June 6, 2025 • 58 mins
First broadcast June 6 2025.
Playlist here; transcript at: https://hdl.handle.net/1853/77966
"Marlee and I are returning to a topic that we discussed twice on the air, and probably a ton off-air."
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
[MUSIC PLAYING]
(00:02):
MARLEE GIVENS (00:03):
I still think it's worth doing.
And I will saythat, personally, I
feel so much morerewarded as a librarian
with these bespokeand deep connections
with a handful of people.
And it is harder forme to really measure
the value of these otherthings that, as you mentioned,
learning modules,video tutorials,
(00:23):
those kinds of things,the self-service
that we're putting in place.
And again, why am I tryingto measure any of this,
when I should be happy?
CHARLIE BENNETT (00:34):
[LAUGHS]
[MUSIC PLAYING]
(01:00):
You are listeningto WREK Atlanta.
And this is Lost in theStacks, the Research Library
Rock'n'Roll Radio Show.
I'm Charlie Bennett, in thestudio with Marlee Givens
and Cody Turner.
It's a chill summer, reducedstaffing kind of day.
MARLEE GIVENS (01:14):
Yeah.
CHARLIE BENNETT (01:15):
Each week on Lost in the Stacks,
we pick a theme, and then useit to create a mix of music
and library talk.
Whichever you're herefor, we hope you dig it.
MARLEE GIVENS (01:24):
Our show today is called Slow Train
Coming Up Around the Bend.
CHARLIE BENNETT: That's a long title. (01:28):
undefined
MARLEE GIVENS (01:29):
Yeah.
Well, it's a quote from a BobDylan song, called "Slow Train,"
and that is therefrain of that song.
CHARLIE BENNETT (01:37):
[LAUGHS]
MARLEE GIVENS (01:38):
Now that I have said slow at least
twice, if you're along-time listener,
you've probably already guessedwhat this episode is about.
CHARLIE BENNETT (01:46):
Marlee and I are returning to a topic
that we discussed twiceon the air in 2023.
MARLEE GIVENS (01:52):
It's amazing.
CHARLIE BENNETT (01:53):
Probably a ton off air for the past five years.
MARLEE GIVENS (01:57):
That's true.
CHARLIE BENNETT: Slow librarianship. (01:58):
undefined
MARLEE GIVENS (01:59):
Yeah.
So Meredith Farkas, FacultyLibrarian at Portland Community
College in Oregon,is a key figure
in the constructionof slow librarianship,
inspired on the one handby the slow food movement,
and on the other byJulia Glassman's article,
"The Innovation Fetishand Slow Librarianship--
(02:20):
What Librarians CanLearn From the Juicero."
CHARLIE BENNETT (02:22):
And let me interrupt you there
for just a moment.
I can't tell anyonewhat to do, but I
can say I think everylibrarian ought to read
that article at some point.
MARLEE GIVENS (02:33):
Mm-hmm.
So here's part of MeredithFarkas' current definition
of slow librarianship.
CHARLIE BENNETT (02:39):
Internally, slow library culture
is focused on learningand reflection,
collaboration andsolidarity, valuing
all kinds of contributions,and supporting staff
as whole people.
Slow librarianship-- Ijust heard Cody go "hmm,"
so I think we're onthe right track here.
(03:00):
Slow librarianship is aprocess, not a destination.
It is an orientation towardsour work, ourselves and others
that create positive change.
MARLEE GIVENS (03:11):
We will not lean into the current research
and ideation on slowlibrarianship today.
We already did that in 2023.
CHARLIE BENNETT (03:17):
We've covered that territory.
MARLEE GIVENS (03:19):
Right, in our shows "Pump the Brakes"
and "Quietly Refusing to Quit."
What we want todo in this episode
is check in with each other.
How have we applied principlesof slow librarianship?
Is that going well?
Are we happy?
CHARLIE BENNETT (03:33):
Are we happy?
MARLEE GIVENS (03:34):
And what should we do next?
CHARLIE BENNETT (03:36):
I feel like only one
question is really important.
MARLEE GIVENS (03:38):
Oh, yeah.
CHARLIE BENNETT (03:39):
Our music theme today
is pretty straightforward--work and slowness,
or slowness and work.
One core value ofslow librarianship
is recognizing the work as aprocess, a regular thing that
doesn't need to be stuffed withinnovation to be successful.
You are driving, thejob's not driving you.
MARLEE GIVENS (03:58):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (03:59):
You're behind the wheel.
So this is "Get Behindthe Wheel" by Neil Young,
right here on Lostin the Stacks.
[NEIL YOUNG, "GET BEHIND THEWHEEL"]
MARLEE GIVENS (04:23):
That was "Get Behind the Wheel" by Neil Young.
This is Lost in theStacks, and our show today
is Slow Train ComingUp Around the Bend.
CHARLIE BENNETT: Have you figured out (04:30):
undefined
whether we're thetrain or the bend?
MARLEE GIVENS (04:34):
Oh.
Hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (04:37):
Or some other thing?
MARLEE GIVENS (04:39):
No.
CHARLIE BENNETT (04:40):
Is the train coming at us--
MARLEE GIVENS (04:40):
I hadn't even thought about it.
CHARLIE BENNETT (04:41):
--slow, or?
MARLEE GIVENS (04:42):
Yeah.
CHARLIE BENNETT (04:42):
[LAUGHS]
MARLEE GIVENS (04:42):
I don't know.
I mean, I guess the bendis always there, right?
CHARLIE BENNETT (04:47):
Yeah.
MARLEE GIVENS (04:47):
There's always something coming up
around the bend.
And I think, now that you'veforced me to think about it,
that we are, as practitionersof slow librarianship,
may be better able to handlethe bends in the road.
CHARLIE BENNETT: That's really good. (05:04):
undefined
I like that.
MARLEE GIVENS (05:05):
I know.
CHARLIE BENNETT (05:06):
We've played a lot with the metaphor--
MARLEE GIVENS (05:08):
I think, yeah.
CHARLIE BENNETT (05:08):
--of the train.
MARLEE GIVENS (05:09):
I think so.
I think so.
Charlie, what do youfeel has changed for you
since our last show in 2023?
CHARLIE BENNETT (05:16):
So the end of 2023, November, I think,
was the last show,Quietly Refusing to Quit.
Which came from a lot ofthe, they call it churn,
I think, in corporate America?
We'd had some at theGeorgia Tech Library.
I went back and I looked overa few of my performance reviews
to try and set myself in theheadspace of after our shows.
(05:41):
And it turns out I was atthe very end of a rope.
I did not know this was comingwhen we finished the last show,
but it came very fast.
I had a performancereview with my department
head and my associate Dean,and I was told flat out,
you are teaching too much.
(06:03):
Which is kind of a crazything to hear, because isn't
that something good?
Shouldn't I bedoing a lot of it?
And I also know that that'skind of like saying, well,
two cups of coffeemade me feel great.
So six cups of coffee willmake me feel fantastic.
CODY TURNER (06:18):
Charlie, was that the first time you
had heard that?
CHARLIE BENNETT (06:22):
Not the first time I'd heard it,
but it's the first time Ihad heard it from someone
in a position to review me.
CODY TURNER (06:27):
Right.
CHARLIE BENNETT (06:29):
I've said this many times before.
I took an irrationalpleasure in people saying,
"how do you get everythingdone, you're doing so much,
you must work very hard,"all that kind of stuff.
So that's where I was at rightas we finished the last show.
I was at the cusp of areevaluation of how much
I was doing, and why.
MARLEE GIVENS (06:50):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (06:50):
Where were you?
MARLEE GIVENS (06:52):
So I think that was
the year that I had gotten asmall promotion as a team lead.
CHARLIE BENNETT (07:00):
Yeah, we kind of joked about that a little bit
on the show.
MARLEE GIVENS (07:03):
Yeah.
And so I guess I was just maybethinking a little bit more
about the team.
And I think I wasjust up for talking
about slow librarianship--
CHARLIE BENNETT (07:18):
[LAUGHS]
MARLEE GIVENS (07:20):
--at the time.
What's changed sincethen is that I've gotten
a bit more of a promotion.
CHARLIE BENNETT (07:27):
I think you should be very explicit.
Some people don't exactly knowwhat you're talking about.
MARLEE GIVENS (07:31):
OK.
CHARLIE BENNETT (07:32):
We're both in the same department,
academic engagement.
MARLEE GIVENS (07:34):
Yes.
CHARLIE BENNETT (07:34):
And you are currently?
MARLEE GIVENS (07:35):
I'm currently instruction manager
for academic engagement.
And so now I supervisethree people.
And now that sameperson who told you
you're teaching toomuch is now telling me
what I need to be sayingto folks on my team.
And we have a lotof conversations
about justdistributing the work.
CHARLIE BENNETT (07:58):
Yeah.
MARLEE GIVENS (08:01):
Our manager, obviously,
has been in the positionfor over a year now.
And I think one of the thingsthat they've done really
successfully is an ideathat they brought in
to that position, was we needto be doing more stuff as teams
in our department so that wecan more equitably balance
(08:25):
that work for everyone.
And people canlearn those skills
that we don't need to have.
The two people youmentioned, the Associate Dean
and the Manager, theAssociate Dean, especially,
used this term ofindependent contractor,
or independent operator,something like that.
CHARLIE BENNETT (08:45):
Yeah.
MARLEE GIVENS (08:46):
I mean, basically what
she was saying was wedon't need to have any rock
stars in this department.
And we don't need to be settingthat expectation for new people
coming in, that theyshould be hustling
and they should bedeveloping a niche,
and they should be the pointperson and the subject matter
expert for a certain thing.
And so there's been a periodof breaking that, I think,
(09:11):
they felt like maybe theyneeded to break that for you.
And they needed to break itfor at least one other person
in the department, tosay, look, you are now
going to teach a couple ofother people to do what you do.
CHARLIE BENNETT (09:29):
I can follow up on that.
MARLEE GIVENS (09:31):
Yeah.
CHARLIE BENNETT (09:31):
It was a very kind version of this.
But what I was told, andwhat has come to fruition,
was, hey, quit.
MARLEE GIVENS (09:40):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (09:41):
You have got to stop pushing yourself
in one particular area.
You've got to openthat up to everybody,
and you've got to openyourself up to more.
MARLEE GIVENS (09:51):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (09:52):
And I did not take it personal, which
I think some people might have.
I took it as a surprise.
I've been tryingto be the "Fred".
This is my job.
I should do what the people whogave me the job want me to do,
not what I think will makethe job something else.
MARLEE GIVENS (10:12):
Yeah, but not as a passive,
just tell me what todo and I'll do it.
CHARLIE BENNETT (10:15):
No, no, it was guidance.
It was new track that they'dlaid for my particular train.
MARLEE GIVENS (10:20):
[LAUGH]
CHARLIE BENNETT (10:21):
And I did.
I decentralized my one-manshop of podcasting instruction.
MARLEE GIVENS (10:28):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (10:29):
I taught 86 or 89 course integrated instruction
sessions in 2023.
MARLEE GIVENS (10:37):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (10:38):
In 2024, I taught 44.
MARLEE GIVENS (10:41):
Yeah.
CHARLIE BENNETT (10:42):
And that was the most explicit change.
And also, I just kindof relaxed a little bit.
MARLEE GIVENS (10:53):
Yeah.
CHARLIE BENNETT (10:54):
All right, this is Lost in the Stacks.
We'll be back with moreon slow librarianship.
I think we've set thescene, and now we're
going to drive right intoit after a music set.
MARLEE GIVENS (11:04):
File this set under HD69.T54.A454.
[THE BEATLES, "SLOW DOWN"]
THE BEATLES (11:19):
(SINGING) --love to last
Ow!
Woo!
MARLEE GIVENS (11:29):
Woo, Indeed.
That was "Slow Down"by the Beatles.
And before that, "Stop theTrain" by Mother Earth.
Songs about needingto slow down.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
This is Lost in the Stacks.
And today's show is called SlowTrain Coming Up Around the Bend.
(11:51):
So we talked about slowlibrarianship almost two
years ago, the last time.
Why are we thinkingabout it again?
CHARLIE BENNETT (12:03):
So there's a little transparency here.
We were always going to bejust you and me in the studio
MARLEE GIVENS (12:09):
Today.
CHARLIE BENNETT (12:09):
Yeah, because Alex and Fred
have a thing to do.
Thank you, Cody, for being onthe board this time around.
So then asking ourselves, well,what should we chat about?
MARLEE GIVENS (12:18):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (12:19):
It was clear we should
continue the slowlibrarianship conversation.
MARLEE GIVENS (12:23):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (12:24):
And I think there are a few reasons.
The one that comes tomy mind immediately
is that we went through adepartmental shift in 2024.
MARLEE GIVENS (12:35):
Yeah.
CHARLIE BENNETT (12:36):
We got a new department head,
and an internal candidatebecame department head--
MARLEE GIVENS (12:42):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (12:43):
--which is a very special thing--
MARLEE GIVENS (12:45):
Yeah.
CHARLIE BENNETT: --when you have someone (12:45):
undefined
who's been in the department,who has been living with it,
and is in discussion with admin,then becomes department head.
MARLEE GIVENS (12:57):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (12:58):
It can go very badly.
This time it did not, though.
MARLEE GIVENS (13:01):
Yeah.
It can, you're right.
I wouldn't say that it wentbadly the previous time.
CHARLIE BENNETT (13:09):
I'm not thinking of the previous time.
MARLEE GIVENS (13:11):
No.
OK.
CHARLIE BENNETT (13:12):
Thinking a couple of times back.
MARLEE GIVENS (13:13):
All right.
CHARLIE BENNETT (13:14):
[LAUGHS]
MARLEE GIVENS (13:15):
But it was the first internal candidate
as a permanent headof the department
under a whole newlibrary leadership group.
And that libraryleadership group, I think,
ushered in more ofa cultural shift.
(13:36):
Also, we were at theend of the whole library
next phenomenon, which was allabout going fast, innovating,
making a splash, doing somethingthat could get us noticed.
CHARLIE BENNETT (13:53):
And if I can sum up one of the things
we learned about that.
If you hire a bunch ofpeople to be innovators,
once you're done innovatingand need to go to maintenance,
they're tired--
MARLEE GIVENS (14:04):
Yeah.
CHARLIE BENNETT (14:05):
--and don't want to do it anymore.
MARLEE GIVENS (14:07):
Right.
It's interesting for thisconversation, I think,
because there was agroup of people who
were brought in to innovate.
And then they were told, nowyou need to stop and slow down.
Or now you need to stopor slow down, I guess.
CHARLIE BENNETT (14:27):
Yeah.
MARLEE GIVENS (14:30):
Yeah, I think that was an interesting shift.
I was kind of surprised to hearthat coming from our leadership
at the time.
CHARLIE BENNETT: Surprised because you (14:39):
undefined
didn't think it should happen,or surprised because you
didn't expect it to?
MARLEE GIVENS (14:44):
Yeah, because we'd been on such a fast train,
really.
CHARLIE BENNETT (14:49):
Yeah.
And I was part of that train--
MARLEE GIVENS (14:51):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (14:52):
--a little bit on the side.
I've always made sure that Iwasn't responsible for anything.
I had long conversations.
I would discuss designwith architects.
But I made sure I wasnever in the meetings
that someone wouldsay, are we doing this?
(15:14):
Yes, we are.
Everyone vote.
And partly that's because Iwas just a librarian, too.
It's not like I wassupposed to be in charge.
But I talk a good game, andthat got me into a few meetings.
MARLEE GIVENS (15:24):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (15:26):
And I was burning out, too, but kind of
on my own terms.
MARLEE GIVENS (15:31):
Yeah.
CHARLIE BENNETT (15:32):
As opposed to in a job that people said,
"innovate."
MARLEE GIVENS (15:35):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT: "Be a go-getter." (15:36):
undefined
MARLEE GIVENS (15:37):
Right.
CHARLIE BENNETT (15:38):
So there was a cultural shift.
And also, I think rightnow I feel vulnerable
because of how the Americanproject is changing.
MARLEE GIVENS (15:53):
Yeah.
I know, thinking of newleadership and cultural shift,
writ large, as we say.
CHARLIE BENNETT (16:01):
Yeah.
Grand declarationsof how things ought
to be seem to leave outinnovation in education,
seem to leave out creatingthe kind of free, open space
of research and learning.
MARLEE GIVENS (16:19):
Right.
CHARLIE BENNETT (16:20):
And to imply everybody
should be learning a trade.
It might be a morecomputer-based trade,
or it might be a littlefancier than blacksmithery.
MARLEE GIVENS (16:34):
Right.
CHARLIE BENNETT (16:36):
I feel like it's possible
that my niche is being reduced.
MARLEE GIVENS (16:43):
OK.
Yeah.
Just because ofhigher ed these days?
CHARLIE BENNETT (16:50):
Yeah.
Because I was in a placewhere I could provide an idea
and run with it.
MARLEE GIVENS (16:59):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (17:00):
Because most of the things I came up with,
I made sure, well,let's make sure I
don't have to ask for money.
MARLEE GIVENS (17:05):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (17:06):
Because I'd seen a lot of people
go down in flames becausethey had to ask for money.
MARLEE GIVENS (17:09):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (17:10):
So bringing my move fast,
break things innovation, leavebehind an interesting conference
presentation kindof style, I think
that it will not fly anymore.
Or we're coming up on a momentwhen it will just absolutely not
fly.
MARLEE GIVENS (17:28):
Yeah.
We underwent our ownkind of corporatization
during library next, becausewe brought in formal project
management.
And now the thingsthat you need to get
if you need to get somethingdone at the Georgia Tech
Library, you have to doit within that system.
CHARLIE BENNETT (17:46):
You present an idea to the portfolio.
The portfolio gets voted on.
The project gets built,da-da, da-da, da-da.
MARLEE GIVENS (17:51):
Your project gets some scrutiny.
CHARLIE BENNETT (17:53):
Status reports.
MARLEE GIVENS (17:54):
Yeah, status reports.
And also this ideathat now that we're
five years into theoutcomes of Library Next
that we're taking a look at allof these things that we created,
and determining whether they'restill doing what we want them
(18:16):
to do, if they'restill the things that
serve our users best.
Yeah.
CHARLIE BENNETT (18:21):
If we were a restaurant,
we would be doinga review right now.
Because some of the dishes thatwe're making don't taste good,
and no one orders them.
MARLEE GIVENS (18:30):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (18:30):
There's some spaces in the library
that we programmed thatare just kind of absent.
There's some servicesthat we planned
on that have not happened,have not gained traction.
MARLEE GIVENS (18:42):
Right.
CHARLIE BENNETT (18:43):
And so slow librarianship
does seem to be A, a defenseagainst that kind of thing.
MARLEE GIVENS (18:51):
Yeah, I can see that.
CHARLIE BENNETT (18:53):
And B, a more successful strategy
in a time of reflection andrefinement and reduction.
MARLEE GIVENS (19:05):
You're listening to Lost in the Stacks.
And we'll talk moreabout slow librarianship
on the left side of the hour.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
JEFF HETHERINGTON (19:26):
Hi.
I'm local archivistextraordinaire Jeff
Hetherington, and you'relistening to Lost in the Stacks
on WREK Atlanta.
Good thinking.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
CHARLIE BENNETT (19:42):
Today's show is called Slow Train
Coming Up Around the Bend.
Marlee Givens andI are continuing
our years-long conversationabout slow librarianship.
For a mid-show break, I'd likeus to listen to an excerpt from
the book, How To Do Nothing--
Resisting the AttentionEconomy, by Jenny Odell.
You'll hear Rebecca Gibblereading from the book, and maybe
(20:05):
a little extra somethingthat I added to the mix.
REBECCA GIBBLE (20:09):
"Nothing is harder to do than nothing.
In a world where our value isdetermined by our productivity,
many of us find our every lastminute captured, optimized,
or appropriated asa financial resource
by the technologieswe use daily.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
(20:30):
We submit our free timeto numerical evaluation,
interact with algorithmicversions of each other,
and build and maintainpersonal brands.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
For some, there may be a kindof engineer's satisfaction
in the streamliningand networking
of our entire lived experience.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
(20:51):
And yet, a certainnervous feeling
of being overstimulatedand unable to sustain
a train of thought lingers.
Though it can be hard tograsp before it disappears
behind the screenof distraction,
this feeling is,in fact, urgent.
We still recognizethat much of what
(21:12):
gives one's life meaning stemsfrom accidents, interruptions,
and serendipitous encounters--
the off-time that a mechanisticview of experience seeks
to eliminate."
[MUSIC PLAYING]
CHARLIE BENNETT (21:29):
File this set under PS3551.T49R63.
[KACEY MUSGRAVES, "SLOW BURN"]
(21:51):
That was "Slow Burn"by Kacey Musgraves.
A song about beingslow, and liking it.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
This is Lost in the Stacks.
Our show today is called SlowTrain Coming Up Around the Bend.
Marlee and I are talkingabout slow librarianship--
MARLEE GIVENS (22:08):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT: --which we've been (22:09):
undefined
talking about for a long time.
MARLEE GIVENS (22:11):
Mm-hmm.
First time as a train, I think.
CHARLIE BENNETT (22:14):
That's true.
MARLEE GIVENS (22:14):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT: But we are trying (22:15):
undefined
to assess what hashappened less than trying
to figure out what are we goingto do, or what can it mean.
MARLEE GIVENS (22:28):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (22:29):
So I feel like right now we
have a few areas wide open forus to apply slow librarianship.
MARLEE GIVENS (22:38):
I think you're right.
CHARLIE BENNETT (22:39):
And I wonder, have we, are we, and will we?
MARLEE GIVENS (22:44):
Uh-huh.
CHARLIE BENNETT (22:45):
The thing I want to throw out first
is teams--
MARLEE GIVENS (22:47):
Right.
CHARLIE BENNETT: --just generally-- (22:47):
undefined
and not Microsoft Teams--
MARLEE GIVENS (22:49):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (22:50):
--but the idea of a team.
Because for a long time, Iwas one person doing a lot
and trying to stayout of the way.
As I said in the segmentbefore, I tried to stay out
of the responsibility rooms andwork much more in the, "hey,
what happens if" rooms.
And I'm not doingthat much anymore.
MARLEE GIVENS (23:11):
Yeah.
Do you feel like it's anidea that you used to resist,
and then you came around?
Or is it just like you weren'teven really thinking about it,
and then you had a chanceto do it, and you're like,
oh, this is pretty great?
CHARLIE BENNETT (23:29):
I am going to sound like I'm just sucking up
to admin right now.
But previously, the way theadministration and departments
worked when there was a lotof different personalities
than there are now, itwas easiest to be like,
(23:50):
I'm good to go.
I'm going to go do this thing.
MARLEE GIVENS (23:52):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (23:52):
And they were happy to be like, OK, good.
I don't have to worry about you.
I have to worry about budgets.
MARLEE GIVENS (23:56):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (23:57):
I don't have to worry about you,
I have to worry abouttwo departments that
are fighting because theyused to be one department.
MARLEE GIVENS (24:04):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (24:05):
And they split along ideological lines.
MARLEE GIVENS (24:07):
Right.
CHARLIE BENNETT: Things like that. (24:08):
undefined
So it was simpler for me.
But now it's not.
It's not simpler tobe alone and isolated.
It's much easier to takeon a task like decentralize
this instruction session, trainsome people in order to do it.
MARLEE GIVENS (24:24):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (24:25):
Yeah.
MARLEE GIVENS (24:25):
Yeah.
CHARLIE BENNETT: What do you think? (24:26):
undefined
MARLEE GIVENS (24:27):
Well, I'm thinking about the fact
that I haven't really hadto experience that yet.
I think I'm goingto this coming year.
CHARLIE BENNETT (24:36):
Why?
MARLEE GIVENS: Because of something (24:37):
undefined
that we discussed in anothershow about the liaison model.
CHARLIE BENNETT (24:43):
It's just a big discussion.
MARLEE GIVENS (24:45):
Yeah.
CHARLIE BENNETT: Lost in the Stacks (24:46):
undefined
is just us working it out.
[LAUGHTER]
What was it that we said?
MARLEE GIVENS (24:52):
Well, I think we were talking about the fact
that it used to be a one-to-one,or a one-to-many model,
where if you are a GeorgiaTech student or professor,
you had your one librarianyou could turn to
for all of your research andteaching and whatnot needs.
(25:12):
And we're going to beintroducing this idea
that if you're a Georgia Techstudent or professor in college
x or y, you have ateam that you turn to.
And you may not get thesame person every time.
CHARLIE BENNETT (25:26):
Yeah.
But you get the library--
MARLEE GIVENS (25:30):
You get the library.
CHARLIE BENNETT (25:30):
--very time.
MARLEE GIVENS (25:31):
Exactly.
And how it doesn't reallymatter to the user, probably.
But I think it's goingto matter a lot to us,
and we're havingto work things out
like, how are we going totriage requests that come in?
And for me, I thinkmaybe in the back
of my mind I am a littleworried about sharing what I do.
CHARLIE BENNETT (25:52):
See, that's the thing right there.
So part of the slowlibrarianship description
at the top of the show wascollaboration and solidarity.
MARLEE GIVENS (26:00):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT: And the one thing (26:01):
undefined
that makes that really hard--
I mean, I think we allplay well with others,
and we like ourgroups and our teams.
But academiclibrarianship allows
you to do a lot of specialstuff just for yourself.
MARLEE GIVENS (26:20):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (26:21):
You get to build a course session
that you walk in and teach.
Or you get to do a researchproject with a faculty
member who wants you tofind a citation for a speech
given in 1813.
MARLEE GIVENS (26:33):
Right.
CHARLIE BENNETT: That kind of thing. (26:34):
undefined
And it can be very fun.
And it's kind of rewardingto be not mainstream.
MARLEE GIVENS (26:41):
Right.
CHARLIE BENNETT (26:42):
To not be the expected thing.
But then you isolate yourself.
MARLEE GIVENS (26:49):
That's true.
And I think thatultimately it will
be rewarding to be ableto pass on that knowledge.
And I'll admit that I amnot overwhelmed with demand
from the schools that I serve.
But I know that on the team I'llbe serving schools that maybe
(27:09):
are a little more demanding.
CHARLIE BENNETT (27:11):
Yeah.
And by going to a team model andreinventing the liaison role,
part of that is usselling that more.
MARLEE GIVENS (27:20):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT: Delivering it out (27:21):
undefined
to more, because wecan take on more.
MARLEE GIVENS (27:24):
Right.
CHARLIE BENNETT (27:25):
The individual boutique service
is very fun and very rewarding,but it does create a limit.
And it's not thinking aboutthe library as a whole.
MARLEE GIVENS (27:37):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (27:38):
We have a ton of other stuff
we could talk about.
MARLEE GIVENS (27:40):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (27:41):
But I want to end this segment
with us asking each other, soprofessionally, are you happy?
MARLEE GIVENS (27:49):
I am.
Are you?
CHARLIE BENNETT (27:51):
Me, too.
I am super happy.
MARLEE GIVENS (27:53):
Oh, good.
CHARLIE BENNETT (27:54):
Having the release from some
of that cognitive load of havingto do all of the podcasting
instruction on myown, feeling more
like I am serving the largerpicture and having that
acknowledged and validatedby my team leader.
Yeah, I'm happier.
(28:16):
This is the most relaxed I'vebeen about work since the '90s.
MARLEE GIVENS (28:21):
Oh, wow.
CHARLIE BENNETT (28:22):
And much of that relaxation
was internally inflicted.
MARLEE GIVENS (28:27):
OK.
CHARLIE BENNETT: I guess that's it. (28:30):
undefined
This is Lost in the Stacks.
We've been talking aboutslow librarianship today.
And we ended with, are we happy?
And I'm delighted toreport, sure thing.
MARLEE GIVENS (28:41):
Yeah.
File this under BF632.L635.
[ALANIS MORISSETTE, "YOU LEARN"]
(29:14):
"You Learn," byAlanis Morissette.
And before that, "Suggestions,"by Small Factory.
Songs providing a little adviceabout enjoying life and being
happy.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
(29:35):
Today's show is called SlowTrain Coming Up Around the Bend.
And before we roll the credits,I was wondering, both of you,
is there anotherarea of your life
where you thinkabout fast and slow?
Charlie?
CHARLIE BENNETT: Yeah, I'm hitting that (29:49):
undefined
with media consumption now.
MARLEE GIVENS (29:53):
Mm.
CHARLIE BENNETT: To put it simply, (29:54):
undefined
I can't read everybook I want to read.
I can't see every televisionshow I want to see.
I can't see everymovie I want to see.
I can't listen to everyrecord I want to listen to.
I can't even listento some of them.
Like, statistically, I can'tread, listen, or watch anything.
So I'm just accepting that.
MARLEE GIVENS (30:12):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (30:12):
I'm reading a book right now.
I'm reading that book thatI quoted for the amen break
and how to do nothing.
Taking my time, andI'm not worrying
about getting through itso I can read the next one.
MARLEE GIVENS (30:23):
All right.
CHARLIE BENNETT: How about you, Cody? (30:24):
undefined
CODY TURNER (30:25):
If I'm following these academic definitions,
I think for me--
CHARLIE BENNETT (30:30):
That's so cute that you're
going to bring it in like that.
CODY TURNER: --transportation, because I (30:32):
undefined
don't own a carin Atlanta, I get
around by bike, andsometimes MARTA.
So most of the time I'm thinkingin slow for transportation.
CHARLIE BENNETT (30:41):
Yeah.
MARLEE GIVENS (30:42):
Mm-hmm.
CODY TURNER (30:43):
Because I'm fine taking the time to get there,
I actually enjoy the ride.
So the only time that I'mthinking about a fast way
to get around isreally if I'm thinking
that I'm inconveniencingsomeone else too
much to take the slow way.
MARLEE GIVENS (30:58):
Hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (30:59):
That's a really good answer.
I like that one.
CODY TURNER (31:01):
Is it?
I just came up with it.
Marlee, what about you?
MARLEE GIVENS (31:03):
I think that's good.
Yeah.
So I'm going to say travel.
And I feel like, for me, there'stwo different kinds of travel.
There's the, I'm going totry to do as many things
and see as many things as I can,because I don't know if I'm ever
going to come back here.
CHARLIE BENNETT (31:19):
Yeah.
MARLEE GIVENS (31:20):
Which I love doing that.
I love all the planning.
CHARLIE BENNETT (31:24):
The packed itinerary,
MARLEE GIVENS (31:27):
I'm fine with skipping things,
but it still feels likefast travel in my mind.
Whereas slow travelis, we're just
going to drive to the beach.
We're not goingto have any plans.
We'll bring some books.
If we spend the whole time justsitting on the beach, that's OK.
(31:48):
It's just a wonderful break.
CHARLIE BENNETT (31:50):
You know what's fantastic about that, Marlee?
The credits are perfectfor that answer.
Why don't you roll them?
MARLEE GIVENS (31:56):
All right.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
CHARLIE BENNETT: Lost in the Stacks (32:03):
undefined
is a collaboration between WREKAtlanta and the Georgia Tech
Library.
Written and produced by--
oh!
MARLEE GIVENS (32:12):
I know!
I know!
CHARLIE BENNETT: That's so funny. (32:13):
undefined
Alex McGee, Charlie Bennett,Marlee Givens, and Fred Rascoe.
MARLEE GIVENS (32:20):
So many things wrong with this script.
CHARLIE BENNETT (32:22):
What happened?
Someone did some kind of--
MARLEE GIVENS (32:25):
Yeah.
CHARLIE BENNETT (32:26):
--find and replace, I guess.
MARLEE GIVENS (32:27):
I think it's me.
Yeah.
CHARLIE BENNETT (32:29):
Oh, Marlee.
MARLEE GIVENS (32:30):
I'm so sorry.
CHARLIE BENNETT (32:31):
Legal counsel and nothing--
nothing at all, because it's OKto sometimes just do nothing--
were provided by the BurrusIntellectual Property Law Group
in Atlanta, Georgia.
MARLEE GIVENS (32:41):
Special thanks to Julia Glassman, Meredith Farkas,
and all of thelibrarians out there
who approach the jobwith care and balance.
And thanks, as always, toeach and every one of you
for listening.
CHARLIE BENNETT (32:52):
Our web page is library.gatech.e
du/lostinthestacks, where you'llfind our most recent episode,
a link to our podcastfeed, and a web form
if you want to getin touch with us.
MARLEE GIVENS (33:05):
Next week, well, it's Friday the 13th.
CHARLIE BENNETT: Oh, my gosh, it is. (33:08):
undefined
MARLEE GIVENS (33:08):
I'm sure it'll be all sunshine and rainbows.
CHARLIE BENNETT (33:11):
[LAUGHS] Time for our last song today.
Our show title is Slow TrainComing Up Around the Bend.
I don't know if we're thetrain, or if the train is coming
to take us somewhere, or ifwe're tied to the tracks,
or if we built the train, orif we laid the tracks, or what.
But I do know whichsong that line is from,
so let's just play it.
(33:31):
This is "SlowTrain" by Bob Dylan.
Have a great weekend,everyone-- slowly, if you can.
Just do it however you want.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
[MUSIC PLAYING]
(00:02):
MARLEE GIVENS (00:03):
I still think it's worth doing.
And I will saythat, personally, I
feel so much morerewarded as a librarian
with these bespokeand deep connections
with a handful of people.
And it is harder forme to really measure
the value of these otherthings that, as you mentioned,
learning modules,video tutorials,
(00:23):
those kinds of things,the self-service
that we're putting in place.
And again, why am I tryingto measure any of this,
when I should be happy?
CHARLIE BENNETT (00:34):
[LAUGHS]
[MUSIC PLAYING]
(01:00):
You are listeningto WREK Atlanta.
And this is Lost in theStacks, the Research Library
Rock'n'Roll Radio Show.
I'm Charlie Bennett, in thestudio with Marlee Givens
and Cody Turner.
It's a chill summer, reducedstaffing kind of day.
MARLEE GIVENS (01:14):
Yeah.
CHARLIE BENNETT (01:15):
Each week on Lost in the Stacks,
we pick a theme, and then useit to create a mix of music
and library talk.
Whichever you're herefor, we hope you dig it.
MARLEE GIVENS (01:24):
Our show today is called Slow Train
Coming Up Around the Bend.
CHARLIE BENNETT: That's a long title. (01:28):
undefined
MARLEE GIVENS (01:29):
Yeah.
Well, it's a quote from a BobDylan song, called "Slow Train,"
and that is therefrain of that song.
CHARLIE BENNETT (01:37):
[LAUGHS]
MARLEE GIVENS (01:38):
Now that I have said slow at least
twice, if you're along-time listener,
you've probably already guessedwhat this episode is about.
CHARLIE BENNETT (01:46):
Marlee and I are returning to a topic
that we discussed twiceon the air in 2023.
MARLEE GIVENS (01:52):
It's amazing.
CHARLIE BENNETT (01:53):
Probably a ton off air for the past five years.
MARLEE GIVENS (01:57):
That's true.
CHARLIE BENNETT: Slow librarianship. (01:58):
undefined
MARLEE GIVENS (01:59):
Yeah.
So Meredith Farkas, FacultyLibrarian at Portland Community
College in Oregon,is a key figure
in the constructionof slow librarianship,
inspired on the one handby the slow food movement,
and on the other byJulia Glassman's article,
"The Innovation Fetishand Slow Librarianship--
(02:20):
What Librarians CanLearn From the Juicero."
CHARLIE BENNETT (02:22):
And let me interrupt you there
for just a moment.
I can't tell anyonewhat to do, but I
can say I think everylibrarian ought to read
that article at some point.
MARLEE GIVENS (02:33):
Mm-hmm.
So here's part of MeredithFarkas' current definition
of slow librarianship.
CHARLIE BENNETT (02:39):
Internally, slow library culture
is focused on learningand reflection,
collaboration andsolidarity, valuing
all kinds of contributions,and supporting staff
as whole people.
Slow librarianship-- Ijust heard Cody go "hmm,"
so I think we're onthe right track here.
(03:00):
Slow librarianship is aprocess, not a destination.
It is an orientation towardsour work, ourselves and others
that create positive change.
MARLEE GIVENS (03:11):
We will not lean into the current research
and ideation on slowlibrarianship today.
We already did that in 2023.
CHARLIE BENNETT (03:17):
We've covered that territory.
MARLEE GIVENS (03:19):
Right, in our shows "Pump the Brakes"
and "Quietly Refusing to Quit."
What we want todo in this episode
is check in with each other.
How have we applied principlesof slow librarianship?
Is that going well?
Are we happy?
CHARLIE BENNETT (03:33):
Are we happy?
MARLEE GIVENS (03:34):
And what should we do next?
CHARLIE BENNETT (03:36):
I feel like only one
question is really important.
MARLEE GIVENS (03:38):
Oh, yeah.
CHARLIE BENNETT (03:39):
Our music theme today
is pretty straightforward--work and slowness,
or slowness and work.
One core value ofslow librarianship
is recognizing the work as aprocess, a regular thing that
doesn't need to be stuffed withinnovation to be successful.
You are driving, thejob's not driving you.
MARLEE GIVENS (03:58):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (03:59):
You're behind the wheel.
So this is "Get Behindthe Wheel" by Neil Young,
right here on Lostin the Stacks.
[NEIL YOUNG, "GET BEHIND THEWHEEL"]
MARLEE GIVENS (04:23):
That was "Get Behind the Wheel" by Neil Young.
This is Lost in theStacks, and our show today
is Slow Train ComingUp Around the Bend.
CHARLIE BENNETT: Have you figured out (04:30):
undefined
whether we're thetrain or the bend?
MARLEE GIVENS (04:34):
Oh.
Hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (04:37):
Or some other thing?
MARLEE GIVENS (04:39):
No.
CHARLIE BENNETT (04:40):
Is the train coming at us--
MARLEE GIVENS (04:40):
I hadn't even thought about it.
CHARLIE BENNETT (04:41):
--slow, or?
MARLEE GIVENS (04:42):
Yeah.
CHARLIE BENNETT (04:42):
[LAUGHS]
MARLEE GIVENS (04:42):
I don't know.
I mean, I guess the bendis always there, right?
CHARLIE BENNETT (04:47):
Yeah.
MARLEE GIVENS (04:47):
There's always something coming up
around the bend.
And I think, now that you'veforced me to think about it,
that we are, as practitionersof slow librarianship,
may be better able to handlethe bends in the road.
CHARLIE BENNETT: That's really good. (05:04):
undefined
I like that.
MARLEE GIVENS (05:05):
I know.
CHARLIE BENNETT (05:06):
We've played a lot with the metaphor--
MARLEE GIVENS (05:08):
I think, yeah.
CHARLIE BENNETT (05:08):
--of the train.
MARLEE GIVENS (05:09):
I think so.
I think so.
Charlie, what do youfeel has changed for you
since our last show in 2023?
CHARLIE BENNETT (05:16):
So the end of 2023, November, I think,
was the last show,Quietly Refusing to Quit.
Which came from a lot ofthe, they call it churn,
I think, in corporate America?
We'd had some at theGeorgia Tech Library.
I went back and I looked overa few of my performance reviews
to try and set myself in theheadspace of after our shows.
(05:41):
And it turns out I was atthe very end of a rope.
I did not know this was comingwhen we finished the last show,
but it came very fast.
I had a performancereview with my department
head and my associate Dean,and I was told flat out,
you are teaching too much.
(06:03):
Which is kind of a crazything to hear, because isn't
that something good?
Shouldn't I bedoing a lot of it?
And I also know that that'skind of like saying, well,
two cups of coffeemade me feel great.
So six cups of coffee willmake me feel fantastic.
CODY TURNER (06:18):
Charlie, was that the first time you
had heard that?
CHARLIE BENNETT (06:22):
Not the first time I'd heard it,
but it's the first time Ihad heard it from someone
in a position to review me.
CODY TURNER (06:27):
Right.
CHARLIE BENNETT (06:29):
I've said this many times before.
I took an irrationalpleasure in people saying,
"how do you get everythingdone, you're doing so much,
you must work very hard,"all that kind of stuff.
So that's where I was at rightas we finished the last show.
I was at the cusp of areevaluation of how much
I was doing, and why.
MARLEE GIVENS (06:50):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (06:50):
Where were you?
MARLEE GIVENS (06:52):
So I think that was
the year that I had gotten asmall promotion as a team lead.
CHARLIE BENNETT (07:00):
Yeah, we kind of joked about that a little bit
on the show.
MARLEE GIVENS (07:03):
Yeah.
And so I guess I was just maybethinking a little bit more
about the team.
And I think I wasjust up for talking
about slow librarianship--
CHARLIE BENNETT (07:18):
[LAUGHS]
MARLEE GIVENS (07:20):
--at the time.
What's changed sincethen is that I've gotten
a bit more of a promotion.
CHARLIE BENNETT (07:27):
I think you should be very explicit.
Some people don't exactly knowwhat you're talking about.
MARLEE GIVENS (07:31):
OK.
CHARLIE BENNETT (07:32):
We're both in the same department,
academic engagement.
MARLEE GIVENS (07:34):
Yes.
CHARLIE BENNETT (07:34):
And you are currently?
MARLEE GIVENS (07:35):
I'm currently instruction manager
for academic engagement.
And so now I supervisethree people.
And now that sameperson who told you
you're teaching toomuch is now telling me
what I need to be sayingto folks on my team.
And we have a lotof conversations
about justdistributing the work.
CHARLIE BENNETT (07:58):
Yeah.
MARLEE GIVENS (08:01):
Our manager, obviously,
has been in the positionfor over a year now.
And I think one of the thingsthat they've done really
successfully is an ideathat they brought in
to that position, was we needto be doing more stuff as teams
in our department so that wecan more equitably balance
(08:25):
that work for everyone.
And people canlearn those skills
that we don't need to have.
The two people youmentioned, the Associate Dean
and the Manager, theAssociate Dean, especially,
used this term ofindependent contractor,
or independent operator,something like that.
CHARLIE BENNETT (08:45):
Yeah.
MARLEE GIVENS (08:46):
I mean, basically what
she was saying was wedon't need to have any rock
stars in this department.
And we don't need to be settingthat expectation for new people
coming in, that theyshould be hustling
and they should bedeveloping a niche,
and they should be the pointperson and the subject matter
expert for a certain thing.
And so there's been a periodof breaking that, I think,
(09:11):
they felt like maybe theyneeded to break that for you.
And they needed to break itfor at least one other person
in the department, tosay, look, you are now
going to teach a couple ofother people to do what you do.
CHARLIE BENNETT (09:29):
I can follow up on that.
MARLEE GIVENS (09:31):
Yeah.
CHARLIE BENNETT (09:31):
It was a very kind version of this.
But what I was told, andwhat has come to fruition,
was, hey, quit.
MARLEE GIVENS (09:40):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (09:41):
You have got to stop pushing yourself
in one particular area.
You've got to openthat up to everybody,
and you've got to openyourself up to more.
MARLEE GIVENS (09:51):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (09:52):
And I did not take it personal, which
I think some people might have.
I took it as a surprise.
I've been tryingto be the "Fred".
This is my job.
I should do what the people whogave me the job want me to do,
not what I think will makethe job something else.
MARLEE GIVENS (10:12):
Yeah, but not as a passive,
just tell me what todo and I'll do it.
CHARLIE BENNETT (10:15):
No, no, it was guidance.
It was new track that they'dlaid for my particular train.
MARLEE GIVENS (10:20):
[LAUGH]
CHARLIE BENNETT (10:21):
And I did.
I decentralized my one-manshop of podcasting instruction.
MARLEE GIVENS (10:28):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (10:29):
I taught 86 or 89 course integrated instruction
sessions in 2023.
MARLEE GIVENS (10:37):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (10:38):
In 2024, I taught 44.
MARLEE GIVENS (10:41):
Yeah.
CHARLIE BENNETT (10:42):
And that was the most explicit change.
And also, I just kindof relaxed a little bit.
MARLEE GIVENS (10:53):
Yeah.
CHARLIE BENNETT (10:54):
All right, this is Lost in the Stacks.
We'll be back with moreon slow librarianship.
I think we've set thescene, and now we're
going to drive right intoit after a music set.
MARLEE GIVENS (11:04):
File this set under HD69.T54.A454.
[THE BEATLES, "SLOW DOWN"]
THE BEATLES (11:19):
(SINGING) --love to last
Ow!
Woo!
MARLEE GIVENS (11:29):
Woo, Indeed.
That was "Slow Down"by the Beatles.
And before that, "Stop theTrain" by Mother Earth.
Songs about needingto slow down.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
This is Lost in the Stacks.
And today's show is called SlowTrain Coming Up Around the Bend.
(11:51):
So we talked about slowlibrarianship almost two
years ago, the last time.
Why are we thinkingabout it again?
CHARLIE BENNETT (12:03):
So there's a little transparency here.
We were always going to bejust you and me in the studio
MARLEE GIVENS (12:09):
Today.
CHARLIE BENNETT (12:09):
Yeah, because Alex and Fred
have a thing to do.
Thank you, Cody, for being onthe board this time around.
So then asking ourselves, well,what should we chat about?
MARLEE GIVENS (12:18):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (12:19):
It was clear we should
continue the slowlibrarianship conversation.
MARLEE GIVENS (12:23):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (12:24):
And I think there are a few reasons.
The one that comes tomy mind immediately
is that we went through adepartmental shift in 2024.
MARLEE GIVENS (12:35):
Yeah.
CHARLIE BENNETT (12:36):
We got a new department head,
and an internal candidatebecame department head--
MARLEE GIVENS (12:42):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (12:43):
--which is a very special thing--
MARLEE GIVENS (12:45):
Yeah.
CHARLIE BENNETT: --when you have someone (12:45):
undefined
who's been in the department,who has been living with it,
and is in discussion with admin,then becomes department head.
MARLEE GIVENS (12:57):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (12:58):
It can go very badly.
This time it did not, though.
MARLEE GIVENS (13:01):
Yeah.
It can, you're right.
I wouldn't say that it wentbadly the previous time.
CHARLIE BENNETT (13:09):
I'm not thinking of the previous time.
MARLEE GIVENS (13:11):
No.
OK.
CHARLIE BENNETT (13:12):
Thinking a couple of times back.
MARLEE GIVENS (13:13):
All right.
CHARLIE BENNETT (13:14):
[LAUGHS]
MARLEE GIVENS (13:15):
But it was the first internal candidate
as a permanent headof the department
under a whole newlibrary leadership group.
And that libraryleadership group, I think,
ushered in more ofa cultural shift.
(13:36):
Also, we were at theend of the whole library
next phenomenon, which was allabout going fast, innovating,
making a splash, doing somethingthat could get us noticed.
CHARLIE BENNETT (13:53):
And if I can sum up one of the things
we learned about that.
If you hire a bunch ofpeople to be innovators,
once you're done innovatingand need to go to maintenance,
they're tired--
MARLEE GIVENS (14:04):
Yeah.
CHARLIE BENNETT (14:05):
--and don't want to do it anymore.
MARLEE GIVENS (14:07):
Right.
It's interesting for thisconversation, I think,
because there was agroup of people who
were brought in to innovate.
And then they were told, nowyou need to stop and slow down.
Or now you need to stopor slow down, I guess.
CHARLIE BENNETT (14:27):
Yeah.
MARLEE GIVENS (14:30):
Yeah, I think that was an interesting shift.
I was kind of surprised to hearthat coming from our leadership
at the time.
CHARLIE BENNETT: Surprised because you (14:39):
undefined
didn't think it should happen,or surprised because you
didn't expect it to?
MARLEE GIVENS (14:44):
Yeah, because we'd been on such a fast train,
really.
CHARLIE BENNETT (14:49):
Yeah.
And I was part of that train--
MARLEE GIVENS (14:51):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (14:52):
--a little bit on the side.
I've always made sure that Iwasn't responsible for anything.
I had long conversations.
I would discuss designwith architects.
But I made sure I wasnever in the meetings
that someone wouldsay, are we doing this?
(15:14):
Yes, we are.
Everyone vote.
And partly that's because Iwas just a librarian, too.
It's not like I wassupposed to be in charge.
But I talk a good game, andthat got me into a few meetings.
MARLEE GIVENS (15:24):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (15:26):
And I was burning out, too, but kind of
on my own terms.
MARLEE GIVENS (15:31):
Yeah.
CHARLIE BENNETT (15:32):
As opposed to in a job that people said,
"innovate."
MARLEE GIVENS (15:35):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT: "Be a go-getter." (15:36):
undefined
MARLEE GIVENS (15:37):
Right.
CHARLIE BENNETT (15:38):
So there was a cultural shift.
And also, I think rightnow I feel vulnerable
because of how the Americanproject is changing.
MARLEE GIVENS (15:53):
Yeah.
I know, thinking of newleadership and cultural shift,
writ large, as we say.
CHARLIE BENNETT (16:01):
Yeah.
Grand declarationsof how things ought
to be seem to leave outinnovation in education,
seem to leave out creatingthe kind of free, open space
of research and learning.
MARLEE GIVENS (16:19):
Right.
CHARLIE BENNETT (16:20):
And to imply everybody
should be learning a trade.
It might be a morecomputer-based trade,
or it might be a littlefancier than blacksmithery.
MARLEE GIVENS (16:34):
Right.
CHARLIE BENNETT (16:36):
I feel like it's possible
that my niche is being reduced.
MARLEE GIVENS (16:43):
OK.
Yeah.
Just because ofhigher ed these days?
CHARLIE BENNETT (16:50):
Yeah.
Because I was in a placewhere I could provide an idea
and run with it.
MARLEE GIVENS (16:59):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (17:00):
Because most of the things I came up with,
I made sure, well,let's make sure I
don't have to ask for money.
MARLEE GIVENS (17:05):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (17:06):
Because I'd seen a lot of people
go down in flames becausethey had to ask for money.
MARLEE GIVENS (17:09):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (17:10):
So bringing my move fast,
break things innovation, leavebehind an interesting conference
presentation kindof style, I think
that it will not fly anymore.
Or we're coming up on a momentwhen it will just absolutely not
fly.
MARLEE GIVENS (17:28):
Yeah.
We underwent our ownkind of corporatization
during library next, becausewe brought in formal project
management.
And now the thingsthat you need to get
if you need to get somethingdone at the Georgia Tech
Library, you have to doit within that system.
CHARLIE BENNETT (17:46):
You present an idea to the portfolio.
The portfolio gets voted on.
The project gets built,da-da, da-da, da-da.
MARLEE GIVENS (17:51):
Your project gets some scrutiny.
CHARLIE BENNETT (17:53):
Status reports.
MARLEE GIVENS (17:54):
Yeah, status reports.
And also this ideathat now that we're
five years into theoutcomes of Library Next
that we're taking a look at allof these things that we created,
and determining whether they'restill doing what we want them
(18:16):
to do, if they'restill the things that
serve our users best.
Yeah.
CHARLIE BENNETT (18:21):
If we were a restaurant,
we would be doinga review right now.
Because some of the dishes thatwe're making don't taste good,
and no one orders them.
MARLEE GIVENS (18:30):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (18:30):
There's some spaces in the library
that we programmed thatare just kind of absent.
There's some servicesthat we planned
on that have not happened,have not gained traction.
MARLEE GIVENS (18:42):
Right.
CHARLIE BENNETT (18:43):
And so slow librarianship
does seem to be A, a defenseagainst that kind of thing.
MARLEE GIVENS (18:51):
Yeah, I can see that.
CHARLIE BENNETT (18:53):
And B, a more successful strategy
in a time of reflection andrefinement and reduction.
MARLEE GIVENS (19:05):
You're listening to Lost in the Stacks.
And we'll talk moreabout slow librarianship
on the left side of the hour.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
JEFF HETHERINGTON (19:26):
Hi.
I'm local archivistextraordinaire Jeff
Hetherington, and you'relistening to Lost in the Stacks
on WREK Atlanta.
Good thinking.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
CHARLIE BENNETT (19:42):
Today's show is called Slow Train
Coming Up Around the Bend.
Marlee Givens andI are continuing
our years-long conversationabout slow librarianship.
For a mid-show break, I'd likeus to listen to an excerpt from
the book, How To Do Nothing--
Resisting the AttentionEconomy, by Jenny Odell.
You'll hear Rebecca Gibblereading from the book, and maybe
(20:05):
a little extra somethingthat I added to the mix.
REBECCA GIBBLE (20:09):
"Nothing is harder to do than nothing.
In a world where our value isdetermined by our productivity,
many of us find our every lastminute captured, optimized,
or appropriated asa financial resource
by the technologieswe use daily.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
(20:30):
We submit our free timeto numerical evaluation,
interact with algorithmicversions of each other,
and build and maintainpersonal brands.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
For some, there may be a kindof engineer's satisfaction
in the streamliningand networking
of our entire lived experience.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
(20:51):
And yet, a certainnervous feeling
of being overstimulatedand unable to sustain
a train of thought lingers.
Though it can be hard tograsp before it disappears
behind the screenof distraction,
this feeling is,in fact, urgent.
We still recognizethat much of what
(21:12):
gives one's life meaning stemsfrom accidents, interruptions,
and serendipitous encounters--
the off-time that a mechanisticview of experience seeks
to eliminate."
[MUSIC PLAYING]
CHARLIE BENNETT (21:29):
File this set under PS3551.T49R63.
[KACEY MUSGRAVES, "SLOW BURN"]
(21:51):
That was "Slow Burn"by Kacey Musgraves.
A song about beingslow, and liking it.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
This is Lost in the Stacks.
Our show today is called SlowTrain Coming Up Around the Bend.
Marlee and I are talkingabout slow librarianship--
MARLEE GIVENS (22:08):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT: --which we've been (22:09):
undefined
talking about for a long time.
MARLEE GIVENS (22:11):
Mm-hmm.
First time as a train, I think.
CHARLIE BENNETT (22:14):
That's true.
MARLEE GIVENS (22:14):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT: But we are trying (22:15):
undefined
to assess what hashappened less than trying
to figure out what are we goingto do, or what can it mean.
MARLEE GIVENS (22:28):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (22:29):
So I feel like right now we
have a few areas wide open forus to apply slow librarianship.
MARLEE GIVENS (22:38):
I think you're right.
CHARLIE BENNETT (22:39):
And I wonder, have we, are we, and will we?
MARLEE GIVENS (22:44):
Uh-huh.
CHARLIE BENNETT (22:45):
The thing I want to throw out first
is teams--
MARLEE GIVENS (22:47):
Right.
CHARLIE BENNETT: --just generally-- (22:47):
undefined
and not Microsoft Teams--
MARLEE GIVENS (22:49):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (22:50):
--but the idea of a team.
Because for a long time, Iwas one person doing a lot
and trying to stayout of the way.
As I said in the segmentbefore, I tried to stay out
of the responsibility rooms andwork much more in the, "hey,
what happens if" rooms.
And I'm not doingthat much anymore.
MARLEE GIVENS (23:11):
Yeah.
Do you feel like it's anidea that you used to resist,
and then you came around?
Or is it just like you weren'teven really thinking about it,
and then you had a chanceto do it, and you're like,
oh, this is pretty great?
CHARLIE BENNETT (23:29):
I am going to sound like I'm just sucking up
to admin right now.
But previously, the way theadministration and departments
worked when there was a lotof different personalities
than there are now, itwas easiest to be like,
(23:50):
I'm good to go.
I'm going to go do this thing.
MARLEE GIVENS (23:52):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (23:52):
And they were happy to be like, OK, good.
I don't have to worry about you.
I have to worry about budgets.
MARLEE GIVENS (23:56):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (23:57):
I don't have to worry about you,
I have to worry abouttwo departments that
are fighting because theyused to be one department.
MARLEE GIVENS (24:04):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (24:05):
And they split along ideological lines.
MARLEE GIVENS (24:07):
Right.
CHARLIE BENNETT: Things like that. (24:08):
undefined
So it was simpler for me.
But now it's not.
It's not simpler tobe alone and isolated.
It's much easier to takeon a task like decentralize
this instruction session, trainsome people in order to do it.
MARLEE GIVENS (24:24):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (24:25):
Yeah.
MARLEE GIVENS (24:25):
Yeah.
CHARLIE BENNETT: What do you think? (24:26):
undefined
MARLEE GIVENS (24:27):
Well, I'm thinking about the fact
that I haven't really hadto experience that yet.
I think I'm goingto this coming year.
CHARLIE BENNETT (24:36):
Why?
MARLEE GIVENS: Because of something (24:37):
undefined
that we discussed in anothershow about the liaison model.
CHARLIE BENNETT (24:43):
It's just a big discussion.
MARLEE GIVENS (24:45):
Yeah.
CHARLIE BENNETT: Lost in the Stacks (24:46):
undefined
is just us working it out.
[LAUGHTER]
What was it that we said?
MARLEE GIVENS (24:52):
Well, I think we were talking about the fact
that it used to be a one-to-one,or a one-to-many model,
where if you are a GeorgiaTech student or professor,
you had your one librarianyou could turn to
for all of your research andteaching and whatnot needs.
(25:12):
And we're going to beintroducing this idea
that if you're a Georgia Techstudent or professor in college
x or y, you have ateam that you turn to.
And you may not get thesame person every time.
CHARLIE BENNETT (25:26):
Yeah.
But you get the library--
MARLEE GIVENS (25:30):
You get the library.
CHARLIE BENNETT (25:30):
--very time.
MARLEE GIVENS (25:31):
Exactly.
And how it doesn't reallymatter to the user, probably.
But I think it's goingto matter a lot to us,
and we're havingto work things out
like, how are we going totriage requests that come in?
And for me, I thinkmaybe in the back
of my mind I am a littleworried about sharing what I do.
CHARLIE BENNETT (25:52):
See, that's the thing right there.
So part of the slowlibrarianship description
at the top of the show wascollaboration and solidarity.
MARLEE GIVENS (26:00):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT: And the one thing (26:01):
undefined
that makes that really hard--
I mean, I think we allplay well with others,
and we like ourgroups and our teams.
But academiclibrarianship allows
you to do a lot of specialstuff just for yourself.
MARLEE GIVENS (26:20):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (26:21):
You get to build a course session
that you walk in and teach.
Or you get to do a researchproject with a faculty
member who wants you tofind a citation for a speech
given in 1813.
MARLEE GIVENS (26:33):
Right.
CHARLIE BENNETT: That kind of thing. (26:34):
undefined
And it can be very fun.
And it's kind of rewardingto be not mainstream.
MARLEE GIVENS (26:41):
Right.
CHARLIE BENNETT (26:42):
To not be the expected thing.
But then you isolate yourself.
MARLEE GIVENS (26:49):
That's true.
And I think thatultimately it will
be rewarding to be ableto pass on that knowledge.
And I'll admit that I amnot overwhelmed with demand
from the schools that I serve.
But I know that on the team I'llbe serving schools that maybe
(27:09):
are a little more demanding.
CHARLIE BENNETT (27:11):
Yeah.
And by going to a team model andreinventing the liaison role,
part of that is usselling that more.
MARLEE GIVENS (27:20):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT: Delivering it out (27:21):
undefined
to more, because wecan take on more.
MARLEE GIVENS (27:24):
Right.
CHARLIE BENNETT (27:25):
The individual boutique service
is very fun and very rewarding,but it does create a limit.
And it's not thinking aboutthe library as a whole.
MARLEE GIVENS (27:37):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (27:38):
We have a ton of other stuff
we could talk about.
MARLEE GIVENS (27:40):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (27:41):
But I want to end this segment
with us asking each other, soprofessionally, are you happy?
MARLEE GIVENS (27:49):
I am.
Are you?
CHARLIE BENNETT (27:51):
Me, too.
I am super happy.
MARLEE GIVENS (27:53):
Oh, good.
CHARLIE BENNETT (27:54):
Having the release from some
of that cognitive load of havingto do all of the podcasting
instruction on myown, feeling more
like I am serving the largerpicture and having that
acknowledged and validatedby my team leader.
Yeah, I'm happier.
(28:16):
This is the most relaxed I'vebeen about work since the '90s.
MARLEE GIVENS (28:21):
Oh, wow.
CHARLIE BENNETT (28:22):
And much of that relaxation
was internally inflicted.
MARLEE GIVENS (28:27):
OK.
CHARLIE BENNETT: I guess that's it. (28:30):
undefined
This is Lost in the Stacks.
We've been talking aboutslow librarianship today.
And we ended with, are we happy?
And I'm delighted toreport, sure thing.
MARLEE GIVENS (28:41):
Yeah.
File this under BF632.L635.
[ALANIS MORISSETTE, "YOU LEARN"]
(29:14):
"You Learn," byAlanis Morissette.
And before that, "Suggestions,"by Small Factory.
Songs providing a little adviceabout enjoying life and being
happy.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
(29:35):
Today's show is called SlowTrain Coming Up Around the Bend.
And before we roll the credits,I was wondering, both of you,
is there anotherarea of your life
where you thinkabout fast and slow?
Charlie?
CHARLIE BENNETT: Yeah, I'm hitting that (29:49):
undefined
with media consumption now.
MARLEE GIVENS (29:53):
Mm.
CHARLIE BENNETT: To put it simply, (29:54):
undefined
I can't read everybook I want to read.
I can't see every televisionshow I want to see.
I can't see everymovie I want to see.
I can't listen to everyrecord I want to listen to.
I can't even listento some of them.
Like, statistically, I can'tread, listen, or watch anything.
So I'm just accepting that.
MARLEE GIVENS (30:12):
Mm-hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (30:12):
I'm reading a book right now.
I'm reading that book thatI quoted for the amen break
and how to do nothing.
Taking my time, andI'm not worrying
about getting through itso I can read the next one.
MARLEE GIVENS (30:23):
All right.
CHARLIE BENNETT: How about you, Cody? (30:24):
undefined
CODY TURNER (30:25):
If I'm following these academic definitions,
I think for me--
CHARLIE BENNETT (30:30):
That's so cute that you're
going to bring it in like that.
CODY TURNER: --transportation, because I (30:32):
undefined
don't own a carin Atlanta, I get
around by bike, andsometimes MARTA.
So most of the time I'm thinkingin slow for transportation.
CHARLIE BENNETT (30:41):
Yeah.
MARLEE GIVENS (30:42):
Mm-hmm.
CODY TURNER (30:43):
Because I'm fine taking the time to get there,
I actually enjoy the ride.
So the only time that I'mthinking about a fast way
to get around isreally if I'm thinking
that I'm inconveniencingsomeone else too
much to take the slow way.
MARLEE GIVENS (30:58):
Hmm.
CHARLIE BENNETT (30:59):
That's a really good answer.
I like that one.
CODY TURNER (31:01):
Is it?
I just came up with it.
Marlee, what about you?
MARLEE GIVENS (31:03):
I think that's good.
Yeah.
So I'm going to say travel.
And I feel like, for me, there'stwo different kinds of travel.
There's the, I'm going totry to do as many things
and see as many things as I can,because I don't know if I'm ever
going to come back here.
CHARLIE BENNETT (31:19):
Yeah.
MARLEE GIVENS (31:20):
Which I love doing that.
I love all the planning.
CHARLIE BENNETT (31:24):
The packed itinerary,
MARLEE GIVENS (31:27):
I'm fine with skipping things,
but it still feels likefast travel in my mind.
Whereas slow travelis, we're just
going to drive to the beach.
We're not goingto have any plans.
We'll bring some books.
If we spend the whole time justsitting on the beach, that's OK.
(31:48):
It's just a wonderful break.
CHARLIE BENNETT (31:50):
You know what's fantastic about that, Marlee?
The credits are perfectfor that answer.
Why don't you roll them?
MARLEE GIVENS (31:56):
All right.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
CHARLIE BENNETT: Lost in the Stacks (32:03):
undefined
is a collaboration between WREKAtlanta and the Georgia Tech
Library.
Written and produced by--
oh!
MARLEE GIVENS (32:12):
I know!
I know!
CHARLIE BENNETT: That's so funny. (32:13):
undefined
Alex McGee, Charlie Bennett,Marlee Givens, and Fred Rascoe.
MARLEE GIVENS (32:20):
So many things wrong with this script.
CHARLIE BENNETT (32:22):
What happened?
Someone did some kind of--
MARLEE GIVENS (32:25):
Yeah.
CHARLIE BENNETT (32:26):
--find and replace, I guess.
MARLEE GIVENS (32:27):
I think it's me.
Yeah.
CHARLIE BENNETT (32:29):
Oh, Marlee.
MARLEE GIVENS (32:30):
I'm so sorry.
CHARLIE BENNETT (32:31):
Legal counsel and nothing--
nothing at all, because it's OKto sometimes just do nothing--
were provided by the BurrusIntellectual Property Law Group
in Atlanta, Georgia.
MARLEE GIVENS (32:41):
Special thanks to Julia Glassman, Meredith Farkas,
and all of thelibrarians out there
who approach the jobwith care and balance.
And thanks, as always, toeach and every one of you
for listening.
CHARLIE BENNETT (32:52):
Our web page is library.gatech.e
du/lostinthestacks, where you'llfind our most recent episode,
a link to our podcastfeed, and a web form
if you want to getin touch with us.
MARLEE GIVENS (33:05):
Next week, well, it's Friday the 13th.
CHARLIE BENNETT: Oh, my gosh, it is. (33:08):
undefined
MARLEE GIVENS (33:08):
I'm sure it'll be all sunshine and rainbows.
CHARLIE BENNETT (33:11):
[LAUGHS] Time for our last song today.
Our show title is Slow TrainComing Up Around the Bend.
I don't know if we're thetrain, or if the train is coming
to take us somewhere, or ifwe're tied to the tracks,
or if we built the train, orif we laid the tracks, or what.
But I do know whichsong that line is from,
so let's just play it.
(33:31):
This is "SlowTrain" by Bob Dylan.
Have a great weekend,everyone-- slowly, if you can.
Just do it however you want.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
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