June 15, 2025 • 47 mins
Chelsea and Kady share their story of how grief brought them together after they both lost siblings. And how Chelsea didn't realize her sexuality until meeting Kady (despite showers with her friends! lol lol)
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
I'm Alie. I came out after twenty years of marriage
and I have three kids.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'm Melissa and I have two kids, and I came
out at thirty seven after an eleven year marriage.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
This podcast is about coming out later and the struggles
and victories that come with it.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
When coming out feels like the end of the world,
but it's really just the beginning.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
This is the Lesbian Chronicles. Welcome to the last few chronicles. Hi,
where Melissa almost didn't make it because she's shopping.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
I was shopping. I'll be real here.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
We don't want to say today line friendship for forty
five minutes to buy a pair of bloodstones.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Damn, I would have been losing my mind. Well, there
you go, the deal of the day.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
I'm proud of my bargain.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Okay, yeah, I actually am so surprised. I bought blunstones
a while ago, and I never wore them. They just
like sat in a closet, and then one day I
wore them, like I just I needed them. It was raining.
I was like, I'm just gonna wear them, and now
I wear them all the time. It's like I just
needed that one wear and now I wear them all
the time.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
But those things they will last forever. They're like waterproof,
they're warm.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
I did wear.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Them when I was in Colorado last time, and not
gonna lie almost eight shit.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
A few times on the sidewalks, okay. Not great for
ice okay, but all in all, great shoe. They're very expensive,
but I have a pair of black ones.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
I bought a pair of brown once today. But in
my eyes, I'm like, these things are gonna last me.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
Like thirty years.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Yeah, if we're still are we still wearing bloodstones on
thirty years?
Speaker 2 (01:38):
I mean I've been wearing my Doc Martins for thirty years.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Wow. Okay, then the answers yes yes, and the answers
yes yes, it's time going to be.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
How old will I be in thirty years eighty? No, wait,
that's not right. Seventy four?
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Well that really it fits well with my utilitarian closet exactly, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
Well.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
What I wanted to bring up to you that like
was shocking for me last night is I'm doing a
whole like because the kid owns home from college reads here,
so we're doing like vintage like watching old movies. I'm
talking like breakfast club like classics that I fucking loved.
And so last night's movie with sixteen candles PG harmless Dude,
(02:20):
there's full frontal of Jake Ryan's girlfriend in the shower, nipples,
boobs and nothingg PG. I've got my little read, my
little seventh grader sitting next to me. I literally my
jaw dropped. It wasn't like a huge deal, but I
just didn't expect it. Like literally the girlfriend is full
(02:42):
body in the shower, nipples, boobs out.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
That is wild, like because the thing is I want
to show my kids some of these movies and then
all there's a there's a website. I think it's called
like common sense Media.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Okay, we're gonna tell you, like be.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
Aware of this stuff in this movie.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Do I look like the kind of mom that's checking
common sense media before I fire the movie? I wasn't.
I looked at PG. I'm like, we're cuddled up in
the bag.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
I would think PG would be okay.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Yeah, we got frontal.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
I thought you were gonna say how problematic, how problematic
it is that like they're dragging this drunk girl around,
like dragging the.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Drunk girl around, and then how about how they treat
the foreign exchange student that too. Red was like like,
especially to my kids who are like so PC on
everything every time wild I was dying and they're having
him like love America because he's getting laid and like partying.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
What I missed the days of like TBS though, when
you could like watch a movie on TV and like
it was edited like yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
You're right, like they would take out the bad stuff.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
Mm hmmm.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Yeah. So his eyes were like saucers, like when I
walked over, it's like just your memory for Reid, it's
a core memory with me in the bed so fucked up.
I was laying let me finish the store exactly. I mean,
he does have a big sister, so we've seen lots
(04:15):
of boobs, but to see like this woman in that
kind of setting naked was like wow. And then I'm
like do I cover your eyes or like are we
just like over there? I don't.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
I don't want to make it kind of like not
make a big deal about it.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
I also sort of have mixed feelings about like why
are we covering up? Like I get triggered. I get
so triggered by the men in my yoga class who
take their shirts off and they're like gross with their
like shirt off and their sweating and their nipples, and
I'm thinking, like, why are you, like, dude, there's something
triggering about that to me, Like why can't then I
(04:49):
take mine off? I guess I'm taking mine off, dude.
I go for it, Like I mean, I'm like, why
is it? Though? Why? I don't know.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
It doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
And nobody seems to like say the thing, I don't
gonna start jogging around Kirkwood topless.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
I think you should.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
I want to make a statement.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
The other thing I wanted to point out because we
just aired this episode this past Sunday talking about shades
of gay in relation to Jojo Seawalk kind of switching back.
And the thing is we recorded that that episode like
two weeks ago, and a lot has.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Changed since in two weeks.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Alie, like Fletcher, who has built her career around being
like a queer woman and like making queer music, is
dating a man and has apparently been dating a man for.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Like two years.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Whoa, And so the thing that bothers me is that
one this is being done in Pride month.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
It's like just it is.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
And then like also she erased all of her queer
content off of Instagram. Now, some people have said it's
because she does that with every album drop, she like
starts to slate.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
Clean, although I don't know.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
It makes me feel like she's erasing her queerness. And
on top of that, I'm like, Okay, we've got artists
that are allies of the LGBTQ community like that that
remain allies, you know, like Betty who is twice Yeah,
(06:27):
she's bisexual, but she's been dating a man for a
long time, but she still supports the community, you know.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
So what you're saying is you want Fletcher go ahead
and date the man, but don't give up your gayness
from before. Yeah, okay, let me challenge you with this.
And I'm not even as liberal as you, so let's
let me challenge you with this. What if really that
this is more about like celebrating the fact at Pride
Month that she can do whatever she wants, like slide,
be with man, be with a woman, be with everyone,
(06:56):
like come back around. Like, well, how about if that's
would that be all right?
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Yes, if that was clearly stated, but I feel like
that was not.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
She's just kind of like now with a man and
it's game over. Yeah, Yeah, And.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Then Billie Eilish is now dating a man.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
That's the one I can't take.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
But Okay, in her defense, I will say she never
came out came out like she kind of did and
then she kind of retracted it. But I'm like, you
just wrote Lunch like last year. Yeah, like and we
didn't even get like a girlfriend reveal after that, Like
you don't write a song like Lunch and not have
like a queer experience, And I'm just disappointed.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Yeah, no, I see that, I hear it. I guess
I feel like maybe because I live with my child
is in her. She's twenty one, and I see her
life and what you're describing as her. Yeah, it's just
kind of like.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
It is that is kind of like the fluidity that
we know.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
And I also don't feel like Billy's dropping her queer identity,
you know. And I hope to see her continue to
like support the community and perform those songs and you know,
not drop any of that. And I'm not saying that
Fletcher is saying that she's not going to perform those
songs anymore.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
But Billy's career was built on like pure talent.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Yeah, Fletcher's was built on watch it.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
Yeah, like look at me, r I sexy to queer women.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Okay, but okay to watch. Here's what I predict now
though it's going to happen. There's going to be a
huge fallout with her fan base. That probably would have
happened eventually anyway, because true, truly, these artists, the artists
that stick with us, like a Taylor Swift, are few
and far between. Most of them are here for a
few seasons and then you never hear about them again.
She's going to go away, and she would have probably naturally,
and she and her they will blame her coming going
(08:44):
back to men. They'll blame the demise of the career
on that, and that it's like reverse discrimination of street people.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Yeah, I could totally see something like they're playing out
because her fan base was so triggered queer women, and yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
It's triggering.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
It's like this is the thing that like contributes to
the biphobia, right, you know, like this is why lesbians
are often afraid to date by women. And again asterisk
not saying all by women. I'm just saying this doesn't
look good.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
For by women.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
It's a really bad look, guys. It's a really bad
really bad. Look you know what else though, what always
ends up happening? And if boyfriend, if you're listening, listen,
I've watched this play out a thousand times. Once they're
with a woman, they might hang with you for a minute.
They're coming back around. So your days are numbered, dude,
so enjoy it, enjoy it, have fun with this. She's
(09:37):
coming back around when she gets bored. I promise you
ninety percent of the time.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
Let's just wait. Let's just wait podcast in no time, Let's.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Wait it out. Let's wait it out. I don't know
any of her songs, I'm embarrassed to say so.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
I've seen her perform a couple of times, so I'm
like familiar with her work, and I mean, you know,
it's good, but it's good because it's like got actual,
like queer lyrics.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
So yeah, let's let's support people like our friend Brooke
Eden that we.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Had on I was just thinking that man, Brook's legit.
Brook is legit, And I'm in, like, I don't know
what it is about summer and living in Georgia. I'm
in a heavy country phase.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Like Lea to so solid lesbian yep, great music. Yes,
So two alternatives right there.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
I like it. I like it. Wow, the push is real.
It is they haven The lesbians don't fuck around. They
turn on you really quick. What's weird, though, is like
I get more gay all the time.
Speaker 5 (10:39):
I know that.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
It's like I don't know, like I literally get I'm
gayer with every passing day. Well, tell me about this
great guest guess that you've secured for us. Yes, we
have two guests, two for the price of one.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
We're joined by Chelsea and Katie and they are here
to share their story about how grief brought them together.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
I love this and I know this much, so I'm
so excited. Melissa gave me the high points and I'm
like very intrigued by this, this whole.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Name, this long summary. And she was like, yeah, I
guess I'm not very short winded here. That's okay, but
I convinced it for Ali and gave her the gist.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
But on here you can be long winded, so long winded.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
And the truth is, sometimes it's better when someone doesn't know,
because then I can ask my really crazy questions that
go places that are gonna make everyone uncomfortable.
Speaker 4 (11:39):
Okay, I still wanted to jump in when you're working
about Fletcher, because oh do she I just got TikTok
when I realized I was a lesbian at thirty three,
and I kind of only got on it because I
kept hearing about lesbian TikTok, so I wanted to check
that out. And so Fletcher was constantly on there and
I was like, Wow, she's like so comfortable and just
(12:01):
out there and like yeah that and me as like
still closeted, like I don't know how to come out.
Speaker 5 (12:06):
And do this. I was like, Wow, she's amazing. She's
this amazing lesbian idol.
Speaker 4 (12:11):
And then so now and I saw her last year
in concert and the best part was being surrounded by
lesbians because I've never sad and it was all like
every all of her fan dates, they were all lesbians there,
and would is amazing to be surrounded by lesbians. So
now I'm very sad that she's a man. It seems
to be like she's a racing all of it, like
on the Instagram post, like you said, so people are like,
(12:31):
she can date whoever she wants, but we're sad about
how she went about it.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
But Chelsea, is she how deep into this man is
she not literally, like what how many months in are we? Like,
is this like a fun couple of weekends or is
this like they.
Speaker 5 (12:47):
Said, two years?
Speaker 3 (12:48):
I heard two years.
Speaker 5 (12:50):
I heard I heard rumors a while ago that she
was dating a man, and I was.
Speaker 4 (12:53):
Like, noah, I heard the same, like she's always been women.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
As you know, Yeah, oh, two years.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
That's what the rumor is, that it's been two years.
And yeah, I started to hear this in the fall,
and I kind of wrote it off as just being
like everybody on the internet talks ye, so.
Speaker 4 (13:17):
T our night last night when you were talking about
PG movies, our night was not PG. Speaking of someone
who's openly by and proud of it, Halsey, we saw
her last night.
Speaker 5 (13:27):
It was amazing.
Speaker 4 (13:30):
Children there and I did not expect, like I knew
she was openly by.
Speaker 5 (13:34):
But her show is staffic, oh really staffic.
Speaker 4 (13:38):
Her and her dancers, Like I wish I had a
video of Katie's reaction because she her jaw was just
like like dropped the whole time because she heard her
dancers were doing some major So it made me think Fletcher.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
Who like, it's almost like burlesque. It sounds like Katie.
It sounds like you're like me, like, I'm like shocked
all the time. I think I'm just like I'm hard,
I'm a prude. And then it's like when people do stuff,
I'm like, whoa.
Speaker 6 (14:04):
Yeah, yeah, there were like some little kids behind us,
and on the way home, I told her to go.
That was a lot for little kids, I think, because
that was a lot for.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Me to watch exactly, like those eyes wide and just
that's amazing. I'm getting better, but I'm still pretty shocked
all the time and stuff.
Speaker 5 (14:24):
Yeah yeah, oh man, I'm still on a high from her.
Speaker 4 (14:28):
But yeah, so to get to start from the beginning
of our story, situation that all happens.
Speaker 5 (14:35):
So I lost my only sibling. Oh, I'm going to
try to try.
Speaker 4 (14:40):
I lost my only sibling, my big brother, in September
of twenty twenty three, so it's still pretty recent. And
then I got obviously darkest time of my life, terrible, broken,
just raw, awful and yeah.
Speaker 5 (14:55):
Very suddenly unexpected. He was thirty five. I'm thirty five,
just turned thirty five, So I'm like, this is wrong.
I shouldn't.
Speaker 4 (15:02):
He's my two year old, you know, it's two years
older than me, so he should be my older brother.
But now I've caught up to him, which is weird,
but so Katie though two months after but or two
months after he reached out to me though, oh yeah
because earlier.
Speaker 6 (15:18):
Well okay, So I lost my twin sister two months
prior to Chelsea's visiting her brother, and like Chelsea, Chelsea
and my sister were like acquaintances, kind of like on
their way to being in friends. They lived in the
same area, had kids at the same daycare, and then
myself I would meet Chelsea's brother like downtown at the bars,
(15:42):
like hanging out, and so we had both like met
each other's siblings and kind of like you know, across pass.
Speaker 5 (15:47):
Quite a few times. So when I found out about
her brother, I we didn't know, we didn't know each other.
Speaker 4 (15:53):
Yeah, we had never we had never met, just knew
each other's siblings as acquaintances.
Speaker 3 (15:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (15:57):
So I reached out to Chelsea just saying, like I
literally just lost my best friend. Like, if you need
somebody to talk to, please reach out, Like it might
be nice to have someone that like understands completely what
you're going through, because everybody's grief is different, right, I
can't I don't understand my mom's grief. I didn't lose
a child, so I just thought that this was like
(16:17):
the closest that I could get to somebody who fully understood.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
Yeah, and so we kind.
Speaker 5 (16:24):
Of build our own little grief support group because.
Speaker 4 (16:27):
Like, I know, you guys met in group, but I'm
like I can't imagine going which was a different situation,
but I'm like, I don't want to go cry about
my brother in front of our room full of strangers
that I don't know.
Speaker 5 (16:34):
But like Katie and.
Speaker 4 (16:35):
I just connected instantly and message back and forth like
when we'd be sad or sad memes the songs, but
they were grief songs to start with.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
I know, l So the minute that starts, I know
you're into me.
Speaker 4 (16:50):
So that's how, Yeah, we were just we just connected
and I couldn't even go out in public for a
while right after, Like I didn't want to go to
the grocery store a restaurant, and she was like we
should meet, and I'm like, I I can't go in public.
Speaker 5 (17:01):
I was just still in such a dark place. And
so we finally was it two months after we started messaging.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Was you're married, Like you're living your lives, You're married
with kids. Busy.
Speaker 4 (17:13):
Yeah, Katie was married no kids. I was married with
one son.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
Okay, so kind of busy because your life is light yeah.
Speaker 5 (17:21):
Continuous, ye, just like it's just for right, Yeah, completely
broke us. So yeah, so I was out.
Speaker 6 (17:32):
I used to watch my niece every Tuesday while my
brother in law golfed, and she don't want to go
on public so I'm like, hey, whant to come over
here after I put my niece down and we can
hang out till he gets back from golf.
Speaker 5 (17:43):
So that's what we did, and we just, like I.
Speaker 6 (17:47):
Don't the conversation just flows so easy and like it
wasn't awkward. It wasn't like small talk. It was just
like we don't almost like immediately just like got deep.
Speaker 4 (17:56):
Yeah you know, I don't know, like instantly comfortable with
each other. And we talked, but then we started talking
about so many other things too. That first meeting.
Speaker 5 (18:04):
We were there like.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
All night, and it was just like an immediate chemistry comfort.
That's but you're still greed that you're talking about the
loss of your siblings. It's not romantic at all at
this time.
Speaker 4 (18:20):
No, no, no, And I had no idea that I
even was attracted to women at all, Like no idea.
Now I'm now I've discovered all these little easter eggs,
but were lesbian.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
TikTok at this point. No, okay, we're going to.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Be like wait a minute.
Speaker 4 (18:37):
Yeah, I've always had like really intense, deep friendships with women.
Speaker 5 (18:42):
So like I always kind of because you have Unlissa,
you always.
Speaker 4 (18:45):
Talk about how you avoided women, and I'm the opposite,
Like I surrounded myself with women, and I'm like, I
have always loved women and just not I didn't realize
how much. But I've always had like really deep, intense
emotional connections and like deep friendships. But I kind of
thought that's how everyone's friendships were. I didn't think anything
of it. I always though I was going to marry
the man, have babies. I always wanted to be a mom,
(19:07):
you know, go to college, do the whole thing you're
supposed to do. So that's what I did. It never
crossed my mind to that I could be attracted to
a woman like romantically. Just always wanted to be friends
with you know, made friends with women easily, but had
no idea.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
And you were the same, Katie, like you weren't you
both were just showing up there to support each other.
Speaker 5 (19:27):
And Katie was married.
Speaker 4 (19:28):
To a woman, so she knew she okay, yeah eighteen nineteen,
I think, yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Okay, so then that happened. You have this like healing conversation,
and then how does that eventually start to more so?
Speaker 5 (19:43):
So the second time we hung out, we went to
a winery on a san day. They were open noon
to five. We opened and then let me ask you.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Something, Katie, because you're married, you were married to a woman.
Was she starting to be like what the hell is happening?
Or no?
Speaker 5 (20:01):
Yeah? So I think eventually.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
She was.
Speaker 5 (20:05):
I don't have like, I don't know.
Speaker 6 (20:07):
Like a close knit group of friends, and so I
was really excited to like find somebody that like lost
the sibling, yeah lost then, and also had like the
same views and like the same I don't know. There
were just so many things that we just clicked on,
and so I was just really excited to like have
a friend. And my ex knew that, like I would
get excited when I meet new people, so it wasn't
(20:29):
really anything different.
Speaker 5 (20:31):
It was so innocent, like literally grief support and you're married.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
A man, so you're really safe.
Speaker 4 (20:37):
Yeah, yeah, I was in therapy after lousing my brother,
and I remember saying, like, I just it's just I
just want to be around her all of the time,
Like I want to spend all my time with her.
All of a sudden, I can't stop thinking about her.
But we, you know, we talked it up to just
being comfortable with each other and we had this deep
bond of sharing grief of our only siblings.
Speaker 5 (20:54):
And yeah, at the winery though, she made a comment.
Speaker 7 (20:58):
Oh by, we were we were talking about sexualities of people,
and she goes, well, I don't know, I think everybody's
a little by And I'm like, is that?
Speaker 4 (21:10):
Yeah, I didn't know, And I didn't think anything of
it either, that I really do always think women and
I did like the thing in middle.
Speaker 5 (21:16):
School where you kiss girls because the boys encourage it.
But I didn't, like, I think anything of it.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
That is true, like I think that every woman's there's
no one who's completely off limits.
Speaker 4 (21:27):
Yeah, I agree, So I was just making an innocent
well I think everyone's little vine. And then later Katie
was like, I was fun turking when you mean that comment,
But she didn't.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
She didn't dial in do it because probably you're just
like that's far fetched.
Speaker 4 (21:40):
Yeah, sure, but then we were going we were going
like out to the bar sometimes and then like long walks, long.
Speaker 5 (21:48):
Walks in the woods. But I would get.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
At the bar, guys getting me said in the woods.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
Just like a lesbian wood.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Katie, whose idea was the woods, I have to know,
it's actually not surprising. The straight woman is so aggressive
because they want it so fucking bad that there in
the woods. That actually that that actually tracks that I
don't even need to know her. That's fully tracked in the.
Speaker 5 (22:26):
World, just getting dark out right, don't get lost.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
Who's the predatory lesbian?
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Now, it's always the straight woman. Every time.
Speaker 4 (22:38):
We would have like these really long hubs that I
also didn't saying my girlfriends and I are like my
friends that are girls and I are very like close,
like I don't know.
Speaker 5 (22:50):
Like taking towers together isn't weird?
Speaker 4 (22:52):
And the more I was telling Katie about my friends
weird a minute.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
She just tried to drop the bomb.
Speaker 8 (22:58):
Then keep going, I've taken exactly zero showers with my friends,
zero showers, zero row zero.
Speaker 5 (23:13):
Let's stop.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
At age four, Chelsea is fucking gay as hell. Oh
my god, I've learned.
Speaker 5 (23:18):
I've learned that.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Okay, so Chelsea's got you deep in the woods and
she happened to bring camping gear. Okay, so now you're
in the woods potentially, it's getting dark, it's getting dark
and lost.
Speaker 4 (23:40):
We were having one of the long hugs and then
like I don't know, I had a weird okay, so
back even before before this though, she was dropping me
off at my vehicle once and I had this urge
to kiss her, and it was like I thought I
was losing my damn mind.
Speaker 5 (23:57):
Like I've never like, I guess I have friends that
were super close.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
I'm sure you guys kiss you kissing the shower.
Speaker 5 (24:06):
I've never been like I've never been. I always just.
Speaker 4 (24:09):
Thought everyone could appreciate. I thought everyone thought women's bodies were.
Speaker 5 (24:12):
More attractive than men. I thought that was just that.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
I remember having that same thought too.
Speaker 4 (24:16):
It was like, of, of course, obviously women are more attractive,
so I thought, will the beast like yeah, So I
really didn't think anything of it, but I was like,
why do I have this urge to kiss her? That's
so weird, And like I'm grieving at this point, like deep, deep,
deep and having grief. All of a sudden want to
kiss this woman. I want to spend all my time
(24:38):
with her. I can't stop thinking about her. I had
no idea what was going on.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
And are you also texting throughout the week like you're communication?
Oh boy, okay, yeah, this is textbook Okay. So then
so then you obviously don't kiss her because you're thinking
I'm married and I've got all these other things.
Speaker 4 (24:58):
Yes, okay, yeah, And and the thing was like we knew
we weren't going to stop hanging out, like we also
had the you know, the support of like having someone
who understood, and even though I do have really supportive friends,
it was obviously different having someone who knew what I
was going through of losing a sibling and watching your
parents go through that and the awfulness of that. So
(25:19):
I thought I just wanted to be around her all.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
And then, Katie, were you feeling were you starting to
pick up the vibe of like this woman is smalling,
like she's starting to be into me?
Speaker 5 (25:29):
No? Absolutely not. Still no married woman.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
You know you're good? Yeah, okay, I didn't know she
wanted more. Okay I didn't.
Speaker 5 (25:39):
I didn't either at the time.
Speaker 3 (25:40):
Maydie, we're one and the same. I wouldn't have realized either.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
I would have been like that what am I doing
until it was said out.
Speaker 6 (25:45):
Loud, there's no there's no yeah, there's no option for friends.
Speaker 4 (25:51):
They were like, oh, like we're not going to stop
hanging out and seeing each other and how are we
supposed to not?
Speaker 5 (25:57):
Well, once you realize that you are in fact attracted
to women, is like.
Speaker 4 (26:02):
So are you by And I'm like, I don't, I
don't know, Like no, I don't think, I don't know,
ye want to kiss you? So I did that thing
where I'm like, maybe it's just this person and I'm
not you know, I'm like, maybe I'm not lessy, Maybe
it's just this person who's bringing this out in me. Well,
then I also thought like everyone's gonna be like Chelsea's grieving,
she's lost her she lost her brother, and now she's
gay all of a sudden, you know, yeah, like.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
A like a trauma bond of sorts where you're like, yeah,
And then was your marriage good? Get rate your marriage
zero to ten?
Speaker 4 (26:31):
Well, I mean like everything seemed I thought like I
thought I was happy and really yeah, and then grief
kind of makes you like address things you didn't even
realize we're under the surface too, and like we kind
of did live. We had different priorities of things we
wanted to do. Like he's very like hunting fishing. If
I wanted if I went on a trip somewhere, I
(26:51):
would go with like my seven girlfriends like we would
we would go on trips together, Like I would go
do things with them and he would go hunt the fish.
And we kind of I realized like we didn't really
make plans together much, but we'd been we were both
kind of in the same place as in our marriages
because we've been together for fifteen ish years or I
was twelve years. Yeah, so we were both feeling like
(27:12):
we were in a.
Speaker 5 (27:12):
Roommate like a roommate phase kind of. Yeah, for sure,
the I don't know, there was romantic aspect was gone.
The intimacy, Yeah, we talked about that and like it
was just gone. It had been gone for a long time.
Speaker 6 (27:26):
But we were just like, oh, this is you know,
kind of settled, like I can deal with this for
the rest of my life, you know. And then it
was kind of like there was this spark back and
I'm like, oh, like this is.
Speaker 5 (27:39):
Why don't feel this way?
Speaker 3 (27:41):
Then?
Speaker 4 (27:42):
Are top to suppress their emotions, which is a shame
for everybody in the world, I think. But it's sad
because I, like I didn't realize I was getting my
emotional needs met from other people.
Speaker 5 (27:53):
And then so then when.
Speaker 4 (27:55):
I realized, I'm like, oh, this is emotional needs and
physical and all the things that I realized was an
option really And yeah, we were both just like comfortable.
Probably if it wasn't for grief, we wouldn't have, like
realized my therapist is, but like you probably wouldn't have
realized all these things if it wasn't for the perfect storm.
Speaker 5 (28:13):
Of grief, like I had the double double catalyst situation.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
Yeah, I never thought of it like that. That's so true.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
But one thing that I've noticed is like a very
common theme and a lot of people who come out
later is losing someone and kind of like that realization
of your own mortality, Like life is fucking short. You
never know when it's going to be over. Was that
something that you guys were both kind of thinking about, Like, oh,
I think that.
Speaker 5 (28:46):
Unfortunately we hurt people on the process. I could not
we did not do this right. But with the grief
and every like just being so deep down.
Speaker 4 (28:57):
My mind at the time was literally like I could
die tomorrow, so why does it matter what I do?
Speaker 5 (29:02):
Exactly like this, that was very just. It doesn't like
life is short, it doesn't matter, nothing permanent like, so
I kind.
Speaker 4 (29:08):
Of didn't wasn't thinking about the consequences of my actions
and that this would start a whole domino effect. I
was literally just doing something that felt good and fight
like in such a dark place and this felt good
that I have parts.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
You can get.
Speaker 5 (29:20):
Yeah, so we're just chasing that good feeling constantly.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
How long did the from the beginning of when you
just you were like relating to each other, how long
did that growth phase of like these feelings are developing
and developing until it was like okay, wow, this is
a thing. And then from then how long till you
were I guess together.
Speaker 6 (29:44):
Yeah, I would say that we, I don't know, started
realizing we had deeper feelings than just friends, like a
few months later, and then we just it got messy,
like really messy.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
I feel like there's no way for it not no, yeah.
Speaker 5 (30:00):
Yeah, you know. Chelsea didn't want to blow up her
family and.
Speaker 6 (30:04):
All these things. She was kind of back and forth
trying to decide what was best for her. So and
that probably took a year actually, and not trusting myself
to make a decision when they say when you're grieving,
don't make any sudden life changes or decisions.
Speaker 5 (30:17):
So I'm like, I'm I don't.
Speaker 4 (30:18):
Trust myself to make a decision, or like I was
still figuring out grieving, figuring out my sexuality, like oh,
this is starting to make sense.
Speaker 5 (30:26):
What's funny is my brother. When we were younger, I
think my brother totally.
Speaker 4 (30:29):
Knew and he would be like, you're a lesbian, and
he would call my friends and I he.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Got up there and he was like first order of business,
I know.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Exactly.
Speaker 4 (30:39):
I even like in high school even he would like
call my friends and I out and be like, you
guys are lesbians.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
You guys are showering together. You were, in fact lesbians.
Speaker 4 (30:50):
But now I'm like, so, women were like throwing themselves
at my brother constantly, and so we would be at
the gym together and people would be like are you together,
Like they would think we're a couple because it's just
a guy and a girl together, and I'd have to
be like no, like and so, and I think he
was would kept like I didn't even pick up on that.
I was like, I was checking women out, but I'd
be like, oh, Nick, like you know yeah like nice yeah,
(31:12):
like but now I'm like, oh, I've been doing that
this whole time, just appreciating women's bodies. And actually, a
year before losing my brother, I was at a bombfire
with my friend who had recently realized she's by and
kind of came out to friends that publicly. Really, but
she she's like, we had been drinking around the bonfire.
So I I don't even remember when I started watching
(31:34):
lesbian porn.
Speaker 5 (31:35):
But I was like, probably in my twenties at some point.
But I told her.
Speaker 4 (31:38):
I was like, well, yeah when I when I do
watch it, it's it's lesbians.
Speaker 5 (31:42):
And she's like I knew it, Like what are you talking?
What are you talking about? And I was in such
I had not I'm like, just because I watch like,
that's I.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
Don't like, it's not just because you. I think it's
like that's one more Yeah yeah.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
That would rather watch lesbian born anyway, but.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
If you add up, then yeah, okay, this is starting
to look very gay.
Speaker 5 (32:10):
Well and she realized too, like I was kind of
I would get jealous of her. So we had like
one of those.
Speaker 4 (32:13):
Friendships where neither of us realized we were into women,
but we had like a very intense friendship. I would
get kind of jealous, not realizing it if she got
like like no one.
Speaker 5 (32:22):
Was ever good enough for her, and like, ah, this
guy sucks. And then but it was obviously one of.
Speaker 4 (32:26):
Those intents where you're like almost pseudo dating but didn't even.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Like no idea like an emotional relationship. Yeah, So then
who said it first? And how well?
Speaker 4 (32:37):
We were on one of our walks in the woods
were we were hugging and then she kind of like
lingered like we we separated, but she kind of lingered
like she had her hands still on my shoulders and
we were just really close and like it kind of
which I just realized I also have ADHD id just
(32:59):
got diagnosed late, but I kind of it so it
kind of slipped out. I didn't really even mean to
say it, but it slipped out like I.
Speaker 5 (33:04):
Really want to. I think I said I really want
to kiss you or something. It made me really want
to kiss you.
Speaker 6 (33:08):
Want to, So we were like face to face and
I'm like, no, like this can't happen even if it
hurts people.
Speaker 5 (33:18):
And she's like, yeah, no, we didn't kiss that. No
we didn't. We didn't kiss them, but we did hold
hands up the whole way back.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Katie, did you know that was coming?
Speaker 5 (33:27):
No?
Speaker 1 (33:28):
I didn't.
Speaker 5 (33:29):
Then you still didn't. I still did it.
Speaker 6 (33:32):
I had no idea that she felt that way, And
as soon as she said it, my heart started pounding
and I was like, oh, oh, maybe this is why
it feels deeper than just a friendship. Like then I
started realizing that I probably had more feelings for her too.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
Yeah right, oh my god. Yeah, okay, so then then
what do you do with that?
Speaker 4 (33:53):
It was confusing as hell, very confusing, and I was
I was back and forth with like, you know, I can't,
and I again didn't really realize where it was all
going to lead to, or that it would blow everything up,
which obviously, when you you're married and then you're wanting
to spend all your time with someone else not a
good sign. But I really was just I mean, my
(34:16):
brain wasn't even working right anyway, with grieving and everything.
Speaker 5 (34:19):
I was just like, this feels good.
Speaker 4 (34:20):
I'm gonna keep doing this, living day to day, like
you know, Yeah, there.
Speaker 5 (34:24):
Was a lot to process. I am.
Speaker 6 (34:26):
I was having like issues in my marriage before then,
like trying to work through it with my therapist, and
then that happened, and I'm like, oh my god.
Speaker 5 (34:34):
Like I don't know what to do.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
Yeah, because you're.
Speaker 4 (34:36):
A wife, had the same therapists, like, oh, then we split,
Like I say that, but but how do.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
You cause you're you know, it's one thing to be
in a straight marriage and then realizing you're gay, so
that it's like you have this like reason. But then
I think it's almost like harder in some ways for
Katie because it's like she's you're with a woman, then
you're there's no other reason to leave except for you
met this compelling person, right, and then how do you
(35:08):
even go about Like I don't even know how you
impact that with her?
Speaker 5 (35:12):
Which she was a lot quicker than me. Okay, maybe
because I had started processing it sooner. I think marriage
was over.
Speaker 6 (35:19):
Like making me happy anymore. Yeah, I mean it was
like probably a year before that. My sister and I
were kind of talking about it and I was crying
to her and I'm like, what do you mean like divorce?
Speaker 5 (35:29):
I don't want to get divorced. And then through working
through therapy and stuff like that.
Speaker 6 (35:34):
I just, you know, we just lost it. Well I
lost it, she didn't, which was even worse.
Speaker 5 (35:41):
But yeah, we're not attracted to your house anymore.
Speaker 4 (35:45):
Like we really were both in that place of like
we lost that spark and obviously having a son, I
didn't want to.
Speaker 5 (35:51):
I was like, I can't.
Speaker 4 (35:52):
I'd never imagine like a divorce in my life ever thought.
I thought that was going to be my life forever,
and then everything got flipped upside down.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Obviously, yeah I can't now, Like you both are like
admittedly saying, you know, this wasn't the right path to take.
What would you have done differently, Like if there's someone
listening to this that's like in a similar situation, Like
what advice do you have for like your past selves.
Speaker 4 (36:18):
So I started listening to your podcast and binge the
entire thing. And that was when I was like, oh,
I'm not crazy, I'm just gay, Like I'm not living
my mind. This is the thing that happens, and it
because it really wasn't talking about. So I'm glad there's
a lot more resources now and for everyone that came
on your podcast, So thankful for because I'm sharing their
stories has been so like I've resonated with pieces of
(36:40):
all of it. But I wish, well, so when you
you so that you talked to your husbands about it,
I'm like, oh, that would have you know that that would.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
Have been a step.
Speaker 5 (36:50):
Yeah, so, and I wish I had been able to
communicate that to him.
Speaker 4 (36:55):
But I had no idea where to even start, because
I had no idea what was even going on with me,
Like I really I was just losing my.
Speaker 5 (37:01):
Mind and like this was just I had no idea
of what it was.
Speaker 4 (37:04):
Going to become or how to sort out my feelings.
So I didn't even know how to bring it up
or approach it with him. And I wish I had
been able to figure that out, Like I wish I
had had that conversation with.
Speaker 5 (37:14):
Him, like I'm feeling this way, But again I don't
think I wanted to.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
I don't think I was ready to start that dominoes.
Speaker 4 (37:21):
Yeah, the dominoes of like once you open that can
of worms, Like I didn't even tell Like one of
my my friends figured it out because she she's the
one that had figured out she was by and she
was like looking at like she'd see when I'd get
a text from Katie. I'd be like smiling and we
were texting and like, you know, she my Friend's like, hey,
she's married, and I'm like, well, I still was in denial.
I was like, what are you Like, I didn't see
(37:43):
it coming. I still like, what are you talking about?
Like we're just friends.
Speaker 5 (37:46):
I think. I think from like my standpoint, the advice
I was would give is to like, I don't know,
just stay back a little bit and let her figure
her shit out. Yeah, because I was. I always told her,
you know, like you have to make the best decision
for what you need in your life, don't I don't
really worry about my feelings.
Speaker 6 (38:06):
Like, yeah, I'll be hurt, but you got to live
your life. So I just think that it was extremely hard,
like falling so hard for Chelsea and then for her
to not be like one hundred percent yet.
Speaker 9 (38:18):
Yeah, yeah that was hard, and then just to like
sit back and like watch her try with her family
and her husband, and I'm like, Okay, then I'm gone,
like I need to start from square one.
Speaker 6 (38:32):
Like I got on dating apps and we tried multiple
times to create distance, but we just kept getting drawn
back to each other. But for somebody who is in
my position, I would just say, like be patient.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
She was.
Speaker 4 (38:44):
She wasn't really supportive, Like I know, catalysts get a
lot of negative heat, but Katie was really supportive.
Speaker 5 (38:51):
And it's not about me. It's not about me at all,
you know.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
I think I like what you said though about let her.
If you can be just a friend who's not like
having ten opinions about how her coming out and leaving
the marriage, if you can just if you can do that,
most people can't do that, Katie. But if you can
do that, that to me is like the most loving
thing you can do, because otherwise you're right, like it's
(39:17):
she to leave a marriage prematurely, you end up with
all this what if or like regret around it.
Speaker 5 (39:24):
It's like, oh, exactly, yeah, that's what's that gonna do
for your relationship?
Speaker 1 (39:29):
The line, Yeah, you're gonna end up divorced towards right.
So it's just that's such good advice, like I and
like you said, I mean, staying patient, But also like
this would be so hard for me to like keep
my mouth shut, don't have an opinion about the husband,
don't have an opinion about that. You guys just went
on a vacation together with the kids. Like it's yeah,
(39:50):
that's hard as fuck.
Speaker 7 (39:52):
No, I did.
Speaker 4 (39:52):
We did try to take a step back because I
was like, I need to, like my head, you know.
Speaker 5 (39:56):
I'm like, I just need to like I need to silence.
Speaker 4 (39:58):
The noise and like figure out what I should do
because this is gonna affect my son's life, everyone's life,
and I always hurt literally hurting everybody in the process.
Speaker 5 (40:07):
So I'm like, I really need to figure out and
make a decision.
Speaker 4 (40:10):
Like I'm you know, everyone's just like left hanging. So
I needed to figure out my own stuff. So then
we tried to.
Speaker 5 (40:17):
Not talk, which was really really hard because we had,
you know, each other's locations, so we were on the
boat having a family both day.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
Yeah, you with your family.
Speaker 5 (40:34):
Handle that, Like I just I couldn't say anything because
it's not wrong of her to do that, you know,
I'm just jealous.
Speaker 3 (40:41):
Yeah, I think that's an excellent point.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Though it is hard to like take a back seat
in that during that time, but it's also like so
necessary and it's gonna like if you really want to
be with this person in the future, like that's the
best approach. So like you know in your heart, like
what the true feelings that are happening like, And it
does take time, like Chelsea's saying, like it takes time
(41:03):
to like make that decision and unravel and have those
hard conversations with your your husband too, like he needs
to understand.
Speaker 4 (41:10):
That being honest and for trying to work it out.
Even though I mean, yeah, there was some I wish
I could go back and do it completely differently and
have those open, honest conversations for sure, Like should have
gone to therapy together probably years before.
Speaker 5 (41:26):
Well I should have done that with my ex wife too.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
She Yeah, it's like, you know you would end up
in the same space, but you think that you would
have like cushioned the blow.
Speaker 5 (41:37):
Right, Oh yeah, for sure. I think it's like, really,
we're trying to navigate on charted territory.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
It's excited, excited about excited about each other. So it's like,
also you're fighting this reckless desire to be together. Mm hmmm, du.
Speaker 5 (41:53):
Thing that feel good?
Speaker 4 (41:55):
When we were like nothing was you know, like I said,
I wasn't even leave in the house, like nothing was
making me feel good.
Speaker 5 (42:00):
I was just in a dark place. And then I
met her and we just that was the feeling good.
Speaker 4 (42:07):
Yeah, it was like a drug for sure, And it
was so like all of it was so out of
character for me too. So my friends were like, once
people did start figuring it out, They're like, what the
hell are you doing? You know, this is just so
unlike you. And then if we live in a small town,
so it was starting to get around. My friend's realtor
was like, what's going on with all the bartender stone town?
Like everybody was talking about it, and you don't forget.
(42:27):
I'm like, I was just gonna think I lost my mind,
or that Katie like.
Speaker 5 (42:35):
She did. She didn't make me gay. She helped me.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
Realize and I like that everybody knows Katie wasn't the
one dragging you into the woods or making with her friends.
This is so clear to me. He was the aggressor here.
I don't need.
Speaker 4 (42:54):
I also went to I went to Catholic school when
I was younger, and like, so it just wasn't I
don't know, it just.
Speaker 5 (43:01):
Wasn't an option mesic. It was just man and woman.
Speaker 4 (43:04):
And you get married, like I got in trouble for time.
My sweatshirtter around my waist in elementary school, like I
had a nun for a teacher, so.
Speaker 5 (43:11):
I was just yeah, you just do the right thing,
and you know, you get good grades. And like I
never I was like the good kid.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
I relate to that so hard. They're just it was
never even on the radar of being an option, and.
Speaker 5 (43:24):
Then you're worried about letting everyone else down. Yeah, that's
what it was at my school too.
Speaker 6 (43:29):
It was rough to I don't know, everyone was pretty
conservative again small town.
Speaker 5 (43:34):
Then I moved up to go to college here and
just let loose.
Speaker 6 (43:39):
There was a bar that hosted gay night every Tuesday night,
Like I think I'm gonna go check it out. Well,
I fell in love with it, and then I and
my friends I'm like, let's go to gay night. And
they're like why, and I'm like, no, guy's gonna dance
on you, try and take you home, like we just
have fun and dance.
Speaker 5 (43:55):
When the guys aren't, you know, crowding you.
Speaker 4 (43:57):
I U to get so annoyed too, and guys would
come talk to my friends and I like, oh.
Speaker 5 (44:00):
Like leave us alone. We're having a girl. Makes sense.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
With the guys, It's like all they want a sister.
Speaker 6 (44:14):
My sister goes yeah, I know you try to go
to every single game height.
Speaker 5 (44:19):
Yeah, like you're always trying to go to gay night obviously.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
How long have you all been now? Are you married?
Speaker 5 (44:25):
No? No, we moved in together. Yeah so about six nice.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (44:33):
Yeah, so we did the thing where you move right
in and you don't waste any time.
Speaker 5 (44:37):
Of course, we've known each other.
Speaker 3 (44:39):
I was gonna say the long road before.
Speaker 4 (44:42):
So yeah, it's nice to finally like work. We just
want to move forward and try to yourselves.
Speaker 5 (44:49):
Yeah, ourselves.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
I love it. Well, I think that is an amazing
place to wrap. I love that.
Speaker 3 (44:55):
Thank you guys so much. I'm sorry it took so
long for us to get you on, but yeah, it's
great we finally made it happen.
Speaker 5 (45:01):
So joking too because Katie.
Speaker 4 (45:04):
I think Katie was messaging Allie and she's talking about
catalysts and how it's all negative stuff, and then she's like,
I want to be a positive catalyst and she's like,
do you want to be on I'm like, I've been
messaging with them for like a year or now, it's.
Speaker 5 (45:15):
Never been asked to be on the podcast.
Speaker 1 (45:17):
I think, well, probably the Catalyst episode is one that
needs to happen because to me, it's like my growth
around that position in this process has drastically changed. I'm
almost like a team catalyst more than I'm team into
the woods Woman straight woman, because I think, like I feel,
(45:38):
I have such empathy for these people now, like looking back,
it's like, oh my god, I when you're in the
throes of coming out, like Chelsea myself, Melissa work, you're
so it's not selfish. It's like you've got a family,
you've got a child, you've got I had to do
these certain things, and it's like her needs that was
(45:59):
like tenth the list of things that I had to
deal with, even though I wanted her.
Speaker 5 (46:04):
And it's just.
Speaker 6 (46:07):
Honestly, I think, like tell you, it sent me all
these episodes of years to listen to and that really
helped me like understand like where she's at.
Speaker 5 (46:15):
Yeah, but then some of these catalysts ones, I'm like
a crazy catalyst. All these people are so shy, I.
Speaker 1 (46:25):
Know, I mean, who knows like where she's at, like
and who knows in the real world. Like had we
met our catalysts different in a different way later on,
maybe it would have been different. I don't know. I
put her through fucking hell.
Speaker 3 (46:44):
I don't know. I'm not changing course on mine.
Speaker 5 (46:49):
It sounds like it was.
Speaker 1 (46:52):
You they did. Everybody's at fault.
Speaker 3 (46:56):
It's a tough space for sure.
Speaker 5 (46:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:58):
Well, thank you guys, so thank so so much, thank you,
thank you excellent. We'll enjoy the rest of your day.
Speaker 7 (47:05):
You do things.
Speaker 5 (47:06):
Bye bye bye.
Speaker 3 (47:11):
I want to support the Lesbian Chronicles podcast.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
Rate us and write a review on Apple podcast or Spotify.
Speaker 1 (47:17):
We'd love listener feedback. If you'd like to share your story,
email us at Melissa and Ali at gmail dot com.
That's Melissa M. E. L I. S A and Ali
A L. L I at gmail dot com. Or follow
us on Instagram at Lesbian Chronicles
I'm Alie. I came out after twenty years of marriage
and I have three kids.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'm Melissa and I have two kids, and I came
out at thirty seven after an eleven year marriage.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
This podcast is about coming out later and the struggles
and victories that come with it.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
When coming out feels like the end of the world,
but it's really just the beginning.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
This is the Lesbian Chronicles. Welcome to the last few chronicles. Hi,
where Melissa almost didn't make it because she's shopping.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
I was shopping. I'll be real here.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
We don't want to say today line friendship for forty
five minutes to buy a pair of bloodstones.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Damn, I would have been losing my mind. Well, there
you go, the deal of the day.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
I'm proud of my bargain.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Okay, yeah, I actually am so surprised. I bought blunstones
a while ago, and I never wore them. They just
like sat in a closet, and then one day I
wore them, like I just I needed them. It was raining.
I was like, I'm just gonna wear them, and now
I wear them all the time. It's like I just
needed that one wear and now I wear them all
the time.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
But those things they will last forever. They're like waterproof,
they're warm.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
I did wear.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Them when I was in Colorado last time, and not
gonna lie almost eight shit.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
A few times on the sidewalks, okay. Not great for
ice okay, but all in all, great shoe. They're very expensive,
but I have a pair of black ones.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
I bought a pair of brown once today. But in
my eyes, I'm like, these things are gonna last me.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
Like thirty years.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Yeah, if we're still are we still wearing bloodstones on
thirty years?
Speaker 2 (01:38):
I mean I've been wearing my Doc Martins for thirty years.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Wow. Okay, then the answers yes yes, and the answers
yes yes, it's time going to be.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
How old will I be in thirty years eighty? No, wait,
that's not right. Seventy four?
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Well that really it fits well with my utilitarian closet exactly, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
Well.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
What I wanted to bring up to you that like
was shocking for me last night is I'm doing a
whole like because the kid owns home from college reads here,
so we're doing like vintage like watching old movies. I'm
talking like breakfast club like classics that I fucking loved.
And so last night's movie with sixteen candles PG harmless Dude,
(02:20):
there's full frontal of Jake Ryan's girlfriend in the shower, nipples,
boobs and nothingg PG. I've got my little read, my
little seventh grader sitting next to me. I literally my
jaw dropped. It wasn't like a huge deal, but I
just didn't expect it. Like literally the girlfriend is full
(02:42):
body in the shower, nipples, boobs out.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
That is wild, like because the thing is I want
to show my kids some of these movies and then
all there's a there's a website. I think it's called
like common sense Media.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Okay, we're gonna tell you, like be.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
Aware of this stuff in this movie.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Do I look like the kind of mom that's checking
common sense media before I fire the movie? I wasn't.
I looked at PG. I'm like, we're cuddled up in
the bag.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
I would think PG would be okay.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Yeah, we got frontal.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
I thought you were gonna say how problematic, how problematic
it is that like they're dragging this drunk girl around,
like dragging the.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Drunk girl around, and then how about how they treat
the foreign exchange student that too. Red was like like,
especially to my kids who are like so PC on
everything every time wild I was dying and they're having
him like love America because he's getting laid and like partying.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
What I missed the days of like TBS though, when
you could like watch a movie on TV and like
it was edited like yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
You're right, like they would take out the bad stuff.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
Mm hmmm.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Yeah. So his eyes were like saucers, like when I
walked over, it's like just your memory for Reid, it's
a core memory with me in the bed so fucked up.
I was laying let me finish the store exactly. I mean,
he does have a big sister, so we've seen lots
(04:15):
of boobs, but to see like this woman in that
kind of setting naked was like wow. And then I'm
like do I cover your eyes or like are we
just like over there? I don't.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
I don't want to make it kind of like not
make a big deal about it.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
I also sort of have mixed feelings about like why
are we covering up? Like I get triggered. I get
so triggered by the men in my yoga class who
take their shirts off and they're like gross with their
like shirt off and their sweating and their nipples, and
I'm thinking, like, why are you, like, dude, there's something
triggering about that to me, Like why can't then I
(04:49):
take mine off? I guess I'm taking mine off, dude.
I go for it, Like I mean, I'm like, why
is it? Though? Why? I don't know.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
It doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
And nobody seems to like say the thing, I don't
gonna start jogging around Kirkwood topless.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
I think you should.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
I want to make a statement.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
The other thing I wanted to point out because we
just aired this episode this past Sunday talking about shades
of gay in relation to Jojo Seawalk kind of switching back.
And the thing is we recorded that that episode like
two weeks ago, and a lot has.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Changed since in two weeks.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Alie, like Fletcher, who has built her career around being
like a queer woman and like making queer music, is
dating a man and has apparently been dating a man for.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Like two years.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Whoa, And so the thing that bothers me is that
one this is being done in Pride month.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
It's like just it is.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
And then like also she erased all of her queer
content off of Instagram. Now, some people have said it's
because she does that with every album drop, she like
starts to slate.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
Clean, although I don't know.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
It makes me feel like she's erasing her queerness. And
on top of that, I'm like, Okay, we've got artists
that are allies of the LGBTQ community like that that
remain allies, you know, like Betty who is twice Yeah,
(06:27):
she's bisexual, but she's been dating a man for a
long time, but she still supports the community, you know.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
So what you're saying is you want Fletcher go ahead
and date the man, but don't give up your gayness
from before. Yeah, okay, let me challenge you with this.
And I'm not even as liberal as you, so let's
let me challenge you with this. What if really that
this is more about like celebrating the fact at Pride
Month that she can do whatever she wants, like slide,
be with man, be with a woman, be with everyone,
(06:56):
like come back around. Like, well, how about if that's
would that be all right?
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Yes, if that was clearly stated, but I feel like
that was not.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
She's just kind of like now with a man and
it's game over. Yeah, Yeah, And.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Then Billie Eilish is now dating a man.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
That's the one I can't take.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
But Okay, in her defense, I will say she never
came out came out like she kind of did and
then she kind of retracted it. But I'm like, you
just wrote Lunch like last year. Yeah, like and we
didn't even get like a girlfriend reveal after that, Like
you don't write a song like Lunch and not have
like a queer experience, And I'm just disappointed.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Yeah, no, I see that, I hear it. I guess
I feel like maybe because I live with my child
is in her. She's twenty one, and I see her
life and what you're describing as her. Yeah, it's just
kind of like.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
It is that is kind of like the fluidity that
we know.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
And I also don't feel like Billy's dropping her queer identity,
you know. And I hope to see her continue to
like support the community and perform those songs and you know,
not drop any of that. And I'm not saying that
Fletcher is saying that she's not going to perform those
songs anymore.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
But Billy's career was built on like pure talent.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Yeah, Fletcher's was built on watch it.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
Yeah, like look at me, r I sexy to queer women.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Okay, but okay to watch. Here's what I predict now
though it's going to happen. There's going to be a
huge fallout with her fan base. That probably would have
happened eventually anyway, because true, truly, these artists, the artists
that stick with us, like a Taylor Swift, are few
and far between. Most of them are here for a
few seasons and then you never hear about them again.
She's going to go away, and she would have probably naturally,
and she and her they will blame her coming going
(08:44):
back to men. They'll blame the demise of the career
on that, and that it's like reverse discrimination of street people.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Yeah, I could totally see something like they're playing out
because her fan base was so triggered queer women, and yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
It's triggering.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
It's like this is the thing that like contributes to
the biphobia, right, you know, like this is why lesbians
are often afraid to date by women. And again asterisk
not saying all by women. I'm just saying this doesn't
look good.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
For by women.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
It's a really bad look, guys. It's a really bad
really bad. Look you know what else though, what always
ends up happening? And if boyfriend, if you're listening, listen,
I've watched this play out a thousand times. Once they're
with a woman, they might hang with you for a minute.
They're coming back around. So your days are numbered, dude,
so enjoy it, enjoy it, have fun with this. She's
(09:37):
coming back around when she gets bored. I promise you
ninety percent of the time.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
Let's just wait. Let's just wait podcast in no time, Let's.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Wait it out. Let's wait it out. I don't know
any of her songs, I'm embarrassed to say so.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
I've seen her perform a couple of times, so I'm
like familiar with her work, and I mean, you know,
it's good, but it's good because it's like got actual,
like queer lyrics.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:04):
So yeah, let's let's support people like our friend Brooke
Eden that we.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Had on I was just thinking that man, Brook's legit.
Brook is legit, And I'm in, like, I don't know
what it is about summer and living in Georgia. I'm
in a heavy country phase.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
Like Lea to so solid lesbian yep, great music. Yes,
So two alternatives right there.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
I like it. I like it. Wow, the push is real.
It is they haven The lesbians don't fuck around. They
turn on you really quick. What's weird, though, is like
I get more gay all the time.
Speaker 5 (10:39):
I know that.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
It's like I don't know, like I literally get I'm
gayer with every passing day. Well, tell me about this
great guest guess that you've secured for us. Yes, we
have two guests, two for the price of one.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
We're joined by Chelsea and Katie and they are here
to share their story about how grief brought them together.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
I love this and I know this much, so I'm
so excited. Melissa gave me the high points and I'm
like very intrigued by this, this whole.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Name, this long summary. And she was like, yeah, I
guess I'm not very short winded here. That's okay, but
I convinced it for Ali and gave her the gist.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
But on here you can be long winded, so long winded.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
And the truth is, sometimes it's better when someone doesn't know,
because then I can ask my really crazy questions that
go places that are gonna make everyone uncomfortable.
Speaker 4 (11:39):
Okay, I still wanted to jump in when you're working
about Fletcher, because oh do she I just got TikTok
when I realized I was a lesbian at thirty three,
and I kind of only got on it because I
kept hearing about lesbian TikTok, so I wanted to check
that out. And so Fletcher was constantly on there and
I was like, Wow, she's like so comfortable and just
(12:01):
out there and like yeah that and me as like
still closeted, like I don't know how to come out.
Speaker 5 (12:06):
And do this. I was like, Wow, she's amazing. She's
this amazing lesbian idol.
Speaker 4 (12:11):
And then so now and I saw her last year
in concert and the best part was being surrounded by
lesbians because I've never sad and it was all like
every all of her fan dates, they were all lesbians there,
and would is amazing to be surrounded by lesbians. So
now I'm very sad that she's a man. It seems
to be like she's a racing all of it, like
on the Instagram post, like you said, so people are like,
(12:31):
she can date whoever she wants, but we're sad about
how she went about it.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
But Chelsea, is she how deep into this man is
she not literally, like what how many months in are we? Like,
is this like a fun couple of weekends or is
this like they.
Speaker 5 (12:47):
Said, two years?
Speaker 3 (12:48):
I heard two years.
Speaker 5 (12:50):
I heard I heard rumors a while ago that she
was dating a man, and I was.
Speaker 4 (12:53):
Like, noah, I heard the same, like she's always been women.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
As you know, Yeah, oh, two years.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
That's what the rumor is, that it's been two years.
And yeah, I started to hear this in the fall,
and I kind of wrote it off as just being
like everybody on the internet talks ye, so.
Speaker 4 (13:17):
T our night last night when you were talking about
PG movies, our night was not PG. Speaking of someone
who's openly by and proud of it, Halsey, we saw
her last night.
Speaker 5 (13:27):
It was amazing.
Speaker 4 (13:30):
Children there and I did not expect, like I knew
she was openly by.
Speaker 5 (13:34):
But her show is staffic, oh really staffic.
Speaker 4 (13:38):
Her and her dancers, Like I wish I had a
video of Katie's reaction because she her jaw was just
like like dropped the whole time because she heard her
dancers were doing some major So it made me think Fletcher.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
Who like, it's almost like burlesque. It sounds like Katie.
It sounds like you're like me, like, I'm like shocked
all the time. I think I'm just like I'm hard,
I'm a prude. And then it's like when people do stuff,
I'm like, whoa.
Speaker 6 (14:04):
Yeah, yeah, there were like some little kids behind us,
and on the way home, I told her to go.
That was a lot for little kids, I think, because
that was a lot for.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Me to watch exactly, like those eyes wide and just
that's amazing. I'm getting better, but I'm still pretty shocked
all the time and stuff.
Speaker 5 (14:24):
Yeah yeah, oh man, I'm still on a high from her.
Speaker 4 (14:28):
But yeah, so to get to start from the beginning
of our story, situation that all happens.
Speaker 5 (14:35):
So I lost my only sibling. Oh, I'm going to
try to try.
Speaker 4 (14:40):
I lost my only sibling, my big brother, in September
of twenty twenty three, so it's still pretty recent. And
then I got obviously darkest time of my life, terrible, broken,
just raw, awful and yeah.
Speaker 5 (14:55):
Very suddenly unexpected. He was thirty five. I'm thirty five,
just turned thirty five, So I'm like, this is wrong.
I shouldn't.
Speaker 4 (15:02):
He's my two year old, you know, it's two years
older than me, so he should be my older brother.
But now I've caught up to him, which is weird,
but so Katie though two months after but or two
months after he reached out to me though, oh yeah
because earlier.
Speaker 6 (15:18):
Well okay, So I lost my twin sister two months
prior to Chelsea's visiting her brother, and like Chelsea, Chelsea
and my sister were like acquaintances, kind of like on
their way to being in friends. They lived in the
same area, had kids at the same daycare, and then
myself I would meet Chelsea's brother like downtown at the bars,
(15:42):
like hanging out, and so we had both like met
each other's siblings and kind of like you know, across pass.
Speaker 5 (15:47):
Quite a few times. So when I found out about
her brother, I we didn't know, we didn't know each other.
Speaker 4 (15:53):
Yeah, we had never we had never met, just knew
each other's siblings as acquaintances.
Speaker 3 (15:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (15:57):
So I reached out to Chelsea just saying, like I
literally just lost my best friend. Like, if you need
somebody to talk to, please reach out, Like it might
be nice to have someone that like understands completely what
you're going through, because everybody's grief is different, right, I
can't I don't understand my mom's grief. I didn't lose
a child, so I just thought that this was like
(16:17):
the closest that I could get to somebody who fully understood.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
Yeah, and so we kind.
Speaker 5 (16:24):
Of build our own little grief support group because.
Speaker 4 (16:27):
Like, I know, you guys met in group, but I'm
like I can't imagine going which was a different situation,
but I'm like, I don't want to go cry about
my brother in front of our room full of strangers
that I don't know.
Speaker 5 (16:34):
But like Katie and.
Speaker 4 (16:35):
I just connected instantly and message back and forth like
when we'd be sad or sad memes the songs, but
they were grief songs to start with.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
I know, l So the minute that starts, I know
you're into me.
Speaker 4 (16:50):
So that's how, Yeah, we were just we just connected
and I couldn't even go out in public for a
while right after, Like I didn't want to go to
the grocery store a restaurant, and she was like we
should meet, and I'm like, I I can't go in public.
Speaker 5 (17:01):
I was just still in such a dark place. And
so we finally was it two months after we started messaging.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Was you're married, Like you're living your lives, You're married
with kids. Busy.
Speaker 4 (17:13):
Yeah, Katie was married no kids. I was married with
one son.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
Okay, so kind of busy because your life is light yeah.
Speaker 5 (17:21):
Continuous, ye, just like it's just for right, Yeah, completely
broke us. So yeah, so I was out.
Speaker 6 (17:32):
I used to watch my niece every Tuesday while my
brother in law golfed, and she don't want to go
on public so I'm like, hey, whant to come over
here after I put my niece down and we can
hang out till he gets back from golf.
Speaker 5 (17:43):
So that's what we did, and we just, like I.
Speaker 6 (17:47):
Don't the conversation just flows so easy and like it
wasn't awkward. It wasn't like small talk. It was just
like we don't almost like immediately just like got deep.
Speaker 4 (17:56):
Yeah you know, I don't know, like instantly comfortable with
each other. And we talked, but then we started talking
about so many other things too. That first meeting.
Speaker 5 (18:04):
We were there like.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
All night, and it was just like an immediate chemistry comfort.
That's but you're still greed that you're talking about the
loss of your siblings. It's not romantic at all at
this time.
Speaker 4 (18:20):
No, no, no, And I had no idea that I
even was attracted to women at all, Like no idea.
Now I'm now I've discovered all these little easter eggs,
but were lesbian.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
TikTok at this point. No, okay, we're going to.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Be like wait a minute.
Speaker 4 (18:37):
Yeah, I've always had like really intense, deep friendships with women.
Speaker 5 (18:42):
So like I always kind of because you have Unlissa,
you always.
Speaker 4 (18:45):
Talk about how you avoided women, and I'm the opposite,
Like I surrounded myself with women, and I'm like, I
have always loved women and just not I didn't realize
how much. But I've always had like really deep, intense
emotional connections and like deep friendships. But I kind of
thought that's how everyone's friendships were. I didn't think anything
of it. I always though I was going to marry
the man, have babies. I always wanted to be a mom,
(19:07):
you know, go to college, do the whole thing you're
supposed to do. So that's what I did. It never
crossed my mind to that I could be attracted to
a woman like romantically. Just always wanted to be friends
with you know, made friends with women easily, but had
no idea.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
And you were the same, Katie, like you weren't you
both were just showing up there to support each other.
Speaker 5 (19:27):
And Katie was married.
Speaker 4 (19:28):
To a woman, so she knew she okay, yeah eighteen nineteen,
I think, yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Okay, so then that happened. You have this like healing conversation,
and then how does that eventually start to more so?
Speaker 5 (19:43):
So the second time we hung out, we went to
a winery on a san day. They were open noon
to five. We opened and then let me ask you.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Something, Katie, because you're married, you were married to a woman.
Was she starting to be like what the hell is happening?
Or no?
Speaker 5 (20:01):
Yeah? So I think eventually.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
She was.
Speaker 5 (20:05):
I don't have like, I don't know.
Speaker 6 (20:07):
Like a close knit group of friends, and so I
was really excited to like find somebody that like lost
the sibling, yeah lost then, and also had like the
same views and like the same I don't know. There
were just so many things that we just clicked on,
and so I was just really excited to like have
a friend. And my ex knew that, like I would
get excited when I meet new people, so it wasn't
(20:29):
really anything different.
Speaker 5 (20:31):
It was so innocent, like literally grief support and you're married.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
A man, so you're really safe.
Speaker 4 (20:37):
Yeah, yeah, I was in therapy after lousing my brother,
and I remember saying, like, I just it's just I
just want to be around her all of the time,
Like I want to spend all my time with her.
All of a sudden, I can't stop thinking about her.
But we, you know, we talked it up to just
being comfortable with each other and we had this deep
bond of sharing grief of our only siblings.
Speaker 5 (20:54):
And yeah, at the winery though, she made a comment.
Speaker 7 (20:58):
Oh by, we were we were talking about sexualities of people,
and she goes, well, I don't know, I think everybody's
a little by And I'm like, is that?
Speaker 4 (21:10):
Yeah, I didn't know, And I didn't think anything of
it either, that I really do always think women and
I did like the thing in middle.
Speaker 5 (21:16):
School where you kiss girls because the boys encourage it.
But I didn't, like, I think anything of it.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
That is true, like I think that every woman's there's
no one who's completely off limits.
Speaker 4 (21:27):
Yeah, I agree, So I was just making an innocent
well I think everyone's little vine. And then later Katie
was like, I was fun turking when you mean that comment,
But she didn't.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
She didn't dial in do it because probably you're just
like that's far fetched.
Speaker 4 (21:40):
Yeah, sure, but then we were going we were going
like out to the bar sometimes and then like long walks, long.
Speaker 5 (21:48):
Walks in the woods. But I would get.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
At the bar, guys getting me said in the woods.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
Just like a lesbian wood.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Katie, whose idea was the woods, I have to know,
it's actually not surprising. The straight woman is so aggressive
because they want it so fucking bad that there in
the woods. That actually that that actually tracks that I
don't even need to know her. That's fully tracked in the.
Speaker 5 (22:26):
World, just getting dark out right, don't get lost.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
Who's the predatory lesbian?
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Now, it's always the straight woman. Every time.
Speaker 4 (22:38):
We would have like these really long hubs that I
also didn't saying my girlfriends and I are like my
friends that are girls and I are very like close,
like I don't know.
Speaker 5 (22:50):
Like taking towers together isn't weird?
Speaker 4 (22:52):
And the more I was telling Katie about my friends
weird a minute.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
She just tried to drop the bomb.
Speaker 8 (22:58):
Then keep going, I've taken exactly zero showers with my friends,
zero showers, zero row zero.
Speaker 5 (23:13):
Let's stop.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
At age four, Chelsea is fucking gay as hell. Oh
my god, I've learned.
Speaker 5 (23:18):
I've learned that.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Okay, so Chelsea's got you deep in the woods and
she happened to bring camping gear. Okay, so now you're
in the woods potentially, it's getting dark, it's getting dark
and lost.
Speaker 4 (23:40):
We were having one of the long hugs and then
like I don't know, I had a weird okay, so
back even before before this though, she was dropping me
off at my vehicle once and I had this urge
to kiss her, and it was like I thought I
was losing my damn mind.
Speaker 5 (23:57):
Like I've never like, I guess I have friends that
were super close.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
I'm sure you guys kiss you kissing the shower.
Speaker 5 (24:06):
I've never been like I've never been. I always just.
Speaker 4 (24:09):
Thought everyone could appreciate. I thought everyone thought women's bodies were.
Speaker 5 (24:12):
More attractive than men. I thought that was just that.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
I remember having that same thought too.
Speaker 4 (24:16):
It was like, of, of course, obviously women are more attractive,
so I thought, will the beast like yeah, So I
really didn't think anything of it, but I was like,
why do I have this urge to kiss her? That's
so weird, And like I'm grieving at this point, like deep, deep,
deep and having grief. All of a sudden want to
kiss this woman. I want to spend all my time
(24:38):
with her. I can't stop thinking about her. I had
no idea what was going on.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
And are you also texting throughout the week like you're communication?
Oh boy, okay, yeah, this is textbook Okay. So then
so then you obviously don't kiss her because you're thinking
I'm married and I've got all these other things.
Speaker 4 (24:58):
Yes, okay, yeah, And and the thing was like we knew
we weren't going to stop hanging out, like we also
had the you know, the support of like having someone
who understood, and even though I do have really supportive friends,
it was obviously different having someone who knew what I
was going through of losing a sibling and watching your
parents go through that and the awfulness of that. So
(25:19):
I thought I just wanted to be around her all.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
And then, Katie, were you feeling were you starting to
pick up the vibe of like this woman is smalling,
like she's starting to be into me?
Speaker 5 (25:29):
No? Absolutely not. Still no married woman.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
You know you're good? Yeah, okay, I didn't know she
wanted more. Okay I didn't.
Speaker 5 (25:39):
I didn't either at the time.
Speaker 3 (25:40):
Maydie, we're one and the same. I wouldn't have realized either.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
I would have been like that what am I doing
until it was said out.
Speaker 6 (25:45):
Loud, there's no there's no yeah, there's no option for friends.
Speaker 4 (25:51):
They were like, oh, like we're not going to stop
hanging out and seeing each other and how are we
supposed to not?
Speaker 5 (25:57):
Well, once you realize that you are in fact attracted
to women, is like.
Speaker 4 (26:02):
So are you by And I'm like, I don't, I
don't know, Like no, I don't think, I don't know,
ye want to kiss you? So I did that thing
where I'm like, maybe it's just this person and I'm
not you know, I'm like, maybe I'm not lessy, Maybe
it's just this person who's bringing this out in me. Well,
then I also thought like everyone's gonna be like Chelsea's grieving,
she's lost her she lost her brother, and now she's
gay all of a sudden, you know, yeah, like.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
A like a trauma bond of sorts where you're like, yeah,
And then was your marriage good? Get rate your marriage
zero to ten?
Speaker 4 (26:31):
Well, I mean like everything seemed I thought like I
thought I was happy and really yeah, and then grief
kind of makes you like address things you didn't even
realize we're under the surface too, and like we kind
of did live. We had different priorities of things we
wanted to do. Like he's very like hunting fishing. If
I wanted if I went on a trip somewhere, I
(26:51):
would go with like my seven girlfriends like we would
we would go on trips together, Like I would go
do things with them and he would go hunt the fish.
And we kind of I realized like we didn't really
make plans together much, but we'd been we were both
kind of in the same place as in our marriages
because we've been together for fifteen ish years or I
was twelve years. Yeah, so we were both feeling like
(27:12):
we were in a.
Speaker 5 (27:12):
Roommate like a roommate phase kind of. Yeah, for sure,
the I don't know, there was romantic aspect was gone.
The intimacy, Yeah, we talked about that and like it
was just gone. It had been gone for a long time.
Speaker 6 (27:26):
But we were just like, oh, this is you know,
kind of settled, like I can deal with this for
the rest of my life, you know. And then it
was kind of like there was this spark back and
I'm like, oh, like this is.
Speaker 5 (27:39):
Why don't feel this way?
Speaker 3 (27:41):
Then?
Speaker 4 (27:42):
Are top to suppress their emotions, which is a shame
for everybody in the world, I think. But it's sad
because I, like I didn't realize I was getting my
emotional needs met from other people.
Speaker 5 (27:53):
And then so then when.
Speaker 4 (27:55):
I realized, I'm like, oh, this is emotional needs and
physical and all the things that I realized was an
option really And yeah, we were both just like comfortable.
Probably if it wasn't for grief, we wouldn't have, like
realized my therapist is, but like you probably wouldn't have
realized all these things if it wasn't for the perfect storm.
Speaker 5 (28:13):
Of grief, like I had the double double catalyst situation.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
Yeah, I never thought of it like that. That's so true.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
But one thing that I've noticed is like a very
common theme and a lot of people who come out
later is losing someone and kind of like that realization
of your own mortality, Like life is fucking short. You
never know when it's going to be over. Was that
something that you guys were both kind of thinking about, Like, oh,
I think that.
Speaker 5 (28:46):
Unfortunately we hurt people on the process. I could not
we did not do this right. But with the grief
and every like just being so deep down.
Speaker 4 (28:57):
My mind at the time was literally like I could
die tomorrow, so why does it matter what I do?
Speaker 5 (29:02):
Exactly like this, that was very just. It doesn't like
life is short, it doesn't matter, nothing permanent like, so
I kind.
Speaker 4 (29:08):
Of didn't wasn't thinking about the consequences of my actions
and that this would start a whole domino effect. I
was literally just doing something that felt good and fight
like in such a dark place and this felt good
that I have parts.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
You can get.
Speaker 5 (29:20):
Yeah, so we're just chasing that good feeling constantly.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
How long did the from the beginning of when you
just you were like relating to each other, how long
did that growth phase of like these feelings are developing
and developing until it was like okay, wow, this is
a thing. And then from then how long till you
were I guess together.
Speaker 6 (29:44):
Yeah, I would say that we, I don't know, started
realizing we had deeper feelings than just friends, like a
few months later, and then we just it got messy,
like really messy.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
I feel like there's no way for it not no, yeah.
Speaker 5 (30:00):
Yeah, you know. Chelsea didn't want to blow up her
family and.
Speaker 6 (30:04):
All these things. She was kind of back and forth
trying to decide what was best for her. So and
that probably took a year actually, and not trusting myself
to make a decision when they say when you're grieving,
don't make any sudden life changes or decisions.
Speaker 5 (30:17):
So I'm like, I'm I don't.
Speaker 4 (30:18):
Trust myself to make a decision, or like I was
still figuring out grieving, figuring out my sexuality, like oh,
this is starting to make sense.
Speaker 5 (30:26):
What's funny is my brother. When we were younger, I
think my brother totally.
Speaker 4 (30:29):
Knew and he would be like, you're a lesbian, and
he would call my friends and I he.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Got up there and he was like first order of business,
I know.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Exactly.
Speaker 4 (30:39):
I even like in high school even he would like
call my friends and I out and be like, you
guys are lesbians.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
You guys are showering together. You were, in fact lesbians.
Speaker 4 (30:50):
But now I'm like, so, women were like throwing themselves
at my brother constantly, and so we would be at
the gym together and people would be like are you together,
Like they would think we're a couple because it's just
a guy and a girl together, and I'd have to
be like no, like and so, and I think he
was would kept like I didn't even pick up on that.
I was like, I was checking women out, but I'd
be like, oh, Nick, like you know yeah like nice yeah,
(31:12):
like but now I'm like, oh, I've been doing that
this whole time, just appreciating women's bodies. And actually, a
year before losing my brother, I was at a bombfire
with my friend who had recently realized she's by and
kind of came out to friends that publicly. Really, but
she she's like, we had been drinking around the bonfire.
So I I don't even remember when I started watching
(31:34):
lesbian porn.
Speaker 5 (31:35):
But I was like, probably in my twenties at some point.
But I told her.
Speaker 4 (31:38):
I was like, well, yeah when I when I do
watch it, it's it's lesbians.
Speaker 5 (31:42):
And she's like I knew it, Like what are you talking?
What are you talking about? And I was in such
I had not I'm like, just because I watch like,
that's I.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
Don't like, it's not just because you. I think it's
like that's one more Yeah yeah.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
That would rather watch lesbian born anyway, but.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
If you add up, then yeah, okay, this is starting
to look very gay.
Speaker 5 (32:10):
Well and she realized too, like I was kind of
I would get jealous of her. So we had like
one of those.
Speaker 4 (32:13):
Friendships where neither of us realized we were into women,
but we had like a very intense friendship. I would
get kind of jealous, not realizing it if she got
like like no one.
Speaker 5 (32:22):
Was ever good enough for her, and like, ah, this
guy sucks. And then but it was obviously one of.
Speaker 4 (32:26):
Those intents where you're like almost pseudo dating but didn't even.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Like no idea like an emotional relationship. Yeah, So then
who said it first? And how well?
Speaker 4 (32:37):
We were on one of our walks in the woods
were we were hugging and then she kind of like
lingered like we we separated, but she kind of lingered
like she had her hands still on my shoulders and
we were just really close and like it kind of
which I just realized I also have ADHD id just
(32:59):
got diagnosed late, but I kind of it so it
kind of slipped out. I didn't really even mean to
say it, but it slipped out like I.
Speaker 5 (33:04):
Really want to. I think I said I really want
to kiss you or something. It made me really want
to kiss you.
Speaker 6 (33:08):
Want to, So we were like face to face and
I'm like, no, like this can't happen even if it
hurts people.
Speaker 5 (33:18):
And she's like, yeah, no, we didn't kiss that. No
we didn't. We didn't kiss them, but we did hold
hands up the whole way back.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Katie, did you know that was coming?
Speaker 5 (33:27):
No?
Speaker 1 (33:28):
I didn't.
Speaker 5 (33:29):
Then you still didn't. I still did it.
Speaker 6 (33:32):
I had no idea that she felt that way, And
as soon as she said it, my heart started pounding
and I was like, oh, oh, maybe this is why
it feels deeper than just a friendship. Like then I
started realizing that I probably had more feelings for her too.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
Yeah right, oh my god. Yeah, okay, so then then
what do you do with that?
Speaker 4 (33:53):
It was confusing as hell, very confusing, and I was
I was back and forth with like, you know, I can't,
and I again didn't really realize where it was all
going to lead to, or that it would blow everything up,
which obviously, when you you're married and then you're wanting
to spend all your time with someone else not a
good sign. But I really was just I mean, my
(34:16):
brain wasn't even working right anyway, with grieving and everything.
Speaker 5 (34:19):
I was just like, this feels good.
Speaker 4 (34:20):
I'm gonna keep doing this, living day to day, like
you know, Yeah, there.
Speaker 5 (34:24):
Was a lot to process. I am.
Speaker 6 (34:26):
I was having like issues in my marriage before then,
like trying to work through it with my therapist, and
then that happened, and I'm like, oh my god.
Speaker 5 (34:34):
Like I don't know what to do.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
Yeah, because you're.
Speaker 4 (34:36):
A wife, had the same therapists, like, oh, then we split,
Like I say that, but but how do.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
You cause you're you know, it's one thing to be
in a straight marriage and then realizing you're gay, so
that it's like you have this like reason. But then
I think it's almost like harder in some ways for
Katie because it's like she's you're with a woman, then
you're there's no other reason to leave except for you
met this compelling person, right, and then how do you
(35:08):
even go about Like I don't even know how you
impact that with her?
Speaker 5 (35:12):
Which she was a lot quicker than me. Okay, maybe
because I had started processing it sooner. I think marriage
was over.
Speaker 6 (35:19):
Like making me happy anymore. Yeah, I mean it was
like probably a year before that. My sister and I
were kind of talking about it and I was crying
to her and I'm like, what do you mean like divorce?
Speaker 5 (35:29):
I don't want to get divorced. And then through working
through therapy and stuff like that.
Speaker 6 (35:34):
I just, you know, we just lost it. Well I
lost it, she didn't, which was even worse.
Speaker 5 (35:41):
But yeah, we're not attracted to your house anymore.
Speaker 4 (35:45):
Like we really were both in that place of like
we lost that spark and obviously having a son, I
didn't want to.
Speaker 5 (35:51):
I was like, I can't.
Speaker 4 (35:52):
I'd never imagine like a divorce in my life ever thought.
I thought that was going to be my life forever,
and then everything got flipped upside down.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
Obviously, yeah I can't now, Like you both are like
admittedly saying, you know, this wasn't the right path to take.
What would you have done differently, Like if there's someone
listening to this that's like in a similar situation, Like
what advice do you have for like your past selves.
Speaker 4 (36:18):
So I started listening to your podcast and binge the
entire thing. And that was when I was like, oh,
I'm not crazy, I'm just gay, Like I'm not living
my mind. This is the thing that happens, and it
because it really wasn't talking about. So I'm glad there's
a lot more resources now and for everyone that came
on your podcast, So thankful for because I'm sharing their
stories has been so like I've resonated with pieces of
(36:40):
all of it. But I wish, well, so when you
you so that you talked to your husbands about it,
I'm like, oh, that would have you know that that would.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
Have been a step.
Speaker 5 (36:50):
Yeah, so, and I wish I had been able to
communicate that to him.
Speaker 4 (36:55):
But I had no idea where to even start, because
I had no idea what was even going on with me,
Like I really I was just losing my.
Speaker 5 (37:01):
Mind and like this was just I had no idea
of what it was.
Speaker 4 (37:04):
Going to become or how to sort out my feelings.
So I didn't even know how to bring it up
or approach it with him. And I wish I had
been able to figure that out, Like I wish I
had had that conversation with.
Speaker 5 (37:14):
Him, like I'm feeling this way, But again I don't
think I wanted to.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
I don't think I was ready to start that dominoes.
Speaker 4 (37:21):
Yeah, the dominoes of like once you open that can
of worms, Like I didn't even tell Like one of
my my friends figured it out because she she's the
one that had figured out she was by and she
was like looking at like she'd see when I'd get
a text from Katie. I'd be like smiling and we
were texting and like, you know, she my Friend's like, hey,
she's married, and I'm like, well, I still was in denial.
I was like, what are you Like, I didn't see
(37:43):
it coming. I still like, what are you talking about?
Like we're just friends.
Speaker 5 (37:46):
I think. I think from like my standpoint, the advice
I was would give is to like, I don't know,
just stay back a little bit and let her figure
her shit out. Yeah, because I was. I always told her,
you know, like you have to make the best decision
for what you need in your life, don't I don't
really worry about my feelings.
Speaker 6 (38:06):
Like, yeah, I'll be hurt, but you got to live
your life. So I just think that it was extremely hard,
like falling so hard for Chelsea and then for her
to not be like one hundred percent yet.
Speaker 9 (38:18):
Yeah, yeah that was hard, and then just to like
sit back and like watch her try with her family
and her husband, and I'm like, Okay, then I'm gone,
like I need to start from square one.
Speaker 6 (38:32):
Like I got on dating apps and we tried multiple
times to create distance, but we just kept getting drawn
back to each other. But for somebody who is in
my position, I would just say, like be patient.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
She was.
Speaker 4 (38:44):
She wasn't really supportive, Like I know, catalysts get a
lot of negative heat, but Katie was really supportive.
Speaker 5 (38:51):
And it's not about me. It's not about me at all,
you know.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
I think I like what you said though about let her.
If you can be just a friend who's not like
having ten opinions about how her coming out and leaving
the marriage, if you can just if you can do that,
most people can't do that, Katie. But if you can
do that, that to me is like the most loving
thing you can do, because otherwise you're right, like it's
(39:17):
she to leave a marriage prematurely, you end up with
all this what if or like regret around it.
Speaker 5 (39:24):
It's like, oh, exactly, yeah, that's what's that gonna do
for your relationship?
Speaker 1 (39:29):
The line, Yeah, you're gonna end up divorced towards right.
So it's just that's such good advice, like I and
like you said, I mean, staying patient, But also like
this would be so hard for me to like keep
my mouth shut, don't have an opinion about the husband,
don't have an opinion about that. You guys just went
on a vacation together with the kids. Like it's yeah,
(39:50):
that's hard as fuck.
Speaker 7 (39:52):
No, I did.
Speaker 4 (39:52):
We did try to take a step back because I
was like, I need to, like my head, you know.
Speaker 5 (39:56):
I'm like, I just need to like I need to silence.
Speaker 4 (39:58):
The noise and like figure out what I should do
because this is gonna affect my son's life, everyone's life,
and I always hurt literally hurting everybody in the process.
Speaker 5 (40:07):
So I'm like, I really need to figure out and
make a decision.
Speaker 4 (40:10):
Like I'm you know, everyone's just like left hanging. So
I needed to figure out my own stuff. So then
we tried to.
Speaker 5 (40:17):
Not talk, which was really really hard because we had,
you know, each other's locations, so we were on the
boat having a family both day.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
Yeah, you with your family.
Speaker 5 (40:34):
Handle that, Like I just I couldn't say anything because
it's not wrong of her to do that, you know,
I'm just jealous.
Speaker 3 (40:41):
Yeah, I think that's an excellent point.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Though it is hard to like take a back seat
in that during that time, but it's also like so
necessary and it's gonna like if you really want to
be with this person in the future, like that's the
best approach. So like you know in your heart, like
what the true feelings that are happening like, And it
does take time, like Chelsea's saying, like it takes time
(41:03):
to like make that decision and unravel and have those
hard conversations with your your husband too, like he needs
to understand.
Speaker 4 (41:10):
That being honest and for trying to work it out.
Even though I mean, yeah, there was some I wish
I could go back and do it completely differently and
have those open, honest conversations for sure, Like should have
gone to therapy together probably years before.
Speaker 5 (41:26):
Well I should have done that with my ex wife too.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
She Yeah, it's like, you know you would end up
in the same space, but you think that you would
have like cushioned the blow.
Speaker 5 (41:37):
Right, Oh yeah, for sure. I think it's like, really,
we're trying to navigate on charted territory.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
It's excited, excited about excited about each other. So it's like,
also you're fighting this reckless desire to be together. Mm hmmm, du.
Speaker 5 (41:53):
Thing that feel good?
Speaker 4 (41:55):
When we were like nothing was you know, like I said,
I wasn't even leave in the house, like nothing was
making me feel good.
Speaker 5 (42:00):
I was just in a dark place. And then I
met her and we just that was the feeling good.
Speaker 4 (42:07):
Yeah, it was like a drug for sure, And it
was so like all of it was so out of
character for me too. So my friends were like, once
people did start figuring it out, They're like, what the
hell are you doing? You know, this is just so
unlike you. And then if we live in a small town,
so it was starting to get around. My friend's realtor
was like, what's going on with all the bartender stone town?
Like everybody was talking about it, and you don't forget.
(42:27):
I'm like, I was just gonna think I lost my mind,
or that Katie like.
Speaker 5 (42:35):
She did. She didn't make me gay. She helped me.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
Realize and I like that everybody knows Katie wasn't the
one dragging you into the woods or making with her friends.
This is so clear to me. He was the aggressor here.
I don't need.
Speaker 4 (42:54):
I also went to I went to Catholic school when
I was younger, and like, so it just wasn't I
don't know, it just.
Speaker 5 (43:01):
Wasn't an option mesic. It was just man and woman.
Speaker 4 (43:04):
And you get married, like I got in trouble for time.
My sweatshirtter around my waist in elementary school, like I
had a nun for a teacher, so.
Speaker 5 (43:11):
I was just yeah, you just do the right thing,
and you know, you get good grades. And like I
never I was like the good kid.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
I relate to that so hard. They're just it was
never even on the radar of being an option, and.
Speaker 5 (43:24):
Then you're worried about letting everyone else down. Yeah, that's
what it was at my school too.
Speaker 6 (43:29):
It was rough to I don't know, everyone was pretty
conservative again small town.
Speaker 5 (43:34):
Then I moved up to go to college here and
just let loose.
Speaker 6 (43:39):
There was a bar that hosted gay night every Tuesday night,
Like I think I'm gonna go check it out. Well,
I fell in love with it, and then I and
my friends I'm like, let's go to gay night. And
they're like why, and I'm like, no, guy's gonna dance
on you, try and take you home, like we just
have fun and dance.
Speaker 5 (43:55):
When the guys aren't, you know, crowding you.
Speaker 4 (43:57):
I U to get so annoyed too, and guys would
come talk to my friends and I like, oh.
Speaker 5 (44:00):
Like leave us alone. We're having a girl. Makes sense.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
With the guys, It's like all they want a sister.
Speaker 6 (44:14):
My sister goes yeah, I know you try to go
to every single game height.
Speaker 5 (44:19):
Yeah, like you're always trying to go to gay night obviously.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
How long have you all been now? Are you married?
Speaker 5 (44:25):
No? No, we moved in together. Yeah so about six nice.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (44:33):
Yeah, so we did the thing where you move right
in and you don't waste any time.
Speaker 5 (44:37):
Of course, we've known each other.
Speaker 3 (44:39):
I was gonna say the long road before.
Speaker 4 (44:42):
So yeah, it's nice to finally like work. We just
want to move forward and try to yourselves.
Speaker 5 (44:49):
Yeah, ourselves.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
I love it. Well, I think that is an amazing
place to wrap. I love that.
Speaker 3 (44:55):
Thank you guys so much. I'm sorry it took so
long for us to get you on, but yeah, it's
great we finally made it happen.
Speaker 5 (45:01):
So joking too because Katie.
Speaker 4 (45:04):
I think Katie was messaging Allie and she's talking about
catalysts and how it's all negative stuff, and then she's like,
I want to be a positive catalyst and she's like,
do you want to be on I'm like, I've been
messaging with them for like a year or now, it's.
Speaker 5 (45:15):
Never been asked to be on the podcast.
Speaker 1 (45:17):
I think, well, probably the Catalyst episode is one that
needs to happen because to me, it's like my growth
around that position in this process has drastically changed. I'm
almost like a team catalyst more than I'm team into
the woods Woman straight woman, because I think, like I feel,
(45:38):
I have such empathy for these people now, like looking back,
it's like, oh my god, I when you're in the
throes of coming out, like Chelsea myself, Melissa work, you're
so it's not selfish. It's like you've got a family,
you've got a child, you've got I had to do
these certain things, and it's like her needs that was
(45:59):
like tenth the list of things that I had to
deal with, even though I wanted her.
Speaker 5 (46:04):
And it's just.
Speaker 6 (46:07):
Honestly, I think, like tell you, it sent me all
these episodes of years to listen to and that really
helped me like understand like where she's at.
Speaker 5 (46:15):
Yeah, but then some of these catalysts ones, I'm like
a crazy catalyst. All these people are so shy, I.
Speaker 1 (46:25):
Know, I mean, who knows like where she's at, like
and who knows in the real world. Like had we
met our catalysts different in a different way later on,
maybe it would have been different. I don't know. I
put her through fucking hell.
Speaker 3 (46:44):
I don't know. I'm not changing course on mine.
Speaker 5 (46:49):
It sounds like it was.
Speaker 1 (46:52):
You they did. Everybody's at fault.
Speaker 3 (46:56):
It's a tough space for sure.
Speaker 5 (46:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:58):
Well, thank you guys, so thank so so much, thank you,
thank you excellent. We'll enjoy the rest of your day.
Speaker 7 (47:05):
You do things.
Speaker 5 (47:06):
Bye bye bye.
Speaker 3 (47:11):
I want to support the Lesbian Chronicles podcast.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
Rate us and write a review on Apple podcast or Spotify.
Speaker 1 (47:17):
We'd love listener feedback. If you'd like to share your story,
email us at Melissa and Ali at gmail dot com.
That's Melissa M. E. L I. S A and Ali
A L. L I at gmail dot com. Or follow
us on Instagram at Lesbian Chronicles
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