February 7, 2025 • 56 mins
Guests: Dr. Dillon Henry, Digital Accessioning Archivist, and Cliff Landis, Digital Curation Archivist, Archives and Special Collections department of the Georgia Tech Library.
First broadcast February 7 2025. Transcript at https://hdl.handle.net/1853/77063
Playlist here
"Retro, meaning to them, made before 2010."
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
(00:03):
[ELECTRONIC BUZZING, STATIC]
(SINGING) Oh wow, howamazing and interesting too
But in this digitalworld, what can we do?
What can we do?
Hey, good question
Well, it's up to you
(00:24):
In the digital world, there'sonly three things to do
Oh, wow, how amazingand interesting too
But in this digitalworld, what can we do?
[ELECTRONIC BUZZING, STATIC]
CHARLIE BENNETT (00:43):
I'm going to tell everybody right away--
FRED RASCOE (00:47):
I left the broadcasting monitor on,
so I thought that thething was looping.
CHARLIE BENNETT: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (00:53):
undefined
OK.
So we've got a thumbsup from everybody.
And the reason thatwe need a thumbs up
is because we justhijacked the air studio,
just stepped in andsaid, we're going
to switch over fromthe production studio
to the air studio, despite thefact that the computer's not
working in here.
Because we need thespace for our talk show.
(01:13):
So the chief engineeris coming in here.
FRED RASCOE (01:16):
It's crazy, but WREK engineers are the best.
So they're helping us out a lot.
CHARLIE BENNETT (01:20):
Yes, they are.
And they're givingus a lot of support.
Fred, you want meto start the show?
FRED RASCOE (01:25):
Please do.
CHARLIE BENNETT (01:27):
You are listening to WREK Atlanta,
and this is Lost in theStacks, the research-library
rock-and-roll radio show.
I'm Charlie Bennett inthe studio with a calamity
and everybody else.
Each week on Lost in theStacks, we pick a theme
and then use it to create amix of music and library talk.
Whichever you're herefor, we hope you dig it.
FRED RASCOE (01:47):
And our show today is called a disaster-- no,
it's not.
It's not.
The show today is calledThe Past in the Future.
Hang on a second.
Wasn't that the nameof the show last week?
CHARLIE BENNETT (01:59):
I know everything's screwed up,
Fred, but don't worry.
FRED RASCOE (02:01):
OK.
MARLEE GIVENS (02:01):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you're almost right.
But last week, for ourhistorical reading club,
we looked at thefuture in the past.
Today, we're talkingabout a research lab
in the GeorgiaTech Library, where
you can explorehow old technology
affects our current lives.
And that means we'll be talkingabout the past in the future.
FRED RASCOE (02:20):
That seems legit.
OK, I'm going to start again.
I need a whole reseton this whole day.
OK.
Our show today is calledThe Past in the Future.
Deja vu.
This is part 5 in our series,the Georgia Tech Library
Guidebook.
MARLEE GIVENS (02:34):
On the first Friday of each month,
we visit a site inthe guidebook and talk
about a space or service inthe Georgia Tech Library.
ALEX MCGEE (02:41):
Our space today isn't just a space,
it's a service anda research concern.
It's retroTECH.
The retroTECH space is on thethird floor of Crosland Tower,
but its mission iseverywhere and everywhen.
MARLEE GIVENS (02:54):
retroTECH is here to help Georgia Tech create
the future by exploringand preserving
our technological past.
ALEX MCGEE (03:01):
Through retroTECH, we
want to learn more about howour lives shape technology
and how technology shapes ourlives through our history.
CHARLIE BENNETT (03:08):
And the vision of retroTECH
is to inspire a cultureof longterm thinking,
ongoing access totechnological heritage,
peer-to-peer discovery,and individual empowerment.
That's the best part.
FRED RASCOE (03:20):
And our songs today are about changes, technology,
and looking forward andbackward at the same time.
retroTECH is all about helpingus see how changes in technology
help us look forwardwhile we're looking back.
It's like pushingin two directions
on the timeline at once.
So let's start with"Pushin Forward Back"
by Temple of the Dog righthere on Lost in the Stack.
CHARLIE BENNETT (03:42):
Fred, Thank you so much for that.
[TEMPLE OF THE DOG, "PUSHINFORWARD BACK"]
ALEX MCGEE (03:57):
That was "Pushin Forward Back"
by Temple of the Dog.
This is Lost in the Stacks.
And our show today is calledThe Past in the Future.
And it's all about retroTECHat the Georgia Tech Library.
This is the fifth in our GeorgiaTech Library Guidebook series.
On the first Fridayof each month,
we visit a sitefrom the guidebook
featuring a space or servicein the Georgia Tech Library.
CHARLIE BENNETT: And our guides today (04:20):
undefined
are past and futureguests Dr. Dillon Henry
and Cliff Landis from Archivesand Special Collections
at the Georgia Tech Library.
Dillon is the digital-- andI got to say this word now
on air--
the digital"a-session-ing" archivist.
ALEX MCGEE (04:34):
Accessioning.
DILLON HENRY (04:35):
Accessioning.
CHARLIE BENNETT (04:36):
Accessioning.
Thank you, everyone.
And Cliff is the digitalcuration archivist.
Welcome back to the show.
CLIFF LANDIS (04:41):
Glad to be here.
Good to see you.
[LAUGHTER]
CHARLIE BENNETT (04:44):
You're both a little shell-shocked by just how
weird the studio is right now.
And so are we, so that's OK.
DILLON HENRY (04:50):
Well, this is my first time being in the studio.
CHARLIE BENNETT (04:53):
It's a wonderful introduction for you.
So let's talk about retroTECH.
This is the guidebook.
We're on the third floorof the Crosland tower.
We're walking intothe retroTECH lab.
What's in there?
DILLON HENRY (05:06):
Well, if you walk into the retroTECH lab,
you will see an array ofmonitors and some tables.
And then if you step inand look to the right,
you will see alittle alcove area
with a number of old CRTtelevisions, video game
consoles, vinyl record player.
(05:29):
You'll see some oldcameras on the shelves,
some scientificinstruments, laptops, other
just vintage technology.
You got some floppy disksup there, some zip disks,
and all that good stuff.
CHARLIE BENNETT (05:44):
So it sounds like the collection of equipment
is the more important part thanthe array of computer screens.
DILLON HENRY (05:50):
Correct, yes.
CHARLIE BENNETT (05:52):
You mentioned a lot of kinds of things.
Do you have a favoritespecific thing
in the retroTECH collectionthat we can focus in on?
DILLON HENRY (06:00):
Oh, gosh, that is a really good question.
Oh, there's so manyto choose from.
One thing-- oh, go ahead, Cliff.
CLIFF LANDIS (06:11):
Oh I was just going to say the math grenade
I think is one of--
DILLON HENRY (06:15):
That's coming in.
CLIFF LANDIS (06:15):
--my favorite--
DILLON HENRY (06:16):
Yeah, yeah.
CLIFF LANDIS (06:18):
We're building up our collection
of scientifichistorical equipment.
And one of those isbasically a calculator
that techs had to takeout into the field
to do calculations very quicklybefore the modern calculator was
invented.
And so we've been building upour calculation and mathematics
collection.
And I think that's one ofthe coolest-looking things
(06:39):
that we have.
CHARLIE BENNETT (06:39):
I think you jumped over why
it's called the math grenade.
DILLON HENRY (06:43):
Yeah, so it's handheld.
It's like a large capsulewith a little screw
or a little twistything on the top
that you use to performthe calculations.
And you can lift itup and pull it down--
it's like the pin or something.
CHARLIE BENNETT (06:56):
[LAUGHS] Wow.
DILLON HENRY (06:58):
And yeah.
CHARLIE BENNETT (07:00):
I'm almost positive that William Gibson
talked about a math grenadein Pattern Recognition.
DILLON HENRY (07:05):
He did.
He absolutely did.
And what's funny is-- becauseCliff brought this up.
And I had recently--
well, since I startedworking at Georgia Tech
and we have this hugescience fiction collection,
I was reading a bunchof William Gibson.
And I read that book, andthere was a character talking
about Curta calculators.
And I didn't know what that was.
So my brain just was like, oh,maybe that's a real thing, maybe
(07:28):
not, whatever.
It went in and out.
And then two years later,I'm researching stuff.
I'm like, oh, this Curtacalculator looks pretty cool.
And then Cliff islike, hey, this
is in William Gibson'sPattern Recognition.
And I read that,and I had no idea.
CHARLIE BENNETT (07:42):
We have in the script
that we should stop thesegment right about now,
but I'm not going to.
Because we really need to diginto what you all just did,
which is recognizing through asort of experiential learning
process the realityof a fiction,
reality of a design past.
Maybe I just said everythingthat needs to be said.
(08:03):
But any thoughts on what Ijust dumped on you there?
DILLON HENRY (08:07):
I guess I'll say that something that I see when--
and we can get more intothis after the break.
But when students comein and they'll play--
I'll set up, like, an oldMario Kart for Super Nintendo
or Nintendo 64.
And it's like, oh, I'veplayed a newer one.
And I know that there'ssome precedent for this,
but I never saw it or neverreally thought about it.
(08:30):
And that's not quitethe same thing,
but it's like this existence ofsomething that's almost mythical
because it's before your time.
CHARLIE BENNETT (08:38):
What was that feeling,
Cliff, when yousaw the real thing
that you had only read about?
CLIFF LANDIS (08:43):
It's been very cool to come
into the collections andsee all of the material that
is historical.
Because Georgia Tech isvery focused on the present,
very focused on the future, andimproving the human condition.
So to have these touch pointsto our technological past
and to be able to not just seebut hold these things that are
(09:06):
where all of our moderntech really comes from
has been really cool.
It's a great way to connectstudents and anybody who
visits to theseintergenerational conversations
around technology.
You can't help but chat about,like, oh, when I was growing up,
I played on theoriginal NES system.
Or I had an Amiga whatever--
CHARLIE BENNETT (09:30):
Deep cut.
[LAUGHTER]
CLIFF LANDIS (09:33):
So that's been cool for me.
MARLEE GIVENS (09:35):
This is Lost in the Stacks.
We'll be back with more of thesedeep cuts with Dillon Henry
and Cliff Landisafter a music set.
File this set underBF637 dot C4 no dot S45.
[LAUGHTER]
[BILLY JOEL, "IT'S STILL ROCKAND ROLL TO ME"]
(09:55):
(SINGING) Everybody'stalking about the new sound
Funny, but it's stillrock and roll to me
CHARLIE BENNETT (10:14):
That was "It's Still Rock and Roll to Me"
by Billy Joel.
And, yes, some of us weresinging along in our heads.
And before that,"Changer" by Andy Shauf.
Song's about watchingchange happen,
whether we like it or not.
[ROCK MUSIC]
MARLEE GIVENS (10:32):
This is Lost in the Stacks.
And today's show is calledThe past in the Future.
It's another episode for ourGeorgia Tech Library Guidebook.
CHARLIE BENNETT (10:39):
We're talking about the retroTECH lab,
third floor of Crosland Tower.
And our guides are Dr.Dillon Henry and Cliff
Landis from the Archives andSpecial Collections Department.
OK, so we gotstarted on retroTECH.
And the whole math grenadething really set the tone.
But what happens in the lab?
Why are those things there?
And what are youall doing with them?
DILLON HENRY (11:01):
Well, they're there so people can access them.
I know that, as a formerstudent for a long time myself,
it can be kind of intimidating,going into a library
or going into an archive.
And so having thisspace with stuff
set up where we can mediatepeople's interaction--
and especiallywith old technology
(11:22):
that they might notbe familiar with.
Like, they might not know howto change a console cartridge
or even pushing a button to openthe disk slot because they're
used to just sliding somethinginto a disk tray or whatever.
So we're there so we canmediate this experience.
CHARLIE BENNETT (11:40):
I feel like the definition of old technology
here is not just something thatwas created a long time ago
but also maybe is outof use a little bit
has started to become less partof our everyday technology use.
DILLON HENRY (11:57):
Definitely.
And that happens very quicklyin the technological sphere.
If you look at a NintendoEntertainment System from
the late '80s and then look at aPlayStation 5 or something like
that and how many generationsof video game consoles have been
in between there, there's beensuch crazy leaps and bounds
(12:18):
where something is obsoletewithin a matter of years.
CHARLIE BENNETT (12:21):
And there's a lot of gaming stuff in there.
DILLON HENRY (12:24):
Correct.
And part of that isbecause, well, it's
important to preservebecause it could be lost.
The Software PreservationNetwork released a paper--
I believe it wastwo years ago or so,
saying that 87% of gamesthat they called retro, which
(12:46):
they said was 2010 or earlier--
CHARLIE BENNETT (12:48):
Come on.
[LAUGHTER]
Get out.
[LAUGHTER]
DILLON HENRY (12:52):
But 87% of those games
are not available for purchasefrom their original rights
holders, which posesa problem if we're
talking aboutpreservation and being
able to have access to things.
They say we lost 90% of filmsfrom the silent film era,
and we're in danger of doingthe same thing with games.
(13:15):
And games are such animportant part of culture.
CHARLIE BENNETT (13:18):
And it's not just having the media
that something is on.
It's also having whatcan access that media.
DILLON HENRY (13:24):
Correct.
I had a group of students,they scheduled an appointment
and they came in because theywere working on a game project.
And one of the students wantedto recreate some sort of effect
from one of theFinal Fantasy games
from the original PlayStation.
And he had his teammembers come in
(13:44):
because there's no replacementfor the actual tactile
sensation.
You're putting in the disk.
You're hearing itspin and load up.
You're putting up the CRT.
And these graphics weredesigned with the CRT
in mind, with the dithering thatyou would see on the screen.
So if you see thegraphics in HD,
(14:06):
it looks bad, to put itone way, because that's not
how they were designed.
They were designedwith the CRT in mind.
So there's just no replacementfor the actual hardware in situ
and using it yourself.
CHARLIE BENNETT (14:22):
Some folks listening might not
know what CRT actually is.
CLIFF LANDIS (14:28):
Cathode-ray tube--
it was the big glassscreens that you
would have for the originalTVs that would come out,
where an electron beam just goesacross the screen really fast
to create a picture in motion.
CHARLIE BENNETT (14:41):
I just felt vertigo
when you describedthe beam going across.
I'm like, oh,yeah, that's right.
That's the flicker.
So this not eventhe big, honking TV.
It's the mid-rangebig, honking TV.
Are you doing collectiondevelopment on the equipment?
Are you searching for stuff?
DILLON HENRY (15:02):
Yes, yeah, collection development
on hardware and software.
And I try to curate based onmy own knowledge of not just
video game history but alsocultural history and memory,
(15:22):
for instance.
Before I took over thelab, I suggested a purchase
for a Philips CD-i anda few games for it,
such as Hotel Marioand a few Zelda games--
Wand of Gamelon.
Is that what it was called?
And the thing was--
CHARLIE BENNETT (15:42):
Acting like you don't know.
DILLON HENRY (15:44):
--the console was a commercial failure.
It was a total flop.
It was an early attemptat using CDs for games.
And what's notable is thatNintendo allowed other parties
to create these Mario andthese Zelda games that
had cutscenes in themthat were poorly animated,
(16:08):
poorly voice acted.
And with the adventof the YouTube era,
people took these cutscenesand they made they edits--
some not suitable for work.
And so you had this--
CHARLIE BENNETT (16:21):
Due to copyright restrictions, right?
DILLON HENRY (16:23):
Oh, yes, of course.
And so you had this consoleand these games that were not
successful at their time orfor their intended purpose
but became part ofthe cultural zeitgeist
in a new era and a new form--
so the way thata game can become
kind of a cultural artifact,even if the game itself
wasn't somethingparticularly noteworthy.
CHARLIE BENNETT (16:42):
I feel like you just
summed up one of theresearch concerns
of retroTECH all at once.
You are listening toLost in the Stacks.
And we'll hear more aboutretroTECH, which I guess--
what-- 15 years ago?
Come on-- on the leftside of the hour.
[ROCK MUSIC]
MIKE GIARLO (17:04):
All right.
This is Mike Giarlo,the architect.
My job is APIs, AIPs, and IPAs.
You are listening to Lost inthe Stacks on WREK Atlanta.
[ROCK MUSIC]
(SINGING) [INAUDIBLE]
CHARLIE BENNETT (17:25):
Today's show is called The past in the Future.
We're talking about theretroTECH lab in the Georgia
Tech Library.
One of the things that retroTECHalways brings mind to me
is the Long Now Foundation,an organization founded
to promote longterm thinking,much like retroTECH is doing.
One of its foundingboard members
was the musician Brian Eno, whocoined the term Long Now, along
(17:47):
with a bunch of other stuff.
Here's an excerpt from his essayThe Big Here and the Long Now.
"Now is never just a moment.
The long now is the recognitionthat the precise moment
you're in grows out of the pastand is a seed for the future.
The longer your senseof now, the more
past and future it includes.
(18:09):
It's ironic that at the timewhen humankind is at a peak
of its technical powers, able tocreate huge global changes that
will echo down the centuries,most of our social systems
seem geared toincreasingly short nows.
We struggle to negotiate our waythrough an atmosphere of utopian
promises and dystopianthreats, a minefield
(18:30):
studded with pots of treasure.
We face a future wherealmost anything could happen.
Will we be crippled by globalwarming, weapons proliferation,
and species depletion,or liberated
by space travel,world government,
and molecule-sized computers?
We don't even want tostart thinking about it.
This is our peculiar form ofselfishness, a studied disregard
(18:51):
of the future.
Our astonishing success asa technical civilization
has led us to complacency, toexpect that things will probably
just keep getting better.
But there is no reasonto believe this.
So we'll chew on thatin the retroTECH lab.
File this set under TK452.T65.
(19:12):
[DAFT PUNK, "TECHNOLOGIC"] Buyit, use it, break it, fix it
Trash it, changeit, mail upgrade it
Charge it, point it,zoom it, press it
Snap it, work it, quick erase it
Write it, cut it, paste it,save it, load it, check it
[FATIMA, "TECHNOLOGY"]
ALEX MCGEE (19:28):
That was "Technology"
by Fatima and, before that,"Technologic" by Daft Punk--
songs about thetechnology in our lives.
CREW (19:39):
Oh, no bump.
CHARLIE BENNETT (19:40):
So we just had a bump.
Alex, go ahead andstart the next segment.
ALEX MCGEE (19:44):
Yeah, this is Lost in the Stacks.
And our show today is partof the Georgia Tech Library
Guidebook.
This episode is calledThe Past in the Future,
and it's all about retroTECH.
CHARLIE BENNETT (19:53):
We're speaking with Dillon Henry and Cliff
Landis from the GeorgiaTech Library's Archives
and Special Collections.
And two of the--
I'm not going to call youmasterminds because that has
a different tone these days.
But you do the stuffthat's in retroTECH, right?
What are your plans?
Why does retroTECH connect towhat you do at the library?
DILLON HENRY (20:15):
Well, we're both digital archivists.
I don't know if youwant to take this.
I've been hogging the mic.
So if you want to--
CLIFF LANDIS (20:20):
Oh.
Yeah, sure.
I think the future ofretroTECH hopefully
will be tied a little bitcloser to the instruction
and research that happenshere at the institute.
We've been able to do someof these initial partnerships
with folks across campus,which has been pretty awesome.
But I think part of thechallenge of any sort of retro
(20:41):
technology is that we know thatit's not going to last forever--
so trying to keep italive as long as possible.
So one of the approachesto digital curation
is something calledencapsulation.
And that's whereyou try and take
the technology that actuallyplays the media that you're
trying to play and keep it alltogether and keep it all alive
(21:03):
so that somebody can do-- likewhat Dillon's students were
trying to do-- come inand have the experience
of dealing with thistechnology hands
on, seeing it withyour own eyes,
touching the keyboard or thecontroller, interacting with it
as it was created tobe interacted with.
But as time goes by,we're going to have
(21:23):
to shift more towardsemulation, because we're
going to have to usenewer technologies
to provide a playback forsome of the older stuff that
is no longer accessible.
So we have to takemultiple approaches,
trying to keep this stuffalive as long as possible.
DILLON HENRY (21:39):
Yeah.
And part of that is if thisstuff is designed to be used,
which also kind of makesit unique in that--
typically, witharchival material,
it has to be verydelicately handled.
But the point is, we have stuffbecause the point is to play it.
They're games.
And using technology can lead toits non-use, especially when you
(22:02):
have stuff that'sold and finicky.
And then how do you get--like, if you have an Apple II
and the floppydrive stops working?
Not that that's a casethat's currently--
[LAUGHTER]
Well, it's like, howdo you-- you can't just
go to an Apple store today andplop an Apple IIe on the counter
(22:24):
and say, hey, fix this.
CHARLIE BENNETT (22:25):
And is there a junkyard for computers?
Can you go and rip a driveout of something somewhere?
[LAUGHS]
CLIFF LANDIS (22:33):
If you go on eBay, you will see a lot of old tech
that is listed eitheras in working condition
or not in working condition.
So part of the challengeis that the people who know
how to do repair are dying.
CHARLIE BENNETT (22:45):
Wow.
CLIFF LANDIS (22:46):
The folks--
CHARLIE BENNETT: Not metaphorically? (22:47):
undefined
CLIFF LANDIS (22:48):
Not metaphorically-- literally.
And we encounterthis when it comes
to even things like 8 millimeterfilm, any sort of older
technology.
The people who not only havethe machines but know how to fix
the machines whenthey break down,
they might be trying tooutsource to get something 3D
printed in order toreplace a component
(23:11):
because nobody's manufacturingthe parts to VHSes anymore,
VHS tape decks.
So we're trying to keep it aliveas long as humanly possible.
But when we can't,we try to migrate it
to a format that canlive a little bit longer
or, if it's an interactivetool, create some way
to emulate it so that folkscan still have that experience.
(23:33):
But yes, we aresometimes buying stuff
to cobble togethera thing that works.
CHARLIE BENNETT (23:37):
Yeah.
You've mentionedemulation a couple times.
Can you describe thatwith a little more detail?
Because I think maybe--
certainly, I know alittle bit about it.
And some peoplemight not know what
that means at all,when you're talking
about this softwareand these hardware.
CLIFF LANDIS (23:53):
Yeah.
So emulation iswhere you're trying
to emulate what theoriginal experience is like.
And so a lot of emulationhas been supremely popular
in retro gaming in particular.
Because a lot ofthe computer geeks
and programmers andcoders who love games also
love to figure out waysto keep these games
(24:14):
playable so that they cancontinue to enjoy them.
CHARLIE BENNETT (24:16):
Half the time I play Galaga,
it's on a computer--
CLIFF LANDIS (24:19):
Right, exactly.
CHARLIE BENNETT (24:19):
--that's attached to a joystick, not
an actual machine.
CLIFF LANDIS (24:22):
Exactly, exactly.
So we have our little timemachine emulator in retroTECH
that allows you to play oldgames from Amiga, NES, N64.
DILLON HENRY (24:32):
Well, and I'll add something as well--
is that with emulation,some of these retro games
still have verythriving communities.
For instance, a big part ofmy retro gaming experience
was getting into SuperMario World ROM hacks.
So you take Super MarioWorld, which was released,
(24:53):
like, 35 years ago forthe Super Nintendo.
And what happens is--
CHARLIE BENNETT (24:57):
Wait, wait.
I should say,Cliff had a moment.
CLIFF LANDIS (25:01):
I did.
I couldn't helpbut roll my eyes.
ALEX MCGEE (25:03):
He was the melting emoji face.
CLIFF LANDIS (25:05):
35 years, jeez.
DILLON HENRY (25:07):
But what it is is people,
they take the assets fromthe game and they make--
it's called kaizo from theJapanese word for rearranged--
and so kaizo SuperMario World hacks,
where they try to makestuff as difficult as--
extremely difficultfor humans to do,
with all kinds of weird tricks.
(25:29):
And you really have to know indetail how some of the mechanics
and some of the physics,including weird sprite
spawning or advanced--
CHARLIE BENNETT: Dillon, you know (25:41):
undefined
you're starting to say things Idon't understand at all, right?
DILLON HENRY (25:45):
But the point being is that people today
in 2025 these decades later arestill using this base game in--
they're still creatingand, in new ways,
they're still interacting withthis base game from that time.
So that's another waythat people contemporarily
(26:06):
are still interacting with thisold technology in new ways.
CLIFF LANDIS (26:09):
It's not static.
It actually can continue tochange as long as people are
interested in engaging with it.
CHARLIE BENNETT (26:15):
I love a show like this
where literally,every two minutes, we
have another show idea justkind of drop into our laps.
But we're out of time.
So this is Lost in the Stacks.
And today, we visited theretroTECH lab a little bit
on the third floor of CroslandTower for the GT Library
Guidebook.
MARLEE GIVENS (26:35):
Our guests were doctor Dillon Henry,
digital accessioningarchivist, and Cliff Landis,
digital curationarchivist in the Archives
and Special CollectionsDepartment of the Georgia Tech
Library.
Thanks to both of youfor being on the show.
DILLON HENRY (26:47):
Thanks for having us.
CLIFF LANDIS (26:49):
Thanks for having us.
And retroTECH tech is openMonday through Thursday.
DILLON HENRY (26:52):
Yep, 10:00 AM until noon.
And whenever we have eventslike Charlie's Long Now
lecture series andthen there will be--
CHARLIE BENNETT (26:59):
Coming up soon, coming fast.
DILLON HENRY (27:01):
--on March 13--
do I have that right?
Yep, March 13 from 4:30 to6:30 in retroTECH, third floor,
Crosland tower, there willbe Super Smash Brothers
for the Nintendo 64 andSuper Smash Brothers Melee
for the GameCube.
CHARLIE BENNETT (27:19):
I think I just figured out
one of the ways you're goingto keep this thing going,
popular support.
File this set under PS3572.05S6.
[ROCK MUSIC] Could itbe you're coming round
[GRAY MATTER, "RETROSPECT"]
(27:39):
ALEX MCGEE (27:47):
That was "Retrospect" by Gray Matter.
And before that,"Time Moves Slow"
by BADBADNOTGOODwith Sam Herring.
And before that, "Next Summer"by King Radon and the Noble
Gases--
songs about time passing by andthe new becoming old, or rather,
retro.
[ROCK MUSIC]
CHARLIE BENNETT: [LAUGHS] I'm not laughing (28:07):
undefined
because Fred miscued the bump.
I'm laughing at Fred's faceafter he miscued the bump.
It was kind of beautiful.
Today's show was calledThe Past in The Future,
and it's like the retro inthe now and the librarians
in the studio.
And we visited the retroTECHlab at the Georgia Tech Library.
OK, for fun, get all loose--
(28:29):
let's end the show with aquick survey of everybody.
I want to know what yourfavorite piece of retro
technology is.
And you can defineretro however you want.
Mine, of course, is theSelectric in the display case
down in science fiction, whichI am thinking all the time about
whether I can steal it or not.
And I know I can't.
I keep saying it so peoplewill keep me accountable
(28:52):
not stealing the Selectric.
Fred, what about you?
FRED RASCOE (28:55):
It's a piece of retro technology
that I currently stilluse, my clock radio alarm
clock, which I still useto wake up in the morning.
MARLEE GIVENS (29:04):
Oh, that's cool.
CHARLIE BENNETT (29:05):
Yeah.
Marlee?
MARLEE GIVENS (29:06):
I have a fond memory
of the good old floppydisk drive that would just
make that comfortingwhir, that you
knew it was doing something,even if it was not
doing the right thing.
You knew was doing something.
How about you, Cody?
CODY (29:21):
I think mine's got to be the music series Now That's What
I Call Music CD collection.
Not only is an old pieceof technology, the CD,
but it speaks tothe way people used
to consume music-- abusiness model that
makes no sense anymore.
I remember cleaningout my aunt's house
and we found Now That'sWhat I Call Music 2.
And I felt like I hadfound a piece of history.
(29:43):
What about you, Alex?
ALEX MCGEE (29:44):
That's a very solid answer.
I am going to say the Edisonphonograph that-- we do
have one in our retroTECH lab.
But I had first encountered onewhen I was working up at MIT.
And it is just--
the honking horn,I just love it.
It looks silly and retro.
(30:04):
And how about you, Cliff?
CLIFF LANDIS (30:07):
I am going to go back to the beginning
and say fire--
[LAUGHTER]
--one of theoriginal technologies
that has helped humanityprogress as far as it has.
What about you, Dillon?
DILLON HENRY (30:19):
If you'll indulge me, I have two.
I have my basic answer,which I would say the PS2.
I think that's just myfavorite console, just
excellent era for gaming.
And then just soft, nostalgicanswer is AOL dial-up,
just the comfortingscreeching and just
the [IMITATES DOOR CREAKING]door opening, you've got mail--
(30:41):
just the--
CHARLIE BENNETT (30:42):
Awesome.
DILLON HENRY (30:42):
old, classic AOL dial-up.
CHARLIE BENNETT (30:44):
I love all those answers, although I
think fire was cheating.
[LAUGHTER]
Alex, go ahead andgrab Cliff's mic
so he doesn't say anything else.
And with that, let'sroll the credits.
[UPBEAT MUSIC]
ALEX MCGEE (31:05):
Lost in the Stacks is
a collaboration between rackAtlanta and the Georgia Tech
Library.
Written and produced byAlex McGee, Charlie Bennett,
Fred Rascoe, and Marlee Givens.
MARLEE GIVENS (31:15):
Legal counsel and a nice, comfy gaming chair
were provided by the BurrusIntellectual Property Law Group
in Atlanta, Georgia.
CHARLIE BENNETT (31:21):
It's incredibly comfortable.
Special thanks to Cliff andDillon for being on the show,
to our old teammateWendy Hagenmaier
for launching retroTECH, and allour colleagues keeping it going.
And thanks, as always, toeach and every one of you
for listening.
ALEX MCGEE (31:36):
Our web page is library.gatech.e
du/lostinthestacks, where you'llfind our most recent episode,
a link to our podcastfeed, and a web form
if you want to tell us what yourfavorite retro technology is.
MARLEE GIVENS (31:47):
Next week, one of Georgia Tech's Britten Fellows
talks about her research onthe value of citizen science.
FRED RASCOE (31:54):
It's time for our last song today I think,
the way things aregoing in the studio--
I don't know-- optimism.
And to emphasize the pointthat the term retro is relative
depending on one'sperspective, as we've
heard a lot today, let'sclose with a song from 2018--
CHARLIE BENNETT (32:10):
Fred, I will drag you out of the studio.
FRED RASCOE (32:12):
--which is almost the most recent song
on today's playlist.
But according to my17-year-old daughter,
who is an obsessive K-popmusic fan, this track is old.
CHARLIE BENNETT (32:23):
OK, I withdraw my objection.
FRED RASCOE (32:25):
And so it's apt that the title of this track is
"Retro".
From Korea, this is retroby the k-pop legends SHINee
right here on Lostin the Stacks.
Have a great weekend, everybody.
[UPBEAT MUSIC]
Just a second, just a second.
CHARLIE BENNETT (32:46):
Fred, you know the mics are still on, right?
FRED RASCOE (32:49):
Just a second.
[LAUGHTER]
This is possibly myfavorite episode so far.
[SHINEE, "RETRO"] Hey, yeah
I don't know what it is but
This girl got mefeeling all emotional
Let me tell you real quick
[SINGING IN KOREAN]
(33:10):
(00:03):
[ELECTRONIC BUZZING, STATIC]
(SINGING) Oh wow, howamazing and interesting too
But in this digitalworld, what can we do?
What can we do?
Hey, good question
Well, it's up to you
(00:24):
In the digital world, there'sonly three things to do
Oh, wow, how amazingand interesting too
But in this digitalworld, what can we do?
[ELECTRONIC BUZZING, STATIC]
CHARLIE BENNETT (00:43):
I'm going to tell everybody right away--
FRED RASCOE (00:47):
I left the broadcasting monitor on,
so I thought that thething was looping.
CHARLIE BENNETT: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (00:53):
undefined
OK.
So we've got a thumbsup from everybody.
And the reason thatwe need a thumbs up
is because we justhijacked the air studio,
just stepped in andsaid, we're going
to switch over fromthe production studio
to the air studio, despite thefact that the computer's not
working in here.
Because we need thespace for our talk show.
(01:13):
So the chief engineeris coming in here.
FRED RASCOE (01:16):
It's crazy, but WREK engineers are the best.
So they're helping us out a lot.
CHARLIE BENNETT (01:20):
Yes, they are.
And they're givingus a lot of support.
Fred, you want meto start the show?
FRED RASCOE (01:25):
Please do.
CHARLIE BENNETT (01:27):
You are listening to WREK Atlanta,
and this is Lost in theStacks, the research-library
rock-and-roll radio show.
I'm Charlie Bennett inthe studio with a calamity
and everybody else.
Each week on Lost in theStacks, we pick a theme
and then use it to create amix of music and library talk.
Whichever you're herefor, we hope you dig it.
FRED RASCOE (01:47):
And our show today is called a disaster-- no,
it's not.
It's not.
The show today is calledThe Past in the Future.
Hang on a second.
Wasn't that the nameof the show last week?
CHARLIE BENNETT (01:59):
I know everything's screwed up,
Fred, but don't worry.
FRED RASCOE (02:01):
OK.
MARLEE GIVENS (02:01):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you're almost right.
But last week, for ourhistorical reading club,
we looked at thefuture in the past.
Today, we're talkingabout a research lab
in the GeorgiaTech Library, where
you can explorehow old technology
affects our current lives.
And that means we'll be talkingabout the past in the future.
FRED RASCOE (02:20):
That seems legit.
OK, I'm going to start again.
I need a whole reseton this whole day.
OK.
Our show today is calledThe Past in the Future.
Deja vu.
This is part 5 in our series,the Georgia Tech Library
Guidebook.
MARLEE GIVENS (02:34):
On the first Friday of each month,
we visit a site inthe guidebook and talk
about a space or service inthe Georgia Tech Library.
ALEX MCGEE (02:41):
Our space today isn't just a space,
it's a service anda research concern.
It's retroTECH.
The retroTECH space is on thethird floor of Crosland Tower,
but its mission iseverywhere and everywhen.
MARLEE GIVENS (02:54):
retroTECH is here to help Georgia Tech create
the future by exploringand preserving
our technological past.
ALEX MCGEE (03:01):
Through retroTECH, we
want to learn more about howour lives shape technology
and how technology shapes ourlives through our history.
CHARLIE BENNETT (03:08):
And the vision of retroTECH
is to inspire a cultureof longterm thinking,
ongoing access totechnological heritage,
peer-to-peer discovery,and individual empowerment.
That's the best part.
FRED RASCOE (03:20):
And our songs today are about changes, technology,
and looking forward andbackward at the same time.
retroTECH is all about helpingus see how changes in technology
help us look forwardwhile we're looking back.
It's like pushingin two directions
on the timeline at once.
So let's start with"Pushin Forward Back"
by Temple of the Dog righthere on Lost in the Stack.
CHARLIE BENNETT (03:42):
Fred, Thank you so much for that.
[TEMPLE OF THE DOG, "PUSHINFORWARD BACK"]
ALEX MCGEE (03:57):
That was "Pushin Forward Back"
by Temple of the Dog.
This is Lost in the Stacks.
And our show today is calledThe Past in the Future.
And it's all about retroTECHat the Georgia Tech Library.
This is the fifth in our GeorgiaTech Library Guidebook series.
On the first Fridayof each month,
we visit a sitefrom the guidebook
featuring a space or servicein the Georgia Tech Library.
CHARLIE BENNETT: And our guides today (04:20):
undefined
are past and futureguests Dr. Dillon Henry
and Cliff Landis from Archivesand Special Collections
at the Georgia Tech Library.
Dillon is the digital-- andI got to say this word now
on air--
the digital"a-session-ing" archivist.
ALEX MCGEE (04:34):
Accessioning.
DILLON HENRY (04:35):
Accessioning.
CHARLIE BENNETT (04:36):
Accessioning.
Thank you, everyone.
And Cliff is the digitalcuration archivist.
Welcome back to the show.
CLIFF LANDIS (04:41):
Glad to be here.
Good to see you.
[LAUGHTER]
CHARLIE BENNETT (04:44):
You're both a little shell-shocked by just how
weird the studio is right now.
And so are we, so that's OK.
DILLON HENRY (04:50):
Well, this is my first time being in the studio.
CHARLIE BENNETT (04:53):
It's a wonderful introduction for you.
So let's talk about retroTECH.
This is the guidebook.
We're on the third floorof the Crosland tower.
We're walking intothe retroTECH lab.
What's in there?
DILLON HENRY (05:06):
Well, if you walk into the retroTECH lab,
you will see an array ofmonitors and some tables.
And then if you step inand look to the right,
you will see alittle alcove area
with a number of old CRTtelevisions, video game
consoles, vinyl record player.
(05:29):
You'll see some oldcameras on the shelves,
some scientificinstruments, laptops, other
just vintage technology.
You got some floppy disksup there, some zip disks,
and all that good stuff.
CHARLIE BENNETT (05:44):
So it sounds like the collection of equipment
is the more important part thanthe array of computer screens.
DILLON HENRY (05:50):
Correct, yes.
CHARLIE BENNETT (05:52):
You mentioned a lot of kinds of things.
Do you have a favoritespecific thing
in the retroTECH collectionthat we can focus in on?
DILLON HENRY (06:00):
Oh, gosh, that is a really good question.
Oh, there's so manyto choose from.
One thing-- oh, go ahead, Cliff.
CLIFF LANDIS (06:11):
Oh I was just going to say the math grenade
I think is one of--
DILLON HENRY (06:15):
That's coming in.
CLIFF LANDIS (06:15):
--my favorite--
DILLON HENRY (06:16):
Yeah, yeah.
CLIFF LANDIS (06:18):
We're building up our collection
of scientifichistorical equipment.
And one of those isbasically a calculator
that techs had to takeout into the field
to do calculations very quicklybefore the modern calculator was
invented.
And so we've been building upour calculation and mathematics
collection.
And I think that's one ofthe coolest-looking things
(06:39):
that we have.
CHARLIE BENNETT (06:39):
I think you jumped over why
it's called the math grenade.
DILLON HENRY (06:43):
Yeah, so it's handheld.
It's like a large capsulewith a little screw
or a little twistything on the top
that you use to performthe calculations.
And you can lift itup and pull it down--
it's like the pin or something.
CHARLIE BENNETT (06:56):
[LAUGHS] Wow.
DILLON HENRY (06:58):
And yeah.
CHARLIE BENNETT (07:00):
I'm almost positive that William Gibson
talked about a math grenadein Pattern Recognition.
DILLON HENRY (07:05):
He did.
He absolutely did.
And what's funny is-- becauseCliff brought this up.
And I had recently--
well, since I startedworking at Georgia Tech
and we have this hugescience fiction collection,
I was reading a bunchof William Gibson.
And I read that book, andthere was a character talking
about Curta calculators.
And I didn't know what that was.
So my brain just was like, oh,maybe that's a real thing, maybe
(07:28):
not, whatever.
It went in and out.
And then two years later,I'm researching stuff.
I'm like, oh, this Curtacalculator looks pretty cool.
And then Cliff islike, hey, this
is in William Gibson'sPattern Recognition.
And I read that,and I had no idea.
CHARLIE BENNETT (07:42):
We have in the script
that we should stop thesegment right about now,
but I'm not going to.
Because we really need to diginto what you all just did,
which is recognizing through asort of experiential learning
process the realityof a fiction,
reality of a design past.
Maybe I just said everythingthat needs to be said.
(08:03):
But any thoughts on what Ijust dumped on you there?
DILLON HENRY (08:07):
I guess I'll say that something that I see when--
and we can get more intothis after the break.
But when students comein and they'll play--
I'll set up, like, an oldMario Kart for Super Nintendo
or Nintendo 64.
And it's like, oh, I'veplayed a newer one.
And I know that there'ssome precedent for this,
but I never saw it or neverreally thought about it.
(08:30):
And that's not quitethe same thing,
but it's like this existence ofsomething that's almost mythical
because it's before your time.
CHARLIE BENNETT (08:38):
What was that feeling,
Cliff, when yousaw the real thing
that you had only read about?
CLIFF LANDIS (08:43):
It's been very cool to come
into the collections andsee all of the material that
is historical.
Because Georgia Tech isvery focused on the present,
very focused on the future, andimproving the human condition.
So to have these touch pointsto our technological past
and to be able to not just seebut hold these things that are
(09:06):
where all of our moderntech really comes from
has been really cool.
It's a great way to connectstudents and anybody who
visits to theseintergenerational conversations
around technology.
You can't help but chat about,like, oh, when I was growing up,
I played on theoriginal NES system.
Or I had an Amiga whatever--
CHARLIE BENNETT (09:30):
Deep cut.
[LAUGHTER]
CLIFF LANDIS (09:33):
So that's been cool for me.
MARLEE GIVENS (09:35):
This is Lost in the Stacks.
We'll be back with more of thesedeep cuts with Dillon Henry
and Cliff Landisafter a music set.
File this set underBF637 dot C4 no dot S45.
[LAUGHTER]
[BILLY JOEL, "IT'S STILL ROCKAND ROLL TO ME"]
(09:55):
(SINGING) Everybody'stalking about the new sound
Funny, but it's stillrock and roll to me
CHARLIE BENNETT (10:14):
That was "It's Still Rock and Roll to Me"
by Billy Joel.
And, yes, some of us weresinging along in our heads.
And before that,"Changer" by Andy Shauf.
Song's about watchingchange happen,
whether we like it or not.
[ROCK MUSIC]
MARLEE GIVENS (10:32):
This is Lost in the Stacks.
And today's show is calledThe past in the Future.
It's another episode for ourGeorgia Tech Library Guidebook.
CHARLIE BENNETT (10:39):
We're talking about the retroTECH lab,
third floor of Crosland Tower.
And our guides are Dr.Dillon Henry and Cliff
Landis from the Archives andSpecial Collections Department.
OK, so we gotstarted on retroTECH.
And the whole math grenadething really set the tone.
But what happens in the lab?
Why are those things there?
And what are youall doing with them?
DILLON HENRY (11:01):
Well, they're there so people can access them.
I know that, as a formerstudent for a long time myself,
it can be kind of intimidating,going into a library
or going into an archive.
And so having thisspace with stuff
set up where we can mediatepeople's interaction--
and especiallywith old technology
(11:22):
that they might notbe familiar with.
Like, they might not know howto change a console cartridge
or even pushing a button to openthe disk slot because they're
used to just sliding somethinginto a disk tray or whatever.
So we're there so we canmediate this experience.
CHARLIE BENNETT (11:40):
I feel like the definition of old technology
here is not just something thatwas created a long time ago
but also maybe is outof use a little bit
has started to become less partof our everyday technology use.
DILLON HENRY (11:57):
Definitely.
And that happens very quicklyin the technological sphere.
If you look at a NintendoEntertainment System from
the late '80s and then look at aPlayStation 5 or something like
that and how many generationsof video game consoles have been
in between there, there's beensuch crazy leaps and bounds
(12:18):
where something is obsoletewithin a matter of years.
CHARLIE BENNETT (12:21):
And there's a lot of gaming stuff in there.
DILLON HENRY (12:24):
Correct.
And part of that isbecause, well, it's
important to preservebecause it could be lost.
The Software PreservationNetwork released a paper--
I believe it wastwo years ago or so,
saying that 87% of gamesthat they called retro, which
(12:46):
they said was 2010 or earlier--
CHARLIE BENNETT (12:48):
Come on.
[LAUGHTER]
Get out.
[LAUGHTER]
DILLON HENRY (12:52):
But 87% of those games
are not available for purchasefrom their original rights
holders, which posesa problem if we're
talking aboutpreservation and being
able to have access to things.
They say we lost 90% of filmsfrom the silent film era,
and we're in danger of doingthe same thing with games.
(13:15):
And games are such animportant part of culture.
CHARLIE BENNETT (13:18):
And it's not just having the media
that something is on.
It's also having whatcan access that media.
DILLON HENRY (13:24):
Correct.
I had a group of students,they scheduled an appointment
and they came in because theywere working on a game project.
And one of the students wantedto recreate some sort of effect
from one of theFinal Fantasy games
from the original PlayStation.
And he had his teammembers come in
(13:44):
because there's no replacementfor the actual tactile
sensation.
You're putting in the disk.
You're hearing itspin and load up.
You're putting up the CRT.
And these graphics weredesigned with the CRT
in mind, with the dithering thatyou would see on the screen.
So if you see thegraphics in HD,
(14:06):
it looks bad, to put itone way, because that's not
how they were designed.
They were designedwith the CRT in mind.
So there's just no replacementfor the actual hardware in situ
and using it yourself.
CHARLIE BENNETT (14:22):
Some folks listening might not
know what CRT actually is.
CLIFF LANDIS (14:28):
Cathode-ray tube--
it was the big glassscreens that you
would have for the originalTVs that would come out,
where an electron beam just goesacross the screen really fast
to create a picture in motion.
CHARLIE BENNETT (14:41):
I just felt vertigo
when you describedthe beam going across.
I'm like, oh,yeah, that's right.
That's the flicker.
So this not eventhe big, honking TV.
It's the mid-rangebig, honking TV.
Are you doing collectiondevelopment on the equipment?
Are you searching for stuff?
DILLON HENRY (15:02):
Yes, yeah, collection development
on hardware and software.
And I try to curate based onmy own knowledge of not just
video game history but alsocultural history and memory,
(15:22):
for instance.
Before I took over thelab, I suggested a purchase
for a Philips CD-i anda few games for it,
such as Hotel Marioand a few Zelda games--
Wand of Gamelon.
Is that what it was called?
And the thing was--
CHARLIE BENNETT (15:42):
Acting like you don't know.
DILLON HENRY (15:44):
--the console was a commercial failure.
It was a total flop.
It was an early attemptat using CDs for games.
And what's notable is thatNintendo allowed other parties
to create these Mario andthese Zelda games that
had cutscenes in themthat were poorly animated,
(16:08):
poorly voice acted.
And with the adventof the YouTube era,
people took these cutscenesand they made they edits--
some not suitable for work.
And so you had this--
CHARLIE BENNETT (16:21):
Due to copyright restrictions, right?
DILLON HENRY (16:23):
Oh, yes, of course.
And so you had this consoleand these games that were not
successful at their time orfor their intended purpose
but became part ofthe cultural zeitgeist
in a new era and a new form--
so the way thata game can become
kind of a cultural artifact,even if the game itself
wasn't somethingparticularly noteworthy.
CHARLIE BENNETT (16:42):
I feel like you just
summed up one of theresearch concerns
of retroTECH all at once.
You are listening toLost in the Stacks.
And we'll hear more aboutretroTECH, which I guess--
what-- 15 years ago?
Come on-- on the leftside of the hour.
[ROCK MUSIC]
MIKE GIARLO (17:04):
All right.
This is Mike Giarlo,the architect.
My job is APIs, AIPs, and IPAs.
You are listening to Lost inthe Stacks on WREK Atlanta.
[ROCK MUSIC]
(SINGING) [INAUDIBLE]
CHARLIE BENNETT (17:25):
Today's show is called The past in the Future.
We're talking about theretroTECH lab in the Georgia
Tech Library.
One of the things that retroTECHalways brings mind to me
is the Long Now Foundation,an organization founded
to promote longterm thinking,much like retroTECH is doing.
One of its foundingboard members
was the musician Brian Eno, whocoined the term Long Now, along
(17:47):
with a bunch of other stuff.
Here's an excerpt from his essayThe Big Here and the Long Now.
"Now is never just a moment.
The long now is the recognitionthat the precise moment
you're in grows out of the pastand is a seed for the future.
The longer your senseof now, the more
past and future it includes.
(18:09):
It's ironic that at the timewhen humankind is at a peak
of its technical powers, able tocreate huge global changes that
will echo down the centuries,most of our social systems
seem geared toincreasingly short nows.
We struggle to negotiate our waythrough an atmosphere of utopian
promises and dystopianthreats, a minefield
(18:30):
studded with pots of treasure.
We face a future wherealmost anything could happen.
Will we be crippled by globalwarming, weapons proliferation,
and species depletion,or liberated
by space travel,world government,
and molecule-sized computers?
We don't even want tostart thinking about it.
This is our peculiar form ofselfishness, a studied disregard
(18:51):
of the future.
Our astonishing success asa technical civilization
has led us to complacency, toexpect that things will probably
just keep getting better.
But there is no reasonto believe this.
So we'll chew on thatin the retroTECH lab.
File this set under TK452.T65.
(19:12):
[DAFT PUNK, "TECHNOLOGIC"] Buyit, use it, break it, fix it
Trash it, changeit, mail upgrade it
Charge it, point it,zoom it, press it
Snap it, work it, quick erase it
Write it, cut it, paste it,save it, load it, check it
[FATIMA, "TECHNOLOGY"]
ALEX MCGEE (19:28):
That was "Technology"
by Fatima and, before that,"Technologic" by Daft Punk--
songs about thetechnology in our lives.
CREW (19:39):
Oh, no bump.
CHARLIE BENNETT (19:40):
So we just had a bump.
Alex, go ahead andstart the next segment.
ALEX MCGEE (19:44):
Yeah, this is Lost in the Stacks.
And our show today is partof the Georgia Tech Library
Guidebook.
This episode is calledThe Past in the Future,
and it's all about retroTECH.
CHARLIE BENNETT (19:53):
We're speaking with Dillon Henry and Cliff
Landis from the GeorgiaTech Library's Archives
and Special Collections.
And two of the--
I'm not going to call youmasterminds because that has
a different tone these days.
But you do the stuffthat's in retroTECH, right?
What are your plans?
Why does retroTECH connect towhat you do at the library?
DILLON HENRY (20:15):
Well, we're both digital archivists.
I don't know if youwant to take this.
I've been hogging the mic.
So if you want to--
CLIFF LANDIS (20:20):
Oh.
Yeah, sure.
I think the future ofretroTECH hopefully
will be tied a little bitcloser to the instruction
and research that happenshere at the institute.
We've been able to do someof these initial partnerships
with folks across campus,which has been pretty awesome.
But I think part of thechallenge of any sort of retro
(20:41):
technology is that we know thatit's not going to last forever--
so trying to keep italive as long as possible.
So one of the approachesto digital curation
is something calledencapsulation.
And that's whereyou try and take
the technology that actuallyplays the media that you're
trying to play and keep it alltogether and keep it all alive
(21:03):
so that somebody can do-- likewhat Dillon's students were
trying to do-- come inand have the experience
of dealing with thistechnology hands
on, seeing it withyour own eyes,
touching the keyboard or thecontroller, interacting with it
as it was created tobe interacted with.
But as time goes by,we're going to have
(21:23):
to shift more towardsemulation, because we're
going to have to usenewer technologies
to provide a playback forsome of the older stuff that
is no longer accessible.
So we have to takemultiple approaches,
trying to keep this stuffalive as long as possible.
DILLON HENRY (21:39):
Yeah.
And part of that is if thisstuff is designed to be used,
which also kind of makesit unique in that--
typically, witharchival material,
it has to be verydelicately handled.
But the point is, we have stuffbecause the point is to play it.
They're games.
And using technology can lead toits non-use, especially when you
(22:02):
have stuff that'sold and finicky.
And then how do you get--like, if you have an Apple II
and the floppydrive stops working?
Not that that's a casethat's currently--
[LAUGHTER]
Well, it's like, howdo you-- you can't just
go to an Apple store today andplop an Apple IIe on the counter
(22:24):
and say, hey, fix this.
CHARLIE BENNETT (22:25):
And is there a junkyard for computers?
Can you go and rip a driveout of something somewhere?
[LAUGHS]
CLIFF LANDIS (22:33):
If you go on eBay, you will see a lot of old tech
that is listed eitheras in working condition
or not in working condition.
So part of the challengeis that the people who know
how to do repair are dying.
CHARLIE BENNETT (22:45):
Wow.
CLIFF LANDIS (22:46):
The folks--
CHARLIE BENNETT: Not metaphorically? (22:47):
undefined
CLIFF LANDIS (22:48):
Not metaphorically-- literally.
And we encounterthis when it comes
to even things like 8 millimeterfilm, any sort of older
technology.
The people who not only havethe machines but know how to fix
the machines whenthey break down,
they might be trying tooutsource to get something 3D
printed in order toreplace a component
(23:11):
because nobody's manufacturingthe parts to VHSes anymore,
VHS tape decks.
So we're trying to keep it aliveas long as humanly possible.
But when we can't,we try to migrate it
to a format that canlive a little bit longer
or, if it's an interactivetool, create some way
to emulate it so that folkscan still have that experience.
(23:33):
But yes, we aresometimes buying stuff
to cobble togethera thing that works.
CHARLIE BENNETT (23:37):
Yeah.
You've mentionedemulation a couple times.
Can you describe thatwith a little more detail?
Because I think maybe--
certainly, I know alittle bit about it.
And some peoplemight not know what
that means at all,when you're talking
about this softwareand these hardware.
CLIFF LANDIS (23:53):
Yeah.
So emulation iswhere you're trying
to emulate what theoriginal experience is like.
And so a lot of emulationhas been supremely popular
in retro gaming in particular.
Because a lot ofthe computer geeks
and programmers andcoders who love games also
love to figure out waysto keep these games
(24:14):
playable so that they cancontinue to enjoy them.
CHARLIE BENNETT (24:16):
Half the time I play Galaga,
it's on a computer--
CLIFF LANDIS (24:19):
Right, exactly.
CHARLIE BENNETT (24:19):
--that's attached to a joystick, not
an actual machine.
CLIFF LANDIS (24:22):
Exactly, exactly.
So we have our little timemachine emulator in retroTECH
that allows you to play oldgames from Amiga, NES, N64.
DILLON HENRY (24:32):
Well, and I'll add something as well--
is that with emulation,some of these retro games
still have verythriving communities.
For instance, a big part ofmy retro gaming experience
was getting into SuperMario World ROM hacks.
So you take Super MarioWorld, which was released,
(24:53):
like, 35 years ago forthe Super Nintendo.
And what happens is--
CHARLIE BENNETT (24:57):
Wait, wait.
I should say,Cliff had a moment.
CLIFF LANDIS (25:01):
I did.
I couldn't helpbut roll my eyes.
ALEX MCGEE (25:03):
He was the melting emoji face.
CLIFF LANDIS (25:05):
35 years, jeez.
DILLON HENRY (25:07):
But what it is is people,
they take the assets fromthe game and they make--
it's called kaizo from theJapanese word for rearranged--
and so kaizo SuperMario World hacks,
where they try to makestuff as difficult as--
extremely difficultfor humans to do,
with all kinds of weird tricks.
(25:29):
And you really have to know indetail how some of the mechanics
and some of the physics,including weird sprite
spawning or advanced--
CHARLIE BENNETT: Dillon, you know (25:41):
undefined
you're starting to say things Idon't understand at all, right?
DILLON HENRY (25:45):
But the point being is that people today
in 2025 these decades later arestill using this base game in--
they're still creatingand, in new ways,
they're still interacting withthis base game from that time.
So that's another waythat people contemporarily
(26:06):
are still interacting with thisold technology in new ways.
CLIFF LANDIS (26:09):
It's not static.
It actually can continue tochange as long as people are
interested in engaging with it.
CHARLIE BENNETT (26:15):
I love a show like this
where literally,every two minutes, we
have another show idea justkind of drop into our laps.
But we're out of time.
So this is Lost in the Stacks.
And today, we visited theretroTECH lab a little bit
on the third floor of CroslandTower for the GT Library
Guidebook.
MARLEE GIVENS (26:35):
Our guests were doctor Dillon Henry,
digital accessioningarchivist, and Cliff Landis,
digital curationarchivist in the Archives
and Special CollectionsDepartment of the Georgia Tech
Library.
Thanks to both of youfor being on the show.
DILLON HENRY (26:47):
Thanks for having us.
CLIFF LANDIS (26:49):
Thanks for having us.
And retroTECH tech is openMonday through Thursday.
DILLON HENRY (26:52):
Yep, 10:00 AM until noon.
And whenever we have eventslike Charlie's Long Now
lecture series andthen there will be--
CHARLIE BENNETT (26:59):
Coming up soon, coming fast.
DILLON HENRY (27:01):
--on March 13--
do I have that right?
Yep, March 13 from 4:30 to6:30 in retroTECH, third floor,
Crosland tower, there willbe Super Smash Brothers
for the Nintendo 64 andSuper Smash Brothers Melee
for the GameCube.
CHARLIE BENNETT (27:19):
I think I just figured out
one of the ways you're goingto keep this thing going,
popular support.
File this set under PS3572.05S6.
[ROCK MUSIC] Could itbe you're coming round
[GRAY MATTER, "RETROSPECT"]
(27:39):
ALEX MCGEE (27:47):
That was "Retrospect" by Gray Matter.
And before that,"Time Moves Slow"
by BADBADNOTGOODwith Sam Herring.
And before that, "Next Summer"by King Radon and the Noble
Gases--
songs about time passing by andthe new becoming old, or rather,
retro.
[ROCK MUSIC]
CHARLIE BENNETT: [LAUGHS] I'm not laughing (28:07):
undefined
because Fred miscued the bump.
I'm laughing at Fred's faceafter he miscued the bump.
It was kind of beautiful.
Today's show was calledThe Past in The Future,
and it's like the retro inthe now and the librarians
in the studio.
And we visited the retroTECHlab at the Georgia Tech Library.
OK, for fun, get all loose--
(28:29):
let's end the show with aquick survey of everybody.
I want to know what yourfavorite piece of retro
technology is.
And you can defineretro however you want.
Mine, of course, is theSelectric in the display case
down in science fiction, whichI am thinking all the time about
whether I can steal it or not.
And I know I can't.
I keep saying it so peoplewill keep me accountable
(28:52):
not stealing the Selectric.
Fred, what about you?
FRED RASCOE (28:55):
It's a piece of retro technology
that I currently stilluse, my clock radio alarm
clock, which I still useto wake up in the morning.
MARLEE GIVENS (29:04):
Oh, that's cool.
CHARLIE BENNETT (29:05):
Yeah.
Marlee?
MARLEE GIVENS (29:06):
I have a fond memory
of the good old floppydisk drive that would just
make that comfortingwhir, that you
knew it was doing something,even if it was not
doing the right thing.
You knew was doing something.
How about you, Cody?
CODY (29:21):
I think mine's got to be the music series Now That's What
I Call Music CD collection.
Not only is an old pieceof technology, the CD,
but it speaks tothe way people used
to consume music-- abusiness model that
makes no sense anymore.
I remember cleaningout my aunt's house
and we found Now That'sWhat I Call Music 2.
And I felt like I hadfound a piece of history.
(29:43):
What about you, Alex?
ALEX MCGEE (29:44):
That's a very solid answer.
I am going to say the Edisonphonograph that-- we do
have one in our retroTECH lab.
But I had first encountered onewhen I was working up at MIT.
And it is just--
the honking horn,I just love it.
It looks silly and retro.
(30:04):
And how about you, Cliff?
CLIFF LANDIS (30:07):
I am going to go back to the beginning
and say fire--
[LAUGHTER]
--one of theoriginal technologies
that has helped humanityprogress as far as it has.
What about you, Dillon?
DILLON HENRY (30:19):
If you'll indulge me, I have two.
I have my basic answer,which I would say the PS2.
I think that's just myfavorite console, just
excellent era for gaming.
And then just soft, nostalgicanswer is AOL dial-up,
just the comfortingscreeching and just
the [IMITATES DOOR CREAKING]door opening, you've got mail--
(30:41):
just the--
CHARLIE BENNETT (30:42):
Awesome.
DILLON HENRY (30:42):
old, classic AOL dial-up.
CHARLIE BENNETT (30:44):
I love all those answers, although I
think fire was cheating.
[LAUGHTER]
Alex, go ahead andgrab Cliff's mic
so he doesn't say anything else.
And with that, let'sroll the credits.
[UPBEAT MUSIC]
ALEX MCGEE (31:05):
Lost in the Stacks is
a collaboration between rackAtlanta and the Georgia Tech
Library.
Written and produced byAlex McGee, Charlie Bennett,
Fred Rascoe, and Marlee Givens.
MARLEE GIVENS (31:15):
Legal counsel and a nice, comfy gaming chair
were provided by the BurrusIntellectual Property Law Group
in Atlanta, Georgia.
CHARLIE BENNETT (31:21):
It's incredibly comfortable.
Special thanks to Cliff andDillon for being on the show,
to our old teammateWendy Hagenmaier
for launching retroTECH, and allour colleagues keeping it going.
And thanks, as always, toeach and every one of you
for listening.
ALEX MCGEE (31:36):
Our web page is library.gatech.e
du/lostinthestacks, where you'llfind our most recent episode,
a link to our podcastfeed, and a web form
if you want to tell us what yourfavorite retro technology is.
MARLEE GIVENS (31:47):
Next week, one of Georgia Tech's Britten Fellows
talks about her research onthe value of citizen science.
FRED RASCOE (31:54):
It's time for our last song today I think,
the way things aregoing in the studio--
I don't know-- optimism.
And to emphasize the pointthat the term retro is relative
depending on one'sperspective, as we've
heard a lot today, let'sclose with a song from 2018--
CHARLIE BENNETT (32:10):
Fred, I will drag you out of the studio.
FRED RASCOE (32:12):
--which is almost the most recent song
on today's playlist.
But according to my17-year-old daughter,
who is an obsessive K-popmusic fan, this track is old.
CHARLIE BENNETT (32:23):
OK, I withdraw my objection.
FRED RASCOE (32:25):
And so it's apt that the title of this track is
"Retro".
From Korea, this is retroby the k-pop legends SHINee
right here on Lostin the Stacks.
Have a great weekend, everybody.
[UPBEAT MUSIC]
Just a second, just a second.
CHARLIE BENNETT (32:46):
Fred, you know the mics are still on, right?
FRED RASCOE (32:49):
Just a second.
[LAUGHTER]
This is possibly myfavorite episode so far.
[SHINEE, "RETRO"] Hey, yeah
I don't know what it is but
This girl got mefeeling all emotional
Let me tell you real quick
[SINGING IN KOREAN]
(33:10):
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