June 22, 2025 • 35 mins
Our friend Heather joins the show to share how she keeps that "baby bird" energy despite experiencing heartbreak in the past. We also talk about that imposter syndrome feeling as late in life lesbians.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/lesbian-chronicles-coming-out-later-in-life--5601514/support.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/lesbian-chronicles-coming-out-later-in-life--5601514/support.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
I'm Ali. I came out after twenty years of marriage
and I have three kids.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'm Melissa and I have two kids, and I came
out at thirty seven after an eleven year marriage.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
This podcast is about coming out later and the struggles
and victories that come with it.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
When coming out feels like the end of the world,
but it's really just the beginning.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
This is the Lesbian Chronicles. How welcome to the Lesbian Chronicles.
Speaker 4 (00:37):
Welcome, Welcome, How.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Are you my friend? You're my world traveler.
Speaker 4 (00:40):
I know, I.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Feel like I have been everywhere. I went to Ohio
to shoot a very small role in a movie, the
Beautiful Lesbian movie that will be out around the holidays,
and then I flew from there to New York City
to meet up with my girlfriend and we had a
nice little trip to New York.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Your video was amazing. Yeah, who filmed it? Like, all
the whole time, I'm thinking, who does she have filming
this thing?
Speaker 5 (01:06):
Me?
Speaker 1 (01:07):
I don't get were you at LaGuardia?
Speaker 4 (01:09):
It's pack was at LaGuardia.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
So the thing is, I flew Delta and she flew Southwest,
and I also got there like about an.
Speaker 4 (01:18):
Hour earlier, and so.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
I'm like I land there and I'm kind of taking
my time, and then I realized, like, wait a second,
I've got to get a bag from baggage.
Speaker 4 (01:28):
Clam or they're going to take it. And sure shit,
they did, and so I had to go wait in line.
But then I realized that, like.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
LaGuardia is not set up like Atlanta, where you just
like you know, take a little plane train.
Speaker 4 (01:38):
You have to take a bus to go to the
different terminals.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
I've done LaGuardia a hundred times. I've never gotten on
a bus.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Because she flew in with Southwest. I'm with Delta, So
Southwest is a different terminal.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Okay, So okay, because you were meeting up, you had
to get on a bus.
Speaker 5 (01:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
So I get on the bus go to the other terminal,
and I know that her baggage is at like five,
and so I'm standing there and I see her and
I'm like, oh shit, like I need to like set
up my camera and get a shot of this. And
so I'm like literally like hiding behind my bag, like
trying to set up my camera. And then I finally
get it set up and I come out and I'm
like looking around and I can't find her anywhere, and
(02:16):
I'm like, how did this person just disappear? Yeah, and
then I was I turned around, I saw this better shot,
said like iHeart in my seat, and I'm like that
would be a much better shot.
Speaker 4 (02:27):
So I flipped my stuff around.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
And then I'm standing there and I'm like, I still
don't see her, and I feel like an idiot because
I'm standing in front of this, like you know, photo
op place alone.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
I don't even know how you got alone. It's what
I'm wondering, because it's like people, people people.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
I don't know. It was like somehow people stopped crossing
in front of me. Okay, I saw me.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Yeah, so anyway, yeah, I thought it was I'm like,
I wasn't planning on like posting that video, but then
I'm like going back and looking at it and like
watching how much the changes. So I don't know, And
especially I feel like a lot of people can relate.
There's a lot of lesbians and long distance relationships.
Speaker 4 (03:07):
I loved it, so thank you.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Yeah, my natural tendency is to make fun of you,
and I didn't feel that. I felt I'm like, look
at my friends, we should post it on our site.
Speaker 4 (03:20):
We should. Yeah, it's kind of you can put it
on there.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Yeah, so it my way. Well, we have a guest
who's a repeat guest who I'll tell you kind of
how this started. So we did the baby bird episode,
and most people related to the baby they agree it's
like you meet these women and they're so hopeful, but
on our side, it's just like we're beat down, we're
(03:47):
jaded assholes. It's like no one, no one, there's nothing
exciting out there anymore. I'm half joking, but mostly that's
how I feel most of the time. Actually, so and
even just like in dating, it's like you're almost like
so distrusting that it's like I don't even let myself
get that excited because I'm just like, what are the
(04:08):
odds I've seen now what happens? And I don't know?
So anyway, So one of our friends of the pod
who I was dming with, she's just kind of like
in our same like has dated, been hurt but came
out and still has the fucking hope of like it's
gonna be good again, or I'm going to meet this
person like she's not doesn't feel the jade that I
(04:31):
see in us, and some of our friends, and so
I was like, you have to come on the pod
to talk about it. She just really didn't want to,
but with enough pressure, uh, she she decided to come on.
So thank you, Heather.
Speaker 5 (04:44):
Thanks thanks for ye I mean, yeah, it's pretty accurate.
It's pretty accurate.
Speaker 4 (04:51):
I can sell eskimo.
Speaker 5 (04:53):
So, I mean, I wasn't like I wasn't as nervous
like the first time. It was nervous the first time.
It was also like a Monday, She's like, will you
come on tomorrow?
Speaker 1 (05:00):
That's pretty Yeah, that's pretty difficult.
Speaker 5 (05:03):
This time I had time to think about it.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
That's true. Well this was your because you have this
day off, right, like this is your day off? Okay,
oh yeah, So I loved what you said about you know,
when you're like we are, it is kind of like
you're postponing joy, like you're you're not a baby bird anymore,
and it's like you have I see these opportunities all
around me, and yet I don't just like go into
(05:26):
it with this open heart. It's like it's too late
for that, it feels like for me, So I'm curious, Like,
I guess just start with like you were married, you
realized you were gay and then came out how long ago.
Speaker 5 (05:39):
And we're complicated in that, but that was it was
like a long process. I don't I mean, there was
a lot there's a lot of nuance to that because
I don't know if there was a realizing more so
then accepting, you know, Okay, being married for twenty years
to a wonderful man who is still my best friend.
I don't know. I kind of always knew and there
(06:00):
was always kind of space within the relationship to sometimes
explore that.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Basically, you ut and you end up leaving your marriage
and dating, yeah, okay, And I know, like from our
conversations you had had a heartbreak along the way for sure,
and then but I guess go from there as far
as like so, I feel like the heartbreak along the
way was kind of like my like realization.
Speaker 5 (06:26):
You know. It was like I always knew, but there
was in my brain like never like I thought that
I was ever going to change anything, Like I was
never going to leave him, Like it was, you know,
we were great, We're still great, you know what I mean,
totally different thing. But I didn't realize it wasn't working
for him either. It was almost like I wasn't giving
him what he needed, you know what I mean, we
(06:47):
didn't know why because we worked every other way anyway.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Were you scared at that point of like oh my god, wow,
Like it's one thing for me to be thinking I'm
gay and now or I am gay and I'm leaving
and now it's also like, wait, he might be leaving me.
Speaker 5 (07:00):
Yeah, yeah, that did happen.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Yeah, okay, yeah, like I'm getting left.
Speaker 5 (07:04):
Yeah, sure, that's interesting. But then there was this one
person who super close with and he totally knew about
it and was fine to just kind of we gave
each other a lot of space to make sure that
this awesome thing we built we wanted to separate from.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
You separate and you go on to date women, Yeah,
for several years, I assume for several years, Okay, and
then I think that leads us, yeah, until now leads
us to kind of where we are now, which is
somehow you have maintained you're still a baby bird, Like
you're still and I guess Melissa define baby bird for
(07:43):
people who didn't listen to that episode.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
So baby bird to us means someone who's just so
like hopeful and happy and like out here in the
world with a full belly and no predators.
Speaker 4 (07:55):
Like Meanwhile, Ali and I feel very jaded.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
We both had our heartbroken and I think having that
heartbreak happen, it's made me very guarded and it's something
that I've had to let go of and be like,
if I don't drop this, then I have no future.
Speaker 4 (08:13):
Yeah, I'm sitting in my own way at this point.
Speaker 5 (08:16):
Think about this. Everything you just described that I went through,
that you guys both went through, Like did you do
all that? Did you come that far and do like
all that work? Being comfortable with yourself, being comfortable to
let everyone in the world know who you are? Did
you do all that for that one relationship? Was it
all for that one? And then it's like, oh, that
(08:38):
didn't work, So I'm just gonna kind of call the
you know, throw the talent.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
Yeah, And.
Speaker 5 (08:46):
You know, you could think of it as like maybe
just maybe that was there for the time it was there,
you know what I mean, And then with the good,
the bad, and the ugly, you can take take all
that is like gifts from that and you can use
that like for the next time as like now you
have those gifts, Now you have that knowledge, and that
could be kind of like your superpower into your next,
(09:08):
your next thing.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
That's the goal. But I think like, at least for me,
and I'd be curious what Melissa would say, is it's
like not that you blew up everything for this one thing.
That's definitely not And in my case, I had dated
a couple of women before I had my heart broken.
But for me, it's more around like fear of like
I don't want to do this again, so I'm just
not even going to fully put myself out there because
(09:32):
I have too many walls up now because she destroyed me.
So it's like you come to a place of like
I don't the dog bit me. I'm not going to
have that dog again, Like I'm just now protecting myself.
Speaker 5 (09:46):
I hear that. But like after that, like I had
like a super soul crushing, it's like my awakening, my transformation.
That was the first one. But after that, like I
feel like I might as well just go for it,
because if I survived that, I could survive anything, Like
what else? What do you? I don't think it could
be worse. I literally don't think it could be worse
than that one thing that I'm in my brain, the
(10:09):
first one.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Yeah, I think that's so it's.
Speaker 5 (10:11):
Like, you know what I mean, like why not just
go for it? Like, guys, we only have we're like
halfway there, We're like halfway to the grave. You might
as well keep yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
And I think one of my biggest challenges has been
like that I put so much trust in that person
that I was with, and I fully like believe that
I really knew them very well, and then to see
them kind of flip and shift away from being that
person that I really thought I knew it makes me
like question a lot of like who people really are.
(10:42):
And I had a friend recently tell me, you know,
she's kind of hardened a bit like us, and her
person was saying, you know, like I'm so in love,
like this is it for me all this stuff, and
she was like, you know, come to me in five
years and tell me that it's too soon to kind
of be declaring that, and like, I know what can happen,
(11:05):
and like I need to see like more history here
before I'm able to like make those kind of declarations.
Speaker 4 (11:13):
And I think that's really true.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
I think that's one of the things that Ali and
I have both dealt with is is kind of being
like being so sure about someone and maybe you relate
to this.
Speaker 4 (11:22):
To another being so sure and then being like oh
fuck I was wrong.
Speaker 5 (11:26):
Yeah now I haven't had that, like, so mine was
like still, I was like really pre coming out when
when all this happened for me, that this is that
was why, like that heartbreak was why I can't I
actually came out and blew the life up because I mean,
I mean this could be just me. I think I'm
just a baby bird.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Like in general, in general, it's a great thing.
Speaker 4 (11:50):
I was gonna say, I'm so appreciation for the baby birds.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Yeah, I have a mad appreciation.
Speaker 5 (11:56):
I just knew even in my darkest moment, Like I
remember thinking it like okay, well that that I never
felt that before and and it sounds terrible because like
I was married. I love him to death like for sure,
but I was like have I ever been in love?
Like it literally made me ask myself that question. And
(12:18):
then when I was in like the really like it
was like I was in a cocoon like a and
I'm a pretty happy person. I'm not a sad person.
Like I don't like it. I find ways to get
out of it. And I was like, like he even said,
I've known him for like twenty thirty years, and he
was like, I've never seen you like this. Like I
(12:40):
was just in the summer, up in my room in
the dark, leave me alone, can't listen to music, can't anything.
But I remember thinking, like I want to feel that again.
I know I wanted to feel that again. You know,
I've that way toward him for someone, so like I
just always had that, And I was like, right, I
just have to get through that. I just knew I
(13:01):
had to get through this. It's like, are you holding
on to it? Are you holding onto the sadness? It's
like that. It's like that Gotier song, like you can
be addicted to a certain kind of sadness. It's like
do we have that? Because that's all we have left
of something that was wonderful and that we we cherished,
and like that's all this is all I have now,
So I'm just going to keep this. I'm going to
(13:21):
keep this and it's gonna make me, you know, jaded
or whatever.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Right, And that's something I realized a few months ago,
was like, man, I'm like holding onto this because it's
the last piece of my story, right, Yeah, And and
like but it's also preventing me from moving forward. Right,
So there is a certain point where you do have
to be like, you know what, like they've they've taken
(13:44):
enough from me, like you know, taken my spark and
my spirit for long enough, like I can't let that continue.
Speaker 4 (13:52):
And you know, I think another part.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Of this too is that so many of us that
have dated women, we will to be friends, we want
to continue to like keep that person in our lives,
but it's like dragging around a fucking anchor.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
I don't want to be friends.
Speaker 4 (14:07):
I don't. I don't either, But.
Speaker 5 (14:09):
That first one that there's that's not we've made peace
since but yeah.
Speaker 4 (14:14):
No, that's just peace, like we can say hello.
Speaker 5 (14:19):
But I do have a lot of people I think
that I'm still like good friends with, like they.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Didn't and they didn't devastate you, Like to me, it's
like they do who got hurt, who got who got
really damaged? And then also I don't need friends like
I have my group of friends, Like I don't need
a plug in here because for me personally. But but
going back to what you said about that feeling of
like you're wildly in love and now you're depressed in
(14:44):
a dark room in your bedroom. Do you think it's
possible now to have that soul fire? Like I'm more
into now I think appreciating a slow burn with somebody,
because I'm not sure that that exists. Again, like it's
all amost like you need that naivete to be in
that situation, to be in that situation.
Speaker 5 (15:05):
I'm not sure that. Like the again, mine was super
like I wasn't thinking I was going to leave him
and like, I mean I would have. She was the
one where I was like, I'll give this all up,
and that was a big statement for me to say.
And I don't I don't know, Like the slow burn,
I feel like I just want I'm not sure. I
can't say yes or no yeah to the slow burn.
(15:28):
I don't know, like is it possible. I think I'm
got magic, And if it's not magic, then I'm like,
all right, I'm cool right now.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
But it's like, are you capable? It's kind of I
would comate to, I know, I mean, like I would
compare it to. I'm an entrepreneur. I started I started
the business. The naivete that it took to start my company.
I had to know nothing because if I had known
all these pitfalls that were going to happen, we never
would have started this company, There's no way. So now
it's like I know so much about what it takes
(15:56):
to start a business that I don't know that the
second time. I'm not stupid anymore. So it's like now
I know too much to just go into it the
way that I did the first time. With that just
like yeah, with my guard down and anything's possible. Well
it's really not, because you've got to do all these
things that if I had known, I wouldn't have done
the business to begin with.
Speaker 5 (16:17):
Because it's so if you would have known, would you
have not had that experience, had that relationship because that
was there for something for sure, you know what I
mean for sure? And there was a lot of love
at one point, YEF. And it was a success.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
I mean yeah, it lasted many years, it was a
big success. But I guess what I want to do
is be able to go into whatever happens next with
that same naivety that I think of, just like anything
can happen, and I don't know that I'm capable anymore.
Like what would you say, Melissa.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
I think that I'm getting capable, Okay, like I think
it's taken a lot of work though, Like this, it's
kind of what I'm saying is like it's taken work
for me to like realize like, oh, you're carrying this
fucking brick along with you and it's not doing you
any favors, right and you know, like you're not going
to be open to anything now. All that to say,
I've had to be very open with my girlfriend. I
(17:12):
was about to say current girlfriend.
Speaker 4 (17:14):
That's a TikTok trend right now to say that and
like watch the reaction. She knows what I'm talking about.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Yeah, but it has taken a lot of work to
be like, you know, I'm very guarded right now. I'm terrified.
And on top of that, like we're long distance that
there's a whole other thing into the into like what
what does our future look like?
Speaker 4 (17:35):
You know, it's it's it.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
I think, you know, in a lot of ways, if
we didn't have that long distance block, we would be
making all the dumb decisions and I would be like,
you know, the crazy person. But I think that it's
kind of the universe looking out for me right now.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
Yeah, it's like you may not have the reckless abandoned
wild baby bird feeling again, but you have something kind
of more mature and exactly okay that I love, Like
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
And like what if we had met and lived in
the same spot and like made all these like wild decisions.
And meanwhile, I didn't process the book that I was carrying,
you know, and then that pops up in a few years, right,
So I think that's another like important. I mean, this
sounds so wu but it's like the universe is looking
out for you all the time, you know, and like
(18:26):
there's things are going to happen to you because they're lessons.
Speaker 4 (18:30):
And I think it takes a long time. I think
it's taken.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Alley and I a long time to realize, like you're saying,
how they're like the gifts that came from those those relationships.
It's hard for us to see the gifts when the
hurt is still so present.
Speaker 5 (18:45):
Yeah, I think that's part of the processing though too. Right,
Like there was this thing I swear like certain things
like like find me or whatever it is, whatever it is,
whether it's music or something like a book or whatever
a movie. There was again in like my darkest time,
which I'm not a very dark person. This thing just
you guy. You guys know Mary Oliver? You know Mary Oliver,
(19:08):
the poet. Oh, yes, yes, yeah, so there was it's
a there's this poem. I actually had to look it
up because I wasn't I had it. It's very small,
so I had it memorized and I was like, is
that just an excerpt? And I didn't want to do
it in justice, But it actually is the full poem
and it's called The Uses of Sorrow And she actually
dreamt this and then she woke up and wrote it.
(19:29):
It says someone I once loved gave me a box
of darkness. And it took me years to realize that
that too was a gift. And I'm like, huh so
if you have this, if you can like the way
I saw it in that time, like that just made
my head go. When I was at my kind of
like my lowest, I was like, okay, so I knew
there was a ton of gift there still is. I
still appreciate every single thing about that that relationship, and
(19:54):
I did. I looked for all every single gift. And
then once you get all that, like what do you
have left? You have the box of darkness? So you
have to. It's your choice to get rid of that,
or you can kind of keep carrying that around, you know.
Does that make sense? Yeah? I don't know that. Just
like like I was at like a super low point
and I read that and I was like, well, it
just gave me hope. I was like, oh, okay, okay,
I get it. Like maybe that wasn't supposed to last forever.
(20:17):
I'm not sure. Well, no it wasn't.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
But I like it's like certain songs, songs and poems
and things do find you when they need to. So
it's just like that's the universe, which I love hearing
my friend Melissa say that the universe because this is
a very skeptical skeptic.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
I am a very skeptical, realistic person, but I have
always like had faith in the universe for sure too,
and kind of like what you're saying, howeather, like these
things that find us, Like I've noticed that a lot
with like the right podcast will find me, you know,
for sure, with the most perfect messaging that I need
to hear, and or the right book. You know, it's
(20:56):
just kind of like I'm instinctively drawn to it, and
you know, I think the it's so right, it's like
these things are gonna they'll they'll find you and help
you along the way when you really really need it.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
And I like too, like what you said about that,
It doesn't you know, maybe the lesson for me isn't
to try to be a baby bird again. It's just
to say that the next whatever that is might might
look different than the first time.
Speaker 5 (21:22):
Well, well then think about the baby bird, right. So,
or like, you're like everyone, it doesn't matter who you are,
what your orientation is. Everyone has that that like first love,
that first soul crushing love, no matter who it is,
and we're just kind of going through it now. Everyone
you know, everyone else went through it and like they're teens, twenties,
and here we are like I'm like, geez, what is
(21:45):
And then I think it causes us to think, like
what the hell's wrong with me? I'm a full grown
ass woman here.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Like why yeah, why am I not?
Speaker 5 (21:53):
Yeah? Like why am I destroyed right now over something?
And I think it is because we're just where it's
like the second adolescent.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
And I think some of the representation that we have
in this community, the people that come to mine are
Glennon and Abbey. You know they're spitting the story of
like where they just met each other and they fell
in love and everybody's perfect.
Speaker 5 (22:17):
I know there's still like I wish that's like my
that's like what I's.
Speaker 4 (22:22):
Right exactly, that's not happening.
Speaker 5 (22:25):
Where are you?
Speaker 2 (22:26):
And a lot of us have gone through such a
hard process that we're like, Okay, now where's my fucking prize?
And then you keep thinking you've got the prize and
then you don't, and like you're saying, like these are
these are all feelings I should have had when I
was in my twenties, you know, some guy, you know,
I'm trying to think. I know that if you know,
after i'd met my soon to be husband at that time,
(22:48):
if I had met him and he left, I would
have been very, very crushed.
Speaker 5 (22:52):
Yeah, that's for sure. I mean I was doing both.
I after as soon as I processed her, then I
had to get over to do what that? Oh that
one's I'm dealing with the kid leaving home. I'm like, Jesus,
come on, can I get a break?
Speaker 1 (23:05):
The heads keep coming. I want to read a quote
to you guys and then have you react to it.
One falls in love and then learns for the duration
that this one, that that one is at the mercy
of someone else's childhood. And I was thinking about for me,
like I'm fifty years old and I still find the
child coming out. So I'm gonna I'm gonna read this again.
One falls in love and then learns for the duration
(23:27):
that one is at the mercy of someone else's childhood.
The more we get into intimacy, the more we encounter
the early scripts that shape us. And like I see
that in my celf. I guess the growth for me
is that I see it now like I see my
my abandonment. I know when it's coming up for me,
I know that anxiety. Well, I know how to put
(23:48):
a name to it and then maybe sometimes I can
deal with it. It happens to me all the time.
It happened today, like where something came up. I see it,
I honor it, and then I move through it. But
I think it it is so true, like we're older
now and we're navigating relationships, and it's like that is
it's hard at fifty to be trying to still deal
(24:10):
with that little child inside of you or the scripts
like for you, Melissa, your mom, and like the perfection
of the girliness or the pageants or the you know
that might show up in a weird way in a
relationship or a pick me situation. Where are you picking me?
So I'm curious how you guys see that in your relationships.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
I mean, I think it's it has been very eye
opening to me to process my childhood in a way
that I initially didn't. You know, that was something that
I didn't do until probably a year or two into
coming out, where I started to think, like, wait a
minute's think that great?
Speaker 4 (24:48):
Wasn't that great?
Speaker 2 (24:50):
And then on top of that, though, I'm realizing that
there are quote, like I would say like micro traumas
because I hate using the word trauma because it's that's
such a big word to use. So like micro traumas
that happened in past relationships, you know, with women where
I have felt like, oh my god, this relationships ending
(25:12):
and it's like it scares the fuck.
Speaker 4 (25:14):
Out of me.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Yeah, and that's something that like I have to like
bring into my current relationship and be like, Okay, this
is stirring up something that happened to me three years ago,
you know.
Speaker 4 (25:25):
And so it's like not just the childhood shit, it's
current shit.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
And you know, on top of that, like you know,
we're talking about how we didn't have these like serious
relationships or heartbreaks.
Speaker 4 (25:38):
It's like now I have.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
I've had more heartbreaks from women than I ever even
like came close.
Speaker 4 (25:43):
To with men.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
So true, and so I'm carrying that fucking baggage.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Yeah, it's true about the micro traumas that happen now.
It's like, You're right, it's not just childhood, it's everything.
I think that's a good point.
Speaker 5 (25:56):
What about you, Heather, look processing childhood trauma? Like I
put you down.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
I'm thinking I can push it down.
Speaker 5 (26:05):
How do you think childhood? Like, I don't know. I
I probably am still sort of. I think I've just
made peace with all of that so long ago. Like
I my mind's a different You would need like a whole,
like three hour podcast to get through my shit. But
I just feel like I've just made peace with I
tend to make peace with things. I'm like, you know,
this is what this is, this is you know, sometimes
(26:26):
I'm like, what am I gonna do? That's not to
say that like I don't have like like I I
think I have a bit of the abandonment thing. But
that's only coming up when I'm really invested, Like I
gotta be really invested in this, like you know, if
it was like my marriage, Like I'm sure in the
beginning there was some abandonment like does he really like me?
(26:47):
Like really like me? Even toward the end, I'm like,
do you really? Do you even like me?
Speaker 1 (26:55):
But then what does that do to you? Like then
are you kind of pushing him away? Are you like
I've people say to me, Okay, then you're you're leaning
in even more. It doesn't make you shut down.
Speaker 5 (27:06):
I would think, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
See I go the other way. I'm like, I'm gonna
take myself out of this completely.
Speaker 5 (27:12):
And then with the Catalyst, that was well that I
think maybe I got through it with that too, because
that was major like abandonment, like she just dropped me
like and like done, like true narcissistic checklists onto the
next one. Drop took every single thing away from me,
like everything was was gone. It was like I had
(27:33):
to start fresh, you know, like no contact, no nothing,
just like nothing for no reason. Oh no, there was
reason but okay, okay, not I mean just situational reasons, right, No,
But I mean I think that's but that's her. But
that's how I look at it. I'm like, well, that's her,
that's her ship. Like you know what I mean, the
fact that you can't talk to me and you know
(27:55):
there was some homophobing going on and all of a sudden.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
No, no, right, is it ever your shit?
Speaker 5 (28:03):
No? I mean I'm pretty awesome.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
No, it's definitely mine a lot of the time.
Speaker 5 (28:09):
No, I don't know. I don't know. I'm pretty easy going.
I'm pretty like, okay, whatever.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
It's good to be you man.
Speaker 4 (28:15):
I mean, I.
Speaker 5 (28:18):
Think like half of my shit was just coming to
the realization of like being comfortable with like me like this,
like this is something I've always known. It's something I've
even talked about like with my my husband, and I
don't know. I was just so so terrified, I think,
to actually make that jump. I mean, he was one
of my biggest champions and helping me do it, you know,
(28:40):
and still is to this day. But yeah, I don't know,
I don't know what that like, what is that? Like?
Why was I so scared for so long? So that's
probably one of my things, But I don't know what
it is.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
And maybe truly because you knew you were gay for
a long time. I did too, but like forever. Yeah,
So that to me is like makes it a little
different because you've processed it over the course of all
the years versus like a Melissa who found out. I
mean that it's a lot to process when you had
no idea and then you do.
Speaker 5 (29:07):
It's like I had, I had, like a I have
like a unique like take on for me is that yes,
I always knew, but you know, I want to say
a lot of my keeping it in was just kind
of like a lack of representation, like I'm just me.
I'm just who I am. You know, I don't this
is just the way I dress, you know what I mean.
There was no thought in anything, and it was for
(29:31):
me my whole life. It was I think a big
lack of representation, Like I have a whole group like
all of my all of my best friends and I
mean my best friends in life are all gay every
and they I watched them all come out in the nineties,
but then I was like I've never even them and
their friends like who've become my friends? But you know
what I mean, Like they're when they came out as lesbians,
(29:53):
all they had a whole new lesbian crew and whatnot.
I'm like, I don't know, I'm not really attracted to anybody.
Speaker 6 (29:59):
Yeah, you know, so then it's like if you're straight
and married, I'm in, like your friends are gay, all
your friends are gay, and you're still not messing with
these women.
Speaker 5 (30:10):
And I was even afraid to tell. I don't know.
They were the first ones I told, but I was
afraid to sell them. Yeah. I don't know why. I
because I think it's like, because they've been out for
so long, part of me has like a I don't know,
I'm like, man, you guys are so brave. Do you
think differently of me? Because I wasn't like yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
I mean I think that is kind of like one
of the hard parts is feeling like, is this community
gonna accept me?
Speaker 4 (30:36):
Are they gonna like think that I'm a phony?
Speaker 5 (30:39):
Especially like well, especially like the ones who've been out
forever like this. What you guys have created is this
whole niche kind of group within that community, you know
what I mean of later in life, And I think
people really like kind of latch onto you guys for that,
you know, because it's like, yeah, I don't even they're
(31:01):
my best friends. I mean, it's for me, it's different.
They're kind of like family, so it's like, all right,
you don't call me every day, but you know, I
know you're there. It's no problem.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
I think in some ways, you know, like entering the community.
I know that I had a little bit of feeling
like people didn't take me seriously. And I've talked to
a lot of other latent life women who feel the
same way about entering the community, and it's I think
it's one of the reasons why the latent life genre
hasn't been highly represented.
Speaker 4 (31:27):
You know.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
I think that some of those women that shared that
information about them were kind of shunned in some way,
and so they just realize, like, oh, I.
Speaker 4 (31:34):
Need to keep this to myself. But it's ridiculous, you know.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
It's like, of course there's people out here that you know,
either tried to force themselves into a straight world or
like me, didn't realize you know, we it's just.
Speaker 4 (31:48):
Around the time that we grew up in and I
think you know what's true.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
Yeah, like watch in about fifteen twenty years, you're going
to see a whole other group of lat in life
lesbians because of exactly what is happening in our world
right now? Right Like there are teenagers right now that
are growing up watching her and they're like, great, I'm
not going to be able to do this, you know,
so I'm curious to see that how that unfolds.
Speaker 5 (32:14):
I've just had, like I always get like a vibe,
like I actually had someone that I went on like, uh,
this was like early early, early on. I was still
like married and he was still living here. But I
went on like a date, like a coffee date with
this woman and she was awesome. We really clicked, but
in the end it was just like again, coffee date,
(32:34):
but it got and got extended. We just kept talking
and it was really great and I was like, wow,
that's but I was super new, like super and he
was still here. You know. She didn't like that, and
which is understandable, but she one of hers like I
don't think. I think it was kind of like the
way she kind of broke it off was like she's
I'm not ready, Like I'm not ready because she's you
know what I mean, yeah, yeah, Like she she's like
(32:57):
I can't get into this because you're just you're not there.
Speaker 4 (32:59):
Yeah, But I mean that's.
Speaker 5 (33:02):
How I feel with that with the people who you
know what I mean, I do have a bit of
imposter syndrome because of those that that stuff.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
Yeah, I mean when that stuff it's expressed, especially when
someone's telling you that and it's like, well, you don't
get to tell me what.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
That's what I was thinking. You don't know what I am.
Speaker 4 (33:17):
Yeah, I think I'm sitting right here right.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Well, thank you so much for coming on and talking
about this. We need hope right now.
Speaker 4 (33:27):
Baby birds in the world, Yeah, I got I have one.
Speaker 5 (33:30):
I have one more, one more thing to read, right
It's it's one of what this is again, dorky another poem,
but it's one of my favorite poets. I think. I
don't know if I think it's a hymn. His name's Atticus.
I think he's pretty Oh, I think like current, but
it's I I just saw it this morning too, and
I was like, wow, this is like universe for the show.
(33:53):
And it says to love is to risk being broken
into a million pieces and knowing it is still worth
the risk. Oh godby bird.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Yeah, that is very baby. That's a perfect It's a
baby is a baby bird perfect? Thank you so much, Heather.
Speaker 5 (34:13):
Yeah, thank you, thank you, thanks for having me all
right by guys.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
B I want to support the Lesbian Chronicles podcast. Rate
us and write a review on Apple podcast or Spotify.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
We love listener feedback. If you'd like to share your story,
email us at Melissa and Ali at gmail dot com.
That's Melissa M. E.
Speaker 5 (34:36):
L I.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
S A and Ali A L l I at gmail
dot com. Or follow us on Instagram at Lesbian Chronicles
I'm Ali. I came out after twenty years of marriage
and I have three kids.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'm Melissa and I have two kids, and I came
out at thirty seven after an eleven year marriage.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
This podcast is about coming out later and the struggles
and victories that come with it.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
When coming out feels like the end of the world,
but it's really just the beginning.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
This is the Lesbian Chronicles. How welcome to the Lesbian Chronicles.
Speaker 4 (00:37):
Welcome, Welcome, How.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Are you my friend? You're my world traveler.
Speaker 4 (00:40):
I know, I.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Feel like I have been everywhere. I went to Ohio
to shoot a very small role in a movie, the
Beautiful Lesbian movie that will be out around the holidays,
and then I flew from there to New York City
to meet up with my girlfriend and we had a
nice little trip to New York.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Your video was amazing. Yeah, who filmed it? Like, all
the whole time, I'm thinking, who does she have filming
this thing?
Speaker 5 (01:06):
Me?
Speaker 1 (01:07):
I don't get were you at LaGuardia?
Speaker 4 (01:09):
It's pack was at LaGuardia.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
So the thing is, I flew Delta and she flew Southwest,
and I also got there like about an.
Speaker 4 (01:18):
Hour earlier, and so.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
I'm like I land there and I'm kind of taking
my time, and then I realized, like, wait a second,
I've got to get a bag from baggage.
Speaker 4 (01:28):
Clam or they're going to take it. And sure shit,
they did, and so I had to go wait in line.
But then I realized that, like.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
LaGuardia is not set up like Atlanta, where you just
like you know, take a little plane train.
Speaker 4 (01:38):
You have to take a bus to go to the
different terminals.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
I've done LaGuardia a hundred times. I've never gotten on
a bus.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Because she flew in with Southwest. I'm with Delta, So
Southwest is a different terminal.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Okay, So okay, because you were meeting up, you had
to get on a bus.
Speaker 5 (01:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
So I get on the bus go to the other terminal,
and I know that her baggage is at like five,
and so I'm standing there and I see her and
I'm like, oh shit, like I need to like set
up my camera and get a shot of this. And
so I'm like literally like hiding behind my bag, like
trying to set up my camera. And then I finally
get it set up and I come out and I'm
like looking around and I can't find her anywhere, and
(02:16):
I'm like, how did this person just disappear? Yeah, and
then I was I turned around, I saw this better shot,
said like iHeart in my seat, and I'm like that
would be a much better shot.
Speaker 4 (02:27):
So I flipped my stuff around.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
And then I'm standing there and I'm like, I still
don't see her, and I feel like an idiot because
I'm standing in front of this, like you know, photo
op place alone.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
I don't even know how you got alone. It's what
I'm wondering, because it's like people, people people.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
I don't know. It was like somehow people stopped crossing
in front of me. Okay, I saw me.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Yeah, so anyway, yeah, I thought it was I'm like,
I wasn't planning on like posting that video, but then
I'm like going back and looking at it and like
watching how much the changes. So I don't know, And
especially I feel like a lot of people can relate.
There's a lot of lesbians and long distance relationships.
Speaker 4 (03:07):
I loved it, so thank you.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Yeah, my natural tendency is to make fun of you,
and I didn't feel that. I felt I'm like, look
at my friends, we should post it on our site.
Speaker 4 (03:20):
We should. Yeah, it's kind of you can put it
on there.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Yeah, so it my way. Well, we have a guest
who's a repeat guest who I'll tell you kind of
how this started. So we did the baby bird episode,
and most people related to the baby they agree it's
like you meet these women and they're so hopeful, but
on our side, it's just like we're beat down, we're
(03:47):
jaded assholes. It's like no one, no one, there's nothing
exciting out there anymore. I'm half joking, but mostly that's
how I feel most of the time. Actually, so and
even just like in dating, it's like you're almost like
so distrusting that it's like I don't even let myself
get that excited because I'm just like, what are the
(04:08):
odds I've seen now what happens? And I don't know?
So anyway, So one of our friends of the pod
who I was dming with, she's just kind of like
in our same like has dated, been hurt but came
out and still has the fucking hope of like it's
gonna be good again, or I'm going to meet this
person like she's not doesn't feel the jade that I
(04:31):
see in us, and some of our friends, and so
I was like, you have to come on the pod
to talk about it. She just really didn't want to,
but with enough pressure, uh, she she decided to come on.
So thank you, Heather.
Speaker 5 (04:44):
Thanks thanks for ye I mean, yeah, it's pretty accurate.
It's pretty accurate.
Speaker 4 (04:51):
I can sell eskimo.
Speaker 5 (04:53):
So, I mean, I wasn't like I wasn't as nervous
like the first time. It was nervous the first time.
It was also like a Monday, She's like, will you
come on tomorrow?
Speaker 1 (05:00):
That's pretty Yeah, that's pretty difficult.
Speaker 5 (05:03):
This time I had time to think about it.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
That's true. Well this was your because you have this
day off, right, like this is your day off? Okay,
oh yeah, So I loved what you said about you know,
when you're like we are, it is kind of like
you're postponing joy, like you're you're not a baby bird anymore,
and it's like you have I see these opportunities all
around me, and yet I don't just like go into
(05:26):
it with this open heart. It's like it's too late
for that, it feels like for me, So I'm curious, Like,
I guess just start with like you were married, you
realized you were gay and then came out how long ago.
Speaker 5 (05:39):
And we're complicated in that, but that was it was
like a long process. I don't I mean, there was
a lot there's a lot of nuance to that because
I don't know if there was a realizing more so
then accepting, you know, Okay, being married for twenty years
to a wonderful man who is still my best friend.
I don't know. I kind of always knew and there
(06:00):
was always kind of space within the relationship to sometimes
explore that.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Basically, you ut and you end up leaving your marriage
and dating, yeah, okay, And I know, like from our
conversations you had had a heartbreak along the way for sure,
and then but I guess go from there as far
as like so, I feel like the heartbreak along the
way was kind of like my like realization.
Speaker 5 (06:26):
You know. It was like I always knew, but there
was in my brain like never like I thought that
I was ever going to change anything, Like I was
never going to leave him, Like it was, you know,
we were great, We're still great, you know what I mean,
totally different thing. But I didn't realize it wasn't working
for him either. It was almost like I wasn't giving
him what he needed, you know what I mean, we
(06:47):
didn't know why because we worked every other way anyway.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Were you scared at that point of like oh my god, wow,
Like it's one thing for me to be thinking I'm
gay and now or I am gay and I'm leaving
and now it's also like, wait, he might be leaving me.
Speaker 5 (07:00):
Yeah, yeah, that did happen.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Yeah, okay, yeah, like I'm getting left.
Speaker 5 (07:04):
Yeah, sure, that's interesting. But then there was this one
person who super close with and he totally knew about
it and was fine to just kind of we gave
each other a lot of space to make sure that
this awesome thing we built we wanted to separate from.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
You separate and you go on to date women, Yeah,
for several years, I assume for several years, Okay, and
then I think that leads us, yeah, until now leads
us to kind of where we are now, which is
somehow you have maintained you're still a baby bird, Like
you're still and I guess Melissa define baby bird for
(07:43):
people who didn't listen to that episode.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
So baby bird to us means someone who's just so
like hopeful and happy and like out here in the
world with a full belly and no predators.
Speaker 4 (07:55):
Like Meanwhile, Ali and I feel very jaded.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
We both had our heartbroken and I think having that
heartbreak happen, it's made me very guarded and it's something
that I've had to let go of and be like,
if I don't drop this, then I have no future.
Speaker 4 (08:13):
Yeah, I'm sitting in my own way at this point.
Speaker 5 (08:16):
Think about this. Everything you just described that I went through,
that you guys both went through, Like did you do
all that? Did you come that far and do like
all that work? Being comfortable with yourself, being comfortable to
let everyone in the world know who you are? Did
you do all that for that one relationship? Was it
all for that one? And then it's like, oh, that
(08:38):
didn't work, So I'm just gonna kind of call the
you know, throw the talent.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
Yeah, And.
Speaker 5 (08:46):
You know, you could think of it as like maybe
just maybe that was there for the time it was there,
you know what I mean, And then with the good,
the bad, and the ugly, you can take take all
that is like gifts from that and you can use
that like for the next time as like now you
have those gifts, Now you have that knowledge, and that
could be kind of like your superpower into your next,
(09:08):
your next thing.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
That's the goal. But I think like, at least for me,
and I'd be curious what Melissa would say, is it's
like not that you blew up everything for this one thing.
That's definitely not And in my case, I had dated
a couple of women before I had my heart broken.
But for me, it's more around like fear of like
I don't want to do this again, so I'm just
not even going to fully put myself out there because
(09:32):
I have too many walls up now because she destroyed me.
So it's like you come to a place of like
I don't the dog bit me. I'm not going to
have that dog again, Like I'm just now protecting myself.
Speaker 5 (09:46):
I hear that. But like after that, like I had
like a super soul crushing, it's like my awakening, my transformation.
That was the first one. But after that, like I
feel like I might as well just go for it,
because if I survived that, I could survive anything, Like
what else? What do you? I don't think it could
be worse. I literally don't think it could be worse
than that one thing that I'm in my brain, the
(10:09):
first one.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Yeah, I think that's so it's.
Speaker 5 (10:11):
Like, you know what I mean, like why not just
go for it? Like, guys, we only have we're like
halfway there, We're like halfway to the grave. You might
as well keep yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
And I think one of my biggest challenges has been
like that I put so much trust in that person
that I was with, and I fully like believe that
I really knew them very well, and then to see
them kind of flip and shift away from being that
person that I really thought I knew it makes me
like question a lot of like who people really are.
(10:42):
And I had a friend recently tell me, you know,
she's kind of hardened a bit like us, and her
person was saying, you know, like I'm so in love,
like this is it for me all this stuff, and
she was like, you know, come to me in five
years and tell me that it's too soon to kind
of be declaring that, and like, I know what can happen,
(11:05):
and like I need to see like more history here
before I'm able to like make those kind of declarations.
Speaker 4 (11:13):
And I think that's really true.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
I think that's one of the things that Ali and
I have both dealt with is is kind of being
like being so sure about someone and maybe you relate
to this.
Speaker 4 (11:22):
To another being so sure and then being like oh
fuck I was wrong.
Speaker 5 (11:26):
Yeah now I haven't had that, like, so mine was
like still, I was like really pre coming out when
when all this happened for me, that this is that
was why, like that heartbreak was why I can't I
actually came out and blew the life up because I mean,
I mean this could be just me. I think I'm
just a baby bird.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Like in general, in general, it's a great thing.
Speaker 4 (11:50):
I was gonna say, I'm so appreciation for the baby birds.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Yeah, I have a mad appreciation.
Speaker 5 (11:56):
I just knew even in my darkest moment, Like I
remember thinking it like okay, well that that I never
felt that before and and it sounds terrible because like
I was married. I love him to death like for sure,
but I was like have I ever been in love?
Like it literally made me ask myself that question. And
(12:18):
then when I was in like the really like it
was like I was in a cocoon like a and
I'm a pretty happy person. I'm not a sad person.
Like I don't like it. I find ways to get
out of it. And I was like, like he even said,
I've known him for like twenty thirty years, and he
was like, I've never seen you like this. Like I
(12:40):
was just in the summer, up in my room in
the dark, leave me alone, can't listen to music, can't anything.
But I remember thinking, like I want to feel that again.
I know I wanted to feel that again. You know,
I've that way toward him for someone, so like I
just always had that, And I was like, right, I
just have to get through that. I just knew I
(13:01):
had to get through this. It's like, are you holding
on to it? Are you holding onto the sadness? It's
like that. It's like that Gotier song, like you can
be addicted to a certain kind of sadness. It's like
do we have that? Because that's all we have left
of something that was wonderful and that we we cherished,
and like that's all this is all I have now,
So I'm just going to keep this. I'm going to
(13:21):
keep this and it's gonna make me, you know, jaded
or whatever.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Right, And that's something I realized a few months ago,
was like, man, I'm like holding onto this because it's
the last piece of my story, right, Yeah, And and
like but it's also preventing me from moving forward. Right,
So there is a certain point where you do have
to be like, you know what, like they've they've taken
(13:44):
enough from me, like you know, taken my spark and
my spirit for long enough, like I can't let that continue.
Speaker 4 (13:52):
And you know, I think another part.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Of this too is that so many of us that
have dated women, we will to be friends, we want
to continue to like keep that person in our lives,
but it's like dragging around a fucking anchor.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
I don't want to be friends.
Speaker 4 (14:07):
I don't. I don't either, But.
Speaker 5 (14:09):
That first one that there's that's not we've made peace
since but yeah.
Speaker 4 (14:14):
No, that's just peace, like we can say hello.
Speaker 5 (14:19):
But I do have a lot of people I think
that I'm still like good friends with, like they.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Didn't and they didn't devastate you, Like to me, it's
like they do who got hurt, who got who got
really damaged? And then also I don't need friends like
I have my group of friends, Like I don't need
a plug in here because for me personally. But but
going back to what you said about that feeling of
like you're wildly in love and now you're depressed in
(14:44):
a dark room in your bedroom. Do you think it's
possible now to have that soul fire? Like I'm more
into now I think appreciating a slow burn with somebody,
because I'm not sure that that exists. Again, like it's
all amost like you need that naivete to be in
that situation, to be in that situation.
Speaker 5 (15:05):
I'm not sure that. Like the again, mine was super
like I wasn't thinking I was going to leave him
and like, I mean I would have. She was the
one where I was like, I'll give this all up,
and that was a big statement for me to say.
And I don't I don't know, Like the slow burn,
I feel like I just want I'm not sure. I
can't say yes or no yeah to the slow burn.
(15:28):
I don't know, like is it possible. I think I'm
got magic, And if it's not magic, then I'm like,
all right, I'm cool right now.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
But it's like, are you capable? It's kind of I
would comate to, I know, I mean, like I would
compare it to. I'm an entrepreneur. I started I started
the business. The naivete that it took to start my company.
I had to know nothing because if I had known
all these pitfalls that were going to happen, we never
would have started this company, There's no way. So now
it's like I know so much about what it takes
(15:56):
to start a business that I don't know that the
second time. I'm not stupid anymore. So it's like now
I know too much to just go into it the
way that I did the first time. With that just
like yeah, with my guard down and anything's possible. Well
it's really not, because you've got to do all these
things that if I had known, I wouldn't have done
the business to begin with.
Speaker 5 (16:17):
Because it's so if you would have known, would you
have not had that experience, had that relationship because that
was there for something for sure, you know what I
mean for sure? And there was a lot of love
at one point, YEF. And it was a success.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
I mean yeah, it lasted many years, it was a
big success. But I guess what I want to do
is be able to go into whatever happens next with
that same naivety that I think of, just like anything
can happen, and I don't know that I'm capable anymore.
Like what would you say, Melissa.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
I think that I'm getting capable, Okay, like I think
it's taken a lot of work though, Like this, it's
kind of what I'm saying is like it's taken work
for me to like realize like, oh, you're carrying this
fucking brick along with you and it's not doing you
any favors, right and you know, like you're not going
to be open to anything now. All that to say,
I've had to be very open with my girlfriend. I
(17:12):
was about to say current girlfriend.
Speaker 4 (17:14):
That's a TikTok trend right now to say that and
like watch the reaction. She knows what I'm talking about.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Yeah, but it has taken a lot of work to
be like, you know, I'm very guarded right now. I'm terrified.
And on top of that, like we're long distance that
there's a whole other thing into the into like what
what does our future look like?
Speaker 4 (17:35):
You know, it's it's it.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
I think, you know, in a lot of ways, if
we didn't have that long distance block, we would be
making all the dumb decisions and I would be like,
you know, the crazy person. But I think that it's
kind of the universe looking out for me right now.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
Yeah, it's like you may not have the reckless abandoned
wild baby bird feeling again, but you have something kind
of more mature and exactly okay that I love, Like
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
And like what if we had met and lived in
the same spot and like made all these like wild decisions.
And meanwhile, I didn't process the book that I was carrying,
you know, and then that pops up in a few years, right,
So I think that's another like important. I mean, this
sounds so wu but it's like the universe is looking
out for you all the time, you know, and like
(18:26):
there's things are going to happen to you because they're lessons.
Speaker 4 (18:30):
And I think it takes a long time. I think
it's taken.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Alley and I a long time to realize, like you're saying,
how they're like the gifts that came from those those relationships.
It's hard for us to see the gifts when the
hurt is still so present.
Speaker 5 (18:45):
Yeah, I think that's part of the processing though too. Right,
Like there was this thing I swear like certain things
like like find me or whatever it is, whatever it is,
whether it's music or something like a book or whatever
a movie. There was again in like my darkest time,
which I'm not a very dark person. This thing just
you guy. You guys know Mary Oliver? You know Mary Oliver,
(19:08):
the poet. Oh, yes, yes, yeah, so there was it's
a there's this poem. I actually had to look it
up because I wasn't I had it. It's very small,
so I had it memorized and I was like, is
that just an excerpt? And I didn't want to do
it in justice, But it actually is the full poem
and it's called The Uses of Sorrow And she actually
dreamt this and then she woke up and wrote it.
(19:29):
It says someone I once loved gave me a box
of darkness. And it took me years to realize that
that too was a gift. And I'm like, huh so
if you have this, if you can like the way
I saw it in that time, like that just made
my head go. When I was at my kind of
like my lowest, I was like, okay, so I knew
there was a ton of gift there still is. I
still appreciate every single thing about that that relationship, and
(19:54):
I did. I looked for all every single gift. And
then once you get all that, like what do you
have left? You have the box of darkness? So you
have to. It's your choice to get rid of that,
or you can kind of keep carrying that around, you know.
Does that make sense? Yeah? I don't know that. Just
like like I was at like a super low point
and I read that and I was like, well, it
just gave me hope. I was like, oh, okay, okay,
I get it. Like maybe that wasn't supposed to last forever.
(20:17):
I'm not sure. Well, no it wasn't.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
But I like it's like certain songs, songs and poems
and things do find you when they need to. So
it's just like that's the universe, which I love hearing
my friend Melissa say that the universe because this is
a very skeptical skeptic.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
I am a very skeptical, realistic person, but I have
always like had faith in the universe for sure too,
and kind of like what you're saying, howeather, like these
things that find us, Like I've noticed that a lot
with like the right podcast will find me, you know,
for sure, with the most perfect messaging that I need
to hear, and or the right book. You know, it's
(20:56):
just kind of like I'm instinctively drawn to it, and
you know, I think the it's so right, it's like
these things are gonna they'll they'll find you and help
you along the way when you really really need it.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
And I like too, like what you said about that,
It doesn't you know, maybe the lesson for me isn't
to try to be a baby bird again. It's just
to say that the next whatever that is might might
look different than the first time.
Speaker 5 (21:22):
Well, well then think about the baby bird, right. So,
or like, you're like everyone, it doesn't matter who you are,
what your orientation is. Everyone has that that like first love,
that first soul crushing love, no matter who it is,
and we're just kind of going through it now. Everyone
you know, everyone else went through it and like they're teens, twenties,
and here we are like I'm like, geez, what is
(21:45):
And then I think it causes us to think, like
what the hell's wrong with me? I'm a full grown
ass woman here.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Like why yeah, why am I not?
Speaker 5 (21:53):
Yeah? Like why am I destroyed right now over something?
And I think it is because we're just where it's
like the second adolescent.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
And I think some of the representation that we have
in this community, the people that come to mine are
Glennon and Abbey. You know they're spitting the story of
like where they just met each other and they fell
in love and everybody's perfect.
Speaker 5 (22:17):
I know there's still like I wish that's like my
that's like what I's.
Speaker 4 (22:22):
Right exactly, that's not happening.
Speaker 5 (22:25):
Where are you?
Speaker 2 (22:26):
And a lot of us have gone through such a
hard process that we're like, Okay, now where's my fucking prize?
And then you keep thinking you've got the prize and
then you don't, and like you're saying, like these are
these are all feelings I should have had when I
was in my twenties, you know, some guy, you know,
I'm trying to think. I know that if you know,
after i'd met my soon to be husband at that time,
(22:48):
if I had met him and he left, I would
have been very, very crushed.
Speaker 5 (22:52):
Yeah, that's for sure. I mean I was doing both.
I after as soon as I processed her, then I
had to get over to do what that? Oh that
one's I'm dealing with the kid leaving home. I'm like, Jesus,
come on, can I get a break?
Speaker 1 (23:05):
The heads keep coming. I want to read a quote
to you guys and then have you react to it.
One falls in love and then learns for the duration
that this one, that that one is at the mercy
of someone else's childhood. And I was thinking about for me,
like I'm fifty years old and I still find the
child coming out. So I'm gonna I'm gonna read this again.
One falls in love and then learns for the duration
(23:27):
that one is at the mercy of someone else's childhood.
The more we get into intimacy, the more we encounter
the early scripts that shape us. And like I see
that in my celf. I guess the growth for me
is that I see it now like I see my
my abandonment. I know when it's coming up for me,
I know that anxiety. Well, I know how to put
(23:48):
a name to it and then maybe sometimes I can
deal with it. It happens to me all the time.
It happened today, like where something came up. I see it,
I honor it, and then I move through it. But
I think it it is so true, like we're older
now and we're navigating relationships, and it's like that is
it's hard at fifty to be trying to still deal
(24:10):
with that little child inside of you or the scripts
like for you, Melissa, your mom, and like the perfection
of the girliness or the pageants or the you know
that might show up in a weird way in a
relationship or a pick me situation. Where are you picking me?
So I'm curious how you guys see that in your relationships.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
I mean, I think it's it has been very eye
opening to me to process my childhood in a way
that I initially didn't. You know, that was something that
I didn't do until probably a year or two into
coming out, where I started to think, like, wait a
minute's think that great?
Speaker 4 (24:48):
Wasn't that great?
Speaker 2 (24:50):
And then on top of that, though, I'm realizing that
there are quote, like I would say like micro traumas
because I hate using the word trauma because it's that's
such a big word to use. So like micro traumas
that happened in past relationships, you know, with women where
I have felt like, oh my god, this relationships ending
(25:12):
and it's like it scares the fuck.
Speaker 4 (25:14):
Out of me.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Yeah, and that's something that like I have to like
bring into my current relationship and be like, Okay, this
is stirring up something that happened to me three years ago,
you know.
Speaker 4 (25:25):
And so it's like not just the childhood shit, it's
current shit.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
And you know, on top of that, like you know,
we're talking about how we didn't have these like serious
relationships or heartbreaks.
Speaker 4 (25:38):
It's like now I have.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
I've had more heartbreaks from women than I ever even
like came close.
Speaker 4 (25:43):
To with men.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
So true, and so I'm carrying that fucking baggage.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Yeah, it's true about the micro traumas that happen now.
It's like, You're right, it's not just childhood, it's everything.
I think that's a good point.
Speaker 5 (25:56):
What about you, Heather, look processing childhood trauma? Like I
put you down.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
I'm thinking I can push it down.
Speaker 5 (26:05):
How do you think childhood? Like, I don't know. I
I probably am still sort of. I think I've just
made peace with all of that so long ago. Like
I my mind's a different You would need like a whole,
like three hour podcast to get through my shit. But
I just feel like I've just made peace with I
tend to make peace with things. I'm like, you know,
this is what this is, this is you know, sometimes
(26:26):
I'm like, what am I gonna do? That's not to
say that like I don't have like like I I
think I have a bit of the abandonment thing. But
that's only coming up when I'm really invested, Like I
gotta be really invested in this, like you know, if
it was like my marriage, Like I'm sure in the
beginning there was some abandonment like does he really like me?
(26:47):
Like really like me? Even toward the end, I'm like,
do you really? Do you even like me?
Speaker 1 (26:55):
But then what does that do to you? Like then
are you kind of pushing him away? Are you like
I've people say to me, Okay, then you're you're leaning
in even more. It doesn't make you shut down.
Speaker 5 (27:06):
I would think, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
See I go the other way. I'm like, I'm gonna
take myself out of this completely.
Speaker 5 (27:12):
And then with the Catalyst, that was well that I
think maybe I got through it with that too, because
that was major like abandonment, like she just dropped me
like and like done, like true narcissistic checklists onto the
next one. Drop took every single thing away from me,
like everything was was gone. It was like I had
(27:33):
to start fresh, you know, like no contact, no nothing,
just like nothing for no reason. Oh no, there was
reason but okay, okay, not I mean just situational reasons, right, No,
But I mean I think that's but that's her. But
that's how I look at it. I'm like, well, that's her,
that's her ship. Like you know what I mean, the
fact that you can't talk to me and you know
(27:55):
there was some homophobing going on and all of a sudden.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
No, no, right, is it ever your shit?
Speaker 5 (28:03):
No? I mean I'm pretty awesome.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
No, it's definitely mine a lot of the time.
Speaker 5 (28:09):
No, I don't know. I don't know. I'm pretty easy going.
I'm pretty like, okay, whatever.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
It's good to be you man.
Speaker 4 (28:15):
I mean, I.
Speaker 5 (28:18):
Think like half of my shit was just coming to
the realization of like being comfortable with like me like this,
like this is something I've always known. It's something I've
even talked about like with my my husband, and I
don't know. I was just so so terrified, I think,
to actually make that jump. I mean, he was one
of my biggest champions and helping me do it, you know,
(28:40):
and still is to this day. But yeah, I don't know,
I don't know what that like, what is that? Like?
Why was I so scared for so long? So that's
probably one of my things, But I don't know what
it is.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
And maybe truly because you knew you were gay for
a long time. I did too, but like forever. Yeah,
So that to me is like makes it a little
different because you've processed it over the course of all
the years versus like a Melissa who found out. I
mean that it's a lot to process when you had
no idea and then you do.
Speaker 5 (29:07):
It's like I had, I had, like a I have
like a unique like take on for me is that yes,
I always knew, but you know, I want to say
a lot of my keeping it in was just kind
of like a lack of representation, like I'm just me.
I'm just who I am. You know, I don't this
is just the way I dress, you know what I mean.
There was no thought in anything, and it was for
(29:31):
me my whole life. It was I think a big
lack of representation, Like I have a whole group like
all of my all of my best friends and I
mean my best friends in life are all gay every
and they I watched them all come out in the nineties,
but then I was like I've never even them and
their friends like who've become my friends? But you know
what I mean, Like they're when they came out as lesbians,
(29:53):
all they had a whole new lesbian crew and whatnot.
I'm like, I don't know, I'm not really attracted to anybody.
Speaker 6 (29:59):
Yeah, you know, so then it's like if you're straight
and married, I'm in, like your friends are gay, all
your friends are gay, and you're still not messing with
these women.
Speaker 5 (30:10):
And I was even afraid to tell. I don't know.
They were the first ones I told, but I was
afraid to sell them. Yeah. I don't know why. I
because I think it's like, because they've been out for
so long, part of me has like a I don't know,
I'm like, man, you guys are so brave. Do you
think differently of me? Because I wasn't like yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
I mean I think that is kind of like one
of the hard parts is feeling like, is this community
gonna accept me?
Speaker 4 (30:36):
Are they gonna like think that I'm a phony?
Speaker 5 (30:39):
Especially like well, especially like the ones who've been out
forever like this. What you guys have created is this
whole niche kind of group within that community, you know
what I mean of later in life, And I think
people really like kind of latch onto you guys for that,
you know, because it's like, yeah, I don't even they're
(31:01):
my best friends. I mean, it's for me, it's different.
They're kind of like family, so it's like, all right,
you don't call me every day, but you know, I
know you're there. It's no problem.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
I think in some ways, you know, like entering the community.
I know that I had a little bit of feeling
like people didn't take me seriously. And I've talked to
a lot of other latent life women who feel the
same way about entering the community, and it's I think
it's one of the reasons why the latent life genre
hasn't been highly represented.
Speaker 4 (31:27):
You know.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
I think that some of those women that shared that
information about them were kind of shunned in some way,
and so they just realize, like, oh, I.
Speaker 4 (31:34):
Need to keep this to myself. But it's ridiculous, you know.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
It's like, of course there's people out here that you know,
either tried to force themselves into a straight world or
like me, didn't realize you know, we it's just.
Speaker 4 (31:48):
Around the time that we grew up in and I
think you know what's true.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
Yeah, like watch in about fifteen twenty years, you're going
to see a whole other group of lat in life
lesbians because of exactly what is happening in our world
right now? Right Like there are teenagers right now that
are growing up watching her and they're like, great, I'm
not going to be able to do this, you know,
so I'm curious to see that how that unfolds.
Speaker 5 (32:14):
I've just had, like I always get like a vibe,
like I actually had someone that I went on like, uh,
this was like early early, early on. I was still
like married and he was still living here. But I
went on like a date, like a coffee date with
this woman and she was awesome. We really clicked, but
in the end it was just like again, coffee date,
(32:34):
but it got and got extended. We just kept talking
and it was really great and I was like, wow,
that's but I was super new, like super and he
was still here. You know. She didn't like that, and
which is understandable, but she one of hers like I
don't think. I think it was kind of like the
way she kind of broke it off was like she's
I'm not ready, Like I'm not ready because she's you
know what I mean, yeah, yeah, Like she she's like
(32:57):
I can't get into this because you're just you're not there.
Speaker 4 (32:59):
Yeah, But I mean that's.
Speaker 5 (33:02):
How I feel with that with the people who you
know what I mean, I do have a bit of
imposter syndrome because of those that that stuff.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
Yeah, I mean when that stuff it's expressed, especially when
someone's telling you that and it's like, well, you don't
get to tell me what.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
That's what I was thinking. You don't know what I am.
Speaker 4 (33:17):
Yeah, I think I'm sitting right here right.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Well, thank you so much for coming on and talking
about this. We need hope right now.
Speaker 4 (33:27):
Baby birds in the world, Yeah, I got I have one.
Speaker 5 (33:30):
I have one more, one more thing to read, right
It's it's one of what this is again, dorky another poem,
but it's one of my favorite poets. I think. I
don't know if I think it's a hymn. His name's Atticus.
I think he's pretty Oh, I think like current, but
it's I I just saw it this morning too, and
I was like, wow, this is like universe for the show.
(33:53):
And it says to love is to risk being broken
into a million pieces and knowing it is still worth
the risk. Oh godby bird.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Yeah, that is very baby. That's a perfect It's a
baby is a baby bird perfect? Thank you so much, Heather.
Speaker 5 (34:13):
Yeah, thank you, thank you, thanks for having me all
right by guys.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
B I want to support the Lesbian Chronicles podcast. Rate
us and write a review on Apple podcast or Spotify.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
We love listener feedback. If you'd like to share your story,
email us at Melissa and Ali at gmail dot com.
That's Melissa M. E.
Speaker 5 (34:36):
L I.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
S A and Ali A L l I at gmail
dot com. Or follow us on Instagram at Lesbian Chronicles
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.