Crime Off the Grid Meets Locations Unknown

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Thousands of people have mysteriously vanished in America's wilderness. Join
us as we dive into the deep end of the
unexplainable and try to piece together what happened.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
And you are listening to Locations Unknown. What's up, everybody?

Speaker 3 (00:54):
Welcome back to another episode of Locations Unknown. I am
your solo host, Mike van de Bogart. Know Joe this
week he is out taking his daughter to college, So
very special moment for Joe and we're really excited for him.
So we don't actually have a new episode this week.
So last week, Joe and I went on the Crime

(01:16):
Off the Grid show, So they're are show on our
Unknown Media Group network. If you're not familiar with the show,
it's hosted by two ladies who have spent over thirty
years in the National Park Service as law enforcement rangers.
So really cool background. Nancy was a captain in the
US Forest Service at one point two entires spent most

(01:38):
of her career in Yellowstone National Park. So Joe and
I went on their show and we brought with us
three cases that we've covered years ago. So these cases
are really interesting. If you're familiar with our cold case episodes,
we did it, you know, three of them in a row,
very high level, super high level, and then we let

(01:58):
we sat back in, let Tara Nancy tell us their
theories on what they think happened, because these cases are
very bizarre. So one of them was the case of
the guy who was working on a Discovery Channel show
and just ran off into the woods, just up and
ran off, and everyone was kind of like, where do
you go? Never found them? So yeah, we went on

(02:20):
their show and we went through these three cases and
then listened to their theories and it was a really
cool episode. They published it to their feed this Monday,
and we thought it would be really cool to we're
going to republish it to our feed for all of
those people who have never heard of their show, don't
listen to their show. Their show is true crime, but

(02:40):
it's different than what we do. So they cover actual
crime in the National Park Service, so murders and things
like that, whereas we cover you know, somebody went hiking
down this trail and just vanished, So they don't really
cover stuff we do, and we don't really ever cover
murders like that in the National Park Service. So two
different shows, still true crime, but their show is great.

(03:02):
I recommend you go give them a listen, go subscribe,
and they have an amazing amount of experience from actually
working in the National Park Service and actually one of
the cases we covered on their show earlier this week,
they were able to speak with people in the Park
Service that were actually on the search and rescue. That's

(03:23):
the kind of access they still have with the National
Park Service. So really cool episode. We're going to post
it to our feed ad free so you can listen
to the whole episode uninterrupted, and we really hope that
you like it and you go over there and subscribe
to their show. They're great, and we're going to do
more collaborations together because they have so much experience. Joe
and I love talking to them every time because every

(03:45):
time we speak there's new stories we hear about which
are just fascinating. Hope you like this episode. Joe and
I will be back next week with a brand new episode.
We'll be back before you know it, and without further ado,
please enjoy an episodeode from Crime Off the Grid.

Speaker 4 (04:14):
Hey there, if you like true crime stories and you
love being in the great outdoors, you have come to
the right place. Welcome to Crime Off the Grid. Hey,
welcome everyone to a special episode of Crime Off the Grid.

Speaker 5 (04:33):
I'm Tara and I'm Nancy.

Speaker 4 (04:36):
And joining us today are the dynamic duo behind the
Locations Unknown podcast, Mike vander Bogert. Do I pronounce that right?

Speaker 2 (04:45):
That's pretty good?

Speaker 4 (04:46):
Okay? And Joe Eroto did I pronounce that right?

Speaker 2 (04:50):
You did?

Speaker 4 (04:51):
Awesome? Two guys who spend their free time wandering in
the woods and asking, Hey, where'd everybody go? And they
turned getting lost. They've turned getting lost into an art
form and a podcast, and so Mike and Joe used
their decade of backcountry experience to explore mysterious unsolved disappearances

(05:14):
within North America's wilderness. The show blends elements of true crime,
such as unsolved mysteries, with the adventurous survival focus style
of survivor. Man, is that still a show? I don't
even know? And oh that's a guy? Okay?

Speaker 2 (05:35):
All right?

Speaker 4 (05:36):
Do you guys delve into cases of people who have
vanished literally without a trace, in remote and treacherous environments.
So grab your compass and your best conspiracy theory. We're
going off the Grid with Locations Unknown, So welcome to
the show.

Speaker 2 (05:51):
Mike and Joe thanks about what we've been doing.

Speaker 4 (05:57):
I know, well, no kidding, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (05:59):
You're big time.

Speaker 4 (06:00):
So we're very honored to have you here on the
show with us.

Speaker 5 (06:03):
Okay, guys, before we get started, though, what what made
you guys want to do this? Start this podcast? Locations
on that Well.

Speaker 3 (06:12):
It started back when Joe and I did a lot
of hiking together. We would be out in the woods
and you would sometimes come across a missing person sign
or okay, someone in the ranger station would say something
about keep an eye out, you know, if you're out there,
and we would always there's not a lot you don't

(06:33):
you know, you don't get cell phone reception at night.
When you're around, you know, the tent. You kind of
start talking about different stuff, different disappearances. And I actually
kind of got into the Missing four or one books
years ago, which kind of smarked my interest. Initially, I
started a website that just kind of tracked missing persons.

Speaker 4 (06:51):
Oh wow.

Speaker 2 (06:52):
And then Joe and I were at a bar one
day and.

Speaker 3 (06:54):
We're just talking about it, and I think Joe's like, hey,
maybe we should try just doing a podcast and no
one might listen, but we'll have fun.

Speaker 2 (07:02):
I always call this thing Mike's Baby, because you started
the website and you were telling me all about it
because you were really excited about that, And I wasn't
even into the four one one books until you told
me after that. I mean, it was definitely based off
of when we go hiking, like, oh, you're gonna be
on this trailing glacier. Well, three people went missing last time,
so if you see anything, let us know right what

(07:23):
the heck happened to these people? Yeah, or, as you
so eloquently put it, we walk out there and go
where is everybody?

Speaker 3 (07:28):
Well, as we dug into the cases, more and more
we kept getting cases where it was beyond just someone
went out into the woods and got turned around and
wasn't found again. It was cases where someone would be
in a group of people, they might be lagging behind
on the trail twenty feet someone looks back, they're there
one second, five ten seconds later, they look back again

(07:51):
and they're gone. Yeah, and they never find any gear,
they don't find any tracks, nothing.

Speaker 2 (07:57):
So those cases are really kind of what wild. They're wild?

Speaker 3 (08:01):
I mean, they're still you can't, I can't. A lot
of cases we see they were like what could have
possibly happened?

Speaker 2 (08:06):
They were there and then gone.

Speaker 3 (08:08):
Like so it's some of these cases are so fascinating,
and I think that's why you've seen an explosion in
these kinds of shows.

Speaker 2 (08:16):
When Joe and I started, there was no one really
doing it. Yeah, we were like the first outdoors true
crime specific in the genre, blending that together.

Speaker 3 (08:24):
Yeah, now it's really grown into a huge part of podcasting.

Speaker 2 (08:29):
It's kind of surprising that people do continue to like
and want listen and watch our show because the end
is usually the same, Yeah.

Speaker 4 (08:37):
And it's we don't know what happens.

Speaker 2 (08:40):
We don't know.

Speaker 3 (08:41):
Yeah, what do you think exactly?

Speaker 2 (08:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (08:45):
So, Yeah, they're fascinating cases and I love talking about them,
and Joe and I we've been doing this now since
twenty eighteen and.

Speaker 2 (08:56):
A long time six years.

Speaker 6 (08:57):
Yeah, no, more than that, Carrie's one.

Speaker 2 (09:04):
We're good at math, Yeah, good at math counting kind
of good.

Speaker 3 (09:08):
But no, Yeah, we enjoy doing it, and we love
all the new shows that are crapping up, especially a
show like yours that comes from more of a perspective
of people that have worked in the park, which is
really interesting. That's obviously something we we bring a different
perspective to a lot of these cases. But we're excited
to be here with you both of you today because

(09:29):
you bring you both bring a very unique perspective to
cases like this.

Speaker 4 (09:33):
Absolutely well, thanks, Hey, can you share while we're we're
actually affiliated in some way, can you explain while we're
sort of affiliated now, what you mean?

Speaker 2 (09:44):
So part of us, part of our growth is we've
been trying to bring shows like ours together to form
kind of like a co op in the in the
podcast space. So we create an unknown media and essentially
we host you guys and help potentially bring more ad
revenue to your show and to the network. But just
in hopes of we believe in game theory and that

(10:06):
is there's more than enough room in this space, so
we don't need to be fighting each other for listens.
We can share it because what we found is people
who like these styles of shows, they listen to all
of them. You know, they'll listen to National Park After
Dark and our show and your show. So we're trying
to figure out ways to bring everybody together and see
if we can't all profit off of a much bigger
pie than going independently. So yeah, we're still in the

(10:29):
beginning phases of it. But it seems to be going
pretty well right now. I don't know, you guys seen
a bump in your numbers.

Speaker 4 (10:35):
Yeah, yeah, actually we have thanks to you guys. Well,
what are the other shows that our brothers and sisters
who are they share with everybody? What other shows should
they be listening to?

Speaker 2 (10:45):
We have a right go ahead?

Speaker 3 (10:47):
Oh no, I would say we have Off the Trails,
which is a it's a similar show to ours, but
it's with two female hosts, so you know, sometimes people
prefer male hosts, sometimes people prefer female hosts, and they
have their own angle on it. So it's it's a
similar show, but it's not the same. And people that

(11:07):
have liked our show have kind of also gravitated towards
their show because it offers kind of a different listening experience.
And we have Peanut Butter and Mountain Podcast. That's another
great he's actually got a pretty big following on YouTube.

Speaker 2 (11:21):
Yes, and then Weirdos.

Speaker 3 (11:25):
We know that one is kind of more of a
historical not exactly in our wheelhouse, but it's a really
interesting show about strange stuff famous people in history kind
of did behind closed Doors, very fascinating. A lot of
I'm surprised at some of the weird stuff people do.

Speaker 2 (11:43):
Yes, so yeah, that shows not for kids.

Speaker 6 (11:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (11:47):
And then.

Speaker 2 (11:49):
And then Who Runs This Park?

Speaker 3 (11:51):
Which is a really it's kind of an interview style
show where she interviews lots of you know, park superintendents
and people that are in the outdoor space that either
run organizations or.

Speaker 2 (12:02):
Outdoor companies or are involved in the park.

Speaker 3 (12:05):
So it's a really informative show if you want to
learn about kind of what goes on in these parks
and in that space.

Speaker 4 (12:13):
Yeah, I'm surprised she gets people to talk to her.

Speaker 2 (12:16):
Yeah. Yeah, well I will.

Speaker 4 (12:19):
Say Nancy and I, we generally only cover cases that
have been adjudicated or have an ending.

Speaker 2 (12:28):
So smart, weird Gray, Well.

Speaker 4 (12:31):
That's my brain is really hard to wrap around, you know,
like researching. So that's kind of hard what you do.
I think researching cases that where people are actually missing,
and it's actually a really good thing that you do,
and you know, it makes people think and maybe we
especially go to a park and yeah I just heard
about this one guy that's been missing for two years.
And anyway, it's hard for me to wrap my head

(12:54):
around the research for that, So thank you for doing that.
And we'll just stick to our conclusions.

Speaker 2 (12:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (12:59):
In one of the the cool byproducts of Joe and
I covering cases like this is every so often we
might cover a case that happened ten years ago or
fifteen years ago, and out of the blue, we'll get
contacted by the spouse or one of the person's kids
or another family member and they'll just, you know, they'll
thank us for continuing to get the message because a

(13:22):
lot of the cases, most of them are unsolved, and
the family really just wants anyone in everyone to talk
about them as much as possible because they're hoping maybe
somebody hears it and is hiking out there and find something.

Speaker 2 (13:34):
That was actually the most surprising to me. Yeah, because
we talked about when we were first starting, you kind
of get nervous. You're like, we're telling the stories of people, Yeah,
especially families that have had tragedy. You don't know how
they're going to react, and we're kind of like waiting
with baited breath, like, yeah, a bunch of hate mail
from family members and it's not always friendly, it's not over.
But I mean I can think of one or two

(13:56):
out of a one hundred and fifty cases I mean,
normally we don't hear anything, but the majority of them
not only reach out, they've sent us gifts sometimes like
it's really neat. It makes us feel better that we're
doing it. I think the big thing is too we
try and not disparage people, even if there's people that
have made some dumb mistakes, because we all make really

(14:17):
dumb mistakes, and I think a lot of us are
lucky enough to get out of our dumb mistake, So
we're not the type of people we're gonna just crap
all over somebody screwing up and then becoming missing in
the woods or having a tragedy. No, being respectful is
always key, but yeah, it's been overwhelmingly supportive, and that's
been surprising.

Speaker 3 (14:37):
Yeah, it's a real fine line when you're talking about
someone's loved one who's still missing and they have no closure,
no remains even found. There's a real fine line you
have to walk to not be disrespectful. But also at
the end of the day, you know, we're providing entertainment.
Kind of sounds dark, but so Joe and I try
to always be respectful about the sub but also Joe

(15:01):
and I also we tell people how we act like
in the podcast is authentic.

Speaker 2 (15:06):
That's how we are in real life.

Speaker 3 (15:08):
So we try to just be kind of you know,
who we are, and so some you know, sometimes we'll
get comments from listeners that we're joking around too much
during an episode, and I think people miss the point,
like these are really dark topics and subjects, and uh,
you know, if we're talking about a location, we might
crack a few jokes, but when we get into the
timeline and talking about the missing person, we were never

(15:32):
you know, we.

Speaker 2 (15:32):
We try our best.

Speaker 3 (15:33):
You know, once in a while probably happens, but we
try really hard to be respectful of right and you know,
if we talk about things like suicide, we try to
provide we you know, we provide the numbers people can
call if someone's experiencing that. And so, yeah, it's a
real fine line, especially in this kind of topic, because
it's understandable people can be real uh mad at you

(15:56):
and talking about you know, one of their close family
members that went missing, and you know, they're emotional about it.
It's understandable, and so yeah, it's that's probably the nicer
thing about doing cases that have been have gone through
the legal system. You're it's you know, emotions are probably

(16:16):
cooled off once the whole case is done. There's closure,
there's some kind of closure, I.

Speaker 4 (16:21):
Guess, yeah, yeah, yeah, And the same with Nancy and I.
We you know, I feel like we come at this
like you, you guys do with humor, and a lot
of people I think, gravitate to these types of shows
because there's humor in it, because they are dark topics
and you can just you just it's too hard to
get through this day after day and listen all the
time if all you were listening to was the dark,

(16:43):
depressing aspect of it. And we never make fun of victims,
and we try to actually provide information about victims of
crime and things because we've both worked with them. But
we have no problem, you know, given a hard time
to the dirt backs that create.

Speaker 5 (17:01):
The new tongues so mean.

Speaker 4 (17:05):
And w W and D what would Nancy do?

Speaker 2 (17:11):
Still? I tell that story to so.

Speaker 4 (17:15):
Much it's totally legitimate. But on that note, you guys
came prepared with three stories that are locations unknown, full
on typical stories that you tell, and you've already told
this maybe the full version previously. I don't know about
all of them. But it's maybe one or two of them.
I don't know. But you're giving us an abbreviated version

(17:38):
of three stories. So we're pretty excited, and so maybe
we'll just let you go ahead and get started.

Speaker 2 (17:44):
Yeah, all right, are we? Are we going to do
like music and everything.

Speaker 4 (17:51):
I can add that in because I note you have
to share with me your your file, your MP three
file for that your intro music.

Speaker 2 (18:00):
Oh I could do them, no, Like, this is how
we do the show. I do the music live, yea.
Every time you hear that music, I'm actually controlled.

Speaker 5 (18:06):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (18:08):
I'll do the breakdown music just for fun, and I'll
love everybody's mic on it.

Speaker 4 (18:12):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (18:13):
Yeah, I do it because real quick, there was a
couple episodes where he was gone and I was running
it all myself and trying to do the episode, and
I was pressing all the wrong buttons.

Speaker 1 (18:23):
And.

Speaker 3 (18:25):
So, like, I get Joe a lot of credit because
he is manning the mother over there and still talking.

Speaker 4 (18:31):
That's like flying a helicopter.

Speaker 2 (18:34):
It's it's a very important skill. The supersedes all all
their skills in my life. All right, So we're gonna
do Terrence Woods Pierce. Is that the first one.

Speaker 3 (18:45):
Yep, that's the first one. So all three of these
we have done on our show before. Usually we do
about an hour for an episode. We've condensed these down
so we can get through three of them.

Speaker 2 (18:55):
I'll do the breakdown. He's going the first one just
for fun and though, okay, we don't have to continue.
Are you guys ready, I'll do the whole thing. All right, everybody,
let's gear up and get out to explore locations unknown.
I just got chills. See now we have to wait
for a specific part where I start talking. This is
behind the scenes.

Speaker 4 (19:15):
This is how the sausage is made. I can't believe
we get to see it. Nancy, look at this, I
know right.

Speaker 2 (19:22):
On October fifth, twenty eighteen, twenty seven year old freelance
filmmaker Terrence Woods abruptly ran down a steep slope near
the Penman Mine during a TV shoot and vanished into
the dense mountain forest. A large multi day search found
no trace. Conflicting accounts, terrain challenges, and investigative gaps at

(19:43):
fueled debate over what happened. Join us this week as
we investigate the disappearance of Terrence Woods. There it is
the music. As we start talking about the location information.
So this story takes place in the Penman Mine in

(20:04):
the Oral Grande area within the Nez Pierce Clearwater National Forest.
It's in Idaho County, Idaho. The base of operations is
in Elk City, Idaho, which is approximately elevation of near
the near sight of six thousand and real quick, is
it Pierce or Purse Perse Per?

Speaker 4 (20:23):
I say Purse. We have miss Purse in person. Person.

Speaker 2 (20:29):
We have experts on with us.

Speaker 4 (20:32):
Oh, my gosh, we edit so much.

Speaker 2 (20:36):
We met.

Speaker 4 (20:36):
Hey like you, we've been getting We get emails about
mispronouncing things.

Speaker 2 (20:42):
Hey, hold on, This is how you know you're starting
to make it when you start getting all the hate mail. Yes, yes, haters. Yeah.
So we're talking about the Nez perse National Forest. It
is two point two million acres roughly and administratively combined
with Clearwater National Force in twenty twelve. Land span from

(21:04):
the Oregon border to the Montana border, bounded by the
Salmon River to the south and Idaho Panhandle and a
National forest to the north. A heritage so it's the
traditional homeland of the I can't pronounce this Nimipooh. The
Nez Perce Forest name reflects this history. I think I
got that right.

Speaker 4 (21:23):
I think that sounds good.

Speaker 2 (21:24):
Yeah, yeah, good, yeah. Yeah. It's extremely mountainous. The mountains
are about five thousand and seven thousand feet on average
in elevation. They're a heavy dead fall so Logpole and
Douglas Fir. It creates pickup sticks quote unquote conditions that
are hard to traverse. Thick forest understory, so a lot
of down trees. It's hard, hard to navigate some of

(21:44):
the climate or seasonal factors that would occur in early October,
cold nights at elevation. Survival without proper gear is difficult.
So some of the wildlife in the area. You'll find timberwolves, raccoons, moose,
black bear, coyote, cougar, elk in, among other smaller species.
So some of the hazards you might run into steep

(22:05):
slopes and cliffs, dense deadfall, hypothermia and exposure, very limited
cell service, sparse population density. There is about two people
per square mile, cited by the local sheriff. Rapid weather
changes rain to snow during the search and navigation challenges.
So Mike tell us about Terrence Woods.

Speaker 3 (22:26):
Yes, So Terrence age twenty seven as of twenty eighteen.

Speaker 2 (22:30):
He was a male.

Speaker 3 (22:31):
He was about one hundred and thirty pounds. He had
black hair that was shaved tight. His occupation he was
a filmmaker journalist. He did documentaries and reality TV shows,
and he had worked internationally in Turkey and also in Alaska.
He had some experience in the wilderness. He was on

(22:51):
some rugged shoots, but he had never been in this location.
We talked about this before the show, but we did
this episode in twenty twenty, so quite a way is
back in. Some of the sources we used actually are
no longer available on the internet.

Speaker 2 (23:06):
But at the time we had.

Speaker 3 (23:10):
The items that were found in a backpack that he
left on the job site. So and according to our
sources at the time, the backpack was given back to
his parents. So it had camera bags, batteries, sharpies, over
the counter, cough meds, hand cream, an iPhone charger, a
small folding knife, and a stun gun.

Speaker 6 (23:31):
That's interesting, yeah, so an interesting mix of things.

Speaker 3 (23:35):
But I could not find any source, you know, recent
sources that mentioned this backpack, So take that with a
grain of salt.

Speaker 2 (23:43):
I'm gonna trust your original investigation because you're very thorough.

Speaker 3 (23:48):
No, I remember reading a news article with that in it,
So I don't know why the article's gone now, but
it is.

Speaker 4 (23:55):
So.

Speaker 3 (23:56):
He had no known health or medical conditions prior to
this disappearing, according to family members and recent demeanor, so
friends said he had sent pre trip texts suggesting he
didn't really want to go to the site. He was
reportedly quiet and acting off, and he had sent some

(24:17):
weird texts back to his father, So we'll get into
that in a minute. And post incident crew feedback. So
the production manager later criticized his performance, and some witnesses
corroborated the sudden sprint down the slope, so we know that.

Speaker 2 (24:35):
Going into timeline again, the one.

Speaker 3 (24:39):
Of the sources that I used had specific times for
the text messages that I'm about to talk to, but
more recent articles didn't specifically list the times. So I'll
list the times, but just remember that in the back
of your head. So timeline starts in fall of twenty eighteen.
He's hired by the London based Raw TV production company
for a series about Penman Mine. The assignment was from

(25:01):
October first to November mid November, based out of Montana
in Idaho. On September thirtieth, His father, which is Terrence Senior,
drops him at a Maryland airport.

Speaker 2 (25:13):
We're now in.

Speaker 3 (25:13):
October, so October first to October fifth of the morning,
so he's now in Montana. He had texted his father
that he was in good spirits in that same time
period on ten four, so this would have been late evening,
Idaho time. He had text his father that he just
got to the hotel in Idaho, so we know he's
in Idaho.

Speaker 2 (25:33):
He's near where he's going to be filming.

Speaker 3 (25:36):
It's now October fifth, about twelve fifty eight am. He
sends his father a silent video of a canyon river,
which is kind of strange for that time of night.
Then again at October fifth, at three am, he calls
his father and says he's arrived and is okay. So
that would have been the base in Elk City. Then

(25:56):
he texts his father again at five forty four am.
Now he's saying he's coming home early on Wednesday, so
that would have been October tenth. It's now October fifth,
it's late afternoon, early evening. He's at the Penman Mine,
which Joe said is about six thousand feet So while
they were wrapping for the day, Terrence said he needs
to relieve himself. His radio is later found on the

(26:18):
ground and his production manager sees him already fifteen feet
down a steep slope, sprinting into the forest and he
the guy said it was like a hare, So like
a rabbit, just sprinting into the woods. There was a
short pursuit by some of the production crew, but they
aborted it to avoid spooking him. And then the crew

(26:38):
did some checks you know, by the axis road, and
they didn't find him, so they reported a missing so
it's now wild.

Speaker 2 (26:48):
He just says, I got to go to the bathroom
and just sprints off into the woods. Yeah, I mean it.

Speaker 3 (26:54):
I remember covering this at the time and it was
just bizarre. He was kind of fine one minute and
then just runs down into the woods.

Speaker 5 (27:02):
So I wonder what a short chase was. I mean,
you know, when they were chasing him, I wonder if
that ten yards.

Speaker 2 (27:09):
Two hundred yards?

Speaker 3 (27:11):
Yeah, yeah, I think at the time we had some
questions about reports from the crew and what was going
on with that, and maybe we can get into that
in five I said, I.

Speaker 2 (27:22):
Vaguely remember talking about how like it sounded like they're
probably treated him like crap because even after he's missing,
the production manager seemed to like kind of crap on him. Yeah,
for how good he was doing, It's like, oh, now's
maybe not the time though, to speak ill of somebody
who's missing. Yeah, a little bit.

Speaker 3 (27:38):
So later that day, same day, October fifth, at six
forty one pm, we we got a nine one to
one log that notes a mail twenty seven on the
London based TV crew having a really hard time emotionally
and not going to respond back to responders. So they
must have called nine to one one at some point

(27:59):
after he had run off off. And then between October fifth,
that evening and October eleventh, there was a very large
search and rescue operation that went on.

Speaker 2 (28:09):
It was multi county.

Speaker 3 (28:11):
They had ATVs horses, multiple dog teams, they had helicopter
with heat sensing equipment, and like Joe mentioned in the
location profile, it's extremely rugged. It seems like every time
we cover one of these cases, the weather is always bad.
So they had rain and high elevation snow which hampered
a lot of the air operations. But they didn't find

(28:32):
any tracks in the snow, or at least none were
reported and then by October eleventh, the search was scaled
back after a week of finding nothing. And then I
just have a few notes on kind of during and
after the search and rescue operations. So the crew reportedly
entered the production's manager's room to collect clothing for dogs,

(28:58):
and they checked his room room status. There was never
a subpoena issued for Terrence's phone records or laptop history,
and the sheriff later opined search and rescue teams believe
Terrence likely reached the road and left the immediate area,
but then others doubted. He doubted anyone could run out

(29:20):
given the deadfall densities, and there's a strange thing going
on in this part of the country too, So around
this time, on the October fifth, only four hours later,
seventy six year old Connie Johnson was reported missing near
Fog Mountain. And then on October seventh, Jose Menendez Morales,
he was forty two, was overdue route to Elk City

(29:43):
and his last contact was in September twenty fifth. And
on April twenty eighteen, four hunters went missing, two were recovered,
and two were still missing. So a lot of disappearances
in this area. It's probably due to how rugged and remote.

Speaker 2 (29:59):
It is so or or something more sinister.

Speaker 3 (30:05):
So really, yeah, real quickly, I'll go just high level
disappearance theories and then we can open the floor. So
law enforcement suggested it might have been intentional disappearance or
a mental health crisis. Family believed it was foul play,
and other possible scenarios that we we talked about at

(30:28):
the time was maybe a crew acute crisis leading to
you know, kind of a voluntary flight. Maybe you know,
if he had a mental health breakdown. Maybe there might
have been some kind of suicide suicidal issue, or it
could have been accident injury. He ran off and then
was injured and just was never found. Obviously, there's possible

(30:48):
possibilities of you know, animal involvement, but we deemed that
pretty unlikely, and the deep end theories was maybe homicide
by one of the crew or a third party or
kind of This one was really interesting. It's called call
of the void, so it's sometimes invoked in wilderness disappearances,

(31:10):
so it's kind of you get the it's kind of
I think at the time we talked about how you know,
sometimes when you're on a high ledge, you're not gonna
actually jump off, but that thought might just cross your
mind briefly, because it's just like a strange, strange psychological
thing that happens in people. And this also happens, I
guess in the wilderness and that they actually psychologists call

(31:32):
it call of the void. So it's a it's a
strange thing that happens to people and then really remote
situations and they kind of get this strange urge over
them to just kind of run off. So we said
that was just a very less likely theory. But I
don't know, what does everyone think?

Speaker 4 (31:52):
I have a theory? Okay, the min's out mine's kind
of out there. Yeah, I mean, I don't know if
it's how far out there, but I'm I'm thinking foul play.
So I contacted a friend of mine who's was the
special agent in charge for the BLM in that area.
This is for service, but he dealt with the same

(32:13):
kind of country in that area where all the minds
are and stuff that they had to deal with, and
he said that they had issues with you know, this
is on the BLM was where he worked, but it's
the same thing in the forest Service they have issues with,
you know, occupancy, trespassed, so like people still have mineral

(32:33):
rights to a lot of those whatever claims, mineral claims
and some of those minds, but they're not allowed to
live there. But people come in and they build their
little shanty cabins and homestead you know, and are there illegally.
So I imagine that happens a little bit in the
for Service as well. And one thought one of the

(32:53):
first things I thought it was maybe he was running
straight into almost like a you know when you run
into a Marria marijuana grow or something like that, but
not maybe not that, but something where somebody's homesteading they've
got a claim on a mine. And also I kind
of hate saying this, but that part of Idaho and
similar to the Panhandle, a lot of sovereign citizens, a

(33:16):
lot of there used to be Arian nations and they
got rid of Aerian nations or they don't not as
big anymore, but there's still a lot of that white supremacy.
And this was a young man of.

Speaker 2 (33:25):
Color, right, yeah, African American.

Speaker 1 (33:27):
Ye.

Speaker 4 (33:28):
So I don't know, so anyway, that's I just feel
like there might have been some foul play where there
was just accidentally ran into something that he saw something
he shouldn't have seen. And then, as my friend put it,
you know, he's like they these people know where all
the mines are that, you know, good place to get
rid of some situation.

Speaker 2 (33:45):
Be able to answer along those lines, if they had
groups like that in the area, would that ever show
up in a sorrow or police report as like a
potential thing or like that they say, Okay, we investigate,
looked in these areas and we stumbled across home steading situation,
or we stumbled across these people. I don't know that

(34:08):
would show up in the report or not, or if
they would just say, we searched this area and he
was not found.

Speaker 4 (34:12):
Well, if the I would think they if they interviewed somebody,
they would say, but I mean, if you're talking about
the county sheriff's office maybe being the lead law enforcement,
so it wouldn't be federal. It wouldn't be a federal
law enforcement. It would be because the jurisdiction is proprietary. So
anything that happens to a human, you know, a person,
it's the state and local that investigate. So they could

(34:35):
have said, you know, in their report, they might have said,
we interviewed so and so and so and so. I
don't know that the state and local gives a you know,
cares at all. If there are people homesteading, you know
and living there illegally, in the FORIG service would care,
But I don't know if the state local would care,
So it might not be a big thing to them.
I don't know.

Speaker 5 (34:55):
And if they have a lot of them out there,
it might just be too many for them to care about.

Speaker 2 (35:01):
Can I just leave him alone? Kind of? Yeah, the
situation like, we don't we won't bug you exactly.

Speaker 5 (35:06):
Yes, that's exactly right.

Speaker 3 (35:09):
I really like that theory. I don't think it's that
having you to explain it the way you did. I
don't think it's that much of a deep end theory.
I could picture some guy like way out off the grid,
maybe kind of a little crazy, and some random person
in the middle of the night comes running into his
you know air quotes probably yeah, easily see him getting

(35:32):
smooth and shooting him.

Speaker 2 (35:33):
Yeah, and then he's like, oh, no, what about done?

Speaker 3 (35:36):
Yeah, no one saw me do this, so let's just
clean this up and act like nothing happened.

Speaker 5 (35:42):
And like she said, she you know, they know where
all the holes are, so yeah.

Speaker 2 (35:46):
An abandoned mine perfect yup, something as terrifying to think
of if he gives accidentally stumble upon something like that,
and just yeah, I.

Speaker 3 (35:56):
Mean yeah, I mean a lot of those people are
very very territorial.

Speaker 2 (36:01):
Yes, yes, for the reason they're not integrated in society.

Speaker 4 (36:05):
Well even even you know, sovereign citizens dealing for law enforcements.
To deal with sovereign citizens, it's even hard for your
your A lot of times the only law they recognize
is from that of the sheriff. But even then they
probably don't want to deal with them either. You know,
it's probably like I don't want to deal with them, yes, exactly,

(36:27):
I know my.

Speaker 2 (36:30):
Yes spot off things that aren't right, right.

Speaker 4 (36:34):
Yeah, So anyway, that's mine. I don't know what else
you got.

Speaker 5 (36:38):
Well, you know, it could be a grow also, I
mean he could have he could have walked into a
big marijuana grow or some something like that. And they're
very protective, you know, because a lot of times their
families are back in Mexico and if they don't produce,
you know, bad things happen to their families. So you know,

(36:59):
I've been in with some of those girls, and you know,
you you rate a camp and there's you know, high
powered rifles and things like that in the camp, so
it's not far fetched to have that happen either, So
that's also a possibility. So straight, that's right.

Speaker 2 (37:18):
See, it's a little terrifying with you be you both
being former Rangers and having experience immediately jumping to oh,
it's probably.

Speaker 4 (37:25):
This, it's foul playing. We know it's foul play.

Speaker 2 (37:29):
Yeah, that's uh, that's terrifying.

Speaker 3 (37:33):
Having them described it does it makes more sense. It
makes more sense. I mean, I can definitely see to
your point. If you're running one of those operations and
your whole family's life depends on the USNE, you will
do whatever it takes to not cause any problems and
continue producing. So that that either means like getting rid

(37:57):
of this strange random person that just walked into it,
or my family dies. Like yeah, I could see why
if he stumbled upon something like especially in the middle
of the night, like probably game over.

Speaker 2 (38:09):
That's why I never bushwhack. Yeah, yeah, trails, Yes, so
I know, I like both here, I don't even remember
what I don't remember alrighty, so that was right. I
think mine was kind of went crazy and got lost,
and then that they just couldn't find him. Yeah, I mean,

(38:30):
like he fell in some sort of cavern cavernous hole
or something.

Speaker 3 (38:34):
There's still the question of what happened to him to
cause him to just sprint away from the production crew.

Speaker 5 (38:39):
Yeah, exactly right.

Speaker 2 (38:41):
I think what you were saying before was based on
his texting habits, and it's there's some mental thing going on.

Speaker 3 (38:48):
Yeah, or the crew was you know, so bad to
him that he kind of broke down and he's like,
I just got to get out of here. Maybe he
thought I'll I'll sprint down to the road and hitchhike
back in the town or something.

Speaker 2 (38:58):
I can't stand another hour are here, Yeah, and then
right into a grow yeah, or or sovereign sovereign citizen
or sovereign citizen home setting his grow he and.

Speaker 4 (39:12):
His clandestine meth lab on the side.

Speaker 2 (39:15):
Yeah exactly. I know. I think both those theories are.
I feel like if they've found that in the search,
it would be on the report.

Speaker 4 (39:23):
That's read if I heard about that, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (39:25):
Yeah, maybe like walking up and seeing off the distance, like, hey, Bob,
did we already search this area?

Speaker 5 (39:30):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (39:32):
Right, Hey, but you know what they they're there's they're
they're good at hiding those things too, so yeah, yeah,
but anyway, Yeah, I hope that someday they find they
get answers, and I hope that whatever happened wasn't so
horrific and torturing and you know to this young man.

Speaker 3 (39:51):
Yeah, that's the hardest part in the cases where there's
no remains or anything found, because the family doesn't get
any kind of closure from it. At least if mains
are found, it's kind of like, all right, sadly, we
know what happened. Yeah, so this day there's still probably
they have no clue what happened to him. I mean, yep, yeah,
So that's the hardest part for these that where they

(40:12):
just kind of vanish.

Speaker 4 (40:14):
So that was a good story, thank you.

Speaker 3 (40:17):
Yeah, that one that was one of my favorite from
back in the day because it was just so puzzling
what happened to him. It just you know, on a product,
and it was the guy that was the host of
the show is from the He's been on the other
show back in the day that I used to watch
all the.

Speaker 2 (40:32):
Time, gold Rush, Yes Channel.

Speaker 3 (40:35):
Yeah, Dave turn was the guy who was kind of
the host of this show that they were filming, and
so it was kind of kind of tied that into
it as well. So very interesting, bit nostalgic for you. Yeah,
this show is still on.

Speaker 2 (40:47):
Yeah, surprisingly all right, all right, should we go to
the next one?

Speaker 4 (40:52):
Yeah, let's do it, all right.

Speaker 2 (40:54):
I don't have to do the music on this one's
going to take us to Mountain time and Rocky Mountain
National Park. So on Wednesday, September twenty seventh and twenty
twenty three, forty nine year old trail runner Chad Planche
set out on a demanding twenty eight mile route in
Rocky Mountain National Park, intending to cross the Continental Divide

(41:15):
with stretches of off trail talus. Around noon, he texted
that he was near Mount Alice. He never checked in
later and was reported overdue on September twenty eighth. A
large multi day search and rescue operation found no confirmed clues.
Broad scale search was suspended on October tenth and twenty
twenty three. In the case remains open in limited and

(41:36):
slash continuous mode to this day. So little facts about
Rocky Mountain National Park. It is four hundred and fifteen
square miles or two hundred and sixty five thousand acres.
It was established on January twenty sixth, nineteen fifteen. It
is located in north central Colorado between EST's Park and
Grand Lake, and the Continental Divide does run through the park.

(41:59):
As of twenty twenty two, it sees about four point
three million visitors per year, updated to twenty twenty four
to four point one five million visitors, so down a
little bit and notable features around notable route features. This
was Chad's plan. Areas mentioned by NPS's possible travel quarridors
include Lake Verna, mount Alice, Chief's Head Peak, Black Lake Mills,

(42:24):
Lake Flat Top Mountain, and his vehicle was found at
the North Inlet trailhead on the west side of the park.
So some of the hazards that you'd run into there's
a very high relief, so it goes from seven eight
hundred and sixty feet to fourteen two hundred and fifty
nine feet. There are steep Talus cliff ridges, lingering snow
and ice at elevation. Trail Ridge Road tops out at

(42:45):
twelve one hundred and eighty three feet, so there's rapid
weather shifts and strong winds are common in the area.
Getting into some of the climate it's alpine slash sub
alpine mountain climate with frequent year round storms at elevation.
Our friends at the Cope and Timate classification System called
it Subarctic conditions characterized by high zones extreme snowfall events

(43:07):
that occur when cold Arctic air meets Gulf moisture along
the front range. So Mike tell us about Chad.

Speaker 3 (43:13):
Yeah, So, Chad was forty nine years old at the
time of his disappearance. He was a male five foot seven,
one hundred and fifty five pounds. He had brown hair
and blue eyes. His experience, he was a very fit,
experienced trail runner. He had done numerous Rocky Mountain National
Park routes and he's done thirty ascents of Long's Peak

(43:34):
and this was per National Park Service. And like Joe mentioned,
his planned route and gear. So it was twenty eight
miles crossing the divide with some off trail talis likely
he had a black ultra light jacket, black running shoot shorts, leggings,
gray waist pack, and he did carry a GPS, but

(43:57):
it did not have the SOS capability. Timeline, So it
starts off Wednesday, September twenty seventh of twenty twenty three,
around noon, he texts his family indicates he's near Mount Alice.

Speaker 2 (44:11):
By Thursday, September twenty eighth, he was.

Speaker 3 (44:13):
Reported overdue, and pretty quickly rangers find his vehicle at
the North Inlet trailhead on the west side. By Friday
September twenty ninth to October first, the search and rescue
operation expands. They had assets in the air, they had
ground teams on the west side and east side of
the divide around Mount Alis So again they had some

(44:40):
high winds that actually hampered the air search around that time.
By Saturday, October seventh, this would be day ten, there
were seventy seven people involved in the search, three dog teams,
they had a State drone team, and they had additional
hires imagery equipment on a helicopter, and they were kind
of doing aerial overviews of the area where they thought.

Speaker 2 (45:04):
He could be.

Speaker 3 (45:05):
But sadly, by Tuesday, October tenth, the broad scale search
was suspended. And like Joe and I always mentioned, in
a lot of cases, even though they ramped down the search,
it kind of continues in a limited mode. So from
other cases, you know, sometimes the National Park Service will
do training operations in areas where someone went missing, just

(45:26):
maybe in the chance that they find something during that.
So you know, it's in a limited continuous mode, and
like I said, the case remains open to this day.
Human remains human remains were found near the Alpine Visitors
Center in June of twenty twenty five, but they were
identified as a different individual, So that is also kind

(45:48):
of terrifying that someone else's remains were out there that
they found.

Speaker 4 (45:53):
Oh, I thought there was only two people missing, Chad
and one another who supposedly was near that area. So
that's I'd heard remains were found, but I didn't hear.

Speaker 3 (46:06):
Yeah this This individual's name was Stephen, Noto. I don't
know if that yeah, so, but they said it was
not linked to this case. So I actually have a
question for for the both of you.

Speaker 2 (46:19):
Have you ever been a part of or in service
during in an area where they've been doing training and
like found remains or found something related to a case
that went cold.

Speaker 5 (46:33):
When I worked for the Forest Service, one of my
I wasn't there unseen, but one of my employees, a hunter,
found a human skull and reported it to the Forest Service,
and that was on the in the Buffalo Wyoming area,
So they definitely did some turned it over to the

(46:53):
county sheriff and then the investigations started from there.

Speaker 2 (46:57):
So it happens, but like found out who it was or.

Speaker 5 (47:03):
You know, I can't remember for sure if they if
they found out who it was, but there was definitely
human remains that they found in that area.

Speaker 2 (47:11):
That's terrifying. I don't ever, I don't ever want to
stumble upon human remains.

Speaker 4 (47:16):
And so Nancy and I say, why haven't we found
any human remains? And we say that all the time,
like people people other people discovered and were like, well,
how come that all were done there?

Speaker 2 (47:26):
That it would be really good for the ratings of
the shows, right, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (47:33):
It'd be kind of cool to know that your discovery
might have might close a case.

Speaker 2 (47:39):
That's a better way. Yeah, that's the way I met.

Speaker 4 (47:43):
Yeah, and that's what we mean to of course.

Speaker 3 (47:47):
We all mean the good party. Yes, yes, so real quickly.
Most here's just the plausible theories. So the one that
a lot of people at the time said was the
most likely was an environmental misadventure, so navigational air slip
fall and steep talus areas, or exposure from sudden high

(48:10):
elevation weather, and this would be consistent with the route difficulty, elevations,
and timing.

Speaker 2 (48:16):
I'll just say real quick, if people aren't familiar with
tallis that's scree So it's like those really rocky parts
where it's broken up where you're sliding around every time
you're climbing out him on a ridge.

Speaker 3 (48:26):
So yes, Another possibility would be a medical event, so
sudden illness or altitude related impairment leading to a fall.
He was obviously very fit and experienced, and he had
no prior, no prior medical issues that were released, So
I mean it could have happened.

Speaker 5 (48:48):
And I gotta tell you, I got sorry. I gotta
tell you. I've talked to a ranger at Rocky Mountain
and he actually had a bear can stashed along the road,
so it was used to resupply himself while he was
doing this, And he had planned this for a long time.
He even had They found that he had videos of

(49:10):
a pre plan that he had videotaped different areas, so
he he definitely was prepared to do what he was
going to do, even though he wasn't dressed kind of
how we would be dressed, but he seemed to be
prepared to do whatever.

Speaker 2 (49:26):
And he wasn't dressed how we dressed, but he had
done the route so many times. I guess correct, you
had an idea of what his body needed to do that.
So yeah, it's very it's fair.

Speaker 3 (49:36):
Well, I guess, yeah, let's just jump right in. What
what do you two think happened to him? I guess,
And you've talked to someone that was at the park
at the time too well.

Speaker 5 (49:45):
And the person that I talked to that was actually
on the search. They you know when that when they
do kind of a hasty search, you know, right when
it happens, And this is what most national parks do,
I know we did it in Yellowstone like this, but
they send out a call for as many people as
they can get to come and help do the search.

(50:06):
And so you know, they'll have a like a climbing
ranger that is with a special agent and you and
a lot of times the climbing ranger is not law enforcement.
They're they're just there as climbing rangers, and so they're
used to that terrain and things like that. And you know,
the helicopters they had, even though not all of them
were up at the same time, but you know, they

(50:27):
had a medical ship that was flying around, you know,
if they were out and about looking military. You know,
the Sheriff's office just all kinds of trying to do
the air operations because, like you mentioned, the terrain is
it's amazing that they get anybody up there, you know,
to do those searches at all, because it is really

(50:49):
it's a strenuous thing. But but I did like what
you know, they they do have that what did you
call that where they were flying around and taking videos
of out of the helicopter. What did you call that?

Speaker 2 (51:03):
Clear? No, it's like an imaging system.

Speaker 5 (51:05):
Yes, the imaging system.

Speaker 2 (51:07):
Paul Miller case. It takes thousands of pictures. Oh that minute,
it was like a mosaic ocre then it.

Speaker 3 (51:12):
Yeah, they run it through probably AI or something, and
it looks for anything that would be out of place
from the natural environment, like a backpack or a handy wrapper.

Speaker 5 (51:21):
Or anything or maybe like a I don't know, a
broken branch or rocks that have slid. But they had
they have a team of people that that's all they
do is look at that all day long to try
and look and see just what you just said, to
see if there's anything out of the ordinary that would
lead them in a direction that they could go.

Speaker 2 (51:42):
So how often does this initial force that you go
out like end up finding the person? So like, when
this initial forces called out, do they typically run into
the individual that they're looking for relatively quickly?

Speaker 5 (51:54):
Or that's a good question and I never asked that,
But what do you think, Tara? I imagine that you know,
you don't want to hear about the cases that they
find the people.

Speaker 4 (52:04):
It's all over the place. Yeah, it just depends on
what actually happened. And like I think Nancy and I
said when we were doing the show before, but a
lot of the searches that we've been on there was
no conclusion and nobody was found, and most of them
were water. And then there's the bastard search. I'm sure
people did a bastard search, which is where you maybe

(52:25):
go back to their house, or you go to their car,
or you find their friends, and that's where they're sitting
there having a beer and eating a pizza and you're like,
you bastard. That's why it's called the bastard search. Yeah,
so that's literally why it's called bastard search. So you
got somebody doing the bastard search. You've got the people's

(52:45):
you know, heading out in full force because a lot
of times, when when did you say he was reported missing?
Or how was he reported missing?

Speaker 3 (52:53):
He was reported overdue, So he texted his family on
September twenty seventh, and he was reported overdue the next day,
and then the following day. From on Friday, September twenty
ninth is when the search and rescue mission really started
in force. And then that that went until October tenth.

Speaker 5 (53:14):
You know, on that October tenth, they you know, it's
really hard for the park Service to cut something, you know,
cut it off because you know it's uh, but this
one was weather. I mean they they got snow and
they got, you know, some weather that came in, and
you can imagine on a fourteen or in Rocky Mountain,
it's not a skiff of snow. It's a you know,

(53:36):
we're talking some feet of snow. And then that it's
just dangerous for those that are doing the search to
continue to do that. And I was told that in
that area that where he went missing, it's a seven
to nine mile hike just to get to the search area,
so you would be exhausted I would be exhausted by

(53:58):
the time you got to where you needed to start
searching for him. So I think that's why a lot
of that stuff was done by air was because it's
just it's really taxing to have people hike that much
just to get to where they're going to start the search.

Speaker 3 (54:13):
Yeah, I think you've got They had seventy seven people
out there one day. I mean that's you know, someone's
that's seventy seven people you have to make sure come
back from the search that day. Yeah, it's not just
like searching a forest here in Wisconsin, you know, flat ground, I.

Speaker 5 (54:28):
Mean, right, And they had actually where.

Speaker 2 (54:31):
There's no joke too. I remember right Long's Peak. I
couldn't summit Long's Peak because we made it up to
Keyhole and a blizzard hits and the snow was going
up because it was like the edge of the mountain
and it was literally I looked out in your keyhole
where you got to climb out on this ledge and
go around, and the snow was going up in the
air from the wind. I was like, all right, we're
not We're not doing this. I have a podcast I

(54:55):
don't want that's right, That's right.

Speaker 5 (54:58):
No, that's true. I mean I've ridden on horseback before
and it's been a white out and I had to
trust the horse to get me to the trailhead because
I had no idea, you know, where we were, and
and you know, the horse knows where the barn is,
so thank goodness on that.

Speaker 2 (55:15):
But yeah, I think so the horse can navigate without sight.

Speaker 5 (55:18):
Essentially he did because we like I said, I could
hardly see in front of the horse that it was
that bad.

Speaker 2 (55:25):
Dog Dayah too.

Speaker 3 (55:26):
I go sometimes with family up into northern Wisconsin Kraus hunting,
and we'll have either a short hair when my dad's dog,
he has a Golden Retriever. When was younger, it would
go and you could get several miles into the woods.
And we've been turned around a few times. But as
soon as you tell the dog, all right, let's go
back to the truck, they know, yeah, it will take
you back to the truck.

Speaker 2 (55:46):
Like they know it's probably you smell, I mean exactly.

Speaker 5 (55:50):
So yeah, so it's unfortunate that the weather moved in
on these guys. You know, they just had to scale
it way back, you know, to continue.

Speaker 2 (55:59):
With the type of gary running. If you get hit
with weather like that, it can be very detrimental real quick.
And it was interesting the bastard search. Because a sidebar here.

Speaker 3 (56:08):
We recently had a guy in Wisconsin who got convicted,
so he left his wife and kids.

Speaker 2 (56:15):
But the way he did it was he.

Speaker 3 (56:16):
Went kayaking on a lake about three hours north of here.
He's from the suburbs of Milwaukee, and he faked his
own disappearance. He flipped his kayak, he used another little
dinghy or something to get to shore, and he fled
to eastern Europe and eventually the federal government found him

(56:37):
and convinced him to come home, and they charged him
thirty thousand dollars for eighty nine days of searching, and
so yeah cheap, yeah.

Speaker 5 (56:46):
Yeah, yeah, it actually it does.

Speaker 3 (56:49):
But yeah, he got convicted and he has to pay
the thirty thousand dollars for the search and rescue.

Speaker 2 (56:55):
There's one more like that, and this was a few
years ago. There's a woman in Iceland in a tour group.
Have you guys heard this one where she ended up
in a search and rescue looking for herself?

Speaker 4 (57:05):
What some drunk drunk guy doing that?

Speaker 2 (57:10):
So apparently she had changed her clothing and the people
in the tour group didn't know, so they thought she
was missing. So she's with them and they're like, we're
looking for somebody wearing these clothes, and she didn't realize
that's what she was wearing. So she was a part
of her own because she realized it and found herself.

Speaker 4 (57:29):
Oh oh wow, that's a good story.

Speaker 3 (57:33):
So I guess to wrap up, Chad, do you guys
feel that he probably just slipped and had some kind
of accident and they.

Speaker 2 (57:41):
Probably won't find remains.

Speaker 4 (57:43):
Yeah, I think. Wasn't there a park ranger that the
same thing happened, went missing and they found him a
couple of years later in Rocky? I think, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (57:52):
Yeah, yeah, I think we might have covered that case.
Was he a long standing park ranger like years?

Speaker 2 (57:59):
Yeah? Yeah, I think I remember that he might.

Speaker 4 (58:02):
Have, and he was. I think he was found just
buy another hiker right eventually or.

Speaker 5 (58:10):
I can't remember who followed him, but I know he
was found.

Speaker 4 (58:13):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (58:15):
I think for me this one is he probably had
a slip or in a fall, and it's so Rocky
and just like you said, it's they can't send rangers
down every little crevice and there's just no way and
if he's obscured by you know, if he fell and
then maybe some rocks and stuff fell or snow fell

(58:37):
on top of him, then you're not going to see
him from the air when they do the aerials searching
for sure.

Speaker 2 (58:43):
I think this one was, yeah, sadly, and.

Speaker 5 (58:45):
He was in a popular area, you know. I was
told that that was a popular hiking trail that he
was on. But he did go off trail, like you said,
into the Talus, So maybe something at that point. Yeah, say, but.

Speaker 2 (59:01):
In Joe, that's the ending of our cases. Yeah, right,
this is why it's like, that's why we enter show.
We're like, and let us know what you think. All right,
let's move on to our third and final case we're
going to cover, bringing us to Sierra National Forest. On
July twenty twenty, hikers in Sierra National Forest in California

(59:25):
found an abandoned, ransacked campsite near Johnson Meadows. Days later,
multiple hikers reported a barefoot, bruised woman who refused help.
Her car was later found crashed on a remote force road.
Weeks after that, a sleeping bag believed to be hers,
turned up just inside Yosemite. A subsequent hunter siding again
described a woman matching Sandra. Despite multi agency searches, no

(59:49):
confirmed trace was ever recovered. The case remains open today,
and we're talking about the case of Sandra Johnson Hughes.
So this one takes place in Sierra National Forest, western slope,
central Sierra, Nevada and California. The sub area is Johnson Meadows,
beautiful but isolated, not typical for casual hikers. So this

(01:00:11):
is about one point three million acres. It's slightly smaller
than Delaware borders Yosemite National Park, Inyo National Forest, and
Kings Canyon National Park, as well as Sequoia National Forest.
It was established in eighteen ninety three and seas roughly
one point five one point zero five million visitors per year.

(01:00:31):
A little history of the habitation of the area. Human
presence has been there for at least thirteen thousand, five
hundred years, so Paleo Indian and the Clovis people, there's
evidence that they are there as well as later indigenous
cultures are friends at the COPE and climate classification systems
say it's a Mediterranean cool slash wet winters, warm, dry summers.

(01:00:52):
The wettest band at five thousand and six thousand feet
on west slope. Summer thunderstorms are common, rapid weather shifts
possible year round. Some little information about the terrain from
oak foothills to dense mid elevation forests and alpine high
Sierra elevations from nine hundred feet all the way up
to thirteen nine hundred feet which is Mount Humphreys, Mount

(01:01:15):
gab Bear Creek Spire and Red Slate Mountain. A little
bit about the hazards and difficulty again, weather, sudden storms, hail, lightning,
snow possible at any month at elevation, and high water
during the snow melt. Some of the wildlife you'll run
into Black Bear Mountain, lion, coyote, bobcat, foxes, rattlesnake and
other animals. And just in general there's remote roads and trails,

(01:01:39):
off trail, talus or brush navigation challenges. It's standard backcountry precautions,
so you want to be sharing your itinerary, wearing extra
layers of food, bring water, map, compass, and always cautions
while stream crossings and lightning. Lightning safety is an issue
when you're exposed, as well as the effects of altitude.
So Mike about Sandra, Yeah, So Sandra.

Speaker 3 (01:02:02):
Date of birth July twenty sixth of nineteen sixty six.
She went missing on July fourth of twenty twenty. She
was a female, age fifty four. She was five to three,
one hundred and fifty pounds, shit brown hair and it
was possibly dyed blue at the time. She had brown eyes,
so we do not have a reporting of the gear

(01:02:23):
clothing she was wearing at the time of her disappearance.
Background and experienced, so she was an accountant by trade.
She did study wilderness survival and once considered becoming a
park ranger. Personality, she was described as independent, would frequently
refuse assistance, but practical obviously she would accept help if

(01:02:43):
seriously injured. She did live kind of a nomadic lifestyle,
and she had recently moved from Maui to California. During
the research, there was no medical issues that we could find,
so assuming a pretty healthy individual timeline.

Speaker 2 (01:02:59):
So we're darning.

Speaker 3 (01:03:00):
In June twenty sixth of twenty twenty, she had told
family she was going to solo hiking camp in the
Sierra National Forest and might reach Yosemite. Like I said,
she recently moved from Maui and she sought solitude during
the pandemic on July second of twenty twenty, hikers discovered

(01:03:20):
a disheveled camp near Johnson Meadows. Gear was strewn about.
The Maderra County Sheriff's Office notify was notified and later
confirmed personal items at you know belonged to Sandra's July
fourth of twenty twenty now, so this would be the
last confirmed sighting. So she was near the Chequido Lake

(01:03:43):
trailhead in Sierra National Forests. She was barefoot, she had
a facial bruise, she had a black shirt on blue jeans,
and she declined help. Notes from the law enforcement reports
also mentioned motorists offering help after a low speed crash
and she walked away. So very interesting that a couple

(01:04:03):
different instances she could have been rescued from whatever happened
to her. It sounds like a car crash and she refused.
So it's now July fifth of twenty twenty. This is
when her vehicle was located. So she drove a silver
SOB nine to five and was found on road five
S zero four, But a family post actually mentioned it

(01:04:24):
was five S seven zero, so a little bit of
conflicting information there. It looked like a low speed impact.
According to law enforcement, no airbags deployed. The car did
roll into a ravine, but there was no reported blood.
Contents were rummaged and strewn, kind of similar to what
happened to the campsite. A note was left on the

(01:04:46):
windshield for Sandra and the area around the car was
searched but found no sign of her. By July eighth
of twenty twenty, this is when the search and rescue
operation really started to ramp up. The MCSO with a
multi agency search with county Search and Rescue teams, cal
oes and California Air National Guard for aerial searching. On

(01:05:10):
July twelfth of twenty twenty, this would be when the
sleeping bag was discovered. So a sleeping bag believed to
be Sandra's was found two point five miles north of
the car inside Yosemite near Spotted Lake, and according to
the searchers, it appeared that it was recently used. Again,
extensive searching of the area yielded no additional evidence. So

(01:05:33):
the camp site, then the car, then the sleeping bag
all kind of showed that she was moving north based
on what searchers had said in the report, so you
can kind of get a general idea that she was,
you know, kind of the rough direction she was going.
By July thirteenth of twenty twenty, the Air National Guard
now had brought in a Blackhawk to assist with the

(01:05:55):
aerial searching. Unfortunately, by July twentieth of twenty twenty, the
search is scaled back. So the search went on for
about two weeks and the case moved kind of into
an investigation limited search mode. The public was asked to
watch areas around that lake, the Chain Lakes base, and
near the Yosemite border. Now this is interesting. On August

(01:06:18):
ninth of twenty twenty, we have a hunter sighting. So
two hunters reported a woman matching Sandra along Road five
S zero one near Basore Road and Portuguese Creek, issues
thinner alone, no visible gear, and again declined contact. When
law enforcement heard this, they mobilized and did a search

(01:06:38):
of the area, but again they did not find anything.
So very very bizarre, and by late twenty twenty, unfortunately,
there was the Creek fire and pretty much a lot
of the area that was searched initially was burned in
the creek fire. Any chance of kind of going back

(01:07:03):
out there and doing more searches was kind of that
possibility was over due to the fire, unfortunately.

Speaker 2 (01:07:10):
But then on.

Speaker 3 (01:07:10):
July twenty first of twenty twenty one, there was this
reported Spooky Meadow incident. So family on an outing near
a shut Eye Peak, which is five miles south of
Johnson Meadows, reported their child describing a woman in a
black shirt with blue hair needing help. Deputies escorted the

(01:07:32):
family to the site and again after searching the area,
no tracks or evidence were found, and to this day
the case remains open. So this is a very very
strange case. So real quick theories and then we'll open
the floor. So law enforcements found no evidence of serious

(01:07:52):
injury was detected during the search, and given her wilderness skills,
they assumed she could be alive and continued searching accordingly,
which was later scaled back other plausible scenarios. So obviously
we could have had injury, a head injury from the
vehicle crash could have caused her mental state to be changed.
Intentional avoidance. Maybe she was avoiding contact it kind of

(01:08:16):
you know, how she kept declining assistance kind of maybe
could lead to that theory. She could have been deciding
to voluntarily long term live in the backcountry she was
described as nomadic. Again, this goes back to what you
guys were talking about in the first case encounter with
illegal activity. So maybe stumbling upon a grow operation, obviously

(01:08:37):
lost or misadventure, and maybe she had an undiagnosed mental
health condition and it maybe the car crash caused something
to snap and that led her to kind of wander
off into the wilderness. But very bizarre case. And multiple
times she could have been rescued by people, and she

(01:08:58):
looked like she was in distress, bruised face, kind of
looked lost and declined, and over multiple weeks she was
seen at different times, So very interesting. What are your
theories with this one?

Speaker 4 (01:09:13):
I don't feel like there was foul play in my
thoughts are like I just I don't feel like there
was foul play. The fact that she's last heard from
her last scene on what July for that's a crash,
Then all these other things happened and continued to happened,
and then all the way into when the hunters said

(01:09:34):
they ran into her. But you're gonna think I'm crazy
when I say this, It's okay. Fast forward into the
spooky incident where the boy saw and I don't I
really don't. You know, you can't say that she was
deceased from now, but I thought I wonder if those hunters,
I'd like to hear more about what the hunter said.

(01:09:56):
Did they actually have a conversation with her? Was it
from a distance, like, Hey, what's that I'm in doing there?
Walking barefoot with bruising, really skinny or what that was?
Because you know, I almost feel like maybe that was
a spooky situation as well. Yeah, maybe you know what
the little boy saw, they also saw. I know that

(01:10:17):
sounds crazy. I'm just I'm open here. I'm just open.

Speaker 2 (01:10:21):
Yeah, I know, but I just I.

Speaker 4 (01:10:25):
Feel like maybe at some point head injury slash. I mean,
she had bruises on her, then there was some injury.
And if she had head injury, then she could have
been acting I wrong. And I did read somewhere that
maybe some of the items you said she had was
a birth certificate and some a social Security number was
with her, like physical did you I don't know if

(01:10:47):
you read that.

Speaker 2 (01:10:48):
Laston, but that might be possible.

Speaker 3 (01:10:49):
I didn't have that in the summary of this, but yeah,
that could have been possible.

Speaker 4 (01:10:55):
I was on an incident where there was a deceased person,
and he had his birth certificate with him, Social Security,
he had papers that said he was in the military,
and he you know, unlived himself. As they say on
another podcasts, I guess or they it's believed that he

(01:11:15):
purposely died of exposure because he just sat down in
the snow. We first found We found him by seeing
jo a human jaw bone, and we skied around until
we actually found the rest of him. But this is
in the winter, so it just I thought that was
strange that her belongings were. But if she was just
being nomadic, you'd think that would be in the car.

(01:11:36):
But maybe if she crashed the car and see him
really going off, if she crashed the car, she probably
go i't want to leave my birth certificate and everything
there for somebody to find. So maybe there was nothing
to that. But that just seemed odd to me that
that might have been in her.

Speaker 5 (01:11:49):
And also she could have you know, if she was
got in that car accident and hit her head, you know,
she definitely could have been altered mental, you know, at
that point, and it could have something medical. I had
one at Mount Rushmore where a guy was living in
a small cave withinside the park or just outside the
boundary of the park. And you know when we found

(01:12:11):
his body, there was pill bottles. They were empty. They
were cardiac drugs and it was just an empty pill bottle,
so could identify who the man was. And you know,
you went with that assumption that he had a heart attack.
He ran out of his medication and he had a
heart attack. So something medical could have happened to her.
And if she did die, then she could have got

(01:12:34):
burned over, you know, in the fire, because you can't
outrun a forest fire, so it's you know, if she
was in that area, she could have got trapped in
that also.

Speaker 3 (01:12:44):
Yeah, that was the That was also the weird thing
about this case is that the creek fire happened and
pretty much burned. Maybe any evidence that might have been
out there of her disappeared rice is most likely gone now.

Speaker 2 (01:12:57):
Right, So my opinion is kind of what you just said.
I feel like that accident may have not been a
large one. But if she had bruises, did it say
if it was like on her head or where she
was bruised, and it was a slow interface, Yeah, on
her face. So at going along, going along, you can
get a concussion still and some of the I looked

(01:13:17):
it up now because I remember doing it. Then some
of the things that can occur with a concussion. You
can have disorientation, amnesia, difficulty concentrated, slow thinking, memory issues,
feeling days are foggy, emotional changes. You can have mood
swings and irritability. So if you have somebody who has
survival instinct in nature is nomadic hitting your head and

(01:13:38):
this is i'd say, like a perfect storm situation, but
you get into this mode where you just kind of
go in your default and maybe she just went off
in the woods knowing, oh, I know, to survive out here,
not rationally because you're injured. And then if you're running
into people and you're having those mood swings, you're irritable
because you're malnourished, you have this injury, you're just not

(01:13:58):
going to be acting yourself. And she's just kind of,
you know, weaved her way through all these interactions into
the woods and then eventually died of exposure, yeah, or
brain bleed.

Speaker 5 (01:14:08):
I mean, I'm just gonna say that too little.

Speaker 4 (01:14:10):
A slow brain bleed or something.

Speaker 2 (01:14:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:14:13):
Yeah, But and then I can see why because of
the fire and scavengers, black bear wolves not wolves there,
but coyoats or whatever they have. But I mean they
can deal with that in pretty short order. And then
maybe her clothing and other items. But but yeah, again,
I do feel like maybe the hunters did not really
see what they thought they saw.

Speaker 3 (01:14:32):
That's and the little boy. That would have been a
whole year of her living out there. You're right, right,
like minimum here and.

Speaker 2 (01:14:39):
Food, yeah, very highly unlikely through the winter. Yeah, it
is probably pods survival super low.

Speaker 4 (01:14:47):
Yeah right, yeah. And he described her as having blue
hair and whatever, described her clothes and said, I think
I read that her her legs were up in the air.
That didn't that was whatever the boy described, which didn't
make any sense, but a very ghosts ghost what I'm
saying it was the description. He was three years old.

Speaker 2 (01:15:09):
Yeah, that's yeah, the age where you don't really have
a reasonable lie.

Speaker 5 (01:15:13):
Yeah right, yeah, make up exactly, that's right.

Speaker 2 (01:15:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:15:19):
Yeah, that was such a interesting When I first mean,
y'all gave that story test to look at, I'm like, okay,
that story right there. It was so interesting to me.
And I did call somebody from Yosemite two nights ago,
and they didn't have much to add because it was
barely just I think the sleeping bag was in the park,
so Yosemite wasn't involved, you know as much as the

(01:15:41):
the other local folks were.

Speaker 3 (01:15:43):
Yeah, no, yeah, very I mean, and it's this case
is one of hundreds kind of similar with very just
every case has just weird aspects where Joe and I
will be talking a theory and we think we have
one theory down, but then there's like one or two
data points in the case that don't make sense. Yeah,

(01:16:04):
it can't really need that theory, And then you're like, well,
maybe it's this theory.

Speaker 2 (01:16:08):
That's why the joke is like they're always missing it's
obviously the same thing. But yeah, there's always just this
like weirdness to each one that they are so different
in their own right, Yeah, right, that's just you can't
and there's so many variables out in I mean, you've
managed parks and worked on they're huge. There's so huge
people can hide drug operations in them and almost never

(01:16:30):
be found. Like yeah, so there's so many variables that
go in here, you really can't imagine, like fully what
could have happened. And that's I think what's so fascinating
about a lot of these cases is your imagination has
to do most of the work. Now.

Speaker 3 (01:16:44):
And the counterpoint, because we say this sometimes too. Millions
upon millions of people go hiking in all the parks
and come out safe.

Speaker 2 (01:16:53):
So do they? That's right?

Speaker 3 (01:16:56):
So, and I think it might have been one of
you on one of the other the other episode we did.
The vast majority of people that go missing are found
within a couple hours, just someone that went.

Speaker 2 (01:17:09):
Down the wrong trail or something. Correct.

Speaker 3 (01:17:12):
Yeah, so these are very rare based on the millions
of people that go But yeah, but when they do,
happy that they're so bizarre and interesting.

Speaker 4 (01:17:22):
Yeah, yeah, definitely bear sharing these stories for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:17:28):
Yeah. Well that's kind of what we do on our show.
That's awesome that and then after we just kind of
are awkwardly sharing each other, like hey, it's kind of
slowly turned. I just slowly start doing this and we
just kind of fade out so that we Well.

Speaker 4 (01:17:46):
I was going to say, so where can people Okay,
most people you know locations and known, but what are
all the socials at your own like where can people
find you and follow you? And how do they support you?

Speaker 2 (01:17:57):
Well, the most important would be our LinkedIn page. Yeah,
absolutely not. LinkedIn is a weird place.

Speaker 4 (01:18:05):
We don't do that.

Speaker 2 (01:18:07):
No, you don't need to do that. I've built a
LinkedIn page for the podcast more as like, I thought
it'd be funny to constantly say, our Troop podcast is
a LinkedIn page. Yeah, I don't even I don't even
update it in a long time.

Speaker 3 (01:18:21):
No, we're on all of them. We're on a Facebook, Instagram.
Joe is our resident TikTok editor, so.

Speaker 2 (01:18:30):
I haven't done any of it in a while yet.

Speaker 3 (01:18:32):
We have a YouTube channel where we post the video versions.
So those are the main places you can find us.
We do have a website, well technically we have two
right now. We have our old website locations unknown dot org.

Speaker 2 (01:18:45):
Did we buy the dot com yet? Yeah, we have it,
so we have we have the dot com now, see
how caught up I am. Yes, I'm so used to
the dot org for years. We finally bought the dot com.

Speaker 3 (01:18:57):
Yeah, we someone a company was like squatting on it
and wouldn't They wanted a lot of money for it,
and we eventually convinced him.

Speaker 2 (01:19:07):
Warm that's right, Wow, warmed down like five bucks at
a time per year.

Speaker 3 (01:19:13):
I had a reminder set up in my email to
email the guy every year at the same time, and
asked me if we wanted to sell it. I said,
we have all the other social media everything around it.
No one's going to ever want to buy this other than.

Speaker 6 (01:19:24):
Us, right right.

Speaker 4 (01:19:26):
Yeah, Well, thank you, very very very much. We really
appreciate it. I'd love to do it again sometime. I
think it'd be great.

Speaker 2 (01:19:33):
So we're going to have you back on our show
we had. We had so much fun in the live
show that we had to do the.

Speaker 3 (01:19:41):
Same thing but with cases you guys covered, because you
guys do completely different type of cases too much.

Speaker 2 (01:19:47):
Would be really interesting to hear.

Speaker 4 (01:19:50):
Yeah, we're happy to do it. Also, Hey, can I
just say right quick Halloween. I don't know what you
guys do Halloween. We are going to be doing a
live show in Yellowstone at Mammoth Hotel. So if you
have nothing else to do Halloween, come come to Yellowstone
National Park. If we can figure out how to live
stream it, will live stream it. But we've got a

(01:20:10):
really true crimey and spooky story that we're going to
be sharing. Anyway, it's going to be it's gonna be
a fun time. In Yellowstone Mammoth Hot Springs.

Speaker 2 (01:20:20):
Excellent, we'll try it. I work with you off air
to try and figure out how to get you to
live stream. No, how about that?

Speaker 5 (01:20:26):
Yes, oh yes, definitely.

Speaker 2 (01:20:28):
I mean you are part of our network.

Speaker 4 (01:20:30):
Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 3 (01:20:32):
I think we could easily help you both to get
that live stream.

Speaker 2 (01:20:36):
I think that'd be really cool to live stream. Yeah,
absolutely good.

Speaker 4 (01:20:38):
Thank you. You guys are like our daddies, Like you're
somehow I don't know how that would work out, but
you're our daddy figures or something.

Speaker 2 (01:20:45):
I guess.

Speaker 3 (01:20:48):
Okay, I would love to come out to Yellowstone, but
I think this is the first year we're taking clear
trick or treating, so it would look bad if I
missed that.

Speaker 2 (01:20:58):
And my my sister's getting married on Halloween. Oh my gosh,
so fun. Oh she miss a lot of fun. Yeah,
absolutely so otherwise when it came out.

Speaker 3 (01:21:09):
But yeah, it would come out if I I didn't
have to go trick or treating.

Speaker 4 (01:21:17):
Well, they're going to have trigger treating there too as well.
They're going to decorate.

Speaker 2 (01:21:20):
All have them. Mike.

Speaker 4 (01:21:23):
That's right, that's right, Mike, All right, Okay, everybody will
stay safe in wild places. And watch out for the
company you keep.

Speaker 5 (01:21:31):
And if you see something, say something.

Speaker 4 (01:21:33):
I know you guys have a tagline Oh Joe, you
do it.

Speaker 2 (01:21:37):
I always remember to leave no trace.

Speaker 4 (01:21:39):
Yeah all right, Hey, thanks so much, Thanks guys,

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