September 17, 2025 • 25 mins
The emotionally abusive relationship can sometimes be hard to define. How long must abusive behavior go on before actually admit that what's really happening is abuse?
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome to Love and Abuse, the show about navigating the difficult relationship, from simple disagreements to emotionally abusive behaviors. You deserve respect and kindness.
(00:10):
All the information on this show is meant for educational purposes only.
Always seek a professional for your mental health and well-being, and always pick your battles wisely. I'm your host, Paul Kolianyi.
All right, there are two things I want to say before I start today's episode, and one of them is it doesn't matter how old
(00:33):
you are if you want to tackle some difficulty in your relationship.
And I understand there's a certain point where you get to a certain age where you feel like you may not be able to do anything
about what's going on in a relationship that is challenging to you.
And I'm here to say that I've heard from people in their 70s, maybe not so many people in their 80s, but 70s and up, I've
(01:03):
heard from people that have changed their life by getting out of a situation or changing the relationship that they're in in some way by speaking up.
Mostly it's when they're that age, mostly they get out of that. They usually don't hang around.
I've often found, and maybe you have too, that older people, a lot of them are stuck in their ways.
(01:28):
That doesn't mean they're closed-minded, that just means some people feel like, oh, I'm too old to do anything about it.
And I'm here to say that don't ever think that you're too old to try to make changes that you need to make, because just imagine
if you don't try, then nothing will happen.
I'm a proponent of it's okay to try.
(01:53):
Some people say there is no try or don't try, do. I'm okay with let's try this.
Let's try it because what's not working now needs to change.
And so I preface today's episode with that, or at least that's one of the things I wanted to say is that it's not the age that stops you.
(02:16):
It's the belief that you're too old that stops you.
And I have not heard from anyone that is so old that they can't necessarily do something about it, or even speak up about something.
Because age is not the factor that stops them, it's the belief that they're too old that stops them.
(02:37):
So I'm putting that out there, and I'm not saying there aren't exceptions, I'm not saying that somebody might be at an age
where they are unable to take care of themselves or unable to come up with a different living arrangement or whatever.
There are people in that situation and I'm so sorry if you're going through that.
(02:57):
But most people, I'm going to say most people who reach an age where they think they're too old might be hanging on a belief
that doesn't work for them and may not even be true.
So I want to help you keep an open mind with that if you're reaching an age where you think, oh, I'm too old to change anything now.
(03:19):
Because again, I hear from people all the time and some of them are 60s, 70, I don't recall too many people in their 80s writing to me.
Doesn't mean that they don't want to make changes in their life or help their relationship in some way or get out of a relationship
or whatever, it just means I haven't heard from them.
(03:39):
And so the second thing I want to say is tagging from the try statement I made earlier.
I prefer you try to change what's happening instead of not trying anything.
Because what happens when you don't try is that you end up with what you have indefinitely.
(04:03):
When you don't try, you end up with what you have indefinitely, no matter what your age is.
So if you don't try something, if you don't have the conversation that you need to have or don't make the changes that you
need to make or whatever, if you don't do any of those things, then nothing ever changes.
Where people get stuck is, and I've seen this so many times and I'm so sorry for people who have gone through this, let's
(04:30):
just say you've been in a 20 plus year relationship or even a one plus year, but there are people that have written to me
that have been in 20 plus year, 30 plus year relationships that have dealt with the same thing day after day after day.
Some emotionally abusive behaviors, very difficult, challenging behaviors that create an awful environment.
(04:53):
An environment that makes you feel unhappy, worthless, insignificant to the person who is supposed to make you feel significant in a romantic relationship. We call them our significant other.
And when you feel insignificant to them, it doesn't feel like a relationship anymore. It feels like oppression. It feels like suffering.
(05:18):
So what I'm saying about trying is that if you don't try, you get the same results day after day until the end, whatever that end is, but it doesn't change.
And the people I hear from that have been in one plus, 10 plus, 20 plus, whatever year relationships, they still have hope
that the other person will change and they hope and wish and pray that that person will change someday, maybe today, maybe tomorrow.
(05:47):
And holding onto that hope keeps the relationship as it is.
And I know we use hope to lift our spirits, like maybe this will be different.
Maybe this time they'll understand what they're doing to me and stop.
And when you do that, when you hold onto hope and you don't consider what has happened day after day, you end up continuing
(06:17):
down the same road you've always been, which changes nothing.
And when people tell me, what if, or when they ask me, what if that person changes?
What if they stop doing that to me?
That usually tells me that it will never happen.
Because if you have to ask what if about someone, that tells me they already know in some way that their behavior is difficult or emotionally abusive.
(06:47):
Because if you are asking what if they change, that means they probably already know that they behave in ways that are unhealthy or toxic.
Because you don't say what if they change to someone that you've been with for a long time where neither of you have noticed that there's something wrong.
(07:09):
You don't ask what if about someone who hasn't already seen that there are challenges in the relationship.
And often it is one person trying to work on the relationship while the other person says you need to work on the relationship
or you need to work on your behaviors.
(07:29):
Often it is the victim of emotional abuse who considers what they can do better and how they can show up and how they can change, they themselves.
How can I change to accommodate this person?
How can I change so that they're happier?
That's usually the words of a victim of any type of toxic behaviors. I mean, not all victims.
(07:51):
In the long-term relationship where emotional abuse has been happening for a long time, you'll often hear that the victim
is trying to accommodate, trying to keep the peace, trying to make the changes that they believe the other person wants.
Whereas the perpetrator of emotionally abusive behavior wants the victim to change.
(08:13):
They want the other person to do what they want. They want submission. They want compliance.
And they themselves don't seem to want to change at all.
And so you have this dynamic of one person is trying to change and the other person is trying to change them.
It's the way you can tell there is an abusive dynamic going on, is that one person is always trying to change and the other
(08:39):
person is always trying to change that person.
And then what ends up happening is that when there aren't any changes, the victim can get into a space of hoping and wishing
and praying that the other person will finally see that their behavior is hurtful and toxic and maybe they'll stop.
And so they get into that what-if mentality. What if they stop today?
(09:03):
What if tomorrow they see how much damage they've done and then they stop?
Because I know that there is good in them.
And so that's what I wanted to talk about before I read this message that I received, is that it's not that you're too old,
it's that you believe you're too old.
(09:23):
And yes, there are exceptions to that. And also, why not try?
Because if you don't, nothing will happen.
And if you believe something will happen if you don't try, then what ends up happening is that you get stuck in the rut of
hoping and wishing and praying that things will be different.
(09:44):
And just as a reminder, if you've been listening for a while, you heard me talk about the trend line.
The trend line is what has been happening up to this point. Has it gotten better? Are things progressing?
Or has it gone downhill and stayed there?
Is it that straight line of little change?
(10:05):
Or is it extremely up and down, extremely positive and then negative?
That will create a lot of trauma, you know, the trauma bond that forms with the wonderful moments of love and the terrible moments of abusive behavior.
That cycle creates patterns in the brain that relate abusive behavior to love and love to abusive behavior, but you're always
(10:35):
seeking more of that love and more of that connection and more of the good behavior.
And because you've seen it, you've seen the good behavior, you felt the love, especially in the extremist points where there's
a lot of love and a lot of good, and then a lot of bad and a lot of hurt, that creates almost a craving inside for the good times.
(10:59):
And that craving, that desire for the love, the connection that you have seen many times, it can override self-protection, it can override even self-respect.
Because you can feel worthless, you can feel unloved, you can feel disconnected and you want to feel the opposite of all those
(11:22):
things, and you know you can feel that way with the person that is putting you through this abuse cycle.
And because you know you can feel that way with that person, you stay another day.
Or you don't risk rocking the boat by mentioning that you can't take it anymore, so you continue to be exposed to these behaviors
(11:46):
that have these extremes of wonderful and terrible.
Because you know wonderful will eventually come, but when it's terrible, you might get in the rut of hoping and wishing and
praying that they will finally change and never go back to that terrible way, that destructive way again.
(12:06):
But when that doesn't happen, then that extreme up and down cycle, which is the trauma bond, can make you tolerate the abusive
behavior just so you can get the love and connection again.
But the love and connection never comes without the abuse.
And so we have to be careful.
(12:27):
If you're ever in a trauma bond, you'll know it because you'll get abused in some way, you'll feel so bad, you'll suffer in
some way, and you'll still seek love and connection from the person who's making you suffer.
That's typically when you know you're in some sort of trauma bond.
It doesn't mean it's unbreakable, it just means it's there and you should know about it.
(12:48):
And breaking out of the trauma bond might be another episode altogether, but it really involves you overriding your belief that things will get better. That can be difficult.
Because we want things to be better, we want the person to learn that they're hurting us and realize that it's so awful and
they'll stop doing it on their own and then we'll finally feel that worth and love and connection that we sometimes feel from them.
(13:16):
But the follow-up is the pain, the follow-up is the suffering.
And so to get out of a trauma bond, it's vital to override the belief that things will get better.
That's just a small step and it's very difficult for some people and I understand that.
And again, that could be an episode for another show.
(13:36):
But now that I've said all this, I'm going to read you the message that I received and we'll see where we go with it.
This person wrote, my husband is 69 and I'm 54 and we have been married for over 20 years and I have just left the relationship
primarily due to his abusive behavior when he was drunk.
It slowly progressed to being nearly constant, drunk or not.
(14:01):
I can now see that the mean behavior was not just when he drank.
Why was it easier for me to say mean behavior rather than abuse?
Why is it easier for me to say he's just becoming a grumpy old man and a mean drunk rather than I see the narcissistic abuse
and the degree to which I was a victim.
(14:25):
I'm so sorry you went through that.
Thank you for sharing that and this is why I prefaced this episode with you're never too old to make changes.
This person's 69, decided to make changes. Good for you.
It can be very tough to make a change like this, but she did it.
And now she is reflecting on her life and reflecting on the way she describes what happened and she wants to know why couldn't I just call it abuse?
(14:55):
Why do I have to say it's just mean behavior or why was I saying that?
Why was it easier to say that?
Why was it easier to say he's just becoming a grumpy old man and a mean drunk rather than see the narcissistic abuse and the
degree to which I was a victim?
So let me outline my perspective here.
Who wants to say they are a victim of abuse, especially when it's going on to say that some people will feel shame.
(15:23):
Some people will feel like they're not doing enough to change things.
So to say that I'm a victim, you know, say the words, I'm a victim of abuse.
It's like telling the world, I mean, I'm, I'm just making a guess where you are or where you were.
It's like telling the world, I know that I'm being abused and I'm staying in the abuse voluntarily.
(15:49):
There are other ways to look at this, but that is one, that is one way.
It is hard to say, Hey, I'm being abused by a person who doesn't seem to care about me doing things selfishly, making me feel
terrible, making me feel unworthy and unlovable. And I'm choosing to stay.
I'm choosing to stay with this person.
(16:12):
It, um, it hits on your self-esteem, it hits on your self-worth.
So it might be very difficult for you to say, this is happening to me and I've done nothing to change it.
And I'm not saying you have done nothing during that time you were together, I'm just saying this might be one reason you don't want to call it abuse.
(16:32):
Because once you label it abuse or once you label something, you kind of have to deal with it.
It's, it's sort of like saying, um, I love this person. I love this person. I love this person.
And you get to the point where you go, you know, I, I'm really trying to love this person and there's so many things that are lovable about this person.
(16:54):
And then later on you're thinking, there are times I love them and there are times I just hate them.
And there are so many things I want them to stop doing, but they won't stop doing it.
And then you might get to the point where you say, I can't stand being around them anymore.
And when you get to that point where you say, I can't stand it, are you going to say, I'm leaving?
(17:18):
Are you going to tell your friends, I can't stand being around this person, so I'm leaving?
Or are you still in the phase of building a belief, building a structure of belief inside of you that pushes you to the brink or precipice of a decision?
(17:39):
Because that's what happens is that once we accept that they are abusive, they are the abuser, or they are never going to
change, that pushes the responsibility of what to do next onto us. And that can be very hard.
That means if you said he's an abuser, that would very likely make you feel responsible for what to do next.
(18:07):
Even though he's the one that should change because he's the abuser, you realize by saying he is the abuser, that in order
for change to happen, you have to make it happen.
Because the whole time you've been waiting for him to change.
And so calling somebody by the label, just defining it as it is, now puts the responsibility of change on you.
(18:35):
So that's how I see this in a couple of ways so far, is that A, we don't want to face the fact that we're in an abusive situation
because we might feel shame about that.
I don't want to call them an abuser because that means I'm the victim of abuse.
I don't want to be a victim, but I am.
And if I am a victim, what am I still doing here?
(18:56):
Because if somebody from the outside looked in and said, what, you're in an abusive situation? Why don't you leave?
So that thought might go through your mind.
Like I am the victim and now people know that I'm a victim.
And I know that I'm a victim, which means I'm choosing to stay as the victim.
So now it's my responsibility to change. It's my responsibility.
(19:18):
And that's the second part of what I was just saying.
It's my responsibility to make a decision for myself because that person isn't going to make a decision to change.
That person isn't going to make a decision to stop hurting me.
And so if I want to stop being hurt, I have to make the change.
And then that puts a burden on you to make the change because they're the ones who should be changing.
(19:39):
But if you are accepting that they are who they are and they won't change who they are, then you have no choice but to make
the changes because they aren't going to lift a finger.
And if they don't lift a finger, you have to. So that can be difficult.
It can be difficult to say, well, this is exactly what's happening to me.
And now I have to face the burden of making a decision that will change things, that will make it very difficult because once
(20:09):
I decide that this is what's happening, it's like saying now I have to make the change that I'm afraid to make, or now I have
to accept the reality that I don't want to accept because if this is true, then everything is going to change. And that can be overwhelming.
It can be overwhelming to say, wow, this is really what it is.
(20:31):
Now I got to do something big and scary.
So that could be a thought process going on.
Another thought process, and this is probably more prevalent, is that when you already feel worthless or unlovable, if you
admit that somebody is abusing you, it might solidify that you are truly worthless and unlovable because you might think,
(21:02):
why would they do that to me if I were lovable and if I were important in their life?
So it only makes sense to me if they don't love me, I must not be lovable.
And that will definitely hurt if you have that belief.
If you believe that your lovability, your worthiness, your value is defined through their eyes, then it can be very difficult
(21:27):
to come to the point where you say they are abusive and I am a victim because it could solidify some beliefs that you don't want to believe about yourself.
And you might be hanging on by a string, hoping that you are valuable and hoping that you are lovable and they see you as this way.
(21:49):
And if you have that little bit left, you might be holding on to that.
So here's the real 100% truth if you don't know it already.
You never ever define yourself through the eyes of an abusive or hurtful person.
When a hurtful or abusive person makes you feel like you're not worthy of love and connection and you're not important, their
(22:18):
beliefs, their words are irrelevant because they project what's going on inside of them, pushing their own fears and insecurities onto you.
And they make you responsible for their choice not to heal or change.
They make you responsible for what they don't want to heal inside themselves.
(22:44):
So I don't want you to think of yourself as unlovable or unworthy because you see yourself through somebody else's eyes.
Because we weren't born to be victims of abuse.
We were born to connect and love and be with others who also want to connect and love.
Sometimes we end up with people who are either incapable of doing that or don't want to do that or want to use us for other reasons.
(23:13):
But we have to remember the core of who we are.
You have to remember the core of who you are is someone who is valuable and lovable and doesn't deserve this behavior.
So never define yourself through the eyes of an abusive or hurtful person because they have stuff going on inside of them
(23:34):
that will skew their world and make others believe things about themselves that aren't true.
Because they know how to do that.
Because they don't want to deal with their own stuff or they can't deal with their own stuff or they don't believe they have a problem, whatever it is.
No matter what, they don't want to deal with their own stuff so they push their stuff onto you.
And then that makes you feel like you aren't important, which you are.
(23:59):
So to the person who wrote this is why I think that it was easier for you to say mean behavior than calling it abuse.
And he's becoming a grumpy old man and a mean drunk rather than seeing it as narcissistic abuse and the degree to which you were a victim. I hope this helps.
Thank you so much for writing and thanks for listening to another episode.
Share this with somebody who might benefit.
(24:21):
Love and Abuse is the official podcast of The Mean Workbook, an assessment and healing guide for difficult relationships.
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(24:44):
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(25:04):
safe listening button on the podcast page over at loveandabuse.com.
This show exists to remind you that you are not alone and you're not going crazy.
You are worthy of respect, kindness, and love, and you deserve to be accepted exactly as you are. Stay strong. We'll talk again soon.
Welcome to Love and Abuse, the show about navigating the difficult relationship, from simple disagreements to emotionally abusive behaviors. You deserve respect and kindness.
(00:10):
All the information on this show is meant for educational purposes only.
Always seek a professional for your mental health and well-being, and always pick your battles wisely. I'm your host, Paul Kolianyi.
All right, there are two things I want to say before I start today's episode, and one of them is it doesn't matter how old
(00:33):
you are if you want to tackle some difficulty in your relationship.
And I understand there's a certain point where you get to a certain age where you feel like you may not be able to do anything
about what's going on in a relationship that is challenging to you.
And I'm here to say that I've heard from people in their 70s, maybe not so many people in their 80s, but 70s and up, I've
(01:03):
heard from people that have changed their life by getting out of a situation or changing the relationship that they're in in some way by speaking up.
Mostly it's when they're that age, mostly they get out of that. They usually don't hang around.
I've often found, and maybe you have too, that older people, a lot of them are stuck in their ways.
(01:28):
That doesn't mean they're closed-minded, that just means some people feel like, oh, I'm too old to do anything about it.
And I'm here to say that don't ever think that you're too old to try to make changes that you need to make, because just imagine
if you don't try, then nothing will happen.
I'm a proponent of it's okay to try.
(01:53):
Some people say there is no try or don't try, do. I'm okay with let's try this.
Let's try it because what's not working now needs to change.
And so I preface today's episode with that, or at least that's one of the things I wanted to say is that it's not the age that stops you.
(02:16):
It's the belief that you're too old that stops you.
And I have not heard from anyone that is so old that they can't necessarily do something about it, or even speak up about something.
Because age is not the factor that stops them, it's the belief that they're too old that stops them.
(02:37):
So I'm putting that out there, and I'm not saying there aren't exceptions, I'm not saying that somebody might be at an age
where they are unable to take care of themselves or unable to come up with a different living arrangement or whatever.
There are people in that situation and I'm so sorry if you're going through that.
(02:57):
But most people, I'm going to say most people who reach an age where they think they're too old might be hanging on a belief
that doesn't work for them and may not even be true.
So I want to help you keep an open mind with that if you're reaching an age where you think, oh, I'm too old to change anything now.
(03:19):
Because again, I hear from people all the time and some of them are 60s, 70, I don't recall too many people in their 80s writing to me.
Doesn't mean that they don't want to make changes in their life or help their relationship in some way or get out of a relationship
or whatever, it just means I haven't heard from them.
(03:39):
And so the second thing I want to say is tagging from the try statement I made earlier.
I prefer you try to change what's happening instead of not trying anything.
Because what happens when you don't try is that you end up with what you have indefinitely.
(04:03):
When you don't try, you end up with what you have indefinitely, no matter what your age is.
So if you don't try something, if you don't have the conversation that you need to have or don't make the changes that you
need to make or whatever, if you don't do any of those things, then nothing ever changes.
Where people get stuck is, and I've seen this so many times and I'm so sorry for people who have gone through this, let's
(04:30):
just say you've been in a 20 plus year relationship or even a one plus year, but there are people that have written to me
that have been in 20 plus year, 30 plus year relationships that have dealt with the same thing day after day after day.
Some emotionally abusive behaviors, very difficult, challenging behaviors that create an awful environment.
(04:53):
An environment that makes you feel unhappy, worthless, insignificant to the person who is supposed to make you feel significant in a romantic relationship. We call them our significant other.
And when you feel insignificant to them, it doesn't feel like a relationship anymore. It feels like oppression. It feels like suffering.
(05:18):
So what I'm saying about trying is that if you don't try, you get the same results day after day until the end, whatever that end is, but it doesn't change.
And the people I hear from that have been in one plus, 10 plus, 20 plus, whatever year relationships, they still have hope
that the other person will change and they hope and wish and pray that that person will change someday, maybe today, maybe tomorrow.
(05:47):
And holding onto that hope keeps the relationship as it is.
And I know we use hope to lift our spirits, like maybe this will be different.
Maybe this time they'll understand what they're doing to me and stop.
And when you do that, when you hold onto hope and you don't consider what has happened day after day, you end up continuing
(06:17):
down the same road you've always been, which changes nothing.
And when people tell me, what if, or when they ask me, what if that person changes?
What if they stop doing that to me?
That usually tells me that it will never happen.
Because if you have to ask what if about someone, that tells me they already know in some way that their behavior is difficult or emotionally abusive.
(06:47):
Because if you are asking what if they change, that means they probably already know that they behave in ways that are unhealthy or toxic.
Because you don't say what if they change to someone that you've been with for a long time where neither of you have noticed that there's something wrong.
(07:09):
You don't ask what if about someone who hasn't already seen that there are challenges in the relationship.
And often it is one person trying to work on the relationship while the other person says you need to work on the relationship
or you need to work on your behaviors.
(07:29):
Often it is the victim of emotional abuse who considers what they can do better and how they can show up and how they can change, they themselves.
How can I change to accommodate this person?
How can I change so that they're happier?
That's usually the words of a victim of any type of toxic behaviors. I mean, not all victims.
(07:51):
In the long-term relationship where emotional abuse has been happening for a long time, you'll often hear that the victim
is trying to accommodate, trying to keep the peace, trying to make the changes that they believe the other person wants.
Whereas the perpetrator of emotionally abusive behavior wants the victim to change.
(08:13):
They want the other person to do what they want. They want submission. They want compliance.
And they themselves don't seem to want to change at all.
And so you have this dynamic of one person is trying to change and the other person is trying to change them.
It's the way you can tell there is an abusive dynamic going on, is that one person is always trying to change and the other
(08:39):
person is always trying to change that person.
And then what ends up happening is that when there aren't any changes, the victim can get into a space of hoping and wishing
and praying that the other person will finally see that their behavior is hurtful and toxic and maybe they'll stop.
And so they get into that what-if mentality. What if they stop today?
(09:03):
What if tomorrow they see how much damage they've done and then they stop?
Because I know that there is good in them.
And so that's what I wanted to talk about before I read this message that I received, is that it's not that you're too old,
it's that you believe you're too old.
(09:23):
And yes, there are exceptions to that. And also, why not try?
Because if you don't, nothing will happen.
And if you believe something will happen if you don't try, then what ends up happening is that you get stuck in the rut of
hoping and wishing and praying that things will be different.
(09:44):
And just as a reminder, if you've been listening for a while, you heard me talk about the trend line.
The trend line is what has been happening up to this point. Has it gotten better? Are things progressing?
Or has it gone downhill and stayed there?
Is it that straight line of little change?
(10:05):
Or is it extremely up and down, extremely positive and then negative?
That will create a lot of trauma, you know, the trauma bond that forms with the wonderful moments of love and the terrible moments of abusive behavior.
That cycle creates patterns in the brain that relate abusive behavior to love and love to abusive behavior, but you're always
(10:35):
seeking more of that love and more of that connection and more of the good behavior.
And because you've seen it, you've seen the good behavior, you felt the love, especially in the extremist points where there's
a lot of love and a lot of good, and then a lot of bad and a lot of hurt, that creates almost a craving inside for the good times.
(10:59):
And that craving, that desire for the love, the connection that you have seen many times, it can override self-protection, it can override even self-respect.
Because you can feel worthless, you can feel unloved, you can feel disconnected and you want to feel the opposite of all those
(11:22):
things, and you know you can feel that way with the person that is putting you through this abuse cycle.
And because you know you can feel that way with that person, you stay another day.
Or you don't risk rocking the boat by mentioning that you can't take it anymore, so you continue to be exposed to these behaviors
(11:46):
that have these extremes of wonderful and terrible.
Because you know wonderful will eventually come, but when it's terrible, you might get in the rut of hoping and wishing and
praying that they will finally change and never go back to that terrible way, that destructive way again.
(12:06):
But when that doesn't happen, then that extreme up and down cycle, which is the trauma bond, can make you tolerate the abusive
behavior just so you can get the love and connection again.
But the love and connection never comes without the abuse.
And so we have to be careful.
(12:27):
If you're ever in a trauma bond, you'll know it because you'll get abused in some way, you'll feel so bad, you'll suffer in
some way, and you'll still seek love and connection from the person who's making you suffer.
That's typically when you know you're in some sort of trauma bond.
It doesn't mean it's unbreakable, it just means it's there and you should know about it.
(12:48):
And breaking out of the trauma bond might be another episode altogether, but it really involves you overriding your belief that things will get better. That can be difficult.
Because we want things to be better, we want the person to learn that they're hurting us and realize that it's so awful and
they'll stop doing it on their own and then we'll finally feel that worth and love and connection that we sometimes feel from them.
(13:16):
But the follow-up is the pain, the follow-up is the suffering.
And so to get out of a trauma bond, it's vital to override the belief that things will get better.
That's just a small step and it's very difficult for some people and I understand that.
And again, that could be an episode for another show.
(13:36):
But now that I've said all this, I'm going to read you the message that I received and we'll see where we go with it.
This person wrote, my husband is 69 and I'm 54 and we have been married for over 20 years and I have just left the relationship
primarily due to his abusive behavior when he was drunk.
It slowly progressed to being nearly constant, drunk or not.
(14:01):
I can now see that the mean behavior was not just when he drank.
Why was it easier for me to say mean behavior rather than abuse?
Why is it easier for me to say he's just becoming a grumpy old man and a mean drunk rather than I see the narcissistic abuse
and the degree to which I was a victim.
(14:25):
I'm so sorry you went through that.
Thank you for sharing that and this is why I prefaced this episode with you're never too old to make changes.
This person's 69, decided to make changes. Good for you.
It can be very tough to make a change like this, but she did it.
And now she is reflecting on her life and reflecting on the way she describes what happened and she wants to know why couldn't I just call it abuse?
(14:55):
Why do I have to say it's just mean behavior or why was I saying that?
Why was it easier to say that?
Why was it easier to say he's just becoming a grumpy old man and a mean drunk rather than see the narcissistic abuse and the
degree to which I was a victim?
So let me outline my perspective here.
Who wants to say they are a victim of abuse, especially when it's going on to say that some people will feel shame.
(15:23):
Some people will feel like they're not doing enough to change things.
So to say that I'm a victim, you know, say the words, I'm a victim of abuse.
It's like telling the world, I mean, I'm, I'm just making a guess where you are or where you were.
It's like telling the world, I know that I'm being abused and I'm staying in the abuse voluntarily.
(15:49):
There are other ways to look at this, but that is one, that is one way.
It is hard to say, Hey, I'm being abused by a person who doesn't seem to care about me doing things selfishly, making me feel
terrible, making me feel unworthy and unlovable. And I'm choosing to stay.
I'm choosing to stay with this person.
(16:12):
It, um, it hits on your self-esteem, it hits on your self-worth.
So it might be very difficult for you to say, this is happening to me and I've done nothing to change it.
And I'm not saying you have done nothing during that time you were together, I'm just saying this might be one reason you don't want to call it abuse.
(16:32):
Because once you label it abuse or once you label something, you kind of have to deal with it.
It's, it's sort of like saying, um, I love this person. I love this person. I love this person.
And you get to the point where you go, you know, I, I'm really trying to love this person and there's so many things that are lovable about this person.
(16:54):
And then later on you're thinking, there are times I love them and there are times I just hate them.
And there are so many things I want them to stop doing, but they won't stop doing it.
And then you might get to the point where you say, I can't stand being around them anymore.
And when you get to that point where you say, I can't stand it, are you going to say, I'm leaving?
(17:18):
Are you going to tell your friends, I can't stand being around this person, so I'm leaving?
Or are you still in the phase of building a belief, building a structure of belief inside of you that pushes you to the brink or precipice of a decision?
(17:39):
Because that's what happens is that once we accept that they are abusive, they are the abuser, or they are never going to
change, that pushes the responsibility of what to do next onto us. And that can be very hard.
That means if you said he's an abuser, that would very likely make you feel responsible for what to do next.
(18:07):
Even though he's the one that should change because he's the abuser, you realize by saying he is the abuser, that in order
for change to happen, you have to make it happen.
Because the whole time you've been waiting for him to change.
And so calling somebody by the label, just defining it as it is, now puts the responsibility of change on you.
(18:35):
So that's how I see this in a couple of ways so far, is that A, we don't want to face the fact that we're in an abusive situation
because we might feel shame about that.
I don't want to call them an abuser because that means I'm the victim of abuse.
I don't want to be a victim, but I am.
And if I am a victim, what am I still doing here?
(18:56):
Because if somebody from the outside looked in and said, what, you're in an abusive situation? Why don't you leave?
So that thought might go through your mind.
Like I am the victim and now people know that I'm a victim.
And I know that I'm a victim, which means I'm choosing to stay as the victim.
So now it's my responsibility to change. It's my responsibility.
(19:18):
And that's the second part of what I was just saying.
It's my responsibility to make a decision for myself because that person isn't going to make a decision to change.
That person isn't going to make a decision to stop hurting me.
And so if I want to stop being hurt, I have to make the change.
And then that puts a burden on you to make the change because they're the ones who should be changing.
(19:39):
But if you are accepting that they are who they are and they won't change who they are, then you have no choice but to make
the changes because they aren't going to lift a finger.
And if they don't lift a finger, you have to. So that can be difficult.
It can be difficult to say, well, this is exactly what's happening to me.
And now I have to face the burden of making a decision that will change things, that will make it very difficult because once
(20:09):
I decide that this is what's happening, it's like saying now I have to make the change that I'm afraid to make, or now I have
to accept the reality that I don't want to accept because if this is true, then everything is going to change. And that can be overwhelming.
It can be overwhelming to say, wow, this is really what it is.
(20:31):
Now I got to do something big and scary.
So that could be a thought process going on.
Another thought process, and this is probably more prevalent, is that when you already feel worthless or unlovable, if you
admit that somebody is abusing you, it might solidify that you are truly worthless and unlovable because you might think,
(21:02):
why would they do that to me if I were lovable and if I were important in their life?
So it only makes sense to me if they don't love me, I must not be lovable.
And that will definitely hurt if you have that belief.
If you believe that your lovability, your worthiness, your value is defined through their eyes, then it can be very difficult
(21:27):
to come to the point where you say they are abusive and I am a victim because it could solidify some beliefs that you don't want to believe about yourself.
And you might be hanging on by a string, hoping that you are valuable and hoping that you are lovable and they see you as this way.
(21:49):
And if you have that little bit left, you might be holding on to that.
So here's the real 100% truth if you don't know it already.
You never ever define yourself through the eyes of an abusive or hurtful person.
When a hurtful or abusive person makes you feel like you're not worthy of love and connection and you're not important, their
(22:18):
beliefs, their words are irrelevant because they project what's going on inside of them, pushing their own fears and insecurities onto you.
And they make you responsible for their choice not to heal or change.
They make you responsible for what they don't want to heal inside themselves.
(22:44):
So I don't want you to think of yourself as unlovable or unworthy because you see yourself through somebody else's eyes.
Because we weren't born to be victims of abuse.
We were born to connect and love and be with others who also want to connect and love.
Sometimes we end up with people who are either incapable of doing that or don't want to do that or want to use us for other reasons.
(23:13):
But we have to remember the core of who we are.
You have to remember the core of who you are is someone who is valuable and lovable and doesn't deserve this behavior.
So never define yourself through the eyes of an abusive or hurtful person because they have stuff going on inside of them
(23:34):
that will skew their world and make others believe things about themselves that aren't true.
Because they know how to do that.
Because they don't want to deal with their own stuff or they can't deal with their own stuff or they don't believe they have a problem, whatever it is.
No matter what, they don't want to deal with their own stuff so they push their stuff onto you.
And then that makes you feel like you aren't important, which you are.
(23:59):
So to the person who wrote this is why I think that it was easier for you to say mean behavior than calling it abuse.
And he's becoming a grumpy old man and a mean drunk rather than seeing it as narcissistic abuse and the degree to which you were a victim. I hope this helps.
Thank you so much for writing and thanks for listening to another episode.
Share this with somebody who might benefit.
(24:21):
Love and Abuse is the official podcast of The Mean Workbook, an assessment and healing guide for difficult relationships.
The workbook contains a 200 point assessment to tell you exactly what's causing you to leave so many interactions feeling bad. Gain clarity on your relationship today. Visit loveandabuse.com for more information.
If you've discovered that you are doing the hurtful behaviors to someone that you care about and you want to change that about
(24:44):
yourself, sign up for the only program that walks you through the entire process of healing from being emotionally abusive.
It has changed thousands of lives and relationships and can change yours too.
Visit healedbeing.com to start with some free lessons right away.
And if you're looking for a safer way to listen to this show where all the titles to the episodes are changed, click on the
(25:04):
safe listening button on the podcast page over at loveandabuse.com.
This show exists to remind you that you are not alone and you're not going crazy.
You are worthy of respect, kindness, and love, and you deserve to be accepted exactly as you are. Stay strong. We'll talk again soon.
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