June 18, 2025 • 48 mins
In this episode of Lucid Cafe, I talk with financial advisor and author Elizabeth Husserl about her new book The Power of Enough: Finding Joy in Your Relationship with Money. We explore how our mindset around money shapes not only our finances, but also our sense of self-worth, well-being, and freedom.
Elizabeth offers a refreshing alternative to the endless pursuit of more. She shares how stepping off the treadmill of comparison and accumulation can help us redefine wealth on our own terms — and finally feel good about what we have.
In this episode, Elizabeth discusses:
- Cultural ideas regarding wealth and money
- Redefining money and wealth
- Trust
- Understanding your relationship with money
- Money as a technology
- Financial DNA
- Feeling satisfied and fulfilled
- Opening a dialogue with money
- Wendy shares an example of an unhealthy money story
- Meaning
- The abundance-scarcity loop
website: elizabethhusserl.com
________
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Wendy (00:01):
This is Wendy Halley, and you're listening to Lucid Cafe.
(00:31):
You know what just hit me? It'sJune. I haven't gotten used to
writing 2025, and we're almosthalfway through the year. And
yet, here we are mid June withanother episode of Lucid Cafe.
Thanks for joining me. I wonderif there's a podcast award for
(00:52):
the best introduction to anepisode because if there is, I'd
probably get it for this one.I'm clearly really good at this.
Speaking of time, guess whatelse snuck up on me? Would you
believe that this season iswinding down?
There's either one or twoepisodes of season seven left.
(01:15):
What is happening? You know I'vebitched about time before. I I
won't bore you with my time isspeeding up rant. Instead, I
want to give my sincere thanksto everyone who listened to the
last episode with my friendClaire about my book.
Turned out to be a surprisinglypopular episode and it appears
(01:37):
as though people are buying mybook, which I'm absolutely
thrilled about and grateful for.So thank you for that. Okay.
Let's shift gears and get totoday's episode. Do you feel
overwhelmed and intimidated bymoney?
Dragged down by the complexityand abstraction of it? Do you
(01:58):
often feel lack even though youmake a good living and have a
lot of material things? My guestElizabeth Husserl offers a way
to reshape your mindset abouthow you relate to money. In our
conversation and in her newbook, The Power of Enough
Finding Joy in Your Relationshipwith Money, Elizabeth shares how
(02:19):
our financial mindset influencesour well-being and how
entrenched financial systems canblock our pursuit of true
happiness. She also shares someperspectives in our conversation
that may surprise you and areright up my alley.
Elizabeth is a registeredinvestment advisor
representative, financialadvisor, and co founder of Peak
(02:42):
three sixty Wealth Management, aboutique wealth planning firm.
She holds a BS in economics fromTulane University and an MA in
East West psychology from theCalifornia Institute of Integral
Studies where she has alsotaught as an adjunct professor.
(03:02):
Her experience spans nonprofitwork throughout The Americas,
and she is a highly sought afterspeaker having led workshops at
major tech companies, includingAirbnb, Unity, and Google.
Please enjoy my conversationwith Elizabeth Husserall.
(03:23):
Elizabeth, thanks so much forjoining me.
Elizabeth (03:26):
Wendy, it is such a pleasure to be here.
Wendy (03:28):
Well, I mean, I don't know if anybody's going to be
interested in this topic at all,because it's just it's not
something that ever comes up forpeople.
Elizabeth (03:39):
Can you imagine?
Wendy (03:40):
I know. Let me start by saying that I've had the copy I
received of your book on myreception area table here at my
wellness center for some weeksnow. And I lost count of how
many people photographed thecover and then decided to buy it
just based on the cover and thenmaybe glimpsing through some of
(04:03):
it. So, I think you've hit onsomething here. Yeah.
Yeah. So, what you've done is,in your book, is you're
encouraging us to look at moneyin a different way. Before we
get into that different way, I'dlove to hear your perspective on
how you would describe how mostor maybe all of us see money in
(04:29):
our society, in our culture.
Elizabeth (04:31):
Yeah. Thank you, Wendy. I mean, that's such a
great question, and it reallyhits to the core of the problem
that I'm working through in thebook, which is why is it that we
have so much and yet we feel sopoor? And why is it that we
think money and wealth are thesame thing? And it's a problem
that I've been chewing on for,you know, I would say I was
(04:52):
gonna say twenty years, butalmost thirty years by now in
working with people in theirrelationship to money and
working in differentcommunities, different cultures,
and really being as like, why isit that we think wealth and
money are the same thing?
And how does that keep us onthis rat race and this hustle of
trying to accumulate more andfeeling scarcity and really not
(05:13):
just able to enjoy wealth as astate of well-being that we have
access to at all times. And sowhen you were talking about the
experience of people picking upthe book, I feel like I got
tears in my eyes, because itreally does represent a passion
project and a journey of thirtyyears in my own life, and I want
to share that journey withothers for them to take their
(05:35):
journey into their relationshipwith money, clear up that
interference so that we canexperience wealth, not just
accumulate it, can we experiencewealth.
Wendy (05:46):
Wonderful. Okay. So that takes us into because most of us
will equate both words, moneyand wealth. Yeah. If I have a
lot of money, I am wealthy.
If I don't have a lot of money,I am not wealthy. So how do you
differentiate the two?
Elizabeth (06:03):
Yeah. Well, I mean, that's that is the core belief,
and the antidote to it is reallyjust first recognizing there's a
difference. Right? And we andand redefining the terms and the
language that we use to talkabout money and redefining the
terms and the language that weuse to talk about wealth. Right?
So we can talk about money interms of its functions, right,
(06:25):
its use. It is a tool, much liketechnology is a tool. Our phones
are a tool. It is it is atechnology that we use for
exchange, and it is a technologythat has some that has come to
replace trust in some capacity,and that's where it starts to
get confusing and hazy and icky.We're like, wait a second.
Why is my trustworthiness basedon my credit score? Right? And
(06:46):
we can talk and unpack that alittle bit more. But I think the
key piece is that money has arole. And to some extent, even
though this is hard for somepeople to stomach, its role can
be neutral.
Right? We we we rather scapegoatmoney and get really angry at it
and get really upset at it. Butwhat I tell people is that money
is a tool. Our experience ofwealth in the framework of how
(07:08):
we define wealth connected towell-being is a state that we
get to co create and co design.And I think as people and
humans, we have the right andresponsibility to start to
readdress, redefine, reexperience wealth, not just in
our own lives, but as a society.
And I think that's how we startto make some lasting impact and
(07:31):
transformative change in theworld is separating the two.
Wendy (07:35):
Yeah. And that's a novel idea, at least from where I sit
over here. I would love to hearmore of your thoughts on trust,
because that is so huge. Huge.And I think we all we all
struggle with trust in varyingways, but particularly around
(07:56):
our financial well-being.
Elizabeth (07:59):
Yeah. And so, you know, let's do a little thought
exercise and let's go back intime to when potentially our
ancestor lived in smallercommunities or even think of
yourself in a community you'repart of. Right? A work
community, a school community, afriend community, a dance
community, whatever you're partof. And when you think of
yourself in that community, dopeople trust you because they
(08:19):
know how much money than youhave in your bank account?
No. They probably don't knowbecause we don't talk about
money. Do they trust you basedon the ways you have showed up
in the relationship? Right?Usually, it's that.
Once we build intimacy withpeople and relationships based
on who we are and how we showup, how we give and receive,
trust, right, is rooted in itscorrect place, which is that
(08:41):
core stone of relationship. Butin our modern culture, where we
don't at times build thoselevels of intimate
relationships, we are goingthrough a pandemic of
loneliness. So in our modernculture, when we're feeling
lonely and isolated, moneystarts to replace intimacy when
it comes to trust. And that'swhen it doesn't feel good.
(09:05):
Right?
And that's where we're like,wait a second. My credit score
speaks volumes about me, butwho's to say? Maybe I'm going
through a really hard time, andmaybe I had to default on a
loan. That doesn't necessarilymean I'm trustworthy. What were
the situations that caused that?
Right? And so and and when wedon't have the relationships
with people, then we lose otherbarometers to build trust. And
(09:27):
that's, again, where moneyreally starts to have all these
emotions and feelings in ourlives. And so a really important
piece well, and I'll I'll letyou speak because I I can see
actually, I'll stop there.
Wendy (09:37):
What you're saying is so poignant because in the absence
of connection with others, weplace all this pressure then on
money to fill that void.
Elizabeth (09:49):
Yeah.
Wendy (09:51):
That's not really fair or actually how things work, right?
I mean Yeah. It's like a setupfor disappointment consistently
because money is not that thing.
Elizabeth (10:03):
Right. And Wendy, you were speaking to I wanna say
what triggers most people in mywork with them, where there's a
resistance. Right? We're like,oh, but it is easier to
scapegoat money. It's easier tofeel angry at my relationship to
money, how it's not showing up,how it's complicated.
Right? How there's not enough topay for my bills. Like, all
(10:25):
these and these are experiencesthat I have had personally where
I'm like, shaking my hand. And Ispeak to them in my book. Right?
I get super vulnerable and say,hey. My first conversation with
money was really freaking hard.And money kinda told me,
Elizabeth, back off. You'reyou're strangling me. Right?
And it was such a wake upmoment, Wendy, when we start to
realize, oh, what am I actuallyangry about? Where where am I
(10:47):
actually feeling lack andpoverty and scarcity? And for
sure, it can still be within therealm or or slice of financial
stability. Right? Doesn'tnecessarily mean I have
everything solved.
But when I start to get reallyclear about what is my role in
creating the financial dynamicI'm in, Right? I'm not trying to
play a victim here. I'm tryingto get really clear on how am I
(11:10):
creating the situation, what arethe list of questions I have
that I need help answering, whatpertains to money, and what
doesn't. Right? When I first satdown and I'll say this.
When I first sat down and had myconversation with money we'll
talk about what that is. So whenI sat down and had my
conversation with money, Irealized that after I told it
how angry I was and how it's notshowing up and shaking my fist,
(11:34):
and Money responded saying,Elizabeth, stop strangling me. I
need some space. My firstreaction, Wendy, was like, Oh,
I've had this conversationbefore with boyfriends. This is
not the first time someone hastold me they need a little bit
of space in a relationship withme.
Even with girlfriends. Right?There's people in my life where
I like maybe I have anxiousattachment. I like holding on
tight. Being needy.
Totally. Totally. And I waslike, okay. Money, you're not
(11:56):
the first one to tell me this. Iknow this is a pattern.
What are you trying to tell me?And when we went back and forth
in this conversation, I waslike, oh, I'm trying to start a
private practice after gradschool. No one's taught me how
to be an entrepreneur. I have noidea what I'm doing. I feel like
I'm flailing.
Let me just be human and be okaywith that. I'm doing something
that someone has not ever taughtme how to do. I'm taking a
(12:19):
financial risk, and it feelsreally insecure. And once I gave
myself permission just to bewith where I was in my financial
journey, in my career, I waslike, okay. Money, I'm not gonna
waste any more time being angryat you.
Let me get super clear on what Ineed to learn, how I'm gonna
learn it, who in my world maybehas done this successfully so I
could talk to them. And then youand I, Money, are gonna create a
(12:41):
business plan so I can get superclear what do I need, right, to
make this work? How much do Ihave to ask for you? Why is it
so uncomfortable to chargepeople my full fee? Right?
Now that it's a differentconversation. And then I started
to take responsibility for theways that I was wasting a lot of
time and energy in scapegoatingmoney. When money was like, hey,
I do wanna help, but whatpertains to you and you building
(13:05):
your business? And then tell mewhat is that you need me to do.
And we don't do that.
Right? We don't takeresponsibility for the ways that
we're creating some of ourfinancial situation. And I know
a lot of people, Wendy, willtell me, but wait a second. But
I got fired. Right?
I got laid off. There's a lot ofinsecurity in the world right
now when it comes to money. Allof that is right, but what we
can't let ourselves do is getstuck in that scarcity cycle
(13:30):
because then all of us start allparts of us start to shut down.
We all know what this feelslike, and we can't access the
other areas of wealth in ourlife that can help us see new
possibilities, experience newopportunities, see things from a
beginner's mind that can helpmove the needle in building
(13:51):
wealth in our lives.
Wendy (13:52):
What you're making me think of as you're talking is
that, first of all, the wholeidea of having a conversation
with money is brilliant. And thefact that you're talking about
talking with money suggests thatit's a two way street, whereas
where most of us sit, we're nothaving conversations with money.
I don't even know if we realizewe can do that.
Elizabeth (14:13):
Right.
Wendy (14:13):
And I'd like to get to that a little bit later in the
conversation. But for now,what's really striking me is
this idea of how much personalpower then we end up giving to
money when it probably doesn'twant our power. It's just this
neutral tool like you weresaying before. And yet, who
(14:34):
doesn't feel powerless
Elizabeth (14:35):
when
Wendy (14:36):
they look at their bank account balance or they get a
big bill or they lose their jobor whatever. And then of course,
why wouldn't you blame money?Damn it.
Elizabeth (14:47):
Right.
Wendy (14:47):
Yeah. Let me get Here
Elizabeth (14:49):
go again. This is the pattern. Right? Right. A 100%.
And I think what's reallyimportant is that our
relationship to money can be afoundation of connection despite
the fact that money and peopleare cyclical. Right? Like, I can
have a foundational relationshipwith my husband and not expect
(15:11):
him to wake up happy every day.If I did expect that, I'd be
wildly disappointed. Right?
Or my daughter who's a teenager.But the connection is what
allows me to stay in intimaterelationship with my family
members even through the cyclesof emotion. So the same thing
applies to money. Money iscyclical. Economics is cyclical.
(15:34):
Right? If you look at anypicture of the stock market, it
will go up and it will go down.So the the the cycles of
economics are growth, recession,depression. Growth, recession,
depression. Now I love words andlanguage.
Right? Recess. It's literallyrecession is recess, so take a
break. Depression is depressed.Take your foot off the pedal.
(15:55):
Something isn't working, right,when we go through economic
recession and depression. Andthat's actually where we're able
to lean into the humancreativity to redefine and
redesign things from a differentangle. So if we allow our
relationship to money to be thefoundational connection and it
(16:16):
to also have its own cycles,then we're less thrown off our
core, thrown off center whenmoney goes up and down. Right?
It will go up and down.
We breathe in and out, and Ithink that's a piece, Wendy.
People really love money in onedirection, which is up. And
imagine if your partner said, Ionly love you if you're up, and
(16:39):
you're like, well, wait asecond. What happens when I'm
down? Right?
And so part of it is when we putit in this comical terms, we're
like, of course, I wouldn't wantthat in my partner. And so the
same thing. When we start tolook at a relationship to mine
and be like, let's just treat itas a relationship, the
connection can be stable, butthe movement can be cyclical.
Wendy (16:58):
What you're talking about, I've become intimately
aware of as a business owner forthe last ten years, a small
business owner, the ebb and flowof income. Yeah. Which is the
polar opposite of having asteady job where you're
especially if you're on salary,and you get the same amount
(17:19):
every two weeks or whatever. Andyou don't experience that ebb
and flow. So not directlyanyway, unless it's like your
investments or that kind ofthing, or you lose your job.
But it's it gives almost theillusion that it's gonna be a
constant. And then when it goesaway, it's probably even more
devastating.
Elizabeth (17:40):
Yeah. Yeah. And this is really important, Wendy. It's
like, again, we're not taughtabout this in school or in
college. Right?
This idea of what is our what isour relationship to money. And
so to your point, my dad was a wtwo. Right? There's two ways we
earn. We're either a w two, andit's a steady paycheck ish,
right, or you're clocking hoursfor a steady hourly, or you're
(18:00):
an entrepreneur, and it'scyclical.
Right? And you build thatpipeline of clienteles or
services. And I had been raisedby a w two, and so the paycheck
always came. So there's asteadiness to it. But I knew
actually, I didn't know thatbecause I didn't know the
distinction back then.
I'm like, I wanna work formyself. But I no one had taught
me that was cyclical. I'm like,no wonder money and I were
(18:21):
struggling. Because I was like,wow. Yeah.
This is feeling super insecure,and it's very different than
what I grew up with. Right? Andso, again, if we were taught
this, then we'd be able to be,like, almost like our relational
styles. Right? Like, what's yourlove language?
It's like, what's your moneylanguage? Are you someone who
thrives better with consistency?Maybe a w two path is better for
(18:41):
you. Are you someone who thrivesmore with freedom? Maybe an
entrepreneur path.
You know what I mean? And sobut, again, if we were to speak
of it in that kind of moreneutral language, it's really
about understanding our moneypersonality and making decisions
where you and money can feelaligned and as if you were
allies and each other's bestfriend.
Wendy (19:01):
I love that. You know, it's very shamanic what you're
talking about.
Elizabeth (19:05):
A 100%.
Wendy (19:06):
Yeah. Very Yeah. That relational perspective of being
in relationship with.
Elizabeth (19:12):
Yeah.
Wendy (19:13):
A friend of mine, Linda, she came up with this workshop
that she and I and anotherfriend co facilitated. It was
for small business owners aboutconnecting with the spirit of
your business.
Elizabeth (19:25):
Yeah.
Wendy (19:26):
And giving it personhood that it has its own
intelligence. Right?
Elizabeth (19:31):
Yeah.
Wendy (19:32):
But that's such a different way of looking at
having a business. It maybe it'sa little out there for a lot of
folks. But No.
Elizabeth (19:38):
Can can we just go there for a second, guys?
Wendy (19:40):
Much. Yeah.
Elizabeth (19:41):
I don't necessarily share this with all clients.
Could not all clients let mehave this conversation, but I
very much treat money as aspirit animal. Like, have I have
many spirit animals and manyguides, and money is one of
them. And literally, when I Ihave money's on my altar. I have
ritual with money.
Right? I very much treat it asan energetic presence in my
(20:03):
life, and ultimately has becomea mirror and a guide. And so I
100% agree with you. I had ateacher. I worked very closely
for many years with MalodomaSomai.
He was a West African elder. Hewould speak I know
Wendy (20:14):
his name. Yeah.
Elizabeth (20:15):
Yeah. He would speak about you know, my husband and I
worked with him for over adecade, and he would teach us
spiritual technologies. And sothere is a way in which money is
a technology. We can't over giveits power. Right?
It's almost like giving my phonetoo much power to define me
because I'm, like, stuck onsocial media and likes. You each
(20:37):
technology has its wisdom in itsshadow. Right? But if we are
able to be nimble and meet thetechnology as a peer, then it
can be a very potent mirror intoco creating reality together.
Well
Wendy (20:54):
said. Mhmm. I mean, all the things that you're saying
today, and you bring up in yourbook really point to the
deficits in our culturalworldview, right, which is and
forgive me folks for talkingabout this again, but the
cultural worldview of colonialmind that our culture is based
(21:14):
on, right, which is aboutownership of the earth and its
resources and manipulating theenvironment to make it the way
we want it to be and and peopleas well. And then all of the
things that come from that, likemoney and success, the American
dream, and every man forhimself, and it's okay if you
(21:35):
step on people to get to whereyou need to be kind of thing.
It's it's the opposite ofindigenous mind, is relational.
You're really inviting us to bein relationship with
Elizabeth (21:47):
these
Wendy (21:48):
concepts that I don't know if we ever really think
about.
Elizabeth (21:52):
Yeah. And I'm inviting all of us to
participate. Right? I have feetin lots of different worlds. I
work in finance, and I'm deeplyspiritual and a ritualist.
Right? So I have feet in manydifferent worlds. It's equally
important, and my two kind ofvalues are depth and wealth. And
(22:14):
when I'm working with clientswho have a lot of money, I'm
really bringing that depthperspective. And I'm working
with people in my spiritualretreat workshops.
I'm really bringing in thatwealth perspective. Because I
think the more we can navigatethese different worlds, right,
the more we can really harnessthat power of creativity. And
especially for people who areculturally creative humans,
(22:39):
channel as much money as you cantowards the things you believe
in. And it requires workingthrough the interference that we
have and judgment. I mean, I'mthe first to have judgment,
right, around people use moneyfor evil, and people do and it's
true.
People do a lot of crazy thingsthat I do not agree with.
Wendy (22:56):
But Yeah. Have no idea what you're talking about,
especially right
Elizabeth (22:58):
now as
Wendy (22:59):
we're recording Oh my goodness.
Elizabeth (23:01):
But here's the thing. You know, and I can't tell you
that is a big part of myconversation clients right now.
You know, a lot of people areangry, and rightfully so. This
is not the country I believe in.Right?
And yet, I think what's reallyimportant is to let's not waste
time blaming money because wescapegoat the real change. Let's
(23:24):
continue to be the humans webelieve in and use all the
resources at our fingertips tomake that change come into
reality. Right? And so I've hadto dig deep and continue to
promote my work in a moment thatat times feels bleak because
that's how I participate inchanging the reality. I've had
to have really goodconversations with clients to be
(23:46):
like, maybe this is not the yearto look for a new investment.
Maybe this is the year to domore charitable giving than
we've ever done because thoseorganizations need it most.
Right? Because funding is beingcut. So it's like and I say
that, and I get chills in mybody because we do have agency.
Maybe this is a year that I'mgonna take a spending sabbatical
on this because I guess what?
I'm gonna commit to livingwithin my means and get off the
(24:09):
rat race of feeling like I needmore money to feel happy. I
mean, I could sit here all daylong and spout ideas of how to
do it, but let's takeresponsibility for owning that
money and wealth are differentthings and for taking the
journey to understand what doesthat mean for each of us.
Wendy (24:26):
So that makes me think about how much we've attached
survival to money. I mean,because I know in fallow times,
it feels like it's life or deathkind of I that's dramatic. It's
not that bad, but
Elizabeth (24:39):
it's But it does feel that way. You're not wrong.
Yeah. We I mean, you say that Iknow exactly what that feels
like in my body. We all feel it.
Wendy (24:45):
Right. Oh, that that's good. Okay. Because I was being
dramatic, but I guess not. Butit the fact that it's equated so
closely with with survival
Elizabeth (24:56):
Mhmm.
Wendy (24:56):
Is like a prison. It keeps you in this little box of,
like, I just have to I have toearn x amount of dollars, or I
have to find a way to get moremoney. Or if I don't, horrible,
horrible things are gonnahappen. I'll be homeless. I'll
be with I'll be unable to feedmyself and my family.
(25:17):
Whatever. Mean, of the worstcase scenario things come into
our minds. Yeah. So I guess thatstuff runs so deep, which leads
me to think about this otherreally important piece in your
book that you talk about, whichis financial DNA. And my
understanding is it's the kindof cultural beliefs and the
(25:39):
familial beliefs, the ancestralbeliefs that we acquire around
money and wealth, and how theyimpact us unconsciously, I would
suggest, right?
So can you talk about that some?
Elizabeth (25:55):
Of course, and would take it even back, like, when
you were first talking aboutthis, right, the imagery I was
getting is that and MichaelEster talks about in his book,
The Scarcity Brain. Even beyondthe last generation of
ancestors, for centuries, wehave been wired to seek for
(26:18):
survival. And so let's justagain accept that as a neutral
fact. That's how we're wired,and it's how our brain keeps us
safe. So thank you, Mind Center,for helping us stay safe and
surviving and imagining where amI going to get calories, where
am I going get shelter, how am Igoing to stay protected.
That is just part of ourorganisms to stay safe, to also
(26:39):
reproduce, all the things. Andso that's way past kind of the
ancestors that we know. Then ourown stage of ancestors have
their stories. Their stories onmoney successes, money failures,
scarcity, where they feltwealth, where they felt poverty,
etcetera. I do find it'simportant to the extent that you
can, if you know your ancestors,to take a moment and look back,
(27:01):
not necessarily with theintention of needing to heal
their journey, their journey wastheir journey, you're not
responsible for their journey.
But when you sit down and youlook at the past, your money
story and their money story, youcan start to get some important
nuggets and make some importantdecisions of what from that
story do you potentially wannatake on, pass on to the next
(27:22):
generation as financial legacyand inheritance. Which parts of
those story no longer serve you?So a big reason of why I wrote
this book was because I wascommitted to not passing
scarcity on to my teenagedaughter. Right? And the reality
is, as I mentioned before, youknow, I grew up with two working
(27:42):
parents.
My dad in particular was aW-two. He was a physician. We
had more than enough to pay forour bills, to pay for school. We
got to travel to see my familyin Colombia. You know, I grew up
financially stable.
And yet why was there a sense ofscarcity in my home? That was
always what confused me. I'mlike, it just doesn't add up. We
(28:04):
have what we need. We can go tothe bookstore and buy books for
the summertime, right, on as Iget on an airplane to travel
internationally and see myfamily in Colombia.
But why is it that we feel tenseand scarcity? And I started to
trace it back to my grandfather,who had been a survivor in the
Second World War because he wasan Austrian Jew and had to flee.
And my story persecution is veryshared with a lot of people.
(28:26):
Persecution, slavery, these aresadly the chapters of human
society that have marked us. Andso my grandfather was always
preparing for World War three,right?
And my father was raised withinthat scarcity, and he just no
one taught him to ever addressit, so it got passed on to me.
And no one taught me to addressit, but I started but my mom was
(28:47):
a therapist, and so she wouldhave us make these family
meetings. I'm like, okay, how dotherapy and scarcity come
together? We start to haveinquiry. What is this about?
Wendy (28:55):
Way. Really.
Elizabeth (28:55):
Yeah. My mom was a therapist. She didn't start
asking me these questions.Although in chapter eight, I do
quote her where she wouldbecause she didn't come from a
lot. She was the the oldest ofsix in Columbia.
And, like, my grandma made alltheir clothes, and they shared
one car, and they would pile inbefore seat belts. Right? It was
not safe, but they were happytogether in, like, my
grandfather's little Renault inColombia. So she taught me to
(29:20):
when I would when I would eat ameal, to eat to the point that I
felt satisfied and not overfull. Right?
She was like because they had toshare a lot. So eat until you're
satisfied. Don't feel like shewasn't it didn't come from a
place of scarcity. Like, oh, youcan only have so much, but,
like, learn to feel in my bodywhen was I satisfied to know
when there was enough. Like,little did she know how much
(29:42):
that was a core piece of what Iwas gonna be teaching the world.
Right? And so and yet herscarcity, Wendy, was that she
had the same loss of homeland asmy grandfather, because she
didn't want to stay in TheStates. She wanted to go back to
Colombia for fifty years. Sowhere have I felt scarcity in my
wealth map has been aroundbelonging. Right?
(30:02):
My grandfather lost hishomeland, my mom lost her
homeland. I was raised in TheStates as first generation
within a very Latin community. Inever quite felt like I
belonged. Always felt like I waslike the ugly duckling who
didn't look like anyone else inthe South. So all these things
started to shape where I feltpoor and scarce.
And so I'm like, oh, got it.Wealth is so much more broader
(30:27):
than financial stability.Because guess what? It was
definitely not buying ushappiness. It was not buying us
emotional stability.
Right? My parents loved eachother, they loved me, but there
was tension. And so I think whenI started to understand what had
shaped me, I can now lookforward and make different
decisions for what I pass on tomy daughter.
Wendy (30:48):
Well, thanks mom for planting that seed. I mean,
really? Yeah, how many how manypeople have that level of
insight?
Elizabeth (30:56):
Yeah,
Wendy (30:57):
that's amazing. I mean, that's really amazing. Yeah. It
does seem to be that thisfinancial DNA is so deeply
embedded that you don't evenrealize what's influencing you.
Right?
Elizabeth (31:09):
Yeah. And so let's tie it back to what we were
talking about before, Wendy, ofthe scarcity brain. Because
again, if we had eons ofancestors having the scarcity
brain to seek for survival,thank you very much ancestors,
if we're talking, Wendy, ourancestors survived. If we
wouldn't be talking, theywouldn't be. Good job.
Thank you, ancestors. But then,how do we not get stuck in the
(31:32):
scarcity loop? Because we'relike, that doesn't feel good.
And so again, coming back to mymom's wisdom around
satisfaction, is leaning intoyour body center to complement
what your mind center is tryingto do. Your mind center is
trying to analyze, figure out,forecast, keep you safe.
Great. Thank you, mind. We'relike, okay. Let me take it to
(31:54):
the meditation, Matt, and see ifyou can just chill out for a
second. That helps, but not ifwe don't apply it to our
relationship to wealth andmoney.
So one of the key contributions,I would say, to my field is
taking the work of Lynn Twist,who worked for twenty years
around sufficiency, knowing wehave enough, to satiation,
(32:16):
feeling we are enough. Andthere's a key distinction. As
you start to tune into your bodycenter and recognize the ways
you feel satisfied andfulfilled, it is visceral. Not
gratitude. Gratitude is a heartcentered emotion of I feel
warmth in my heart.
No, I'm talking about visceral.It's what you feel after an
amazing workout where you workedreally hard and your body was
(32:39):
sweating. It's what you feelwhen you just pause and feel
like breeze on your skin. Right?It's when you eat a nourishing
meal in contrast to emptycalories.
It is a body visceral feeling ofenoughness and fulfillment. And
one of the things I tell Wendyis for thirty days, can you just
at the end of your day, a thirtyday satiation challenge. Write
(33:01):
three things that satisfied youthat day. Where you felt
fulfilled, satisfied, meaning.And just take note.
Don't analyze it, write it, andafter thirty days go back and
read it in one fell swoop, whatare some of the patterns and
strategies that you start torepeat themselves? And then you
literally digest it. It's funny,one of the things that most
(33:24):
readers have loved is thisconcept of swallowing. So
swallow. Like, swallow thatmoment of meaning.
Swallow that satisfaction. Seeit go all the way to every cell
in your body, and then imaginethat sense of fulfillment and
meaning starting compound justlike we want interest to
compound in our portfolios. Letit compound and let right? Like,
(33:48):
that the cover has thisbeautiful image of the well of
worthiness when we're startingto fill ourselves up from the
inside out. And the more we dothat, Wendy, it doesn't
necessarily it doesn't solvelike, there's no magic pill.
We're not trying to solve forthe cycles of money. It's going
to be cyclical. But the placethat we meet it from is very
(34:11):
different than if I'm meetingthe cycles of money from super
tension and scarcity. Meet itfrom the place of being
connected to your well ofworthiness, to your power of
enough, to your ability tosatiate yourself, and you're
able to face that cycle in adifferent place.
Wendy (34:29):
It's a great distinction and a really important one. And
that exercise you suggested, andthere's plenty in your book of
really cool exercises. It's sucha it's such a simple way. It
reminds me of the direction ofpositive psychology. Like, three
good things that happened to youthat day.
Write down three good thing ortalk about it over dinner with
(34:49):
your family or your loved ones.You were talking about your mom.
I was thinking about my mom andthe really messed up message
that I got about money from her.So just to share a quick story.
My mom had this very fantasticalstory about money.
I think she saw herself as avery wealthy person. But we were
(35:13):
a working class. And both myparents had to work. There was
definitely always struggle.Right?
So I think the reality versusher mindset or her fantastical
idea that she had all of thismoney, and she would she would
demonstrate it by spending moneyshe did not have. And she would
play around with credit carddebt and and my dad had no
(35:37):
interaction with their financialwell-being. He had no idea what
was going on. He just left it toher, old school. So just as an
example of how this played outand what I witnessed and what
really messed with my head waslike, she would take me to go
school shopping for my clothesfor the next school year.
Right? And kinda had thiscontrolling thing where she
(35:59):
would pick out my clothes forme. I think you would look good
in this. I think you would lookgood in this. And because she
was paying, I felt like I I owedher that Mhmm.
Yep. To make those decisions onmy behalf. And so I'd go try
them on and model them for her,and she'd spent a shit ton of
money Mhmm. On a credit card forthese clothes. And then we get
(36:19):
in the car, pile the clothesinto the back, and she would not
talk to me for the rest of theday until my dad got home
because she was so angry shespent this money.
Like, she was so psyched tospend it, and then afterwards
she would not talk to me. Yeah.It was really confusing. Right?
Super.
Dad would come home and she'dsay, you should show dad your
(36:42):
new clothes. And it was like thelast four hours never happened
where she didn't talk to me.It's like so so like this this
really confusing kind of messagearound money. So that's just
another example of how insidiousit can be, and you don't even
realize how much that kind ofstuff can impact. And where did
she get that from?
Elizabeth (37:03):
Yeah. Let's pause there, Wendy, because you gave
such a great example. So thankyou for sharing, right? Like,
that's my other intention withthe book is for us to talk more
about this, right? Because themore we talk about it, the less
it has hold in our body.
But in that description, acouple of things that I felt was
like I felt a huge disconnect,right, between the experience of
(37:24):
being told here you can wearthis and I'm doing this for you
to then being totally ignored. Imean, talk about the impact on
secure attachment with yourmama, right, to feel that. And
then the feeling too of thedisconnect in you being able to
choose how you wanna engage withthe material world. What what
(37:45):
clothes feel good to you. Youknow what I mean?
And being told, this is whatwe're gonna put on your body to
model for me. Right? Probably asa way to fit in or whatever your
mom was doing, and thedisconnect to be like, wait. In
the reality, you probably wantedthe connection with your mom
more than you wanted thisclothes. Yeah.
Yeah. Then when she woulddisappear, the disappointment. I
(38:09):
wouldn't be surprised if therewas definitely a little bit of
hesitancy relationship to my, Idon't know money. That did not
turn out too well when you wereintroduced to me with through
mom. Right?
And so I think the more that youstart to be and I have no idea
how much you probably have donea ton of work, Wendy, in this
relationship. And if I can justadd to that nugget, it would be
(38:30):
just to, like
Wendy (38:30):
Oh, there's always more to do. Yeah.
Elizabeth (38:32):
Totally. It just to be to to, like almost like you
and money can be like, yay. Thatwas so screwed up. Like, money,
I'm sorry that happened to you,and money would say, Wendy, I'm
sorry that happened to you. Thatis not how we should have met.
Right? And to be like, okay. Wewrote that. That happened. I
can't go back and change it,but, money, let's try it again.
How should we have met? What areyour ideas? What are my ideas?
(38:55):
What how could we have reframedthat scene better? Right?
And, like, that's therelationship you and I wanna
have, money. And then you canstart to take the responsibility
of designing because you knowyourself so much more as an
adult right now to be like,yeah. I would not have done that
that way.
Wendy (39:10):
Right. Right. Yeah. Those are great insights. Yeah.
I'll have to play around withthat because I don't have a
great relationship with moneynow. I'm definitely in I have
scarcity head. So that's why Iwas extra psyched to get the
invitation to talk to you.
Elizabeth (39:23):
I would say that, Wendy. Sit down and be like,
hey, money. Let me tell you howscrewed up that was. And and let
money have a response. And thisis really important, Wendy, is I
tell people no one should standbetween you and relationship to
money.
No parent, no spouse, nosibling, no financial advisor,
no CPA, no investment manager.And I don't say that to take
(39:47):
myself out of the job. I willalways have a job because but
guess what? Everyone wants totalk about money. Right.
So I will have a job for a longtime. But much like you're not
necessarily inviting yourtherapist to live with you and
your partner, hopefully that'snot what's happening. Your
relationship to money needs tobe direct, and things have
happened which don't feel good,we're not proud of, felt like
(40:08):
were imposed on us, but tellthose stories so that you and
money can have a relationshipwith a clean slate.
Wendy (40:16):
I love it. Yes. And hopefully, that's an invitation
for anybody who might belistening.
Elizabeth (40:22):
A 100%. Oh my goodness. Tell your money story.
Wendy (40:25):
Because we all got them, ladies and gentlemen.
Elizabeth (40:27):
Oh, yeah.
Wendy (40:28):
So before we wrap up, I wanna talk a little bit about
meaning and your take on meaningand this subject.
Elizabeth (40:36):
Yeah. Oh my goodness. I love meaning. I'm like, for
me, the world is about meaning.And, one of one of the things
one of my contributions wasgetting super clear that there
is an abundant scarcity loopthat we can get stuck in, which
basically means I'm gonna pushscarcity away by trying to grab
(40:56):
on for more.
And I'm grasping onto abundanceby pushing scarcity, and we get
stuck in the slip, and we'relike, why doesn't it not feel
any different? Right? Even if Igot more money, still feel
scarcity. So what I do is that Isituate. I don't get rid of that
cycle.
That is part of the cycle ofsurvival, and there's a lot that
we figure out in ourselves byfiguring out how to create
financial stability in ourlives. But that can't be the end
(41:17):
goal. That is not why we camehere, right, to exist on this
world, in this realm. The endgoal is really about creating
meaning and fulfillment in yourown life, in your communities,
in the world around us. So wecan do that still within a
financial foundation andeconomic framework.
Right? And so then I add in themeaning and fulfillment cycle,
(41:38):
which is just as important tohave parallel to the abundance
scarcity cycle, which is wherewe're taking the we're taking
our relationship to wealth, andwe didn't dive too much into it,
but I use a tool called thewealth mandala or wealth map.
Right? It's a Sanskrit word forcircle, and it's it's basically
one circle that uses the scienceof human needs that we know came
(42:01):
from I mean, it's come from alot of people, but Maslow made
it popular. I've studied withother economists, and it's
basically saying we haveuniversal human needs.
So I use 12. You can add acouple extra if I didn't name
your really important one. So 12human needs, but the way we
satisfy them is unique andpersonal. So that's really
important. Right?
So financial stability is one ofthose 12 human needs. Physical
(42:25):
safety, connection, belonging,purpose, I can name all 12 of
them. But what's reallyimportant is that when we see
financial stability as one ofthe 12 slices of the pie, we
recognize that we can't put allof our attention, focus, and
resources just there. And thenwe do have to make sure that we
feel some level of stability.Right?
And if that house is on fire,that house is on fire, we need
to address it. But equallyimportant in parallel is
(42:49):
addressing the wealth in theseother areas of our life. Right?
And coming back to the questionaround meaning is that a lot of
times our meaning doesn't comefrom our financial stability
slice of the pie. That's whatgives us our house and our
shelter and our clothes.
Meaning is found a lot inpurpose, in participation, in
understanding, in connection, inbelonging, in leisure when we're
(43:13):
kind of thinking aboutcreativity. Right? And so if we
don't situate wealth morebroadly, we're robbing
ourselves. It is a negativereturn on the investment of
life. Well, And what's the wholepoint?
My grandfather taught me we diewith $0. Right?
Wendy (43:30):
That's right.
Elizabeth (43:31):
And so if we situate wealth within meaning and
fulfillment, we really start tofind joy, not just in our
relationship to money, but inour relationship to wealth.
Wendy (43:39):
Beautiful. Okay. So I mean, and especially now, the
idea of focusing on meaning isreally important. Yeah. Because
it it can pull you out of fear.
Elizabeth (43:50):
Mhmm.
Wendy (43:50):
If you have something to strive for, I think. Just my 2¢
there. A 100%. Yeah.
Elizabeth (43:57):
And it helps us start to pave the way for what's next
to come. Exactly. I wish I couldfast forward right now, and I
can't. But I can deepen myexperience of meaning.
Wendy (44:08):
Exactly. My new favorite word is possibility. Yeah. And
that's what that's what a lot ofwhat you're talking about is in
is different ways of being inrelationship with money and now
with wealth, separating the twoand seeing what's possible for
yourself in this newrelationship.
Elizabeth (44:26):
Yeah. And let me say one last thing here, Wendy,
before we start to close or aswe start to close is that
intentionally, I wrote a bookthat had nothing to do with
investment strategies andnumbers. Right? I mean, I do
that all day long with clients.But intentionally, I wrote a
book called The Power of Enough,where we could have so many
different entry points intotalking about money and wealth
(44:47):
as an experience.
Because if that is thefoundation that we start from,
then we can go back to ourspreadsheets from a different
place of possibility to use yourword. And that is a very
different experience of engagingwith money than from a place of
like, oh my goodness. The worldis on fire. My life is on fire,
(45:08):
and I just feel so tight, and Ihave to figure out this money
situation. Right?
I had teachers Mhmm. Tell me, ifyou start to close, the magic
doesn't happen. So put yourspreadsheet down for a second.
Put your money worries down.Write them on a list if you need
to come back to them.
Take the journey of the power ofenough so that you can connect
to a different framework andstart to feel possibility, and
(45:31):
then come back to financialstability, slice of the pie, and
see what's different.
Wendy (45:35):
Love it. Alright. So besides this incredible book,
are there other ways in whichyou're you're working with
people? Do you offer workshopsor classes or courses online or
anything like that?
Elizabeth (45:47):
Yes. So they will come. Right? I have given myself
the permission to birth the bookin just birthing the book, but I
am building a lit I mean, so Ihave a ton of free resources on
my website. If you add your nameto my mailing list, I will start
to do more offerings probablytowards the end of the year once
I'm done with the book tour.
And also, you can follow me onInstagram. It's at Elizabeth
(46:09):
Husserl. I try to givemeaningful content, different
podcasts that I'm on anddifferent exercises and
thoughts. But connect with methat way, and and I will keep
people posted for when there'sother opportunities to work
because, you know, I'm committedto more people having deep,
meaningful conversations aroundmoney.
Wendy (46:28):
Great. And what is your website?
Elizabeth (46:30):
It's Elizabeth Husserl. So Elizabeth with a z,
then Husserl is husserlcom. Ifyou go to the resource page,
there's a ton of free resourcesfrom the book. It makes more
sense if you read the book andtake the journey but there's
things that you can start today.
Wendy (46:48):
Excellent. Okay. Elizabeth, thank you. You. Thank
you.
I really appreciate thisconversation very much.
Elizabeth (46:55):
Yeah. You're so welcome, Wendy. Thank you for
having me. Alright.
Wendy (47:00):
So I guess it's time to stop scapegoating money and to
take it out for an ice cream. Imean, well, money will pay for
the ice cream, so there's that.That was super meta. If you'd
like to transform your moneystory, please visit
elizabethhusserl.com using thelink in the show notes. Thanks
(47:23):
for listening.
I think you're top notch anddeserve an ice cream that your
new friend money will pay for.I'll be back in a few weeks with
a crazy informative episode witha woman who's written a
comprehensive book about ways wecan help our dog friends live
long and healthy lives usingherbal remedies. It's a really
(47:45):
cool conversation. I hope you'lljoin me for that. Until next
time.
This is Wendy Halley, and you're listening to Lucid Cafe.
(00:31):
You know what just hit me? It'sJune. I haven't gotten used to
writing 2025, and we're almosthalfway through the year. And
yet, here we are mid June withanother episode of Lucid Cafe.
Thanks for joining me. I wonderif there's a podcast award for
(00:52):
the best introduction to anepisode because if there is, I'd
probably get it for this one.I'm clearly really good at this.
Speaking of time, guess whatelse snuck up on me? Would you
believe that this season iswinding down?
There's either one or twoepisodes of season seven left.
(01:15):
What is happening? You know I'vebitched about time before. I I
won't bore you with my time isspeeding up rant. Instead, I
want to give my sincere thanksto everyone who listened to the
last episode with my friendClaire about my book.
Turned out to be a surprisinglypopular episode and it appears
(01:37):
as though people are buying mybook, which I'm absolutely
thrilled about and grateful for.So thank you for that. Okay.
Let's shift gears and get totoday's episode. Do you feel
overwhelmed and intimidated bymoney?
Dragged down by the complexityand abstraction of it? Do you
(01:58):
often feel lack even though youmake a good living and have a
lot of material things? My guestElizabeth Husserl offers a way
to reshape your mindset abouthow you relate to money. In our
conversation and in her newbook, The Power of Enough
Finding Joy in Your Relationshipwith Money, Elizabeth shares how
(02:19):
our financial mindset influencesour well-being and how
entrenched financial systems canblock our pursuit of true
happiness. She also shares someperspectives in our conversation
that may surprise you and areright up my alley.
Elizabeth is a registeredinvestment advisor
representative, financialadvisor, and co founder of Peak
(02:42):
three sixty Wealth Management, aboutique wealth planning firm.
She holds a BS in economics fromTulane University and an MA in
East West psychology from theCalifornia Institute of Integral
Studies where she has alsotaught as an adjunct professor.
(03:02):
Her experience spans nonprofitwork throughout The Americas,
and she is a highly sought afterspeaker having led workshops at
major tech companies, includingAirbnb, Unity, and Google.
Please enjoy my conversationwith Elizabeth Husserall.
(03:23):
Elizabeth, thanks so much forjoining me.
Elizabeth (03:26):
Wendy, it is such a pleasure to be here.
Wendy (03:28):
Well, I mean, I don't know if anybody's going to be
interested in this topic at all,because it's just it's not
something that ever comes up forpeople.
Elizabeth (03:39):
Can you imagine?
Wendy (03:40):
I know. Let me start by saying that I've had the copy I
received of your book on myreception area table here at my
wellness center for some weeksnow. And I lost count of how
many people photographed thecover and then decided to buy it
just based on the cover and thenmaybe glimpsing through some of
(04:03):
it. So, I think you've hit onsomething here. Yeah.
Yeah. So, what you've done is,in your book, is you're
encouraging us to look at moneyin a different way. Before we
get into that different way, I'dlove to hear your perspective on
how you would describe how mostor maybe all of us see money in
(04:29):
our society, in our culture.
Elizabeth (04:31):
Yeah. Thank you, Wendy. I mean, that's such a
great question, and it reallyhits to the core of the problem
that I'm working through in thebook, which is why is it that we
have so much and yet we feel sopoor? And why is it that we
think money and wealth are thesame thing? And it's a problem
that I've been chewing on for,you know, I would say I was
(04:52):
gonna say twenty years, butalmost thirty years by now in
working with people in theirrelationship to money and
working in differentcommunities, different cultures,
and really being as like, why isit that we think wealth and
money are the same thing?
And how does that keep us onthis rat race and this hustle of
trying to accumulate more andfeeling scarcity and really not
(05:13):
just able to enjoy wealth as astate of well-being that we have
access to at all times. And sowhen you were talking about the
experience of people picking upthe book, I feel like I got
tears in my eyes, because itreally does represent a passion
project and a journey of thirtyyears in my own life, and I want
to share that journey withothers for them to take their
(05:35):
journey into their relationshipwith money, clear up that
interference so that we canexperience wealth, not just
accumulate it, can we experiencewealth.
Wendy (05:46):
Wonderful. Okay. So that takes us into because most of us
will equate both words, moneyand wealth. Yeah. If I have a
lot of money, I am wealthy.
If I don't have a lot of money,I am not wealthy. So how do you
differentiate the two?
Elizabeth (06:03):
Yeah. Well, I mean, that's that is the core belief,
and the antidote to it is reallyjust first recognizing there's a
difference. Right? And we andand redefining the terms and the
language that we use to talkabout money and redefining the
terms and the language that weuse to talk about wealth. Right?
So we can talk about money interms of its functions, right,
(06:25):
its use. It is a tool, much liketechnology is a tool. Our phones
are a tool. It is it is atechnology that we use for
exchange, and it is a technologythat has some that has come to
replace trust in some capacity,and that's where it starts to
get confusing and hazy and icky.We're like, wait a second.
Why is my trustworthiness basedon my credit score? Right? And
(06:46):
we can talk and unpack that alittle bit more. But I think the
key piece is that money has arole. And to some extent, even
though this is hard for somepeople to stomach, its role can
be neutral.
Right? We we we rather scapegoatmoney and get really angry at it
and get really upset at it. Butwhat I tell people is that money
is a tool. Our experience ofwealth in the framework of how
(07:08):
we define wealth connected towell-being is a state that we
get to co create and co design.And I think as people and
humans, we have the right andresponsibility to start to
readdress, redefine, reexperience wealth, not just in
our own lives, but as a society.
And I think that's how we startto make some lasting impact and
(07:31):
transformative change in theworld is separating the two.
Wendy (07:35):
Yeah. And that's a novel idea, at least from where I sit
over here. I would love to hearmore of your thoughts on trust,
because that is so huge. Huge.And I think we all we all
struggle with trust in varyingways, but particularly around
(07:56):
our financial well-being.
Elizabeth (07:59):
Yeah. And so, you know, let's do a little thought
exercise and let's go back intime to when potentially our
ancestor lived in smallercommunities or even think of
yourself in a community you'repart of. Right? A work
community, a school community, afriend community, a dance
community, whatever you're partof. And when you think of
yourself in that community, dopeople trust you because they
(08:19):
know how much money than youhave in your bank account?
No. They probably don't knowbecause we don't talk about
money. Do they trust you basedon the ways you have showed up
in the relationship? Right?Usually, it's that.
Once we build intimacy withpeople and relationships based
on who we are and how we showup, how we give and receive,
trust, right, is rooted in itscorrect place, which is that
(08:41):
core stone of relationship. Butin our modern culture, where we
don't at times build thoselevels of intimate
relationships, we are goingthrough a pandemic of
loneliness. So in our modernculture, when we're feeling
lonely and isolated, moneystarts to replace intimacy when
it comes to trust. And that'swhen it doesn't feel good.
(09:05):
Right?
And that's where we're like,wait a second. My credit score
speaks volumes about me, butwho's to say? Maybe I'm going
through a really hard time, andmaybe I had to default on a
loan. That doesn't necessarilymean I'm trustworthy. What were
the situations that caused that?
Right? And so and and when wedon't have the relationships
with people, then we lose otherbarometers to build trust. And
(09:27):
that's, again, where moneyreally starts to have all these
emotions and feelings in ourlives. And so a really important
piece well, and I'll I'll letyou speak because I I can see
actually, I'll stop there.
Wendy (09:37):
What you're saying is so poignant because in the absence
of connection with others, weplace all this pressure then on
money to fill that void.
Elizabeth (09:49):
Yeah.
Wendy (09:51):
That's not really fair or actually how things work, right?
I mean Yeah. It's like a setupfor disappointment consistently
because money is not that thing.
Elizabeth (10:03):
Right. And Wendy, you were speaking to I wanna say
what triggers most people in mywork with them, where there's a
resistance. Right? We're like,oh, but it is easier to
scapegoat money. It's easier tofeel angry at my relationship to
money, how it's not showing up,how it's complicated.
Right? How there's not enough topay for my bills. Like, all
(10:25):
these and these are experiencesthat I have had personally where
I'm like, shaking my hand. And Ispeak to them in my book. Right?
I get super vulnerable and say,hey. My first conversation with
money was really freaking hard.And money kinda told me,
Elizabeth, back off. You'reyou're strangling me. Right?
And it was such a wake upmoment, Wendy, when we start to
realize, oh, what am I actuallyangry about? Where where am I
(10:47):
actually feeling lack andpoverty and scarcity? And for
sure, it can still be within therealm or or slice of financial
stability. Right? Doesn'tnecessarily mean I have
everything solved.
But when I start to get reallyclear about what is my role in
creating the financial dynamicI'm in, Right? I'm not trying to
play a victim here. I'm tryingto get really clear on how am I
(11:10):
creating the situation, what arethe list of questions I have
that I need help answering, whatpertains to money, and what
doesn't. Right? When I first satdown and I'll say this.
When I first sat down and had myconversation with money we'll
talk about what that is. So whenI sat down and had my
conversation with money, Irealized that after I told it
how angry I was and how it's notshowing up and shaking my fist,
(11:34):
and Money responded saying,Elizabeth, stop strangling me. I
need some space. My firstreaction, Wendy, was like, Oh,
I've had this conversationbefore with boyfriends. This is
not the first time someone hastold me they need a little bit
of space in a relationship withme.
Even with girlfriends. Right?There's people in my life where
I like maybe I have anxiousattachment. I like holding on
tight. Being needy.
Totally. Totally. And I waslike, okay. Money, you're not
(11:56):
the first one to tell me this. Iknow this is a pattern.
What are you trying to tell me?And when we went back and forth
in this conversation, I waslike, oh, I'm trying to start a
private practice after gradschool. No one's taught me how
to be an entrepreneur. I have noidea what I'm doing. I feel like
I'm flailing.
Let me just be human and be okaywith that. I'm doing something
that someone has not ever taughtme how to do. I'm taking a
(12:19):
financial risk, and it feelsreally insecure. And once I gave
myself permission just to bewith where I was in my financial
journey, in my career, I waslike, okay. Money, I'm not gonna
waste any more time being angryat you.
Let me get super clear on what Ineed to learn, how I'm gonna
learn it, who in my world maybehas done this successfully so I
could talk to them. And then youand I, Money, are gonna create a
(12:41):
business plan so I can get superclear what do I need, right, to
make this work? How much do Ihave to ask for you? Why is it
so uncomfortable to chargepeople my full fee? Right?
Now that it's a differentconversation. And then I started
to take responsibility for theways that I was wasting a lot of
time and energy in scapegoatingmoney. When money was like, hey,
I do wanna help, but whatpertains to you and you building
(13:05):
your business? And then tell mewhat is that you need me to do.
And we don't do that.
Right? We don't takeresponsibility for the ways that
we're creating some of ourfinancial situation. And I know
a lot of people, Wendy, willtell me, but wait a second. But
I got fired. Right?
I got laid off. There's a lot ofinsecurity in the world right
now when it comes to money. Allof that is right, but what we
can't let ourselves do is getstuck in that scarcity cycle
(13:30):
because then all of us start allparts of us start to shut down.
We all know what this feelslike, and we can't access the
other areas of wealth in ourlife that can help us see new
possibilities, experience newopportunities, see things from a
beginner's mind that can helpmove the needle in building
(13:51):
wealth in our lives.
Wendy (13:52):
What you're making me think of as you're talking is
that, first of all, the wholeidea of having a conversation
with money is brilliant. And thefact that you're talking about
talking with money suggests thatit's a two way street, whereas
where most of us sit, we're nothaving conversations with money.
I don't even know if we realizewe can do that.
Elizabeth (14:13):
Right.
Wendy (14:13):
And I'd like to get to that a little bit later in the
conversation. But for now,what's really striking me is
this idea of how much personalpower then we end up giving to
money when it probably doesn'twant our power. It's just this
neutral tool like you weresaying before. And yet, who
(14:34):
doesn't feel powerless
Elizabeth (14:35):
when
Wendy (14:36):
they look at their bank account balance or they get a
big bill or they lose their jobor whatever. And then of course,
why wouldn't you blame money?Damn it.
Elizabeth (14:47):
Right.
Wendy (14:47):
Yeah. Let me get Here
Elizabeth (14:49):
go again. This is the pattern. Right? Right. A 100%.
And I think what's reallyimportant is that our
relationship to money can be afoundation of connection despite
the fact that money and peopleare cyclical. Right? Like, I can
have a foundational relationshipwith my husband and not expect
(15:11):
him to wake up happy every day.If I did expect that, I'd be
wildly disappointed. Right?
Or my daughter who's a teenager.But the connection is what
allows me to stay in intimaterelationship with my family
members even through the cyclesof emotion. So the same thing
applies to money. Money iscyclical. Economics is cyclical.
(15:34):
Right? If you look at anypicture of the stock market, it
will go up and it will go down.So the the the cycles of
economics are growth, recession,depression. Growth, recession,
depression. Now I love words andlanguage.
Right? Recess. It's literallyrecession is recess, so take a
break. Depression is depressed.Take your foot off the pedal.
(15:55):
Something isn't working, right,when we go through economic
recession and depression. Andthat's actually where we're able
to lean into the humancreativity to redefine and
redesign things from a differentangle. So if we allow our
relationship to money to be thefoundational connection and it
(16:16):
to also have its own cycles,then we're less thrown off our
core, thrown off center whenmoney goes up and down. Right?
It will go up and down.
We breathe in and out, and Ithink that's a piece, Wendy.
People really love money in onedirection, which is up. And
imagine if your partner said, Ionly love you if you're up, and
(16:39):
you're like, well, wait asecond. What happens when I'm
down? Right?
And so part of it is when we putit in this comical terms, we're
like, of course, I wouldn't wantthat in my partner. And so the
same thing. When we start tolook at a relationship to mine
and be like, let's just treat itas a relationship, the
connection can be stable, butthe movement can be cyclical.
Wendy (16:58):
What you're talking about, I've become intimately
aware of as a business owner forthe last ten years, a small
business owner, the ebb and flowof income. Yeah. Which is the
polar opposite of having asteady job where you're
especially if you're on salary,and you get the same amount
(17:19):
every two weeks or whatever. Andyou don't experience that ebb
and flow. So not directlyanyway, unless it's like your
investments or that kind ofthing, or you lose your job.
But it's it gives almost theillusion that it's gonna be a
constant. And then when it goesaway, it's probably even more
devastating.
Elizabeth (17:40):
Yeah. Yeah. And this is really important, Wendy. It's
like, again, we're not taughtabout this in school or in
college. Right?
This idea of what is our what isour relationship to money. And
so to your point, my dad was a wtwo. Right? There's two ways we
earn. We're either a w two, andit's a steady paycheck ish,
right, or you're clocking hoursfor a steady hourly, or you're
(18:00):
an entrepreneur, and it'scyclical.
Right? And you build thatpipeline of clienteles or
services. And I had been raisedby a w two, and so the paycheck
always came. So there's asteadiness to it. But I knew
actually, I didn't know thatbecause I didn't know the
distinction back then.
I'm like, I wanna work formyself. But I no one had taught
me that was cyclical. I'm like,no wonder money and I were
(18:21):
struggling. Because I was like,wow. Yeah.
This is feeling super insecure,and it's very different than
what I grew up with. Right? Andso, again, if we were taught
this, then we'd be able to be,like, almost like our relational
styles. Right? Like, what's yourlove language?
It's like, what's your moneylanguage? Are you someone who
thrives better with consistency?Maybe a w two path is better for
(18:41):
you. Are you someone who thrivesmore with freedom? Maybe an
entrepreneur path.
You know what I mean? And sobut, again, if we were to speak
of it in that kind of moreneutral language, it's really
about understanding our moneypersonality and making decisions
where you and money can feelaligned and as if you were
allies and each other's bestfriend.
Wendy (19:01):
I love that. You know, it's very shamanic what you're
talking about.
Elizabeth (19:05):
A 100%.
Wendy (19:06):
Yeah. Very Yeah. That relational perspective of being
in relationship with.
Elizabeth (19:12):
Yeah.
Wendy (19:13):
A friend of mine, Linda, she came up with this workshop
that she and I and anotherfriend co facilitated. It was
for small business owners aboutconnecting with the spirit of
your business.
Elizabeth (19:25):
Yeah.
Wendy (19:26):
And giving it personhood that it has its own
intelligence. Right?
Elizabeth (19:31):
Yeah.
Wendy (19:32):
But that's such a different way of looking at
having a business. It maybe it'sa little out there for a lot of
folks. But No.
Elizabeth (19:38):
Can can we just go there for a second, guys?
Wendy (19:40):
Much. Yeah.
Elizabeth (19:41):
I don't necessarily share this with all clients.
Could not all clients let mehave this conversation, but I
very much treat money as aspirit animal. Like, have I have
many spirit animals and manyguides, and money is one of
them. And literally, when I Ihave money's on my altar. I have
ritual with money.
Right? I very much treat it asan energetic presence in my
(20:03):
life, and ultimately has becomea mirror and a guide. And so I
100% agree with you. I had ateacher. I worked very closely
for many years with MalodomaSomai.
He was a West African elder. Hewould speak I know
Wendy (20:14):
his name. Yeah.
Elizabeth (20:15):
Yeah. He would speak about you know, my husband and I
worked with him for over adecade, and he would teach us
spiritual technologies. And sothere is a way in which money is
a technology. We can't over giveits power. Right?
It's almost like giving my phonetoo much power to define me
because I'm, like, stuck onsocial media and likes. You each
(20:37):
technology has its wisdom in itsshadow. Right? But if we are
able to be nimble and meet thetechnology as a peer, then it
can be a very potent mirror intoco creating reality together.
Well
Wendy (20:54):
said. Mhmm. I mean, all the things that you're saying
today, and you bring up in yourbook really point to the
deficits in our culturalworldview, right, which is and
forgive me folks for talkingabout this again, but the
cultural worldview of colonialmind that our culture is based
(21:14):
on, right, which is aboutownership of the earth and its
resources and manipulating theenvironment to make it the way
we want it to be and and peopleas well. And then all of the
things that come from that, likemoney and success, the American
dream, and every man forhimself, and it's okay if you
(21:35):
step on people to get to whereyou need to be kind of thing.
It's it's the opposite ofindigenous mind, is relational.
You're really inviting us to bein relationship with
Elizabeth (21:47):
these
Wendy (21:48):
concepts that I don't know if we ever really think
about.
Elizabeth (21:52):
Yeah. And I'm inviting all of us to
participate. Right? I have feetin lots of different worlds. I
work in finance, and I'm deeplyspiritual and a ritualist.
Right? So I have feet in manydifferent worlds. It's equally
important, and my two kind ofvalues are depth and wealth. And
(22:14):
when I'm working with clientswho have a lot of money, I'm
really bringing that depthperspective. And I'm working
with people in my spiritualretreat workshops.
I'm really bringing in thatwealth perspective. Because I
think the more we can navigatethese different worlds, right,
the more we can really harnessthat power of creativity. And
especially for people who areculturally creative humans,
(22:39):
channel as much money as you cantowards the things you believe
in. And it requires workingthrough the interference that we
have and judgment. I mean, I'mthe first to have judgment,
right, around people use moneyfor evil, and people do and it's
true.
People do a lot of crazy thingsthat I do not agree with.
Wendy (22:56):
But Yeah. Have no idea what you're talking about,
especially right
Elizabeth (22:58):
now as
Wendy (22:59):
we're recording Oh my goodness.
Elizabeth (23:01):
But here's the thing. You know, and I can't tell you
that is a big part of myconversation clients right now.
You know, a lot of people areangry, and rightfully so. This
is not the country I believe in.Right?
And yet, I think what's reallyimportant is to let's not waste
time blaming money because wescapegoat the real change. Let's
(23:24):
continue to be the humans webelieve in and use all the
resources at our fingertips tomake that change come into
reality. Right? And so I've hadto dig deep and continue to
promote my work in a moment thatat times feels bleak because
that's how I participate inchanging the reality. I've had
to have really goodconversations with clients to be
(23:46):
like, maybe this is not the yearto look for a new investment.
Maybe this is the year to domore charitable giving than
we've ever done because thoseorganizations need it most.
Right? Because funding is beingcut. So it's like and I say
that, and I get chills in mybody because we do have agency.
Maybe this is a year that I'mgonna take a spending sabbatical
on this because I guess what?
I'm gonna commit to livingwithin my means and get off the
(24:09):
rat race of feeling like I needmore money to feel happy. I
mean, I could sit here all daylong and spout ideas of how to
do it, but let's takeresponsibility for owning that
money and wealth are differentthings and for taking the
journey to understand what doesthat mean for each of us.
Wendy (24:26):
So that makes me think about how much we've attached
survival to money. I mean,because I know in fallow times,
it feels like it's life or deathkind of I that's dramatic. It's
not that bad, but
Elizabeth (24:39):
it's But it does feel that way. You're not wrong.
Yeah. We I mean, you say that Iknow exactly what that feels
like in my body. We all feel it.
Wendy (24:45):
Right. Oh, that that's good. Okay. Because I was being
dramatic, but I guess not. Butit the fact that it's equated so
closely with with survival
Elizabeth (24:56):
Mhmm.
Wendy (24:56):
Is like a prison. It keeps you in this little box of,
like, I just have to I have toearn x amount of dollars, or I
have to find a way to get moremoney. Or if I don't, horrible,
horrible things are gonnahappen. I'll be homeless. I'll
be with I'll be unable to feedmyself and my family.
(25:17):
Whatever. Mean, of the worstcase scenario things come into
our minds. Yeah. So I guess thatstuff runs so deep, which leads
me to think about this otherreally important piece in your
book that you talk about, whichis financial DNA. And my
understanding is it's the kindof cultural beliefs and the
(25:39):
familial beliefs, the ancestralbeliefs that we acquire around
money and wealth, and how theyimpact us unconsciously, I would
suggest, right?
So can you talk about that some?
Elizabeth (25:55):
Of course, and would take it even back, like, when
you were first talking aboutthis, right, the imagery I was
getting is that and MichaelEster talks about in his book,
The Scarcity Brain. Even beyondthe last generation of
ancestors, for centuries, wehave been wired to seek for
(26:18):
survival. And so let's justagain accept that as a neutral
fact. That's how we're wired,and it's how our brain keeps us
safe. So thank you, Mind Center,for helping us stay safe and
surviving and imagining where amI going to get calories, where
am I going get shelter, how am Igoing to stay protected.
That is just part of ourorganisms to stay safe, to also
(26:39):
reproduce, all the things. Andso that's way past kind of the
ancestors that we know. Then ourown stage of ancestors have
their stories. Their stories onmoney successes, money failures,
scarcity, where they feltwealth, where they felt poverty,
etcetera. I do find it'simportant to the extent that you
can, if you know your ancestors,to take a moment and look back,
(27:01):
not necessarily with theintention of needing to heal
their journey, their journey wastheir journey, you're not
responsible for their journey.
But when you sit down and youlook at the past, your money
story and their money story, youcan start to get some important
nuggets and make some importantdecisions of what from that
story do you potentially wannatake on, pass on to the next
(27:22):
generation as financial legacyand inheritance. Which parts of
those story no longer serve you?So a big reason of why I wrote
this book was because I wascommitted to not passing
scarcity on to my teenagedaughter. Right? And the reality
is, as I mentioned before, youknow, I grew up with two working
(27:42):
parents.
My dad in particular was aW-two. He was a physician. We
had more than enough to pay forour bills, to pay for school. We
got to travel to see my familyin Colombia. You know, I grew up
financially stable.
And yet why was there a sense ofscarcity in my home? That was
always what confused me. I'mlike, it just doesn't add up. We
(28:04):
have what we need. We can go tothe bookstore and buy books for
the summertime, right, on as Iget on an airplane to travel
internationally and see myfamily in Colombia.
But why is it that we feel tenseand scarcity? And I started to
trace it back to my grandfather,who had been a survivor in the
Second World War because he wasan Austrian Jew and had to flee.
And my story persecution is veryshared with a lot of people.
(28:26):
Persecution, slavery, these aresadly the chapters of human
society that have marked us. Andso my grandfather was always
preparing for World War three,right?
And my father was raised withinthat scarcity, and he just no
one taught him to ever addressit, so it got passed on to me.
And no one taught me to addressit, but I started but my mom was
(28:47):
a therapist, and so she wouldhave us make these family
meetings. I'm like, okay, how dotherapy and scarcity come
together? We start to haveinquiry. What is this about?
Wendy (28:55):
Way. Really.
Elizabeth (28:55):
Yeah. My mom was a therapist. She didn't start
asking me these questions.Although in chapter eight, I do
quote her where she wouldbecause she didn't come from a
lot. She was the the oldest ofsix in Columbia.
And, like, my grandma made alltheir clothes, and they shared
one car, and they would pile inbefore seat belts. Right? It was
not safe, but they were happytogether in, like, my
grandfather's little Renault inColombia. So she taught me to
(29:20):
when I would when I would eat ameal, to eat to the point that I
felt satisfied and not overfull. Right?
She was like because they had toshare a lot. So eat until you're
satisfied. Don't feel like shewasn't it didn't come from a
place of scarcity. Like, oh, youcan only have so much, but,
like, learn to feel in my bodywhen was I satisfied to know
when there was enough. Like,little did she know how much
(29:42):
that was a core piece of what Iwas gonna be teaching the world.
Right? And so and yet herscarcity, Wendy, was that she
had the same loss of homeland asmy grandfather, because she
didn't want to stay in TheStates. She wanted to go back to
Colombia for fifty years. Sowhere have I felt scarcity in my
wealth map has been aroundbelonging. Right?
(30:02):
My grandfather lost hishomeland, my mom lost her
homeland. I was raised in TheStates as first generation
within a very Latin community. Inever quite felt like I
belonged. Always felt like I waslike the ugly duckling who
didn't look like anyone else inthe South. So all these things
started to shape where I feltpoor and scarce.
And so I'm like, oh, got it.Wealth is so much more broader
(30:27):
than financial stability.Because guess what? It was
definitely not buying ushappiness. It was not buying us
emotional stability.
Right? My parents loved eachother, they loved me, but there
was tension. And so I think whenI started to understand what had
shaped me, I can now lookforward and make different
decisions for what I pass on tomy daughter.
Wendy (30:48):
Well, thanks mom for planting that seed. I mean,
really? Yeah, how many how manypeople have that level of
insight?
Elizabeth (30:56):
Yeah,
Wendy (30:57):
that's amazing. I mean, that's really amazing. Yeah. It
does seem to be that thisfinancial DNA is so deeply
embedded that you don't evenrealize what's influencing you.
Right?
Elizabeth (31:09):
Yeah. And so let's tie it back to what we were
talking about before, Wendy, ofthe scarcity brain. Because
again, if we had eons ofancestors having the scarcity
brain to seek for survival,thank you very much ancestors,
if we're talking, Wendy, ourancestors survived. If we
wouldn't be talking, theywouldn't be. Good job.
Thank you, ancestors. But then,how do we not get stuck in the
(31:32):
scarcity loop? Because we'relike, that doesn't feel good.
And so again, coming back to mymom's wisdom around
satisfaction, is leaning intoyour body center to complement
what your mind center is tryingto do. Your mind center is
trying to analyze, figure out,forecast, keep you safe.
Great. Thank you, mind. We'relike, okay. Let me take it to
(31:54):
the meditation, Matt, and see ifyou can just chill out for a
second. That helps, but not ifwe don't apply it to our
relationship to wealth andmoney.
So one of the key contributions,I would say, to my field is
taking the work of Lynn Twist,who worked for twenty years
around sufficiency, knowing wehave enough, to satiation,
(32:16):
feeling we are enough. Andthere's a key distinction. As
you start to tune into your bodycenter and recognize the ways
you feel satisfied andfulfilled, it is visceral. Not
gratitude. Gratitude is a heartcentered emotion of I feel
warmth in my heart.
No, I'm talking about visceral.It's what you feel after an
amazing workout where you workedreally hard and your body was
(32:39):
sweating. It's what you feelwhen you just pause and feel
like breeze on your skin. Right?It's when you eat a nourishing
meal in contrast to emptycalories.
It is a body visceral feeling ofenoughness and fulfillment. And
one of the things I tell Wendyis for thirty days, can you just
at the end of your day, a thirtyday satiation challenge. Write
(33:01):
three things that satisfied youthat day. Where you felt
fulfilled, satisfied, meaning.And just take note.
Don't analyze it, write it, andafter thirty days go back and
read it in one fell swoop, whatare some of the patterns and
strategies that you start torepeat themselves? And then you
literally digest it. It's funny,one of the things that most
(33:24):
readers have loved is thisconcept of swallowing. So
swallow. Like, swallow thatmoment of meaning.
Swallow that satisfaction. Seeit go all the way to every cell
in your body, and then imaginethat sense of fulfillment and
meaning starting compound justlike we want interest to
compound in our portfolios. Letit compound and let right? Like,
(33:48):
that the cover has thisbeautiful image of the well of
worthiness when we're startingto fill ourselves up from the
inside out. And the more we dothat, Wendy, it doesn't
necessarily it doesn't solvelike, there's no magic pill.
We're not trying to solve forthe cycles of money. It's going
to be cyclical. But the placethat we meet it from is very
(34:11):
different than if I'm meetingthe cycles of money from super
tension and scarcity. Meet itfrom the place of being
connected to your well ofworthiness, to your power of
enough, to your ability tosatiate yourself, and you're
able to face that cycle in adifferent place.
Wendy (34:29):
It's a great distinction and a really important one. And
that exercise you suggested, andthere's plenty in your book of
really cool exercises. It's sucha it's such a simple way. It
reminds me of the direction ofpositive psychology. Like, three
good things that happened to youthat day.
Write down three good thing ortalk about it over dinner with
(34:49):
your family or your loved ones.You were talking about your mom.
I was thinking about my mom andthe really messed up message
that I got about money from her.So just to share a quick story.
My mom had this very fantasticalstory about money.
I think she saw herself as avery wealthy person. But we were
(35:13):
a working class. And both myparents had to work. There was
definitely always struggle.Right?
So I think the reality versusher mindset or her fantastical
idea that she had all of thismoney, and she would she would
demonstrate it by spending moneyshe did not have. And she would
play around with credit carddebt and and my dad had no
(35:37):
interaction with their financialwell-being. He had no idea what
was going on. He just left it toher, old school. So just as an
example of how this played outand what I witnessed and what
really messed with my head waslike, she would take me to go
school shopping for my clothesfor the next school year.
Right? And kinda had thiscontrolling thing where she
(35:59):
would pick out my clothes forme. I think you would look good
in this. I think you would lookgood in this. And because she
was paying, I felt like I I owedher that Mhmm.
Yep. To make those decisions onmy behalf. And so I'd go try
them on and model them for her,and she'd spent a shit ton of
money Mhmm. On a credit card forthese clothes. And then we get
(36:19):
in the car, pile the clothesinto the back, and she would not
talk to me for the rest of theday until my dad got home
because she was so angry shespent this money.
Like, she was so psyched tospend it, and then afterwards
she would not talk to me. Yeah.It was really confusing. Right?
Super.
Dad would come home and she'dsay, you should show dad your
(36:42):
new clothes. And it was like thelast four hours never happened
where she didn't talk to me.It's like so so like this this
really confusing kind of messagearound money. So that's just
another example of how insidiousit can be, and you don't even
realize how much that kind ofstuff can impact. And where did
she get that from?
Elizabeth (37:03):
Yeah. Let's pause there, Wendy, because you gave
such a great example. So thankyou for sharing, right? Like,
that's my other intention withthe book is for us to talk more
about this, right? Because themore we talk about it, the less
it has hold in our body.
But in that description, acouple of things that I felt was
like I felt a huge disconnect,right, between the experience of
(37:24):
being told here you can wearthis and I'm doing this for you
to then being totally ignored. Imean, talk about the impact on
secure attachment with yourmama, right, to feel that. And
then the feeling too of thedisconnect in you being able to
choose how you wanna engage withthe material world. What what
(37:45):
clothes feel good to you. Youknow what I mean?
And being told, this is whatwe're gonna put on your body to
model for me. Right? Probably asa way to fit in or whatever your
mom was doing, and thedisconnect to be like, wait. In
the reality, you probably wantedthe connection with your mom
more than you wanted thisclothes. Yeah.
Yeah. Then when she woulddisappear, the disappointment. I
(38:09):
wouldn't be surprised if therewas definitely a little bit of
hesitancy relationship to my, Idon't know money. That did not
turn out too well when you wereintroduced to me with through
mom. Right?
And so I think the more that youstart to be and I have no idea
how much you probably have donea ton of work, Wendy, in this
relationship. And if I can justadd to that nugget, it would be
(38:30):
just to, like
Wendy (38:30):
Oh, there's always more to do. Yeah.
Elizabeth (38:32):
Totally. It just to be to to, like almost like you
and money can be like, yay. Thatwas so screwed up. Like, money,
I'm sorry that happened to you,and money would say, Wendy, I'm
sorry that happened to you. Thatis not how we should have met.
Right? And to be like, okay. Wewrote that. That happened. I
can't go back and change it,but, money, let's try it again.
How should we have met? What areyour ideas? What are my ideas?
(38:55):
What how could we have reframedthat scene better? Right?
And, like, that's therelationship you and I wanna
have, money. And then you canstart to take the responsibility
of designing because you knowyourself so much more as an
adult right now to be like,yeah. I would not have done that
that way.
Wendy (39:10):
Right. Right. Yeah. Those are great insights. Yeah.
I'll have to play around withthat because I don't have a
great relationship with moneynow. I'm definitely in I have
scarcity head. So that's why Iwas extra psyched to get the
invitation to talk to you.
Elizabeth (39:23):
I would say that, Wendy. Sit down and be like,
hey, money. Let me tell you howscrewed up that was. And and let
money have a response. And thisis really important, Wendy, is I
tell people no one should standbetween you and relationship to
money.
No parent, no spouse, nosibling, no financial advisor,
no CPA, no investment manager.And I don't say that to take
(39:47):
myself out of the job. I willalways have a job because but
guess what? Everyone wants totalk about money. Right.
So I will have a job for a longtime. But much like you're not
necessarily inviting yourtherapist to live with you and
your partner, hopefully that'snot what's happening. Your
relationship to money needs tobe direct, and things have
happened which don't feel good,we're not proud of, felt like
(40:08):
were imposed on us, but tellthose stories so that you and
money can have a relationshipwith a clean slate.
Wendy (40:16):
I love it. Yes. And hopefully, that's an invitation
for anybody who might belistening.
Elizabeth (40:22):
A 100%. Oh my goodness. Tell your money story.
Wendy (40:25):
Because we all got them, ladies and gentlemen.
Elizabeth (40:27):
Oh, yeah.
Wendy (40:28):
So before we wrap up, I wanna talk a little bit about
meaning and your take on meaningand this subject.
Elizabeth (40:36):
Yeah. Oh my goodness. I love meaning. I'm like, for
me, the world is about meaning.And, one of one of the things
one of my contributions wasgetting super clear that there
is an abundant scarcity loopthat we can get stuck in, which
basically means I'm gonna pushscarcity away by trying to grab
(40:56):
on for more.
And I'm grasping onto abundanceby pushing scarcity, and we get
stuck in the slip, and we'relike, why doesn't it not feel
any different? Right? Even if Igot more money, still feel
scarcity. So what I do is that Isituate. I don't get rid of that
cycle.
That is part of the cycle ofsurvival, and there's a lot that
we figure out in ourselves byfiguring out how to create
financial stability in ourlives. But that can't be the end
(41:17):
goal. That is not why we camehere, right, to exist on this
world, in this realm. The endgoal is really about creating
meaning and fulfillment in yourown life, in your communities,
in the world around us. So wecan do that still within a
financial foundation andeconomic framework.
Right? And so then I add in themeaning and fulfillment cycle,
(41:38):
which is just as important tohave parallel to the abundance
scarcity cycle, which is wherewe're taking the we're taking
our relationship to wealth, andwe didn't dive too much into it,
but I use a tool called thewealth mandala or wealth map.
Right? It's a Sanskrit word forcircle, and it's it's basically
one circle that uses the scienceof human needs that we know came
(42:01):
from I mean, it's come from alot of people, but Maslow made
it popular. I've studied withother economists, and it's
basically saying we haveuniversal human needs.
So I use 12. You can add acouple extra if I didn't name
your really important one. So 12human needs, but the way we
satisfy them is unique andpersonal. So that's really
important. Right?
So financial stability is one ofthose 12 human needs. Physical
(42:25):
safety, connection, belonging,purpose, I can name all 12 of
them. But what's reallyimportant is that when we see
financial stability as one ofthe 12 slices of the pie, we
recognize that we can't put allof our attention, focus, and
resources just there. And thenwe do have to make sure that we
feel some level of stability.Right?
And if that house is on fire,that house is on fire, we need
to address it. But equallyimportant in parallel is
(42:49):
addressing the wealth in theseother areas of our life. Right?
And coming back to the questionaround meaning is that a lot of
times our meaning doesn't comefrom our financial stability
slice of the pie. That's whatgives us our house and our
shelter and our clothes.
Meaning is found a lot inpurpose, in participation, in
understanding, in connection, inbelonging, in leisure when we're
(43:13):
kind of thinking aboutcreativity. Right? And so if we
don't situate wealth morebroadly, we're robbing
ourselves. It is a negativereturn on the investment of
life. Well, And what's the wholepoint?
My grandfather taught me we diewith $0. Right?
Wendy (43:30):
That's right.
Elizabeth (43:31):
And so if we situate wealth within meaning and
fulfillment, we really start tofind joy, not just in our
relationship to money, but inour relationship to wealth.
Wendy (43:39):
Beautiful. Okay. So I mean, and especially now, the
idea of focusing on meaning isreally important. Yeah. Because
it it can pull you out of fear.
Elizabeth (43:50):
Mhmm.
Wendy (43:50):
If you have something to strive for, I think. Just my 2¢
there. A 100%. Yeah.
Elizabeth (43:57):
And it helps us start to pave the way for what's next
to come. Exactly. I wish I couldfast forward right now, and I
can't. But I can deepen myexperience of meaning.
Wendy (44:08):
Exactly. My new favorite word is possibility. Yeah. And
that's what that's what a lot ofwhat you're talking about is in
is different ways of being inrelationship with money and now
with wealth, separating the twoand seeing what's possible for
yourself in this newrelationship.
Elizabeth (44:26):
Yeah. And let me say one last thing here, Wendy,
before we start to close or aswe start to close is that
intentionally, I wrote a bookthat had nothing to do with
investment strategies andnumbers. Right? I mean, I do
that all day long with clients.But intentionally, I wrote a
book called The Power of Enough,where we could have so many
different entry points intotalking about money and wealth
(44:47):
as an experience.
Because if that is thefoundation that we start from,
then we can go back to ourspreadsheets from a different
place of possibility to use yourword. And that is a very
different experience of engagingwith money than from a place of
like, oh my goodness. The worldis on fire. My life is on fire,
(45:08):
and I just feel so tight, and Ihave to figure out this money
situation. Right?
I had teachers Mhmm. Tell me, ifyou start to close, the magic
doesn't happen. So put yourspreadsheet down for a second.
Put your money worries down.Write them on a list if you need
to come back to them.
Take the journey of the power ofenough so that you can connect
to a different framework andstart to feel possibility, and
(45:31):
then come back to financialstability, slice of the pie, and
see what's different.
Wendy (45:35):
Love it. Alright. So besides this incredible book,
are there other ways in whichyou're you're working with
people? Do you offer workshopsor classes or courses online or
anything like that?
Elizabeth (45:47):
Yes. So they will come. Right? I have given myself
the permission to birth the bookin just birthing the book, but I
am building a lit I mean, so Ihave a ton of free resources on
my website. If you add your nameto my mailing list, I will start
to do more offerings probablytowards the end of the year once
I'm done with the book tour.
And also, you can follow me onInstagram. It's at Elizabeth
(46:09):
Husserl. I try to givemeaningful content, different
podcasts that I'm on anddifferent exercises and
thoughts. But connect with methat way, and and I will keep
people posted for when there'sother opportunities to work
because, you know, I'm committedto more people having deep,
meaningful conversations aroundmoney.
Wendy (46:28):
Great. And what is your website?
Elizabeth (46:30):
It's Elizabeth Husserl. So Elizabeth with a z,
then Husserl is husserlcom. Ifyou go to the resource page,
there's a ton of free resourcesfrom the book. It makes more
sense if you read the book andtake the journey but there's
things that you can start today.
Wendy (46:48):
Excellent. Okay. Elizabeth, thank you. You. Thank
you.
I really appreciate thisconversation very much.
Elizabeth (46:55):
Yeah. You're so welcome, Wendy. Thank you for
having me. Alright.
Wendy (47:00):
So I guess it's time to stop scapegoating money and to
take it out for an ice cream. Imean, well, money will pay for
the ice cream, so there's that.That was super meta. If you'd
like to transform your moneystory, please visit
elizabethhusserl.com using thelink in the show notes. Thanks
(47:23):
for listening.
I think you're top notch anddeserve an ice cream that your
new friend money will pay for.I'll be back in a few weeks with
a crazy informative episode witha woman who's written a
comprehensive book about ways wecan help our dog friends live
long and healthy lives usingherbal remedies. It's a really
(47:45):
cool conversation. I hope you'lljoin me for that. Until next
time.
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