Zion Today, Not Someday | An Interview with Dan Duckworth

Dan Duckworth speaks, teaches, and writes on leadership, power, and systemic change. His forthcoming book, The Leader in Chains (spring 2026), challenges conventional ideas and calls for a radical rethinking of leadership—and how it is developed. You can read his Zion Leadership essays at danduckworth.substack.com or connect with him on LinkedIn. Links LeadingSaints.org/Zion DanDuckworth.Substack.com Share your thoughts in the Leading Saints community Transcript coming soon Get 14-day access to the Core Leader Library Highlights In this episode, Dan Duckworth engages in a thought-provoking discussion about the concept of Zion and its implications for leadership within the context of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. He begins by addressing the common resistance to transformational leadership in church settings, noting that many members feel uncomfortable with the idea of change-making. Dan emphasizes that the principles of leadership are deeply rooted in scripture, particularly in the teachings of Jesus Christ. He articulates the need for a "faithful vocabulary of leadership" that resonates with church members, moving away from secular leadership jargon that may not align with their beliefs. Dan challenges the traditional view of hierarchy in church leadership, asserting that God's ways are different from man's ways. He references the Doctrine and Covenants, specifically highlighting that in Zion, there shall be no king or ruler, suggesting that true leadership should not be about hierarchy but about unity and collaboration. Dan elaborates on the idea that Zion is not merely a future state but a present social condition characterized by a people who are of one heart and one mind. He encourages listeners to reflect on their own communities—families, wards, and councils—asking whether they operate under a hierarchical structure or if they embody the principles of Zion. He argues that the work of building Zion requires breaking free from systemic forces that constrain behavior and perpetuate the status quo. Dan also explains that leadership involves creating space for individuals to use their gifts and talents, rather than adhering strictly to established hierarchies. He emphasizes that leaders should discern the needs of their communities and empower others to step into leadership roles, regardless of formal titles or positions. Dan shares a scriptural example from the Old Testament, recounting how Moses responded to the concerns of Joshua regarding unauthorized prophecy. Moses expresses a desire for all people to be prophets, highlighting the importance of recognizing and nurturing the gifts within the community. He contrasts this with the story of Aaron and Miriam, who are chastised for their desire to lead without the proper authority, illustrating the balance between recognizing divine gifts and maintaining order. Dan underscores the significance of understanding the difference between appointed leaders and true leaders. He notes that a bishop, while holding an ecclesiastical role, may not necessarily be a leader in the transformative sense. Instead, he should act as a facilitator, allowing the gifts of others to flourish and ensuring that the community operates in alignment with God's mercies. Dan concludes by addressing the challenges faced by those who feel called to lead in a Zion-like manner, particularly in the face of institutional resistance. He encourages listeners to be mindful of the timing and approach when implementing change, suggesting that leaders should work quietly and effectively to build Zion without drawing unnecessary attention or backlash from the established hierarchy. He emphasizes the importance of direct communication with the Lord to ensure that one's actions align with divine guidance, ultimately reinforcing the idea that building Zion is a collective effort that requires courage, discernment, and a willingness to embrace the messiness of commun...

Episode Transcript

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Hey, Everyone, welcome back to another episode of
the Leading Saints podcast.
This one's gonna be a little bit different,
at least the format,

(01:46):
because we got a lot of good things
happening over at the Leading Saints community, and
I bet many of you are thinking, what?
What's the Leading Saints community? Well, if you
go to leadingsaints.org/zion
or go to the show notes, we'll link
to it there as well. We have a
full online community where people are submitting questions,
starting
discussions, we're having live streams. I mean, it

(02:07):
is an interactive experience,
a a community of Zion builders gathering together,
talking about leadership and best practices and everything
in between. So we invite you to check
it out and see what's going on there.
And then this
recording that you're about to hear is actually
from a live stream that we did between
me and Dan Duckworth, who's a member of
our board of directors and just a great

(02:28):
leadership mind. And since it was a live
stream, we had, sort of a live studio
audience tuning in, and so you're gonna hear
them ask questions as well. But we have
a fantastic
informal but very insightful discussion about building Zion,
and, Dan is really a thought leader when
it comes to this topic and and concept.
And so, really great discussion, one that will

(02:49):
lead to many others. So listen in, check
it out, and, we'll see you over there
at the Leading Saints community. Here's my interview
with Dan Duckworth.
Dan, this could be, like, more informal. I

(03:10):
know, I never prep you with these things,
at least fully, because I know that you're
ready to go. I've rehearsed this at several
lunches with you, and you always have something
to say. If this is just lunchtime banter,
we're good. Let's go. That's cool. Well, maybe
let's just jump into
these articles. We've been sharing them
via the leading states newsletter,
kind of a focus on Zion. You have

(03:31):
a deep passion about Zion. I love learning
from you about Zion, hearing you talk about
Zion. There's a future book, I'm sure, in
your future
about Zion and these things. So
was this just from your regular come follow
me study? You kind of these principles jumped
off the page at you? Yeah. So this
is kind of a long time in the
work. So
what I'll say is that

(03:51):
whenever I talk about transformational leadership and change
making in the church context with people who
are members of the church or in a
church setting,
there's this instant pushback, this instant resistance, like,
there's something ungodly
about this.
And people get a little bit uncomfortable
about these themes.
And yet as I'm reading scriptures,
you know, for the last ten years, I'm

(04:13):
like, this is in here. Like, this is
all in here. This is all the way
Jesus led and the way Jesus is asking
us to lead.
And so for a long while, I've had
this idea that what I need to do
for myself really is that I need to
build a faithful
vocabulary
of leadership in the church,
meaning that I want to draw from the

(04:34):
scriptures and help people see, okay, a lot
of my language and vocabulary comes from the
leadership development industry or through, or through other
fields of study. And it's not landing well
for members of the church, especially those who
are more in traditional leadership roles and callings,
especially lifelong people who have been in those
callings. It doesn't land well for them. So

(04:56):
I started to experiment a little bit with
a few things here and there, like pulling
scriptures out. So for example, I'll just give
you, I'll give you an example. You know,
I'll say something like this.
There's no hierarchy in heaven. There's no hierarchy
in Zion. And instantly people will go, what
are you talking about? Like, God loves hierarchy.
Like it's all about the rungs on the

(05:16):
ladder. And if you just look at the
order of the church,
it proves that God loves hierarchy. I'm like,
no. No. No. If you look at the
way we're doing church or the way that
we've interpreted
the doctrines and even the handbook
and culturally the way we're doing it, yes,
all you see is hierarchy, but that isn't
God's way. K? So I can just start
from a very theoretical,

(05:37):
spiritual,
theoretical perspective and say, God has clearly said
my ways are not your ways. My ways
are higher than your ways. Well, what is
man's way when it comes to organizing,
if not hierarchy? Yeah. For thousands of years
under any kind of model, whether it's a
theocracy or a democracy, whether it's corporate life
or a feudal system,

(05:58):
everything is about power and getting to the
top. And those who have power and those
who are on the top dominate those who
don't. That's hierarchy.
And we replicated that in the church,
but just without using any sort of
explicit
scripture that's out there because we can go
into that. Just even that concept alone that
God's ways are different and higher than man's,

(06:19):
therefore,
his way of order and structure and leadership
must be different than even the best that
man has to offer. Yeah. And that's the
tough thing is that just like most things
with heaven or mortals striving to get to
heaven is that mortality makes it really complicated
and tricky. Right? Because,
I don't know. I mean, obviously, there's a

(06:40):
hierarchy in the church and kinda feel like
it should be that way. We talk about
authority and keys and things, and so we
project that onto heaven. Right? Well, even in
the church, that's what we've created, but that's
not doctrine only what's there or even in
the handbook. The court has a system of
stew of stewardship,
of councils, of governance,
of
emergent leadership,
and we have not lived into that, but

(07:03):
that's what's there. So as I'm reading the
Doctrine and Covenants, I'll give you an example.
I'm reading the doctrine and covenants and it
says very explicitly, and I, by the way,
I've written probably two dozen of these
essays at this point through the doctrine and
covenants. And so my mind no longer remembers
specific scriptures.
Yeah. If people need to go to like
the specific section in verse, I'll have to
stop and pause and and look that up.

(07:25):
But it says in the Doctrine and Covenants,
in Zion, there shall be no king and
no ruler.
No king, no ruler. Now you could read
that and you could say, that's a prophecy
of a future day, that someday we won't
need a king or a ruler. But if
you understand Zion not as a future
state a future, you know, city in Missouri,

(07:46):
but if you understand Zion as a social
condition of one heart and one mind, of
a people who are united in the cause
of Christ
and who have no poor among them. Poor
not necessarily always meaning
financially poor,
but meaning in terms of status and distinction
between us. So if you understand Zion is
that social condition and now you hear that

(08:08):
scripture that says there is no king and
no ruler in Zion, all of a sudden
that becomes a pattern in its principle. And
you start to say to yourself, in my
family, is there a king? Is there a
ruler?
Even if that is a benevolent ruler,
in my ward or my quorum or my
ward council or my stake, is there a
ruler? Is there a king? Because if there

(08:29):
is,
there is not a Zion condition.
At best, there is a benevolent hierarchy, but
that's not Zion. And so now all of
a sudden in the Doctrine and Covenants, we
start to pull out this language
that helps us understand, okay, it's one thing
to say there is no hierarchy in Zion,
but now specifically the Doctrine and Covenants is
saying
the pinnacle of the hierarchy doesn't exist in

(08:50):
Zion. If there's no king and no ruler,
there is no hierarchy. We're talking about something,
a way of being and a way of
order and structure that's completely different. Yeah. And
it's so easy with Zion, I think, even
in our culture. Zion is oftentimes a someday
thing or it's almost like a fringe benefit
of once Christ comes back and puts everything
in order, then we gotta kind of get
it to experience this Zion thing rather than

(09:11):
this motivating factor or this goal of hit
the here and now. Right? And And that's
kinda where we we really miss the boat.
Yeah. And I think right. So people will
say, like, well, no. The scriptures are pretty
clear that Zion is a someday thing. Like
Sure. There will be this moment of millennial
reign, you know, Missouri, Jackson County, whatever it
is. Right? And what we have to say
right from the beginning is we're not saying

(09:32):
no to that. We're not saying that's wrong.
We're saying yes, and.
So there will someday be a community
or,
you know, an ecclesiastical
society there called Zion. But the word Zion
has meaning
outside of that context. It has for centuries.
And so, for example, when you look at
the use of the word Zion in the

(09:53):
Old Testament, mostly Isaiah is the one who
uses it. It's almost always referring to a
place
in Jerusalem. And I'm not some Jerusalem scholar,
but there's a hill called Zion
related to the Temple Mount. Right? So when
he's talking about Zion, he's almost always
referring to the enemies of Israel, and he's

(10:14):
saying that hill right there is proof that
we're going to dominate you, that we're going
to overcome you, that we're going to whatever.
And so you could say, okay. Well, what
is special about that hill? Because it was,
potentially, it seems like it was called Zion
even before the temple was built there or
built around it. I'm not even sure how
the temple fits in there, but somehow that
hill is related to the temple.

(10:34):
So there's this word in this concept Zion,
like, somebody gave that place the name Zion.
Well, why? Well, God himself, Jesus himself has
told us what Zion means irrespective of the
city. Right? It's a people who are of
one heart and one mind, and the Lord
called his people Zion. Right? So there's this
concept
within God's
metaverse here. There's this concept

(10:55):
of a social condition
in which people are coming together. They're united
in purpose
and in cause,
and
God gives it a name. That condition is
called Zion. Now we could name a city
in Jackson County that's coming in the future
or that was potentially going to come in
Joseph Smith's time. We could name that Zion
after that condition to bring to our mind

(11:17):
and to hearken us and to orient us
toward that condition.
But, fundamentally, that word Zion was first used
by the Lord to describe that type of
community, which was built anciently
by Enoch and by others
and is being built today
all over the world. Yeah.
Dan, like, why is this such a leadership
focused topic in your mind? So when you

(11:41):
start to understand that Zion is a social
state, you also have to understand that there
are conditions that prevent Zion from happening naturally.
And these are what I sometimes call the
hidden forces or the systemic forces that kind
of control the way that we work together.
There's a reason why there's a similar vibe
and a similar experience in almost every workplace
you go to, in almost every school classroom,

(12:03):
in almost every ward, in board council, because
there are these systemic forces that work on
us and orient our behavior.
And those systemic forces are innumerable,
but some of the broad categories include ideology,
culture,
structure,
power dynamics.
These are things that work to kind of
control the way that we show up, and

(12:24):
we do this like fish and water. We
don't know that this is happening to us.
The fish doesn't know how the water is
changing its experience. It's just swimming in water.
It doesn't even really know the water is
there. That's similar to us as we go
about our organizational life. We think we're free
independent actors, but the truth is our behavior
is constrained and channeled in ways that we

(12:45):
don't even see. And, you know, we're coming
up with words these days like unconscious bias
and other things like that to kind of
describe this, but we have to recognize that
we're being forced or channeled into a certain
way of gathering and working together.
Zion,
therefore,
never does Zion just happen.
Zion is always the result then of the

(13:07):
work of breaking free from those forces
and creating something different. Well, if you understand
what leadership really is, we just described leadership
right there. Leadership is the work of breaking
people and groups free from the status quo
and enabling them to build something better and
beautiful and glorious.
And Zion is always the ideal of every

(13:30):
leader. And they might not call it Zion.
They might call it a high performing team,
or they might call it a positive organization,
or they might call it a glorious society,
or Martin Luther King called it a beloved
community.
But Zion is always that aspiration. You you
look at your family or your ward council
or your Relief Society presidency, and you you
have this thought. We could be amazing. We

(13:51):
could do great things if only
we could break free from those forces that
are channeling us to the status quo. And
that's why I say Zion is always a
leadership project. And in a church, we're so
steeped in the ecclesiastical
project. We're so steeped in the work of
changing hearts for their own individual salvation, which

(14:12):
is obviously
godly work and the work of the gospel
and the church. But the work of Zion
building is not that work.
It is not the work of helping people
become disciples. It is the work of transforming
structures and systems,
liberating people
from what is binding them structurally and systemically
so that they can build this other kind

(14:33):
of community. And that has a critical place
within the theology of Jesus Christ,
but we often take those concepts that Jesus
has given us and the examples that he's
given us, and we try to channel those
back to the ecclesiastical,
to the preaching, to the repentance,
to the covenants, the, you know, the individual

(14:54):
covenants with God, and we lose sight of
this other work that Jesus was asking us
to do. And not all of us, but
some of us to do. Yep. So, Marty,
Ray, do you have any questions you wanna
you wanna ask, or you just like listening?
No. I appreciate the thoughts. I'm trying to
digest it. But Yeah. I guess this idea

(15:14):
of I like what you're saying. I guess
I'm wondering how do you have a how
do you not have a leader of some
sort? How do you not have a benevolent
leader?
Just everyone just knows,
I guess, in Zion, everybody
does what needs to be done? Yeah. That's
a great question, Ryan. And, yes, basically, you
just answered it. But let's let's kinda break

(15:34):
that down a little bit because
Jesus gave us some pretty interesting
template or blueprint in the Doctrine and Covenants.
And so let's just look specifically at section
46, which was when I read it this
time, I was just like mind blown. How
did I never see this before? K.
So, you know, section 46 is the section
on the gifts of the spirit, and that's
where every Sunday school lesson ever goes. And

(15:55):
that's why we don't notice these other things
because we focus on the gifts of the
spirit. What gift do you have? What is
the gift of testimony? What is the gift
of healing? Right. We go to that, but
the Lord prefaces that list of gifts
by basically saying,
I am going to show you how you
all can work together in a Zion like
fashion.

(16:16):
And point number one is that he has
given these gifts according to his mercies,
but there are differences of administration.
Okay. So just kind of breaking that down
a little bit. I've bungled that because, again,
it's been a couple weeks since I've been
in that section.
But when the Lord talks about differences of
administration, he's basically acknowledging right then and there

(16:37):
that there are different
approaches to leadership,
to management, to administration
in each ward, in each week,
in each council.
Right? And the problem that we often run
into is when we're constrained by the normal
forces, we fall into patterns, to structures, to
ruts,
to orthodoxy.
We create orthodoxy

(16:58):
and there becomes a way to do things
in the name of efficiency. So just think
of a word council. Right? We're gonna do
the agenda the same every single week. Well,
that is not God's way. That is man's
way. And, frankly,
this is where I get could get into
a little bit of trouble, but, you know,
there was a book that came out by
Elder Ballard, Counseling with Your Councils,
and it was helpful

(17:19):
for a group of lay leaders who didn't
have
strong business
acumen and administrative backgrounds. It was helpful to
say, hey, you should have an agenda. You
should think through timing. You should write but
it was if you read it, it's very
much a business oriented book, like how to
be efficient running meetings. There's nothing in the
scriptures

(17:40):
that tells us about that. In fact, God
says here, there's a difference of administration. There
should be a different feeling and vibe and
structure and approach in basically every ward council
because it should be led by what the
Lord follows with next. He says according to
the mercies
that I have, something like the mercies I
have towards the children of men. So think

(18:00):
about that. Mercy
is about meeting people's needs. It's about recognizing
where there's pain, where there's suffering, where there's
brokenness,
where there's cracks. Right? And it's saying, let
me meet you where those needs are. So
now God is saying, okay. There's going to
be those needs
in every unique
family, in every unique

(18:21):
business team, in every unique department. There's gonna
be those unique needs, and you should be
matching those needs, meeting those needs, discerning
those needs. And then he says, by the
way,
in order to do that, I've given everybody
in the community,
on the council, in the family. I've given
everybody a gift and to some multiple gifts.

(18:42):
And if you knew how to enable and
allow those gifts to flourish in their time
and in their season,
the needs would be met. And so, yes,
it is. We would just know how to
do it, but it's according to the mercies
of God, to the needs that are there
of the children of men, and it's according
to who's got what gift for what time
and for what season. K. So now let's

(19:04):
take that a little bit further because the
lord does.
He lists out a couple of the gifts
right there, and then very pointedly, he says,
and I've given you a bishop
or someone to discern
the gifts.
K? A bishop
is a structural
role.
K? Yes. It's a priesthood office, and, yes,
it has eternal significance and judging Israel and

(19:26):
all that stuff. But, structurally, what God's talking
about here in the community, he's saying there
is one appointed
as the
person in the hierarchy. Right? So there is
a structure
in our organizations.
But very specifically, he says his role
is to discern whether those gifts be of
the spirit

(19:47):
or of some other spirit.
K?
Now that's a critical
distinction because
if a bishop starts to think it's his
job to decide who gets what gifts,
where those gifts get applied,
how those gifts get leveraged,
etcetera, etcetera, which gifts are more valuable than
others,
when I don't like your gift, etcetera.

(20:08):
As soon as he begins to do that,
he becomes
a ruler. And we've already talked about how
there is no ruler in Zion. So God
has specifically said here, the role of that
person is to discern whether what is being
claimed is true. So if I show up
and say
or not even say, but just through my
actions and
exhibiting a certain gift, maybe a gift of

(20:29):
healing.
And I'm I'm doing that gift in the
community. The Bishop has a role
to discern is that gift coming from God
and from the spirit and from a place
of love and righteousness and
virtue and help and all those things. Right?
Praise really lovely of good report.
Or is there some other agenda here?

(20:52):
Is there some, you know,
somebody trying to get something out of people?
Is there somebody trying to
puff themselves up and to make right? So
you guys get the idea.
Okay. So we could stop there, but God
doesn't. He goes one step further.
After describing this role of the bishop,
he says
he describes another role,

(21:13):
and he calls it the head.
He says, and sometimes
it is given to another or to someone
all the gifts that there may be a
head. Okay? Now think about it. We're talking
about the body of Christ here. He has
just described the head
separate from the bishop. Hierarchically, we think, oh,
yeah. The bishop is the head or the

(21:33):
the father or the mother is the head
or the CEO is the head or the
project manager is the head. But he says
no. It's to one who is given the
gifts,
many gifts,
who is the head. Now the role of
the head with respect to the body
is to
provide the mechanical function and and, you know,

(21:54):
what is this happening? What is you know?
So there is some coordination and there is
a moment of leadership here. So this is
where the distinction comes. You gotta understand that
when we say there's no ruler,
there is a leader in Zion. And the
leader
might be the bishop if the bishop is
the one who has all those gifts at
that time. But the leader also might be
the Relief Society president. And in a given

(22:16):
moment where there's a given need, the Relief
Society president might show up, and she might
see how all this works together
and how all this needs to work together
for the benefit of the community.
The bishop might be blind to it. It's
not his job to own that. It's not
his job to control that. It's not even
his job to sanction that. It's his job
to stay out of the way and to

(22:37):
simply recognize when this is happening through
the spirit or if it's happening for some
other motive.
Now it may not even be the Relief
Society president. It may be somebody with no
formal authority.
Now I'm not talking about someone standing up
and saying, hey. We're we're gonna do Sacrament
meetings differently, or I'm gonna change the way
we administer
the ordinances, or I'm not talking about that.

(22:58):
I'm saying there might be a need in
the community.
For example, let's say somebody in your community
gets in a tragic accident,
and they're in surgeries, and their family is
falling apart, and there's all these things. There's
now a need in the community.
We default to the bishop and the Relief
Society president. That is not a godly structure.
That is a hierarchical structure. They may not

(23:20):
be the right person
at the right time with the right gifts,
either to fill the need or to recognize
how the body of Christ could come together
in this moment. That might be someone who's
a neighbor.
Right? That might be someone who simply has
a gift that God has given them for
that moment, and they see things.
What's tragic in our communities
is those people feel it. Those people feel

(23:42):
the moment, and they feel I
want to lead. I am being called to
lead in this moment, but it's not my
place.
And so they pull back.
They defer
to an overworked,
overwhelmed
hierarchy,
and then we get limited responses,
and we sometimes get misguided

(24:03):
responses
instead of the flourishing that could happen
if we allow the gifts
to work according to the mercies of God
with the head. Like, it doesn't always say
there's a head, it says sometimes, right, With
the head showing up and leading, but then
that head would also fall back when that
moment is over. They wouldn't claim authority. They

(24:23):
wouldn't say, hey. Because
because I was captain,
Moroni in this moment, therefore, I should be
captain of the armies forever. It would be
more like, hey. In this moment, this was
Tiankam's moment to shine. This was Lehi's moment
to shine. This was more Moroni's moment to
shine. And when it's no longer my moment,
I fall back. Right? And the head would

(24:44):
help without all that. And then there's a
bishop because we do have a church, and
we do have some structure in the church.
There's a bishop that can say with some
authority, hey. This feels good. This feels right.
Now what is necessary for a bishop to
be able to do that? He must be
stripped of ego.
He must be stripped
of the Orthodox

(25:05):
interpretation.
He must be stripped of the need to
control,
to maintain order, and to maintain appearances.
And in our current environment,
in any church environment or any business environment,
that is incredibly
difficult
because all of those forces are leaning in
in on him and saying, you have to

(25:26):
have the answer.
You need to be the expert. You have
to have all of this under control. And
if you don't, there is a danger to
you, and the system might come down and
crack down on you.
A few thoughts came to mind, Dan, as
you were talking there of you know, I'm
just thinking back to, you know, in the
old testament times where the the tribe of
Levi, right, were the priesthood holders. And it

(25:48):
wasn't this feeling of, like, oh, the tribe
of Levi. Wow. They're like the leaders. Right?
Like, they're the the hierarchy. We have to
yield everything they say. No. They had a
role and gifts, like you said,
to facilitate
They they had a role institutionally to facilitate
the ordinances
of the priesthood. Yeah. But they weren't necessarily
looked at as like, oh, that means therefore

(26:08):
you should be the sole leaders of the
community. Yeah. So I my point is you're
not dunking on priesthood keys here or anything.
They they have a role and a purpose
primarily with the ordinances and the the saving,
you know, ordinances and salvations through the priesthood.
Exactly. So there's a there's the ecclesiastical
work to be done, which is temples,
ordinances, covenants. Right? That's critical work that the

(26:30):
church is steward of. There's a separate work,
which is building communities that are worthy of
the presence of Jesus Christ. And that work
is not limited to the Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter day Saints, and it's not
even limited to the Church of Christ. It
is definitely all part of the kingdom of
God, but it's not limited to faith based
institutions.
Mhmm. Right? That work is happening
in your soccer team with your you know,

(26:51):
if you're a coach of a soccer team
or if you're in a class in school
or if you're a manager at work or
principal of whatever or a department chair at
a university,
that is godly work where you're building communities
that are worthy of the presence of Jesus
Christ,
and that's different from ecclesiastical work. Now the
thing is is any work we know is

(27:11):
gonna be enhanced,
and the efficiency and the productivity
and the impact of that work is going
to be dramatically
transformed
if it's done
with a community
that's formed on the basis of a Zion
principle, the Zion community. So even your business
team, if it's operating one heart and one
mind with principles of justice and love and

(27:33):
peacemaking
and unity and all those things, it's gonna
help your business activities tremendously. Well, likewise,
the work of the church with covenants and
priesthood and and ordinances and temples and, you
know, family history and all that stuff, that
work is gonna be dramatically
transformed if it's done by those who are
one heart and one mind. So there is

(27:55):
an important aspect of this is, like, we
as leaders
leaders, not appointed leaders, but anointed leaders.
K? Appointed means the hierarchy puts you there.
Anointed means God called you to do that.
So if God called you to be a
leader and a builder of community, but you're
not currently in the hierarchy of the institution,

(28:17):
you still are called to build community. God
put that on your heart.
Now the system
says, oh, no. No. No. No. No. We
do not want anybody who is not sanctioned
by the system
to have any kind of license
to do any kind of leadership or community
building. And so it starts to marginalize
you and make you feel like you're a
problem. You're a threat. You're going to create

(28:40):
disorder. You're going to violate some
sacred covenant. That is not God talking to
you. That is not even really if those
are words coming out of people's mouths, it's
not even really their words. That is the
culture. That is the ideology.
That is not the gospel.
That is being put on you to marginalize
you,
to fragment
the community, and to maintain the status quo.

(29:03):
But this institution here,
this holy institution called the Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter day Saints, it needs the
Zion builders. It needs the change makers so
that this work can truly be transformed.
Yeah. That's really what we've discovered through Leading
Saints is those individuals who feel that aims
to to do more, to step up, and,
contribute. Right? Let me give you just Yeah.

(29:24):
Go ahead. People because, again, what I just
said, right, I guarantee you, there are people
who hear that and they're instantly like, woah,
this is, this is pushing the lines. We
don't do that in the church. We have
order, we have structure, we have, you know,
protocols and yeah, we do. So one of
my first scriptural examples that really caught my
breath, this was like

(29:44):
eight, ten years ago. Now I was part
of, I was a stake clerk. So, I
was, you know, part of a stake presidency,
but I was meeting with these guys on
a regular basis. And we had a transformational
stake president who was trying to empower
his high councilors to
basically
level up, like, 10 levels
and think of themselves more like

(30:05):
peers to the stake presidency
and true
agents of the stake presidency, not functionaries,
not guys who have assignments to carry out,
but he was trying to help them see
themselves. And the phrasing was to be the
eyes, the ears, and the mouth of the
stake presidency,
to hear as they hear, to see as
they see, and to speak as they speak.

(30:26):
And the things he was asking them to
do were
unheard of, you know, the kind of things
he was putting on them. And so he
was, you know, we were in these conversations
frequently as a state presidency. And as I
was searching the scriptures for justification of this
model,
the Lord just led me to one. And
it was Moses.
And again, it's been a long time since
I've read it, so I'm going to butcher

(30:47):
this. But it's Moses,
and they're out, I think. So here's what's
happening. He's trying he's trying to get the
elders
to approach
God at the mountain or something along those
lines. And so they're away from the camp,
and and they're doing this work, and it's
not going well, and he's really frustrated.
And then these two messengers come running up,
and they're tattle tellers

(31:08):
or what I call in in my work,
I call them the guardians. They're the guardians
of the status quo. And they come running
up to Moses, and they say, Moses, Moses.
These two guys that got left behind, they're
prophesying
in the camp. They're, like, literally getting words
from God and giving them to the people
as though they are prophets.
And Joshua, who's number two in command, who

(31:30):
ends up becoming a great leader and a
great prophet for the church, he has the
institutional response.
He immediately says to Moses, my Lord
forbid them. So he appeals to Moses's sense
of status
and hierarchy.
He says, my lord in other words, I'm
bowing to the throne. I'm kissing the ring.
I'm playing the part that I'm supposed to

(31:51):
play. He says, my lord forbid them. And
Moses's response is,
why would I forbid them?
Would to God that all the Lord's people
would be prophets or something to that effect.
In other words, Moses isn't afraid of the
fact that someone was given a gift,
and he was discerning. He was playing that

(32:12):
role that the Lord talks about in D
and C 46.
He was discerning
and saying, no. No. No. This was godly.
I wasn't there. I didn't see it, but
the spirit is telling me this is good.
Despite the fact that I have the guardians,
the tattletallers,
coming to complain, they probably stirred up the
people at the camp as well. Despite the
fact that I have my lieutenant
who's appealing to hierarchy and structure and status,

(32:35):
Moses plays the role that God gave him.
He says, no. No. This is good. And
would to god that all the people would
be prophets. K?
Now you're gonna counterbalance that with the very
next chapter. I think this is in Deuteronomy.
The very next chapter,
you've got Aaron and Miriam, Moses's brother and
sister,
who get a little bit frustrated that Moses

(32:57):
is having all the fun. And, you know,
they kinda wanna be prophets, and they kinda
wanna do the thing too. And so they
start to step out, and they are immediately
chastised by the Lord. And
I forget what it was. Was Miriam made
a leper? She was given leprosy or something.
There was something that happened as, like, this
punishment and the symbol. And the Lord basically

(33:19):
says, don't ever forget
that I have called one prophet.
And so, I love that because here you've
got Moses saying, would to God that all
the people were prophets. And then you've got
the very next chapter, the Lord through Moses,
ostensibly, it doesn't really say, but we assume
this comes through Moses. The Lord saying through
Moses, there's only one prophet.
And so, yes, there's one prophet with a

(33:41):
big P, a capital P, but would to
God that we were all prophets, meaning the
Lord has given us all gifts and we
were all exercising them freely according to the
mercies of God and to suited to the
needs of his children,
but with one in the institution,
in the church called to be that head,
that person to say, is this of God

(34:03):
or not? With the tattletaleers, he said, hey.
This is from God. With his own brother
and sister, he said, hey. This is not
coming from God. Your motives aren't pure. Yeah.
I'd think of the parallels of doctrine and
comers from David Whitmer receiving revelation and that
kind of being booted, but also Oliver Cowdery
wanted to be involved in the translation process.
Like, there's these moments of, like, the invitation
to step in and also, hey, there's a

(34:25):
boundary here, just so you know. Right? We
do we do have prophets for a reason.
Ryan, you had asked a question. I went
on a long,
circuitous answer.
I'm curious how that landed with you. Yeah.
So, I mean, what I heard from that
or what I would take away is a
couple thing.
One, I guess, is the importance of
figuring out what my own gifts are and

(34:46):
helping others
understand
and leverage or not leverage,
but
use their gifts.
And then I think as a leader,
if I'm in a position of leadership,
getting away from the ego,
not having any ego.
What comes to mind a little bit is
this idea that we hear sometimes

(35:06):
of revelation being scattered among us, I guess
realizing that the Lord can work through
everybody with their gifts. And so then as
a leader, I'm I don't have the ego.
I'm helping others identify
and use their gifts
and,
I guess, just discerning
if it's of god or not.
Yeah. And I would say this is in

(35:28):
my world. I make a very clear distinction
between what we mean when we say leader.
A leader is someone who is leading. They're
someone who's making change.
They may or may not have a formal
appointment
within the system, within the organization.
A person who has that appointment may or
may not be leading. It depends on what's
going on. Right? So we would be much

(35:50):
better off saying that a bishop has an
ecclesiastical
role, which is actually quite limited. It's to
be a judge in Israel. That's the bishop's
ecclesiastical
eternal function.
But organizationally,
we have decided to give him also
a management function.
So a bishop is a director of a
ward. He's a manager of a ward. He's
an administrator of a ward. He is not

(36:12):
inherently a leader of award. He may or
may not have any leadership gift at all.
He may not have any leadership talent at
all, or he may have it in times
and in seasons and in places and in
moments.
A wise bishop
would recognize that his role, number one, is
to be the judge in Israel
to do that role well. And number two,
as a manager, to not manage according to

(36:33):
the hierarchies
that men have created and glorified,
but to manage according to the pattern that
the Lord has set, which is to be
a discerner.
And I'll use this word because this is
more contemporary.
His job is to make space.
His job is to make space for the
gifts to rise and to flourish. And the
immediate answer is always, wasn't that anarchy? Isn't

(36:55):
that messy? And the answer to that is
yes. But God
likes the mess. That's his approach.
It's so not our approach, but he likes
the mess. Why? Because we are creating.
We are growing. We are not trying to
perform. That's the big mistake that most our
our managers in the church and in any
organization make is they're worried about the performance,

(37:18):
hitting the KPIs,
performing the script, making the soccer meeting look
like the way it's supposed to look.
And because they're so worried about the performance
and the pressure that comes with that, they
don't make space for the mess.
Just read the new Testament,
the four gospels.
Jesus is basically just stirring up mess left
and right. And when people ask him for

(37:39):
order, he says, no, not going to be
order, not going to give it to you.
Just live with the mess and lean into
it and grow through it. And he's basically
saying, I've given each of you a gift,
and
it will come out in the right moment
and in the right ways. Yeah. That makes
sense.
Awesome. Well, Dan, what are we missing? Anything
else? And, again, these articles, you're touching on

(38:00):
various principles,
you know, in these articles, but, I mean,
this is a good broad foundation of of
what you're trying to get at is this
this shift of mindset. Right? Yeah. I would
say, you know, someday there will be a
book. It'll probably be in a couple years
because I'm working on a different book right
now. There'll be two two different books, but
the one will be this, the stuff I'm
working on right now, which won't necessarily be

(38:23):
like a cohesive,
you know, argument that's building. It'll just be
more of like a, Hey, here's some scriptural
language
that clearly
shows and evidences a different kind of Zion
and a different kind of leadership
than what we are comfortable
with right now in our present day
construction
of the way we do church.
In the meantime,

(38:43):
if you want to follow it, if this
kind of stuff gets you guys, you know,
Ryan, Marty, anyone else who's listening, I'm putting
these on Substack right now. So if you
want to go to danduckworth.substack.com,
I've already loaded like probably 20 of them
in there, and I've got another 10 that
are already written that I just need to
load in there. And then, Kurt, to your
earlier question, yeah, it's just as I'm as

(39:04):
I'm going through the come follow me, and
I'm hitting these. I'm spending time thinking it
through and working it through, and then I'm
writing these essays and I'm putting them up
there. And
the immediate purpose is just, I want to
have this language. Like we just had this
conversation
in the context of the scriptures of the
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.
And if you want that, go read those.

(39:25):
And you don't necessarily have to see it
exactly the way that I do, but at
least every single scripture that I've highlighted
should be something that you should wrestle with.
And you should say, wow, what's this really
talking about here? For example,
when it says
oh, let me just give you an example
real quick. Okay. When it says that there

(39:45):
shall be glory and terror in Zion, what
does that mean? If you're building a community
that's trying to be Zion, what makes their
terror there? Or it says in another scripture
that the inhabitants of Zion will be terrible.
What does that mean? I mean, I'll tell
you what I think it means in a
different conversation,
but what do you think it means? Because
if you're building a community that isn't terrible,
then you haven't built Zion because God says

(40:08):
that the inhabitants
will be terrible or terrifying is probably the
word that that we would use today.
And I can't find my other posts, so
I I can't run you through a couple
of the titles, but just the idea that
there's no king, there's no ruler, the idea
that, you know, one you already posted Kurt
was which the Lord says, I'm already among
you. You just can't see me. Yeah. Right?
So what does that mean that we're building

(40:30):
communities that are ignorant
of the presence of Jesus Christ?
And how do you build a community that's
aware of it? Well, it's not looking for
him on paintings on temple walls. It's looking
for him embodied. He already gave us that
scripture, right? Where he says, I was among
you and you saw me not. I was
sick and you didn't come to me. I
was,

(40:50):
lonely and you didn't invite me in. I
was in prison and you didn't visit me.
Right? Well, are we building communities that are
doing that? And how are we doing that?
Because it's not Zion yet. So anyway, danduckworth.substack.com
if you wanna check those out and give
me feedback and conversation like this. I love
it. And just as we wrap up, then
I'm just thinking of the person, like, where
do I start with all this? Where's the

(41:10):
application? Or what if I get resistance from
the hierarchy? Right? Or my, you know or
they listen to this, Dan, this could never
happen to my ward, and I can give
you 10 reasons why or whatever. Like, you
know, we feel so powerless sometimes in our
informal roles as leaders. Yeah. Well, I'll give
you one straight from doctrine and covenants again.
This one just kinda, like, blew my mind
when I saw this. When the Lord says

(41:30):
something to the effect of, don't let the
world know what you're doing right now.
And the subversive nature of that was just
like, it was so
obvious.
Right? You're building Zion, you're building something the
world will crush.
And so you need to keep it under
wraps. You don't need to show up in
your ward and say, hey.

(41:51):
I have decided that I'm gonna build Zion
in this ward and because that will be
immediately crushed. What you do is what Jesus
did. Right? He went about doing the healings,
doing the miracles, doing the work, and then
for quite a while, told people,
don't tell anyone about this. I don't want
the attention.
The roots are too

(42:13):
weak.
I need to let them grab a hold
first
and trust that this tree can withstand the
storms that will come before those storms come
too early. And so practically for us, you
know, if you feel the call to lead,
if you feel the call to build Zion,
whether you're a bishop or not, like, for
those of you who are familiar, I've written
recently about a bishop who felt the call

(42:35):
and was doing the work as a bishop,
and the system still crushed him, totally
annihilated him. And practically speaking, I mean, I'm
not giving him any advice, but practically speaking,
we might look and say, well, tactically,
maybe
you needed to be a little bit more
under the radar first. Maybe you needed to
show the fruits first before it got a

(42:56):
little bit too
big, because then the system came down really
hard. And then if you don't have
authority, if you're not in that appointed position,
you know, then I would say
you can't fall into the trap of bowing
to the throne, of kissing the ring, of
going and saying, like, hey. I'm I'm getting
your approval

(43:17):
to do this because approval doesn't come. And
even if you think it comes, it's like,
oh, yeah. I love this project. Go do
this thing. The minute you actually begin doing
it, the way the spirit is leading you
to, the way that contradicts the status quo
and the way the system is, the system
will come down and crush you. And it
will do it with a smile, and it
will do it with the words of affirmation

(43:40):
and bringing you back into,
you know, the structure in the system, but
it will gut you. And you will walk
away going, I no longer feel safe. I
no longer feel empowered.
I no longer feel like I can do
the things God is putting on my heart
to do. So you have to recognize there
is a time and a place. Jesus said
it. There is a time and a place

(44:00):
for being careful
about how
you are public about this.
Now I will also note here, Kurt, there
is a massive burden on the change maker
to check ego,
a massive burden, because
typically, we rely on those system signals and
cues to tell us if we're virtuous or
not. And when we're no longer getting those
or we're getting contrary

(44:21):
signals from the system,
now you're in the position of saying, is
this priestcraft?
Am I setting up a church unto myself?
Am I trying to take over things that
aren't mine to do? And you're now in
the role of having to have one on
one direct communication with the Lord and saying,
am I okay?
Is this what you're asking me to do?
And you gotta take those signals

(44:43):
directly from the spirit.
And when there's a time and a place,
you have to walk into the heat of
the moment and you have to bear the
heat. You have to take the risks. You
have to hold the weight. Because I can
promise you, if you don't do it, nobody
else will. And you'll sit around and hope
for the next bishop or hope for the
next, you know, word to come down from
on high with the next institutional policy change.

(45:05):
And you'll you'll hope that it's gonna change
everything. And then just like we are today,
whatever it has been five or eight or
ten years, whatever it has been since president
Nelson came out with those rash changes that
we all were waiting for. And we're sure
we're gonna change everything.
And yet we're all still here saying, actually,
pretty much still the

(45:30):
same.
Now that we've reached the end of the
episode,
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(45:50):
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(46:22):
It came as a result of the position
of leadership which was imposed upon us
by the God of heaven who brought
forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus
Christ.
When the declaration
was made concerning the own and only true
and living Church upon the face of the

(46:42):
earth,
We were immediately put in a position of
loneliness,
the loneliness of leadership
from which we cannot shrink nor run away,
and to which we must face up with
boldness and courage
and ability.