June 1, 2025 • 44 mins
Alli and Melisa discuss dating expert Matthew Hussey's theory on the levels of a relationship. Also, how to have those hard, "defining the relationship" conversations -- and finding your power when you don't get the answer you're hoping for.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
I'm Ali. I came out after twenty years of marriage
and I have three kids.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'm Melissa and I have two kids, and I came
out at thirty seven after an eleven year marriage.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
This podcast is about coming out later and the struggles
and victories that come with it.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
When coming out feels like the end of the world,
but it's really just the beginning.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
This is the Lesbian Chronicles. Welcome to the Lesbian Chronicles. Hi, Hi,
are you coming to Atlanta today?
Speaker 2 (00:40):
You know I'm a maybe right now?
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Okay, you're a maybe. Well, the weather does kind of suck.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
The weather sucks. I was debating on going to dance church, yeah,
which I've never been before.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Really, I've never been. But it looks really fun.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
It does look fun, and it also looks very intimidating.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
But I'm okay with your dance moves.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Come on. You know one thing I've I've been like
diving deep on in my brain is that I've always
been thought that I wasn't like a musical person. Like
that's kind of been like drilled into my head as
a kid.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Not a musical person. What do you mean, like like I.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Don't have a rhythm like that kind of thing, and
I'm realizing that that is a narrative that.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Oh, you're realizing you do have rhythm.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
I do.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
I always have a little bit of Okay, I've seen you,
I've seen you dance really well, and I've seen you
dance not well. And what it seems to come down
to for me is your alcohol intake.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
I feel better the more that I drink.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Right, it's inversely related.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
But the thing is my sister growing up. My sister
has great rhythm. She's a great dancer, and so it's
like I was being compared to her and it made
me look like but I also didn't like I don't
I didn't know how to move my body.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Okay, let me let me say something very funny. So
last weekend we had the Urban Pie Party where a
bunch of lesbians came out. Okay, this was It ended
up being a huge party of lesbians all in one place,
and the DJ was playing every song that you dance to, okay,
I mean Spice Girls to like Madonna too, I mean
(02:15):
every single song you knew. And so the lesbians are
out there on the dance floor and during while it's happening,
I'm like, Wow, this is like really, first of all,
it's a blast. Second of all, these people are great dance,
Like this is some great dancing. Well then so I'm
taking videos, I'm like getting all this content, and then
I rewatch it the next day and I'm like, oh
(02:36):
my god, these people are terrible. What I mean, like
everyone that I thought was so good was like worse
than the last one.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
That is hilarious.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Yeah, there was almost nothing salvagible literally, so it does
go to show that like you're just you can't you
can't tell.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
I mean, you can't tell. And I think that's just it.
It's more so just like letting loose and not giving
a shit.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Yeah, there was plenty of that. There was plenty of that.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Another reason why, and I mentioned this on the episode
with Burgaden, is like I just don't do well with
like coordinated dances, Like I need extra time. I need
like the teacher to pull me aside and like slow
it down, take extra time to.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Teach me Grapevine to the last like everybody else catches
on really quickly, and meanwhile I'm.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Like still like four steps behind, like oh well that
we weren't doing any of that kind of dancing.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
But it was just like fucking comical watching these people
because we all thought we were like on fire.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
That's amazing, and we were not. I love it though.
It sounds like a great.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Time it was. Yeah, if you're listening, listen, this is
going to be a monthly Kirkwood lesbian night. It's going
to be I think we're doing it the last Saturday.
Kind of think of last Supper, last Saturday, so last
Saturday of the month, and it's going to be I
think June twenty eighth this month Urban Pie Kirkwood.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
I'm like, June twenty eighth, Oh, I think that's a
week and I have my kids. Why are we do
you think?
Speaker 1 (04:07):
I know, I think I do too, But I think
it'll just be a night once a month that I
get a sitter or bring them down here and leave them,
leave them on the side of the road. Leave them
on the side of the road. I mean it's a
mile from here, Like we can be gone a couple
hours and come back. Yeah, we're a movie on for
these guys.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
I know. I'm like, I'm traveling so freaking much this summer.
I'm like my mind is blown with because I feel
like every time that there's plans I'm like, oh wait,
I'm gone.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
I know that's why you and I have to have
our party we do.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
I know we need to talk about that because I'm
also very close to pulling the trigger. I'm buying my
own DJ equipment.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Please do it? Oh my god, then you can DJ
the parties.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Dude. I'm like, I'm I'm I'm diving deep on this
and this is kind of like tying back into the
music thing. I'm like, I can fucking do this.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
I feel like, definitely, I'm going to tell you something.
The play list that we played that was a total
blast we made. Yeah, so, I mean she mixed it
or did whatever you do. But it was like, I'm
sure she was looking at this list like you really
want me to play this shit? And we're like, really,
we do, Yes, Yes, we do. Absolutely no. I think
you would crush it if you were the DJ, you know,
(05:18):
I would come hype. I'd be your hype girl. I'd
be at the front of that table.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
You come watch that not my comedy.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Well, you're DJing. I feel like I would have more
control over because I could be like, dude, can we
do journey?
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Now? Can we move this? Well? Speaking of comedy, I
do want to plug real quick. Yeah, Doe Second Friday
Pride event on June thirteenth. Okay, we are hosting a
comedy show. I'm hosting a comedy search show. So we've
got a few open mic spots. We already have some
really great people signed up.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
What if I just said I want to do it,
I'm just going to show up and do it. Okay,
I'm kidding. That was a joke. See you, I'll let
you go so funny.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
I'll let you do it.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
You prepare, be prepared for these people to boo you up.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Say we're doing that.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
How long would myste have to be?
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Like three to four minutes, three to four minutes.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
I gotta be funny for three to four minutes. So
you can basically just tell like one story.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
I think nothing, I know.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
I think I could do this actually, Okay, okay, June thirteenth, Yeah, okay,
Well get excited, Atlanta as Okay, we got to help
these people because we're running out of time. Yes, okay,
back to gay, back to gay.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Back to gay. I mean that was kind of gay.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
That was kind of gay. So Melissa and I both
are always in constant communication about ourselves about messages we
get about DMS, and then we happen to both listen
to this podcast that we were like, God, this really
resonates with a lot of the messages we're getting, and
maybe even in our own lives, were like, it felt
very relatable. So why don't you tell them what kind
(06:54):
of we're centering our episode about?
Speaker 2 (06:57):
This was an episode an interview on Mel Robbins Podcas
asked with Matthew Hussey, who is a relationship expert.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
I kind of like we are, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
I was gonna say, I don't really know what his
credentials are.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Well, he doesn't have any credentials. That's very true.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Robins doesn't either. Sometimes we just come with great brains, yes,
and and knowledge and we like to share that knowledge.
That's right, totally on the same level. But Matthew Hussey,
I really do like his work. He especially for being
a man. I know that sounds kind of like rude.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Damn, but can you imagine if a man said that.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
I mean especially, but it's it's twenty twenty five, It's
about time we start saying stuff like this. But he
is very like open minded and present, emotionally aware in
a way that's admirable.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
And hasn't always been and owns that right exactly.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
And so he was talking about how there's four different
levels to a relationship, and level one being that there
is an attraction, and that's just like a one sided attraction.
You see someone walking down the street and you're like,
that person's hot, or it could even just be like
let's say a celebrity that you're never gonna meet, but
you find that person attractive. Level two is there is
(08:12):
a mutual attraction. You two meet and you feel an
attraction and you have chemistry. You know, like I've had
this happen a lot in my life, you know, just
like being at a bar or something and seeing someone
and being like that person's attractive, they find me attractive,
and you think it's gonna be something, right, You're like,
maybe this is the start, but then.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
There's yeah, it's like if you're building a future already.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Yeah, But then it proceeds to what would be a
level three, and that's mutual commitment, and it's just not there.
One of you is not in a place to date,
or you kind of realize like maybe we don't have
as much in common, or or you life just a line.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Yeah, or just like, I think that is where the
breakdown happens a lot, because it's like many people, including
my elf, many times we're just looking for connection. You're
not necessarily looking for this like full Some people will
say I am out there looking for my person. I
am actually I am out there looking for my person forever.
But there's plenty of people who might think that they are,
(09:18):
but really what they want is just a connection. They're
not really looking to be settled down committed to someone
and they still want to go out on Saturday with
someone else. They might flirt with someone else on Sunday.
They're not they want connection, not relationship. So you're you're
not aligned and what the goal is at level three.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Right, And that's perfectly okay, totally No, There's a lot
of people that that's just where they are in their life,
you know. I think, especially people in their twenties, that's
where they're at, and that's I think that's perfectly acceptable, especially.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
During that time if you're honest about it.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Yeah, if you're yeah, exactly, do you.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Feel like about it? Melissa? In your own life, Like,
don't you feel like you've been in situations where you
felt like you were aligned with this person, and then
you find out a year later, you're like, dude, what
the fuck am I still doing with you? You're not
on the same level.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
With me exactly, And that's just because neither of us
was having that hard conversation.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
And why would you not have the hard conversation.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Because you're afraid they're going to leave.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Yep, they're not going to like me. I'm difficult, yeah, needy, difficult.
I'm needy. I'm asking you for reassurance. I'm asking you
to hang out again. You haven't asked me. I'm waiting
around on Saturday because I kind of want to hang
out with you, but you haven't asked me what I'm doing.
And so now I'm like, God, do we have plans
or don't we have plans? I better make plans with
(10:38):
Melissa because this person may not want to hang out
with me. They haven't asked me, you know. And it's
like I want to scream, like if I want to
be with you over the weekend, you're going to know
it likely on Monday.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
So it's just like, but we can't. We don't want
to face that reality.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
No, because it's scary, because you're right you're operating from
a place of scarcity a lot of the time. I
know I am yep, And you're like, Okay, if I
have this hard conversation and I say, like, you're not
giving me what I would want in a relationship, like
can we shift to something more committed? You're afraid they're
going to leave?
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
And then the whole thing is, so what if they leave?
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Yeah, that's it. I mean, that's it, like d like.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Period, Yeah, if they leave, that takes away all the
anxiety that you're experiencing in the meantime of waiting and
hoping that they show up for you.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
And then how about also what we talk about all
the time, which is time is my most precious commodity.
Time is my commodity, and if you're wasting my fucking time,
you are wasting my biggest, most precious commodity. So it's like,
if I'm to say to you, we you know, are
we hanging out? Or where are we? What are we?
And you, you know you clearly aren't on the same
(11:52):
level with me. You just did me a favor because
now I can move on and I'm not wasting more
of this commodity on somebody who's never going to be
where I.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Am m M. And if you have that hard conversation
and that person either gets mad or shuts down or
can't offer you answers, concrete answers, those are your answers.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Yeah, you just got it.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
When someone clams up like that, it's because they can't
the feelings aren't there.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
It's interesting to me because I do know that some
people can like lie in those situations. They can fake it.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Yeah, right, because they're scared of losing yet they are
scared of losing it.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Yeah, and they can pretend and fake. But it's like
at the end of the day when they're choosing other
people over you to prioritizing like taking this trip versus
going on a trip with you, and that's happening like
on a consistent basis, they're not for you.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
No, they're not for you. And someone over the I
won't say when and I won't say who, but said
to me once like I see what you're doing and
kind of called me out, like I am trying to
have a plan with you and you continually kind of
put me off, or maybe you don't call me for
a day, or maybe you don't return my text for
(13:10):
a long time. I see what you're doing, and I
understand the state that your heart is in right now.
But I'm going to be very clear with you. I'm
not doing this like game really with you. Like we
can be friends, we can hang out. Maybe another time
in the future, you'll be into this, but what it
looks like right now, I'm not doing with you anymore. Yeah,
And I remember like thinking like that was so fucking
(13:32):
attractive to me, that somebody took care of their needs
more than just put up with bullshit.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Yeah, that's so powerful. It is like there, like hearing
something like that, I am like, God, damn, I wish
I had had that power in me a couple of
years ago to say to my then girlfriend that was
not meeting my needs whatsoever and was avoiding any hard
conversation about it.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Right, And give me some example, like I think one
you gave me before we started recording that I think
was real was like things like Melissa dated someone who
went out of town for an extended period of time,
came back and then really had no plan to see
her and they were in a relationship, and it was
very upsetting for Melissa. She said to me like why
the fuck am I not the first thing she's doing
(14:20):
it first stop, your first stop, even from the airport,
like I'm close. And I remember in my heart like
saying to you, like that's data, dude, Like this is data.
But it was like for you, it was just like
what the hell, But it is data.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
It's like data.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
That's that's the action. Forget what they say that was
the action.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Yeah, And that was definitely like a turning point for
me because I was just like, you've been gone, you
had very little access to communication during that trip, and
you're coming back and I know you've got life, you've
got other things to address whatever, but like, make a
plan with me. I'll come to you. Yeah, we can
(15:02):
do something. And it was and that was the case too.
I had not made any plans for when they were
coming back, yep, because I wanted to be available right
and then I was not in the plans for like
three four days out when I was just like, dude,
like what in the fuck right? And it's like when
stuff like that is happening, and even in the beginning
(15:24):
of a relationship, when you're in the early stages of dating,
if you're finding that you are the one that's always
reaching out, sending the text yep, making the plans, and
that person's taking a long time to respond to you.
It's twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
Yeah, like you don't your phone is in your hand
all the time, not sending a carrier shit exactly.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Like take the time to fucking respond when someone doesn't
respond to me for like two to three days. And
this happened about a year ago. I had asked someone
to hang out. They replied to me like to to
three days later and said sorry, I you know, I
got sidetracked and I did I forgot to respond to
this is the invite still open? And I said yes?
And like, looking back on that, I'm like, dude, you're
(16:11):
such a pansy.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Yeah, and like, no, no, it's not I'm moved already. Yeah,
I'm not a priority, Like I'm not a priority because
your other thing fell through exactly. Yeah, And you hate
to be harsh because I also think like in that
Matthew Hussy episode, he mentions like, you can't be like
pinning people down month one of like I want a relationship,
(16:32):
You're you're testing and feeling out like do I like
you do? I want to be with you? But I
think it's also fair to say, and this same person
who called me out sort of said, the beginning of
a relationship is very fragile, Like this is a fragile time,
like you you sort of do there is an expectation
that you're gonna show up a certain way in the
early days that show me that you're you might be
(16:54):
compatible for me. Because if you're somebody who doesn't respond
for three days and it's the beginning of the relationship,
I also see that as a failure because it's just
like you clearly aren't that interested in me, and it
is fragile at the beginning, right, So I don't know
what that line is of like it's fragile at the beginning,
but it's also like I don't expect you to commit
to me month one.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
That's very true, Yeah, very true, Like there there is
some like leeway there. But I think the data there
is if someone is taking several days or a few
days to respond to you, they're they're just not that
into you, or maybe they don't know you that well yet. Okay,
but if you've gone on a couple of dates and
that's still the level of like reaction that they're giving
(17:39):
you the urgency the agency, Like it's not it's they're
not into you.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Right, I think too, Like it's again, like it's worth
repeating that, like if somebody likes you, you should know
it like you. They there should already be an effort
to see you the next Like I've gone on a
dislike level on this scrum. I mean, they finish the
date and then they say do we have another date?
Like I'm looking at can we do this again? I
(18:08):
enjoyed myself. I would like to do this with you again.
And to me, it's like that's not only is that
you're a badass for saying that, because it's brave as fuck,
but on top of that, it's just you're securing the
next interaction, which to me, you know, says this is
somebody who is they're putting the effort in.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Yeah, and then I get to respond exactly and love
on the spectrum is such a good example of people
operating in a way that you should operate.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
And the thing is like these people, because they have autism,
they've been instructed on how to interact with people in
a way that like typical people are not instructed. And
we need to be honest no, I know, Like I'm
sitting there taking notes on the fact that the way
that Tanner engages in conversations, Oh my god is fantastic.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
It is, and even just showing his cards on how
excited he is. Like have you ever had somebody tell
you they're hanging out with you and they're like, just
stop the conversation and just say, like, God, I really
like you. Yeah, Like it's like wow, Like to me,
it's like, there's no I love that. I'm like, you're
so brave and cool, Like it's cooler to do that
(19:20):
than to act like you don't care or you're a
blase or too cool to be excited about this date.
You're too cool to be excited about being out with me. Yeah,
Like there's something that's I'm so put off by that.
So it's like I like people that do like I'm
I really like you, or I'm having a good, really
good time, Like I like.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Just engaging in the conversation, listening to what the other
person says and asking them more questions about that topic.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Like yeah, if.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
You're not into someone or if you're just not a
good conversationalist, I guess like you're not engaging in a
conversation with someone. Yeah, if you find that you're the
one that's like asking all the questions, Yeah, that's that's
more data too.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
I know, have you ever been with someone know who
is engaging in the conversation but they don't. It's almost like,
I don't know, like they feel like they're just they're
continuing on with their their stuff. But they you respond,
but they just keep going, and it's almost like there's
no cadence, Like there's a natural cadence to a conversation
(20:19):
where you give a little bit. I give a little bit.
It doesn't necessarily have to be about me. It might
be me asking you more about you. But there's a cadence,
And I feel like some people just don't. They're not
good at the rules. Like I'm sitting there and I'm thinking,
you're not good at this.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
You're not good at this.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
You're not going to read the rule book. Read the
rule book.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Now. The other part of Matthew Hussey's attraction situation here
is the level four, and that is after you've had
that mutual commitment conversation, okay, and you're let's say you're
both on the same page. You want to commit to
this but are you compatible okay?
Speaker 1 (20:57):
And how do you know that?
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Which? This is? This? This part's interesting to me because
it's like I would feel like the compatibility needs to
happen around level three. I guess you do need to
be like, Okay, we're in this together. Now, do we
have the same life goals? Like or do we both
want to be monogamous in this relationship? Do we both
(21:20):
you know, what's the plan for the future if this
works out? Like are we going to live together or
do you prefer to live separately? Do you want to
go live overseas one at some point like later in life?
Like does that align with what I want?
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Those kind of conversations, and then I think just day
to day shit, you know, like how messy are you?
Do you pick up after yourself? I saw a video
recently where this couple has separate bedrooms.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
It's becoming so common.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
But like, the woman's bedroom was like impeccable, nice clean. Yeah,
the guy's bedroom was a fucking disaster. It looked like
a teenage boys room. And the comments were like this
is grounds for divorce.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Yeah, yeah, that is such a turn off.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
It is, And I'm like, I could not be with
someone who is messy and like dirty.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Yeah, no, hell no, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
I guess that's something you can figure out pretty early
on if you get to someone's.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Place, Like I think too, Like I had a conversation
with someone recently about like I'm sort of a traditionalist
in that, like I think, once you're married and now.
Then this person pushed back, like, well, you got divorced.
I'm like, yeah, I got divorced because I'm gay, and
I wanted him to go live his gay, his straight life.
I wanted to live my gay life. We agreed to
(22:34):
get a divorce because of that. Like otherwise, he was
a great man. If I had been straight that marriage,
I would have continued to work on and make it
as good as I could in any event, But one
of the disagreements we had was that I believe that
when you're married, like I think about like my parents' marriage,
my mom drank. Everyone knows this, but my mom was
an alcoholic for several years and my dad stayed. And
(22:59):
I had a friend who said to me, like, she
left her first marriage because her wife drank, No problem,
no problem at all, that's that's your business. But I
was thinking, like I personally am very I don't want
to get divorced again, Like I don't care like I
to me, it's like unless you're physically beating me or
like something, I'm being emotionally abused. I feel like there
(23:20):
would be a long term attempt at therapy and fixing
and staying because like a lot of people probably would
have left my mom, my dad. You know, my dad didn't,
and it's like he would say, thank god I didn't
leave your mom, Like, this is the love of my life.
This is I'm so happy married to your mother. She's
the best thing that's ever happened to me. I love
(23:41):
that you kids come home and we're here together, we're
a family. Like I appreciate that in them, and I
think they went through many years of hard and but
they stayed together, and I just that is a value
of mine. So I to me, some people would say
that's awesome. That's not necessarily you know, I don't necessarily
think that's as important. You know, if there's issues that
(24:04):
come up and they get really hard, it might be
that was a season and I'm moving on, and that
is amazing. I appreciate that that's an independence in you
that I don't necessarily have. I to me, it's like
the thought of getting divorced a second time is so
horrifying that I need almost like a traditional partner who's like,
I don't know more, I guess intertwined and that you
(24:27):
really really divorce is like the last thing. Yeah, it happens.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
And I think that, you know, that's a good part
about the compatibility compatibility. I'm the same way. I never
want to get divorced again. Yeah, that's it's awful.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
It's awful, And.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
I would have our marriage would have worked one hundred
percent same if it wasn't for this whole gay thing.
But I think let's say.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Your partner had a problem with alcohol for five years.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
That does sound really tough.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
Yeah, like for sure, Okay.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
I think there's a lot of like factors at play,
like is this something that's being remedied, is it something
that's being worked on, Is it getting worse or is
it getting better?
Speaker 1 (25:07):
It was getting worse any state.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
I think that part is really different.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
That's what I'm saying, Like, these are really difficult things,
and I appreciate when people leave situations because they have
to take care of themselves and they you know, I
appreciate that I just am. I don't know that I'm
a minority in this. I don't know that I'm leaving.
I don't even know that I'm leaving. If I get
cheated on in a marriage, I think I probably.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
I don't think I could. I could not handle.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
I think I would, like really try to go to
a lot of fucking therapy to figure it out.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
I feel like that's a dark cloud that would just linger. Oh,
like I could. I don't think I could do that.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
And because you your wife, don't cheat on me though exactly,
please don't.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Like oh. But this kind of leads into the other
part of what mel Robbins and Matthew were talking about is,
you know, be ready to walk if you don't get
the answers that you're looking for, decide whether or not
this relationship is a good investment for your time and
your energy.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Say more about that, because that's really important, Like be
ready to walk, Be ready.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
To walk, because so often we'll be like, Okay, I
need to have our conversation, but you don't know what
you're going to do with the answer. You're ready to
have the conversation, but you're not ready for the answer,
Like I think when you're getting to the point where
you know you need to have the conversation, you also
need to prepare yourself for that answer. And if the
(26:38):
answer is they're not giving you what you want and
what you need and what is going to be a
good investment of your time and energy, you need to
be ready to say then this isn't for me, like
and but also have the the confidence. That's the thing.
Like listening to these conversations that they were giving examples
of what you should say in these situations, I was
(27:00):
like caking myself. I'm like, I wish I could have
said these things three years ago.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
You have to be so clear, I think too before
you go. And I always tell my kids, like have
talking points, Like it doesn't mean you have to rehearse
a script, but you should have like three or four
like talking points of like this is what needs to
get across in this messaging. It might be like, hey, Melissa, listen,
we've been going out for three months. I really like you.
I am ready to like really take this to the
(27:26):
next step, Like I want to be in a relationship
with you. I'm looking for my forever person. Where are
you right now? And then you can tell when they respond.
Are they kept, you know, sort of clear on that
or is it more like like they're not clamming up
or I'm still processing, you know, whatever it is. And
I think that's data, you know, like if they want
(27:48):
to be with you or they're feeling the same and
looking for a relationship, the answer will be clear. I
really like hanging out with you too, I too, am
looking for my forever person. I think you could be.
Let's continue down this road together because I'm really into this.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Nothing's definitive right now, but let's move forward. And if
you don't hear that, be prepared to say I've really
enjoyed our time together, but I think it's time that
I take my time and energy and use that towards
looking for a person that is looking for the same
thing that.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
I am, and not doesn't want just connection, wants a relationship, right, And.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
You don't have to be mean about it. It doesn't
have to get like. You don't have to, you know,
say they wasted your time or anything like that. They didn't,
they didn't, and well sometimes they do.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
That's on you, right, but that's on you.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
That's just it. And something that Mel said in this
episode that really struck me was don't turn yourself into
the loser.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
Don't don't be the victim.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
Don't be the victim. Don't be angry you did this
to me being like, oh my god, I was. I'm
so in love with you and I just wanted a
future with you. You don't need to say all there,
you don't.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
And you you nothing can be done to you that
you didn't allow. Like it's like if you're mad, you're
mad at you, Like you have the conversation, there's no
need to go on like you wasted my time all
that bullshit that you said, Like that's so true. It's like, really,
the classy thing to do is I wish you so
well and maybe down the road the stars will align
(29:26):
and we'll meet again. But otherwise this has been a blast. Goodbye, yeah,
hard line, hard line. And then what happens when two
weeks later you get the text I miss you. It's coming,
it's coming.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
It happens.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
It happens every time.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
It might be a few months, it might be Saturday night,
but they always fucking come back.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
I always fucking come back.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
But that was like some divine intervene intervention.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Listen they're laughing at you.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
They're laughing at you because they always fucking come back.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
They always come back.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
And this is your other opportunity.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
To this is the most turn herself into the loser.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Yeah, it will be the dumb girl that's been like
tricked into being invited to prom only to be like
left by your date when you get there.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Right, Okay, so they miss you. Now, this person that
you've already told this isn't you know, we're not going.
They don't want to be in a relationship. They've moved on,
but now they're lonely, So they miss you. How do
you respond to that? And then I'll tell you how
eighty percent of my friends respond right exactly.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
The response that Matthew offers is the one that his
wife actually gave to him. Now, wife, I think at
the time it was a girlfriend. They had split up
or something or not been in communication for a few weeks,
and he did the I miss you yep, And she
said something along the lines of like, well, that's interesting
because what your actions are not aligning with someone who
(30:59):
would miss me? Right.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
I love that so much. It's like, that's weird. I'm
not criticizing you. I'm just saying the way you're acting
isn't lining up with what you're saying. It's basically, I'm
calling you out and you can't do that. I'm too
smart for this. Basically what she said is I'm too
smart for this, yeah, for this game.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
And what a powerful fucking thing to say in that situation.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Yeah, but so many people need that, that that reassurance
and they're excited, they're adrenalines now pumping. They got the
text from the boy the girl that they like, and
so then it's like, I miss you too, Yeah, and
it's just like you. That is where you give away
all your power, all your agency right in that in
that moment, because now the person knows you're right back
(31:44):
where where they had you.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
That's what you want to avoid because it's like, you know,
take your power back in the way.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
But if you do miss them too, you.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Can say that. I think you can say that within
the context of that that text of saying it's weird
that you're saying this to me because your actions don't align.
I do miss you as well, but I'm going to
need someone who shows up in a different way than
what you're giving me right now.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
Yeah, And I think two, like, it's really important to
put yourself in these situations with someone like that. First,
like what would I tell I always think about what
would I tell my daughter? Like how would that look
if this was happening to her, What would I want
that to look like? And that that should be the
same advice I would give myself. I mean, I wouldn't
(32:27):
want her letting some guy come back two weeks later
and weasel back in, somebody who wasn't willing to give
her what she asked for and wanted. Not that there's
anything wrong with him, it's just she's looking for something else.
And so I think that's you know, you want to
make sure you're doing that for yourself too.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
Yeah, And I think, you know. The thing to keep
in mind is that these examples that we're using, they
can be applied to the beginning of a relationship, but
they can also be applied to the end. And for me,
this resonates more more for the end of my relationship.
The beginning of my relationship was we're both in it,
like we're you know, all the communication, all the feelings
(33:08):
are laid out like so in it. It was towards
the end the things shifted and one of the things
that I remember thinking about was we're different, like we
have a different connection. I know that we're stronger than this.
I know that this is just a bump in the road,
and we're different than all the other relationship advice stuff
(33:28):
that I that would apply.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
In the situation.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
And we are not any fucking different. It is not different.
But I don't need to learn about the connection that
you used to have. It's not there anymore. And that
person's not showing up in the way that they used
to and that right there is your fucking information, your data, whatever.
And when that keeps happening and they keep casting the
(33:52):
line and pulling you back, like you need to grab
yourself by your own fucking bootstraps and keep.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
The fuck out of there and take care of yourself.
And the bonus to that is it's fucking attractive. And
if you do it enough times, you learn that skill.
It's like fake it till you make it in some
ways because you do that over and over and then
you get to a place of like there is no
other way to react, like there. I mean, I think
(34:19):
about the woman I was with my catalyst, and you know,
if she would say jump I'm like, how high, Like
where do you want me? Where do you? Of course
I'll drive to you. Of course I'm not. Yeah, I'm
free whatever. It's like that woman doesn't exist anymore, and
it's just little by little interactions with different situations. I
think you grow into a place of just like, this
(34:40):
is the expectation for how I'm going to be treated,
and there really is no room, Like I don't. Anyone
who knows me will tell you that there is no room,
Like I have a certain expectation and you meet it
or you don't.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
It's so interesting to me because of how well I
know you, yeah, and how powerful you are, and you
are the kind of person that says exactly what you're thinking,
and you're putting up with exactly zero bullshit and you
this strong fucking woman.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
Yeah, we're in a relationships like that, not that long
ago either. It's like it can happen to anyone, and
I think it's a that's that is my point too.
It's like it's such a learning curve of like practicing
this skill. I mean it's like even like at the
very end of that toxic relationship, I was starting to
get some power. I was starting to kind of come
(35:28):
into my own and I remember her trying to have
a physical like she was trying to see me again,
and I had left a bike there, so she was like,
I need you know, if you're gonna come get your bike. Bike,
it's always the bike, the lesbian and the bike, the bike.
You got to come get your bike. And she wanted
to see me, and I think she felt like if
(35:48):
I can just get Ali here, like I can win
her back, I can like be charming and I'm going
to get her to like do the thing and then
she's going to fall back in. And by that point
I had gotten to such a place of like I'm
not I'm untouchable now, like you have taught me to
be this, like you turned me into this. Like it
was almost like I've got so much therapy. I had
(36:10):
you in my life then, And I was like, I
don't there's no way I'm coming to get that. I'm
sending people to get the bike because I'm not even
going to give you the privilege of having me there.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
Yeah, exactly. And I think there's also a lot of
people who are late in life. We are people pleasersh Yes.
And I think that there's so much people pleasing. That
comes into play with dating.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
Mm hmmm.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
And you know you're not you've been taught in condition
to not put yourself first. Yeah, and it is something
that you really have to undo. It is so fucking
common in this community. I know I did it. Like
that's how I ended up married at twenty six to
a man, even though great, lovely man and we had
a great life ahead of us. I was doing that
(36:55):
in so many ways for my parents to be like, Okay,
it's okay that she lives with this man, you know, right,
like and in their eyes being in this committed marriage
and relationship and it being okay that we lived together.
I remember feeling like okay, yeah, but reality is I'm like,
would I have gotten married if there weren't all those
(37:16):
like pressures on me rights?
Speaker 1 (37:18):
Decades of that bullshit?
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
It's like, also, do you ever notice are you ever
around people who are like oh sorry or like sorry,
like they're just so apologetic all the time about everything,
Like there that is that people pleasing? Yeah, And it's
just like I it's decades of like you said, like
were your parents you want them to think what you're
doing is okay, and you do that over decades. It's like, God,
(37:42):
no wonder why we're all just like trying to make
everybody happy all the time. And I think it's exhausting.
Speaker 2 (37:49):
It's exhausting, exhausting.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
So I just kind of stopped.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
So I'm just like not doing that. I'm just like,
I'm really not like I think, especially like thinking back
on who I was, even like a.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
Year ago, you know, oh, you are drastically different.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
I would have put myself in really uncomfortable situations. Yeah,
and now recently something came up where I'm like, I'm
not going, yeah, not going.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Sorry, I'm just not going to be there, so yeah, sorry.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
But but it's also like I know what I need
for my own mental health. Same, and it's not that.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
Yeah, and let me tell you something again, like that's hot.
Like when I see women who know what they need
and they get their fucking needs met, whether any in
the bedroom, the house, the whatever, the emotional connection, the
answers they need. When they're getting their needs met, I
am paying it. I'm dialed in because it's also that's
kind of rare. So it's like I love that I'm
(38:49):
attracted to that versus like the martyr or like the
victim or the person like just showing up because they
got to show up. It's like, come on, like, you
can do better than that, and it's attractive and not
to mention, our daughters are watching, so I'm always like
too yeah, oh.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
Man, yeah, I I sense already that my kid ut
because she's going in in the seventh grade, right, yep,
that's probably the age that I identify with the most,
Like that's I just have such core memories during that
time and also kind of like developing an understanding of
how the world worked. Yeah, you know, here's the popular kids,
(39:28):
here's the not so popular kids, here's the nerds. Like
where do I want to be?
Speaker 1 (39:32):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (39:33):
And then how do I get there? How do I
interact with people? All these things were like kind of
coming to light for me. And I also think about
the kind of music that I liked then I still
like today. Yeah, those kind of things. And to look
at her and I'm just like, dude, you're so much
smarter and.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
Cooler that I say. Right, do you also think about too,
Like have you ever said to your kids? And your
kids are so cool? Like I've spent time with them,
they are, They're cool in a good way. They know
who they are, They're not they're they're good, they're they
have integrity, like they're all the things. Do you ever
talk to them about though? Like you are the five
(40:09):
people you hang around.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
You know what? I have not talked to them about that,
but I did bring that up to someone recently.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
It's so true. My parents told me this my whole life,
and it is so true, Like look in your circles,
like look around, Like, I think that's another thing we
are good at, is like we do you do it?
I do it? Like I'm pretty insulated and who we
have a big group of friends, but I'm pretty insulated.
And who I the five people that generally get a
(40:38):
lot of my time? Yeah, And I would say I'm
very similar to those people. And so I think it
is it's so important that you that your time is
your commodity and that that time is filled with people
that you respect and that.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
You totally agree. Yeah, Like do these people have integrity?
Are they trustworthy? Are they emotionally mature? Are they making
good decision right?
Speaker 1 (40:59):
Are they using me? Are they they're using me? Yeah?
Am I just part of the agenda? Am I?
Speaker 2 (41:03):
You know? What?
Speaker 1 (41:04):
Are they adding value? Do I leave the dinner better
than I showed up because of a conversation with them.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
Do they make me feel good? Do they make me
feel good, yes, loved and seen and welcome or judged?
Speaker 1 (41:17):
Or are they saying things that kind of trip up
my nervous system of oh shit, because there are people
that do that for me, Like they'll bring things up
that like they don't they may not even know they're
doing it, but they're trying to like make me a
little unsteady m and I'm aware of it. I see
what you're doing. Cool, You're not going to be my
top five, no worries. You can still show up.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
But like, did you ever use MySpace?
Speaker 1 (41:41):
Never?
Speaker 2 (41:42):
Okay, well MySpace? You know, like one of the first
social media things they had, you had a top eight
like a friend's list.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
Oh no, I didn't know that you could arrange it.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
So on your like social media MySpace page, it had
your top eight friends and you should you picked it?
Speaker 1 (42:00):
So wait then wouldn't, God, I would. I don't have
the strength for that.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
It was like some bold moves made they could you?
Speaker 1 (42:09):
Could you just not do it? You know what?
Speaker 2 (42:12):
I don't remember, but damn, I definitely had my top
eight very curated.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
I wonder if there's some kind of AI out there
who could like pigraph for me. Who really I spend
the most time talking to well, you know.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
On Instagram. If you go to like send a DM,
it'll pop up with like your most chatted with people. Okay, interesting,
Like if you go to send someone like a post, yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
Yeah, it comes up. Okay, people thoughts. I send you
a lot of stuff, but a lot of it is
like content for the pod. No, it's to you are
in my top You're if this were my space, you
would definitely hit the top three, you would definitely hit
the top three.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
Yay.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
Well, this has been fun and I hope you get
to go to dance church.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
I know, I hope so too.
Speaker 1 (43:01):
I think you can tell me all about it. Yes,
all right later, my friend bye bye bye. Hey guys,
I need to make a little bit of a retraction
to something that I said regarding Pittsburgh versus Philadelphia. I
got a little bit of pushback from a friend of mine, Sarah,
if you're listening, this is for you, as promised, Pittsburgh.
(43:21):
Don't sleep on Pittsburgh. I guess there's a lot happening
in Pittsburgh. I had no idea. I've never been to either,
so I probably shouldn't have an opinion at all. In
any event, Pittsburgh, I'm not going to give it the
win because I've never been, But I think what I'm
hearing is that it's a pretty fucking amazing place.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
I want to support the Lesbian Chronicles podcast. Rate us
and write a review on Apple podcast or Spotify.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
We love listener feedback. If you'd like to share your story,
email us at Melissa and Ali at gmail dot com.
That's Melissa M. E. L I s A and Ali A. L.
L I at gmail dot com. Or follow us on
Instagram at Lesbian Chronicles
I'm Ali. I came out after twenty years of marriage
and I have three kids.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'm Melissa and I have two kids, and I came
out at thirty seven after an eleven year marriage.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
This podcast is about coming out later and the struggles
and victories that come with it.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
When coming out feels like the end of the world,
but it's really just the beginning.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
This is the Lesbian Chronicles. Welcome to the Lesbian Chronicles. Hi, Hi,
are you coming to Atlanta today?
Speaker 2 (00:40):
You know I'm a maybe right now?
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Okay, you're a maybe. Well, the weather does kind of suck.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
The weather sucks. I was debating on going to dance church, yeah,
which I've never been before.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Really, I've never been. But it looks really fun.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
It does look fun, and it also looks very intimidating.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
But I'm okay with your dance moves.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Come on. You know one thing I've I've been like
diving deep on in my brain is that I've always
been thought that I wasn't like a musical person. Like
that's kind of been like drilled into my head as
a kid.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Not a musical person. What do you mean, like like I.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Don't have a rhythm like that kind of thing, and
I'm realizing that that is a narrative that.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Oh, you're realizing you do have rhythm.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
I do.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
I always have a little bit of Okay, I've seen you,
I've seen you dance really well, and I've seen you
dance not well. And what it seems to come down
to for me is your alcohol intake.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
I feel better the more that I drink.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Right, it's inversely related.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
But the thing is my sister growing up. My sister
has great rhythm. She's a great dancer, and so it's
like I was being compared to her and it made
me look like but I also didn't like I don't
I didn't know how to move my body.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Okay, let me let me say something very funny. So
last weekend we had the Urban Pie Party where a
bunch of lesbians came out. Okay, this was It ended
up being a huge party of lesbians all in one place,
and the DJ was playing every song that you dance to, okay,
I mean Spice Girls to like Madonna too, I mean
(02:15):
every single song you knew. And so the lesbians are
out there on the dance floor and during while it's happening,
I'm like, Wow, this is like really, first of all,
it's a blast. Second of all, these people are great dance,
Like this is some great dancing. Well then so I'm
taking videos, I'm like getting all this content, and then
I rewatch it the next day and I'm like, oh
(02:36):
my god, these people are terrible. What I mean, like
everyone that I thought was so good was like worse
than the last one.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
That is hilarious.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Yeah, there was almost nothing salvagible literally, so it does
go to show that like you're just you can't you
can't tell.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
I mean, you can't tell. And I think that's just it.
It's more so just like letting loose and not giving
a shit.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Yeah, there was plenty of that. There was plenty of that.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Another reason why, and I mentioned this on the episode
with Burgaden, is like I just don't do well with
like coordinated dances, Like I need extra time. I need
like the teacher to pull me aside and like slow
it down, take extra time to.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Teach me Grapevine to the last like everybody else catches
on really quickly, and meanwhile I'm.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Like still like four steps behind, like oh well that
we weren't doing any of that kind of dancing.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
But it was just like fucking comical watching these people
because we all thought we were like on fire.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
That's amazing, and we were not. I love it though.
It sounds like a great.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Time it was. Yeah, if you're listening, listen, this is
going to be a monthly Kirkwood lesbian night. It's going
to be I think we're doing it the last Saturday.
Kind of think of last Supper, last Saturday, so last
Saturday of the month, and it's going to be I
think June twenty eighth this month Urban Pie Kirkwood.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
I'm like, June twenty eighth, Oh, I think that's a
week and I have my kids. Why are we do
you think?
Speaker 1 (04:07):
I know, I think I do too, But I think
it'll just be a night once a month that I
get a sitter or bring them down here and leave them,
leave them on the side of the road. Leave them
on the side of the road. I mean it's a
mile from here, Like we can be gone a couple
hours and come back. Yeah, we're a movie on for
these guys.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
I know. I'm like, I'm traveling so freaking much this summer.
I'm like my mind is blown with because I feel
like every time that there's plans I'm like, oh wait,
I'm gone.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
I know that's why you and I have to have
our party we do.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
I know we need to talk about that because I'm
also very close to pulling the trigger. I'm buying my
own DJ equipment.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Please do it? Oh my god, then you can DJ
the parties.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Dude. I'm like, I'm I'm I'm diving deep on this
and this is kind of like tying back into the
music thing. I'm like, I can fucking do this.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
I feel like, definitely, I'm going to tell you something.
The play list that we played that was a total
blast we made. Yeah, so, I mean she mixed it
or did whatever you do. But it was like, I'm
sure she was looking at this list like you really
want me to play this shit? And we're like, really,
we do, Yes, Yes, we do. Absolutely no. I think
you would crush it if you were the DJ, you know,
(05:18):
I would come hype. I'd be your hype girl. I'd
be at the front of that table.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
You come watch that not my comedy.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Well, you're DJing. I feel like I would have more
control over because I could be like, dude, can we
do journey?
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Now? Can we move this? Well? Speaking of comedy, I
do want to plug real quick. Yeah, Doe Second Friday
Pride event on June thirteenth. Okay, we are hosting a
comedy show. I'm hosting a comedy search show. So we've
got a few open mic spots. We already have some
really great people signed up.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
What if I just said I want to do it,
I'm just going to show up and do it. Okay,
I'm kidding. That was a joke. See you, I'll let
you go so funny.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
I'll let you do it.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
You prepare, be prepared for these people to boo you up.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Say we're doing that.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
How long would myste have to be?
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Like three to four minutes, three to four minutes.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
I gotta be funny for three to four minutes. So
you can basically just tell like one story.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
I think nothing, I know.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
I think I could do this actually, Okay, okay, June thirteenth, Yeah, okay,
Well get excited, Atlanta as Okay, we got to help
these people because we're running out of time. Yes, okay,
back to gay, back to gay.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Back to gay. I mean that was kind of gay.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
That was kind of gay. So Melissa and I both
are always in constant communication about ourselves about messages we
get about DMS, and then we happen to both listen
to this podcast that we were like, God, this really
resonates with a lot of the messages we're getting, and
maybe even in our own lives, were like, it felt
very relatable. So why don't you tell them what kind
(06:54):
of we're centering our episode about?
Speaker 2 (06:57):
This was an episode an interview on Mel Robbins Podcas
asked with Matthew Hussey, who is a relationship expert.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
I kind of like we are, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
I was gonna say, I don't really know what his
credentials are.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Well, he doesn't have any credentials. That's very true.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Robins doesn't either. Sometimes we just come with great brains, yes,
and and knowledge and we like to share that knowledge.
That's right, totally on the same level. But Matthew Hussey,
I really do like his work. He especially for being
a man. I know that sounds kind of like rude.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
Damn, but can you imagine if a man said that.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
I mean especially, but it's it's twenty twenty five, It's
about time we start saying stuff like this. But he
is very like open minded and present, emotionally aware in
a way that's admirable.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
And hasn't always been and owns that right exactly.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
And so he was talking about how there's four different
levels to a relationship, and level one being that there
is an attraction, and that's just like a one sided attraction.
You see someone walking down the street and you're like,
that person's hot, or it could even just be like
let's say a celebrity that you're never gonna meet, but
you find that person attractive. Level two is there is
(08:12):
a mutual attraction. You two meet and you feel an
attraction and you have chemistry. You know, like I've had
this happen a lot in my life, you know, just
like being at a bar or something and seeing someone
and being like that person's attractive, they find me attractive,
and you think it's gonna be something, right, You're like,
maybe this is the start, but then.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
There's yeah, it's like if you're building a future already.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Yeah, But then it proceeds to what would be a
level three, and that's mutual commitment, and it's just not there.
One of you is not in a place to date,
or you kind of realize like maybe we don't have
as much in common, or or you life just a line.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Yeah, or just like, I think that is where the
breakdown happens a lot, because it's like many people, including
my elf, many times we're just looking for connection. You're
not necessarily looking for this like full Some people will
say I am out there looking for my person. I
am actually I am out there looking for my person forever.
But there's plenty of people who might think that they are,
(09:18):
but really what they want is just a connection. They're
not really looking to be settled down committed to someone
and they still want to go out on Saturday with
someone else. They might flirt with someone else on Sunday.
They're not they want connection, not relationship. So you're you're
not aligned and what the goal is at level three.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Right, And that's perfectly okay, totally No, There's a lot
of people that that's just where they are in their life,
you know. I think, especially people in their twenties, that's
where they're at, and that's I think that's perfectly acceptable, especially.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
During that time if you're honest about it.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Yeah, if you're yeah, exactly, do you.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Feel like about it? Melissa? In your own life, Like,
don't you feel like you've been in situations where you
felt like you were aligned with this person, and then
you find out a year later, you're like, dude, what
the fuck am I still doing with you? You're not
on the same level.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
With me exactly, And that's just because neither of us
was having that hard conversation.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
And why would you not have the hard conversation.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Because you're afraid they're going to leave.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Yep, they're not going to like me. I'm difficult, yeah, needy, difficult.
I'm needy. I'm asking you for reassurance. I'm asking you
to hang out again. You haven't asked me. I'm waiting
around on Saturday because I kind of want to hang
out with you, but you haven't asked me what I'm doing.
And so now I'm like, God, do we have plans
or don't we have plans? I better make plans with
(10:38):
Melissa because this person may not want to hang out
with me. They haven't asked me, you know. And it's
like I want to scream, like if I want to
be with you over the weekend, you're going to know
it likely on Monday.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
So it's just like, but we can't. We don't want
to face that reality.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
No, because it's scary, because you're right you're operating from
a place of scarcity a lot of the time. I
know I am yep, And you're like, Okay, if I
have this hard conversation and I say, like, you're not
giving me what I would want in a relationship, like
can we shift to something more committed? You're afraid they're
going to leave?
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
And then the whole thing is, so what if they leave?
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Yeah, that's it. I mean, that's it, like d like.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Period, Yeah, if they leave, that takes away all the
anxiety that you're experiencing in the meantime of waiting and
hoping that they show up for you.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
And then how about also what we talk about all
the time, which is time is my most precious commodity.
Time is my commodity, and if you're wasting my fucking time,
you are wasting my biggest, most precious commodity. So it's like,
if I'm to say to you, we you know, are
we hanging out? Or where are we? What are we?
And you, you know you clearly aren't on the same
(11:52):
level with me. You just did me a favor because
now I can move on and I'm not wasting more
of this commodity on somebody who's never going to be
where I.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Am m M. And if you have that hard conversation
and that person either gets mad or shuts down or
can't offer you answers, concrete answers, those are your answers.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Yeah, you just got it.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
When someone clams up like that, it's because they can't
the feelings aren't there.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
It's interesting to me because I do know that some
people can like lie in those situations. They can fake it.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Yeah, right, because they're scared of losing yet they are
scared of losing it.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Yeah, and they can pretend and fake. But it's like
at the end of the day when they're choosing other
people over you to prioritizing like taking this trip versus
going on a trip with you, and that's happening like
on a consistent basis, they're not for you.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
No, they're not for you. And someone over the I
won't say when and I won't say who, but said
to me once like I see what you're doing and
kind of called me out, like I am trying to
have a plan with you and you continually kind of
put me off, or maybe you don't call me for
a day, or maybe you don't return my text for
(13:10):
a long time. I see what you're doing, and I
understand the state that your heart is in right now.
But I'm going to be very clear with you. I'm
not doing this like game really with you. Like we
can be friends, we can hang out. Maybe another time
in the future, you'll be into this, but what it
looks like right now, I'm not doing with you anymore. Yeah,
And I remember like thinking like that was so fucking
(13:32):
attractive to me, that somebody took care of their needs
more than just put up with bullshit.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Yeah, that's so powerful. It is like there, like hearing
something like that, I am like, God, damn, I wish
I had had that power in me a couple of
years ago to say to my then girlfriend that was
not meeting my needs whatsoever and was avoiding any hard
conversation about it.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Right, And give me some example, like I think one
you gave me before we started recording that I think
was real was like things like Melissa dated someone who
went out of town for an extended period of time,
came back and then really had no plan to see
her and they were in a relationship, and it was
very upsetting for Melissa. She said to me like why
the fuck am I not the first thing she's doing
(14:20):
it first stop, your first stop, even from the airport,
like I'm close. And I remember in my heart like
saying to you, like that's data, dude, Like this is data.
But it was like for you, it was just like
what the hell, But it is data.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
It's like data.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
That's that's the action. Forget what they say that was
the action.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Yeah, And that was definitely like a turning point for
me because I was just like, you've been gone, you
had very little access to communication during that trip, and
you're coming back and I know you've got life, you've
got other things to address whatever, but like, make a
plan with me. I'll come to you. Yeah, we can
(15:02):
do something. And it was and that was the case too.
I had not made any plans for when they were
coming back, yep, because I wanted to be available right
and then I was not in the plans for like
three four days out when I was just like, dude,
like what in the fuck right? And it's like when
stuff like that is happening, and even in the beginning
(15:24):
of a relationship, when you're in the early stages of dating,
if you're finding that you are the one that's always
reaching out, sending the text yep, making the plans, and
that person's taking a long time to respond to you.
It's twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
Yeah, like you don't your phone is in your hand
all the time, not sending a carrier shit exactly.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Like take the time to fucking respond when someone doesn't
respond to me for like two to three days. And
this happened about a year ago. I had asked someone
to hang out. They replied to me like to to
three days later and said sorry, I you know, I
got sidetracked and I did I forgot to respond to
this is the invite still open? And I said yes?
And like, looking back on that, I'm like, dude, you're
(16:11):
such a pansy.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Yeah, and like, no, no, it's not I'm moved already. Yeah,
I'm not a priority, Like I'm not a priority because
your other thing fell through exactly. Yeah, And you hate
to be harsh because I also think like in that
Matthew Hussy episode, he mentions like, you can't be like
pinning people down month one of like I want a relationship,
(16:32):
You're you're testing and feeling out like do I like
you do? I want to be with you? But I
think it's also fair to say, and this same person
who called me out sort of said, the beginning of
a relationship is very fragile, Like this is a fragile time,
like you you sort of do there is an expectation
that you're gonna show up a certain way in the
early days that show me that you're you might be
(16:54):
compatible for me. Because if you're somebody who doesn't respond
for three days and it's the beginning of the relationship,
I also see that as a failure because it's just
like you clearly aren't that interested in me, and it
is fragile at the beginning, right, So I don't know
what that line is of like it's fragile at the beginning,
but it's also like I don't expect you to commit
to me month one.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
That's very true, Yeah, very true, Like there there is
some like leeway there. But I think the data there
is if someone is taking several days or a few
days to respond to you, they're they're just not that
into you, or maybe they don't know you that well yet. Okay,
but if you've gone on a couple of dates and
that's still the level of like reaction that they're giving
(17:39):
you the urgency the agency, Like it's not it's they're
not into you.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Right, I think too, Like it's again, like it's worth
repeating that, like if somebody likes you, you should know
it like you. They there should already be an effort
to see you the next Like I've gone on a
dislike level on this scrum. I mean, they finish the
date and then they say do we have another date?
Like I'm looking at can we do this again? I
(18:08):
enjoyed myself. I would like to do this with you again.
And to me, it's like that's not only is that
you're a badass for saying that, because it's brave as fuck,
but on top of that, it's just you're securing the
next interaction, which to me, you know, says this is
somebody who is they're putting the effort in.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Yeah, and then I get to respond exactly and love
on the spectrum is such a good example of people
operating in a way that you should operate.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
And the thing is like these people, because they have autism,
they've been instructed on how to interact with people in
a way that like typical people are not instructed. And
we need to be honest no, I know, Like I'm
sitting there taking notes on the fact that the way
that Tanner engages in conversations, Oh my god is fantastic.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
It is, and even just showing his cards on how
excited he is. Like have you ever had somebody tell
you they're hanging out with you and they're like, just
stop the conversation and just say, like, God, I really
like you. Yeah, Like it's like wow, Like to me,
it's like, there's no I love that. I'm like, you're
so brave and cool, Like it's cooler to do that
(19:20):
than to act like you don't care or you're a
blase or too cool to be excited about this date.
You're too cool to be excited about being out with me. Yeah,
Like there's something that's I'm so put off by that.
So it's like I like people that do like I'm
I really like you, or I'm having a good, really
good time, Like I like.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Just engaging in the conversation, listening to what the other
person says and asking them more questions about that topic.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Like yeah, if.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
You're not into someone or if you're just not a
good conversationalist, I guess like you're not engaging in a
conversation with someone. Yeah, if you find that you're the
one that's like asking all the questions, Yeah, that's that's
more data too.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
I know, have you ever been with someone know who
is engaging in the conversation but they don't. It's almost like,
I don't know, like they feel like they're just they're
continuing on with their their stuff. But they you respond,
but they just keep going, and it's almost like there's
no cadence, Like there's a natural cadence to a conversation
(20:19):
where you give a little bit. I give a little bit.
It doesn't necessarily have to be about me. It might
be me asking you more about you. But there's a cadence,
And I feel like some people just don't. They're not
good at the rules. Like I'm sitting there and I'm thinking,
you're not good at this.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
You're not good at this.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
You're not going to read the rule book. Read the
rule book.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Now. The other part of Matthew Hussey's attraction situation here
is the level four, and that is after you've had
that mutual commitment conversation, okay, and you're let's say you're
both on the same page. You want to commit to
this but are you compatible okay?
Speaker 1 (20:57):
And how do you know that?
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Which? This is? This? This part's interesting to me because
it's like I would feel like the compatibility needs to
happen around level three. I guess you do need to
be like, Okay, we're in this together. Now, do we
have the same life goals? Like or do we both
want to be monogamous in this relationship? Do we both
(21:20):
you know, what's the plan for the future if this
works out? Like are we going to live together or
do you prefer to live separately? Do you want to
go live overseas one at some point like later in life?
Like does that align with what I want?
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Those kind of conversations, and then I think just day
to day shit, you know, like how messy are you?
Do you pick up after yourself? I saw a video
recently where this couple has separate bedrooms.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
It's becoming so common.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
But like, the woman's bedroom was like impeccable, nice clean. Yeah,
the guy's bedroom was a fucking disaster. It looked like
a teenage boys room. And the comments were like this
is grounds for divorce.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Yeah, yeah, that is such a turn off.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
It is, And I'm like, I could not be with
someone who is messy and like dirty.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Yeah, no, hell no, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
I guess that's something you can figure out pretty early
on if you get to someone's.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Place, Like I think too, Like I had a conversation
with someone recently about like I'm sort of a traditionalist
in that, like I think, once you're married and now.
Then this person pushed back, like, well, you got divorced.
I'm like, yeah, I got divorced because I'm gay, and
I wanted him to go live his gay, his straight life.
I wanted to live my gay life. We agreed to
(22:34):
get a divorce because of that. Like otherwise, he was
a great man. If I had been straight that marriage,
I would have continued to work on and make it
as good as I could in any event, But one
of the disagreements we had was that I believe that
when you're married, like I think about like my parents' marriage,
my mom drank. Everyone knows this, but my mom was
an alcoholic for several years and my dad stayed. And
(22:59):
I had a friend who said to me, like, she
left her first marriage because her wife drank, No problem,
no problem at all, that's that's your business. But I
was thinking, like I personally am very I don't want
to get divorced again, Like I don't care like I
to me, it's like unless you're physically beating me or
like something, I'm being emotionally abused. I feel like there
(23:20):
would be a long term attempt at therapy and fixing
and staying because like a lot of people probably would
have left my mom, my dad. You know, my dad didn't,
and it's like he would say, thank god I didn't
leave your mom, Like, this is the love of my life.
This is I'm so happy married to your mother. She's
the best thing that's ever happened to me. I love
(23:41):
that you kids come home and we're here together, we're
a family. Like I appreciate that in them, and I
think they went through many years of hard and but
they stayed together, and I just that is a value
of mine. So I to me, some people would say
that's awesome. That's not necessarily you know, I don't necessarily
think that's as important. You know, if there's issues that
(24:04):
come up and they get really hard, it might be
that was a season and I'm moving on, and that
is amazing. I appreciate that that's an independence in you
that I don't necessarily have. I to me, it's like
the thought of getting divorced a second time is so
horrifying that I need almost like a traditional partner who's like,
I don't know more, I guess intertwined and that you
(24:27):
really really divorce is like the last thing. Yeah, it happens.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
And I think that, you know, that's a good part
about the compatibility compatibility. I'm the same way. I never
want to get divorced again. Yeah, that's it's awful.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
It's awful, And.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
I would have our marriage would have worked one hundred
percent same if it wasn't for this whole gay thing.
But I think let's say.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Your partner had a problem with alcohol for five years.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
That does sound really tough.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
Yeah, like for sure, Okay.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
I think there's a lot of like factors at play,
like is this something that's being remedied, is it something
that's being worked on, Is it getting worse or is
it getting better?
Speaker 1 (25:07):
It was getting worse any state.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
I think that part is really different.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
That's what I'm saying, Like, these are really difficult things,
and I appreciate when people leave situations because they have
to take care of themselves and they you know, I
appreciate that I just am. I don't know that I'm
a minority in this. I don't know that I'm leaving.
I don't even know that I'm leaving. If I get
cheated on in a marriage, I think I probably.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
I don't think I could. I could not handle.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
I think I would, like really try to go to
a lot of fucking therapy to figure it out.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
I feel like that's a dark cloud that would just linger. Oh,
like I could. I don't think I could do that.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
And because you your wife, don't cheat on me though exactly,
please don't.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Like oh. But this kind of leads into the other
part of what mel Robbins and Matthew were talking about is,
you know, be ready to walk if you don't get
the answers that you're looking for, decide whether or not
this relationship is a good investment for your time and
your energy.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Say more about that, because that's really important, Like be
ready to walk, Be ready.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
To walk, because so often we'll be like, Okay, I
need to have our conversation, but you don't know what
you're going to do with the answer. You're ready to
have the conversation, but you're not ready for the answer,
Like I think when you're getting to the point where
you know you need to have the conversation, you also
need to prepare yourself for that answer. And if the
(26:38):
answer is they're not giving you what you want and
what you need and what is going to be a
good investment of your time and energy, you need to
be ready to say then this isn't for me, like
and but also have the the confidence. That's the thing.
Like listening to these conversations that they were giving examples
of what you should say in these situations, I was
(27:00):
like caking myself. I'm like, I wish I could have
said these things three years ago.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
You have to be so clear, I think too before
you go. And I always tell my kids, like have
talking points, Like it doesn't mean you have to rehearse
a script, but you should have like three or four
like talking points of like this is what needs to
get across in this messaging. It might be like, hey, Melissa, listen,
we've been going out for three months. I really like you.
I am ready to like really take this to the
(27:26):
next step, Like I want to be in a relationship
with you. I'm looking for my forever person. Where are
you right now? And then you can tell when they respond.
Are they kept, you know, sort of clear on that
or is it more like like they're not clamming up
or I'm still processing, you know, whatever it is. And
I think that's data, you know, like if they want
(27:48):
to be with you or they're feeling the same and
looking for a relationship, the answer will be clear. I
really like hanging out with you too, I too, am
looking for my forever person. I think you could be.
Let's continue down this road together because I'm really into this.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Nothing's definitive right now, but let's move forward. And if
you don't hear that, be prepared to say I've really
enjoyed our time together, but I think it's time that
I take my time and energy and use that towards
looking for a person that is looking for the same
thing that.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
I am, and not doesn't want just connection, wants a relationship, right, And.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
You don't have to be mean about it. It doesn't
have to get like. You don't have to, you know,
say they wasted your time or anything like that. They didn't,
they didn't, and well sometimes they do.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
That's on you, right, but that's on you.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
That's just it. And something that Mel said in this
episode that really struck me was don't turn yourself into
the loser.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
Don't don't be the victim.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
Don't be the victim. Don't be angry you did this
to me being like, oh my god, I was. I'm
so in love with you and I just wanted a
future with you. You don't need to say all there,
you don't.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
And you you nothing can be done to you that
you didn't allow. Like it's like if you're mad, you're
mad at you, Like you have the conversation, there's no
need to go on like you wasted my time all
that bullshit that you said, Like that's so true. It's like, really,
the classy thing to do is I wish you so
well and maybe down the road the stars will align
(29:26):
and we'll meet again. But otherwise this has been a blast. Goodbye, yeah,
hard line, hard line. And then what happens when two
weeks later you get the text I miss you. It's coming,
it's coming.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
It happens.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
It happens every time.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
It might be a few months, it might be Saturday night,
but they always fucking come back.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
I always fucking come back.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
But that was like some divine intervene intervention.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Listen they're laughing at you.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
They're laughing at you because they always fucking come back.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
They always come back.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
And this is your other opportunity.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
To this is the most turn herself into the loser.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Yeah, it will be the dumb girl that's been like
tricked into being invited to prom only to be like
left by your date when you get there.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
Right, Okay, so they miss you. Now, this person that
you've already told this isn't you know, we're not going.
They don't want to be in a relationship. They've moved on,
but now they're lonely, So they miss you. How do
you respond to that? And then I'll tell you how
eighty percent of my friends respond right exactly.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
The response that Matthew offers is the one that his
wife actually gave to him. Now, wife, I think at
the time it was a girlfriend. They had split up
or something or not been in communication for a few weeks,
and he did the I miss you yep, And she
said something along the lines of like, well, that's interesting
because what your actions are not aligning with someone who
(30:59):
would miss me? Right.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
I love that so much. It's like, that's weird. I'm
not criticizing you. I'm just saying the way you're acting
isn't lining up with what you're saying. It's basically, I'm
calling you out and you can't do that. I'm too
smart for this. Basically what she said is I'm too
smart for this, yeah, for this game.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
And what a powerful fucking thing to say in that situation.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Yeah, but so many people need that, that that reassurance
and they're excited, they're adrenalines now pumping. They got the
text from the boy the girl that they like, and
so then it's like, I miss you too, Yeah, and
it's just like you. That is where you give away
all your power, all your agency right in that in
that moment, because now the person knows you're right back
(31:44):
where where they had you.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
That's what you want to avoid because it's like, you know,
take your power back in the way.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
But if you do miss them too, you.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Can say that. I think you can say that within
the context of that that text of saying it's weird
that you're saying this to me because your actions don't align.
I do miss you as well, but I'm going to
need someone who shows up in a different way than
what you're giving me right now.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
Yeah, And I think two, like, it's really important to
put yourself in these situations with someone like that. First,
like what would I tell I always think about what
would I tell my daughter? Like how would that look
if this was happening to her, What would I want
that to look like? And that that should be the
same advice I would give myself. I mean, I wouldn't
(32:27):
want her letting some guy come back two weeks later
and weasel back in, somebody who wasn't willing to give
her what she asked for and wanted. Not that there's
anything wrong with him, it's just she's looking for something else.
And so I think that's you know, you want to
make sure you're doing that for yourself too.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
Yeah, And I think, you know. The thing to keep
in mind is that these examples that we're using, they
can be applied to the beginning of a relationship, but
they can also be applied to the end. And for me,
this resonates more more for the end of my relationship.
The beginning of my relationship was we're both in it,
like we're you know, all the communication, all the feelings
(33:08):
are laid out like so in it. It was towards
the end the things shifted and one of the things
that I remember thinking about was we're different, like we
have a different connection. I know that we're stronger than this.
I know that this is just a bump in the road,
and we're different than all the other relationship advice stuff
(33:28):
that I that would apply.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
In the situation.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
And we are not any fucking different. It is not different.
But I don't need to learn about the connection that
you used to have. It's not there anymore. And that
person's not showing up in the way that they used
to and that right there is your fucking information, your data, whatever.
And when that keeps happening and they keep casting the
(33:52):
line and pulling you back, like you need to grab
yourself by your own fucking bootstraps and keep.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
The fuck out of there and take care of yourself.
And the bonus to that is it's fucking attractive. And
if you do it enough times, you learn that skill.
It's like fake it till you make it in some
ways because you do that over and over and then
you get to a place of like there is no
other way to react, like there. I mean, I think
(34:19):
about the woman I was with my catalyst, and you know,
if she would say jump I'm like, how high, Like
where do you want me? Where do you? Of course
I'll drive to you. Of course I'm not. Yeah, I'm
free whatever. It's like that woman doesn't exist anymore, and
it's just little by little interactions with different situations. I
think you grow into a place of just like, this
(34:40):
is the expectation for how I'm going to be treated,
and there really is no room, Like I don't. Anyone
who knows me will tell you that there is no room,
Like I have a certain expectation and you meet it
or you don't.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
It's so interesting to me because of how well I
know you, yeah, and how powerful you are, and you
are the kind of person that says exactly what you're thinking,
and you're putting up with exactly zero bullshit and you
this strong fucking woman.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
Yeah, we're in a relationships like that, not that long
ago either. It's like it can happen to anyone, and
I think it's a that's that is my point too.
It's like it's such a learning curve of like practicing
this skill. I mean it's like even like at the
very end of that toxic relationship, I was starting to
get some power. I was starting to kind of come
(35:28):
into my own and I remember her trying to have
a physical like she was trying to see me again,
and I had left a bike there, so she was like,
I need you know, if you're gonna come get your bike. Bike,
it's always the bike, the lesbian and the bike, the bike.
You got to come get your bike. And she wanted
to see me, and I think she felt like if
(35:48):
I can just get Ali here, like I can win
her back, I can like be charming and I'm going
to get her to like do the thing and then
she's going to fall back in. And by that point
I had gotten to such a place of like I'm
not I'm untouchable now, like you have taught me to
be this, like you turned me into this. Like it
was almost like I've got so much therapy. I had
(36:10):
you in my life then, And I was like, I
don't there's no way I'm coming to get that. I'm
sending people to get the bike because I'm not even
going to give you the privilege of having me there.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
Yeah, exactly. And I think there's also a lot of
people who are late in life. We are people pleasersh Yes.
And I think that there's so much people pleasing. That
comes into play with dating.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
Mm hmmm.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
And you know you're not you've been taught in condition
to not put yourself first. Yeah, and it is something
that you really have to undo. It is so fucking
common in this community. I know I did it. Like
that's how I ended up married at twenty six to
a man, even though great, lovely man and we had
a great life ahead of us. I was doing that
(36:55):
in so many ways for my parents to be like, Okay,
it's okay that she lives with this man, you know, right,
like and in their eyes being in this committed marriage
and relationship and it being okay that we lived together.
I remember feeling like okay, yeah, but reality is I'm like,
would I have gotten married if there weren't all those
(37:16):
like pressures on me rights?
Speaker 1 (37:18):
Decades of that bullshit?
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
It's like, also, do you ever notice are you ever
around people who are like oh sorry or like sorry,
like they're just so apologetic all the time about everything,
Like there that is that people pleasing? Yeah, And it's
just like I it's decades of like you said, like
were your parents you want them to think what you're
doing is okay, and you do that over decades. It's like, God,
(37:42):
no wonder why we're all just like trying to make
everybody happy all the time. And I think it's exhausting.
Speaker 2 (37:49):
It's exhausting, exhausting.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
So I just kind of stopped.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
So I'm just like not doing that. I'm just like,
I'm really not like I think, especially like thinking back
on who I was, even like a.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
Year ago, you know, oh, you are drastically different.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
I would have put myself in really uncomfortable situations. Yeah,
and now recently something came up where I'm like, I'm
not going, yeah, not going.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Sorry, I'm just not going to be there, so yeah, sorry.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
But but it's also like I know what I need
for my own mental health. Same, and it's not that.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
Yeah, and let me tell you something again, like that's hot.
Like when I see women who know what they need
and they get their fucking needs met, whether any in
the bedroom, the house, the whatever, the emotional connection, the
answers they need. When they're getting their needs met, I
am paying it. I'm dialed in because it's also that's
kind of rare. So it's like I love that I'm
(38:49):
attracted to that versus like the martyr or like the
victim or the person like just showing up because they
got to show up. It's like, come on, like, you
can do better than that, and it's attractive and not
to mention, our daughters are watching, so I'm always like
too yeah, oh.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
Man, yeah, I I sense already that my kid ut
because she's going in in the seventh grade, right, yep,
that's probably the age that I identify with the most,
Like that's I just have such core memories during that
time and also kind of like developing an understanding of
how the world worked. Yeah, you know, here's the popular kids,
(39:28):
here's the not so popular kids, here's the nerds. Like
where do I want to be?
Speaker 1 (39:32):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (39:33):
And then how do I get there? How do I
interact with people? All these things were like kind of
coming to light for me. And I also think about
the kind of music that I liked then I still
like today. Yeah, those kind of things. And to look
at her and I'm just like, dude, you're so much
smarter and.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
Cooler that I say. Right, do you also think about too,
Like have you ever said to your kids? And your
kids are so cool? Like I've spent time with them,
they are, They're cool in a good way. They know
who they are, They're not they're they're good, they're they
have integrity, like they're all the things. Do you ever
talk to them about though? Like you are the five
(40:09):
people you hang around.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
You know what? I have not talked to them about that,
but I did bring that up to someone recently.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
It's so true. My parents told me this my whole life,
and it is so true, Like look in your circles,
like look around, Like, I think that's another thing we
are good at, is like we do you do it?
I do it? Like I'm pretty insulated and who we
have a big group of friends, but I'm pretty insulated.
And who I the five people that generally get a
(40:38):
lot of my time? Yeah, And I would say I'm
very similar to those people. And so I think it
is it's so important that you that your time is
your commodity and that that time is filled with people
that you respect and that.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
You totally agree. Yeah, Like do these people have integrity?
Are they trustworthy? Are they emotionally mature? Are they making
good decision right?
Speaker 1 (40:59):
Are they using me? Are they they're using me? Yeah?
Am I just part of the agenda? Am I?
Speaker 2 (41:03):
You know? What?
Speaker 1 (41:04):
Are they adding value? Do I leave the dinner better
than I showed up because of a conversation with them.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
Do they make me feel good? Do they make me
feel good, yes, loved and seen and welcome or judged?
Speaker 1 (41:17):
Or are they saying things that kind of trip up
my nervous system of oh shit, because there are people
that do that for me, Like they'll bring things up
that like they don't they may not even know they're
doing it, but they're trying to like make me a
little unsteady m and I'm aware of it. I see
what you're doing. Cool, You're not going to be my
top five, no worries. You can still show up.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
But like, did you ever use MySpace?
Speaker 1 (41:41):
Never?
Speaker 2 (41:42):
Okay, well MySpace? You know, like one of the first
social media things they had, you had a top eight
like a friend's list.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
Oh no, I didn't know that you could arrange it.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
So on your like social media MySpace page, it had
your top eight friends and you should you picked it?
Speaker 1 (42:00):
So wait then wouldn't, God, I would. I don't have
the strength for that.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
It was like some bold moves made they could you?
Speaker 1 (42:09):
Could you just not do it? You know what?
Speaker 2 (42:12):
I don't remember, but damn, I definitely had my top
eight very curated.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
I wonder if there's some kind of AI out there
who could like pigraph for me. Who really I spend
the most time talking to well, you know.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
On Instagram. If you go to like send a DM,
it'll pop up with like your most chatted with people. Okay, interesting,
Like if you go to send someone like a post, yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
Yeah, it comes up. Okay, people thoughts. I send you
a lot of stuff, but a lot of it is
like content for the pod. No, it's to you are
in my top You're if this were my space, you
would definitely hit the top three, you would definitely hit
the top three.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
Yay.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
Well, this has been fun and I hope you get
to go to dance church.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
I know, I hope so too.
Speaker 1 (43:01):
I think you can tell me all about it. Yes,
all right later, my friend bye bye bye. Hey guys,
I need to make a little bit of a retraction
to something that I said regarding Pittsburgh versus Philadelphia. I
got a little bit of pushback from a friend of mine, Sarah,
if you're listening, this is for you, as promised, Pittsburgh.
(43:21):
Don't sleep on Pittsburgh. I guess there's a lot happening
in Pittsburgh. I had no idea. I've never been to either,
so I probably shouldn't have an opinion at all. In
any event, Pittsburgh, I'm not going to give it the
win because I've never been, But I think what I'm
hearing is that it's a pretty fucking amazing place.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
I want to support the Lesbian Chronicles podcast. Rate us
and write a review on Apple podcast or Spotify.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
We love listener feedback. If you'd like to share your story,
email us at Melissa and Ali at gmail dot com.
That's Melissa M. E. L I s A and Ali A. L.
L I at gmail dot com. Or follow us on
Instagram at Lesbian Chronicles
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