643: The Sunday Soapbox

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:11):
Hello, friends, and welcome back to your weekly Linux talk show. My name is Chris.
My name is Wes.
And my name is Brent.
Hello, the gentlemen. Well, coming up on this week's of the show,
we're going to stop the clock a little bit, pull a few loose threads from recent episodes.
And, well, some of them may unravel into something that we didn't expect.

(00:32):
But the idea is to catch up on a few things and then round out the show with
some great boosts and picks and a lot more. So before we get there,
let's do a little business and say time-appropriate greetings to our virtual
lug. Hello, Mumble Room!
Hello, and hello all you up there in the quiet listening and everybody out there on the streams.

(00:53):
Thank you for being here this morning. And a big good morning to our friends
over at Defined Networking.
Go check out Manage Nebula at defined.net slash unplug.
They've taken the Nebula project and they've made it easy for anyone to use.
When you go to defined.net slash unplug, you can sign up for 100 devices for
free, no credit card required, and try out the world's most robust,

(01:17):
industry-leading mesh network.
One of the things that I've learned over the years is that when I'm building
my infrastructure, I want something that will last a long time.
And when you really wrap your head around how useful a mesh network is, I mean, it's next level.
It will completely change the way you do networking for the better.
And so when you start to really think that way, you also start thinking long-term.

(01:38):
And what I love about Nebula is absolutely everything is self-hostable.
It's not just sort of like a secondary thing that they kind of have available.
It's how they build the product.
It started that way back in 2017 from the very get-go to protect Slack.
They had to build it ready to go.
And now they've made it easy for anyone to use. And at any point you want to
self-host the infrastructure, you can.
So support the show and get started by going to defined.net slash unplugged.

(02:02):
Redefine your VPN experience today. Defined.net slash unplugged.
So I want to make sure that we remind everybody that we want your submissions. We've got a nice batch.
We don't need thousands, but I'd like to have some more because just around
the corner, it's something special for the holidays. It's the great Holiday Home Lab.

(02:35):
It is that magical time of year. Hopefully your servers are humming.
Someone out there's NAS is running in a cardboard box, no doubt.
We want to see it all from the best home labs to the worst. Send them in.
It's our great holiday home lab. The first ever, go to linuxunplugged.com slash
holiday, where we will redirect you to a Google form.
If you don't want to use the Google form, you can make our jobs harder by going

(02:58):
to linuxunplugged.com slash old fart, and then you can figure out how to take
that and put it in an email with links to stuff and make it work good because it doesn't work good.
I don't know if I'm even going to have the time. I'm just telling you.
But that's LinuxUnplugged.com slash old fart. Submit some photos,
short descriptions, your hardware list. Tell us what your home lab actually does.
We're going to have some awards to give away. The Grand Rack Award,

(03:20):
the Silver Pseudo Award, the Best Effort Award, and then the LUP Rescue Mission
for the home lab that really needs it. And we may even make an episode out of that one in the future.
So we'll be scoring them on functionality, design, ingenuity,
efficiency, documentation, personality, effort, We've had some other suggestions
we may be incorporating.
So the entries are open right now. Get your Homelab in. It doesn't have to be

(03:41):
a killer, although you're welcome to show off a killer.
And later in December, we'll be kicking off the great Homelab.
What do you call it? I guess voting? No? Results? I guess it's the results.
It's the results show. The award show? I don't know.
Homelab review.
We are giving away some awards, so I guess it's technically going to be an award
show. I don't know if we'll call it that.
That doesn't matter. What matters is don't be a procrastinator.

(04:04):
Go to linuxunplugged.com slash holiday, get them in so that way we can all have
a magical home lab holiday thing. It's going to be a lot of fun.
Can't wait to see people send in.
Yeah, think about it. Some people will be away from their home labs at the holidays.
So this maybe will help them feel like their home lab.
So, you know, one of the challenges of doing a weekly show is finding time to

(04:29):
stop and talk about stuff we've already talked about. Because you're always kind of moving forward.
And sometimes we cover something and our thoughts change on it. We use it for a while.
Or a project changes or has updates. And that's really just one example.
Probably I could give you hundreds.
And it's something I wish we could do more often because there is going to be
some recency bias when we do this sort of thing.
So it'd be nice if we could do it a little more often, but as we're kind of

(04:51):
in the holiday season, I thought this would be a good time to look at some of our leftovers.
And I want to touch on something that came up recently on the show.
I came up with a really fun way to spin up an Ngrok tunnel on demand.
And then Wes comes along and says, why don't you try Jelly Swarm instead?
And I thought, hmm, OK. The Jelly Swarm, if you don't remember,

(05:12):
brings all your Jellyfin servers together in one proxy interface.
You can have multiple Jellyfin servers on private networks.
And then depending on how you
make that networking work, you can kind of watch them all from one place.
And that was essentially what I was trying to accomplish. So I do have an old
VPS that I say is sort of an orbit around Lady Joops. and that is already on my mesh network.

(05:32):
So that just made sense because that server can already talk to the Jellyfin server.
Problem solved.
And it has a public IP. So I quite easily installed JellySwarm on this VPS.
You probably just Docker containers.
Yeah. Really quick because it's an old Ubuntu LTS system.
And boy, that's it, man.
It's like because I already was on my mesh network, I just gave it the IP of

(05:55):
my Jellyfin server and the credentials. I love the way it does the mapping for
user logins and accounts.
And it works so great that I'm just totally going to rip out that Endrock tunnel for Jellyfin.
You're not going to make it, like, turn on your swarm or something?
What I'm going to do is I'm going to use that Endrock setup,
or maybe another setup I'll come back to, for NextCloud and Utah,

(06:18):
which I'll talk about in a moment.
But I might just leave my swarm on all the time.
I might just leave it on all the time.
All right. I like it.
I'm thinking about that.
I'm a wee bit sad because you were so proud of that Ngrok setup.
And then Wes just came along and was like, well, here you go.
It's already solved for you. And it's even better.
It is better. It's a jellyfin specific solution. And in my opinion,

(06:41):
if you're comfortable setting this kind of thing up, it more than answers the Plex sharing problem.
To me, it's a solved problem now. So that's really nice. But I do think there
is use for network tunnels. I still think there is.
Yeah, definitely, of course.
Sweepy posted, I was yelling Pangolin at my screen hearing you talk about the
ngrok for Jellyfin access.
Pangolin supports a variety of auth methods, including temporary share links

(07:04):
that you could drop right in your setup.
And it's an identity-aware tunneled reverse proxy server that comes with a dashboard UI.
You can do self-hosted version, and it has a reverse proxy server with identity
and context-aware access controls
designed to easily expose and protect applications running anywhere.
It can act as a central hub that connects isolated networks,
even those behind restrictive firewalls, through encrypted tunnels enabling

(07:27):
easy access to remote services without opening ports or requiring a VPN.
I am, I was aware of this project, but kind of like Ngrok, I'd never really used it.
And so for some reason, I just didn't, it didn't come to mind.
But I kind of, I kind of wonder.
Well, you're only kind of using.
Yes.

(07:47):
Right. Let's like set up an authenticated identity aware project specifically
to only use a temporary access part of it. Maybe.
I was wondering your take on this. Do you think this is overkill?
It depends because depending on how much friction there is, that might not actually
be a bad thing at all. And you might find, as usual with good software,
that you like other aspects of it. Or you want to use it to expose more.

(08:08):
Maybe you expose more of your things if they're all put behind 2FA'd proper authentication.
I do like that it's AGPL3 and you can self-host it.
Yeah, it is a neat project. I've only played with it, set it up as a test one
time. But I know a lot of people do seem to like it.
Well, Sweepy sure does. He was screaming at it.

(08:30):
We got multiple folks writing in about Pangolin, both in the Matrix and across a few channels.
And I saw it in his package for NixOS with some options.
Well, now you don't have an excuse. If you could just turn it on with a quick option.
Here's what I'm going to use my Ngrok tunnel for, or maybe Pangolin.
I do think it would be, sorry.
Oh, no, go ahead.
I do think it would be informative, maybe, to set it up and just see what the

(08:53):
actual swap out from Ngrok to Pangolin would be like as a potential way to evaluate,
like, oh, what do you like about it?
Yeah, my first impressions.
Was- Even if you throw it all away.
It was a lot. It was my first impression. It was a lot. I do like,
so it has a dashboard where you can toggle tunnels on and off and stuff like
that and see the status. And an API.
But I'm already achieving that same thing with Home Assistant,

(09:14):
which is already a workflow I already use and my family uses.
I imagine I could probably do the same thing with Pangolin. Probably tied in
Home Assistant, no problem.
I sort of solved for that problem already. I don't really need a dashboard.
I don't know. All right. So here's what I will be using a tunnel for.
Not for me, actually, but for the wife. And this is an app pick that we had
that was on my radar. Wanted to try it more.

(09:36):
Wes found it. And the audience wrote and said, this is really good.
And I'm like, OK, this week I'm going to try Utah.
It, as you might recall, is a self-hosted web app that automates downloading,
organizing, and scheduling YouTube channel content.
A la flat pinch or pinch flat, sorry. But a couple of things I like a little bit better.
It's a lot better at one-off video downloads. That's killer for what my wife wanted.

(10:01):
So this is a common scenario that happens a few times a week.
It's not horrible, but it's a few times a week.
I get a telegram from the wife that says, hey, so-and-so said we should really
check out this video. Can you grab it for us?
I'm like, yeah, no problem. That's a problem. I'll go get it.
And I've been doing that for years.
And then this comes along. And I'm like, oh, wait a minute. If I combine this
with the Ngrok tunnel, she can just plug the URL in at work.

(10:24):
Yes.
And then when she gets home, they're all queued up on the Jellyfin server,
ready to go. And we don't have to watch them over YouTube, over our crappy LD
connection at the moment.
I love that.
You're like outsourcing your main purpose at home.
I mean, I've thought about this so much over the years, both for myself and
for past partners. Like, I think at one point I had a basic CGI form that would

(10:45):
just run YTTLP and dump it to like a Dropbox.
Or I've thought about, you know, a web interface you could load in videos that
would just sort of get mixed into a live stream that you constantly Chromecasted.
But now that everything just integrates with Jellyfin, I mean, that's the way to go.
So what's really great is, and I hadn't played with this before,
we talked about this as a pick, is it has integrated sponsor block.

(11:09):
And so that's really nice. I don't go crazy with that. But as somebody who's
made videos and audio for a long time,
I hate the double intro where they tell you what they're going to tell you.
Then they do an intro and then they tell you what they're going to tell you again.
Oh, my God. It drives me crazy. It's such a waste of time. So like Sponsor Block

(11:31):
lets you skip intros and stuff like that. I'm all about that.
I don't need to see their $75 motion graphics that they paid for for their YouTube channel.
Every single time.
With their music they think is super great and all of that. So it just lets
me skip all of that integrated.
But then the other thing that's really fantastic, I'm not a Plex user,
but it will still download metadata information and NFO and thumbnails and whatnot

(11:52):
and save them in a format Jellyfin just immediately ingests.
So when she sits down and pulls up Jellyfin, it looks like all the other videos
and it sits right nicely next to our Pinchflat videos, which I'm using Pinchflat
to download channels as they post.
So like this channel, every time they post, I'm downloading that video.
I'm using Utar, which you could use it that way,

(12:15):
Could, so you could just use one tool to do both.
Right, you already had Pinchflat. I already had Pinchflat.
I'm using Utah for the one-off download.
I love that.
And then I have to go to a specific spot on the file system,
so I know those are all Utah downloads.
Gets classified the right way.
And also, I've discovered now, it handles really well at recovering failed downloads.
I had a download bail on me, and that's worked nice.

(12:36):
The web UI works good on the wife's phone. It works good on her laptop.
So this is a winner app. I can tell already it's going to be in a category of
winners. Now, there are a couple of things I'd love to see.
It'd be nice if you could have it download channels on the regular, like I use Pinchflat.
So every time a channel posts a video, every time Jupyter Broadcasting has a

(12:57):
video, it automatically downloads.
It'd be nice if those could go to one place and my manual one-off downloads
could go to a totally different location.
Optional, but it'd be nice. Currently, it's all going to one spot.
You only have one place to target it.
Yeah, and if you download a channel, it creates a subdirectory for that channel.
But if you download a one-off, it doesn't create a subdirectory for just that
video. They're just in the root, and it's just not how I do my Jellyfin.

(13:21):
I'd like to have a cleaner Jellyfin.
But I do love it for those one-off downloads, and that's sort of a small gripe.
And since I'm using Pinchflat to manage the channels, it's not really an issue for me.
But setting subfolders for manual downloads would be great. I did see issue
287 on the project. Actually, somebody already flagged that.
I was like, I'll just go give this a plug. one give it the old plus one but

(13:45):
man a couple of winners and then before I'm done with my holiday leftovers for you boys,
I got to give a huge mention to, I think, one of the MVPs of this year.
We covered it multiple times on the podcast, but we called the big D, Darowich.
It is a self-hostable alternative to Google Timeline for your location history.

(14:07):
And it's very comprehensive. They have a standalone app for iOS.
You can integrate it with things like OwnTracks.
If you have Home Assistant, there's an integration where Home Assistant can
collect your location and then send it to Darowich.
And it's been our constant companion. I'm running it still since we talked about
it the first time on the show.
It was the back end to our Texas tracker. It powered our Texas tracker.

(14:28):
And there have been many releases since we deployed. I was shocked.
So we deployed version 2.8. And they're on like version 3.6 now.
Oh, that's exciting.
0.36. Yeah. Yeah. It's massive, massive improvements since we first talked about
it on the show. So, I mean, lots of refactoring little components.

(14:52):
So, like, some of the subsystems that process subtasks run a lot more efficient.
Cleanup of the UI in general. Just a little bit of, you know, fixing a bug here.
Polish.
Performance issue there. Right, exactly. A lot of that.
So that all aside, there's a few things that really stood out to me.
In the .29 release that came out a little bit after we deployed,

(15:12):
they greatly improved the data export. So you can move data between instances.
So if you want to export from one Darawitch instance and set up a new one,
you can just move your data and all your history comes.
That's great. That seems perfect for us.
Yep. Really nice. We will definitely be using that. And then in the next version,
well, a couple of versions later, actually version 3.0.31, they call this the

(15:33):
search release. They introduced a new search feature that allows you to search
for all the places you've traveled.
Oh, that's killer.
That is obviously needed. Here's a big one for me. A little bit later,
version 0.34 released on October 10th, 2025.
This is the family release. This release, we are introducing family features
that allow users to create family groups, invite members, and share location data.

(15:55):
Family owners can manage members, control sharing settings, and ensure secure
access to shared information. Location sharing is optional and can be enabled
or disabled by each member individually.
Users can only join one family at a time. Location sharing settings can be set
to share location for 1, 6, 12, or 24 hours or permanently.
And they're available for self-hosted instances. It will be available when they
have a cloud version in the future.

(16:16):
The family members layer is enabled on the maps too, so you can see where your
member markers are and turn them on and off on that layer.
Right, because before it had users, but they were all kind of separate,
right? It was more of just like a multiplexed kind of use the service.
We were each at our own map, basically.
And we combined it on our own by just pulling from the API. Oh, wow, that's nice.
It is. And also for those of you that maybe switched to Graphene OS from iOS,

(16:42):
Maybe you've been looking for a good Find My replacement. This could be it.
I use Home Assistant for that, but this could be even better.
You've got a nice web UI now.
That's massive. So that was on the 10th of October.
And they've had some steady releases since then. They just had a release a couple of days ago.
And so I did the right thing and updated my private instance this morning before the show.

(17:06):
Probably not even. Probably just skipping right from wherever you were at to the latest release.
I went from, well, thankfully, thankfully, I was just one release after a breaking change.
So if I was one release older, I would have had to do some Docker composer factoring,
and I would have to switch from one database to Redis.
I don't know what the previous database was, but there was a database software

(17:28):
migration to a totally different software.
I would have had to do all of that. But I just missed that, and I went and I skimmed it.
I have the change log linked in the show notes if you're in a similar position,
listener. I went through it, I skimmed it, I'm like, holy crap,
this is, oh man, this is so good, oh, I gotta do it.
I can't not have this. And you couldn't even, because you hadn't updated it

(17:50):
yet, you couldn't even do the export beforehand.
Nope, nope, I just yellowed in. But it worked.
It was a big download, it was almost 600 megabytes of layers,
I guess it's not horrible, but on LTE it was painful.
And rebooted the sucker, came right back up, still talking to home assistants,
still getting my location. It's fabulous.

(18:11):
Love having this because I've been driving around a bit for kids' sports events
and stuff like that. And so just going to different places.
And so now pulling that up on the map, like, oh, yeah, I went over there last
week. I forgot about that. I never go over there. So that's been fun.
Yeah, the pros of the old Google location tracking, but without,
you know, all the creepy downsides.
Yeah, it is. And when you set up a new family member, it gives you a QR.

(18:32):
If they're on iOS, they make it
really easy because they have a dedicated location tracking app for iOS.
And so you can hear a family member scan this QR code. It sets up the iOS Darowich
tracking app, and it looks really straightforward.
And even if you're on Android, there's a dozen easy ways, including just using Home Assistant.
Just do that.
Just use Home Assistant. Just do that. You only have one thing tracking your location.

(18:55):
Massive, massive recommendation. So that's a little bit of my holiday leftovers.
I mean, I could go on for the whole episode. We've really found some bangers this year.
But maybe I don't know. Maybe you got something for you. You got a holiday leftover
for us, Wes Payne, for the class to share? you know something to chat about.
Yeah um i actually i have something i want to work through oh a question okay

(19:16):
or like maybe how to frame how to view something happening in the kernel because
i'm not entirely sure how i feel oh boy and i don't know if this is a year of vindication,
or a year of chris was right.
Oh i like it already.
Yeah i thought you might i thought you might So it turns out it's been a bit

(19:37):
of a busy year for our friend KSMBT.
Oh, the Samba server that got built into the Linux kernel by Samsung.
Yeah, that's right. One of your favorite parts of the Linux kernel.
Yep, yep. We can't have BKatch FS, but we've got a Samba server built into our
kernel. What could go wrong?
Yeah. How many commits do you think that thing sees in a year?
Oh, that's a great question, Wes. I don't even think I've ever considered that.

(20:00):
I mean, the year's in over, so I've been looking at 2025. But, you know.
In a whole year?
Yeah.
In a whole year? Oh.
I mean, you should think it'd be mostly done. So I'm going to say less than 1,000.
Oh, yeah, yeah. It was more than I thought at 194.
Well, I was going to say 100, but then I thought, well, then I thought you were
going to get me with they've had a whole bunch of security issues,

(20:21):
so they've had to do a whole bunch of commits or something.
I was going to guess 10 because I figured they weren't doing anything.
Doing nothing.
It is kind of that.
Oh, OK.
Because 91 of the, no, sorry, 41 of those match on a grep for something like
fix, leak, crash, overflow, use after free, recursive locking and RPC handle. Let's see here.

(20:45):
Fix possible ref count leak. Fix possible memory leak. Fix race condition.
There's just a whole bunch of those.
It's not all bad, though, right? So just a bit of history.
KSMBD came out in 2021.
Right, right. We were doing Linux action news at the time.
And then somewhere like late 2022, maybe it was early 2023, I think it was kernel

(21:06):
6.6, it got marked as no longer experimental, marked quote-unquote stable.
Okay.
So another part of this story, I think, is what does it mean to be in the kernel
in terms of like the contract for the user and what to expect out of something?
Between even you know even after post-experimental status
right there's there's one kind of version where you want to

(21:27):
have access to stuff so that you get to make the call around do
i want to use that software and butterfs is another one of these things right
we've seen enterprise distros not ship it red hat particular red hat does not
ship ksmpd they specifically said they were going to take a conservative approach
and not enable it okay but maybe we feel differently about those two choices,
which, I mean, makes sense.

(21:48):
Huh. So this, to me, too, this is a great question because I think in the broader context...
There's been a lot of controversy around Rust and a lot of drama and social brigading.
And there has, of course, been the BcashFS situation.

(22:08):
And there is this situation. These are all oddities to me.
And they all seem, I think the core thing that you're getting to is they all
seem to maybe have a different standard being applied to them.
And that's really hitting me at this moment is like they really tolerated a
lot of shenanigans from Rust. and including Linus yelling at some longtime committers to STFU.

(22:30):
And that this Samba server is in this kernel so that way a few hundred thousand
million Samsung devices can have faster file transfer?
So that's where it's interesting. So it does continue to see development, as we've seen.
Just coming in 6.18, which maybe is out today, there's improved session,

(22:51):
sharing, connection, lookup performance. They're also adding a new max IP connections
parameter to better control rate limiting, essentially improved socket creation,
a bunch of nice improvements.
At the beginning of the year, I guess some users were playing around enabling
this thing on TrueNAS now that that's, you know, Linux under the hood.
And they were seeing some pretty impressive improvements specifically for on

(23:12):
the right side, also for latency in terms of just like if you're doing like
a lot of small operations on files or a lot of metadata, file creation, that kind of thing.
And I guess it was adopted by OpenWRT. So there are some sort of embedded use cases.
Another aspect ksmbd has is
um smb direct which is essentially rdma and

(23:33):
so you can set it up between linux and like two linux boxes say on a trusted
network with ksmbd enabled you don't have to bother the cpu to to offload from
memory over the network at super fast line rate so there are some places where maybe it makes sense.
I guess so um i guess what it says to me is that it sounds like we have a major

(23:54):
bottleneck issue on Linux for things that have to run in user space.
And if there's such a performance difference between running in kernel versus
running in user space talking to the kernel, perhaps we should address whatever that issue is.
But then the other thing that strikes me is it's kind of not apples and oranges
comparison because if you first looked at WireGuard when it first shipped and
you compared WireGuard to the Go user space versions of WireGuard,

(24:17):
WireGuard in the kernel was...
Way faster and way more performant. But then over the years,
operations like Tailscale and others worked at optimizing the user space binaries.
And now the performance is very comparable and in some use cases,
better in the user space version.
But they're comparing it against a version where they haven't really optimized

(24:38):
for that situation to a hyper optimized version in the kernel that's like a
slim down version of Samba that doesn't feature everything.
It is, you're right. It definitely doesn't feature everything.
Like it doesn't do a lot of the
active directory stuff. so it's not really suitable for that kind of role.
Interestingly, I think they were already working on it, but when KSMED came
out, Samba actually went ahead and implemented a bunch of, like the user,

(25:01):
the regular Samba distribution, implemented a bunch of work to take on IOU ring.
So there are cases where, like in some of that early testing.
See, now that makes sense to me, though.
Yeah, they were getting like 10x throughput.
Because that's a generic facility provided by the kernel for these types of things.
That seems like the better route to go than just shoehorning in a Samba server
because Samsung wants it.

(25:24):
I mean, again, there are some limitations in terms of just, you know,
overhead as well as like you're probably not.
There are just some shorter paths available and less context switching. If you do.
For sure. Yeah. So why not put Firefox in the kernel? Really?
Why don't we put NFS in the kernel? Should we put FTP in the kernel?

(25:44):
Yes, probably. Yeah.
Like, I mean, where do we draw the line? Because, yes, obviously putting things
in the kernel makes them a little bit faster, especially when it comes to using
subsystems like disk and network.
But you could say that about everything. Like, why not put Hyperland in the
kernel? Let's put Wayland in the kernel. Let's put effing everything in the kernel.
I mean, hell, let's do it. Let's see what happens because I don't see the logic.

(26:06):
Okay. So you're already on this side. But this year also saw.
And so this is where I think I do have some questions. So there's one narrative
here that says all of the reasons that we thought this architecture was a bad
idea in 2021 are kind of playing out here.
Who could have seen this coming?
Yeah. But I mentioned there was like 194 commits. 91 of those are from Steven

(26:27):
Metzmacher, who's a longtime Samba dev who was working in the kernel before
this, but including doing some of the work to get the IOU ring support.
But it seems like the Samba world has sort of accepted that this is there.
And I'm wondering if we're seeing this flurry of activity, does that also maybe
mean that there's enough folks that are finding it valuable that it makes sense

(26:49):
to invest in making this more secure and robust?
It's like at the beginning of the year, the security firm, Doyensec,
announced that they were going to start looking into KSMBD.
And then just now like in October they've been doing some more write-ups and
they actually produced a really nice well the GitHub linked for one of the CVEs
this year like a really nice reproducer with all the code open even a little

(27:12):
script to run a QEM UVM for you to like start running,
it wow yeah,
So that sort of says, okay, one version is just we want to show how bad this
is and it's a terrible idea.
Another version is folks are using this. We should make it robust.
And maybe now we're in a place where it can be more robust and sufficiently

(27:33):
tested to not be a horrible hole.
I think there's a detail in there. And that detail is they've built it and it is faster.
So, of course, we're going to use it. Right? That's the thing.
If you do this, it's going to end up having users.
And then we're going to have to keep it.
That's why you don't build it and put it in the kernel in the first place, because it is faster.

(27:55):
It is better for things like small arm devices, routers, things like that, obviously.
And of course, vendors want to be able to sell you a plastic box that does Wi-Fi
and has a USB port on it so you can have a NAS.
Yeah.
And so for that, we all have to walk around with a kernel that has Samba,
unless your distro provider takes it out.

(28:16):
Now, I think if they hadn't built it, we wouldn't be, I mean,
this, of course, like, why not put, I mean, again, I go back to this,
but if we put cups, again, if we put cups in the kernel, it would be faster.
And what would happen over time, it would take a few years, is more people would start using it.
And then the question becomes, well, what happens to traditional cups?
Samba is a project that has a 20 plus year massive legacy.

(28:40):
And I think they're probably safe because of the complicated nature of a lot
of Samba setups and the features that they need.
But if you put something else in the kernel like this, it would probably cannibalize the main project.
So just for a little more flavor as well, you may remember, but earlier this
year, there was a Linux kernel zero day discovered using chat GPT.

(29:03):
Yeah, right.
That was for KSMBD.
Oh, my. Really? Of course. That's that. Of course.
There was also, there was a couple of remote takeover bugs where you did have
to be, you did have to have valid user credentials, but like when you were signing
off, you could trigger a race condition that lets you run arbitrary code in the kernel.
There was a very easy denial of service bug, so it's a little less,
you know, it's not taking over your box, but it is taking you off the network

(29:27):
called KSMBD drain or KSMB drain, say that five times, which was a trivial,
unauthenticated attack.
You basically just did the start of a TCP conversation and then just disappeared.
And the kernel would never free the resources that it set up,
assuming you were trying to talk to its KSMBD Samba server.
That's a good one.
And of course, because it's in the kernel, you don't have the normal sort of

(29:49):
out-of-memory or special handling, right? That's kernel memory that it gets to eat up there.
Yeah, your user space, out-of-memory killers, not doing anything about that.
And then probably the worst was this one that DoyenSec found this really great reproducer for,
which would be 37947, which got a 10 on the CVSS score because it allowed a

(30:09):
regular authenticated user with simple file write access to reliably and deterministically
without needing to win a race condition,
bypass all the modern kernel stuff, KSLR, all that, and become root.
So it is also i think as folks in the uh in our matrix rumors suggesting if
you are if i think you're right if you put this in there people are going to

(30:30):
use it and if you're going to use it there's going to be problems so probably
this is this isn't really screaming out for rustification if anything in the kernel it's right yeah.
Maybe maybe you know all i have to say about it,
Well, thank you. That was quite cathartic. I appreciate that,

(30:53):
Wes. That was a nice holiday gift you gave me.
You know, I picked that topic actually hoping that the story was going to go the other way.
Really?
And I would get to have a, like, look at how great KSMD is doing. But, you know.
Oh, that's so good. Well, Brentley, you know, one of the things that we've talked
on and off over the years, that's been years now, if you guys can believe it,
is our adventures with Graphene OS.

(31:14):
We're still rocking Pixel 7s all around with the Graphene OS on there,
which just recently got a new update.
Yeah, things are bolder, it seems.
Yeah, I like it. At first, I didn't like it because my lock screen UI changed.
My clock changed.
It feels snappier to me.
Yeah.
Like consistently snappier.

(31:35):
And there's a couple of nights I forgot to put it on the charger,
and I got it, and it was like 10% less.
That's nice, too.
And that's with radios on and stuff. I'm feeling really good about it,
but Graphene OS has had some challenges recently, And I think that's Brent's
holiday leftovers for us.
Oh, yeah. Not the nice news maybe you want to hear.

(31:56):
But this week, Graphene OS basically withdrew from France, like the entire country.
They were hosting some things over at OVH.
But French law enforcements basically continue to target encrypted communications in the country.
And the first time the authorities have directly threatened an open source project.

(32:20):
So this is kind of big news for, I think, open source in general,
if it has to do with encryption protocols,
which previously they have basically targeted businesses who are doing encrypted
communications and targeting criminals specifically.
But this is just an open source project generally. So the French authorities

(32:41):
have sent an internal message to police forces labeling all Google Pixel phones
with Graphene OS as inherently suspicious.
Oh, what?
Not what you want to see.
I've got to take my iPhone to France now.
Wait a minute. You have an iPhone?
No.
I'll have to borrow yours.
I was going to borrow yours.

(33:04):
I'm sure I've got a couple.
Yeah.
So this week, French media outlet La Parisienne published articles characterizing
graphene OS as a tool enabling criminal activity.
And that kind of kicked off all of this suspicion and sort of looking into the
project a little closer.
Um so french cybercrime
prosecutor johanna bros stated that

(33:27):
authorities would basically pursue legal action against platforms of
criminal organization ties if they refuse cooperation
that was the quote yeah and
this what stands out here for me is that refuse cooperation
i think they're trying to
get information on criminal and organizations that are
using some of these platforms and considering

(33:50):
you know graphene os has a pretty
strong stand on not doing that um there's
suspicion that this is basically an ask for a backdoor uh which makes you wonder
which other encrypted services that are way more popular than graphene os actually
said yes because uh if they're going after a little project like this then um

(34:13):
i don't know you got to start to question things I.
Got bits and pieces from the project it sounded like they also the government
might have worked in coordination with some friendly media over there.
To write.
Some bad headlines about thieves using graphene OS kind of at just the right time,
or criminals I don't know about thieves but criminals um kind of coordinated

(34:34):
there and so they commented a little bit on that and how how just really they
disappointed they were in the media coverage,
Just take a moment to appreciate they had to migrate all of their infrastructure on OVH quickly.
Yeah, that sucks. That's no one's idea.
You know it's serious if you're...
And it takes away from more work just on the actual project task.
That's just the thing, right? Is you know it's serious if they had to hit pause

(34:56):
on the project work to do this migration.
It looks like most of their communication, so Macedon, Discourse,
and Matrix servers are moved to Toronto.
So over here in Canada. So good to know that my old dear country is a little trusted.
But not French Canada, I notice.
Yeah, not the French part of Canada.
It's near French Canada. Close, but not too close.

(35:17):
So maybe not a bad time to consider like a little extra donation to giraffe.
That is.
If you're a partial.
A great point. They also moved a couple other things. Website infrastructure is now in Germany.
DNS services, it looks like they've migrated to Vulture and by VM.
And it looks here like cryptographic credentials. They're rotating it based
on just a security progression.

(35:39):
So some interesting maybe changes in how they run some of the infrastructure
as well to avoid this kind of thing in the future.
They did confirm that there were no credentials from user data or critical security
infrastructure that was stored in France.
So most of the core security features are basically unaffected.
Thank goodness, really.

(35:59):
Yeah, it sounds like an abundance of caution on some of this stuff,
but I mean, that's sort of the game.
Which is what you'd expect from the project, yeah. And we're grateful for it.
Yeah, very much so. So it is interesting to see them have to kind of implement
an action plan here to see what they have to do in the face of some pressure.
And I think we'd probably all three agree. It seems like they're making the
right moves, hard moves, but the right moves here.
Yeah, this got me thinking of a couple of topics.

(36:22):
One is, you know, if you remember Telegram founder Pavel Durov,
he was arrested in France as well. Was that a couple of years ago, 2024?
So that was maybe.
That's still ongoing.
Yeah, it was maybe a hint of what was going to come.
And I'm not up on that situation, but I remember that feeling like a red flag.

(36:44):
And okay, that's Telegram, but now we've got a huge red flag for open source projects as well.
It also seems like chat control in Europe is moving forward in a way that is
following these kind of themes.
So I know we're talking about France currently, but there are a bunch of other
countries who are trying to push these kind of eyes into encrypted communications

(37:08):
a little bit more. So it makes me a little...
Somber thinking about some of these freedoms especially in a place that is known
for having a little bit more encouragement towards freedoms and freedom of choice
and all that to be pushing in this direction doesn't make you boy sad because
uh geez it feels like graphene has had many,

(37:31):
different types of challenges in the last few months we see this for sure and
also you know of the changes to the Android open source releases for them.
So they got both technical challenges and some, you know, governmental social challenges here too.
Indeed. I think it might be open source that has the line of defense on these

(37:55):
backdoor legislations.
I don't see how you effectively mandate it into free software that's made all
around the world. and developers that get coerced.
I mean, this isn't legal advice, but you have to wonder if some of them wouldn't
consider a public resignation,
and then get a VPN that just puts them in a different country and join the product

(38:17):
under a new synonym or a new fake identity and, you know, call themselves America
Joe or something and, you know.
I think that's taken already.
Bob the Builder, yeah. But you know what I, you know, There's really no way
they can stop free software from being developed, and a lot of the people that
build these tools, especially these privacy tools and free software and open source,

(38:39):
are doing it from a path of advocacy and a source of passion,
and they're not as likely to be swayed by this stuff.
They'll just stop, and then over time, because they're compelled,
they'll find a new way to contribute.
And we have the power of cloning and forking and often, luckily,
sizable and diverse communities all over the world and from different communities

(39:01):
with different local laws or rules on the ground and expectations and cultures,
which can be a benefit in times like this.
I think there will be challenges for some developers. I mean,
there's going to be some developers that really feel the pressure and the heat if this stuff proceeds.
And I think that is going to be a challenging time for open source.
But I think ultimately free software and open source are able to respond to

(39:21):
this threat in a way that commercial software simply is unable to.
Their legal structure as a business is going to force them to comply.
Yeah, it's a very different thing if they come knocking on your door and you
have a legal entity that makes it very easy for them to demand compliance.
And Graphene OS is trying to hold that line right here. We see it happening in real time.
And I'm really grateful for the hard work they're putting in to make that happen.

(39:42):
And I've made this point before on the show, but the people that know about
these tools and know about free software versus people that just grab whatever
commercial app their friends link them,
There's going to be a big delta between the people that have privacy and the people that don't.
Yeah, two different worlds.
But I was kind of happy to see that the speculation consensus is coming to a

(40:02):
perhaps hardware vendor for
GrapheneOS's new project. So they're looking for devices beyond pixels.
They have reportedly been working with a hardware vendor, a quote unquote major
hardware vendor, that would be updating their hardware to meet the security
requirements of the GrapheneOS project. including like the secure enclave type stuff.

(40:22):
And there's been a lot of speculation. OnePlus was thrown out there,
but all of them have kind of been knocked down by various members of the project
except for my original dream.
And I thought this was impossible.
But the community consensus, if there was a poly market for this,

(40:43):
Motorola would be in the win right now.
Oh.
Motorola.
That would be great.
I would love a Motorola phone again. I used to love my Motorola devices.
And it's because of all the requirements. It's kind of everything from timeline
to price to the fact that they also said the vendor makes a tablet that's already in the market.
Just all of these different kind of things that line up with pointing at Motorola.

(41:06):
And the takeaway being that potentially there could be a Graphene OS device,
a dedicated hardware made Motorola device that you buy that comes with Graphene
OS on it or you flash with Graphene OS on it, whatever it might be.
Oh boy I would love to see that Motorola makes some great phones.
Aren't you saying Chris was right? I feel like you're kind of rubbing that in our face here again.

(41:28):
No, no, no, because this is just speculation. You don't know.
Ah, so the jingle must wait.
I'd be curious. So we know it's not OnePlus. We've eliminated the Fairphone.
I thought there was a third phone we eliminated from the lineup,
too, recently in the members' feed, but I can't remember what it was.
I think it was Samsung devices.

(41:50):
Yeah, we ruled those out. I mean
it could be and I'd be curious if listeners you have a wish cast of who the
hardware vendor would be that you can either buy or easily flash Graphene OS
on if you could get an OEM phone something you could buy yourself or recommend
to friends and family too because oh boy wouldn't that be a game changer that
would be you could just tell easy answer yes,

(42:12):
so who would be who would be your hardware vendor of choice.
I feel like.
Jeff says.
Sony Sony he's been saying that for years right Jeff.
Maybe boost in and tell us who you'd
like to see as a hardware vendor for GrapheneOS. I'm saying Motorola.
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Well, I'd like to continue on the theme of sort of a bumpy year for the colonel,

(45:30):
because I feel like there's a lot more than what you've been talking about so
far in this episode. What do you got here, Chris?
I guess it kind of has been a bit of a grab bag year, right?
Because we've gotten a lot of nice releases, a couple of bangers,
and there's some in the works right now.
But I was reviewing the members version of the show to look for stories that

(45:50):
we should probably catch the main show up on. because a lot of times we'll cover
a story to see before we really know if it's fully developed.
We'll start tracking it in the bootleg version of the show for the members.
And then when it kind of develops, we'll bring it into the show.
But we just really haven't had a time to catch up on this stuff.
So I want to go back in time a piece to episode 590, gentlemen.

(46:15):
And this is where we started seeing potentially some issues with BcacheFS in the kernel.
And this is actually the first flare-up Before where we're at now,
there was a code of conduct situation because the S-word was used.
All right. Well, while we got spicy Wes, it looks like that Kent Overstreet,

(46:35):
the lead developer of BcacheFS, is facing repercussions for violating the Linux
kernel's code of conduct, as determined by the Code of Conduct Committee.
And committees reviewed some communications that involved Kent and another individual.
And as a result, their determination is that they're rejecting his poll requests
for BcacheFS for the Linux 6.13 development cycle.

(46:56):
I think really, right, it's any. He just can't be part of 6.13, basically. Yeah.
The decision does not remove BcacheFS from the mainline kernel or preclude future
submissions, but leaves the acceptance of his work for 6.14 and beyond uncertain for now.
Overstreet acknowledged the issue and issued a partial apology for the incident.
I don't know about partial. so I think it's a dispute of the apology was done

(47:17):
in private and the COC wants the apology done in public well and I think there's also Kent is,
It seems like he's intentionally not doing so because he'd like to raise,
make it into a larger conversation.
And that ultimately was resolved and his patches were resumed being accepted to the Linux kernel.
And then while we were, I think, in Austin, we were, I think we were in Texas.

(47:40):
So we might sound a little different.
Yeah, most of the time major stuff goes down while we're on the road.
Yeah, actually, it's true. I was looking at the clips. So we're in the,
so this is to kind of set the context.
This is the pre-show before we're going to actually record the main show from
Austin. And we're kind of just finding the news out as we're setting up.
Okay, Wes, this is the story I think that I've been the most disappointed to

(48:02):
see while we've been on the road.
And I know you've been following what's going on with BcacheFS.
Last time we talked about BcacheFS, there was a back and forth between Linus
and Kent because Kent was trying to add what you could consider to be a new
feature during what should only be a bug fix merge window.
There was a back and forth and an argument between Linus and Kent that just
kind of ended and really went nowhere after that.

(48:25):
And then we have a new story where it seemed positive at first because it seemed
Linus was pulling in all of the patches, including that new disaster recovery
tool, the Journal Rewind, into the 6.16 branch.
But it sounds like maybe we have bad news, maybe as bad as it gets,
actually, that Linus might not include bcashfs at all in Linux 6.17.

(48:50):
So what are we missing? What's going on here?
Nothing's final yet. We really don't know. In some sense, there's not much of
a story beyond watching the 6.16 develop.
There's been some even subsequent polls after this story came out.
But as a follow-up to the discussion around the Journal Rewind,
And there's some debate right there if you even want to call it a feature or

(49:13):
not, but around the journal Rewind feature.
And then I guess there's been going on some private maintainer mailing list
threads that we don't get to see, where Linus and Kent have been having more
discussions. And I think there's kind of, well, there's a lot going on as usual.
I think from Kent's perspective, part of it is like he sees a slightly different
definition of what counts as a feature or not for file systems in particular

(49:37):
in this case, because it was, it wasn't like adding some new thing the file system can do.
So it wasn't a feature in that sense. It was more of a feature in terms of like the strict code sense.
But this was entirely targeted around some like recovery stuff to try and get
users data back as quickly as possible by putting it into the RC instead of
waiting another three months to get it in the next kernel.

(49:59):
So it's sort of the letter of the law versus the spirit of the law.
Like Kent was trying to go by the spirit of the law. Hey, this thing's an experimental file system.
It's not a new feature of the file system but it's exposing that feature and
it's for users that are in trouble right now and linus is saying yes but it's
net new code you're not just fixing existing code this is net new code and that's
not allowed so it's law versus spirit in a sense.

(50:22):
Yes and you know can't was making the points which i think are true in and some
other maintainers have agreed on that you know it's not like that kind of,
concession or you know bend of the rules doesn't happen
i think maybe a big part of the problem here right is
that not sure kent appreciated the extent that
he was kind of still under review and being tested in

(50:43):
a sense to like how well can you play by the rules and i don't think maybe he
appreciates the extent that like there has not been enough trust gained between
the parties to be able to bend that rules right that happens like after the
trust happens and there just hasn't been enough of that i think.
And they're both kind of pretty frustrated, like, Kent is working really hard

(51:06):
and trying to support users and frustrated that, like, you know,
he's spending a ton of time not on feature development, but on, like,
bug fixes and talking with people online and in Reddit threads and,
you know, in IRC and all over the place trying to provide support and,
you know, finish all of the edge cases.
And so it's naturally frustrating when you feel opposed for that.
And of course, Linus wants to not have BcashFS be a constant thorn in his side

(51:30):
and distract him from maintaining the rest of the kernel.
And you can kind of argue, like, are there elements maybe of things we've observed
around maybe the larger maintainers not especially having a super strong focus
on file systems? I think you could maybe make some arguments around there.
And there's a debate maybe, which we've also had in the past,
around was this upstreamed too soon?

(51:51):
Also what's the definition of experimental so all of those things are being
drug up in this and it's not really clear exactly where things are land but it does sound like.
DKMS maybe some limited per distro kernel builds are possibilities in the future if,
takes a stint out of the main line. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(52:12):
And I really, really hate to hear that it might go out of the main line.
And I do want to underscore a point you quickly touched on.
But I'll wait. Brent, what is your first reaction? Well, I'm trying to think
of if this situation has ever happened before, like a project being included
in the kernel and then within a year being removed again.
I don't think that has occurred in the past.

(52:36):
Can you guys think of anything? I tried to research it and I can't think of
a single thing that has been added to the kernel with like, you know,
oh, we think this is ready enough to be added to the kernel and then kind of
backtracked from there.
So this would be a unique situation.
Yeah, you definitely see things deprecated maybe as they're no longer developed or supported.

(52:56):
It's like it's been in the kernel for 20 years or 10 years and we'll take it
out because no one's using it. Yeah.
Yeah. And you see it more often with drivers too when a driver's broken. you'll
see that and they won't include it in the next cycle for a bit while that
driver's getting fixed yeah no i don't
nothing comes to my mind no nothing like
a nothing like a software thing like this like a
wire guard or yeah you know and and

(53:19):
so here's the thing that wes touched on that i just i want to
focus on for a second because it is i think
everybody knows my my main my main issue
with all of this is the kernel developers are
are great people but they live in
their own world with their own uses and they don't appreciate how pathetically

(53:39):
behind and non-competitive linux is with its default file systems if you go
by the world of extended four which is the predominant file system that ships
with most linux distributions including the big red hat distributions.
It's a joke. Compared to NTFS or APFS, it's pathetic.

(54:00):
And Apple, in particular, has managed to lap us.
We've been talking about this for so long that they have now lapped us with this.
And they have better file systems on their internet phone than we do on our supercomputers.
And it's pathetic. And it makes Linux look old.
And it's an entire ginormous,

(54:25):
incredibly large sector of the tech industry is simply solving storage using
all kinds of hacked together solutions
because Linux doesn't solve this inherently at the platform level.
And so we have to throw tens and tens of thousands of dollars at stupid boxes

(54:45):
that run hacked together Linux kernels with patched up file systems to provide
support that Linux should be able to offer out of the box.
It's embarrassing and it's gone on way too long.
And if this was a product made by a company, whoever's in charge of that company
should have been fired over this because what pays the bills for Linux is the

(55:07):
server software. It's not you using it on your laptop. It's not your Steam Deck.
It's people running it in the servers. And this is an absolutely critical and
necessary feature for a server platform.
And the kernel developers do not get it. And ZFS ain't it, chief, because it is not GPL.

(55:27):
I don't care how great it is. I don't care how mature it is.
I don't care how wide the support is.
It cannot be baked into the kernel.
You have to have something that can be baked into the kernel or else the platform
technically does not have the feature.
And Bcache FS is it. Because we've all trashed the ButterFS brand,
so it ain't going to be ButterFS.

(55:49):
Bcache FS is it. I think that's something that's important to add here.
There's just that there is that backdrop and it doesn't always get commented
on, but I think Kent feels it, right?
Like, Kent has a sense of urgency. Some of that may be his own self-pressure
or pressure from users, like the kernel community is not obligated by that.
But you can appreciate how Kent wants to push really hard on not losing data

(56:12):
and helping users get data because we're living in a world where ButterFS just didn't get trusted.
And so I can see how Kent maybe feels a bit of a catch-22 in terms of like trying
to go whole hog on maintaining the reputation of his file system,
but then, you know, having the Linux community maybe push back and be like,
yeah, well, these people should be building their own kernels.

(56:37):
All right, back to present time. Of course, some time has passed,
and the sting of it being removed from the kernel has lessened,
I think, as we see sort of a workable solution get developed.
Yeah, I mean, development continues. The DKMS path so far is marching ahead.

(56:58):
We'll see. I mean, it's still somewhat early days, right? Like,
if 6.18 comes out today, then it'll be the first kernel that,
like, truly doesn't have Bcache at all.
And folks, you know, folks move slow on kernels and file systems.
So I think we'll see a bit before we know, see everything all switched over
to DKMS. But it's coming.

(57:18):
So this is sort of a make good because this entire thread has been a long,
ongoing story. So we just wanted to get you updated on it.
Brent, do you have any thoughts before we sort of do the final piece of the story?
I think it's more of a question. My question, just reliving that moment back
then, is considering it's been pulled from the colonel, what are the chances it might be back?

(57:44):
You know we we back then i think was thinking this is maybe a temporary pull
out till they figure things out and they'll try again but i'm not so sure anymore.
It's a good question i think only a few people could probably answer that and
linus might be one of them yeah.
I think i wouldn't set my timeline to anything shorter than a few years.
Yeah i don't know um but you're.
True i have no special insight.

(58:05):
So last bit of this thread from the bootleg version of the show this was the
moment we documented where the actual removal process finally happened.
So we go back to episode 635.
We also got an update on the status of bcachefs in the Linux kernel,

(58:26):
and I guess it's a necessary step.
Yeah, I mean, I think that's pretty much the consensus.
Linus wrote, bcachefs was marked externally maintained in 6.17,
but the code remained to make the transition smoother.
It's now a DKMS module, making the in-kernel code stale, so we're removing it
to avoid any version confusion.

(58:47):
And with that, 117,000 lines are removed from the kernel tree.
BcacheFS users should now use the DKMS kernel modules. Wow.
We did get some news on the DKMS kernel modules as well, and overall, it's pretty good news.
Yeah, Kent came out with an official announcement. As of Linux 17 and BcacheFS

(59:11):
tools, which are the user land side, version 1.31.5, BcacheFS is switching to
distributing as a DKMS module.
That means a normal make and make install of bcatchfs tools will also install
the kernel module sources, which on a system with a normally functioning DKMS
will then be built and available as like any other kernel module.
And of course, generally, this will

(59:32):
all be handled by our distribution or packaging or, you know, whatever.
And he went on to kind of go into, well, one, big thank you,
because a lot of folks have seemingly stepped up to help with this new packaging side of the project.
So that's great to see. That is, yeah. He also touches on he's going to be providing
for now a nightly release.
Well, he'll have two channels, I should say. One is called nightly and one is called release.

(59:53):
The nightly is as you expect, right? But the release channel,
it's the latest tagged release. It has code that has been deemed stable.
And Kent has been really good about communicating this, too.
So not only is there, you know, obviously community discussions about this,
but Kent is directly posting on his Patreon blog sort of just status updates
for everybody so they know where things are at.

(01:00:15):
He did mention also that they are looking eventually post-experimental status
being dropped to have a real stable release channel as well that'll lag behind
and just get sort of backboards. So that's coming. We're not there yet.
For those LTS type folks. Right now, Nixos and Arch get what's labeled first-tier support.
They're providing apt packages for Debian and Ubuntu, so you can get those added.

(01:00:36):
And they're also looking at getting BcacheFS tools back into Debian proper. So, TBD on that.
Fedora has long had a well-supported BcacheFS tools package,
and Kent shouts out a friend of our show, Neil Gampa, on that. So that's great.
Hey, Milo! The one caveat, though, now is since bcachefs isn't in the kernel,
bcachefs tools, the package itself can no longer be supplied as part of the

(01:00:58):
main Fedora distribution due to a policy in Fedora about how to treat kernel
modules, I guess. So instead, there's now a copper available for that.
But it sounds like otherwise it's sort of, you know, a long,
a well-tested package. And if you're on Nix or Arch, you're pretty much going
to get first-tier support. Yep.
That's what it, that's what they expect. Okay. Well, I mean,
works for us. Yeah, I think they're not sure yet on the status in OpenSUSE. That's ongoing.

(01:01:20):
And he has some more notes about Slackware and a few other distros in the post,
if you're curious for more deets there.
So DKMS lifestyle it is for us. That's right.
Okay, well, I thought, let's do one more clip from the bootleg that sort of
puts a cap on this. And that is Linus himself.

(01:01:41):
He was at an event and he was doing a Q&A with Dirk.
And they don't directly say the name, but some of these issues come up.
Like also this year, we've had a lot of Rust maintainers quit.
In fact, I believe now we're just down to one Rust for Linux project leader
as the sole maintainer for the code while there's a couple of Rust reviewers.

(01:02:01):
So the Rust folks have had a rough year. There's been this issue with Bcash FS.
And so Linus takes a moment to reflect on it. And this was just a couple of weeks ago.
Yeah, we had this year was a bit tumultuous. We had a lot of disagreements to
the point where parts of the kernel was made external just to avoid a lot of friction.

(01:02:28):
To be fair, that was not the first time it happened. But it's been a while.
We've had pieces of the kernel that were not being used or had serious enough
issues that we had to excise from the kernel. It's rare.
In 35 years, it's happened only a handful of times, so it's not an enjoyable experience.

(01:02:52):
But at the same time, I feel that we've been able to deal with it fairly well.
Any big project where literally thousands of people we have every single release
we have over a thousand people involved and that's,
every two months right you will have personal
disagreements you will have professional disagreements you

(01:03:14):
will have friction and and that's all part of life and and i think we're mostly
one big happy family i i think i would more describe it as a very mature group
of people who have figured out how to work with each other but yeah i'll go
with a happy family that's.
I think his way of saying you know it wasn't necessarily easy on him either

(01:03:35):
the whole process i don't This story isn't over yet, but that is our coverage
so far as it was in the bootleg that hadn't made it in the main show.
Do you have any follow-up thoughts or any?
Oh, I do want to underscore. It does seem like we were looking just now,
and the last update to the pcachefs tools repo was like 14 minutes ago.
And I have continued to see Kent out there engaging with the community, providing support.

(01:03:58):
I think things have just been a little quiet because we're in a stabilization period.
Kent is known for listening to the show on occasion. So if you have any production
systems out there or home lab systems or whatever you want to call it that are
running Bcache FS in the enterprise or on your own laptop, let us know.
Send us a contact or send us a boost.
And that might be useful in a future episode. So send those in.

(01:04:21):
Now, I was just looking at the chat room there.
And, you know, our buddy, Hybrid Sarcasm, big supporter of the show,
awesome member of our community, he says in here, Chris Rants are the only reason
one needs to become a member.
And so it is the Black Friday, Cyber Monday season.
And we do have a promo code, promo code bootleg, which takes,

(01:04:42):
I think, 15% off a membership if you would like to sign up.
And I will, just for you, hybrid, I will play a rant that actually ends with
a little bit of an update from this week.
So this is from LUP625's pre-show.

(01:05:04):
It all comes down to the damn enterprise distros. It's all because of the damn enterprise distros.
Because these things lock us into these 10-year windows of time where something
that crops up can be an issue in this world, right? These problems...
Are only problems for small windows of time if you regularly update your system.

(01:05:28):
And God forbid, maybe you even have an immutable box with the applications and
the data separately and you just continuously update the immutable base and
you update the applications as the business need require or compliance requires.
God forbid you go that route because if you did, then these problems are like
a problem for 15 minutes and then you just deploy the patch.

(01:05:49):
And all of these conversations should be keeping that in perspective.
Is these problems are problems for small periods of time and then are fixed.
And something that doesn't do something can do something later because we can
add functionality and features to the software and update it.
But if you're running some crazy esoteric business fork of Linux and your world

(01:06:11):
doesn't update, that doesn't mean the rest of us are living that.
And I think that has to be included in the conversation because it's looked at.
I think we all go through this default bias filter of, Well,
they're enterprise systems in the 10-year update cycle.
So, you know, if you have a problem and a vulnerability in this library,
then it could be an issue for tens of thousands of systems that don't update.
Yeah, well, they're doing it wrong.

(01:06:32):
And we shouldn't, I don't know why we bend over backwards to enable a way to
deliver Linux that is not compatible with the way Linux is developed.
And not only is it incompatible with the way Linux and features are developed
and distributed, but it's not great for security.
And it's the the issue holding us back is your application vendor compatibility
with the vendor requires that we run this on susa linux or it requires we use

(01:06:53):
rel you're the customer tell them every year we want this in a container we
want this in a vm whatever it takes,
and and then we can start the process of rolling out updates as required and
it doesn't have to be this big thing it can just be the way the system works.

(01:07:13):
It can just be the way that iOS and Android have solved this problem,
and we don't see it become a huge issue.
And like when I see what the trickle down culture of that is,
is this sort of I don't need to update my view.
I don't need to reassess my stance because, you know, it's probably valid for

(01:07:37):
a decade. And it inbreeds this laziness and this anti-intellectual approach
to understanding how the software is developed and how it works.
And then it creates this culture of bashing these things like IOU ring or butter
FS or Bcash FS or whatever the next thing is.
And it's based on these outdated or misinformed assumptions that really I think

(01:08:01):
stem from enterprise Linux.
And I felt like Red Hat must have been listening because this week they introduced
Project Hummingbird to accelerate cloud-native development and,
quote, zero CVE strategies.

(01:08:21):
So I think what this really is, is you could think of it as a version of their
UBI images, but instead of being based on RHEL, they're based on Fedora.
And I think maybe even like the Rawhide version of Fedora.
So these are coming in with like super hot patches.
They call it the zero CV status, meaning Red Hat hummingbird images are shipped

(01:08:42):
free of known vulnerabilities.
The functionality testing already completed, confirming that their images are
also genuinely useful and stable. Genuinely useful and stable, Wes.
Yeah, I think that's their way of saying we're testing these well.
But the phrasing is a bit odd. They do also seem to focus on them being very
application-specific, right?

(01:09:03):
So languages and runtimes, so .NET or containers ready to go for Java or running
Node apps, as well as stuff like MariaDB or Postgres, Nginx,
Caddy, that kind of thing.
So maybe more focused than some of the general UPI stuff.
Um, love to see it. Don't know what kind of adoption UBI is getting and what

(01:09:24):
kind of adoption Project Hummingbird will get.
Things like they include a lot of things companies like.
Um, so they have minimal releases and they have hardened versions.
They have a total bill of materials in there enabling, quote,
users to verify contents.
Yeah, that's what I was going to call out was, um, maybe trying to compete with
some things like Chain Guard or similar that are offering, like,
here's a tiny image. It does one thing.

(01:09:44):
And also here's the list of everything in it and exactly where we got it.
Yeah. You can just get it from us. You can just get it from us.
I do like that Fedora gets a proper call out in here, right?
So they say, again, I said this part, Project Hummingbird is built on the open
source development process originating from Fedora Linux components.
And then they go on to say, and they didn't need to save this part,
Fedora Linux serves as the upstream source for Red Hat Enterprise Linux development.

(01:10:07):
I just, every time we just sort of, you know, cement that a little bit more
into the RHEL culture, right? We just, Fedora is a vital part of RHEL.
We're putting it in this press release?
Yes. I like that. I like that a lot. probably not
something i'm going to use but it is interesting to
see when when i have a caricature in my mind of
these enterprise linux distros that i was ranting about in that clip from forever

(01:10:29):
ago it's these rel systems that haven't been upgraded in three releases because
of the difficulty of it which is what i spent a lot of my early years fixing
was systems that were three or more releases behind consistently.
I do think like putting on my dev hat if i were at a company that was in this kind of environment.
This would seem like a pretty nice offering that I'd be able to pull in from.

(01:10:54):
Look at them go. Look at them go. So you're missing some content if you're not
a member, and it is a great way to just put your support on autopilot.
There's also an ad-free version of the feed if the bootleg isn't for you.
Just use the promo code BOOTLEG when you check out. You'll get,
I think it's like 15% off the membership, I think a party or the Unplugged Core membership.
You can go to jupyter.party for the whole network and get all the bootleg feeds.

(01:11:17):
Or linuxunplugged.com slash membership for just this here show.
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(01:11:41):
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(01:12:23):
Well, this is how we take the power back. And it's incredible how well it works.
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(01:12:47):
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(01:13:10):
It's an insurance alternative.
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It's really the way it should work now. And of course, you'll join the crowd.
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unexpected medical events.
You'll be impressed of how well it works, too.
The system is betting out there that you're just going to keep buying the same overpriced insurance.

(01:13:34):
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Joincrowdhealth.com, promo code UNPLUG, take your power back,
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(01:14:21):
Unraid.net slash unplugged. You want to build your own dream server?
Well, unraid 7.2 makes it easier than ever.
Go unleash your hardware. Now with a fully responsive web GUI,
unraid now works beautifully across all your devices.
You can set there and build your favorite application stack from your couch if you want.

(01:14:42):
I think what you're really going to like too if you do the ZFS thing is it also
adds ZFS RAID Z expansion support.
That means you can now grow your ZFS pools with having to start over.
Man, that's great to see. And for those that maybe have a spare USB or external
hard drive, Unraid 7.2 introduces support for Extended 2, 3,
4, and NTFS as well as Extended Fat.

(01:15:05):
And so if you've got grandpa's photos like I do on an old NTFS drive somebody
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There's also a new API. It's officially here. It's real. It's beautiful.
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(01:15:28):
building dashboards, automations, or your own external apps.
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It's massive. I mean, 7.2's already had well over 25,000 downloads,
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You can get a free 30-day trial and support the show when you go to unray.net
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(01:15:51):
And 7.2 introduces the new Unraid API, and it's chef's kiss.
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Unraid.net slash unplugged.
Well, we've got a baller boost this week from someone dear to my heart, A.A. Ron.
A.A. Ron sent in 96,670 sats across three boosts.

(01:16:18):
Oh-ho!
Coming in, going to be doing a big lift for this episode. Thank you, Aaron.
Here with the baller for sure.
I heard a while back mention of Talos OS and it intrigued me.
I haven't had a chance to play with it until now.
Anita rose for a dev Kubernetes cluster, so I figured I would give it a try.

(01:16:41):
It's stupid easy how Talos makes it.
What was originally a week's worth of effort was done in like five minutes.
I'll be playing around more with it, but very happy so far. And as always,
love that show. Thanks for all you do.
Yeah, keep the experience reports coming. Talos does look quite good.
Of course, A.A. Run had some other ideas. Here's a little extra for the holidays.

(01:17:03):
I think a home lab special is a great idea, and I'll be submitting mine as soon as I can.
Maybe you can include an award for the longest running server.
Ooh, uptime, you mean? Like an uptime award? Also slash oldest kernel.
Is it, you know, you can do uptime, But you can also do like longest age of

(01:17:25):
initial, you know, deployment.
I wonder how long people, how many people out there could beat fake NAS,
which has got to be, we've been having, we've had it running for a decade,
but it was used when we bought it and had been in production for three or four years when we bought it.
So that server is probably 13 or 14 years old and amazingly power was cut to

(01:17:46):
it twice last night as the circuit blew and just picks right back up.
Why the circuit blow Chris is really strange that that would happen because.
I use the microwave. Oh, so yeah. Studios got some original weird wiring the studio itself.
We redid the wiring in this room out the rest of the place.

(01:18:06):
You don't want to know.
Yeah, you could you could you could build it fast. you can build it cheap or
you can build it right and they picked two so it is what it is.
Bob the nut comes in with 4 000 sats.
Hey it's bob hey bob i i guess i know i think it's bob i think i know him,
I think I know which Bob this is.

(01:18:28):
Bob says, cheers.
Well, cheers to you.
Thanks for the boost.
Thank you very much. Well, look who it is, guys. It's Chlorifora.
Chloriflora. Am I getting it? Chloriflora. Chloriflora. He comes in with a row of ducks.
2,222 sats. Looks like I really need to change my nickname.
It might have something to do with what just happened. I don't know.

(01:18:52):
Yeah, maybe. You know, I apologize. guys. Uh, it's a deficiency of mine.
I'm, I'm definitely, I'm going to nail it though. One of these days,
it's definitely, I'm going to get better about it. It's going to happen.
If you don't nail it, you're going to start collecting some adversaries.
Yeah. Or adversaries.
Yeah. Something like that.
Monty comes in with 4,444 sets.

(01:19:15):
Yeah, double ducks. Gadzooks! I run a very similar switch for external access
to what Chris just set up.
Ah!
Mine skips the ngrok and incorporates something I picked up from you guys,
which is tunneling a reverse proxy over a mesh network.
I have a VPS that runs Caddy, and it proxies any service I want publicly available over tailscale.
At the very bottom of the Caddy file, I import. Looks like he's got an Etsy

(01:19:38):
Caddy secure and then a .caddy folder.
Nice. In that secure subdue, I have files such as secureservices.caddy.disabled.
Okay.
Then in Home Assistant, I have a switch that triggers the shell command to rename
that file to secureservices.caddy.
Yeah.
Flip the switch off, and it names it back to disabled.
That's a clever way to do it. There's so many ways to do that.

(01:20:01):
And then Monty continues with a plus one to config confessions round three.
I really like hearing about unique ways people approach solving problems through declarative configs.
Well, thank you, Monty. And I love hearing your setup there.
That's a great way to do it.
And yeah, if you've got the VPS and you got a little NGINX foo under your belt, 10-minute job.

(01:20:22):
Just get it on your mesh network and go to town. I mean, in a way,
Jelly Swarm is doing some of that for me.
Only on top of it, it's layering over that interface to combine the Jellyfin
servers and do the user ID mapping and have the UI.
So it's doing a bit more than just the NGINX bit.
Thank you, sir. Appreciate it. Gene Bean comes in with 8,922 SATs.

(01:20:47):
Chris, it's time to get on the home manager train. Whoop, whoop.
Oh, boy. You know, I feel like there is.
Gene Bean coming in with the truth.
Oh, man. I feel like there's just no stopping this. I can feel the home manager train.
He says, it is a simple way to do so many of the things that you try to do,

(01:21:10):
and it enables a lot of, like, nixing-type stuff on Ubuntu and the like,
you know, like your studio machines.
Also, plus one for config confessions part three. I'm catching up on episodes
after falling behind and totally missed round two.
If it's practical for round three, give us a month notice along with concrete
deadlines so we can help staving off procrastination.

(01:21:32):
These are some quality tips.
Well, Gene, this is why we're giving you a heads up about the Home Lab Challenge,
right? We're trying to give you a heads up, but there's only so much time for the holidays.
But we could, like maybe set a date that's a few months out.
For the next one. This round's been great, he says.
He also wants to know whatever became a Steam OS getting released as a general distro.

(01:21:53):
Yeah, what did become of that?
Their answer when you ask Valve now is, well, we've done a lot of work to make
it work on many AMD devices, so give it a shot.
Okay.
Thanks.
Yeah, okay. Yeah. Also, plus one listener Alex's comment about the ATL being
ripe for a live show. ATL?
Atlanta.

(01:22:14):
Oh yeah all right i like that i like that a lot.
Soham g comes in with two thousand cents,
okay about git my semi-hot take
is that git is poorly designed and even in computer science very few people
actually use it efficiently because of this teaching people git is a fool's

(01:22:35):
errand whoa i use fossil for my nix configs and mirror them to github see the
talk by fossil and and sequel-like creator Richard Hipp on YouTube for more.
Huh.
Coming in hot. What do you think? Is it a waste of time? I can't agree.
I don't know if I'll go that strong, but I do think wanting improvement is good,

(01:22:55):
and Fossil and some other stuff like the jujitsu tool.
There are some promising better tools than Gets. So I don't think it's,
you know, it may be a local optimum. It's definitely not a global optimum.
All right, we'll take that.
Well, hybrid sarcasm boosted in 15,000 sets.

(01:23:17):
Hybrid says, pew, pew, boosting to remind everyone that the Boosties are right around the corner.
Get your baller boosts in to boost your chances of winning a free year of the
Jupiter Party membership.
Yeah, Hybrid is going to gift the Jupiter Party membership to somebody who is our Boosties winner.
And if you already have one, then he can give it to somebody else or you can as well.

(01:23:40):
That's going to be great. And we really appreciate that. Hybrid,
you're a good guy. You know what? He's a good guy, right?
Yeah, a real good guy.
Real good guy.
Real good guy.
Real good guy. Morris comes in with 5,000 sats.
Jelly Swarm solves a problem I didn't know I had. Yeah, I agree, right? It was so great.

(01:24:03):
Have some sats? Is that what he says there? What's he saying there,
Wes? You look like you have an idea.
No, a signal? Sigma?
Sigma sats.
Yeah.
I'm going to go with that. Thank you, Morris. Yeah, Jelly Swarm,
Wes came in clutch on that one. And I mean, I'm glad I had a chance to build
my whole tunnel thing because I can use it for a couple of other things.
But boy, oh boy, I was off on the wrong track on that one.

(01:24:25):
Well, I'm just so excited to see more and more stuff being built on Jellyfin
like that. It's been calling out kind of for various tools like that.
The last year has been really good for things building around Jellyfin.
And I think it's going to be a matter of time before our friends in our circle
that still have Plex will probably give Jellyfin another look.
Because there's just so many great apps around it. Thank you everybody who supported

(01:24:47):
this episode with a boost.
It's a value for value production, and that means if you get some value out
of the show, we'd really like it if you set it back our way.
There are several ways to do it, and one of them is a boost.
And we had 23 of you stream sats as you listened.
You collectively stacked for us 33,724 sats. Not our strongest showing ever,
but, you know, it's there. It's there, and we appreciate it.
So you can say that about it. And then, of course, when it comes to our total

(01:25:09):
this week, we stacked 172,522 sats.
Thank you everyone who boosted in. Fountain.fm is making some big leaps forward
on the interface and some of the features.
So if you haven't checked it out for a while, now's a great time and it makes
it easier to boost than ever.
There is a completely self-hosted route with things like AlbiHub and there's
a plethora of great podcast apps over at newpodcastapps.com. Head on over there.

(01:25:32):
See if one fits your needs. Support the show with a boost.
And, of course, a big thank you to our members who put their support on Autopilot.
Shows like this, they're not going to last long term without audience support,
right? It's a niche audience that we make the podcast for. And that is you.

(01:25:53):
Thank you for your support.
Before we get out of here we're going to leave you with a couple of picks well
a pick with a couple of links and uh wes you're speaking to my heart with an

(01:26:18):
old school emulator this week And I honestly haven't had a lot of experience,
not good experience at least, with the Nintendo 64 emulators.
So you're bringing to the class today Gopher 64. Tell me about it.
Yeah, I was chatting with my bro. We both love this era of gaming as well.
And I guess he was trying out a few different emulators, had a problem with

(01:26:41):
some of them, and had found Simple 64, which was supposed to be a very widely compatible emulator.
So i took a look at that just wanted to go check
out if it was open source could you could i find it and i noticed it was archived
and at point and it said go check out go for 64 i don't know about simple 64
but go for 64 when i went and searched it immediately popped up with linux support

(01:27:03):
so i was super pleased to see that and now then i looked a little closer and,
it's also a gpl rust app.
Oh that's great.
V3 yeah.
So it's GPL3 built in Rust, but also very cool for this type of thing is it
has a net play server as well.
Yeah, it seems like it's pretty widely compatible so far. It's targeting like

(01:27:25):
not crazy high specs needed to be able to play.
They've got a Docker composer, really Podman, really. Look at the Podman. It's Podman.
Podman, you pull this container and you get a little discoverable LAN server
for running different games on.
Yeah, and then it is also published as a flat pack. So pretty easy to get started and play.
I was able to test out just playing a few ROMs and worked no problem.

(01:27:49):
That's great. Now, this is, I think, is a nice in-between because what I'm using,
and I've talked about it before on the show, is ROMM. ROMM?
Yes.
That's a web app that has a bunch of different emulators baked in,
but they're not top-grade emulators.
Like the N64 one's not great.
The Super Nintendo one's fine, so I'm happy about that. so this is really nice

(01:28:10):
especially with that netplay capability it's.
Got xbox style controllers with a like a default mapping for those so those
should work pretty much out of the box.
Go for 64 i'd like also if anybody out there has any of their favorite favorite
uh classic game emulators let me know i'm always i was just this weekend i was
playing with my little rx whatever it is handheld game device yes i just every

(01:28:33):
now that i'm in a mood for a classic game and.
You know boost in what which ROM's your plan.
Of course. Now, Wes, before we go, we got some pro tips for you.
And it's actually, it's great to see more and more apps are supporting this now.
Yeah, the magic of the podcast namespace from Podcasting 2.0.
Yeah, we got transcripts and cloud chapters.

(01:28:55):
And it's, I think, Podcast, what is it, Pocket Casts, and Apple Podcasts have
just recently added that stuff. Of course, all the podcasting 2.0 apps as well.
Well, of course, yeah, they are ahead of the game. But yeah, you know.
It's spreading.
More and more of your regular old podcasting clients are implementing some,
maybe not all, maybe not as much as one, but some.
And like, you know, once you have the namespace in your RSS feed,

(01:29:19):
it makes it even easier to start using more of those features.
And when you switch to a new app or when your app, your legacy app gets these
features, we have been putting transcripts and chapters in since episode 600.
So you're going to get a massive back catalog now of weeks and weeks of this
stuff, which is going to be fun, I think, when we find different ways to use it.
So that's available to you. And then probably the biggest resource is going to be our website.

(01:29:42):
We'll have links to everything we talked about, the projects we mentioned.
All of that stuff is linked over at linuxunplugged.com slash 643.
That's where you're also going to find our contact page, our membership stuff, all of that.
And of course, there's only a couple of more live streams left this year.
So we would love to have you join us live. We do it on a Sunday.

(01:30:06):
We call it a Tuesday on a Sunday. It's our special thing. We start at 10 a.m.
Pacific, 1 p.m. Eastern over at jblive.tv.
Or you can put it in your audio streamer of choice at jblive.fm.
We have a mumber room that's going during all of that. Our LUP plug gets together
before and after the show and hangs out with us.
You can also join that mumble room yourself. It's available to anyone.
And all the resources you might want over at linuxunplugged.com.

(01:30:30):
Thank you so much for joining us on this week's episode of Your Unplugged Program.
And we will see you right back here next Tuesday, as in Sunday.
Eh, eh, eh, eh, eh.

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