
dad giving me permission to fail out of
school? And I say, No. Now let's try

(33:09):
not to do that.
But this is by far not the most
important thing in your life.
The most important thing in your life, right,
are gonna be the relationships that you build
with those around you, with your heavenly father.
That's what's really most important. Yeah. I mean,
a person could be a failure in so
many ways in life, but still 100%

(33:29):
succeed.
There are people who are in total poverty
that in the next life
are gonna be so much better
off than me who has a good job,
right stability,
all these things
because they have managed to achieve
those heavenly qualities. Mhmm. And so as we

(33:51):
work with our kids, the more that we
can acknowledge to them what really matters
in life
and that
those successes that they have
are fantastic, they're wonderful. We should
applaud
and praise those successes
but also remember, you know what? That's not
the end all be all Yeah. Of life.

(34:13):
And reminding my kids that, Hey, I failed
at a lot of things
in my life. And helping them to
recognize that failure is a part of life.
And
we naturally identify with those things that we're
very good at.
And so very naturally,
say at BYU,
you have people that have The students have

(34:34):
done very, very well in high school.
And
I talk to them about that and say,
Well, what if you were to,
again, naturally make one of your primary identities
good student?
What happens when you get that first B
at BYU?
And a lot of heads are like, Yeah,
I remember
that. Your whole world falls apart. Yeah. But

(34:54):
it's a natural thing to have that develop
because, Oh, I'm a really good student, and
you're told you're a good student. Uh-huh. But
we need to just continue to remind them
that, you know what? That's a temporal thing.
It's a wonderful thing. It's a great thing.
Please do well on it because that can
help you be a better disciple of Christ.
But at the end of the day, that's
what we're striving for. Yeah. And I appreciate
that story you shared. Again, that paradox of,
like, you're not telling your center daughter, like,

(35:17):
you can actually flunk out of school and
whatever. You know? But you're just it's an
identity
discussion. You're like, let's set behaviors aside for
men just so you know, like, we're good.
Like, whatever happens. And sometimes, as, you know,
taking back to the church context, I worry
we sometimes oversell
the gospel tradition and behaviors where it's like
in a priest quorum, you can't help but

(35:37):
talk about your mission. Let me show you
pictures. You guys are gonna love it. Like,
I'm gonna come to each one of your
mission call openings. It's gonna be great. Right?
And and then the the the young man
sitting there thinking, like, I don't wanna go
on a mission. So is this guy gonna
reject me the minute he finds out I
don't wanna go on a mission? Right? Or
we know we we hype up the temple.
Temple's awesome. It's like, actually, I'm kinda bored
when I go to the temple. You know?

(35:57):
Like, what does that mean about me? Right?
So the the more we can just
take it back to these identity discussions. But
at the same time, like, I've noticed just
in my parenting or relationships, when I make
sure that
identity
conversation and foundation is set, then I can
approach my son or daughter and be like,
listen, I know you have it in you
to take this on. Like, you can be

(36:19):
a missionary. Like, you got it. You have
what it takes.
Go do it. I'll be right here. Like,
I'll be writing the letters every week or
whatever. Right? Like, you have support. You can
do this. And then they're like, okay. I'm
I'm I know my identity. I can lean
in. And then that positive
perfectionism, like, just
drives them. Yeah. Amen. It's so good for
us to push our kids. Mhmm. My wife

(36:41):
is very good at this. You know, if
they go my kids go to the doctor's
office, even the little kids, go check yourself
in. Go talk to the receptionist. That's right.
Right? You make that phone call. Mhmm. Right?
Pushing these kids out of their comfort zone
to do things that, hey, I have confidence
in you. And when they perceive that we
have confidence
in them, like you just expressed, then they
can pick up that confidence

(37:02):
as well. And it's a great thing. Again,
it is great to have high standards. That's
a wonderful thing. It's an incredibly mentally healthy
thing Yeah. To have high standards.
And you can hold both of those things
in your hands. You can hold, I am
a child of God and no matter what
my mistakes
are, I can come back, and you can
hold in the other hand as well, I

(37:23):
need to have high standards. And in fact,
those are reinforcing
things. They're not mutually exclusive. They're things that
actually
boost each other. Yeah. And that takes me
to this conversation of, like, sometimes leaders are
really hesitant
because you think about, like, the LGBT
dynamics
and, being a
LGBTQ
Latter day Saint and wow. Like, that's

(37:44):
complex. It's complicated.
And so maybe let's not talk about the
temple so much or about these commandments, and
let's just make sure that, you know, they're
in a a mental health state that's actually
pause you know, we we kinda try and
control these dynamics to the point of
not having permission to lean in and say,
no. This is a valid thing. So anything
come to mind as far as, like, when

(38:05):
sometimes we wanna kinda downplay the the gospel.
I mean, and maybe we've already covered it.
Though. No, no, no. That's a really great
point, especially when we're thinking about
kids who might not fit the typical mold.
Right? Your LGBTQ individuals. And okay, well,
we might not quite know how to approach
that. Obviously, the best way to approach that
is a one on one Yeah. Sort of
a thing where we're trying to understand where

(38:26):
they're coming from
and see where they're at and then bring
them along in a in a one by
one on one thing. But the research is
actually pretty clear and not just from our
research but other research studies that the more
religious LGBTQ individuals are, the better their mental
health. Yeah. And they also derive benefit from
religion. And so actually if we, if you

(38:48):
will, soft pedal it and say that some
people are gonna be exempt from some commandments,
what you've done is you've just taken away
supports. Mhmm. In an effort to be kind
and loving and supportive, we've actually just removed
some supports
from those individuals because the commandments are a
support. They're so good for us
in our lives.

(39:09):
And if we decide to remove some of
those for some people,
then we've actually done them a disservice. Right.
And again, we need to make sure that
particularly with individuals
whose experiences might be well outside the norm,
we need to be able to
engage with them on a one on one
basis. And again, that's why
the local leaders are so important

(39:31):
to be right there and dialed in with
what the youth are experiencing.
My parents
can be dialed in with their kids' experiences
as much as they can. I remember as
a kid there were some things I was
far more comfortable talking to a youth leader
about than my own parents. My parents are
fantastic people, but
people, but just for whatever reason, I just
felt like, oh, I need to would talk
with some somebody else. And that's that's a

(39:52):
natural thing. Right. Yeah. Is there anything that
came out of the data that,
for the adult demographic,
not just, you know, after you've matured out
of, teenage years, anything that's unique about adults
and toxic perfectionism?
You know, what we found is that lower
levels of toxic perfectionism in adults.
So it seems like you got toxic perfectionism

(40:13):
that kind of grows throughout
the teenage years and adolescence and early adulthood.
You kind of have that increase there. But
it looks like a little later in life,
you know, you kind of settle down a
little bit. You make enough mistakes to realize
you're probably not gonna figure it out. Right?
That's right. That's right. That's right. You just
gotta give up. You're just tired. It was
like, you know, and
I'm imperfect. And so be it. Perfect. Yeah.

(40:34):
But what we did find actually even more
with the youth that religion helps to dial
down toxic perfectionism.
Mhmm. For youth, toxic perfectionism leads to less
religious behaviors. Mhmm. In some instances, you had
religious behaviors
decreasing toxic perfectionism,
but you really found a big negative effect
of toxic perfectionism
on religion. So kids who experience that, they're

(40:57):
more likely to back away.
And in fact,
you know, we think of the toxic perfectionist
kid as being that kid who is super
high achieving,
But it's actually can also be the kid
that decides, I'm going to do nothing. Mhmm.
Because it's just so dangerous.
If I make a mistake,
then I'm worthless. Yeah. And so it's easier

(41:17):
not to try.
And so it can be the kid that
just spends all their day on video games
because they're just so scared of trying. Yeah.
Like this is a safe place and I
can achieve whatever I can here in this
video game, but if I try outside of
this, in school, in church,
it's just too painful. Yeah. And so I'm
just going to back away from it all.
So we found that a lot that kids

(41:39):
who were toxic perfectionists
tended to shy away from religion.
And the opposite was also true in some
instances where the more religious you were that
dialed down the toxic perfectionism, but that was
actually particularly true in adults.
That the more secure relationship they had with
God,
that I feel like God's trustworthy and all
that, the less they experienced toxic perfectionism.

(42:01):
And that behavior such as
scripture reading and
church attendance, that helped to translate into
that secure attachment to God and then less
toxic perfectionism.
So the behaviors really only mattered in as
much as they were helping the adults and
the youth, but more so even the adults,
create that healthy relationship with God. Like I

(42:23):
can trust God, he's going to be there
for me and we call that a secure
attachment with God. Yeah.
And and, you know, I wanna remind myself,
and correct me if I'm wrong, like like,
you're the researcher. You're the data guy. You
didn't say I did the day, and now
I have all the solutions. But just for
conversation's sake, I'm curious. Like, I'm just thinking
of that person, and we've all heard this
story where someone is sort of propelled into

(42:44):
a faith crisis because they're just like, I
just
can't do it all anymore. Because somewhere along
the path, they got this idea that if
you're not going to the temple once a
week or studying your scriptures sixty minutes a
day, like, doing all the things, then you're
not a good Latter Saint. Right? There's the
identity battle. Right? I mean, is there anything
comes to mind for an adult who's in
that state, like, or a Bishop who sees

(43:06):
someone in that state that, I mean, what
do we do?
I think one thing, of course we deal
with them as we weep with them
and we recognize the struggle
and we see ourselves
in that, in that individual.
And
we going back to, you know, what I
mentioned just earlier,
these things are designed to help us build

(43:29):
a good relationship with God. Right. And make
us more godly.
We talk about the checklist,
you know, all the time and that this
isn't a checklist gospel
and that if you're reading your scriptures
every day,
but it's just stressing you out, right, and
and it's just so heavy on you. Mhmm.
You know what? Maybe what you say is

(43:50):
instead of reading it, I need to listen
to some song that's going to be very
uplifting to me. That's going to help me
connect with deity.
And that's going to be part of my
deep connection with God today. What really matters
almost at the end of the day is
that these patterns are helping us to create
deep connections with God
in ways that help to sustain our faith

(44:12):
in Christ
and sustain us along the covenant path.
And so
what are those things for
you that help you, that enable
you to do that?
Is there a moment where, you know what,
this is just so stressful and maybe I
need to do something a little bit different
and find refreshment

(44:33):
in what we're doing. So I,
you know, for a living, I teach about
the gospel.
And I was talking with another person who
was do who who also teaches the gospel
for a living
and they were super stressed out with things.
And they're like, you know, I know all
the gospel answers. You know, I do this.
I read the scriptures all the time. I'm
studying the scriptures

(44:53):
like I should,
because I know all this stuff,
be able to do that.
Well, and as we got into discussion, you
know, some of their realization
was,
you know what? I'm doing this intellectually
and I know these things intellectually,
but my relationship
might be suffering.
You know, I could know everything there was

(45:14):
to know about my mother. And I could
tell you everything there was to know about
my mother and you would know all these
things. I could write books about, you know,
my mother and then But that doesn't mean
that I or you have a relationship with
her. Right. It's about the actual connection
with the divine
that makes the big difference.
And it's us working for it. If we're

(45:35):
not feeling it right now, we recognize that
there are periods in our lives that we
might not feel that as strongly.
So we keep on keeping on, you know,
but we're working for those moments, those quiet
moments, those moments of pondering
where
actually having that
deep connection with the divine.
We're going to the temple to try to

(45:56):
enable deep connections with the divine. We're reading
our scriptures
to
have deep connections with the divine, to have
those moments of touching the divine
so that we can get that relationship.
Right? It's not just this intellectual exercise that
sometimes
And it's not just these behaviors
that we do that we sometimes think are
it. The behaviors are important and they can

(46:18):
facilitate that connection, but that's really where it's
at.
And us transmitting that to the person and
us feeling that for ourselves is really where
the refreshment.
Yeah. That's where the refreshment comes is in
those moments. Yeah. I love that. Just that,
know, the obviously, the temple is an intellectual
experience from time to time and, you know,
information's being discussed and principles are are there.

(46:41):
But some parts you think like, well, what
about the celestial room? Nothing intellectual
is going on there. I'm not, like, listening
to something. I'm just, like, sitting. Like, why
are we wasting our time here? Right? When
in reality, it's so relational to sit in
God's house on his sofa and just be
there. Like, with that moment of the spirit
that's there, not to learn something, but to

(47:01):
be there. Right? And so sometimes I think
there is those moments where you have to
think, okay, I'm doing a lot of stuff.
I'm learning a lot of stuff. I just
need to take a breath and lean into
that relationship that you talk about. That's awesome.
I remember as a missionary, it was then
Elder Oaks came to our mission and, he
says, we read scriptures differently than anybody else.
I'm paraphrasing him. He says, because we have

(47:22):
the Holy Ghost with us,
we can then get this conduit, kind of
this
conduit to us to heaven
and that
the scriptures then become a mechanism to create
that conduit
to heaven and to feel the Holy Spirit
with us.
And if we think about our scripture study
as, oh, this is helping me to

(47:43):
access that conduit,
that is going to be so much more
healthy than thinking, if I do my scriptures
today, I'm going to score 10 points lower
on my depression scale, whatever.
Like that's Yeah. Somehow that's going to be
it. Like because I did that,
am I doing this so that I can
be in a place
where conduits to heaven can be open? And
it's not gonna happen every day. Right. But
we regularly

(48:04):
be in that place where those moments can
happen. Yeah. Yeah. Reaching for it. That's powerful.
Well, before wrap up, what what are the
next big questions or other things you're you're
discussing that maybe we'll have you back on
for? I mean, are there big questions in
your research that you're leaning towards? You know,
one thing that we have been looking a
lot about is
women in the church. Oh, cool. We have

(48:24):
had
for
ever since we've been collecting data, not just
us, but data and historical data, women are
more religious than men. And what we're finding
is that might be starting
to flip. And so we're really interested in
women's experiences
today. And this is in Christianity in general.
We're seeing a worldwide thing, not a worldwide

(48:44):
thing, I should say, more in the West,
that's starting to change. And so we're wondering
a little bit about, okay, well, how are
women doing in the church and what can
we do there to better serve them? So
we're actually starting
a project to look at that now. Cool.
Alright. There's your tease. So Jez will be
back. Well, just to end, what what final
encouragement would you give to church leaders?
I would

(49:05):
say thank you for what you're doing. You
literally are saving lives
by what you're teaching.
And then of course, minister to the one.
Find those that are having a difficulty with
the teachings of the church
in any way, right? Are they experiencing toxic
perfectionism when they hear these kinds of, when
they hear about standards, right? Again, it's a

(49:26):
natural inclination.
We shouldn't back away from the standards. We
should talk about them, but then also make
sure
that we're understanding how people are interpreting these
things and that they're not interpreting it in
a way that would indicate that God doesn't
love them or that there's not infinite hope
for them if they make mistakes.
It's a beautiful thing to be able to
teach the Lord's standards

(49:47):
and
at the same time communicate the love that
God has for them, that you have for
them, and that you can be that conduit
of God's love
to them, to call them to greater and
greater heights.
Now that we've reached the end of the

(50:07):
episode,
I quickly want to thank you for supporting
the leading saints podcast.
There's so much content out there to consider
and you picked this one. If leading saints
has made an impact in your life, we
would sure like to hear about it at
leadingsaints.org/contact.
And if you could quickly text or email
this episode to a leader, you know, I

(50:27):
bet it will bless their life. You can
mark off your good turn daily and let's
even call it ministering. Okay. Maybe not that
far, But seriously, thank you, and help us
share this content.
Remember, the Jody Moore presentation about youth and
mental health is waiting for you at leadingsaints.org/fourteen.

(50:53):
It came as a result of the position
of leadership which was imposed upon us
by the God of heaven who brought
forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus
Christ.
And when the declaration
was made concerning the own and only true
and living Church upon the face of the
earth,

(51:14):
We were immediately put in a position of
loneliness,
the loneliness of leadership
from which we cannot shrink nor run away,
and to which we must face up with
boldness and courage
and ability.