August 7, 2025 • 29 mins
In this thought-provoking episode of Love, Discovery and Dim Sum, we ask the hard question: Is DEI dead? With recent headlines showing companies slashing diversity roles, anti-DEI legislation on the rise, and public skepticism growing, we unpack what's really going on. Is this a backlash—or a reckoning? We dive into the historical context of diversity and inclusion efforts, why they’ve become a lightning rod, and what this means for the future of equity in the workplace, media, and beyond. Join us for a candid conversation about this controversial topic.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I Discovered Discovered Candy. Hey everyone, it's Larisa Lamb and
only one and this is the Love Discovery and.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Podcast. Yep, I am hungry.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
You haven't had dim sum.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
In a very long time. I don't know why.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
You're suffering from dim sum with drawls, I am, I am.
There is a program for that, dim Sum anonymous dim
some eaters, anonymous, dim Sum not eaters, anonymous not eat
So we've been teasing this for a while. I know
we took a little detour in terms of uh morning
(00:42):
and talking about the film Sinners. We have seen this
year a very concerted effort to kind of kill diversity,
equity and inclusion, otherwise known as the dreaded d e
I from Life and the World.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Or is it die now? Now that's dead?
Speaker 1 (01:03):
That's right, DEI d e d.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Ah sad.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Uh So what we want to do with this episode
is maybe kind of clear up some of the myths
of those who may be mourning the death of DEI.
We may be talking about is it really dead?
Speaker 3 (01:24):
I mean, it can't really be dead because everyone's still
alive in this world, and the world is diverse. So
how do you kill diversity when everything around.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Us is diverse.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
I know, right, So why would you why would you
even want to kill something that's not killable.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
So now it's turning into an existential crisis. So we're
going to unpack a lot of different things with DEI today, Okay,
because I think this is something that has been misunderstood. Yes,
the term has been misused.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Right since when is all three of the words presented
by those three letters a bad word?
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Exactly? It's just anything that's not your mainstream history, anything
that's not what you've been traditionally taught as white American
history has been thrown out Dei. Oh, we can't have
any black history, we can't have Asian American history. Oh,
we can't consider anybody's ethnicity. Everybody's the same.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Yeah, I mean I was talking to an American history
professor and he actually said to me after watching Faris
Deep South, he said, you know, this is this might
be your family's history, but this history does not belong
to you. It's not Chinese American history just because you're
of Chinese ethnicity that this history belongs to you. And
he also said black history doesn't belong to black people,
(02:44):
and him, as a white guy, white history doesn't belong
to him. History doesn't belong to anybody.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
History just is.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
So how can we do a disservice to history by
excluding other people's history?
Speaker 1 (02:57):
And I will say this as we kind of go
along this conversation again, I kind of flippantly was talking
about getting rid of all these things. But DEEI has
unfortunately been used as a catch all. And you just
gave an example of just history DEI being applied at schools,
(03:19):
being applied at companies, in public monuments and museums, in
just hiring practices. Right, So it's been kind of thrown around,
So let's kind of break down a little bit of
what it's not. Now, we've done a lot of work
(03:40):
as diversity and inclusion consultants. A lot of the events
that we do, a lot of the screenings and discussions,
what we're asked to speak on involves discussions on diversity
and inclusion and really how it's a positive thing, right, Right,
So we've been in the space for a while now.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
Yeah, so my question is always, now, how did diversity
go from being a good thing into a bad thing?
Because diversity in itself, right, just the word diversity is
actually a good thing, right, I mean, we want diversity.
If you want a healthy diet, right, you want diversity
in your food. You want to have fruits, vegetables, but
(04:18):
you also want proteins, you want you want your dairy.
You want to be able to eat a little bit
of everything so that you can be healthy. Right, So
that's good diversity. If you want to have good fitness, right,
you want to be good health physically, then most, actually
not most, I would say all physical trainers will say
you need a diverse exercise regiment. You can't just be
(04:39):
lifting with you gotta do some cardio, you gotta do
some stretching, right, you gotta do some mental stuff like
breathing exercises as well. Right, All those different diverse things
in your fitness exercises helps you become healthy. And then,
of course, right, we always care about money. Right, you
talk to any financial person, they're going to be like,
you need to diversify your portfolio. You can't have all
(05:01):
your eggs in one basket. You can't just just put
all your stuff.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Into one thing.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Diversity is a good thing, and it's the best way
to ensure healthiness.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Why is it any different when.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
We talk about humanity in our relationships in how we
learn and who we learn about. Wouldn't diversity be another
way of healthy growth in our humanity so that we
can learn from each other, we can understand each other better,
we can speak to each other and understand each other's
circumstances better. And can't we build and create better things
(05:36):
and more efficient things if we had diversity in our humanity.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Well, that all sounds fine and dandy, but let me
just say, there are a lot of naysayers out there,
So let me represent the naysayers out there.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
All right.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
The naysayers will say.
Speaker 4 (05:54):
Well, quotas, that's bad at the expense of taking away
the opportunities for people that are in the majority predominantly.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
White, right, or sometimes this Asians gets thrown into the
discussion in higher education in terms of like, you're taking
away opportunities for other Asians and white people in education
because there's too many of them. But then now they
want to reduce the amount of people who are qualified
to get that seat at the education table.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
It's funny how you say the majority doesn't want their
seats taken away, but that majority is only a majority
for a short period of human history. In the United
States of America, actually they are the minorities, and they
took away the opportunities of the global majority in the
history of the United States.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Burn.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Yeah, so it's about perspective, right, and I think there's
some people that want the status quo. Let me just
defend some of the naysayers to an extent, whereas I
can understand where diversity for just diversity's sake, for checking
a box, or putting something in for the sake of
(07:10):
putting something in when it's maybe not the best thing.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
Right or not necessary or yeah, definitely if it's not
for the best thing, and I totally agree with that,
I understand that.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Or it's at the expense in a malicious way.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
That's true too, it is.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
It can be very detrimental. I'll give an example a
friend of ours who I will not name, who is
a director who is of Asian descent. You know, he
was telling me where he started getting more jobs hired
as a director. He started as a camera operator, and
he had been worked for twenty years in the industry,
(07:47):
and so he had earned his stripes. He was good.
He worked on a lot of major TV shows. But
when he started getting these directing jobs, there were people
that started looking at him as like, oh, he must
have been a diversity higher right. And so sometimes when
you are quickly trying to throw in diversity or fix
(08:09):
a wrong with overcorrecting, I can see why people have
some pushback to it. But the solution to that isn't
to just wipe everything out and just all of us
say diversity is bad. Like anything, it's trying to identify
the merits of diversity, but also what practices can improve
(08:33):
and what are some of the underlying issues that are
causing the discrepancy with some of the lack of diversity right.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
Right, Well, I don't think white people say the same thing.
They won't be like, oh, I just got the role
because I'm white. Oh, the CEO of that new company
got it because he's white. So why would they say that.
Why would people say, oh, they just got the role
because they're Asian or because they're black. For diversity, right
(09:01):
because or if you're a woman, or if you're a woman, right,
she just got the role because she's a woman. You
could say that about anything. When we're talking about merit,
I think merit speaks for itself. There are ways to
quantify merit. There are results that you can see from merit. Obviously,
if you have a person that gets promoted to a
(09:21):
position and that person has done absolutely nothing but they're
a specific color, then you can question that, right. I
don't think that's really happening. I don't think you have
totally unqualified people with no training absolutely at all, that
are being hired for positions that require specific training.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
I'll take directing for an example. As a female director,
the percentages even now, if you look at them, female
directors make a very small percentage of all the directors
of the top like two hundred and fifty films.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
And I think females are still about fifty percent of.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
The population, right, And you can't just say like, oh, well,
female directors aren't as good as male directors, or they're
just not as many of us. Maybe there are fewer
percentage of us going into the profession, but it's not
like twelve percent versus like eighty percent, which is what
kind of the percentages are. For film. There's more parody
over the last several years in television episodic, but certainly
(10:22):
in films that's still very very imbalanced.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
Yeah, and well, I mean, and you're talking about film,
but I had a recent conversation when we're talking about
music and we're I was trying to really promote an
Asian American group to be playable on radio, someone a
group that has had a lot of attention over the
last few years. And the executive basically told me, you know,
it's true, this group is very good. It's potentially better
(10:50):
than some of the groups that we are playing now.
But in radio, there are only so many artists that.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Are allowed to be played on the radio.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
Way if you only have twenty four hours in a
day and they have to have x amount, lets say
forty regular played artists on the docket. Right, if we
put an Asian person or group into the place of
somebody that's white, now the white count has gotten lower
because it is, in that case, a zero sum game
(11:18):
and the people in power happen to be white. Now,
this person I was talking to was not white. He
is also a minority that is also trying to champion
artists that represent other communities as well. When there are
opportunities where Asians or black or Hispanics are clearly I'm
just gonna say it better than some of these other
(11:40):
artists that are white. It is hard for the executives
and the powers to be that are trying to get
money from white organizations, white sponsorship, white run advertisements to say, hmm,
let me allow this person of color who might possibly
be better than this other artist, replace this artist, and
now we have a different color and they don't represent
(12:02):
a majority of our funders.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Right.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
My argument was, you've been neglecting other funders that are
Asian or black or Latino, that you're just happy with
your white funders. Don't you want Asian, Latino and black
funders as well going into radio? And the executive said,
you would think so, but they're not thinking that way, and.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
That goes back to the underlying systemic issues, correct, because like,
why is the playlist only forty artists on a radio station?
I understand from a commercial standpoint, good point, why only forty?
Speaker 3 (12:42):
Right?
Speaker 1 (12:43):
And there's this thing in music psychology because I actually
took a class on the psychology of music in college
where the more you hear a song, the more familiar
it is, right, And so that's why playlists are kind
of shorter.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Way.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
We live in a Spotify world now where people are
their own playlists where they could be endless. Right, But
there's seven days like, why can't you make more room
for one, two, three artists that are not in the
regular category. See, it's that mentality, Like you said, it's
a mentality, it's a bias. And for years, this is
(13:21):
the problem with the entertainment industry. We've seen this in
film right, like people would say, oh, you can't have
Asian leads, you can't have black leads because only black
people will see a film about other black people. Only
Asians would see a film about Asians. That's why it
took so long between Joylut Club and Crazy Rich Asians
(13:41):
for us to have a film. So we get to
watch all these white actors all the time. In fact,
you had somebody want to ask you what if they
were allowed to watch Crazy Asians because they weren't Asian.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
Yeah, they thought that they only Asian people could watch
Asian people. And I was like, do only white people
watch white people?
Speaker 2 (13:59):
I watch a lot of white people.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
And we've seen, based on the success of Black Panther
and even Sinners recently, which we talked about on our
last podcast, that there is an audience. If you make
a good film, people of all backgrounds will go watch
it because there's a human experience, or people like vampires
and like horror and they will go So.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
Now would even say far e steep South. I mean,
we are very fortunate to have a very diverse group
of people that have watched We know that over two
million people have watched our film. I don't know how
many more we'll watch with PBS, but that's a whole
another topic.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
That we are going to approach in our next podcast.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
But my comment was, you know our film.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
We first thought when I first made this movie, and
we were making this movie, I thought, well, are people
going to watch this? Because do people care about Chinese
Americans in this country? We're less than Chinese Americans are
about three percent of the population in this country. Maybe less, right,
only if you add up all the different ethnic groups
within Chinese. Right, we're about three percent. So what's going
(15:07):
to happen with the other ninety seven percent? Are any
of the other ninety seven percent going to watch this movie?
And the answer is yes.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
In the case of going back to female directors, the
discrepancy has been consistent over the last couple decades or
more actually from the beginning of cinema. So if female
enroment in film schools are increasing and you see more
people in the profession. I haven't even gotten into being
(15:34):
a female composer because I'm in that camp as well.
You can see it. That's where a need arises, where
you want to create pathways for female directors, female composers
to be noticed who are just as good, maybe even
better in many cases than some of their male counterparts.
(15:56):
Because a lot of times it's not because people are
being latantly sexist or racist. And I think that's where
a lot of this anti DEI feeling comes from. Is
people don't want to think the racist or sexist right,
and so if you remove that out of the equation,
you're like, well, we're just going to value everybody. Then
(16:17):
people aren't confronted with the historical imbalances of the past.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
Right.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
So like for women, we have just had a biased
against us. We've taken the race out of that right,
it's just gender. And just think about the history of
our civilization. It has been a male dominated society. You know,
women were just at home taking care of babies. That's
kind of how we were looked at. In fact, in
(16:43):
our new documentary Who's Afraid of Virginia Wing, I'm going
to be spending some time talking about gender roles, especially
in the mid nineteen hundreds, and how that's kind of
progressed because the bottom line is women have not been
on equal playing field as men, because again it's a
subconscious bias a lot of times. That's why we need
(17:06):
to bring attention sometimes to these issues. Now, I understand
when people are like, we're only going to work with
women and we hate men and we don't like that.
I mean, I can see why there's some pushback right right,
Like that's where people get all crazy the opposite end.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
So I think what we're kind of saying is DEI diversity, inclusion, equity.
Those are not bad things, but just as other things
in life, when things are overdone, it can become bad.
Just like ice cream is not bad, but that's all
you're gonna eat, and you're just gonna have ice cream,
and you only force ice cream down your throat because
(17:45):
ice cream is good, and we haven't had enough ice
cream in a long long time. We just got to
force ice cream down. That's not good, right, And that's
kind of what I feel like DEI had become. So
now we've won the polar opposite and say, oh man,
we had too much. Yeah, we had too much ice cream.
We're gonna not have any more ice cream ever again
because that was so bad.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Right, And I understand if people are upset just because
they have a flavor, they don't think that belongs there,
Like baseball net at aspect, don't.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Talk about baseball.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
That's my favorite flavor, and people go, why is.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
That flavor in there? They don't even deserve to be there.
It does, I know.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
I'm just because it's awesome and because people are awesome.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Diversity needs to happen.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
That's why the like ginger ice cream.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
I don't know about that. I hate ginger. Why did
somebody event this exotic flavor of ginger ice cream? Hey,
really doesn't belong there. I've also had garlic ice cream.
Really shouldn't be an ice cream flavor, yet somebody put
that in there.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
For diversity's sake. It's in there.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
But there's something for everybody. And here's the other thing
that people don't realize. When we're talking about diversity and inclusion,
it's not just about gender or race. It's also a
lot of times about disability that people don't realize. So
there was recent reports in the news this past week
where some of the anti DEI funding that got cut
(19:15):
was for research for people that are hearing impaired, and
so there's a lot of research helping to improve people's hearing.
I think most people would agree that helping more people
who are losing their hearing, who have lost hear their hearing,
is a good thing, right, right, Because it's not even
(19:35):
people who are just born with hearing disability. It's some
of us who may be getting older, or parents who
have lost their hearing, or people that are veterans or
who have been in combat zones. Right, And so all
of a sudden, if you just cut out everything under
this blanket term DEI, you're not really understanding that diverse
(20:00):
city equity and inclusion actually includes a lot of people,
well qualified people, well qualified people, and it's not always
just a matter about race. It's not just about gender identity.
It's like it's encompassed to so much more than that.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
So now we run the risk of cutting out people
that are well qualified and not allowing people that are
well qualified to have an opportunity also simply because.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Of race, it's also cutting out opportunities to help different
populations thrive and finding out like maybe there are some
similar things to health disparities between Black latinos Asians. And
if you say, like, we're only going to fund everything
that is encompassing everybody, and we're not going to fund
(20:47):
anything that's specific to an ethnic group, It's not about
discrimination or race or favoring. It's about looking at a
population and going there are differences in our physiological makeup.
There may be differences of where we are geographically that
we need to look at it.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
And I think one thing we don't talk about is experiences.
There there is undeniable that people of different ethnicities have
different experiences. Why would you not want different experiences into
your office in corporate spaces? Why wouldn't you want them
different experiences in your education spaces? Why wouldn't you want
them in your restaurants?
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Right?
Speaker 2 (21:26):
For different flavor?
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Why wouldn't you want that in anything with different people
with different experiences to add to the overall culture.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Salid Bowl of America.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Exactly, my salad bowl exactly.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Why would we want just.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Greens in a salad bowl? Right?
Speaker 3 (21:42):
Why wouldn't we want all the different colors that are
and encompass a nice, healthy, beautiful salad. Why wouldn't you
want that? Or why would you just want all carrots
or all tomatoes or all lettuce, not even like spinach
and arugula.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
But just iceberg letters. Just eat iceberg let not icebread.
Cove right.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
Getting rid of bias has separates you out of your
salad bowl, put you back in the salad bar, into
your compartments, and leave you separated where people can just
look at you and wonder what should.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
We do with you?
Speaker 1 (22:22):
I like that analogy doesn't work. I don't know, but
we'll go with it. I think the other thing that
people are forgetting is diversity isn't just skin color, right,
And as we mentioned gender, like there is diversity in
regions like you said, experiences, right, And so I think
(22:44):
the more we can talk about diversity, not just in
these very limited categories. And yes, for some of the
initiatives that we've talked about in terms of wanting to
give pathways to women which may have been there before
or they've been overlooked, whereas the same ten directors that
are always guys are always being suggested for films like Hey,
(23:09):
maybe you should try Greta Gerwig. She might make you
a fantastic barbie film where it might have been a
guy would have been like Steven Spielberg's Barbie.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Inside Barbie and Ken Right and Ken Barbie and.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
They meet et, which would be kind of a cool
movie too. But there is this need for kind of
opening people's eyes that you said, there's more to the
salad bar than just lettuce. And because a lot of
people just have unconscious blinders and bias, they don't see it.
(23:51):
I have friends who will say like, oh, you know,
I didn't have any problems getting that job, or I
see women all the time working in these jobs. I'm like, yeah,
but do you really take a step back and see
just because one woe when you know is a really
good producer, doesn't mean there's a lot of women producers.
I had a whole social media conversation with somebody about this.
They're like, I hire women. It's like, well, just because
(24:13):
you hire women doesn't mean everybody hires women.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
It's like the person who stood up in one of
our screenings when they found out about the Chinese Exclusion Act,
this white gentleman. He's like, I never excluded anybody. It's like, no,
you never personally excluded anybody. But the American government excluded
the Chinese from coming into this country and becoming citizens. Yeah,
(24:40):
so it did happen. So going back to the idea,
the pushback comes from people don't want to look in
the mirror and realize that we have unconscious biases and
that we need to sometimes open people's eyes to some
of these discrepancies.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
But I hope what it does happen, though, is that
people that have taken DEI to the ultra ultra levels
where it is now more combative than inviting. I hope
it does open their eyes and our eyes to say, like, hmmm,
at what point is going too far? I look at
it as I've been doing a lot of boxing lately,
(25:19):
and and I think about it as you know, I
think there's a lot of people in the majority white
people that feel like they've been they've been kind, they've
been nice, and then all of a sudden, they're getting
people are boxing, they're hitting them, and they're like, wait
a minute, I'm not trying to cause any problems. I'm
just a white guy that's trying to do my thing
and trying to be nice. And then and then all
(25:40):
of a sudden, people are boxing, They're hitting you from
all the side saying you're white, you're bad, You're bad, and.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
You're putting up your defenses. You're putting your.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
Hands and you're blocking, you're blocking, and you're getting pounded,
and you're trying to defend yourself, and at some point
you're going to be like, I can't I can't defend anymore.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
I gotta start punching. I can't just keep defending. I
gotta go on the offensive.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
And I think we've gotten to the point where a
lot of people that used to be on our side
or could have been on our side, have felt so
threatened that now they've taken the opposite extremes.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Now I'm just gonna keep pounding.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
I'm just gonna keep on punching, even now if I'm winning,
I'm just gonna keep on punching because I am sick
and tired of getting pounded on. I think there's a
lesson to be learned from that, where, Okay, there's a
common middle ground that makes sense, there's a middle ground
that says like, hey, we're not doing enough and doing
way too much, And there's a part in the middle
(26:30):
which I think we should all advocate for, saying, hey,
there's beauty in everything.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
If we go.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
Overboard in one end, you're not going to have that
beauty anymore. And if you go underboard on the opposite end,
you're not gonna have anything at all of the either.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Yeah, and I think a lot of times why people
also feel aggression towards quote unquote DEI policies is I
have a lot of friends who are white who grew
up poor, and so they said, I didn't have it easy.
Now they don't recognize certain things that they may have
a privilege in. But by and heard, they've had a
(27:06):
tough life. And you know, if you dress them up
in a suit and walk them into the room, they
would maybe be respected more in certain things. But that's
not how they see themselves, right, Like they had the struggle,
they grew up poor, they didn't have any and they
and they may see people that are successful like African
American athletes who are making millions of dollars, or you
(27:27):
see doctors and lawyers that are that are of Asian descent.
You know, they may see people that are of color
that they see successful and they're like, that's not me.
So I don't know, I don't understand why do they
need more help no one's helping me, right, And so
I think part of that is against socio economics. So
in talking about diversity, it's not just about race always,
(27:50):
and I think that's why people get upset, is is
that it's it is sociate economic.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
Yeah, so I think, I mean, after this discussion, just
thinking about this for so long, is I mean, I
don't think getting rid of DEI is the answer. But
maybe making DEI better, making it more authentic, making it
more fine, fine tuning it so that DEI benefits everyone.
I think that's the answer. Is it's making DEI work better,
(28:16):
not getting rid of it.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
That's well said, and I think there's a point to
be made in terms of maybe we need to kind
of separate some of these ideas of diversity and inclusion
because it has become a catch all and for the
better and for the worse, each industry in each community
has kind of different needs.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
Diversity and humanity. That's what we need.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
We need a bigger salad bar and there's room for
everybody until they close the sup plantation.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
No, that's so sad.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
We could unpack this all day. But our next topic,
we're going to have a next episode is now the
death of PBS. Tune into the next episode where we
unpack the impact of that and where do we go next.
This has been Love Discovery and follow us on social
(29:10):
media at L d D podcast.
Speaker 4 (29:17):
I discovered Discover a lit candy.
Speaker 3 (29:22):
Do what
I Discovered Discovered Candy. Hey everyone, it's Larisa Lamb and
only one and this is the Love Discovery and.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Podcast. Yep, I am hungry.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
You haven't had dim sum.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
In a very long time. I don't know why.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
You're suffering from dim sum with drawls, I am, I am.
There is a program for that, dim Sum anonymous dim
some eaters, anonymous, dim Sum not eaters, anonymous not eat
So we've been teasing this for a while. I know
we took a little detour in terms of uh morning
(00:42):
and talking about the film Sinners. We have seen this
year a very concerted effort to kind of kill diversity,
equity and inclusion, otherwise known as the dreaded d e
I from Life and the World.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Or is it die now? Now that's dead?
Speaker 1 (01:03):
That's right, DEI d e d.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Ah sad.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Uh So what we want to do with this episode
is maybe kind of clear up some of the myths
of those who may be mourning the death of DEI.
We may be talking about is it really dead?
Speaker 3 (01:24):
I mean, it can't really be dead because everyone's still
alive in this world, and the world is diverse. So
how do you kill diversity when everything around.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Us is diverse.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
I know, right, So why would you why would you
even want to kill something that's not killable.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
So now it's turning into an existential crisis. So we're
going to unpack a lot of different things with DEI today, Okay,
because I think this is something that has been misunderstood. Yes,
the term has been misused.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Right since when is all three of the words presented
by those three letters a bad word?
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Exactly? It's just anything that's not your mainstream history, anything
that's not what you've been traditionally taught as white American
history has been thrown out Dei. Oh, we can't have
any black history, we can't have Asian American history. Oh,
we can't consider anybody's ethnicity. Everybody's the same.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Yeah, I mean I was talking to an American history
professor and he actually said to me after watching Faris
Deep South, he said, you know, this is this might
be your family's history, but this history does not belong
to you. It's not Chinese American history just because you're
of Chinese ethnicity that this history belongs to you. And
he also said black history doesn't belong to black people,
(02:44):
and him, as a white guy, white history doesn't belong
to him. History doesn't belong to anybody.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
History just is.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
So how can we do a disservice to history by
excluding other people's history?
Speaker 1 (02:57):
And I will say this as we kind of go
along this conversation again, I kind of flippantly was talking
about getting rid of all these things. But DEEI has
unfortunately been used as a catch all. And you just
gave an example of just history DEI being applied at schools,
(03:19):
being applied at companies, in public monuments and museums, in
just hiring practices. Right, So it's been kind of thrown around,
So let's kind of break down a little bit of
what it's not. Now, we've done a lot of work
(03:40):
as diversity and inclusion consultants. A lot of the events
that we do, a lot of the screenings and discussions,
what we're asked to speak on involves discussions on diversity
and inclusion and really how it's a positive thing, right, Right,
So we've been in the space for a while now.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
Yeah, so my question is always, now, how did diversity
go from being a good thing into a bad thing?
Because diversity in itself, right, just the word diversity is
actually a good thing, right, I mean, we want diversity.
If you want a healthy diet, right, you want diversity
in your food. You want to have fruits, vegetables, but
(04:18):
you also want proteins, you want you want your dairy.
You want to be able to eat a little bit
of everything so that you can be healthy. Right, So
that's good diversity. If you want to have good fitness, right,
you want to be good health physically, then most, actually
not most, I would say all physical trainers will say
you need a diverse exercise regiment. You can't just be
(04:39):
lifting with you gotta do some cardio, you gotta do
some stretching, right, you gotta do some mental stuff like
breathing exercises as well. Right, All those different diverse things
in your fitness exercises helps you become healthy. And then,
of course, right, we always care about money. Right, you
talk to any financial person, they're going to be like,
you need to diversify your portfolio. You can't have all
(05:01):
your eggs in one basket. You can't just just put
all your stuff.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Into one thing.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Diversity is a good thing, and it's the best way
to ensure healthiness.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Why is it any different when.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
We talk about humanity in our relationships in how we
learn and who we learn about. Wouldn't diversity be another
way of healthy growth in our humanity so that we
can learn from each other, we can understand each other better,
we can speak to each other and understand each other's
circumstances better. And can't we build and create better things
(05:36):
and more efficient things if we had diversity in our humanity.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Well, that all sounds fine and dandy, but let me
just say, there are a lot of naysayers out there,
So let me represent the naysayers out there.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
All right.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
The naysayers will say.
Speaker 4 (05:54):
Well, quotas, that's bad at the expense of taking away
the opportunities for people that are in the majority predominantly.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
White, right, or sometimes this Asians gets thrown into the
discussion in higher education in terms of like, you're taking
away opportunities for other Asians and white people in education
because there's too many of them. But then now they
want to reduce the amount of people who are qualified
to get that seat at the education table.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
It's funny how you say the majority doesn't want their
seats taken away, but that majority is only a majority
for a short period of human history. In the United
States of America, actually they are the minorities, and they
took away the opportunities of the global majority in the
history of the United States.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Burn.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Yeah, so it's about perspective, right, and I think there's
some people that want the status quo. Let me just
defend some of the naysayers to an extent, whereas I
can understand where diversity for just diversity's sake, for checking
a box, or putting something in for the sake of
(07:10):
putting something in when it's maybe not the best thing.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
Right or not necessary or yeah, definitely if it's not
for the best thing, and I totally agree with that,
I understand that.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Or it's at the expense in a malicious way.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
That's true too, it is.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
It can be very detrimental. I'll give an example a
friend of ours who I will not name, who is
a director who is of Asian descent. You know, he
was telling me where he started getting more jobs hired
as a director. He started as a camera operator, and
he had been worked for twenty years in the industry,
(07:47):
and so he had earned his stripes. He was good.
He worked on a lot of major TV shows. But
when he started getting these directing jobs, there were people
that started looking at him as like, oh, he must
have been a diversity higher right. And so sometimes when
you are quickly trying to throw in diversity or fix
(08:09):
a wrong with overcorrecting, I can see why people have
some pushback to it. But the solution to that isn't
to just wipe everything out and just all of us
say diversity is bad. Like anything, it's trying to identify
the merits of diversity, but also what practices can improve
(08:33):
and what are some of the underlying issues that are
causing the discrepancy with some of the lack of diversity right.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
Right, Well, I don't think white people say the same thing.
They won't be like, oh, I just got the role
because I'm white. Oh, the CEO of that new company
got it because he's white. So why would they say that.
Why would people say, oh, they just got the role
because they're Asian or because they're black. For diversity, right
(09:01):
because or if you're a woman, or if you're a woman, right,
she just got the role because she's a woman. You
could say that about anything. When we're talking about merit,
I think merit speaks for itself. There are ways to
quantify merit. There are results that you can see from merit. Obviously,
if you have a person that gets promoted to a
(09:21):
position and that person has done absolutely nothing but they're
a specific color, then you can question that, right. I
don't think that's really happening. I don't think you have
totally unqualified people with no training absolutely at all, that
are being hired for positions that require specific training.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
I'll take directing for an example. As a female director,
the percentages even now, if you look at them, female
directors make a very small percentage of all the directors
of the top like two hundred and fifty films.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
And I think females are still about fifty percent of.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
The population, right, And you can't just say like, oh, well,
female directors aren't as good as male directors, or they're
just not as many of us. Maybe there are fewer
percentage of us going into the profession, but it's not
like twelve percent versus like eighty percent, which is what
kind of the percentages are. For film. There's more parody
over the last several years in television episodic, but certainly
(10:22):
in films that's still very very imbalanced.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
Yeah, and well, I mean, and you're talking about film,
but I had a recent conversation when we're talking about
music and we're I was trying to really promote an
Asian American group to be playable on radio, someone a
group that has had a lot of attention over the
last few years. And the executive basically told me, you know,
it's true, this group is very good. It's potentially better
(10:50):
than some of the groups that we are playing now.
But in radio, there are only so many artists that.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Are allowed to be played on the radio.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
Way if you only have twenty four hours in a
day and they have to have x amount, lets say
forty regular played artists on the docket. Right, if we
put an Asian person or group into the place of
somebody that's white, now the white count has gotten lower
because it is, in that case, a zero sum game
(11:18):
and the people in power happen to be white. Now,
this person I was talking to was not white. He
is also a minority that is also trying to champion
artists that represent other communities as well. When there are
opportunities where Asians or black or Hispanics are clearly I'm
just gonna say it better than some of these other
(11:40):
artists that are white. It is hard for the executives
and the powers to be that are trying to get
money from white organizations, white sponsorship, white run advertisements to say, hmm,
let me allow this person of color who might possibly
be better than this other artist, replace this artist, and
now we have a different color and they don't represent
(12:02):
a majority of our funders.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Right.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
My argument was, you've been neglecting other funders that are
Asian or black or Latino, that you're just happy with
your white funders. Don't you want Asian, Latino and black
funders as well going into radio? And the executive said,
you would think so, but they're not thinking that way, and.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
That goes back to the underlying systemic issues, correct, because like,
why is the playlist only forty artists on a radio station?
I understand from a commercial standpoint, good point, why only forty?
Speaker 3 (12:42):
Right?
Speaker 1 (12:43):
And there's this thing in music psychology because I actually
took a class on the psychology of music in college
where the more you hear a song, the more familiar
it is, right, And so that's why playlists are kind
of shorter.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Way.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
We live in a Spotify world now where people are
their own playlists where they could be endless. Right, But
there's seven days like, why can't you make more room
for one, two, three artists that are not in the
regular category. See, it's that mentality, Like you said, it's
a mentality, it's a bias. And for years, this is
(13:21):
the problem with the entertainment industry. We've seen this in
film right, like people would say, oh, you can't have
Asian leads, you can't have black leads because only black
people will see a film about other black people. Only
Asians would see a film about Asians. That's why it
took so long between Joylut Club and Crazy Rich Asians
(13:41):
for us to have a film. So we get to
watch all these white actors all the time. In fact,
you had somebody want to ask you what if they
were allowed to watch Crazy Asians because they weren't Asian.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
Yeah, they thought that they only Asian people could watch
Asian people. And I was like, do only white people
watch white people?
Speaker 2 (13:59):
I watch a lot of white people.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
And we've seen, based on the success of Black Panther
and even Sinners recently, which we talked about on our
last podcast, that there is an audience. If you make
a good film, people of all backgrounds will go watch
it because there's a human experience, or people like vampires
and like horror and they will go So.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
Now would even say far e steep South. I mean,
we are very fortunate to have a very diverse group
of people that have watched We know that over two
million people have watched our film. I don't know how
many more we'll watch with PBS, but that's a whole
another topic.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
That we are going to approach in our next podcast.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
But my comment was, you know our film.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
We first thought when I first made this movie, and
we were making this movie, I thought, well, are people
going to watch this? Because do people care about Chinese
Americans in this country? We're less than Chinese Americans are
about three percent of the population in this country. Maybe less, right,
only if you add up all the different ethnic groups
within Chinese. Right, we're about three percent. So what's going
(15:07):
to happen with the other ninety seven percent? Are any
of the other ninety seven percent going to watch this movie?
And the answer is yes.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
In the case of going back to female directors, the
discrepancy has been consistent over the last couple decades or
more actually from the beginning of cinema. So if female
enroment in film schools are increasing and you see more
people in the profession. I haven't even gotten into being
(15:34):
a female composer because I'm in that camp as well.
You can see it. That's where a need arises, where
you want to create pathways for female directors, female composers
to be noticed who are just as good, maybe even
better in many cases than some of their male counterparts.
(15:56):
Because a lot of times it's not because people are
being latantly sexist or racist. And I think that's where
a lot of this anti DEI feeling comes from. Is
people don't want to think the racist or sexist right,
and so if you remove that out of the equation,
you're like, well, we're just going to value everybody. Then
(16:17):
people aren't confronted with the historical imbalances of the past.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
Right.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
So like for women, we have just had a biased
against us. We've taken the race out of that right,
it's just gender. And just think about the history of
our civilization. It has been a male dominated society. You know,
women were just at home taking care of babies. That's
kind of how we were looked at. In fact, in
(16:43):
our new documentary Who's Afraid of Virginia Wing, I'm going
to be spending some time talking about gender roles, especially
in the mid nineteen hundreds, and how that's kind of
progressed because the bottom line is women have not been
on equal playing field as men, because again it's a
subconscious bias a lot of times. That's why we need
(17:06):
to bring attention sometimes to these issues. Now, I understand
when people are like, we're only going to work with
women and we hate men and we don't like that.
I mean, I can see why there's some pushback right right,
Like that's where people get all crazy the opposite end.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
So I think what we're kind of saying is DEI diversity, inclusion, equity.
Those are not bad things, but just as other things
in life, when things are overdone, it can become bad.
Just like ice cream is not bad, but that's all
you're gonna eat, and you're just gonna have ice cream,
and you only force ice cream down your throat because
(17:45):
ice cream is good, and we haven't had enough ice
cream in a long long time. We just got to
force ice cream down. That's not good, right, And that's
kind of what I feel like DEI had become. So
now we've won the polar opposite and say, oh man,
we had too much. Yeah, we had too much ice cream.
We're gonna not have any more ice cream ever again
because that was so bad.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Right, And I understand if people are upset just because
they have a flavor, they don't think that belongs there,
Like baseball net at aspect, don't.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Talk about baseball.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
That's my favorite flavor, and people go, why is.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
That flavor in there? They don't even deserve to be there.
It does, I know.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
I'm just because it's awesome and because people are awesome.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Diversity needs to happen.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
That's why the like ginger ice cream.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
I don't know about that. I hate ginger. Why did
somebody event this exotic flavor of ginger ice cream? Hey,
really doesn't belong there. I've also had garlic ice cream.
Really shouldn't be an ice cream flavor, yet somebody put
that in there.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
For diversity's sake. It's in there.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
But there's something for everybody. And here's the other thing
that people don't realize. When we're talking about diversity and inclusion,
it's not just about gender or race. It's also a
lot of times about disability that people don't realize. So
there was recent reports in the news this past week
where some of the anti DEI funding that got cut
(19:15):
was for research for people that are hearing impaired, and
so there's a lot of research helping to improve people's hearing.
I think most people would agree that helping more people
who are losing their hearing, who have lost hear their hearing,
is a good thing, right, right, Because it's not even
(19:35):
people who are just born with hearing disability. It's some
of us who may be getting older, or parents who
have lost their hearing, or people that are veterans or
who have been in combat zones. Right, And so all
of a sudden, if you just cut out everything under
this blanket term DEI, you're not really understanding that diverse
(20:00):
city equity and inclusion actually includes a lot of people,
well qualified people, well qualified people, and it's not always
just a matter about race. It's not just about gender identity.
It's like it's encompassed to so much more than that.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
So now we run the risk of cutting out people
that are well qualified and not allowing people that are
well qualified to have an opportunity also simply because.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Of race, it's also cutting out opportunities to help different
populations thrive and finding out like maybe there are some
similar things to health disparities between Black latinos Asians. And
if you say, like, we're only going to fund everything
that is encompassing everybody, and we're not going to fund
(20:47):
anything that's specific to an ethnic group, It's not about
discrimination or race or favoring. It's about looking at a
population and going there are differences in our physiological makeup.
There may be differences of where we are geographically that
we need to look at it.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
And I think one thing we don't talk about is experiences.
There there is undeniable that people of different ethnicities have
different experiences. Why would you not want different experiences into
your office in corporate spaces? Why wouldn't you want them
different experiences in your education spaces? Why wouldn't you want
them in your restaurants?
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Right?
Speaker 2 (21:26):
For different flavor?
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Why wouldn't you want that in anything with different people
with different experiences to add to the overall culture.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Salid Bowl of America.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Exactly, my salad bowl exactly.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Why would we want just.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Greens in a salad bowl? Right?
Speaker 3 (21:42):
Why wouldn't we want all the different colors that are
and encompass a nice, healthy, beautiful salad. Why wouldn't you
want that? Or why would you just want all carrots
or all tomatoes or all lettuce, not even like spinach
and arugula.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
But just iceberg letters. Just eat iceberg let not icebread.
Cove right.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
Getting rid of bias has separates you out of your
salad bowl, put you back in the salad bar, into
your compartments, and leave you separated where people can just
look at you and wonder what should.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
We do with you?
Speaker 1 (22:22):
I like that analogy doesn't work. I don't know, but
we'll go with it. I think the other thing that
people are forgetting is diversity isn't just skin color, right,
And as we mentioned gender, like there is diversity in
regions like you said, experiences, right, And so I think
(22:44):
the more we can talk about diversity, not just in
these very limited categories. And yes, for some of the
initiatives that we've talked about in terms of wanting to
give pathways to women which may have been there before
or they've been overlooked, whereas the same ten directors that
are always guys are always being suggested for films like Hey,
(23:09):
maybe you should try Greta Gerwig. She might make you
a fantastic barbie film where it might have been a
guy would have been like Steven Spielberg's Barbie.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Inside Barbie and Ken Right and Ken Barbie and.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
They meet et, which would be kind of a cool
movie too. But there is this need for kind of
opening people's eyes that you said, there's more to the
salad bar than just lettuce. And because a lot of
people just have unconscious blinders and bias, they don't see it.
(23:51):
I have friends who will say like, oh, you know,
I didn't have any problems getting that job, or I
see women all the time working in these jobs. I'm like, yeah,
but do you really take a step back and see
just because one woe when you know is a really
good producer, doesn't mean there's a lot of women producers.
I had a whole social media conversation with somebody about this.
They're like, I hire women. It's like, well, just because
(24:13):
you hire women doesn't mean everybody hires women.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
It's like the person who stood up in one of
our screenings when they found out about the Chinese Exclusion Act,
this white gentleman. He's like, I never excluded anybody. It's like, no,
you never personally excluded anybody. But the American government excluded
the Chinese from coming into this country and becoming citizens. Yeah,
(24:40):
so it did happen. So going back to the idea,
the pushback comes from people don't want to look in
the mirror and realize that we have unconscious biases and
that we need to sometimes open people's eyes to some
of these discrepancies.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
But I hope what it does happen, though, is that
people that have taken DEI to the ultra ultra levels
where it is now more combative than inviting. I hope
it does open their eyes and our eyes to say, like, hmmm,
at what point is going too far? I look at
it as I've been doing a lot of boxing lately,
(25:19):
and and I think about it as you know, I
think there's a lot of people in the majority white
people that feel like they've been they've been kind, they've
been nice, and then all of a sudden, they're getting
people are boxing, they're hitting them, and they're like, wait
a minute, I'm not trying to cause any problems. I'm
just a white guy that's trying to do my thing
and trying to be nice. And then and then all
(25:40):
of a sudden, people are boxing, They're hitting you from
all the side saying you're white, you're bad, You're bad, and.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
You're putting up your defenses. You're putting your.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
Hands and you're blocking, you're blocking, and you're getting pounded,
and you're trying to defend yourself, and at some point
you're going to be like, I can't I can't defend anymore.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
I gotta start punching. I can't just keep defending. I
gotta go on the offensive.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
And I think we've gotten to the point where a
lot of people that used to be on our side
or could have been on our side, have felt so
threatened that now they've taken the opposite extremes.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Now I'm just gonna keep pounding.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
I'm just gonna keep on punching, even now if I'm winning,
I'm just gonna keep on punching because I am sick
and tired of getting pounded on. I think there's a
lesson to be learned from that, where, Okay, there's a
common middle ground that makes sense, there's a middle ground
that says like, hey, we're not doing enough and doing
way too much, And there's a part in the middle
(26:30):
which I think we should all advocate for, saying, hey,
there's beauty in everything.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
If we go.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
Overboard in one end, you're not going to have that
beauty anymore. And if you go underboard on the opposite end,
you're not gonna have anything at all of the either.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Yeah, and I think a lot of times why people
also feel aggression towards quote unquote DEI policies is I
have a lot of friends who are white who grew
up poor, and so they said, I didn't have it easy.
Now they don't recognize certain things that they may have
a privilege in. But by and heard, they've had a
(27:06):
tough life. And you know, if you dress them up
in a suit and walk them into the room, they
would maybe be respected more in certain things. But that's
not how they see themselves, right, Like they had the struggle,
they grew up poor, they didn't have any and they
and they may see people that are successful like African
American athletes who are making millions of dollars, or you
(27:27):
see doctors and lawyers that are that are of Asian descent.
You know, they may see people that are of color
that they see successful and they're like, that's not me.
So I don't know, I don't understand why do they
need more help no one's helping me, right, And so
I think part of that is against socio economics. So
in talking about diversity, it's not just about race always,
(27:50):
and I think that's why people get upset, is is
that it's it is sociate economic.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
Yeah, so I think, I mean, after this discussion, just
thinking about this for so long, is I mean, I
don't think getting rid of DEI is the answer. But
maybe making DEI better, making it more authentic, making it
more fine, fine tuning it so that DEI benefits everyone.
I think that's the answer. Is it's making DEI work better,
(28:16):
not getting rid of it.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
That's well said, and I think there's a point to
be made in terms of maybe we need to kind
of separate some of these ideas of diversity and inclusion
because it has become a catch all and for the
better and for the worse, each industry in each community
has kind of different needs.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
Diversity and humanity. That's what we need.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
We need a bigger salad bar and there's room for
everybody until they close the sup plantation.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
No, that's so sad.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
We could unpack this all day. But our next topic,
we're going to have a next episode is now the
death of PBS. Tune into the next episode where we
unpack the impact of that and where do we go next.
This has been Love Discovery and follow us on social
(29:10):
media at L d D podcast.
Speaker 4 (29:17):
I discovered Discover a lit candy.
Speaker 3 (29:22):
Do what
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