Lost Hunter: Ronald Gray's disappearance in Idaho's Bitterroot Wilderness

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Thousands of people have mysteriously vanished in America's wilderness. Join
us as we dive into the deep end of the
unexplainable and try to piece together what happened.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
If you are listening to Locations Unknown, ooh, what's up everybody?

(00:56):
And welcome back to another episode of Locations Unknown. I'm
I'm your co host Joe E. Rodalin with me, as
always is the guy who coined the term. Coined the term,
so we coined the term, Mike vander Bogart.

Speaker 3 (01:07):
Thank you, Joe, and thank you once again to all
of our listeners for tuning in. Just a couple of
announcements before we go in here new Patreon shoutouts to
Jamie Drexler, Amelia have Hercamp, and Carrie Tuched Think I
got that? Sure, Sure, we don't know. But thank you
for supporting the show.

Speaker 2 (01:27):
Yes, thank you very much.

Speaker 4 (01:29):
We greatly appreciate it.

Speaker 3 (01:31):
If you want to call the show or send the
show a text, I've been texting back and forth with
I still gotta share all this with you after the show,
I'll share it. I have like one hundred pictures now
of a individual who claims to be the son of
Glenn hyde, Oh.

Speaker 2 (01:49):
We should maybe bring that. We will bring that to
the live stream. Yeah, maybe we can talk through the
whole thing.

Speaker 4 (01:55):
You don't know that I have permission to share any
of it yet.

Speaker 2 (01:57):
Well, and if we'll figure it out. But yeah, we'll
figure it out.

Speaker 4 (02:00):
But very interesting.

Speaker 3 (02:02):
The more and more pictures I see, the more I'm
convinced he's telling you the truth.

Speaker 2 (02:06):
So he's brought receipts, Yeah, I guess, I guess partial.

Speaker 3 (02:10):
I'm seeing some like official documents or something. But right on,
I don't think I said the number. You can call
two eight three nine six three or text the show.

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Two zero eight three nine one six nine one three
call leave a message Texas, because when we do our
live shoot, we're going to go through all of them. Yes,
funny stuff, uh, serious stuff, whatever, you just want to like. Uh,
there's these girls who always call them sing us songs. Yeah,
which isn't They're really hilarious.

Speaker 3 (02:37):
Yeah, and we'll we'll open it up live on the
show too, So that could be dangerous.

Speaker 4 (02:41):
Yeah, we tested that at work. It works, oh man, so.

Speaker 2 (02:45):
Think if your downfall.

Speaker 4 (02:46):
Yeah, and we got to get ahold Evan put that
right that on the table.

Speaker 2 (02:49):
All right, yeah, I got the sharpie here call Evan.

Speaker 4 (02:55):
All right.

Speaker 3 (02:56):
If you want to check out any of the other
podcasts on our network, We've got Peanut and Mountain Podcast,
Off the Trails, The Weirdos We Know who runs this park,
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(03:17):
and what else.

Speaker 2 (03:19):
I have the update h and Markowski, one of our fans,
let us know that I've been using this the word
swag incorrectly since we started saying it. Apparently, when do.

Speaker 4 (03:31):
You say it?

Speaker 2 (03:31):
I don't even at the end, But if you want
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apparently it's supposed to mean like just everyone gets it,
Like that's why you get a swag bag. So this
how slow I am? I just use terms sometimes, I'm like, oh,
everyone calls the swag Okay, Now, I don't ever care

(03:52):
to look into the etymology of the word.

Speaker 3 (03:54):
When you join our Patreon channel, you to get a
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Speaker 4 (03:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:00):
So yeah. Yeah, but that's why I gets. I gotta change.
I just got a change to merch that's merchandise. Yeah,
so I got I got learned today, right, you got
what about that? Yeah? All right, everybody, let's gear up
and get out to explore locations unknown. September twenty third,

(04:34):
two thousand and eight, a Marine Corps veteran and retired
Massachusetts State Police captain was on an elk hunt with
friends in the Selway Bitterroot area of the Nez Pierce
National Forest. He decided to stay a few extra days
alone after his friends left. The plan was to meet

(04:54):
back with his friends a few days later. However, when
he never arrived, authorities were notified and the search began.
Join us this week as we investigate the curious case
of Ronald Scott Gray. All right, so we are going

(05:26):
to the Nez Pierce Clearwater Nest Forest.

Speaker 4 (05:29):
Pert. I believe it's called Purse. That's purse, and his
official missing day was the nineteenth.

Speaker 2 (05:34):
At the twenty third, it is all okay, I'm sorry,
that's okay, Well rerecord it now, we won't. The Selway
Bitterroot Wilderness is a one point three million acre area
in north central Idaho and Western Montana, including the bitter
Root Mountain Range, so this does take place in the
north central Idahoa and Western Montana. Region was established in

(05:57):
nineteen eight and sees roughly five hundred fifty thousand visitors
per year, so not heavily trafficked no compared to its
counterparts in the area some habitation history of the area.
Archaeological evidence indicates that indigenous peoples have occupied this region
for over eight thousand years, notably sites inside the Weiss

(06:19):
Rock Shelter, located approximately thirteen kilometers south of Cottonwood, Idaho,
which has yielded artifacts dating back to this period. Another
significant site is the Sully situated about forty kilometers east
of Lewiston, Idaho. Additionally, and Buffalo Eddy Site, approximately thirty
kilometers south of Lewiston, features petrographs petroglyphs estimated to be

(06:44):
from around twenty five hundred BC. The Nez Piers Nez
Perce people or Nimipoo have been the primary inhabitants of
the area, with the traditional territory encompassing parts of present
day Idaho, Oregon, and Washington. Their lands include the river
valleys of the Snake, Salmon and clearwater rivers, extending eastward

(07:05):
to the Bitterroot Mountains. By the early nineteenth century, the
nez Perce had established over one hundred permanent settlements, with
populations ranging from fifty to six hundred individuals per village.
They engaged in fishing, hunting, and gathering, and were known
for their expertise in horse breeding, particularly the Apalousa breed.

(07:25):
The mid nineteenth century brought increased tensions as white settlers
encroached on nez Perse lands, especially following the discovery of
gold in the region. In eighteen fifty five, the nez
Perse signed a treaty seating approximately seven point five million
acres of their territory in exchange for monetary compensation and
infrastructure development. However, the U s government failed to honour

(07:48):
the treaty's terms, leading to the further reduction of the
nez Perse lands in eighteen sixty three. These actions contributed
to the Nez Perce War of eighteen seventy seven, during
which several bands, included Chief Joseph's, were driven from their homeland.
In the early twentieth century, the US government designated large
portions of this region as National forest to manage and
conserve the area's natural resources. The Nez Perce National Force

(08:12):
and Clearwater National Forests were both established on July first,
nineteen oh eight. In twenty twelve, these two forests were
administratively combined to form the Nez Perce Clearwater National Forests,
encompassing much of the traditional nez Perse territory. So here
are some interesting facts about Idaho. Did you know that
Idaha has a sea port? The port of Lewiston is

(08:35):
the farthest inland port on the West coast US. It
is five hundred or four hundred and sixty five miles
upriver from the Pacific Ocean.

Speaker 4 (08:43):
Did not know that?

Speaker 2 (08:44):
Did not know that either. In nineteen twenty eight, Idaho
was the first state to feature a graphic on a
license plate. It was the Idaho Potato. First license ped
graphic was a potato That's awesome. Idaho is called the
gem state because almost every gem had has been found
in Idaho at one point. I don't understand that one

(09:05):
like every gem. Ever, like every type of gem, oh,
every type of gem. That makes a lot more sense.
Nearly eighty five percent of all commercial trout sold in
the US is produced in the Hagerman valley. That's really cool.
It's a lot of trout.

Speaker 4 (09:20):
It is.

Speaker 2 (09:22):
Sixty three percent of Idaho is public land. Sorry about that,
too many kids. Your immune system will catch up in
about five years. Sunday, the deepest river gorge in North
America is Idaho's Hell's Canyon at seven nine hundred feet deep.

Speaker 4 (09:40):
I think we covered a case Hell's Canyon.

Speaker 2 (09:43):
Yes we did. Oh, we got windows shares. What's going
on here?

Speaker 1 (09:46):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (09:46):
Oh, they're running away. We got mooned, like legitimately, legit Okay,
that would have been way more upset if we legitimately
got moved in the window. I'll talk a little bit
about the climate. The climate in this part of Idoh's
high country is continental and strongly influenced by elevation. By
late September and October, autumn has set in, with rapidly

(10:06):
cooling temperatures in the lower elevations near Wilderness. September days
average around sixty five to seventy five degrees fahrenheit or
eighteen to eighteen to twenty one degrees celsius, with nights
dipping to the low forties or four to five degrees celsius.
We are asked by an Australian listener. If we could
throw back inh we do were kilometers and things, so
we start to have all those listeners overseas. By October,

(10:31):
average highs drop to lows and fifties eleven degrees celsius
and nighttime lows however around thirty thirty two, so about
freezing or zero degree celsius. Higher elevations experience even colder conditions.
Ridges above six thousand feet often see frost at night
even in early September, and daytime temperature is much cooler
than the valleys. Early falls relatively dry in the region,

(10:54):
but moisture begins to increase going into October. On average,
September brings about one point one inches or twenty eight
millimeters of total precipitation in the Elk City area, whereas
October doubles that tun around two point three inches or
fifty eight millimeters. Much of September's weather is clear and crisp,
but by late September, the first Pacific storm system can

(11:16):
reach Idaho, bringing chili rain at lower elevations and snow
at higher elevations. Snowfall becomes a concern by the end
of September and throughout October. It is also not uncommon
for higher terrain in the Selway bitter Root to receive
an early dusting of snow in late September, with more
significant snow possible in October. In fact, during the search

(11:36):
for Gray in early fall two thousand and eight, authorities
noted that snow could hit the Nez Perce National Forest today.
Perhaps one of the most critical factors is how quickly
weather can change in the area. The Cellway bitter Root
is known for mountain microclimates. A sunny, sixty degree afternoon
can give way to a cold, wet evening and temperatures

(11:57):
plunging towards freezing in front in a front. As a
front moves in conditions in deep canyons, they can trap
warm air. It might differ markedly from the exposed peaks,
which can be buffered by cold, buffeted by cold winds
and gather storm clouds. Sudden thunderstorms or cold rain squalls

(12:18):
are possible in early fall and later in the season.
Even in mid morning can turn into a snowstorm snowstorm
by night. So it sounds like it's just crazy rapidly
changing weather out there.

Speaker 1 (12:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (12:31):
Search and rescue accounts emphasize that fall weather in Idah
backcountry is unpredictable, noting instances of mild days that turn
a snow overnight. So a little bit about the terrain.
The region is characterized by rough, jagged peaks and deep
forested canyons, a glaciated terrain of rigid and towering mountains
dropping into steep valley corridors. So it sounds super aggressive,

(12:53):
which means it's probably beautiful. Elevations rains from around oney
seven hundred feet in the lowest river valley to over
ten thousand feet at the highest Summits. Trapper Peak on
the Montana side reaches ten and fifty seven feet. So
major waterways originated here. Both the Loksha River and the
Selway River begin in these mountains and flow westward to

(13:15):
meet Lowell, Idaho. The wild and scenic Selway River cuts
a forty seven mile course through the heart of the wilderness.
It's canyons so remote that access is limited to a
single permitted raft launch per day. That's crazy.

Speaker 4 (13:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (13:33):
Dense coniferous forests blanket the slopes, intersparse with alpine meadow
and granite outcrops, making for a landscape that is beautiful
as it is challenging to traverse. So some of the
dangers you're going to see out here are elk, black bear,
mountain lions, gray wolves, which were reintroduced in the nineties.
Grizzly bears once inhabited the region but have been gone

(13:54):
for many decades. However, this area has been identified as
a prime habitat for the reintroduction of grizzly bears in
the future. While the area where Gray went missing is
characterized by very rugged and mountainous trains, searches described it
as vertical rocks and trees like nothing I've ever seen.
It overwhelms you, referring to the difficulty of traversing the wilderness.

(14:18):
So that sounds pretty ridiculous for search and rescue to say, like, ah,
this is the worst, this is the worst. Yes, weather
and exposure can be issued, so the terrain hazards alone
are bad. And then again, nights in October routinely drop
below freezing, so injured people, sick people cannot move and
find shelter and have a high risk for hypothermia. Sudden

(14:39):
snow or fog can drastically reduce visibility and bury tracks,
thwarting both navigation and search efforts, so there are no
roads or settlements inside the wilderness, so access is by foot, horseback,
or occasionally small aircraft. There's a couple of grass airstrips
that exists in other parts of wilderness, but none near
where Gray was. The nearest trailheads or primitive roads are

(15:03):
many miles away, and those are accessible only via long
gravel routes from small towns like Elk City or Lowell,
so the Sellway Bitterroot Wilderness is notorious for its faint
and rugged trails. Many trails see very light use in
minimal maintenance. Years of wildfire activity have caused blowdowns and
erase sections of the trail, and vegetation can grow over

(15:25):
old paths. A backpacking guide describes the areas so remote
the most of the trails are in poor condition. They
will be hard to follow at times. Hikers frequently encounter
trails that disappear into fallen logs with thick brush. Topographic
maps show some trails that on the ground are nearly invisible.
In some areas, there are simply no trails at all
for many miles. It's truly wilderness in every sense.

Speaker 4 (15:48):
Sounds pretty cool.

Speaker 2 (15:49):
That sounds actually like exactly what I would like to
go camp in. Yes, so one outdoor has been familiar
with the region said, the Sellway Bitterroot is a maze
of pine robed mountains, ranges, and untrailed cans, essentially one
hundred miles of solid nothing in terms of human presence
or infrastructure geez. So the psychological aspect of navigation here

(16:09):
is also significant. Hikers often report that in the Sellway
better route distances feel much farther than expected. The land
is so broken and vertical that traveling even a mile
off trail can be exhausting and slow. It's it's easy
to become exhausted and injured, which then makes navigation airs
more likely. Furthermore, the remoteness means there are no obvious

(16:30):
backstops like roads or towns to eventually stumble into. The
wilderness goes on and on. A lost person can travel
for days and not find a road. Getting out usually
requires retracing one steps or correctly navigating tens of miles
to the wilderness boundary, a daunting task if your turnaround
or your maps are lost. Unfortunately, the history of this

(16:51):
wilderness includes numerous cases of people becoming lost or stranded,
so after that, I think that, like, I think that,
like severely beat into our skulls how remote and crazy
this place is. Let's learn about Ronald.

Speaker 3 (17:02):
Yeah, I wanted to make sure to really emphasize how
remote this section of the country.

Speaker 2 (17:08):
Is, and I think you succeeded.

Speaker 4 (17:10):
Yeah, where Ronald was.

Speaker 3 (17:11):
So the name of our subject today is Ronald Scott Gray.
He was born July sixteenth of nineteen seventy six. He
went missing September nineteenth of two thousand and eight. His
remains have not been found. He was a male, age
sixty two. Joe's pulling up some maps of this place.

(17:34):
It is crazy looking.

Speaker 2 (17:36):
I'm not there yet. Don't say that I didn't share
anything yet.

Speaker 3 (17:39):
Sorry, I was just taking some water hoping it was
on the screen. He was sixty two at the time
of his disappearance. He was five ten, two hundred pounds,
gray hair, brown eyes. He had some notable features, including
a scar on his left leg, and he was missing
middle finger on his left hand. Clothing or gear he

(18:01):
was last seen in so this guy was very well
prepared for his hiking or hunting trip. So he was
last scene wearing camouflage pattern hunting clothes appropriate for elk hunting,
and he was dressed for the outdoors and prepared to
blend into the woodland trains. So while he was very
prepared for being out there and for elk hunting, not

(18:24):
very good attire for being found by search and rescue.
So he pretty much blended in with the surroundings. So
it'd be very hard for you to see that from
the air. He was equipped for an extended stay, and
he packed.

Speaker 4 (18:42):
Like Joe and I do. He had an estimated one
hundred pounds of gear.

Speaker 2 (18:47):
Oh wow. So well it was for an elk cunt too,
so I'm sure a lot of that could ammunition, knives,
things that are.

Speaker 4 (18:53):
Like take up a lot of weight weight.

Speaker 2 (18:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (18:56):
So he had a large backpack with one hundred pounds
of gear, contained supplies, and he had both hunting and fishing.

Speaker 4 (19:03):
Gear with him.

Speaker 3 (19:04):
He was also known to be armed, carrying hunting weapons
and had survival tools such as fire starting equipment. He
also carried navigation and communication devices, reportedly had multiple GPS
device units, and he had a solar powered to a radio,

(19:25):
though such electronics can be unreliable this deep in the wilderness.
He also made use of pre placed outfitter supply cases
in the area to resupply during his hunt. So this
might be one of the most well prepared people we've

(19:46):
discussed on the show.

Speaker 2 (19:47):
So like he set the cashes up, like filled them
with or they're.

Speaker 3 (19:50):
Just existing one outfitters put them out there for the
hunters in case they need to use them.

Speaker 4 (19:56):
Cashes are cases cash cash.

Speaker 2 (19:58):
Yeah, okay, I wasn't gonna call you up, but call
me out it's cash cash.

Speaker 3 (20:09):
So in fact, searchers later found one of Gray's backpacks
at an outfitter campsite near high Line Lake, which is
about five thousand feet of elevation, containing his journals detailing
his gear, vitamins, and other personal items. This suggested that
he had visited the cash and left the pack intending

(20:31):
to return for it. So very well prepared. This is,
like I said, the most prepared. I think we've ever
most prepared person we've ever covered on the show up
to this point. So personality of Ron. He friends described
him as someone who is very direct and honest, yet

(20:53):
easy to get along with. He's not politically correct, tells
you what he thinks, and he likes every He said
a longtime friend this kind of sounds like a typical
marine veteran, veteran of law enforcement.

Speaker 4 (21:09):
Kind of a nice guy, but you know, blunt and
to the point. Yes, as far.

Speaker 3 (21:16):
As medical issues issues go, he was reportedly in good
health at the time of his disappearance at sixty two.
He was physically fit for his age. He had no
known chronic illnesses that might have contributed to the incident,
and from everything I could find during my research, friends
and officials did not cite any medical condition like heart

(21:39):
problems or diabetes that could have caused him to become incapacitated.
So for his age, a very healthy man. So nothing
on the medical front gives me pause. Occupation hobby. So
Ron was a dedicated much of his life to service.

(22:02):
He was a retired US Marine and a Vietnam War veteran.
I need to look something up here.

Speaker 4 (22:13):
What did you say?

Speaker 3 (22:15):
Well, so in my character profile I had a date
of birth of nineteen seventy six, which is obviously not
right if he was a Vietnam veteran. So I'm gonna
quick because I am curious. Now we're gonna pause the

(22:35):
show we'll record.

Speaker 2 (22:37):
Over this noon.

Speaker 3 (22:41):
I must have typed that wrong, but there is no
way he was born in nineteen Ah, there we go,
typed it wrong, born in nineteen forty six.

Speaker 2 (22:54):
There you go.

Speaker 4 (22:55):
Okay, TYPEO.

Speaker 2 (22:59):
Just causes like ten followers for getting it right. Yep, no,
getting it wrong.

Speaker 4 (23:03):
Initially it is all my fault.

Speaker 3 (23:07):
Well, hey, when I read he was a Marine Vietnam veteran,
I'm like, well, that's interesting. He was born a year
after the Vietnam War ended, so how could that be so?

Speaker 2 (23:19):
All right?

Speaker 3 (23:20):
He was born in nineteen forty six, people, not seventy six,
And yeah, he was a Marine Vietnam War veteran. Served
two tours in Vietnam with the first Battalion, ninth Marines,
or the famed Walking Dead Unit. During his military service,
he was noted for bravery. Members of his unit were

(23:42):
known for their commitment and refusal to quit the fight.
After the Marines, Gray embarked on a long law enforcement career.
He served with the Massachusetts State Police for thirty five years,
eventually retiring at the rank of State Police Captain. Earlier
in his law enforcement career, he had been an officer
with the Metropolitan District Commissioned Police, working as a canine

(24:07):
handler and patrolling wilderness areas like the Cobbin Reservoir in Massachusetts.

Speaker 4 (24:16):
Excuse me.

Speaker 3 (24:18):
Colleagues described him as a highly competent and top notch officer.
He was well respected in law enforcement circles. Even the
Massachusetts Lieutenant governor reached out to Idaho officials during the search,
underscoring how valued Gray was to his friends.

Speaker 4 (24:35):
Experience in the wilderness.

Speaker 3 (24:36):
So given his background, Gray had extensive wilderness survival training.
As a marine combat veteran, he would have been trained
in survival, land navigation, and endurance under harsh conditions, and
even the Idaho County Sheriff's office was aware of his
extensive survival training and took that into account during their search.

Speaker 2 (25:00):
Like look at all this, Yeah, there's it is just
nothing and it's super aggressive mountains.

Speaker 4 (25:05):
Yeah, it's just yeah.

Speaker 2 (25:07):
You just go forever and there's no roads. There's there's
literally nothing. Yeah, here's here's like the line of towns
right here. But that's it.

Speaker 4 (25:16):
This is another area.

Speaker 3 (25:18):
Like when I'm I was thinking back of all the
hiking trips we've done, we never even probably don't even know.

Speaker 4 (25:23):
Of this place.

Speaker 2 (25:24):
It's like a corridor of small towns. And then to
the left, just love this, I.

Speaker 4 (25:30):
Mean that would be true backcountry hiking.

Speaker 2 (25:33):
Yeah, there's nothing.

Speaker 4 (25:35):
Yeah, that's wild.

Speaker 2 (25:39):
There's so much like land.

Speaker 4 (25:44):
It's good to have land. So yeah.

Speaker 3 (25:48):
Beyond his formal training, Gray was by all accounts, a
season outdoorsman. Friends describe him as having top notch outdoorsm
and skills, and being well trained and able to survive
in the wilderness on his own. He had decades of
experience with camping, hunting, and living off the land. For example,

(26:08):
he was comfortable living fires, constructing shelter if needed, and
knew how to safely approach wilderness survival. When he went
into the Idaho Wilderness in two thousand and eight, he
was well prepared with gear and knowledge.

Speaker 4 (26:21):
So and now.

Speaker 2 (26:23):
That's the type of guy who you'd want to have
with you. Oh yeah.

Speaker 4 (26:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (26:29):
So not only was he just generally experienced, you know,
everything outdoor, he also had experience specific experience with solo
wilderness camping because he had done this on one prior
occasion occasion where he stayed in the field alone for

(26:49):
a few extra days after the hunting group left, So
he actually had done this before, So it's not out
of the realm of possibilities for him.

Speaker 2 (26:57):
Yeah, familiar with the air and knows how to work
use the tools.

Speaker 3 (27:02):
Yeah, he actually hunted in this area twice before this trip,
so he's you know, been here before, so we kind
of knew what to expect. So yeah, it's kind of shocking,
you know, that he went missing. So our timeline starts
on September fourteenth of two thousand and eight. So Ron

(27:27):
arrived in Idaho for an elk hunting trip with two friends.
The group entered the remote Nez Perce National Forest.

Speaker 4 (27:36):
To hunt elk.

Speaker 3 (27:37):
They set up a camp in the Cellway Bitter Wilderness area.
Like I said, Gray was in good health and been
here twice before. And he was also, like I said,
equipped with extensive gear packed just like Joan I did.
Had one hundred pounds backpack. And he had knowledge of

(27:59):
outfitter supply cashes in the area that he could help
that had extra food or supplies if needed. So it's
now September fourteenth to September nineteenth of two thousand and eight.
So over this several the next several days of hunting,
Ron exhibited some unusual behavior noted by his companions. So

(28:21):
he cashed food, batteries, and other supplies and greater amounts
than expected for just a short stay. One hunting partner
reported that Gray had even spent nights away from the
camp alone. During one night outing, Ron became confused in
the dark after losing his flashlight, and he had to
be guided back to camp by another hunter. In a

(28:45):
written statement to the Idaho County Sheriff's office, the friend
said he appeared to be reliving some of his experiences
from Vietnam, suggesting that Gray's military past might have influenced
his behavior or mindset in the wilderness. But despite these incidents,
Ron continued hunting and did not indicate any serious problems

(29:07):
to his companions. But either way, that is a little
troubling that he had some kind of he might have
had some kind of episode where he got confused and
started reliving, you know, past things he did while he
was serving in Vietnam. So we know he didn't have

(29:30):
any reported medical issues, but this might, you know, maybe
he still suffered from PTSD from his his time serving
in Vietnam or even as his time as a law
enforcement officer.

Speaker 4 (29:42):
We don't know though.

Speaker 3 (29:45):
So it's now September nineteenth of two thousand and eight.
This would be the day that he ended up disappearing
and sorry, I lost my spot. So this was the
planned end date of the group's hunt. So Ron's two

(30:08):
friends packed up and left the forest on the nineteenth,
while Gray opted to stay behind to continue hunting on
his own for a few more days.

Speaker 4 (30:17):
Hey there's our site.

Speaker 3 (30:18):
Yeah, Like I said earlier, this decision was not unprecedented.
He had extended solo hunting trips in the past. The
understanding was that he would exit the wilderness a few
days later. He arranged to meet an outfitter at the
specified rendezvous point at Outer Butte area near at the

(30:42):
Otter Butte area in the Nez Perce National Forest. On
September twenty third, two thousand and eight, his friends departed,
making September nineteenth the last confirmed time Gray was seen
by anyone in person. Like I said, he was dressed
in camouflage hunting clothes and read his substantial pack and

(31:03):
weapons as he remained in the back country alone. So
it's now September twenty third, the rendezv rendezvous date that
he failed to meet at. So he was supposed to
meet there of the day so they could he could
be picked up or resupplied, but no one saw him
at the meeting spot.

Speaker 4 (31:24):
By the end of the twenty.

Speaker 3 (31:26):
Third it was clear that he was overdue. The remote
area has limited or no cell phone service, shocking, but
he did carry two radios, including a solar powered radio
and possibly a GPS unit for communication. However, those devices
may not have been working reliably in the deep canyons

(31:48):
and thick forest. Now this is interesting. There were unconfirmed
reports of a radio transmission around this time. One report
indicated that Gray transmitted a message saying he had injured
his knee and was trying to get back to camp.
But it's unclear when that transmission occurred, and it was
never definitively linked to him. But it does appear he

(32:12):
never made it back to camp or obviously the rendezvous point.
So a couple interesting things so far in the case.
We have the report by his friends that he was
acting odd one of the nights, and then a potential
unconfirmed radio transmission where they heard him say he had

(32:33):
injured his knee and was trying to get back to camp.
So interesting, and because it was a radio transmission, you know,
not a cell phone call, it's probably nearly impossible to
figure out where it originated from unless somebody had recorded it.

Speaker 4 (32:54):
So.

Speaker 3 (32:55):
It's now September twenty fourth, two thousand and eight to
September twenty six, two thousand and eight, so you know,
people started growing more concerned as the days passed with
no sign of him. His hunting companions, who had expected
he might show up late, waited about three days after
he missed their meeting before formally reporting and missing. By

(33:20):
September twenty sixth, he was officially reported as a missing
person to the Idaho County authorities, but in fact local
authorities were alerted even earlier by September twenty fourth due
to the missed outfitter rendezvous, So essentially, by the day
after Grey's no show, searchers had begun mobilizing in the area,

(33:42):
and the friends confirmed his disappearance on the twenty six
He had now been missing in the wilderness for at
least three days with no contacts. His wife, Nancy Gray,
who lived back in Massachusetts, was notified, and family members
began to fear that something had gone very wrong. Nancy
told reporters she was not concerned about him finding food,

(34:03):
given his survival skills. She said, I'm concerned about his name.
I think he's hurt and I want more people out
there searching. So during that time, initial search and rescue
efforts kicked off in the Nezpers National Force focused around
the Otter Bute Rendezvous area and the last places Gray

(34:26):
was believed to have been hunting. Idaho County Sheriff's Office
organized the response, with the Idaho County Sheriffs Search and
Rescue POSSE teams heading into the field. By the twenty fourth,
ground searchers were combing the trails in dranges near his route.
Some attention was given to the Jim Creek area, a

(34:47):
spot Gray had mentioned he might visit to go fishing
before leaving the wilderness. Like Joe initially mentioned, the train
was extremely rugged and rote part of the one point
three million acres Sellway Bitterroot Wilderness area. So despite the difficulty,
search crews knew that covering ground quickly quickly was critical

(35:11):
given that Gray was an older adult.

Speaker 4 (35:13):
Potentially in need of help.

Speaker 3 (35:17):
So it's now late September two thousand and eight, so
as the days progressed, the search operation expanded. The Sheriff's
Office received assistance from multiple agencies and volunteers. The Army
National Guard provided support, notably deploying helicopters to conduct aerial
searches over the wilderness. Private aviation firm Hillcrest Aircraft Co

(35:41):
also volunteered to helicopter and pilot to help scour the
back country.

Speaker 4 (35:45):
From the air.

Speaker 3 (35:47):
On the ground, teams of trained sheriffs, volunteers, and other
searchers worked through dense forests, steep ridges, and river valleys.
Like we've mentioned, this terrain is just unforgiving and they
faced challenging conditions. Many trails were faint or had been
affected by past forest fires and regrowth, which made navigation

(36:11):
very difficult. By the end of September, approximately fifty people
were in the area. This included official searchers and many
hunters who were arriving for the general hunting season and
had been asked to keep watch for any sign of gray.
Even though this is a pretty large search rescue, you know,

(36:32):
looking at this chrain, fifty.

Speaker 4 (36:34):
People is that's nothing.

Speaker 3 (36:38):
I mean, and with how experienced he was and how
fit he was, he could have I mean, he could
have gone deep into the wilderness.

Speaker 4 (36:48):
Before hurting his knee.

Speaker 3 (36:50):
Yeah, and they don't know which way he went because
there's really no trails.

Speaker 4 (36:54):
He could have gone anywhere.

Speaker 2 (36:55):
I mean, yeah, you're not gonna see no any trace
of them at all. Yeah, it's just wild. Yeah, there's
no trails on all trails. Yeah, there's a couple real
far away, But this is the first time I open
this up and there's just nothing. Yeah, like even like
in remote areas, like oh there's this one path that

(37:16):
some guy made, there's just literally nothing.

Speaker 4 (37:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (37:19):
We've covered some remote areas, but this is probably.

Speaker 2 (37:22):
Wins as it's the most remote.

Speaker 3 (37:24):
This is almost more remote than some of the places
we've covered in Alaska. I mean, if you think about
you look at this in the totality.

Speaker 2 (37:33):
Of at least this area.

Speaker 3 (37:35):
Yeah, you can go one hundred miles in any direction
in some spots and not hit anything, which is wild.

Speaker 4 (37:43):
Yeah, it looks beautiful though. I would love the absolutely
to hike this. So some of the conditions searchers faced.

Speaker 3 (37:56):
I always like giving it a paint a picture of
what they went through during the search. So the incident commander,
Idaho County Chief Deputy Sheriff John Nita, gave frequent updates
to the media. He noted that Gray was well equipped
to knowledgeable out survival, which at the time gave hope
that Ron could hold out until found.

Speaker 4 (38:20):
Excuse me.

Speaker 3 (38:23):
Gray reportedly carried fire starting tools and was armed for
hunting so he could defend himself or a signal with
gunshots in an emergency like we also said, they mentioned
that he had familiarity with other preset wilderness cash sites
and might use those supplies if needed. However, sadly, no

(38:43):
distress signals were observed that includes campfire, smoke signal, fires,
mirror flashes, or visible SOS messages were depicted during the
search or detected sorry during the search. Canine search units
were offered by volunteers, but in the first week of

(39:04):
the Sheriff's office. In the first week, the Sheriff's Office
did not deploy search dogs due to the extremely rugged
terrain and logistical challenges. Officials said if the search remained unproductive,
they would consider trying anything, including dogs as time went on.
A little bit of good news during the search was

(39:25):
that the weather in late September was favorable for search operations.
Searches in the middle of nowhere, yeah right. The Deputy
Neda reported that conditions were clear and mild. Initially, this
allowed helicopters to fly on most days and ground teams
to traverse the area without dealing with rain or snow.

(39:48):
In the first week, daytime temperatures were reasonable, though nights
were undoubtedly cold in the mountains. As the search moved
towards October, forecast indicated a major change. Clouds are rolling
in by the end of September and snow is expected
in the high country by the first days of October.

Speaker 4 (40:09):
So it's just one of those.

Speaker 3 (40:11):
It's too bad he was dressed in camouflage, because oh,
it just makes it.

Speaker 4 (40:16):
This is one of the first possible.

Speaker 3 (40:18):
Yeah, one of the where they had like clear and
mild days, like they the helicopters up every day, and
you've got this dense of vegetation and you've got a
guy dressed in camouflage.

Speaker 4 (40:28):
To blend in.

Speaker 3 (40:29):
Yeah, I mean nearly impossible to you know, to see
someone at that point.

Speaker 2 (40:34):
Yeah, anyone who's watching the monitor just yeah, so crazy aggressive, rugged,
looks gorgeous, but you're you're that finding anybody.

Speaker 4 (40:44):
No, No, So.

Speaker 3 (40:50):
The looming weather changes added some urgency to the search,
so you know, if he was out there, you know,
snowfall could worsen situation and complicate search efforts. So they
were really hoping to find something before all that came in.
So it's now October first of two thousand and eight,

(41:12):
So nearly a week into the search, crews had scoured
many miles of the wilderness with no substantial leads. On
October first, searchers came across a discarded towel on the
ground in the forest. It was the first potential clue found,
but it was not clear if it belonged to Ron.
Aside from that.

Speaker 2 (41:31):
Where did the odds have belonged to anyone else? Right?
That's kind of what I'm saying is like they found
a human thing like it's Ron's.

Speaker 3 (41:38):
Could be good chance. Aside from that, they had found
no fresh footprints, camps, or other personal belongings during the
initial sweeps. The search effort continued at full force. However,
the National helicopter or National Guard helicopter was unavailable on
this day, so searching relied on ground teams exclusively. Eight

(42:01):
trained searchers from the Sheriff's Department covered as much train
as possible on foot that day. By evening, they noted
the weather was still holding clear, but cloud cover was increasing,
anticipating snow by the next day or so. By October
second of two thousand and eight. This is when a

(42:22):
major break in the case occurred. Searchers actually found Ronald's
backpack in the wilderness. So the pack was discovered near
Highline Lake at approximately five thousand feet elevation. So, I
don't know if you can find Highline Lake out.

Speaker 2 (42:40):
Here, yeahll me look.

Speaker 3 (42:46):
So while Joe's looking that up, I'll continue. So it
was located in an outfitters camp, essentially a preset camp,
where guides had pitched a tent for the season. Ron's
pack appeared to have been left there intentionally. It was
not dropped aphazardly on the trail, but found at a campsite,
as if Gray had placed it down while using the
camp spot. Wow, so that's up there, five thousand feet elevation,

(43:11):
it said. So, yeah, there's an outfitter camp near by there.
I don't know if you can see that on the
Let's see you zoom in if you can see anything
at the las. Yeah, they're saying that outfitter had a
campsite set up, not that we would.

Speaker 2 (43:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (43:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (43:31):
Sometimes, like if it's an outfit they like probably put
something in the same space. That's I'm looking for anything
that looks.

Speaker 4 (43:37):
Leave a ten up all season. They can be used.

Speaker 2 (43:44):
Yeah, I'll not see anything. There's any street view stuff nowhere. No,
it's wild.

Speaker 4 (43:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (43:57):
So so he made it up there. So he wasn't
injured yet, because I mean, if you had a bum knee,
you're not going to go up to a lake at
five thousand feet elevation. So inside the backpack, searchers found
various personal items and logs. Found a journal detailing the

(44:19):
gear Gray was carrying. His vitamins and other small supplies,
and even a checkbook, bank book were in the pack. Crucially,
no notes or SOS message was left in the pack.
There was nothing indicating his plans or that he was
in distress. So to law enforcement, this suggested that when

(44:41):
he left the pack, he did not anticipate in an emergency.
He perhaps meant to return to that spot. The sheriff
stated the pack may have been left behind because Gray
planned to return to that campsite after a short excursion elsewhere.
The location of the pack Highline Lake is a very
rugged is in very rugged country, not far from Mirror

(45:03):
Lake Ridge, another landmark noted in some reports. This is
still within the broad search zone, but finding the pack
helped narrow the focus of the search operations to the
surrounding area. Upon this discovery, search teams redoubled their efforts
in the highline Lake Ottere vicinity, looking for any tracks,

(45:24):
broken branches, or signs that he was went in a
particular direction from that camp. It's now October third, two
thousand and eight's October fourth, two thousand and eight, so by
the first days of October the search had been running
for over a week. Additional personal personnel arrived to assist.

(45:47):
Two of Ron's close friends, both retired Massachusetts State troopers,
flew out west to join the search on the ground.
They met with local officials at the search base near
Outer Butte, and providing information on Gray's habits and skills,
hoping to aid the effort. Around October third, unfortunately, the

(46:09):
much anticipated weather change hit snowfall blanketed parts of the
National Forest. Deputy Nita noted that snow is expected to
hit that weekend, and indeed the temperatures dropped sharply, so
this really had a twofold effect. It made searching vastly
more difficult and potentially dangerous and higher elevations, and it

(46:33):
also raised hopes that if he was mobile and sheltering somewhere.
The cold and snow might compel him to walk out
to lower elevations or signal for help, so searchers remained vigilant,
scanning the fresh snow for any new tracks. Unfortunately, no

(46:53):
new footprints or clues were found Beyond the backpack. There
was no signs around the high line light camp such
as a struggle or injury. It simply looked like Gray
leftist campsite. A leftist camp set up and went elsewhere,
intending to come back. So throughout this period, daily search
operations were reported in the media. The story gained attention

(47:16):
in both Idaho and Massachusetts due to his background. His wife,
Nancy Gray, and other family back home grew increasingly concerned
as each day passed without rescue. The Massachusetts press reported
that relatives feared not enough was being done, though Idahoa
authorities had indeed deployed significant resources. And we always, excuse me,

(47:44):
we always mentioned this. This comes up a lot in
searches that sometimes families, you know, feel that not enough's
being done, when in fact, you know the searchers are
giving it, they're all and a lot of times the
resources are wretched you know, to the max to help search,

(48:04):
and in a remote place like this, the fact that
they had as many people as they did is pretty
amazing because everything we've looked at, this is one of
the most remote, remote places you could hike in the
lower forty eight I would say, I can't think of
many more places that are more remote.

Speaker 2 (48:22):
Yeah, it's some definitely one of the most remote ones
that we've covered, for sure.

Speaker 3 (48:29):
So volunteer interest was still high at this point. Many
people offered to help or donate. The Idaha County Sheriff's
office set up a fund for donations to support the
costly search. The helicopter flight time alone was about eight
hundred and ninety dollars per hour, so not cheap.

Speaker 2 (48:48):
And that's your best bet. Yeah, I mean you can't
cover that ground.

Speaker 4 (48:53):
No, that's if you had a thousand people out there.

Speaker 2 (48:55):
I feel like you wouldn't be able to cover the ground.

Speaker 4 (48:56):
That's your best bet.

Speaker 3 (48:57):
And like we I keep saying, you know what he
was dressed and makes aerial searching really hard.

Speaker 2 (49:03):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 3 (49:07):
It'd be one thing if it was like a deer
hunter in Wisconsin, you'd be dressed in blaze orange. You
would stand out like a sore thumb. Yep, absolutely, especially
after it snowed. But yeah, so by October fourth, the
general hunting season in the region open, bringing even more
hunters into the mountain mountains, all of whom were alerted

(49:27):
to keep watch for any trace of ron. Despite the
wide net of observers and searchers, no further evidence was
discovered in the wilderness beyond the one backpack and the
earlier discarded towel. So it's now mid October two thousand
and eight, so after approximately three weeks of intensive searching,

(49:52):
the official search was skilled back. By mid October, heavy
snow had blanketed the higher elevations of the search area,
effectively closing off the wilderness until spring. The Idaho County
Sheriff's Office reluctantly suspended full scale search operations, though they
continued to follow up on any new leads that arose

(50:14):
and maintained patrols on the periphery as weather allowed. So
general hunting continued through October, so authorities kept in contact
with hunters and asked them to report anything unusual. Sadly,
no clues ever emerged. The search that had begun on

(50:36):
September twenty fourth, ultimately turned up no signs of Ron's whereabouts,
so kind of crazy they found you know, his pack
and that towel and nothing else. So in the following
months and years since its disappearance, the case has remained open,

(50:59):
but with no fresh leads, his family and friends have
dealt with the painful uncertainty. His information was entered into
the National Missing Person's Database name US and the Idaho
State Missing Person's Clearinghouse, but there are no hits or
approachs of anyone seeing him. So periodically small scale search

(51:23):
efforts were mounted when snow melted. For example, local volunteers
and deputies did limited searches in the summer of two
thousand and nine in accessible areas, but these yielded nothing conclusive.
So to this day his case is considered just a
lost or injured missing person. Pretty wild case. You know,

(51:54):
the weather during the search was pretty good early on,
and then obviously the snow moved in. You know, the
lack of rain meant scent tracking dogs. It was a
little difficult for them, but at least the crews did
not have to contend with mud or thunderstorms. Temps during
the day were pretty moderate, but likely drop below freezing

(52:18):
at night, So if he was injured or exposed, that
would be tough. Though he had a lot of you know,
survival gear with him, but still that's a tough environment.

Speaker 2 (52:26):
To It really comes down. Do you think that the
radio signal that they heard was him?

Speaker 4 (52:37):
I don't know. I I think it was.

Speaker 2 (52:40):
I mean, how many other people around say, like, what
else are they going to pick up?

Speaker 4 (52:43):
Yeah, like who's out there?

Speaker 2 (52:44):
Especially if it wasn't even season yet. That's where you
get lucky. You can have a lot of guys going
out in the woods that are hunting that can stumble
upon that stuff. So yeah, but yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 3 (52:55):
Yeah, So you know, the weather obviously the tearing as
the search went on, so the snowfall and cold temperatures
had an immediate effect on the search. Fresh snow can
actually help trackers spot new footprints, but none belonging to
Ron were found.

Speaker 4 (53:13):
In the area.

Speaker 3 (53:15):
The snow also increases the risk of hypothermia for anyone lost,
so you know, if you were conscious and mobile, he
would likely have made a fire for warmth or signal.
No signal fires were spotted by aircraft, and even though
the storm came in, it didn't completely halt the search,
but it signaled the approaching winter conditions. After about two

(53:40):
weeks in the field, with snow on the ground and
no leads, search managers face the tough decision of when
to scale back the active operations. So, yeah, this is
a puzzling one because we've got a situation here where
we've got a very experience, well trained, healthy individual who's

(54:03):
done this before, who is very well prepared, and it
appears he left his gear at one of those outfitter
campsites because he was gonna go do like.

Speaker 4 (54:15):
A day hike. So you got to think.

Speaker 3 (54:19):
How far is he You know, he's he knows what
he's doing, and if his goal is to come back
to the campsite, how far is he going to really
go in that day hike?

Speaker 4 (54:33):
Yeah, so like you think, like all right.

Speaker 3 (54:37):
In that rugged terrain, like how possible is it to
even travel five miles?

Speaker 2 (54:44):
And you assume he's got some sort of injury.

Speaker 4 (54:47):
Well, I'm thinking at some point after he dropped his
pack off.

Speaker 2 (54:50):
He wande d because he injured his knee and he realized,
i mean, he got a huge pack.

Speaker 4 (54:56):
Why wouldn't he just stay at the campsite?

Speaker 2 (54:59):
Maybe he thought he could make it to the butte.

Speaker 3 (55:02):
I mean, I feel like he's experienced enough, like if
you're injured, like you're at a campsite, there's a tent,
get a big fire going, and.

Speaker 2 (55:12):
He's also a marine. Yeah I'm gonna make it. But
I mean it was soundly a tough dude that's probably
like no no business, you know, like the joke they say,
like if a farmer shows up at a hospital, Yeah,
and the doctor asked, did he come here on his
own or is he with his wife? And if he
got there on his own, then did he finish the job? No,

(55:33):
he didn't finish the job he's doing. Okay, this is
a serious emergency. Yeah, Like it's kind of one of
those type of dudes. I bet that's just like I
hurt my knee, but I'll make it.

Speaker 4 (55:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (55:42):
No, I think if I were in that situation, I
and I made it to that camp when I was injured,
I wouldn't move. I would get a you know, I
could see why you might not want to start a
fire down in the thick wooded area.

Speaker 2 (55:58):
You might risk like a forest fire. Yeah, next to
that lake, it looked like it was pretty wide.

Speaker 3 (56:02):
If it's a campsite, you gotta assume maybe they have
like a fire pit or something there, yea.

Speaker 2 (56:07):
And even if they don't, you could get some smoke going,
get something going.

Speaker 4 (56:13):
I mean, that's a perfect area to signal, right.

Speaker 2 (56:17):
On the top of the mountain.

Speaker 3 (56:18):
Yeah, and you're you're at five thousand feet. You've got
a clear view of the horizon. You would see search
helicopters up.

Speaker 4 (56:24):
In the distance.

Speaker 3 (56:26):
So I don't think he was injured before he got
to the camp. I think he dropped his gear and
he was going on a day hike and injured his knee,
because he said in the transmission, I'm trying to get
back to camp.

Speaker 4 (56:42):
Talking about that campsite.

Speaker 2 (56:43):
Good point that could be.

Speaker 4 (56:45):
So I'll go.

Speaker 3 (56:47):
Through just a couple of the theories that law enforcement had.

Speaker 2 (56:50):
So you do that. I'll keep messing with the camera.

Speaker 4 (56:52):
What's going on with it?

Speaker 2 (56:53):
It's just overheated now, it's not coming back on. But
you keep going, all right.

Speaker 3 (56:56):
So the leading theory was obviously injured or a medical emergency.
So this theory is that he suffered an injury such
as a knee injury mentioned in the unconfirmed radio call,
or another medical emergency while alone you know, so if
he hurt his knee badly enough, he may have been

(57:17):
unable to hike out, even or even move, potentially leaving
him stranded in a difficult to spot location. Searchers considered
the scenario very plausible, which is why they scoured likely
travel routes between his last campsite and the rendezvous point.
His wife also strongly believed he was hurt, citing his knee,

(57:39):
and that he was wanting to help, waiting to help,
waiting for help to arrive. Despite this, no shelter or
makeshift campsite where an injured person might hunker down was found.
Another theory was disorientation or his psychological factors, so you know,
the account from his friend about him reliving Vietnam experiences

(58:02):
raised the possibility that his mindset in the woods might
have been altered or might have been altering his behavior,
you know, as a combat veteran. It's speculated he might
have been pushing himself to survive using old military instincts
like chose saying earlier, for example, intentionally spending nights out

(58:24):
alone or moving without a light to maintain stealth.

Speaker 4 (58:32):
This excuse me.

Speaker 3 (58:35):
This could have led him to stray off planned routes
or not return to his base camp as expected. It's
also possible, in a state of confusion or overconfidence, he
could have traveled further into the wilderness than intended. However,
this theory is hard to confirm. It mainly provided context

(58:55):
that his actions might not have been entirely routine in
the days before disappeared. So, you know, people also keep
hanging their hat on the extended solo hunt. So another
angle considered was that he was perhaps chose to he

(59:16):
perhaps chose to extend his solo hunt longer than he
told his friends, using the extra caches of food he stashed,
the fact that he he you know, put more supplies
and necessary for a short trip, and left his backpack
with non essentials like his bank book at an outfitter
camp suggests he might have planned to planned a side excursion,

(59:38):
for example, a multi day you know, stock of game
or a fishing trip to a remote creek.

Speaker 2 (59:46):
It didn't sound like that would be out of the ordinary, No,
So that that sounds like it's something he would just
be like, I'm monestly out here a bit longer, yeah.

Speaker 4 (59:52):
And then you know, expecting to return to his pack.
In this scenario.

Speaker 3 (59:55):
Something could have happened during that excursion, like an accident
or getting lost that prevented his return. So, you know,
the remote and rugged nature of the Cellway bitter wilderness
means a wrong turn could lead to a loane hunter
into impassable terrain. He was carrying a rifle and a
possible side arm. If he encountered dangerous wildlife bears or

(01:00:18):
mountain lions, he was armed, but an animal attack was
considered less likely since no sign of a struggle or
blood was found. I think you know it's injury and
environmental hazards, so is the main theory. So the wilderness
where he vanishes characterized by steep ravines, thick forests, and

(01:00:42):
swift rivers. One theory is he might have fallen into
a canyon or crevasse where his remains are hidden from view.
A fall could have been fatal or left him incapacitated
in a spot that aerials searchers couldn't easily see, you know,

(01:01:02):
like under a tree or at the bottom of a cliff.
He could have also slipped into a river or a creek.
So if he had drowned, and say the Selway River
or a tributary, his body might have been carried downstream.
Search teams did check the water areas, but did not
find evidence in the immediate search area. So people, you know,

(01:01:27):
were throughout this whole thing. People kept talking about his
survival training and you know, all that stuff, and it
led to a lot of speculation of how long do
you think he could survive out here? You know, because
searchers you know, kept hope alive for a while that
they were.

Speaker 4 (01:01:45):
Going to find him.

Speaker 3 (01:01:46):
So, you know, many people who knew him felt that
if anyone could survive such an ordeal, it was him.
He was, like I said earlier, regarded as a very
capable outdoorsman. He had shelter gear, fit equipment, firearms, and
knowledge of edible plants and wildlife. And this led people
to think that maybe he was intentionally hunkering down and

(01:02:08):
waiting for rescue, or maybe trying to self rescue at
a sole placed slow pace due to injury. But unfortunately,
as the days turned into weeks and the lack of
any signal from him, no fires, no flare, no further
radio contact, and the onset of winter made this increasingly doubtful.

Speaker 4 (01:02:31):
You know, if he had been.

Speaker 3 (01:02:32):
Conscious and able, he likely would have made some attempt
to indicate his presence to the searchers.

Speaker 4 (01:02:38):
So the complete silence.

Speaker 3 (01:02:40):
Suggests that either he was incapacitated or no longer alive
during the search. So this is also an interesting so
coupled with my him injuring his knee, So I wonder.

Speaker 4 (01:02:54):
If he.

Speaker 3 (01:02:56):
So he left his pack at that lake campsite, mm hmm,
and then he went for a day hike, or he
went for like a couple of day excursion, maybe had
a day pack that he carried some gear with, like
not his big hundred pound pack.

Speaker 4 (01:03:10):
He gets deep in there, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:03:12):
Maybe he goes in a day injures his knee and
he's like all right, he sends the radio message I'm
heading back to camp. Something happens from that point to
when he tries to get back to camp. So he's
injured but still mobile, and maybe at this point.

Speaker 4 (01:03:30):
He falls and.

Speaker 3 (01:03:35):
Becomes incapacitated because they the theory makes a good point
of if he was still alive, with his training, he
would have tried to signal them in some way, you know,
like a.

Speaker 2 (01:03:48):
Flyer or and he had a radio, and he had
a radio. So as they're getting closer to that area.
They should be able to Yeah, they should be able
to pick up the transmissions.

Speaker 4 (01:03:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:03:58):
So I wonder if something happened to him after that
radio transmission where he either sadly passed away or was
to the point where he was unable to make any
kind of communication with searchers, because it doesn't make sense
that if so, if you think like he injured his knee,

(01:04:21):
you think on the radio transmission he would say something
like I've injured my knee.

Speaker 4 (01:04:25):
I can't move.

Speaker 3 (01:04:26):
Yeah, he didn't say that. He said I'm heading back
to camp, which makes me think that he was still mobile.

Speaker 2 (01:04:33):
Yeah, but that's where I come in, like tough guy,
ex marine, like cop, like I hurt my knee, I'm
heading back to camp.

Speaker 4 (01:04:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:04:42):
Is that like his way saying like, hey, it might
be pretty bad, but he's not gonna say that.

Speaker 4 (01:04:46):
Maybe I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:04:47):
I'm just throwing it out there.

Speaker 3 (01:04:48):
Yeah, I mean, who knows, could be. But I think
something happened to him after that transmission, something serious like
he uh, you know, with the in knee, he wasn't
very you know, he's probably not focused on where he's
walking as much. And based on all of our descriptions

(01:05:09):
of this terrain. It's very rugged. He could have easily
slipped and fallen.

Speaker 2 (01:05:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:05:17):
So I don't know what's your theory.

Speaker 2 (01:05:19):
I just feel like there's some sort of injury or
he got turned around, yeah, which I think is highly unlikely,
but it can still happen. Yeah, because I mean, what's
the alternative. He didn't make it, So, like what stopped him?
With all the stuff he had, all the experience, equipment,

(01:05:39):
all of it.

Speaker 4 (01:05:40):
I think a catastrophic.

Speaker 2 (01:05:44):
Accident like wrong stop, took a tumble off a cliff,
injured badly enough he can't move, and then you just
come to the elements.

Speaker 3 (01:05:51):
Yeah, either you know, killed in the fall or during
the fall, all of his gear goes, you know, flying
in every direction. Yeah, he's busted up enough that he
can't move. At that point, he might still be alive,
but now he can't. You know, he can't make a
call on his radio.

Speaker 4 (01:06:10):
He can't.

Speaker 2 (01:06:11):
No, I'm with you on that. Yeah, I think that
makes the most sense.

Speaker 3 (01:06:14):
I think that radio transmission was him. I think he
was still mobile.

Speaker 2 (01:06:19):
Yeah. What else are you gonna like randomly pick up
out there that's relevant to what you're doing?

Speaker 3 (01:06:23):
Yeah, and hunting season hadn't started yet, so it wasn't
like there was a ton of hunters out there.

Speaker 4 (01:06:29):
And like you said, I mean, this is so remote.

Speaker 3 (01:06:32):
It's so how many people were out in the hundred
mile radius of him during this time?

Speaker 2 (01:06:38):
I mean one hundred ball radius, I few fifty let's
say twenty five mile radius, twenty five I even know
distances are here. Oh, everything's in kilometers. Now, what's what's happening?

Speaker 3 (01:06:53):
Switch the if you click it on the bottom, it
might go to yeah, maybe maybe not, No.

Speaker 4 (01:07:02):
I guess switch it to miles nautical miles. Yeah, right there,
miles was down there. I was, yeah, go down more.

Speaker 2 (01:07:12):
There you are. It's like thirty thirty miles to like
a city. But that's thirty miles through what we've been
looking at.

Speaker 4 (01:07:22):
I'm just saying, like that's crazy.

Speaker 3 (01:07:24):
Probably within like let's say, twenty mile radius of wherever
he was when that radio and transmission was sent, probably
not another person.

Speaker 2 (01:07:32):
Yeah, well, just because of the terrain, Like, yeah, if
you're at the top of a mountain, you can get farther.
But odds are he wasn't up at the top of
a mountain.

Speaker 3 (01:07:41):
And you gotta think, Okay, so radio transmission. You know,
if he's down in one of the valleys, it's gonna
be harder to pick up that transmission. So you got
to assume he's at a higher elevation when he sends
that transmission, which would lead to my theory that after

(01:08:03):
he sent that, he had some kind of like catastrophic
injury like accident, yeah, and fell.

Speaker 4 (01:08:15):
Yeah, I think.

Speaker 3 (01:08:17):
I think that's the most likely. Obviously, animal attack is
very rare.

Speaker 2 (01:08:22):
I wouldn't think. Yeah he was.

Speaker 3 (01:08:25):
Armed, yeah, and I mean you have mountain lions and
black bears, but you know he had a rifle, probably
a side arm, and obviously as an ex marin, he's
training how to use those weapons.

Speaker 2 (01:08:41):
Yeah, I'm thinking he just got lost him.

Speaker 3 (01:08:44):
I mean the other possibility is something you know, his
friends made the comment about that weird episode he had
that one night.

Speaker 4 (01:08:54):
I mean, there's a.

Speaker 2 (01:08:55):
Scent could have came as a result of like a
flashback or something there.

Speaker 4 (01:08:59):
Yeah, maybe something happened like that.

Speaker 2 (01:09:02):
That might be very likely.

Speaker 3 (01:09:05):
Maybe he got lost and then that triggered something and
he had some kind of breakdown or something like something
from his past military experience came out and that led
to his disappearance.

Speaker 4 (01:09:18):
I'm I have no evidence of that.

Speaker 2 (01:09:21):
I'm just I just randomly fund my way back.

Speaker 4 (01:09:26):
It's like a perfect area for a campsite.

Speaker 2 (01:09:28):
Yeah, it is. And like I went through the historical
just to see if I could find like a square
tent somewhere, and I'm not seeing anything that looks like
it's been habited.

Speaker 3 (01:09:39):
Like that would be a perfect spot to like send
up a signal.

Speaker 2 (01:09:44):
Oh yeah, Lelis. It's not heavily forested, so you don't
have to worry about starting a giant fire. Yeah, you
can see the smoke from everywhere. It's one of the
higher points in the area.

Speaker 3 (01:09:53):
Even if you didn't want to start a fire, you
could get like a stick and put like a bright
colored shirt on it, like a flag and.

Speaker 2 (01:09:58):
Just put it on the top, or make so os
out of rocks, like yeah, you know anything, I have
no doubt that if anything in threes.

Speaker 4 (01:10:07):
That's why I would like I would stay at that spot.

Speaker 2 (01:10:10):
Yep. If that's a recommendation, always stay where you are.

Speaker 3 (01:10:14):
Problem is if there's no campsite there, that's pretty exposed. Yeah,
so you know, if you're worried about weather coming in,
I mean there there's not a lot of there's nowhere
really to take shelter.

Speaker 2 (01:10:28):
I can look back around two thousand and eight. That's
wild they have like how not good it is? Yeah yeah,
I mean it was still pretty barren.

Speaker 3 (01:10:42):
You're not gonna get a lot of shelter from the
elements there. But yeah, if the weather's good, you know,
all you're you're dealing with is you know, low tempts
and you have the gear that he had.

Speaker 4 (01:10:54):
Yeah that looks brutal.

Speaker 2 (01:10:59):
Yeah, so all this nough. Yeah, I don't know. I
think it's elements unfortunately. Yeah, so all right, yeah, I
think we want all of your opinions. But thanks again
for tuning into our show. We appreciate you all for
listening and sharing locations and known with your friends and family.

Speaker 4 (01:11:20):
Promise I'll be healthy next week, probably not.

Speaker 2 (01:11:22):
Be sure to like and follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter,
and YouTube, where you can find videos of each episode.
Even though my camera just went out, I don't have
to like warranty that thing or something it's not turning
back on. Also, if you'd like to support the show monetarily,
you can visit our Facebook store or buy some cool
sweet merch not swag. Additionally, you can subscribe to our

(01:11:43):
patron account on YouTube and Apple, where you'll have access
to special events and additional shows for paid customers only. Lastly,
when enjoying the beauty of nature, whether backpacking, camping, or
simply taking a walk, always remember to leave no trace.
Thanks and we will see you all next time.

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