March 7, 2023 • 42 mins
(Fictional) Euripides and Mnesilochus work to infiltrate the Thesmophoria festival and things get very, very weird. Help keep LTAMB going by subscribing to Liv's Patreon for bonus content!
CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. Given it's fiction, and typically involves gods and/or monsters, I'm not as deferential as I would be were I referencing the real thing.
Sources: Aristophanes' Thesmophoriasuzae/Women at the Thesmophoria, translations by Stephen Halliwell and George Theodoridis; The Thesmophoria entry from the Hellenic Museum; Aristophanes by James Robson; Aristophanes by Carlo Ferdinando Russo; Goddesses, Whores, Wives, and Slaves: Women in Classical Antiquity by Sarah B. Pomeroy.
Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here: mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Oh, hello, Hello, Hello, fellow nerds. This is let's talk
about Bit's baby. And I am that host of yours,
she who loves Euripides with her entire soul. Live once again.
I know that this play is not by Euripides, and
yet here I am making it all about him. But
(00:53):
it really is all about him, even if he had
nothing to do with writing it, at least as far
as we know. This week, we're driving back into Aristophanes'
play The Thesmophoria ZUSI the Women at the Thesmophoria, or
even the women at the Festival. Yes, it has been
translated into very many titles, regardless, it's the play about
(01:14):
the women's only festival, the one I detailed last week,
and where Aristophanes has Euripides becoming the subject of the
women's ire. Where we last left off, we've met this
fictional version of Euripides and his father in law min Asilicus.
They've traveled to the tragedian Agathon's house, where Euripides hoped
(01:35):
to ask him to dress as a woman to infiltrate
the festival and convince the women there that they don't
want Euripides dead, because you see, they might want him
dead for how he portrays women in his plays, which
is the slander that we will get back to, in
which we have not seen the end of. One of
the hardest things about writing episodes dedicated to aristophanes plays
(01:57):
is just trying to convey the comedy. He was seriously
funny in certain plays. I say that I typed this
before I read enough of this play. I don't believe
it's true in this play the frogs was funny anyway,
They were, at least back then, and some of them
are today really truly laugh out loud funny. But trying
(02:20):
to convey any of that in a narrative structure like
mine is tricky. So while these episodes are an interesting
way to look at the story and events and maybe
a few of the jokes in this play, you know,
if you really want to get the full comedy of
it all, you should read an Aristophanes play or two yourselves.
I can. I said that before I read all of this.
(02:40):
I don't know how I feel right now. You're gonna
get it. It's fine, but you know, if you want
the full experience of this ancient comedian, read one of
the plays. That's it. As I talked about at the
very end of last week's episode. Translation of plays is
translation broadly plays a huge role in comedy, and so
(03:02):
the translation I'm using primarily is by George Theodoretis, and
it certainly amps up the absurdity, the crass and crude
and very colloquial language, and what I'll call the minnisilicus
of it all. That translation is available for free online.
I've linked to it, so if you want to read
it yourself, have at it. Another thing I've learned the
(03:22):
further I get into this play is it just like
so it is a bit problematic in today's climate, a
bit more than I expected, though perhaps I should have
expected it. There's a certain subset of people who could
see the plot of this play as affirming some of
their nastier theories. So before we dive back into this narrative,
(03:44):
let me just remind you, lovely listeners, of one of
the things that this podcast finds to be most important
in the world, and that I stand for trans people
and their right to exist however they want. Here let's
talk about miss Baby. We accept and affirm trans people
for who they are, and we stand very strongly and
angrily against the type of people who would try to
deny that, and I want to call them turfs, but
(04:06):
I also hate that they get to call themselves feminists.
So you know, those people, the shitty ones who think
that people should not be allowed to live their lives
in the way that they feel is most true to themselves.
How this is a controversial topic I will never understand.
But you know, I'm not with those people that stand
(04:26):
with that author or that author herself, the one you
know I used to praise before she showed her true nature,
the one who will not be named. My point is
it transwomen or women, and not a threat to sis women.
The main threat to both arsis gendered men. But this
(04:47):
is a comedy, even if it's a comedy that plays
with gender in a very fourth century BC type of way.
So let's remember that this is from the fourth century
b C. And while and it's Aristophanes, and while myths
do often feature what we would understand to be trans people. Now,
if trans people were on Aristophanes's mind when he wrote
(05:07):
this play, he had a very different viewpoint. And also,
as you'll find out in this coming Conversation episode on Friday,
Aristophanes was seemingly a bit of a conservative douche bag.
So let's return to where we last last left off.
Last week, a very fictional version of Euripides is trying
(05:27):
to infiltrate a women's only festival in an effort to
convince them well not to kill him. And last we
heard it was the importance of translation and just how
much it can affect how we see these plays and
their characters. We finished last week's episode with our introduction
to the character of Agathon, the fictional version of a
very real tragedy in whose work also tragically does not
(05:49):
survive for us today, but who very much existed. Agathon
exited his house and practiced singing one of his own
choral odes. He sang as a women, singing to Demeter
and Persephone, to Artemis and Liedo, among others. And Minneselicus,
who's already made some very judgy comments about Agathon's gender expression,
(06:11):
announced loudly, among other things, quote by the holy Gods
of fucking by Gentialides herself, what a horny song full
of ardor. And if you're wondering about the so called
holy god of fucking Genitalides, that word means of childbirth.
So while it wasn't necessarily like that there was a
(06:32):
literal god of fucking, it's not an enormous leap. This
is episode two hundred and one Egregious Euripites slander Aristophanes
(06:56):
as women of the Thesmophoria. Now, Aristophane spends a lot
of this play playing around with gender expression. Agathon is
(07:16):
an explicitly feminized character, and Minnsilicus is not subtle in
his comments on it. Many things that he says would
today be construed as transphobia, but obviously that wasn't the
case back then, and it really is meant to be
both an attempt to play around with gender expression and
a means of commenting on Agathon himself and his sexuality.
(07:38):
I can't say anything about the very real man, but
the Agathon of this play is meant to just be
an over the top guy who enjoys playing with gender
who Aristophane seems to judge pretty heavily, who appear who
appreciates femininity. I'm going to be as conscious as possible
when sharing certain bits and quotes, but I'd want to
explain that at the top, we don't know about the
(08:01):
real Agathon. In this case, the version of him that
Aristophanes presents is almost certainly meant as an insult, but frankly,
he sounds amazing. Also, Mannesilicus is just a bit of
a twat frankly, but he is the one we are
supposed to like. We need to navigate him again. That
is the point of him. He's both the comic relief
(08:21):
in a way, and he's meant as a kind of
foil to point out the ways in which Agathon plays
with his gender expression. And once he's talked all about
the pussies and tongues of Agathon's song, as I quoted
to all last week, Minnesilcus goes on to comment directly
on Agathon's clothing and general appearance. This is important because
(08:41):
it gives us and the audience an idea of what
Agathon was dressed like on the stage, something we don't
know otherwise, because remember, there are no stage directions in
ancient Greek plays. Everything you read is invented by the
translators based on the context. But in moments like these,
when Minnesilica says that Agathon is holding a liar in
one hand, wearing a hair on his head and a
girdle around his waist. We get this distinct impression that
(09:04):
he presents himself as spanning both masculine and feminine ideals.
He's explicitly dressed as both a man and a woman,
as they would have been in ancient Athens. Of course,
Mannesilacas criticizes him for it and just questions his taste
in appearance. Fortunately, Agathon gives zero fox, which is his
(09:25):
best quality. He explains very patiently to Minnesolacas that he
simply wears what he wants and that he isn't bothered
by the man's judgment and jabs quote, I Agathon wear
only the clothes that suit my inspiration. And he goes
on to explain that he's writing about women, and thus
he's dressed as a woman. It gets him into the mindset.
(09:47):
The pair go on as Agathon explains that he's not
the first to do this. Other great poets have done
the same. He speaks of the poets Ibicus, Anacreon, and
al Kaius, saying they quote spiced up their poem with
all the harmony their muse could muster. Well, all these
poets used to wear lovely little girls caps and used
to swing the little bums like little Ionian girls, and
(10:10):
then he demonstrates exactly that, giving a little shimmy. Finally, though,
Euripides interrupts to explain his predicament to Agathon, telling him
how the women at the Thesmaphoria festival have planned to
convene and pass judgment upon him. He says, quote, I
have said some nasty things about women, So today, this
very day, they'll all gather at the Temple of Demeter
(10:32):
and t well, they'll devise a plot to have me
utterly and terminally destroyed. He goes on to explain that
his plan involves Agathon, dressed as a woman, infiltrating the
Thesmaphoria to mount his defense. And why don't you do it?
Agathon asks? In response, I mean, look at me, Euripides replies,
(10:55):
I'm an old man with a beard. I couldn't do it.
But you, you're young, enhanced him with that clean shaven face,
and you already enjoy dressing as a woman. Clearly you're
better suited. I imagine. Agathon rolls his eyes here, because
while Eurippdes is stating the truth and the obvious, Agathon
tells him, quote, well, don't expect us now to suffer
(11:16):
the consequences of your actions. He goes on quote embrace them, Euripides,
be honest about them, suffer them, And eventually Eurippdes asks
him why he really doesn't want to do this? Why
is Agathon afraid of going to the festival in his behalf,
Agathon says that they'll ruin him before he explains, when
(11:39):
Eurippudes asks, what on God's earth that means? Quote, darling,
I will be so beautiful, so much more beautiful than
any of them, that they'll think that I will be
stealing all of their hohrring business, that I'd be running
off with the goddess Aphrodite herself. Now do I love
(12:16):
the frequent use of the word horror in this play?
Not remotely. I'll only use it when I'm quoting to
be perfectly clear, still sex work aside. I do love
the idea that this guy had so much confidence in
himself that he legitimately thinks the women will be angry
because he's too beautiful. I really do love Agathon anyway.
(12:37):
Agathon is very clear he is not going to help Euripides,
and though Euripides presses it just briefly, he quickly moves
on to assuming that it's all over for him. Without
Agathon in disguise, he is sure to be killed by
these women unless well, right about now is when Minnesolicus
tells Euripides that basically Agathon can go to hell, and
(12:59):
hell hell Euripides in whatever way he can quote, let
me help you. I'll do anything you want anything, And
so Euripides gets an idea. He walks around Minesilcus, taking
him in, coming up with a plan. And it's good
to include shaving down Minnesilcus, just ridding him of all
(13:20):
of his body hair, because you know that's what it'll
take to convince a room full of women that there
isn't an old man in their midst, just the beard.
Minnesolcus is briefly hesitant to agree to this, but he
is loyal to Euripides, so he quickly agrees to what's
being asked, and with that, Euripides nods at Minnesolcus before
turning to Agathon and saying, quote, Agathon, you're always carrying
(13:44):
razors around, don't you? Could you let me borrow one
for a minute, to which Agathon replies, yeah, there's my
case of razors right over there. Have at him. I
really love Agathon, Like I know, he's this fictional version
of him, and ultimately Aristophanes is trying to make fun
of his lifestyle in general personality, but it just makes
me more and more intrigued by the real Agathon. He
(14:05):
seems like a fun guy if this is what Aristophanes
is choosing to satirize. Europes goes at Minnesilcus with the razor.
He's rough with him, trying to shave off his beard.
Before Minnesolcus, he yelps in pain and briefly tries to
run from Euripides with half of his beard shorn off.
He's brought back, though, convinced he needs to remain to
(14:27):
help Euripides with his very poor backup plan, and eventually
Euripides succeeds. Minnesilcus is now beardless, and this is a
real issue for Greek men, so he immediately makes a
wry joke about how he'll be thrown into the light
infantry of the Athenian army, itself a pun in the
ancient Greek just a fact to us. He's clean and shaven,
(14:50):
he looks like a young man again. Fortunately, Eurippdes is
there to tell him that he's going to look very pretty.
He grabs a mirror from Agathon's things and shows him
in his alas his new beardless look. The man's reaction
is to call out, quote, I look like pretty boy, Kleisthenes.
We will hear more about Kleisthenes again, But like most
(15:12):
of Aristophanes's characters, he's a very real person who was
often satirized for, like Agathon, being both effeminate and being
what one of these translations calls passively homosexual. Again, it's
just the thing about the ancient Greeks being totally cool
with gay relationships when it comes to the penetrate tour
versus the penetratid. There's going to be a lot of
(15:36):
jokes about that. And I'll stop reminding you the context. Now.
(15:57):
With Minnesolcas's beard gone, Euripides moves on. He's decided, you
see that Minnesolcus needs to be hairless elsewhere as well.
Hey you, He calls to Agathon's enslaved person, Hey, would
you grab me a torch? He's given the torch, and
he turns back to Minnesolcus. Quote, now bend over, And
with that, Eurippdes begins to singe the hair off of
(16:19):
Minnesolcus's ass the thing I did not expect to have
to share with you all. Why did I pick this
play again? Minneselkus cries out, running around the stage frantically quote,
my bomb's on fire. Fire, fire water, Someone is there
any water in the house? Help help me before someone
else's bum catches fire. I don't like Minnesilicus, but he
(16:45):
hasn't finished complaining. We've got to keep this play moving. Eventually,
Eurippdes takes him down. It's not a big deal. You
weren't actually on fire, he says. Then he turns to Agathon,
asking if you're not going to help me, then will
you at least lend this man some women's clothes? I
know you've got lots. Agathon basically just shrugs and tells
them to take whatever they want. He's not bothered, and
(17:06):
so they begin to rummage through Agathon's collection, selecting a
beautiful yellow dress, which they finaggle on to Manasilcus, adding
various other elements of women's clothing to really show her
up the whole look. He gets a wig offered specifically
by Agathon, a headscarf, some shoes, a cloak, the whole
outfit very fitting for a woman attending such a festival,
(17:29):
and lucky then Agathon just had it all available. Once
they've sorted the look, and Agathon's enjoyed just watching the
two men be ridiculous about the whole situation. He asks
to be wheeled back into his home, leaving Euripides and
Mansylcus to their schemes. With Agathon gone, Euripides takes in
Manesilcus and his disguise, examining him before noting, quote, now, mate,
(17:54):
remember to talk like a woman too. Convince everyone you're
a girl. Euripdes is about to send Minnesilicus off and
just like that to the festival, but Minnesilka stops him. Wait, wait, wait,
I'm not going until you swear that you'll save me
from whatever happens in there, that you'll do whatever you
need to do to save me. I do appreciate how
(18:17):
afraid they are of a festival of women. They're not
taking any chances. They know what a bunch of women
can do if they're threatened by a man. Eurypdes, though,
is a bit annoyed at having to do so. He
agrees to swear by all the gods in heaven, every
single one of them that he'll do his best to
save Minnesilicus if it comes to it, And in confirmation,
(18:38):
Minnesilicus quotes Euripdes his own words back to him, confirming
that he's sworn with both his heart and his head.
He doesn't want to be tricked like in one of Euripedes' plays.
But Eurippdes doesn't have a chance to confirm or deny
how he's made his oath because bells are ringing nearby,
signaling the start of the Thesma Faria. He rushes Minnesilicus
(19:03):
off towards the temple and himself leaves the stage on
the other side. And here is where I tell you
that between the two translations I'm using there is no
agreement as to whether Minnesilicus has actually had an enslaved
woman with him this entire time, who he calls Thrata,
or if she's been imaginary. He speaks to her, but
(19:23):
maybe she isn't real. Regardless if she is, she's been
there with him, and they leave the stage together, with
him disguised as a woman. Through all of Euripides's machinations
and Agathon's extensive collection of beautiful things, Missolka's quickly returns
(20:07):
to the stage, which is now set to be the
temple of Demeter and Persephony the Thesmophorion. Maybe he's got
an enslaved woman with him, Thrata. We'll go with that,
that she's real. He takes note of all the women
attending the festival, comments upon how there's some kind of
smoke all around them. He's coughing from it. The festival
(20:27):
is beginning, and the rituals, it seems, involves smoke. He
calls out, quote deliciously beautiful Goddess, help me survive all
this and help me get home safe. Afterwards, he makes
an offering to the goddesses, asking Thrata for a sacrificial cake.
Then he calls to the goddesses again, quote most Holy
(20:47):
Mother Demeter, and you two wise Persephony, make me very
very rich, so that I might make you lots of
offerings in return. If not, then at least let me
get out of this little scheme a lot, and with
my dick intact. Truly did not expect so many dick
jokes in a play about a women's festival. But that's
(21:08):
my mistake for underestimating Aristophanes. Frankly, I much prefer the tragedies.
He goes on to calling the goddesses to help his
daughter find a rich husband who's also a moron, and
he asks for his son to be given quote lots
of brains and common sense. Except the names he lists
(21:28):
for these so called children are both plays on their
respective genitalia. So either this man named his children after
colloquial names for genitals, or Aristophanes is just making more
weird jokes that I'm sure would be funnier, both on
the stage and in the ancient world. But here we are.
With that out of the way, he dismisses Threata, explaining
that slaves aren't allowed in the festival, and he settles
(21:51):
in to listen to the women's speeches. The chorus later
introduces the festival to the group of women attending the chorus.
She calls to Demeter and Persephone. She calls to Gaya
and to Hermes and to the graces. She asks for
good luck for Athens and that their festival they're gathering
be a successful one. The rest of the chorus chimes in,
(22:14):
now calling for signs from the heavens that the gods
are happy with their prayers. They call to many of
the other gods, to Apollo and Athena, Artemis and Poseidon,
the narids and forest nymphs. Finishing quote, let us join
in harmony, the strands of Apollo's golden lyar, and so
let this meeting of noble Athenian women end splendidly. The
(22:40):
chorus leader resumes her speech. There's more calls to the gods,
perhaps in itself a means of making fun of Euripdes'
writing style and reliance on gods. But then she gets
explicit quote, let us all pray that if any man
schemes a scheme or plots a plot with Euripides and
with the Persians to cause harm or to overthrow the
women's republic, if any man tries to establish himself or
(23:04):
establish some other man as a tyrant of the women's republic,
if any man jobs in a woman who has claimed
another woman's child as her own, if any female slave
has knowledge of her mistress's secret affairs, dabs her into
her husband. She goes on and on, getting very specific
with her accusations or rather prayers against people who might
(23:25):
do all these stereotypes of women and men. All of
this is both meant to satirize women and men, or
their opinions of either one and the stereotypes surrounding both genders,
but it's also meant to mimic speeches that would take
place at Athenian assemblies. These women are seemingly both mirroring
the political machinations of Athens and imagining a world where
(23:46):
they're the ones running things. It's not entirely clear if
that's the intention. My other translation doesn't use that phrase
of women's republic, but it's interesting all the same and
certainly meant to have women mirroring the politics of Athens,
only being able to insert themselves and form opinions on
the world around them. That's my interpretation. It's definitely not
what Aristophanes means. I'm sure he's making fun of something
(24:10):
or someone that I am just not entirely grasping, because
that is what he does. The rest of the chorus
jimes in, adding their own curses towards women who betray
others or who betray Athens in ways the leader is
just laid out and more, and they end it quote
Almighty Zeus, we are women, but we ask you nevertheless
to hear our prayers and bring the rest of the
(24:32):
gods to our side and protect us. Love that they
have to clarify that they're women, like I know, we're
just women, Zeus, But could you protect us anyway pretty please?
But this isn't about Zeus, fortunately, and it immediately transitions
to the task at hand, At least, the task at
hand in Aristophanes is exaggerated, an invented version of the thesmaphoria.
(24:55):
They begin to speak of the gathering that's happened that day,
one that is meant to decide the fate of Euripides,
who these women consider to be a criminal gods. I
do hope Eurippdes was in on whatever joke Aristophanes was
making with this play. I don't think he was, but
he does not deserve it. Is there anyone who would
(25:36):
like to speak on the matter of Euripdes' crimes? The
chorus asks, once they've announced, what today is for determining
Euripides is guilt me? A woman calls immediately. Her name
is Mika, and she puts on a garland. When she's asked,
stands at the head of the group and prepares herself.
The chorus shushes those around, call it for silence, an
(25:57):
announcing quote, Mica is clearing her throat, and like a
real politician, she is preparing to make a long speech.
And this is where we learn the supposed details of Euripides' crimes,
the things these women believe he's done in his plays.
And I remind you once more that this is Aristophanes' invention.
This Euripides and these women seemingly angry with him, are,
(26:19):
as far as we know, extremely invented, entirely invented by Aristophanes.
Because we all know and agree Euripides is perfect, Mika announces, quote,
is there an insult he hasn't hit us with? Yet?
There is no indignity, not a foul word he hasn't
(26:39):
used to sally our name with. Give the bastard an audience,
give him a chorus, give him some actors, and there
will be no end to the garbage he'll find to
defame us with. She goes on claiming that Euripides calls
women every horrible thing she can imagine. Quote, lecherous, seducers
(27:00):
of man, alcoholics, chatterbox is treacherous, sick in the head,
a pain in the arts of our husbands, you name it.
Then she explains that the real issue is that their
husbands then watch Euripides's plays because you know, women aren't allowed,
mind you. She doesn't say as much, but the husbands
come home to them after watching the plays, and instead
(27:22):
of giving their wives a kind word of hello, they
give them suspicious looks and begin searching for hidden lovers.
The more Maker goes on ranting about Eurippides and all
the horrible things he's put into the men's heads, the
more it becomes clear that the joke here is that,
at least with many of the things they claim of Euripides,
it isn't so much that he isn't speaking the truth,
(27:44):
but that he's giving away all of their secrets. It's
harder for them to hide all their lovers now that
their husbands are watching eurippides plays. It's harder for a
woman who can't have a baby to pass off another's
as her own. It's harder for young women to marry
older men. She says that their houses are all now
locked up, that the men have hidden everything away, and
(28:07):
that they have knew better spartan locks and keys. She
explains that before the women knew exactly how to break
their husband's locks, it was easy, but not now. She
finishes her speech by saying, quote, so I move, therefore, ladies,
that we get rid of this disgusting little pest Euripides
(28:27):
by poisoning him or whatever, or do anything. They will
definitely knock him dead. Once the applause for her speech
has died out, the chorus takes note that quote, what
an intelligent, eloquent, subtle speech this woman just uttered, subtle, indeed,
definitely not Aristophanes, playing on the nature of politicians and
(28:49):
their speeches and insulting women at that. They praise her
a bit more, comparing her to politicians of the time,
noting the sheer perfection of her speech and her argument.
And she's not alone. Another woman takes the garland and
has her own speech about why Euripides should be punished.
She acknowledges the things that he said about women, but
her own complaint is that she believes he's convinced too
(29:12):
many Athenian men not to believe in the gods. She
says that now they all believe there are no gods,
and that affects her garland selling business. How it affects it,
I do not know, and the end notes do not
elaborate on that. So we must either trust her or
trust that Aristophanes is making some additional commentary here. She
does finish the speech by saying that she has to
(29:33):
go because twenty men have ordered garlands and she must
go weave them. So I don't know, maybe business isn't
that bad. She also tosses in an insult to Euripides
that's used quite often. He gets made fun of for
having a father who sold vegetables, or perhaps specifically, who
sold cabbage. No one likes a cabbage seller, I guess.
(30:13):
Once more, the chorus praises this woman's speech. They have
no complaints and announced that she made her argument perfectly.
It's all been made quite clear that Euripides simply must
be punished for his myriad crimes. And this this is
when Minnesilcus makes himself known. He rushes to the stage,
(30:35):
prepared to mount a strong defense of his son in law.
And frankly, he's been the most obnoxious character so far,
but at least someone's going to defend my beloved Euripides
against the Aristophanean slander. I think I'm going to regret
saying that, because his defender is still written by Aristophanes
and twelve that's pretty clear, because Minnesilicas fills his defensive
(30:57):
speech with more weird stereotype of how we are to
believe women speak and behave. He says things like girls, girls, girls, Oh,
believe me, girls, I understand you completely. Golly gosh, darlings. Gross. Anyway,
he goes on. He is disguised as a woman, mind you.
He tells the women that he agrees with them completely.
Eurippdes is awful. I hate him completely, he says. I
(31:21):
swear on my own children that I do actually hate him.
I promise God's He's convincing, isn't he? But he says,
after this strong reassurance, that he too hates Eurippdes. He
promises he really hates him. He's bad. He says, let's
think about this. Let's think about this really closely. It's
only women here, he reassures them. No one else will
(31:41):
ever know what's been said. He asks, what's the point
of all these accusations. Sure, he's given away a few
of our secrets, but gods know he knows more of
them that he's keeping silent. Quote, golly gosh, thousands of them. Now,
this golly gosh nonsense. I can't find what would it
be another translation or in the Greek, but it's really something.
(32:04):
I don't know how I feel about the Theodoretas translation,
but we are stuck with it now. Regardless. The point
is that he's playing some absurd version of a woman,
and then he regales the women with a long list
of absolutely absurd, invented stories and attempt to suggest that
the women are exactly as Euripides claims, and actually he's
holding on to most of their secrets. He's barely giving
(32:26):
away any that's how bad they are. He has this
fake woman says that he personally, just days after he
was married, had a lover sneak in let. His husband
tried to stop him, and he lied, saying he had
a stomach ache before sneaking out and having his lover
take him by the altar of Apollo while he hung
onto the Daphne tree. Now, pronouns are tricky here. I'm
(32:49):
not going to say she, because I don't want to
suggest that this is anything other than an ancient comedic
story of a man infiltrating a women's space. But obviously
Mannesilkus is pretending to be a woman as he's telling
this story. Still Eurippdes never mentioned that story. He reminds
the women he's keeping that secret. He goes on quote
and has he said anything about the fact that when
(33:10):
we get desperate we screw our slaves and our mule drivers. No,
he hasn't. What about the morning after the night before,
you know, the mornings we chew up all the garlic
that are so that our hubbies won't suspect us of
screwing around while the poor buggers were spending the whole
night guarding the city walls. Have you seen Eurippdes say
anything about that? Well? Have you? Of course not? Kind
(33:36):
of wish I hadn't decided to cover this play, but
here we are. The point, to be clear, is to
play on wild and over the top stereotypes. I don't
think even Aristophanes is suggesting that women did these things,
or I hope not, But I mean maybe we should
find it refreshing to even have the notion mentioned that
(33:56):
women could be like doing things for themselves, finding pleasure
outside of their marriages if they needed to. I mean,
that's not the point. I don't know. It's just kind
of nice to see flawed women in play. Still, even
if the whole point is that they're all mad that
Euripides portrays flawed women in his plays. It's dark can
having trouble, We must power through. I will not leave
(34:19):
this unfinished just because it's fucking weird and highly problematic.
Minnesolka's goes on, He's got an enormous fucking speech about
the things. He suggests that women do, things that Euripdes
isn't tattling on. He says, like, you know, when you're
trying to hide your boyfriend from your husband, so you
tuck him under your dress, you know, normal stuff. Or
(34:40):
a woman who convinced her husband that she was in
labor for ten days, all while secretly she bought another
woman's baby to pass off as theirs. Sure, of course,
the logistics of that, Minnesolka suggests, meant that the woman
bringing the baby to the new home kept him hidden
in a large pot with honeycomb in his mouth so
he wouldn't cry again. You know, totally normal things that
(35:01):
women do to deceive men. Nasilicas finishes this speech by
saying that Eurippdes quote gives us no more hassle than
we deserve. Honestly and well, you might imagine the course
of women at the thest before. I do not take
this speech well. The course is very angry, and this
translation uses a lot of words that I don't care
(35:21):
to use, so won't be quoting what they say. But
they are not happy about the things Minnasilica suggested that
women do, and I mean, do we blame them? We
do not? We do? However, find ick in this translation.
I'm going to paraphrase more now because this dude really
loves to use the words like slot and whore. Good times. Anyway,
(35:42):
there's lots of jabs at Eurippes's character choices, how he
writes about women who've been assaulted, as though that's only
meant to make women look bad, which just anyway, this
play is messed up. Poor Fhiedra gets a lot of
blame for Eurippdes' play, Hippolytus and Penelope gets a lot
of praise. Not cliche at all. They all seem to
wish Euripdes would just write plays about women like Penelope
(36:04):
instead make everyone look good. This play is a misogynists
fever dream women. They hate him God, they only want
to see virtuous women like Penelope on stage. Anyway, This
is what I love about actual, real Euripides, because he
didn't just write plays about women like Penelope, or even Dianara,
(36:28):
who's a badass but also very much still the model
woman in other ways beyond you know, accidentally killing her husband.
I meanwhile, Euripdes has given us Medeia and Fidra and Helen.
But again, we are too deep into display for me
to give it up now, no matter how many times
I've considered it. Minnesolcus goes on and on and on,
proposing countless stories of women doing absolutely absurd things. They're
(36:50):
meant to play on stereotypes, meant to amplify the stereotypical
way men see women, and vice versa, but they are
still painful to read. The fighting between Mansilicus and the
women devolves, with one of the women who spoke earlier, Mica,
making the biggest arguments against Minnesilicus's misogynist bullshit. She's ready
(37:11):
to fight the man, ready to punch him straight in
the face. I mean, good for her. But before she
can get to do that, they're interrupted by Clysbanies, a
man who is described similarly to Agathon. He's a feminate
and he's the bottom, and his relationship and thus according
to the Athenians, he's basically a woman. Remind me why
(37:33):
I thought covering this play would be a good idea,
you know, I originally thought this play would make for
a good fit for International Women's Month, you know, because
(37:57):
it's about a women's only festival. Why on Gaya's Earth
do I think I can just assume that a play
will be a good fit for something, and one written
by Aristophanes, no less an episode about just the Thesmophoria.
That would have been great. Silly of me to assume
that Aristophanes didn't just write a misogynist screed and place
(38:18):
it at the Thesmophoria. I'm sure there are arguments against
that reading, and I can't wait to hear them, But
right now I am too deep into this to see
anything else. But I did have a conversation episode that
I recorded before recording this, thankfully that I can now
assure you is coming out on Friday, and won't reassure
(38:38):
you of everything, but does make this play better in
its own way. Again, we're just too deep into this
for me to give up in the series, but I
seriously considered it. We've only got one more episode though,
to finish it. Off and maybe have Aristophanes redeem himself. Gods,
I miss reading actual Euripides and speaking of International Women's Month,
(39:02):
and how poor a choice this play was for it.
Once next week's last episode on the thousand before ZUSA
is sorted, We're going to get to some actually good
and interesting women's specific episodes. Do not worry. That's mostly
for me. It's reassuring myself because God's this play. In
some ways it's entertaining and interesting and worth covering, and
(39:24):
in some ways it is not. But regardless, I do
wish I hadn't done it at this moment, but here
we are. Anyway to finish off this attempt at a
comedic episode. God, So I didn't make it very funny,
and I'm sorry for that. But we will end as
we always do, with a reading of a five star
review from Apple Podcasts. This one comes from a user
named hulk Car from the States. I'm not going to
(39:47):
read the entire thing because it was super long, but
super duper lovely, and it was long because this person
actually went through the trouble of updating their earlier review
after they had finished binging the whole show. And God's
I appreciate that so much, so seriously, thank you. She's
lived and she loves this stuff. I only recently, about
(40:09):
three weeks ago, learned of this podcast and started listening
from the first episode. I'm now on episode seventy, so
I guess you can say I'm hooked. Addendum February twenty third,
twenty twenty three. I discover this podcast in August of
twenty twenty two and decided to listen to every episode
from the beginning to the present. That's over five years
of an ongoing podcast, so the finish line moved steadily along.
(40:29):
Today I achieved my goal listening to the most recent
episode from two days ago, and I must say my
enjoyment of this podcast has only increased overtime. It's been
great to hear hosts live improve over the years and
her work and her enthusiasm and excitement increase. It's been
a fun ride, and I'm looking forward to finally to
listening to episodes in real time. Thank you Live Albert. Honestly,
(40:51):
thank you that was really nice. I really my favorite
thing is when people see what I see, which is
just how much better and more interesting the show has
gotten overtime, So thank you. Let's talk about mis Baby
is written produced by me Live Albert Michael Smith is
the Hermes to my Olympians and handles so many podcasts
related things. No, it was not Michaela's idea to cover
the those before a Zuosai. That is totally on me.
(41:14):
Stephanie Folly works to transcribe the podcast for YouTube captions
and accessibility. The podcast is hosted and monetized by iHeartMedia.
Help me continue bringing you the world of Greek mythology
and the Ancient Mediterranean by becoming a patron, where I'll
get bonus episodes and more. Visit patreon dot com slash
Smith's Baby, or click the link in this episode's description.
You nerds are all the best, and I seriously love
(41:35):
you for staying with me through this episode. Just one more,
I promise, and hopefully it'll redeem itself. Time will tell
I am living. I love this shit, even if I'm
learning I do not particularly care for Aristophanes
Oh, hello, Hello, Hello, fellow nerds. This is let's talk
about Bit's baby. And I am that host of yours,
she who loves Euripides with her entire soul. Live once again.
I know that this play is not by Euripides, and
yet here I am making it all about him. But
(00:53):
it really is all about him, even if he had
nothing to do with writing it, at least as far
as we know. This week, we're driving back into Aristophanes'
play The Thesmophoria ZUSI the Women at the Thesmophoria, or
even the women at the Festival. Yes, it has been
translated into very many titles, regardless, it's the play about
(01:14):
the women's only festival, the one I detailed last week,
and where Aristophanes has Euripides becoming the subject of the
women's ire. Where we last left off, we've met this
fictional version of Euripides and his father in law min Asilicus.
They've traveled to the tragedian Agathon's house, where Euripides hoped
(01:35):
to ask him to dress as a woman to infiltrate
the festival and convince the women there that they don't
want Euripides dead, because you see, they might want him
dead for how he portrays women in his plays, which
is the slander that we will get back to, in
which we have not seen the end of. One of
the hardest things about writing episodes dedicated to aristophanes plays
(01:57):
is just trying to convey the comedy. He was seriously
funny in certain plays. I say that I typed this
before I read enough of this play. I don't believe
it's true in this play the frogs was funny anyway,
They were, at least back then, and some of them
are today really truly laugh out loud funny. But trying
(02:20):
to convey any of that in a narrative structure like
mine is tricky. So while these episodes are an interesting
way to look at the story and events and maybe
a few of the jokes in this play, you know,
if you really want to get the full comedy of
it all, you should read an Aristophanes play or two yourselves.
I can. I said that before I read all of this.
(02:40):
I don't know how I feel right now. You're gonna
get it. It's fine, but you know, if you want
the full experience of this ancient comedian, read one of
the plays. That's it. As I talked about at the
very end of last week's episode. Translation of plays is
translation broadly plays a huge role in comedy, and so
(03:02):
the translation I'm using primarily is by George Theodoretis, and
it certainly amps up the absurdity, the crass and crude
and very colloquial language, and what I'll call the minnisilicus
of it all. That translation is available for free online.
I've linked to it, so if you want to read
it yourself, have at it. Another thing I've learned the
(03:22):
further I get into this play is it just like
so it is a bit problematic in today's climate, a
bit more than I expected, though perhaps I should have
expected it. There's a certain subset of people who could
see the plot of this play as affirming some of
their nastier theories. So before we dive back into this narrative,
(03:44):
let me just remind you, lovely listeners, of one of
the things that this podcast finds to be most important
in the world, and that I stand for trans people
and their right to exist however they want. Here let's
talk about miss Baby. We accept and affirm trans people
for who they are, and we stand very strongly and
angrily against the type of people who would try to
deny that, and I want to call them turfs, but
(04:06):
I also hate that they get to call themselves feminists.
So you know, those people, the shitty ones who think
that people should not be allowed to live their lives
in the way that they feel is most true to themselves.
How this is a controversial topic I will never understand.
But you know, I'm not with those people that stand
(04:26):
with that author or that author herself, the one you
know I used to praise before she showed her true nature,
the one who will not be named. My point is
it transwomen or women, and not a threat to sis women.
The main threat to both arsis gendered men. But this
(04:47):
is a comedy, even if it's a comedy that plays
with gender in a very fourth century BC type of way.
So let's remember that this is from the fourth century
b C. And while and it's Aristophanes, and while myths
do often feature what we would understand to be trans people. Now,
if trans people were on Aristophanes's mind when he wrote
(05:07):
this play, he had a very different viewpoint. And also,
as you'll find out in this coming Conversation episode on Friday,
Aristophanes was seemingly a bit of a conservative douche bag.
So let's return to where we last last left off.
Last week, a very fictional version of Euripides is trying
(05:27):
to infiltrate a women's only festival in an effort to
convince them well not to kill him. And last we
heard it was the importance of translation and just how
much it can affect how we see these plays and
their characters. We finished last week's episode with our introduction
to the character of Agathon, the fictional version of a
very real tragedy in whose work also tragically does not
(05:49):
survive for us today, but who very much existed. Agathon
exited his house and practiced singing one of his own
choral odes. He sang as a women, singing to Demeter
and Persephone, to Artemis and Liedo, among others. And Minneselicus,
who's already made some very judgy comments about Agathon's gender expression,
(06:11):
announced loudly, among other things, quote by the holy Gods
of fucking by Gentialides herself, what a horny song full
of ardor. And if you're wondering about the so called
holy god of fucking Genitalides, that word means of childbirth.
So while it wasn't necessarily like that there was a
(06:32):
literal god of fucking, it's not an enormous leap. This
is episode two hundred and one Egregious Euripites slander Aristophanes
(06:56):
as women of the Thesmophoria. Now, Aristophane spends a lot
of this play playing around with gender expression. Agathon is
(07:16):
an explicitly feminized character, and Minnsilicus is not subtle in
his comments on it. Many things that he says would
today be construed as transphobia, but obviously that wasn't the
case back then, and it really is meant to be
both an attempt to play around with gender expression and
a means of commenting on Agathon himself and his sexuality.
(07:38):
I can't say anything about the very real man, but
the Agathon of this play is meant to just be
an over the top guy who enjoys playing with gender
who Aristophane seems to judge pretty heavily, who appear who
appreciates femininity. I'm going to be as conscious as possible
when sharing certain bits and quotes, but I'd want to
explain that at the top, we don't know about the
(08:01):
real Agathon. In this case, the version of him that
Aristophanes presents is almost certainly meant as an insult, but frankly,
he sounds amazing. Also, Mannesilicus is just a bit of
a twat frankly, but he is the one we are
supposed to like. We need to navigate him again. That
is the point of him. He's both the comic relief
(08:21):
in a way, and he's meant as a kind of
foil to point out the ways in which Agathon plays
with his gender expression. And once he's talked all about
the pussies and tongues of Agathon's song, as I quoted
to all last week, Minnesilcus goes on to comment directly
on Agathon's clothing and general appearance. This is important because
(08:41):
it gives us and the audience an idea of what
Agathon was dressed like on the stage, something we don't
know otherwise, because remember, there are no stage directions in
ancient Greek plays. Everything you read is invented by the
translators based on the context. But in moments like these,
when Minnesilica says that Agathon is holding a liar in
one hand, wearing a hair on his head and a
girdle around his waist. We get this distinct impression that
(09:04):
he presents himself as spanning both masculine and feminine ideals.
He's explicitly dressed as both a man and a woman,
as they would have been in ancient Athens. Of course,
Mannesilacas criticizes him for it and just questions his taste
in appearance. Fortunately, Agathon gives zero fox, which is his
(09:25):
best quality. He explains very patiently to Minnesolacas that he
simply wears what he wants and that he isn't bothered
by the man's judgment and jabs quote, I Agathon wear
only the clothes that suit my inspiration. And he goes
on to explain that he's writing about women, and thus
he's dressed as a woman. It gets him into the mindset.
(09:47):
The pair go on as Agathon explains that he's not
the first to do this. Other great poets have done
the same. He speaks of the poets Ibicus, Anacreon, and
al Kaius, saying they quote spiced up their poem with
all the harmony their muse could muster. Well, all these
poets used to wear lovely little girls caps and used
to swing the little bums like little Ionian girls, and
(10:10):
then he demonstrates exactly that, giving a little shimmy. Finally, though,
Euripides interrupts to explain his predicament to Agathon, telling him
how the women at the Thesmaphoria festival have planned to
convene and pass judgment upon him. He says, quote, I
have said some nasty things about women, So today, this
very day, they'll all gather at the Temple of Demeter
(10:32):
and t well, they'll devise a plot to have me
utterly and terminally destroyed. He goes on to explain that
his plan involves Agathon, dressed as a woman, infiltrating the
Thesmaphoria to mount his defense. And why don't you do it?
Agathon asks? In response, I mean, look at me, Euripides replies,
(10:55):
I'm an old man with a beard. I couldn't do it.
But you, you're young, enhanced him with that clean shaven face,
and you already enjoy dressing as a woman. Clearly you're
better suited. I imagine. Agathon rolls his eyes here, because
while Eurippdes is stating the truth and the obvious, Agathon
tells him, quote, well, don't expect us now to suffer
(11:16):
the consequences of your actions. He goes on quote embrace them, Euripides,
be honest about them, suffer them, And eventually Eurippdes asks
him why he really doesn't want to do this? Why
is Agathon afraid of going to the festival in his behalf,
Agathon says that they'll ruin him before he explains, when
(11:39):
Eurippudes asks, what on God's earth that means? Quote, darling,
I will be so beautiful, so much more beautiful than
any of them, that they'll think that I will be
stealing all of their hohrring business, that I'd be running
off with the goddess Aphrodite herself. Now do I love
(12:16):
the frequent use of the word horror in this play?
Not remotely. I'll only use it when I'm quoting to
be perfectly clear, still sex work aside. I do love
the idea that this guy had so much confidence in
himself that he legitimately thinks the women will be angry
because he's too beautiful. I really do love Agathon anyway.
(12:37):
Agathon is very clear he is not going to help Euripides,
and though Euripides presses it just briefly, he quickly moves
on to assuming that it's all over for him. Without
Agathon in disguise, he is sure to be killed by
these women unless well, right about now is when Minnesolicus
tells Euripides that basically Agathon can go to hell, and
(12:59):
hell hell Euripides in whatever way he can quote, let
me help you. I'll do anything you want anything, And
so Euripides gets an idea. He walks around Minesilcus, taking
him in, coming up with a plan. And it's good
to include shaving down Minnesilcus, just ridding him of all
(13:20):
of his body hair, because you know that's what it'll
take to convince a room full of women that there
isn't an old man in their midst, just the beard.
Minnesolcus is briefly hesitant to agree to this, but he
is loyal to Euripides, so he quickly agrees to what's
being asked, and with that, Euripides nods at Minnesolcus before
turning to Agathon and saying, quote, Agathon, you're always carrying
(13:44):
razors around, don't you? Could you let me borrow one
for a minute, to which Agathon replies, yeah, there's my
case of razors right over there. Have at him. I
really love Agathon, Like I know, he's this fictional version
of him, and ultimately Aristophanes is trying to make fun
of his lifestyle in general personality, but it just makes
me more and more intrigued by the real Agathon. He
(14:05):
seems like a fun guy if this is what Aristophanes
is choosing to satirize. Europes goes at Minnesilcus with the razor.
He's rough with him, trying to shave off his beard.
Before Minnesolcus, he yelps in pain and briefly tries to
run from Euripides with half of his beard shorn off.
He's brought back, though, convinced he needs to remain to
(14:27):
help Euripides with his very poor backup plan, and eventually
Euripides succeeds. Minnesilcus is now beardless, and this is a
real issue for Greek men, so he immediately makes a
wry joke about how he'll be thrown into the light
infantry of the Athenian army, itself a pun in the
ancient Greek just a fact to us. He's clean and shaven,
(14:50):
he looks like a young man again. Fortunately, Eurippdes is
there to tell him that he's going to look very pretty.
He grabs a mirror from Agathon's things and shows him
in his alas his new beardless look. The man's reaction
is to call out, quote, I look like pretty boy, Kleisthenes.
We will hear more about Kleisthenes again, But like most
(15:12):
of Aristophanes's characters, he's a very real person who was
often satirized for, like Agathon, being both effeminate and being
what one of these translations calls passively homosexual. Again, it's
just the thing about the ancient Greeks being totally cool
with gay relationships when it comes to the penetrate tour
versus the penetratid. There's going to be a lot of
(15:36):
jokes about that. And I'll stop reminding you the context. Now.
(15:57):
With Minnesolcas's beard gone, Euripides moves on. He's decided, you
see that Minnesolcus needs to be hairless elsewhere as well.
Hey you, He calls to Agathon's enslaved person, Hey, would
you grab me a torch? He's given the torch, and
he turns back to Minnesolcus. Quote, now bend over, And
with that, Eurippdes begins to singe the hair off of
(16:19):
Minnesolcus's ass the thing I did not expect to have
to share with you all. Why did I pick this
play again? Minneselkus cries out, running around the stage frantically quote,
my bomb's on fire. Fire, fire water, Someone is there
any water in the house? Help help me before someone
else's bum catches fire. I don't like Minnesilicus, but he
(16:45):
hasn't finished complaining. We've got to keep this play moving. Eventually,
Eurippdes takes him down. It's not a big deal. You
weren't actually on fire, he says. Then he turns to Agathon,
asking if you're not going to help me, then will
you at least lend this man some women's clothes? I
know you've got lots. Agathon basically just shrugs and tells
them to take whatever they want. He's not bothered, and
(17:06):
so they begin to rummage through Agathon's collection, selecting a
beautiful yellow dress, which they finaggle on to Manasilcus, adding
various other elements of women's clothing to really show her
up the whole look. He gets a wig offered specifically
by Agathon, a headscarf, some shoes, a cloak, the whole
outfit very fitting for a woman attending such a festival,
(17:29):
and lucky then Agathon just had it all available. Once
they've sorted the look, and Agathon's enjoyed just watching the
two men be ridiculous about the whole situation. He asks
to be wheeled back into his home, leaving Euripides and
Mansylcus to their schemes. With Agathon gone, Euripides takes in
Manesilcus and his disguise, examining him before noting, quote, now, mate,
(17:54):
remember to talk like a woman too. Convince everyone you're
a girl. Euripdes is about to send Minnesilicus off and
just like that to the festival, but Minnesilka stops him. Wait, wait, wait,
I'm not going until you swear that you'll save me
from whatever happens in there, that you'll do whatever you
need to do to save me. I do appreciate how
(18:17):
afraid they are of a festival of women. They're not
taking any chances. They know what a bunch of women
can do if they're threatened by a man. Eurypdes, though,
is a bit annoyed at having to do so. He
agrees to swear by all the gods in heaven, every
single one of them that he'll do his best to
save Minnesilicus if it comes to it, And in confirmation,
(18:38):
Minnesilicus quotes Euripdes his own words back to him, confirming
that he's sworn with both his heart and his head.
He doesn't want to be tricked like in one of Euripedes' plays.
But Eurippdes doesn't have a chance to confirm or deny
how he's made his oath because bells are ringing nearby,
signaling the start of the Thesma Faria. He rushes Minnesilicus
(19:03):
off towards the temple and himself leaves the stage on
the other side. And here is where I tell you
that between the two translations I'm using there is no
agreement as to whether Minnesilicus has actually had an enslaved
woman with him this entire time, who he calls Thrata,
or if she's been imaginary. He speaks to her, but
(19:23):
maybe she isn't real. Regardless if she is, she's been
there with him, and they leave the stage together, with
him disguised as a woman. Through all of Euripides's machinations
and Agathon's extensive collection of beautiful things, Missolka's quickly returns
(20:07):
to the stage, which is now set to be the
temple of Demeter and Persephony the Thesmophorion. Maybe he's got
an enslaved woman with him, Thrata. We'll go with that,
that she's real. He takes note of all the women
attending the festival, comments upon how there's some kind of
smoke all around them. He's coughing from it. The festival
(20:27):
is beginning, and the rituals, it seems, involves smoke. He
calls out, quote deliciously beautiful Goddess, help me survive all
this and help me get home safe. Afterwards, he makes
an offering to the goddesses, asking Thrata for a sacrificial cake.
Then he calls to the goddesses again, quote most Holy
(20:47):
Mother Demeter, and you two wise Persephony, make me very
very rich, so that I might make you lots of
offerings in return. If not, then at least let me
get out of this little scheme a lot, and with
my dick intact. Truly did not expect so many dick
jokes in a play about a women's festival. But that's
(21:08):
my mistake for underestimating Aristophanes. Frankly, I much prefer the tragedies.
He goes on to calling the goddesses to help his
daughter find a rich husband who's also a moron, and
he asks for his son to be given quote lots
of brains and common sense. Except the names he lists
(21:28):
for these so called children are both plays on their
respective genitalia. So either this man named his children after
colloquial names for genitals, or Aristophanes is just making more
weird jokes that I'm sure would be funnier, both on
the stage and in the ancient world. But here we are.
With that out of the way, he dismisses Threata, explaining
that slaves aren't allowed in the festival, and he settles
(21:51):
in to listen to the women's speeches. The chorus later
introduces the festival to the group of women attending the chorus.
She calls to Demeter and Persephone. She calls to Gaya
and to Hermes and to the graces. She asks for
good luck for Athens and that their festival they're gathering
be a successful one. The rest of the chorus chimes in,
(22:14):
now calling for signs from the heavens that the gods
are happy with their prayers. They call to many of
the other gods, to Apollo and Athena, Artemis and Poseidon,
the narids and forest nymphs. Finishing quote, let us join
in harmony, the strands of Apollo's golden lyar, and so
let this meeting of noble Athenian women end splendidly. The
(22:40):
chorus leader resumes her speech. There's more calls to the gods,
perhaps in itself a means of making fun of Euripdes'
writing style and reliance on gods. But then she gets
explicit quote, let us all pray that if any man
schemes a scheme or plots a plot with Euripides and
with the Persians to cause harm or to overthrow the
women's republic, if any man tries to establish himself or
(23:04):
establish some other man as a tyrant of the women's republic,
if any man jobs in a woman who has claimed
another woman's child as her own, if any female slave
has knowledge of her mistress's secret affairs, dabs her into
her husband. She goes on and on, getting very specific
with her accusations or rather prayers against people who might
(23:25):
do all these stereotypes of women and men. All of
this is both meant to satirize women and men, or
their opinions of either one and the stereotypes surrounding both genders,
but it's also meant to mimic speeches that would take
place at Athenian assemblies. These women are seemingly both mirroring
the political machinations of Athens and imagining a world where
(23:46):
they're the ones running things. It's not entirely clear if
that's the intention. My other translation doesn't use that phrase
of women's republic, but it's interesting all the same and
certainly meant to have women mirroring the politics of Athens,
only being able to insert themselves and form opinions on
the world around them. That's my interpretation. It's definitely not
what Aristophanes means. I'm sure he's making fun of something
(24:10):
or someone that I am just not entirely grasping, because
that is what he does. The rest of the chorus
jimes in, adding their own curses towards women who betray
others or who betray Athens in ways the leader is
just laid out and more, and they end it quote
Almighty Zeus, we are women, but we ask you nevertheless
to hear our prayers and bring the rest of the
(24:32):
gods to our side and protect us. Love that they
have to clarify that they're women, like I know, we're
just women, Zeus, But could you protect us anyway pretty please?
But this isn't about Zeus, fortunately, and it immediately transitions
to the task at hand, At least, the task at
hand in Aristophanes is exaggerated, an invented version of the thesmaphoria.
(24:55):
They begin to speak of the gathering that's happened that day,
one that is meant to decide the fate of Euripides,
who these women consider to be a criminal gods. I
do hope Eurippdes was in on whatever joke Aristophanes was
making with this play. I don't think he was, but
he does not deserve it. Is there anyone who would
(25:36):
like to speak on the matter of Euripdes' crimes? The
chorus asks, once they've announced, what today is for determining
Euripides is guilt me? A woman calls immediately. Her name
is Mika, and she puts on a garland. When she's asked,
stands at the head of the group and prepares herself.
The chorus shushes those around, call it for silence, an
(25:57):
announcing quote, Mica is clearing her throat, and like a
real politician, she is preparing to make a long speech.
And this is where we learn the supposed details of Euripides' crimes,
the things these women believe he's done in his plays.
And I remind you once more that this is Aristophanes' invention.
This Euripides and these women seemingly angry with him, are,
(26:19):
as far as we know, extremely invented, entirely invented by Aristophanes.
Because we all know and agree Euripides is perfect, Mika announces, quote,
is there an insult he hasn't hit us with? Yet?
There is no indignity, not a foul word he hasn't
(26:39):
used to sally our name with. Give the bastard an audience,
give him a chorus, give him some actors, and there
will be no end to the garbage he'll find to
defame us with. She goes on claiming that Euripides calls
women every horrible thing she can imagine. Quote, lecherous, seducers
(27:00):
of man, alcoholics, chatterbox is treacherous, sick in the head,
a pain in the arts of our husbands, you name it.
Then she explains that the real issue is that their
husbands then watch Euripides's plays because you know, women aren't allowed,
mind you. She doesn't say as much, but the husbands
come home to them after watching the plays, and instead
(27:22):
of giving their wives a kind word of hello, they
give them suspicious looks and begin searching for hidden lovers.
The more Maker goes on ranting about Eurippides and all
the horrible things he's put into the men's heads, the
more it becomes clear that the joke here is that,
at least with many of the things they claim of Euripides,
it isn't so much that he isn't speaking the truth,
(27:44):
but that he's giving away all of their secrets. It's
harder for them to hide all their lovers now that
their husbands are watching eurippides plays. It's harder for a
woman who can't have a baby to pass off another's
as her own. It's harder for young women to marry
older men. She says that their houses are all now
locked up, that the men have hidden everything away, and
(28:07):
that they have knew better spartan locks and keys. She
explains that before the women knew exactly how to break
their husband's locks, it was easy, but not now. She
finishes her speech by saying, quote, so I move, therefore, ladies,
that we get rid of this disgusting little pest Euripides
(28:27):
by poisoning him or whatever, or do anything. They will
definitely knock him dead. Once the applause for her speech
has died out, the chorus takes note that quote, what
an intelligent, eloquent, subtle speech this woman just uttered, subtle, indeed,
definitely not Aristophanes, playing on the nature of politicians and
(28:49):
their speeches and insulting women at that. They praise her
a bit more, comparing her to politicians of the time,
noting the sheer perfection of her speech and her argument.
And she's not alone. Another woman takes the garland and
has her own speech about why Euripides should be punished.
She acknowledges the things that he said about women, but
her own complaint is that she believes he's convinced too
(29:12):
many Athenian men not to believe in the gods. She
says that now they all believe there are no gods,
and that affects her garland selling business. How it affects it,
I do not know, and the end notes do not
elaborate on that. So we must either trust her or
trust that Aristophanes is making some additional commentary here. She
does finish the speech by saying that she has to
(29:33):
go because twenty men have ordered garlands and she must
go weave them. So I don't know, maybe business isn't
that bad. She also tosses in an insult to Euripides
that's used quite often. He gets made fun of for
having a father who sold vegetables, or perhaps specifically, who
sold cabbage. No one likes a cabbage seller, I guess.
(30:13):
Once more, the chorus praises this woman's speech. They have
no complaints and announced that she made her argument perfectly.
It's all been made quite clear that Euripides simply must
be punished for his myriad crimes. And this this is
when Minnesilcus makes himself known. He rushes to the stage,
(30:35):
prepared to mount a strong defense of his son in law.
And frankly, he's been the most obnoxious character so far,
but at least someone's going to defend my beloved Euripides
against the Aristophanean slander. I think I'm going to regret
saying that, because his defender is still written by Aristophanes
and twelve that's pretty clear, because Minnesilicas fills his defensive
(30:57):
speech with more weird stereotype of how we are to
believe women speak and behave. He says things like girls, girls, girls, Oh,
believe me, girls, I understand you completely. Golly gosh, darlings. Gross. Anyway,
he goes on. He is disguised as a woman, mind you.
He tells the women that he agrees with them completely.
Eurippdes is awful. I hate him completely, he says. I
(31:21):
swear on my own children that I do actually hate him.
I promise God's He's convincing, isn't he? But he says,
after this strong reassurance, that he too hates Eurippdes. He
promises he really hates him. He's bad. He says, let's
think about this. Let's think about this really closely. It's
only women here, he reassures them. No one else will
(31:41):
ever know what's been said. He asks, what's the point
of all these accusations. Sure, he's given away a few
of our secrets, but gods know he knows more of
them that he's keeping silent. Quote, golly gosh, thousands of them. Now,
this golly gosh nonsense. I can't find what would it
be another translation or in the Greek, but it's really something.
(32:04):
I don't know how I feel about the Theodoretas translation,
but we are stuck with it now. Regardless. The point
is that he's playing some absurd version of a woman,
and then he regales the women with a long list
of absolutely absurd, invented stories and attempt to suggest that
the women are exactly as Euripides claims, and actually he's
holding on to most of their secrets. He's barely giving
(32:26):
away any that's how bad they are. He has this
fake woman says that he personally, just days after he
was married, had a lover sneak in let. His husband
tried to stop him, and he lied, saying he had
a stomach ache before sneaking out and having his lover
take him by the altar of Apollo while he hung
onto the Daphne tree. Now, pronouns are tricky here. I'm
(32:49):
not going to say she, because I don't want to
suggest that this is anything other than an ancient comedic
story of a man infiltrating a women's space. But obviously
Mannesilkus is pretending to be a woman as he's telling
this story. Still Eurippdes never mentioned that story. He reminds
the women he's keeping that secret. He goes on quote
and has he said anything about the fact that when
(33:10):
we get desperate we screw our slaves and our mule drivers. No,
he hasn't. What about the morning after the night before,
you know, the mornings we chew up all the garlic
that are so that our hubbies won't suspect us of
screwing around while the poor buggers were spending the whole
night guarding the city walls. Have you seen Eurippdes say
anything about that? Well? Have you? Of course not? Kind
(33:36):
of wish I hadn't decided to cover this play, but
here we are. The point, to be clear, is to
play on wild and over the top stereotypes. I don't
think even Aristophanes is suggesting that women did these things,
or I hope not, But I mean maybe we should
find it refreshing to even have the notion mentioned that
(33:56):
women could be like doing things for themselves, finding pleasure
outside of their marriages if they needed to. I mean,
that's not the point. I don't know. It's just kind
of nice to see flawed women in play. Still, even
if the whole point is that they're all mad that
Euripides portrays flawed women in his plays. It's dark can
having trouble, We must power through. I will not leave
(34:19):
this unfinished just because it's fucking weird and highly problematic.
Minnesolka's goes on, He's got an enormous fucking speech about
the things. He suggests that women do, things that Euripdes
isn't tattling on. He says, like, you know, when you're
trying to hide your boyfriend from your husband, so you
tuck him under your dress, you know, normal stuff. Or
(34:40):
a woman who convinced her husband that she was in
labor for ten days, all while secretly she bought another
woman's baby to pass off as theirs. Sure, of course,
the logistics of that, Minnesolka suggests, meant that the woman
bringing the baby to the new home kept him hidden
in a large pot with honeycomb in his mouth so
he wouldn't cry again. You know, totally normal things that
(35:01):
women do to deceive men. Nasilicas finishes this speech by
saying that Eurippdes quote gives us no more hassle than
we deserve. Honestly and well, you might imagine the course
of women at the thest before. I do not take
this speech well. The course is very angry, and this
translation uses a lot of words that I don't care
(35:21):
to use, so won't be quoting what they say. But
they are not happy about the things Minnasilica suggested that
women do, and I mean, do we blame them? We
do not? We do? However, find ick in this translation.
I'm going to paraphrase more now because this dude really
loves to use the words like slot and whore. Good times. Anyway,
(35:42):
there's lots of jabs at Eurippes's character choices, how he
writes about women who've been assaulted, as though that's only
meant to make women look bad, which just anyway, this
play is messed up. Poor Fhiedra gets a lot of
blame for Eurippdes' play, Hippolytus and Penelope gets a lot
of praise. Not cliche at all. They all seem to
wish Euripdes would just write plays about women like Penelope
(36:04):
instead make everyone look good. This play is a misogynists
fever dream women. They hate him God, they only want
to see virtuous women like Penelope on stage. Anyway, This
is what I love about actual, real Euripides, because he
didn't just write plays about women like Penelope, or even Dianara,
(36:28):
who's a badass but also very much still the model
woman in other ways beyond you know, accidentally killing her husband.
I meanwhile, Euripdes has given us Medeia and Fidra and Helen.
But again, we are too deep into display for me
to give it up now, no matter how many times
I've considered it. Minnesolcus goes on and on and on,
proposing countless stories of women doing absolutely absurd things. They're
(36:50):
meant to play on stereotypes, meant to amplify the stereotypical
way men see women, and vice versa, but they are
still painful to read. The fighting between Mansilicus and the
women devolves, with one of the women who spoke earlier, Mica,
making the biggest arguments against Minnesilicus's misogynist bullshit. She's ready
(37:11):
to fight the man, ready to punch him straight in
the face. I mean, good for her. But before she
can get to do that, they're interrupted by Clysbanies, a
man who is described similarly to Agathon. He's a feminate
and he's the bottom, and his relationship and thus according
to the Athenians, he's basically a woman. Remind me why
(37:33):
I thought covering this play would be a good idea,
you know, I originally thought this play would make for
a good fit for International Women's Month, you know, because
(37:57):
it's about a women's only festival. Why on Gaya's Earth
do I think I can just assume that a play
will be a good fit for something, and one written
by Aristophanes, no less an episode about just the Thesmophoria.
That would have been great. Silly of me to assume
that Aristophanes didn't just write a misogynist screed and place
(38:18):
it at the Thesmophoria. I'm sure there are arguments against
that reading, and I can't wait to hear them, But
right now I am too deep into this to see
anything else. But I did have a conversation episode that
I recorded before recording this, thankfully that I can now
assure you is coming out on Friday, and won't reassure
(38:38):
you of everything, but does make this play better in
its own way. Again, we're just too deep into this
for me to give up in the series, but I
seriously considered it. We've only got one more episode though,
to finish it. Off and maybe have Aristophanes redeem himself. Gods,
I miss reading actual Euripides and speaking of International Women's Month,
(39:02):
and how poor a choice this play was for it.
Once next week's last episode on the thousand before ZUSA
is sorted, We're going to get to some actually good
and interesting women's specific episodes. Do not worry. That's mostly
for me. It's reassuring myself because God's this play. In
some ways it's entertaining and interesting and worth covering, and
(39:24):
in some ways it is not. But regardless, I do
wish I hadn't done it at this moment, but here
we are. Anyway to finish off this attempt at a
comedic episode. God, So I didn't make it very funny,
and I'm sorry for that. But we will end as
we always do, with a reading of a five star
review from Apple Podcasts. This one comes from a user
named hulk Car from the States. I'm not going to
(39:47):
read the entire thing because it was super long, but
super duper lovely, and it was long because this person
actually went through the trouble of updating their earlier review
after they had finished binging the whole show. And God's
I appreciate that so much, so seriously, thank you. She's
lived and she loves this stuff. I only recently, about
(40:09):
three weeks ago, learned of this podcast and started listening
from the first episode. I'm now on episode seventy, so
I guess you can say I'm hooked. Addendum February twenty third,
twenty twenty three. I discover this podcast in August of
twenty twenty two and decided to listen to every episode
from the beginning to the present. That's over five years
of an ongoing podcast, so the finish line moved steadily along.
(40:29):
Today I achieved my goal listening to the most recent
episode from two days ago, and I must say my
enjoyment of this podcast has only increased overtime. It's been
great to hear hosts live improve over the years and
her work and her enthusiasm and excitement increase. It's been
a fun ride, and I'm looking forward to finally to
listening to episodes in real time. Thank you Live Albert. Honestly,
(40:51):
thank you that was really nice. I really my favorite
thing is when people see what I see, which is
just how much better and more interesting the show has
gotten overtime, So thank you. Let's talk about mis Baby
is written produced by me Live Albert Michael Smith is
the Hermes to my Olympians and handles so many podcasts
related things. No, it was not Michaela's idea to cover
the those before a Zuosai. That is totally on me.
(41:14):
Stephanie Folly works to transcribe the podcast for YouTube captions
and accessibility. The podcast is hosted and monetized by iHeartMedia.
Help me continue bringing you the world of Greek mythology
and the Ancient Mediterranean by becoming a patron, where I'll
get bonus episodes and more. Visit patreon dot com slash
Smith's Baby, or click the link in this episode's description.
You nerds are all the best, and I seriously love
(41:35):
you for staying with me through this episode. Just one more,
I promise, and hopefully it'll redeem itself. Time will tell
I am living. I love this shit, even if I'm
learning I do not particularly care for Aristophanes
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
Death, Sex & Money
Anna Sale explores the big questions and hard choices that are often left out of polite conversation.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.