January 13, 2025 • 54 mins
In this episode of Light Warrior Radio, Dr. Karen Kan speaks with Sarah Peyton, a leading voice in relational neuroscience, about how resonance and relational language can heal trauma and rewire the brain. 🌱
🎙 What you’ll discover:
- 🌱 How attachment wounds form and their impact on your life
- 💡 Healing approaches that honor your unique journey
- 🧠Insights into making your brain a beautiful place to live
📌 Resources mentioned:
- Sarah’s Resonance Summit
- Sarah’s book: Your Resonant Self
✨ Don’t miss this transformative conversation!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Karen Kan (00:00):
Welcome to Light Warrior Radio, where our mission
is to empower sensitive souls toharness their superpowers and
shine their light. So together,we can cocreate heaven on earth.
I'm your host, doctor Karen Kan,author of the number one best
selling book, Sensitivity isYour Superpower, and founder of
the Academy of Light Medicineand the TOLPAKAN Healing Method.
(00:20):
Thank you for joining me. Hello, and welcome.
Welcome, everyone, toLight Warrior Radio. I'm so
excited that you are here todaybecause we're we're gonna be
talking about resonance andhealing attachment wounds.
So, there's a lot of stuff goingon in the world. And, yeah,
(00:41):
people are noticing there's alot of healing happening and
sometimes it's not verycomfortable. And so I thought
I'd bring in an expert today. SoSarah Payton is our expert today
in light word radio, and, let meshare a little bit about her
before we formally introduceher. So she teaches and speaks
internationally about the waysthat relationship and language
(01:01):
transform the brain, how theyprevent and heal trauma.
And I'm really into thislanguage relationship stuff. I'm
actually gonna be taking alittle course on, non violent
communication and things likethat. I And, you know, she's an
expert in that as well. So byapplying, complex neuroscience
concepts to real life, stories,role play, research,
meditations, engaging dialogues,audience members lead Sarah's
(01:23):
presentations with more wisdomand self compassion and often
making sense of themselves, youknow, for the first time. So she
has been a presenter inbusinesses, universities,
nonprofits, conferences,prisons, hospitals, churches.
And she's available for keynotespeeches, of course, workshops,
plenary talks, podcast,webinars, and, of course, in
(01:43):
person and online trainings.And, also, constellation work
for families and groups ofprofessionals, which I actually
have, I went to, of course, forthat and role played a little
girl, which was very interestingon family constellations. It was
fascinating, fascinating work.So I think this is perfect for
(02:04):
today. So welcome, Sarah.
Thank you so much.
Sarah Peyton (02:07):
Thank you so much for having me, Karen. What a
pleasure to be here.
Dr. Karen Kan (02:11):
Oh, yeah. The pleasure is mine. And I I think
that's, the the kind of thingsthat you do are really
important. I mean, it's not thatit's not important before, but I
think now it's even moreimportant when there's so much
turmoil. And you can even saylike, they say solar flares are
gonna be worse than 2025, andthat and it flares people's
(02:32):
anger, and the relationships canbe threatened.
So yeah. So I let me ask youfirst, like, tell us your story.
Like, how did you become who youare today?
Sarah Peyton (02:44):
Oh, well, you know, I was just thinking this
morning about the the thingsthat happen with trauma and
about how how when we're littlekids and our parents are kind of
rocked by trauma or fractured bytrauma, they can be kind of
harsh and rigid with our littletiny beings and punitive. And
(03:06):
then we can grow up to I mean,even just becoming 3 years old.
I remember becoming 3 years oldand having my consciousness dawn
of a of a self, a sense of self,and how I thought that myself
was not good, because I wasalready had already been treated
(03:26):
so punitively that I that I,didn't know. It's like when
we're treated punitively, webecome hard and angry. And I I
remember not liking my motherand thinking I was a terrible
person because I didn't like mymother.
And then I had to kind of, youknow, figure out how to live
(03:49):
with that. And then I rememberthe day that I was, I was 50
something, and I was in a in a Iwas listening to a lecture about
early childhood, and they said,if a baby is treated punitively
and harshly, then, of course,they don't like their mother.
You know? And I was like, oh.And what that did was it allowed
(04:11):
me to rediscover my communionwith her, my sense of, of just
loving her, that she was myworld and that I loved her so
intensely.
It it was like it it when whenthese kind of trauma related
things that make us think we'rebad people start to become
revealed to us, we begin to webegin to heal attachment wounds.
(04:35):
We begin to reach back into asense of ourselves almost as as
love incarnate. And that, ofcourse, being little love
incarnate embodies what happensto us impacts us and impacts our
ability to access that love. Sothat's kind of a little bit of a
very wild and intense originstory for you. How did I do?
Dr. Karen Kan (04:59):
That's great. Well, there's definitely
similarities, there as well. My,although I I very very close to
my my mom and, but it's justvery dramatic. You know? And,
thank goodness for the personalgrowth because I used to take
things really personal.
(05:21):
And as a child, like, how canyou not? Yeah. How can how can
you not, take things personally?So, yeah, yesterday, she just
texted me that I'm being overlycontrolling, which I just
laughed out loud because I'mlike, the apple does not fall
apart from the tree, I guess.You know?
I I didn't say that. I didn'tsay that. So, let's talk about,
you mentioned attachment wounds.So can you kind of flush that
(05:44):
out a little bit? Like, what iswhat is that?
Sarah Peyton (05:46):
Yeah. So attachment wounds are, well,
we're just, like I was saying,kind of made to be love. Mhmm.
But but because it hurts whenlove is not returned or when, we
are treated punitively orharshly, or when we're ashamed
or ridiculed, or somebodydoesn't talk to us for hours or
(06:10):
days, then we we start to kindof develop a fortress that stops
us from being in relationship.That's one way we can go.
It's called a. We can develop afortress that keeps us safe from
relationship becauserelationship has been so
(06:30):
painful. Yep. And nonresponsive.And then but another thing we
can do is we can become anxious.
Like, just always feeling likeif only we could get the other
person to respond to us the waythat we want them to, then we
everything would be fine. And sowe can kind of that's another
(06:53):
way that we can we can developan attachment wound is to to be
really kind of worried all thetime about whether or not we're
being liked or whether or not wematter, whether or not our voice
matters, whether or not we'rewe're safe, whether or not we
can ever be loved, whether ornot, you know, the the whole
(07:14):
inside of us that was left bythe communion that we came out
of the womb capable of was ableto be manifest or not. And and
so then the 3rd those are the 2big organized responses to
(07:34):
trauma. Then the third responseis to is disorganized. It's
traumatic attachment.
And with with traumaticattachment, then things become
really unpredictable. One minutewe're kind, one minute we're
crazy. You know? One minutewe're Oh. Yeah.
One minute we're stable, oneminute we're clawing off the
(07:54):
handle. One minute we're totallyloving. Another minute we're
raging with jealousy. So oneminute we're there. The next
minute we're like, I can't dothis relationship.
I'm out of here. All of thatunpredictability is the result
of the chasms that appear withinthe kind of the attachment
(08:15):
matrix of the human brain, whichis supposed to be kind of a a if
you could you could think of itas a a beautifully woven piece
of material that has, you know,lots of warp and weft and, you
know, is tightly woven. It'sEgyptian cotton. You know? 1200
(08:35):
thread count.
Dr. Karen Kan (08:37):
Oh, that's so interesting. Yeah. It it
actually that that actuallysounds like more like my mom's
so called personality, becausethere was some major trauma,
like, when she was growing up.
Sarah Peyton (08:49):
Yeah. But
Dr. Karen Kan (08:49):
it wasn't like she was the focus of the
negative energy, but shewitnessed it.
Sarah Peyton (08:54):
Oh, yeah. That leaves traces in the brain. We
can see this.
Dr. Karen Kan (08:57):
So she has this off on, like, happy like like,
really unstable and unhappy, andthey're really gonna sound like,
what is going on?
Sarah Peyton (09:05):
Yeah. Yeah. Oh my goodness. And we have to respond
by often, we respond by becomingas much ballast as we can to
center and ground our mothers.Yep.
Yep. But then also we have thesechasms within ourselves in the
places where she wasn't able tobe predictable, and we ourselves
(09:28):
also can kind of carry forwardthat unpredictability.
Dr. Karen Kan (09:33):
Wow. Wow. That's very, very interesting.
Sarah Peyton (09:35):
This is finish that metaphor of the Egyptian
cotton. It's supposed to beEgyptian cotton with all these
thread with high fry threadcount. But when we're
traumatized or when our parentsare traumatized and are are
unpredictable with us, it's likeknife slashes through the
Egyptian cotton, whereas secureattachment is just, you know,
(09:56):
lovely warp and weft, 1200thread count, beautiful, smooth,
say easy sailing. But we can thegood thing is that we as we do
the work that both of us teach,it starts to restore that that
fabric of connectedness.
Dr. Karen Kan (10:16):
Mhmm. Wow. That's great. So, I love that visual,
you know, of of the material andit being tightly woven and
beautiful and even, and, thatwould be, like, the stability of
of that connection. And then itthe trauma being literally,
like, rips, and then we are,like, repairing.
Reminds me of that, cartoonBrave where she slashes the
(10:41):
family.
Sarah Peyton (10:41):
I don't
Dr. Karen Kan (10:42):
know if you've seen that cartoon. She Oh, okay.
Yeah. In a in a fit of anger,she slashes this tapestry. Her
mom becomes a bear.
And until she weaves it back in,her mom has a limited time to
become human again. So spoileralert, people. But, yeah, it's
similar to that. That's sointeresting.
Sarah Peyton (11:04):
Yeah. Yeah. And in a way, the time span that we
have to weave our mother toweave the fabric back together
so our mother can become humanis our lifetime. Yeah. Because
we can continue the work ofreweaving even after our mothers
are dead.
We can reclaim them frombeardom. Yeah.
Dr. Karen Kan (11:23):
Yeah. From beardom. Yes. Oh, so true. So,
now some people I noticed,Sarah, they're not consciously
aware of trauma.
And trauma is almost like a hipthing to have, you know, these
days. So there's the other campthat are like trauma? I don't
(11:45):
have trauma. So how would onerecognize there was work to do
in this realm withoutnecessarily labeling themselves
as trauma? Like, are there somehints of maybe there's some
things here.
Maybe the the word wound ortrauma is too dramatic for
certain people. Like, what aresome patterns that you see that
(12:07):
would be helpful to go into thiskind of work?
Sarah Peyton (12:09):
Yeah. Well, if we're looking for, you know, the
the this really sort ofbeautiful, steady, tight weave,
then our question is, you know,are we is is the weave within
our brains steady and sweet andbeautiful enough for us? Or is
there some way that we'reattacking ourselves or that our
(12:32):
brains are not cozy places tolive in? I mean, the ideal the I
in in the ideal world wherewe've started to heal our
attachment wounds, our brainsbecome really warm, welcoming
places for ourselves and forothers too.
Dr. Karen Kan (12:52):
Okay. Now some people are not gonna necessarily
identify with their brain. Iknow you have a lot of learnings
in neurochemistry notneurochemistry, you know,
neurology, that kind of thing.So what would it feel like to
not have that stable brainblueprint, if you will?
Sarah Peyton (13:12):
So a number of things that tell us that it's
not cozy inside of our brain.One is, if we always need to be,
eating or smoking cigarettes orplaying video games.
Dr. Karen Kan (13:30):
Okay. Eating, playing video games.
Sarah Peyton (13:32):
Smoking cigarettes, drinking. Yeah.
Drinking. Okay. Weed.
Whatever it is, if we're ifthere's something that we're
doing habitually, always havingNetflix on, if there's something
we're doing habitually thattakes us away from ourself, then
(13:53):
it means that our brain is not acozy welcoming place for us.
Dr. Karen Kan (13:58):
Oh, so those things are self soothing
activities? Or
Sarah Peyton (14:03):
They're very soothing. They're very
restorative in the short term.
Dr. Karen Kan (14:08):
Uh-huh.
Sarah Peyton (14:09):
Our disrupt our brain patterning that has been
disrupted by trauma. So if ourwe have like different colors in
this fabric that we're weaving.We have a color for healthy
anger. We have a color forhealthy disgust. We have a color
for healthy, love and care.
We have a color for healthy,play. We have a color for
(14:33):
healthy, sexuality and authenticexpression of the self. And so
our addictions or our habitswill tell us where the fabric of
self is disrupted. So if wereally find that we turn to
(14:54):
either, sugar, salt, and fat orto opiates, then we can guess
and and and alcohol is allpurpose. Then we can guess that
we can guess that we've beendisrupted in the area of play
and love I'm sorry, of care andlove.
Dr. Karen Kan (15:15):
Okay. So they're like surrogates, but, obviously,
they don't heal.
Sarah Peyton (15:20):
Right. They're trying to they, like, try to put
little patches on the fabric.Ah. That's like what patching
that fabric of attachment.
Dr. Karen Kan (15:29):
Like the scarecrow. Right? Like, just
patching them.
Sarah Peyton (15:34):
And and if we're smoking weed, then we're putting
patches on the play circuit.We're putting
Dr. Karen Kan (15:41):
patches on the
Sarah Peyton (15:43):
play circuit. Yeah. On the on our ability to
it's it means that our abilityto play has been compromised.
And and, if we're, relying onit's it's a little more complex
than that. We can also gotoward, towards balance and
homeostasis, but play balancesand creates homeostasis for our
(16:07):
bodies.
It's quite a lovely
Dr. Karen Kan (16:11):
Well, let me let me ask you about play for a
moment here. Because to me, playis relative. So so meaning that,
you know, if somebody elseoutside looking in to my life,
they'd be like, wow. You'rereally in front of that computer
a lot.
Sarah Peyton (16:28):
Mhmm. You know?
Dr. Karen Kan (16:29):
Yes. You go skating. Yes. You do CrestFit.
And, yes, you, you know,sometimes make candles.
And my latest thing is herbalsalves, which is super super
fun. But most of the time, I'mcreating stuff online and and
doing that kind of stuff. Butthe thing is, it's not like a 9
to 5 job where people don't likewhat they do, and it's work. To
me, that is play. So whatever'shappening to my brain, I I get
(16:55):
so enthused, and it's so fun.
Sarah Peyton (16:58):
Uh-huh.
Dr. Karen Kan (16:59):
And sometimes, like, even my husband would be
like, are you coming out? Like,take a break. You know? But for
me, it's like, I've been playingso much.
Sarah Peyton (17:08):
Yeah. Of course. So You know, like Yeah. That's
not I need
Dr. Karen Kan (17:12):
to play board with you.
Sarah Peyton (17:14):
That kind of expression is is play, but it's
also the expression of your trueself. Emergence. It's your
sexuality. It's it's yourauthentic being that's coming
out in what you're doing. So, Imean, that's pretty powerful
double double whammy ofexpression there, both play and
who you are.
Dr. Karen Kan (17:36):
It can look like not play though. I can
understand that right from otherpeople's perspective, because
they're not feeling what I'mfeeling.
Sarah Peyton (17:42):
Right. It takes us to the video games and and part
of what video games are helpingus do is it video games pop us
out of our default mode network,which is the automatic voice of
the brain.
Dr. Karen Kan (17:56):
Mhmm.
Sarah Peyton (17:57):
So, it puts us in our seeking circuit and lets us
balance dopamine. So it's like alittle patch on our we're
talking about these patches on,on our attachment fibers, and
this patch is a patch thatpatches up the seeking circuit
and makes us feel like we'regetting things done. So what we
what we really wanna know is,is, like, when you wake up in
(18:25):
the morning, do you feel a senseof delight that Karen has
arrived in a wake awaken. That'swhat what we wanna know.
Dr. Karen Kan (18:39):
Like to sleep in. But,
Sarah Peyton (18:42):
When you shower, is there a sense of wonder and
happiness and welcome for yourphysical body when you're doing
self care? Is there you know,that's what we wanna know. We
find the question the answer tothis question you're asking, if
we don't know that we'recarrying the aftereffects of
attachment wounds, how might weguess that we are? We carry the
(19:05):
aftereffects of our attachmentwounds in the moments of quiet
where where we notice, oh, isthere anxiety? Is is it hard to
just rest and goof off?
Do when we start to hang outwith family or friends and and
(19:26):
people are laughing, do we startto just feel, like, really
nervous and really wanna gowork? You know, we wanna know we
wanna know whether the inside ofyour own brain is not just
welcoming your emergentexpression of the divinity of
your message and your work inthe world. We wanna know whether
(19:48):
your brain is is kind ofcreating this reverberating echo
chamber of love for you and, ofcourse, for the people around
you. But
Dr. Karen Kan (19:59):
Okay. That that's really helpful. Like, I I was at
a a little party, the other daywith with my friends, and I just
felt like I wasn't thinkingabout work. You know? So, you
know, it's really cool.
First of all, I was giving awaymy bomb, so I wanted to know
what they thought of it. But,you know, we're exchanging, you
know, presents afterwards, andwe just had a lot of fun. You
know, just like being presentand playing games and stuff is
(20:22):
some of the things we do withsome of our local people. So
when it's planned out, and Iknow I have a lot of work, but
when it's planned out, I'm ableto do that. I can thoroughly
enjoy that and not think about Igot this to do over here.
So that's much better than itused to be. Uh-huh. Like before,
like, decades, I would feelguilty
Sarah Peyton (20:42):
Yeah.
Dr. Karen Kan (20:43):
Because I would have things to do, and I would
be over here planning this gettogether, whatever, and then but
I'd be like, oh, but I have thisloads of things to do over here.
So it just seems like that's notit's not encroaching on that
playtime. So that's good. Yeah.That feels healthier these days.
Sarah Peyton (21:03):
Good. It's really a sign of the growth that you're
talking about.
Dr. Karen Kan (21:08):
Yeah. It's really interesting. Well, I, you know,
I was talking to a loved one,and and at the time of this
recording, my my father's notdoing that well and could
potentially pass away at anymoment, supposedly. So the loved
one was, you know, talking abouthow, she hasn't been sleeping
(21:28):
because of worry. And I thoughtback to I used to be the poster
child for being worried.
Like, I would not sleep atnight. I was a a young person, a
teenager. Like, I would juststay up all hours because I was
worried.
Sarah Peyton (21:43):
Yeah.
Dr. Karen Kan (21:43):
And that was normal. That was my default. And
then when she said this aboutwhat's happening now,
understandably, right, it's aloved one, and, I thought, woah.
I've come a long way.
Sarah Peyton (21:54):
That's wonderful.
Dr. Karen Kan (21:55):
You know? Because I can go to bed and have that
faith that yeah. I could yeah.Maybe he would die. Maybe not.
I don't know. You know? But it'slike, I'm okay, and everything's
gonna be okay. So I'm not goingto bed worried that, you know,
somebody might die. This mighthappen or this might happen.
Like, I was the what if girl.Like, I I I was supposed to
(22:17):
tell, so I could be so anxiousabout I wouldn't call it anxiety
at the time. Yeah. I have
Sarah Peyton (22:23):
a friend of yours updates, brain change
notifications. Is it that we arethat as we grow and we can do
new things and we notice allthis is so different now than it
was before.
Dr. Karen Kan (22:37):
Yeah. It's kinda neat having the contrast Mhmm.
You know, of that. So what aboutthis pattern of, like my current
understanding is sometimes thethe people around me will
reflect back to me some unhealedparts of my shadow.
Sarah Peyton (22:57):
Yeah.
Dr. Karen Kan (22:58):
So, you know, if, for example, my partner is
playing video games. Right? Themaybe there's a that part of me
that is like, well, you could bemore productive. Don't you have
a mission or something? Youknow?
You know what I mean? Therethere could be a judgment there.
So what what is that about, thisreflection that's coming back
and the judgment that might becoming back? Well,
Sarah Peyton (23:22):
we first of all, when somebody is playing video
games, they disappear into them,and they lose their relational
connection to people who aren'tin the video game with them. So
our experience of being withsomebody, it's something we're
(23:44):
all sort of sliding into havinga fortress around ourselves
about to come back to one of thetypes of attachment wounds. When
someone else is paying attentionto something that's not us and
we're in the relational space,then we start to try to accustom
ourselves to not being met, tonot being to kind of
(24:08):
experiencing a kind of alarmedaloneness. So the person a
playing the video game ismanaging their default mode
network any way in which theyhave anxiety or an internal
voice that's unpleasant. They'reable to turn it off most
completely with especially firstperson shooter video games take
(24:29):
people out of their automaticinner critic voice most
completely.
Dr. Karen Kan (24:35):
Really?
Sarah Peyton (24:36):
Yeah.
Dr. Karen Kan (24:37):
That's interesting. Why why why is that
if it's a first person shootergame? Or
Sarah Peyton (24:42):
It activates the salience network and the visual
attention network of the humanbrain, which is comp completely
a different network than theinternal rumination network.
Dr. Karen Kan (24:56):
Okay. Yeah. I I heard about the default salient
network recently from a friendof ours, Jeff Virginia. I can't
believe it helps brain stuff aswell. Like, an expert like
yourself.
And that was the first I've everheard of it. Like, it like, he
was explaining it was like thedefault.
Sarah Peyton (25:08):
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Karen Kan (25:11):
And and, also explaining that the, anterior
anterior midcingulate cortex,that if there's something that
we think would be good for ourhighest and greatest good to do,
but we don't wanna do it. But ifwe go, I'm gonna do it. So an
example would be, you know, myhusband and I do, like, this
cross fit type exercise. And,you know, some of the people who
were just practicing, he wouldsay to them, look, I know
(25:33):
sometimes you wake up, you don'twanna exercise. You just don't
wanna do it.
Right? It's cold out, you know,whatever. He's like, just do the
warm up. So so what happens isyou do the 10 minute warm up,
and by the end of the warm up,you wanna do it. You wanna do
the rest of the workout.
So that and so Jeffrey wassaying, if you do that, you're
actually you're actually,turning off the default salient
(25:54):
network, and you're actuallyamplifying or growing the
anterior midcingulate cortex,that conscious part of
ourselves. And that's a goodthing. You know, that that
discipline, I guess, does that.We're not talking about forcing.
We're not talking about, like,forcing us to go to work while
we hate going to work.
That's not the same thing. Soit's fascinating.
Sarah Peyton (26:14):
Yes. Yes. So there we are, person a, playing their
video game. Not any part oftheir no part of their brain
that does relationality now isonline.
Dr. Karen Kan (26:25):
Mhmm.
Sarah Peyton (26:26):
And the same thing is true. This is why I say that
we're all developing thisfortress because whenever
somebody looks at their at theirtelephone at their mobile
telephone, they're managingtheir, they're managing their
seeking circuit. They'remanaging dopamine. And and each
time that we do that, we we moveaway from our person. We're not
(26:48):
in relational space with ourperson.
So so then person b has to putstart to begin to put up a
fortress to defend themselvesagainst the constant sense of
that that that person a is notavailable.
Dr. Karen Kan (27:05):
Oh, it's not available. Okay. Well, isn't
that similar? I'm gonna be, youknow, angel after the get double
that kid, whatever you call it.Whereas if I'm in if I'm online
and I'm doing work online,whether it be a team meeting or
a course I'm creating or anemail sequence I'm writing,
something like that, how is thatdifferent than somebody going
and playing a video game?
(27:26):
Because I'm on a screen awayfrom that person. That person
feels abandoned potentially. I'mnot projecting that. But
Sarah Peyton (27:32):
Yeah.
Dr. Karen Kan (27:33):
So how how is that different?
Sarah Peyton (27:35):
It's not.
Dr. Karen Kan (27:36):
It's not.
Sarah Peyton (27:37):
It's not. And often people when people are
looking at their video theirgame their telephones, not their
video games, but when they'relooking at their telephones,
they're often working. They'reoften checking work email.
Dr. Karen Kan (27:48):
Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah Peyton (27:48):
There's no difference. Not no difference at
all.
Dr. Karen Kan (27:51):
The other person can still feel abandoned, can
still start to, you know, makethat fortress, so that they're
like, I'm I'm not great aboutbeing abandoned.
Sarah Peyton (28:00):
That's right. That's right. Right. Wow. Yeah.
And since we're so since we areI mean, can't remember what the
statistics are on how often anaverage person checks their
phone a day.
Dr. Karen Kan (28:11):
A lot.
Sarah Peyton (28:12):
600 times or something. We're all in this
kind of spotty attention placethat's somewhat different than
what it was before the advent ofof mobile phones. I mean, people
have always been able to beworkaholics. So mother was
always able to start canning thepeaches instead of having a, you
(28:35):
know, conversation with theirchild or trying to multitask and
have a conversation with theirchild while they're getting
their peaches. And it's, youknow, it's it's always been
there as part of what we of whatwe're juggling as humans.
Dr. Karen Kan (28:54):
Yeah. So I I don't think technology is gonna
go away anytime soon. Andcertainly, you know, good or not
good, we are becoming morereliant, you know, on them. Just
like nobody that I know uses awashing board to wash their own
clothes anymore. Right?
I mean, we still utilize like,you know, as technology
(29:16):
improves, we're we we, generallyspeaking, adapt the the
technology, and we get fasterand faster at doing certain
things. And yet we still findtime to be busy and not
connecting necessarily.
Sarah Peyton (29:30):
I mean, the relational space is the space
that's most open to trauma.Mhmm. So we're really, you know,
I mean, we really protectourselves by working all the
time or by playing games or bychecking our cell phones. We're
kind of walking a little tightrope above that slashed fabric,
(29:52):
You know that we may carrywithin us as an after effect of
our mother's traumas and ourfather's traumas and their
unpredictable behavior.
Dr. Karen Kan (30:01):
So if we're not thinking about like, for
example, I feel like there's alot of stuff in the past that
I've really come to grips withand feel like I cope much better
than I did as a child, certainlygetting more sleep. You know, so
I'm not as worried anymore. Soif I'm still having these
habits, which many of us do,looking at our phones, being
(30:24):
online, that kind of thing. I'mnot a video game person, but,
you know, movies. Like, are were traumatizing ourselves then?
Like, in our society?
Sarah Peyton (30:33):
No. No. We're managing our trauma. We're not
retraumatizing ourselves. K.
We're walking the tight ropeabove the torn fabric. Okay. And
the work that we do, you know,of being self connected, of of
bringing healing to to thoseslashed places, lets us kind of
(30:58):
lower ourselves off off thetight rope that we're walking
and begin to, you know, havethat kind of interpersonal play
that's goofy and spontaneous andand is not does not had has no
object, has no no goal. It'sjust, you know, enjoyment of the
(31:22):
of the moment.
Dr. Karen Kan (31:23):
Oh, yeah. That's a challenge. Oriented. Are you
kidding me? Yeah.
I see what you're saying. So,you know, if people say, okay. I
recognize that, yeah. I'm I'musing whether it be phones,
video games, weed, whatever, topatch up or or to temporarily,
(31:48):
alleviate myself of some ofthese symptoms, of past trauma,
and and I desire to wanna reallyheal them so I don't have to
have these other things. So howwould they start?
Sarah Peyton (32:03):
Well, I love to think of all the different
healing modalities as kind of agiant orange. Okay. You can
start with any segment of theorange, and and no matter which
segment of the orange you'restarting with, it's wrapped in
that white orange stuff. Youknow, that the the the that goes
right down the middle and allaround the outer edges. And and
(32:26):
that's the healing part, youknow, that the healing comes
through any modality.
Mhmm.
Dr. Karen Kan (32:31):
So, so
Sarah Peyton (32:32):
if people start to study with me and they're like,
oh, gosh. I really loverelational neuroscience and what
we learn about the brain and howit makes me easier on myself.
And they and they say, and Ireally love learning about how
language changes a brain andheals trauma, and I'm just gonna
dive right into this. Then aswe, as we dive, in, into the
(33:00):
healing modality, then thebrain, the, the, those fabric,
the fabric begins to repair. Andit can repair through time
travel resonance, you know,where you go back to talk with
your inner child and do aresonant response with the inner
child.
It can be healed throughtraumatic through, somatic
(33:21):
experiencing. You know, PeterLevine's work where people are
not working really verbally orare working with the body and
its responses. Yoga starts tochange the body's relationship
to trauma with with intentionalbreathing and and sort of
strengthening and stretching ofthe of the of the fascia of the
(33:44):
body, energy healing, where wehave this sense of just being
really, you know, surroundedwith light, being held, be,
being in a warm space, havingthe healing, the different
colors of light that come to us,whatever it is that we're
working with, it's going tostart to make a difference in
(34:07):
how in how we are withourselves.
Dr. Karen Kan (34:15):
Okay. Yeah. See that. So what you're saying is
that it's there's no that youthere's no you have to do it
this way or you have to do itthat way. There's so many
modalities really tuning in tofigure out, like, what what do
what do we resonate with?
Like, maybe somebody resonateswith EFT. Maybe somebody
resonates with, you know, what Ido, Toby and Healing. Maybe
somebody resonates with, youknow, coaching, counseling, or,
(34:39):
like, you know, some of themodalities that you mentioned.
And it's that doorway in toreweave our fabric.
Sarah Peyton (34:48):
Yeah. Yeah. We need to find what works for us.
So so being open andexperimental. I mean, some
people find healing throughtheir devotional practices.
Yeah. There's something greaterthan themselves. And some
people, find healing throughbecoming musicians and playing
(35:09):
music and and discovering newavenues to connection with
themselves and othersemotionally. There's so many
different ways to go. It's kindof amazing.
Dr. Karen Kan (35:21):
Mhmm. That's the that's the real plus there that
healing doesn't have to come inone size fits all because it
doesn't.
Sarah Peyton (35:28):
Yeah. I have a friend in Ireland who says that
people who said that songsingers song song singers were
the first psychotherapists.
Dr. Karen Kan (35:38):
Yeah. I believe that.
Sarah Peyton (35:42):
The songs that tell the truth about emotional
experiences, I brought him tothe US once to to talk to us
about the songs of Irishimmigration because there are we
can still sing the songs thatpeople sang, wrote, and sang,
made up and sang passed aroundand sang about this huge you
(36:03):
know, there were so manymillions of of Irish people that
moved out of Ireland to go allover the world in response to
the Irish potato famine. Mhmm.And and at that time, there were
no cell phones. There was noemail. You would write a letter.
You would have to travel byship. You you know, you'd have
contact with your family once ayear or not at all. And so there
(36:27):
was, like, having to manage thisincredible loss and
disappearance, and it was ableto be named and shared and
touched and healed healed bynaming the truth in the songs.
Gotcha.
Dr. Karen Kan (36:44):
Yeah. I just I never really respected, that
piece of of about songs anduntil I was recently reading
the, Sasia series, the Russianring ringing cedars books from
Russia, where she talks aboutthe bards. And then she that the
I'm paraphrasing, but, you know,elevating the bards to the level
(37:06):
of, like, some of the highestvibe people on the planet to to
share the history, and also toteach and heal, you know,
through their stories, throughtheir songs. And I even have,
not that I remember, butsupposedly, I have a past life
in the Myria where I was what'scalled a singer. So a singer
(37:28):
would go town to town, and, singthe the true history of the
people of Lemuria, and then wewould have someone called a
repeater.
And the repeater would copy wordfor word, song by song, what the
singer would say. And then theythat way, they could spread it
out, you know, throughout theland. But the repeater could not
(37:48):
make up their own stuff, whichis very interesting, because
they would lose that job. Ifthey if they twisted or shift it
or distorted anything theoriginal singer said. So there
was really something to that.
This the song and the the yeah.So it's really interesting what
you shared about the Irish.Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
I took
Sarah Peyton (38:08):
him into the prison with me. I was I do,
before COVID, I was doing a abit of volunteer work inside of
a women's prison close to whereI live. And I took him in with
me, and he taught them a songthat the prisoners in the Irish
prisons used to sing in the inthe late 1800. And and so
there's some there was some kindof, you know, like, an honoring
(38:31):
of life experience also throughsong that I found very
interesting there.
Dr. Karen Kan (38:37):
Yeah. Wow. That's really, really cool. Let's talk
a little bit about the languagepiece. Mhmm.
What what is that about and howthat how how can that help us
heal?
Sarah Peyton (38:52):
It turns out that giving each other advice is not
actually something that restoresthat fabric.
Dr. Karen Kan (38:59):
Giving sense.
Sarah Peyton (39:05):
Giving each other advice, instead of giving people
a sense of being making senseand belonging together gives
people a sense of separation.When we give people advice, they
have to build their fortress.
Dr. Karen Kan (39:17):
So it's
Sarah Peyton (39:18):
reinforcement of attachment trauma to give advice
and to try to manage receivingadvice. It creates a flood of
cortisol in humans instead of,giving them a a flood of do
dopamine, which would help themtake action. It it gives them
(39:38):
what's really a shot of alarmedaloneness.
Dr. Karen Kan (39:41):
It it's really challenging. Right? Because we
see someone suffering and theyseemingly unnecessarily have to
do whatever they'reexperiencing. And we wanna give
them advice because we're like,oh, you could do this so much
easier, or I can help you withthis, or someone so could help
you with this. And and then, youknow, that's why I got the text
message last night that said mymom's like, you are controlling.
Stop controlling. And I waslike, oh, that's interesting.
(40:06):
Give you know, I'm I guess theapple doesn't fall from the
tree. But I realized it'sexactly what you were talking
about right now. Because I wassubtly, not so subtly, you know,
sharing that, hey, you know,you're really stressed about,
you know, this logisticsorganization.
I'm calling a phone call. Ican't remember people's names or
their titles, occupationaltherapist, and all that kind of
stuff. There is someone here whocould do that for you.
Sarah Peyton (40:29):
Yeah.
Dr. Karen Kan (40:29):
You know, I'm happy to pay for it. You know,
like but, no. That that got herfortress going.
Sarah Peyton (40:34):
Yeah. Right.
Dr. Karen Kan (40:35):
Because she was feeling like I was encroaching
on what she felt like was herlife. And how dare I, you know,
suggest that somebody help herwith that outside of family. So
I was like, oh, okay. I was notexpecting that feedback, but
(40:58):
okay. I I had a good I used totake everything personally, but,
you know, I just thought it wasreally funny.
You never say, you know, I wascontrolling them. Like, oh,
okay. I heard that one before.
Sarah Peyton (41:08):
Right. Right. And hey. Yeah. And I grew up with
with you, and this is how youmanage all these, stress.
So that's such a an interestingplace to to invite us to start
is, like, what kind of languageinstead of, hey, mom. You could
do this instead of that. Whatkind of language might, support
(41:29):
the fabric that's torn withinher? Right. And
Dr. Karen Kan (41:32):
And and and I'm I am practicing this new thing,
but it's difficult on chat.
Sarah Peyton (41:39):
Oh, yeah. Totally.
Dr. Karen Kan (41:40):
Yeah. So person to person, it it's easier
because you have the bodylanguage. Right? And I could
literally, like, I hear you say,you know, and I could even,
like, if, you know, if mom wasafraid of me, I say, you know,
what I'm hearing if you know,correct me. What I'm hearing is
that you think that I'mcontrolling because I'm trying
to give you advice over this andthat.
(42:01):
Is that true? And you feel x.You feel frustrated. No. I don't
feel frustrated.
Okay. So, you know, I feel sador whatever. Right? To allow
them to communicate how that is.So that's still pretty new for
me.
Sarah Peyton (42:13):
Yes. You know, it is not new. It sounds like
you're practicing nonviolentcommunication that you're Yeah.
Just feelings and talking aboutfeelings and needs. And that's
one type of language that reallydoes touch the fibers, those
broken fibers.
And people can be like, no. Whydidn't you say that? Why didn't
(42:34):
you say I was frustrated?
Dr. Karen Kan (42:37):
Because Yeah. And I and then it's like, oh, okay.
You know, oh, it wasn't that.What was it? You know?
Exactly.
Sarah Peyton (42:45):
Yeah. So, Oh, oh, don't
Dr. Karen Kan (42:47):
you like this one, Sarah? I'm not angry. I'm
not angry. And you're like,okay.
Sarah Peyton (42:59):
No kidding. Oh, and so so one of the things we
can do is we can we can usefeelings and needs. We can make
impossible dream guesses. Youknow? Would you love it, Mom,
would you love it if there was,like, an entire like, a little a
(43:21):
little army of helpers who couldmake phone calls and remember
all the things and track all thenames?
Or it might be a metaphor guesswhere we'd say, oh, mom. Wonder
if if trying to deal with allthis stuff is like being in the
middle of a of one of those icestorms where the little pieces
(43:41):
of ice actually cut cut your cutyour cheeks when the wind is
blowing them. You know? And sothose are some of the ways that
we can talk with people whereit's almost like we're standing
right beside them, not trying tosolve their problems, but being
right in the middle of
Dr. Karen Kan (43:59):
I love that. The the metaphor and, that what did
you call that? The dreamquestions? Yeah. Imposs okay.
Dreams? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.Because I you know, I think that
the other piece of it is andit's so clear, and I don't think
it's just mine.
But just to go, wouldn't youlove to just be able to sit
there and hold dad's hand andjust sing to him or be there all
(44:22):
day and not have to worry aboutcalling this person and that
person and who's buzzing andremembering their names. You
know? That that would be myversion of that impossible
dream.
Sarah Peyton (44:32):
What a beautiful guest that is. It just it just
sort of makes some part of myheart ease and relax when you
even say it. Mhmm. Yeah.
Dr. Karen Kan (44:43):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. Thank you.
Thank you. This is gonna besuper helpful.
Sarah Peyton (44:51):
The so there's research, you know, that takes a
look at the brain and sees whereit's light what kind of language
lights up which part of thebrain. Oh. So the advice stuff
and telling people what to doand being directive lights up
the left hemisphere. The theinstrumental brain, the seeking
circuit. And the this other kindof language, actually, they see
(45:15):
it lighting up the righthemisphere.
This relational language lightenup the right hemisphere. The
right hemisphere is where thisfiber these fibers of attachment
are.
Dr. Karen Kan (45:27):
Okay. Yeah. Okay. So we used to before call the
left brain the logic brain andthe right brain the the
intuitive brain. So these areother titles or names of
Sarah Peyton (45:37):
to talk about it is to say the instrumental brain
and the relational brain.
Dr. Karen Kan (45:41):
Okay. Instrumental brain, relational
brain. Okay. Okay. It's done.
Yeah. That's cool.
Sarah Peyton (45:46):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. When we kinda get done,
we're not pausing forrelationship.
Dr. Karen Kan (45:56):
Well, we are a doing society. Are we not in
many ways? We're conditionedthat way. So we don't get a
pluses for relational expertise.Let's put it that way.
Sarah Peyton (46:11):
No. We don't. It's true. We don't get a pluses. We
don't get bigger salaries.
Metals. Right?
Dr. Karen Kan (46:18):
Extra money, pay. You know? Well, maybe certain
people do, but but yeah. Yeah.It's, it's, it it it's the the
highlighting of of this, andpeople now that you're saying
all these things is like, oh, ofcourse.
Like, it makes so much sense.Our society is not you're not
(46:41):
hearing this on the newsnecessarily. You're not hearing
this in our movies. Right?You're not and our media is not
promoting this complete otherpiece, which is so important for
us to be happy and well.
The relationship with eachother.
Sarah Peyton (46:56):
And the sweet thing about resonance is we
don't have to leave anybodybehind. Like, it's nobody's
responsibility to become the theengine of resonance. So we'd
also wanna catch you and yourmom, you know, in in the moment
where your mom is telling youabout how completely overwhelmed
she is with everything she hasto do, and we wanna catch you
(47:18):
too. You know? We wanna say, oh,Karen, do you need some
acknowledgement that when yourmom is upset and and,
overwhelmed that it that that isI wonder if it's anything like
all of the little leaves on yourtree fluttering in a kind of a
strong wind when your mom isupset.
And if you just really wouldlove there to be ways that, that
(47:43):
where our elders are totallysupported and cared for, where
it didn't have to all fall onus.
Dr. Karen Kan (47:51):
Mhmm. Yeah. That's beautiful. Yeah. That's
beautiful.
And and, you know, it's funnybecause I was asking my family,
whether they would be open to orconsider, someone who is, we
(48:15):
call them end of lifepractitioner or death doulas or
end of life doulas. Because myleft brain was like, well, they
do logistics. They do all thatkind of stuff. The right and and
then, of course, the right brainwas also like, well, they're
really good with people.
Sarah Peyton (48:30):
Yeah.
Dr. Karen Kan (48:30):
Probably, you know, much more skilled than I
am that that way. And, yeah, andit was, it didn't matter what I
said or how I said it. It justyeah. It wasn't, going to be a
popular choice. It was like Igot the feedback.
Well, if you need that, Karen,you go ahead and, you know, get
(48:55):
that support for yourself. Youknow? I was like, I guess I
could use that. You know whatI'm saying? But it was just
funny because, you know, it was.
And but at the same time,respecting my boundaries is,
like, if I don't have to do thisother thing that isn't what I
wanna do, and I have somebodyelse who's an expert who could
(49:16):
do that, my preference would beI'm gonna hire the expert to do
that while I do what's importantto me, which
Sarah Peyton (49:22):
is connecting.
Dr. Karen Kan (49:23):
Yeah. But then, again, meeting people where they
are. If everybody else in thefamily is like, no. I don't
wanna do that because they havea perception of it's it's, you
know, expensive, not needed, anoutside third party. We're gonna
do everything ourselves.
Then it also isn't something forme to force
Sarah Peyton (49:40):
Right.
Dr. Karen Kan (49:40):
Either. Yeah. So I could see what you're saying
is, like, hey. There's thehonoring of where they are and
and, that relational space andhandling that and also where I
am and also, you know, beingempathetic and handling this
piece as well, because that'salso difficult to have everybody
not on the same page.
Sarah Peyton (49:59):
Right.
Dr. Karen Kan (50:00):
Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of our sensitive
souls end up in this category,where on some intuitive level,
they can see sometimes seethings like, wow, that we don't
have to have war. We reallydon't. Right?
But sometimes the way we comeacross might be just so foreign
(50:23):
that it's just not wellreceived. And then we could be
potentially re traumatized
Sarah Peyton (50:28):
Yeah.
Dr. Karen Kan (50:28):
Or not being seen, not being heard, you know,
all taking things personally,all those kinds of things. So
there's a lot of great work inwhat you're doing right now.
Yeah. Helping us all. So tell usabout, first of all, your
website, where people could findyou, and then what kind of
programs and offerings that youhave to support people,
especially us.
Sarah Peyton (50:52):
My website is sarahpayton.com. So no spaces,
just my name. And there's a setof guided meditations that you
can access by pushing the starthealing now button. Oh. Get the
set of guided meditations thatare for free download for you to
be able to kind of walk youthrough, the steps to take to
(51:17):
begin to make your brain areally good place to live where
you can pause for enjoyment andease and self welcome and
welcome of others.
And, and there are also lots ofclasses. I've written a number
of books. There's, the resonantself series with your resonant
(51:41):
self and your resonant selfhandbook that take you again
through these just easy to dokind of steps to be able to
start to change your brain sothat it supports you and makes
makes it sweet to be alive andto be on this planet with with
(52:01):
our other people that we love.
Dr. Karen Kan (52:04):
Oh, that's beautiful. So, we're gonna link
some of those, below, thisvideo. And, as far as, you know,
live group or 1 on 1, do you dosome of those?
Sarah Peyton (52:16):
Yes. Absolutely. And in the beginning of August
or sorry, April, April 5th to5th 5th to 9th or something like
that this year is the resonancesummit, which is a free
experience of getting to stepinto the world of resonance for
4 days with neuroscientistsspeaking and with,
Dr. Karen Kan (52:37):
Are you running that summit? Yeah. Yeah. That's
so exciting.
Sarah Peyton (52:41):
And it's really really
Dr. Karen Kan (52:42):
cool. So this is April 2025, we're talking about
in case people are watchingthis. Right. But, later, but
they can always go to yourwebsite or contact you, right,
if if they're interested in thenext one. Or
Sarah Peyton (52:54):
Yeah. Yeah. And we'll have at the end of
January, we'll have the sign upfor that on. It's sorry. It's
April 3 to 6 is this year.
Dr. Karen Kan (53:01):
Oh, okay. Okay. Wow. That's good. And that's an
online, summit.
Right? Yeah. Okay. Very cool.
Sarah Peyton (53:08):
And get to hear neuroscientists talk about the
brain and get to hear otherpeople doing resonant language
and go to classes with resonantlanguage. There are lots of
classes on the website. Mhmm. Beable to take foundational
classes in resonant language, tolearn to talk to yourself
without giving yourself advice.
Dr. Karen Kan (53:27):
Oh, to talk to ourselves and others. Is that
applicable to others?
Sarah Peyton (53:31):
Yeah. And others.
Dr. Karen Kan (53:33):
Yeah. Okay.
Sarah Peyton (53:34):
And then That's great. Yeah. And then, my one on
one work calendar is quite full,so it's hard to get in. It's
possible, and that's alsoinformation is on the website.
Yeah.
Dr. Karen Kan (53:46):
Awesome. So sarahpayton sorry. Payton.com?
Yes. Your website?
Sarah, do you have, like, onelast piece of wisdom? I won't
call it advice. Wisdom to toshare with with our listeners
and, viewers?
Sarah Peyton (54:03):
If your brain is not being kind to you, it's not
truth, it's trauma. If you thinkyou're a bad person, it's not
truth, it's trauma. If you thinkyou're not good enough or that
you deserve bad things, it's nottruth. It's drama. Your brain is
just trying to make sense of aworld where bad things have
happened, and our default is toblame ourselves.
Dr. Karen Kan (54:27):
Very good to know. Yes. Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. You, Sarah, so muchfor spending quality time with
us today. It was so fun.Appreciate you, and we wanna
make sure that we thank everyonefor viewing and listening in as
well. Remember to check out thelinks near this video or audio
wherever you are listening orwatching this, and we shall see
(54:49):
you next time.
Light Warrior Radio. Bye fornow. Much love, everyone.
Welcome to Light Warrior Radio, where our mission
is to empower sensitive souls toharness their superpowers and
shine their light. So together,we can cocreate heaven on earth.
I'm your host, doctor Karen Kan,author of the number one best
selling book, Sensitivity isYour Superpower, and founder of
the Academy of Light Medicineand the TOLPAKAN Healing Method.
(00:20):
Thank you for joining me. Hello, and welcome.
Welcome, everyone, toLight Warrior Radio. I'm so
excited that you are here todaybecause we're we're gonna be
talking about resonance andhealing attachment wounds.
So, there's a lot of stuff goingon in the world. And, yeah,
(00:41):
people are noticing there's alot of healing happening and
sometimes it's not verycomfortable. And so I thought
I'd bring in an expert today. SoSarah Payton is our expert today
in light word radio, and, let meshare a little bit about her
before we formally introduceher. So she teaches and speaks
internationally about the waysthat relationship and language
(01:01):
transform the brain, how theyprevent and heal trauma.
And I'm really into thislanguage relationship stuff. I'm
actually gonna be taking alittle course on, non violent
communication and things likethat. I And, you know, she's an
expert in that as well. So byapplying, complex neuroscience
concepts to real life, stories,role play, research,
meditations, engaging dialogues,audience members lead Sarah's
(01:23):
presentations with more wisdomand self compassion and often
making sense of themselves, youknow, for the first time. So she
has been a presenter inbusinesses, universities,
nonprofits, conferences,prisons, hospitals, churches.
And she's available for keynotespeeches, of course, workshops,
plenary talks, podcast,webinars, and, of course, in
(01:43):
person and online trainings.And, also, constellation work
for families and groups ofprofessionals, which I actually
have, I went to, of course, forthat and role played a little
girl, which was very interestingon family constellations. It was
fascinating, fascinating work.So I think this is perfect for
(02:04):
today. So welcome, Sarah.
Thank you so much.
Sarah Peyton (02:07):
Thank you so much for having me, Karen. What a
pleasure to be here.
Dr. Karen Kan (02:11):
Oh, yeah. The pleasure is mine. And I I think
that's, the the kind of thingsthat you do are really
important. I mean, it's not thatit's not important before, but I
think now it's even moreimportant when there's so much
turmoil. And you can even saylike, they say solar flares are
gonna be worse than 2025, andthat and it flares people's
(02:32):
anger, and the relationships canbe threatened.
So yeah. So I let me ask youfirst, like, tell us your story.
Like, how did you become who youare today?
Sarah Peyton (02:44):
Oh, well, you know, I was just thinking this
morning about the the thingsthat happen with trauma and
about how how when we're littlekids and our parents are kind of
rocked by trauma or fractured bytrauma, they can be kind of
harsh and rigid with our littletiny beings and punitive. And
(03:06):
then we can grow up to I mean,even just becoming 3 years old.
I remember becoming 3 years oldand having my consciousness dawn
of a of a self, a sense of self,and how I thought that myself
was not good, because I wasalready had already been treated
(03:26):
so punitively that I that I,didn't know. It's like when
we're treated punitively, webecome hard and angry. And I I
remember not liking my motherand thinking I was a terrible
person because I didn't like mymother.
And then I had to kind of, youknow, figure out how to live
(03:49):
with that. And then I rememberthe day that I was, I was 50
something, and I was in a in a Iwas listening to a lecture about
early childhood, and they said,if a baby is treated punitively
and harshly, then, of course,they don't like their mother.
You know? And I was like, oh.And what that did was it allowed
(04:11):
me to rediscover my communionwith her, my sense of, of just
loving her, that she was myworld and that I loved her so
intensely.
It it was like it it when whenthese kind of trauma related
things that make us think we'rebad people start to become
revealed to us, we begin to webegin to heal attachment wounds.
(04:35):
We begin to reach back into asense of ourselves almost as as
love incarnate. And that, ofcourse, being little love
incarnate embodies what happensto us impacts us and impacts our
ability to access that love. Sothat's kind of a little bit of a
very wild and intense originstory for you. How did I do?
Dr. Karen Kan (04:59):
That's great. Well, there's definitely
similarities, there as well. My,although I I very very close to
my my mom and, but it's justvery dramatic. You know? And,
thank goodness for the personalgrowth because I used to take
things really personal.
(05:21):
And as a child, like, how canyou not? Yeah. How can how can
you not, take things personally?So, yeah, yesterday, she just
texted me that I'm being overlycontrolling, which I just
laughed out loud because I'mlike, the apple does not fall
apart from the tree, I guess.You know?
I I didn't say that. I didn'tsay that. So, let's talk about,
you mentioned attachment wounds.So can you kind of flush that
(05:44):
out a little bit? Like, what iswhat is that?
Sarah Peyton (05:46):
Yeah. So attachment wounds are, well,
we're just, like I was saying,kind of made to be love. Mhmm.
But but because it hurts whenlove is not returned or when, we
are treated punitively orharshly, or when we're ashamed
or ridiculed, or somebodydoesn't talk to us for hours or
(06:10):
days, then we we start to kindof develop a fortress that stops
us from being in relationship.That's one way we can go.
It's called a. We can develop afortress that keeps us safe from
relationship becauserelationship has been so
(06:30):
painful. Yep. And nonresponsive.And then but another thing we
can do is we can become anxious.
Like, just always feeling likeif only we could get the other
person to respond to us the waythat we want them to, then we
everything would be fine. And sowe can kind of that's another
(06:53):
way that we can we can developan attachment wound is to to be
really kind of worried all thetime about whether or not we're
being liked or whether or not wematter, whether or not our voice
matters, whether or not we'rewe're safe, whether or not we
can ever be loved, whether ornot, you know, the the whole
(07:14):
inside of us that was left bythe communion that we came out
of the womb capable of was ableto be manifest or not. And and
so then the 3rd those are the 2big organized responses to
(07:34):
trauma. Then the third responseis to is disorganized. It's
traumatic attachment.
And with with traumaticattachment, then things become
really unpredictable. One minutewe're kind, one minute we're
crazy. You know? One minutewe're Oh. Yeah.
One minute we're stable, oneminute we're clawing off the
(07:54):
handle. One minute we're totallyloving. Another minute we're
raging with jealousy. So oneminute we're there. The next
minute we're like, I can't dothis relationship.
I'm out of here. All of thatunpredictability is the result
of the chasms that appear withinthe kind of the attachment
(08:15):
matrix of the human brain, whichis supposed to be kind of a a if
you could you could think of itas a a beautifully woven piece
of material that has, you know,lots of warp and weft and, you
know, is tightly woven. It'sEgyptian cotton. You know? 1200
(08:35):
thread count.
Dr. Karen Kan (08:37):
Oh, that's so interesting. Yeah. It it
actually that that actuallysounds like more like my mom's
so called personality, becausethere was some major trauma,
like, when she was growing up.
Sarah Peyton (08:49):
Yeah. But
Dr. Karen Kan (08:49):
it wasn't like she was the focus of the
negative energy, but shewitnessed it.
Sarah Peyton (08:54):
Oh, yeah. That leaves traces in the brain. We
can see this.
Dr. Karen Kan (08:57):
So she has this off on, like, happy like like,
really unstable and unhappy, andthey're really gonna sound like,
what is going on?
Sarah Peyton (09:05):
Yeah. Yeah. Oh my goodness. And we have to respond
by often, we respond by becomingas much ballast as we can to
center and ground our mothers.Yep.
Yep. But then also we have thesechasms within ourselves in the
places where she wasn't able tobe predictable, and we ourselves
(09:28):
also can kind of carry forwardthat unpredictability.
Dr. Karen Kan (09:33):
Wow. Wow. That's very, very interesting.
Sarah Peyton (09:35):
This is finish that metaphor of the Egyptian
cotton. It's supposed to beEgyptian cotton with all these
thread with high fry threadcount. But when we're
traumatized or when our parentsare traumatized and are are
unpredictable with us, it's likeknife slashes through the
Egyptian cotton, whereas secureattachment is just, you know,
(09:56):
lovely warp and weft, 1200thread count, beautiful, smooth,
say easy sailing. But we can thegood thing is that we as we do
the work that both of us teach,it starts to restore that that
fabric of connectedness.
Dr. Karen Kan (10:16):
Mhmm. Wow. That's great. So, I love that visual,
you know, of of the material andit being tightly woven and
beautiful and even, and, thatwould be, like, the stability of
of that connection. And then itthe trauma being literally,
like, rips, and then we are,like, repairing.
Reminds me of that, cartoonBrave where she slashes the
(10:41):
family.
Sarah Peyton (10:41):
I don't
Dr. Karen Kan (10:42):
know if you've seen that cartoon. She Oh, okay.
Yeah. In a in a fit of anger,she slashes this tapestry. Her
mom becomes a bear.
And until she weaves it back in,her mom has a limited time to
become human again. So spoileralert, people. But, yeah, it's
similar to that. That's sointeresting.
Sarah Peyton (11:04):
Yeah. Yeah. And in a way, the time span that we
have to weave our mother toweave the fabric back together
so our mother can become humanis our lifetime. Yeah. Because
we can continue the work ofreweaving even after our mothers
are dead.
We can reclaim them frombeardom. Yeah.
Dr. Karen Kan (11:23):
Yeah. From beardom. Yes. Oh, so true. So,
now some people I noticed,Sarah, they're not consciously
aware of trauma.
And trauma is almost like a hipthing to have, you know, these
days. So there's the other campthat are like trauma? I don't
(11:45):
have trauma. So how would onerecognize there was work to do
in this realm withoutnecessarily labeling themselves
as trauma? Like, are there somehints of maybe there's some
things here.
Maybe the the word wound ortrauma is too dramatic for
certain people. Like, what aresome patterns that you see that
(12:07):
would be helpful to go into thiskind of work?
Sarah Peyton (12:09):
Yeah. Well, if we're looking for, you know, the
the this really sort ofbeautiful, steady, tight weave,
then our question is, you know,are we is is the weave within
our brains steady and sweet andbeautiful enough for us? Or is
there some way that we'reattacking ourselves or that our
(12:32):
brains are not cozy places tolive in? I mean, the ideal the I
in in the ideal world wherewe've started to heal our
attachment wounds, our brainsbecome really warm, welcoming
places for ourselves and forothers too.
Dr. Karen Kan (12:52):
Okay. Now some people are not gonna necessarily
identify with their brain. Iknow you have a lot of learnings
in neurochemistry notneurochemistry, you know,
neurology, that kind of thing.So what would it feel like to
not have that stable brainblueprint, if you will?
Sarah Peyton (13:12):
So a number of things that tell us that it's
not cozy inside of our brain.One is, if we always need to be,
eating or smoking cigarettes orplaying video games.
Dr. Karen Kan (13:30):
Okay. Eating, playing video games.
Sarah Peyton (13:32):
Smoking cigarettes, drinking. Yeah.
Drinking. Okay. Weed.
Whatever it is, if we're ifthere's something that we're
doing habitually, always havingNetflix on, if there's something
we're doing habitually thattakes us away from ourself, then
(13:53):
it means that our brain is not acozy welcoming place for us.
Dr. Karen Kan (13:58):
Oh, so those things are self soothing
activities? Or
Sarah Peyton (14:03):
They're very soothing. They're very
restorative in the short term.
Dr. Karen Kan (14:08):
Uh-huh.
Sarah Peyton (14:09):
Our disrupt our brain patterning that has been
disrupted by trauma. So if ourwe have like different colors in
this fabric that we're weaving.We have a color for healthy
anger. We have a color forhealthy disgust. We have a color
for healthy, love and care.
We have a color for healthy,play. We have a color for
(14:33):
healthy, sexuality and authenticexpression of the self. And so
our addictions or our habitswill tell us where the fabric of
self is disrupted. So if wereally find that we turn to
(14:54):
either, sugar, salt, and fat orto opiates, then we can guess
and and and alcohol is allpurpose. Then we can guess that
we can guess that we've beendisrupted in the area of play
and love I'm sorry, of care andlove.
Dr. Karen Kan (15:15):
Okay. So they're like surrogates, but, obviously,
they don't heal.
Sarah Peyton (15:20):
Right. They're trying to they, like, try to put
little patches on the fabric.Ah. That's like what patching
that fabric of attachment.
Dr. Karen Kan (15:29):
Like the scarecrow. Right? Like, just
patching them.
Sarah Peyton (15:34):
And and if we're smoking weed, then we're putting
patches on the play circuit.We're putting
Dr. Karen Kan (15:41):
patches on the
Sarah Peyton (15:43):
play circuit. Yeah. On the on our ability to
it's it means that our abilityto play has been compromised.
And and, if we're, relying onit's it's a little more complex
than that. We can also gotoward, towards balance and
homeostasis, but play balancesand creates homeostasis for our
(16:07):
bodies.
It's quite a lovely
Dr. Karen Kan (16:11):
Well, let me let me ask you about play for a
moment here. Because to me, playis relative. So so meaning that,
you know, if somebody elseoutside looking in to my life,
they'd be like, wow. You'rereally in front of that computer
a lot.
Sarah Peyton (16:28):
Mhmm. You know?
Dr. Karen Kan (16:29):
Yes. You go skating. Yes. You do CrestFit.
And, yes, you, you know,sometimes make candles.
And my latest thing is herbalsalves, which is super super
fun. But most of the time, I'mcreating stuff online and and
doing that kind of stuff. Butthe thing is, it's not like a 9
to 5 job where people don't likewhat they do, and it's work. To
me, that is play. So whatever'shappening to my brain, I I get
(16:55):
so enthused, and it's so fun.
Sarah Peyton (16:58):
Uh-huh.
Dr. Karen Kan (16:59):
And sometimes, like, even my husband would be
like, are you coming out? Like,take a break. You know? But for
me, it's like, I've been playingso much.
Sarah Peyton (17:08):
Yeah. Of course. So You know, like Yeah. That's
not I need
Dr. Karen Kan (17:12):
to play board with you.
Sarah Peyton (17:14):
That kind of expression is is play, but it's
also the expression of your trueself. Emergence. It's your
sexuality. It's it's yourauthentic being that's coming
out in what you're doing. So, Imean, that's pretty powerful
double double whammy ofexpression there, both play and
who you are.
Dr. Karen Kan (17:36):
It can look like not play though. I can
understand that right from otherpeople's perspective, because
they're not feeling what I'mfeeling.
Sarah Peyton (17:42):
Right. It takes us to the video games and and part
of what video games are helpingus do is it video games pop us
out of our default mode network,which is the automatic voice of
the brain.
Dr. Karen Kan (17:56):
Mhmm.
Sarah Peyton (17:57):
So, it puts us in our seeking circuit and lets us
balance dopamine. So it's like alittle patch on our we're
talking about these patches on,on our attachment fibers, and
this patch is a patch thatpatches up the seeking circuit
and makes us feel like we'regetting things done. So what we
what we really wanna know is,is, like, when you wake up in
(18:25):
the morning, do you feel a senseof delight that Karen has
arrived in a wake awaken. That'swhat what we wanna know.
Dr. Karen Kan (18:39):
Like to sleep in. But,
Sarah Peyton (18:42):
When you shower, is there a sense of wonder and
happiness and welcome for yourphysical body when you're doing
self care? Is there you know,that's what we wanna know. We
find the question the answer tothis question you're asking, if
we don't know that we'recarrying the aftereffects of
attachment wounds, how might weguess that we are? We carry the
(19:05):
aftereffects of our attachmentwounds in the moments of quiet
where where we notice, oh, isthere anxiety? Is is it hard to
just rest and goof off?
Do when we start to hang outwith family or friends and and
(19:26):
people are laughing, do we startto just feel, like, really
nervous and really wanna gowork? You know, we wanna know we
wanna know whether the inside ofyour own brain is not just
welcoming your emergentexpression of the divinity of
your message and your work inthe world. We wanna know whether
(19:48):
your brain is is kind ofcreating this reverberating echo
chamber of love for you and, ofcourse, for the people around
you. But
Dr. Karen Kan (19:59):
Okay. That that's really helpful. Like, I I was at
a a little party, the other daywith with my friends, and I just
felt like I wasn't thinkingabout work. You know? So, you
know, it's really cool.
First of all, I was giving awaymy bomb, so I wanted to know
what they thought of it. But,you know, we're exchanging, you
know, presents afterwards, andwe just had a lot of fun. You
know, just like being presentand playing games and stuff is
(20:22):
some of the things we do withsome of our local people. So
when it's planned out, and Iknow I have a lot of work, but
when it's planned out, I'm ableto do that. I can thoroughly
enjoy that and not think about Igot this to do over here.
So that's much better than itused to be. Uh-huh. Like before,
like, decades, I would feelguilty
Sarah Peyton (20:42):
Yeah.
Dr. Karen Kan (20:43):
Because I would have things to do, and I would
be over here planning this gettogether, whatever, and then but
I'd be like, oh, but I have thisloads of things to do over here.
So it just seems like that's notit's not encroaching on that
playtime. So that's good. Yeah.That feels healthier these days.
Sarah Peyton (21:03):
Good. It's really a sign of the growth that you're
talking about.
Dr. Karen Kan (21:08):
Yeah. It's really interesting. Well, I, you know,
I was talking to a loved one,and and at the time of this
recording, my my father's notdoing that well and could
potentially pass away at anymoment, supposedly. So the loved
one was, you know, talking abouthow, she hasn't been sleeping
(21:28):
because of worry. And I thoughtback to I used to be the poster
child for being worried.
Like, I would not sleep atnight. I was a a young person, a
teenager. Like, I would juststay up all hours because I was
worried.
Sarah Peyton (21:43):
Yeah.
Dr. Karen Kan (21:43):
And that was normal. That was my default. And
then when she said this aboutwhat's happening now,
understandably, right, it's aloved one, and, I thought, woah.
I've come a long way.
Sarah Peyton (21:54):
That's wonderful.
Dr. Karen Kan (21:55):
You know? Because I can go to bed and have that
faith that yeah. I could yeah.Maybe he would die. Maybe not.
I don't know. You know? But it'slike, I'm okay, and everything's
gonna be okay. So I'm not goingto bed worried that, you know,
somebody might die. This mighthappen or this might happen.
Like, I was the what if girl.Like, I I I was supposed to
(22:17):
tell, so I could be so anxiousabout I wouldn't call it anxiety
at the time. Yeah. I have
Sarah Peyton (22:23):
a friend of yours updates, brain change
notifications. Is it that we arethat as we grow and we can do
new things and we notice allthis is so different now than it
was before.
Dr. Karen Kan (22:37):
Yeah. It's kinda neat having the contrast Mhmm.
You know, of that. So what aboutthis pattern of, like my current
understanding is sometimes thethe people around me will
reflect back to me some unhealedparts of my shadow.
Sarah Peyton (22:57):
Yeah.
Dr. Karen Kan (22:58):
So, you know, if, for example, my partner is
playing video games. Right? Themaybe there's a that part of me
that is like, well, you could bemore productive. Don't you have
a mission or something? Youknow?
You know what I mean? Therethere could be a judgment there.
So what what is that about, thisreflection that's coming back
and the judgment that might becoming back? Well,
Sarah Peyton (23:22):
we first of all, when somebody is playing video
games, they disappear into them,and they lose their relational
connection to people who aren'tin the video game with them. So
our experience of being withsomebody, it's something we're
(23:44):
all sort of sliding into havinga fortress around ourselves
about to come back to one of thetypes of attachment wounds. When
someone else is paying attentionto something that's not us and
we're in the relational space,then we start to try to accustom
ourselves to not being met, tonot being to kind of
(24:08):
experiencing a kind of alarmedaloneness. So the person a
playing the video game ismanaging their default mode
network any way in which theyhave anxiety or an internal
voice that's unpleasant. They'reable to turn it off most
completely with especially firstperson shooter video games take
(24:29):
people out of their automaticinner critic voice most
completely.
Dr. Karen Kan (24:35):
Really?
Sarah Peyton (24:36):
Yeah.
Dr. Karen Kan (24:37):
That's interesting. Why why why is that
if it's a first person shootergame? Or
Sarah Peyton (24:42):
It activates the salience network and the visual
attention network of the humanbrain, which is comp completely
a different network than theinternal rumination network.
Dr. Karen Kan (24:56):
Okay. Yeah. I I heard about the default salient
network recently from a friendof ours, Jeff Virginia. I can't
believe it helps brain stuff aswell. Like, an expert like
yourself.
And that was the first I've everheard of it. Like, it like, he
was explaining it was like thedefault.
Sarah Peyton (25:08):
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Karen Kan (25:11):
And and, also explaining that the, anterior
anterior midcingulate cortex,that if there's something that
we think would be good for ourhighest and greatest good to do,
but we don't wanna do it. But ifwe go, I'm gonna do it. So an
example would be, you know, myhusband and I do, like, this
cross fit type exercise. And,you know, some of the people who
were just practicing, he wouldsay to them, look, I know
(25:33):
sometimes you wake up, you don'twanna exercise. You just don't
wanna do it.
Right? It's cold out, you know,whatever. He's like, just do the
warm up. So so what happens isyou do the 10 minute warm up,
and by the end of the warm up,you wanna do it. You wanna do
the rest of the workout.
So that and so Jeffrey wassaying, if you do that, you're
actually you're actually,turning off the default salient
(25:54):
network, and you're actuallyamplifying or growing the
anterior midcingulate cortex,that conscious part of
ourselves. And that's a goodthing. You know, that that
discipline, I guess, does that.We're not talking about forcing.
We're not talking about, like,forcing us to go to work while
we hate going to work.
That's not the same thing. Soit's fascinating.
Sarah Peyton (26:14):
Yes. Yes. So there we are, person a, playing their
video game. Not any part oftheir no part of their brain
that does relationality now isonline.
Dr. Karen Kan (26:25):
Mhmm.
Sarah Peyton (26:26):
And the same thing is true. This is why I say that
we're all developing thisfortress because whenever
somebody looks at their at theirtelephone at their mobile
telephone, they're managingtheir, they're managing their
seeking circuit. They'remanaging dopamine. And and each
time that we do that, we we moveaway from our person. We're not
(26:48):
in relational space with ourperson.
So so then person b has to putstart to begin to put up a
fortress to defend themselvesagainst the constant sense of
that that that person a is notavailable.
Dr. Karen Kan (27:05):
Oh, it's not available. Okay. Well, isn't
that similar? I'm gonna be, youknow, angel after the get double
that kid, whatever you call it.Whereas if I'm in if I'm online
and I'm doing work online,whether it be a team meeting or
a course I'm creating or anemail sequence I'm writing,
something like that, how is thatdifferent than somebody going
and playing a video game?
(27:26):
Because I'm on a screen awayfrom that person. That person
feels abandoned potentially. I'mnot projecting that. But
Sarah Peyton (27:32):
Yeah.
Dr. Karen Kan (27:33):
So how how is that different?
Sarah Peyton (27:35):
It's not.
Dr. Karen Kan (27:36):
It's not.
Sarah Peyton (27:37):
It's not. And often people when people are
looking at their video theirgame their telephones, not their
video games, but when they'relooking at their telephones,
they're often working. They'reoften checking work email.
Dr. Karen Kan (27:48):
Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah Peyton (27:48):
There's no difference. Not no difference at
all.
Dr. Karen Kan (27:51):
The other person can still feel abandoned, can
still start to, you know, makethat fortress, so that they're
like, I'm I'm not great aboutbeing abandoned.
Sarah Peyton (28:00):
That's right. That's right. Right. Wow. Yeah.
And since we're so since we areI mean, can't remember what the
statistics are on how often anaverage person checks their
phone a day.
Dr. Karen Kan (28:11):
A lot.
Sarah Peyton (28:12):
600 times or something. We're all in this
kind of spotty attention placethat's somewhat different than
what it was before the advent ofof mobile phones. I mean, people
have always been able to beworkaholics. So mother was
always able to start canning thepeaches instead of having a, you
(28:35):
know, conversation with theirchild or trying to multitask and
have a conversation with theirchild while they're getting
their peaches. And it's, youknow, it's it's always been
there as part of what we of whatwe're juggling as humans.
Dr. Karen Kan (28:54):
Yeah. So I I don't think technology is gonna
go away anytime soon. Andcertainly, you know, good or not
good, we are becoming morereliant, you know, on them. Just
like nobody that I know uses awashing board to wash their own
clothes anymore. Right?
I mean, we still utilize like,you know, as technology
(29:16):
improves, we're we we, generallyspeaking, adapt the the
technology, and we get fasterand faster at doing certain
things. And yet we still findtime to be busy and not
connecting necessarily.
Sarah Peyton (29:30):
I mean, the relational space is the space
that's most open to trauma.Mhmm. So we're really, you know,
I mean, we really protectourselves by working all the
time or by playing games or bychecking our cell phones. We're
kind of walking a little tightrope above that slashed fabric,
(29:52):
You know that we may carrywithin us as an after effect of
our mother's traumas and ourfather's traumas and their
unpredictable behavior.
Dr. Karen Kan (30:01):
So if we're not thinking about like, for
example, I feel like there's alot of stuff in the past that
I've really come to grips withand feel like I cope much better
than I did as a child, certainlygetting more sleep. You know, so
I'm not as worried anymore. Soif I'm still having these
habits, which many of us do,looking at our phones, being
(30:24):
online, that kind of thing. I'mnot a video game person, but,
you know, movies. Like, are were traumatizing ourselves then?
Like, in our society?
Sarah Peyton (30:33):
No. No. We're managing our trauma. We're not
retraumatizing ourselves. K.
We're walking the tight ropeabove the torn fabric. Okay. And
the work that we do, you know,of being self connected, of of
bringing healing to to thoseslashed places, lets us kind of
(30:58):
lower ourselves off off thetight rope that we're walking
and begin to, you know, havethat kind of interpersonal play
that's goofy and spontaneous andand is not does not had has no
object, has no no goal. It'sjust, you know, enjoyment of the
(31:22):
of the moment.
Dr. Karen Kan (31:23):
Oh, yeah. That's a challenge. Oriented. Are you
kidding me? Yeah.
I see what you're saying. So,you know, if people say, okay. I
recognize that, yeah. I'm I'musing whether it be phones,
video games, weed, whatever, topatch up or or to temporarily,
(31:48):
alleviate myself of some ofthese symptoms, of past trauma,
and and I desire to wanna reallyheal them so I don't have to
have these other things. So howwould they start?
Sarah Peyton (32:03):
Well, I love to think of all the different
healing modalities as kind of agiant orange. Okay. You can
start with any segment of theorange, and and no matter which
segment of the orange you'restarting with, it's wrapped in
that white orange stuff. Youknow, that the the the that goes
right down the middle and allaround the outer edges. And and
(32:26):
that's the healing part, youknow, that the healing comes
through any modality.
Mhmm.
Dr. Karen Kan (32:31):
So, so
Sarah Peyton (32:32):
if people start to study with me and they're like,
oh, gosh. I really loverelational neuroscience and what
we learn about the brain and howit makes me easier on myself.
And they and they say, and Ireally love learning about how
language changes a brain andheals trauma, and I'm just gonna
dive right into this. Then aswe, as we dive, in, into the
(33:00):
healing modality, then thebrain, the, the, those fabric,
the fabric begins to repair. Andit can repair through time
travel resonance, you know,where you go back to talk with
your inner child and do aresonant response with the inner
child.
It can be healed throughtraumatic through, somatic
(33:21):
experiencing. You know, PeterLevine's work where people are
not working really verbally orare working with the body and
its responses. Yoga starts tochange the body's relationship
to trauma with with intentionalbreathing and and sort of
strengthening and stretching ofthe of the of the fascia of the
(33:44):
body, energy healing, where wehave this sense of just being
really, you know, surroundedwith light, being held, be,
being in a warm space, havingthe healing, the different
colors of light that come to us,whatever it is that we're
working with, it's going tostart to make a difference in
(34:07):
how in how we are withourselves.
Dr. Karen Kan (34:15):
Okay. Yeah. See that. So what you're saying is
that it's there's no that youthere's no you have to do it
this way or you have to do itthat way. There's so many
modalities really tuning in tofigure out, like, what what do
what do we resonate with?
Like, maybe somebody resonateswith EFT. Maybe somebody
resonates with, you know, what Ido, Toby and Healing. Maybe
somebody resonates with, youknow, coaching, counseling, or,
(34:39):
like, you know, some of themodalities that you mentioned.
And it's that doorway in toreweave our fabric.
Sarah Peyton (34:48):
Yeah. Yeah. We need to find what works for us.
So so being open andexperimental. I mean, some
people find healing throughtheir devotional practices.
Yeah. There's something greaterthan themselves. And some
people, find healing throughbecoming musicians and playing
(35:09):
music and and discovering newavenues to connection with
themselves and othersemotionally. There's so many
different ways to go. It's kindof amazing.
Dr. Karen Kan (35:21):
Mhmm. That's the that's the real plus there that
healing doesn't have to come inone size fits all because it
doesn't.
Sarah Peyton (35:28):
Yeah. I have a friend in Ireland who says that
people who said that songsingers song song singers were
the first psychotherapists.
Dr. Karen Kan (35:38):
Yeah. I believe that.
Sarah Peyton (35:42):
The songs that tell the truth about emotional
experiences, I brought him tothe US once to to talk to us
about the songs of Irishimmigration because there are we
can still sing the songs thatpeople sang, wrote, and sang,
made up and sang passed aroundand sang about this huge you
(36:03):
know, there were so manymillions of of Irish people that
moved out of Ireland to go allover the world in response to
the Irish potato famine. Mhmm.And and at that time, there were
no cell phones. There was noemail. You would write a letter.
You would have to travel byship. You you know, you'd have
contact with your family once ayear or not at all. And so there
(36:27):
was, like, having to manage thisincredible loss and
disappearance, and it was ableto be named and shared and
touched and healed healed bynaming the truth in the songs.
Gotcha.
Dr. Karen Kan (36:44):
Yeah. I just I never really respected, that
piece of of about songs anduntil I was recently reading
the, Sasia series, the Russianring ringing cedars books from
Russia, where she talks aboutthe bards. And then she that the
I'm paraphrasing, but, you know,elevating the bards to the level
(37:06):
of, like, some of the highestvibe people on the planet to to
share the history, and also toteach and heal, you know,
through their stories, throughtheir songs. And I even have,
not that I remember, butsupposedly, I have a past life
in the Myria where I was what'scalled a singer. So a singer
(37:28):
would go town to town, and, singthe the true history of the
people of Lemuria, and then wewould have someone called a
repeater.
And the repeater would copy wordfor word, song by song, what the
singer would say. And then theythat way, they could spread it
out, you know, throughout theland. But the repeater could not
(37:48):
make up their own stuff, whichis very interesting, because
they would lose that job. Ifthey if they twisted or shift it
or distorted anything theoriginal singer said. So there
was really something to that.
This the song and the the yeah.So it's really interesting what
you shared about the Irish.Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
I took
Sarah Peyton (38:08):
him into the prison with me. I was I do,
before COVID, I was doing a abit of volunteer work inside of
a women's prison close to whereI live. And I took him in with
me, and he taught them a songthat the prisoners in the Irish
prisons used to sing in the inthe late 1800. And and so
there's some there was some kindof, you know, like, an honoring
(38:31):
of life experience also throughsong that I found very
interesting there.
Dr. Karen Kan (38:37):
Yeah. Wow. That's really, really cool. Let's talk
a little bit about the languagepiece. Mhmm.
What what is that about and howthat how how can that help us
heal?
Sarah Peyton (38:52):
It turns out that giving each other advice is not
actually something that restoresthat fabric.
Dr. Karen Kan (38:59):
Giving sense.
Sarah Peyton (39:05):
Giving each other advice, instead of giving people
a sense of being making senseand belonging together gives
people a sense of separation.When we give people advice, they
have to build their fortress.
Dr. Karen Kan (39:17):
So it's
Sarah Peyton (39:18):
reinforcement of attachment trauma to give advice
and to try to manage receivingadvice. It creates a flood of
cortisol in humans instead of,giving them a a flood of do
dopamine, which would help themtake action. It it gives them
(39:38):
what's really a shot of alarmedaloneness.
Dr. Karen Kan (39:41):
It it's really challenging. Right? Because we
see someone suffering and theyseemingly unnecessarily have to
do whatever they'reexperiencing. And we wanna give
them advice because we're like,oh, you could do this so much
easier, or I can help you withthis, or someone so could help
you with this. And and then, youknow, that's why I got the text
message last night that said mymom's like, you are controlling.
Stop controlling. And I waslike, oh, that's interesting.
(40:06):
Give you know, I'm I guess theapple doesn't fall from the
tree. But I realized it'sexactly what you were talking
about right now. Because I wassubtly, not so subtly, you know,
sharing that, hey, you know,you're really stressed about,
you know, this logisticsorganization.
I'm calling a phone call. Ican't remember people's names or
their titles, occupationaltherapist, and all that kind of
stuff. There is someone here whocould do that for you.
Sarah Peyton (40:29):
Yeah.
Dr. Karen Kan (40:29):
You know, I'm happy to pay for it. You know,
like but, no. That that got herfortress going.
Sarah Peyton (40:34):
Yeah. Right.
Dr. Karen Kan (40:35):
Because she was feeling like I was encroaching
on what she felt like was herlife. And how dare I, you know,
suggest that somebody help herwith that outside of family. So
I was like, oh, okay. I was notexpecting that feedback, but
(40:58):
okay. I I had a good I used totake everything personally, but,
you know, I just thought it wasreally funny.
You never say, you know, I wascontrolling them. Like, oh,
okay. I heard that one before.
Sarah Peyton (41:08):
Right. Right. And hey. Yeah. And I grew up with
with you, and this is how youmanage all these, stress.
So that's such a an interestingplace to to invite us to start
is, like, what kind of languageinstead of, hey, mom. You could
do this instead of that. Whatkind of language might, support
(41:29):
the fabric that's torn withinher? Right. And
Dr. Karen Kan (41:32):
And and and I'm I am practicing this new thing,
but it's difficult on chat.
Sarah Peyton (41:39):
Oh, yeah. Totally.
Dr. Karen Kan (41:40):
Yeah. So person to person, it it's easier
because you have the bodylanguage. Right? And I could
literally, like, I hear you say,you know, and I could even,
like, if, you know, if mom wasafraid of me, I say, you know,
what I'm hearing if you know,correct me. What I'm hearing is
that you think that I'mcontrolling because I'm trying
to give you advice over this andthat.
(42:01):
Is that true? And you feel x.You feel frustrated. No. I don't
feel frustrated.
Okay. So, you know, I feel sador whatever. Right? To allow
them to communicate how that is.So that's still pretty new for
me.
Sarah Peyton (42:13):
Yes. You know, it is not new. It sounds like
you're practicing nonviolentcommunication that you're Yeah.
Just feelings and talking aboutfeelings and needs. And that's
one type of language that reallydoes touch the fibers, those
broken fibers.
And people can be like, no. Whydidn't you say that? Why didn't
(42:34):
you say I was frustrated?
Dr. Karen Kan (42:37):
Because Yeah. And I and then it's like, oh, okay.
You know, oh, it wasn't that.What was it? You know?
Exactly.
Sarah Peyton (42:45):
Yeah. So, Oh, oh, don't
Dr. Karen Kan (42:47):
you like this one, Sarah? I'm not angry. I'm
not angry. And you're like,okay.
Sarah Peyton (42:59):
No kidding. Oh, and so so one of the things we
can do is we can we can usefeelings and needs. We can make
impossible dream guesses. Youknow? Would you love it, Mom,
would you love it if there was,like, an entire like, a little a
(43:21):
little army of helpers who couldmake phone calls and remember
all the things and track all thenames?
Or it might be a metaphor guesswhere we'd say, oh, mom. Wonder
if if trying to deal with allthis stuff is like being in the
middle of a of one of those icestorms where the little pieces
(43:41):
of ice actually cut cut your cutyour cheeks when the wind is
blowing them. You know? And sothose are some of the ways that
we can talk with people whereit's almost like we're standing
right beside them, not trying tosolve their problems, but being
right in the middle of
Dr. Karen Kan (43:59):
I love that. The the metaphor and, that what did
you call that? The dreamquestions? Yeah. Imposs okay.
Dreams? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.Because I you know, I think that
the other piece of it is andit's so clear, and I don't think
it's just mine.
But just to go, wouldn't youlove to just be able to sit
there and hold dad's hand andjust sing to him or be there all
(44:22):
day and not have to worry aboutcalling this person and that
person and who's buzzing andremembering their names. You
know? That that would be myversion of that impossible
dream.
Sarah Peyton (44:32):
What a beautiful guest that is. It just it just
sort of makes some part of myheart ease and relax when you
even say it. Mhmm. Yeah.
Dr. Karen Kan (44:43):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. Thank you.
Thank you. This is gonna besuper helpful.
Sarah Peyton (44:51):
The so there's research, you know, that takes a
look at the brain and sees whereit's light what kind of language
lights up which part of thebrain. Oh. So the advice stuff
and telling people what to doand being directive lights up
the left hemisphere. The theinstrumental brain, the seeking
circuit. And the this other kindof language, actually, they see
(45:15):
it lighting up the righthemisphere.
This relational language lightenup the right hemisphere. The
right hemisphere is where thisfiber these fibers of attachment
are.
Dr. Karen Kan (45:27):
Okay. Yeah. Okay. So we used to before call the
left brain the logic brain andthe right brain the the
intuitive brain. So these areother titles or names of
Sarah Peyton (45:37):
to talk about it is to say the instrumental brain
and the relational brain.
Dr. Karen Kan (45:41):
Okay. Instrumental brain, relational
brain. Okay. Okay. It's done.
Yeah. That's cool.
Sarah Peyton (45:46):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. When we kinda get done,
we're not pausing forrelationship.
Dr. Karen Kan (45:56):
Well, we are a doing society. Are we not in
many ways? We're conditionedthat way. So we don't get a
pluses for relational expertise.Let's put it that way.
Sarah Peyton (46:11):
No. We don't. It's true. We don't get a pluses. We
don't get bigger salaries.
Metals. Right?
Dr. Karen Kan (46:18):
Extra money, pay. You know? Well, maybe certain
people do, but but yeah. Yeah.It's, it's, it it it's the the
highlighting of of this, andpeople now that you're saying
all these things is like, oh, ofcourse.
Like, it makes so much sense.Our society is not you're not
(46:41):
hearing this on the newsnecessarily. You're not hearing
this in our movies. Right?You're not and our media is not
promoting this complete otherpiece, which is so important for
us to be happy and well.
The relationship with eachother.
Sarah Peyton (46:56):
And the sweet thing about resonance is we
don't have to leave anybodybehind. Like, it's nobody's
responsibility to become the theengine of resonance. So we'd
also wanna catch you and yourmom, you know, in in the moment
where your mom is telling youabout how completely overwhelmed
she is with everything she hasto do, and we wanna catch you
(47:18):
too. You know? We wanna say, oh,Karen, do you need some
acknowledgement that when yourmom is upset and and,
overwhelmed that it that that isI wonder if it's anything like
all of the little leaves on yourtree fluttering in a kind of a
strong wind when your mom isupset.
And if you just really wouldlove there to be ways that, that
(47:43):
where our elders are totallysupported and cared for, where
it didn't have to all fall onus.
Dr. Karen Kan (47:51):
Mhmm. Yeah. That's beautiful. Yeah. That's
beautiful.
And and, you know, it's funnybecause I was asking my family,
whether they would be open to orconsider, someone who is, we
(48:15):
call them end of lifepractitioner or death doulas or
end of life doulas. Because myleft brain was like, well, they
do logistics. They do all thatkind of stuff. The right and and
then, of course, the right brainwas also like, well, they're
really good with people.
Sarah Peyton (48:30):
Yeah.
Dr. Karen Kan (48:30):
Probably, you know, much more skilled than I
am that that way. And, yeah, andit was, it didn't matter what I
said or how I said it. It justyeah. It wasn't, going to be a
popular choice. It was like Igot the feedback.
Well, if you need that, Karen,you go ahead and, you know, get
(48:55):
that support for yourself. Youknow? I was like, I guess I
could use that. You know whatI'm saying? But it was just
funny because, you know, it was.
And but at the same time,respecting my boundaries is,
like, if I don't have to do thisother thing that isn't what I
wanna do, and I have somebodyelse who's an expert who could
(49:16):
do that, my preference would beI'm gonna hire the expert to do
that while I do what's importantto me, which
Sarah Peyton (49:22):
is connecting.
Dr. Karen Kan (49:23):
Yeah. But then, again, meeting people where they
are. If everybody else in thefamily is like, no. I don't
wanna do that because they havea perception of it's it's, you
know, expensive, not needed, anoutside third party. We're gonna
do everything ourselves.
Then it also isn't something forme to force
Sarah Peyton (49:40):
Right.
Dr. Karen Kan (49:40):
Either. Yeah. So I could see what you're saying
is, like, hey. There's thehonoring of where they are and
and, that relational space andhandling that and also where I
am and also, you know, beingempathetic and handling this
piece as well, because that'salso difficult to have everybody
not on the same page.
Sarah Peyton (49:59):
Right.
Dr. Karen Kan (50:00):
Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of our sensitive
souls end up in this category,where on some intuitive level,
they can see sometimes seethings like, wow, that we don't
have to have war. We reallydon't. Right?
But sometimes the way we comeacross might be just so foreign
(50:23):
that it's just not wellreceived. And then we could be
potentially re traumatized
Sarah Peyton (50:28):
Yeah.
Dr. Karen Kan (50:28):
Or not being seen, not being heard, you know,
all taking things personally,all those kinds of things. So
there's a lot of great work inwhat you're doing right now.
Yeah. Helping us all. So tell usabout, first of all, your
website, where people could findyou, and then what kind of
programs and offerings that youhave to support people,
especially us.
Sarah Peyton (50:52):
My website is sarahpayton.com. So no spaces,
just my name. And there's a setof guided meditations that you
can access by pushing the starthealing now button. Oh. Get the
set of guided meditations thatare for free download for you to
be able to kind of walk youthrough, the steps to take to
(51:17):
begin to make your brain areally good place to live where
you can pause for enjoyment andease and self welcome and
welcome of others.
And, and there are also lots ofclasses. I've written a number
of books. There's, the resonantself series with your resonant
(51:41):
self and your resonant selfhandbook that take you again
through these just easy to dokind of steps to be able to
start to change your brain sothat it supports you and makes
makes it sweet to be alive andto be on this planet with with
(52:01):
our other people that we love.
Dr. Karen Kan (52:04):
Oh, that's beautiful. So, we're gonna link
some of those, below, thisvideo. And, as far as, you know,
live group or 1 on 1, do you dosome of those?
Sarah Peyton (52:16):
Yes. Absolutely. And in the beginning of August
or sorry, April, April 5th to5th 5th to 9th or something like
that this year is the resonancesummit, which is a free
experience of getting to stepinto the world of resonance for
4 days with neuroscientistsspeaking and with,
Dr. Karen Kan (52:37):
Are you running that summit? Yeah. Yeah. That's
so exciting.
Sarah Peyton (52:41):
And it's really really
Dr. Karen Kan (52:42):
cool. So this is April 2025, we're talking about
in case people are watchingthis. Right. But, later, but
they can always go to yourwebsite or contact you, right,
if if they're interested in thenext one. Or
Sarah Peyton (52:54):
Yeah. Yeah. And we'll have at the end of
January, we'll have the sign upfor that on. It's sorry. It's
April 3 to 6 is this year.
Dr. Karen Kan (53:01):
Oh, okay. Okay. Wow. That's good. And that's an
online, summit.
Right? Yeah. Okay. Very cool.
Sarah Peyton (53:08):
And get to hear neuroscientists talk about the
brain and get to hear otherpeople doing resonant language
and go to classes with resonantlanguage. There are lots of
classes on the website. Mhmm. Beable to take foundational
classes in resonant language, tolearn to talk to yourself
without giving yourself advice.
Dr. Karen Kan (53:27):
Oh, to talk to ourselves and others. Is that
applicable to others?
Sarah Peyton (53:31):
Yeah. And others.
Dr. Karen Kan (53:33):
Yeah. Okay.
Sarah Peyton (53:34):
And then That's great. Yeah. And then, my one on
one work calendar is quite full,so it's hard to get in. It's
possible, and that's alsoinformation is on the website.
Yeah.
Dr. Karen Kan (53:46):
Awesome. So sarahpayton sorry. Payton.com?
Yes. Your website?
Sarah, do you have, like, onelast piece of wisdom? I won't
call it advice. Wisdom to toshare with with our listeners
and, viewers?
Sarah Peyton (54:03):
If your brain is not being kind to you, it's not
truth, it's trauma. If you thinkyou're a bad person, it's not
truth, it's trauma. If you thinkyou're not good enough or that
you deserve bad things, it's nottruth. It's drama. Your brain is
just trying to make sense of aworld where bad things have
happened, and our default is toblame ourselves.
Dr. Karen Kan (54:27):
Very good to know. Yes. Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. You, Sarah, so muchfor spending quality time with
us today. It was so fun.Appreciate you, and we wanna
make sure that we thank everyonefor viewing and listening in as
well. Remember to check out thelinks near this video or audio
wherever you are listening orwatching this, and we shall see
(54:49):
you next time.
Light Warrior Radio. Bye fornow. Much love, everyone.
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