Angeles National Forest Cold Cases

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
Thousands of people have mysteriously vanished in America's wilderness. Join
us as we dive into the deep end of the
unexplainable and try to piece together what happened. You are
listening to Locations Unknown. What's up, everybody, and welcome back

(00:57):
to another episode of Locations un I'm your co host
Joe erod Oen with me as always as a guy
who once got an A plus on an essay on
courage in which he turned in a single sheet of
paper with his name on it. Mike vander Bogart.

Speaker 2 (01:10):
Oh, thank you, Joe, and thank you once again to
all of our amazing listeners for tuning in. Just a
few updates here before we get go in. So first
I would like to thank our new Patreon followers, So
Michelle Fox, Brandy Shills, Kristin Westcott, Bonnie Broadway, Grace Johnson,
and Misty Koontz Kurtz.

Speaker 1 (01:30):
Sorry, thank you very much. Thank you all of you
for tuning in and signing up. Thank you so much
for supporting the show.

Speaker 2 (01:36):
If you want to call or text the show, you
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If you want to support our show, you can go
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(01:58):
and We're else speaker all the places, all the places
ever where you get your podcasts. Yes, Stars, any updates
from you, Joe?

Speaker 1 (02:06):
No? All right, everybody, let's gear up and get out
to explore. Locations Unknown. Spanning over seven hundred thousand acres,

(02:30):
just outside Los Angeles, is a rugged wilderness of jagged peaks,
deep canyons, and winding trails that lure hikers, climbers, and
adventures year round. Known for its sweeping views of the
San Gabriel Mountains and its proximity to one of America's
largest cities, this forest is both breathtaking and unforgiving. While
most visitors return with photos and memories, others disappear without

(02:54):
a trace. Join us this week for another installment of
National Forest Cold Cases as we explore the mysteries hidden
within Angelus National Forest. So we have several cases, but

(03:21):
we're going to be covering the location profile from the
perspective of the most recent disappearance for this one. As
we said, the location is Angelus National Forest, and we
are going to be focusing our information on the sublocation
on Angels Crest Highway, the six thousand foot gate by
the Mount Waterman trailhead. This is in California. It was

(03:43):
established in nineteen oh eight and sees about three point
three million visitors per year. So here's some interesting facts.
It has the oldest roots in California forest history. Created
as the San Gabriel Forest Reserve in eighteen ninety two,
the first federal forest reserve in California, later renamed Angelis
National Force in nineteen oh eight. It is home to

(04:05):
a huge national monument, so most of the San Gabriel
Mountains National Monument sits inside anf In May of twenty
twenty four, the monument was expanded by one hundred and
five nine hundred nineteen acres, bringing it to four hundred
and fifty two thousand plus acres. Pretty big, pretty big,
pretty big. It has world changing astronomy happening there at

(04:28):
the Mount Wilson Observatory. The one hundred inch Hooker telescope
produced discoveries that proved galaxies lie beyond the milky way
and supported the discovery that the universe is expanding. So
anytime you've heard that, that's come right out of the
Mount Wilson Observatory. Kind of a big deal. Kind of
a big deal. What do we do with that information?

(04:48):
Who knows? But we know it. We know it, but
we know it. It is a living laboratory. Did you
know that, Mike I did not. The San Sandemas Experimental Forest,
established in nineteen thirty three, lies within an F in
the only experimental force in southern California set up to
study water and fire in semi arid mountains. Access for millions.

(05:09):
ANF provides one are open space to eighteen million residents
of the Greater La Area, one of the most visited
and urban adjacent forests in the United States. And if
you haven't known about this area of California, there's a
lot of fires there. Yes. In nine the two thousand
and nine Station fire burned one hundred and sixty thousand,

(05:30):
five hundred and fifty seven acres, or twenty five percent
of the forest, one of La County's biggest modern fires.
The twenty twenty Bobcat Fire triggered years long closures like
shanty Flat which reopened in October of twenty twenty four.
Shantry Shantry. Sorry, a lot of people from la are
going to be mad while eating their tacos. Some about

(05:54):
the climate, The overall pattern is Mediterranean. It is dry,
warm summers, cool, cold wet winters, with snow common above
six thousand feet in the winter. Annual precipitation on the
south slopes at similar elevations runs on the order of
thirty five inches per year. That is, in the nearby
Mount Wilson, which is five seven hundred feet and averages

(06:14):
thirty four point seven inches per year, with most of
it falling between November and March. What June typically looks
like up there at Crystal Lake, which is at fifty
five hundred feet.

Speaker 2 (06:25):
Oh, and I'll just preface, go ahead, the terrain and
climate is kind of geared towards the area where our
most recent disappearance happened. So because it's such a big place.
It's such a big place that person went missing in June,
so perfect there you go.

Speaker 1 (06:40):
So just southeast of Mount Watermen, June averages are roughly
mid seventies during the day, upper midir or upper thirties
to low forties at night. With zero point five inches
of monthly precipitation on average, so it's pretty dry. You
expect big day night swings and strong winter, which is
November to April. You can expect cold, wet storms, including

(07:01):
atmospheric river events delivering most of the annual precipitation, with
frequent snow above six thousand feet and episodic heavy accumulations
during strong storms. The shoulder seasons wind and convective storms,
so Santa Ana wind episodes. Hot very dry down slope
winds are most common September through May, peaking in late

(07:24):
fall through winter. They lower humidity and can produce ridge
top gusts. You gotta be careful when you're up on
the top of the ridge. Yes, in late summer, which
is July to September, North American monsoon surges can occasionally
push moisture and thunderstorms into the San Gabriel Mountains, lightning,
brief downpours, localized flash fooding. They're not daily, but they

(07:45):
do happen. So a little bit about the terrain. The
area sits inside Angels National Forests and within the San
Gabriel Mountains National Monument, with designated wilderness beginning just off
the Highway west of Watermen, meaning steep, minimally improved country.
Immediately beyond the road corridor there are high, rugged sand
Gabriel mountains with sharp peaks and knife edge ridges, deeply

(08:07):
cut by narrow bedrock canyons, little in the way of
flat benches on ridges and valley bottoms. Roadside crests are
around six thousand feet, and Scenic Road two rises quickly
above Mount Watermen. Adjacent canyons drop steeply several hundred two
thousand plus feet, creating short, committing descents. If you leave
the trail, it's a nice way of saying that you

(08:29):
will fall. Yes for a very long time. Yes, stay
on trail. Trail and footing the Waterman trails are steep
but well built in places. Once off trail, slopes become loose,
brushy and cliff broken, easy to get cliffed out above
drainages or pulled into side gullies. Nearby. Route descriptions note
switchbacks through Conifer forest quickly giving way to open chaparral

(08:50):
or oak Manzanita yucca and scene at this as aspect
in elevations in Chaparral. Maybe chaperon. I'm sure, I'm sure
it is. I don't know, we could both be on.
I don't know. They can me mad about that one too.
Vegetation zones, the upper montane conifers, Jeffrey pine, incense, cedar,

(09:12):
big cone, Douglas firs, on cooler aspects in the higher slopes,
or own watermen, chaparol belts, lower warmer. I'm just gonna
it's a chaparral roans go with it. The Pink Pony Club,
chapaol Ron Danse scratchy and not. I made up for it.
They're gonna be happy again. There you go. Dnse scratchy
brush that obscures ledges and gullies, can funnel travelers into

(09:34):
canyon BOTTOMSI sidebar here.

Speaker 2 (09:36):
Yes, we had a really funny comment I believe on Spotify.

Speaker 1 (09:40):
Oh I need to start responding. I just forget I
can respond to this.

Speaker 2 (09:43):
They were talking about how they've heard your hypothermia story
now about fifteen times.

Speaker 1 (09:49):
It was hilarious. Yeah, that means they actually avid listeners.
What they don't understand is we get new listeners all
the time. Yeah, so most people don't hear it. Joe,
why don't you tell us about that story? So I'm
not gonna naim. I'm going to reference all fifteen episodes. So,
water side canyons like devils often carry perennial or seasonal

(10:10):
flows with plunge pools and polished bed rock. Progress can
be slow with pour offs and falls that require backtracking
or technical skills. And there are post fire realities. Recent
fires in the San Gabriels, including nearby scars, leave unstable soils,
down timber, and regrowth of poodle dog bush, a plant
that causes severe dermatitis and flourishes in burn areas, completely

(10:33):
complicating off trail travel and SAR visibility. What a weird plant.
That is a weird plant, lil dog. Yeah, it's like
the whole forest is burn now, I'm here, Yeah, don't
touch me. Types of dangers present in the park. Besides
that one plant, there's practical hazard rundown for mount watermen
and angels, crust areas where monicarezo was last seen. That's

(10:55):
the area. That's the one that's the most recent one, right. Yeah.
Steep and complex, so slips falls and getting cliffed out.
Knife edge ridges drop quickly into tight canyons with pour
offs and small waterfalls. Off trail travel can force committing
down climbers or repels and make aerial visibility poor. Even
sign trails have steep or loose sections near watermen and

(11:17):
Devil's Canyon. Downstream terrain includes falls that only experienced canyon
ears should pass. Post fire vegetation. As we said before,
the poodle dog brush, you don't want to touch that.
It can cause severe poison oak like dermatitis from light
to contact, so you just brush up against it and
you're going to have a very bad time. It is
widespread in the sand gables after recent burns, and then

(11:38):
of course there's quickly changing weather and exposure. If to
watch out for wildlife, rattlesnakes are common, so you want
to watch your foot or hand placements, especially if you're climbing.
Black bears and mountain lions occur in the range. You
want to keep your distance, don't run, make yourself big,
and secure your food. Local agencies and USFS published specific
guidances in the area. And if that wasn't all bad,

(11:59):
there's navigation falls and remote remoteness, so social erase trails
after fires, blowdowns and rock fall can push hikers off
route into wrong drainage. Seasonal closures and road trail interruptions
on seeing road two are common, adding time fatigue and
root finding error, and last, but not least, water obstacles.
Canyon travel often involves slick bedrock, cold pools, and small

(12:23):
waterfall pour offs that block progress. Turning around can be
difficult once committed. So, Mike, you want to get into
our first profile. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (12:30):
So, the the first case of this episode is Michael
Patrick Flynn. Day to birth was April sixth of nineteen
fifty three. He went missing May one of twenty sixteen.
He was a male, age sixty three, height five foot four,
weight was about one thirty five two one hundred and
forty five pounds. He had brown, blonde hair, blue eyes.

(12:55):
Other notable features about him he had a distinctive chipped
front tooth. He was last seen in so black jacket.
His vehicle also was later found near one hundred and
seventy fifth Street and Pair Blossom Highway, and this was
consistent with desert side launch towards the San Gabriels, which

(13:16):
we'll discuss here further. We don't know a lot about
his personality or medical issues or hobby unfortunately, or experience
in the wilderness or in that location. A lot of
these cases are that we do in our cold case episodes.
There's less information to go on, but we still want
to cover these cases because they're still open.

Speaker 1 (13:36):
So this timeline for.

Speaker 2 (13:37):
This case starts on May one of twenty sixteen. This
would be the last known contact. So around nine am,
Flynn speaks with his family and says he's going to
go hiking in the San Gabriel Mountains for a few days.

Speaker 1 (13:51):
Family and investigators.

Speaker 2 (13:53):
Believe he likely headed to the Devil's Punch Bowl Recreation
area with the intention to go southwards Highway. Two possible
areas that he might have hiked would be the South
Fork Trail or Big Rock Creek. Now, around mid May
of twenty sixteen, he had failed to return and the
Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department the Palmdale Station Slash Homicide

(14:17):
Bureau was notified, and like I said, not shortly after that,
his vehicle was found abandoned near one hundred and seventy
fifth Street and Pair Blossom Highway, confirming that he departed
into the San Gabriel Mountains from the desert side. And
it's now late May of twenty sixteen, so authorities at

(14:40):
this point are publicly requesting help. They again suggest that
Flynn likely departed from the Devil's Punch Bowl recreation area.
He was heading south towards Highway two, and like I
said earlier, his potential routes included maybe the South Fork
Trail and Big Rock Creek corridor. So initial searches spanned

(15:01):
the areas between Right Wood and Dawson's Saddle, along Highway
to and extending north to the Devil's Punch Bowl site.
It's now mid twenty sixteen to early twenty seventeen, so
we don't have a lot of very finite dates like
we do in some of our cases, but we do
know that over this time, authorities had expanded the search

(15:23):
zone to include several areas around where he might have
gone missing, so Silver Macchison Trail, Brinkin Truck Trail along
the Pear Blossom Highway, the desert region between Pear Blossom
and Lake Los Angeles, Lovejoy Butte, and the mountainous areas
south of Juniper Hills. Sadly, despite extensive coverage of these areas,

(15:44):
no evidence are sight sightings were reported, and all leads
eventually stalled. It's now March twentieth of twenty seventeen, and
there was actually a renewed public appeal by authorities. So
nearly a year after Flynn's disappearance, Palmdale Station detectives issue
a detailed media appeal for public help, outlining all the

(16:04):
areas searched and reiterating known to details. So, sadly, from
twenty seventeen to the current times, Flynn remains missing and unsolved.
There's been no further updates or breakthroughs in the case,
and it continues to be active and unsolved, And sadly,
with all the fire activity in that area, there's always

(16:27):
a chance that any evidence of where he was might
have been burned up. It's unknown if they will ever
find his remains. There are some pretty obvious theories in
this one, so the most likely theory that authorities leaned
on during the search was an accidental fall or exposure
during a desert to crest hike. So the reason why

(16:51):
this one fits is he told his family he was
heading for a multi day hike in the San Gabriel Mountains.
He likely was starting at Devil's Punch Recreation area and
moving south towards Highway Too, with possible corridors in the
South Fork trail Big Rock Creek, and that line takes
you from high desert canyons to steep exposed mountain train

(17:12):
where you could easily slip or fall, or like Joe
mentioned earlier, you could get cliffed out, which can be fatal,
especially in the desert. Authority searched all these areas, but
still weren't able to find any evidence. Another pretty high
likelihood theory is getting lost or he went off route
and so come to the elements. It's pretty obvious the

(17:35):
way Joe described the terrain, it's very rugged as soon
as you're off trail, and very would be very easily
easy to slip and fall.

Speaker 1 (17:44):
Yeah, I'm looking in the Devil's Punch Bowl in Juniper
Hills area. Yeah, I am sharing screen could it's just
very nothing desert. I mean there's he wasn't around that.
I'm assuming roads and houses and stuff. So he's out
hiking in here like it's just there's nothing. So if
you have a medical issue, if you run out of water,
like you're just in exposure.

Speaker 2 (18:04):
Yeah, and he went missing in May, so it's starting
to get hot out there.

Speaker 1 (18:10):
Yeah, it's a tough.

Speaker 2 (18:12):
It's tough terrain to hike in and if something happens,
you go off trail get lost. We really don't know
the kind of gear he had. We're assuming if he
was planning to do a multi day hike that he
had the proper gear, but we don't really know. Sadly,
this case remains unsolved, and those are the main theories.

Speaker 1 (18:33):
Getting lost.

Speaker 2 (18:34):
You know, he could have had a sudden medical emergency too.
He was hiking by himself.

Speaker 1 (18:39):
That's kind of what I was leaning towards. I don't
know what made me think that, just maybe his age. Yeah,
I don't know. Like I looked at his picture and
I was like, oh, I wonder if it was a
medical emergency. I have no evidence or anything to back
it up other than that's a thought that hit my
head for no reason. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (18:54):
I mean, hiking in altitude, in desert environments, in that heat,
it does put stress on your body. If you're an
older person, obviously more things can go wrong with that stress.
But we don't know because nothing was fond of him.
You would think that if someone was just going up
one of the trails and had a heart attack and
he healed over on the trail, someone would find their

(19:17):
remains pretty quickly. He could have been off trail and
in his attempt to try to get back, then had
a medical emergency. And as Joe described earlier, it's such
a rugged train that it's hard for searchers to look
in every nook and cranny. The most likely is probably
accidental fall or getting lost, maybe a medical emergency. Investigators
really ruled out foul play and voluntary disappearance were the

(19:41):
lowest theories discussed in this case. So you're leaning towards medical.

Speaker 1 (19:46):
I am for okay, no reason, no reason, no other
reason other than I just that's my hunch.

Speaker 2 (19:52):
I think it's a combination of he went off trail
and then fell, and he just they're not going to
find him. It's such a rugged, remote train that they
can't search everywhere. He fell in an area where there's
not a lot of hikers.

Speaker 1 (20:07):
They can only search the nooks, not the crannies.

Speaker 2 (20:09):
Yes, So moving on to case number two. So the
subject of our next case is Gary Robert Nutzel. He
was born in December seventh of nineteen forty four. He
went missing on October eleventh of twenty twenty four. He
was a male, age eighty. He was five foot nine

(20:30):
and one hundred and forty pounds. He had gray hair,
blue eyes. We don't really know clothing he was in,
but they investigators speculated based on conversations they had that
he likely carried a small backpack and possibly trekking polls.
His vehicle was found October twenty eighth, twenty twenty four,
at the Shantry Flat parking area, and we don't know

(20:54):
anything about his personality or medical history. He was a
very avid hiker and longtime outdoorsmen in the San Gabriel Mountains,
especially in this area, and some people said he had
over fifty plus years of hiking in this area and
was described as intimately familiar with the local train. So okay, yeah,

(21:17):
he's an old gentleman. He knew what he was doing,
though he you know, eighty years old. If you know
eighty year olds, I don't think most of them could
hike something like this.

Speaker 1 (21:25):
I don't know. Look at this guy, how I'm gonna
show the screen. He seems tough. I mean that looks
like a prison photo. Yeah it does. I'm not saying
he was I disparage him, but he looks like a
tough old gentleman. Yeah, Like he looks like the type
of guy that can he can hold his own out
while hiking.

Speaker 2 (21:39):
Yeah, and he's been doing it for fifty years.

Speaker 1 (21:42):
Oh yeah, so he's in shape.

Speaker 2 (21:43):
He's in shape, and he knows the area like the
back of his hand. Okay, So and yeah, he grew
up in the Sierra Madre Acadia area and he was
a frequent visitor to this area. So born and raised here,
very experienced, so predisappearance. I always like to understand why
these people were out doing this, and for these cases, unfortunately,

(22:07):
there's not a lot of information, so we don't have
an official reason for why he was out there that day.
Like I said, it was documented that he did many
frequent day hikes for decades in this area, so this
is completely not out.

Speaker 1 (22:24):
Of the ordinary for him.

Speaker 2 (22:25):
He just probably hikes multiple times a day, multiple times
a week in this area. So unfortunately he never shared
his itinerary. We don't really know where he could have
been going.

Speaker 1 (22:36):
And if he's been going all the time, I'm sure
he's going to different areas all the time. Yeah, he's
not going for one specific thing.

Speaker 2 (22:42):
And if you've been hiking for fifty years in the
same area, you probably get kind of complacent with like, oh,
I'm not going to tell someone every time I go
out here. Oh yeah, I've been doing it. I could
see that fifty years and I've been fine.

Speaker 1 (22:54):
There's something that's and just being honest. When you go
to national forest or forced area that real close to
a heavily populated area with a lot of traffic, yeah,
it feels less wild Yeah, so I would argue you
might feel less inclined to be like here's my tinerary. Yeah,
when we were just hiking with my daughter in the
Pacific Northwest, Like we went to a couple of big
parks to go see some waterfalls. Yeah, and it didn't

(23:15):
even occur to us like, oh, we're hiking. It felt
like a stroll through the park. Yeah. But then you
get deep in there and you're like, oh, this is
a really big forest, like you could still it's still wilderness.
There's still you could still have things happening, people still
have gotten lost there. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:28):
Absolutely little context about this case. The area that he
went hiking had just been reopened after the Bobcat fire
that Joe mentioned earlier, and the search and rescue team
notes that he might have been so familiar with the
area pre fire and it looked different. That could have
potentially led to navigation difficulties and maybe getting confused out

(23:53):
there because you've hiked the same area so many times
and now it's changed so much due to the fires.
That could have led to what happened to him. So
we don't know, but that was just speculation by the
search and rescue team. It is Thursday, October tenth of
twenty twenty four, This would be the date of last contact,
and we don't really we don't really know much about this.

(24:13):
This date comes from the California's Department of Justice missing
person entry on him that lists it as the tenth
of October, and they speculated them that Friday, October eleventh
of twenty twenty four was probably the day he went
hiking out there. So this is what the Sierra Madre

(24:34):
Search and Rescue team identified. They said October eleventh was
the day that he was likely hiking in the Shantry
Flat area. He was believed to be solo with a
small pack and possibly hiking polls. Like I said, now,
between Monday October fourteenth and Wednesday October sixteenth, search and
rescue personnel make a public plea, a plea for bystander photos,

(24:57):
so SMSR asked anyone who the area between October fourteenth
and sixteen to check their photos for possible incidental sightings
of Gary, but obviously nothing turned up. Monday October twenty
eighth of twenty twenty four, his vehicle is located and
this is when he was formally reported as missing. So

(25:19):
his car was found at the Shantry Flat parking area
and this triggered obviously the missing person's response and an
initial large scale search operation. So between Thursday or Tuesday
October twenty ninth and Thursday October thirty first of twenty
twenty four, SMSR announced ongoing search operations in the area

(25:40):
using ground teams, canines, drones. They also note the investigation
is refining the timeline of Gary's movements and the media
local media starts obviously picking up on it at this time.
By early November of twenty twenty four, the like we said,
it was newly reopened and the search and rescue teams
explained how the canyon looked radically different with altered trails,

(26:04):
debris tangles and brush loss that can turn slips into
longer falls. By this time they had several different search
teams in the area. They had horses, dogs, drones, they
had various tex tech deployed across trails, ridges and canyon bottoms.
On Tuesday, November fifth of twenty twenty four, the LASD

(26:25):
dive operations at Sturdivant Falls went in and they searched
pools above and below Sturdivant Falls and unfortunately didn't find
any sign of Gary. So Wednesday, November six to Thursday
November seventh, this is when broad media coverage kind of
started kicking in. So the sf Gate did a big

(26:48):
article on it, and they highlighted when he was missing
October eleventh. The car was found October twenty eighth. All
the stuff we talked about now the media is picking
up on it. By mid to late November of twenty
twenty five, there were continued field operations for search and rescues,
so posts from search and rescue partners indicated multiple operational
periods completed at least eight by this point, with continued

(27:12):
ground canine drone use on the canyon bottoms, ridges and
spur searches and community and hiking forms continued to track updates.
By the third week of November, Unfortunately, there were no
confirmed sightings or any clues found of Gary in the field.
So through December twenty twenty four and into twenty twenty five,

(27:34):
there's still been no evidence found of what happened to them.
A lot of people in the community are remaining active
and keeping up on the case. SMSR posts periodic updates
on the search efforts, and they have continued as resources allow.
But like I said, there's been no public confirmation of
any evidence recovered, and the California DOJ still considers this

(27:59):
an active person's case. A couple of main theories that
were bounced around in this case again accidental fall or exposure.
That's gonna be a theme in these cases. That's a
theme in most of our cases. If you really break
it down.

Speaker 1 (28:12):
That's true.

Speaker 2 (28:13):
He was a dedicated or decades long hiker of this area.
His car was found in the lot, and a large
multi day search focused on the sturdvent falls, Big Santa
Ana corridors, and the LASD dive teams even searched the
pools above and below start falls. So this is consistent
with concern for a fall into the water or a

(28:35):
canyon bottom. And like I had mentioned earlier, the area
had just reopened after a big fire and was radically
different according to search teams, So that could have made
it confusing for someone hiking there that was used to
seeing it one way and then they get out there
and it was completely changed. And that kind of ties
into the next theory that he went off route. He

(28:57):
could have gotten in there, turned around with how weird
it looked after the fire, and went off trail, and
then got into some really rugged train and fell or
got stuck. And again similar with the previous case, that
it's just such a large, massive area that they're not
going to necessarily find you. Another theory, this one probably

(29:19):
is maybe more plausible for someone in their eighties as
a sudden medical emergency. We don't need to go into
that again, but there was no public medical history released
by search and rescue teams. I don't think you can
rule it out for someone of that age. It's just
natural if you're in your eighties, this kind of intense
hiking could trigger more problems than someone in their twenties. Yeah,

(29:44):
and finally, the least two likely scenarios that law enforcement
talked about were voluntary disappearance and fell play.

Speaker 1 (29:51):
So what are what's your thoughts on this second case, again,
I think with all these I just go with what
my hunches. I feel like when you said a slip
and fall, and I feel like it's almost mixed with
the fires because you mentioned that they said with the
fires and the changing conditions, like it's more slippery and
there's more hazards. Yeah. So, and this is like pure opinion,

(30:15):
So someone who lives in this area, if you're listening,
this is not me saying this is how it is.
This is me making an assumption. I would love it
if you'd make a message and let us know if
that's true. I was just looking at all trails and
I grabbed a random one, but they all had some
kind of like similar. I wish I could go three
D on this similar looks the trails even though they're

(30:35):
burnt away, it seems like you can't go too far
off trail because it's like very steep. Yeah, so I
could imagine somebody who knows the area. Although it was changed,
I feel like you could still get oriented from the peaks. Now,
this is a guess. So that's where I was leaning
more towards. If the fires had altered the area and
it was more slippery A man his age. If he

(30:57):
did take a fall, that can be very detrimental if
you're older and you like. The worst injury you could
have is like a broken hip, and that's also a
very easy thing to break, especially in a rugged area.
You have a lot of blood loss when you break
at hip. So my hunch was immediately because of the
changing train, he wasn't necessarily lost, but it was more
treacherous than what he was used to. Yeah, and if

(31:18):
he wasn't being careful because he's hiked it so often,
he may have taken a spill that normally he wouldn't have. Yeah.
And yeah, maybe he was injured in trying to go
out and couldn't get out in a certain way. I
don't know. That's just that's the thing that stuck with me.
I don't know why anyone wouldn't find him because it
seems like a heavily trafficked area. Yeah, but that is
where my hunch went. I think it was a fall.

Speaker 2 (31:39):
Yeah, And because he didn't give anyone his itinerary, they
only know where his car was, He could have covered
a lot of ground before he had his accident.

Speaker 1 (31:47):
Yeah, I think he was very capable of covering a
lot of ground even for his age, so that could
be maybe he was far out.

Speaker 2 (31:53):
Yeah, and if you look at the timeline between when
he was officially reported missing, he likely started hiking on
the eleventh and his car was found on the twenty eighth,
So that's a pretty big gap between when he started
out there to when they started really searching for him.

Speaker 1 (32:09):
So yeah, I don't know. A lot could have happened.

Speaker 2 (32:12):
I think, unfortunately in his case that he sadly probably
was got turned around and then had some type of
significant fall that led to an injury, like you said,
like a broken hip or who knows what. Yeah, Okay,
moving on to our final case. So this one is
very recent. Monica Reza, and we unfortunately don't have a

(32:35):
date of birth, but we know she went missing on
June twenty second of twenty and twenty five. She was
a female, age sixty, height, four foot eleven, one hundred
and one pounds, gray hair, brown eyes, clothing and gears.
She was last seen in red long sleeve shirt, green
hiking pants, hiking shoes and boots. She was last seen,
like Joe had mentioned, at the six thousand foot gate

(32:57):
near Mount Waterman. We don't know anything about her personality
or medical issues or occupation. We do know her experience
in the wilderness, so she was known to be a
hiker of this area, so she was familiar with the
Mount Waterman area, and so she kind of knew the area.
She wasn't a complete out of town or hiking this area,

(33:20):
so she again, we don't have any official statement as
to why she was out there. She was hiking with
two other friends, and law enforcement really only said that
she was hiking near Mount Waterman and became separated. So
timeline starts Sunday, June twenty second of twenty twenty five.
It's around nine ten am. Monica was last seen near

(33:44):
the six thousand foot gate on Angel's Crest Highway by
the Mount Waterman trailhead in Angelus National Forest. She was
hiking with two other individuals. One hiker proceeded toward their
car while Monica continued on the trail with second hiker.
At some point near the ridgeline the round seven to
eight thousand feet, Monica became separated from the second hiker

(34:08):
under an unknown circumstance, so we don't know why they
split up. Monday, June twenty third of twenty twenty five,
so this is when they really considered her. She was
missing for about twenty four hours now, and this prompted
serious concerns from authorities. Search and rescue operations were launched
almost immediately. This included air rescue, air rescue, five canine units,

(34:31):
aerial support from drones and other specialized technology. They had
a lot of teams in here helping the Mantro Sar Alta,
Dina Mountain Rescue, Antelope Valley, Sierra Madre, Sar, San Diego
Mountain Rescue, Ventura County, East Valley, Sar Riverside Mountain Rescue,
San Bernardino County, and Orange County. We're all in on

(34:52):
the search, so pretty large the search and rescue operation.
And like we've said in these the other cases, in
Joe's when Joe was talking, the train was noted by
search and rescue personnel as extremely rugged with dense brush
including the poodle dog bush, steep ridgelines and obstacles that

(35:12):
require repelling via long ropes, and even helicopter extractions for
team safety. So really incredibly rugged and remote terrain. It's
now Tuesday, June twenty fourth, of twenty twenty five. Authorities
issued public appeals describing Monica and urging anyone with information
to come forward Anonymous tip options included crime stoppers, and

(35:34):
they had a phone number and website that you could
submit information on. And by this time, the Ventura County
East Valley Star Team joined the effort and deployed at
around five am to conduct ground searches. It's now Thursday,
June twenty sixth of twenty twenty five. We have additional
reports that confirmed search efforts were continuing in the challenging train,

(35:56):
with teams persisting in off trail searches near Mount Waterman
and on this day they had approximately thirty five searchers
in the field. It's now Monday, June thirtieth of twenty
twenty five. Some sources actually state this is the twenty ninth,
so just keep that as a grain of salt. This
is when the active response phase of the search officially concluded.

Speaker 1 (36:19):
Act it so real quick. Yeah, here's like a picture
about three days beforehand. Okay, so it is rugged and
there's stuff going on, but it's not like it's crazy
brush like you can get hidden in there. Yeah, and
that's what I was looking from the satellite too. I
close it, Yes, I did, like in the preview, it
doesn't look have the like densely forested. Yeah, I guess, Yeah,

(36:41):
I don't know. Yeah, I mean, first I'm not saying
you can't get lost, but yeah, it's not like it's
really thick.

Speaker 2 (36:49):
No, I mean, at first glance, it doesn't look. We've
covered cases where the train or the trail looks a
lot crazier.

Speaker 1 (36:59):
Yeah than that. You're right, that doesn't look I could
be missing something maybe on the ground. It's different. But
from the pictures on all trails, you know, not our
sponsor all trails, you give us call, we'd love to
heavy sponsors love they're an okay apple, We don't know.
We don't know. We don't know. I mean, we're not
sure yet. But anyway, but from the pictures, it doesn't
look it's like very sparse. Yeah, I questioned, like, how

(37:21):
did she get separated? Then they didn't have any comments
from the friend that she was with because the one
went to the car and then she was with one
other person. I mean, it's still kind of a recent case. Yeah,
we happened in July June and Virgune.

Speaker 2 (37:34):
Yeah, we don't know the circumstance of the separation. We
don't know why she split from her companion. That would
be a crucial piece of information to understand what happened.
And maybe authorities know and they just haven't released that
information yet.

Speaker 1 (37:50):
We don't really know. But you know, let's see what
the trip reports from June. Getting down in there. What
was it in again? She went missing? Twenty second twenty
second in June of this someone had a there's a
hiker that went missing on this trail the past Sunday morning.
She was the last on one point five miles from
the trailhead on the way back to the parking lot.
If anyone on Sunday saw or heard anything, please contact chairs.

(38:12):
So it was a hiker that went on the twenty
fifth You just posted one and a half miles in
the trailhead. I'm going to see on the because it
should a pause it when it gets to one point
five miles so we can get an idea of where
she was exactly. Yeah, I love this technology of this
app that I've never heard of before that I don't
want to give any credit to. We're building our own
at one point one, one point two, I know they

(38:33):
need to like get out right there right here roughly
she's at her way back, she's going down. Okay. The
road should be insight, Yeah, you have that right, there
should be Yeah, the operative term. You should be able
to see the if you're you should be able to
see the road. Okay, it's a little steep, Yeah it's Yeah.
If the trail's not going straight, you could run into

(38:55):
some issues. I don't think if you have an accident
here and you fall in sadly, say you pass away
or okay, go on. Sorry, I'm just saying, like, this
is so close to the road, I searchers would find you.
The other thing I'm thinking too, if you go off trail. Yeah,
if you're heading down this way, and for those listening,

(39:15):
it's like on the side of a mountain. But if
you accidentally went any direction, you would hit a road. Yeah,
unless you kept going along the ridge. But if you
kept just kept going downhill. Because you can only really
go in a couple directions, like the longest one to
be this way, you'd still hit two. If you want
that way, you'd hit two. If you went this way,
you hit the parking lot or the rest of the trail.

(39:35):
And it's not densely forced it. The only option is
she went the other way. If she went the wrong
side of this.

Speaker 2 (39:43):
Shoe ridge in deeper, yeah, that could be a problem.
And now you're getting farther away from the road.

Speaker 1 (39:48):
So if she thought she was going down towards the
parking lot and down this way, yeah, oh that's a
real possibility. Yeah, I asked, where's the other friend? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (39:58):
Well, and like I said, it's such a a recent
case that maybe law enforcement has more information on this
and they just haven't released it all yet.

Speaker 1 (40:07):
Okay, Yeah, I like what you're getting at. Though, she
went off the wrong way on the ridge, and like
with fires or whatever, she thought she was on trail
and went left instead of right. And we don't know
what caused turger this. This is a whole lot of
nothing on the other side of that ridge.

Speaker 2 (40:22):
Yeah, we don't know what caused the separation. Maybe she
had some kind of medical emergency and was rushing back
to the road to get to her car and got
turned around.

Speaker 1 (40:33):
We don't know.

Speaker 2 (40:33):
Yeah, we don't know the circumstance of that separation.

Speaker 1 (40:38):
But like I said.

Speaker 2 (40:39):
On June thirtieth, the active response phase of the search concluded,
and Captain Ryan Vienna stated search efforts had entered a
more limited ongoing investigative investigative phase to be taken up
by Homicide Bureau Missing Person's Unit. Now, don't jump to conclusions.
That is standard perceed They have a division within the

(41:02):
Homicide Bureau that does missing persons.

Speaker 1 (41:05):
That doesn't mean they're not They're not alluding to anything.
That's just no standard practice.

Speaker 2 (41:11):
So just quickly, here we have just some people in
social media from the area and involved in search and
rescue had made some interesting comments about how the active
search only lasted for eight days and that it seemed
a little strange when it's typical for him to go
usually two weeks. So they cut this one down to

(41:32):
eight days, and a lot of people then countered that
by saying that they acknowledged the complexity and danger of
the train and how the star teams were really doing
some challenging search work. So I understand why they might
have called it off to prevent injury to the searchers.

(41:52):
So all right, here is some redditor comments. Everybody, Yeah, everybody,
calm down. I'm going to read information Reddit. It could
be one hundred percent false, but I'm gonna read it.

Speaker 1 (42:03):
You be the judge I've given you a disclaimer, So
calm down, down, calm down. So there's a comment somebody said, reportedly,
she hiked here very frequently, was with two people separated
at some point, turn around, and didn't see anymore. Someone
responded to that and said, this is incorrect. I'm close
with this group she hiked with, and they confirmed this
was the first time any of them had hiked here before.

(42:25):
So again, this person on Reddit, who we have not verified,
is claiming to be close with a group of friends
and they are claiming that they had never hiked here
before time. So that could be hogwash, could be a
term that is used by all the kids these days.

Speaker 2 (42:39):
Yeah, or it could support my theory she went down
the wrong way.

Speaker 1 (42:43):
Yeah, that's true. So it's chillin' at from two months
ago wrote that on Redditt's we can maybe theorize if
this person isn't a liar getting along with your theory,
there she is missing.

Speaker 2 (42:56):
She was a mile and a half from the trailhead
theoretically could see the road from the trails, so that
would make sense if she hasn't hiked this area that.

Speaker 1 (43:03):
Oh, here we go. That person was up there on
the thirtieth.

Speaker 2 (43:07):
Oh that's the comment that I mentioned here from social
media that they were surprised how early the search ended,
just eight days, And then someone else said it it
moved to a different area. Yeah, another person said two
weeks minimum. This is fun to theorize.

Speaker 1 (43:22):
I love the Reddit comments, but all these are uninformed people.
It's the telephone game. Yeah, you really. I was looking
for more chillin at comments, assuming that they aren't liars. So, okay,
we don't have to go on this anymore because it's
Reddit unverified all the stuff, but so so supposedly via

(43:42):
comments on Reddit, they may have not have ever hiked
there before. Okay, so we'll do a theory as if
they haven't, and then maybe one is if they have.

Speaker 2 (43:49):
Yeah, let me just see if here if I have
any other information. No, that's really it. The theories that
law enforcement are going with at the moment is accidental
fall or injury and steep brushy train. Not going to
go into the details again, but it's it's similar to
the other cases. This train is rugged and remote, and
if the person on social media is correct, they'd never

(44:13):
hike this area before, so they could be lost, turned around.
We don't know why they were separated, could have could
have been some reason why she was rushing back to
the car and got turned around. We don't know, and
that could lead to her going off route. Was there
any mention if there are cell service there, I'm assuming not. No,
there isn't. But yeah, I mean, if you look at this,

(44:34):
just down a satellite.

Speaker 1 (44:35):
That's why I was guessing. I'm like, Okay, what could
be a reason she's running the car. Maybe she got
a text message yeah or something. No, yeah, I'm just
theorizing here.

Speaker 2 (44:42):
Yeah, fall off route, she got lost, sudden medical events.
This kind of goes into this was a theory that
they gave medium weight to that could have been dehydration.
In this time of the year in June up here,
it's getting pretty hot. Maybe she was rushing down because
she felt she was getting dehydrated and didn't have enough water.

(45:06):
She could have had some kind of medical emergency that
caused her to run down there. Foul play probably not.
That was another low theory, and voluntary disappearance. Neither of
those really fit this according to law enforcement. I think
with this one, I really wish we knew a little
more information about why she was separated, what caused that,

(45:27):
What does the friend know is it like that person
said they just turned around and she was gone here.

Speaker 1 (45:32):
Hold on, Okay, back to reddit. Picked to Reddit. This
contains an opinion from somebody who was at the area
for several hours. So again it's redded. Everyone calmed down, calm.
We were acknowledging that this could all be hogwash. But
they said, I was this was two months ago. Okay.
Key driver six four three eight said this. I was
out there today for several hours. I'm one hundred percent

(45:55):
certain the actual literal trails were repeatedly searched cumulatively, probably
of times in the last week. No question. This lady
isn't just sitting there easily visible on the immediate trail,
but the steep, rugged terrain is such that it is
entirely possible she fell and a roller tumbled to somewhere
off trail within a few hundred feet and is blocked
from view under a rock log or bushes, and that

(46:18):
hundreds of Star members missed it as they cannot acts
as the spot and cannot otherwise see anything useful to
repel hoist down. For this is essentially infinitely true in
terms of small, inaccessible, not visible spots not far off
trail I assume or hope really that in the first
twenty four to forty hours, so our teams deployed drones,
night vision and heat seeking methods. I know there are

(46:39):
multiple aircraft involved, and I trust they they know what
they're doing. Sadly, at this juncture, it would almost certainly
be just a recovery mission, which makes sense since Star
teams have essentially stopped, but everyone else stay on trail
and be super observant. Maybe someone will notice something not
noticed before. So these are the ones where, of course
this could all be false, but it was a well
written thing of somebody who clearly seems to have been there.

(47:03):
I mean, that's a lot to write for, Like, I'm
just gonna make up the story, and it makes sense
logically to me that. Yeah, so for assuming that they
were there. Yeah, and they're saying it is stup steep
and rugged. Yep. From our view, it didn't look super
steep and rugged. But let's assume this person's not lying. Yeah,
I think the fall like you were saying, is very plausible. Yeah,

(47:23):
I would be. I wonder if they'd do the Fleer thing.
Remember how they did that with David our second episode,
and it took like a year before they got the results.
So it's possible if they ran the drones and fleer
they might find something, but it's going to take some
time while they build their mosaic and then they can
go out and do the right You.

Speaker 2 (47:40):
Told it, you said you remember Tara and Nancy were
telling us about all the drone footage that it takes
people hundreds of hours, Yeah, to go through every photo
and every second of the video to analyze everything on
the ground.

Speaker 1 (47:55):
Yeah. So I think they'll hopefully they'll find something, but
it could take like a year year, it could be
a year or so. Well, check back in on this one.

Speaker 2 (48:03):
I yeah, I really think that she probably will be recovered.
The remains will be found somewhere around the radius of
that area where she was last that one point five
miles to the road, because I mean, my guess is
she maybe she got turned around and went the wrong way. Yeah,
I if she's not familiar with this area.

Speaker 1 (48:25):
It's I mean, simply going the wrong side off the
ridge and then does it does? Yeah, like it gets
more rugged if you go left, then it does to the.

Speaker 2 (48:32):
Right, or even if she went straight along the ridge
instead of cutting down, can.

Speaker 1 (48:36):
See easily, and then it looks like it might be
a good idea. Yeah, if you're not, if you don't
know the area, and I had just kept look at this, Yeah,
it's a sharp turn on the trail. What if she's
kept going, kept going and then had a slip and
fell right side of the road and fell down into
that valley And like that person on Reddit said, could

(48:56):
have fallen into an area inaccessible by searchers. I think
that's very plausible, and maybe we'll get you know, people
will get closure at some point when they're able to
analyze enough evidence from the drones and helicopters, And I
assume people will probably go out here in the coming
months and still hike the area. Maybe some canyon years

(49:18):
will get down there into that canyon at some point,
like upon something happened, upon something.

Speaker 2 (49:23):
But yeah, sadly, I think something happened and she fell
after she got turned around.

Speaker 1 (49:30):
Yeah, I agree with you on that one. Yeah, I
think that's the most plausible. I think that's the most
plausible in all three of them. Yeah, honestly, I'd say
the last one is definitely I say the elderly man
is more of a fall an injury for sure.

Speaker 2 (49:42):
I would say anyone listening that is planning the hike
in this area really stay on trail.

Speaker 1 (49:48):
Well popular that no one's gonna listen. Now, some people will, yeah, but.

Speaker 2 (49:52):
The common denominator in these is that it seems like
they had a fall and potentially went off the trail
and it gets real rugged, real quick.

Speaker 1 (50:02):
Yeah, So I agree. Cool, All right, Well log in
and let us know what you think in all three
of the cases. But thanks again for tuning into our show.
We appreciate you all for listening and sharing locations unknown
with your friends and family. Be sure to like and
follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, but you can
go onto our LinkedIn page where we update everything very regularly,
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(50:23):
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(50:45):
those are always a lot of fun. That is for
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whether backpacking, camping, or simply taking a walk, always remember
to leave no trace. Thanks and we will see you
all next time. It's a trail, it's aand trail.

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