June 27, 2025 • 62 mins
Guests: Dennis Nangle and Ashley Sands of the Institute of Museum and Library Services (IMLS)
First broadcast June 27 2025. Transcript at https://hdl.handle.net/1853/78008
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"Our listeners probably know about DOGE."
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
[UPBEAT MUSIC]
(00:02):
ASHLEY SANDS (00:04):
Every dollar that goes
into a library producesx number of dollars
into that library's community.
And so when you talkabout efficiency,
putting money into libraries isextremely efficient in growing
communities.
And so of all the thingsto take away funding from,
libraries and museums is oneof the poorest choices when
(00:29):
it comes to ensuringthat a local economy
and a local communityare able to grow.
[THEME MUSIC]
CHARLIE BENNETT (01:00):
You are listening to WREK Atlanta.
And this is Lost in theStacks, the research library
rock and roll radio show.
I'm Charlie Bennettin the studio
with, well, not quite askeleton crew, but Fred Rascoe
and Cody Turner.
Each week on Lost in theStacks, we pick a theme
and then use it to create amix of music and library talk.
Whichever you're herefor, we hope you dig it.
FRED RASCOE (01:22):
Our show today is called "The IMLS:
Grappling with Uncertaintyin the Time of DOGE."
CHARLIE BENNETT: That doesn't even (01:28):
undefined
sound like it meansanything, dude.
FRED RASCOE (01:31):
Our listeners probably know about DOGE.
CHARLIE BENNETT (01:33):
More than they'd like, I bet.
FRED RASCOE (01:35):
But what about IMLS?
That might be a newone to some folks.
CHARLIE BENNETT (01:39):
For our non-librarian listeners,
that's the Institute ofMuseum and Library Services.
It's one of the manyfederal agencies
that was threatened with closureby an executive order issued
by the White House 15 years ago.
FRED RASCOE (01:54):
In spite of the fact that it's an agency--
it seems like it, yeah.
In spite of the factthat it's an agency
mandated to exist byCongressional act.
CHARLIE BENNETT (02:03):
And I kind of stomped over that.
And we should pointthat out one more time.
It's a congressionallymandated federal agency.
FRED RASCOE (02:10):
For now.
CHARLIE BENNETT: It's a small agency. (02:11):
undefined
It's less than five thousandthsof 1% of the federal budget.
It has fewer than 100 employees.
But it's doing important workfor libraries and museums
across the country.
FRED RASCOE (02:23):
So today, we're talking
to a couple of IMLSemployees about what
the IMLS is, what happenedwhen DOGE showed up,
and what is potentially lostif IMLS goes away forever.
CHARLIE BENNETT (02:37):
I made a joke about time earlier.
It is important to note thatthis interview, recorded, took
place at the end of May.
And as we all know,in this environment,
situations change pretty fast.
We'll try to give a fewupdates at the end of the show.
FRED RASCOE (02:54):
And our songs today are about your tax dollars
and striving for betterresults in the system
and lots of uncertainty.
For a long time, librarians haverelied on agencies like the IMLS
to provide access toimportant community resources
when their own funds fell short.
But in recentyears, we've started
to see thesesupports dismantled,
(03:15):
leaving communities wonderinghow much worse things could get.
CHARLIE BENNETT (03:19):
Oh, man.
FRED RASCOE (03:20):
A dangerous question.
So let's start with "Did YouThink Things Could Ever Get This
Bad" by Sissy Space Echo and TheInvisible Collaborators right
here on Lost in the Stacks.
CHARLIE BENNETT (03:30):
Fred, we've talked about the optimism
aspect of the show.
FRED RASCOE (03:33):
Yeah, sorry.
CHARLIE BENNETT (03:43):
That was "Did You Think Things Could Ever Get
This Bad" by Sissy Space Echoand The Invisible Collaborators.
This is Lost in the Stacks.
And today, we're playingan interview recorded
in late May 2025 with twoemployees of the federal agency
near and dear to the heart ofmany librarians, the Institute
(04:04):
of Museum and LibraryServices, the IMLS.
Let's meet our guests andfind out what they do.
DENNIS NANGLE (04:11):
My name is Dennis Nangle.
My title is seniorprogram officer.
And I work under theGrants to States program
within the Officeof Library Services.
And I'm still employed by IMLS.
I am scheduled to returnto the office on June 2.
(04:33):
Up until now, I've beenon administrative leave.
ASHLEY SANDS (04:36):
And I am Ashley Sands.
I am also a senior libraryprogram officer at IMLS.
Dennis and I workin adjacent offices.
He's more on the Grantsto States side of things,
and I'm more on thediscretionary side of things.
We've been eight and a half plusyears getting to work at IMLS.
Currently, I'm also onadministrative leave
(04:58):
but designated to return tooffice next Monday on June 2.
CHARLIE BENNETT (05:04):
Has administrative leave given you
COVID flashbacks at all?
ASHLEY SANDS (05:09):
[LAUGHS]
DENNIS NANGLE (05:10):
Yeah.
It's interesting.
I will say thisentire space that I
am in is a product of COVID.
It's my basement officethat was, prior to COVID,
not finished at all.
And it is interesting, thissort of adapting and reacting
to things that are--
(05:31):
not unraveling, butrevealing itself
and unfolding by the minute.
So yes, I definitely--
I see some parallels for sure.
FRED RASCOE (05:43):
A big situation out of your control.
DENNIS NANGLE (05:46):
Right.
Right.
ASHLEY SANDS (05:48):
Yes.
The loss of control isprobably the hardest part.
I think a lot of us are havinganxiety about the uncertainty.
And as you have seen in thenews, things have changed.
Sometimes by the day,something new has come out.
I can't even keep up with whereexactly we are all the time.
FRED RASCOE (06:10):
So there is a daily stream
of news about multiplegovernment agencies,
Institute of Museum andLibrary Services, IMLS,
being one of those.
And so we will get into howearthshaking those changes are.
But first, I wantto-- for listeners
(06:32):
who may not be familiar--some of our listeners
are not in the library world.
And so to tell them whatthe IMLS is, how would you
explain what that is?
And if it's somethingthat's zeroed out,
what's the consequence of that?
DENNIS NANGLE (06:50):
Yeah, I think about our masthead statement
that we have gotten used toreciting for these many years.
But we are the primary source offederal funding for the nation's
libraries and museums.
And it is--
I would say, it's nice tohave Ashley here with me,
(07:12):
because I feel like, especiallyin the library side of things,
the work that we do isrepresented in our two offices,
whereas my work is thisinfrastructural support,
and Ashley's is supportingthe further development
and evolution and progress ofthe field and of the profession.
ASHLEY SANDS (07:33):
Just like Dennis was saying,
IMLS's reach hasblock grants that
are based on population thatgo to each state library.
And what's really great isthat it's a state library
plus all the territories.
So there's actually56 of those grants
that are awarded each year.
And just as hesaid, those states
(07:54):
get to use that forwhatever they need.
Those funds are meetingyou where you are.
So whether you're lesstechnologically savvy--
maybe you just need more books.
Maybe you need moreonline subscriptions.
Or maybe you're doing somemore transformative work
in the Memory Laband teaching people
(08:15):
how to scan theirold photographs
and old digital media,that kind of thing.
It's meeting thoselibraries where they are.
They make their workplans, and they say what
they need to use the funds for.
The discretionary program,just like Dennis was saying,
is for these moreinnovative ideas
or for taking great ideasthat people have started
to pilot at their ownlocations and scaling them
(08:38):
up, scaling them out, gettingthese great ideas to new places.
So it's both that infrastructureand that scaling out
and getting of new ideas,which is really exciting
and give some power tothese brilliant librarians
all over the country who havethese great ideas about how
to improve services.
FRED RASCOE (08:58):
So one thing that I've seen in the news,
when we're talking about thingsthat are lost when these grant
funds can no longerbe disbursed,
I see things in the news likeSouth Dakota statewide cannot do
interlibrary loan anymore.
Mississippi public librarystatewide cannot lend out ebooks
(09:23):
anymore.
They had to cancelthat subscription.
Something that Ihaven't seen a lot of
are things like youmentioned, like the Memory
Lab and other innovative ideas.
What are some examples of those?
Or can you talk about maybewhat the memory lab is
or any other example thatcomes to mind that goes away
if the IMLS does not fund it?
ASHLEY SANDS (09:44):
Yeah.
So it really depends on whereyou are, which state you're in.
I believe it wasMaine, what I heard,
has already had to lay offfolks at the state library.
So those are positionsthat are lost,
those are positions whowere doing services.
But things like the Memory Labare likely the first to go.
So the Memory Lab isthis great program
(10:05):
that was startedby someone working
at the Library of Congressand has been expanded out
where different libraries aregiven the old infrastructure
to be able to-- oldVHS or other kinds
of readers of digital media.
And then you can havelabs where you teach folks
(10:27):
how to use thoseold readers to get
digital copies of your photos,slides, that kind of a thing.
So that's something that couldbe one of the first things
to go, staffing that kindof a thing when you need
to be able to really instead payattention to those circulating
(10:47):
books or circulatingdigital resources
and trying to keep some of thatmore immediate pieces coming
and going.
CHARLIE BENNETT: So what I'm hearing (10:56):
undefined
is that you keep thelights on and also
help people experimentwith new things to do.
DENNIS NANGLE (11:04):
Yeah.
And "keep the lightson" is interesting,
especially on the Grantsto States side of things,
because it's me and two othersthat oversee Grants to States
for all 56 statesand territories.
So we all have aportfolio of states.
I have 20.
And just in this current climateand perception of what a federal
(11:25):
worker does, that'sjust something--
and I can speakfor Ashley also--
that culturally at IMLSis of critical importance
of just being,pursuing excellence
in making sure that we aresupporting our recipients,
but also trainingthem well, helping
them understandwhat can and can't
(11:47):
be used with federal funds.
And with Grants to States,there is a lot of stipulations
as far as theseare federal funds.
And while we want to provideyou with infrastructure,
it is not intended tobe operating costs.
So it's important we--
when I go on sitevisits and when
(12:08):
we're talking torecipients, it's
just, if I see something ina report that says, oh, you
can't just be throwingthis toward utilities
or if you were thinkingabout doing that,
that's not somethingthat federal funds do.
And I bring that upjust as an example of we
just really want toemphasize that we
know what federal fundsare supposed to be for.
(12:28):
We know that there is supposedto be a, I would almost say,
a staffing infrastructurewhere there is year to year,
a stability where thelibraries can rely
on those big consortialsubscriptions that
are deeply discountedat that scale and also,
(12:50):
as Ashley mentioned, thenetwork of skilled consultants
that are often ata state library
that are providingcritical consulting
and support to libraries.
And that way, thoselights are being
kept on with the municipalities,the funds from the municipality
and the funds from the state.
(13:10):
And so yes, I would-- maybe Itook that analogy too literally.
But I thought it was agood opportunity to--
CHARLIE BENNETT (13:15):
I love it when someone takes a metaphor
and breaks it.
That's the best.
So I really appreciateyou going after that.
ASHLEY SANDS (13:22):
And I completely agree
with what Dennis is saying.
Each of the grant programs hasdifferent rules behind them.
And they're in our legislation.
So these are congressionallywritten legislation
that we follow for each of thesedifferent kinds of programs.
It's all written out.
You can go check it out.
And it reminds me that wehave these multiple different
(13:45):
programs.
So the museum side of the househas different requirements
for cost share, forexample, for ensuring
that your institution isalso providing funding
and proves that you're reallybought in to continuing
with this work.
We also-- I don't wantto forget to mention
our really important programsfor Native populations.
(14:06):
So we also have programs forNative American, Native Alaskan,
and Native Hawaiian people.
And what's really great aboutthese programs is they actually
literally--
for some of those funds, you canuse that to keep the lights on.
In a lot of tribalareas, the local library
(14:28):
may only be able to beopen 10 hours a week.
And perhaps the funding thatthey receive through IMLS
allows them to doublethat by paying a staff
member, that sort of thing.
So again, there'sthe flexibility
to really meet each differentkind of library and community
where they're at.
And that's part ofwhat Dennis and I do,
is we make sure that allthese rules are followed.
(14:49):
That's part of what theprogram officer does,
explaining all the rulesthat need to be followed,
ensuring that they are.
We're doing that monitoring andcompliance throughout the year.
And so that's partof what our role is.
FRED RASCOE (15:01):
This is Lost in the Stacks.
And we'll be back withmore from Dennis Nangle
and Ashley Sands of theIMLS after a music set.
CHARLIE BENNETT (15:09):
File this set under Z 683.35.
FRED RASCOE (15:19):
"Federal Funding" by Cake.
That's a song about whereyour tax dollars should go
and where they actually end up.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
CHARLIE BENNETT (15:33):
This is Lost in the Stacks,
and we're speaking with DennisNangle and Ashley Sands,
employees of the Institute forMuseum and Library Services,
or IMLS.
I never say the full name.
I just always say IMLS.
In the first segment, wetalked a lot about the impact
that the IMLS has on libraryservices across the country.
On March 14 ofthis year, the IMLS
(15:57):
became another ofmany federal agencies
to be disrupted by an executiveorder that effectively
shut down all grant operations.
The executive order was calledContinuing the Reduction
of the Federal Bureaucracy.
We started this segmentby asking our guests
how they felt when thatexecutive order was announced.
DENNIS NANGLE (16:19):
I mean, at a very top level,
the last thing Iexpected was to see
our name of our agencyexplicitly laid out
in one of these.
Keeping it completelynonpartisan,
it was just-- weare a micro agency,
and that is our officialcategorical term in the scope
(16:40):
of federal government.
I just was like,OK, there were a lot
of very unprecedented thingshappening all around us.
But we are so smallthat it was just--
yeah, it was really--
it was like, hang on.
CHARLIE BENNETT (16:56):
Is that what the "micro" refers,
just to the size of the agency,the budget and the personnel?
DENNIS NANGLE (17:02):
I want to say-- yeah, it's interesting.
Maybe Ashley knows more ifit's budget and personnel.
I kind of just assumed itwas a personnel determinant.
But--
FRED RASCOE (17:12):
It's 0.0046% of the budget, right?
DENNIS NANGLE (17:15):
That's right.
Yeah.
And the library side is 0.003%.
So our museum folks have0.0016% of all of that.
CHARLIE BENNETT: So nothing, zero. (17:27):
undefined
That's really what we'retalking about statistically.
DENNIS NANGLE (17:31):
Yeah.
ASHLEY SANDS (17:31):
I was trying to fall asleep the other night,
and I was listening to NPR.
It kind of helpedme fall asleep.
And then I hear the Instituteof Museum and Library Services.
And my visceralreaction happened again,
something in my chest.
And I tightened up.
And I was like, well, I'm notgoing to bed yet, apparently.
But hearing anotherstory about what's
(17:53):
happening-- thisone in particular
was talking abouthow it's actually
the more rural partsof America that
are going to be more deeplyimpacted and quickly based
on these cuts.
So I would say Ihave and continue
to have visceral, physical,emotional reactions to this.
I take so much pridein the hard work
(18:13):
that I have given to thisagency and so much pride
in being able to enablemy grantees to succeed.
And so any timeI've heard someone
wanting to get in theway of what I believe
is really important work, ithurts me to be on admin leave
(18:38):
right now and not helping,not continuing to push
these kinds of efforts forward.
FRED RASCOE (18:44):
I hate to take you back to that moment of--
obviously, it's atraumatic moment when
that executive order came out.
And it was such abanal executive order
compared to a lotof the other ones.
There wasn't a lotof rhetoric in it.
It's just these are closing.
(19:04):
And IMLS was listed in one ofthose, and so such a banal thing
just having thistraumatic impact.
But if you can talk about it, Iam interested in-- a week later,
folks from DOGE, Departmentof Government Efficiency, come
actually to the IMLS offices.
(19:25):
Were you still in theoffice when that happened?
ASHLEY SANDS (19:28):
Yeah.
FRED RASCOE (19:29):
What was it like when they walked in?
What did they do?
Did you interact with them?
ASHLEY SANDS (19:36):
So I will just present
what I saw happen that day.
We had heard thatthey were coming in.
So previously, we were allowedto telework different days
and come into theoffice less frequently.
Once we heard that DOGE wascoming, everyone came in.
(19:57):
We all wanted to be there.
We all wanted to showhow passionate we
are about this work.
And, in fact, manyof us wore black
because we felt likewe were in mourning.
The group-- it was abouta handful of people--
came in.
Keith Sonderling was sworn in.
He came in that day, wassworn in right inside
(20:17):
the office with ahandful of folks.
They went and sat in oneof our conference rooms
with our leadership teammembers for a few hours.
And then-- what was it--right around lunchtime,
I think, Dennis, Ithink most of them left.
A couple of them paired off.
(20:38):
The person representingfinance talked to our CFO.
The person representing commstalked to our comms team.
But otherwise they departed.
And I think all of us who arejust kind of in our office,
we're a little bit confused.
How did you feel, Dennis?
DENNIS NANGLE (20:56):
Yeah.
Very similarly.
I think about-- maybe not touse trite, crucial conversations
terms, but it was verymuch that whole dichotomy
of facts versus stories.
And even though wewere right there,
(21:16):
we were very excludedfrom anything specific.
So there was just a lotof observations and trying
to interpret what this sortof non-verbal thing or body
language thing, because ourconference rooms are basically
just glass doors.
And so there was a littlebit of craning and casual,
(21:37):
just trying to pickup on anything.
But--
ASHLEY SANDS (21:41):
Like, I heard someone laugh.
What do you think that means?
Or--
DENNIS NANGLE (21:44):
Are they happy?
ASHLEY SANDS (21:44):
Someone walked that way.
DENNIS NANGLE (21:46):
Yeah.
And our little team, too,long before all of this,
we had this--
we have team meetingswhere we either
do some little professionaldevelopment together
or something that'snot necessarily
operational about quarterly.
Sometimes, we'll read abook and talk about it.
(22:06):
Or in this case, most recently,we watched this 30-minute
podcast about resilience anddealing with uncertainty.
And so that was in allof our brains as a team.
And they were like, when you'regrappling with uncertainty
and not knowing what todo is to find your flow,
where your actions and yourthoughts and your attention
(22:30):
are doing the same thing.
And so I'm saying all ofthis because my supervisor,
her flow happens to be working.
And so she wasjust like, well, we
have meetings scheduled today.
What are we doingsitting around here?
And so we gathered, and wetried to stick to our agenda
(22:52):
and keep working as long as wewere able to work knowing full
well that we might getcalled in and there
might be this huge bombshellthat's dropped on us.
But we just kept meeting.
And then we invitedmore of our colleagues
to join us in our meeting.
And it eventually justbecame us gathering
into this smaller conferenceroom, just sort of waiting.
(23:16):
That was the generalinitial reaction
from me and my little section.
ASHLEY SANDS (23:22):
And I'd say, with all this uncertainty
that's been for months now, I'mso proud of my colleagues who
literally kept workingon details, detailed work
until the bitter end.
We had even heard, oh, somethingmight happen this next day.
And my colleagueswere in eGMS, starting
(23:42):
to try to set up reviewpanels, always optimistic
that we were going to continueto grant funds, make grants
this year.
Maybe we are.
I don't know.
I always wonder ifI'm being optimistic,
if I'm being extremelynaive or somewhere
in between or all of the above.
(24:03):
But I remain hopeful that we cancontinue this work to whatever
extent we can.
CHARLIE BENNETT (24:11):
And when you say the bitter end,
do you mean March 31when the bulk of you
were put onadministrative leave?
ASHLEY SANDS (24:19):
Yeah.
That's exactly the daythat I was thinking of.
And Dennis, that was theday that they just took out
our email access andour database access.
And there weresome people texting
like, I can't log in anymore.
Anybody else?
(24:40):
So it was one ofthose things you
didn't know when it was coming.
But there it was.
That was anotherkind of gut punch
when I tried to refreshmy email and it was off.
CHARLIE BENNETT (24:57):
The sense I've gotten from anecdote
and some reporting aboutall of these closures
or partial closuresor closure theatrics
is that it just seemed casual.
It seemed like therewas not a plan behind it
so much as things--
like switches getting flipped.
(25:18):
I mean, is that how it felt?
Was there anything thatfelt official or formal?
Or was there anything that feltvery amateurish or whatever?
ASHLEY SANDS (25:35):
It felt random to me.
Sure, I'm sure thereare inefficiencies
all over government.
Sure, if you want tosend a team into IMLS
and talk to all the staffmembers and really look into it
and spend a few months oryears investigating it,
I'm sure you could identifysome inefficiencies.
(25:57):
But popping in, talking to thefive leadership team members
and then making huge, crucialdecisions within hours or days,
that felt like it was notplanned, not efficient,
and ultimately not the way tobenefit the American public.
FRED RASCOE (26:19):
This is Lost in the Stacks,
and we'll be back with moreabout how IMLS employees are
coping with efforts toshut down the agency
on the left side of the hour.
ROLAND ALLEN (26:37):
Hi.
The Funkadelic song is"Can You Get to That?"
If you could play "CanYou Get To That?" for me,
that would be great.
I think it's on Maggot Brain.
Hi, this is Roland Allen.
I'm the author of The Notebook--
A History of Thinking on Paper.
And you are listening to Lost inthe Stacks, the research library
(26:58):
rock and roll radioshow on WREK Atlanta.
[FUNKADELIC, "CANYOU GET TO THAT?"]
I once had a life
Or rather, life had me
CHARLIE BENNETT (27:08):
Today's show is all about the IMLS.
Normally, at thispoint in the show,
we pause to shareanother perspective
on the issue we're discussingor play an additional tidbit
from the interview thatadds context or perspective.
However, today, the contextand perspective of our guests
is the priority.
So we'll have ashort music break,
and we'll get rightback to hearing more
(27:29):
from Dennis and Ashley.
File this music setunder BF 463.U5 J37.
FRED RASCOE (27:51):
That was "I Just Don't Know" by Banchee,
and before that, "I Don'tKnow" by Ruth Brown,
songs about being in theanxious grip of uncertainty.
This is Lost in theStacks, and our show today
is all about the uncertainfuture of the IMLS,
with IMLS employees DennisNangle and Ashley Sands.
(28:12):
Our interview wasrecorded in late May.
In this last segment,we wanted to talk
about how Dennis andAshley were dealing
with the near termand long-term future.
So earlier in May, there was acourt ruling called Rhode Island
versus Trump--
It wasn't just Rhode Island.
It was a collection of states--
(28:33):
that really putall this on pause.
At least that'show it's reported
is that it's put on pause.
Can you all-- Ashleyand Dennis, you're
no longer on administrativeleave as of today
when we're recordingthis May 27, right?
ASHLEY SANDS (28:52):
Right.
So there's a staggered returnin the administrative leave.
And some of it has to do withwhether you're in the bargaining
unit, bargainingunit employees, i.e.,
the union members arestaggered to return
to work for another week.
So that's just some littlelogistics things there.
(29:12):
But you're right.
It was that injunction thatcame in, I believe, on May 6
in the Rhode Islandversus Trump case.
That was another shift of, oh,I guess we're doing this now.
I think a lot of us havebeen saying roller coaster
about these last few months.
(29:33):
A lot of these things wefind out at the same time
or later than you do.
I'll just scrollthrough LinkedIn,
and I'll be like, oh, thatgrantee lost their grant.
It was taken away.
And then a text messagea few days ago, oh,
that grantee'sgrant was reinstated
because theirs was from one ofthe states that was actually
(29:55):
in this case.
So I'm finding out thesame as everybody else,
but I just so appreciate--
I think, us asindividuals, I really
hope everyone agreesthat we want-- we're
part of the community too.
And so we want to stayup to date with how
this is impacting everyone.
DENNIS NANGLE (30:15):
Yeah.
And yeah, I wouldsay too, I think
Ashley can agreethat we are learning
all about legal resources.
ASHLEY SANDS (30:26):
Yes.
DENNIS NANGLE (30:26):
CourtListener is a new and exciting resource
that we're all tryingto make sense of.
What is an injunction?
What does that even mean?
What's the difference betweena preliminary injunction
and a temporaryrestraining order?
What is a stay?
How does that work?
How do you have astay and a request
for an appeal at the same time?
(30:48):
Again, just reiterating howmuch outside looking in we are.
That is absolutely the case,where we are literally just
trying to decipher whatis happening as it's
happening with everyone else.
Real court cases don'thappen like movies.
There is not a gavelthat bangs down,
and we're all just rushing backto whatever things were before.
(31:13):
It's fascinating to see howmany stopgaps there are,
how many opportunities thereis to appeal and respond.
And so that's been areally illuminating part
of all of this.
CHARLIE BENNETT (31:24):
So one of the things that we wanted to ask
was, what's next?
What are your plans?
How does the future look?
But what I'mhearing right now is
that there's still so muchuncertainty and ambiguity
that you're one day ata time at this moment.
ASHLEY SANDS (31:43):
Yeah, absolutely.
We don't know if there'sgoing to be the Big, Beautiful
Bill, the implications of thatfor the rest of the fiscal year
that ends September 30.
We don't know theimplications of that.
And then the President'sbill for next year, starting
(32:05):
October 1, we're supposed to bezeroed out, is my understanding.
So I don't know.
Are we going to goback to work next week
and then work through September30, and then be out of a job
then?
Are we going to go back to worknext week and something is going
to happen in a courtcase one way or another
(32:25):
and be out of a job then?
It's definitely ambiguous.
I know I-- honestly, coming toIMLS, this was my dream job.
I couldn't believe it whenI got this gig, again,
over eight years ago now.
And this was my job.
(32:48):
I got my job, and I was going--
I got a safe government jobwhere I was going to work hard.
And I was just going to dothat for the rest of my career.
And I felt so happy.
And even in the firstTrump administration,
again, the president's budgetwas going to zero out in IMLS.
And so we all went through that.
(33:08):
But what happened was Congressdecided how important the IMLS
funds were and kept us going.
So even with those threatsin that time period,
it's nothing like this,nothing like is happening now.
It feels there's kind ofa chaos is my perception.
DENNIS NANGLE (33:30):
Yeah.
I would echo the "oneday at a time" feeling.
And similar to Ashley, again,I didn't think about the fact
that our tenures are ofsuch similar length too.
And so it really was--
I was thinking tomyself, OK, it's
nice to have that foreverjob that you really
(33:52):
want to settle into.
And with my programin particular,
it's so special forso many reasons.
But a big element isit's not discretionary,
which means I have the samegrantees practically every year,
as long as that person remainsemployed at the state library.
And so I've known statelibrarians and state library
(34:16):
staff, especially because I wasat the Maryland State Library
prior to IMLS for four years.
So I even have knownpeople for over a decade.
And that has been a hugeshock to my system is,
oh, these people won't bein my life all of a sudden.
(34:36):
I'm even reading articlesfrom state librarians saying
that they miss the relationshipsand how helpful we were to them
just in doing their job.
And to me, that's justone of the biggest things
to hang my hat on.
(34:57):
Depending howeverlong I get to continue
doing this is, yeah, thisis what we've been trying
to challenge, thispresumption or assumption
of out-of-touch paperpusher feds, but more of I
want to help you realizeyour goals with these funds.
(35:17):
And so you do.
You just become veryclose to these people.
And I've gotten so manynotes, cards mailed to me,
just incredibleoutpouring of support.
ASHLEY SANDS (35:29):
Yeah.
But I mean, the deferredresignation program
is being offered again.
And I'm sure folks are goingto take it because, again, this
is emotionally very difficultfor us all, the uncertainty.
Many people have familiesand mortgages or rent.
So even when youtake out the idealism
(35:51):
that we're fighting so hard for,there's on-the-ground realities.
But I also wantto reiterate, I've
received emails, outpouring ofsupport from folks in the field.
And that has meantso much because I
feel like I've poured myheart and soul into my work.
And having folks say they sawthat, really appreciate that.
(36:15):
And that at IMLS, we're notjust bureaucrats pushing papers,
but we're really tryingto support you and enable
you to succeed.
It's a very librarian mentality.
We're here to help you succeed.
And that's reallyhow we feel about it.
FRED RASCOE (36:39):
Dennis and Ashley, I want to thank you both so much
for joining this interview.
It has really been a pleasure.
Thank you.
ASHLEY SANDS (36:47):
Thank you so much for reaching out,
for letting us get to sharehow these last few months have
been feeling for us.
We appreciate it.
DENNIS NANGLE: Yeah, I echo that. (36:59):
undefined
It's been nice.
CHARLIE BENNETT (37:03):
You've been listening to our interview
with Dennis Nangle and AshleySands of the Institute of Museum
and Library Services,recorded May 27, 2025.
FRED RASCOE (37:14):
File this set under QH75.G7178.
SPEAKER (37:19):
People should not be afraid of their governments.
Governments should beafraid of their people.
CHARLIE BENNETT (37:34):
That was "The Way" by The Durty Wurks.
Those are spelledwith U's, not I's.
Song about beingsubject to a system,
but striving for a better way.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
FRED RASCOE (37:54):
This is Lost in the Stacks.
And as we mentioned, werecorded our interview
with Dennis and Ashley back onMay 27, which, as it turns out,
was just a few daysbefore the White House
released the technicalsupplement to its previously
announced budget bill.
The supplement explicitlydetailed the goal of complete
elimination of IMLS, page1,099, If you're interested
(38:16):
in the details.
CHARLIE BENNETT (38:17):
I am not.
FRED RASCOE (38:18):
This bill means that IMLS is not just
being reduced to a shellby an executive order.
If it's signed into law aspart of the Big Beautiful Bill,
this would be afor-real, Congressionally
approved dismantling.
CHARLIE BENNETT (38:31):
A few days ago, Ashley
was kind enough toreach back out to us
to give an update onhow she was continuing
to deal with thesituation and what
she might want to add towhat she said in the recorded
interview.
She wrote to us--
FRED RASCOE (38:44):
"I keep thinking about exactly what I might want
to add, but I thinkreally it's in some ways
more of the same in that theroller coaster continues.
Since we last spoke,many of our colleagues
at National Endowmentfor the Humanities
were officially let go.
And there's something weirdhappening at the National
Science Foundation offices Iread about just this morning."
(39:04):
And with that, Ashley isreferring to the HUD takeover
of the NSF building.
"And that's just atthe federal level.
I know that folksin state libraries
and many otherlocal institutions
have also losttheir jobs because
of the repercussions of thesefederal-level decisions.
I'm just so sorryI couldn't do more.
I believe it was RussellVought, former director
of the Office ofManagement and Budget
(39:26):
under the Trumpadministration, who
said he wanted to put careercivil servants in trauma.
Mission accomplished."
End quote.
CHARLIE BENNETT (39:39):
Let's just roll the credits on that one.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Lost In the Stacks is acollaboration between WREK
Atlanta and theGeorgia Tech Library,
written and produced by AlexMcGee, Charlie Bennett--
that's me--
Fred Rascoe, and Marlee Givens.
FRED RASCOE (39:59):
Legal counsel and encouraging words--
and we've neededthem-- were provided
by the Burrus IntellectualProperty Law Group
in Atlanta, Georgia.
CHARLIE BENNETT (40:07):
Special thanks to Dennis and Ashley
for being on theshow, to everyone
at the IMLS for allyou've done and anything
you might get to do.
And thanks, as always, toeach and every one of you
for listening.
FRED RASCOE (40:19):
Our web page is library.gatech.e
du/lostinthestacks, where you'llfind our most recent episode,
a link to our podcastfeed, and a web form
if you want to getin touch with us.
CHARLIE BENNETT (40:29):
Next week it's the 4th of July,
so we will not be in the studio.
I'll try and find a patrioticrerun to drop in there.
FRED RASCOE (40:36):
Hmm.
Interesting.
Time for our last song today.
We're learning every day thatour government agencies, which
provide importantservices to the people,
are not imperishable or eternal.
But it's alsoimportant to remember
that even though theseagencies may be dismantled,
the forces that aredismantling them
(40:57):
are themselves notimperishable or eternal,
and so they don't need tobe accepted as inevitable.
So let's close with a song aboutresilience against systems.
This is "Wow and Flutter" byStereolab right here on Lost
in the Stacks.
Have a great weekend, everybody.
[UPBEAT MUSIC]
(00:02):
ASHLEY SANDS (00:04):
Every dollar that goes
into a library producesx number of dollars
into that library's community.
And so when you talkabout efficiency,
putting money into libraries isextremely efficient in growing
communities.
And so of all the thingsto take away funding from,
libraries and museums is oneof the poorest choices when
(00:29):
it comes to ensuringthat a local economy
and a local communityare able to grow.
[THEME MUSIC]
CHARLIE BENNETT (01:00):
You are listening to WREK Atlanta.
And this is Lost in theStacks, the research library
rock and roll radio show.
I'm Charlie Bennettin the studio
with, well, not quite askeleton crew, but Fred Rascoe
and Cody Turner.
Each week on Lost in theStacks, we pick a theme
and then use it to create amix of music and library talk.
Whichever you're herefor, we hope you dig it.
FRED RASCOE (01:22):
Our show today is called "The IMLS:
Grappling with Uncertaintyin the Time of DOGE."
CHARLIE BENNETT: That doesn't even (01:28):
undefined
sound like it meansanything, dude.
FRED RASCOE (01:31):
Our listeners probably know about DOGE.
CHARLIE BENNETT (01:33):
More than they'd like, I bet.
FRED RASCOE (01:35):
But what about IMLS?
That might be a newone to some folks.
CHARLIE BENNETT (01:39):
For our non-librarian listeners,
that's the Institute ofMuseum and Library Services.
It's one of the manyfederal agencies
that was threatened with closureby an executive order issued
by the White House 15 years ago.
FRED RASCOE (01:54):
In spite of the fact that it's an agency--
it seems like it, yeah.
In spite of the factthat it's an agency
mandated to exist byCongressional act.
CHARLIE BENNETT (02:03):
And I kind of stomped over that.
And we should pointthat out one more time.
It's a congressionallymandated federal agency.
FRED RASCOE (02:10):
For now.
CHARLIE BENNETT: It's a small agency. (02:11):
undefined
It's less than five thousandthsof 1% of the federal budget.
It has fewer than 100 employees.
But it's doing important workfor libraries and museums
across the country.
FRED RASCOE (02:23):
So today, we're talking
to a couple of IMLSemployees about what
the IMLS is, what happenedwhen DOGE showed up,
and what is potentially lostif IMLS goes away forever.
CHARLIE BENNETT (02:37):
I made a joke about time earlier.
It is important to note thatthis interview, recorded, took
place at the end of May.
And as we all know,in this environment,
situations change pretty fast.
We'll try to give a fewupdates at the end of the show.
FRED RASCOE (02:54):
And our songs today are about your tax dollars
and striving for betterresults in the system
and lots of uncertainty.
For a long time, librarians haverelied on agencies like the IMLS
to provide access toimportant community resources
when their own funds fell short.
But in recentyears, we've started
to see thesesupports dismantled,
(03:15):
leaving communities wonderinghow much worse things could get.
CHARLIE BENNETT (03:19):
Oh, man.
FRED RASCOE (03:20):
A dangerous question.
So let's start with "Did YouThink Things Could Ever Get This
Bad" by Sissy Space Echo and TheInvisible Collaborators right
here on Lost in the Stacks.
CHARLIE BENNETT (03:30):
Fred, we've talked about the optimism
aspect of the show.
FRED RASCOE (03:33):
Yeah, sorry.
CHARLIE BENNETT (03:43):
That was "Did You Think Things Could Ever Get
This Bad" by Sissy Space Echoand The Invisible Collaborators.
This is Lost in the Stacks.
And today, we're playingan interview recorded
in late May 2025 with twoemployees of the federal agency
near and dear to the heart ofmany librarians, the Institute
(04:04):
of Museum and LibraryServices, the IMLS.
Let's meet our guests andfind out what they do.
DENNIS NANGLE (04:11):
My name is Dennis Nangle.
My title is seniorprogram officer.
And I work under theGrants to States program
within the Officeof Library Services.
And I'm still employed by IMLS.
I am scheduled to returnto the office on June 2.
(04:33):
Up until now, I've beenon administrative leave.
ASHLEY SANDS (04:36):
And I am Ashley Sands.
I am also a senior libraryprogram officer at IMLS.
Dennis and I workin adjacent offices.
He's more on the Grantsto States side of things,
and I'm more on thediscretionary side of things.
We've been eight and a half plusyears getting to work at IMLS.
Currently, I'm also onadministrative leave
(04:58):
but designated to return tooffice next Monday on June 2.
CHARLIE BENNETT (05:04):
Has administrative leave given you
COVID flashbacks at all?
ASHLEY SANDS (05:09):
[LAUGHS]
DENNIS NANGLE (05:10):
Yeah.
It's interesting.
I will say thisentire space that I
am in is a product of COVID.
It's my basement officethat was, prior to COVID,
not finished at all.
And it is interesting, thissort of adapting and reacting
to things that are--
(05:31):
not unraveling, butrevealing itself
and unfolding by the minute.
So yes, I definitely--
I see some parallels for sure.
FRED RASCOE (05:43):
A big situation out of your control.
DENNIS NANGLE (05:46):
Right.
Right.
ASHLEY SANDS (05:48):
Yes.
The loss of control isprobably the hardest part.
I think a lot of us are havinganxiety about the uncertainty.
And as you have seen in thenews, things have changed.
Sometimes by the day,something new has come out.
I can't even keep up with whereexactly we are all the time.
FRED RASCOE (06:10):
So there is a daily stream
of news about multiplegovernment agencies,
Institute of Museum andLibrary Services, IMLS,
being one of those.
And so we will get into howearthshaking those changes are.
But first, I wantto-- for listeners
(06:32):
who may not be familiar--some of our listeners
are not in the library world.
And so to tell them whatthe IMLS is, how would you
explain what that is?
And if it's somethingthat's zeroed out,
what's the consequence of that?
DENNIS NANGLE (06:50):
Yeah, I think about our masthead statement
that we have gotten used toreciting for these many years.
But we are the primary source offederal funding for the nation's
libraries and museums.
And it is--
I would say, it's nice tohave Ashley here with me,
(07:12):
because I feel like, especiallyin the library side of things,
the work that we do isrepresented in our two offices,
whereas my work is thisinfrastructural support,
and Ashley's is supportingthe further development
and evolution and progress ofthe field and of the profession.
ASHLEY SANDS (07:33):
Just like Dennis was saying,
IMLS's reach hasblock grants that
are based on population thatgo to each state library.
And what's really great isthat it's a state library
plus all the territories.
So there's actually56 of those grants
that are awarded each year.
And just as hesaid, those states
(07:54):
get to use that forwhatever they need.
Those funds are meetingyou where you are.
So whether you're lesstechnologically savvy--
maybe you just need more books.
Maybe you need moreonline subscriptions.
Or maybe you're doing somemore transformative work
in the Memory Laband teaching people
(08:15):
how to scan theirold photographs
and old digital media,that kind of thing.
It's meeting thoselibraries where they are.
They make their workplans, and they say what
they need to use the funds for.
The discretionary program,just like Dennis was saying,
is for these moreinnovative ideas
or for taking great ideasthat people have started
to pilot at their ownlocations and scaling them
(08:38):
up, scaling them out, gettingthese great ideas to new places.
So it's both that infrastructureand that scaling out
and getting of new ideas,which is really exciting
and give some power tothese brilliant librarians
all over the country who havethese great ideas about how
to improve services.
FRED RASCOE (08:58):
So one thing that I've seen in the news,
when we're talking about thingsthat are lost when these grant
funds can no longerbe disbursed,
I see things in the news likeSouth Dakota statewide cannot do
interlibrary loan anymore.
Mississippi public librarystatewide cannot lend out ebooks
(09:23):
anymore.
They had to cancelthat subscription.
Something that Ihaven't seen a lot of
are things like youmentioned, like the Memory
Lab and other innovative ideas.
What are some examples of those?
Or can you talk about maybewhat the memory lab is
or any other example thatcomes to mind that goes away
if the IMLS does not fund it?
ASHLEY SANDS (09:44):
Yeah.
So it really depends on whereyou are, which state you're in.
I believe it wasMaine, what I heard,
has already had to lay offfolks at the state library.
So those are positionsthat are lost,
those are positions whowere doing services.
But things like the Memory Labare likely the first to go.
So the Memory Lab isthis great program
(10:05):
that was startedby someone working
at the Library of Congressand has been expanded out
where different libraries aregiven the old infrastructure
to be able to-- oldVHS or other kinds
of readers of digital media.
And then you can havelabs where you teach folks
(10:27):
how to use thoseold readers to get
digital copies of your photos,slides, that kind of a thing.
So that's something that couldbe one of the first things
to go, staffing that kindof a thing when you need
to be able to really instead payattention to those circulating
(10:47):
books or circulatingdigital resources
and trying to keep some of thatmore immediate pieces coming
and going.
CHARLIE BENNETT: So what I'm hearing (10:56):
undefined
is that you keep thelights on and also
help people experimentwith new things to do.
DENNIS NANGLE (11:04):
Yeah.
And "keep the lightson" is interesting,
especially on the Grantsto States side of things,
because it's me and two othersthat oversee Grants to States
for all 56 statesand territories.
So we all have aportfolio of states.
I have 20.
And just in this current climateand perception of what a federal
(11:25):
worker does, that'sjust something--
and I can speakfor Ashley also--
that culturally at IMLSis of critical importance
of just being,pursuing excellence
in making sure that we aresupporting our recipients,
but also trainingthem well, helping
them understandwhat can and can't
(11:47):
be used with federal funds.
And with Grants to States,there is a lot of stipulations
as far as theseare federal funds.
And while we want to provideyou with infrastructure,
it is not intended tobe operating costs.
So it's important we--
when I go on sitevisits and when
(12:08):
we're talking torecipients, it's
just, if I see something ina report that says, oh, you
can't just be throwingthis toward utilities
or if you were thinkingabout doing that,
that's not somethingthat federal funds do.
And I bring that upjust as an example of we
just really want toemphasize that we
know what federal fundsare supposed to be for.
(12:28):
We know that there is supposedto be a, I would almost say,
a staffing infrastructurewhere there is year to year,
a stability where thelibraries can rely
on those big consortialsubscriptions that
are deeply discountedat that scale and also,
(12:50):
as Ashley mentioned, thenetwork of skilled consultants
that are often ata state library
that are providingcritical consulting
and support to libraries.
And that way, thoselights are being
kept on with the municipalities,the funds from the municipality
and the funds from the state.
(13:10):
And so yes, I would-- maybe Itook that analogy too literally.
But I thought it was agood opportunity to--
CHARLIE BENNETT (13:15):
I love it when someone takes a metaphor
and breaks it.
That's the best.
So I really appreciateyou going after that.
ASHLEY SANDS (13:22):
And I completely agree
with what Dennis is saying.
Each of the grant programs hasdifferent rules behind them.
And they're in our legislation.
So these are congressionallywritten legislation
that we follow for each of thesedifferent kinds of programs.
It's all written out.
You can go check it out.
And it reminds me that wehave these multiple different
(13:45):
programs.
So the museum side of the househas different requirements
for cost share, forexample, for ensuring
that your institution isalso providing funding
and proves that you're reallybought in to continuing
with this work.
We also-- I don't wantto forget to mention
our really important programsfor Native populations.
(14:06):
So we also have programs forNative American, Native Alaskan,
and Native Hawaiian people.
And what's really great aboutthese programs is they actually
literally--
for some of those funds, you canuse that to keep the lights on.
In a lot of tribalareas, the local library
(14:28):
may only be able to beopen 10 hours a week.
And perhaps the funding thatthey receive through IMLS
allows them to doublethat by paying a staff
member, that sort of thing.
So again, there'sthe flexibility
to really meet each differentkind of library and community
where they're at.
And that's part ofwhat Dennis and I do,
is we make sure that allthese rules are followed.
(14:49):
That's part of what theprogram officer does,
explaining all the rulesthat need to be followed,
ensuring that they are.
We're doing that monitoring andcompliance throughout the year.
And so that's partof what our role is.
FRED RASCOE (15:01):
This is Lost in the Stacks.
And we'll be back withmore from Dennis Nangle
and Ashley Sands of theIMLS after a music set.
CHARLIE BENNETT (15:09):
File this set under Z 683.35.
FRED RASCOE (15:19):
"Federal Funding" by Cake.
That's a song about whereyour tax dollars should go
and where they actually end up.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
CHARLIE BENNETT (15:33):
This is Lost in the Stacks,
and we're speaking with DennisNangle and Ashley Sands,
employees of the Institute forMuseum and Library Services,
or IMLS.
I never say the full name.
I just always say IMLS.
In the first segment, wetalked a lot about the impact
that the IMLS has on libraryservices across the country.
On March 14 ofthis year, the IMLS
(15:57):
became another ofmany federal agencies
to be disrupted by an executiveorder that effectively
shut down all grant operations.
The executive order was calledContinuing the Reduction
of the Federal Bureaucracy.
We started this segmentby asking our guests
how they felt when thatexecutive order was announced.
DENNIS NANGLE (16:19):
I mean, at a very top level,
the last thing Iexpected was to see
our name of our agencyexplicitly laid out
in one of these.
Keeping it completelynonpartisan,
it was just-- weare a micro agency,
and that is our officialcategorical term in the scope
(16:40):
of federal government.
I just was like,OK, there were a lot
of very unprecedented thingshappening all around us.
But we are so smallthat it was just--
yeah, it was really--
it was like, hang on.
CHARLIE BENNETT (16:56):
Is that what the "micro" refers,
just to the size of the agency,the budget and the personnel?
DENNIS NANGLE (17:02):
I want to say-- yeah, it's interesting.
Maybe Ashley knows more ifit's budget and personnel.
I kind of just assumed itwas a personnel determinant.
But--
FRED RASCOE (17:12):
It's 0.0046% of the budget, right?
DENNIS NANGLE (17:15):
That's right.
Yeah.
And the library side is 0.003%.
So our museum folks have0.0016% of all of that.
CHARLIE BENNETT: So nothing, zero. (17:27):
undefined
That's really what we'retalking about statistically.
DENNIS NANGLE (17:31):
Yeah.
ASHLEY SANDS (17:31):
I was trying to fall asleep the other night,
and I was listening to NPR.
It kind of helpedme fall asleep.
And then I hear the Instituteof Museum and Library Services.
And my visceralreaction happened again,
something in my chest.
And I tightened up.
And I was like, well, I'm notgoing to bed yet, apparently.
But hearing anotherstory about what's
(17:53):
happening-- thisone in particular
was talking abouthow it's actually
the more rural partsof America that
are going to be more deeplyimpacted and quickly based
on these cuts.
So I would say Ihave and continue
to have visceral, physical,emotional reactions to this.
I take so much pridein the hard work
(18:13):
that I have given to thisagency and so much pride
in being able to enablemy grantees to succeed.
And so any timeI've heard someone
wanting to get in theway of what I believe
is really important work, ithurts me to be on admin leave
(18:38):
right now and not helping,not continuing to push
these kinds of efforts forward.
FRED RASCOE (18:44):
I hate to take you back to that moment of--
obviously, it's atraumatic moment when
that executive order came out.
And it was such abanal executive order
compared to a lotof the other ones.
There wasn't a lotof rhetoric in it.
It's just these are closing.
(19:04):
And IMLS was listed in one ofthose, and so such a banal thing
just having thistraumatic impact.
But if you can talk about it, Iam interested in-- a week later,
folks from DOGE, Departmentof Government Efficiency, come
actually to the IMLS offices.
(19:25):
Were you still in theoffice when that happened?
ASHLEY SANDS (19:28):
Yeah.
FRED RASCOE (19:29):
What was it like when they walked in?
What did they do?
Did you interact with them?
ASHLEY SANDS (19:36):
So I will just present
what I saw happen that day.
We had heard thatthey were coming in.
So previously, we were allowedto telework different days
and come into theoffice less frequently.
Once we heard that DOGE wascoming, everyone came in.
(19:57):
We all wanted to be there.
We all wanted to showhow passionate we
are about this work.
And, in fact, manyof us wore black
because we felt likewe were in mourning.
The group-- it was abouta handful of people--
came in.
Keith Sonderling was sworn in.
He came in that day, wassworn in right inside
(20:17):
the office with ahandful of folks.
They went and sat in oneof our conference rooms
with our leadership teammembers for a few hours.
And then-- what was it--right around lunchtime,
I think, Dennis, Ithink most of them left.
A couple of them paired off.
(20:38):
The person representingfinance talked to our CFO.
The person representing commstalked to our comms team.
But otherwise they departed.
And I think all of us who arejust kind of in our office,
we're a little bit confused.
How did you feel, Dennis?
DENNIS NANGLE (20:56):
Yeah.
Very similarly.
I think about-- maybe not touse trite, crucial conversations
terms, but it was verymuch that whole dichotomy
of facts versus stories.
And even though wewere right there,
(21:16):
we were very excludedfrom anything specific.
So there was just a lotof observations and trying
to interpret what this sortof non-verbal thing or body
language thing, because ourconference rooms are basically
just glass doors.
And so there was a littlebit of craning and casual,
(21:37):
just trying to pickup on anything.
But--
ASHLEY SANDS (21:41):
Like, I heard someone laugh.
What do you think that means?
Or--
DENNIS NANGLE (21:44):
Are they happy?
ASHLEY SANDS (21:44):
Someone walked that way.
DENNIS NANGLE (21:46):
Yeah.
And our little team, too,long before all of this,
we had this--
we have team meetingswhere we either
do some little professionaldevelopment together
or something that'snot necessarily
operational about quarterly.
Sometimes, we'll read abook and talk about it.
(22:06):
Or in this case, most recently,we watched this 30-minute
podcast about resilience anddealing with uncertainty.
And so that was in allof our brains as a team.
And they were like, when you'regrappling with uncertainty
and not knowing what todo is to find your flow,
where your actions and yourthoughts and your attention
(22:30):
are doing the same thing.
And so I'm saying all ofthis because my supervisor,
her flow happens to be working.
And so she wasjust like, well, we
have meetings scheduled today.
What are we doingsitting around here?
And so we gathered, and wetried to stick to our agenda
(22:52):
and keep working as long as wewere able to work knowing full
well that we might getcalled in and there
might be this huge bombshellthat's dropped on us.
But we just kept meeting.
And then we invitedmore of our colleagues
to join us in our meeting.
And it eventually justbecame us gathering
into this smaller conferenceroom, just sort of waiting.
(23:16):
That was the generalinitial reaction
from me and my little section.
ASHLEY SANDS (23:22):
And I'd say, with all this uncertainty
that's been for months now, I'mso proud of my colleagues who
literally kept workingon details, detailed work
until the bitter end.
We had even heard, oh, somethingmight happen this next day.
And my colleagueswere in eGMS, starting
(23:42):
to try to set up reviewpanels, always optimistic
that we were going to continueto grant funds, make grants
this year.
Maybe we are.
I don't know.
I always wonder ifI'm being optimistic,
if I'm being extremelynaive or somewhere
in between or all of the above.
(24:03):
But I remain hopeful that we cancontinue this work to whatever
extent we can.
CHARLIE BENNETT (24:11):
And when you say the bitter end,
do you mean March 31when the bulk of you
were put onadministrative leave?
ASHLEY SANDS (24:19):
Yeah.
That's exactly the daythat I was thinking of.
And Dennis, that was theday that they just took out
our email access andour database access.
And there weresome people texting
like, I can't log in anymore.
Anybody else?
(24:40):
So it was one ofthose things you
didn't know when it was coming.
But there it was.
That was anotherkind of gut punch
when I tried to refreshmy email and it was off.
CHARLIE BENNETT (24:57):
The sense I've gotten from anecdote
and some reporting aboutall of these closures
or partial closuresor closure theatrics
is that it just seemed casual.
It seemed like therewas not a plan behind it
so much as things--
like switches getting flipped.
(25:18):
I mean, is that how it felt?
Was there anything thatfelt official or formal?
Or was there anything that feltvery amateurish or whatever?
ASHLEY SANDS (25:35):
It felt random to me.
Sure, I'm sure thereare inefficiencies
all over government.
Sure, if you want tosend a team into IMLS
and talk to all the staffmembers and really look into it
and spend a few months oryears investigating it,
I'm sure you could identifysome inefficiencies.
(25:57):
But popping in, talking to thefive leadership team members
and then making huge, crucialdecisions within hours or days,
that felt like it was notplanned, not efficient,
and ultimately not the way tobenefit the American public.
FRED RASCOE (26:19):
This is Lost in the Stacks,
and we'll be back with moreabout how IMLS employees are
coping with efforts toshut down the agency
on the left side of the hour.
ROLAND ALLEN (26:37):
Hi.
The Funkadelic song is"Can You Get to That?"
If you could play "CanYou Get To That?" for me,
that would be great.
I think it's on Maggot Brain.
Hi, this is Roland Allen.
I'm the author of The Notebook--
A History of Thinking on Paper.
And you are listening to Lost inthe Stacks, the research library
(26:58):
rock and roll radioshow on WREK Atlanta.
[FUNKADELIC, "CANYOU GET TO THAT?"]
I once had a life
Or rather, life had me
CHARLIE BENNETT (27:08):
Today's show is all about the IMLS.
Normally, at thispoint in the show,
we pause to shareanother perspective
on the issue we're discussingor play an additional tidbit
from the interview thatadds context or perspective.
However, today, the contextand perspective of our guests
is the priority.
So we'll have ashort music break,
and we'll get rightback to hearing more
(27:29):
from Dennis and Ashley.
File this music setunder BF 463.U5 J37.
FRED RASCOE (27:51):
That was "I Just Don't Know" by Banchee,
and before that, "I Don'tKnow" by Ruth Brown,
songs about being in theanxious grip of uncertainty.
This is Lost in theStacks, and our show today
is all about the uncertainfuture of the IMLS,
with IMLS employees DennisNangle and Ashley Sands.
(28:12):
Our interview wasrecorded in late May.
In this last segment,we wanted to talk
about how Dennis andAshley were dealing
with the near termand long-term future.
So earlier in May, there was acourt ruling called Rhode Island
versus Trump--
It wasn't just Rhode Island.
It was a collection of states--
(28:33):
that really putall this on pause.
At least that'show it's reported
is that it's put on pause.
Can you all-- Ashleyand Dennis, you're
no longer on administrativeleave as of today
when we're recordingthis May 27, right?
ASHLEY SANDS (28:52):
Right.
So there's a staggered returnin the administrative leave.
And some of it has to do withwhether you're in the bargaining
unit, bargainingunit employees, i.e.,
the union members arestaggered to return
to work for another week.
So that's just some littlelogistics things there.
(29:12):
But you're right.
It was that injunction thatcame in, I believe, on May 6
in the Rhode Islandversus Trump case.
That was another shift of, oh,I guess we're doing this now.
I think a lot of us havebeen saying roller coaster
about these last few months.
(29:33):
A lot of these things wefind out at the same time
or later than you do.
I'll just scrollthrough LinkedIn,
and I'll be like, oh, thatgrantee lost their grant.
It was taken away.
And then a text messagea few days ago, oh,
that grantee'sgrant was reinstated
because theirs was from one ofthe states that was actually
(29:55):
in this case.
So I'm finding out thesame as everybody else,
but I just so appreciate--
I think, us asindividuals, I really
hope everyone agreesthat we want-- we're
part of the community too.
And so we want to stayup to date with how
this is impacting everyone.
DENNIS NANGLE (30:15):
Yeah.
And yeah, I wouldsay too, I think
Ashley can agreethat we are learning
all about legal resources.
ASHLEY SANDS (30:26):
Yes.
DENNIS NANGLE (30:26):
CourtListener is a new and exciting resource
that we're all tryingto make sense of.
What is an injunction?
What does that even mean?
What's the difference betweena preliminary injunction
and a temporaryrestraining order?
What is a stay?
How does that work?
How do you have astay and a request
for an appeal at the same time?
(30:48):
Again, just reiterating howmuch outside looking in we are.
That is absolutely the case,where we are literally just
trying to decipher whatis happening as it's
happening with everyone else.
Real court cases don'thappen like movies.
There is not a gavelthat bangs down,
and we're all just rushing backto whatever things were before.
(31:13):
It's fascinating to see howmany stopgaps there are,
how many opportunities thereis to appeal and respond.
And so that's been areally illuminating part
of all of this.
CHARLIE BENNETT (31:24):
So one of the things that we wanted to ask
was, what's next?
What are your plans?
How does the future look?
But what I'mhearing right now is
that there's still so muchuncertainty and ambiguity
that you're one day ata time at this moment.
ASHLEY SANDS (31:43):
Yeah, absolutely.
We don't know if there'sgoing to be the Big, Beautiful
Bill, the implications of thatfor the rest of the fiscal year
that ends September 30.
We don't know theimplications of that.
And then the President'sbill for next year, starting
(32:05):
October 1, we're supposed to bezeroed out, is my understanding.
So I don't know.
Are we going to goback to work next week
and then work through September30, and then be out of a job
then?
Are we going to go back to worknext week and something is going
to happen in a courtcase one way or another
(32:25):
and be out of a job then?
It's definitely ambiguous.
I know I-- honestly, coming toIMLS, this was my dream job.
I couldn't believe it whenI got this gig, again,
over eight years ago now.
And this was my job.
(32:48):
I got my job, and I was going--
I got a safe government jobwhere I was going to work hard.
And I was just going to dothat for the rest of my career.
And I felt so happy.
And even in the firstTrump administration,
again, the president's budgetwas going to zero out in IMLS.
And so we all went through that.
(33:08):
But what happened was Congressdecided how important the IMLS
funds were and kept us going.
So even with those threatsin that time period,
it's nothing like this,nothing like is happening now.
It feels there's kind ofa chaos is my perception.
DENNIS NANGLE (33:30):
Yeah.
I would echo the "oneday at a time" feeling.
And similar to Ashley, again,I didn't think about the fact
that our tenures are ofsuch similar length too.
And so it really was--
I was thinking tomyself, OK, it's
nice to have that foreverjob that you really
(33:52):
want to settle into.
And with my programin particular,
it's so special forso many reasons.
But a big element isit's not discretionary,
which means I have the samegrantees practically every year,
as long as that person remainsemployed at the state library.
And so I've known statelibrarians and state library
(34:16):
staff, especially because I wasat the Maryland State Library
prior to IMLS for four years.
So I even have knownpeople for over a decade.
And that has been a hugeshock to my system is,
oh, these people won't bein my life all of a sudden.
(34:36):
I'm even reading articlesfrom state librarians saying
that they miss the relationshipsand how helpful we were to them
just in doing their job.
And to me, that's justone of the biggest things
to hang my hat on.
(34:57):
Depending howeverlong I get to continue
doing this is, yeah, thisis what we've been trying
to challenge, thispresumption or assumption
of out-of-touch paperpusher feds, but more of I
want to help you realizeyour goals with these funds.
(35:17):
And so you do.
You just become veryclose to these people.
And I've gotten so manynotes, cards mailed to me,
just incredibleoutpouring of support.
ASHLEY SANDS (35:29):
Yeah.
But I mean, the deferredresignation program
is being offered again.
And I'm sure folks are goingto take it because, again, this
is emotionally very difficultfor us all, the uncertainty.
Many people have familiesand mortgages or rent.
So even when youtake out the idealism
(35:51):
that we're fighting so hard for,there's on-the-ground realities.
But I also wantto reiterate, I've
received emails, outpouring ofsupport from folks in the field.
And that has meantso much because I
feel like I've poured myheart and soul into my work.
And having folks say they sawthat, really appreciate that.
(36:15):
And that at IMLS, we're notjust bureaucrats pushing papers,
but we're really tryingto support you and enable
you to succeed.
It's a very librarian mentality.
We're here to help you succeed.
And that's reallyhow we feel about it.
FRED RASCOE (36:39):
Dennis and Ashley, I want to thank you both so much
for joining this interview.
It has really been a pleasure.
Thank you.
ASHLEY SANDS (36:47):
Thank you so much for reaching out,
for letting us get to sharehow these last few months have
been feeling for us.
We appreciate it.
DENNIS NANGLE: Yeah, I echo that. (36:59):
undefined
It's been nice.
CHARLIE BENNETT (37:03):
You've been listening to our interview
with Dennis Nangle and AshleySands of the Institute of Museum
and Library Services,recorded May 27, 2025.
FRED RASCOE (37:14):
File this set under QH75.G7178.
SPEAKER (37:19):
People should not be afraid of their governments.
Governments should beafraid of their people.
CHARLIE BENNETT (37:34):
That was "The Way" by The Durty Wurks.
Those are spelledwith U's, not I's.
Song about beingsubject to a system,
but striving for a better way.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
FRED RASCOE (37:54):
This is Lost in the Stacks.
And as we mentioned, werecorded our interview
with Dennis and Ashley back onMay 27, which, as it turns out,
was just a few daysbefore the White House
released the technicalsupplement to its previously
announced budget bill.
The supplement explicitlydetailed the goal of complete
elimination of IMLS, page1,099, If you're interested
(38:16):
in the details.
CHARLIE BENNETT (38:17):
I am not.
FRED RASCOE (38:18):
This bill means that IMLS is not just
being reduced to a shellby an executive order.
If it's signed into law aspart of the Big Beautiful Bill,
this would be afor-real, Congressionally
approved dismantling.
CHARLIE BENNETT (38:31):
A few days ago, Ashley
was kind enough toreach back out to us
to give an update onhow she was continuing
to deal with thesituation and what
she might want to add towhat she said in the recorded
interview.
She wrote to us--
FRED RASCOE (38:44):
"I keep thinking about exactly what I might want
to add, but I thinkreally it's in some ways
more of the same in that theroller coaster continues.
Since we last spoke,many of our colleagues
at National Endowmentfor the Humanities
were officially let go.
And there's something weirdhappening at the National
Science Foundation offices Iread about just this morning."
(39:04):
And with that, Ashley isreferring to the HUD takeover
of the NSF building.
"And that's just atthe federal level.
I know that folksin state libraries
and many otherlocal institutions
have also losttheir jobs because
of the repercussions of thesefederal-level decisions.
I'm just so sorryI couldn't do more.
I believe it was RussellVought, former director
of the Office ofManagement and Budget
(39:26):
under the Trumpadministration, who
said he wanted to put careercivil servants in trauma.
Mission accomplished."
End quote.
CHARLIE BENNETT (39:39):
Let's just roll the credits on that one.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
Lost In the Stacks is acollaboration between WREK
Atlanta and theGeorgia Tech Library,
written and produced by AlexMcGee, Charlie Bennett--
that's me--
Fred Rascoe, and Marlee Givens.
FRED RASCOE (39:59):
Legal counsel and encouraging words--
and we've neededthem-- were provided
by the Burrus IntellectualProperty Law Group
in Atlanta, Georgia.
CHARLIE BENNETT (40:07):
Special thanks to Dennis and Ashley
for being on theshow, to everyone
at the IMLS for allyou've done and anything
you might get to do.
And thanks, as always, toeach and every one of you
for listening.
FRED RASCOE (40:19):
Our web page is library.gatech.e
du/lostinthestacks, where you'llfind our most recent episode,
a link to our podcastfeed, and a web form
if you want to getin touch with us.
CHARLIE BENNETT (40:29):
Next week it's the 4th of July,
so we will not be in the studio.
I'll try and find a patrioticrerun to drop in there.
FRED RASCOE (40:36):
Hmm.
Interesting.
Time for our last song today.
We're learning every day thatour government agencies, which
provide importantservices to the people,
are not imperishable or eternal.
But it's alsoimportant to remember
that even though theseagencies may be dismantled,
the forces that aredismantling them
(40:57):
are themselves notimperishable or eternal,
and so they don't need tobe accepted as inevitable.
So let's close with a song aboutresilience against systems.
This is "Wow and Flutter" byStereolab right here on Lost
in the Stacks.
Have a great weekend, everybody.
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