September 28, 2025 • 42 mins
Our friend Rachel from Seattle joins the show to fill-in as co-host for Melisa.
Alli and Rachel talk dating, long distance situations and how to build on that friend group. Rachel's pro-tip... holding "Office Hours" every Friday!
Don't forget to buy tickets to our event in Seattle October 18, 2025
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/lesbian-chronicles-coming-out-later-in-life--5601514/support.
Alli and Rachel talk dating, long distance situations and how to build on that friend group. Rachel's pro-tip... holding "Office Hours" every Friday!
Don't forget to buy tickets to our event in Seattle October 18, 2025
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/lesbian-chronicles-coming-out-later-in-life--5601514/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
I'm Ali. I came out after twenty years of marriage
and I have three kids. I'm Melissa and I have
two kids, and I came out at thirty seven after
an eleven year marriage. This podcast is about coming out
later and the struggles and victories that come with it
when coming out feels like the end of the world,
but it's really just the beginning. This is the Lesbian Chronicles.
(00:32):
The Lesbian Chronicles.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Wait, I get so quick on this.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Oh yeah, we've got a new voice. Guys. We have
Rachel Horgan here, who was a guest, and then we've
stayed in touch, and now twice you were guests. And
actually we have to revisit your topic because I just
love to. But also who were doing the event with
in Seattle?
Speaker 2 (00:52):
That's right?
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Okay, So I'm so excited. I've never been to Seattle. Okay,
so I'm super pumped, but I'm also annoyed that we
only are there for two nights.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
I just listened to your episode about traveling, which was
hilarious about roasting everybody on the plane.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
And actually let me to ask you, where do you
where do you fall on these things? Oh?
Speaker 2 (01:10):
I mean I bring a carry on. I think that's
very normal. That's funny for you.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
I sit on the aisle because I'm a people pleaser.
So if I have to go to the bathroom, I'm
not going to inconvenience to people.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
You don't seem like a people please, Oh I am.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
I mean, I'm an event I'm in the events industry.
I'm in customer service. Like I want to make fare
life the best it can be.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Okay, that's good to know. Yeah, okay, so wait a minute,
So you are a asle like most of us, right right?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Okay, yeah, but I do think a lot of people
like window which I obviously are a psychopaths.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
But they don't. They don't, not a lot, because truly
it's always the windows in the middle that are left.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Am I bringing hereig? No? I think that is really
that's a very trouble line.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
But what do you think about when you see the
middle aged man watching movies at two o'clock?
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Oh see, I don't, I'm not. I was listening to
that and I like to zone out when I'm on
a flight. Like for me, I can't. And I don't
know maybe it's ADHD or what, but like I cannot
work on a plane like, Okay, I want to just
watch a movie, listen to my podcast. Watch, yeah, whatever.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
If you're listening to a podcast, I'm less judgy because
I think it's like, well, or I'm just like, oh, well,
she's maybe she's like I don't know, listening to something good.
But it's like, I don't know why I do that.
It's terrible. It's judgy.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
We're going to work on that.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
I know. It's not nice.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Like upbringing, we're like you must you know.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
You must be productive every minute of every day. No,
it's terrible. I was even thinking. We just dropped read
off at soccer and I was seeing all these parents
like who stay and watch? And I'm like, how do
you stay? Like don't you have anything to do for
an hour or not?
Speaker 2 (02:29):
When you're driving on a Tuesday, You're like, where are you? Guys?
I know where to what's happening?
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Get back to work, guys, everybody, get back to work.
But I'm sad we're only saying two nights, say another night.
I know I want to, but I just tied in
with Melissa and so I don't even know if we can,
but I want to. Yeah, exactly. I know she's gonna
be in the window. But because if I could, I
have an aunt that lives like forty five minutes from sea.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
I'm going to get you drunk.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
And you're like yeah, we're saying yeah, say forever exactly.
I know I'm gonna love it.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
It's gonna be great. Yeah. So, well for the listeners,
I'm here in town for I do fully freelance corporate
event planning, and one of my clients we have an
event here tomorrow in Atlanta, Georgia, And so I was like, well,
while I'm here, what do you guys to We were
just supposed to just hang out, and then you were
like should we hang out with microphones?
Speaker 1 (03:17):
I know right well, it's kind of like it worked
out so perfectly because Melissa never has to cancel and
she literally was like I cannot, like I've got so
much happening. And then I'm like, oh, don't worry. We
got Rachel in and we got a backup.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Yes, I run my own podcast in Seattle. So I'm
but although I do get nervous every time, I get
a little nervous every time I record, even though I
do it every week.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Yeah, I guess I don't because you have real like
people that you're face to face with we have like
each other and then yeah we don't. We have each
other and like people that are doing what we're doing.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Yeah, I mean yeah, And your topic is different. Mine
is business news and I'm recapping articles, I'm interviewing CEOs.
It's a little bit different.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
And know, do you ever feel like you don't know
what they're talking about?
Speaker 2 (03:58):
No? But sometimes it's hard because you have to be
present but not present. I have to be like, Okay,
how much time has passed and what questions should ask next?
To skip this question? Will it makes sense? You know,
like you're kind of in and out.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Yeah, so that would be really hard for me.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Yeah, whereas I feel like this is different. Which so
my first episode I'll say with you is was over
the phone, okay, which, let me tell you, hard you
do forget that you're recording a podcast. So I was
just labbing on about my last story and at the
end we were talking about sex, and You're like, we
should have you back on it talk about sex and
at the time not out to my parents, like I'm
on a national podcast talking about sex.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
And then that's when I flew to Atlanta and did
the in person one about sex, and I remember we
were in a wee work and I was like, this
is normal, this is so normal when she was fidding.
But I do remember before we recorded you're you guys.
I think that's what's so great about your show is
that it's so conversational. Because I was like, all right,
so should we talk about the agenda? No, we're recording.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Was like, oh you even kind of were like that tonight.
Oh yeah, I was really, yeah, I know, I don't.
We don't do it. I don't know why. I think
we at the very beginning, we would try to and
then it would always go off the rails. So then
we were just and we actually, for a little while
had a producer that helped us, and she used to
work for Ourheart radio, so she knew what she was
(05:10):
doing and she would like keep us in check, like
moving through it. But yeah, that kind of just when
we lost her. It's like you lost the parent. It's
like keeping it in check.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
But you got some good combos. But I remember you
reached out on Instagram. This is a while back, and
you were like we were thinking about like having you back on,
and I remember being like, I don't know, if I'm
ready for like where is she now? Because like I'm
kind of in the same big like everything's great now. Yeah, No,
I'm kind of in a really weird toxic situation, still struggling,
(05:42):
like I'm actually not.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
But you know what I like to think, Rachel, they're
all toxic until you get married, like they literally or
they teach you something, or they're not meant to be
like it's not even And what I'm realizing too, because
I've watched my friends in relationships be kind of the
bad guy and the good guy. Yeah, and I'm realizing
there is no bad guy good guy. Even the bad
guy is like it's just a flawed character in the
(06:07):
story that's like in a situation. So it's just we're
all in these roles until you get married.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Yeah. I think we all have our motivations and our
reasons and yeah, and I don't think anybody's truly bad
or truly good.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Right, you get cooler and cooler to me, So I
think you're not You're not in a where are they now?
They're doing great?
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Sure, Yeah, go with that. Okay, So you.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Were in a long distance relationship, yes.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
I know. Yeah, So I think since we recorded it
was in like a weird I don't know. We throw
the word toxic around, but situationship wasn't good for me.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Kept trying to how did that even start? Like how
does a situationship?
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Like tell me more, I'll tell you what I can
tell it. We met through friends and we were friends
and then became romantic pretty quickly. But she was like,
I don't want anything serious. But then it I think
all a lot of listeners have probably experienced this where
everything about that quote unquote friendship feels like a relationship. Yeah,
and so they're not doing anything wrong because they're saying
(07:04):
we aren't in a relationship, and but at the same
time you feel like you are. So I don't know.
It was one of those things like I was telling
you earlier, you know, sometimes I'd feel really validated by her,
and it was like going to Vegas and like hitting
that pulling that lever over and now over again, because
sometimes you get a jackpot sometimes feelings for me. The
next day it was like, no, I don't have feelings
(07:24):
for you. Yeah, but it was one of those things
too where a lot of my friends were saying, what
are you doing? Yeah, I was like, you don't know her.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Yeah, oh god, anytime you say that, it's like, wait
a minute, did they how did they know her? If
she was long distance?
Speaker 2 (07:39):
No? No, this is this is the not long distance.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Okay, this is the first talk, so right.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Yeah. The other one I don't think was toxic. That
was just distance.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
So yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
So that ended and then I was like, I'm done
with straight women, like I can't be.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Oh you didn't even mention the straight part.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Well, yeah, straight, But I have kind of a pattern,
which I think again, I think a lot of people
listening probably have dealt with that or have you dealt
with that? Like I'm not.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Attracted to straight people at all? Okay, it's interesting about me.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Well, I think it's about being going after somebody unavailable,
and I think, okay, straight is probably part of that,
or like the challenge. It makes you feel good where
you're like if I can get her right right. So
I was working through a lot of that and I
was like, guys, the last time I did it, my
friends were like, are we done with the straight girls?
And yeah, And then I went to a wedding and
met a mutual friend who was straight, and I was
(08:26):
just flirting and having fun and then long story short,
we ended up dating. She lived in New York.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Okay, but she is self proclaimed straight.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
At the time. Now, I've been told like when we
were together, she came out to some like her friends
and some of her family.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Okay, so she was just on her way out. Yes, yeah, okay,
but the long distance was too hard.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
It's too hard, and I want to talk them less
about this and see what her experience was that I
don't know. For me, I haven't been in a relationships,
so when I'm in a relationship, I want to bring
them as my plus one to things. I want to
bring them happy hour, like I want to hold her hands.
She would agree, it felt too much like I was
still single and there was also and I've heard her
talk about this, is that there was no end in
sight for me, and I think her perspective. I don't
(09:06):
want to speak too much for her, but was like,
let's just keep dating and see what happens, and maybe
we will move for each other. But in my mind,
I'm like, you know, we're both very settled in our cities,
and we're also in our thirties. I think sometimes I
would tell some friends about it, They're like, well, just
move for her. I'm like, you moved for a guy
when you were twenty two, Like maybe I would when
I was twenty two, but I'm thirty, almost thirty seven.
(09:26):
My life is established here. Yeah, it was heartbreaking. What
was hard as that I had to break up there before.
I think I really I didn't lose feelings for her.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
It was just that there was no there was and
she couldn't move to Seattle.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
I think maybe eventually that could have been a conversation
for one of us to move, but I wasn't willing
to like date for another year and then you know realize.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Yeah, the circumstances just weren't ideal for that to work.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
But here's the thing. So when I was doing this,
I was talking to people and a lot of people
were like, oh, don't do a distance, And I go, okay,
but have you done distance?
Speaker 1 (09:57):
Right?
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Yeah I didn't work. I go okay, but I am late,
you know, late in life, like toxic person check.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Yeah what I should have done at nineteen, right is
happening now.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
So I have a lot of judgment where I was
wanting to just experiment that on my own and you know,
they had already done it in their twenties.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Right, So, but I think sometimes too, the lesson looks different. Yes,
it's like I've been in situations where I'm like, oh, wait,
this is what's happening, but it's it doesn't look like
you thought it would, you know.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Yeah, I'm grateful for the whole experience. It was the
first person. I mean we did it for like three months,
which you know, in lesbian terms, was like.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
To you a lifetime. Yeah, it's a lifetime.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
But it made me see like the first person I
could really see a future with. And I just feel
like I hit some mital smilestones with her that I
hadn't with other people.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
So what about the talk to me more about the
dopamine lever pulling oh.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
With the other woman? Yeah in Seattle? Oh yeah, I
just felt like I was smarter than that. But and
I'm not trying to talk shit about her. I think
that she was pretty honest with what she could and
couldn't give.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
And what was her was she saying like, I don't
want to be in a relationship and here's why, clearly,
And I was like, yeah, but but you would hold
on to the times that she would give you something great?
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Yes, exactly what would when you would say.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
To her like, wow, but you've had these other feelings,
how would she reconcile that?
Speaker 2 (11:12):
I mean, I think that's for her to answer, probably,
but I think it was clear that she wasn't wanting
to be in a relationship with me. And I think
there was a time where I was like, that's I don't,
I don't, that's so cash Yeah fine, And then I'm like,
so no, you live in Yeah, but anyway, I think
that's kind of what I've been up to.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
How did you pull yourself out of that?
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Gosh? I mean we like went on like six different
breaks and we tried a lot of different things and
then I don't know. I think it just took time
and a lot of different lessons over and over and
my friends and yeah, I think honestly when I started
dating that long distance woman, that helps too, because she
was like, I'm sorry, you're going to hang out with
who now? Like, yeah, basically you've told me, you know,
she write that story, And I think that really was
(11:58):
eye opening, was that Okay, I need to set not
that she's out of my life completely, but like I
need to set some pretty strong boundaries, right, So it is.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
True, like you get the hits and it's like they
give you just enough. And she probably when she's saying
the things that keep you in it, she believes it.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Yeah in that moment, Yeah, it's not like you dealt
with this, I have tell me more.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Yeah, like you you're in it and you feel all
the things. But then it's like you go away from
it and you're like, oh shit, like what am I
doing right now?
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Did you?
Speaker 1 (12:28):
And I feel it?
Speaker 2 (12:29):
I'm why did? I? Like I am smarter than this.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
And this has happened a long time ago, but I
think yeah, or more just like what's wrong with me?
Like that would be my thing. I still say that now.
I'm back in therapy after years of not going to therapy,
and I've said it out loud in therapy, like what
is wrong with me? Like I've you know, I recognize it.
(12:51):
I see these patterns and I'm like, I don't want
to be this person.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
That's the thing is I knew what I was doing,
like I can't fully see it, but I couldn't stop it.
And I think that that is very common.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Right. What's the dating scene in Seattle? Uh?
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Well, I took a break. So when I was dating
in the long distance. I was unemployed and trying to
figure out my life. So I wanted to focus on
my career, which, like I said, I'm fully freelanced now
and that feels a little bit more settled. OK. But
I think I used that excuse for a while of
I just got to figure out my career and then
I'll do yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Then I gained some weight at Classic, and so then
I just wasn't feeling as confident. So I think where
I'm at currently, I know I'm not like you know,
fully evolved now and I've made it. Where I'm currently
at is trying to get back into dating with some
confidence and right, Yeah, I don't know. It's hard though.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Do people do like in Atlanta online dating as a thing?
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Oh yeah, I mean yeah. I personally, I think we've
we've kind of pendulum swung a little bit with the
apps had their time. I mean I've been on them
since they were invented, But I feel like people are
craving in person. I've seen a lot more people doing
the speed dating or I went to like a lesbian
singles mixer thing.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
We are trying to we have an event this weekend
and we're trying to get people to pitch their friend,
like you would come and actually if your name came up,
because we were like, let's get her to stay and
then we're going to pitch her. But you want to
tell the craziest thing. And I've had like fights with
people today about it. None of my friends want to
be pitched or are willing to pitch. Like they're like, ah,
(14:19):
we're so, that's so uncomfortable. I'm like, uncomfortable. You're going
to stand there, Well, I say for two minutes, wonderful
things about you and like you're single, and here's a
room full of women who will be excited to know
all this shit about you. But they're like, I can't
I know, don't We have one friend who's like, if
you have no one else you can pitch?
Speaker 2 (14:39):
What do you what's the ven diagram with those people?
And if they want to do karaoke? I feel those
people a.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Karaoke Actually, these women we do karaoke here too, pretty regularly,
queryoke in the neighborhood, in the gighborhood, but they do.
But it's like all of us doing it, and so
no one really gives a ship but to be pitched.
If I was single, and out there. I would think
it'd be fun to be pitched, So for sure, that
(15:07):
struck me as odd that people aren't into They don't
want to be put on the spot to be pitched.
They would rather do a dating app.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
I mean as a safe yeah, for sure, but I
think there's more desire for in person which is a
pitch for our in person events. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
Total, So come on down, Yes, that's it. I mean,
think about it though. Like the other thing about the
event that's so awesome is it's not like this sing
It's not billed as a singles like singles party scene.
This is like people coming to an event to hear speakers,
to network, to build community, have friendship, like and then
you might meet some women. So it's like this extra
(15:44):
cool thing. But I feel like it's such a safe
place to go, even if you're by yourself.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
And I've been kind of I know when I first
came out, finding queer friends was so important too. Yeah,
I had to be so intentional about that, not ehuge
dating and I know you guys talk about that a lot.
What was how do you feel like you've your queer
friends in the beginning, In.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
The very beginning, I remember like my sister saying, you
just need one person because then you have one person
to do things with. So I went to group therapy
with and that's where I met Melissa, right, and then
I met two other We had a group of four
women and it was like Melissa and I and these
two other women who I'm still friends with, and we
just would like every every weeken and we didn't have
(16:23):
the kids, we would go do something. I mean, we laughed.
Now we're like we were Did you ever see Reservoir Dogs? Okay,
there's the scene where these guys are like a pack
of guys like in slow motion, like walking and they
look like they think they look amazing, And that would
be like us walking into the gay bar, like we've
were like we thought we were like on the fucking scene.
Knew here we're out together, and they'd be like nobody there.
(16:46):
We'd be like, okay, well this is kind of anti colmactic,
but we just kept showing up.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Yeah, I yeah, it was. It was kind of tough.
I feel like I feel good about making friends, but
I think specifically funny queer friends, you have to really
sneak them out. What I don't know if this is
good advice or bad advice. But what I would do
is I have no shame, So I'll invite somebody to
hang out like ten times and it just keep it
keep You were busy last weekend, what about this weekend?
(17:13):
Am I the eleventh dinner? Maybe they don't my friend? Well,
that sucks, which is fine. We've got on both sides
of that. But I my strategy is just if I
meet somebody who's cool, I'm gonna keep asking them to
hang out. I think Seattle kind of has that reputation
of like we should do hang out and then that
never happens. So I feel like I try to do the.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Is it easy like Atlanta is if especially if you're
in Kirkwood in this neighborhood, it's very easy to hang
out because I mean, my friends are a block away there,
so it's like easy to go get coffee, It's easy
to get a glass of wine or just pop over.
Is it Seattle like that?
Speaker 2 (17:48):
It is, But you just have to make sure your
friends are all in the same neighborhood, you know, or
close by you know. I go to Fremont and Ballad
a lot every Friday, go to the same bar. And
it's what I call my office hours. Yes, so you don't,
which nice is it. You don't have to RCVP and say, oh,
I can't make happy hour this week, or I can
or I can't whatever, Just I'll be there, show up
if you feel like showing.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
This is the coolest thing I've ever heard. Wait say
this again. So you you just have this like standing thing.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Yeah. It's based off of if people went to college
and a professor would have office hours on Wednesday from
like two to five, and if you had a question
you just knew he was there, you can come ask him.
So that's what it is. It's every Friday from four
to six at this bar called Yonder in Seattle, and.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Nice take this note, four to six Yonder in Seattle,
Friday nights. Rachel's there. Yeah I love this. And so
then your friends, if they are free, they'll be like, oh,
Rachel'll be at Yonder. Let's pop in.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Yeah, and then I know all the right tender sof in.
It's like there's been a couple of weeks where it's
just me or just me and one of their friends
and that's fine too. Yeah. Yeah, it's been really cool.
So I recommend people.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Is Yonder is not a gay bar.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Well technically no, but enough of me and my friends
show up that it makes it a gay bar.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
But are you would you say, though, that you have
more straight friends than gay friends.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Oh, that's really changed over the years. I've recently they've
recently melded. Oh that for you yet? No, okay, I've
kept them very so not on purpose really, but I
used to have a ton of straight friends, and then
I had this mission to find queer friends, and then
I would hang out with them separately. And there was
this restaurant we used to all go to and anyway
they ended up meeting, and now they hang out which
without me, which is awesome.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Like, oh my god, I love heart. Yeah, I'm a
connector so I love that.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
But something I did notice is one of the first
few times we were all hang out together is how
my personality not personality, but I noticed how I was
kind of shifting a little bit with each group. So
like inside jokes or references or I don't know, some
of my friends are kind of like we have flirty
friendships or yeah, you know, we're referencing gig celebrities that
the straight friends don't know about. And I was like, oh,
you guys don't know this side of my personality.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Yeah, you know, do you feel exposed or is that
like fun?
Speaker 2 (19:46):
It's fun? But I'm also like, okay, are my straight
friends chill?
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Like yeah, yeah, they think it's weird. Yeah, but obviously
they are because now they're melding.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
I mean, it's all in my head.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
But do you ever feel like I just talked to
somebody about this today where you have to you date
different people that like bring out Like let's say I
might date somebody who makes me feel more masculine or
like maybe I'm older so I feel more in charge
or in some way, or I'm younger or I'm more feen.
They bring out like a fem I feel like they're
(20:18):
more masks. So it pushes me to be a girl
more in the weirdest way and like figuring out what
I like, how do I like to feel?
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Right? Yeah? I think that's that was such the beauty
of dating women in the beginning. Yeause, Oh I could
pick up the tab that's kind of funny. Yeah, yeah,
done that, and you kind of have like some pop
energy that you.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
Get to Yeah that's what I mean.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Yeah, Like, do I want to kind of take control
here and then you date somebody else and you're you know,
I dated a nurse that she was very much like
took care of me, and I'm kind of used to catering,
you know, because her service. Yeah, and she did all
this stuff, and I was like, oh, okay, I kind
of like this. But I don't think I have like
one or the other. I think what's so beautiful about
dating women and exploring is that you get to kind
(20:58):
of try the different things, right, But.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Do you think like you try the different things and
like eventually you know, this feels the best to me,
do you think? I don't know. That's what I'm curious about.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
I don't know. I don't know if I have an answer.
I know I'm still figuring that out, I think. I
I mean, I'm typically more drawn to more femme women,
but that's just more looks, I guess.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
And it's somebody that it doesn't have to be an
equal or it doesn't have to be unequal. Like even
if one person is more top energy, they're probably in that.
If you look at a relationship and there's top energy
and bottom energy, likely the bottom is probably way more
in charge than we think. In the real world.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Yeah, you know, when they're deciding restaurants, one person might
be right versus the bed.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Yeah. Yeah, so I think you never know. And it's
kind of brings us to one of our topics, which
is who you spend time with, Like yeah, like I well,
I say to my kids all the time, and I
believe this so firmly that you are the five people
that you spend time with period hard stop. I don't
there aren't except that I've seen yet in fifty years.
(22:02):
Look around. That is who you are. And I take
that very seriously, more for them probably than me because
I love them so much, but even me, like I
pay attention. And I've said recently like I'm a little
out of alignment right now, like not necessarily that I'm
I think I'm spending too much time sometimes with the
(22:23):
wrong people, and it makes me not feel I don't
know at my core, like who I am?
Speaker 2 (22:29):
What do you mean by wrong people? What does that
mean to you?
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Just not people? There's nothing wrong with them, they just
maybe are not my people. And so you end up
and I'm not There aren't people that I'm spending so
much time with that they're in my front row five,
my front row five is solid. Yeah, yeah, that's solid,
and I'm very comfortable with who I am. But I
think that that is so important that like you don't
lose sight of that, because sometimes you're building community and
(22:53):
you're so desperate for gay community or community in general
that you start to just be like, fuck all, spend
a Saturday night with this person that isn't the best
for me?
Speaker 2 (23:05):
So true? Yeah, well, I think there's value in shared experience,
and so that person that's queer that maybe isn't tally
a person you do still want to keep in your
circle because you have that shared experience. I definitely feel,
you know, friend groups evan flow for me. I like
to have somebody. I have a couple of podcast friends
right specifically call them my podcast friends.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Well, am I podcast front?
Speaker 2 (23:27):
You can't, You're you span a few different groups.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Okay, Oh I want to hear more about that.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
Go ahead, there's one that I call and we'll call
each other randomly out of the blue and just be like, oh,
I had the worst guest today, or like yeah I
did it, it was so bad on this podcast or whatever,
and we can talk about that and it doesn't mean
we're hanging out all the time, talking about a personal
life all the time. Yeah, we have this in common.
I have my creative friends. I have this guy that
creates short films and him and I are working on
creating a web series and we just geek out on
(23:53):
TV shows. I tell them about we you know, I
love the directing in this one. And yeah, you know
again that's so specific to that. I think those friendships
are so important. And that's sort of where I think
the queer friendships kind of fall into is that they
may not be this perfect friend for you, but there's
something we can talk about and relate to, you know,
in terms of dating and things like that.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
Are there people in that group? Like I have probably
two people that I could, I know a thousand percent
have me like I could. I can call it two
am I can cry hard, I can say a bunch
of crazy shit and there's nothing happens after that. It's
the same. But I don't have a lot of those,
and I think that's how I like it. But I
(24:34):
do have a core group of people, but I don't
have It's very few that I would fully let in.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Yeah, why because why, I.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Think Just because I don't know why? I think, like
you only have so much bandwidth to give people anyway. Yeah,
and maybe I don't want to just give it away.
Maybe I don't know.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
No, I think I think you're right. I think we
only have capacity for a few really deep friendships. Yeah.
I went through a friend break up like a year ago.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Those are hard as fuck.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
What happened, really, what it was is kind of the
We had different definitions of what it meant to be
a best friend to somebody, okay, And I think when
we first went through it, a huge part of me
wanted to tell other people like she did this and
I did this, and aren't I right? Aren't I right? Yeah,
just desperately wanted to be like I'm the right one here.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
And it took my therapist to be to say, you know,
I think you both have different expectations, and some people
might agree with you, some people might agree with her.
I don't think anybody did anything wrong. And I still,
you know, we still hang out. We're just not as
close anymore. But it came down to there was something
I wanted her to do as a best friend, and
she felt like that's too much to ask of me
as a best friend. And I think we're both right,
and we're both valid in that and you have to
(25:42):
kind of think of, yeah, the types of people that
you want and to your point, like you can only
have a few of those super super close friends, yeah,
in your life. I think I agree.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
And was it like to me the thing that I
prioritize the most of anyone as loyalty, but almost like
to a fault, like I can't go on like and
I wonder too. Like my daughter who's she's twenty one
years old, she has said, like, you've imparted this on me,
and it's like can be really damaging, Like we laugh
(26:13):
about it, but she's like, I feel like I just
I if people do one thing that I think is
like slightly disloyal and like you're dead.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
To me and you're not. Melissa and I are a scorpio.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
Yeah, though of.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Like you wrong to me, you're out.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
You wrong me, You're out.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
No, I know I have to work on that because
I think that is part of what I do. But
something that a positive that came out of it is
I felt like in the beginning she was kind of
the only person I could literally tell anything to. I mean, okay,
when we had that sex episode, I talked about her,
and I was so honest with what I was going through.
And when we were going through that friend breakup, so
many other friends stepped up, and I was like, oh,
I can talk to Cat and Mell about this, and
(26:49):
I can talk about talking to Sarah about this. There's
other other friends that I can open up to. And
it took kind of losing that best best friend. I
also think that we maybe had a little bit too
much I don't want to say codepend but it's interesting
that when we had this friend breakup, we both got
into relationships pretty quickly after.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Okay, so like almost like you made room then exactly.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
And again, this wasn't one of those like friend but
have a crush on. It wasn't like that at all,
but we were kind of filling that void for each
other I think.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Right, So, have you guys reconciled enough or is it
just done?
Speaker 2 (27:19):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (27:19):
You're just friends in the group and now we can't
be best friends anymore.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
Yeah. Yeah, have you had to deal with anything like that?
Speaker 1 (27:25):
I mean I did have a huge falling out probably
when I was about your age with my very best friend,
somebody that was in my wedding, Like and it was
a loyalty breach. Yeah, and I mean now she's back
in my life and we're still best friends, but it
was like a five year hiatus of like if I
(27:45):
would see her out, we would ignore each other. I
mean that's how much I just I will stick with it,
but it's to my determent, Like this is something I
don't I think loyalty is still very very important. But
I do think oftentimes, like you said, there's a different
definition of life.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Yeah, So talking about like friends and who we surround ourselves,
what are you trying to bring into your circle right now?
Like what types of friendships and connections are you looking for?
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Yeah, I mean I think, like I don't always I
don't always know until I get to know someone. But
I think like honest people with integrity.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
But you're looking for queer friendships right now.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
I'm not in the market for new friends right now,
but I do. I love my current community. It's fine,
Like we have lots of social things, but I would say,
like as far as like who I want to be
in my front row that I'm using. I mean a
lot of times too, these are your advisors. These are
people you're calling to get advice. From your Have you
ever heard the thing from Rene Brown where she's like,
(28:46):
if you're pulling your friends, like that's not a good
like you're something's wrong, Like you need to kind of
go in. I know, right, But I often think about
that right before I walk up here as one of
my friends, Like what should I talk about today? That's
the thing. But it's like you you do want to
get quiet, Like your lens is different than my lens.
Like if I ask Melissa's advice, she's gonna give me.
(29:06):
She's one of my most solid people. She wants great
things for me, but it's still through her lens of
her life experience the advice. So it's like oftentimes I
don't know, Like I want to make sure my core
people are super solid rooting for me, have a lot
of integrity, and are smart enough to make really kick
ass choices. Versus there's a lot of women out there.
(29:29):
I see them at event, like everybody's not great. That's
the reality.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Like they're just not true and are gonna let you
kind of make some mistakes and be like Okay, yeah,
I see you when you're done.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Melissa always says like if you were in a movie,
what would the audience be like screaming at you.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Yes too, yeah, like the writer's room where they're like,
oh god, this girl again. She's still hung up on
this character from season one?
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Good God? Are you would you say you're completely free?
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Yeah, yes, yes, yes, But are you like, because sometimes.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
You're free but you're not really available.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
I don't think I was available before. I think I
really was focused on getting my business up and running again.
Then just was more comfortable in being single for a while,
and I am recently trying to be back out there, okay.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
And then what would you say? Like, Well, I have
two questions. One is I'm curious, like what you're looking for?
But then two is like everybody has some kind of
like trauma they bring to the table. Mine is abandon meant,
maybe that's why I like loyalty. That is my that
is my monster. I see it, I know it. I
know when it's happening. I know when I'm getting anxious
about it. What's yours?
Speaker 2 (30:44):
I love that you're like, yeah, no, no, it's we're
just gonna riff. What's you're just gonna riff?
Speaker 1 (30:47):
What's your trouma? Why are you broken?
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Oh? I don't know, I don't I mean, I'd have
to really think about this with my like you don't.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
Have to think about it. You're in the back in
your mind right now. Is a major like siren going
off of your trauma.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
I'm sure there's probably some of my parents. What I
think about is like the years that I dated men,
I think I have this complex that I'm never gonna
like somebody. I think ye all into two categories. I
can get into their deep dark thoughts of I'm never
gonna be with somebody because no one will love me,
I won't love anyone else.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
Okay, which is the more the louder.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
Well, for me, it's I won't love somebody else. Okay,
that's my deepest sphere.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
I'm amazing, No, you are amazing.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
I think it's from dating men, is that I didn't
like any men for years and years and years. So
I got this complex that like, I'm not capable of
like falling for anybody.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
But even though you've had a few situations, yeah, yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Think that's been proven wrong obviously, but that still kind
of sticks with you a little.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Bit for sure. So but do you ever do you
trust yourself? Like, if you're really into someone, are you
like is this, am I? Or is this? Are you
even questioning it?
Speaker 2 (31:49):
M Am? I questioning it. I don't think I've gotten
far enough along to have some of those freakouts because
I've only dated people for like three three months. It
is kind of the longest.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Damn girl. Would you do another long distance?
Speaker 2 (32:02):
No? Absolutely not?
Speaker 1 (32:03):
Okay, so sorry, Atlanta woe? Then come to Seattle though,
I know, but they can't move to Seattle. That's like
across the country, whyeah? I mean right over there a
lot of people who have kids. Would you want kids?
Speaker 2 (32:14):
I've gotten really back and forth about that. I thought
I did for a while, and then I didn't, and
then I was like, well, if somebody else has kids,
I think what I hung up out about is availability.
So I want to be able to say, let's go
on a weekend trip or come to this party with
me tonight. And I don't know if our lifestyles would
aligne if somebody had a kid right now.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
Couldn't they just bring the kid?
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Like? How old is a kid?
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Seven?
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Maybe? Maybe? Okay, it's not a hard no. Could you
date somebody? Like? Could you meld families? Again?
Speaker 1 (32:41):
Uh? I don't. I don't think so because I think
I would be too scared now for I still have
one at home. I wouldn't want him to be getting
a situation where he's getting attached to some other kids.
But to meet someone who has kids and like have
the kids hang out.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
Maybe, Yeah, it's hard. There's only I talked about this
in my guess lecture at my school. But there's only
so much you can think through. Yeah, some stuff has
to be experienced. So for me, I'm like, I don't know.
I don't think I could date somebody with a kid,
but maybe I need to try it out and see
if that is something I can handle.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
I think. I mean, I have to say, like it
is easier to date somebody that doesn't because they don't
have what I consider like a dog in the race.
So it's like there's no competition for resources. I mean,
at the end of the day, we're animals. It's like
if you do have a blended family, I know it
can be beautiful after many years, I know it works.
I know all the things, but at the end of
(33:38):
the day, like biologically I am wired to make sure
mine have incredible resources at the expense. Maybe even this
is terrible, but it's like you can't help it, like
I'm rooting for mine in a way that I probably
it would take a long time for me to feel
that way about someone else's. It happens, I know because
I was there, it happened to me, but it did
(33:59):
take a long time. There were a lot of bumps.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Yeah, well maybe not like right now, you know, like
maybe down the road you could be open to it,
but not right now.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
Yeah, But I think it really back to the part
about just like who you spend time with. I do think, like,
do you feel that way like you're are you ever
in rooms where you're like, this is a drain on me?
Like I don't.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
Yeah, I think I feel that on dates too, where
they've been on some dates and I'm like, am I boring?
Like I can't think of a single thing to say.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Yeah, am I boring? Or are they right? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (34:32):
And I'm I'm like, well, it's hot outside, I'm talking
about the weather, like, oh my god, with somebody else
and you're like, all of a sudden, riffing on this lane.
You're a comedian, yeah, and you're like, I'm the funniest
person ever.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Yeah, Yeah, that's true, that's true. But that's your people.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
That's your people, and I yeah, so what I'm currently
trying to I'm manifesting and trying to bring in and
I love all my friends, but I want to get
a little more more comedy friends because I dabbled in
standardbald by Animal ass it does it too. Yeah, And
there's just a fun It's just a different type of
friendship where you can workshop a joke together and be like, oh,
what if you reference this or what if you pause here?
And I really like those types of it.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Sounds like your your friendships are a lot of creative people.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
I try to Yeah, I like to joke that God
gave me a lot of passion for the arts, but
just like forgot the talent.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
That's not so.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
I can't play music, but I like to be in music.
You know, I can't play.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
Music, but I want to be on stage.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
But if I just hang around them enough, this work.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
It's true.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
So yeah, I don't know. I do like a creative
friend group for sure, and a group that makes me
feel funny.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
How would you in Seattle go about dating? Like, if
you're back out there and do you feel like you
know everyone?
Speaker 2 (35:44):
Well, if I knew how to date, Alli wouldn't be single. No,
that's not true. I feel like I'm out there. I think,
really it is energetically because I run this podcast, I
go to networking events, I have my office hours, I
meet friends and my friends.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
Office hours is the best thing I've ever heard.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
You guys should start it here. I know.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Well, we would want to do it for at a
coffee shop during the day, that's fine, but this is
like it just happened today where we're We were at
a coffee shop and a friend like walked in. I
literally was like, this is like the L word you
remember when like, yeah, it's just like we're at the
neighborhood coffee shop. No, but that's so fun because then
it's just like you don't have to even think about it.
You know what you're doing exactly.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Yeahah, so I'm trying to do it. I feel like
I'm out there. I'm not into the apps, but I think,
why aren't you into the apps? Honestly, it's a time thing.
It takes. It just it doesn't really have the ROI
that okay, like yeah, and you spend all this time
swiping and maybe they're cute and the pictures, but the
second you get there. You know, it's not like a vibe,
whereas if I were to meet somebody at a bar,
(36:45):
you can tell that really quickly. And so I don't know.
It sounds bad, but for me, I'm like, I'm not
gonna keep wasting my Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday nights with people
that are not for me. I agree.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
I think it does for a lot of people, more
harm than good.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
Yeah, I don't know. Again, am I doing it right?
Who's to say? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (37:03):
What about I always tell people Instagram?
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Yeah, but it's hard to like, yes, And I've definitely
slid into my fair share of DMS. Okay, I tried
to slid into Taylor Tomlinson's DMS did not.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
She didn't not spond what's wrong with Taylor? Taylor?
Speaker 2 (37:19):
We have service in here. That's I didn't.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
Yeah, I'm sure you didn't get it. I'm sure you
just didn't get it.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
She tried.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Yeah, So I don't know.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
I'm out there and are you like I think sometimes
like in this community everybody does, like a lot of
us know each other, so it's like it, Yeah, you
just tell.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
People I went to Dallas on a work trip like
two weeks ago. I tell you I'm a Dallas ten
because I got hit on like three times really a
lesbian bar.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
Oh my god, I need to move to down We
all need to.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
Move to Dallas. But what it was that one of
the bartenders, who was off duty at that time or
off work, was like, we could tell you guys were
new here because me and my friend went and we
weren't from Dallas.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
But does that make you get that still? Is like
to me super flattering?
Speaker 2 (37:59):
Oh sure, yeah, I'm saying there's we all do know
each other in the same city sometimes, and so it's
like I'm not going to date my friend or my
other friend or my other friend. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but
when you go to a new city, So yeah, I
think that definitely plays into it.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Do you feel like that when you're out in Seattle,
Like it's rare for me to be out at a
gay event here where I see a new face.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
I don't.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
I don't think it's scarcity. I think I just do
the same shit over and over.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
Yeah, I think you're right. I think I see a
lot of the same faces just because I hang out
the same like crowd or whatever. But I'm not giving up. Hope.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
No, you don't have to give up hope. Hey, Seattle
is a gay city.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
It really is. Yeah, are you gay?
Speaker 1 (38:39):
I'm going to say somebody. You're going to meet someone
at the event. You heard it here October eighteenth. You're
meeting a woman. Yes, and you're going to be a
bad ass because you're like running it. So that's super attractive. Yeah,
I gotta go.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
We are doing a meet and greet.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
Yeah, we're doing a meet and greet. Yeah, talk about
more about the Social Queer because I miss that meeting.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Well so Saturday for the first hour.
The Social Queer is an organization in Seattle, and it's
it was built on a lot of stuff that you
and I talk about, is friendships later in life and
your thirties, forties, fifties. So she organizes these very creative
events around Seattle and brings people together. And so when
we were talking about our Social Hour from seven, doors
at seven, shows at eight. So from seven to eight,
(39:23):
she's gonna come in. We're gonna do kind of bracelets
or wristbands that kind of signify whether you like outdoors
or you have kids or whatever, and it'll be an
easy way for people to connect. And a few other things.
So that'll be seven to eight and then' want the show.
I think we've talked about it, or I probably have
talked about on the show where that's gonna be a
sex therapist. We're going to tell other people's coming out stories.
I don't get tired of those.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
I never get tired.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
I never get tired.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
I know, I know, it's like seeing a dolphin. I
just never gets tired of it. It never tired, never
bores me.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
Yes, and then we have a filmmaker coming out to
talk about that, and then.
Speaker 1 (39:52):
I'm so excited for you guys to meet her. She's kicked,
sounds really cool, so a total badass and another single
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
Well so it's not a single event, but there are
some options of you are, yes.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
There are some great options. Okay, so social queer. So
to me, it's like if you come alone, there's going
to be all this easiness to connect. You're not going
to be standing there because we're going to have reasons
for you to connect with people, whether it's you like
dogs or whatever. It is, like, how does she do that?
Speaker 2 (40:20):
Yeah, I mean we'll find out. I think at the event.
We also have some stuff on Friday night. If people
want to come to the soccer game, which I feel
like is pretty easy to come alone. You could just
watch the game and chit chat however much you want,
and then oh, you're going to the event tomorrow, Like,
I'll see you there. I've been to events. Going to
events are alone is hard, but we are going to
do everything we can to make that feel not hard
(40:42):
because we've all been there. I'm so much easier than.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
Going to a bar alone. Like this is like, yeah,
it's so much easier to do the event because it's
just like there is this thing to look at and do. Yeah,
totally talk about the after party.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
Oh well that was your idea, I know. So we're
going to clear all the chairs. It's like in this
ballroom space, we have a lesbian DJ who is gonna
play some tunes and I don't know, it's not gonna
be like clubby, but it'll be just you can kind
of stand in the corner and talk and sit and
have a conversation, or you can dance on the dance floor.
But we felt like Wild Roses our lesbian bar, and
it's a little small, and so we didn't want to bring,
(41:16):
you know, three hundred people to Wild roses and not
be able to get in, so we thought, why not
just keep them there?
Speaker 1 (41:21):
I love it. Yeah, it's amazing. Why I'm super super pumped.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
It's gonna be so fun. Yeah, I am too.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
Well, thank you so much for showing up. Yeah, thanks
for having me come into the gaborhood. I wish it
was daylight because you could see it.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
I know. Yes, Well next time I have to come
back time.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
For some reason, you end up here Saturday night. It's
a gay party right here.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
Might change change my floor.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
Maybe maybe tomorrow night you're gonna have such a blast
that you're going to be like, I'm staying through the weekend.
Speaker 2 (41:47):
Maybe I mean I am hanging out with an old flame.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
So yeah, that's what I'm saying. Couldn't turn into the weekend.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
I'll look, I'll look at my flaps.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
Okay, we'll tell her and you guys can count.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
Okay, maybe all right? I like this.
Speaker 1 (41:58):
Okay, thanks for having ye see you later, Bye bye.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
I want to support the Lesbian Chronicles podcast.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
Rate us and write a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
We'd love listener feedback. If you'd like to share your story,
email us at Melissa and Ali at gmail dot com.
That's Melissa M. E. L I, s A and Ali A.
L l I at gmail dot com. Or follow us
on Instagram at Lesbian Chronicles
I'm Ali. I came out after twenty years of marriage
and I have three kids. I'm Melissa and I have
two kids, and I came out at thirty seven after
an eleven year marriage. This podcast is about coming out
later and the struggles and victories that come with it
when coming out feels like the end of the world,
but it's really just the beginning. This is the Lesbian Chronicles.
(00:32):
The Lesbian Chronicles.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Wait, I get so quick on this.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Oh yeah, we've got a new voice. Guys. We have
Rachel Horgan here, who was a guest, and then we've
stayed in touch, and now twice you were guests. And
actually we have to revisit your topic because I just
love to. But also who were doing the event with
in Seattle?
Speaker 2 (00:52):
That's right?
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Okay, So I'm so excited. I've never been to Seattle. Okay,
so I'm super pumped, but I'm also annoyed that we
only are there for two nights.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
I just listened to your episode about traveling, which was
hilarious about roasting everybody on the plane.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
And actually let me to ask you, where do you
where do you fall on these things? Oh?
Speaker 2 (01:10):
I mean I bring a carry on. I think that's
very normal. That's funny for you.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
I sit on the aisle because I'm a people pleaser.
So if I have to go to the bathroom, I'm
not going to inconvenience to people.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
You don't seem like a people please, Oh I am.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
I mean, I'm an event I'm in the events industry.
I'm in customer service. Like I want to make fare
life the best it can be.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Okay, that's good to know. Yeah, okay, so wait a minute,
So you are a asle like most of us, right right?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Okay, yeah, but I do think a lot of people
like window which I obviously are a psychopaths.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
But they don't. They don't, not a lot, because truly
it's always the windows in the middle that are left.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Am I bringing hereig? No? I think that is really
that's a very trouble line.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
But what do you think about when you see the
middle aged man watching movies at two o'clock?
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Oh see, I don't, I'm not. I was listening to
that and I like to zone out when I'm on
a flight. Like for me, I can't. And I don't
know maybe it's ADHD or what, but like I cannot
work on a plane like, Okay, I want to just
watch a movie, listen to my podcast. Watch, yeah, whatever.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
If you're listening to a podcast, I'm less judgy because
I think it's like, well, or I'm just like, oh, well,
she's maybe she's like I don't know, listening to something good.
But it's like, I don't know why I do that.
It's terrible. It's judgy.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
We're going to work on that.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
I know. It's not nice.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Like upbringing, we're like you must you know.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
You must be productive every minute of every day. No,
it's terrible. I was even thinking. We just dropped read
off at soccer and I was seeing all these parents
like who stay and watch? And I'm like, how do
you stay? Like don't you have anything to do for
an hour or not?
Speaker 2 (02:29):
When you're driving on a Tuesday, You're like, where are you? Guys?
I know where to what's happening?
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Get back to work, guys, everybody, get back to work.
But I'm sad we're only saying two nights, say another night.
I know I want to, but I just tied in
with Melissa and so I don't even know if we can,
but I want to. Yeah, exactly. I know she's gonna
be in the window. But because if I could, I
have an aunt that lives like forty five minutes from sea.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
I'm going to get you drunk.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
And you're like yeah, we're saying yeah, say forever exactly.
I know I'm gonna love it.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
It's gonna be great. Yeah. So, well for the listeners,
I'm here in town for I do fully freelance corporate
event planning, and one of my clients we have an
event here tomorrow in Atlanta, Georgia, And so I was like, well,
while I'm here, what do you guys to We were
just supposed to just hang out, and then you were
like should we hang out with microphones?
Speaker 1 (03:17):
I know right well, it's kind of like it worked
out so perfectly because Melissa never has to cancel and
she literally was like I cannot, like I've got so
much happening. And then I'm like, oh, don't worry. We
got Rachel in and we got a backup.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Yes, I run my own podcast in Seattle. So I'm
but although I do get nervous every time, I get
a little nervous every time I record, even though I
do it every week.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Yeah, I guess I don't because you have real like
people that you're face to face with we have like
each other and then yeah we don't. We have each
other and like people that are doing what we're doing.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Yeah, I mean yeah, And your topic is different. Mine
is business news and I'm recapping articles, I'm interviewing CEOs.
It's a little bit different.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
And know, do you ever feel like you don't know
what they're talking about?
Speaker 2 (03:58):
No? But sometimes it's hard because you have to be
present but not present. I have to be like, Okay,
how much time has passed and what questions should ask next?
To skip this question? Will it makes sense? You know,
like you're kind of in and out.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Yeah, so that would be really hard for me.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Yeah, whereas I feel like this is different. Which so
my first episode I'll say with you is was over
the phone, okay, which, let me tell you, hard you
do forget that you're recording a podcast. So I was
just labbing on about my last story and at the
end we were talking about sex, and You're like, we
should have you back on it talk about sex and
at the time not out to my parents, like I'm
on a national podcast talking about sex.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
And then that's when I flew to Atlanta and did
the in person one about sex, and I remember we
were in a wee work and I was like, this
is normal, this is so normal when she was fidding.
But I do remember before we recorded you're you guys.
I think that's what's so great about your show is
that it's so conversational. Because I was like, all right,
so should we talk about the agenda? No, we're recording.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Was like, oh you even kind of were like that tonight.
Oh yeah, I was really, yeah, I know, I don't.
We don't do it. I don't know why. I think
we at the very beginning, we would try to and
then it would always go off the rails. So then
we were just and we actually, for a little while
had a producer that helped us, and she used to
work for Ourheart radio, so she knew what she was
(05:10):
doing and she would like keep us in check, like
moving through it. But yeah, that kind of just when
we lost her. It's like you lost the parent. It's
like keeping it in check.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
But you got some good combos. But I remember you
reached out on Instagram. This is a while back, and
you were like we were thinking about like having you back on,
and I remember being like, I don't know, if I'm
ready for like where is she now? Because like I'm
kind of in the same big like everything's great now. Yeah, No,
I'm kind of in a really weird toxic situation, still struggling,
(05:42):
like I'm actually not.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
But you know what I like to think, Rachel, they're
all toxic until you get married, like they literally or
they teach you something, or they're not meant to be
like it's not even And what I'm realizing too, because
I've watched my friends in relationships be kind of the
bad guy and the good guy. Yeah, and I'm realizing
there is no bad guy good guy. Even the bad
guy is like it's just a flawed character in the
(06:07):
story that's like in a situation. So it's just we're
all in these roles until you get married.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Yeah. I think we all have our motivations and our
reasons and yeah, and I don't think anybody's truly bad
or truly good.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Right, you get cooler and cooler to me, So I
think you're not You're not in a where are they now?
They're doing great?
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Sure, Yeah, go with that. Okay, So you.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Were in a long distance relationship, yes.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
I know. Yeah, So I think since we recorded it
was in like a weird I don't know. We throw
the word toxic around, but situationship wasn't good for me.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Kept trying to how did that even start? Like how
does a situationship?
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Like tell me more, I'll tell you what I can
tell it. We met through friends and we were friends
and then became romantic pretty quickly. But she was like,
I don't want anything serious. But then it I think
all a lot of listeners have probably experienced this where
everything about that quote unquote friendship feels like a relationship. Yeah,
and so they're not doing anything wrong because they're saying
(07:04):
we aren't in a relationship, and but at the same
time you feel like you are. So I don't know.
It was one of those things like I was telling
you earlier, you know, sometimes I'd feel really validated by her,
and it was like going to Vegas and like hitting
that pulling that lever over and now over again, because
sometimes you get a jackpot sometimes feelings for me. The
next day it was like, no, I don't have feelings
(07:24):
for you. Yeah, but it was one of those things
too where a lot of my friends were saying, what
are you doing? Yeah, I was like, you don't know her.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Yeah, oh god, anytime you say that, it's like, wait
a minute, did they how did they know her? If
she was long distance?
Speaker 2 (07:39):
No? No, this is this is the not long distance.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Okay, this is the first talk, so right.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Yeah. The other one I don't think was toxic. That
was just distance.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
So yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
So that ended and then I was like, I'm done
with straight women, like I can't be.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Oh you didn't even mention the straight part.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Well, yeah, straight, But I have kind of a pattern,
which I think again, I think a lot of people
listening probably have dealt with that or have you dealt
with that? Like I'm not.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Attracted to straight people at all? Okay, it's interesting about me.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Well, I think it's about being going after somebody unavailable,
and I think, okay, straight is probably part of that,
or like the challenge. It makes you feel good where
you're like if I can get her right right. So
I was working through a lot of that and I
was like, guys, the last time I did it, my
friends were like, are we done with the straight girls?
And yeah, And then I went to a wedding and
met a mutual friend who was straight, and I was
(08:26):
just flirting and having fun and then long story short,
we ended up dating. She lived in New York.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Okay, but she is self proclaimed straight.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
At the time. Now, I've been told like when we
were together, she came out to some like her friends
and some of her family.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Okay, so she was just on her way out. Yes, yeah, okay,
but the long distance was too hard.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
It's too hard, and I want to talk them less
about this and see what her experience was that I
don't know. For me, I haven't been in a relationships,
so when I'm in a relationship, I want to bring
them as my plus one to things. I want to
bring them happy hour, like I want to hold her hands.
She would agree, it felt too much like I was
still single and there was also and I've heard her
talk about this, is that there was no end in
sight for me, and I think her perspective. I don't
(09:06):
want to speak too much for her, but was like,
let's just keep dating and see what happens, and maybe
we will move for each other. But in my mind,
I'm like, you know, we're both very settled in our cities,
and we're also in our thirties. I think sometimes I
would tell some friends about it, They're like, well, just
move for her. I'm like, you moved for a guy
when you were twenty two, Like maybe I would when
I was twenty two, but I'm thirty, almost thirty seven.
(09:26):
My life is established here. Yeah, it was heartbreaking. What
was hard as that I had to break up there before.
I think I really I didn't lose feelings for her.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
It was just that there was no there was and
she couldn't move to Seattle.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
I think maybe eventually that could have been a conversation
for one of us to move, but I wasn't willing
to like date for another year and then you know realize.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Yeah, the circumstances just weren't ideal for that to work.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
But here's the thing. So when I was doing this,
I was talking to people and a lot of people
were like, oh, don't do a distance, And I go, okay,
but have you done distance?
Speaker 1 (09:57):
Right?
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Yeah I didn't work. I go okay, but I am late,
you know, late in life, like toxic person check.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Yeah what I should have done at nineteen, right is
happening now.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
So I have a lot of judgment where I was
wanting to just experiment that on my own and you know,
they had already done it in their twenties.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Right, So, but I think sometimes too, the lesson looks different. Yes,
it's like I've been in situations where I'm like, oh, wait,
this is what's happening, but it's it doesn't look like
you thought it would, you know.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Yeah, I'm grateful for the whole experience. It was the
first person. I mean we did it for like three months,
which you know, in lesbian terms, was like.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
To you a lifetime. Yeah, it's a lifetime.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
But it made me see like the first person I
could really see a future with. And I just feel
like I hit some mital smilestones with her that I
hadn't with other people.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
So what about the talk to me more about the
dopamine lever pulling oh.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
With the other woman? Yeah in Seattle? Oh yeah, I
just felt like I was smarter than that. But and
I'm not trying to talk shit about her. I think
that she was pretty honest with what she could and
couldn't give.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
And what was her was she saying like, I don't
want to be in a relationship and here's why, clearly,
And I was like, yeah, but but you would hold
on to the times that she would give you something great?
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Yes, exactly what would when you would say.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
To her like, wow, but you've had these other feelings,
how would she reconcile that?
Speaker 2 (11:12):
I mean, I think that's for her to answer, probably,
but I think it was clear that she wasn't wanting
to be in a relationship with me. And I think
there was a time where I was like, that's I don't,
I don't, that's so cash Yeah fine, And then I'm like,
so no, you live in Yeah, but anyway, I think
that's kind of what I've been up to.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
How did you pull yourself out of that?
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Gosh? I mean we like went on like six different
breaks and we tried a lot of different things and
then I don't know. I think it just took time
and a lot of different lessons over and over and
my friends and yeah, I think honestly when I started
dating that long distance woman, that helps too, because she
was like, I'm sorry, you're going to hang out with
who now? Like, yeah, basically you've told me, you know,
she write that story, And I think that really was
(11:58):
eye opening, was that Okay, I need to set not
that she's out of my life completely, but like I
need to set some pretty strong boundaries, right, So it is.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
True, like you get the hits and it's like they
give you just enough. And she probably when she's saying
the things that keep you in it, she believes it.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Yeah in that moment, Yeah, it's not like you dealt
with this, I have tell me more.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Yeah, like you you're in it and you feel all
the things. But then it's like you go away from
it and you're like, oh shit, like what am I
doing right now?
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Did you?
Speaker 1 (12:28):
And I feel it?
Speaker 2 (12:29):
I'm why did? I? Like I am smarter than this.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
And this has happened a long time ago, but I
think yeah, or more just like what's wrong with me?
Like that would be my thing. I still say that now.
I'm back in therapy after years of not going to therapy,
and I've said it out loud in therapy, like what
is wrong with me? Like I've you know, I recognize it.
(12:51):
I see these patterns and I'm like, I don't want
to be this person.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
That's the thing is I knew what I was doing,
like I can't fully see it, but I couldn't stop it.
And I think that that is very common.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Right. What's the dating scene in Seattle? Uh?
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Well, I took a break. So when I was dating
in the long distance. I was unemployed and trying to
figure out my life. So I wanted to focus on
my career, which, like I said, I'm fully freelanced now
and that feels a little bit more settled. OK. But
I think I used that excuse for a while of
I just got to figure out my career and then
I'll do yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Then I gained some weight at Classic, and so then
I just wasn't feeling as confident. So I think where
I'm at currently, I know I'm not like you know,
fully evolved now and I've made it. Where I'm currently
at is trying to get back into dating with some
confidence and right, Yeah, I don't know. It's hard though.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Do people do like in Atlanta online dating as a thing?
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Oh yeah, I mean yeah. I personally, I think we've
we've kind of pendulum swung a little bit with the
apps had their time. I mean I've been on them
since they were invented, But I feel like people are
craving in person. I've seen a lot more people doing
the speed dating or I went to like a lesbian
singles mixer thing.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
We are trying to we have an event this weekend
and we're trying to get people to pitch their friend,
like you would come and actually if your name came up,
because we were like, let's get her to stay and
then we're going to pitch her. But you want to
tell the craziest thing. And I've had like fights with
people today about it. None of my friends want to
be pitched or are willing to pitch. Like they're like, ah,
(14:19):
we're so, that's so uncomfortable. I'm like, uncomfortable. You're going
to stand there, Well, I say for two minutes, wonderful
things about you and like you're single, and here's a
room full of women who will be excited to know
all this shit about you. But they're like, I can't
I know, don't We have one friend who's like, if
you have no one else you can pitch?
Speaker 2 (14:39):
What do you what's the ven diagram with those people?
And if they want to do karaoke? I feel those
people a.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Karaoke Actually, these women we do karaoke here too, pretty regularly,
queryoke in the neighborhood, in the gighborhood, but they do.
But it's like all of us doing it, and so
no one really gives a ship but to be pitched.
If I was single, and out there. I would think
it'd be fun to be pitched, So for sure, that
(15:07):
struck me as odd that people aren't into They don't
want to be put on the spot to be pitched.
They would rather do a dating app.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
I mean as a safe yeah, for sure, but I
think there's more desire for in person which is a
pitch for our in person events. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
Total, So come on down, Yes, that's it. I mean,
think about it though. Like the other thing about the
event that's so awesome is it's not like this sing
It's not billed as a singles like singles party scene.
This is like people coming to an event to hear speakers,
to network, to build community, have friendship, like and then
you might meet some women. So it's like this extra
(15:44):
cool thing. But I feel like it's such a safe
place to go, even if you're by yourself.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
And I've been kind of I know when I first
came out, finding queer friends was so important too. Yeah,
I had to be so intentional about that, not ehuge
dating and I know you guys talk about that a lot.
What was how do you feel like you've your queer
friends in the beginning, In.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
The very beginning, I remember like my sister saying, you
just need one person because then you have one person
to do things with. So I went to group therapy
with and that's where I met Melissa, right, and then
I met two other We had a group of four
women and it was like Melissa and I and these
two other women who I'm still friends with, and we
just would like every every weeken and we didn't have
(16:23):
the kids, we would go do something. I mean, we laughed.
Now we're like we were Did you ever see Reservoir Dogs? Okay,
there's the scene where these guys are like a pack
of guys like in slow motion, like walking and they
look like they think they look amazing, And that would
be like us walking into the gay bar, like we've
were like we thought we were like on the fucking scene.
Knew here we're out together, and they'd be like nobody there.
(16:46):
We'd be like, okay, well this is kind of anti colmactic,
but we just kept showing up.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Yeah, I yeah, it was. It was kind of tough.
I feel like I feel good about making friends, but
I think specifically funny queer friends, you have to really
sneak them out. What I don't know if this is
good advice or bad advice. But what I would do
is I have no shame, So I'll invite somebody to
hang out like ten times and it just keep it
keep You were busy last weekend, what about this weekend?
(17:13):
Am I the eleventh dinner? Maybe they don't my friend? Well,
that sucks, which is fine. We've got on both sides
of that. But I my strategy is just if I
meet somebody who's cool, I'm gonna keep asking them to
hang out. I think Seattle kind of has that reputation
of like we should do hang out and then that
never happens. So I feel like I try to do the.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Is it easy like Atlanta is if especially if you're
in Kirkwood in this neighborhood, it's very easy to hang
out because I mean, my friends are a block away there,
so it's like easy to go get coffee, It's easy
to get a glass of wine or just pop over.
Is it Seattle like that?
Speaker 2 (17:48):
It is, But you just have to make sure your
friends are all in the same neighborhood, you know, or
close by you know. I go to Fremont and Ballad
a lot every Friday, go to the same bar. And
it's what I call my office hours. Yes, so you don't,
which nice is it. You don't have to RCVP and say, oh,
I can't make happy hour this week, or I can
or I can't whatever, Just I'll be there, show up
if you feel like showing.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
This is the coolest thing I've ever heard. Wait say
this again. So you you just have this like standing thing.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Yeah. It's based off of if people went to college
and a professor would have office hours on Wednesday from
like two to five, and if you had a question
you just knew he was there, you can come ask him.
So that's what it is. It's every Friday from four
to six at this bar called Yonder in Seattle, and.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Nice take this note, four to six Yonder in Seattle,
Friday nights. Rachel's there. Yeah I love this. And so
then your friends, if they are free, they'll be like, oh,
Rachel'll be at Yonder. Let's pop in.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Yeah, and then I know all the right tender sof in.
It's like there's been a couple of weeks where it's
just me or just me and one of their friends
and that's fine too. Yeah. Yeah, it's been really cool.
So I recommend people.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Is Yonder is not a gay bar.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Well technically no, but enough of me and my friends
show up that it makes it a gay bar.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
But are you would you say, though, that you have
more straight friends than gay friends.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Oh, that's really changed over the years. I've recently they've
recently melded. Oh that for you yet? No, okay, I've
kept them very so not on purpose really, but I
used to have a ton of straight friends, and then
I had this mission to find queer friends, and then
I would hang out with them separately. And there was
this restaurant we used to all go to and anyway
they ended up meeting, and now they hang out which
without me, which is awesome.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Like, oh my god, I love heart. Yeah, I'm a
connector so I love that.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
But something I did notice is one of the first
few times we were all hang out together is how
my personality not personality, but I noticed how I was
kind of shifting a little bit with each group. So
like inside jokes or references or I don't know, some
of my friends are kind of like we have flirty
friendships or yeah, you know, we're referencing gig celebrities that
the straight friends don't know about. And I was like, oh,
you guys don't know this side of my personality.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Yeah, you know, do you feel exposed or is that
like fun?
Speaker 2 (19:46):
It's fun? But I'm also like, okay, are my straight
friends chill?
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Like yeah, yeah, they think it's weird. Yeah, but obviously
they are because now they're melding.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
I mean, it's all in my head.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
But do you ever feel like I just talked to
somebody about this today where you have to you date
different people that like bring out Like let's say I
might date somebody who makes me feel more masculine or
like maybe I'm older so I feel more in charge
or in some way, or I'm younger or I'm more feen.
They bring out like a fem I feel like they're
(20:18):
more masks. So it pushes me to be a girl
more in the weirdest way and like figuring out what
I like, how do I like to feel?
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Right? Yeah? I think that's that was such the beauty
of dating women in the beginning. Yeause, Oh I could
pick up the tab that's kind of funny. Yeah, yeah,
done that, and you kind of have like some pop
energy that you.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
Get to Yeah that's what I mean.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Yeah, Like, do I want to kind of take control
here and then you date somebody else and you're you know,
I dated a nurse that she was very much like
took care of me, and I'm kind of used to catering,
you know, because her service. Yeah, and she did all
this stuff, and I was like, oh, okay, I kind
of like this. But I don't think I have like
one or the other. I think what's so beautiful about
dating women and exploring is that you get to kind
(20:58):
of try the different things, right, But.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Do you think like you try the different things and
like eventually you know, this feels the best to me,
do you think? I don't know. That's what I'm curious about.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
I don't know. I don't know if I have an answer.
I know I'm still figuring that out, I think. I
I mean, I'm typically more drawn to more femme women,
but that's just more looks, I guess.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
And it's somebody that it doesn't have to be an
equal or it doesn't have to be unequal. Like even
if one person is more top energy, they're probably in that.
If you look at a relationship and there's top energy
and bottom energy, likely the bottom is probably way more
in charge than we think. In the real world.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Yeah, you know, when they're deciding restaurants, one person might
be right versus the bed.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Yeah. Yeah, so I think you never know. And it's
kind of brings us to one of our topics, which
is who you spend time with, Like yeah, like I well,
I say to my kids all the time, and I
believe this so firmly that you are the five people
that you spend time with period hard stop. I don't
there aren't except that I've seen yet in fifty years.
(22:02):
Look around. That is who you are. And I take
that very seriously, more for them probably than me because
I love them so much, but even me, like I
pay attention. And I've said recently like I'm a little
out of alignment right now, like not necessarily that I'm
I think I'm spending too much time sometimes with the
(22:23):
wrong people, and it makes me not feel I don't
know at my core, like who I am?
Speaker 2 (22:29):
What do you mean by wrong people? What does that
mean to you?
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Just not people? There's nothing wrong with them, they just
maybe are not my people. And so you end up
and I'm not There aren't people that I'm spending so
much time with that they're in my front row five,
my front row five is solid. Yeah, yeah, that's solid,
and I'm very comfortable with who I am. But I
think that that is so important that like you don't
lose sight of that, because sometimes you're building community and
(22:53):
you're so desperate for gay community or community in general
that you start to just be like, fuck all, spend
a Saturday night with this person that isn't the best
for me?
Speaker 2 (23:05):
So true? Yeah, well, I think there's value in shared experience,
and so that person that's queer that maybe isn't tally
a person you do still want to keep in your
circle because you have that shared experience. I definitely feel,
you know, friend groups evan flow for me. I like
to have somebody. I have a couple of podcast friends
right specifically call them my podcast friends.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Well, am I podcast front?
Speaker 2 (23:27):
You can't, You're you span a few different groups.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Okay, Oh I want to hear more about that.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
Go ahead, there's one that I call and we'll call
each other randomly out of the blue and just be like, oh,
I had the worst guest today, or like yeah I
did it, it was so bad on this podcast or whatever,
and we can talk about that and it doesn't mean
we're hanging out all the time, talking about a personal
life all the time. Yeah, we have this in common.
I have my creative friends. I have this guy that
creates short films and him and I are working on
creating a web series and we just geek out on
(23:53):
TV shows. I tell them about we you know, I
love the directing in this one. And yeah, you know
again that's so specific to that. I think those friendships
are so important. And that's sort of where I think
the queer friendships kind of fall into is that they
may not be this perfect friend for you, but there's
something we can talk about and relate to, you know,
in terms of dating and things like that.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
Are there people in that group? Like I have probably
two people that I could, I know a thousand percent
have me like I could. I can call it two
am I can cry hard, I can say a bunch
of crazy shit and there's nothing happens after that. It's
the same. But I don't have a lot of those,
and I think that's how I like it. But I
(24:34):
do have a core group of people, but I don't
have It's very few that I would fully let in.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Yeah, why because why, I.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Think Just because I don't know why? I think, like
you only have so much bandwidth to give people anyway. Yeah,
and maybe I don't want to just give it away.
Maybe I don't know.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
No, I think I think you're right. I think we
only have capacity for a few really deep friendships. Yeah.
I went through a friend break up like a year ago.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Those are hard as fuck.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
What happened, really, what it was is kind of the
We had different definitions of what it meant to be
a best friend to somebody, okay, And I think when
we first went through it, a huge part of me
wanted to tell other people like she did this and
I did this, and aren't I right? Aren't I right? Yeah,
just desperately wanted to be like I'm the right one here.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
And it took my therapist to be to say, you know,
I think you both have different expectations, and some people
might agree with you, some people might agree with her.
I don't think anybody did anything wrong. And I still,
you know, we still hang out. We're just not as
close anymore. But it came down to there was something
I wanted her to do as a best friend, and
she felt like that's too much to ask of me
as a best friend. And I think we're both right,
and we're both valid in that and you have to
(25:42):
kind of think of, yeah, the types of people that
you want and to your point, like you can only
have a few of those super super close friends, yeah,
in your life. I think I agree.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
And was it like to me the thing that I
prioritize the most of anyone as loyalty, but almost like
to a fault, like I can't go on like and
I wonder too. Like my daughter who's she's twenty one
years old, she has said, like, you've imparted this on me,
and it's like can be really damaging, Like we laugh
(26:13):
about it, but she's like, I feel like I just
I if people do one thing that I think is
like slightly disloyal and like you're dead.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
To me and you're not. Melissa and I are a scorpio.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
Yeah, though of.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Like you wrong to me, you're out.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
You wrong me, You're out.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
No, I know I have to work on that because
I think that is part of what I do. But
something that a positive that came out of it is
I felt like in the beginning she was kind of
the only person I could literally tell anything to. I mean, okay,
when we had that sex episode, I talked about her,
and I was so honest with what I was going through.
And when we were going through that friend breakup, so
many other friends stepped up, and I was like, oh,
I can talk to Cat and Mell about this, and
(26:49):
I can talk about talking to Sarah about this. There's
other other friends that I can open up to. And
it took kind of losing that best best friend. I
also think that we maybe had a little bit too
much I don't want to say codepend but it's interesting
that when we had this friend breakup, we both got
into relationships pretty quickly after.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Okay, so like almost like you made room then exactly.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
And again, this wasn't one of those like friend but
have a crush on. It wasn't like that at all,
but we were kind of filling that void for each
other I think.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Right, So, have you guys reconciled enough or is it
just done?
Speaker 2 (27:19):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (27:19):
You're just friends in the group and now we can't
be best friends anymore.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
Yeah. Yeah, have you had to deal with anything like that?
Speaker 1 (27:25):
I mean I did have a huge falling out probably
when I was about your age with my very best friend,
somebody that was in my wedding, Like and it was
a loyalty breach. Yeah, and I mean now she's back
in my life and we're still best friends, but it
was like a five year hiatus of like if I
(27:45):
would see her out, we would ignore each other. I
mean that's how much I just I will stick with it,
but it's to my determent, Like this is something I
don't I think loyalty is still very very important. But
I do think oftentimes, like you said, there's a different
definition of life.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Yeah, So talking about like friends and who we surround ourselves,
what are you trying to bring into your circle right now?
Like what types of friendships and connections are you looking for?
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Yeah, I mean I think, like I don't always I
don't always know until I get to know someone. But
I think like honest people with integrity.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
But you're looking for queer friendships right now.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
I'm not in the market for new friends right now,
but I do. I love my current community. It's fine,
Like we have lots of social things, but I would say,
like as far as like who I want to be
in my front row that I'm using. I mean a
lot of times too, these are your advisors. These are
people you're calling to get advice. From your Have you
ever heard the thing from Rene Brown where she's like,
(28:46):
if you're pulling your friends, like that's not a good
like you're something's wrong, Like you need to kind of
go in. I know, right, But I often think about
that right before I walk up here as one of
my friends, Like what should I talk about today? That's
the thing. But it's like you you do want to
get quiet, Like your lens is different than my lens.
Like if I ask Melissa's advice, she's gonna give me.
(29:06):
She's one of my most solid people. She wants great
things for me, but it's still through her lens of
her life experience the advice. So it's like oftentimes I
don't know, Like I want to make sure my core
people are super solid rooting for me, have a lot
of integrity, and are smart enough to make really kick
ass choices. Versus there's a lot of women out there.
(29:29):
I see them at event, like everybody's not great. That's
the reality.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Like they're just not true and are gonna let you
kind of make some mistakes and be like Okay, yeah,
I see you when you're done.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Melissa always says like if you were in a movie,
what would the audience be like screaming at you.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Yes too, yeah, like the writer's room where they're like,
oh god, this girl again. She's still hung up on
this character from season one?
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Good God? Are you would you say you're completely free?
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Yeah, yes, yes, yes, But are you like, because sometimes.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
You're free but you're not really available.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
I don't think I was available before. I think I
really was focused on getting my business up and running again.
Then just was more comfortable in being single for a while,
and I am recently trying to be back out there, okay.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
And then what would you say? Like, Well, I have
two questions. One is I'm curious, like what you're looking for?
But then two is like everybody has some kind of
like trauma they bring to the table. Mine is abandon meant,
maybe that's why I like loyalty. That is my that
is my monster. I see it, I know it. I
know when it's happening. I know when I'm getting anxious
about it. What's yours?
Speaker 2 (30:44):
I love that you're like, yeah, no, no, it's we're
just gonna riff. What's you're just gonna riff?
Speaker 1 (30:47):
What's your trouma? Why are you broken?
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Oh? I don't know, I don't I mean, I'd have
to really think about this with my like you don't.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
Have to think about it. You're in the back in
your mind right now. Is a major like siren going
off of your trauma.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
I'm sure there's probably some of my parents. What I
think about is like the years that I dated men,
I think I have this complex that I'm never gonna
like somebody. I think ye all into two categories. I
can get into their deep dark thoughts of I'm never
gonna be with somebody because no one will love me,
I won't love anyone else.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
Okay, which is the more the louder.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
Well, for me, it's I won't love somebody else. Okay,
that's my deepest sphere.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
I'm amazing, No, you are amazing.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
I think it's from dating men, is that I didn't
like any men for years and years and years. So
I got this complex that like, I'm not capable of
like falling for anybody.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
But even though you've had a few situations, yeah, yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Think that's been proven wrong obviously, but that still kind
of sticks with you a little.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Bit for sure. So but do you ever do you
trust yourself? Like, if you're really into someone, are you
like is this, am I? Or is this? Are you
even questioning it?
Speaker 2 (31:49):
M Am? I questioning it. I don't think I've gotten
far enough along to have some of those freakouts because
I've only dated people for like three three months. It
is kind of the longest.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Damn girl. Would you do another long distance?
Speaker 2 (32:02):
No? Absolutely not?
Speaker 1 (32:03):
Okay, so sorry, Atlanta woe? Then come to Seattle though,
I know, but they can't move to Seattle. That's like
across the country, whyeah? I mean right over there a
lot of people who have kids. Would you want kids?
Speaker 2 (32:14):
I've gotten really back and forth about that. I thought
I did for a while, and then I didn't, and
then I was like, well, if somebody else has kids,
I think what I hung up out about is availability.
So I want to be able to say, let's go
on a weekend trip or come to this party with
me tonight. And I don't know if our lifestyles would
aligne if somebody had a kid right now.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
Couldn't they just bring the kid?
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Like? How old is a kid?
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Seven?
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Maybe? Maybe? Okay, it's not a hard no. Could you
date somebody? Like? Could you meld families? Again?
Speaker 1 (32:41):
Uh? I don't. I don't think so because I think
I would be too scared now for I still have
one at home. I wouldn't want him to be getting
a situation where he's getting attached to some other kids.
But to meet someone who has kids and like have
the kids hang out.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
Maybe, Yeah, it's hard. There's only I talked about this
in my guess lecture at my school. But there's only
so much you can think through. Yeah, some stuff has
to be experienced. So for me, I'm like, I don't know.
I don't think I could date somebody with a kid,
but maybe I need to try it out and see
if that is something I can handle.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
I think. I mean, I have to say, like it
is easier to date somebody that doesn't because they don't
have what I consider like a dog in the race.
So it's like there's no competition for resources. I mean,
at the end of the day, we're animals. It's like
if you do have a blended family, I know it
can be beautiful after many years, I know it works.
I know all the things, but at the end of
(33:38):
the day, like biologically I am wired to make sure
mine have incredible resources at the expense. Maybe even this
is terrible, but it's like you can't help it, like
I'm rooting for mine in a way that I probably
it would take a long time for me to feel
that way about someone else's. It happens, I know because
I was there, it happened to me, but it did
(33:59):
take a long time. There were a lot of bumps.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Yeah, well maybe not like right now, you know, like
maybe down the road you could be open to it,
but not right now.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
Yeah, But I think it really back to the part
about just like who you spend time with. I do think, like,
do you feel that way like you're are you ever
in rooms where you're like, this is a drain on me?
Like I don't.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
Yeah, I think I feel that on dates too, where
they've been on some dates and I'm like, am I boring?
Like I can't think of a single thing to say.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Yeah, am I boring? Or are they right? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (34:32):
And I'm I'm like, well, it's hot outside, I'm talking
about the weather, like, oh my god, with somebody else
and you're like, all of a sudden, riffing on this lane.
You're a comedian, yeah, and you're like, I'm the funniest
person ever.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Yeah, Yeah, that's true, that's true. But that's your people.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
That's your people, and I yeah, so what I'm currently
trying to I'm manifesting and trying to bring in and
I love all my friends, but I want to get
a little more more comedy friends because I dabbled in
standardbald by Animal ass it does it too. Yeah, And
there's just a fun It's just a different type of
friendship where you can workshop a joke together and be like, oh,
what if you reference this or what if you pause here?
And I really like those types of it.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Sounds like your your friendships are a lot of creative people.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
I try to Yeah, I like to joke that God
gave me a lot of passion for the arts, but
just like forgot the talent.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
That's not so.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
I can't play music, but I like to be in music.
You know, I can't play.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
Music, but I want to be on stage.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
But if I just hang around them enough, this work.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
It's true.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
So yeah, I don't know. I do like a creative
friend group for sure, and a group that makes me
feel funny.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
How would you in Seattle go about dating? Like, if
you're back out there and do you feel like you
know everyone?
Speaker 2 (35:44):
Well, if I knew how to date, Alli wouldn't be single. No,
that's not true. I feel like I'm out there. I think,
really it is energetically because I run this podcast, I
go to networking events, I have my office hours, I
meet friends and my friends.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
Office hours is the best thing I've ever heard.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
You guys should start it here. I know.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Well, we would want to do it for at a
coffee shop during the day, that's fine, but this is
like it just happened today where we're We were at
a coffee shop and a friend like walked in. I
literally was like, this is like the L word you
remember when like, yeah, it's just like we're at the
neighborhood coffee shop. No, but that's so fun because then
it's just like you don't have to even think about it.
You know what you're doing exactly.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Yeahah, so I'm trying to do it. I feel like
I'm out there. I'm not into the apps, but I think,
why aren't you into the apps? Honestly, it's a time thing.
It takes. It just it doesn't really have the ROI
that okay, like yeah, and you spend all this time
swiping and maybe they're cute and the pictures, but the
second you get there. You know, it's not like a vibe,
whereas if I were to meet somebody at a bar,
(36:45):
you can tell that really quickly. And so I don't know.
It sounds bad, but for me, I'm like, I'm not
gonna keep wasting my Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday nights with people
that are not for me. I agree.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
I think it does for a lot of people, more
harm than good.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
Yeah, I don't know. Again, am I doing it right?
Who's to say? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (37:03):
What about I always tell people Instagram?
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Yeah, but it's hard to like, yes, And I've definitely
slid into my fair share of DMS. Okay, I tried
to slid into Taylor Tomlinson's DMS did not.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
She didn't not spond what's wrong with Taylor? Taylor?
Speaker 2 (37:19):
We have service in here. That's I didn't.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
Yeah, I'm sure you didn't get it. I'm sure you
just didn't get it.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
She tried.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Yeah, So I don't know.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
I'm out there and are you like I think sometimes
like in this community everybody does, like a lot of
us know each other, so it's like it, Yeah, you
just tell.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
People I went to Dallas on a work trip like
two weeks ago. I tell you I'm a Dallas ten
because I got hit on like three times really a
lesbian bar.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
Oh my god, I need to move to down We
all need to.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
Move to Dallas. But what it was that one of
the bartenders, who was off duty at that time or
off work, was like, we could tell you guys were
new here because me and my friend went and we
weren't from Dallas.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
But does that make you get that still? Is like
to me super flattering?
Speaker 2 (37:59):
Oh sure, yeah, I'm saying there's we all do know
each other in the same city sometimes, and so it's
like I'm not going to date my friend or my
other friend or my other friend. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but
when you go to a new city, So yeah, I
think that definitely plays into it.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Do you feel like that when you're out in Seattle,
Like it's rare for me to be out at a
gay event here where I see a new face.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
I don't.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
I don't think it's scarcity. I think I just do
the same shit over and over.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
Yeah, I think you're right. I think I see a
lot of the same faces just because I hang out
the same like crowd or whatever. But I'm not giving up. Hope.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
No, you don't have to give up hope. Hey, Seattle
is a gay city.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
It really is. Yeah, are you gay?
Speaker 1 (38:39):
I'm going to say somebody. You're going to meet someone
at the event. You heard it here October eighteenth. You're
meeting a woman. Yes, and you're going to be a
bad ass because you're like running it. So that's super attractive. Yeah,
I gotta go.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
We are doing a meet and greet.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
Yeah, we're doing a meet and greet. Yeah, talk about
more about the Social Queer because I miss that meeting.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Well so Saturday for the first hour.
The Social Queer is an organization in Seattle, and it's
it was built on a lot of stuff that you
and I talk about, is friendships later in life and
your thirties, forties, fifties. So she organizes these very creative
events around Seattle and brings people together. And so when
we were talking about our Social Hour from seven, doors
at seven, shows at eight. So from seven to eight,
(39:23):
she's gonna come in. We're gonna do kind of bracelets
or wristbands that kind of signify whether you like outdoors
or you have kids or whatever, and it'll be an
easy way for people to connect. And a few other things.
So that'll be seven to eight and then' want the show.
I think we've talked about it, or I probably have
talked about on the show where that's gonna be a
sex therapist. We're going to tell other people's coming out stories.
I don't get tired of those.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
I never get tired.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
I never get tired.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
I know, I know, it's like seeing a dolphin. I
just never gets tired of it. It never tired, never
bores me.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
Yes, and then we have a filmmaker coming out to
talk about that, and then.
Speaker 1 (39:52):
I'm so excited for you guys to meet her. She's kicked,
sounds really cool, so a total badass and another single
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
Well so it's not a single event, but there are
some options of you are, yes.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
There are some great options. Okay, so social queer. So
to me, it's like if you come alone, there's going
to be all this easiness to connect. You're not going
to be standing there because we're going to have reasons
for you to connect with people, whether it's you like
dogs or whatever. It is, like, how does she do that?
Speaker 2 (40:20):
Yeah, I mean we'll find out. I think at the event.
We also have some stuff on Friday night. If people
want to come to the soccer game, which I feel
like is pretty easy to come alone. You could just
watch the game and chit chat however much you want,
and then oh, you're going to the event tomorrow, Like,
I'll see you there. I've been to events. Going to
events are alone is hard, but we are going to
do everything we can to make that feel not hard
(40:42):
because we've all been there. I'm so much easier than.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
Going to a bar alone. Like this is like, yeah,
it's so much easier to do the event because it's
just like there is this thing to look at and do. Yeah,
totally talk about the after party.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
Oh well that was your idea, I know. So we're
going to clear all the chairs. It's like in this
ballroom space, we have a lesbian DJ who is gonna
play some tunes and I don't know, it's not gonna
be like clubby, but it'll be just you can kind
of stand in the corner and talk and sit and
have a conversation, or you can dance on the dance floor.
But we felt like Wild Roses our lesbian bar, and
it's a little small, and so we didn't want to bring,
(41:16):
you know, three hundred people to Wild roses and not
be able to get in, so we thought, why not
just keep them there?
Speaker 1 (41:21):
I love it. Yeah, it's amazing. Why I'm super super pumped.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
It's gonna be so fun. Yeah, I am too.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
Well, thank you so much for showing up. Yeah, thanks
for having me come into the gaborhood. I wish it
was daylight because you could see it.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
I know. Yes, Well next time I have to come
back time.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
For some reason, you end up here Saturday night. It's
a gay party right here.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
Might change change my floor.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
Maybe maybe tomorrow night you're gonna have such a blast
that you're going to be like, I'm staying through the weekend.
Speaker 2 (41:47):
Maybe I mean I am hanging out with an old flame.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
So yeah, that's what I'm saying. Couldn't turn into the weekend.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
I'll look, I'll look at my flaps.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
Okay, we'll tell her and you guys can count.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
Okay, maybe all right? I like this.
Speaker 1 (41:58):
Okay, thanks for having ye see you later, Bye bye.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
I want to support the Lesbian Chronicles podcast.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
Rate us and write a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
We'd love listener feedback. If you'd like to share your story,
email us at Melissa and Ali at gmail dot com.
That's Melissa M. E. L I, s A and Ali A.
L l I at gmail dot com. Or follow us
on Instagram at Lesbian Chronicles
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