September 14, 2025 • 37 mins
TRIGGER WARNING: This episode touches on religious trauma, conversion therapy and grooming.
Our friend Anna joins the show to share how she went from being involved in a Christian cult, moving to Iraq and Libya as a Christian missionary -- to having her sexual re-awakening while living in the Middle East.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/lesbian-chronicles-coming-out-later-in-life--5601514/support.
Our friend Anna joins the show to share how she went from being involved in a Christian cult, moving to Iraq and Libya as a Christian missionary -- to having her sexual re-awakening while living in the Middle East.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/lesbian-chronicles-coming-out-later-in-life--5601514/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
I'm Ali.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I came out after twenty years of marriage and I
have three kids.
Speaker 3 (00:09):
I'm Melissa and I have two kids, and I came
out at thirty seven after an eleven year marriage.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
This podcast is about coming out later and the struggles
and victories.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
That come with it.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
When coming out feels like the end of the world,
but it's really just the beginning.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
This is the Lesbian Chronicles.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Welcome to the Lesbian Chronicles. Welcome. So you're in the
throes of it, I am man.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
I've got a few more days until I close on
my new house and both houses are closing the same
day and got to move and it's a lot. I'd
in the midst of packing and trying to like do it efficiently.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
But Dan, aren't you glad though that it's to me
the stressful part is like waiting for the closing.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Yeah, and like that's all like coming together. But every
email I get with like some sort of like sign
this for the closing or like this is how much
money cash to close, I'm like.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Oh do I have it? Like I know, I know,
I want.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
To throw up a little bit.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
There's always like an eleventh hour like scary thing, like
I did the same thing where I was closing on
both for this house in the same day, and something
happened where I couldn't close on mine yet, and so
the moving trucks who I had already hired, and the
truck was full, and I was I mean, I was
planning to sleep here.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
They had to just park in the driveway.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
And she agreed to like let my stuff just sit
overnight and wait for the closing because they wouldn't let
me move in till it closed. And it was like
I'm at a hotel and I'm like, this is like
super fucking stressful, Like.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
What if it is to close and now I've got
this I don't know.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
I think when you're self employed, everything is like an
eleventh hour Oh fuck m h.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
I know right now I'm like not spending any money. Yeah,
I know they're going to look at my bank account.
And then the other thing that always freaks me out
is a wiring instruction, and there is something so nerve
wrecked I know about like what if I get a
number wrong?
Speaker 1 (02:12):
I know, what if I get a number wrong money to.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Some like you know, overseas bank account or right, I
don't know.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
I think the same shit every time, it does feel
kind of archaic, right mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
I'm like, we don't have a better method to do this.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
I know, like what if I get a number wrong?
So yeah, it's very very true.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Well, I'm super excited about our guests. And what's wild
is we both have the same idea and so when
I asked her, you were like I've already been thinking
about her, Like that's amazing. So anyway, Anna Christy, welcome
to Lesbian Chronicles.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
Thank you so much. I'm really excited to be here
with you both.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Yeah, well, your story like captivated me at we had
dinner a few months ago, I guess and I literally said,
I feel bad like I ignored everyone else.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
At the time.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
I was like completely dialed in on Anna Christy, Like
the I was just even when she went to the bathroom,
I'm like, we're all just gonna have to wait, guys
until she gets back and she can finish the story.
Like it was so good, Like I just your history
is so fascinating to me.
Speaker 4 (03:16):
Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 5 (03:19):
A lot of a lot of adventure and a lot
of trauma and a lot of excitement packed into uh
the first four decades of life. So like I said,
I'm excited to chat with you guys today.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Start a little bit like, I think it's interesting too,
Like your upbringing was here, right, so yeah, and kind
of a traditional, like pretty solid upbringing like start there,
I guess because to me that's even interesting.
Speaker 4 (03:45):
Yeah. So I grew up here in the Atlanta area, and.
Speaker 5 (03:52):
I had an older brother and kind of just from
the get go was a tomboy like and I don't
know how much of that had to do with my
innate gayness or how much I just looked up to
my big brother and wanted to be like him and
participate in everything he was doing. But any sort of
like Christmas present I requested was like a skateboard guitar,
(04:16):
you know, really kind of more gay leaning, and even
in silly ways, like in middle school, I begged my
parents to get me my own bowling ball. You know,
it's like what kind of middle school girl wants her
own bowling ball? So, you know, as I look back,
just even at family photo albums, I can see like,
(04:37):
oh gosh, this was this was always in the fabric.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
But as I started to kind.
Speaker 5 (04:44):
Of be exposed to more pop culture type things, I
can even look back and see that like, very early on,
I had interest or.
Speaker 4 (04:53):
Attraction in women.
Speaker 5 (04:55):
And what I mean by that is like, you know,
it was the eighties, which anytime my youngest son sees something.
Speaker 4 (05:04):
Old, he's like, wow, I bet that's from the eighties.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Oh my god? Can I interrupt the second how my
son said, ask me about when Pokemon started? He was like,
that was back in the nineteen hundreds, right, Oh my god,
Like get out of my car.
Speaker 4 (05:19):
Whoa?
Speaker 1 (05:21):
What does it do about things like that?
Speaker 2 (05:22):
That when you go back to look like we're going
to watch Cocktail tonight, the movie with Tom Cruise, and
I was showing read the trailer and it does look
like it's.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
From the fifties.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
I'm like, yeah, and this is the eighties, but okay,
go ahead.
Speaker 5 (05:37):
Yeah, And so like being exposed to pop culture, which
I guess like my first earliest memories were the great
American classic Saved by the Bell, and so many of
my friends were like, whoa you know like Zach Morris,
you know a C. Slater And I just remember at
a young age being like, but have.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
You seen.
Speaker 4 (06:03):
Have you seen her? Like the Queen of Bayside?
Speaker 1 (06:06):
She is? She was?
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Yeah, Jesse comes along and I'm like I kind of
want to be Jesse.
Speaker 5 (06:13):
Yeah not Jesse, right, And so I think there's like
that time of like, okay, do I want to be her?
Am I attracted to her? But you know, I knew
that I was a tomboy and very athletic, and I
knew that that's not like I was not going to
be the Queen of Bayside cheerleader like I was. Just
(06:33):
I found her alluring. And so fast forward, I in
high school dated a guy for two years, like had
a very serious boyfriend, and I was invited to go
with a local church here in the Atlanta area on
(06:55):
a ski trip. This is my senior year of high school.
I was seventeen, And for me, I'm like, yeah, sure,
Like you know this youth group, you know they're going
to talk about God, but like we get to go
to winter Park and go skiing like this rules. And
so there was a female youth leader who was a
(07:16):
part of that church, and she was twenty four and
was a former Miss Georgia. So like very much the
beautiful Kelly Kapowski kind of persona. And as I got
to know her, she really kind of gave like I
(07:37):
don't want to necessarily say, like grooming, you know, hints,
but she was like, you know, I'll teach you to
put mascara on, like I'll help you with this, and
then it sort of evolved into you should break up
with your boyfriend like he did.
Speaker 4 (07:54):
He doesn't respect you.
Speaker 5 (07:56):
And so I did actually end up per her guidance,
breaking up with the boyfriend. And then at that time,
she initiated a gay relationship with me.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
WHOA, I don't know that I heard this part Anna, Well, hey,
I mean I wanted to bring something that second part.
Speaker 4 (08:19):
Well, I'm glad you are enjoying it.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
And so you were like literally in high school and
she's she's a femme like you would have never thought
she was gay.
Speaker 5 (08:29):
Oh correct, Yeah. She also had a boyfriend who was
her age. Okay, and so you know, just given the
practicals of what I'm describing to you, I did not
feel that I could talk about this with anyone. I'm seventeen,
so I'm a minor.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Okay, Yeah, sorry, that's terrible.
Speaker 4 (08:49):
She's twenty four.
Speaker 5 (08:50):
And also beyond that, you know, she's like this volunteer
youth leader with this church.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
And position of power, right right.
Speaker 5 (08:59):
Yeah, And so that ended after several months, and I
got a scholarship to play soccer in college, went to
college in Tennessee, and really, from the ages of like
seventeen to nineteen, was in relationships with women, dating women.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
And were you a little scarred because really that was
sort of like a inappropriate relationship, like I didn't take
into account you're a child, basically, I mean, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
So did that leave a mark or were you like
kind of it was all right.
Speaker 5 (09:37):
I you know, now that I'm forty, I can talk
about it, you know, differently. But I'm going to answer
the question as how it felt at the time. Her
mom found was at her house helping her move. So
great segue, Melissa, I'm talking about hermon. Yeah, she found
(09:58):
a note that I had written to this woman, and
you know, she could tell by the note that there
was like romantic connotations to it. Yeah, And so her
mom sat her down and was like, what are you doing?
Like this is a minor, Like you've got to end
this today. And so she did, you know, cold Turkey
was like, I can't talk to you anymore. And so
(10:20):
my response is like I was scarred from the heartbreak
because here I had just been in this sort of
like lackluster two year high school relationship with this guy,
and then I had my whole world blown open by
this beautiful woman who was older and obviously a little
bit of the power dynamic, and then to be stripped
of that. It was just like heartbreak, such heartbreak, And
(10:44):
as you guys know, the fastest way out of heartbreak
is having a community of people around you, friends and
family who can support you and like help see you through.
Speaker 4 (10:54):
The other side. But because I didn't feel that I.
Speaker 5 (10:56):
Could talk about this with anyone, it was a very
isolating time. So thankfully there was the sort of natural
backstop of a I went. I went away to college
and dated girls. But I was approached on my college
campus by a very uh far right wing, hyper evangelical group.
(11:21):
I would say, like Pentecostal leaning. This isn't just your
you know, normal brand of Christianity.
Speaker 4 (11:26):
These are the.
Speaker 5 (11:28):
Sort of much more extreme version. And they were like, hey,
have have you ever like been sad? And I was like, uh,
I've been sad before, exactly exactly, and you know, they
they knew about my sort of dating behavior, and they
(11:50):
just said like, look, you are living in sin and
you are separated from God, and the only path back
to God, and the only way to experience like peace
and joy and love in your heart is to stop
kissing pretty girls and stop cussing.
Speaker 4 (12:12):
And I think that I.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Love how they throw the cussing in with it is
the same thing.
Speaker 4 (12:21):
Yeah, exactly, which is funny.
Speaker 5 (12:23):
I'm like, if I look in the Bible, I don't
know that either of those two things are really addressed,
like cussing or kissing.
Speaker 4 (12:29):
Pretty girls, either here nor there.
Speaker 5 (12:32):
But you know, you kind of have to think about
nineteen year old Anna, like, Okay, why was she so
vulnerable that this sort of messaging came at this impressionable time?
And she was like, okay, I'm all in. And you know,
after tens of thousands of dollars in therapy, I can
you know tell you It's because my parents were both
(12:55):
very busy growing up, Like my mom worked a ton,
and there just weren't a lot of hugs and kisses
and I love yousyballs on you. Yeah, yeah, not a
lot of that. And so if you asked me today like, well,
then how did you fall into a Christian cult? I
(13:16):
would say, like, I am, in my fabric, a very
spiritual person. So I was drawn to the idea of
like connecting with the supernatural and the divine, But I
was also just looking for belonging, you know, like and
in those communities, like there is a lot of belonging.
If I look back at who through my baby showers,
(13:36):
when my kids were born, who my you know, twelve
bridesmaids were, it was all like my cult Christian friends.
And so I think a lot of that had to
do with like, Okay, I tried this romance with a man,
I had this romance with a woman, And these people
who seem to have guidance and direction are telling me
(13:57):
the source of my discontent is separation from God. So
maybe this is the thing. And so yeah, I at
nineteen sort of did a full and got into some
conversion therapy. They obviously got me on that pipeline to
(14:20):
get into conversion therapy. And then I just went really
all in for Jesus. I was like, I'm not going
to date anybody. I'm going to devote the best of
my time, energy, attention, affection, and resources into understanding who
the person of Jesus is and devoting my life to him.
Speaker 4 (14:42):
And so.
Speaker 5 (14:44):
Upon I didn't date anyone for the rest of college
because my heart was just so fascinated by the things
I was learning about Jesus.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
And then with conversion therapy, is there like a physical
element to that or is it a lot of like
shame talk therapy shame.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
I hear about, like been doing like shock there?
Speaker 1 (15:05):
Yeah I can't.
Speaker 5 (15:08):
Yeah, it's funny, I did, you know, no spoiler alert.
But I did marry a man later and we were
married for ten years, and for the last two years
of our marriage, I did conversion therapy again to try
to estavage the marriage. So I have been in a
conversion therapy.
Speaker 4 (15:28):
And yes, there are those sort of.
Speaker 5 (15:33):
Modalities like you described, but at its core, my experience
is that they are breeding as much self doubt in
you as possible. And so what this looked like in
my situation was them asking, like, have you ever ever
(15:55):
kissed a guy, been intimate with a guy and felt around,
felt excited? And you know, I'm sitting there, I'm like, uh, well, yeah,
you know one time.
Speaker 4 (16:08):
In seventh grade I kissed a boy one time and
he looked like a girl. Yeah. I was gonna say that,
like he was like a hairless dolphin.
Speaker 5 (16:21):
Because you were in seventh grade and I kissed him
and it was the first time I ever kissed anyone.
So it's like the first time I'm making this sort
of romantic contact with another human being.
Speaker 4 (16:32):
And yes, I was aroused by that. And then the conversion.
Speaker 5 (16:37):
Therapist says, ah, see, you're not gay, You're bisexual. So
it's like it's like this path of self doubt and
obviously you have all the religious language that it's wrapped
around of like you can't trust the flesh, like you
can't trust your body because the body is sinful, and
(16:59):
we have to ask God to change those desires. So
that was more my experience. Thankfully, I was able to
dodge the shock treatment that you mentioned.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
And it is like true, like if you plant the
seed of doubt, they're just basically everyone's been turned on
by a guy at some point, like I I feel like,
I mean, maybe the few exceptions, but it's like once
you gave them that little bit of information, they can
just lean into that for twenty years exactly.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
Yeah. Yeah. And so at the end of my.
Speaker 5 (17:33):
College career, I took the LSAT and did really well
and was all set up to go to law school and.
Speaker 4 (17:42):
The church I was.
Speaker 5 (17:42):
Working with at the time was like you should go
and do mission work and.
Speaker 4 (17:50):
Like overseas mission work.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
And so.
Speaker 5 (17:54):
Again I was working with a very or I was
part of a very extreme church which of holds this
idea of one of the last things Jesus is recorded
of said having said in the Bible is that when
everyone on the earth here's the Gospel, then the end
will come.
Speaker 4 (18:14):
So like, you know, earth will be restored everyone.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
I know, just let this shift down Jesus.
Speaker 5 (18:21):
Well, yeah, and so you know, most of the world
has been evangelized, like they have access especially today with
like digital technology, like if anyone has the ability to
use Google, they can find the Bible.
Speaker 4 (18:35):
So it's sort of their work is really restricted.
Speaker 5 (18:39):
Amongst these people groups that I would say are like
kind of in quotes like the worst parts of the world.
And so a lot of their work is like in Afghanistan.
And in my case, when I graduated in two thousand
and seven, they asked if I was interested in going
to Iraq and so this nuts I now, like what yeah,
(19:04):
So if you remember the climate in two thousand and seven,
it was George W. Bush and there was you know,
the war on Terror that was happening in Iraq, and
so my church and missions organization received an invite from
like a basically like a town mayor in northern Iraq saying.
Speaker 4 (19:26):
Like, hey, we are open to.
Speaker 5 (19:29):
Having people come and teach English as a foreign language.
And so that's how we came into Iraq, was teaching English.
And this is like a very common way for missionaries
to enter foreign nations and get thesis. And so two
thousand and seven, two thousand and eight, I was living
thirty five miles from the border of Iran sort of
(19:50):
doing this Bible smuggling, church planting activity and trying to
proselytize Muslims and so so I actually like had a
really positive experience. And what I mean by that is
just like, you know, I was a sorority girl in college,
(20:12):
and everybody went and did post college things. And here
I was like living in this exciting sort of like
hot politically, culturally hot place doing work that I had
been convinced was like the most eternally impactful work that
you can do, and I'm getting to do it in
(20:33):
like a culture that not many other people have been
exposed to.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
And so and is it working, Like You're going talking
to these people and first of all, how do you
talk to them because they speak a different language?
Speaker 1 (20:45):
And then second of all, is it working?
Speaker 3 (20:47):
Is it?
Speaker 2 (20:47):
Like one in twenty the light bulb goes off and
they're kind of like, tell me more or is it?
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Like how does that look?
Speaker 4 (20:54):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (20:55):
I would, I mean now that I'm on the other
side of it, no, it is not.
Speaker 4 (21:00):
Oh no, I you know, now.
Speaker 5 (21:03):
At forty years old, I'm like, this is very harmful
work because the countries I was living in and working
in the you know, if I convince a Mussle moment
and a radical Islamic nation to leave her religion and
become a Christian, they're actually very serious legal consequences for her,
not just with her government, but with her family, you know,
(21:26):
to preserve the honor of their Muslim family.
Speaker 4 (21:28):
They can go to extreme measures to do that.
Speaker 5 (21:31):
Yeah, and so so at the time, like if you
interviewed me at the time, under my brainwashing, I would
be like, yes.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
It's for Jesus, It's the right.
Speaker 5 (21:42):
Eternal yeah, damnation exactly, Like this is so powerful, Like
what greater cause could I be giving my life to?
And you know, now today I can look back and
be like, yeah, that person like demonstrated interest in our
message because like they thought we would provide them with
employment or money or like if you said to America, yeah,
(22:04):
any any number of you know, personal motives that they
might have had.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
How were you getting paid? Like how do you live
over there and make money?
Speaker 4 (22:14):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (22:14):
So I was employed by a university in northern Iraq
and taught uh teughl, like teaching English as a foreign language.
But then you're also asked to raise financial support as
a missionary, like from your community in America. So maybe
someone pledges twenty five dollars a month, someone pledges one
hundred dollars a month to like support the work of
(22:36):
God abroad.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
So basically, all your friends in Atlanta are getting letters
for money is all what I'm wearying.
Speaker 5 (22:45):
I would say, Atlanta, and like friends from college in
Tennessee got friends in Texas, and it's sort of dispersed
amongst many. But at the end of my time in Iraq,
you know, I got to be a part of of
some humanitarian efforts that were meaningful that weren't necessarily like
(23:06):
gospel related.
Speaker 4 (23:08):
And so one of the.
Speaker 5 (23:09):
Leaders at our church approached me and was like, hey,
I know you want to go to law school and
like you're passionate about that, but you know, you have
an opportunity to like you know in quotes, like administer
justice on the front lines and the nations, and it
doesn't always like helping people experience justice doesn't always look
(23:30):
like being in a courtroom, Like would you consider being
a long term overseas missionary? And because I enjoyed the adventure, yeah,
I was like okay, yeah, like law school will always
be there. And so with our church you go and
take like a nine month training course where they do
(23:51):
like a lot of like cross cultural training like security training,
language training, and so on, and then you can return
back overseas for a longer period of time. And so
I went to Cult Capital USA, Waco, Texas.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Oh boy, that should have been your first red flag.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Yeah, exactly, the statues of David Koresh.
Speaker 4 (24:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (24:17):
I mean, like if someone's asking you, you know, to
risk your life and you know, a volatile nation to
share the gospel of Jesus and they want to train
you to do it in Waco, Yeah, it should be like.
Speaker 4 (24:29):
Puting the pieces together.
Speaker 5 (24:30):
But I went to Waco and in this class there
was a guy.
Speaker 4 (24:38):
Who I was a college athlete. He was a college athlete.
Speaker 5 (24:43):
I wanted to return to like being a missionary overseas,
like preferably in the Middle East. He had interest in
being in the Middle East and doing that same work.
And so there was a lot of like pressure from
our pastors for us to date.
Speaker 4 (25:03):
And so obviously the main Christian babies.
Speaker 5 (25:08):
Yeah, yeah, obviously the person I'm talking about is my
now ex husband.
Speaker 4 (25:15):
But I think that our.
Speaker 5 (25:17):
Pastors saw like, Okay, these are two really like high capacity,
dynamic individuals, like we can get a lot of mileage
out of them for our agenda. Yeah and yeah, and
so we uh started dating, and I just want to
provide the context, like, uh, this is not normal dating.
Speaker 4 (25:38):
This is like cult Christian dating.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
So side hugs, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 5 (25:44):
No, but really we dated for twelve months before we
had our first kiss, and we did not kiss until
he asked me to marry him. So we dated for
a year and he was like William me and I
was like yes, and then we had our first kiss,
and I just kind of like, I want to hop
(26:07):
into that moment because when we were dating all that time,
like six months in we started holding hands and you know, yeah,
we did like the interlocking, you know, finger handhold, and
I remember it so clearly, like I can tell you
exactly which road I was on in Waco. I can
(26:30):
tell you exactly what his DODGERM pickup truck was like.
When he held my hand. My first thought was, I
think this is what holding my brother's hand.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
Would feel like. Okay.
Speaker 5 (26:45):
I love how Ali responds lit a last.
Speaker 4 (26:49):
I mean I've been there. I've been like this feels
like kissing my brother.
Speaker 3 (26:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (26:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (26:54):
And so it's just interesting because it's like, you know,
we went on a lot of like great dates. I
couldn't recount with him to you, but that is so
clear for me. And I think it's because that was
a moment where it wasn't brainwashed Anna. It was really
authentic Anna saying like, hey, like maybe this isn't it,
(27:15):
baby girl.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Yeah maybe yeah.
Speaker 5 (27:17):
Maybe all of this isn't But there's so much momentum
behind it.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
You're into your hormones.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
I mean, you're at an age where it's very appropriate
to be starting to have sexual feelings. So if he's
the thing that they've put in front of you, and
you're in Waco where there's no other option, period, hard stop.
I could see where it gets kind of just just
projected onto him of like, yeah, I guess I can
do this, Like.
Speaker 5 (27:43):
And this was two thousand and ten, Okay, So I
mean we're talking about a very a very different period
in time.
Speaker 4 (27:53):
And I had actually been single from the ages.
Speaker 5 (27:56):
Of nineteen to now twenty five when I was dating him,
you know, six years of just living the romance with Jesus,
and so all of that to say, I did have
a lot of doubt about him, and I brought that
to our pastors, and I was like, do you really
think we're a good fit, Like does this really make sense?
(28:18):
And like, I have doubts about this part of compatibility.
Speaker 4 (28:23):
But I never had the thought maybe.
Speaker 5 (28:25):
I don't like him because I'm gay, you know, like
because in my mind I was healed from that, like
Jesus had corrected that in.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
My life, not even in your wheelhouse. That can't be
right right right, Like.
Speaker 4 (28:36):
That was something that was dead in the grave.
Speaker 5 (28:37):
And so I kept bringing it up to our pastors
and the response I got was kind of like, yeah, yeah,
we understand that you don't really click with him, but
when you go.
Speaker 4 (28:48):
To God, like do you have a vision for his life?
Speaker 5 (28:51):
Like when you bring your concern to God, like do
you feel like you guys could have a family together,
a life together, And so I kind of want to
touch on that. Again, it's the same thing as the
conversion therapy. It's the self doubt, like yeah, and I
guess you're confused, you don't know, but God knows.
Speaker 4 (29:09):
Go ask God what you should do, and obviously God's
going to.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Say he's Mary the Christian boy.
Speaker 4 (29:15):
Yeah yeah, yeah yeah, So.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Obviously God's gonna say.
Speaker 4 (29:21):
Yeah, yeah. So we you know, got engaged after a
year of dating.
Speaker 5 (29:26):
We had our kiss and very similar. It was kind
of like I didn't feel like the same thing as
the handholding of like wow, this really feels like my brother,
but I had the feeling of like I think I
was supposed to feel something, Yeah, like I waited twelve
months to like kiss this guy. He bought the ring,
he asked me, we kissed.
Speaker 4 (29:48):
I think I was supposed.
Speaker 5 (29:49):
To feel something, and so in order to exist as
like a closeted gay person, which you know again I
wasn't really closeted. I thought that part of my life
was done. You really have to divorce, like your head
and your heart from one another. It really is like
a dissociation. And I would say, you know, since coming out,
(30:11):
that has been my work is like reintegrating mind and
body and soul to all find my authentic self.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
But and that's so common even for I mean it
for you, it's so magnified because even like when our
listeners coming out later, you've been married to men for
twenty years, having sex with men, you know, begrudgingly you
dissociate and then you try to be with a woman and.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
You're like you said, you're divorced.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
From I don't even know what, Like, I don't know
how I feel anymore because I have for twenty years
shut it down.
Speaker 4 (30:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Yeah, so so relatable to so many people.
Speaker 5 (30:50):
So we only had a five month engagement because our
church typically has quick engagements. So we got married August
twenty eleven, and four weeks after we got married, our
pastors approached us and they were like, hey, we've been
talking about it, and we've been seeking the counsel of
(31:11):
the Lord, and we really feel like you two should
go and start a church in Benghazi, Libya.
Speaker 4 (31:19):
And so again.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
They like have a hit out on you, Like, yeah,
the world.
Speaker 5 (31:29):
I think that goes back to their theology of like,
you know, if you can go to the worst places
in the world where no Christians exist, then everyone has
heard this gospel, and Jesus will return and wipe everyone's
tears away.
Speaker 4 (31:41):
There'll be no more pain.
Speaker 5 (31:42):
And so you gotta you kind of got to follow
the geopolitical climate of like, Okay, two thousand and seven,
nobody wants to go to Iraq and do this, twenty eleven,
nobody wants to go to Benghazi and do this. And
so because we were like obedient, god fearing Christians and
we had our you know, implicit trust in our church authority,
(32:02):
we did that.
Speaker 4 (32:03):
And so.
Speaker 5 (32:05):
The security situation worsened in Benghazi. And so we actually
lived on the Libyan Tunisian border for a year, fully
immersed in Arabic so that we could both gain fluency
and over time, like the US embassy pulled out, the
UK embassy pulled out, all foreign investment pulled out of Libya,
(32:30):
and so we were just kind of in this standstill
of like, okay, do we keep trying to live and
exist in Libya or should we go to another Arabic
speaking nation and do this same work elsewhere? And so
we decided to do the latter because I finally said
to our pastors, like, look, I am willing to die
(32:52):
for Jesus, you guys know that, but I'm not willing
to die just because I hold a Western passport. And
we were seeing people who worked in oil and gas
who were just being executed in Libya just for being Western.
And so at that point we decided to move to Oman.
(33:13):
It's a country next to Saudi Arabia and Yemen, and
so in living in Oman, and.
Speaker 4 (33:22):
We were there about five years.
Speaker 5 (33:25):
That's really where I sort of began my journey back
to myself. And I'll just share this last juicy part
and then if there's any followup questions and I'm happy
to answer them. But I ended up playing on the
women's national basketball team for Oman, and don't be impressed.
(33:46):
They were like as good as a high school girls team.
It's a country four million people, The talent pool was small.
I was big fish in a small pond. And on
that team was someone from the royal family who was
just gorgeous and she really took an interest in me.
(34:07):
And I was just excited to have an Omani friend
who also like listened to Cold Play you know, and
like yeah, yeah and so and obviously, you know, being
from the royal family, like she looked like a Kardashian.
She had a driver, a maid, a butler, I mean
all of these things. And my husband and I started
(34:30):
sharing the Gospel with her and her husband, and we
were excited because we were like, wow, you know, we're
going to see like someone in the Royal family turned their.
Speaker 4 (34:37):
Heart to Jesus. You know, this is like dreams missionary.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (34:42):
And so they invited us to go to Bali, you know,
to their villa and Bali, as one does. And so
they asked us on a Sunday morning and Sunday evening,
we were on a plane to Bali. And when we
got there, her husband as said to my husband like, hey,
let's go rent some scooters so we can get around
(35:03):
the island on scooters. And she and I were in
like the plunge pool and at the villa.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
And Bali, and I like where this is going, guys.
Speaker 5 (35:16):
Yeah, she swam across the pool to me and again
like I never felt like, oh, I'm attracted to her.
Speaker 4 (35:27):
That's why I want to spend time with her, because
that part of me is dead.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
Yeah, And she swims.
Speaker 5 (35:31):
Across the pool and just wraps her arms and legs
around me and full.
Speaker 4 (35:37):
On kisses me.
Speaker 5 (35:38):
Whoa yeah, And so at this at this point, I've
been married like seven years to a man.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
You know, wait a.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Minute, doesn't she know you're like a hardcore Christian?
Speaker 5 (35:46):
Well yeah, but I mean she's a hardcore Muslim you know, yeah, yeah,
religious masks, but damn. You know, at this point, I
had been having seven years of orgasm less sex with
my husband, and our cult said to us, like, you
should never deny your husband's sex when he requests it,
(36:08):
because it can be harmful for their confidence. They can
feel rejected. And so they were like give the caveat
like these course, you know if you have a baby,
like you don't have to for six weeks, but like
it's good to never say no. So it's like I've
been having this obligatory intercourse and then this you know,
Kardashian looking woman.
Speaker 4 (36:28):
Yeah, and when I tell you, it was.
Speaker 5 (36:31):
Like a scene from a movie where somebody just the
helmet that has kept their head locked down and brainwashed
broke off. I mean it was like going from black
and white to full color, Like it all kind of
clicked together.
Speaker 3 (36:48):
Okay, Wow, that's an amazing story and there's so much
more to hear, and we're going to have you back
on to wrap this up. And I think like this
is a great little cliffinger he.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
Up, Hager.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
All right, well, we'll see you next week Anna for more.
Speaker 4 (37:03):
Yeah, thank you guys for having me. I look forward
to it.
Speaker 5 (37:05):
Thank you, all right, take care bye.
Speaker 4 (37:11):
I want to support the Lesbian Chronicles podcast.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
Rate us and write a review on Apple podcast or Spotify.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
We love listener feedback.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
If you'd like to share your story, email us at
Melissa and Ali at gmail dot com.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
That's Melissa M. E. L I. S A and Ali
A L.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
L I at gmail dot com. Or follow us on
Instagram at Lesbian Chronicles
I'm Ali.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I came out after twenty years of marriage and I
have three kids.
Speaker 3 (00:09):
I'm Melissa and I have two kids, and I came
out at thirty seven after an eleven year marriage.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
This podcast is about coming out later and the struggles
and victories.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
That come with it.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
When coming out feels like the end of the world,
but it's really just the beginning.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
This is the Lesbian Chronicles.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Welcome to the Lesbian Chronicles. Welcome. So you're in the
throes of it, I am man.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
I've got a few more days until I close on
my new house and both houses are closing the same
day and got to move and it's a lot. I'd
in the midst of packing and trying to like do it efficiently.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
But Dan, aren't you glad though that it's to me
the stressful part is like waiting for the closing.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Yeah, and like that's all like coming together. But every
email I get with like some sort of like sign
this for the closing or like this is how much
money cash to close, I'm like.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Oh do I have it? Like I know, I know,
I want.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
To throw up a little bit.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
There's always like an eleventh hour like scary thing, like
I did the same thing where I was closing on
both for this house in the same day, and something
happened where I couldn't close on mine yet, and so
the moving trucks who I had already hired, and the
truck was full, and I was I mean, I was
planning to sleep here.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
They had to just park in the driveway.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
And she agreed to like let my stuff just sit
overnight and wait for the closing because they wouldn't let
me move in till it closed. And it was like
I'm at a hotel and I'm like, this is like
super fucking stressful, Like.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
What if it is to close and now I've got
this I don't know.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
I think when you're self employed, everything is like an
eleventh hour Oh fuck m h.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
I know right now I'm like not spending any money. Yeah,
I know they're going to look at my bank account.
And then the other thing that always freaks me out
is a wiring instruction, and there is something so nerve
wrecked I know about like what if I get a
number wrong?
Speaker 1 (02:12):
I know, what if I get a number wrong money to.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Some like you know, overseas bank account or right, I
don't know.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
I think the same shit every time, it does feel
kind of archaic, right mm hmm.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
I'm like, we don't have a better method to do this.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
I know, like what if I get a number wrong?
So yeah, it's very very true.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Well, I'm super excited about our guests. And what's wild
is we both have the same idea and so when
I asked her, you were like I've already been thinking
about her, Like that's amazing. So anyway, Anna Christy, welcome
to Lesbian Chronicles.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
Thank you so much. I'm really excited to be here
with you both.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Yeah, well, your story like captivated me at we had
dinner a few months ago, I guess and I literally said,
I feel bad like I ignored everyone else.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
At the time.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
I was like completely dialed in on Anna Christy, Like
the I was just even when she went to the bathroom,
I'm like, we're all just gonna have to wait, guys
until she gets back and she can finish the story.
Like it was so good, Like I just your history
is so fascinating to me.
Speaker 4 (03:16):
Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 5 (03:19):
A lot of a lot of adventure and a lot
of trauma and a lot of excitement packed into uh
the first four decades of life. So like I said,
I'm excited to chat with you guys today.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Start a little bit like, I think it's interesting too,
Like your upbringing was here, right, so yeah, and kind
of a traditional, like pretty solid upbringing like start there,
I guess because to me that's even interesting.
Speaker 4 (03:45):
Yeah. So I grew up here in the Atlanta area, and.
Speaker 5 (03:52):
I had an older brother and kind of just from
the get go was a tomboy like and I don't
know how much of that had to do with my
innate gayness or how much I just looked up to
my big brother and wanted to be like him and
participate in everything he was doing. But any sort of
like Christmas present I requested was like a skateboard guitar,
(04:16):
you know, really kind of more gay leaning, and even
in silly ways, like in middle school, I begged my
parents to get me my own bowling ball. You know,
it's like what kind of middle school girl wants her
own bowling ball? So, you know, as I look back,
just even at family photo albums, I can see like,
(04:37):
oh gosh, this was this was always in the fabric.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
But as I started to kind.
Speaker 5 (04:44):
Of be exposed to more pop culture type things, I
can even look back and see that like, very early on,
I had interest or.
Speaker 4 (04:53):
Attraction in women.
Speaker 5 (04:55):
And what I mean by that is like, you know,
it was the eighties, which anytime my youngest son sees something.
Speaker 4 (05:04):
Old, he's like, wow, I bet that's from the eighties.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Oh my god? Can I interrupt the second how my
son said, ask me about when Pokemon started? He was like,
that was back in the nineteen hundreds, right, Oh my god,
Like get out of my car.
Speaker 4 (05:19):
Whoa?
Speaker 1 (05:21):
What does it do about things like that?
Speaker 2 (05:22):
That when you go back to look like we're going
to watch Cocktail tonight, the movie with Tom Cruise, and
I was showing read the trailer and it does look
like it's.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
From the fifties.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
I'm like, yeah, and this is the eighties, but okay,
go ahead.
Speaker 5 (05:37):
Yeah, And so like being exposed to pop culture, which
I guess like my first earliest memories were the great
American classic Saved by the Bell, and so many of
my friends were like, whoa you know like Zach Morris,
you know a C. Slater And I just remember at
a young age being like, but have.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
You seen.
Speaker 4 (06:03):
Have you seen her? Like the Queen of Bayside?
Speaker 1 (06:06):
She is? She was?
Speaker 3 (06:08):
Yeah, Jesse comes along and I'm like I kind of
want to be Jesse.
Speaker 5 (06:13):
Yeah not Jesse, right, And so I think there's like
that time of like, okay, do I want to be her?
Am I attracted to her? But you know, I knew
that I was a tomboy and very athletic, and I
knew that that's not like I was not going to
be the Queen of Bayside cheerleader like I was. Just
(06:33):
I found her alluring. And so fast forward, I in
high school dated a guy for two years, like had
a very serious boyfriend, and I was invited to go
with a local church here in the Atlanta area on
(06:55):
a ski trip. This is my senior year of high school.
I was seventeen, And for me, I'm like, yeah, sure,
Like you know this youth group, you know they're going
to talk about God, but like we get to go
to winter Park and go skiing like this rules. And
so there was a female youth leader who was a
(07:16):
part of that church, and she was twenty four and
was a former Miss Georgia. So like very much the
beautiful Kelly Kapowski kind of persona. And as I got
to know her, she really kind of gave like I
(07:37):
don't want to necessarily say, like grooming, you know, hints,
but she was like, you know, I'll teach you to
put mascara on, like I'll help you with this, and
then it sort of evolved into you should break up
with your boyfriend like he did.
Speaker 4 (07:54):
He doesn't respect you.
Speaker 5 (07:56):
And so I did actually end up per her guidance,
breaking up with the boyfriend. And then at that time,
she initiated a gay relationship with me.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
WHOA, I don't know that I heard this part Anna, Well, hey,
I mean I wanted to bring something that second part.
Speaker 4 (08:19):
Well, I'm glad you are enjoying it.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
And so you were like literally in high school and
she's she's a femme like you would have never thought
she was gay.
Speaker 5 (08:29):
Oh correct, Yeah. She also had a boyfriend who was
her age. Okay, and so you know, just given the
practicals of what I'm describing to you, I did not
feel that I could talk about this with anyone. I'm seventeen,
so I'm a minor.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Okay, Yeah, sorry, that's terrible.
Speaker 4 (08:49):
She's twenty four.
Speaker 5 (08:50):
And also beyond that, you know, she's like this volunteer
youth leader with this church.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
And position of power, right right.
Speaker 5 (08:59):
Yeah, And so that ended after several months, and I
got a scholarship to play soccer in college, went to
college in Tennessee, and really, from the ages of like
seventeen to nineteen, was in relationships with women, dating women.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
And were you a little scarred because really that was
sort of like a inappropriate relationship, like I didn't take
into account you're a child, basically, I mean, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
So did that leave a mark or were you like
kind of it was all right.
Speaker 5 (09:37):
I you know, now that I'm forty, I can talk
about it, you know, differently. But I'm going to answer
the question as how it felt at the time. Her
mom found was at her house helping her move. So
great segue, Melissa, I'm talking about hermon. Yeah, she found
(09:58):
a note that I had written to this woman, and
you know, she could tell by the note that there
was like romantic connotations to it. Yeah, And so her
mom sat her down and was like, what are you doing?
Like this is a minor, Like you've got to end
this today. And so she did, you know, cold Turkey
was like, I can't talk to you anymore. And so
(10:20):
my response is like I was scarred from the heartbreak
because here I had just been in this sort of
like lackluster two year high school relationship with this guy,
and then I had my whole world blown open by
this beautiful woman who was older and obviously a little
bit of the power dynamic, and then to be stripped
of that. It was just like heartbreak, such heartbreak, And
(10:44):
as you guys know, the fastest way out of heartbreak
is having a community of people around you, friends and
family who can support you and like help see you through.
Speaker 4 (10:54):
The other side. But because I didn't feel that I.
Speaker 5 (10:56):
Could talk about this with anyone, it was a very
isolating time. So thankfully there was the sort of natural
backstop of a I went. I went away to college
and dated girls. But I was approached on my college
campus by a very uh far right wing, hyper evangelical group.
(11:21):
I would say, like Pentecostal leaning. This isn't just your
you know, normal brand of Christianity.
Speaker 4 (11:26):
These are the.
Speaker 5 (11:28):
Sort of much more extreme version. And they were like, hey,
have have you ever like been sad? And I was like, uh,
I've been sad before, exactly exactly, and you know, they
they knew about my sort of dating behavior, and they
(11:50):
just said like, look, you are living in sin and
you are separated from God, and the only path back
to God, and the only way to experience like peace
and joy and love in your heart is to stop
kissing pretty girls and stop cussing.
Speaker 4 (12:12):
And I think that I.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Love how they throw the cussing in with it is
the same thing.
Speaker 4 (12:21):
Yeah, exactly, which is funny.
Speaker 5 (12:23):
I'm like, if I look in the Bible, I don't
know that either of those two things are really addressed,
like cussing or kissing.
Speaker 4 (12:29):
Pretty girls, either here nor there.
Speaker 5 (12:32):
But you know, you kind of have to think about
nineteen year old Anna, like, Okay, why was she so
vulnerable that this sort of messaging came at this impressionable time?
And she was like, okay, I'm all in. And you know,
after tens of thousands of dollars in therapy, I can
you know tell you It's because my parents were both
(12:55):
very busy growing up, Like my mom worked a ton,
and there just weren't a lot of hugs and kisses
and I love yousyballs on you. Yeah, yeah, not a
lot of that. And so if you asked me today like, well,
then how did you fall into a Christian cult? I
(13:16):
would say, like, I am, in my fabric, a very
spiritual person. So I was drawn to the idea of
like connecting with the supernatural and the divine, But I
was also just looking for belonging, you know, like and
in those communities, like there is a lot of belonging.
If I look back at who through my baby showers,
(13:36):
when my kids were born, who my you know, twelve
bridesmaids were, it was all like my cult Christian friends.
And so I think a lot of that had to
do with like, Okay, I tried this romance with a man,
I had this romance with a woman, And these people
who seem to have guidance and direction are telling me
(13:57):
the source of my discontent is separation from God. So
maybe this is the thing. And so yeah, I at
nineteen sort of did a full and got into some
conversion therapy. They obviously got me on that pipeline to
(14:20):
get into conversion therapy. And then I just went really
all in for Jesus. I was like, I'm not going
to date anybody. I'm going to devote the best of
my time, energy, attention, affection, and resources into understanding who
the person of Jesus is and devoting my life to him.
Speaker 4 (14:42):
And so.
Speaker 5 (14:44):
Upon I didn't date anyone for the rest of college
because my heart was just so fascinated by the things
I was learning about Jesus.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
And then with conversion therapy, is there like a physical
element to that or is it a lot of like
shame talk therapy shame.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
I hear about, like been doing like shock there?
Speaker 1 (15:05):
Yeah I can't.
Speaker 5 (15:08):
Yeah, it's funny, I did, you know, no spoiler alert.
But I did marry a man later and we were
married for ten years, and for the last two years
of our marriage, I did conversion therapy again to try
to estavage the marriage. So I have been in a
conversion therapy.
Speaker 4 (15:28):
And yes, there are those sort of.
Speaker 5 (15:33):
Modalities like you described, but at its core, my experience
is that they are breeding as much self doubt in
you as possible. And so what this looked like in
my situation was them asking, like, have you ever ever
(15:55):
kissed a guy, been intimate with a guy and felt around,
felt excited? And you know, I'm sitting there, I'm like, uh, well, yeah,
you know one time.
Speaker 4 (16:08):
In seventh grade I kissed a boy one time and
he looked like a girl. Yeah. I was gonna say that,
like he was like a hairless dolphin.
Speaker 5 (16:21):
Because you were in seventh grade and I kissed him
and it was the first time I ever kissed anyone.
So it's like the first time I'm making this sort
of romantic contact with another human being.
Speaker 4 (16:32):
And yes, I was aroused by that. And then the conversion.
Speaker 5 (16:37):
Therapist says, ah, see, you're not gay, You're bisexual. So
it's like it's like this path of self doubt and
obviously you have all the religious language that it's wrapped
around of like you can't trust the flesh, like you
can't trust your body because the body is sinful, and
(16:59):
we have to ask God to change those desires. So
that was more my experience. Thankfully, I was able to
dodge the shock treatment that you mentioned.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
And it is like true, like if you plant the
seed of doubt, they're just basically everyone's been turned on
by a guy at some point, like I I feel like,
I mean, maybe the few exceptions, but it's like once
you gave them that little bit of information, they can
just lean into that for twenty years exactly.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
Yeah. Yeah. And so at the end of my.
Speaker 5 (17:33):
College career, I took the LSAT and did really well
and was all set up to go to law school and.
Speaker 4 (17:42):
The church I was.
Speaker 5 (17:42):
Working with at the time was like you should go
and do mission work and.
Speaker 4 (17:50):
Like overseas mission work.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
And so.
Speaker 5 (17:54):
Again I was working with a very or I was
part of a very extreme church which of holds this
idea of one of the last things Jesus is recorded
of said having said in the Bible is that when
everyone on the earth here's the Gospel, then the end
will come.
Speaker 4 (18:14):
So like, you know, earth will be restored everyone.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
I know, just let this shift down Jesus.
Speaker 5 (18:21):
Well, yeah, and so you know, most of the world
has been evangelized, like they have access especially today with
like digital technology, like if anyone has the ability to
use Google, they can find the Bible.
Speaker 4 (18:35):
So it's sort of their work is really restricted.
Speaker 5 (18:39):
Amongst these people groups that I would say are like
kind of in quotes like the worst parts of the world.
And so a lot of their work is like in Afghanistan.
And in my case, when I graduated in two thousand
and seven, they asked if I was interested in going
to Iraq and so this nuts I now, like what yeah,
(19:04):
So if you remember the climate in two thousand and seven,
it was George W. Bush and there was you know,
the war on Terror that was happening in Iraq, and
so my church and missions organization received an invite from
like a basically like a town mayor in northern Iraq saying.
Speaker 4 (19:26):
Like, hey, we are open to.
Speaker 5 (19:29):
Having people come and teach English as a foreign language.
And so that's how we came into Iraq, was teaching English.
And this is like a very common way for missionaries
to enter foreign nations and get thesis. And so two
thousand and seven, two thousand and eight, I was living
thirty five miles from the border of Iran sort of
(19:50):
doing this Bible smuggling, church planting activity and trying to
proselytize Muslims and so so I actually like had a
really positive experience. And what I mean by that is
just like, you know, I was a sorority girl in college,
(20:12):
and everybody went and did post college things. And here
I was like living in this exciting sort of like
hot politically, culturally hot place doing work that I had
been convinced was like the most eternally impactful work that
you can do, and I'm getting to do it in
(20:33):
like a culture that not many other people have been
exposed to.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
And so and is it working, Like You're going talking
to these people and first of all, how do you
talk to them because they speak a different language?
Speaker 1 (20:45):
And then second of all, is it working?
Speaker 3 (20:47):
Is it?
Speaker 2 (20:47):
Like one in twenty the light bulb goes off and
they're kind of like, tell me more or is it?
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Like how does that look?
Speaker 4 (20:54):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (20:55):
I would, I mean now that I'm on the other
side of it, no, it is not.
Speaker 4 (21:00):
Oh no, I you know, now.
Speaker 5 (21:03):
At forty years old, I'm like, this is very harmful
work because the countries I was living in and working
in the you know, if I convince a Mussle moment
and a radical Islamic nation to leave her religion and
become a Christian, they're actually very serious legal consequences for her,
not just with her government, but with her family, you know,
(21:26):
to preserve the honor of their Muslim family.
Speaker 4 (21:28):
They can go to extreme measures to do that.
Speaker 5 (21:31):
Yeah, and so so at the time, like if you
interviewed me at the time, under my brainwashing, I would
be like, yes.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
It's for Jesus, It's the right.
Speaker 5 (21:42):
Eternal yeah, damnation exactly, Like this is so powerful, Like
what greater cause could I be giving my life to?
And you know, now today I can look back and
be like, yeah, that person like demonstrated interest in our
message because like they thought we would provide them with
employment or money or like if you said to America, yeah,
(22:04):
any any number of you know, personal motives that they
might have had.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
How were you getting paid? Like how do you live
over there and make money?
Speaker 4 (22:14):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (22:14):
So I was employed by a university in northern Iraq
and taught uh teughl, like teaching English as a foreign language.
But then you're also asked to raise financial support as
a missionary, like from your community in America. So maybe
someone pledges twenty five dollars a month, someone pledges one
hundred dollars a month to like support the work of
(22:36):
God abroad.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
So basically, all your friends in Atlanta are getting letters
for money is all what I'm wearying.
Speaker 5 (22:45):
I would say, Atlanta, and like friends from college in
Tennessee got friends in Texas, and it's sort of dispersed
amongst many. But at the end of my time in Iraq,
you know, I got to be a part of of
some humanitarian efforts that were meaningful that weren't necessarily like
(23:06):
gospel related.
Speaker 4 (23:08):
And so one of the.
Speaker 5 (23:09):
Leaders at our church approached me and was like, hey,
I know you want to go to law school and
like you're passionate about that, but you know, you have
an opportunity to like you know in quotes, like administer
justice on the front lines and the nations, and it
doesn't always like helping people experience justice doesn't always look
(23:30):
like being in a courtroom, Like would you consider being
a long term overseas missionary? And because I enjoyed the adventure, yeah,
I was like okay, yeah, like law school will always
be there. And so with our church you go and
take like a nine month training course where they do
(23:51):
like a lot of like cross cultural training like security training,
language training, and so on, and then you can return
back overseas for a longer period of time. And so
I went to Cult Capital USA, Waco, Texas.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Oh boy, that should have been your first red flag.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Yeah, exactly, the statues of David Koresh.
Speaker 4 (24:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (24:17):
I mean, like if someone's asking you, you know, to
risk your life and you know, a volatile nation to
share the gospel of Jesus and they want to train
you to do it in Waco, Yeah, it should be like.
Speaker 4 (24:29):
Puting the pieces together.
Speaker 5 (24:30):
But I went to Waco and in this class there
was a guy.
Speaker 4 (24:38):
Who I was a college athlete. He was a college athlete.
Speaker 5 (24:43):
I wanted to return to like being a missionary overseas,
like preferably in the Middle East. He had interest in
being in the Middle East and doing that same work.
And so there was a lot of like pressure from
our pastors for us to date.
Speaker 4 (25:03):
And so obviously the main Christian babies.
Speaker 5 (25:08):
Yeah, yeah, obviously the person I'm talking about is my
now ex husband.
Speaker 4 (25:15):
But I think that our.
Speaker 5 (25:17):
Pastors saw like, Okay, these are two really like high capacity,
dynamic individuals, like we can get a lot of mileage
out of them for our agenda. Yeah and yeah, and
so we uh started dating, and I just want to
provide the context, like, uh, this is not normal dating.
Speaker 4 (25:38):
This is like cult Christian dating.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
So side hugs, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 5 (25:44):
No, but really we dated for twelve months before we
had our first kiss, and we did not kiss until
he asked me to marry him. So we dated for
a year and he was like William me and I
was like yes, and then we had our first kiss,
and I just kind of like, I want to hop
(26:07):
into that moment because when we were dating all that time,
like six months in we started holding hands and you know, yeah,
we did like the interlocking, you know, finger handhold, and
I remember it so clearly, like I can tell you
exactly which road I was on in Waco. I can
(26:30):
tell you exactly what his DODGERM pickup truck was like.
When he held my hand. My first thought was, I
think this is what holding my brother's hand.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
Would feel like. Okay.
Speaker 5 (26:45):
I love how Ali responds lit a last.
Speaker 4 (26:49):
I mean I've been there. I've been like this feels
like kissing my brother.
Speaker 3 (26:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (26:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (26:54):
And so it's just interesting because it's like, you know,
we went on a lot of like great dates. I
couldn't recount with him to you, but that is so
clear for me. And I think it's because that was
a moment where it wasn't brainwashed Anna. It was really
authentic Anna saying like, hey, like maybe this isn't it,
(27:15):
baby girl.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Yeah maybe yeah.
Speaker 5 (27:17):
Maybe all of this isn't But there's so much momentum
behind it.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
You're into your hormones.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
I mean, you're at an age where it's very appropriate
to be starting to have sexual feelings. So if he's
the thing that they've put in front of you, and
you're in Waco where there's no other option, period, hard stop.
I could see where it gets kind of just just
projected onto him of like, yeah, I guess I can
do this, Like.
Speaker 5 (27:43):
And this was two thousand and ten, Okay, So I
mean we're talking about a very a very different period
in time.
Speaker 4 (27:53):
And I had actually been single from the ages.
Speaker 5 (27:56):
Of nineteen to now twenty five when I was dating him,
you know, six years of just living the romance with Jesus,
and so all of that to say, I did have
a lot of doubt about him, and I brought that
to our pastors, and I was like, do you really
think we're a good fit, Like does this really make sense?
(28:18):
And like, I have doubts about this part of compatibility.
Speaker 4 (28:23):
But I never had the thought maybe.
Speaker 5 (28:25):
I don't like him because I'm gay, you know, like
because in my mind I was healed from that, like
Jesus had corrected that in.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
My life, not even in your wheelhouse. That can't be
right right right, Like.
Speaker 4 (28:36):
That was something that was dead in the grave.
Speaker 5 (28:37):
And so I kept bringing it up to our pastors
and the response I got was kind of like, yeah, yeah,
we understand that you don't really click with him, but
when you go.
Speaker 4 (28:48):
To God, like do you have a vision for his life?
Speaker 5 (28:51):
Like when you bring your concern to God, like do
you feel like you guys could have a family together,
a life together, And so I kind of want to
touch on that. Again, it's the same thing as the
conversion therapy. It's the self doubt, like yeah, and I
guess you're confused, you don't know, but God knows.
Speaker 4 (29:09):
Go ask God what you should do, and obviously God's
going to.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Say he's Mary the Christian boy.
Speaker 4 (29:15):
Yeah yeah, yeah yeah, So.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Obviously God's gonna say.
Speaker 4 (29:21):
Yeah, yeah. So we you know, got engaged after a
year of dating.
Speaker 5 (29:26):
We had our kiss and very similar. It was kind
of like I didn't feel like the same thing as
the handholding of like wow, this really feels like my brother,
but I had the feeling of like I think I
was supposed to feel something, Yeah, like I waited twelve
months to like kiss this guy. He bought the ring,
he asked me, we kissed.
Speaker 4 (29:48):
I think I was supposed.
Speaker 5 (29:49):
To feel something, and so in order to exist as
like a closeted gay person, which you know again I
wasn't really closeted. I thought that part of my life
was done. You really have to divorce, like your head
and your heart from one another. It really is like
a dissociation. And I would say, you know, since coming out,
(30:11):
that has been my work is like reintegrating mind and
body and soul to all find my authentic self.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
But and that's so common even for I mean it
for you, it's so magnified because even like when our
listeners coming out later, you've been married to men for
twenty years, having sex with men, you know, begrudgingly you
dissociate and then you try to be with a woman and.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
You're like you said, you're divorced.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
From I don't even know what, Like, I don't know
how I feel anymore because I have for twenty years
shut it down.
Speaker 4 (30:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Yeah, so so relatable to so many people.
Speaker 5 (30:50):
So we only had a five month engagement because our
church typically has quick engagements. So we got married August
twenty eleven, and four weeks after we got married, our
pastors approached us and they were like, hey, we've been
talking about it, and we've been seeking the counsel of
(31:11):
the Lord, and we really feel like you two should
go and start a church in Benghazi, Libya.
Speaker 4 (31:19):
And so again.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
They like have a hit out on you, Like, yeah,
the world.
Speaker 5 (31:29):
I think that goes back to their theology of like,
you know, if you can go to the worst places
in the world where no Christians exist, then everyone has
heard this gospel, and Jesus will return and wipe everyone's
tears away.
Speaker 4 (31:41):
There'll be no more pain.
Speaker 5 (31:42):
And so you gotta you kind of got to follow
the geopolitical climate of like, Okay, two thousand and seven,
nobody wants to go to Iraq and do this, twenty eleven,
nobody wants to go to Benghazi and do this. And
so because we were like obedient, god fearing Christians and
we had our you know, implicit trust in our church authority,
(32:02):
we did that.
Speaker 4 (32:03):
And so.
Speaker 5 (32:05):
The security situation worsened in Benghazi. And so we actually
lived on the Libyan Tunisian border for a year, fully
immersed in Arabic so that we could both gain fluency
and over time, like the US embassy pulled out, the
UK embassy pulled out, all foreign investment pulled out of Libya,
(32:30):
and so we were just kind of in this standstill
of like, okay, do we keep trying to live and
exist in Libya or should we go to another Arabic
speaking nation and do this same work elsewhere? And so
we decided to do the latter because I finally said
to our pastors, like, look, I am willing to die
(32:52):
for Jesus, you guys know that, but I'm not willing
to die just because I hold a Western passport. And
we were seeing people who worked in oil and gas
who were just being executed in Libya just for being Western.
And so at that point we decided to move to Oman.
(33:13):
It's a country next to Saudi Arabia and Yemen, and
so in living in Oman, and.
Speaker 4 (33:22):
We were there about five years.
Speaker 5 (33:25):
That's really where I sort of began my journey back
to myself. And I'll just share this last juicy part
and then if there's any followup questions and I'm happy
to answer them. But I ended up playing on the
women's national basketball team for Oman, and don't be impressed.
(33:46):
They were like as good as a high school girls team.
It's a country four million people, The talent pool was small.
I was big fish in a small pond. And on
that team was someone from the royal family who was
just gorgeous and she really took an interest in me.
(34:07):
And I was just excited to have an Omani friend
who also like listened to Cold Play you know, and
like yeah, yeah and so and obviously, you know, being
from the royal family, like she looked like a Kardashian.
She had a driver, a maid, a butler, I mean
all of these things. And my husband and I started
(34:30):
sharing the Gospel with her and her husband, and we
were excited because we were like, wow, you know, we're
going to see like someone in the Royal family turned their.
Speaker 4 (34:37):
Heart to Jesus. You know, this is like dreams missionary.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (34:42):
And so they invited us to go to Bali, you know,
to their villa and Bali, as one does. And so
they asked us on a Sunday morning and Sunday evening,
we were on a plane to Bali. And when we
got there, her husband as said to my husband like, hey,
let's go rent some scooters so we can get around
(35:03):
the island on scooters. And she and I were in
like the plunge pool and at the villa.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
And Bali, and I like where this is going, guys.
Speaker 5 (35:16):
Yeah, she swam across the pool to me and again
like I never felt like, oh, I'm attracted to her.
Speaker 4 (35:27):
That's why I want to spend time with her, because
that part of me is dead.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
Yeah, And she swims.
Speaker 5 (35:31):
Across the pool and just wraps her arms and legs
around me and full.
Speaker 4 (35:37):
On kisses me.
Speaker 5 (35:38):
Whoa yeah, And so at this at this point, I've
been married like seven years to a man.
Speaker 1 (35:43):
You know, wait a.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Minute, doesn't she know you're like a hardcore Christian?
Speaker 5 (35:46):
Well yeah, but I mean she's a hardcore Muslim you know, yeah, yeah,
religious masks, but damn. You know, at this point, I
had been having seven years of orgasm less sex with
my husband, and our cult said to us, like, you
should never deny your husband's sex when he requests it,
(36:08):
because it can be harmful for their confidence. They can
feel rejected. And so they were like give the caveat
like these course, you know if you have a baby,
like you don't have to for six weeks, but like
it's good to never say no. So it's like I've
been having this obligatory intercourse and then this you know,
Kardashian looking woman.
Speaker 4 (36:28):
Yeah, and when I tell you, it was.
Speaker 5 (36:31):
Like a scene from a movie where somebody just the
helmet that has kept their head locked down and brainwashed
broke off. I mean it was like going from black
and white to full color, Like it all kind of
clicked together.
Speaker 3 (36:48):
Okay, Wow, that's an amazing story and there's so much
more to hear, and we're going to have you back
on to wrap this up. And I think like this
is a great little cliffinger he.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
Up, Hager.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
All right, well, we'll see you next week Anna for more.
Speaker 4 (37:03):
Yeah, thank you guys for having me. I look forward
to it.
Speaker 5 (37:05):
Thank you, all right, take care bye.
Speaker 4 (37:11):
I want to support the Lesbian Chronicles podcast.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
Rate us and write a review on Apple podcast or Spotify.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
We love listener feedback.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
If you'd like to share your story, email us at
Melissa and Ali at gmail dot com.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
That's Melissa M. E. L I. S A and Ali
A L.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
L I at gmail dot com. Or follow us on
Instagram at Lesbian Chronicles
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