February 14, 2025 • 60 mins
Guest: Dr. Megan Mericle, School of Literature, Media, and Communication at Georgia Tech.
First broadcast February 14 2025. Transcript at https://hdl.handle.net/1853/77079
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"So if you see a gross bug in your backyard, why not take a picture of it?
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
[CLIP - TIFFANY HADDISH]: I think I'm a scientist, (00:00):
undefined
personally.
I think I'm alightweight scientist.
People always say to me,"When you first got money,
what did you buy?
What's the first big purchase?
Your first big purchase?"
I went straight to Amazon,and I bought me a microscope,
because I was like, I need tosee what the [BLEEP] going on
out here.
[THEME MUSIC]
CHARLIE BENNETT (00:41):
You are listening to WREK Atlanta,
we hope.
And this is Lost in theStacks-- the Research Library
Rock'n'Roll Radio Show.
I'm Charlie Bennett in theunreliable studio once again.
And the gang's all here,plus some not some,
and an extra person, anda guest to be named later.
I'm just so excitedwe're on air,
I'm going to skip overthe introductions.
Each week on Lost in theStacks, we pick a theme,
(01:03):
and then use it to create amix of music and library talk.
Whichever you tune infor, we hope you dig it.
FRED RASCOE (01:09):
And our show today is called Citizen Science
Communication.
MARLEE GIVENS (01:14):
Now, while we love our research faculty
here in academia, there's a lotof beneficial scientific work
that is contributed by everydayfolks just doing science out
of personal interest.
ALEX MCGEE (01:25):
This may naturally lead one to ask questions.
Like, what makes acitizen scientist?
What does a citizenscientist do?
FRED RASCOE (01:32):
How does their work intersect
with professional scientists?
MARLEE GIVENS (01:36):
How does citizen science
get communicated to the world?
CHARLIE BENNETT (01:39):
And if I take a picture of a really
gross bug in my backyardand post it on social media,
am I doing citizen science?
FRED RASCOE (01:46):
Those are all questions
that our guest todayhas thought a lot about.
CHARLIE BENNETT: Even that bug one. (01:50):
undefined
FRED RASCOE (01:52):
Well, maybe.
We'll find out.
Our songs today areabout the citizens who
do scientific workabout taking note
of the life and environmentalconditions around us,
and about being a closeobserver of nature.
And we kick off with,appropriately enough,
"Citizen Science,"by J. Marinelli,
right here on Lostin the Stacks.
CHARLIE BENNETT (02:11):
Title track.
That's awesome, Fred.
[J. MARINELLI, "CITIZENSCIENCE"] Like a child of Eden.
MARLEE GIVENS (02:20):
You just heard "Citizen Science," by J.
Marinelli.
This is Lost in the Stacks,and our show today is called,
"Citizen Science Communication."
FRED RASCOE (02:28):
And our guest is Dr. Megan Mericle, a Marion L.
Brittain Postdoctoral Fellow inthe School of Literature, Media,
and Communicationhere at Georgia Tech.
Megan, welcome to the show.
MEGAN MERICLE (02:39):
Thank you.
Yeah.
FRED RASCOE (02:40):
So we met when I came
and did a little instructionin one of your classes.
And we got to talking,and I mentioned I was--
talked about scholarlycommunication sometimes,
and sometimes talkedabout it on the show.
And you said thatone of your interests
was citizen sciencecommunication, which
made me think, OK,well, we've got
to talk about that on the show.
So before we dive in,let's define some terms.
(03:01):
What is citizen science?
MEGAN MERICLE (03:03):
Yeah.
So citizen science actually hasa pretty contested definition
because a lot ofdifferent things
can be consideredcitizen science.
And there's a lotof different terms
other than citizenscience that are used
to describe these practices.
So like from community scienceto participatory science,
there's a wholeconstellation of terms.
And so part of my work islooking at those terms,
(03:24):
and what they mean.
But I would define citizenscience as any effort
where people with differentrelationships to science
are collaborating togetheron a scientific project.
So that might includeprofessional scientists, members
of the community, activists,people taking bug pictures
on their phones.
CHARLIE BENNETT: Although, wait, you (03:42):
undefined
said workingcollaboratively, right?
MEGAN MERICLE (03:45):
Yes.
CHARLIE BENNETT (03:45):
So there does seem to be--
there has to be a kind ofsynergistic relationship.
It's not just, I'mdoing citizen scientist
if I'm taking pictures of bugs.
MEGAN MERICLE (03:54):
Right.
Well, I kind of like AdamSavage, the MythBuster,
his definition ofscience of like,
the difference between messingaround and doing science
is writing it down.
So being able to writeit down and share it,
I think, is a key partof citizen science,
and what makes thatdifferent from taking
a big picture in your backyardthat only you look at.
CHARLIE BENNETT (04:13):
And do you feel like there's
any actual like substance toall of the different-- all
the different word choices,all the different participatory
community?
Do those matter, oris it all the thing
that we're trying to talk about?
MEGAN MERICLE (04:28):
I think it's all the thing
we're trying to talk about.
But I think the way that we goabout talking about it really
matters, and it mattersbecause it changes
how we view people who arenot professional scientists,
and how we viewtheir contributions.
So, like a keyshift in this area
has been the move from citizenscience to community science,
(04:49):
because citizen science isnot only enacted by citizens.
It's enacted by a bunchof different members
of the community,who may or may not
have legal citizenship status.
So I think it's importantto look at the word citizen
and what work it'sdoing, especially
from my backgroundin writing studies.
CHARLIE BENNETT: And Alex, you talked (05:04):
undefined
about a switch fromcitizen archiving
to community archiving.
That seemed to probably happen--
ALEX MCGEE (05:11):
More of the collective, I think, the--
that it's a group ofpeople or a community
that we're serving, asopposed to a single person.
And I like what you justsaid about citizenship, that,
that not beingcentral to us engaging
with these folks, right?
MEGAN MERICLE (05:30):
Yeah.
And then questions of like, whodo we consider the community?
And if I'm acting asa community member
and I'm not acting inmy role as a teacher
or as a researcher, am I amember of the community, or am I
excluded from that group becauseI have a doctorate degree,
you know?
I think it's a complexsystem, and we sometimes
draw hard lines betweenwho is the community
(05:52):
and who is academia.
And so part of mywork is looking
at where those lines getdrawn and the rhetorical work
around them.
Yeah.
FRED RASCOE (06:00):
And you do--
you're a professor here,you have a doctorate,
but it's not in ascientific field.
So how did you get interestedin citizen science?
MEGAN MERICLE (06:11):
Yeah.
So actually, it beganfor me in the classroom.
In talking to my students,I had this one encounter
when I was teaching aclass for students in STEM,
and it was a writing-centered--first-year writing class.
And I asked them, like--
I referred to them inconversation as scientists,
and they kind of like,balked at the term.
And they were like,"We're not scientists."
And I'm like, "Well,what are you then?
(06:32):
You're STEM students."
CHARLIE BENNETT (06:34):
Did they straight up tell you, "Wait,
stop.
We're not scientists."--
MEGAN MERICLE (06:36):
Right, yeah.
CHARLIE BENNETT (06:37):
--in class at that moment?
MEGAN MERICLE (06:38):
Yeah.
CHARLIE BENNETT (06:39):
Wow.
MEGAN MERICLE (06:39):
I just saw the look on their faces,
and I paused, and we stopped,and we talked about it.
And finally, onestudent raised her hand,
and she was like,"We're not scientists.
We're scientists-in-training."
And everybody kind ofnodded and agreed on that.
So I think it's interestinghow we withhold or take
on these identities asscientists, as experts.
And so that's really keyin my work with students
(07:00):
in the classroom,and so I wanted
to explore what thatmeans in the community
beyond the classroom.
And so that's oneof the ways that I
got involved inresearching communication
practices and citizen science.
CHARLIE BENNETT (07:11):
Do you--
do you blend that intothe writing courses?
Do you try to--
do you try to makethem recognize
that they're not in training,but they're actually actively
participating earlyon when you give them
the topics or theassignments in the class?
MEGAN MERICLE (07:27):
Yeah, definitely.
And I think that's a challenge.
I mean, I understandthat challenge, too.
Like still feeling weirdabout being called an expert,
and like, what doesthat term mean?
But yeah, I definitely talkto my students about that,
and ask them to definetheir areas of expertise,
and I think, really break downthe like, individualistic way
we sometimes look atexpertise, and help
(07:48):
them realize that they'rebuilding expertise together
as like aninterdisciplinary community,
and that their positionalitiesas students matter.
CHARLIE BENNETT (07:56):
Yeah, because if we go by that Adam Savage
definition, then collegestudents have become scientists.
They have written it down.
And it's only if youthink to yourself, oh,
because I had someonetelling me what to do,
or who was going to checkon my work, that somehow
made me not a scientist,only a scientist-in-training.
But then, that's the role ofthis citizen scientist at this
(08:18):
point, in terms of a-- bigquote marks-- "authority figure"
in the scientific community youare working collaboratively with
and learning from.
Right?
MEGAN MERICLE (08:28):
Right.
And we need to all buildthat accountability together,
I think.
Like the community needs tocheck scientists and make sure
that what scientists are doingis meaningful for the community.
But then thescientists also need
to check citizen scientistsor community scientists
and make sure thatthey're adhering
to protocol and thesestandards around science.
Those are important, too, andnot see it as unidirectional.
CHARLIE BENNETT (08:52):
I just flashed on Francis Bacon
stuffing a chicken fullof snow, just to see,
and like that was a veryeminent scientist at the time.
No one was checking up on him.
Do you all know that story?
This is supposedly how the--
Yeah, everyone justwent, [EXHALE].
What are you doing, buddy?
So the story is, and it's justa story, that Francis Bacon--
(09:12):
not the painter,but the scientist,
great in staturationFrancis Bacon--
he died becausehe caught a cold,
because he hadthis idea of like,
maybe we can use coldto preserve meat.
And so he jumpedout of the coach
and stuffed a chicken with snow.
Where is the chicken?
When did the chicken die?
I don't know, butyou're nodding.
(09:33):
You know this story, thispossibly apocryphal story.
MEGAN MERICLE (09:36):
It sounds familiar.
Yes.
CHARLIE BENNETT (09:40):
But let me lead into, didn't all scientists
used to be citizen scientists?
Nobody had-- nobody hadthe doctorate, right?
Nobody had the-- no one had theeducation from Georgia Tech that
stamped them as an expert.
Just someone who did anexperiment was a scientist.
MEGAN MERICLE (09:57):
Yeah.
So that's actually oneof the arguments that's
used for citizen scientists.
Is that like, Charles Darwinwas a citizen scientist and all
of these early scientists.
But I think it's importantto be careful about the way
that the profession of sciencedeveloped, in like, they
were scientists ina very different way
than like people engaging incitizen science today are,
(10:20):
and keeping those lines clear.
Because like CharlesDarwin, for instance, like
had a different levelof access to science.
He had funding, he had anexpedition, and so, yeah,
being careful.
But I think there is some truthto, the origins of science
are in philosophy andlike gentlemen scholars
and natural philosophers.
And there was certainly a lot ofprivilege there in their ability
(10:42):
to access science, which Ithink is one of the things
that citizen science todayis trying to address.
Is this like ability to beable to do science, which is
expensive and time-consuming.
Yeah.
CHARLIE BENNETT (10:53):
I was thinking, accessing science can really
just be accessing money.
MEGAN MERICLE (10:56):
Yes.
CHARLIE BENNETT (10:57):
And this moment in time, that's
very important, also.
MEGAN MERICLE (11:00):
Right.
MARLEE GIVENS (11:01):
This is Lost in the Stacks,
and we will be back withmore about citizen science,
with Dr. Megan Mericle,after a music set.
CHARLIE BENNETT (11:08):
File this set under Q126.9.C43.
[SWANS, "LOVE OF LIFE"]
[THE CONSUMERS, "CONCERNEDCITIZEN"]
(11:30):
"Concerned Citizen," by The Consumers,
and before that, "Loveof Life," by the Swans.
Songs about everyday people whoappreciate the living world,
and people who providevital knowledge.
[THEME MUSIC]
ALEX MCGEE (11:45):
This is Lost in the Stacks,
and today's show is called"Citizen Science Communication."
Our guest is Dr. Megan Mericle,Postdoc Fellow at Georgia Tech,
who researches citizen science.
In our first segment, wetalked about the definition
of a citizen scientist.
And I feel like we werekind of just starting
to tease out this questionof access and privilege
(12:06):
in science, so I wantto keep going with that,
and ask, what does citizenscience mean in 2025?
MEGAN MERICLE (12:13):
Yeah.
So I think these questionsof privilege and access
are really important in2025, especially as we're
thinking more about whohistorically has not had access
to science, and thinking aboutmultiple marginalized people who
are raising issues like--
that are considering theirown local communities.
And I'm thinkingof several examples
(12:34):
that have really illustratedfor me that privilege of like,
who has access toscientific tools,
and who is safe doingscience in the field.
So there is an examplefrom Bobbi Wilson, who
was a young girl in NewJersey, who was exterminating
lanternflies, which arean invasive species that
has effects on trees.
And she was goingaround the trees,
(12:55):
and she had learnedabout this at school
and watched a video,nine years old,
spraying lanternflieson the trees
and killing themto save the trees.
And she did this like,every day after school.
And her neighborcalled the police,
because he saw someonegoing around spraying trees.
And luckily, the policearrived, mother explained
(13:18):
what was happening,and nothing happened,
but it could have reallybeen a tragic story.
And Bobbi Wilson's motherwent to the City Council
and talked about this issue.
The neighbor was like a memberof the local Republican Party,
and she asked, like, thisis someone in your party
like, who's doing this.
So I think, it justreally illustrates
that not everyoneis able to safely do
(13:40):
citizen science in the field.
CHARLIE BENNETT (13:42):
So access to science is not just,
do you have the tools,are you able to publish,
are you able to pullthe information?
But also, are youallowed to do the things
that we think of as science?
MEGAN MERICLE (13:55):
Right.
Yeah.
I think, we don't alwaysrealize that a lot
of these actionsaround citizen science,
around doing sciencein the field,
involve going to public places,maybe going on to private land,
and having to talk to people.
Like cases from this young girl,Bobbi Wilson, in New Jersey,
and like fromChris Cooper, which
(14:16):
was another very public exampleof a birder in The Ramble,
in Central Park, show us that.
FRED RASCOE (14:22):
And you didn't explicitly say,
but in these cases, race is--
MEGAN MERICLE (14:25):
Right.
FRED RASCOE (14:26):
--the issue that causes
the danger and theinability to access
what other privilegedfolks might be able to do.
MEGAN MERICLE (14:35):
Right, yeah.
Bobbi Wilson was ayoung Black girl,
and Chris Cooper beingan older Black birder--
CHARLIE BENNETT (14:40):
Yeah.
MEGAN MERICLE (14:41):
--in both cases.
Yeah.
CHARLIE BENNETT (14:42):
I'm flashing on a thing I saw.
Someone did a videoshowing what one column
of the periodictable, what they did
when you dropped them in water.
Like it starts withjust a little frothing,
but by the time youget to the bottom,
it explodes enoughto knock trees down.
They had to go out into adesolated area, isolated area,
(15:02):
to drop this mineralinto a glass of water,
and then see it explode.
Depending on who you are,if you go and blow stuff up,
that's going to have a verydifferent feel than if you
were Feynman in the desert.
MEGAN MERICLE (15:19):
Yeah, or even like, I
actually went on thecitizenscience.gov website
and looked at someof the projects.
And some of them were justlike, what I would call,
people watching.
And I think noteveryone has the--
yeah.
I mean, that looksdifferent depending
on who's doing the watching.
And I'm not sayingit's strictly like one
demographic thatmight cause concern,
(15:42):
but I think anyone could endup being seen as a threat.
CHARLIE BENNETT (15:48):
Yeah.
A white guy loitering inpublic and staring at everybody
would also freak people out.
I guess, unless they'redressed like Einstein.
Yeah?
Like really strange-looking.
Yeah?
MEGAN MERICLE (16:04):
Like, the US Breeding Bird Survey
requires that youdrive a certain amount,
and then stop, and then driveagain, which doesn't look great
if you're stopping.
There was a case ofone Black birder who
was talking abouthaving to do his route
and stopping in front of ahouse with a Confederate flag,
and not feeling safedoing the observations,
and realizing that the whiteresearcher he was traveling with
(16:26):
didn't feel the same way.
CHARLIE BENNETT (16:28):
Yeah.
So part of the collaborationbetween professional scientists
and citizen scientists iskind of a stamp of approval,
a societal approval.
MEGAN MERICLE (16:38):
Right.
Yes.
CHARLIE BENNETT: Giving them the-- (16:39):
undefined
I don't know thelanguage around this.
I haven't thoughtabout it very much,
but just the societalpermission to act oddly,
or to do things thatare not daily life.
FRED RASCOE (16:52):
I have to imagine that even
professional scientists ofcolor have to think twice--
MEGAN MERICLE (16:57):
Definitely.
FRED RASCOE (16:58):
--about fieldwork, or the choices
they make when goingout to do science,
even if they're working--whether they're working
with citizen scientists or not.
MEGAN MERICLE (17:07):
Right.
Yeah, it shapes like--
I think a lot of thescientists have had to weigh,
scientists of color, scientistsfrom religious minorities,
queer scientists,have had to weigh
what kind of fieldresearch they can do
based on their positionality.
And some supervisorsare more understanding
than others, I think, of that.
CHARLIE BENNETT (17:27):
And so the relationships
between citizen scientistsand professional scientists,
do they go both ways?
Are they-- are they initiatedby citizens and initiated
by professionals, or is itlike volunteering, recruiting?
What's the shape of that, thestart of those collaborations?
MEGAN MERICLE (17:47):
I think it really depends.
A lot of citizenscience projects
are started by scientists, andset up with quality control
checks in place.
But there are a lot of examplesof citizen or community science
that are brought up by issuesthat are raised by communities.
So like, we can think aboutFlint and water case--
Flint Water Study asan example of that.
(18:08):
And that was another case where,like you're talking about,
it was clear that there wassomething wrong with the water,
but they needed the scientists,they needed the EPA to come in
and say, there is somethingwrong with the water,
in order for thegovernment to take action.
And so sometimescommunity science
is done to helppressure government
officials to make change.
CHARLIE BENNETT (18:31):
You are listening to Lost in the Stacks,
and we'll hear moreabout citizen science
on the left side of the hour.
[THEME MUSIC]
[MUSIC PLAYING]
KALLIE MOORE (18:51):
Hi, I'm Kallie Moore, the fossil librarian.
You're listening to Lost inthe Stacks on WREK Atlanta.
All right, let's go.
CHARLIE BENNETT (19:15):
Today's show is called "Citizen Science
Communication."
And we're learning a lotabout citizen science
from Dr. Mericle, but I thoughtwe'd take some time at this
break to demonstrate thevalue of citizen science
by talking about afew recent news items,
where ordinary folks--
ordinary, that'swhat's in the script--
made big contributions toour scientific knowledge,
(19:36):
lay people madebig contributions.
Regular folks.
FRED RASCOE (19:39):
That's better-worded.
CHARLIE BENNETT (19:41):
The hoi polloi.
OK.
In June 2022, two amateurfossil hunters in Florida
found an ancient sinkhole,covered by a riverbed,
which contained a troveof half a million year
old fossils from animals likegiant armadillos, giant ground
sloths, and prehistoric horses.
After professionalpaleontologists
learned about this find, it isbeing studied at the Florida
(20:03):
Museum of Natural History.
In 2023, a furniturerestoration professional
and amateurarchaeologist cleverly
deciphered the meaning ofsymbols that appeared in Ice Age
cave paintings, whichled to a collaboration
with two universities and anarticle published in a leading
archaeological journal.
In 2024, the Imperial Collegeof London got 5,000 citizen
(20:26):
scientists to volunteer to testtheir local freshwater rivers,
revealing, and I quote,"alarming chemical levels,"
and thus, provided theevidence for an NGO to advocate
for regular testing.
And earlier this year,citizen astronomers
teamed up withprofessional astronomers
to publish a paper about theirobservations of Jupiter, which
explained a new understandingof the chemical composition
(20:48):
of Jupiter's clouds.
And I think those astronomerswere also knocked out
by how simple the setupwas, that could tell, oh,
that's more than just ammonia.
So if you see a grossbug in the backyard,
why not take a picture of it?
You never know.
You might havefound something new.
We are all potentialcitizen scientists.
OK, while you'refinding that bug,
(21:09):
file this set under QL544.2.W45.
[SALTY DOG, "SEE THE STORM"]
(SINGING) See thestorm over there.
[COCTEAU TWINS, "MELONELLA"]
ALEX MCGEE (21:28):
That was "Melonella,"
by the Cocteau Twins.
And before that, "See theStorm," by Salty Dog--
Woof, woof.
[LAUGHING]
CHARLIE BENNETT (21:38):
Everybody's in a good mood today.
ALEX MCGEE (21:40):
Songs about butterflies, weather,
and other natural wondersthat could be researched
by citizen scientists.
[THEME MUSIC]
CHARLIE BENNETT (21:51):
This is Lost in the Stacks,
and our show today is called"Citizen Science Communication."
Dr. Megan Mericle is our guest.
In this segment, we want to talkmore about that communication
aspect of citizen science.
So when you said earlier,"access to science,"
my mind went directly to beingable to put together an article
(22:12):
that has a chanceof being published.
That's what I wasthinking about.
But now, we're there.
So how is citizenscience shared?
How do people gettheir-- how do people
get their stuffinto the discourse
if they're not professionals?
MEGAN MERICLE (22:25):
Yeah.
So I think part of it is,in those examples of citizen
science like Imentioned earlier, that
are led by professionals,coordinated by professionals,
it takes time to build up trustin the data that is collected
by members of the community.
So in my research, oneof the groups I talked to
was the Illinois ButterflyMonitoring Network,
so this was when I was in mydoctoral program, in Illinois.
(22:48):
And I talked to thecoordinator, and he
talked about doing alot of rhetorical work
and a lot of communicationwith scientists
to talk to themabout their protocol,
and how they checkeddata, to make sure
that other scientistsin entomology
would be interestedin taking this data
and using it to publish.
And so luckily, they'vebeen around long enough
(23:09):
that now peoplehave used the data
and have published on the data.
But it takes timefor scientists to be
willing to use citizenand community science,
and so that's a big partof the conversation.
CHARLIE BENNETT (23:19):
It almost feels like that's
more worthwhile, that sinceit has to really be proved
and has to really be--
gain validity, asopposed to being anointed
by what it was published in.
MEGAN MERICLE: Yeah, I think it's (23:31):
undefined
a really worthwhile process,and like, gives everyone
a lens into what does themethodology of science look
like, and gives-- like spreadseducation for people who
are engaged in it, and alsohas professional scientists who
are required to explainwhy this is valid,
and communicate that to bothcommunity members and members
(23:54):
of academic science.
FRED RASCOE (23:56):
So when professional scientists
want to communicate,the standard
is like a peer-reviewedjournal article
in some academicjournal, or maybe
a peer-reviewed conference paperat a big academic conference.
But when citizenscience is communicated,
there must be othervenues that are commonly
(24:16):
used to distribute thatinformation, or is it--
or maybe I'm makingan assumption there.
Maybe it alwayshas to go through
that professionalscience vetting process
and get to be an article?
MEGAN MERICLE (24:28):
Yeah.
I mean, I think it dependson what kind of communication
of results you're talking about.
I talked to-- another of theprojects that I looked at was
called CoCoRaHS--
Community Collaborative Rain,Hail, and Snow Network--
and that's a project wherea bunch of different people
keep rain gaugesin their backyards,
and check the rain gauges daily,and report on precipitation.
(24:50):
And I talked to a bunchof different people
who helped use that data toadvocate for climate change
impacts in theirlocal communities,
so helped use it boost theirown credibility as community
scientists, as people who werekeeping a close watch on weather
impacts in the local area.
So that's another waythat community science
gets communicatedand used by members
(25:13):
who are involvedin it with a bunch
of different positionalitiesand relationships to science.
FRED RASCOE (25:18):
So you can just post it on a website,
for instance, and everyonehas access to it that way.
That's one way tocommunicate it.
MEGAN MERICLE (25:24):
Yeah.
And with that comesconcerns around--
FRED RASCOE (25:29):
Yeah.
MEGAN MERICLE: --I mean, people-- (25:30):
undefined
there are quality checks.
Like I mentioned with CoCoRaHS,and people are checking the data
and following up.
But people also haveaccess to their own data
and can do withit what they want.
And so there areclimate skeptics
who have been involved incommunity science projects, too.
So that's another concern.
CHARLIE BENNETT (25:50):
When you say access to their own data,
meaning they have data thatthey can then do something with?
They can try and produce someconclusion from and publish?
MEGAN MERICLE (26:01):
Right, yeah.
CHARLIE BENNETT (26:03):
Oh, this is doing your own research.
FRED RASCOE (26:06):
Yeah, that's a loaded term.
CHARLIE BENNETT (26:08):
It really is.
I mean, it's crazy that"do your own research"
is now politically charged andhas a connotation that makes
some people frothy inone way or another.
But that's what this is.
FRED RASCOE (26:22):
It's a tension.
Like, you want scienceto be accessible to all
and for everyone tobe able to contribute.
And then on theother side, there's
the idea that we are ina time of disinformation
coming from all levelsand particularly,
powerful political levels.
MARLEE GIVENS (26:45):
So I'm also kind of wondering
if a typical academicscientist uses information
from citizen scientistsand maybe publishes it
in the academic sphere, do theyalso feel like they should also
(27:08):
share it in the public sphere,in popular communications,
as well?
Do you find that thereare more communications
in popular venues coming frompeople who are participating
in citizen science?
MEGAN MERICLE (27:23):
Yeah.
I think there's a huge pushto publish community science
or citizen science datain open access journals.
And also, like you mentioned, todo education and public outreach
around community sciencebecause the community was
a part of working onand gathering this data
and sometimesanalyzing the data,
so they should be a partof the dissemination
(27:44):
and benefit from that, too.
MARLEE GIVENS (27:45):
Yeah, because otherwise,
it might be locked upfrom their access, right?
MEGAN MERICLE (27:50):
Right.
CHARLIE BENNETT (27:51):
Yeah, I just flashed on DIY open access.
Something-- like insteadof just saying, oh, yeah,
we put it out there inthe world, how would you,
as a citizen, as anon-academic citizen,
how would you recreatethe open access system
to circumvent not onlymonetary blocks to publication,
(28:12):
but status blocksto publication?
FRED RASCOE (28:15):
When you talk--
Dr. Mericle, when you talk aboutcommunicating citizen science,
when you're actually talkingto citizen scientists, what
do you say to them?
MEGAN MERICLE (28:27):
I ask them--
I think one thing that cameup throughout my research
was that a lot of thecommunity or citizen
scientists I talked totold me that they didn't
write surrounding their work.
They're like, oh, I justgo out in the backyard,
and I check the rain gauge, orI'm just looking at butterflies.
But then when youstart probing further
and you start askingthem, you hear of like,
(28:48):
oh, well, but I did do apresentation for the Girl Scouts
and bringing GirlScouts into it,
and I do like talkto my neighbors.
And so actually, one of thethings I talk to them about
was recognizing all the waysthat they do communicate
science, and thatthey are a part
of scientific communication,that they're not just
citizen scientists.
CHARLIE BENNETT (29:08):
They get to avoid peer reviewer number
two, though.
They don't have to deal withthat-- that set of comments.
MEGAN MERICLE (29:14):
Well, I mean, in CoCoRaHS, they do get,
sometimes, quality controlchecks kicked back.
And I have heard somepeople are not happy
when they get thosequality control checks.
But for the most part, peopleare generally, like, oh, yeah,
I made a mistake.
I entered that wrong.
I put in the zero wrong,or something like that.
CHARLIE BENNETT (29:31):
So we're running up against our segment
time limit, butI do want to ask,
have you done anycitizen science yourself?
MEGAN MERICLE (29:37):
I have.
So I have iNaturalistinstalled in my phone,
and I collect pictureson iNaturalist.
And I also got to participatein a butterfly monitoring
workshop in my research.
So I try to do citizen sciencewhen I can, when I have time,
when I'm not studyingcitizen science.
FRED RASCOE (29:55):
So you've taken a picture
of a bug in your backyard?
MEGAN MERICLE (29:58):
I have definitely taken a picture of a bug--
CHARLIE BENNETT (29:59):
Yes.
MEGAN MERICLE: --in my apartment, (30:00):
undefined
and wondered what it was.
FRED RASCOE (30:03):
This is Lost in the Stacks,
and our guest today is Dr. MeganMericle, Postdoctoral Fellow
in Literature, Media, andCommunication, at Georgia Tech,
and an expert on citizenscience communication.
Megan, thank you so muchfor being on the show.
MEGAN MERICLE: Thanks for having me. (30:17):
undefined
CHARLIE BENNETT (30:19):
File this set under QH31.D2.B746.
That one was for you, Alex.
[SUNSHINE FACES, "MORE THANSCIENCE"] Loved ones are
prettier than science.
Maybe.
[MARMALADE, "I SEE THE RAIN"]
MARLEE GIVENS (30:42):
"I See the Rain," by Marmalade.
And before that, "Plain as YourEyes Can See," by Jim Sullivan.
And we started our setwith "More Than Science,"
by the Sunshine Faces.
Songs about scientificobservation.
[THEME MUSIC]
CHARLIE BENNETT: Today's show was called, (31:05):
undefined
"Citizen Science Communication,"So I think we should ask,
has anyone here in the studiodone anything like citizen
science work?
And if so, what was it?
And if you haven't, whatkind of citizen science
work would youreally like to do?
For me, I would like to dosome kind of forestry thing.
Especially if I could just goup in one of those observation
posts for like six monthsand stay there and just
(31:27):
look at trees, thatwould be really nice.
How about you, Fred?
FRED RASCOE (31:30):
I don't think I have done citizen science,
but if I could, itwould have anything
to do with pickingup, finding fossils.
I think that would be perfect.
CHARLIE BENNETT (31:38):
I mean, I think you've done a lot of that.
That probably counts.
FRED RASCOE (31:40):
I need to write it, though, I
guess, to make it science.
CHARLIE BENNETT (31:42):
There you go.
Marlee?
MARLEE GIVENS (31:43):
Yeah, that sounds like you, Fred.
Well, I mean, Ibrought up the people
watching earlier because Ithink that would be up my alley.
But then I thought, oh, no, whatif people see me as a threat?
So maybe I could just like,take notes on all the kitty
cats in my neighborhood?
What about you, Danielle?
DANIELLE (32:01):
Yeah.
So I used to work at thezoo, and a lot of my friends
would send me pictures of snakesand ask me to identify them.
I got them rightabout 50% of the time.
But i still like to do that,but mostly now, with dog breeds.
ALEX MCGEE (32:16):
So Marlee literally took mine,
I was going to talk aboutkitty cats, but that's OK.
So I'm just going todefer to aliens, so
extraterrestrial life.
CODY (32:27):
When I got accepted to Georgia Tech,
me and my highschool friend thought
that we had to do alittle bit of research
in order to go to aresearch university.
So we made some survey aboutdifferent belief systems
and just loitered outsideWalmart's and parking lots
trying to get peopleto fill our survey out.
We learned the differencebetween public and private
spaces, and then we postedit as a Myspace bulletin
(32:48):
to all of our friends to see.
CHARLIE BENNETT (32:51):
Oh, my God.
OK, Fred, roll the credits.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
ALEX MCGEE (33:00):
Lost in the Stacks is
a collaboration between WREKAtlanta and the Georgia Tech
Library.
Written and produced byAlex McGee, Charlie Bennett,
Fred Rascoe, and Marlee Givens.
CHARLIE BENNETT (33:10):
Legal counsel and a book
with 15 years ofcitizen-described weather
data from the BurrusIntellectual Property Law Group
in Atlanta, Georgia.
Philip does everything.
MARLEE GIVENS (33:19):
Mm-hmm.
Special thanks toMegan for being
on the show, to citizenscientists everywhere,
and thanks, as always,to each and every one
of you for listening.
ALEX MCGEE (33:28):
Our web page is library.gatech.e
du/lostinthestacks, where you'llfind our most recent episode,
a link to our podcastfeed, and a web form
if you want to getin touch with us.
MARLEE GIVENS: Next week, we won't (33:38):
undefined
be in the studio,the wonky studio,
but you will hear a specialepisode, guest produced
by retroTech's Dillon Henry.
FRED RASCOE (33:46):
Nice.
So it's time forour last song today.
If you're a citizen withno scientific training,
but have a strong senseof curiosity combined
with an appreciationof the natural world,
you might be justthe sort of person
to dabble in some citizenscience of your own.
You don't need to goto an exotic location.
There is a lot ofscience you can do right
in your own backyard.
(34:09):
You can just take pictures ofgross bugs in your backyard,
too.
That's fun.
This is, to close out,"Back in Your Own Backyard,"
by Billie Holiday.
Have a great weekend, everybody.
Hope you observe somethingwonderful and cool
in the world this week.
[BILLIE HOLIDAY, "BACK IN YOUROWN BACKYARD"]
(34:31):
[CLIP - TIFFANY HADDISH]: I think I'm a scientist, (00:00):
undefined
personally.
I think I'm alightweight scientist.
People always say to me,"When you first got money,
what did you buy?
What's the first big purchase?
Your first big purchase?"
I went straight to Amazon,and I bought me a microscope,
because I was like, I need tosee what the [BLEEP] going on
out here.
[THEME MUSIC]
CHARLIE BENNETT (00:41):
You are listening to WREK Atlanta,
we hope.
And this is Lost in theStacks-- the Research Library
Rock'n'Roll Radio Show.
I'm Charlie Bennett in theunreliable studio once again.
And the gang's all here,plus some not some,
and an extra person, anda guest to be named later.
I'm just so excitedwe're on air,
I'm going to skip overthe introductions.
Each week on Lost in theStacks, we pick a theme,
(01:03):
and then use it to create amix of music and library talk.
Whichever you tune infor, we hope you dig it.
FRED RASCOE (01:09):
And our show today is called Citizen Science
Communication.
MARLEE GIVENS (01:14):
Now, while we love our research faculty
here in academia, there's a lotof beneficial scientific work
that is contributed by everydayfolks just doing science out
of personal interest.
ALEX MCGEE (01:25):
This may naturally lead one to ask questions.
Like, what makes acitizen scientist?
What does a citizenscientist do?
FRED RASCOE (01:32):
How does their work intersect
with professional scientists?
MARLEE GIVENS (01:36):
How does citizen science
get communicated to the world?
CHARLIE BENNETT (01:39):
And if I take a picture of a really
gross bug in my backyardand post it on social media,
am I doing citizen science?
FRED RASCOE (01:46):
Those are all questions
that our guest todayhas thought a lot about.
CHARLIE BENNETT: Even that bug one. (01:50):
undefined
FRED RASCOE (01:52):
Well, maybe.
We'll find out.
Our songs today areabout the citizens who
do scientific workabout taking note
of the life and environmentalconditions around us,
and about being a closeobserver of nature.
And we kick off with,appropriately enough,
"Citizen Science,"by J. Marinelli,
right here on Lostin the Stacks.
CHARLIE BENNETT (02:11):
Title track.
That's awesome, Fred.
[J. MARINELLI, "CITIZENSCIENCE"] Like a child of Eden.
MARLEE GIVENS (02:20):
You just heard "Citizen Science," by J.
Marinelli.
This is Lost in the Stacks,and our show today is called,
"Citizen Science Communication."
FRED RASCOE (02:28):
And our guest is Dr. Megan Mericle, a Marion L.
Brittain Postdoctoral Fellow inthe School of Literature, Media,
and Communicationhere at Georgia Tech.
Megan, welcome to the show.
MEGAN MERICLE (02:39):
Thank you.
Yeah.
FRED RASCOE (02:40):
So we met when I came
and did a little instructionin one of your classes.
And we got to talking,and I mentioned I was--
talked about scholarlycommunication sometimes,
and sometimes talkedabout it on the show.
And you said thatone of your interests
was citizen sciencecommunication, which
made me think, OK,well, we've got
to talk about that on the show.
So before we dive in,let's define some terms.
(03:01):
What is citizen science?
MEGAN MERICLE (03:03):
Yeah.
So citizen science actually hasa pretty contested definition
because a lot ofdifferent things
can be consideredcitizen science.
And there's a lotof different terms
other than citizenscience that are used
to describe these practices.
So like from community scienceto participatory science,
there's a wholeconstellation of terms.
And so part of my work islooking at those terms,
(03:24):
and what they mean.
But I would define citizenscience as any effort
where people with differentrelationships to science
are collaborating togetheron a scientific project.
So that might includeprofessional scientists, members
of the community, activists,people taking bug pictures
on their phones.
CHARLIE BENNETT: Although, wait, you (03:42):
undefined
said workingcollaboratively, right?
MEGAN MERICLE (03:45):
Yes.
CHARLIE BENNETT (03:45):
So there does seem to be--
there has to be a kind ofsynergistic relationship.
It's not just, I'mdoing citizen scientist
if I'm taking pictures of bugs.
MEGAN MERICLE (03:54):
Right.
Well, I kind of like AdamSavage, the MythBuster,
his definition ofscience of like,
the difference between messingaround and doing science
is writing it down.
So being able to writeit down and share it,
I think, is a key partof citizen science,
and what makes thatdifferent from taking
a big picture in your backyardthat only you look at.
CHARLIE BENNETT (04:13):
And do you feel like there's
any actual like substance toall of the different-- all
the different word choices,all the different participatory
community?
Do those matter, oris it all the thing
that we're trying to talk about?
MEGAN MERICLE (04:28):
I think it's all the thing
we're trying to talk about.
But I think the way that we goabout talking about it really
matters, and it mattersbecause it changes
how we view people who arenot professional scientists,
and how we viewtheir contributions.
So, like a keyshift in this area
has been the move from citizenscience to community science,
(04:49):
because citizen science isnot only enacted by citizens.
It's enacted by a bunchof different members
of the community,who may or may not
have legal citizenship status.
So I think it's importantto look at the word citizen
and what work it'sdoing, especially
from my backgroundin writing studies.
CHARLIE BENNETT: And Alex, you talked (05:04):
undefined
about a switch fromcitizen archiving
to community archiving.
That seemed to probably happen--
ALEX MCGEE (05:11):
More of the collective, I think, the--
that it's a group ofpeople or a community
that we're serving, asopposed to a single person.
And I like what you justsaid about citizenship, that,
that not beingcentral to us engaging
with these folks, right?
MEGAN MERICLE (05:30):
Yeah.
And then questions of like, whodo we consider the community?
And if I'm acting asa community member
and I'm not acting inmy role as a teacher
or as a researcher, am I amember of the community, or am I
excluded from that group becauseI have a doctorate degree,
you know?
I think it's a complexsystem, and we sometimes
draw hard lines betweenwho is the community
(05:52):
and who is academia.
And so part of mywork is looking
at where those lines getdrawn and the rhetorical work
around them.
Yeah.
FRED RASCOE (06:00):
And you do--
you're a professor here,you have a doctorate,
but it's not in ascientific field.
So how did you get interestedin citizen science?
MEGAN MERICLE (06:11):
Yeah.
So actually, it beganfor me in the classroom.
In talking to my students,I had this one encounter
when I was teaching aclass for students in STEM,
and it was a writing-centered--first-year writing class.
And I asked them, like--
I referred to them inconversation as scientists,
and they kind of like,balked at the term.
And they were like,"We're not scientists."
And I'm like, "Well,what are you then?
(06:32):
You're STEM students."
CHARLIE BENNETT (06:34):
Did they straight up tell you, "Wait,
stop.
We're not scientists."--
MEGAN MERICLE (06:36):
Right, yeah.
CHARLIE BENNETT (06:37):
--in class at that moment?
MEGAN MERICLE (06:38):
Yeah.
CHARLIE BENNETT (06:39):
Wow.
MEGAN MERICLE (06:39):
I just saw the look on their faces,
and I paused, and we stopped,and we talked about it.
And finally, onestudent raised her hand,
and she was like,"We're not scientists.
We're scientists-in-training."
And everybody kind ofnodded and agreed on that.
So I think it's interestinghow we withhold or take
on these identities asscientists, as experts.
And so that's really keyin my work with students
(07:00):
in the classroom,and so I wanted
to explore what thatmeans in the community
beyond the classroom.
And so that's oneof the ways that I
got involved inresearching communication
practices and citizen science.
CHARLIE BENNETT (07:11):
Do you--
do you blend that intothe writing courses?
Do you try to--
do you try to makethem recognize
that they're not in training,but they're actually actively
participating earlyon when you give them
the topics or theassignments in the class?
MEGAN MERICLE (07:27):
Yeah, definitely.
And I think that's a challenge.
I mean, I understandthat challenge, too.
Like still feeling weirdabout being called an expert,
and like, what doesthat term mean?
But yeah, I definitely talkto my students about that,
and ask them to definetheir areas of expertise,
and I think, really break downthe like, individualistic way
we sometimes look atexpertise, and help
(07:48):
them realize that they'rebuilding expertise together
as like aninterdisciplinary community,
and that their positionalitiesas students matter.
CHARLIE BENNETT (07:56):
Yeah, because if we go by that Adam Savage
definition, then collegestudents have become scientists.
They have written it down.
And it's only if youthink to yourself, oh,
because I had someonetelling me what to do,
or who was going to checkon my work, that somehow
made me not a scientist,only a scientist-in-training.
But then, that's the role ofthis citizen scientist at this
(08:18):
point, in terms of a-- bigquote marks-- "authority figure"
in the scientific community youare working collaboratively with
and learning from.
Right?
MEGAN MERICLE (08:28):
Right.
And we need to all buildthat accountability together,
I think.
Like the community needs tocheck scientists and make sure
that what scientists are doingis meaningful for the community.
But then thescientists also need
to check citizen scientistsor community scientists
and make sure thatthey're adhering
to protocol and thesestandards around science.
Those are important, too, andnot see it as unidirectional.
CHARLIE BENNETT (08:52):
I just flashed on Francis Bacon
stuffing a chicken fullof snow, just to see,
and like that was a veryeminent scientist at the time.
No one was checking up on him.
Do you all know that story?
This is supposedly how the--
Yeah, everyone justwent, [EXHALE].
What are you doing, buddy?
So the story is, and it's justa story, that Francis Bacon--
(09:12):
not the painter,but the scientist,
great in staturationFrancis Bacon--
he died becausehe caught a cold,
because he hadthis idea of like,
maybe we can use coldto preserve meat.
And so he jumpedout of the coach
and stuffed a chicken with snow.
Where is the chicken?
When did the chicken die?
I don't know, butyou're nodding.
(09:33):
You know this story, thispossibly apocryphal story.
MEGAN MERICLE (09:36):
It sounds familiar.
Yes.
CHARLIE BENNETT (09:40):
But let me lead into, didn't all scientists
used to be citizen scientists?
Nobody had-- nobody hadthe doctorate, right?
Nobody had the-- no one had theeducation from Georgia Tech that
stamped them as an expert.
Just someone who did anexperiment was a scientist.
MEGAN MERICLE (09:57):
Yeah.
So that's actually oneof the arguments that's
used for citizen scientists.
Is that like, Charles Darwinwas a citizen scientist and all
of these early scientists.
But I think it's importantto be careful about the way
that the profession of sciencedeveloped, in like, they
were scientists ina very different way
than like people engaging incitizen science today are,
(10:20):
and keeping those lines clear.
Because like CharlesDarwin, for instance, like
had a different levelof access to science.
He had funding, he had anexpedition, and so, yeah,
being careful.
But I think there is some truthto, the origins of science
are in philosophy andlike gentlemen scholars
and natural philosophers.
And there was certainly a lot ofprivilege there in their ability
(10:42):
to access science, which Ithink is one of the things
that citizen science todayis trying to address.
Is this like ability to beable to do science, which is
expensive and time-consuming.
Yeah.
CHARLIE BENNETT (10:53):
I was thinking, accessing science can really
just be accessing money.
MEGAN MERICLE (10:56):
Yes.
CHARLIE BENNETT (10:57):
And this moment in time, that's
very important, also.
MEGAN MERICLE (11:00):
Right.
MARLEE GIVENS (11:01):
This is Lost in the Stacks,
and we will be back withmore about citizen science,
with Dr. Megan Mericle,after a music set.
CHARLIE BENNETT (11:08):
File this set under Q126.9.C43.
[SWANS, "LOVE OF LIFE"]
[THE CONSUMERS, "CONCERNEDCITIZEN"]
(11:30):
"Concerned Citizen," by The Consumers,
and before that, "Loveof Life," by the Swans.
Songs about everyday people whoappreciate the living world,
and people who providevital knowledge.
[THEME MUSIC]
ALEX MCGEE (11:45):
This is Lost in the Stacks,
and today's show is called"Citizen Science Communication."
Our guest is Dr. Megan Mericle,Postdoc Fellow at Georgia Tech,
who researches citizen science.
In our first segment, wetalked about the definition
of a citizen scientist.
And I feel like we werekind of just starting
to tease out this questionof access and privilege
(12:06):
in science, so I wantto keep going with that,
and ask, what does citizenscience mean in 2025?
MEGAN MERICLE (12:13):
Yeah.
So I think these questionsof privilege and access
are really important in2025, especially as we're
thinking more about whohistorically has not had access
to science, and thinking aboutmultiple marginalized people who
are raising issues like--
that are considering theirown local communities.
And I'm thinkingof several examples
(12:34):
that have really illustratedfor me that privilege of like,
who has access toscientific tools,
and who is safe doingscience in the field.
So there is an examplefrom Bobbi Wilson, who
was a young girl in NewJersey, who was exterminating
lanternflies, which arean invasive species that
has effects on trees.
And she was goingaround the trees,
(12:55):
and she had learnedabout this at school
and watched a video,nine years old,
spraying lanternflieson the trees
and killing themto save the trees.
And she did this like,every day after school.
And her neighborcalled the police,
because he saw someonegoing around spraying trees.
And luckily, the policearrived, mother explained
(13:18):
what was happening,and nothing happened,
but it could have reallybeen a tragic story.
And Bobbi Wilson's motherwent to the City Council
and talked about this issue.
The neighbor was like a memberof the local Republican Party,
and she asked, like, thisis someone in your party
like, who's doing this.
So I think, it justreally illustrates
that not everyoneis able to safely do
(13:40):
citizen science in the field.
CHARLIE BENNETT (13:42):
So access to science is not just,
do you have the tools,are you able to publish,
are you able to pullthe information?
But also, are youallowed to do the things
that we think of as science?
MEGAN MERICLE (13:55):
Right.
Yeah.
I think, we don't alwaysrealize that a lot
of these actionsaround citizen science,
around doing sciencein the field,
involve going to public places,maybe going on to private land,
and having to talk to people.
Like cases from this young girl,Bobbi Wilson, in New Jersey,
and like fromChris Cooper, which
(14:16):
was another very public exampleof a birder in The Ramble,
in Central Park, show us that.
FRED RASCOE (14:22):
And you didn't explicitly say,
but in these cases, race is--
MEGAN MERICLE (14:25):
Right.
FRED RASCOE (14:26):
--the issue that causes
the danger and theinability to access
what other privilegedfolks might be able to do.
MEGAN MERICLE (14:35):
Right, yeah.
Bobbi Wilson was ayoung Black girl,
and Chris Cooper beingan older Black birder--
CHARLIE BENNETT (14:40):
Yeah.
MEGAN MERICLE (14:41):
--in both cases.
Yeah.
CHARLIE BENNETT (14:42):
I'm flashing on a thing I saw.
Someone did a videoshowing what one column
of the periodictable, what they did
when you dropped them in water.
Like it starts withjust a little frothing,
but by the time youget to the bottom,
it explodes enoughto knock trees down.
They had to go out into adesolated area, isolated area,
(15:02):
to drop this mineralinto a glass of water,
and then see it explode.
Depending on who you are,if you go and blow stuff up,
that's going to have a verydifferent feel than if you
were Feynman in the desert.
MEGAN MERICLE (15:19):
Yeah, or even like, I
actually went on thecitizenscience.gov website
and looked at someof the projects.
And some of them were justlike, what I would call,
people watching.
And I think noteveryone has the--
yeah.
I mean, that looksdifferent depending
on who's doing the watching.
And I'm not sayingit's strictly like one
demographic thatmight cause concern,
(15:42):
but I think anyone could endup being seen as a threat.
CHARLIE BENNETT (15:48):
Yeah.
A white guy loitering inpublic and staring at everybody
would also freak people out.
I guess, unless they'redressed like Einstein.
Yeah?
Like really strange-looking.
Yeah?
MEGAN MERICLE (16:04):
Like, the US Breeding Bird Survey
requires that youdrive a certain amount,
and then stop, and then driveagain, which doesn't look great
if you're stopping.
There was a case ofone Black birder who
was talking abouthaving to do his route
and stopping in front of ahouse with a Confederate flag,
and not feeling safedoing the observations,
and realizing that the whiteresearcher he was traveling with
(16:26):
didn't feel the same way.
CHARLIE BENNETT (16:28):
Yeah.
So part of the collaborationbetween professional scientists
and citizen scientists iskind of a stamp of approval,
a societal approval.
MEGAN MERICLE (16:38):
Right.
Yes.
CHARLIE BENNETT: Giving them the-- (16:39):
undefined
I don't know thelanguage around this.
I haven't thoughtabout it very much,
but just the societalpermission to act oddly,
or to do things thatare not daily life.
FRED RASCOE (16:52):
I have to imagine that even
professional scientists ofcolor have to think twice--
MEGAN MERICLE (16:57):
Definitely.
FRED RASCOE (16:58):
--about fieldwork, or the choices
they make when goingout to do science,
even if they're working--whether they're working
with citizen scientists or not.
MEGAN MERICLE (17:07):
Right.
Yeah, it shapes like--
I think a lot of thescientists have had to weigh,
scientists of color, scientistsfrom religious minorities,
queer scientists,have had to weigh
what kind of fieldresearch they can do
based on their positionality.
And some supervisorsare more understanding
than others, I think, of that.
CHARLIE BENNETT (17:27):
And so the relationships
between citizen scientistsand professional scientists,
do they go both ways?
Are they-- are they initiatedby citizens and initiated
by professionals, or is itlike volunteering, recruiting?
What's the shape of that, thestart of those collaborations?
MEGAN MERICLE (17:47):
I think it really depends.
A lot of citizenscience projects
are started by scientists, andset up with quality control
checks in place.
But there are a lot of examplesof citizen or community science
that are brought up by issuesthat are raised by communities.
So like, we can think aboutFlint and water case--
Flint Water Study asan example of that.
(18:08):
And that was another case where,like you're talking about,
it was clear that there wassomething wrong with the water,
but they needed the scientists,they needed the EPA to come in
and say, there is somethingwrong with the water,
in order for thegovernment to take action.
And so sometimescommunity science
is done to helppressure government
officials to make change.
CHARLIE BENNETT (18:31):
You are listening to Lost in the Stacks,
and we'll hear moreabout citizen science
on the left side of the hour.
[THEME MUSIC]
[MUSIC PLAYING]
KALLIE MOORE (18:51):
Hi, I'm Kallie Moore, the fossil librarian.
You're listening to Lost inthe Stacks on WREK Atlanta.
All right, let's go.
CHARLIE BENNETT (19:15):
Today's show is called "Citizen Science
Communication."
And we're learning a lotabout citizen science
from Dr. Mericle, but I thoughtwe'd take some time at this
break to demonstrate thevalue of citizen science
by talking about afew recent news items,
where ordinary folks--
ordinary, that'swhat's in the script--
made big contributions toour scientific knowledge,
(19:36):
lay people madebig contributions.
Regular folks.
FRED RASCOE (19:39):
That's better-worded.
CHARLIE BENNETT (19:41):
The hoi polloi.
OK.
In June 2022, two amateurfossil hunters in Florida
found an ancient sinkhole,covered by a riverbed,
which contained a troveof half a million year
old fossils from animals likegiant armadillos, giant ground
sloths, and prehistoric horses.
After professionalpaleontologists
learned about this find, it isbeing studied at the Florida
(20:03):
Museum of Natural History.
In 2023, a furniturerestoration professional
and amateurarchaeologist cleverly
deciphered the meaning ofsymbols that appeared in Ice Age
cave paintings, whichled to a collaboration
with two universities and anarticle published in a leading
archaeological journal.
In 2024, the Imperial Collegeof London got 5,000 citizen
(20:26):
scientists to volunteer to testtheir local freshwater rivers,
revealing, and I quote,"alarming chemical levels,"
and thus, provided theevidence for an NGO to advocate
for regular testing.
And earlier this year,citizen astronomers
teamed up withprofessional astronomers
to publish a paper about theirobservations of Jupiter, which
explained a new understandingof the chemical composition
(20:48):
of Jupiter's clouds.
And I think those astronomerswere also knocked out
by how simple the setupwas, that could tell, oh,
that's more than just ammonia.
So if you see a grossbug in the backyard,
why not take a picture of it?
You never know.
You might havefound something new.
We are all potentialcitizen scientists.
OK, while you'refinding that bug,
(21:09):
file this set under QL544.2.W45.
[SALTY DOG, "SEE THE STORM"]
(SINGING) See thestorm over there.
[COCTEAU TWINS, "MELONELLA"]
ALEX MCGEE (21:28):
That was "Melonella,"
by the Cocteau Twins.
And before that, "See theStorm," by Salty Dog--
Woof, woof.
[LAUGHING]
CHARLIE BENNETT (21:38):
Everybody's in a good mood today.
ALEX MCGEE (21:40):
Songs about butterflies, weather,
and other natural wondersthat could be researched
by citizen scientists.
[THEME MUSIC]
CHARLIE BENNETT (21:51):
This is Lost in the Stacks,
and our show today is called"Citizen Science Communication."
Dr. Megan Mericle is our guest.
In this segment, we want to talkmore about that communication
aspect of citizen science.
So when you said earlier,"access to science,"
my mind went directly to beingable to put together an article
(22:12):
that has a chanceof being published.
That's what I wasthinking about.
But now, we're there.
So how is citizenscience shared?
How do people gettheir-- how do people
get their stuffinto the discourse
if they're not professionals?
MEGAN MERICLE (22:25):
Yeah.
So I think part of it is,in those examples of citizen
science like Imentioned earlier, that
are led by professionals,coordinated by professionals,
it takes time to build up trustin the data that is collected
by members of the community.
So in my research, oneof the groups I talked to
was the Illinois ButterflyMonitoring Network,
so this was when I was in mydoctoral program, in Illinois.
(22:48):
And I talked to thecoordinator, and he
talked about doing alot of rhetorical work
and a lot of communicationwith scientists
to talk to themabout their protocol,
and how they checkeddata, to make sure
that other scientistsin entomology
would be interestedin taking this data
and using it to publish.
And so luckily, they'vebeen around long enough
(23:09):
that now peoplehave used the data
and have published on the data.
But it takes timefor scientists to be
willing to use citizenand community science,
and so that's a big partof the conversation.
CHARLIE BENNETT (23:19):
It almost feels like that's
more worthwhile, that sinceit has to really be proved
and has to really be--
gain validity, asopposed to being anointed
by what it was published in.
MEGAN MERICLE: Yeah, I think it's (23:31):
undefined
a really worthwhile process,and like, gives everyone
a lens into what does themethodology of science look
like, and gives-- like spreadseducation for people who
are engaged in it, and alsohas professional scientists who
are required to explainwhy this is valid,
and communicate that to bothcommunity members and members
(23:54):
of academic science.
FRED RASCOE (23:56):
So when professional scientists
want to communicate,the standard
is like a peer-reviewedjournal article
in some academicjournal, or maybe
a peer-reviewed conference paperat a big academic conference.
But when citizenscience is communicated,
there must be othervenues that are commonly
(24:16):
used to distribute thatinformation, or is it--
or maybe I'm makingan assumption there.
Maybe it alwayshas to go through
that professionalscience vetting process
and get to be an article?
MEGAN MERICLE (24:28):
Yeah.
I mean, I think it dependson what kind of communication
of results you're talking about.
I talked to-- another of theprojects that I looked at was
called CoCoRaHS--
Community Collaborative Rain,Hail, and Snow Network--
and that's a project wherea bunch of different people
keep rain gaugesin their backyards,
and check the rain gauges daily,and report on precipitation.
(24:50):
And I talked to a bunchof different people
who helped use that data toadvocate for climate change
impacts in theirlocal communities,
so helped use it boost theirown credibility as community
scientists, as people who werekeeping a close watch on weather
impacts in the local area.
So that's another waythat community science
gets communicatedand used by members
(25:13):
who are involvedin it with a bunch
of different positionalitiesand relationships to science.
FRED RASCOE (25:18):
So you can just post it on a website,
for instance, and everyonehas access to it that way.
That's one way tocommunicate it.
MEGAN MERICLE (25:24):
Yeah.
And with that comesconcerns around--
FRED RASCOE (25:29):
Yeah.
MEGAN MERICLE: --I mean, people-- (25:30):
undefined
there are quality checks.
Like I mentioned with CoCoRaHS,and people are checking the data
and following up.
But people also haveaccess to their own data
and can do withit what they want.
And so there areclimate skeptics
who have been involved incommunity science projects, too.
So that's another concern.
CHARLIE BENNETT (25:50):
When you say access to their own data,
meaning they have data thatthey can then do something with?
They can try and produce someconclusion from and publish?
MEGAN MERICLE (26:01):
Right, yeah.
CHARLIE BENNETT (26:03):
Oh, this is doing your own research.
FRED RASCOE (26:06):
Yeah, that's a loaded term.
CHARLIE BENNETT (26:08):
It really is.
I mean, it's crazy that"do your own research"
is now politically charged andhas a connotation that makes
some people frothy inone way or another.
But that's what this is.
FRED RASCOE (26:22):
It's a tension.
Like, you want scienceto be accessible to all
and for everyone tobe able to contribute.
And then on theother side, there's
the idea that we are ina time of disinformation
coming from all levelsand particularly,
powerful political levels.
MARLEE GIVENS (26:45):
So I'm also kind of wondering
if a typical academicscientist uses information
from citizen scientistsand maybe publishes it
in the academic sphere, do theyalso feel like they should also
(27:08):
share it in the public sphere,in popular communications,
as well?
Do you find that thereare more communications
in popular venues coming frompeople who are participating
in citizen science?
MEGAN MERICLE (27:23):
Yeah.
I think there's a huge pushto publish community science
or citizen science datain open access journals.
And also, like you mentioned, todo education and public outreach
around community sciencebecause the community was
a part of working onand gathering this data
and sometimesanalyzing the data,
so they should be a partof the dissemination
(27:44):
and benefit from that, too.
MARLEE GIVENS (27:45):
Yeah, because otherwise,
it might be locked upfrom their access, right?
MEGAN MERICLE (27:50):
Right.
CHARLIE BENNETT (27:51):
Yeah, I just flashed on DIY open access.
Something-- like insteadof just saying, oh, yeah,
we put it out there inthe world, how would you,
as a citizen, as anon-academic citizen,
how would you recreatethe open access system
to circumvent not onlymonetary blocks to publication,
(28:12):
but status blocksto publication?
FRED RASCOE (28:15):
When you talk--
Dr. Mericle, when you talk aboutcommunicating citizen science,
when you're actually talkingto citizen scientists, what
do you say to them?
MEGAN MERICLE (28:27):
I ask them--
I think one thing that cameup throughout my research
was that a lot of thecommunity or citizen
scientists I talked totold me that they didn't
write surrounding their work.
They're like, oh, I justgo out in the backyard,
and I check the rain gauge, orI'm just looking at butterflies.
But then when youstart probing further
and you start askingthem, you hear of like,
(28:48):
oh, well, but I did do apresentation for the Girl Scouts
and bringing GirlScouts into it,
and I do like talkto my neighbors.
And so actually, one of thethings I talk to them about
was recognizing all the waysthat they do communicate
science, and thatthey are a part
of scientific communication,that they're not just
citizen scientists.
CHARLIE BENNETT (29:08):
They get to avoid peer reviewer number
two, though.
They don't have to deal withthat-- that set of comments.
MEGAN MERICLE (29:14):
Well, I mean, in CoCoRaHS, they do get,
sometimes, quality controlchecks kicked back.
And I have heard somepeople are not happy
when they get thosequality control checks.
But for the most part, peopleare generally, like, oh, yeah,
I made a mistake.
I entered that wrong.
I put in the zero wrong,or something like that.
CHARLIE BENNETT (29:31):
So we're running up against our segment
time limit, butI do want to ask,
have you done anycitizen science yourself?
MEGAN MERICLE (29:37):
I have.
So I have iNaturalistinstalled in my phone,
and I collect pictureson iNaturalist.
And I also got to participatein a butterfly monitoring
workshop in my research.
So I try to do citizen sciencewhen I can, when I have time,
when I'm not studyingcitizen science.
FRED RASCOE (29:55):
So you've taken a picture
of a bug in your backyard?
MEGAN MERICLE (29:58):
I have definitely taken a picture of a bug--
CHARLIE BENNETT (29:59):
Yes.
MEGAN MERICLE: --in my apartment, (30:00):
undefined
and wondered what it was.
FRED RASCOE (30:03):
This is Lost in the Stacks,
and our guest today is Dr. MeganMericle, Postdoctoral Fellow
in Literature, Media, andCommunication, at Georgia Tech,
and an expert on citizenscience communication.
Megan, thank you so muchfor being on the show.
MEGAN MERICLE: Thanks for having me. (30:17):
undefined
CHARLIE BENNETT (30:19):
File this set under QH31.D2.B746.
That one was for you, Alex.
[SUNSHINE FACES, "MORE THANSCIENCE"] Loved ones are
prettier than science.
Maybe.
[MARMALADE, "I SEE THE RAIN"]
MARLEE GIVENS (30:42):
"I See the Rain," by Marmalade.
And before that, "Plain as YourEyes Can See," by Jim Sullivan.
And we started our setwith "More Than Science,"
by the Sunshine Faces.
Songs about scientificobservation.
[THEME MUSIC]
CHARLIE BENNETT: Today's show was called, (31:05):
undefined
"Citizen Science Communication,"So I think we should ask,
has anyone here in the studiodone anything like citizen
science work?
And if so, what was it?
And if you haven't, whatkind of citizen science
work would youreally like to do?
For me, I would like to dosome kind of forestry thing.
Especially if I could just goup in one of those observation
posts for like six monthsand stay there and just
(31:27):
look at trees, thatwould be really nice.
How about you, Fred?
FRED RASCOE (31:30):
I don't think I have done citizen science,
but if I could, itwould have anything
to do with pickingup, finding fossils.
I think that would be perfect.
CHARLIE BENNETT (31:38):
I mean, I think you've done a lot of that.
That probably counts.
FRED RASCOE (31:40):
I need to write it, though, I
guess, to make it science.
CHARLIE BENNETT (31:42):
There you go.
Marlee?
MARLEE GIVENS (31:43):
Yeah, that sounds like you, Fred.
Well, I mean, Ibrought up the people
watching earlier because Ithink that would be up my alley.
But then I thought, oh, no, whatif people see me as a threat?
So maybe I could just like,take notes on all the kitty
cats in my neighborhood?
What about you, Danielle?
DANIELLE (32:01):
Yeah.
So I used to work at thezoo, and a lot of my friends
would send me pictures of snakesand ask me to identify them.
I got them rightabout 50% of the time.
But i still like to do that,but mostly now, with dog breeds.
ALEX MCGEE (32:16):
So Marlee literally took mine,
I was going to talk aboutkitty cats, but that's OK.
So I'm just going todefer to aliens, so
extraterrestrial life.
CODY (32:27):
When I got accepted to Georgia Tech,
me and my highschool friend thought
that we had to do alittle bit of research
in order to go to aresearch university.
So we made some survey aboutdifferent belief systems
and just loitered outsideWalmart's and parking lots
trying to get peopleto fill our survey out.
We learned the differencebetween public and private
spaces, and then we postedit as a Myspace bulletin
(32:48):
to all of our friends to see.
CHARLIE BENNETT (32:51):
Oh, my God.
OK, Fred, roll the credits.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
ALEX MCGEE (33:00):
Lost in the Stacks is
a collaboration between WREKAtlanta and the Georgia Tech
Library.
Written and produced byAlex McGee, Charlie Bennett,
Fred Rascoe, and Marlee Givens.
CHARLIE BENNETT (33:10):
Legal counsel and a book
with 15 years ofcitizen-described weather
data from the BurrusIntellectual Property Law Group
in Atlanta, Georgia.
Philip does everything.
MARLEE GIVENS (33:19):
Mm-hmm.
Special thanks toMegan for being
on the show, to citizenscientists everywhere,
and thanks, as always,to each and every one
of you for listening.
ALEX MCGEE (33:28):
Our web page is library.gatech.e
du/lostinthestacks, where you'llfind our most recent episode,
a link to our podcastfeed, and a web form
if you want to getin touch with us.
MARLEE GIVENS: Next week, we won't (33:38):
undefined
be in the studio,the wonky studio,
but you will hear a specialepisode, guest produced
by retroTech's Dillon Henry.
FRED RASCOE (33:46):
Nice.
So it's time forour last song today.
If you're a citizen withno scientific training,
but have a strong senseof curiosity combined
with an appreciationof the natural world,
you might be justthe sort of person
to dabble in some citizenscience of your own.
You don't need to goto an exotic location.
There is a lot ofscience you can do right
in your own backyard.
(34:09):
You can just take pictures ofgross bugs in your backyard,
too.
That's fun.
This is, to close out,"Back in Your Own Backyard,"
by Billie Holiday.
Have a great weekend, everybody.
Hope you observe somethingwonderful and cool
in the world this week.
[BILLIE HOLIDAY, "BACK IN YOUROWN BACKYARD"]
(34:31):
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